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See,
I was going up north on Friday,
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and I saw headlights
3
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when I was about, well, maybe a quarter
or halfway down our driveway.
4
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You saw headlights
on that road down there?
5
00:00:26,927 --> 00:00:29,263
Yeah, that's what
I told the detectives, too, and stuff.
6
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The investigators.
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OK.
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And he thought I was full of shit.
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- Correct.
- Thursday.
10
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- Excuse me.
- Sure.
11
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After we filed our petition,
we got a call from a witness.
12
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He said, "I've been bothered
about something for a long time,
13
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and I felt like I should call you."
14
00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,397
So, I called him back and he said,
"I grew up in Manitowoc.
15
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I was in Barb Janda's class at school.
16
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Uh, worked there for many years,
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00:03:55,602 --> 00:03:58,138
knew a lot of the Manitowoc city police."
18
00:03:58,605 --> 00:04:02,209
Um, and he said, "I was a truck driver,
19
00:04:02,275 --> 00:04:06,747
and on November 3rd, I was driving on 147,
20
00:04:06,813 --> 00:04:09,249
and I saw Teresa Halbach's car."
21
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This is two days before they find the car
on the Avery property.
22
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He said, "I noticed it.
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I looked over, and it was nose-in,
it was pointed west,
24
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it was a teal green color,
and it was a RAV."
25
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So, then he said,
"The next day, on the 4th,
26
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I stop in Mishicot at the Cenex station."
27
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He said, "I walk up to the door
of the gas station,
28
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and on the right window,
29
00:04:48,388 --> 00:04:51,091
there's a poster, and it's got a picture
30
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that looks like a high school picture
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of Teresa Halbach,
32
00:04:55,095 --> 00:05:00,834
and under it, it's got the vehicle
I had seen down there by that tree."
33
00:05:02,969 --> 00:05:06,973
And he said, "So, I went inside,
got whatever I was getting,
34
00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,310
and in walks a Manitowoc officer.
35
00:05:11,178 --> 00:05:14,881
And I said to him,
'See that vehicle there?
36
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It's right down the road.'"
37
00:05:19,553 --> 00:05:22,956
So, I thought,
well, that's pretty big news
38
00:05:23,023 --> 00:05:26,726
because there's no police report
about it written up.
39
00:05:28,762 --> 00:05:33,266
So, this is another huge,
huge Brady violation.
40
00:05:37,237 --> 00:05:41,808
Then the witness said,
"I'm watching Making a Murderer."
41
00:05:42,442 --> 00:05:46,546
Back in January,
I watched "Making of a Murderer."
42
00:05:46,613 --> 00:05:52,853
And I watched the sheriff's deputy
call in a license plate number.
43
00:05:53,653 --> 00:05:55,893
Were you looking at these plates
when you called them in?
44
00:05:56,389 --> 00:05:57,389
No, sir.
45
00:05:59,793 --> 00:06:02,462
He said, "I just started shaking."
46
00:06:02,529 --> 00:06:08,602
And he said, "I realized that was the guy
that I had told about her car."
47
00:06:10,770 --> 00:06:14,608
This witness said,
"I was so rattled by it,
48
00:06:14,674 --> 00:06:18,044
I sent two texts to...
49
00:06:18,778 --> 00:06:20,080
Scott Tadych,
50
00:06:20,146 --> 00:06:21,281
because I knew him.
51
00:06:22,048 --> 00:06:23,450
And I said,
52
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'I just watched Making a Murderer.
53
00:06:25,051 --> 00:06:26,553
I just watched it,
54
00:06:26,620 --> 00:06:28,622
and I told that officer
55
00:06:28,688 --> 00:06:30,757
that I had just seen the car.
56
00:06:31,458 --> 00:06:33,627
You need to get Brendan's attorneys
57
00:06:33,693 --> 00:06:35,028
to call me.'"
58
00:06:37,130 --> 00:06:38,899
He didn't hear a word from Scott.
59
00:06:39,566 --> 00:06:41,501
So, then he sends another message back,
60
00:06:41,568 --> 00:06:46,406
and Scott says, "I'm not feeling so good.
I'll get back to you," or something.
61
00:06:49,876 --> 00:06:52,012
Nothing ever came about it, so...
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00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:55,582
give me a call back,
63
00:06:55,649 --> 00:06:59,252
and I would like to talk to you in person.
64
00:06:59,319 --> 00:07:01,588
Thank you very much. Bye.
65
00:07:04,658 --> 00:07:08,428
So, I went up there with my investigator.
66
00:07:08,495 --> 00:07:11,264
We got the witness
to come in from Michigan.
67
00:07:11,331 --> 00:07:13,667
We went to that property,
68
00:07:13,733 --> 00:07:17,671
and we realized, which he didn't realize,
69
00:07:17,737 --> 00:07:21,308
that Scott Tadych's trailer
70
00:07:21,374 --> 00:07:26,413
was three tenths of a mile from that spot,
on the other side of the road.
71
00:07:27,247 --> 00:07:30,050
So, that's interesting,
that it was that close to the property.
72
00:07:30,116 --> 00:07:31,818
Then we did more research,
73
00:07:32,452 --> 00:07:35,522
and we got the deed for the house
74
00:07:35,588 --> 00:07:38,625
that was close to where
the car was ditched.
75
00:07:38,692 --> 00:07:42,729
And guess who bought the house
fairly soon after the murder?
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00:07:42,796 --> 00:07:47,200
Scott Tadych,
who married Brendan Dassey's mother.
77
00:07:47,901 --> 00:07:53,306
So, they're residing right close
to where the car was ditched.
78
00:08:05,352 --> 00:08:09,389
It was the fire
that I remembered most of that day.
79
00:08:10,123 --> 00:08:11,634
Let's back up just a little bit.
80
00:08:11,658 --> 00:08:14,003
Could you tell the jury
what you did that afternoon, please?
81
00:08:14,027 --> 00:08:16,596
That morning, I was up at my mother's.
She had surgery.
82
00:08:17,063 --> 00:08:19,766
And then I left her
and went to the woods hunting.
83
00:08:19,833 --> 00:08:22,035
I went to my trailer,
then I went to the woods hunting.
84
00:08:22,102 --> 00:08:24,938
About what time was it
that you got out into the woods?
85
00:08:25,005 --> 00:08:26,373
About three o'clock.
86
00:08:27,974 --> 00:08:30,543
On your way to deer hunting...
87
00:08:31,244 --> 00:08:34,481
that would be just before 3:00 p.m...
88
00:08:34,547 --> 00:08:37,050
did you observe anybody on the roadway?
89
00:08:37,117 --> 00:08:40,920
Yes, I did.
I saw Bobby Dassey on Highway 147.
90
00:08:41,488 --> 00:08:43,556
I was going west and he was going east.
91
00:08:45,525 --> 00:08:49,596
What's the speed limit?
92
00:08:50,163 --> 00:08:51,731
- Speed limit on 147?
- Yeah.
93
00:08:51,798 --> 00:08:53,666
Fifty-five. Fifty-five.
94
00:08:53,733 --> 00:08:55,602
Fifty-five. Alright.
95
00:08:56,269 --> 00:08:58,705
So, you pass each other, and...
96
00:08:59,939 --> 00:09:03,410
you're later able to tell the police
that Bobby was going deer hunting.
97
00:09:03,943 --> 00:09:04,943
Yes.
98
00:09:05,545 --> 00:09:07,623
- How did you know that?
- How did I know that?
99
00:09:07,647 --> 00:09:10,683
It's because Bobby Dassey
was going to the trailer where I lived
100
00:09:10,750 --> 00:09:11,785
to hunt behind it.
101
00:09:13,086 --> 00:09:14,521
So, let me understand.
102
00:09:15,288 --> 00:09:19,092
He's gonna hunt deer
right behind your trailer?
103
00:09:19,726 --> 00:09:20,560
Yes.
104
00:09:20,627 --> 00:09:23,363
But you don't hunt deer
right behind your trailer.
105
00:09:23,430 --> 00:09:24,864
Occasionally, yes.
106
00:09:24,931 --> 00:09:28,101
So, you figured, since you saw him
driving east on Highway 147,
107
00:09:28,168 --> 00:09:29,469
he must be going hunting?
108
00:09:31,037 --> 00:09:32,037
Yes.
109
00:09:32,072 --> 00:09:37,544
Anybody else see you going west on 147
to go hunting, so far as you know?
110
00:09:37,610 --> 00:09:38,678
Bobby Dassey.
111
00:09:42,949 --> 00:09:46,786
We're gonna figure out
whether what we've got here
112
00:09:46,853 --> 00:09:51,357
is a murder that was committed
by one or two people,
113
00:09:51,424 --> 00:09:56,129
let's say, hypothetically,
Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych.
114
00:09:56,863 --> 00:10:01,468
A car moved a couple of times
and ditched close to Scott's house.
115
00:10:02,035 --> 00:10:07,107
Then we've got
another bit of illegality going on
116
00:10:07,173 --> 00:10:10,243
where the police find the car
117
00:10:10,910 --> 00:10:14,747
and decide to move it
onto the Avery property.
118
00:10:16,316 --> 00:10:19,219
That's the way the killers benefited
119
00:10:19,285 --> 00:10:22,622
from the cops wanting
to frame Steven Avery
120
00:10:22,689 --> 00:10:24,824
instead of wanting to solve it.
121
00:10:25,792 --> 00:10:29,395
And, really, that it's Colborn
is amazing to me.
122
00:10:30,029 --> 00:10:31,431
Unbelievable.
123
00:10:35,135 --> 00:10:38,304
- You've gone over Exhibit 138.
- Yes, sir.
124
00:10:38,371 --> 00:10:44,377
It describes you receiving
a telephone call in 1994 or 1995
125
00:10:44,711 --> 00:10:48,615
from someone who identified himself
as a detective, correct?
126
00:10:48,681 --> 00:10:49,681
Yes.
127
00:10:50,049 --> 00:10:53,586
The detective indicated
that there was a person in custody
128
00:10:53,653 --> 00:10:58,358
who had made a statement about
a Manitowoc County offense, correct?
129
00:10:58,424 --> 00:10:59,659
- Yes.
- OK.
130
00:10:59,726 --> 00:11:04,430
And what that person in custody had said
131
00:11:04,497 --> 00:11:08,268
was that he had committed an assault
in Manitowoc County
132
00:11:08,334 --> 00:11:10,503
and someone else was in jail for it.
133
00:11:10,570 --> 00:11:11,938
- Correct?
- Yes, sir.
134
00:11:12,005 --> 00:11:14,174
And that much you're pretty sure of?
135
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,976
Let's go
to Steven Avery's civil rights case.
136
00:11:17,377 --> 00:11:21,181
Colborn getting the call
about them having evidence,
137
00:11:21,247 --> 00:11:24,384
favorable evidence, exculpatory evidence,
138
00:11:24,450 --> 00:11:27,187
that Steven was not the rapist.
139
00:11:27,654 --> 00:11:29,322
What did they do with that evidence?
140
00:11:29,389 --> 00:11:32,525
They concealed it by not writing a report.
141
00:11:33,226 --> 00:11:37,263
What do we have now in our murder case
with Teresa Halbach?
142
00:11:37,897 --> 00:11:40,700
We have, once again, Andy Colborn...
143
00:11:42,235 --> 00:11:45,405
having a conversation
with an independent witness
144
00:11:45,471 --> 00:11:49,242
who has absolutely no reason to lie...
145
00:11:50,977 --> 00:11:53,413
and not writing up a report
146
00:11:53,479 --> 00:11:58,218
that this witness is telling him
Teresa Halbach's car
147
00:11:58,284 --> 00:12:01,654
is right down the road on 147
148
00:12:01,721 --> 00:12:03,790
by the East Twin River Bridge.
149
00:12:04,490 --> 00:12:07,093
Why was that not written up in a report?
150
00:12:07,727 --> 00:12:09,662
Because if it had been,
151
00:12:09,729 --> 00:12:14,000
Steven Avery could never have been
convicted of Teresa Halbach's murder.
152
00:12:17,070 --> 00:12:20,240
So, it's a huge, huge event
153
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having a Brady violation like this.
154
00:12:23,343 --> 00:12:28,181
And isn't it ironic? It's the same cop.
155
00:12:34,721 --> 00:12:37,790
Manitowoc County
Sheriff's Department. This is Lynn.
156
00:12:37,857 --> 00:12:39,359
- Lynn.
- Hi, Andy.
157
00:12:39,425 --> 00:12:42,462
Can you run
Sam-William-Henry-five-eighty-two?
158
00:12:42,528 --> 00:12:45,331
Um, OK,
it shows that she's a missing person,
159
00:12:45,398 --> 00:12:48,368
and it lists to Teresa Halbach.
160
00:12:48,434 --> 00:12:49,269
OK.
161
00:12:49,335 --> 00:12:51,070
That's what you're looking for, Andy?
162
00:12:51,137 --> 00:12:53,373
- '99 Toyota?
- Yep.
163
00:12:53,439 --> 00:12:56,175
- OK, thank you.
- You're so welcome. Bye-bye.
164
00:12:57,644 --> 00:12:59,545
So, what we believe happened
165
00:12:59,612 --> 00:13:03,516
is Colborn gets that information
from our witness on the 4th,
166
00:13:03,583 --> 00:13:06,085
and he's calling in
that license plate number.
167
00:13:07,820 --> 00:13:09,389
Then we discover,
168
00:13:10,223 --> 00:13:14,627
on Ryan Hillegas' phone records
on November 4th,
169
00:13:14,694 --> 00:13:18,965
there are a series of calls
that are made to him with no caller ID.
170
00:13:20,066 --> 00:13:22,935
Which, in talking to the phone company,
171
00:13:23,002 --> 00:13:25,471
they thought it was most likely
law enforcement.
172
00:13:26,339 --> 00:13:29,976
They're every couple of minutes,
and there's 22 of them.
173
00:13:31,010 --> 00:13:34,514
And they end right around 7:25,
174
00:13:34,881 --> 00:13:38,851
which is when Chuck Avery
calls Steven Avery
175
00:13:38,918 --> 00:13:44,991
and says that he sees headlights
down in the pit behind his house.
176
00:13:46,392 --> 00:13:50,129
We think what happened
is that Ryan Hillegas is there,
177
00:13:50,196 --> 00:13:52,899
possibly with law enforcement...
178
00:13:53,666 --> 00:13:55,335
when the car is moved,
179
00:13:55,401 --> 00:13:59,939
and he's dropping calls
as they're trying to direct him.
180
00:14:00,006 --> 00:14:03,076
Because that's what happened to us
in the quarry, the calls would drop.
181
00:14:04,610 --> 00:14:08,448
They had to have probable cause
to get on the property.
182
00:14:09,015 --> 00:14:14,921
So, it's clear it's all contrived
to have Ryan Hillegas involved
183
00:14:14,987 --> 00:14:16,356
and knowing where the car is,
184
00:14:16,422 --> 00:14:18,858
and letting Pam Sturm know
where the car is,
185
00:14:18,925 --> 00:14:21,828
and then, bingo, when they've got the car,
they've got probably cause.
186
00:14:21,894 --> 00:14:23,596
Then they've got
all those search warrants,
187
00:14:23,663 --> 00:14:28,034
and they can go into Steven's residence
six, seven times,
188
00:14:28,101 --> 00:14:29,535
the garage, all of that.
189
00:14:30,970 --> 00:14:32,905
It just opened the whole thing up.
190
00:14:56,896 --> 00:14:59,899
Hey, um, kind of a change of plans here.
191
00:14:59,966 --> 00:15:00,800
OK.
192
00:15:00,867 --> 00:15:04,303
The boss has got something
he wants us to do.
193
00:15:04,370 --> 00:15:05,370
OK.
194
00:15:05,538 --> 00:15:10,877
He wants us to go back over
and re-interview Avery again.
195
00:15:10,943 --> 00:15:13,312
And the search party is out there,
196
00:15:13,379 --> 00:15:16,749
and he wants us to ask them
if they would allow us
197
00:15:16,816 --> 00:15:18,651
to have the search party come
on the property
198
00:15:18,718 --> 00:15:19,952
and go through the junkyard.
199
00:15:20,019 --> 00:15:20,853
OK.
200
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,490
If it's OK with you, we'll meet
you over at your sheriff's department.
201
00:15:24,557 --> 00:15:25,391
OK.
202
00:15:25,458 --> 00:15:28,498
- If you don't mind helping us.
- That's fine. Stop over.
203
00:15:57,390 --> 00:16:02,662
I came upon this car that had
all these branches on the top of it
204
00:16:02,728 --> 00:16:04,163
and leaning against it,
205
00:16:04,230 --> 00:16:08,134
and there was an old hood of a car
leaning up against it,
206
00:16:08,201 --> 00:16:11,270
and it was kind of blueish-green.
207
00:16:11,938 --> 00:16:16,442
And I thought, "This is really strange.
This is really strange."
208
00:16:17,076 --> 00:16:20,713
And it looked like a little SUV
like I was looking for,
209
00:16:20,780 --> 00:16:23,883
a RAV4 Toyota SUV.
210
00:16:24,817 --> 00:16:27,920
And I went around
to the back of the vehicle,
211
00:16:27,987 --> 00:16:30,356
and, again, there were branches
leaning up against it,
212
00:16:30,423 --> 00:16:32,191
and I noticed that it said "RAV4."
213
00:16:32,258 --> 00:16:34,327
Well, my heart started going, you know?
214
00:16:34,393 --> 00:16:36,496
"Oh, my goodness. Maybe this is it."
215
00:16:37,697 --> 00:16:39,675
- Because...
- Let me stop you right there, Pam.
216
00:16:39,699 --> 00:16:40,699
Sorry.
217
00:16:41,834 --> 00:16:45,972
Did you attempt to verify
the identification of this vehicle?
218
00:16:46,038 --> 00:16:47,073
Yes.
219
00:16:47,139 --> 00:16:48,307
And how was that done?
220
00:16:48,374 --> 00:16:51,811
My daughter Nikole brought
her cell phone along,
221
00:16:52,645 --> 00:16:54,046
and we...
222
00:16:54,780 --> 00:16:56,048
I should back up.
223
00:16:56,115 --> 00:16:59,118
Ryan gave us a direct line
to Sheriff Pagel
224
00:16:59,185 --> 00:17:01,120
in case we found something.
225
00:17:02,522 --> 00:17:05,024
Denny specifically addresses
226
00:17:05,091 --> 00:17:07,760
establishing opportunity
227
00:17:08,528 --> 00:17:10,396
if you can establish
228
00:17:10,463 --> 00:17:12,465
that someone planted evidence.
229
00:17:13,099 --> 00:17:17,770
So, at this point,
Mr. Hillegas is still on our list.
230
00:17:20,306 --> 00:17:24,443
Investigator Fassbender documented
in a police report
231
00:17:24,510 --> 00:17:28,347
that Kelly Pitzen, Teresa's best friend,
232
00:17:28,414 --> 00:17:33,819
told him that Ryan Hillegas
had Teresa's day planner
233
00:17:33,886 --> 00:17:36,956
when they all met at Teresa's residence
on November 3rd.
234
00:17:37,857 --> 00:17:40,693
So, we started looking
at Teresa's day planner.
235
00:17:42,995 --> 00:17:46,899
It's got some writing on it
that caught our attention.
236
00:17:48,734 --> 00:17:51,404
So, we've got Teresa's new phone records,
237
00:17:51,470 --> 00:17:56,642
and we notice that Denise Coakley
has talked to Teresa
238
00:17:57,109 --> 00:18:01,747
at around 11:30 on the 31st
239
00:18:01,814 --> 00:18:04,717
and said, "I'd like to set up
an appointment with you
240
00:18:04,784 --> 00:18:08,654
on Tuesday, November the 1st at noon."
241
00:18:09,889 --> 00:18:14,260
And Denise said, "When I talked to Teresa,
242
00:18:14,327 --> 00:18:20,833
she said, 'Oh, I'm driving.
Let me pull over and jot this down.'"
243
00:18:22,535 --> 00:18:24,704
So, Teresa pulls over,
244
00:18:24,770 --> 00:18:30,743
and she jots down "Denise, noon"
on November 1st. OK?
245
00:18:30,810 --> 00:18:32,478
So, she's in her car.
246
00:18:33,145 --> 00:18:39,151
Then we discover
that Steve Speckman calls Teresa
247
00:18:39,218 --> 00:18:42,421
just about an hour
after Denise's call, OK?
248
00:18:42,488 --> 00:18:44,757
So, it's around 12:45.
249
00:18:44,824 --> 00:18:48,894
And he tells her that he's got
a couple of vehicles
250
00:18:48,961 --> 00:18:50,229
he wants her to photograph.
251
00:18:58,971 --> 00:19:04,243
So, Teresa jots down "Steve"
and "Sheboygan,"
252
00:19:04,310 --> 00:19:08,381
and then the vehicles
and his phone number,
253
00:19:08,447 --> 00:19:13,619
and he confirms
that she's driving in her car.
254
00:19:19,025 --> 00:19:22,128
It's now a quarter to one, OK?
255
00:19:22,194 --> 00:19:25,131
And so,
just reconstructing the time frames
256
00:19:25,197 --> 00:19:27,933
in which she arrived
at her next appointments,
257
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:33,105
there isn't time for her to have gone
all the way back to her house
258
00:19:33,172 --> 00:19:35,775
with the day planner,
left it at her house,
259
00:19:35,841 --> 00:19:37,476
and then left again.
260
00:19:37,543 --> 00:19:40,780
It's... The schedule's too tight
for her to arrive at Schmitz.
261
00:19:44,684 --> 00:19:48,320
Scott Bloedorn said
that he found the day planner
262
00:19:48,387 --> 00:19:50,956
at Teresa Halbach's residence
263
00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:54,927
and that it was from the Outlook program
on the computer.
264
00:19:56,429 --> 00:20:01,434
And it was, before Teresa wrote on it
when she was out on the road
265
00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:04,170
talking to Denise Coakley and Speckman,
266
00:20:04,236 --> 00:20:05,705
and drove to Schmitz.
267
00:20:08,207 --> 00:20:10,509
So, she's at the Schmitz house,
268
00:20:10,576 --> 00:20:14,313
and then she goes to the Zipperers',
and then she goes on to the Averys'.
269
00:20:16,148 --> 00:20:19,952
Her day planner is in the car with her
270
00:20:20,019 --> 00:20:22,488
because she never goes back home.
271
00:20:23,089 --> 00:20:24,390
There isn't time.
272
00:20:27,026 --> 00:20:31,363
So, how does Ryan Hillegas
273
00:20:32,231 --> 00:20:34,834
get this piece of paper,
274
00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:41,173
unless he has access to Teresa's car
after she's been to the Averys'?
275
00:20:43,275 --> 00:20:48,414
So, if you talk about a Denny link
to the crime,
276
00:20:48,481 --> 00:20:52,718
when you've got a document
that you can show
277
00:20:52,785 --> 00:20:58,324
was in the victim's car
at the time of the murder
278
00:20:58,390 --> 00:21:01,827
and is in the possession of a witness,
279
00:21:02,361 --> 00:21:05,898
that's about as good a link
as you could get to the crime.
280
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:19,612
That's why he won't talk to us.
We've been back to his place twice, OK?
281
00:21:19,912 --> 00:21:23,582
He's not gonna talk because he's involved,
282
00:21:24,350 --> 00:21:26,452
most likely, in moving the car.
283
00:21:26,519 --> 00:21:27,753
And obstruction.
284
00:21:50,676 --> 00:21:52,778
How much room can I get and when?
285
00:21:52,845 --> 00:21:55,414
Right now?
884 is available until 11:00.
286
00:21:55,481 --> 00:21:56,482
Oh, that's good.
287
00:21:56,549 --> 00:21:58,284
And you want 884?
288
00:21:58,884 --> 00:22:01,084
Yes, then I'll come back...
What do you think, at 11:00?
289
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:05,991
At 11:00, I would
give you 836 all the way until 2:30.
290
00:22:06,058 --> 00:22:07,058
Perfect.
291
00:22:11,497 --> 00:22:15,134
I will prepare for this argument
the same way I prepared for the last one:
292
00:22:15,601 --> 00:22:19,438
a lot of research, a lot of studying,
and a lot of practice rounds,
293
00:22:19,505 --> 00:22:21,707
including practice rounds
that we've arranged
294
00:22:21,774 --> 00:22:24,243
with our students acting as the judges,
295
00:22:24,310 --> 00:22:26,412
and practice rounds that we've arranged
296
00:22:26,478 --> 00:22:29,682
with national experts
in these areas of the law
297
00:22:29,748 --> 00:22:31,116
acting as judges.
298
00:22:34,887 --> 00:22:38,157
And we are seeking
the guidance of lawyers
299
00:22:38,224 --> 00:22:40,492
who are very experienced
in the 7th Circuit,
300
00:22:40,559 --> 00:22:43,529
including former clerks
of the 7th Circuit,
301
00:22:43,596 --> 00:22:49,401
to get as close of a sense
of the mindset of the judges
302
00:22:49,468 --> 00:22:51,337
that Laura is going to face.
303
00:22:57,710 --> 00:23:02,214
It's the closest thing you can get
to a Supreme Court argument,
304
00:23:02,281 --> 00:23:06,185
in the sense that
there are nine Supreme Court justices.
305
00:23:06,252 --> 00:23:09,421
And here there will be
seven 7th Circuit judges.
306
00:23:11,657 --> 00:23:16,428
So, as someone who is arguing
before the en banc panel,
307
00:23:16,495 --> 00:23:17,930
it's more challenging.
308
00:23:19,064 --> 00:23:22,668
You know, you have to rotate your head
more from left to right,
309
00:23:22,735 --> 00:23:27,640
and you have to field questions
from a larger group of justices.
310
00:23:28,474 --> 00:23:32,711
In preparing for the argument,
it's also harder to do
311
00:23:32,778 --> 00:23:37,883
because you have to try to read
and understand the decisions
312
00:23:37,950 --> 00:23:39,952
of each one of these judges
313
00:23:40,019 --> 00:23:44,156
and anticipate the kinds of questions
that they may ask.
314
00:23:52,097 --> 00:23:55,935
We all understand that the role
of an appeals court is to get it right,
315
00:23:56,001 --> 00:23:57,536
and if it gets it wrong,
316
00:23:58,037 --> 00:24:00,839
then it will be fixed down the road
in the system.
317
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,275
That's the belief
that we all have in the system.
318
00:24:03,943 --> 00:24:05,244
If some court gets it wrong,
319
00:24:05,311 --> 00:24:07,947
another court is gonna come along
and set it right.
320
00:24:08,614 --> 00:24:12,051
And that's the shocking thing about AEDPA.
321
00:24:13,385 --> 00:24:15,788
Federal courts can only grant relief
322
00:24:15,854 --> 00:24:18,657
if a state court was unreasonably wrong,
323
00:24:18,724 --> 00:24:20,893
was so wrong that no other judge,
324
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,397
no other fair-minded judge,
could possibly agree with the state court.
325
00:24:25,764 --> 00:24:27,533
That's an incredibly high bar.
326
00:24:29,969 --> 00:24:32,171
Brendan deserves justice,
327
00:24:32,938 --> 00:24:37,109
and he didn't get it in the state courts
of Wisconsin.
328
00:24:37,910 --> 00:24:40,379
I hope we're able
to deliver justice to him.
329
00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:46,118
Because if we're not,
and I don't want to think this...
330
00:24:48,454 --> 00:24:50,856
I won't be alive
when Brendan gets out of prison.
331
00:24:50,923 --> 00:24:54,560
It's very unlikely I'll be alive
when Brendan gets out of prison.
332
00:24:55,194 --> 00:24:57,396
If I am, I'll be in my late eighties,
333
00:24:58,097 --> 00:25:02,534
and, um, I don't want to think about that.
334
00:25:06,205 --> 00:25:09,375
We need to get to four votes
335
00:25:09,441 --> 00:25:14,580
to keep Judge Duffin's opinion in place.
336
00:25:15,681 --> 00:25:17,583
And the question is...
337
00:25:18,884 --> 00:25:23,856
can we win the hearts and minds
of enough other judges
338
00:25:24,323 --> 00:25:25,858
in order to prevail?
339
00:25:33,699 --> 00:25:36,235
Oral argument is waived
340
00:25:36,301 --> 00:25:40,339
if the court has no questions
after reading your brief.
341
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,475
So, if you've got oral arguments,
342
00:25:43,542 --> 00:25:48,113
there are really serious questions
that the court wants answered.
343
00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:57,923
The key to winning any case
is your grasp of the facts.
344
00:25:59,591 --> 00:26:06,065
And that's what will shift a judge
to your position,
345
00:26:06,131 --> 00:26:10,035
if it was something
they just did not realize.
346
00:26:12,104 --> 00:26:14,606
And a lot of attorneys, you know,
347
00:26:14,673 --> 00:26:16,842
they get so bogged down in the case law.
348
00:26:17,843 --> 00:26:19,711
That's not where the challenge is.
349
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,083
The challenge
is how you present the story.
350
00:26:33,125 --> 00:26:37,096
We were here in February when
both sides argued to the three-judge panel
351
00:26:37,162 --> 00:26:39,498
which eventually
denied the State's request
352
00:26:39,565 --> 00:26:41,800
to reverse Brendan Dassey's
overturned conviction.
353
00:26:41,867 --> 00:26:43,535
Now, much like back in February,
354
00:26:43,602 --> 00:26:46,271
both sides will be given
a set amount of time, 30 minutes,
355
00:26:46,338 --> 00:26:47,639
to argue their case.
356
00:26:47,706 --> 00:26:50,676
There is no timeline, however,
on when a decision will be made.
357
00:26:50,742 --> 00:26:52,077
For now, we're live in Chicago.
358
00:26:52,144 --> 00:26:54,046
Emily Metasic, Action 2 News.
359
00:26:58,217 --> 00:27:02,020
Directions to 55 East Monroe, Chicago.
360
00:27:09,194 --> 00:27:11,630
It's an hour and ten minutes.
Twenty-two miles.
361
00:27:11,697 --> 00:27:12,697
Wow.
362
00:27:13,599 --> 00:27:14,599
Crazy.
363
00:27:18,504 --> 00:27:21,473
You know, I wish Brendan could be here.
364
00:27:22,474 --> 00:27:24,419
It would be nice
if they brought him down.
365
00:27:24,443 --> 00:27:25,443
Yeah.
366
00:27:28,714 --> 00:27:31,316
Then the judges could actually see...
367
00:27:32,618 --> 00:27:37,356
see him and, you know,
judge by himself, you know?
368
00:27:44,296 --> 00:27:46,665
The 7th Circuit Court of Appeals
369
00:27:46,732 --> 00:27:50,502
will hear arguments
starting at ten o'clock this morning.
370
00:27:50,569 --> 00:27:54,540
Their decision could mean freedom
for Brendan Dassey.
371
00:28:37,015 --> 00:28:38,850
So, how far do we gotta go yet?
372
00:28:39,718 --> 00:28:42,087
We must be getting close
to Downtown now.
373
00:28:42,387 --> 00:28:43,555
Seven miles.
374
00:28:44,423 --> 00:28:45,591
Thirty-four minutes.
375
00:28:46,225 --> 00:28:48,694
We're more than halfway there.
That's good.
376
00:28:49,661 --> 00:28:52,064
Well, is there a highway to jump on
right here or something?
377
00:28:53,265 --> 00:28:54,265
No.
378
00:28:55,867 --> 00:28:58,012
Brendan's gonna get out
before we get to court.
379
00:28:58,036 --> 00:28:59,036
Yeah.
380
00:29:04,042 --> 00:29:06,111
He's gonna beat us home.
How about that?
381
00:29:06,178 --> 00:29:07,246
He probably would.
382
00:29:23,395 --> 00:29:26,865
We're about to go inside
and check out the proceedings.
383
00:29:26,932 --> 00:29:29,268
We've been following
the Brendan Dassey case for forever.
384
00:29:29,334 --> 00:29:32,271
I've been covering it
for about a year now.
385
00:29:32,337 --> 00:29:33,905
I remember being down in Portage,
386
00:29:33,972 --> 00:29:36,208
waiting to see if Dassey
got out of prison.
387
00:29:36,275 --> 00:29:39,444
He didn't. The State appealed.
And that has led us to here.
388
00:30:52,551 --> 00:30:55,721
We are now ready
to hear our case for this morning.
389
00:30:56,288 --> 00:30:58,924
Uh, good morning,
and may it please the court.
390
00:30:58,990 --> 00:31:04,629
Brendan Dassey confessed
because his guilt became unbearable.
391
00:31:04,696 --> 00:31:09,368
What he and Avery did to Teresa
was horrific.
392
00:31:10,068 --> 00:31:12,704
What happened to Teresa
was certainly horrific.
393
00:31:12,771 --> 00:31:18,310
No one questions the terrible nature
of this murder. How could you?
394
00:31:18,377 --> 00:31:20,712
But whether Mr. Dassey
was responsible for it
395
00:31:20,779 --> 00:31:23,482
or whether he just went
after the fire was lit
396
00:31:23,548 --> 00:31:25,851
is a serious question.
397
00:31:26,385 --> 00:31:27,219
Absolutely.
398
00:31:27,285 --> 00:31:30,856
The investigators just nudged
the confession out of Dassey.
399
00:31:30,922 --> 00:31:33,592
- They didn't nudge. Really?
- Oh, my.
400
00:31:33,692 --> 00:31:36,294
Absolutely. They took
numerous precautions to protect...
401
00:31:36,361 --> 00:31:38,430
What was Mr. Dassey's IQ?
402
00:31:38,497 --> 00:31:42,734
Uh, his most recent IQ test
was 83 or 81 at trial.
403
00:31:42,801 --> 00:31:46,405
And he was 16 when
he was being questioned by the officers?
404
00:31:46,471 --> 00:31:48,507
That's right. He was 16 years old.
405
00:31:48,907 --> 00:31:51,276
The Court of Appeals
mentioned Dassey's age,
406
00:31:51,343 --> 00:31:54,379
they mentioned Dassey's
mental capabilities,
407
00:31:54,446 --> 00:31:56,047
they quoted the test...
408
00:31:56,114 --> 00:31:59,418
Well, if it's true
that a state court analysis
409
00:31:59,484 --> 00:32:01,219
can be that cursory
410
00:32:01,286 --> 00:32:07,893
or, you know, give no reason at all
with just mentioning his age...
411
00:32:07,959 --> 00:32:11,363
It was basing its finding
on the trial court's opinion,
412
00:32:11,430 --> 00:32:13,165
and the trial court
was much more thorough.
413
00:32:13,231 --> 00:32:15,376
It went through all of
the relevant factors thoroughly.
414
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,871
So, this idea that it failed to actually
consider the totality of the circumstances
415
00:32:19,938 --> 00:32:21,940
is outlandish, quite frankly.
416
00:32:22,007 --> 00:32:23,975
No, it's not outlandish at all.
417
00:32:24,042 --> 00:32:26,645
Most people who commit murder,
418
00:32:26,711 --> 00:32:29,915
dismemberment,
and destruction of the corpse
419
00:32:29,981 --> 00:32:32,150
don't think they're just
gonna go back to school
420
00:32:32,217 --> 00:32:34,286
and turn in their sixth-period project.
421
00:32:34,820 --> 00:32:38,390
Uh, most people,
if they saw what Dassey saw,
422
00:32:38,457 --> 00:32:39,958
wouldn't have participated.
423
00:32:40,025 --> 00:32:42,360
Well, but I'm just saying,
doesn't that tell you
424
00:32:42,427 --> 00:32:46,031
that he is just a person
who doesn't get it?
425
00:32:46,097 --> 00:32:48,700
I think those statements show, at most,
426
00:32:48,767 --> 00:32:51,570
that Dassey doesn't understand
how awful it is
427
00:32:51,636 --> 00:32:52,938
to rape and murder someone.
428
00:32:53,004 --> 00:32:54,439
Can you give me a fact
429
00:32:54,506 --> 00:32:56,575
that they did not feed him?
430
00:32:56,641 --> 00:32:59,611
I think the most telling examples
are his memories of Teresa.
431
00:32:59,678 --> 00:33:01,880
He remembers her screaming, "Help me,"
432
00:33:01,947 --> 00:33:04,950
and how she looked,
naked and chained up to the bed.
433
00:33:05,383 --> 00:33:07,018
But they feed him that.
434
00:33:07,085 --> 00:33:08,720
That's not something that...
435
00:33:08,787 --> 00:33:11,690
They didn't feed him the fact
that she was handcuffed to the bed.
436
00:33:12,190 --> 00:33:14,960
But there's no evidence
that she was, either. There's no...
437
00:33:15,026 --> 00:33:16,704
They found handcuffs
in the bedroom.
438
00:33:16,728 --> 00:33:18,063
But they didn't...
439
00:33:18,430 --> 00:33:23,101
Does that mean...
Does that lead to this?
440
00:33:23,168 --> 00:33:25,971
The question of whether
there was enough evidence
441
00:33:26,037 --> 00:33:27,472
is a question for the jury.
442
00:33:27,539 --> 00:33:30,742
Habeas is not a license
for federal courts to play backup jury.
443
00:33:30,809 --> 00:33:33,211
When we try
to evaluate if it was voluntary,
444
00:33:33,278 --> 00:33:37,716
we can look at the corroborating
circumstances around it, can't we?
445
00:33:37,782 --> 00:33:39,102
I don't think you can, no.
446
00:33:39,150 --> 00:33:40,719
The Supreme Court has consistently said
447
00:33:40,785 --> 00:33:43,154
that reliability
is a question for the jury.
448
00:33:43,221 --> 00:33:45,323
It's not something you consider
on voluntariness.
449
00:33:45,724 --> 00:33:48,324
I want to go back to the memories
of Teresa that I was mentioning,
450
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,896
because I think
that's one of the primary evidences
451
00:33:50,962 --> 00:33:54,533
that his confession was voluntary,
the way he volunteered those details.
452
00:33:54,599 --> 00:33:57,068
He remembered her
desperately trying to move away
453
00:33:57,135 --> 00:33:58,870
as Avery came at her with a knife.
454
00:33:58,937 --> 00:34:02,908
He remembers her breathing
after Avery stabbed her in the stomach,
455
00:34:02,974 --> 00:34:06,444
and that she's still struggling to breathe
after he cut her throat.
456
00:34:06,511 --> 00:34:09,381
And he remembered the awful smell
as her body burned.
457
00:34:09,848 --> 00:34:12,417
None of those memories
were suggested to him.
458
00:34:12,484 --> 00:34:14,786
They were very raw
and they were very real,
459
00:34:14,853 --> 00:34:16,655
and Dassey needed to get them out.
460
00:34:17,055 --> 00:34:19,991
Another main piece of evidence
that shows the voluntariness
461
00:34:20,058 --> 00:34:23,061
is the way he resisted the officers
numerous times...
462
00:34:23,128 --> 00:34:24,229
He's guessing.
463
00:34:24,296 --> 00:34:26,097
I mean, you see this as resistance.
464
00:34:26,164 --> 00:34:28,233
I see this as him, sort of, casting about.
465
00:34:28,300 --> 00:34:32,203
You see these long delays.
He's all over the map.
466
00:34:32,270 --> 00:34:34,773
And you can pick a sentence here
and a sentence there
467
00:34:34,839 --> 00:34:38,910
and knit together a confession,
but it's not what really happened.
468
00:34:38,977 --> 00:34:42,213
- True. He changes some details...
- Changes important details.
469
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,084
But that's exactly what you would
expect for a traumatic memory like this...
470
00:34:46,151 --> 00:34:49,321
It's also what you expect
from somebody who was trying to say
471
00:34:49,387 --> 00:34:51,089
what the officers want to hear.
472
00:34:52,023 --> 00:34:55,827
The investigators made my skin crawl
watching this video,
473
00:34:55,894 --> 00:35:01,666
this lulling behavior that they conveyed
which was so dishonest.
474
00:35:01,733 --> 00:35:03,301
So dishonest.
475
00:35:03,368 --> 00:35:05,913
There was some minor deception,
to be sure, but the case...
476
00:35:05,937 --> 00:35:08,416
- Major deception.
- No, I don't think it was major.
477
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,842
A lot of the things
that the investigators said were true.
478
00:35:10,909 --> 00:35:14,946
So, their statements,
"We'll go to bat for you," for example.
479
00:35:15,013 --> 00:35:16,493
They did, in fact, go to bat for him.
480
00:35:16,548 --> 00:35:20,452
If he had stuck with
his story and testified against Avery,
481
00:35:20,518 --> 00:35:21,786
I suspect they would have.
482
00:35:21,853 --> 00:35:23,321
That's exactly right.
483
00:35:24,823 --> 00:35:27,492
So, Ms. Nirider,
484
00:35:27,559 --> 00:35:31,096
of course, your big issue
is AEDPA deference.
485
00:35:32,530 --> 00:35:34,165
Even if there's a lot
486
00:35:34,232 --> 00:35:38,370
that looks like any rational person
might have said this was a limited person,
487
00:35:38,436 --> 00:35:39,904
the state courts found otherwise.
488
00:35:39,971 --> 00:35:41,573
What do we do about that?
489
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,840
It did, Your Honor,
and may it please the court.
490
00:35:44,209 --> 00:35:48,380
Deference, by definition,
does not preclude relief.
491
00:35:48,446 --> 00:35:50,849
That is what we know
from the Supreme Court.
492
00:35:50,915 --> 00:35:55,687
Relief is reserved for cases where
the application of clearly established law
493
00:35:55,754 --> 00:35:58,456
has been unreasonably misapplied
in the state courts,
494
00:35:58,523 --> 00:36:02,160
and that's precisely what we see here.
495
00:36:02,227 --> 00:36:05,163
Would you say
that the police here used tactics
496
00:36:05,230 --> 00:36:09,267
"so offensive
to a civilized system of justice
497
00:36:09,334 --> 00:36:11,202
that they must be condemned
498
00:36:11,269 --> 00:36:13,638
under the due process clause
of the 14th Amendment"?
499
00:36:13,705 --> 00:36:16,183
- I would, Your Honor.
- And what are those?
500
00:36:16,207 --> 00:36:22,080
Those tactics include issuing
a promise of leniency to Brendan Dassey.
501
00:36:22,147 --> 00:36:24,149
There was no promise of leniency.
502
00:36:24,215 --> 00:36:26,985
- Not when judged...
- Vague assurances at best.
503
00:36:27,052 --> 00:36:29,487
Not when judged
by the standard of an adult.
504
00:36:29,554 --> 00:36:32,090
Even with
an intellectually challenged 16-year-old,
505
00:36:32,157 --> 00:36:36,227
there has to be a concrete promise,
fraudulent promise, of leniency
506
00:36:36,294 --> 00:36:38,763
for it to bear on the voluntariness
of the confession.
507
00:36:38,830 --> 00:36:41,108
- Miller...
- Vague assurances are not enough.
508
00:36:41,132 --> 00:36:43,568
We accept
that he has a lower IQ. That's it?
509
00:36:43,635 --> 00:36:48,606
Anybody that has an IQ of that level
can't be questioned the way he was?
510
00:36:48,673 --> 00:36:51,676
Certainly not, Your Honor.
This is a unique fact case...
511
00:36:51,743 --> 00:36:54,012
This was not an aggressive questioning.
512
00:36:54,079 --> 00:36:56,581
It is a case of psychological coercion.
513
00:36:56,648 --> 00:36:58,083
There was a promise of leniency...
514
00:36:58,149 --> 00:37:01,553
In fact, there's case law
that says they can bluff.
515
00:37:01,619 --> 00:37:03,254
They can bluff, Your Honor.
516
00:37:03,321 --> 00:37:07,025
But they cannot so distort
his rational will that he was incapable...
517
00:37:07,092 --> 00:37:08,727
That's because of his IQ?
518
00:37:08,793 --> 00:37:11,429
And his impairments
and his disabilities and his age.
519
00:37:11,496 --> 00:37:12,530
Yes, Your Honor.
520
00:37:12,597 --> 00:37:17,035
And the fact that
he is 95 percent more suggestible
521
00:37:17,368 --> 00:37:19,070
than the population.
522
00:37:19,137 --> 00:37:22,640
I think this is a totality point
that you're making.
523
00:37:22,974 --> 00:37:24,642
The Supreme Court has told us
524
00:37:24,709 --> 00:37:28,813
not to get too, if you will,
"siloed" in our thinking about this,
525
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,550
if Brendan is of lower intelligence,
or that he's this or he's that.
526
00:37:32,617 --> 00:37:33,918
He's a package.
527
00:37:34,586 --> 00:37:36,654
So, Miss Nirider, if we were to affirm
528
00:37:36,721 --> 00:37:39,257
the grant of habeas relief in this case,
529
00:37:39,324 --> 00:37:41,126
which you've described as unique,
530
00:37:41,192 --> 00:37:45,697
what practical advice
would you give to police
531
00:37:45,764 --> 00:37:48,533
about what is and is not permissible
532
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:53,438
in interrogating a high school boy
who's not very quick?
533
00:37:53,972 --> 00:37:55,907
Taking this case as an example,
534
00:37:55,974 --> 00:38:00,044
these interrogators had at least some
reason to believe he might be limited.
535
00:38:00,111 --> 00:38:03,081
He wasn't able
to spell "agent" or "detective"...
536
00:38:03,148 --> 00:38:04,783
So, what should they do?
537
00:38:04,849 --> 00:38:05,784
So, what should they do?
538
00:38:05,850 --> 00:38:08,419
- What can they do to solve the crime?
- Given that...
539
00:38:08,486 --> 00:38:12,390
They may still question him.
There's no doubt about that.
540
00:38:12,457 --> 00:38:14,225
Can they bluff?
541
00:38:14,292 --> 00:38:17,028
They may,
as long as it doesn't overbear his will.
542
00:38:17,095 --> 00:38:21,599
They should never say things like,
"I'm a cop, but I'm not right now."
543
00:38:21,666 --> 00:38:23,701
You're creating new law now.
544
00:38:23,768 --> 00:38:28,339
There is no case that says that,
and we're here on 2254 review.
545
00:38:28,406 --> 00:38:32,076
A federal court cannot create new law
on habeas review.
546
00:38:32,143 --> 00:38:34,712
And that's what you're asking for
in this case.
547
00:38:34,779 --> 00:38:38,449
It's just flatly impermissible
under all the Supreme Court's precedents.
548
00:38:38,516 --> 00:38:41,085
Your Honor, I am not asking
for the creation of new law.
549
00:38:41,152 --> 00:38:43,655
I am asking for this court
to apply decades-old law.
550
00:38:43,721 --> 00:38:47,559
You're identifying criteria
and things that the cops cannot do.
551
00:38:47,625 --> 00:38:50,428
There is no case that says
they cannot do those things.
552
00:38:50,495 --> 00:38:51,535
I am not asking...
553
00:38:51,563 --> 00:38:53,731
You're asking us
to use this case to establish
554
00:38:53,798 --> 00:38:56,634
that new benchmark for investigators
555
00:38:56,701 --> 00:38:59,270
in interrogating juveniles.
556
00:38:59,337 --> 00:39:01,005
There is no case law to support that.
557
00:39:01,072 --> 00:39:05,210
Under established law, under 2254,
you must lose.
558
00:39:06,311 --> 00:39:11,583
The motive of the police
was to get a second, uh, killer?
559
00:39:11,950 --> 00:39:13,151
I'm sorry, Your Honor?
560
00:39:13,218 --> 00:39:15,453
What was the motive
of the police in doing this?
561
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:17,856
To get a second killer?
562
00:39:18,456 --> 00:39:20,758
Your Honor,
the test does not direct us...
563
00:39:20,825 --> 00:39:23,785
No, I know that's not the test.
That's the question I'm asking you.
564
00:39:24,562 --> 00:39:27,899
The record doesn't speak
to the motive of the police in this case.
565
00:39:27,966 --> 00:39:30,802
- You're arguing their motive.
- I am not, Your Honor.
566
00:39:30,869 --> 00:39:33,605
In fact, the district court here,
in granting relief,
567
00:39:33,671 --> 00:39:37,442
pointed out that the police may well
have simply failed to appreciate
568
00:39:37,508 --> 00:39:40,712
the way in which their words landed
on Brendan Dassey.
569
00:39:40,778 --> 00:39:44,549
But it does not preclude relief under
the principles of Miller versus Fenton.
570
00:39:44,616 --> 00:39:47,452
So, they needed two, uh...
killers?
571
00:39:48,286 --> 00:39:50,188
No, Your Honor.
They needed the truth.
572
00:39:50,255 --> 00:39:51,956
But the problem with this interrogation
573
00:39:52,023 --> 00:39:54,893
is that the way in which they pressured
and pursued Brendan Dassey
574
00:39:54,959 --> 00:39:58,529
was in direct contravention
of the seeking of the truth.
575
00:39:58,596 --> 00:40:01,132
When were the shell casings found?
576
00:40:01,199 --> 00:40:03,001
In November of 2005.
577
00:40:03,635 --> 00:40:04,669
Hmm.
578
00:40:05,436 --> 00:40:06,504
In the garage?
579
00:40:06,571 --> 00:40:08,239
In the garage, Your Honor.
580
00:40:09,374 --> 00:40:12,486
I think you're about to run out
of time. If you would like to wrap up...
581
00:40:12,510 --> 00:40:14,545
Alright,
if there are no further questions,
582
00:40:14,612 --> 00:40:17,782
I would ask this court to affirm the
district court's grant of habeas relief.
583
00:40:17,849 --> 00:40:19,784
Alright, thank you very much.
584
00:40:20,118 --> 00:40:21,185
Mr. Berg?
585
00:40:21,252 --> 00:40:22,921
We're on habeas here.
586
00:40:22,987 --> 00:40:26,357
This is now the sixth time that a court
has reviewed this case in a decade.
587
00:40:26,424 --> 00:40:29,594
And a number of them have found
that there's a real problem with this.
588
00:40:29,661 --> 00:40:32,163
You've got the district court,
magistrate judge,
589
00:40:32,730 --> 00:40:34,899
and you've got the panel in this case.
590
00:40:34,966 --> 00:40:37,201
So, I don't know that this is a slam dunk.
591
00:40:37,268 --> 00:40:39,437
In all of the filings,
in all of the opinions,
592
00:40:39,504 --> 00:40:41,739
you will not find a single case, not one,
593
00:40:41,806 --> 00:40:44,008
not from the Supreme Court,
not from a federal court,
594
00:40:44,075 --> 00:40:45,877
not from a state court,
not on de novo review,
595
00:40:45,944 --> 00:40:46,811
not on habeas review,
596
00:40:46,878 --> 00:40:51,115
you will not find one case
finding a confession involuntary
597
00:40:51,182 --> 00:40:53,284
in circumstances similar to this.
598
00:40:53,351 --> 00:40:57,388
Courts have consistently held
that minor lies about what they know
599
00:40:57,455 --> 00:40:58,489
is not coercive.
600
00:40:58,556 --> 00:41:01,125
They've held that vague assurances
are not coercive.
601
00:41:01,192 --> 00:41:02,927
Fatherly manner is not coercive.
602
00:41:02,994 --> 00:41:07,231
All of that may be true,
but the question is the recipient.
603
00:41:07,298 --> 00:41:11,135
If I were to say things
to my four-year-old grandson,
604
00:41:11,202 --> 00:41:13,738
you know, he's not gonna understand it
the way you would,
605
00:41:13,805 --> 00:41:17,241
or at least I hope
that maybe you've moved a bit beyond.
606
00:41:17,308 --> 00:41:19,577
You say things to an adult
607
00:41:19,644 --> 00:41:22,680
that are not the same as you would
say things to a younger person.
608
00:41:22,747 --> 00:41:23,948
Absolutely.
609
00:41:24,015 --> 00:41:25,984
Alright, I see your yellow,
610
00:41:26,050 --> 00:41:28,186
and now your red piece of paper,
611
00:41:28,252 --> 00:41:31,389
so if you'd like to wrap up
in one sentence, you may do so.
612
00:41:31,456 --> 00:41:33,224
The whole point of AEDPA
613
00:41:33,291 --> 00:41:38,496
is to prevent the second-guessing
of juries and state courts a decade later.
614
00:41:39,097 --> 00:41:42,600
The district court and the panel majority
did exactly that.
615
00:41:43,201 --> 00:41:44,201
Please reverse.
616
00:41:51,709 --> 00:41:53,111
Here's what's going on.
617
00:41:53,177 --> 00:41:56,114
So, a lot of cameras,
a lot of interest in this case.
618
00:42:45,163 --> 00:42:49,033
I think I heard the language
"made my skin crawl"
619
00:42:49,100 --> 00:42:52,070
from one of the judges today
in looking at that video.
620
00:42:52,136 --> 00:42:53,571
Um, talk about that.
621
00:42:54,372 --> 00:42:57,341
I've seen the videos,
and what makes my skin crawl
622
00:42:57,408 --> 00:43:00,344
is knowing the things that happened
to Teresa Halbach,
623
00:43:00,411 --> 00:43:01,779
um, not...
624
00:43:02,346 --> 00:43:08,186
not that this young man is uncomfortable
talking about it and reliving it.
625
00:43:08,586 --> 00:43:10,855
Teresa's family relives this every day.
626
00:43:11,823 --> 00:43:14,258
Spell your first and last name
and pronounce it.
627
00:43:14,325 --> 00:43:16,627
Brad Schimel. S-C-H-I-M-E-L.
628
00:43:16,694 --> 00:43:18,229
- Thank you.
- Thank you.
629
00:43:18,296 --> 00:43:19,339
- Thank you.
- Alright.
630
00:43:19,363 --> 00:43:20,363
Thank you.
631
00:43:36,981 --> 00:43:38,616
Brad, can I get an interview?
632
00:43:38,683 --> 00:43:40,727
I don't know if you did them.
I was outside. So, if...
633
00:43:40,751 --> 00:43:41,853
We did, yeah.
634
00:43:41,919 --> 00:43:43,254
- Did you?
- We did.
635
00:43:44,021 --> 00:43:45,756
- We just did our...
- I can do it as we go.
636
00:43:45,823 --> 00:43:47,825
We just did our press gaggle already.
637
00:43:49,026 --> 00:43:51,729
May I get one quick comment?
I'm from Green Bay.
638
00:43:51,796 --> 00:43:53,540
- Yeah.
- I want to do like...
639
00:43:53,564 --> 00:43:56,284
- Let's get across the street.
- Yeah, a balance...
640
00:43:56,767 --> 00:43:58,145
- We can do it like this.
- Perfect.
641
00:43:58,169 --> 00:43:59,437
It doesn't matter to me.
642
00:44:00,238 --> 00:44:02,773
But, yeah,
I just wanted to kind of know, um,
643
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,610
the proceedings that kind of
came out of there today
644
00:44:05,676 --> 00:44:07,011
and what you thought of it, Brad.
645
00:44:07,812 --> 00:44:09,280
The question here in this case
646
00:44:09,847 --> 00:44:14,452
is not for this court to decide
whether Brendan Dassey is innocent.
647
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,656
The question here
is really a federalism question.
648
00:44:18,723 --> 00:44:20,791
Under United States statutes,
649
00:44:20,858 --> 00:44:24,395
how much authority
does the federal court have
650
00:44:24,462 --> 00:44:28,199
to go in and substitute its judgment
for the determination of the jury
651
00:44:28,266 --> 00:44:30,801
and the trial court judges
and the state appellate courts?
652
00:44:51,022 --> 00:44:53,224
If you look
at what the unique facts were
653
00:44:53,291 --> 00:44:55,259
that the prosecution relied on,
654
00:44:55,793 --> 00:45:01,098
it was a script of what Teresa
was supposedly saying and doing
655
00:45:01,165 --> 00:45:02,433
in the bedroom.
656
00:45:02,500 --> 00:45:06,504
And the forensic evidence refutes
that Teresa was ever in the bedroom.
657
00:45:10,641 --> 00:45:12,476
There is no proof she was raped.
658
00:45:12,543 --> 00:45:15,413
There's no proof anything happened
in the bedroom.
659
00:45:15,479 --> 00:45:19,016
There's really... We know there's no proof
anything happened in the garage.
660
00:45:19,083 --> 00:45:20,985
She wasn't shot in the garage.
661
00:45:21,052 --> 00:45:24,322
Even when the judge asked,
"Well, there were shell casings,"
662
00:45:24,388 --> 00:45:29,160
the response is, "Well, Judge,
this was on a 40-acre salvage yard,
663
00:45:29,227 --> 00:45:32,129
and there were casings all over the place
664
00:45:32,196 --> 00:45:34,832
because these people were hunting,
shooting rabbits,
665
00:45:34,899 --> 00:45:36,634
shooting gophers and all of that.
666
00:45:36,701 --> 00:45:38,836
I could tell, when he asked that question,
667
00:45:38,903 --> 00:45:42,073
he's thinking, "Well, that shooting
must have occurred in the garage."
668
00:45:42,139 --> 00:45:46,444
Because in his garage,
on the north side of Chicago,
669
00:45:46,510 --> 00:45:48,179
there's no shell casings.
670
00:45:48,246 --> 00:45:49,947
But, see, you have to tell him that,
671
00:45:50,014 --> 00:45:51,315
because he's thinking,
672
00:45:51,382 --> 00:45:53,584
"Oh, there must have been
a shooting in the garage."
673
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:56,487
It's that misperception,
674
00:45:56,554 --> 00:46:00,358
and it's the opportunity
to correct those things.
675
00:46:02,593 --> 00:46:08,666
And so, I think if the defense
had a better grasp
676
00:46:08,833 --> 00:46:11,836
of the facts of the forensic evidence,
677
00:46:12,670 --> 00:46:15,006
that would have been very powerful.
678
00:46:15,072 --> 00:46:19,977
And when the one judge said,
"Why do we need two killers in this?"
679
00:46:20,044 --> 00:46:23,481
the answer to that isn't to avert
and not answer it.
680
00:46:23,547 --> 00:46:26,384
The answer is, "I'll tell you why, Judge.
681
00:46:26,450 --> 00:46:29,787
The reason wasn't to have two killers
for the fun of it.
682
00:46:29,854 --> 00:46:33,858
The reason was to take down Steven Avery.
683
00:46:33,924 --> 00:46:37,662
They needed someone else to corroborate
684
00:46:37,728 --> 00:46:40,898
what the forensic evidence refuted."
685
00:46:41,465 --> 00:46:44,235
Just knowing all that,
being able to refute it all,
686
00:46:44,302 --> 00:46:47,638
it's like there's this big tidal wave
coming towards you,
687
00:46:47,705 --> 00:46:50,908
and you have to be able
to knock out the whole thing.
688
00:46:50,975 --> 00:46:54,512
You've got to have an impenetrable wall up
689
00:46:54,578 --> 00:46:57,615
where you can just deflect everything
they come up with.
690
00:46:57,682 --> 00:46:59,417
Everything has to be answered.
691
00:46:59,984 --> 00:47:02,053
And when you leave an oral argument
692
00:47:02,119 --> 00:47:08,793
and you have not answered on a confession
why those are not unique facts,
693
00:47:08,859 --> 00:47:09,894
you're in trouble.
694
00:47:18,536 --> 00:47:19,904
Did you find some?
695
00:47:26,043 --> 00:47:27,378
You're really getting gray.
696
00:47:28,012 --> 00:47:29,880
Tell me about it.
697
00:47:32,783 --> 00:47:36,320
No, I don't need to tell you,
because so am I.
698
00:47:42,093 --> 00:47:45,262
I think we gotta pick up
those pills tomorrow for that.
699
00:47:45,663 --> 00:47:46,997
You didn't pick them up today?
700
00:47:47,064 --> 00:47:48,199
No, we couldn't.
701
00:47:48,265 --> 00:47:50,568
- Why?
- I don't know.
702
00:47:50,634 --> 00:47:52,536
If I would have known that,
703
00:47:52,603 --> 00:47:54,905
I would have picked them up today
after work.
704
00:47:55,740 --> 00:47:57,308
And you're slacking again.
705
00:47:58,209 --> 00:47:59,710
- Who is?
- You are.
706
00:48:00,444 --> 00:48:02,613
I don't do that.
The other ones all do that.
707
00:48:03,447 --> 00:48:05,483
You're slacking on papers.
708
00:48:05,549 --> 00:48:07,184
And I don't want a blue one, Mom.
709
00:48:07,852 --> 00:48:08,852
I'm gonna quit.
710
00:48:10,187 --> 00:48:11,489
Then I'll quit.
711
00:48:13,457 --> 00:48:15,092
We'll have half a head curly.
712
00:48:15,159 --> 00:48:16,159
Yeah.
713
00:48:22,333 --> 00:48:24,301
Loosen that one, just a notch.
714
00:48:25,403 --> 00:48:27,271
Mother, I'm not gonna get done.
715
00:48:27,638 --> 00:48:28,638
Better?
716
00:48:29,006 --> 00:48:30,808
- Have you got a deadline again?
- No.
717
00:48:30,875 --> 00:48:33,244
If you keep telling me to loosen it...
718
00:48:33,310 --> 00:48:34,578
Well, it hurts.
719
00:48:37,314 --> 00:48:39,884
I've got too small of a spot right here.
720
00:48:41,886 --> 00:48:43,326
Can you move in a little bit?
721
00:48:44,522 --> 00:48:47,258
Alright,
I'll get up and you push the chair.
722
00:48:49,393 --> 00:48:50,995
I want to be a full family.
723
00:48:52,196 --> 00:48:53,731
Not a partial family.
724
00:48:55,199 --> 00:48:57,301
I want us all to be together.
725
00:49:01,472 --> 00:49:03,340
My parents are getting old.
726
00:49:05,142 --> 00:49:08,245
And I know it's gonna come
sooner or later,
727
00:49:08,312 --> 00:49:12,016
and I want them both out
before that even happens.
728
00:50:11,075 --> 00:50:13,410
These years are going by fast.
729
00:50:17,414 --> 00:50:20,217
Chuckie, I think, is 63 years old already.
730
00:50:20,284 --> 00:50:21,284
OK.
731
00:50:24,421 --> 00:50:26,056
OK, get out of the way.
732
00:50:27,725 --> 00:50:29,994
So, that makes me an old fart.
733
00:50:38,235 --> 00:50:41,438
I wanted the boys to succeed.
734
00:50:43,474 --> 00:50:45,743
But when I'm gone,
I don't think they will be doing it.
735
00:50:45,809 --> 00:50:47,587
Want it there, or where's it gonna go?
736
00:50:47,611 --> 00:50:48,979
Because it's a dirty job.
737
00:50:49,046 --> 00:50:50,981
- Hang on!
- Right there.
738
00:51:33,190 --> 00:51:38,095
I want to go through what I think is
the most important evidence in the case,
739
00:51:38,162 --> 00:51:41,799
which is the sequencing
of who was doing what
740
00:51:41,865 --> 00:51:43,934
when Teresa came on the property.
741
00:51:46,804 --> 00:51:53,510
And so, what I want to do
is I want to reconstruct
742
00:51:54,311 --> 00:51:56,413
that whole sequence of events
743
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,884
to determine if Bobby Dassey
744
00:52:01,885 --> 00:52:07,257
actually left the property
within a minute or two of Teresa
745
00:52:08,058 --> 00:52:11,996
and followed her when she turned left
746
00:52:12,663 --> 00:52:19,236
and met up with his soon-to-be stepfather,
Scott Tadych,
747
00:52:20,004 --> 00:52:22,172
and they are somehow involved
in the murder.
748
00:52:23,007 --> 00:52:26,143
And so, I want to do that sequence
749
00:52:26,210 --> 00:52:32,916
and see, um, if I can make that fit
on the timeline.
750
00:52:33,817 --> 00:52:34,852
So, I think that's...
751
00:52:35,552 --> 00:52:40,090
It's highly likely that
that was the sequence of what happened.
752
00:52:47,498 --> 00:52:51,368
Assuming the Dawn Pliszka
phone call happened at 2:27,
753
00:52:51,435 --> 00:52:53,203
which I believe that it did,
754
00:52:53,270 --> 00:52:58,742
Teresa arrived at 147 and Avery Road
around 2:31.
755
00:53:04,615 --> 00:53:06,950
One of the things that I learned,
being out there,
756
00:53:07,017 --> 00:53:11,221
is the property is so huge
compared to what most people think.
757
00:53:13,824 --> 00:53:18,629
You have to go at least
a quarter of a mile down Avery Road
758
00:53:19,063 --> 00:53:23,000
even to get
to Mr. And Mrs. Avery's residence.
759
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:27,905
Then you take a right turn
and you go down another long road,
760
00:53:27,971 --> 00:53:32,609
probably not quite a quarter of a mile,
to Steven's trailer
761
00:53:32,676 --> 00:53:36,480
and where Barb's trailer
was immediately east of it.
762
00:53:51,829 --> 00:53:56,600
We think that she arrives
on the Avery property at 2:35.
763
00:54:00,070 --> 00:54:03,607
Steven is starting
to initiate a call to her
764
00:54:03,674 --> 00:54:05,542
and hangs up without it connecting
765
00:54:05,609 --> 00:54:07,945
because he looks out his window
and he sees her.
766
00:54:08,779 --> 00:54:14,251
So, what Steven has consistently said
in his interviews and police reports
767
00:54:14,852 --> 00:54:17,788
is that when Teresa arrived,
768
00:54:18,222 --> 00:54:20,290
she never comes to the trailer.
769
00:54:20,357 --> 00:54:22,793
He walks out to her car.
770
00:54:23,694 --> 00:54:26,396
She gives him the document,
he gives her the money,
771
00:54:26,997 --> 00:54:28,198
and she drives off.
772
00:54:28,265 --> 00:54:32,302
So, the money, and then the information
for the car. Perfect.
773
00:54:32,369 --> 00:54:35,081
You gave her 40 bucks,
she gave you an Auto Trader magazine.
774
00:54:35,105 --> 00:54:36,916
- Yeah.
- OK, and then she...
775
00:54:36,940 --> 00:54:40,144
Oh, she went to the car
and got me that.
776
00:54:40,210 --> 00:54:43,514
Now, you said you were
inside your home when she pulled up.
777
00:54:43,580 --> 00:54:44,414
Yeah.
778
00:54:44,481 --> 00:54:46,550
OK.
And the contact you had with her
779
00:54:46,617 --> 00:54:48,085
only lasted for how many minutes?
780
00:54:48,152 --> 00:54:50,330
- Bye.
- Within five minutes.
781
00:54:50,354 --> 00:54:54,391
Then, after you're done and she
gives you the book, where do you go to?
782
00:54:54,458 --> 00:54:55,893
I go back in the house.
783
00:54:55,959 --> 00:54:57,995
OK.
And how long are you there for?
784
00:55:01,899 --> 00:55:03,634
Probably, I don't know...
785
00:55:05,135 --> 00:55:06,170
Drop off the book.
786
00:55:07,204 --> 00:55:10,507
- Then I walked over by Barbara.
- By where?
787
00:55:10,574 --> 00:55:12,643
- By Barbara, my sister.
- OK.
788
00:55:12,709 --> 00:55:15,029
To see if Bobby was home,
but he was already gone.
789
00:55:15,078 --> 00:55:16,078
He had just left.
790
00:55:18,248 --> 00:55:20,927
She leaves, you put
the Auto Trader magazine in your house.
791
00:55:20,951 --> 00:55:24,221
- Yeah, and I went over there.
- You walked right over?
792
00:55:24,288 --> 00:55:27,124
Well, he was gone. He just left.
793
00:55:27,858 --> 00:55:29,135
- Bobby?
- Yeah.
794
00:55:29,159 --> 00:55:31,070
- Did you see him leave?
- No.
795
00:55:31,094 --> 00:55:33,439
- He was already gone.
- Yes, he just left.
796
00:55:33,463 --> 00:55:35,508
- Did he drive somewhere...
- Yeah.
797
00:55:35,532 --> 00:55:37,367
Yeah, he took his Blazer.
798
00:55:37,434 --> 00:55:39,536
- Do you know where he went?
- No.
799
00:55:39,603 --> 00:55:41,238
OK, let's go back to the van.
800
00:55:45,742 --> 00:55:47,453
- Good. How are you?
- Good.
801
00:55:47,477 --> 00:55:50,414
So, the money,
and then information for the car.
802
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:51,415
- VIN.
- Perfect.
803
00:55:51,481 --> 00:55:53,650
How do you get from the van
804
00:55:53,717 --> 00:55:57,287
where she's taking the picture
to her vehicle for the book?
805
00:55:58,555 --> 00:56:00,791
- Walk.
- You ask her for a book?
806
00:56:00,858 --> 00:56:03,360
No, she said,
"I got the book in the truck."
807
00:56:03,427 --> 00:56:05,467
So, then you follow her towards the truck.
808
00:56:05,529 --> 00:56:06,363
Yeah.
809
00:56:06,430 --> 00:56:07,631
What happens next?
810
00:56:07,698 --> 00:56:10,300
Well, she opened the door.
She got in.
811
00:56:10,367 --> 00:56:11,368
Then she reached over.
812
00:56:11,435 --> 00:56:13,070
- She sit down?
- Yeah.
813
00:56:13,136 --> 00:56:16,673
- She reaches to get the book?
- Yeah. The passenger side.
814
00:56:16,740 --> 00:56:18,585
- She just hands it out to you?
- Yeah.
815
00:56:18,609 --> 00:56:20,744
Does she get back out
of the truck again?
816
00:56:20,811 --> 00:56:21,745
No. No.
817
00:56:21,812 --> 00:56:23,572
- Then she leaves.
- Yeah.
818
00:56:23,614 --> 00:56:25,182
Is Bobby home then or no?
819
00:56:25,883 --> 00:56:27,117
Yeah, Bobby's home.
820
00:56:27,184 --> 00:56:29,453
OK. And does he come out or anything?
821
00:56:29,519 --> 00:56:31,655
Or does he see you leave or see her leave?
822
00:56:34,858 --> 00:56:36,193
You'd have to ask him.
823
00:56:36,260 --> 00:56:38,738
- You know he's home.
- Yeah. He's home then.
824
00:56:38,762 --> 00:56:41,031
- When she leaves, he's home.
- Yeah.
825
00:56:42,332 --> 00:56:44,501
And just when
I walked in the house
826
00:56:44,568 --> 00:56:46,003
and come back, and he was gone.
827
00:56:46,403 --> 00:56:50,073
So, just in that moment
of you saying good-bye to Teresa,
828
00:56:50,140 --> 00:56:52,242
going into your house with the paper
and coming back,
829
00:56:52,309 --> 00:56:54,011
you notice that he's gone.
830
00:56:54,077 --> 00:56:56,117
While she's giving you that thing,
he's still there.
831
00:56:56,146 --> 00:56:57,481
- Yeah.
- OK.
832
00:56:57,547 --> 00:57:00,651
Within, I don't know, that second.
833
00:57:00,717 --> 00:57:03,687
He probably... At the same time, almost.
834
00:57:04,888 --> 00:57:07,090
OK, so,
by the time that it took you to walk
835
00:57:07,157 --> 00:57:09,826
from her vehicle to your place
and drop off that thing,
836
00:57:09,893 --> 00:57:11,461
and then to walk right back outside?
837
00:57:11,528 --> 00:57:13,608
- Yeah. He's gone.
- He's gone. OK.
838
00:57:19,269 --> 00:57:23,407
He looks and he sees
that Bobby's truck isn't there.
839
00:57:24,608 --> 00:57:30,147
And then he looks out to the road,
and Teresa's making a left turn on 147.
840
00:57:31,281 --> 00:57:35,852
She was actually exiting
the Avery property
841
00:57:35,919 --> 00:57:38,689
at around 2:38.
842
00:57:40,924 --> 00:57:44,061
What he didn't realize,
and we didn't realize,
843
00:57:44,127 --> 00:57:48,532
was that Bobby's actually about...
844
00:57:49,266 --> 00:57:53,737
probably about 150 yards behind Teresa.
845
00:57:55,505 --> 00:57:57,941
But Bobby is in the part of the road
that dips down,
846
00:57:58,008 --> 00:58:00,510
where you can't even see
the top of his truck.
847
00:58:00,577 --> 00:58:02,479
Steven goes back in the trailer.
848
00:58:09,653 --> 00:58:13,824
Bobby was probably
only 30 seconds behind her.
849
00:58:17,828 --> 00:58:22,666
So, we wanted to see how long
it would take him to catch up with her
850
00:58:22,733 --> 00:58:27,270
if she was just driving normal speed
and he was going over the speed limit.
851
00:58:43,620 --> 00:58:46,223
Could he catch her
before they got to Q Road?
852
00:58:46,923 --> 00:58:48,625
And he did.
853
00:58:58,435 --> 00:59:01,104
And he could also see
that she made a left turn.
854
00:59:31,034 --> 00:59:33,003
Right at 2:41,
855
00:59:33,070 --> 00:59:36,840
that's the last call
where her cell phone is active.
856
00:59:37,574 --> 00:59:41,678
That call is right before
she would have gotten to Kuss Road.
857
00:59:41,745 --> 00:59:43,313
She's distracted.
858
00:59:43,814 --> 00:59:46,817
She forwards the call and she pulls over.
859
00:59:59,863 --> 01:00:03,300
And that's where we think
she stopped to talk,
860
01:00:03,366 --> 01:00:06,970
most likely, to Bobby Dassey
about doing a hustle shot.
861
01:00:19,883 --> 01:00:22,043
If this is somebody
you've had contact with,
862
01:00:22,085 --> 01:00:23,553
done a hustle shot with,
863
01:00:24,054 --> 01:00:26,189
they wave you down, you know?
864
01:00:27,891 --> 01:00:29,326
You're on Kuss Road.
865
01:00:39,736 --> 01:00:41,771
So, why is Bobby Dassey lying?
866
01:00:41,838 --> 01:00:46,977
Why does Bobby Dassey have
all of this deviant porn on his computer?
867
01:00:47,344 --> 01:00:52,115
Why are we able to recreate that
and catch up with her in 30 seconds?
868
01:00:53,016 --> 01:00:55,318
Why do we end up right by Kuss Road,
869
01:00:55,385 --> 01:00:58,855
where they suspect
she was buried temporarily?
870
01:01:00,957 --> 01:01:05,362
Why is there blood on the rear cargo door
if she wasn't ambushed?
871
01:01:07,130 --> 01:01:11,101
So, those are just the normal questions
that you would ask.
71219
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