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District attorney's
office, Edder speaking.
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Yes, hello. My wife just
gave me some information
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00:00:11,553 --> 00:00:15,807
that she's been living with
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00:00:15,849 --> 00:00:20,020
for some time. When she
was eight years old,
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00:00:20,061 --> 00:00:24,024
she saw a murder.
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00:00:24,065 --> 00:00:25,859
I see.
7
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It-- the murderer was
somebody that she...
8
00:00:31,072 --> 00:00:33,241
...knows quite well.
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The murderer
or the victim?
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00:00:35,243 --> 00:00:36,578
Murderer and the victim.
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- I see.
- Both.
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00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:44,210
- This was 20 years ago.
- So it's been a while.
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The case was never closed.
14
00:00:46,588 --> 00:00:49,549
Do you know
the name of the suspect?
15
00:00:49,591 --> 00:00:52,802
- Yes, I do.
- Could you give me that?
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00:00:52,844 --> 00:00:56,765
- Okay...
- His name is George Franklin.
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00:00:56,806 --> 00:00:58,516
Okay.
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It's her father.
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The 1969
murder of a young girl
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in the San Francisco
area may well have remained
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00:01:43,686 --> 00:01:46,106
a mystery forever
were it not for
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00:01:46,147 --> 00:01:49,317
the haunting memories
of her best friend.
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00:01:51,277 --> 00:01:53,947
Police had given
up hope for solving
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the murder until a crucial
witness stepped forward.
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00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,044
It was a young
woman named Eileen Franklin
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00:02:08,086 --> 00:02:11,965
who said that she suddenly
remembered that when she was
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00:02:12,006 --> 00:02:14,300
eight years old, she witnessed
her father, George Franklin,
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00:02:14,342 --> 00:02:16,553
molest and murder
her best friend.
29
00:02:16,594 --> 00:02:19,639
haunting vocalization
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It's a murder
case that pits daughter
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against father.
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A case built
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on the daughter's repressed
memories from her childhood.
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Some psychologists
say it is quite possible
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00:02:44,539 --> 00:02:47,292
Eileen buried such
a traumatic memory,
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00:02:47,876 --> 00:02:52,380
and anything that caused that
painful memory to resurface.
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00:03:08,229 --> 00:03:11,107
- Morning, ladies and gentlemen.
- The record will reflect
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the presence of the defendant,
the counsel and the people
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represented. Ms. Tipton,
you may call another witness.
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00:03:15,987 --> 00:03:17,655
- Thank you, your honor.
- Our next witness
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00:03:17,697 --> 00:03:19,741
is Eileen Franklin-Lipsker.
42
00:03:20,325 --> 00:03:22,368
Can you come
all the way forward
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00:03:22,410 --> 00:03:24,704
to the witness stand, please?
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00:03:26,998 --> 00:03:29,209
You do solemnly swear that the
testimony you're about to give
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00:03:29,250 --> 00:03:32,170
will be the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth,
46
00:03:32,212 --> 00:03:33,922
- so help you God?
- Yes.
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00:03:39,802 --> 00:03:42,931
Eileen, how old are you?
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Twenty-nine.
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00:03:44,891 --> 00:03:46,601
- Are you married?
- Yes.
50
00:03:46,643 --> 00:03:48,561
- And what city do you live in?
- Canoga Park.
51
00:03:48,603 --> 00:03:49,938
Do you have children?
52
00:03:49,979 --> 00:03:53,191
- Yes.
- What are their ages and gender?
53
00:03:53,233 --> 00:03:56,819
My daughter is six and a half
and my son is three and a half.
54
00:03:58,780 --> 00:04:00,406
Do you have
brothers and sisters?
55
00:04:00,448 --> 00:04:01,950
Yes, I do.
56
00:04:01,991 --> 00:04:03,701
And how many
sisters do you have?
57
00:04:03,743 --> 00:04:05,495
I have three sisters.
58
00:04:05,536 --> 00:04:08,998
- And their names are...?
- Kate, Janice and Diana.
59
00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,918
- And your brother is George Jr?
- Yes.
60
00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,212
Where do you fall
in the birth order?
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00:04:14,254 --> 00:04:15,922
I'm in the middle.
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00:04:15,964 --> 00:04:18,174
Of the five
children, you are number three?
63
00:04:18,216 --> 00:04:19,592
Yes.
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00:04:28,059 --> 00:04:30,019
What is
your mother's name?
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Leah.
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00:04:32,063 --> 00:04:34,107
And is your father
present in court?
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00:04:34,148 --> 00:04:35,525
Yes.
68
00:04:48,788 --> 00:04:52,333
Had about a 15-year career
in the law before
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00:04:52,375 --> 00:04:54,168
I got into writing books.
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00:04:56,004 --> 00:04:58,256
My agent calls one day and said,
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00:04:58,298 --> 00:05:00,550
"Have you seen this story about
the repressed memory?
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00:05:00,591 --> 00:05:03,011
The women claimed to recover
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00:05:03,052 --> 00:05:05,513
a memory of her father
murdering her playmate.
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00:05:05,555 --> 00:05:07,265
"I said, no, I hadn't."
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00:05:08,641 --> 00:05:12,854
It was the first murder case
involving a repressed memory.
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00:05:14,105 --> 00:05:19,277
I was fascinated to see how
that would work in the trial.
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00:05:19,319 --> 00:05:20,903
If it stood all alone,
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00:05:20,945 --> 00:05:23,156
would it be sufficient
for a conviction?
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00:05:26,159 --> 00:05:27,827
I sat through the trial.
80
00:05:29,537 --> 00:05:33,916
And Eileen is such
a dramatic witness.
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00:05:34,709 --> 00:05:37,003
She's very beautiful.
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00:05:37,045 --> 00:05:40,173
She's articulate,
she's emotional.
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00:05:42,008 --> 00:05:44,177
And he's sitting there
the whole time
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00:05:44,218 --> 00:05:46,179
like a stone figure.
85
00:05:48,222 --> 00:05:50,850
And every now and then he'll
move his head like this
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00:05:50,892 --> 00:05:54,562
and an odd little smile will
flit across his face.
87
00:05:56,397 --> 00:05:58,274
It's like, who is he smiling at,
88
00:05:58,316 --> 00:05:59,859
what does he think is funny?
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00:06:01,152 --> 00:06:04,197
So it starts to right
away turn into
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00:06:04,238 --> 00:06:07,492
- a good versus evil thing.
- He looks evil.
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00:06:15,124 --> 00:06:17,960
Do you recall the last
time you saw Susan Nason?
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00:06:18,002 --> 00:06:19,212
Yes.
93
00:06:20,838 --> 00:06:23,549
Do you know now
of the date of that event,
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00:06:23,591 --> 00:06:25,385
- when you last saw her?
- Yes.
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00:06:25,426 --> 00:06:29,889
- What date is that?
- -September 22nd, 1969.
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00:06:33,559 --> 00:06:36,062
On the witness stand,
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00:06:36,104 --> 00:06:41,234
she was the most compelling
witness I have ever seen
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00:06:42,610 --> 00:06:45,071
in 31 years as a prosecutor.
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00:06:45,822 --> 00:06:51,077
What we were there to do was
to prove that George Franklin
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00:06:51,119 --> 00:06:54,705
had murdered an innocent child,
Susan Nason, whose parents,
101
00:06:54,747 --> 00:06:56,749
Margaret and Don Nason,
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00:06:56,791 --> 00:07:02,004
had suffered for 20 years not
knowing who did this and why.
103
00:07:03,589 --> 00:07:05,591
We had to explain to the jury
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00:07:05,633 --> 00:07:07,593
that she had witnessed
her father commit
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00:07:07,635 --> 00:07:09,929
a murder and that she
did repress it.
106
00:07:11,264 --> 00:07:15,393
And then suddenly, out
of the blue, 20 years later,
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her memory came back to her.
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00:07:17,019 --> 00:07:19,814
This wasn't going
to be a simple,
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00:07:19,856 --> 00:07:23,609
straightforward eyewitness
to a murder case.
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00:07:25,236 --> 00:07:28,364
In San Mateo County,
this was the first repressed
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00:07:28,406 --> 00:07:31,284
memory case that we
had ever dealt with.
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00:07:32,660 --> 00:07:34,787
And we checked around the state.
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00:07:34,829 --> 00:07:37,123
I believe we didn't find
anybody else
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00:07:37,165 --> 00:07:39,292
in the state who had
experienced this type of
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a thing. So it was new
in that sense.
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And I would say not just
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00:07:43,754 --> 00:07:46,632
for murder type
of a case-- in any case.
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00:07:50,261 --> 00:07:53,139
I think we were very worried
about how it would play out
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00:07:53,181 --> 00:07:56,934
in court. What will
12 citizens on
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the street, who have
no experience or knowledge
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00:07:59,353 --> 00:08:02,482
in crime, justice,
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memory, repressed memory--
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00:08:06,235 --> 00:08:08,779
how are they going
to react to it?
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00:08:09,405 --> 00:08:13,326
Will they sit there and say,
"This sounds suspicious, phony?
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00:08:13,367 --> 00:08:16,120
How could it be?" Or will they
sit there and say, "Yeah,
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00:08:16,162 --> 00:08:18,206
I can understand how
that happened"?
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00:08:18,247 --> 00:08:21,209
So we did recognize perhaps
we were hooking the horse
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00:08:21,250 --> 00:08:23,961
up to the plow and making
new ground here.
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00:08:27,298 --> 00:08:29,467
Eileen,
what city did you live in
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when you were in fourth grade?
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00:08:30,885 --> 00:08:32,803
In Foster City.
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00:08:35,723 --> 00:08:38,684
Can you describe what
that area was like at that time?
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00:08:40,311 --> 00:08:42,939
It was just beginning
to be built up.
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00:08:42,980 --> 00:08:46,359
There were open fields
everywhere.
135
00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,696
And just one or two small
neighborhoods.
136
00:08:51,531 --> 00:08:54,867
Young couples with children.
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00:08:58,162 --> 00:09:01,374
My family moved
to Foster City in 1964.
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00:09:01,874 --> 00:09:04,961
We were one of the first 100
or so families.
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00:09:06,420 --> 00:09:08,548
Most of the families
that moved down here
140
00:09:08,589 --> 00:09:11,801
were blue collar families that
had two, three, four kids
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00:09:11,842 --> 00:09:13,594
in their household.
142
00:09:13,636 --> 00:09:18,224
So it was a unique experience
growing up with the city.
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00:09:22,937 --> 00:09:24,647
Foster City is located on
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00:09:24,689 --> 00:09:29,068
the peninsula, smack between
San Francisco and San Jose.
145
00:09:29,777 --> 00:09:32,280
It was a very safe area.
146
00:09:32,321 --> 00:09:34,907
Everybody was looking
out for everyone.
147
00:09:36,909 --> 00:09:38,911
We moved into
our house the same day
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00:09:38,953 --> 00:09:40,621
the Franklins moved
into their house.
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00:09:40,663 --> 00:09:43,082
We literally were all moving
in at the same time.
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00:09:45,209 --> 00:09:48,004
The Franklin house was
basically directly across
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the street from my house.
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00:09:50,339 --> 00:09:55,261
Leah Franklin, the mom, was
about 22 or 23 years old,
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and she already had
five children.
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haunting vocalization
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00:10:06,063 --> 00:10:09,775
The kids were very energetic,
running around,
156
00:10:09,817 --> 00:10:13,529
and they were loud and playing
157
00:10:13,571 --> 00:10:15,281
and fighting with each other.
158
00:10:16,741 --> 00:10:20,328
Eileen was probably
the quietest of the bunch.
159
00:10:20,870 --> 00:10:23,289
She was definitely
George's favorite.
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00:10:23,331 --> 00:10:26,125
- He had a nickname for her.
- It was Pooh.
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00:10:27,835 --> 00:10:30,254
When I was growing up,
I was...
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...not a very attractive child.
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00:10:32,632 --> 00:10:36,636
I had bright freckles all over
my face and long red hair
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00:10:36,677 --> 00:10:39,972
and buckteeth, and my dad used
to tell me how beautiful
165
00:10:40,014 --> 00:10:41,974
I was when everyone else
in the neighborhood
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00:10:42,016 --> 00:10:44,226
told me how ugly I was.
167
00:10:46,562 --> 00:10:49,357
- And he was irresistible.
- When we went out in public,
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00:10:49,398 --> 00:10:52,026
the waitresses would
flirt with him
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00:10:52,068 --> 00:10:54,236
and women would look at him.
170
00:10:54,278 --> 00:10:57,531
I thought, "My daddy is so
handsome and so smart
171
00:10:57,573 --> 00:10:59,992
and so attractive."
I just thought he was it.
172
00:11:02,036 --> 00:11:05,081
My dad and I loved each
other very, very much.
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00:11:07,166 --> 00:11:09,460
George Franklin was
probably the friendliest
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00:11:09,502 --> 00:11:14,507
neighbor on the street. They
were our next door neighbors
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00:11:14,548 --> 00:11:18,761
- on my kitchen side.
- Our kitchens were back to back.
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00:11:20,388 --> 00:11:22,848
George Franklin was
always beaming.
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00:11:22,890 --> 00:11:25,518
In fact, I named him
a little joke name,
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00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:27,353
but I won't go there.
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00:11:27,395 --> 00:11:30,022
I named him Old Flirty Flirt.
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00:11:30,064 --> 00:11:31,816
That's what I named him.
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00:11:32,942 --> 00:11:35,736
I never heard anything
out of order
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00:11:35,778 --> 00:11:37,905
that was going on in that house.
183
00:11:39,407 --> 00:11:41,075
Never.
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00:11:43,744 --> 00:11:46,914
My dad was a firefighter
with George Franklin.
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00:11:47,540 --> 00:11:50,584
My dad thought he was a good
firefighter. No question.
186
00:11:50,626 --> 00:11:53,421
When the bell rang,
he was there to answer it.
187
00:11:54,797 --> 00:11:58,259
The Franklin daughters
took dance from my mom.
188
00:11:58,300 --> 00:12:01,220
She had a studio in the house.
189
00:12:02,263 --> 00:12:05,099
Eileen was here all the time.
190
00:12:06,183 --> 00:12:09,729
I don't remember anything
that was suspicious
191
00:12:09,770 --> 00:12:13,399
or odd that would lead you to
believe that there is any
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00:12:13,441 --> 00:12:16,986
particular problems
at that house.
193
00:12:17,194 --> 00:12:19,238
George Franklin
to the outside world
194
00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:24,410
was a married father
of five. Firefighter.
195
00:12:24,452 --> 00:12:27,413
I think that was
the way he was perceived
196
00:12:27,455 --> 00:12:28,914
in the neighborhood.
197
00:12:29,540 --> 00:12:32,293
Mr. Joe Average Citizen.
198
00:12:35,629 --> 00:12:38,758
Eileen, what school
did you attend?
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00:12:38,799 --> 00:12:40,593
Foster City School.
200
00:12:40,634 --> 00:12:43,471
And what year was it
that you started fourth grade?
201
00:12:43,512 --> 00:12:45,473
1969.
202
00:12:46,015 --> 00:12:48,768
When you were that age
and in that grade,
203
00:12:48,809 --> 00:12:50,394
who was your closest friend?
204
00:12:52,271 --> 00:12:53,606
Susan.
205
00:12:53,647 --> 00:12:57,526
- Susan who?
- -Susan-- Susan Nason.
206
00:12:58,652 --> 00:13:00,488
Would you like
a drink of water?
207
00:13:00,529 --> 00:13:02,323
No, I'm fine.
208
00:13:02,364 --> 00:13:05,117
Let me know if you
would like a drink of water.
209
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,287
Were you and Susan
in the same class
210
00:13:08,329 --> 00:13:09,872
at Foster City Elementary?
211
00:13:09,914 --> 00:13:12,249
- I don't remember.
- Were you in the same grade?
212
00:13:12,291 --> 00:13:14,418
- Yes.
- The same age?
213
00:13:14,460 --> 00:13:16,128
Yes.
214
00:13:16,170 --> 00:13:18,255
What was the nature
of your friendship?
215
00:13:18,297 --> 00:13:20,216
We were best friends.
216
00:13:36,023 --> 00:13:37,775
Good morning,
Mrs. Nason.
217
00:13:37,817 --> 00:13:39,151
Good morning.
218
00:13:39,193 --> 00:13:40,778
Could you tell the judge
219
00:13:40,820 --> 00:13:43,697
where you were
living on September 22nd, 1969?
220
00:13:43,739 --> 00:13:45,991
In Foster City.
221
00:13:47,660 --> 00:13:49,411
At 1155 Balclutha Drive.
222
00:13:52,665 --> 00:13:54,959
Did Susan come home
from school that Monday,
223
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,546
- September 22nd?
- Yes, she did.
224
00:13:58,587 --> 00:14:02,132
And what happened
after she came home?
225
00:14:03,300 --> 00:14:06,345
Well, she came home with...
226
00:14:06,387 --> 00:14:09,306
...schoolbooks and a bag
227
00:14:09,348 --> 00:14:12,560
with a friend's shoes in them.
228
00:14:12,601 --> 00:14:14,645
Do you know
what friend that was?
229
00:14:14,687 --> 00:14:16,772
That was Celia Oakley.
230
00:14:16,814 --> 00:14:19,149
I saw the shoes in the bag
231
00:14:19,191 --> 00:14:22,695
and she said she wanted to
return them to Celia right away.
232
00:14:24,488 --> 00:14:28,367
- Did you okay that?
- -Yes, I-- I let her go.
233
00:15:03,402 --> 00:15:06,238
I left some tennis
shoes at school.
234
00:15:07,656 --> 00:15:11,827
And Susie was kind enough to
bring them over to my house
235
00:15:11,869 --> 00:15:13,746
after school for me.
236
00:15:13,787 --> 00:15:17,374
I remember opening the door
and seeing her there,
237
00:15:17,416 --> 00:15:21,587
and she handed me the bag
of shoes and I thanked her.
238
00:15:21,629 --> 00:15:25,090
I closed the door and she left.
239
00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:29,094
The police were able to
deduce that I was
240
00:15:29,136 --> 00:15:31,263
the last person to see Susie.
241
00:15:34,141 --> 00:15:37,019
After about an hour,
242
00:15:37,061 --> 00:15:40,272
I started looking for her.
243
00:15:40,314 --> 00:15:43,609
I rode all the streets
in the neighborhood.
244
00:15:44,818 --> 00:15:47,363
No one had seen her.
245
00:15:51,450 --> 00:15:55,412
I want to appeal to anyone
who has any information
246
00:15:55,454 --> 00:15:58,415
that can bring my daughter
back to me.
247
00:15:58,457 --> 00:16:01,669
Anything that you see,
or find, or hear,
248
00:16:01,710 --> 00:16:05,422
- please tell the police.
- Notify someone.
249
00:16:07,007 --> 00:16:08,968
I just want my daughter back.
250
00:16:09,009 --> 00:16:13,222
- More than anything in the world.
- And I keep praying.
251
00:16:13,263 --> 00:16:16,141
Please bring her back.
252
00:16:17,559 --> 00:16:19,186
Please.
253
00:16:33,534 --> 00:16:35,494
Foster City police come.
254
00:16:35,536 --> 00:16:39,331
They organize
a neighborhood search.
255
00:16:40,874 --> 00:16:44,920
They have over 100 people
and they start canvassing
256
00:16:44,962 --> 00:16:46,880
the neighborhood.
257
00:16:47,464 --> 00:16:51,510
The police came
and questioned me about every
258
00:16:51,552 --> 00:16:55,681
little detail. Where I was,
who I was with,
259
00:16:55,723 --> 00:16:58,892
if I had seen anything unusual.
260
00:16:59,935 --> 00:17:03,522
There was a knock
on the door and it was
261
00:17:03,564 --> 00:17:05,399
the Foster City police.
262
00:17:05,441 --> 00:17:07,526
They wanted to know if I'd
seen her after school.
263
00:17:07,568 --> 00:17:09,528
When was the last time?
264
00:17:11,196 --> 00:17:15,117
I'm not sure I really knew
the extent of what was going on
265
00:17:15,159 --> 00:17:18,746
as a nine-year-old,
but it was scary.
266
00:17:19,288 --> 00:17:21,749
It'll be a week
tomorrow since the girl vanished
267
00:17:21,790 --> 00:17:25,919
from her Foster City home
on the San Francisco peninsula.
268
00:17:25,961 --> 00:17:28,338
Kidnapping is suspected.
269
00:17:29,798 --> 00:17:32,634
Local authorities have
conducted both air
270
00:17:32,676 --> 00:17:35,220
and water searches
in the past several days.
271
00:17:37,598 --> 00:17:39,892
Foster City's built
on the water.
272
00:17:41,101 --> 00:17:43,228
They had boats out there.
273
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,940
There were divers searching
the lagoons.
274
00:17:48,108 --> 00:17:52,154
No one suspected
anybody in Foster City.
275
00:17:52,613 --> 00:17:57,701
It had to be some sort
of boogeyman theory.
276
00:17:57,743 --> 00:18:01,038
That it had to be somebody
that came in from outside
277
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,666
of our community to do something
this vicious.
278
00:18:04,708 --> 00:18:07,169
George Franklin
participated as one
279
00:18:07,211 --> 00:18:09,338
of the neighbors involved
in the search
280
00:18:09,379 --> 00:18:11,590
the night that Susan
went missing.
281
00:18:13,008 --> 00:18:17,387
They don't have any sense
that he might be somehow
282
00:18:17,429 --> 00:18:19,598
responsible for what's happened.
283
00:18:20,474 --> 00:18:22,935
The cops don't talk to Eileen,
284
00:18:22,976 --> 00:18:26,563
although Eileen
is Susan's best friend.
285
00:18:27,064 --> 00:18:31,568
No one ever thought that she
was a witness to the crime.
286
00:18:32,444 --> 00:18:35,739
Her teacher,
Mrs. Larkin,
287
00:18:35,781 --> 00:18:39,493
said, "Every day the children
would come to school
288
00:18:39,535 --> 00:18:42,287
and sit in their desks,
and every day
289
00:18:42,329 --> 00:18:45,916
I would check off every
name on the list,
290
00:18:45,958 --> 00:18:49,545
and next to Susan's name,
I would put an A for absent.
291
00:18:50,003 --> 00:18:54,716
And that went on for ten weeks
until her body was found.
292
00:18:54,758 --> 00:18:57,803
And then I had to put
a line through her name."
293
00:19:07,146 --> 00:19:11,984
It was approximately
a mile and a half west
294
00:19:12,025 --> 00:19:15,195
of the Crystal Springs Lakes
and on the south side
295
00:19:15,237 --> 00:19:17,281
of Highway 92.
296
00:19:23,620 --> 00:19:25,956
I just walked down
over the bank.
297
00:19:25,998 --> 00:19:29,751
There was kind of a trail there,
and I just walked out.
298
00:19:29,793 --> 00:19:32,171
What was it that
first caught your attention
299
00:19:32,212 --> 00:19:33,881
when you went down there?
300
00:19:33,922 --> 00:19:36,550
Well, this old bedspring
that was there.
301
00:19:36,592 --> 00:19:39,344
And just looking around
like I do,
302
00:19:39,386 --> 00:19:42,848
I just happened to look down
through the springs and I
303
00:19:43,265 --> 00:19:47,102
saw this material of clothing
and I guess I just looked closer
304
00:19:47,144 --> 00:19:50,022
and I could see that it
was a small body.
305
00:19:50,689 --> 00:19:54,026
Could you tell what
condition the body was in?
306
00:19:54,067 --> 00:19:57,905
- It was a decomposed body.
- Of a child.
307
00:20:10,417 --> 00:20:12,169
Here's where a young
Susan Nason's
308
00:20:12,211 --> 00:20:14,713
badly decomposed body,
her skull smashed,
309
00:20:14,755 --> 00:20:16,381
was found Tuesday morning
310
00:20:16,423 --> 00:20:18,383
some 70 days after she
vanished without
311
00:20:18,425 --> 00:20:22,346
a trace from her Foster City
home just 11 miles away.
312
00:20:22,387 --> 00:20:26,016
The area is a jumble of
overgrown bushes off Highway 92
313
00:20:26,058 --> 00:20:30,604
in the middle of the Crystal
Springs reservoir watershed.
314
00:20:34,233 --> 00:20:37,277
We have a huge
reservoir in this county,
315
00:20:37,319 --> 00:20:39,112
the Crystal Springs Reservoir,
316
00:20:39,154 --> 00:20:41,865
that is a watershed that
provides drinking water
317
00:20:41,907 --> 00:20:46,245
to San Francisco and many
other places.
318
00:20:47,287 --> 00:20:50,749
And there's a highway running
from Foster City
319
00:20:50,791 --> 00:20:54,419
all the way out to the city
of Half Moon Bay.
320
00:20:56,713 --> 00:20:59,591
The reservoir is kind
of a sacred place.
321
00:20:59,633 --> 00:21:03,262
It's pristine, it's beautiful,
it's sacrosanct.
322
00:21:03,303 --> 00:21:05,722
And lo and behold,
323
00:21:05,764 --> 00:21:08,642
there were the remains
of a child.
324
00:21:12,437 --> 00:21:16,400
A bottom or a
watershed keeper described how
325
00:21:16,441 --> 00:21:17,734
he found the body.
326
00:21:17,776 --> 00:21:19,611
Oh, I just-- hiking around like
327
00:21:19,653 --> 00:21:21,280
I generally do each day,
328
00:21:21,321 --> 00:21:26,076
and I happen to notice
an old bedsprings there.
329
00:21:26,118 --> 00:21:29,621
And I looked down through
the springs and I saw the skull.
330
00:21:35,502 --> 00:21:38,297
What remains now is
to piece together something
331
00:21:38,338 --> 00:21:39,840
from all this that will lead to
332
00:21:39,881 --> 00:21:42,301
the identity of that mad
killer who killed young
333
00:21:42,342 --> 00:21:46,805
Susan Nason. The immediate
area will be searched totally.
334
00:21:52,185 --> 00:21:56,315
What they find there
is the body itself
335
00:21:56,356 --> 00:21:58,108
pretty much mummified.
336
00:22:02,362 --> 00:22:04,823
They find a rock
337
00:22:04,865 --> 00:22:08,118
which has hair and blood on it.
338
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,164
They also find a silver ring
that's been crushed
339
00:22:12,205 --> 00:22:15,709
and the stones of which
are missing.
340
00:22:21,214 --> 00:22:26,178
The Foster City police chief
takes the clothes
341
00:22:26,219 --> 00:22:28,680
to the Nason household,
342
00:22:29,097 --> 00:22:33,685
and Margaret recognizes
the A-line dress
343
00:22:33,727 --> 00:22:36,855
as something that she's sewn
for Susan.
344
00:22:38,231 --> 00:22:41,026
Of course, we had...
345
00:22:41,651 --> 00:22:45,238
...never given up hope that
she would be found.
346
00:22:48,283 --> 00:22:50,410
What about you,
Mrs. Nason?
347
00:22:50,702 --> 00:22:53,705
Well, there was always
a slim chance.
348
00:22:53,747 --> 00:22:55,707
I think deep down underneath
349
00:22:55,749 --> 00:22:59,920
we knew that she wasn't alive.
350
00:23:02,964 --> 00:23:06,301
- It was shocking.
- It was, "This can't be."
351
00:23:06,343 --> 00:23:09,346
This is one of those classic
stories of,
352
00:23:09,388 --> 00:23:11,223
"This doesn't happen here."
353
00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:17,312
Although we're surrounded by
big cities that have typical
354
00:23:17,354 --> 00:23:19,815
big city crime, we don't.
355
00:23:20,190 --> 00:23:23,068
So when we get notorious crimes,
356
00:23:23,110 --> 00:23:26,905
it's enormously significant to
the members of this community.
357
00:23:29,366 --> 00:23:32,994
The panic grew more and more
because the panic was,
358
00:23:33,036 --> 00:23:35,205
the killer is still out there.
359
00:23:35,247 --> 00:23:39,501
Susan Nason's killer could
be my nextdoor neighbor.
360
00:23:40,127 --> 00:23:42,212
It could be random.
361
00:23:42,254 --> 00:23:44,589
And people were fearful.
362
00:23:46,299 --> 00:23:50,053
All the kids were
becoming paranoid that there was
363
00:23:50,095 --> 00:23:52,556
someone after them
in the neighborhood.
364
00:23:54,516 --> 00:23:57,561
And we would always be looking
over our shoulder to see
365
00:23:57,602 --> 00:23:59,938
if there was a car following us.
366
00:24:02,232 --> 00:24:05,402
The investigation went
out with a whimper,
367
00:24:05,444 --> 00:24:10,157
more than a bang. Weeks became
months, became years.
368
00:24:11,658 --> 00:24:14,953
It just kind of went
away with time.
369
00:24:20,333 --> 00:24:22,294
Fast forward 20 years.
370
00:24:23,628 --> 00:24:26,965
Eileen Franklin-Lipsker
371
00:24:27,007 --> 00:24:31,219
is a 28-year-old housewife
living in Canoga Park,
372
00:24:31,261 --> 00:24:35,056
a suburb of L.A., with two
children and her husband.
373
00:24:37,434 --> 00:24:41,313
And that's when the pieces
start to come together
374
00:24:41,354 --> 00:24:46,735
for her and she realizes that
she witnessed the crime.
375
00:24:48,820 --> 00:24:53,825
At the trial, you start
to get the story.
376
00:24:53,867 --> 00:24:56,453
And this is the first time
377
00:24:56,745 --> 00:25:00,832
that Eileen has really told
what happened
378
00:25:00,874 --> 00:25:03,168
when she recovered the memory.
379
00:25:06,254 --> 00:25:09,674
Well, I was sitting on
the sofa in my family room.
380
00:25:09,716 --> 00:25:11,927
And my daughter was playing on
381
00:25:11,968 --> 00:25:14,513
the floor with some
of her little playmates.
382
00:25:14,804 --> 00:25:18,391
And my daughter said something
to me which caused me
383
00:25:18,433 --> 00:25:23,647
to look down at her,
and I matched her gaze.
384
00:25:23,688 --> 00:25:26,066
And at that moment,
385
00:25:28,026 --> 00:25:31,696
she very closely
resembled Susan.
386
00:25:35,909 --> 00:25:39,663
And I remembered...
387
00:25:39,704 --> 00:25:43,166
...seeing Susan sitting there
388
00:25:43,208 --> 00:25:45,919
and seeing my father with
the rock above his head.
389
00:25:51,216 --> 00:25:53,218
Can you show us what
position your father's hands
390
00:25:53,260 --> 00:25:55,387
were in when you saw him
holding the rock?
391
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,474
He had both of his hands above
his head like this,
392
00:25:59,516 --> 00:26:01,059
turned this way.
393
00:26:03,770 --> 00:26:05,564
Over a period of time,
394
00:26:05,605 --> 00:26:10,235
the details of the memory came
back in bits and pieces.
395
00:26:11,403 --> 00:26:14,573
She discusses it with
her husband, Barry.
396
00:26:15,282 --> 00:26:18,618
District attorney's
office, Edder speaking.
397
00:26:28,044 --> 00:26:32,090
We do get people who call up
and they're doing it for
398
00:26:32,132 --> 00:26:33,758
a million phony reasons,
399
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,012
whether it be cheap publicity
or whatever it may be.
400
00:26:37,053 --> 00:26:39,180
That's not an uncommon
experience.
401
00:26:39,222 --> 00:26:41,725
So when I initially heard it,
I said, "Interesting,"
402
00:26:41,766 --> 00:26:45,228
and I urged investigators,
"Play it out, get it to
403
00:26:45,270 --> 00:26:46,938
the point where Eileen's
going to talk fully
404
00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:48,607
and see what you have.
405
00:26:48,648 --> 00:26:52,027
They asked if she would be
willing to be interviewed
406
00:26:52,068 --> 00:26:55,238
in depth about her recollections
of what happened
407
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,949
on September 22nd,
20 years earlier,
408
00:26:57,991 --> 00:27:01,578
- and the arrangements were made.
- Two detectives.
409
00:27:01,620 --> 00:27:04,623
Bob Morse and Brian Cassandro
flew down to L.A.
410
00:27:04,664 --> 00:27:07,959
and went out to Canoga Park to
interview her in her home.
411
00:27:13,173 --> 00:27:17,594
Location is 20458
Blithe in Canoga Park.
412
00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:19,971
Detective Sergeant
Bob Morse.
413
00:27:20,013 --> 00:27:23,141
Detective Brian Cassandro. Would
you state your full name, ma'am?
414
00:27:23,183 --> 00:27:24,934
Eileen Elizabeth
Franklin-Lipsker.
415
00:27:24,976 --> 00:27:27,187
Is it okay if I call you
Eileen?
416
00:27:27,228 --> 00:27:29,606
Yes.
417
00:27:29,648 --> 00:27:31,399
Eileen, I was notified by
418
00:27:31,441 --> 00:27:34,027
the District Attorney's office
that they had received
419
00:27:34,069 --> 00:27:36,279
a telephone call from your
husband with regard
420
00:27:36,321 --> 00:27:40,325
to a murder that had occurred
in 1969, correct?
421
00:27:40,367 --> 00:27:41,826
Yes.
422
00:27:41,868 --> 00:27:44,287
First thing any good
detective will do,
423
00:27:44,329 --> 00:27:47,248
and they did, was get
to know the person,
424
00:27:47,290 --> 00:27:51,127
and then just try to very
softly set the stage.
425
00:27:51,169 --> 00:27:53,838
"- We're here. We're open minded.
- We just want to hear from you."
426
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,216
And initially, you let
the person talk.
427
00:27:56,841 --> 00:28:00,011
Could you start and tell
me what happened?
428
00:28:00,595 --> 00:28:05,684
The way I remember it,
we were at the reservoirs.
429
00:28:06,267 --> 00:28:09,562
I saw my friend Susan
just sitting there,
430
00:28:09,604 --> 00:28:11,398
you know, sitting on a rock
431
00:28:11,439 --> 00:28:14,025
or sitting on something
that was slightly elevated,
432
00:28:14,067 --> 00:28:15,985
and when I looked up,
433
00:28:16,027 --> 00:28:20,990
my father had a rock
in his two hands,
434
00:28:21,616 --> 00:28:23,201
and was approaching her.
435
00:28:23,952 --> 00:28:26,121
And Susan screamed
436
00:28:26,162 --> 00:28:28,164
and brought her hand
to her head.
437
00:28:28,581 --> 00:28:33,044
And he crashed the rock down
against her head
438
00:28:33,086 --> 00:28:35,797
where her hands were.
439
00:28:35,839 --> 00:28:40,218
And he did a second blow.
440
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:43,930
And I must have started running
441
00:28:43,972 --> 00:28:46,349
because he grabbed me
and knocked me onto the ground
442
00:28:46,391 --> 00:28:49,310
and held my face down
into the ground,
443
00:28:49,352 --> 00:28:53,481
and he told me that if I ever
told anyone about this,
444
00:28:53,523 --> 00:28:55,316
he would kill me,
445
00:28:56,067 --> 00:28:59,654
and he kept holding me down
446
00:28:59,696 --> 00:29:01,531
for so long,
447
00:29:01,573 --> 00:29:04,993
had my face into the leaves
and stuff on the ground,
448
00:29:05,034 --> 00:29:07,746
and then finally he let me up
449
00:29:07,787 --> 00:29:11,249
and he held me
with me sitting on his lap,
450
00:29:11,291 --> 00:29:14,753
and he told me that this
was just between us
451
00:29:14,794 --> 00:29:18,006
and that it was over now
and I had to just forget it.
452
00:29:19,841 --> 00:29:21,593
It's been 20 years.
453
00:29:21,634 --> 00:29:25,138
Why weren't you here
back in 1969, 1970,
454
00:29:25,180 --> 00:29:26,765
or anywhere along the way?
455
00:29:26,806 --> 00:29:30,351
Why weren't you reporting
what your memory was?
456
00:29:30,393 --> 00:29:32,395
Her account was,
457
00:29:32,437 --> 00:29:35,482
"I had no memory
of this for 20 years.
458
00:29:35,523 --> 00:29:37,734
And the memory came back
to me in this way
459
00:29:37,776 --> 00:29:39,360
and it came back
to me in pieces."
460
00:29:39,402 --> 00:29:41,613
I don't think any of us
could even imagine
461
00:29:41,654 --> 00:29:44,407
what it would be like
to witness our parent
462
00:29:44,449 --> 00:29:46,534
murder our friend,
463
00:29:46,576 --> 00:29:49,746
and then be threatened
and coerced.
464
00:29:49,788 --> 00:29:52,832
"If you tell anyone,
I'll have to kill you."
465
00:29:55,919 --> 00:29:57,712
When I became involved
in the case,
466
00:29:57,754 --> 00:30:02,634
I didn't know anything about
repressed memory.
467
00:30:02,675 --> 00:30:05,136
I heard what she said
and I thought,
468
00:30:05,178 --> 00:30:07,430
"I believe that's possible,
469
00:30:07,472 --> 00:30:09,432
but I want to learn
more about it."
470
00:30:09,474 --> 00:30:13,728
I cracked open the Diagnostic
and Statistical Manual
471
00:30:13,770 --> 00:30:16,648
of the American Psychiatric
Association,
472
00:30:16,689 --> 00:30:19,317
basically the Bible
of psychiatrists.
473
00:30:19,818 --> 00:30:24,614
It was definitely recognized
as something that does exist.
474
00:30:31,704 --> 00:30:33,790
The issue of repression
and dissociation
475
00:30:33,832 --> 00:30:36,626
has always been in psychiatry.
476
00:30:36,668 --> 00:30:40,046
People started to write
about it in the 1870s,
477
00:30:40,088 --> 00:30:42,382
and it is always
a well-known phenomenon,
478
00:30:42,423 --> 00:30:45,885
that after horrendous
experiences,
479
00:30:45,927 --> 00:30:48,972
people couldn't remember things.
480
00:30:50,557 --> 00:30:53,685
The trauma itself messes up
your mind.
481
00:30:53,726 --> 00:30:58,898
The mind, brain, body
creates a capacity
482
00:30:58,940 --> 00:31:01,025
to just push things away
483
00:31:01,067 --> 00:31:02,819
and put it out of consciousness,
484
00:31:02,861 --> 00:31:04,946
which is a normal reaction.
485
00:31:06,406 --> 00:31:08,867
Your brain self-processing
information
486
00:31:08,908 --> 00:31:12,370
and has to defend itself
487
00:31:12,412 --> 00:31:14,372
against what's happening.
488
00:31:14,414 --> 00:31:17,458
And it shuts things down
so you get little pieces
489
00:31:17,500 --> 00:31:19,419
and fragments
of the whole thing.
490
00:31:32,390 --> 00:31:34,684
The whole term,
"repressed memory,"
491
00:31:34,726 --> 00:31:37,186
it's simply a way
of describing memories
492
00:31:37,228 --> 00:31:40,023
that are more difficult
than usual
493
00:31:40,064 --> 00:31:42,191
to bring into consciousness.
494
00:31:42,817 --> 00:31:44,277
They may be difficult
495
00:31:44,319 --> 00:31:46,696
because they're painful
to remember
496
00:31:46,738 --> 00:31:48,448
or they say
something awful about you.
497
00:31:48,489 --> 00:31:50,241
They often occur in situations
498
00:31:50,283 --> 00:31:52,785
that has been called
"betrayal trauma,"
499
00:31:52,827 --> 00:31:55,288
in which somebody who is
supposed to love and protect you
500
00:31:55,330 --> 00:31:57,790
does something horrible to you.
501
00:32:00,043 --> 00:32:02,378
Well, the greatest
conflict is the fact that
502
00:32:02,420 --> 00:32:04,631
I loved my father so much
and I adored him,
503
00:32:04,672 --> 00:32:07,050
and that I believe
that he loved me.
504
00:32:08,718 --> 00:32:10,053
It's almost a love story
505
00:32:10,094 --> 00:32:12,430
because I cared for him
so deeply.
506
00:32:12,472 --> 00:32:14,599
And that's why it was
so difficult to come forward.
507
00:32:14,641 --> 00:32:17,602
It was so painfully difficult.
508
00:32:18,019 --> 00:32:20,688
How do you maintain
that awareness?
509
00:32:20,730 --> 00:32:22,941
You know, that the person
you depend on for survival
510
00:32:22,982 --> 00:32:26,194
and you thought loved you is
doing horrible things to you?
511
00:32:26,235 --> 00:32:28,863
The two images just
don't go together.
512
00:32:28,905 --> 00:32:30,448
So one way of dealing with it
513
00:32:30,490 --> 00:32:32,617
is to just say
it's either one or the other
514
00:32:32,659 --> 00:32:35,036
and I'm not going to remember
both at the same time
515
00:32:35,078 --> 00:32:36,663
because it's too painful.
516
00:32:38,623 --> 00:32:40,833
And that was sort
of the impression that
517
00:32:40,875 --> 00:32:43,461
I believe we were getting
from Eileen,
518
00:32:43,503 --> 00:32:48,424
is that here is somebody
suppressing a traumatic memory
519
00:32:48,466 --> 00:32:51,177
in order to be able to live
their life
520
00:32:51,219 --> 00:32:53,680
without that dominating
their life.
521
00:32:56,349 --> 00:32:58,518
We knew
since we're dealing with
522
00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:00,895
this unique circumstance
of repressed memory,
523
00:33:00,937 --> 00:33:03,648
we needed to be able to call
an expert about,
524
00:33:03,690 --> 00:33:07,443
"Hey, what we have here,
does that fit? Not fit?"
525
00:33:07,485 --> 00:33:10,822
And Lenore Terr was our expert.
526
00:33:10,863 --> 00:33:13,825
When one is traumatized,
no matter how...
527
00:33:13,866 --> 00:33:16,494
Dr. Lenore Terr,
an expert in childhood trauma,
528
00:33:16,536 --> 00:33:18,913
says extremely
painful experiences
529
00:33:18,955 --> 00:33:22,750
can remain buried for years
then unexpectedly resurface.
530
00:33:22,792 --> 00:33:26,421
The memory would come back
because something evoked it,
531
00:33:26,462 --> 00:33:28,172
something just got it started.
532
00:33:28,214 --> 00:33:30,341
And it could be
the time of year.
533
00:33:32,385 --> 00:33:34,846
It could be a sound.
534
00:33:37,348 --> 00:33:39,392
It could be a smell.
535
00:33:40,476 --> 00:33:42,812
It could be because one's
own child is the same age
536
00:33:42,854 --> 00:33:45,356
that one was
at the time of the event
537
00:33:45,398 --> 00:33:47,358
in the first place.
538
00:33:50,737 --> 00:33:54,741
A series of memories began and
pieces just came and came.
539
00:33:54,782 --> 00:33:57,535
- I tried to stop them.
- I tried to make it go away.
540
00:33:57,577 --> 00:33:59,495
I believed that
I was going insane,
541
00:33:59,537 --> 00:34:02,498
that this couldn't possibly
be normal,
542
00:34:02,540 --> 00:34:05,293
but they came and came and came.
543
00:34:05,334 --> 00:34:07,211
And after a while,
there was just no denying
544
00:34:07,253 --> 00:34:09,297
that I had witnessed the murder
545
00:34:09,338 --> 00:34:11,591
and that my father had done it.
546
00:34:13,134 --> 00:34:16,637
After consulting
psychiatrists and other experts,
547
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:19,807
Elaine Tipton became convinced
that Eileen had indeed
548
00:34:19,849 --> 00:34:22,894
repressed her memory
as a survival mechanism.
549
00:34:22,935 --> 00:34:25,980
One of the things that
I learned is that
550
00:34:26,022 --> 00:34:28,357
the retrieval of the memory
has a lot to do with
551
00:34:28,399 --> 00:34:31,152
the person's readiness
to remember.
552
00:34:32,445 --> 00:34:33,738
They no longer view themselves
553
00:34:33,780 --> 00:34:36,324
as vulnerable
to the perpetrator,
554
00:34:36,365 --> 00:34:38,326
in most cases, the father.
555
00:34:38,367 --> 00:34:40,078
That was certainly true
for Eileen.
556
00:34:44,207 --> 00:34:48,086
One day, Elaine Tipton
came to my desk and said,
557
00:34:48,127 --> 00:34:49,837
"Guess what?
558
00:34:49,879 --> 00:34:52,256
You're going to assist
in the investigation."
559
00:34:53,966 --> 00:34:55,885
Memory isn't evidence.
560
00:34:55,927 --> 00:34:59,639
It's the beginning of a case,
maybe, but it's not evidence.
561
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,059
You need to back up
that memory with evidence.
562
00:35:03,101 --> 00:35:06,395
So the next step was to further
corroborate her statement.
563
00:35:06,437 --> 00:35:08,189
It was put on the front burner
564
00:35:08,231 --> 00:35:10,775
and things started rolling.
565
00:35:10,817 --> 00:35:13,069
The big thing is,
is to take a look at
566
00:35:13,111 --> 00:35:15,238
what's been described to you,
567
00:35:15,279 --> 00:35:18,282
the statement that you've
obtained from Eileen Franklin.
568
00:35:18,324 --> 00:35:20,201
You look at every minute detail
569
00:35:20,243 --> 00:35:21,786
to see if there
are consistencies
570
00:35:21,828 --> 00:35:23,121
and inconsistencies.
571
00:35:23,162 --> 00:35:24,664
And then you go back and say,
572
00:35:24,705 --> 00:35:26,958
"Okay, let's look
at the original case."
573
00:35:29,585 --> 00:35:31,754
I'd like to direct
your attention
574
00:35:31,796 --> 00:35:36,092
to the afternoon
of December 2nd of 1969.
575
00:35:36,134 --> 00:35:39,303
Did you on that day perform
an autopsy on the remains
576
00:35:39,345 --> 00:35:40,972
of a young child?
577
00:35:41,013 --> 00:35:42,765
Yes, I did.
578
00:35:42,807 --> 00:35:45,643
Where was the first
injury that you observed
579
00:35:45,685 --> 00:35:48,312
to the skeletal remains
of Susan Nason?
580
00:35:48,646 --> 00:35:51,899
Well, there was
a large defect in the skull
581
00:35:51,941 --> 00:35:53,568
on the right side.
582
00:35:53,609 --> 00:35:56,654
Can you indicate
on your own skull
583
00:35:56,696 --> 00:35:58,823
where that injury was located?
584
00:35:58,865 --> 00:36:02,827
Yes, Counsel, it was on the
right side towards the back.
585
00:36:13,588 --> 00:36:17,091
The information
that she was providing
586
00:36:17,133 --> 00:36:22,013
was matching up identically
with the facts of the crime.
587
00:36:23,264 --> 00:36:26,475
She said Susie was wearing
brown shoes and white socks,
588
00:36:26,517 --> 00:36:28,519
which we knew she was.
589
00:36:29,312 --> 00:36:31,355
She said the dress was A-line.
590
00:36:32,398 --> 00:36:35,193
She described
two blows to the head
591
00:36:35,234 --> 00:36:37,195
with an object such as
592
00:36:37,236 --> 00:36:39,697
the rocks that were recovered
from the scene.
593
00:36:40,114 --> 00:36:45,494
But the most significant thing
was that her friend's hand--
594
00:36:45,536 --> 00:36:49,457
Susan's right hand-- was
wounded,
595
00:36:49,498 --> 00:36:51,459
injured, bleeding,
596
00:36:51,500 --> 00:36:55,379
and she recalls noticing
a silver ring
597
00:36:55,421 --> 00:36:57,381
and that the ring was damaged.
598
00:36:57,423 --> 00:37:01,636
You mentioned on the phone
something about a crushed ring?
599
00:37:02,470 --> 00:37:04,013
She used to wear this,
600
00:37:04,055 --> 00:37:07,350
I think it was silver ring
with--
601
00:37:07,391 --> 00:37:09,268
it had a stone in it.
602
00:37:10,770 --> 00:37:13,064
And she had her hands
up to her head.
603
00:37:13,105 --> 00:37:16,859
The rock came down
and I saw the ring crushed.
604
00:37:18,277 --> 00:37:21,489
Doctor, did you observe
any foreign object
605
00:37:21,530 --> 00:37:23,366
on the right hand
of Susan Nason?
606
00:37:23,407 --> 00:37:25,034
- Yes, I did.
- What was that?
607
00:37:25,076 --> 00:37:28,704
There was a white metal ring
on the middle finger.
608
00:37:28,746 --> 00:37:31,415
What was
the condition of that ring?
609
00:37:31,457 --> 00:37:33,000
that you observed?
610
00:37:33,042 --> 00:37:35,962
The ring was distorted
and partly flattened,
611
00:37:36,003 --> 00:37:40,424
and there was absence
of the stone
612
00:37:40,466 --> 00:37:42,468
from its setting.
613
00:37:45,471 --> 00:37:47,431
The crushed ring.
614
00:37:47,473 --> 00:37:49,725
It was all about
that crushed ring.
615
00:37:49,767 --> 00:37:54,105
And at that point, Bob,
Bryan and our whole bureau
616
00:37:54,146 --> 00:37:58,109
was convinced she was being
straightforward and truthful
617
00:37:58,150 --> 00:38:02,363
because Eileen knew
information about the killing
618
00:38:02,405 --> 00:38:04,657
that no one should have known.
619
00:38:04,699 --> 00:38:06,409
It was a done deal.
620
00:38:06,742 --> 00:38:10,663
They do the research and
they find out that Franklin
621
00:38:10,705 --> 00:38:14,041
was not on duty that day as
a fireman in Foster City.
622
00:38:14,083 --> 00:38:16,711
He had no alibi.
623
00:38:16,752 --> 00:38:19,422
So that opens up
that possibility.
624
00:38:19,463 --> 00:38:21,632
I decided at a point
625
00:38:21,674 --> 00:38:24,719
that Eileen Franklin
was telling us the truth,
626
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:26,762
that Eileen Franklin's
description of what had happened
627
00:38:26,804 --> 00:38:28,973
is indeed what occurred.
628
00:38:29,015 --> 00:38:30,725
In other words,
we came to the conclusion
629
00:38:30,766 --> 00:38:32,560
in this office
that George Franklin
630
00:38:32,601 --> 00:38:35,646
had committed the murder
of Susan Nason.
631
00:38:37,857 --> 00:38:39,734
The investigators came
632
00:38:39,775 --> 00:38:42,403
to the house that
Mr. Franklin resided in.
633
00:38:42,445 --> 00:38:44,905
When he opened the door,
they said,
634
00:38:44,947 --> 00:38:46,782
"We are here to talk to you
635
00:38:46,824 --> 00:38:49,452
about the murder
of Susan Nason."
636
00:38:49,493 --> 00:38:51,579
His only response--
637
00:38:51,620 --> 00:38:53,998
and we felt this was
638
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,584
an incredibly powerful
response was--
639
00:38:56,625 --> 00:38:58,919
"Have you talked
to my daughter?"
640
00:39:02,131 --> 00:39:05,843
After that, he never spoke
to the authorities again.
641
00:39:08,012 --> 00:39:09,680
Mr. Franklin,
you're under arrest
642
00:39:09,722 --> 00:39:11,265
for the murder of Susan Nason.
643
00:39:11,307 --> 00:39:13,184
In so far
as I understand it--
644
00:39:13,225 --> 00:39:14,935
You have
the right to remain silent.
645
00:39:14,977 --> 00:39:16,645
Anything you say can
and will be used
646
00:39:16,687 --> 00:39:18,272
against you
in a Court of Law.
647
00:39:18,314 --> 00:39:20,358
You have the right to talk
to a lawyer,
648
00:39:20,399 --> 00:39:22,234
and have him present with you
while being questioned.
649
00:39:22,276 --> 00:39:23,861
Do you understand
each of these rights,
650
00:39:23,903 --> 00:39:25,404
I've explained to you?
651
00:39:25,446 --> 00:39:27,114
I'm in a state of shock.
652
00:39:27,156 --> 00:39:29,116
A 50-year-old
retired fireman
653
00:39:29,158 --> 00:39:31,118
was in a California courtroom
today for a preliminary
654
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,622
hearing in a case police thought
they would never solve:
655
00:39:34,663 --> 00:39:37,875
the murder of a child
20 years ago.
656
00:39:40,002 --> 00:39:42,004
I was at work when
I heard it.
657
00:39:42,046 --> 00:39:45,257
I didn't believe what
I had heard,
658
00:39:45,299 --> 00:39:48,135
so I called KGO
659
00:39:48,177 --> 00:39:50,846
and I asked, I said,
"I just heard something
660
00:39:50,888 --> 00:39:53,349
and I want to make sure
I heard the right thing."
661
00:39:53,391 --> 00:39:55,476
And then they told me,
662
00:39:55,518 --> 00:39:58,938
yes, that George Franklin
had been taken into custody.
663
00:40:00,398 --> 00:40:02,566
I-- I couldn't believe it.
664
00:40:02,608 --> 00:40:06,654
It was very-- a very painful
thing to think that, wow,
665
00:40:06,695 --> 00:40:10,408
we were living next door to him.
666
00:40:10,449 --> 00:40:14,578
He took the life of
an innocent little girl.
667
00:40:16,288 --> 00:40:17,998
I had no doubt
668
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,918
that she was telling the truth.
669
00:40:22,586 --> 00:40:26,090
It was a sad story,
but very true.
670
00:40:27,967 --> 00:40:30,094
What do you say
to people who wonder
671
00:40:30,136 --> 00:40:33,639
how a daughter can
turn in her own father?
672
00:40:34,932 --> 00:40:37,184
Well, it's not
all black and white.
673
00:40:39,186 --> 00:40:42,648
I didn't turn my father in
on a whim.
674
00:40:42,690 --> 00:40:45,609
I turned him in
for a very serious crime
675
00:40:46,777 --> 00:40:48,779
that he allowed me to witness.
676
00:40:49,989 --> 00:40:52,158
I had to do what I believe is
the right thing.
677
00:40:52,199 --> 00:40:55,619
I feel very strongly
that I owe this to Susan.
678
00:40:55,661 --> 00:40:59,957
There was nothing I could do
at the time to protect her.
679
00:40:59,999 --> 00:41:02,960
And I was
the only other person there.
680
00:41:03,002 --> 00:41:07,298
And I just feel that I owe
it to her to tell the truth.
681
00:41:09,842 --> 00:41:13,762
I was blown away when
my parents told me that
682
00:41:13,804 --> 00:41:17,433
it was George Franklin that
was arrested for the crime.
683
00:41:17,475 --> 00:41:21,312
It was still hard for me
to picture the guy
684
00:41:21,353 --> 00:41:26,066
that I knew
as this vicious person.
685
00:41:27,443 --> 00:41:32,239
So to find out that
it was someone that I knew
686
00:41:32,281 --> 00:41:37,161
since I was four years old
was pretty shocking.
687
00:41:44,877 --> 00:41:46,462
Franklin had been arrested.
688
00:41:46,504 --> 00:41:48,547
Obviously,
his residence was searched,
689
00:41:48,589 --> 00:41:49,840
standard operating procedure.
690
00:41:49,882 --> 00:41:52,510
In that search,
691
00:41:52,551 --> 00:41:55,846
instead of having a whole set
of books by Charles Dickens
692
00:41:55,888 --> 00:41:58,516
or somebody like that,
he has sex books.
693
00:42:02,478 --> 00:42:05,981
He's got books in there
on incest, pedophilia,
694
00:42:06,023 --> 00:42:07,858
deviant sexual behavior.
695
00:42:10,402 --> 00:42:14,198
Magazines that made it very
clear what his interest was.
696
00:42:16,867 --> 00:42:19,537
There are stories in there
697
00:42:19,578 --> 00:42:22,373
about men who sleep
with their daughters,
698
00:42:22,414 --> 00:42:24,542
"Oral Dad,"
699
00:42:24,875 --> 00:42:27,628
"Sex Before Eight
or It's Too Late,"
700
00:42:27,878 --> 00:42:32,383
and they
also found sex toys
701
00:42:32,424 --> 00:42:35,886
that they felt were designed
for children.
702
00:42:38,264 --> 00:42:40,516
We found his apartment was
703
00:42:40,558 --> 00:42:42,101
just in disarray.
704
00:42:42,142 --> 00:42:45,688
We found an awful lot
of pornographic books.
705
00:42:46,772 --> 00:42:48,107
Bestiality.
706
00:42:48,148 --> 00:42:50,442
- Bestiality?
- You mean with animals?
707
00:42:50,484 --> 00:42:52,278
Right. Mm-hmm.
708
00:42:52,319 --> 00:42:54,780
- You're kidding?
- You must have been appalled.
709
00:42:55,948 --> 00:42:57,783
Yeah, we were.
710
00:43:02,413 --> 00:43:06,417
Detective Bob Morse
and Detective Brian Cassandro
711
00:43:06,458 --> 00:43:09,253
were kind of like
the Batman and Robin
712
00:43:09,295 --> 00:43:11,714
of the county sheriff's
homicide unit.
713
00:43:11,755 --> 00:43:14,300
They were a pair.
714
00:43:15,301 --> 00:43:17,344
They were the best
of the best.
715
00:43:17,386 --> 00:43:20,055
To this day, they remain
the two best detectives
716
00:43:20,097 --> 00:43:22,433
that I've seen in
my four and a half decades
717
00:43:22,474 --> 00:43:24,101
in this business.
718
00:43:24,810 --> 00:43:27,104
They found an address book
719
00:43:27,146 --> 00:43:30,357
and it had the names
of a large number of women.
720
00:43:30,399 --> 00:43:32,443
They went out and interviewed
as many of them
721
00:43:32,484 --> 00:43:34,278
as they could contact
as possible.
722
00:43:34,820 --> 00:43:38,907
We interviewed
numerous female companions
723
00:43:38,949 --> 00:43:41,076
that he had over the years.
724
00:43:41,118 --> 00:43:43,370
And what did
they tell you?
725
00:43:43,412 --> 00:43:47,291
Well, the majority of them
told us that he was involved
726
00:43:47,333 --> 00:43:50,085
in that type of thing and wanted
them to get involved in it,
727
00:43:50,127 --> 00:43:52,004
with the-- with the animals,
728
00:43:52,046 --> 00:43:54,965
um, with their daughters.
729
00:43:55,007 --> 00:43:59,970
In one instance,
he solicited an older women
730
00:44:00,012 --> 00:44:03,641
to provide
her nine-year-old daughter
731
00:44:03,682 --> 00:44:07,311
for his sexual desires.
732
00:44:19,573 --> 00:44:23,827
haunting vocalization
733
00:44:23,869 --> 00:44:27,456
It was probably
early in 1979.
734
00:44:27,498 --> 00:44:31,251
I was at Santa Cruz
on the beach,
735
00:44:32,503 --> 00:44:37,174
and George approached me
and invited me for breakfast.
736
00:44:38,676 --> 00:44:43,764
- George was a character.
- Folksy, colorful,
737
00:44:43,806 --> 00:44:45,849
and he was very smart.
738
00:44:47,559 --> 00:44:49,186
I loved George.
739
00:44:49,228 --> 00:44:52,022
He was a person
who believed in you
740
00:44:52,064 --> 00:44:54,274
when you didn't believe
in yourself.
741
00:44:56,068 --> 00:45:01,240
However, when he began staying
at my apartment more often,
742
00:45:01,281 --> 00:45:06,036
that's when I began to notice
that he had been drinking
743
00:45:06,078 --> 00:45:10,290
and drinking heavier
and heavier.
744
00:45:10,332 --> 00:45:13,919
It was very, very difficult.
745
00:45:13,961 --> 00:45:17,297
It was destroying me
746
00:45:17,339 --> 00:45:19,216
because I knew he was sick.
747
00:45:20,426 --> 00:45:25,597
I tried to explain to him what
a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde
748
00:45:25,639 --> 00:45:29,268
his personality became
749
00:45:29,309 --> 00:45:33,021
between his lovable,
encouraging,
750
00:45:33,063 --> 00:45:36,775
cheerful, positive,
hardworking self, sober,
751
00:45:37,109 --> 00:45:42,322
and this miserable, defensive,
argumentative thug
752
00:45:42,364 --> 00:45:45,743
that he was when he was drunk.
753
00:45:45,784 --> 00:45:47,911
And he disregarded that.
754
00:45:50,789 --> 00:45:52,416
Toward the end of it, he said,
755
00:45:52,458 --> 00:45:54,626
"We ought to go to Disneyland."
756
00:45:55,210 --> 00:45:57,004
So I said, "Okay."
757
00:45:57,963 --> 00:46:00,257
We wandered around the park,
758
00:46:00,299 --> 00:46:04,386
saw a few things,
and he had gone elsewhere
759
00:46:04,428 --> 00:46:06,847
for a while
while I was shopping.
760
00:46:06,889 --> 00:46:10,934
And I realized when
he came back, he was drunk.
761
00:46:12,269 --> 00:46:14,480
And I headed out of the park.
762
00:46:15,773 --> 00:46:17,566
And he ran alongside of me
763
00:46:17,608 --> 00:46:20,444
and I just kept going
into the parking lot.
764
00:46:20,486 --> 00:46:22,988
I had my own set of keys
to the van.
765
00:46:26,116 --> 00:46:29,411
He came into the van behind me
766
00:46:31,455 --> 00:46:32,998
and he grabbed me
767
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:34,917
and he-- first, he shook my
shoulders
768
00:46:34,958 --> 00:46:36,460
and then he grabbed my throat,
769
00:46:36,502 --> 00:46:40,297
and he grabbed it hard
and he was squeezing.
770
00:46:40,923 --> 00:46:45,385
I didn't think I would die
because I believed
771
00:46:45,427 --> 00:46:48,430
I could get through
to him if I could talk.
772
00:46:48,472 --> 00:46:51,475
I couldn't talk with
the hands on my throat.
773
00:46:51,517 --> 00:46:55,854
I had to get my arm up there
and relieve the throat.
774
00:46:56,313 --> 00:46:59,107
I managed, I think,
with my elbow
775
00:46:59,149 --> 00:47:02,027
to get my arm
in between me and him.
776
00:47:02,069 --> 00:47:04,363
And I kept saying,
777
00:47:04,404 --> 00:47:06,073
"George, do you know
what you're doing?"
778
00:47:06,114 --> 00:47:09,284
"George, do you realize
what you're doing?
779
00:47:10,744 --> 00:47:12,788
And he backed off.
780
00:47:13,330 --> 00:47:17,459
I had marks on my throat
for days afterwards.
781
00:47:18,961 --> 00:47:20,337
And that was it.
782
00:47:20,379 --> 00:47:23,966
I never
wanted to see George again.
783
00:47:34,601 --> 00:47:36,645
Franklin had been
arraigned.
784
00:47:36,687 --> 00:47:38,438
He was in custody.
785
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,649
And Eileen wanted
to go visit him.
786
00:47:41,149 --> 00:47:44,486
Eileen did not want this to
have to go through a trial
787
00:47:44,528 --> 00:47:46,363
for the harm it would do
to the family
788
00:47:46,405 --> 00:47:48,198
to have to relive
all of these things.
789
00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:50,200
Her goal was to try
and convince him,
790
00:47:50,242 --> 00:47:52,870
"Just admit what you did,
take responsibility.
791
00:47:52,911 --> 00:47:55,539
Then we don't all have
to go through this."
792
00:47:57,541 --> 00:48:01,211
Eileen was escorted up
to the visiting area.
793
00:48:01,503 --> 00:48:05,340
She accused him, "You did this,
you know you did this!"
794
00:48:06,550 --> 00:48:08,969
You need to tell
the truth about this.
795
00:48:09,011 --> 00:48:10,929
You could really heal our
family.
796
00:48:10,971 --> 00:48:12,723
You need to do the right thing.
797
00:48:12,764 --> 00:48:14,683
You raised me
to do the right thing.
798
00:48:14,725 --> 00:48:17,895
You told me the truth
will set you free.
799
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:23,567
"What are you talking about?
800
00:48:23,609 --> 00:48:25,736
- I never did it.
- I had nothing to do with it.
801
00:48:25,777 --> 00:48:27,654
I would never harm
that little girl."
802
00:48:27,696 --> 00:48:28,989
Nothing like that.
803
00:48:29,031 --> 00:48:30,991
Instead his response was silence
804
00:48:31,033 --> 00:48:33,368
and to take a hand and point up
805
00:48:33,410 --> 00:48:36,038
at the sign over their heads.
806
00:48:36,079 --> 00:48:38,540
He points up to the sign
that says,
807
00:48:38,582 --> 00:48:40,626
"Conversations Might
Be Monitored,"
808
00:48:40,667 --> 00:48:43,921
and does not respond
to her specific request.
809
00:48:44,296 --> 00:48:47,299
If a person, when confronted
with an accusation,
810
00:48:47,341 --> 00:48:49,593
remains silent
or does not offer to explain,
811
00:48:49,635 --> 00:48:53,096
it is an admission
by the lack of a denial.
812
00:48:56,642 --> 00:48:58,769
When I went to see
my father in jail,
813
00:48:58,810 --> 00:49:00,729
my father never claimed
to me that he was innocent
814
00:49:00,771 --> 00:49:02,439
because he couldn't say it
to me.
815
00:49:02,481 --> 00:49:04,441
I know the truth
and he knows the truth.
816
00:49:04,483 --> 00:49:07,903
And so we had a very
spontaneous natural visit.
817
00:49:07,945 --> 00:49:10,572
And that will probably be
the last time I see him.
818
00:49:23,669 --> 00:49:26,964
Memory is an issue
in every trial.
819
00:49:27,005 --> 00:49:28,465
I can't think of a trial
820
00:49:28,507 --> 00:49:30,384
out of the thousands
of trials in this county
821
00:49:30,425 --> 00:49:31,969
where we don't have witnesses.
822
00:49:32,010 --> 00:49:34,638
And if you have witnesses,
you've got memories.
823
00:49:36,139 --> 00:49:38,392
There was one key witness
in this case.
824
00:49:38,433 --> 00:49:40,936
The key witness
was Eileen Franklin.
825
00:49:41,353 --> 00:49:43,939
Everybody knew that
without Eileen Franklin,
826
00:49:43,981 --> 00:49:45,691
there is no case.
827
00:49:49,152 --> 00:49:51,571
That jury, all twelve of them
828
00:49:51,613 --> 00:49:54,574
if even one of them
did not believe her,
829
00:49:54,616 --> 00:49:56,284
we lose our case.
830
00:49:56,326 --> 00:50:00,080
A review of the authorities
would certainly establish that--
831
00:50:00,122 --> 00:50:03,709
Tipton, of course, led
off as a prosecutor must.
832
00:50:04,126 --> 00:50:07,754
She believed
Eileen Franklin's story
833
00:50:07,796 --> 00:50:11,925
that she had seen her father
kill Susan Nason.
834
00:50:11,967 --> 00:50:16,847
She was coming across as what
I would call an avenging angel.
835
00:50:16,888 --> 00:50:20,100
She was going to make
the story clear,
836
00:50:20,142 --> 00:50:23,270
and she was going to make
George Franklin pay the price.
837
00:50:23,311 --> 00:50:25,772
Surely, and all of its progeny--
838
00:50:25,814 --> 00:50:30,485
When Eileen testified,
the expression of emotion
839
00:50:30,527 --> 00:50:34,531
was as though
she was seeing in her head
840
00:50:34,573 --> 00:50:37,284
exactly what she was describing.
841
00:50:38,410 --> 00:50:41,204
And what she was describing
was horrific,
842
00:50:41,246 --> 00:50:43,457
it was terrible,
it was frightening.
843
00:50:43,957 --> 00:50:47,919
You had to let her know that
we were doing the right thing,
844
00:50:47,961 --> 00:50:50,047
this was the right thing,
she had witnessed a murder,
845
00:50:50,088 --> 00:50:54,259
we had to bring
this killer to justice.
846
00:50:54,551 --> 00:50:58,513
But it was going
to rise and fall
847
00:50:58,555 --> 00:51:01,558
in large part on her testimony.
848
00:51:06,271 --> 00:51:08,231
Can you tell me
the circumstances
849
00:51:08,273 --> 00:51:10,734
under which you saw Susan
on that day?
850
00:51:15,530 --> 00:51:20,577
I was with my father
in his Volkswagen van
851
00:51:20,619 --> 00:51:25,582
and we went down Harvester
and turned on Balclutha,
852
00:51:25,624 --> 00:51:28,460
and I saw Susan and I...
853
00:51:29,795 --> 00:51:33,048
...well, I asked if Susan
could get in the car with us.
854
00:51:33,090 --> 00:51:37,427
And we stopped, pulled over,
and she got into the car.
855
00:51:40,180 --> 00:51:42,432
Do you know
where he drove to?
856
00:51:46,812 --> 00:51:48,605
I remember
looking out the window
857
00:51:48,647 --> 00:51:50,732
and seeing the reservoirs.
858
00:51:52,275 --> 00:51:56,947
And the next thing that
I remember is pulling off
859
00:51:56,988 --> 00:52:00,283
the paved road
onto an unpaved area.
860
00:52:03,286 --> 00:52:05,956
What was the next thing
that you saw him do?
861
00:52:13,130 --> 00:52:17,968
I went up into the front seat,
into the passenger seat,
862
00:52:19,136 --> 00:52:21,388
and when I turned around
and looked back into
863
00:52:21,429 --> 00:52:23,473
the back...
864
00:52:24,683 --> 00:52:29,646
...Susie was on the end
of a platform
865
00:52:29,688 --> 00:52:31,648
where the mattress was.
866
00:52:34,442 --> 00:52:37,195
Can you describe the
back of the van for us, Eileen?
867
00:52:37,487 --> 00:52:40,824
There was
a plywood platform
868
00:52:40,866 --> 00:52:44,327
that had a mattress
of some sort on it.
869
00:52:45,537 --> 00:52:48,165
And where
was your father positioned
870
00:52:48,206 --> 00:52:50,500
in relation to Susie?
871
00:52:58,216 --> 00:52:59,885
He was on top of her
872
00:52:59,926 --> 00:53:04,055
with his pelvis where--
up against her pelvis
873
00:53:04,097 --> 00:53:05,390
and her legs were apart.
874
00:53:05,432 --> 00:53:07,684
- And her legs were apart?
- Yes.
875
00:53:13,732 --> 00:53:16,318
What is the next thing
that happened?
876
00:53:19,362 --> 00:53:22,866
She was crying a little bit
when we got out of the van.
877
00:53:24,075 --> 00:53:27,704
I was looking at something
in my hand
878
00:53:27,746 --> 00:53:29,915
that I picked up off
of the ground.
879
00:53:31,875 --> 00:53:34,711
And I saw, um...
880
00:53:37,255 --> 00:53:39,674
...the frame or
the silhouette
881
00:53:39,716 --> 00:53:43,970
of my father with the sun
coming up behind it,
882
00:53:44,012 --> 00:53:47,807
and he had his hands up
above his head
883
00:53:48,433 --> 00:53:50,727
with a rock in it.
884
00:53:51,394 --> 00:53:52,979
In his hands.
885
00:53:53,563 --> 00:53:55,982
What was the next
thing that happened?
886
00:53:56,483 --> 00:53:58,902
I had turned away
887
00:53:58,944 --> 00:54:01,529
and, um...
888
00:54:03,281 --> 00:54:06,284
...I heard a blow.
889
00:54:10,372 --> 00:54:13,208
Eileen, did you see
the defendant kill Susan
890
00:54:13,250 --> 00:54:15,961
on September 22nd, 1969?
891
00:54:17,045 --> 00:54:18,588
Yes, I did.
892
00:54:21,716 --> 00:54:23,551
Thank you, nothing
further.
893
00:54:26,638 --> 00:54:30,183
All right. Mr. Horngrad.
894
00:54:30,225 --> 00:54:31,935
Thank you,
Your Honor.
895
00:54:31,977 --> 00:54:35,438
If I may, before
Ms. Franklin-Lipsker testifies,
896
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:37,899
we had indicated
to counsel and the court
897
00:54:37,941 --> 00:54:40,527
that we believe there was
an issue as to whether or not
898
00:54:40,568 --> 00:54:44,739
Ms. Lipsker had been hypnotized
before this revelation,
899
00:54:44,781 --> 00:54:47,075
before going to the authorities.
900
00:54:47,117 --> 00:54:48,618
And I think that puts
901
00:54:48,660 --> 00:54:50,787
the witness' credibility
in issue.
902
00:54:50,829 --> 00:54:52,789
And as the court knows,
if there has been hypnosis
903
00:54:52,831 --> 00:54:54,624
under the appropriate
circumstances,
904
00:54:54,666 --> 00:54:56,209
then this witness
is incompetent to testify.
905
00:54:56,251 --> 00:54:57,794
Your Honor, if I may respond.
906
00:54:57,836 --> 00:54:59,796
I think the matter can
be quite quickly resolved,
907
00:54:59,838 --> 00:55:01,464
that there will be
no evidence that hypnosis
908
00:55:01,506 --> 00:55:03,091
has ever occurred.
909
00:55:03,133 --> 00:55:06,011
I would suggest you just
address some questions to
910
00:55:06,052 --> 00:55:08,596
Ms. Franklin-Lipsker
in that regard
911
00:55:08,638 --> 00:55:10,473
and then the issue
will be submitted.
912
00:55:10,515 --> 00:55:11,975
Thank you, Your Honor.
913
00:55:14,227 --> 00:55:16,771
My cross-examination
of Eileen focused on
914
00:55:16,813 --> 00:55:20,483
- all the known lies she told.
- And they were legion.
915
00:55:21,860 --> 00:55:24,404
I think this story
about Eileen saying
916
00:55:24,446 --> 00:55:25,822
she looked into
her daughter's eyes
917
00:55:25,864 --> 00:55:27,907
and it reminded her
of Susan's look
918
00:55:27,949 --> 00:55:30,618
and all the rest of it is just
a bunch of dramatic nonsense.
919
00:55:30,660 --> 00:55:33,288
If you were going
to make up a story,
920
00:55:33,330 --> 00:55:35,790
that's a pretty good one
to make up, isn't it?
921
00:55:35,832 --> 00:55:37,500
"I looked into
my daughter's eyes
922
00:55:37,542 --> 00:55:38,835
and it reminded me of Susan."
923
00:55:38,877 --> 00:55:41,254
It's-- it sounds concocted.
924
00:55:42,005 --> 00:55:45,425
I was sitting in my family room
925
00:55:45,467 --> 00:55:48,428
and my daughter was sitting
on the floor below me
926
00:55:48,470 --> 00:55:50,472
and I was looking at my daughter
927
00:55:50,513 --> 00:55:52,474
and suddenly
she just reminded me
928
00:55:52,515 --> 00:55:57,020
so strikingly of Susan at that
moment and the memory started.
929
00:55:57,062 --> 00:56:02,150
I realized that my father
had murdered Susan.
930
00:56:03,401 --> 00:56:06,529
She had the memory,
if she had it at all,
931
00:56:07,697 --> 00:56:10,700
in her therapist's office
during hypnosis.
932
00:56:12,035 --> 00:56:13,953
She had said she was hypnotized.
933
00:56:13,995 --> 00:56:16,331
She told people she
was hypnotized,
934
00:56:16,373 --> 00:56:18,792
so that obviously
was the clue that she was,
935
00:56:18,833 --> 00:56:20,377
in fact, hypnotized.
936
00:56:20,794 --> 00:56:25,715
And if it's hypnotically
induced, it's not reliable.
937
00:56:26,466 --> 00:56:28,718
It's an unreliable memory.
938
00:56:30,553 --> 00:56:33,098
Good afternoon. I'm Douglas
Horngrad, representing
939
00:56:33,139 --> 00:56:37,060
your father. My question to you,
Ms. Lipsker, is,
940
00:56:37,102 --> 00:56:40,230
isn't it true
that you were hypnotized
941
00:56:40,271 --> 00:56:42,899
when you had that memory
of your dad
942
00:56:42,941 --> 00:56:45,777
being involved in this murder?77920
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