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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:18,860 --> 00:00:21,980 In 1994, in the American firm Citibank, large sums of money 2 00:00:22,060 --> 00:00:25,220 started mysteriously disappearing from clients' accounts. 3 00:00:25,638 --> 00:00:28,989 A resultant investigation revealed that a computer located in Russia 4 00:00:29,075 --> 00:00:31,231 was used to break into the Citibank systems. 5 00:00:31,311 --> 00:00:36,223 The idea of robbing banks from a distance revolutionized the criminal world. 6 00:00:36,303 --> 00:00:39,980 In this series, we will tell you about Russian hackers' very first crimes, 7 00:00:40,060 --> 00:00:42,817 after which the whole world started talking about them. 8 00:00:51,900 --> 00:00:54,220 RUSSIAN HACKERS: BEGINNING 9 00:00:54,300 --> 00:00:56,700 A DOCUMENTARY BY ANDREY LOSHAK 10 00:00:57,700 --> 00:01:00,453 EPISODE ONE THE PIONEERS 11 00:01:01,580 --> 00:01:03,742 NEW YORK, USA 12 00:01:03,822 --> 00:01:07,173 Steven Garfinkel, an FBI agent, was assigned to investigate the case 13 00:01:07,253 --> 00:01:10,164 of the suspicious transactions that took place in Citibank. 14 00:01:10,244 --> 00:01:13,947 Banking fraud was his specialization, but he had never encountered anything 15 00:01:14,027 --> 00:01:15,227 like this before. 16 00:01:16,195 --> 00:01:20,130 There was no computer crime squad in the FBI. 17 00:01:20,210 --> 00:01:21,887 STEVE GARFINKEL FBI SPECIAL AGENT 18 00:01:21,967 --> 00:01:25,510 There was no cyber division. It was a totally different world. 19 00:01:25,590 --> 00:01:29,950 And in many respects, this was an entirely new crime. 20 00:01:30,030 --> 00:01:31,706 It was a… 21 00:01:32,710 --> 00:01:34,133 a cyber bank robbery. 22 00:01:35,252 --> 00:01:36,844 VARNA, BULGARIA 23 00:01:36,924 --> 00:01:40,781 The first penetration into Citibank's systems was by a hacker called ArkanoiD. 24 00:01:40,861 --> 00:01:43,114 In the beginning of the 1990s, he was a member 25 00:01:43,194 --> 00:01:46,500 of an early group in Saint Petersburg who had romanticized hacking; 26 00:01:46,580 --> 00:01:48,783 who hacked security systems out of curiosity, 27 00:01:48,863 --> 00:01:49,768 but not for money. 28 00:01:49,848 --> 00:01:50,697 Back then… 29 00:01:50,777 --> 00:01:52,283 ALEXEY SMIRNOV A.K.A. ARKANOID 30 00:01:52,363 --> 00:01:53,823 …it was purely noncommercial. 31 00:01:54,354 --> 00:01:55,924 It was just a hobby. 32 00:01:58,180 --> 00:01:59,280 Is this why… 33 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:00,570 ANDREY LOSHAK 34 00:02:00,650 --> 00:02:02,893 …after breaking through Citibank's security, 35 00:02:02,973 --> 00:02:04,820 you didn't try to rob it right away? 36 00:02:04,900 --> 00:02:07,700 Essentially, yes. It was basically a part of our culture. 37 00:02:07,780 --> 00:02:14,220 Doing this for profit was considered something unusual 38 00:02:14,300 --> 00:02:19,340 and contradicted the traditional concepts of hacker ethics. 39 00:02:20,060 --> 00:02:24,780 Even if we don't focus on the related ethical problems, 40 00:02:24,860 --> 00:02:26,364 such as "stealing is bad", 41 00:02:27,260 --> 00:02:31,300 the very idea of theft by technological means in the 1990s in Russia, 42 00:02:31,380 --> 00:02:36,780 was connected to dealing with some very unpleasant people. 43 00:02:36,860 --> 00:02:39,060 And I never wanted to do such a thing at all. 44 00:02:39,580 --> 00:02:42,140 Do you mean that you would have to find a way 45 00:02:42,220 --> 00:02:44,980 to convert the electronic funds to real cash? 46 00:02:45,060 --> 00:02:47,760 Yeah, right. And everything associated with doing this. 47 00:02:51,225 --> 00:02:54,380 Back then, there were two global computer networks in the world: 48 00:02:54,460 --> 00:02:58,380 the Internet and the X.25 protocol, which was used by Citibank. 49 00:02:58,460 --> 00:03:02,540 X.25 access in Russia was provided by an American company called Sprintnet. 50 00:03:02,620 --> 00:03:06,521 To enter the network, you needed to call the number of the provider's local hub 51 00:03:06,601 --> 00:03:07,476 using your modem, 52 00:03:07,556 --> 00:03:10,367 and enter a special command into the terminal dialog box. 53 00:03:10,447 --> 00:03:13,599 Via the Sprintnet connection, ArkanoiD and his friend broke into 54 00:03:13,679 --> 00:03:16,740 Citibank's network and discovered many flaws. 55 00:03:16,820 --> 00:03:20,632 Later on, a detailed guide for using the vulnerabilities found by the hackers 56 00:03:20,712 --> 00:03:23,490 was obtained by Vladimir Levin, an unremarkable computer 57 00:03:23,570 --> 00:03:26,426 and accounting software trader from Saint Petersburg. 58 00:03:27,315 --> 00:03:29,253 One of the members of our group 59 00:03:30,420 --> 00:03:32,860 sold it to him for the ridiculous sum of $100. 60 00:03:32,940 --> 00:03:36,300 He sold it because he thought that Levin wasn't bright enough, 61 00:03:36,380 --> 00:03:43,125 and he didn't expect Levin to resort to methods we wouldn't like. 62 00:03:43,205 --> 00:03:45,288 Why didn't he consider him bright enough? 63 00:03:45,368 --> 00:03:46,620 Levin never was a hacker. 64 00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:48,940 He never explored anything on his own. 65 00:03:49,020 --> 00:03:53,100 He was just a run-of-the-mill trader with a small hardware business. 66 00:03:53,180 --> 00:03:55,680 He showed some moderate interest, but that was all. 67 00:03:58,340 --> 00:04:00,820 Having entered Citibank's cash management system 68 00:04:00,900 --> 00:04:02,220 on his office computer, 69 00:04:02,300 --> 00:04:05,500 Levin randomly selected a few major accountholders 70 00:04:05,580 --> 00:04:09,308 and transferred around $500,000 to the account of his friend in Helsinki. 71 00:04:09,402 --> 00:04:11,714 He managed to convert these funds to real cash. 72 00:04:11,794 --> 00:04:16,011 Levin needed mules: people who helped to turn the hacker-stolen funds into cash. 73 00:04:16,091 --> 00:04:20,873 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA, USA 74 00:04:25,150 --> 00:04:28,510 In the beginning of the 1990s, Yekaterina got lucky: 75 00:04:29,550 --> 00:04:32,190 she met a prince in a Mercedes named Evgeny. 76 00:04:32,270 --> 00:04:33,570 The couple had a daughter. 77 00:04:33,650 --> 00:04:36,326 However, in the lawless Saint Petersburg of the 1990s, 78 00:04:36,406 --> 00:04:37,910 their happiness ended quickly. 79 00:04:37,990 --> 00:04:39,440 Evgeny amassed debts. 80 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,260 Evgeny started walking around with a gun in his pocket. 81 00:04:43,340 --> 00:04:44,364 Some shady people… 82 00:04:44,444 --> 00:04:45,444 YEKATERINA KOROLKOVA 83 00:04:45,524 --> 00:04:47,272 …started coming to our dacha. 84 00:04:47,352 --> 00:04:50,834 We kept on guard all the time; we were in fear. 85 00:04:50,914 --> 00:04:54,786 He used to say, "We owe this sum of money, we have to give it back." 86 00:05:19,990 --> 00:05:21,990 EVGENY KOROLKOV 87 00:05:22,070 --> 00:05:23,190 Well… 88 00:05:23,270 --> 00:05:25,230 Anyone willing to buy this house? 89 00:05:26,533 --> 00:05:27,982 I can give you a good price. 90 00:05:29,110 --> 00:05:31,270 DEDOVICHI, PSKOV OBLAST 91 00:05:31,350 --> 00:05:34,304 Evgeny Korolkov no longer has an apartment in San Francisco. 92 00:05:34,384 --> 00:05:37,335 The former businessman lives in a village with his grandson. 93 00:05:37,415 --> 00:05:40,790 In the summer of 1994, Korolkov's acquaintance, Vladimir Levin, 94 00:05:40,870 --> 00:05:42,971 contacted him with a confidential request: 95 00:05:43,051 --> 00:05:46,851 to help him convert, or "encash" the money stolen from the Citibank accounts. 96 00:05:46,931 --> 00:05:50,212 Korolkov's wife Yekaterina unexpectedly volunteered for the job. 97 00:05:52,310 --> 00:05:55,671 I had a clear and detailed conversation with my wife. 98 00:05:56,550 --> 00:05:58,942 Like any woman, she said, 99 00:05:59,670 --> 00:06:03,217 "You are a loser. You can do nothing." 100 00:06:03,870 --> 00:06:06,310 I didn't have an opportunity to do that. 101 00:06:06,390 --> 00:06:09,280 I said, "I would be happy to grant you this opportunity." 102 00:06:10,390 --> 00:06:12,190 Take this money. 103 00:06:12,270 --> 00:06:14,160 Take this plane ticket. 104 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:16,728 Go! 105 00:06:17,670 --> 00:06:18,790 "What do I do?" 106 00:06:18,870 --> 00:06:25,310 I said, "Open accounts in five banks and wait for the money to get there." 107 00:06:25,390 --> 00:06:30,030 Then withdraw it, and you can go wherever you like. 108 00:06:30,110 --> 00:06:31,990 Why did she need so many accounts? 109 00:06:32,070 --> 00:06:34,590 She wanted a million right away. 110 00:06:34,670 --> 00:06:38,880 I told her, "We can send you a trillion if you like. 111 00:06:40,088 --> 00:06:41,988 But how are you going to withdraw it?" 112 00:06:42,510 --> 00:06:46,910 I thought it would be wiser for me to go. He tried to talk me out of this. 113 00:06:47,490 --> 00:06:50,444 But I said that we had no other choice. 114 00:06:50,749 --> 00:06:53,029 We had to pay our debts. 115 00:06:53,109 --> 00:06:55,735 You were aware that you were doing something illegal? 116 00:06:55,815 --> 00:06:57,590 Absolutely! 117 00:06:57,670 --> 00:07:01,670 Absolutely! And I was absolutely sure that I wasn't going to get caught. 118 00:07:03,310 --> 00:07:07,270 "Do you think you can just go and withdraw money, 119 00:07:07,350 --> 00:07:09,790 knowing it's not yours?" 120 00:07:09,870 --> 00:07:12,062 No, I don't think I can. 121 00:07:12,142 --> 00:07:13,075 That's my point. 122 00:07:13,946 --> 00:07:17,246 She thought it would be a piece of cake to come and withdraw money. 123 00:07:18,430 --> 00:07:19,511 That is my point. 124 00:07:20,270 --> 00:07:23,110 Purely psychologically, people don't understand, 125 00:07:23,830 --> 00:07:28,586 "How can this be? I have this money. It was sent to me, but I can't take it." 126 00:07:29,857 --> 00:07:31,031 But you can't. 127 00:07:32,110 --> 00:07:33,350 SAN FRANCISCO, 1994 128 00:07:33,430 --> 00:07:39,511 The money came. A translator and I went to withdraw that money. 129 00:07:41,110 --> 00:07:43,830 When I recall that time, it was such a nightmare. 130 00:07:43,910 --> 00:07:48,760 But it was just me. It was just unforgivable stupidity. 131 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:53,866 I went in and I said, "Give me $30,000 in cash." 132 00:07:54,510 --> 00:07:56,990 They were looking at me with their eyes wide open, 133 00:07:57,070 --> 00:08:00,270 because at that time, you could buy a house for $30,000. 134 00:08:00,995 --> 00:08:03,315 The bank sees these transfers, 135 00:08:03,395 --> 00:08:09,022 knows they're bad, and they contact the banks to say, 136 00:08:09,102 --> 00:08:12,657 "Hey, these are bad transactions, put a freeze on them." 137 00:08:14,370 --> 00:08:19,368 Katerina Korolkova is in the branch trying to withdraw the money. 138 00:08:20,630 --> 00:08:23,630 They refused to give the money to us. 139 00:08:23,710 --> 00:08:25,366 A security officer approaches us. 140 00:08:25,446 --> 00:08:29,036 He leads us into a room. I was surprised we weren't arrested right away. 141 00:08:29,116 --> 00:08:30,270 I was really surprised. 142 00:08:30,350 --> 00:08:33,451 He talked to us. We explained that we were expecting some money 143 00:08:33,531 --> 00:08:34,561 from my husband. 144 00:08:34,641 --> 00:08:35,681 He let us go. 145 00:08:35,761 --> 00:08:36,761 We left. 146 00:08:38,390 --> 00:08:40,910 On Monday, I was packing suitcases for a flight. 147 00:08:40,990 --> 00:08:43,310 There comes a knock on my door. It's the FBI. 148 00:08:43,390 --> 00:08:47,840 And then they take me to the Federal Prison near San Francisco. 149 00:08:49,430 --> 00:08:56,133 That was my trip to America, to San Francisco in 1994. Yes. 150 00:08:57,217 --> 00:09:01,608 We knew about Levin from Katya. Katya told us about Levin. 151 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:07,182 The extent of how he was doing it, what he was doing, 152 00:09:07,262 --> 00:09:13,160 we didn't fully, you know, understand yet how he was doing this. 153 00:09:15,324 --> 00:09:19,370 There's another very important component to this story, 154 00:09:19,450 --> 00:09:26,275 which is the cooperation between the FBI and the Russian authorities. 155 00:09:26,355 --> 00:09:28,620 When you look back on this, 156 00:09:28,700 --> 00:09:31,720 you look at, you know, Russian-US relations today 157 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:37,448 and I don't think this sort of thing could happen. 158 00:09:38,270 --> 00:09:41,822 SAINT PETERSBURG 159 00:09:41,902 --> 00:09:44,739 The FBI asked for help in the Organized Crime Department. 160 00:09:44,819 --> 00:09:47,230 The case was assigned to Investigator Strigalyov. 161 00:09:47,310 --> 00:09:49,510 He found the offenders' address quickly 162 00:09:49,590 --> 00:09:54,910 since a simple telephone modem was used to hack Citibank's system. 163 00:09:54,990 --> 00:09:56,470 It was easy to trace. 164 00:09:58,030 --> 00:10:00,480 We discovered that that number belonged… 165 00:10:00,560 --> 00:10:02,067 BORIS STRIGALYOV, INVESTIGATOR 166 00:10:02,147 --> 00:10:03,856 …to a company in Saint Petersburg. 167 00:10:03,936 --> 00:10:05,436 The company's name was Saturn. 168 00:10:05,777 --> 00:10:09,430 The company's address was 8 Malaya Morskaya Street, 169 00:10:09,510 --> 00:10:11,350 formerly Gogol Street. 170 00:10:12,170 --> 00:10:19,120 Surveillance helped us locate the owner of the company: 171 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,484 Vladimir Levin, 172 00:10:21,564 --> 00:10:26,328 a very advanced computer specialist. 173 00:10:27,990 --> 00:10:30,430 Vladimir Levin was detained quite quickly. 174 00:10:30,510 --> 00:10:34,630 In the fall of 1994, he was careless enough to fly to London on business 175 00:10:34,710 --> 00:10:36,810 where he was detained at the FBI's request. 176 00:10:37,630 --> 00:10:40,782 This footage shot by British television features Levin 177 00:10:40,862 --> 00:10:42,350 surrounded by his lawyers. 178 00:10:42,430 --> 00:10:44,630 Unfortunately, the original footage was lost. 179 00:10:44,710 --> 00:10:47,950 We had to make an inverse translation from English into Russian. 180 00:10:48,030 --> 00:10:51,022 We asked Levin whether he was guilty of this crime. 181 00:10:53,795 --> 00:10:56,310 It is not the time to answer this question, 182 00:10:56,390 --> 00:10:59,635 I would have to answer it in America in front of the Jury. 183 00:11:03,866 --> 00:11:05,620 From the papers that I saw 184 00:11:05,700 --> 00:11:10,097 and accusations that I read I could say that I'm not guilty whatsoever. 185 00:11:11,884 --> 00:11:16,110 If I'm extradited to America of course I may be put on trial, 186 00:11:16,190 --> 00:11:20,100 but all I can say is that I'm not guilty, and this is total rubbish. 187 00:11:24,637 --> 00:11:27,937 While Levin was in a London prison fighting extradition to the USA, 188 00:11:28,017 --> 00:11:31,270 in Saint Petersburg, the investigative team headed by Strigalyov 189 00:11:31,350 --> 00:11:35,040 searched the Saturn offices, where they found computers and weapons. 190 00:11:36,595 --> 00:11:38,840 We get authority to fly to Saint Petersburg. 191 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,690 We meet with the Russian police 192 00:11:41,770 --> 00:11:45,500 and we're in the offices at… 193 00:11:45,580 --> 00:11:49,369 MVD headquarters in Saint Petersburg. 194 00:11:49,449 --> 00:11:52,111 I just had a feeling this was kind of a seminal moment 195 00:11:52,191 --> 00:11:55,400 in the evolution of… you know, of crime. 196 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,702 So, I met with the Russian cops and… 197 00:11:58,782 --> 00:12:03,200 we are going through these materials on the computer and boom, 198 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,130 we find a smoking gun. 199 00:12:05,210 --> 00:12:07,770 There are Citi bank documents 200 00:12:07,850 --> 00:12:11,660 from the cash management system on Levin's computer. 201 00:12:11,740 --> 00:12:16,426 So, this is… this is it, man, we have him dead to rise at this time. 202 00:12:17,470 --> 00:12:20,870 They arrived in a quite short time after the case was opened 203 00:12:20,950 --> 00:12:22,711 the office was searched and all. 204 00:12:22,791 --> 00:12:24,373 Two FBI officers. 205 00:12:25,217 --> 00:12:29,150 We allowed them to copy the digital information 206 00:12:29,230 --> 00:12:30,910 we found on the computer. 207 00:12:30,990 --> 00:12:35,790 We communicated and aligned our efforts. 208 00:12:35,870 --> 00:12:37,208 And they left. 209 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:43,080 The MVD cops saw we were very excited about this 210 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,780 and it was a cause for a celebration. 211 00:12:45,860 --> 00:12:50,453 It was 11:00 in the morning, the first bottle of vodka comes out. 212 00:12:50,533 --> 00:12:54,570 We finish the bottle, two more bottles come out. 213 00:12:54,650 --> 00:12:58,660 You know, I was a lot younger then and I guess my body can process it but man, 214 00:12:58,740 --> 00:13:01,902 I will tell you I have never in my life… 215 00:13:02,968 --> 00:13:06,120 been as drunk as I was that day. 216 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:10,410 First of all we started pickles and it's pickle juice and a vodka. 217 00:13:10,490 --> 00:13:13,400 Chocolate bar and the vodka, and then somebody says, 218 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,460 "Oh, very special, very special." 219 00:13:15,540 --> 00:13:17,253 Opens a can of tomatoes. 220 00:13:18,017 --> 00:13:21,317 I can actually understand that. That was almost like a Bloody Mary. 221 00:13:22,364 --> 00:13:24,168 Is "oguschenya" a word? 222 00:13:25,013 --> 00:13:26,360 - What? - Oguschenya. 223 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:27,494 - Like, snacks. - Yes. 224 00:13:27,574 --> 00:13:29,617 Oguschenya, yeah. Oguschenya. 225 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:37,630 If you recall, at that time our relationship with the USA was improving. 226 00:13:37,710 --> 00:13:40,470 It was quite favorable. 227 00:13:40,550 --> 00:13:42,915 As a matter of fact, 228 00:13:42,995 --> 00:13:48,044 law enforcement officers always have mutual respect 229 00:13:48,124 --> 00:13:49,540 because, obviously, 230 00:13:50,328 --> 00:13:54,350 there was nothing political about this, it was a purely criminal case. 231 00:13:54,430 --> 00:13:58,190 We clearly had to unite forces. 232 00:14:00,870 --> 00:14:03,420 Steve Garfinkel needed testimony against Levin, 233 00:14:03,500 --> 00:14:06,302 who didn't admit his guilt and fought being extradited. 234 00:14:06,701 --> 00:14:08,651 Evgeny Korolkov was the one to give it. 235 00:14:08,731 --> 00:14:12,504 Garfunkel convinced him to come to America with his daughter 236 00:14:12,584 --> 00:14:14,790 and voluntarily surrender to the authorities. 237 00:14:14,870 --> 00:14:18,853 Why did you go to America after Levin was arrested? 238 00:14:19,790 --> 00:14:21,430 What choice did I have? 239 00:14:21,510 --> 00:14:24,610 Should I have gone to the Soviet prison? To the Russian prison? 240 00:14:26,670 --> 00:14:30,790 I had had a civilized negotiation underway with them. 241 00:14:30,870 --> 00:14:36,622 I took Katya, got a visa in Moscow. 242 00:14:37,910 --> 00:14:39,670 From Moscow, without any rush, 243 00:14:40,710 --> 00:14:42,053 on March 8th, 244 00:14:43,528 --> 00:14:45,630 1995, 245 00:14:45,710 --> 00:14:48,000 I flew to New York City. 246 00:14:49,911 --> 00:14:53,573 - And I was arrested there. - You turned yourself in. 247 00:14:55,830 --> 00:14:59,150 They told me that if I cooperated with the investigators, 248 00:14:59,230 --> 00:15:01,710 they would let me go. 249 00:15:01,790 --> 00:15:03,510 And they would let him go. 250 00:15:03,590 --> 00:15:08,150 On top of that, they would let us stay in the USA. 251 00:15:08,230 --> 00:15:11,550 When they told me that they would let me stay in the USA 252 00:15:11,630 --> 00:15:13,230 and bring my kid here, 253 00:15:13,310 --> 00:15:15,950 it made me really happy. 254 00:15:16,030 --> 00:15:17,070 Who are "they"? 255 00:15:17,150 --> 00:15:18,430 The FBI. 256 00:15:18,510 --> 00:15:20,222 They gave us money. 257 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:22,590 $4,000. 258 00:15:22,670 --> 00:15:25,448 And they rented an apartment for us. 259 00:15:26,990 --> 00:15:32,260 I always thought Korolkov spoke with us at length. 260 00:15:32,340 --> 00:15:34,340 The central story is that 261 00:15:34,420 --> 00:15:38,977 he was associated with these gangsters 262 00:15:39,057 --> 00:15:41,546 in St. Petersburg. 263 00:15:42,630 --> 00:15:44,150 SAINT PETERSBURG 264 00:15:44,230 --> 00:15:47,950 Korolkov's testimony led to another suspect, Damir Shadaev, 265 00:15:48,030 --> 00:15:52,288 a respected entrepreneur, a timber agent, later a State Duma deputy 266 00:15:52,368 --> 00:15:55,780 from the Leningrad Oblast Legislative Assembly, an LDPR party member. 267 00:15:55,860 --> 00:16:00,150 According to the FBI data, Shadaev helped encash around $4,000 268 00:16:00,230 --> 00:16:01,555 stolen from Citibank. 269 00:16:02,746 --> 00:16:04,560 Shadaev needed money. 270 00:16:05,230 --> 00:16:08,950 He wanted his commission. Levin wasn't giving money away for free. 271 00:16:09,030 --> 00:16:13,617 Nor was I giving away that money for free. 272 00:16:15,110 --> 00:16:19,590 Just try to send someone to encash money for free. 273 00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:23,110 He was to give 50% back. 274 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,808 Then we come to interview Shadayev. 275 00:16:27,888 --> 00:16:30,238 First of all, we heard him coming down the hall, 276 00:16:30,318 --> 00:16:32,171 and he's yakking it up with the cops. 277 00:16:32,251 --> 00:16:34,351 You know, they're all laughing, "ha-ha-ha," 278 00:16:34,730 --> 00:16:39,520 and apparently, he took his gun and holster off 279 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,900 and gave it to the cops before he came, you know, to see me. 280 00:16:42,980 --> 00:16:47,555 It was kind of clear that whoever Shadayev was friendly with, 281 00:16:47,635 --> 00:16:52,453 he didn't have to worry about, you know, anything from the authorities. 282 00:16:53,510 --> 00:16:57,590 According to the case files, $73,000 stolen from Citibank 283 00:16:57,670 --> 00:17:01,830 was spent on buying weapons in a Finnish hunting store. 284 00:17:01,910 --> 00:17:05,671 Later on, some of that weaponry was found in Shadaev's estate near Vyborg. 285 00:17:06,710 --> 00:17:09,866 They were to confiscate these weapons. 286 00:17:09,946 --> 00:17:12,195 I don't know what they confiscated. 287 00:17:13,030 --> 00:17:16,106 Can you imagine the amount of weapons 288 00:17:16,186 --> 00:17:20,248 you could buy for around $70,000? 289 00:17:21,030 --> 00:17:26,960 He was the first to buy a 17-round Glock. 290 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,471 I was the second to import the second one to Russia. 291 00:17:31,110 --> 00:17:32,990 I had a 19-round one. 292 00:17:34,990 --> 00:17:37,395 We showed off to impress each other. 293 00:17:39,390 --> 00:17:45,511 But Shadaev was the first to wear a Sheik's Cartier watch. 294 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,066 A $60,000 watch. 295 00:17:51,030 --> 00:17:53,120 And he wasn't afraid of wearing it. 296 00:17:55,510 --> 00:17:58,910 In Saint Petersburg, Shadaev is infamous for scaring off journalists. 297 00:17:59,110 --> 00:18:03,350 In 2008, a film crew from Channel 100 tried to go to the island 298 00:18:03,430 --> 00:18:07,710 where Shadaev had built an estate, having unlawfully seized a riverbank. 299 00:18:07,790 --> 00:18:09,890 They had to go back without their cameras. 300 00:18:10,595 --> 00:18:12,730 For some reason, Shadaev wasn't there… 301 00:18:12,810 --> 00:18:14,317 ALEXANDER TROFIMOV, JOURNALIST 302 00:18:14,397 --> 00:18:16,630 …when we came to shoot. He wasn't around. 303 00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:19,750 Suddenly we saw him rushing toward us on his motor dinghy, 304 00:18:19,830 --> 00:18:23,271 all enraged and agitated. 305 00:18:24,830 --> 00:18:26,790 He came up and greeted us. 306 00:18:26,870 --> 00:18:29,057 He grabbed the camera and the stand 307 00:18:29,542 --> 00:18:31,946 that our camera operator didn't guard well enough 308 00:18:32,026 --> 00:18:34,293 and he threw the equipment into the river. 309 00:18:35,555 --> 00:18:40,710 At that time, we felt the merciless 1990s vibe. 310 00:18:40,790 --> 00:18:42,231 Thank God we weren't killed. 311 00:18:50,912 --> 00:18:54,320 The richest deputy in the Leningrad Oblast Legislative Assembly lives 312 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,200 lives on his own island near Vyborg. 313 00:18:57,555 --> 00:18:59,870 Knowing Damir Shadaev's dislike for the press, 314 00:18:59,950 --> 00:19:02,977 nevertheless, we risked going to the gates of his estate. 315 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:08,791 Hello! Speak! 316 00:19:08,871 --> 00:19:11,670 We would like to talk to Mr. Shadaev. 317 00:19:11,750 --> 00:19:13,413 We can't reach him on the phone. 318 00:19:15,155 --> 00:19:16,990 Whom do I tell him is calling? 319 00:19:17,070 --> 00:19:22,510 Please, tell him that we are journalists from Moscow. 320 00:19:22,590 --> 00:19:27,608 We are making a film about Vladimir Levin's case. 321 00:19:28,910 --> 00:19:33,457 Okay, I'll call Mr. Shadaev now and relate whatever he says to you. 322 00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:03,457 Hello! 323 00:20:03,637 --> 00:20:04,599 Hello, Mr. Shadaev. 324 00:20:04,679 --> 00:20:08,114 Your name is mentioned in Levin's case. 325 00:20:08,194 --> 00:20:11,053 Could you please explain why your name is mentioned there? 326 00:20:11,133 --> 00:20:12,436 DAMIR SHADAEV, BUSINESSMAN 327 00:20:12,516 --> 00:20:14,620 I've never seen or known Levin in my life. 328 00:20:14,700 --> 00:20:18,586 In this case, there was my comrade, Evgeny Korolkov. 329 00:20:19,430 --> 00:20:21,430 He wasn't much of a comrade, though. 330 00:20:21,510 --> 00:20:23,570 He was a man who bought hardware from us. 331 00:20:23,650 --> 00:20:25,856 He bought equipment. We sold goods back then. 332 00:20:25,936 --> 00:20:27,892 He amassed a great debt to us. He fled. 333 00:20:27,972 --> 00:20:30,784 He came back and said, "I'll give everything back to you. 334 00:20:30,864 --> 00:20:34,665 Give me the number of a bank account. I will send you the money." And he did. 335 00:20:34,745 --> 00:20:35,846 "I will be all right." 336 00:20:35,926 --> 00:20:39,482 Then some police officers came to me and said that the money was stolen. 337 00:20:39,562 --> 00:20:41,318 I spent a couple of months in jail. 338 00:20:41,398 --> 00:20:43,750 It was the money from Citibank. 339 00:20:43,830 --> 00:20:47,280 I don't know whether it was only from Citibank or from any other bank. 340 00:20:47,910 --> 00:20:51,960 After two months, they investigated it and said, "We are sorry. You are innocent." 341 00:20:52,590 --> 00:20:53,750 That is how it ended. 342 00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:58,350 Investigator Strigalyov mentioned a weapon consignment 343 00:20:58,430 --> 00:21:01,030 bought in Finnish hunting stores. 344 00:21:01,110 --> 00:21:04,750 I buy weapons in many countries of the world where I have been 345 00:21:04,830 --> 00:21:06,270 because I go hunting. 346 00:21:06,350 --> 00:21:09,753 I have a license for collecting weapons, for using weapons. 347 00:21:09,833 --> 00:21:12,384 For some reason, it became a part of the case files. 348 00:21:12,464 --> 00:21:17,230 Well, yeah. They came here and confiscated all my weapons. 349 00:21:17,310 --> 00:21:20,190 They believed that they were bought with Citibank money. 350 00:21:20,270 --> 00:21:22,590 I have always bought weapons with my own money. 351 00:21:22,670 --> 00:21:24,390 I buy food with my own money. 352 00:21:24,470 --> 00:21:26,640 I buy clothes with my own money. 353 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:31,270 If they had had any suspicions that these were bought with stolen money, 354 00:21:31,389 --> 00:21:33,295 I think they would have taken it away. 355 00:21:33,375 --> 00:21:35,420 They gave everything back. Of course! 356 00:21:39,217 --> 00:21:42,373 What is this? Did you smell something? A squirrel? 357 00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:50,030 Shadaev blamed Korolkov. 358 00:21:50,110 --> 00:21:51,470 "He owed me. 359 00:21:51,550 --> 00:21:54,630 "He came and said that he could repay the debt. 360 00:21:54,710 --> 00:21:57,324 "I will pay you back by a money transfer." 361 00:21:58,510 --> 00:22:02,017 I think this is partly the truth. 362 00:22:02,670 --> 00:22:08,266 But he was definitely aware that the money was stolen. 363 00:22:08,346 --> 00:22:09,213 THE LDPR PARTY 364 00:22:09,293 --> 00:22:12,409 He went to jail for 30 days and served the rest of the sentence 365 00:22:12,489 --> 00:22:13,789 under travel restrictions. 366 00:22:14,408 --> 00:22:17,030 Then he was in a hospital. 367 00:22:17,110 --> 00:22:20,670 He did all he could to avoid prison. 368 00:22:20,750 --> 00:22:24,186 And later on, at the end of the 1990s, 369 00:22:26,568 --> 00:22:28,830 he participated in a deputy election. 370 00:22:28,910 --> 00:22:35,070 I think he even ran for the governor of Leningrad Oblast or something. 371 00:22:35,150 --> 00:22:40,515 Which also helped him get out of this. 372 00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:43,950 To sweep the case under the carpet? 373 00:22:44,030 --> 00:22:46,951 To stop the prosecution against him. 374 00:22:47,706 --> 00:22:49,590 We didn't have enough evidence. 375 00:22:51,070 --> 00:22:54,510 We know very little about the main player in this story. 376 00:22:55,271 --> 00:22:57,990 He always tried not to draw extra attention to himself. 377 00:22:58,070 --> 00:23:00,770 He says that he got involved in this story by accident. 378 00:23:01,430 --> 00:23:02,355 I don't know. 379 00:23:03,030 --> 00:23:06,580 Even my lawyer said that I don't look like a man who has a lot of money. 380 00:23:07,770 --> 00:23:09,770 Especially ten millions dollars. 381 00:23:13,502 --> 00:23:15,855 Garfinkel managed to convince the British court 382 00:23:15,935 --> 00:23:19,019 that Levin was the main organizer of the Citibank robbery. 383 00:23:19,099 --> 00:23:22,456 He was extradited to the USA, where the young man admitted his guilt 384 00:23:22,536 --> 00:23:25,687 got a three-year sentence and was soon released as he had served 385 00:23:25,767 --> 00:23:28,480 almost the entire sentence during the investigation. 386 00:23:28,630 --> 00:23:31,010 He didn't look like a real criminal mastermind, 387 00:23:31,090 --> 00:23:34,915 but more like a computer geek who… 388 00:23:35,648 --> 00:23:38,110 you know, he found out about this kind of backdoor 389 00:23:38,190 --> 00:23:41,860 into the Citi financial cash management system. 390 00:23:41,940 --> 00:23:45,662 So, he really didn't kind of impress me. 391 00:23:46,524 --> 00:23:49,339 And he certainly wasn't, you know, trying to. 392 00:23:49,419 --> 00:23:52,962 He was just trying to, like, you know, say as little as he could to us 393 00:23:53,042 --> 00:23:55,035 just to get this thing, you know… 394 00:23:55,115 --> 00:23:57,521 I think, you know, get it over with and done with 395 00:23:57,601 --> 00:24:00,135 and then get the hell, you know, out of the US. 396 00:24:00,215 --> 00:24:02,624 You know, as a bad chapter in his… 397 00:24:02,704 --> 00:24:05,059 you know, his life as well. 398 00:24:06,841 --> 00:24:09,102 Vladimir Levin still lives in Saint Petersburg 399 00:24:09,182 --> 00:24:12,150 and runs a hacker-UNrelated tea and beer importing business. 400 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,790 CALLING VLADIMIR LEVIN 401 00:24:21,431 --> 00:24:22,990 - I am listening. - Hello. 402 00:24:23,070 --> 00:24:25,350 Vladimir, hello! Can you hear me well? 403 00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:27,030 I cannot hear you very well. 404 00:24:27,110 --> 00:24:29,173 I will try to increase the volume. 405 00:24:29,253 --> 00:24:30,168 Okay, try now! 406 00:24:30,248 --> 00:24:33,550 My name is Andrey Loshak, and I am the director 407 00:24:33,630 --> 00:24:37,710 of a film about the phenomenon of Russian hackers. 408 00:24:37,790 --> 00:24:39,430 Where did you get my number? 409 00:24:39,510 --> 00:24:42,017 We also know how to work with databases. 410 00:24:42,693 --> 00:24:47,110 To be honest, I am not interested at all. 411 00:24:47,190 --> 00:24:51,230 It is all old, boring, uninteresting stuff. 412 00:24:51,310 --> 00:24:58,054 I think a dead fifteen minutes of your film will be useless. 413 00:24:58,134 --> 00:25:00,990 It all happened too long ago. It is boring, uninteresting. 414 00:25:01,070 --> 00:25:03,228 Not interesting at all. That's what I think. 415 00:25:03,308 --> 00:25:05,950 It is like discussing a horse carriage 416 00:25:06,030 --> 00:25:08,728 in the times when we have Teslas on our streets. 417 00:25:08,808 --> 00:25:12,160 Nonsense! It can't be interesting to anyone. 418 00:25:18,430 --> 00:25:20,590 Come on, come on. 419 00:25:23,270 --> 00:25:24,933 Oh, little Tyoma… 420 00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:33,322 The Citibank robbery had a major influence on Yekaterina and Evgeny Korolkov's fates. 421 00:25:33,402 --> 00:25:37,013 After serving his time and after his divorce, Korolkov returned to Russia 422 00:25:37,093 --> 00:25:38,197 without money or home. 423 00:25:38,277 --> 00:25:40,486 He lives in poor conditions with his grandson 424 00:25:40,566 --> 00:25:43,516 while his daughter is trying to make it in Saint Petersburg. 425 00:25:48,914 --> 00:25:51,868 Yekaterina stayed in the USA, remarried, and divorced again. 426 00:25:51,948 --> 00:25:55,415 Over the last five years, she has been living with her biker boyfriend 427 00:25:55,495 --> 00:25:57,305 and working as a surfing instructor. 428 00:25:57,385 --> 00:26:00,688 Due to a bureaucratic mess-up, she has lived here without documents 429 00:26:00,768 --> 00:26:01,768 for all these years. 430 00:26:02,364 --> 00:26:06,023 Her daughter, who grew up in America, went to see her father 14 years ago. 431 00:26:06,103 --> 00:26:08,406 Ever since then, she hasn't been able to return 432 00:26:08,486 --> 00:26:10,593 to the country she considers her homeland. 433 00:26:10,673 --> 00:26:12,382 You have never seen your grandson? 434 00:26:12,462 --> 00:26:16,007 Only on my phone. 435 00:26:17,448 --> 00:26:18,373 Right. 436 00:26:19,795 --> 00:26:23,990 Steve Garfinkel invested lots of effort in helping Yekaterina acquire citizenship. 437 00:26:24,070 --> 00:26:27,970 But the FBI agent couldn't fight through the Immigration Service's bureaucracy. 438 00:26:30,365 --> 00:26:32,420 I think she's a good person, I think she… 439 00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:36,740 kind of learned from her past mistakes. 440 00:26:36,820 --> 00:26:39,400 I've always seen her as being very kind of upbeat. 441 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,320 I follow her on Instagram and Facebook. 442 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,759 She's always got kind of uplifting stuff, she's… 443 00:26:44,839 --> 00:26:46,639 You know, about, like, kite surfing. 444 00:26:53,865 --> 00:26:57,818 Investigator Strigalyov and his colleague went to the USA for a reciprocal visit 445 00:26:58,671 --> 00:26:59,928 at the end of the 1990s. 446 00:27:00,008 --> 00:27:01,940 It wasn't very useful for the case. 447 00:27:02,020 --> 00:27:04,444 But the trip was something to remember. 448 00:27:04,524 --> 00:27:07,208 This is me, and this is… 449 00:27:08,180 --> 00:27:09,502 Alexander Polyakov. 450 00:27:09,964 --> 00:27:15,540 This is how I looked when I was on my trip to New York. 451 00:27:15,620 --> 00:27:17,420 This is our hotel. 452 00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:21,380 I feel very grateful to our American partners 453 00:27:21,460 --> 00:27:24,180 for arranging very good accommodations for us. 454 00:27:24,260 --> 00:27:26,248 I had my own room. 455 00:27:26,328 --> 00:27:27,688 Two rooms. 456 00:27:28,300 --> 00:27:30,106 The FBI paid for their trip 457 00:27:30,186 --> 00:27:34,533 because they're going to be doing an investigation here 458 00:27:34,613 --> 00:27:36,222 to help on their end. 459 00:27:36,302 --> 00:27:39,309 Like, I went there and, you know, they helped me. 460 00:27:39,389 --> 00:27:42,081 They're going to come here and I'm going to help them. 461 00:27:42,161 --> 00:27:44,230 We had a party one night in their room. 462 00:27:44,310 --> 00:27:46,017 'Cause it was a really nice room. 463 00:27:46,097 --> 00:27:48,930 It was the same, you know, thing with bottles of vodka 464 00:27:49,010 --> 00:27:54,120 and they brought a special… Basically, it's fat, pork… 465 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,300 You know, pork fat with, you know, raw onions and… 466 00:27:57,380 --> 00:27:59,395 - Salo. - Salo, yeah, right. 467 00:27:59,475 --> 00:28:01,102 Which is a little, you know… 468 00:28:03,470 --> 00:28:05,420 different for, you know, Americans and… 469 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,860 But we had… we had a really good time. 470 00:28:09,037 --> 00:28:11,860 The Citibank system being broken into by a Russian hacker 471 00:28:11,940 --> 00:28:15,260 helped the FBI get a budget for creating special cyber squads, 472 00:28:15,340 --> 00:28:19,262 and later on, a special cyber division with 56 offices throughout the country. 473 00:28:20,497 --> 00:28:23,500 Levin's case was unique for many reasons. 474 00:28:23,580 --> 00:28:25,980 It was the first network bank robbery, 475 00:28:26,060 --> 00:28:29,075 the first international crime perpetrated by Russian hackers, 476 00:28:29,155 --> 00:28:31,458 and the only instance of such close cooperation 477 00:28:31,538 --> 00:28:34,392 between the law enforcement agencies of Russia and the USA 478 00:28:34,472 --> 00:28:36,092 in the cybercrime area. 479 00:28:47,180 --> 00:28:49,573 CHELYABINSK 480 00:29:26,350 --> 00:29:27,635 Hallelujah! 481 00:29:35,460 --> 00:29:39,146 Oh! The Washington Post, with a column about me! 482 00:29:39,900 --> 00:29:43,084 A real column about me! 483 00:29:43,164 --> 00:29:45,060 Internet Dreams Turned to Crime. 484 00:29:45,140 --> 00:29:50,008 The dreams of the internet have led to crimes, I guess. 485 00:29:50,933 --> 00:29:53,420 And there should be a big article. 486 00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:55,146 I read this in Arizona. 487 00:29:55,780 --> 00:29:59,235 Russian hackers hit the headlines in America again in 2000. 488 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,020 A programmer from Chelyabinsk, Vasily Gorshkov 489 00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:06,180 decided to cash in on the dot.com boom and founded a company called TekhNet.Ru. 490 00:30:06,260 --> 00:30:08,160 Its business was creating websites. 491 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,777 He found jobs abroad and did them in Chelyabinsk. 492 00:30:11,857 --> 00:30:14,957 A monthly profit of $100 was considered good back at that time. 493 00:30:15,641 --> 00:30:17,751 We have smart guys who can write this code. 494 00:30:17,831 --> 00:30:18,950 VASILY GORSHKOV 495 00:30:19,030 --> 00:30:22,115 And these guys didn't even necessarily have to be very smart 496 00:30:22,195 --> 00:30:26,780 because I enjoyed doing an occasional job myself. 497 00:30:26,860 --> 00:30:29,955 PHP and all. I was studying these languages. 498 00:30:30,035 --> 00:30:33,540 It didn't seem difficult. It still isn't. 499 00:30:33,620 --> 00:30:37,020 It is very easy to learn something, to write a script and execute it. 500 00:30:38,260 --> 00:30:41,220 TekhNet. Ru employed a 20-year-old computer genius 501 00:30:41,300 --> 00:30:42,300 named Alexey Ivanov. 502 00:30:42,380 --> 00:30:44,780 He became Gorshkov's right-hand man very quickly. 503 00:30:45,420 --> 00:30:48,660 Apart from developing websites, Ivanov found vulnerabilities 504 00:30:48,740 --> 00:30:50,300 in American companies' networks 505 00:30:50,380 --> 00:30:53,128 and asked $1,500 to eliminate them. 506 00:30:53,208 --> 00:30:56,590 Here is a part of the correspondence of Ivanov with an administrator 507 00:30:56,670 --> 00:30:59,119 of the Speakeasy Provider from Seattle he hacked. 508 00:30:59,244 --> 00:31:02,780 I am checking security at Speakeasy and found some holes. 509 00:31:02,860 --> 00:31:05,075 Would you like to hear more about them? 510 00:31:05,768 --> 00:31:08,049 And now, I'm looking for a job. 511 00:31:08,129 --> 00:31:10,590 Can you talk with your boss about giving me a job? 512 00:31:10,683 --> 00:31:13,767 I am not sure you would want a job here. We are pretty poor. 513 00:31:13,847 --> 00:31:16,148 I do have friends in larger companies, however. 514 00:31:16,228 --> 00:31:18,450 Microsoft, of course. Amazon. 515 00:31:18,530 --> 00:31:20,890 Amazon, hehe? Cool company. 516 00:31:20,970 --> 00:31:24,133 I stole a lot of CDs, DVDs, and books from Amazon. 517 00:31:24,213 --> 00:31:26,471 I don't have any other way to make money. 518 00:31:28,980 --> 00:31:32,151 Ivanov dreamt of being a cybersecurity professional. 519 00:31:32,860 --> 00:31:36,020 It was impossible to find such a job in Russia back then. 520 00:31:36,100 --> 00:31:40,220 Ivanov often complemented his hacks with a CV and a request to hire him. 521 00:31:40,300 --> 00:31:42,650 That was what gave the Chelyabinsk hackers away. 522 00:31:45,500 --> 00:31:48,080 SEATTLE, USA 523 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:53,146 When Ivanov stole the data for 6,000 users of a popular Seattle internet provider, 524 00:31:53,226 --> 00:31:55,841 the American Special Services started devising a plan 525 00:31:55,921 --> 00:31:57,561 to catch the Chelyabinsk hacker. 526 00:31:57,641 --> 00:32:00,255 Prosecutor Steven Schroeder was involved in the case. 527 00:32:00,335 --> 00:32:02,834 Computer crimes were his specialization. 528 00:32:02,914 --> 00:32:05,822 Since Russia didn't respond to inquiries about the hacker, 529 00:32:05,902 --> 00:32:08,213 they decided on the "lure" option. 530 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:10,280 STEVEN SCHROEDER 531 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,973 There is an undercover procedure known as the lure, 532 00:32:14,053 --> 00:32:20,220 which was a technique to trick criminals in other countries 533 00:32:20,300 --> 00:32:23,040 to come to the United States or some other country 534 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:28,168 where they could be then arrested or arrested and extradited. 535 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:35,928 The FBI in Seattle set up a fictitious Internet security company, 536 00:32:36,008 --> 00:32:37,653 which they called Invita. 537 00:32:39,413 --> 00:32:45,390 Ivanov had been advertised himself to his victims 538 00:32:45,470 --> 00:32:49,297 as a computer security expert and trying to get employment. 539 00:32:50,497 --> 00:32:53,360 So he was pretty easy to lure. 540 00:32:54,675 --> 00:32:57,380 We began to negotiate with him and then he said, 541 00:32:57,460 --> 00:33:02,391 "By the way, I want to bring my partner Gorshkov with me." 542 00:33:03,190 --> 00:33:05,740 Now, that was the first we'd ever heard of Gorshkov. 543 00:33:07,422 --> 00:33:12,370 Alexey Ivanov was a talented guy who lived in Chelyabinsk. 544 00:33:12,450 --> 00:33:16,080 He barely made a living, doing occasional jobs. 545 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,460 Well, browsing the internet was just his hobby. 546 00:33:19,540 --> 00:33:21,973 Since he had no money to pay for the services 547 00:33:22,053 --> 00:33:25,420 he might have examined the code, found holes, 548 00:33:25,500 --> 00:33:27,750 and offered to eliminate it for a certain sum. 549 00:33:28,050 --> 00:33:31,617 He approached me with a proposition, "Let's go there 550 00:33:32,220 --> 00:33:34,020 and establish a joint company." 551 00:33:34,100 --> 00:33:37,893 After this, we started creating that joint venture company 552 00:33:37,973 --> 00:33:40,140 in the area of cyber security. 553 00:33:40,220 --> 00:33:41,964 So, you took that bait. 554 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,737 You journalists might see it that way. 555 00:33:46,817 --> 00:33:48,780 As for me, I had a good time. 556 00:33:49,884 --> 00:33:53,484 And I have a story to tell. Twenty years later, you are still interested. 557 00:33:54,746 --> 00:33:55,980 Look! 558 00:33:56,060 --> 00:34:00,100 At those windows. Not at the top. The fifth floor, I guess. 559 00:34:00,180 --> 00:34:01,620 That used to be our office. 560 00:34:01,700 --> 00:34:03,740 TekhNet. Ru was there, right? 561 00:34:03,820 --> 00:34:05,780 Yeah. We had our servers there. 562 00:34:05,860 --> 00:34:08,260 Real servers, real workstations. 563 00:34:08,340 --> 00:34:10,700 The most famous photos of me and Ivanov… 564 00:34:10,780 --> 00:34:14,380 The guys told us to send them photos to be able to recognize us. 565 00:34:14,460 --> 00:34:19,161 We found the corner of our office that looked the shabbiest. 566 00:34:19,241 --> 00:34:20,747 It was near the bathroom door. 567 00:34:20,827 --> 00:34:24,082 The door frames were all cracked, and we took photos against them. 568 00:34:24,162 --> 00:34:26,378 You took these pictures for the Americans? 569 00:34:26,458 --> 00:34:29,300 - Yeah. - Why did you choose the shabbiest corner? 570 00:34:29,380 --> 00:34:33,100 The Americans thought that we were poor and miserable. 571 00:34:33,180 --> 00:34:34,781 And we wanted to show them that. 572 00:34:34,861 --> 00:34:35,738 Hey, guys! 573 00:34:43,475 --> 00:34:45,980 A cyber security expert named Raymond Pompon 574 00:34:46,060 --> 00:34:48,020 was involved in the special operation 575 00:34:48,100 --> 00:34:50,933 for fishing technical details out of the Russian hackers. 576 00:34:51,013 --> 00:34:53,469 For that, he was to impersonate an Invita employee 577 00:34:53,549 --> 00:34:55,852 in an office that was rented for this occasion. 578 00:34:55,932 --> 00:34:58,336 It was, like, a big deal for the FBI at the time. 579 00:34:58,416 --> 00:34:59,266 RAYMOND POMPON 580 00:34:59,346 --> 00:35:01,813 They actually had a helicopter flying over Seattle 581 00:35:01,893 --> 00:35:03,764 watching the car leaving the airport. 582 00:35:03,844 --> 00:35:07,860 A lot of money was spent on this because this was going to be the FBI's big bust, 583 00:35:07,940 --> 00:35:10,750 and they were really going to send a message to the world 584 00:35:10,830 --> 00:35:13,580 that, like, the FBI can get you no matter where you are. 585 00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:18,660 TekhNet. Ru is a play on words in Russian. 586 00:35:18,740 --> 00:35:22,820 It means, "I'm not rubbing those things. But I'm rubbing these things." 587 00:35:22,900 --> 00:35:23,940 Got it? 588 00:35:24,020 --> 00:35:26,826 We are not rubbing those. We are rubbing these. 589 00:35:32,620 --> 00:35:35,137 I'm not rubbing those ones. I'm rubbing other ones. 590 00:35:36,140 --> 00:35:37,457 It's a joke. 591 00:35:38,284 --> 00:35:40,871 It's a play of words. 592 00:35:43,159 --> 00:35:45,017 The special operation was secretly filmed. 593 00:35:45,097 --> 00:35:46,939 The footage was to be a part of the evidence 594 00:35:47,019 --> 00:35:49,806 that was to demonstrate the Chelyabinsk hackers' guilt in court. 595 00:35:49,886 --> 00:35:51,540 And then I remember they showed up. 596 00:35:51,620 --> 00:35:54,314 And the first thing that surprised me was how young they were. 597 00:35:54,394 --> 00:35:57,661 Although, I had told the agents, "You know what you're going to see? 598 00:35:57,741 --> 00:36:00,707 You're going to see one technical guy and one business guy." 599 00:36:00,787 --> 00:36:03,052 That's kind of how in the tech world we do it. 600 00:36:03,132 --> 00:36:04,966 When you send somebody to a customer, 601 00:36:05,046 --> 00:36:08,393 you always have, like, the nerd and then the guy who seals the deal. 602 00:36:08,473 --> 00:36:09,983 And that was kind of the role. 603 00:36:10,063 --> 00:36:13,874 Alexey was the technical guy, and Vasiliy was, like, the one making the deal. 604 00:36:13,954 --> 00:36:14,905 CHELYABINSK AIRPORT 605 00:36:14,985 --> 00:36:16,640 On Thursday, we left Chelyabinsk. 606 00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:18,980 We arrived in Seattle on Saturday. 607 00:36:19,060 --> 00:36:20,980 We didn't sleep for a minute. 608 00:36:21,060 --> 00:36:24,035 We saw that Seattle did exist. 609 00:36:24,580 --> 00:36:30,471 Right after they met us in the airport, I had a feeling that they were shady guys. 610 00:36:30,551 --> 00:36:32,980 I didn't think we would work with them. 611 00:36:33,060 --> 00:36:37,220 They asked us where to buy bogus money. 612 00:36:37,300 --> 00:36:40,220 Things like that. 613 00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:44,764 And I was exhausted and didn't feel well. 614 00:36:44,844 --> 00:36:46,657 We arrived. 615 00:36:47,235 --> 00:36:50,780 "We would like to go to a hotel. Should we book our rooms ourselves?" 616 00:36:50,860 --> 00:36:54,512 "Don't worry, we booked rooms for you. But first, let's go to the office." 617 00:36:54,592 --> 00:36:56,979 "What office? We haven't slept since Thursday." 618 00:36:57,059 --> 00:36:58,940 "No, let's go to the office!" 619 00:36:59,020 --> 00:37:01,093 We went there. There was a room. 620 00:37:01,795 --> 00:37:06,302 - So they didn't even let your sleep? - Bastards! 621 00:37:07,268 --> 00:37:09,030 But when I started talking to them, 622 00:37:09,110 --> 00:37:11,310 I realized that they were just geeks like me. 623 00:37:11,390 --> 00:37:12,940 We weren't that much different, 624 00:37:13,573 --> 00:37:17,033 except for they seemed to have, like, no respect for the rules at all, 625 00:37:17,113 --> 00:37:20,357 but I realized that that might've been culturally dependent, too. 626 00:37:20,437 --> 00:37:23,649 Because I had grown up in a place where there was a lot of rules, 627 00:37:23,729 --> 00:37:26,390 and they grew up in a place where probably rules were… 628 00:37:26,470 --> 00:37:29,020 meant to be broken in order to survive. 629 00:37:29,100 --> 00:37:32,330 I can't call myself a hacker. 630 00:37:32,410 --> 00:37:33,768 I'm no hacker. 631 00:37:40,897 --> 00:37:43,137 No, it's not hacking, actually. 632 00:37:43,940 --> 00:37:45,200 But a sort of business. 633 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:50,880 Right after we came there, I went to check my e-mail on my server. 634 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:55,022 The server was physically standing in the Chelyabinsk office. 635 00:37:56,020 --> 00:37:57,860 I logged in. I had a look. 636 00:37:57,940 --> 00:38:02,888 They were like, "Show us how you hack. Show us how you do this and that." 637 00:38:02,968 --> 00:38:05,248 We were like, "What are you talking about?" 638 00:38:05,328 --> 00:38:06,940 They say, "Show us how you hack." 639 00:38:07,020 --> 00:38:09,620 I was trying to do the opposite: to show them our flash. 640 00:38:09,700 --> 00:38:11,653 Flash was trendy at that time. 641 00:38:11,733 --> 00:38:15,528 They were like, "Yes, that is pretty. But show us how you hack." 642 00:38:16,773 --> 00:38:20,230 We had a laptop set up with a keyboard logger on it. 643 00:38:20,310 --> 00:38:22,690 They said, well, let us show you. 644 00:38:22,770 --> 00:38:24,888 We can't do any hacking here because, you know, 645 00:38:24,968 --> 00:38:27,250 this is America and we're worried about the FBI. 646 00:38:27,330 --> 00:38:29,230 To which everyone in the room is like… 647 00:38:29,790 --> 00:38:33,635 But what they did is they logged into their server back in Russia 648 00:38:34,444 --> 00:38:36,020 and pulled down some tools, 649 00:38:36,100 --> 00:38:38,787 to me they weren't actually very sophisticated tools. 650 00:38:38,867 --> 00:38:41,680 Later on it turned out because they had done that they'd actually… 651 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:43,315 we'd captured their password 652 00:38:43,395 --> 00:38:46,115 that they used to log in to their site to bring their thing down, 653 00:38:46,195 --> 00:38:49,020 which became a big issue in the case later on. 654 00:38:49,100 --> 00:38:52,860 Later on, when they started going on and on about bogus money, 655 00:38:52,940 --> 00:38:55,220 I was like, "Okay… 656 00:38:55,300 --> 00:38:58,300 "Guys, you seem to have read too much about the Russian mafia. 657 00:38:58,380 --> 00:39:00,595 "You have the wrong idea. 658 00:39:01,130 --> 00:39:02,488 "We are just IT guys." 659 00:39:02,568 --> 00:39:05,786 Even though nobody called us IT guys, just computer guys. 660 00:39:06,604 --> 00:39:09,813 Right after we left that room, 661 00:39:09,893 --> 00:39:12,820 we go down to the parking lot, and it is all full of police. 662 00:39:12,900 --> 00:39:16,000 All the Washington State Police, and some came from California. 663 00:39:39,479 --> 00:39:42,995 Gorshkov and Ivanov were immediately separated and sent to different jails. 664 00:39:43,075 --> 00:39:44,810 They never saw each other again. 665 00:39:45,786 --> 00:39:50,900 Accessing his server on an FBI computer was Gorshkov's fatal mistake. 666 00:39:50,980 --> 00:39:53,964 Before that, the FBI only had the proof of Ivanov's guilt. 667 00:39:54,860 --> 00:39:58,700 They accessed this computer that physically was here, in Chelyabinsk, 668 00:39:58,780 --> 00:40:00,060 in the Russian Federation, 669 00:40:00,140 --> 00:40:02,780 and started copying files as fast as they could 670 00:40:02,860 --> 00:40:04,613 without understanding what they were. 671 00:40:04,693 --> 00:40:08,580 After that, they went to a judge to ask for a warrant 672 00:40:08,660 --> 00:40:10,763 to search the computers located in Russia. 673 00:40:10,843 --> 00:40:12,483 But they couldn't obtain this warrant. 674 00:40:12,563 --> 00:40:14,949 It is in Russia, which is in a different jurisdiction. 675 00:40:15,029 --> 00:40:18,340 Basically, they committed a crime in Russia. 676 00:40:18,420 --> 00:40:22,140 And a criminal case file was started in Russia. 677 00:40:22,220 --> 00:40:27,733 About premeditated damage to property and unauthorized access. 678 00:40:33,410 --> 00:40:38,488 They opened their own case in Russia against American government 679 00:40:38,568 --> 00:40:42,340 for accessing Gorshkov's data without his permission. 680 00:40:42,420 --> 00:40:45,210 - Have you heard about it? - I've heard about it, yes. Yeah. 681 00:40:45,290 --> 00:40:49,048 I have a copy of a headline on a Moscow newspaper. 682 00:40:49,768 --> 00:40:51,430 What do you think about it? 683 00:40:51,510 --> 00:40:53,893 Well, I think I won't go on vacation to Russia. 684 00:40:56,684 --> 00:41:03,180 In our file dumpster, they found heaps of scripts that open someone's e-mail 685 00:41:03,260 --> 00:41:05,306 or close someone else's e-mail. 686 00:41:05,386 --> 00:41:07,973 Several catalogs with titles like "F…ck eBay." 687 00:41:08,053 --> 00:41:10,460 I don't remember if there was "F…ck PayPal." 688 00:41:10,540 --> 00:41:12,380 Elon Musk was respected even back then, 689 00:41:12,460 --> 00:41:14,740 so "F…ck PayPal" might not have been there. 690 00:41:14,820 --> 00:41:17,180 What matters is, there were files with such names. 691 00:41:17,260 --> 00:41:19,422 I think that's why I lost my case. 692 00:41:19,502 --> 00:41:23,260 When the jury saw that "F…ck," they didn't even want to look further. 693 00:41:23,340 --> 00:41:26,657 And they even couldn't understand what these scripts did. 694 00:41:28,420 --> 00:41:31,288 Data found on Gorshkov's server enabled the prosecutor 695 00:41:31,368 --> 00:41:33,600 to lay a new accusation against the hackers. 696 00:41:34,670 --> 00:41:37,724 What they were doing they were scanning IP addresses 697 00:41:37,804 --> 00:41:39,950 looking for certain port numbers. 698 00:41:40,030 --> 00:41:44,910 Port numbers identified processes or applications that were running, 699 00:41:44,990 --> 00:41:48,737 and there were some known vulnerabilities in several of them 700 00:41:48,817 --> 00:41:50,524 and they simply exploited them. 701 00:41:51,230 --> 00:41:52,960 PayPal was not hacked 702 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,620 but what they did was they used 703 00:41:55,700 --> 00:41:59,330 some web-based e-mail companies to establish e-mail accounts. 704 00:41:59,410 --> 00:42:02,980 They would then associate those accounts with stolen credit card numbers 705 00:42:03,060 --> 00:42:05,850 and open PayPal accounts with that information. 706 00:42:05,930 --> 00:42:08,755 They would then purchase goods 707 00:42:08,835 --> 00:42:14,160 either through eBay or other online merchants, 708 00:42:14,240 --> 00:42:17,502 and pay for them through PayPal using the stolen credit cards. 709 00:42:18,506 --> 00:42:21,102 Those goods were then shipped to Kazakhstan. 710 00:42:22,260 --> 00:42:25,400 They had actually built a very elaborate system 711 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,360 of making use of eBay and PayPal 712 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,940 to launder credit cards and buy things online. 713 00:42:32,020 --> 00:42:34,690 In some ways I think they were pioneers in the field. 714 00:42:34,770 --> 00:42:38,357 Oftentimes when you're following cybercrime, it's like follow the money. 715 00:42:38,437 --> 00:42:39,960 Follow how they're making the money 716 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:41,910 'cause that's where you'll see the innovation. 717 00:42:41,990 --> 00:42:45,270 It's like Bitcoin sort of drove ransomware and things like that. 718 00:42:45,350 --> 00:42:47,345 So, these guys, they were early to figure that out 719 00:42:47,425 --> 00:42:50,132 and early to really capitalize on that, so… 720 00:42:51,820 --> 00:42:54,604 Unlike Ivanov, Gorshkov refused to admit guilt and cooperate 721 00:42:54,684 --> 00:42:56,140 with the investigators. 722 00:42:56,220 --> 00:42:59,780 He faced from 25 to 100 years in prison: this impressive term 723 00:42:59,860 --> 00:43:04,648 was based on the damage estimated by the investigators as being $25,000,000: 724 00:43:04,728 --> 00:43:08,750 $500 per stolen card with 50,000 cards in total. 725 00:43:09,550 --> 00:43:12,410 The defense expert, however, proved that the investigators 726 00:43:12,490 --> 00:43:15,810 mistook any 16-digit sequences found by the FBI agents 727 00:43:15,890 --> 00:43:19,140 on the server in Chelyabinsk for card numbers. 728 00:43:19,220 --> 00:43:21,080 We go to the courtroom. 729 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:22,133 Ivanov isn't there. 730 00:43:22,850 --> 00:43:27,973 They state the damage. Twenty-five million. 731 00:43:28,053 --> 00:43:31,777 I can feel my prison reputation getting a boost. Because it's so… 732 00:43:32,453 --> 00:43:36,690 There comes my expert who, as I was thinking, 733 00:43:36,770 --> 00:43:40,590 was working not for me but for the government, 734 00:43:40,670 --> 00:43:45,404 and he says, "Hang on, why did you decide that these are credit cards?" 735 00:43:45,484 --> 00:43:48,234 At that moment, I got that he was really working for me. 736 00:43:48,631 --> 00:43:51,610 And the judge goes, "Do you have any more evidence?" 737 00:43:51,690 --> 00:43:55,120 And that was it. They immediately wrote off that twenty-five million. 738 00:43:57,410 --> 00:43:59,570 As a result, instead of twenty-five years, 739 00:43:59,650 --> 00:44:02,945 Gorshkov was sentenced to three years, after which he was deported to Russia. 740 00:44:03,025 --> 00:44:05,182 Prosecutor Schroeder was disappointed. 741 00:44:05,262 --> 00:44:07,120 We were disappointed in the sentence. 742 00:44:08,488 --> 00:44:09,920 We thought it was low. 743 00:44:10,820 --> 00:44:13,610 Judge Coughenour was an interesting man. 744 00:44:13,690 --> 00:44:15,760 He's a federal judge, and he had 745 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,000 worked in an international organization with Russia 746 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:24,435 in developing or looking at the judicial system in Russia. 747 00:44:25,297 --> 00:44:27,660 So, he was fond of Russians, 748 00:44:27,740 --> 00:44:31,080 and he had a lot of sympathy for these young people 749 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,870 who really didn't have a lot of opportunity, 750 00:44:33,950 --> 00:44:36,990 where, you know, buying a used car was a luxury. 751 00:44:37,070 --> 00:44:39,930 He had a lot of sympathy with that, and he… 752 00:44:40,010 --> 00:44:44,275 He gave Gorshkov what we thought was a lenient sentence. 753 00:44:49,884 --> 00:44:54,330 This was during the first big web boom out before the burst, 754 00:44:54,410 --> 00:44:57,360 and there was all these companies were just exploding. 755 00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,940 Technical skills were super valuable. 756 00:45:00,020 --> 00:45:02,730 There were bidding wars for people with talent. 757 00:45:02,810 --> 00:45:05,635 And, so, to be somewhere, like, in Chelyabinsk 758 00:45:05,715 --> 00:45:07,671 and see that and not have that… 759 00:45:07,784 --> 00:45:10,968 You know, that could definitely sort of cloud your mind and go, like, 760 00:45:11,048 --> 00:45:13,690 "Wow, I want a part of that. How can I become part of that? 761 00:45:13,770 --> 00:45:16,977 Why not me? I may know more than these guys." So… 762 00:45:17,804 --> 00:45:20,050 That's what I saw from them and I actually felt bad. 763 00:45:20,130 --> 00:45:22,080 I can understand. You want to do this. 764 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,780 I like to build, I like to do these things, and it's… 765 00:45:25,860 --> 00:45:28,040 You can't and so here's a way to do it. 766 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,084 And it's unfortunate this what it ended up. 767 00:45:33,730 --> 00:45:37,300 Having returned to Chelyabinsk, Gorshkov tried various professions. 768 00:45:37,380 --> 00:45:40,620 In 2010, he decided to run for the local legislative assembly. 769 00:45:41,475 --> 00:45:44,140 For that, he founded the Townspeople Social Movement. 770 00:45:45,857 --> 00:45:48,820 This is the focus of attention for the deputy candidate 771 00:45:48,900 --> 00:45:50,346 Vasily Gorshkov. 772 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,595 Making the residential areas more comfortable and green. 773 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,355 Controlling the quality of utility services. 774 00:45:59,420 --> 00:46:01,697 Supporting mothers and children. 775 00:46:01,777 --> 00:46:03,128 YEKATERINA TOMILOVA, A MOM-TO-BE 776 00:46:03,208 --> 00:46:04,933 Gorshkov focuses on mothers' issues. 777 00:46:05,013 --> 00:46:07,940 The issues of single parents, big and poor families. 778 00:46:08,020 --> 00:46:10,220 We are voting for Vasily Gorshkov. 779 00:46:10,300 --> 00:46:12,150 Mine is the politics of real actions. 780 00:46:12,631 --> 00:46:13,930 For Gorshkov! 781 00:46:14,010 --> 00:46:15,191 For the townspeople! 782 00:46:18,420 --> 00:46:22,070 As expected, Gorshkov lost the election to the United Russia candidate. 783 00:46:22,150 --> 00:46:24,115 Other attempts to cooperate with the government 784 00:46:24,195 --> 00:46:26,020 weren't successful either. 785 00:46:26,100 --> 00:46:31,340 That is what I don't like about our officials and deputies. 786 00:46:31,420 --> 00:46:35,224 I have never hidden my story. I am not proud of it. 787 00:46:35,304 --> 00:46:38,120 I'm not hiding it because I believe that I got there by accident. 788 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:39,520 I really did. 789 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:45,075 But any time I get in contact with any state entity, 790 00:46:45,155 --> 00:46:51,980 they say, "Oh, this will come to no good. Let us think about it," and so on. 791 00:46:52,060 --> 00:46:54,560 Is this like a brand you can't remove? 792 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:56,471 Yes. 793 00:46:56,551 --> 00:46:57,940 It never goes away. 794 00:46:58,020 --> 00:47:01,173 I think it is double hypocrisy. 795 00:47:01,253 --> 00:47:07,128 The very same people might be saying, "Yeah, you did great in that story. 796 00:47:07,208 --> 00:47:09,715 You fought back against the Americans." 797 00:47:10,462 --> 00:47:14,980 In the next sentence, "Hold on, how can we do that?" 798 00:47:15,060 --> 00:47:16,764 Well, you can't. 799 00:47:18,700 --> 00:47:21,990 All that was left from the prison epic is this box with documents 800 00:47:22,070 --> 00:47:24,160 that Gorshkov managed to take from the USA 801 00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:25,760 and now keeps in his garage. 802 00:47:27,111 --> 00:47:29,040 These are the trial transcriptions. 803 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,200 Here is Gorshkov, the defendant. 804 00:47:32,140 --> 00:47:33,448 Washington. And so on… 805 00:47:34,311 --> 00:47:36,420 Steve Schroeder, Floyd Short. 806 00:47:36,500 --> 00:47:37,600 That's it. 807 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,031 Robert Apgood. He is a good guy. 808 00:47:41,111 --> 00:47:42,670 He was the computer expert. 809 00:47:43,340 --> 00:47:48,100 I have kept all the papers. I have to arrange them neatly 810 00:47:48,180 --> 00:47:52,540 and then burn them neatly because after twenty years, if nobody requests them, 811 00:47:52,620 --> 00:47:55,040 you won't be reading them either, guys. 812 00:47:59,620 --> 00:48:03,780 Please, make sure to thank that expert who did the great job of figuring it all out. 813 00:48:03,860 --> 00:48:06,140 I thought that that expert was against me. 814 00:48:06,220 --> 00:48:10,300 But he eventually showed that I didn't have the twenty-five million, 815 00:48:10,380 --> 00:48:14,257 as if I had stolen twenty-five million, I would be sentenced to twenty years. 816 00:48:15,020 --> 00:48:18,500 Quite to the contrary, he sent money to my family here 817 00:48:18,580 --> 00:48:20,090 because they were in hardship. 818 00:48:20,170 --> 00:48:24,680 He participated in a multi-million dollar trial, yet he helped, 819 00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,315 he sent them some decent money during that time. 820 00:48:27,395 --> 00:48:30,780 I can't find the proof now, but they really lived off that. 821 00:48:30,860 --> 00:48:33,220 - Did you ask him? - I didn't even know about it. 822 00:48:33,300 --> 00:48:35,208 I've never even talked to him. 823 00:48:35,288 --> 00:48:40,420 If he, Rob Apgood, hears this, I will be sincerely grateful. 824 00:48:40,500 --> 00:48:45,780 He transformed the way I saw people, Americans included 825 00:48:45,860 --> 00:48:50,180 because when I was on trial, 826 00:48:50,260 --> 00:48:52,100 naturally, I was very angry. 827 00:48:52,180 --> 00:48:55,502 But then I looked at them and thought, "They're all just people." 828 00:49:03,937 --> 00:49:05,146 This is gifts. 829 00:49:05,710 --> 00:49:09,020 - Yeah, it's very nice. - Black caviar and vodka. 830 00:49:09,100 --> 00:49:11,260 - Yes, very nice. - Typical Russian present. 831 00:49:11,340 --> 00:49:14,124 - Yes, very nice. - It's for Vasiliy Gorshkov. 832 00:49:16,266 --> 00:49:21,111 Vasya was looking at about 25 to 100 years of imprisonment. 833 00:49:21,586 --> 00:49:23,271 ROBERT APGOOD CYBER SECURITY EXPERT 834 00:49:23,351 --> 00:49:26,090 We did an excellent job as the legal team, 835 00:49:26,170 --> 00:49:30,080 we got it down to three years with credit for time served. 836 00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,826 And he'd already spent 22 months then. 837 00:49:32,906 --> 00:49:35,290 He always struck me as a very forthright person. 838 00:49:35,370 --> 00:49:39,671 I presented some fairly damning evidence to him, 839 00:49:39,751 --> 00:49:43,120 and he admitted that he knew about it, and I thought, 840 00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,271 “I got an honest client. That's rare.” 841 00:49:47,431 --> 00:49:52,453 I knew he had a newborn child, a daughter, I believe. 842 00:49:53,410 --> 00:49:55,350 I spoke to his brother and he said, 843 00:49:55,430 --> 00:50:00,382 “Well, she's having difficulty because she needs medicine for the baby and whatnot 844 00:50:00,462 --> 00:50:02,702 and they couldn't afford it.” So… 845 00:50:03,555 --> 00:50:06,568 I sent money over to them to take care of the child. 846 00:50:06,648 --> 00:50:08,231 - Your own money? - Yes. 847 00:50:09,866 --> 00:50:12,106 - Do you remember how much? - No. 848 00:50:12,986 --> 00:50:14,410 Doesn't matter. 849 00:50:14,490 --> 00:50:17,360 Did you do these things often with your clients? 850 00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,340 Never before, never since, no. 851 00:50:20,420 --> 00:50:22,275 - Just once with Gorshkov? - Yes. 852 00:50:23,022 --> 00:50:23,890 Unbelievable. 853 00:50:23,970 --> 00:50:25,587 I don't think children should suffer 854 00:50:25,667 --> 00:50:28,084 because of wrong doings of their parents. 855 00:50:29,500 --> 00:50:30,968 I have a… 856 00:50:31,048 --> 00:50:32,880 strong belief in God. 857 00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,515 I'm an ordained minister as well and have been since 1969. 858 00:50:37,230 --> 00:50:40,430 So, I look at people from the perspective of 859 00:50:40,510 --> 00:50:45,182 what would a good person do if God expected them to take action. 860 00:50:45,911 --> 00:50:48,248 And… that's what motivated me. 861 00:50:53,688 --> 00:50:57,700 Gorshkov owes the US Government over $60,000. 862 00:50:57,780 --> 00:50:59,980 That is the estimated damage for things bought 863 00:51:00,060 --> 00:51:03,100 under forged accounts and sold in Russia. 864 00:51:03,180 --> 00:51:06,180 A businessman from the Urals, Andrey Tkachenko, 865 00:51:06,260 --> 00:51:09,700 was among the people who purchased the goods, no extra questions asked. 866 00:51:09,780 --> 00:51:11,580 We were working with them a lot. 867 00:51:11,660 --> 00:51:15,380 They sold us disks a little cheaper than the licensed sellers. 868 00:51:15,460 --> 00:51:17,020 But they were still authentic? 869 00:51:17,100 --> 00:51:20,700 Yes. It was evident that they were from America with all the labels. 870 00:51:20,780 --> 00:51:24,780 And American disks are very different from European ones, for instance. 871 00:51:24,860 --> 00:51:27,500 It was evident that they came from America. 872 00:51:27,580 --> 00:51:31,780 I think he also bought phones on the internet. 873 00:51:31,860 --> 00:51:34,220 Because we had started dealing in phones by then, 874 00:51:34,300 --> 00:51:36,340 and he also brought us phones. 875 00:51:36,420 --> 00:51:38,940 - For money? - Yeah. Why not? 876 00:51:39,020 --> 00:51:43,220 Motorola was considered a good brand back then. 877 00:51:43,300 --> 00:51:46,260 Did you convert, or "encash", money from PayPal? 878 00:51:46,340 --> 00:51:48,020 We did encash some money. 879 00:51:48,100 --> 00:51:51,431 But the sum wasn't anything like twenty million. 880 00:51:52,017 --> 00:51:56,140 I, personally, don't care about those Americans who became his victims. 881 00:51:56,220 --> 00:51:58,260 He stole there and made investments here. 882 00:51:58,340 --> 00:52:01,502 Now, it's the reverse. They steal here and invest there. 883 00:52:01,582 --> 00:52:04,453 Of course, there is a difference. 884 00:52:05,580 --> 00:52:07,777 If Vasily hadn't gone there, 885 00:52:07,857 --> 00:52:13,217 he would have got a million cards. 886 00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,320 He would have handed each Russian an American card. 887 00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,100 "Here! Take it!" It would have been great. 888 00:52:27,608 --> 00:52:29,840 Prosecutor Steve Schroeder, after retiring, 889 00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,740 wrote a book on the Chelyabinsk hacker case, called The Lure. 890 00:52:33,820 --> 00:52:36,580 You know, this case was a huge deal 891 00:52:36,660 --> 00:52:40,200 for the computer security profession. 892 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,960 - Why? - Well, because… 893 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,582 The bad guys got caught, which they often don't, 894 00:52:45,662 --> 00:52:48,150 especially when they're coming from a foreign country. 895 00:52:48,230 --> 00:52:50,580 And it just turned out well for them. 896 00:52:50,660 --> 00:52:56,800 This was the first large hacking case that actually went to trial. 897 00:52:58,026 --> 00:53:03,090 What that meant was that all the evidence was public, 898 00:53:03,170 --> 00:53:04,897 and could be put in a book. 899 00:53:05,591 --> 00:53:09,057 Steve Schroeder, he wrote a book about this case. 900 00:53:09,137 --> 00:53:12,080 He didn't say nice things about me but that's okay. 901 00:53:12,853 --> 00:53:14,586 They presented a good case. 902 00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:19,777 They were dispassionate, they were doing their jobs, 903 00:53:19,857 --> 00:53:22,097 and they did it fairly well. 904 00:53:23,413 --> 00:53:24,844 We just did ours better. 905 00:53:36,051 --> 00:53:37,724 That was the point of the case. 906 00:53:37,804 --> 00:53:41,220 To show… Like, we could stop, you know, people in Russia 907 00:53:41,300 --> 00:53:44,097 from hacking by capturing them and arresting them. 908 00:53:44,177 --> 00:53:46,820 So, it was really meant to be a big statement by the FBI 909 00:53:46,900 --> 00:53:49,315 and they put a lot of thought behind this. 910 00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:58,248 It failed because the case went to prosecution in September 2001. 911 00:53:59,546 --> 00:54:03,333 You know, soon after that the FBI sort of shifted priorities to terrorism. 912 00:54:06,275 --> 00:54:08,980 Gorshkov's associate Alexey Ivanov, after serving his sentence, 913 00:54:09,060 --> 00:54:12,702 stayed in the USA, which is surprising since they usually deport Russian hackers 914 00:54:12,782 --> 00:54:14,097 with a permanent ban. 915 00:54:14,177 --> 00:54:17,540 We don't know whether he works for the American company he dreamed of 916 00:54:17,620 --> 00:54:18,560 or for special services. 917 00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:20,300 We couldn't reach Ivanov. 918 00:54:20,380 --> 00:54:24,260 After we contacted him on LinkedIn, he deleted his account. 919 00:54:24,340 --> 00:54:25,911 I get that he made a deal. 920 00:54:25,991 --> 00:54:29,860 He must have been a valuable expert for their special services 921 00:54:29,940 --> 00:54:31,220 once he stayed there. 922 00:54:31,300 --> 00:54:34,500 I don't know. And nobody told me why they didn't let me talk to him. 923 00:54:34,580 --> 00:54:36,460 Why haven't you talked to him since then? 924 00:54:36,540 --> 00:54:39,460 I can't say that I was angry at him or felt irritation. 925 00:54:39,540 --> 00:54:42,020 Of course, I didn't like some things. 926 00:54:42,100 --> 00:54:44,800 But on a bigger scale, we just got unlucky. 927 00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:46,580 It could have happened to anyone. 928 00:54:46,660 --> 00:54:49,848 Gorshkov and Ivanov's case was the FBI's first large investigation 929 00:54:49,928 --> 00:54:52,062 against Russian hackers in the twenty-first century 930 00:54:52,142 --> 00:54:54,942 despite damages that seem ridiculously small in our times. 931 00:54:55,022 --> 00:54:58,780 The Americans thought that a show-trial would stop a growing wave 932 00:54:58,860 --> 00:55:01,300 of cybercrime from post-Soviet countries. 933 00:55:01,380 --> 00:55:05,644 As we know well now, their hopes weren't destined to be fulfilled. 75428

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