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Mr. Armistead, you are...
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No,got to start over again.
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That's my first name.
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Okay.
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Mr. Maupin, I guess you wouldcall yourself a gay writer.
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Not really.
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I'm a writer who is gay.
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I'm not a gay writer.
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I write aboutheterosexuals as well.
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My writing didn't really
flourish until I came out,
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because it's very impossible
to... to keep a huge secret in
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your heart and
be a good writer.
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I think it's very difficult.
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And my whole
success was concurrent with
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my coming out sexually.
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When I was a boy inRaleigh, I was afraid of being
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locked in OakwoodCemetery overnight.
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Every Sunday after church when
our blue tailed white Pontiac
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cruised through the entrance,
I fretted about the sign posted
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above us,
"Gates locked at 6:00 p.m."
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What if they lost
track of the time?
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That enormous gate would clang
shut and we would be trapped
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there all night eating
acorns for survival.
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My brother, my sister,
my parents and me,
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Cemetery Family Robinson.
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Oakwood Cemetery was not justthe landscape of our past,
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but also the veryblueprint of family.
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My father would eventually layout the rules for his children
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in a self-publishedfamily history.
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One thing is certain, the old man wrote,wherever one of these
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men met success,there was a self-effacing
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and goodly lady by his side.
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Back then,
I was still too young to realize that there would
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never be a lady by my side.
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I felt only this shapeless longing,
an oddly grown up ennui
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born of alienation and silence.
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Some little boys have
this feeling very early on.
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Sooner or later, though,
no matter where in the world we live,
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we must join the diaspora venturing beyond our biological family
40
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to find our logical one,
the one that actually makes sense for us.
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So maybe I was beginning tounderstand something on those
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Sunday afternoonsin the cemetery.
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Maybe I sensed that my true
genealogy lay somewhere beyond
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these gates
with another family.
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That would be scary, wouldn't it,
to know that my long held
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dream of family,
the one laid out by my father,
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came with a closing time
far more final than 6:00 p.m.
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Possibly
do you mind signing this?
49
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No. No. No.
That's is what I do.
50
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This is for Nadine.
51
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- And Olin.
- And Olin?
52
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Yeah. Thank you.
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I'm so happy to
hear that you're writing your memoir.
54
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We've waited
with baited breath.
55
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When
that shit coming out?
56
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Seventeen.
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I'm just delivering it
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Typical of anything that
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Armistead is involved with,
Tales of the City is a classic.
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And like a classic,
you can pick it up at any time of your life
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and get something different from it that's
just as powerful and just as meaningful.
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And you laugh, and you cry,and you... you feel close.
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You feel intimate.
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And that's something
that everyone craves.
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Initially,he was writing for a San Francisco audience,
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his neighbors, his friends,
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people he might meet at a party,
or on the street, or at a bar.
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Just San Francisco people.
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Oh, no, then when
he publishes a book.
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Well, America
discovered it, and...
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and then we
discovered it in Europe.
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00:03:58,947 --> 00:04:00,740
And whenArmistead arrives in London for
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a book reading,he's a Rockstar.
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And the audience is very
varied in age and sexualities.
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The quirkiness of his writing,the honesty of it, is something
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that just hooks peopleand... but all sorts of people.
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He loves the world but he
does find it hilariously funny.
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Wonderful.
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How are you, honey?
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Hey, darling.
I'm good.
81
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Books in the Castro, who knew?
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I know. Really.
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Do people read?
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I guess they do.
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They read you.
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I'm so proud
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Every morning,
a half a million people
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buy the
San Francisco Chronicle.
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For a lot of them, the most
important part of this paper
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is the inside back page.
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That's where you
read Tales of the City.
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00:05:01,801 --> 00:05:04,679
It also has made a local
celebrity out of its author,
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Armistead Maupin.
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Not long after Iarrived in San Francisco,
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I was writing feature piecesfor a Marin County weekly
96
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called the Pacific Sun.
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And what I wanted to domore than anything was just
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whacky stories around town.
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A woman friend of mine told methat I really should go down to
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the Marin Safeway and checkout the hetero cruising scene
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on Wednesday nights.
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So, I went down there,and sure enough, there
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were all these over-dressedyoung women and men
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kind of cruisingthe vegetable aisle.
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And I tried to find somebody toadmit that they had put on that
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rhinestone studded, brusheddenim pantsuit purposefully
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in order to get picked up.
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And there was... nobody
would tell me that they
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were there for that purpose.
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So, I went home completely frustrated and thought I'm going
111
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to have to do kind of a
fictionalized version of this.
112
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And I invented a new girl intown named Mary Ann Singleton.
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And at the end of her search after meeting a couple of jerks,
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she meets the man ofher dreams and he's there
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with the man of his dreams.
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And the story completelystruck a nerve, especially with
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straight women in San Franciscowho are figuring out why there
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were so many attractive but
unresponsive men in town.
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And the editors at the Pacific Sun said why don't you do this every week?
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Why don't you followher somewhere else?
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And so I did for about five weeks,
and it was called The Serial back then.
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While The Serial was appearing,one of the people reading it was
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Charles McCabe,who was a senior columnist at The Chronicle.
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And Charles was a brilliantessayist, very misogynistic,
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totally homophobic, but really
liked me, and loved the column.
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And he said,
I was just vulgar enough to make it work in The Chronicle.
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And so I asked him if he wouldget me an interview with
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the editor and publisher at the time,and I assured him that I
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could write thisthing on a daily basis.
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I lied.
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I basically lied.
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I was panicked.
133
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I thought how on earth
am I going to do this.
134
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And then I got the job.
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The Chronicle was thought of as sort of a
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colorful paper, and was trying
to fit what we thought was a
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more colorful and vibrant city,and we had a sense that that's
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sort of what most ofour readers wanted.
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The dayafter I got the job,
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I danced down Polk Street.
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I actually jumped up in the airand clicked my heels together,
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because I knew that I hadlanded on something that was
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going to make me famous.
144
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I knew it then, because
I had this subject matter
145
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that wasn't being covered.
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I came outto visit San Francisco and saw
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everyone loving everyone else,
and saw so much openness, and
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I just knew I had to be here.
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We decided that we had to have more freedom
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to be ourselves and we
came to San Francisco.
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There was a huge influx of LGBT people in the City,
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and they weren'tbeing written about.
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While it was fiction,and therefore, not norm
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for daily newspaper, that itwould be one of the ways that
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you could represent a lifestyle going on in the City at the time
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that you couldn't if you were
going to restrict yourself to
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purely, you know,
normal reporting.
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The managing editor of The Chronicle was very
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nervous about printingfiction in a newspaper.
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So, it had to have the fictional aspect in the title and it also
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had to indicate that itwas about San Francisco.
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And so they sent me fivepossibilities, and among those
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was Tales of the City.
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And I looked at it and thought,ooh, that's got kind of a
165
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Dickensian ring and so Isaid, that's the one I want.
166
00:09:13,970 --> 00:09:16,639
Mary AnnSingleton was 25 years old when
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she saw San Franciscofor the first time.
168
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She came to the City alonefor an eight-day vacation.
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On the fifth night,she drank three Irish coffees at the Buena Vista,
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realized that her mood ring was blue,and decided to phone her mother in Cleveland.
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Mary Ann wasin many ways, my alter ego,
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because I wasthe new girl in town, too.
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I was looking at thisstrange new world in a state of
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perplexity, andwonder, and fear.
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She maybe judges people a little bit too much,
the way I can do
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in front of a pleasant façade,
but I'm thinking what an idiot.
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Michael Toliver is a romantic,gay man with a big slut side.
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That's me.
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I was having fun.
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I was really having my adolescence,and yet, in each of
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our little gay boy hearts,
there was this thought that
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you could also be in love.
183
00:10:16,407 --> 00:10:21,495
And I poured a lot of my grandmother into the character of Mrs.Madrigal.
184
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My grandmother was a suffragist who made speeches all over England.
185
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She read my palm whenI was a little boy.
186
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She was awonderful air, fairy,
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almost seemingly
psychic old lady.
188
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She was really very dear to me.
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I think thegreatest influence on me.
190
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And I told my grandmother just before she died at the age of 97,
191
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that I had put her spirit into one of the charactersand I was so glad to be able to do that.
192
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Yes.
193
00:11:03,704 --> 00:11:04,538
Yeah.
194
00:11:05,581 --> 00:11:06,415
Yes.
195
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Good.
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You're one of us then.
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Welcome to 28 Barbary Lane.
198
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Thank you.
199
00:11:17,802 --> 00:11:20,179
Yes, you should.
200
00:11:36,987 --> 00:11:39,198
I was born whilemy father was a skipper of a
201
00:11:39,281 --> 00:11:42,034
minesweeper inthe South Pacific.
202
00:11:42,118 --> 00:11:45,788
He actually found out aboutmy birth through semaphore.
203
00:11:45,871 --> 00:11:50,668
It was something like baby boy born,mother and son doing fine.
204
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So, I didn't see myfather for a year and a half.
205
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I was the great greatgrandson of a Confederate
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general who died at Antietam.
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00:12:00,636 --> 00:12:04,140
His name wasLawrence O'Brien Branch.
208
00:12:04,223 --> 00:12:07,852
He was a U.S. Congressman before he served in the Confederacy,
209
00:12:07,935 --> 00:12:11,188
and actually made a speech onthe floor of Congress in which
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he says that he will die for the right to take his property to
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the new territories because they were passing laws that said
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that slaves could not be brought to places like New Mexico.
213
00:12:23,492 --> 00:12:27,913
And he said this was socialist Europeans imposing themselves on our...
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our country and
our sense of property.
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And... and he did die for it.
216
00:12:36,839 --> 00:12:39,842
So, we were always told thatwe were Southern aristocracy.
217
00:12:39,925 --> 00:12:43,429
We lived in a suburban ranch house that looked kind of like a
218
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Howard Johnson's, butwe were very aware that,
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you know, we had good blood.
220
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All ourSouthern heritage was based
221
00:12:54,356 --> 00:12:59,069
around the Civil War, the Confederacy,going to the right church,
222
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and making your debut,
which I was somewhat forced to do,
223
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saying yes, ma'am, and yes, sir,
and we were very much in that Southern tradition.
224
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We were taught to begentlemen and Southern belles.
225
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My father was a lawyer and I can remembergoing down to visit him downtown.
226
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And they had colored water fountains and white water fountains.
227
00:13:25,888 --> 00:13:29,975
My father had quite a difficult
time with... with civil rights
228
00:13:30,059 --> 00:13:32,603
and anything that
went against what the type
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of world he had lived in.
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I suppose you couldsay he was a white supremacist.
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Everything about hislife indicated that.
232
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I remember going to the beach onetime with our maid and her daughter.
233
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She must havebeen ten or eleven.
234
00:13:50,246 --> 00:13:53,916
And I got mad at her becauseshe had taken my steam shovel
235
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and I called her the N word.
236
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And my mother grabbed me by the arm and jerked me away and said,
237
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"You do not say that word ever.
238
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You've hurt her feelings."
239
00:14:05,636 --> 00:14:07,805
And I said, "But daddy
says it all the time."
240
00:14:07,888 --> 00:14:09,890
"That doesn't matter.
He's your father."
241
00:14:11,058 --> 00:14:14,645
She stood up for him, andprotected him, but privately
242
00:14:14,728 --> 00:14:18,482
told her children notto behave that way.
243
00:14:19,900 --> 00:14:23,529
My motherwas a beautiful, gracious,
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gentle soul and very loving.
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She was the buffer I think forus with my father, who,
246
00:14:29,577 --> 00:14:32,830
on the other hand, never showed
a lot of affection to us.
247
00:14:32,913 --> 00:14:36,917
I think we knew he loved us,
but I was always forever,
248
00:14:37,001 --> 00:14:39,003
for years trying to get his
approval and love.
249
00:14:39,086 --> 00:14:43,674
And that's sort of the way he setup his relationship with his children.
250
00:14:44,842 --> 00:14:46,385
Armistead is my oldest brother.
251
00:14:46,468 --> 00:14:50,347
He is five years older than me,and then there's a middle brother,
252
00:14:50,431 --> 00:14:53,350
Tony, who istwo years older than me.
253
00:14:53,434 --> 00:14:57,730
I call my brother Teddy,
and I've been calling him
254
00:14:57,813 --> 00:14:59,732
that since I can remember.
255
00:14:59,815 --> 00:15:02,026
He is Armistead
Jones Maupin, Jr.
256
00:15:02,109 --> 00:15:04,111
Our father was Big Armistead.
257
00:15:05,487 --> 00:15:08,824
When he was a teenager,my mother was always suggesting why
258
00:15:08,908 --> 00:15:13,621
don't you go ask Mary Jane out for a date or someone like that.
259
00:15:13,704 --> 00:15:16,790
And so I never sort of saw him
as a mover and a shaker as...
260
00:15:16,874 --> 00:15:19,460
as you know
in the dating scene.
261
00:15:27,384 --> 00:15:30,346
During the period where I was waiting for Tales to begin,
262
00:15:30,429 --> 00:15:32,890
I actually met Rock Hudson.
263
00:15:32,973 --> 00:15:35,684
He was visiting San Franciscoand invited us up to
264
00:15:35,768 --> 00:15:38,896
his suite atthe Fairmont Hotel.
265
00:15:38,979 --> 00:15:40,773
And he said, "I have alittle reading to do."
266
00:15:40,856 --> 00:15:43,567
And he produced the bulldogedition of The Chronicle, which
267
00:15:43,651 --> 00:15:47,613
was the early edition thatappeared the night before.
268
00:15:47,696 --> 00:15:52,117
So, he stood up, a little
drunkenly, and read the first
269
00:15:52,201 --> 00:15:57,373
chapter of Tales of the City,
which includes a moment where
270
00:15:57,456 --> 00:16:01,168
Mary Ann's mother tells her you have to leave there immediately.
271
00:16:01,251 --> 00:16:04,421
I was watching
McMillan & Wife and there was
272
00:16:04,505 --> 00:16:06,548
a serial killer on the loose.
273
00:16:06,632 --> 00:16:08,676
Pick me up.
I'll be downstairs.
274
00:16:08,884 --> 00:16:11,512
He meant it to be
charming and I was charmed.
275
00:16:12,012 --> 00:16:18,519
And the next day he and his partner
invited me to dinner in San Francisco.
276
00:16:20,896 --> 00:16:22,439
Do you want me to go on?
277
00:16:22,523 --> 00:16:23,816
I was
just going to ask...
278
00:16:23,899 --> 00:16:25,025
Oh, how sexy
are we going to get here?
279
00:16:25,109 --> 00:16:27,027
- Oh, we're going there.
- All right.
280
00:16:28,529 --> 00:16:31,365
The first time it was at a little French restaurant.
281
00:16:32,241 --> 00:16:36,954
They got quite drunk and whenthe evening was over, Tom said,
282
00:16:37,037 --> 00:16:39,873
"I'm just going togo back to the room."
283
00:16:39,957 --> 00:16:45,421
And Rock and I caught a cable car up the hill heading up to the Fairmont.
284
00:16:45,504 --> 00:16:48,424
And by the time we got up to the Diplomat Suite,Rock and I were
285
00:16:48,507 --> 00:16:52,094
sitting across the room from each other and he said at one point,
286
00:16:52,177 --> 00:16:55,723
"Well, I should be over there or you should be over here."
287
00:16:55,806 --> 00:17:00,811
Which was about as
dreamy as something could be.
288
00:17:00,894 --> 00:17:03,856
Although I was completely
and utterly terrified.
289
00:17:04,565 --> 00:17:10,570
And I just did not perform well at all and it was very touching,
290
00:17:10,654 --> 00:17:13,073
because apparently, it
happened to him all the time.
291
00:17:13,615 --> 00:17:16,242
And he sat next to me andput his arm around me and said,
292
00:17:16,326 --> 00:17:19,038
"You know I'm justa regular guy."
293
00:17:19,121 --> 00:17:21,707
And I said, "No, you're not.
294
00:17:21,790 --> 00:17:23,291
And I'm Doris Day."
295
00:17:23,375 --> 00:17:25,461
Don't take your
bedroom problems out on me.
296
00:17:25,544 --> 00:17:27,128
I have
no bedroom problems.
297
00:17:27,212 --> 00:17:29,298
There's nothing in my
bedroom that bothers me.
298
00:17:29,381 --> 00:17:31,884
Oh, that's too bad.
299
00:17:32,259 --> 00:17:33,844
There was asecond time and there was
300
00:17:33,927 --> 00:17:36,221
once with him and his partner.
301
00:17:37,264 --> 00:17:40,184
Oh, and there was a timeafter a gallery opening.
302
00:17:42,102 --> 00:17:45,856
I just eventually stopped trying to get together with him because
303
00:17:45,939 --> 00:17:49,526
I was coming out of thecloset and he was firmly in it.
304
00:17:49,610 --> 00:17:52,738
And I ended up writing about him in Further Tales of the City,
305
00:17:52,821 --> 00:17:55,574
but I put blankswhere his name would be.
306
00:18:02,956 --> 00:18:04,833
Good evening,
ladies and gentlemen.
307
00:18:04,917 --> 00:18:08,587
We are proud to
present Armistead Maupin.
308
00:18:08,670 --> 00:18:10,506
Thank you.
309
00:18:16,970 --> 00:18:19,556
Drunken bears,
there's nothing like it.
310
00:18:20,432 --> 00:18:24,186
I grew up in Raleigh in
the South, and had a very...
311
00:18:24,269 --> 00:18:25,896
Okay, you can clap
for it if you want.
312
00:18:27,981 --> 00:18:30,067
You know there are a lot...
you know, so many things to still
313
00:18:30,150 --> 00:18:31,735
love about the
South except possibly the
314
00:18:31,819 --> 00:18:34,780
people and the politicians.
315
00:18:35,781 --> 00:18:38,242
But I grew up tryingto please my daddy.
316
00:18:39,159 --> 00:18:43,080
He was all I'd ever had interms of a moral compass.
317
00:18:43,163 --> 00:18:45,499
And so, everything he said Ithought, well, it must be true,
318
00:18:45,582 --> 00:18:47,209
because he says it.
319
00:18:47,292 --> 00:18:49,378
And I was actuallyembracing conservatism.
320
00:18:49,461 --> 00:18:52,297
By the time I was 16 years old,I remember being interviewed by
321
00:18:52,381 --> 00:18:55,592
the Raleigh paper and I said,"We young conservatives are
322
00:18:55,676 --> 00:18:58,428
going to make adifference when we grow up."
323
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,641
This is Viewpoint,
the daily editorial expression
324
00:19:02,724 --> 00:19:06,645
of WRAL Televisionvoiced by Jesse Helms.
325
00:19:07,354 --> 00:19:10,899
Michigan's very liberal senior
United States Senator...
326
00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:13,944
I flunkedout of law school.
327
00:19:14,027 --> 00:19:16,947
So, I thumbed home to
Raleigh and told my father
328
00:19:17,030 --> 00:19:18,490
I didn't want to be a lawyer.
329
00:19:19,408 --> 00:19:20,659
And he said,
"We'll get you a job."
330
00:19:20,742 --> 00:19:22,870
So, he talked to a friend of his,
and he said, "Well, you can
331
00:19:22,953 --> 00:19:27,374
come down and work for him at the TV station,
and write news."
332
00:19:27,457 --> 00:19:32,588
And so, Jesse Helms gaveme my first writing job.
333
00:19:32,671 --> 00:19:35,257
He thought I was the
hope of the future.
334
00:19:37,676 --> 00:19:41,138
The only fucking thing
he's ever been right about.
335
00:19:42,806 --> 00:19:47,394
That man's legacy was in the hatred he spewed his entire life.
336
00:19:50,606 --> 00:19:55,944
I was sent out one day by JesseHelms to cover a Klan rally.
337
00:19:56,028 --> 00:19:58,030
And I interviewedthe Imperial Wizard.
338
00:19:58,113 --> 00:20:01,742
And at the time, Dean Rusk, whowas the Secretary of State,
339
00:20:01,825 --> 00:20:05,204
had a daughter who had marriedan African American man.
340
00:20:05,287 --> 00:20:08,081
And I asked the Imperial Wizard what he thought about it.
341
00:20:08,165 --> 00:20:14,129
And he said, "Well,
what else would you expect from a man who's a practicing homosexual?"
342
00:20:16,215 --> 00:20:20,844
And I went back to the station and told Jesse this scoop I had gotten,
343
00:20:20,928 --> 00:20:23,555
and Jesse went white.
344
00:20:23,639 --> 00:20:28,518
Whiter than he normally was and
said, "That is absolutely the
345
00:20:28,602 --> 00:20:31,396
worst thing you can
say about anybody."
346
00:20:32,856 --> 00:20:36,193
And I took it on.
347
00:20:36,276 --> 00:20:37,152
I heard it.
348
00:20:38,487 --> 00:20:41,198
I knew it wasnothing that you could be.
349
00:20:41,281 --> 00:20:44,826
But Jesse was the firstperson that just spelled out
350
00:20:44,910 --> 00:20:47,079
what an awful thing it was.
351
00:20:47,829 --> 00:20:51,541
Many homosexuals
average 16 different sex
352
00:20:51,625 --> 00:20:53,335
partners every month.
353
00:20:53,835 --> 00:20:56,338
The reason Iam embraced conservatism was
354
00:20:56,421 --> 00:20:58,840
I was terrified of who I was.
355
00:20:58,924 --> 00:21:00,759
And so you keep thelid on, and you want the
356
00:21:00,842 --> 00:21:03,262
lid on for everybody
else, and they all have to
357
00:21:03,345 --> 00:21:05,639
march in that straight line.
358
00:21:10,936 --> 00:21:13,313
I volunteered for Vietnam,because I think I still had some
359
00:21:13,397 --> 00:21:17,192
manhood issues going on andI wanted to go to the war.
360
00:21:17,943 --> 00:21:21,571
My mother said I had a Lawrenceof Arabia complex,
361
00:21:21,655 --> 00:21:24,408
which was a lot closer
than she knew.
362
00:21:26,702 --> 00:21:30,330
And I found myselfvolunteering for more and more
363
00:21:30,414 --> 00:21:34,251
rigorous places because I needto write home colorful stories
364
00:21:34,334 --> 00:21:39,214
to my father to show that Iwas fighting for my country.
365
00:21:39,298 --> 00:21:43,593
And I ended up in a little place on theCambodian border called Chau Doc.
366
00:21:48,223 --> 00:21:52,602
I met Armistead in November of December of 1969.
367
00:21:53,228 --> 00:21:56,440
I was kind of shocked in some
ways, because, while I hadn't
368
00:21:56,523 --> 00:22:00,277
been trained for a lot of the
things I had to do on the boats
369
00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:03,864
when I got there, especially
going out in the weeds and
370
00:22:03,947 --> 00:22:07,492
laying up ambushes and all thattype of thing, Armistead came
371
00:22:07,576 --> 00:22:10,829
out from Saigon, where he wasserving as a protocol officer
372
00:22:10,912 --> 00:22:13,707
and he hadn't beentrained for anything that was
373
00:22:13,790 --> 00:22:15,375
out where we were either.
374
00:22:18,545 --> 00:22:21,798
He went out and learned what hewas going, and went up and down
375
00:22:21,882 --> 00:22:25,427
the canals, and I admiredhim for all that, because
376
00:22:25,510 --> 00:22:27,429
it can get pretty dangerous.
377
00:22:29,806 --> 00:22:32,809
You're asked to go and do it,
and you do it, and you remember it,
378
00:22:32,893 --> 00:22:35,020
and you should be
proud of it at times.
379
00:22:36,646 --> 00:22:38,690
Maybe you don't agree
with why you're there,
380
00:22:38,774 --> 00:22:40,609
but you... you're there.
381
00:22:41,401 --> 00:22:42,736
Hell no, we won't go.
382
00:22:42,819 --> 00:22:44,446
Hell no, we won't go.
383
00:22:44,529 --> 00:22:46,531
Hell no, we won't go.
384
00:22:47,616 --> 00:22:50,327
We cannot considerourselves America's best men
385
00:22:50,410 --> 00:22:53,371
when we are ashamed of
and hated what we were called
386
00:22:53,455 --> 00:22:55,499
on to do in Southeast Asia.
387
00:22:56,666 --> 00:22:58,502
I had
a friend call me.
388
00:22:58,585 --> 00:23:02,255
He asked me if I would come to Washington and do press releases
389
00:23:02,339 --> 00:23:05,926
for John Kerry, who at that time,
was organizing the Vietnam
390
00:23:06,009 --> 00:23:07,803
Veterans Against the War.
391
00:23:08,553 --> 00:23:11,598
I didn't feel the way Mr. Kerry
did, and as a result, I got
392
00:23:11,681 --> 00:23:14,309
pretty angry and
wanted to do something.
393
00:23:14,392 --> 00:23:17,479
So, I wrote a letter to Admiral Zumwalt and asked if the
394
00:23:17,562 --> 00:23:22,484
government would help out with
a project in which Vietnamese
395
00:23:22,567 --> 00:23:25,487
veterans could return to Vietnam to help the Vietnamese people.
396
00:23:26,238 --> 00:23:29,074
Ten of us went back toVietnam on a humanitarian
397
00:23:29,157 --> 00:23:31,701
project and built houses.
398
00:23:31,785 --> 00:23:34,788
It looked like a bad motel,really, when we were done.
399
00:23:34,871 --> 00:23:36,915
We had no skill at all.
400
00:23:36,998 --> 00:23:40,752
But at the end of it,the White House called and said that
401
00:23:40,836 --> 00:23:43,839
President Nixon wants tosee me in the Oval Office.
402
00:23:43,922 --> 00:23:46,842
We showed up at the White Houseand were ushered in to meet
403
00:23:46,925 --> 00:23:49,469
Richard Nixon, and Iwas immediately aware
404
00:23:49,553 --> 00:23:51,680
of how insecure he was.
405
00:23:52,180 --> 00:23:55,350
The factthat you served there and were
406
00:23:55,433 --> 00:23:58,436
willing to go back and help thepeople there, of course, really
407
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,731
demonstrates soclearly what it's all about.
408
00:24:01,815 --> 00:24:06,403
I have never seen a figure asspectacular as the Vietnamese.
409
00:24:06,486 --> 00:24:09,156
The Vietnamesewomen are actually...
410
00:24:09,239 --> 00:24:11,783
They're so
sexy in their little Áo dài.
411
00:24:11,867 --> 00:24:14,452
You know they fly out
when they ride their bicycles,
412
00:24:14,536 --> 00:24:16,329
and it's real...
413
00:24:16,413 --> 00:24:17,664
And I thought
oh, my god, the...
414
00:24:19,833 --> 00:24:22,544
He picked the queer to
say this to, you know.
415
00:24:24,337 --> 00:24:25,881
My fatherwas over the moon.
416
00:24:25,964 --> 00:24:27,507
You know, I hadworked for Jesse Helms.
417
00:24:27,591 --> 00:24:28,592
I had met Nixon.
418
00:24:28,675 --> 00:24:30,719
Nixon had invited me back.
419
00:24:30,802 --> 00:24:34,598
I was doing everything,
everything that I needed to do
420
00:24:34,681 --> 00:24:36,016
to make him happy.
421
00:24:36,099 --> 00:24:37,434
He was very, very proud of me.
422
00:24:38,226 --> 00:24:42,939
And he hadn't...he still didn't know the main truth about me.
423
00:24:50,572 --> 00:24:53,325
Thefirst time I met Armistead,
424
00:24:53,408 --> 00:24:58,955
we talked about the strangeness
of writing fiction that
425
00:24:59,039 --> 00:25:02,209
is being read as you go along.
426
00:25:02,292 --> 00:25:06,087
I was doing Sandman and you were doing in The Chronicle that sort
427
00:25:06,171 --> 00:25:09,174
of Dickensian thing of
writing serial fictions.
428
00:25:09,257 --> 00:25:13,261
Did things ever happen that
surprised you when you realized
429
00:25:13,345 --> 00:25:15,222
how well you had set
things up without...
430
00:25:15,305 --> 00:25:16,139
All the time.
431
00:25:16,223 --> 00:25:17,641
...realizing
what you were doing?
432
00:25:17,724 --> 00:25:18,558
All the time.
433
00:25:18,642 --> 00:25:21,353
The coolest things I have ever done have just come out of the moment.
434
00:25:21,645 --> 00:25:23,313
We've both beenconscious of keeping
435
00:25:23,396 --> 00:25:25,607
an audience with a story.
436
00:25:25,690 --> 00:25:27,984
When they hired me, they said,
"We need six weeks' worth."
437
00:25:28,068 --> 00:25:31,112
So, that was 30
episodes, 30 chapters.
438
00:25:31,196 --> 00:25:34,032
Pretty soon, I got confidentenough, that I just goofed off,
439
00:25:34,115 --> 00:25:36,201
and I just ate upmy whole backlog.
440
00:25:36,284 --> 00:25:37,953
So, I would haveto come in and think
441
00:25:38,036 --> 00:25:39,329
you have to write something.
442
00:25:39,412 --> 00:25:42,624
This woman was coming over to
my desk and saying, "Write."
443
00:25:44,417 --> 00:25:46,336
Whatwas amazing about Armistead was
444
00:25:46,419 --> 00:25:50,173
that he would come in in the
morning, no notebook, no notes,
445
00:25:50,257 --> 00:25:55,095
no help, and he's sit down at a
desk that was bare of anything,
446
00:25:55,178 --> 00:26:00,892
at an IBM Selectric typewriter,
which is unforgiving.
447
00:26:01,935 --> 00:26:06,690
What impressed me is actually
how good he was at getting that
448
00:26:06,773 --> 00:26:09,818
copy out in a short
time five days a week.
449
00:26:10,944 --> 00:26:13,863
I kind of identifiedwith Mary Ann Singleton.
450
00:26:13,947 --> 00:26:18,410
I'm a straight laced,middle class, Midwestern person.
451
00:26:18,493 --> 00:26:22,163
So, I was really fascinated bythis world that was opening up
452
00:26:22,247 --> 00:26:26,293
to me and to all of TheChronicle's readers too.
453
00:26:26,376 --> 00:26:28,128
And I think I've
repressed a lot of what...
454
00:26:28,211 --> 00:26:33,883
of the stories in there,
because you know I suppose
455
00:26:33,967 --> 00:26:37,220
part of me didn't
quite approve.
456
00:26:59,534 --> 00:27:01,411
Iremember that in that column,
457
00:27:01,494 --> 00:27:03,747
two men woke upin bed together.
458
00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:06,666
The morphing from just being
a... a sort of interesting,
459
00:27:06,750 --> 00:27:12,213
unusual, somewhat controversial
column aimed at the colorful
460
00:27:12,297 --> 00:27:15,717
youth of San Francisco, it
did slowly morph into obviously
461
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,595
being a largely
gay themed column.
462
00:27:18,678 --> 00:27:20,722
But it happened slowly and
I'm sure a lot of people were
463
00:27:20,805 --> 00:27:23,767
picking up on it
way before I was.
464
00:27:23,850 --> 00:27:26,061
The managing editor
of The Chronicle, who was sort
465
00:27:26,144 --> 00:27:29,647
of in charge of handling
Tales, got very nervous when he
466
00:27:29,731 --> 00:27:33,026
realized that Michael Toliver
was going to be a regular
467
00:27:33,109 --> 00:27:35,820
character, and that
other gay characters,
468
00:27:35,904 --> 00:27:38,490
and lesbians were showing up.
469
00:27:38,573 --> 00:27:43,036
So, he actually createda chart in his office.
470
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,206
And when characters wereintroduced, he would put them
471
00:27:46,289 --> 00:27:49,209
into the appropriate column.
472
00:27:49,292 --> 00:27:52,629
And the theory was that itshould at no time be more than
473
00:27:52,712 --> 00:27:55,006
30 % homosexual.
474
00:27:55,090 --> 00:27:58,468
It annoyed me so
much, that I had a quota.
475
00:27:58,551 --> 00:28:02,806
His fiction
is almost a Trojan horse.
476
00:28:02,889 --> 00:28:08,311
It smuggles in all sorts of
things and all sorts of things
477
00:28:08,395 --> 00:28:11,147
under the guise of
being a fantastic story
478
00:28:11,231 --> 00:28:13,066
about people
you're interested in.
479
00:28:14,234 --> 00:28:16,111
My intention withAnna Madrigal from the very
480
00:28:16,194 --> 00:28:18,696
beginning, was thatshe be transgender.
481
00:28:18,780 --> 00:28:21,699
I'd made the mistake of telling
or maybe not the mistake when I
482
00:28:21,783 --> 00:28:23,743
look back on it, but
I told the editors and
483
00:28:23,827 --> 00:28:26,246
they were pretty horrified.
484
00:28:26,329 --> 00:28:28,415
And they said, "Well,you cannot say anything
485
00:28:28,498 --> 00:28:31,376
about that for a while."
486
00:28:31,459 --> 00:28:35,130
Their fear actually served me,because I could develop her as a
487
00:28:35,213 --> 00:28:38,550
character, and make her a womanof mystery, and have people
488
00:28:38,633 --> 00:28:40,635
curious about herat the same time that
489
00:28:40,719 --> 00:28:42,679
they're learning to love her.
490
00:28:42,762 --> 00:28:46,725
So, that by the time that I didtell her story,
491
00:28:46,808 --> 00:28:49,519
they would be onboard,
and that's exactly what happened.
492
00:28:50,186 --> 00:28:52,522
We all
did it stealth back then.
493
00:28:52,605 --> 00:28:53,857
No one was way, way out.
494
00:28:53,940 --> 00:28:56,818
I was just starting
to come way, way out.
495
00:28:57,777 --> 00:29:01,072
We were mostly all likeAnna Madrigal in those days.
496
00:29:01,156 --> 00:29:03,116
We wanted to be respectable.
497
00:29:03,742 --> 00:29:07,787
We wanted people not to know
except who wanted them to know.
498
00:29:07,871 --> 00:29:09,622
I wasn't like that.
499
00:29:09,706 --> 00:29:10,707
I just said, "Fuck it.
500
00:29:10,790 --> 00:29:12,292
Here, this is me.
501
00:29:12,584 --> 00:29:13,460
Not a man.
502
00:29:13,543 --> 00:29:14,669
Not a woman."
503
00:29:16,337 --> 00:29:19,507
I moved to San Franciscoin '88, started immediately
504
00:29:19,591 --> 00:29:22,177
reading the books then.
505
00:29:22,260 --> 00:29:27,807
I thought look at this, atranssexual who isn't a serial
506
00:29:27,891 --> 00:29:33,271
killer, isn't a rapist, isn't
some kind of terrible pervert,
507
00:29:33,354 --> 00:29:35,231
is just a nice person.
508
00:29:36,107 --> 00:29:39,360
And they're just weren't
that many role models.
509
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,282
I think there were a lot of young,
gay men and
510
00:29:44,365 --> 00:29:51,206
women and trans people who...
who had nothing to hang onto,
511
00:29:51,289 --> 00:29:53,041
who had no story.
512
00:29:53,917 --> 00:29:55,752
And Armistead did it.
513
00:29:55,835 --> 00:30:02,759
He gave them a sense of
hope, and joy, and security.
514
00:30:03,843 --> 00:30:06,513
What I wanted out of
literature and what I had never
515
00:30:06,596 --> 00:30:11,100
found in literature was a story that would incorporate everyone,
516
00:30:11,184 --> 00:30:13,186
that would place my
life in the context
517
00:30:13,269 --> 00:30:14,771
of the rest of the world.
518
00:30:14,854 --> 00:30:18,149
So that gay people, and straight people,
and in between people
519
00:30:18,233 --> 00:30:21,986
would fit together all onone large canvas and function
520
00:30:22,070 --> 00:30:24,197
lovingly with each other.
521
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,157
And I'm sure that there was a lot of
522
00:30:26,241 --> 00:30:29,661
nervousness on the part of the
management as to just how far
523
00:30:29,744 --> 00:30:33,706
Army was going with his stories
and of course they... they were
524
00:30:33,790 --> 00:30:35,708
concerned about readership.
525
00:30:35,792 --> 00:30:38,711
They didn't want anybodycancelling their subscriptions
526
00:30:38,795 --> 00:30:41,589
because of somethingoffensive in the paper.
527
00:30:58,022 --> 00:31:01,150
"Down with the gay
life in quotes."
528
00:31:01,234 --> 00:31:02,527
They still say that.
529
00:31:02,610 --> 00:31:04,529
Why do you call it
gay when it's not gay?
530
00:31:04,612 --> 00:31:05,738
Well, it is gay.
531
00:31:05,822 --> 00:31:07,949
It's very gay in
every sense of the world.
532
00:31:14,330 --> 00:31:17,292
You know when people get really
angry and start flinging Jesus
533
00:31:17,375 --> 00:31:22,130
at you, that you've... you're
speaking some truth.
534
00:31:29,512 --> 00:31:30,722
I loved that one.
535
00:31:30,805 --> 00:31:31,973
Loved that one.
536
00:31:32,807 --> 00:31:36,019
This just tells methat they were into it.
537
00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:40,982
I lured them into a world they didn't want to think about.
538
00:31:41,566 --> 00:31:43,610
The idea that he was doing
this in a newspaper in
539
00:31:43,693 --> 00:31:49,198
a... in what they call
a family newspaper,
540
00:31:49,282 --> 00:31:51,075
that is not
just groundbreaking.
541
00:31:51,159 --> 00:31:57,707
That takes chutzpa and, you know,
testicles the size of asteroids.
542
00:32:13,306 --> 00:32:15,099
I first became interested in photography
543
00:32:15,183 --> 00:32:17,769
when I was in myearly twenties.
544
00:32:17,852 --> 00:32:22,315
I was a model in Milan
and... and London as well.
545
00:32:22,398 --> 00:32:24,943
And just working with all
these amazing photographers,
546
00:32:25,026 --> 00:32:26,527
sort of got me interested.
547
00:32:26,611 --> 00:32:28,488
And I was always a little shy on the other side of the camera.
548
00:32:28,571 --> 00:32:30,156
It was sort of astretch, which is one of
549
00:32:30,239 --> 00:32:31,991
the reasons I wanted to do it.
550
00:32:32,075 --> 00:32:36,037
And it also interested me
because it was a way to combine
551
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,915
very technical stuff as
well as creative work.
552
00:32:46,005 --> 00:32:47,465
Darling.
553
00:32:47,757 --> 00:32:49,759
Armisteadand Chris, they're like some
554
00:32:49,842 --> 00:32:56,724
kind of strange storybook
couple, in that each of them
555
00:32:56,808 --> 00:32:58,810
is the other one's ideal.
556
00:33:00,228 --> 00:33:05,191
It's like Armistead was beingwritten by a beneficent creator
557
00:33:05,274 --> 00:33:10,446
with a plan, who started off
going okay, you are going to be
558
00:33:10,530 --> 00:33:15,660
this repressed right-wing kid
from North Carolina but just
559
00:33:15,743 --> 00:33:19,747
stick through the story, and
at the end, you will get your
560
00:33:19,831 --> 00:33:21,833
happily ever after.
561
00:33:24,252 --> 00:33:25,962
The way thatChris and I met was sort of a
562
00:33:26,045 --> 00:33:28,381
combination of theold and the new.
563
00:33:28,464 --> 00:33:31,801
My housekeeper had been onthis website called DaddyHunt.
564
00:33:31,884 --> 00:33:33,428
It was just forolder men in general, who
565
00:33:33,511 --> 00:33:35,179
were finding each other on it.
566
00:33:35,263 --> 00:33:38,975
And I noticed in the personalsthere this young guy who the
567
00:33:39,058 --> 00:33:42,687
most beautiful blue-eyed gaze.
568
00:33:42,770 --> 00:33:44,272
He was gorgeous.
569
00:33:44,355 --> 00:33:47,900
My younger friends were saying,
"Oh, my God, he's really hot."
570
00:33:47,984 --> 00:33:49,193
And I said, "Forget it.
571
00:33:49,277 --> 00:33:52,363
He only likes them over 45."
572
00:33:52,447 --> 00:33:54,532
The way he tells it,
is that he stumbled
573
00:33:54,615 --> 00:33:59,495
over my profile and was sort of stopped by it and printed out my photo,
574
00:33:59,579 --> 00:34:02,623
and put it on his desk,
and but never really had any
575
00:34:02,707 --> 00:34:04,917
intention of
contacting me through the site.
576
00:34:05,001 --> 00:34:06,419
And then one day,
I was walking through
577
00:34:06,502 --> 00:34:10,630
the Castro and I saw him,
and we... our eyes... we...
578
00:34:10,715 --> 00:34:12,800
we did the little cruisy thing.
579
00:34:12,884 --> 00:34:14,177
You were coming this way.
580
00:34:14,260 --> 00:34:15,136
Uh-huh.
581
00:34:15,219 --> 00:34:17,096
And I
was going that way.
582
00:34:17,346 --> 00:34:22,018
And we did the
old-fashioned stop and twirl.
583
00:34:22,101 --> 00:34:24,603
And I just turned aroundand went back to him and said
584
00:34:24,687 --> 00:34:27,648
perfect line, just
remembered, it's so good,
585
00:34:27,732 --> 00:34:30,650
"Didn't I see you
on a website?"
586
00:34:31,902 --> 00:34:33,362
And I said, "Which one?"
587
00:34:33,446 --> 00:34:35,072
And he said, "DaddyHunt.com."
588
00:34:36,491 --> 00:34:39,702
Which thrilled me because at the time,
this was like right after
589
00:34:39,786 --> 00:34:41,370
I had launched the site.
590
00:34:41,454 --> 00:34:44,415
Well, it turned out
he owned the website.
591
00:34:45,458 --> 00:34:47,460
And that some of thecaptions appreciating
592
00:34:47,543 --> 00:34:49,879
older men had been his.
593
00:34:52,715 --> 00:34:55,217
When Istarted DaddyHunt, a lot of it
594
00:34:55,301 --> 00:34:57,386
for me wasa political statement,
595
00:34:57,470 --> 00:35:01,349
because I had always been attracted to older men,
but I felt like a lot of the gay
596
00:35:01,432 --> 00:35:03,726
community was very ageist.
597
00:35:03,810 --> 00:35:08,064
The original tagline waswiser, stronger, hotter.
598
00:35:08,147 --> 00:35:12,026
I really wanted to emphasize
that there were qualities of
599
00:35:12,110 --> 00:35:16,322
getting older that...
that should be respected.
600
00:35:16,405 --> 00:35:18,324
The disparity
between the two of us that
601
00:35:18,407 --> 00:35:20,576
a lot of people don't
understand is not an issue,
602
00:35:20,660 --> 00:35:22,745
because we understand it.
603
00:35:22,829 --> 00:35:24,497
We understand what we have.
604
00:35:25,706 --> 00:35:29,043
He has made me feel
more confident in my body
605
00:35:30,461 --> 00:35:32,171
than I have ever been myself.
606
00:35:32,255 --> 00:35:34,966
I've started to own
this, for instance.
607
00:35:35,675 --> 00:35:38,678
A lot of guys like
that, amazingly.
608
00:35:40,471 --> 00:35:42,682
Pretty much since day one,Armistead and I
609
00:35:42,765 --> 00:35:47,687
acknowledged that we wantedto have an open relationship.
610
00:35:47,770 --> 00:35:50,898
I think part of it was
from past experience in other
611
00:35:50,982 --> 00:35:54,318
relationships, realizing that
not only the relationships that
612
00:35:54,402 --> 00:35:57,488
I had been in, but manyfriends that I witness who are
613
00:35:57,572 --> 00:36:00,825
supposedly monogamous, aren't.
614
00:36:00,908 --> 00:36:03,661
You know, and I just felt
like it would be better to
615
00:36:03,744 --> 00:36:06,247
be able to be honest about it.
616
00:36:07,206 --> 00:36:09,750
You know,I resist the term open relationship,
617
00:36:09,834 --> 00:36:13,754
because it looks to me like a Facebook announcement like there's an
618
00:36:13,838 --> 00:36:16,841
enormous breeze blowing
through your relationship.
619
00:36:17,884 --> 00:36:19,594
As a young man,I... it used to bother me.
620
00:36:19,677 --> 00:36:23,181
I came with all the fool's,romantic, heterosexual,
621
00:36:23,264 --> 00:36:25,433
it will be one person forever.
622
00:36:25,516 --> 00:36:27,935
And somewhere inside
of me, I knew that that
623
00:36:28,019 --> 00:36:30,021
was a tough thing to pull off.
624
00:36:30,104 --> 00:36:33,232
Some people do, and
I'm happy for them.
625
00:36:33,316 --> 00:36:35,276
I don't think there is one way
to be married, whether it be
626
00:36:35,359 --> 00:36:36,819
you're gay or straight.
627
00:36:38,237 --> 00:36:40,990
What we bothwanted was fidelity.
628
00:36:41,073 --> 00:36:45,453
The notion that this person
is with you no matter what.
629
00:36:45,536 --> 00:36:48,539
And that if you love that person enough,
you can give the freedom
630
00:36:48,623 --> 00:36:53,461
to let them explore a little on the side,
or sometimes with you.
631
00:36:53,544 --> 00:36:54,670
That's another aspect of it.
632
00:36:54,754 --> 00:36:55,963
It's very nice.
633
00:36:56,797 --> 00:37:01,302
So, I think we've accomplished somethingthat makes me feel more loved than ever.
634
00:37:01,385 --> 00:37:04,180
And I hope he feels
that way about it.
635
00:37:11,479 --> 00:37:15,358
I had know that I was attracted to men ever since I was 12 years old,
636
00:37:15,441 --> 00:37:18,653
but I didn't do anything
about it until I was about 25.
637
00:37:18,736 --> 00:37:21,197
So, I had a long, long
period there where I...
638
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:22,323
Gestation period.
639
00:37:22,406 --> 00:37:24,909
Gestation period where I had
640
00:37:24,992 --> 00:37:26,786
no sex with anyone really.
641
00:37:26,869 --> 00:37:28,955
I'm a... I'm what they
call a perfect Kinsey 6.
642
00:37:29,038 --> 00:37:32,416
I've never had sex with a woman,
but and I waited a long time
643
00:37:32,500 --> 00:37:34,043
before I had sex
with a man I was--
644
00:37:34,126 --> 00:37:35,628
A few
drag queens though.
645
00:37:37,213 --> 00:37:38,506
Never.
Never.
646
00:37:41,592 --> 00:37:44,136
I'd like to tell you about the first time I had sex.
647
00:37:44,220 --> 00:37:45,763
I hope yours was
better than mine was.
648
00:37:45,846 --> 00:37:47,348
Oh, my God.
649
00:37:47,431 --> 00:37:51,227
I didn't have sex with anybodyuntil I was about 25 years old.
650
00:37:51,310 --> 00:37:54,522
And I was living in Charleston,South Carolina, and I'm sure it
651
00:37:54,605 --> 00:38:01,320
was the last time I was ever ina dark park in all innocence.
652
00:38:01,404 --> 00:38:03,739
I had gone down there to siton a bench, and look at the
653
00:38:03,823 --> 00:38:07,368
moonlight on the water, andenjoy the scenery, and a man
654
00:38:07,451 --> 00:38:12,957
walked up to me and said,"Have you got the time?"
655
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:14,250
And I said, "No, I don't.
656
00:38:14,333 --> 00:38:15,543
I'm sorry."
657
00:38:15,626 --> 00:38:18,546
And he said, "Have
you got a light?"
658
00:38:19,130 --> 00:38:20,923
And I said, "No."
659
00:38:21,007 --> 00:38:22,883
Finally, I said,
"Listen, I don't think
660
00:38:22,967 --> 00:38:24,969
I'm what you're looking for."
661
00:38:25,052 --> 00:38:26,762
I knew what he was up to.
662
00:38:27,346 --> 00:38:30,766
And he apologized and
kind of scurried away.
663
00:38:30,850 --> 00:38:33,936
And... and I sat there on the
bench for a while and I thought
664
00:38:34,020 --> 00:38:36,147
what are you fucking up to?
665
00:38:36,230 --> 00:38:39,150
You're exactly what
he's looking for.
666
00:38:40,609 --> 00:38:43,821
I hurried back into
the park where this guy
667
00:38:43,904 --> 00:38:46,073
was hitting on another guy.
668
00:38:46,157 --> 00:38:48,868
I interrupted them
while they were...
669
00:38:48,951 --> 00:38:51,579
"I'm so sorry I was
so rude back there.
670
00:38:51,662 --> 00:38:52,705
Would you like to
come to my house?
671
00:38:52,788 --> 00:38:53,706
It's right over there.
672
00:38:53,789 --> 00:38:55,916
And like we could
have a drink."
673
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,503
So, I snatched this guy away from this completely dumbfounded
674
00:38:59,587 --> 00:39:03,507
man and we went back to my
little carriage house, and it
675
00:39:03,591 --> 00:39:05,926
took less than five minutes.
676
00:39:06,010 --> 00:39:10,306
I'm pretty sure I got a dick in
my mouth, and that he did, too.
677
00:39:12,266 --> 00:39:17,355
And I could just picture in that particular moment Peggy Lee in
678
00:39:17,438 --> 00:39:21,650
the corner of the
room singing the song that
679
00:39:21,734 --> 00:39:23,903
was so popular that summer.
680
00:39:26,113 --> 00:39:27,531
What was it?
681
00:39:27,615 --> 00:39:28,783
"Is that all there is?"
682
00:39:28,866 --> 00:39:30,618
Thank you, very much.
683
00:39:31,535 --> 00:39:33,579
It was 1969.
684
00:39:33,662 --> 00:39:35,247
That was thesummer of the moonshot.
685
00:39:35,331 --> 00:39:38,000
That was thesummer of Stonewall.
686
00:39:38,084 --> 00:39:40,836
Sort of appropriate, really,that I negotiated to lose my
687
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,130
virginity on the spotwhere the first shots
688
00:39:43,214 --> 00:39:45,257
of the Civil War were fired.
689
00:39:46,217 --> 00:39:48,761
But the next morning
something amazing happened.
690
00:39:48,844 --> 00:39:52,848
I realized I'd passed
this point of no return that
691
00:39:52,932 --> 00:39:55,935
I had dreaded my whole life.
692
00:39:56,018 --> 00:39:58,562
You know, so what if it wasn't
the best thing in the world?
693
00:39:58,646 --> 00:40:01,565
There might be other
people who came to that park.
694
00:40:01,649 --> 00:40:03,943
And maybe I could get it right.
695
00:40:04,026 --> 00:40:07,905
And it wasn't so much the death
of innocence as a kind of brand
696
00:40:07,988 --> 00:40:12,952
new, adolescence that made
me feel like a reborn person.
697
00:40:15,704 --> 00:40:17,581
Whatabout life in San Francisco?
698
00:40:17,665 --> 00:40:19,708
Does a straight
person need to be aware?
699
00:40:19,792 --> 00:40:23,045
What's happened in
San Francisco is that the 15 %
700
00:40:23,129 --> 00:40:27,883
or 10 % of the population that
is gay, is open about it.
701
00:40:27,967 --> 00:40:30,928
People have learned toaccept, learned to get over the
702
00:40:31,011 --> 00:40:34,515
stereotypes, learned to get over their prejudice,and it's a
703
00:40:34,598 --> 00:40:36,976
healthy atmospherethat's taking place.
704
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,531
I met
Armistead in the early '70s.
705
00:40:50,614 --> 00:40:54,368
He had that Southern
manner and he was so polite,
706
00:40:54,452 --> 00:40:56,287
and he was just funny.
707
00:40:56,370 --> 00:41:00,583
You know,
so you just felt as if he had the world in his hands.
708
00:41:00,666 --> 00:41:03,752
But he had not comeout at that time.
709
00:41:04,962 --> 00:41:08,257
I took him allover San Francisco.
710
00:41:08,340 --> 00:41:12,011
You know, it's been a
Wild West for so long.
711
00:41:13,429 --> 00:41:16,348
And you just would walk outthe door and you'd smell people
712
00:41:16,432 --> 00:41:20,269
smoking dope, and therewould be music everywhere.
713
00:41:23,647 --> 00:41:25,774
You just felt great.
714
00:41:25,858 --> 00:41:30,196
I mean I didn't always feel
great, because I overdid it a
715
00:41:30,279 --> 00:41:33,032
little bit, more than I
should have most of the time,
716
00:41:33,115 --> 00:41:36,160
but it was a wonderful time.
717
00:41:42,124 --> 00:41:47,296
I saw San Franciscoon my way to and from Vietnam.
718
00:41:47,379 --> 00:41:50,007
When I processed out of the Navy out on Treasure Island,I had a
719
00:41:50,090 --> 00:41:53,928
mix of feelings,because part of me wanted to stay in the Navy.
720
00:41:54,011 --> 00:41:54,929
I loved it.
721
00:41:55,012 --> 00:41:59,725
I loved the uniforms, andthe camaraderie, and the men.
722
00:41:59,808 --> 00:42:03,354
But I knew if I actually acted
on what I was feeling, that I
723
00:42:03,437 --> 00:42:05,189
would be in big trouble.
724
00:42:05,272 --> 00:42:08,609
And I remember looking over atthis white city there on the
725
00:42:08,692 --> 00:42:11,403
edge of the water and wondering if I could live there.
726
00:42:11,487 --> 00:42:14,990
And it wasn't until the
Associated Press offered me a
727
00:42:15,074 --> 00:42:17,034
gig in San Francisco,that I knew I
728
00:42:17,117 --> 00:42:19,203
had the opportunity to do that.
729
00:42:19,286 --> 00:42:20,538
So, I leapt at it.
730
00:42:20,996 --> 00:42:24,041
I remember telling a guy that I
had actually picked up in the
731
00:42:24,124 --> 00:42:27,169
park in Charleston that I
was moving to San Francisco,
732
00:42:27,253 --> 00:42:28,504
and he said, "Oh, my God.
733
00:42:28,587 --> 00:42:29,713
You'll love it there.
734
00:42:29,797 --> 00:42:32,591
They've got 50 gay bars."
735
00:42:32,675 --> 00:42:37,471
And I said, rather primly, I'm sure, "Oh,
I would never go into one of those."
736
00:42:38,305 --> 00:42:41,225
Of course,
I was in one of those on my first night in town.
737
00:42:41,308 --> 00:42:44,687
I went down to theRendezvous on Sutter Street.
738
00:42:44,770 --> 00:42:49,066
And there were guys in thereslow dancing to Streisand.
739
00:42:49,149 --> 00:42:50,734
I think it was "People."
740
00:42:53,362 --> 00:42:55,364
It was a horrifyingsight to me.
741
00:42:56,740 --> 00:43:02,705
My first good friend intown was a red-headed woman.
742
00:43:02,788 --> 00:43:05,332
And I decided I was going totell her that I was gay because
743
00:43:05,416 --> 00:43:07,918
I wanted a new life and Ididn't see any reason to be
744
00:43:08,002 --> 00:43:10,379
lying now that I was in town.
745
00:43:10,462 --> 00:43:12,840
And so I went over to herhouse, and I was drunk by
746
00:43:12,923 --> 00:43:15,426
that time from aboutthree mai tais
747
00:43:16,260 --> 00:43:18,304
and said,
"I have something to tell you."
748
00:43:18,387 --> 00:43:21,640
And I hemmed, and hawed,
and she came over and... and... and sort
749
00:43:21,724 --> 00:43:24,768
of took my hands in hers and looked up at me and said, "What?
750
00:43:24,852 --> 00:43:25,686
What is it?"
751
00:43:25,769 --> 00:43:28,105
And I said, "I'm homosexual."
752
00:43:28,188 --> 00:43:31,025
And she looked at me for
a moment and then said...
753
00:43:31,108 --> 00:43:33,277
"Oh, big fucking deal.
754
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:34,820
We... you know we love you.
755
00:43:34,903 --> 00:43:36,196
Who cares?
756
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,366
And half of San
Francisco is gay."
757
00:43:40,701 --> 00:43:43,037
Sophisticated straight people in San Francisco
758
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:47,625
were more comfortable withmy sexuality than I was.
759
00:43:49,835 --> 00:43:52,129
Because I was still proudlyhanging the picture of me
760
00:43:52,212 --> 00:43:55,883
shaking hands with RichardNixon, and I would pick up guys
761
00:43:55,966 --> 00:43:59,762
down on Polk Street and bring them back to the house,and they
762
00:43:59,845 --> 00:44:03,515
would see the picture of me with Nixon,
and they would, you know
763
00:44:03,599 --> 00:44:08,562
look a little bit disgusted
and horrified as if they'd just
764
00:44:08,646 --> 00:44:12,941
found out they were... had
gone home with Jeffrey Dahmer.
765
00:44:13,025 --> 00:44:18,280
It was... it... it... and
I... and I took that on.
766
00:44:19,073 --> 00:44:21,950
I mean I think I... you know,
I think I'm still, part of me,
767
00:44:22,242 --> 00:44:24,953
the... my whole life I've
been trying to please people,
768
00:44:25,037 --> 00:44:28,207
and... and then I got here
and I thought nobody is happy
769
00:44:28,290 --> 00:44:30,709
with my life the way it was.
770
00:44:31,543 --> 00:44:33,420
Nobody is happy with it.
771
00:44:35,673 --> 00:44:37,675
I was the one that changed.
772
00:44:37,758 --> 00:44:39,385
I came out.
773
00:44:39,468 --> 00:44:45,015
I finally became myself as aperson and my heart opened up.
774
00:44:46,225 --> 00:44:50,687
The sexual aspect of it,
I can't minimize that.
775
00:44:50,771 --> 00:44:53,774
There was just something amazing about,you know, I could... I would
776
00:44:53,857 --> 00:44:57,194
go to the baths, and I wouldhave sex, and the very process
777
00:44:57,277 --> 00:45:01,740
of you know lying in someone'sarms and cuddling, it opened my
778
00:45:01,824 --> 00:45:04,701
heart to such an extent,that I started just taking the
779
00:45:04,785 --> 00:45:07,413
world in in a different way.
780
00:45:08,038 --> 00:45:10,916
Some of those guys that I'dlie with were of another color,
781
00:45:10,999 --> 00:45:12,459
another race.
782
00:45:12,543 --> 00:45:16,922
You know, everything I'd everbeen taught, was falling away,
783
00:45:17,005 --> 00:45:20,801
and I just realized what it wasto be with another human being,
784
00:45:20,884 --> 00:45:24,805
what human feelings were.
785
00:45:26,181 --> 00:45:30,727
And that made me examine all the little prejudices that I'd been
786
00:45:30,811 --> 00:45:33,105
given when I was growing up.
787
00:45:33,188 --> 00:45:34,648
It wasn't just racist stuff.
788
00:45:34,731 --> 00:45:37,109
It was my family telling methat I was better than anybody
789
00:45:37,192 --> 00:45:40,320
because it was in mybloodline, you know.
790
00:45:40,404 --> 00:45:42,030
This nonsense.
791
00:45:42,531 --> 00:45:45,200
And it made me into a writer.
792
00:45:45,284 --> 00:45:47,327
That's what it did,
among other things.
793
00:45:47,411 --> 00:45:49,204
It made me into a writer.
794
00:45:59,506 --> 00:46:03,260
My grandmother and I were once,
when I was like 14 years old,
795
00:46:03,343 --> 00:46:06,722
were walking to a garden party
in Raleigh, and there was a
796
00:46:06,805 --> 00:46:11,226
woman ahead of us that was all
just femmed out to the nines.
797
00:46:11,310 --> 00:46:13,187
Pink, and
perfumed, and powdered,
798
00:46:13,270 --> 00:46:15,022
and little spike heels, and...
799
00:46:15,105 --> 00:46:18,358
And my grandmother turned to
me with this sort of sly little
800
00:46:18,442 --> 00:46:22,821
smile on her face and said,
"Any women who is all woman, or any
801
00:46:22,905 --> 00:46:26,867
man who is all man,
is a complete monster
802
00:46:26,950 --> 00:46:29,077
unfit for human company."
803
00:46:32,414 --> 00:46:36,251
And that's always been my rule for writing characters,
you know.
804
00:46:36,335 --> 00:46:38,545
We're all a mix
of these things.
805
00:46:38,629 --> 00:46:41,965
I try to find the part of us
that isn't black, or white, or
806
00:46:42,049 --> 00:46:47,763
male, or female,
or any of those things but human, the part...
807
00:46:47,846 --> 00:46:49,431
the part that comes
from the heart.
808
00:46:49,515 --> 00:46:52,768
And that is simply the
function of the writer.
809
00:46:52,851 --> 00:46:56,939
In my novel Maybe the Moon,
it's told from the viewpoint of a
810
00:46:57,022 --> 00:47:03,946
heterosexual, Jewish, dwarf
actress working in Hollywood.
811
00:47:04,655 --> 00:47:06,073
Okay.
812
00:47:06,782 --> 00:47:09,451
"When you're my size and not
being tormented by elevator
813
00:47:09,535 --> 00:47:12,871
buttons, water fountains
and ATMs, you spend your life
814
00:47:12,955 --> 00:47:16,708
accommodating the sensibilities of 'normal people'..."
815
00:47:25,551 --> 00:47:28,887
"You do it if you want to
belong to the human race."
816
00:47:29,888 --> 00:47:36,019
Maybe the Moon is a novel abouta friendship between a gay man
817
00:47:36,103 --> 00:47:38,939
and a woman who'sa little person.
818
00:47:39,022 --> 00:47:41,775
The little person Armistead wasfriends with that the book is
819
00:47:41,858 --> 00:47:45,153
inspired by was thewoman inside the E.T. costume.
820
00:47:48,365 --> 00:47:53,453
What I remember about it was
just how much I understood and
821
00:47:53,537 --> 00:47:57,124
related to the
little woman's voice.
822
00:47:57,207 --> 00:48:00,419
She wasn't a victim
and I really loved that.
823
00:48:00,502 --> 00:48:04,089
She was dignified, and smart,
and just had a normal life, and
824
00:48:04,172 --> 00:48:07,968
there wasn't anything
mysterious, or kooky, or
825
00:48:08,051 --> 00:48:10,470
fantastical, you know.
826
00:48:11,305 --> 00:48:15,392
I was the only little person inmy entire family, in my entire
827
00:48:15,475 --> 00:48:19,605
surrounding and I was always the black sheep in that sense, and
828
00:48:19,688 --> 00:48:21,607
it was very difficult for me.
829
00:48:21,690 --> 00:48:23,734
And it was very isolating.
830
00:48:24,359 --> 00:48:29,740
So, I couldn't wrap my headaround how this normal size,
831
00:48:29,823 --> 00:48:33,619
white, gay man, how could he
possibly walk in my shoes?
832
00:48:33,702 --> 00:48:37,164
I'm like a 3'10," you
know, gimpy Mexican.
833
00:48:37,873 --> 00:48:41,793
But I just can't help believinghe can relate to just being
834
00:48:41,877 --> 00:48:44,296
different and not by choice.
835
00:48:45,756 --> 00:48:48,175
By the end of the
book, my self-worth went
836
00:48:48,258 --> 00:48:50,510
from like here to here.
837
00:48:50,594 --> 00:48:53,597
It was... it... it was
life changing, really.
838
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:54,848
It was just nice.
839
00:48:54,931 --> 00:48:57,267
It was the first time
in my life that I felt
840
00:48:57,351 --> 00:48:59,519
someone out there understands.
841
00:49:07,653 --> 00:49:11,948
In 1976 I had just
moved to San Francisco and it
842
00:49:12,032 --> 00:49:16,411
seems as though Tales of theCity started the week that we
843
00:49:16,495 --> 00:49:20,082
moved there, and was our guide to San Francisco,
and everything
844
00:49:20,165 --> 00:49:23,210
that was going on and
what we were discovering.
845
00:49:26,046 --> 00:49:29,966
If you make yourlist of the major characters
846
00:49:30,050 --> 00:49:32,886
beginning with AnnMadrigal, and going down,
847
00:49:32,969 --> 00:49:36,223
you will miss one of them.
848
00:49:36,306 --> 00:49:38,517
And that character
is San Francisco.
849
00:49:48,902 --> 00:49:52,030
We are here at
Macondray Lane, which was the
850
00:49:52,114 --> 00:49:54,032
inspiration for Barbary Lane.
851
00:49:54,116 --> 00:49:57,661
Actually, the steps were the...
were the inspiration to me
852
00:49:57,744 --> 00:50:00,288
because when I was living in the neighborhood,
I saw them one day
853
00:50:00,372 --> 00:50:02,749
and wondered what was up there.
854
00:50:06,461 --> 00:50:10,382
I was just fascinated by theidea of this little city street
855
00:50:10,465 --> 00:50:12,050
and I just mademy way up the steps
856
00:50:12,134 --> 00:50:14,177
into this little wonderland.
857
00:50:19,307 --> 00:50:21,017
It was sort of acombination of an English
858
00:50:21,101 --> 00:50:25,188
village storyand an urban tale.
859
00:50:32,612 --> 00:50:34,614
Oh, there's one over there.
860
00:50:39,703 --> 00:50:43,248
I still think this is the most special place on earth,
so to be
861
00:50:43,331 --> 00:50:46,960
associated with it, is
just... it's a great joy.
862
00:50:55,552 --> 00:50:58,346
I started writing Tales
in 1976.
863
00:50:58,430 --> 00:51:01,850
So, I had two full years
of writing five days a week,
864
00:51:01,933 --> 00:51:04,352
800 words a day.
865
00:51:04,436 --> 00:51:08,190
It was agonizing but
kind of exhilarating, too.
866
00:51:10,108 --> 00:51:13,153
I was contacted by an editor in New York and he asked me to send
867
00:51:13,236 --> 00:51:16,114
him Xeroxed copies of thecolumns, because he thought
868
00:51:16,198 --> 00:51:17,949
there was a novel there.
869
00:51:19,534 --> 00:51:23,371
The miniseriesdidn't happen until 1993.
870
00:51:29,419 --> 00:51:31,713
I thinkeveryone quite wrongly thought
871
00:51:31,797 --> 00:51:33,673
that she wasn't very smart.
872
00:51:35,008 --> 00:51:36,676
And really what she
was is she was a new
873
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,012
person in a strange land.
874
00:51:39,095 --> 00:51:43,934
And that anybody can relate to.
875
00:51:44,017 --> 00:51:45,769
She arrived thereand just didn't know
876
00:51:45,852 --> 00:51:47,646
what any of the rules were.
877
00:51:47,729 --> 00:51:50,148
So, she wasawkward, and overwhelmed,
878
00:51:50,232 --> 00:51:53,860
and excited, but not dumb.
879
00:51:55,612 --> 00:51:56,488
Hello?
880
00:51:57,072 --> 00:51:58,990
And that's fun to play.
881
00:51:59,074 --> 00:51:59,908
Hello?
882
00:52:01,159 --> 00:52:02,744
Hello.
883
00:52:03,703 --> 00:52:08,750
I'm Mrs. Madrigal,
as in medieval.
884
00:52:08,834 --> 00:52:11,461
The researchon Anna Madrigal was really
885
00:52:11,545 --> 00:52:16,883
interesting, because I don't
know, shit all anything here.
886
00:52:18,134 --> 00:52:19,302
And I...
887
00:52:19,386 --> 00:52:22,472
Alan Poul was the producer,
and I called him up and I said,
888
00:52:22,556 --> 00:52:26,518
"I've got to talk to atransgendered individual."
889
00:52:26,601 --> 00:52:31,982
So, he found someone and invited them to my apartment,
and I open
890
00:52:32,065 --> 00:52:37,863
the door and there's this guy
6'3" - somebody who had been a
891
00:52:37,946 --> 00:52:42,951
guy - 6'3",
who was now a woman.
892
00:52:43,034 --> 00:52:48,790
But the initial look was much more masculine, you...
you know.
893
00:52:48,874 --> 00:52:50,542
And his hands were
like basketball.
894
00:52:50,625 --> 00:52:52,085
People who play basketball.
895
00:52:52,168 --> 00:52:58,258
I mean, it was like... but the
voice was soft, and sweet, and
896
00:52:58,341 --> 00:53:02,679
dear, and it was like, okay.
897
00:53:02,762 --> 00:53:06,057
She looked at me and Isaid, "Tell me, what was it
898
00:53:06,141 --> 00:53:09,227
that you wanted so much?"
899
00:53:09,728 --> 00:53:16,276
And what this woman said to me was,
"All my life, I yearned for
900
00:53:16,359 --> 00:53:18,904
the friendship of women."
901
00:53:18,987 --> 00:53:21,406
Now, I didn't know what she
was going to say, but that one
902
00:53:21,489 --> 00:53:24,618
really... I mean I,
even now, it's like...
903
00:53:25,452 --> 00:53:27,787
I thought...
I don't know what...
904
00:53:27,871 --> 00:53:29,998
I expected something sexual.
905
00:53:31,333 --> 00:53:37,547
I didn't expect
something so deeply
906
00:53:39,549 --> 00:53:43,178
human, something that was
907
00:53:43,261 --> 00:53:47,015
about people's
feelings, and people's....
908
00:53:47,098 --> 00:53:49,976
it shows you how stupid was.
909
00:53:52,771 --> 00:53:55,941
Now, I know what it is towant the friendship of women.
910
00:53:57,817 --> 00:54:02,364
And I want her to be my friend.
911
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,283
That's what I had learned.
912
00:54:07,994 --> 00:54:09,371
And so you see the old dame
913
00:54:09,454 --> 00:54:11,289
does have a past after all.
914
00:54:11,373 --> 00:54:13,625
Oh, I'm
prying, aren't I?
915
00:54:13,708 --> 00:54:17,295
I hope
it means we're friends.
916
00:54:29,140 --> 00:54:32,227
Tales of the City broke the kiss barrier,which is
917
00:54:32,310 --> 00:54:34,270
funny, because itwas a big barrier.
918
00:54:35,105 --> 00:54:41,653
I mean, you forget that man-on-man kissing,
which is now
919
00:54:42,737 --> 00:54:45,532
regularly featured on
every Shondra Rhimes show,
920
00:54:45,615 --> 00:54:49,869
in a much more explicit
way than it ever was with...
921
00:54:49,953 --> 00:54:53,206
with Mouse and
John, was a big taboo.
922
00:54:54,207 --> 00:54:59,754
Even showing two men in bedtogether with the implication
923
00:54:59,838 --> 00:55:02,007
that they had had sex in thatbed, was a really difficult
924
00:55:02,090 --> 00:55:03,717
thing to do on television.
925
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:05,051
You cheated.
926
00:55:05,135 --> 00:55:07,387
The show wasalso a gigantic success.
927
00:55:07,470 --> 00:55:11,766
In many PBS markets,
it was the highest rated
928
00:55:11,850 --> 00:55:13,560
drama series they've ever had.
929
00:55:13,643 --> 00:55:18,356
In other markets, it was second
only to Upstairs Downstairs.
930
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:21,192
And in San Francisco,we beat the networks,
931
00:55:21,276 --> 00:55:24,195
which doesn't happen with PBS.
932
00:55:24,279 --> 00:55:27,532
Coming off the heels of the great success of Tales of the City,
933
00:55:27,615 --> 00:55:30,577
they went intopledge drive mode.
934
00:55:30,660 --> 00:55:32,704
Give us money so that wecan continue to bring you
935
00:55:32,787 --> 00:55:34,456
groundbreaking,wonderful programming like
936
00:55:34,539 --> 00:55:36,082
Tales of the city.
937
00:55:37,083 --> 00:55:42,672
"Something from my garden
as a welcome from us all,
938
00:55:42,756 --> 00:55:44,924
Anna Madrigal."
939
00:55:53,224 --> 00:55:54,059
Hi, everybody.
940
00:55:54,142 --> 00:55:54,976
I'm Mary Hart.
941
00:55:55,060 --> 00:55:56,227
And I'm John Tesh.
942
00:55:56,311 --> 00:55:59,064
Nude scenes, sexyromance, graphic language,
943
00:55:59,147 --> 00:56:01,024
gay lovers, narcotics.
944
00:56:01,107 --> 00:56:02,942
We are talkingX-rated movie, right?
945
00:56:03,318 --> 00:56:04,152
No.
946
00:56:04,235 --> 00:56:07,489
It's a miniseries right in Mr.Roger's Neighborhood on PBS.
947
00:56:08,990 --> 00:56:11,743
There was alreadya huge amount of momentum
948
00:56:11,826 --> 00:56:15,830
certainly within the Republican Party that American public funds
949
00:56:15,914 --> 00:56:19,793
should not be spent on material
that is controversial, should
950
00:56:19,876 --> 00:56:22,212
not be spent on material that
some people might object to,
951
00:56:22,295 --> 00:56:24,005
should not be spent
on material that can't
952
00:56:24,089 --> 00:56:25,840
survive in the marketplace.
953
00:56:25,924 --> 00:56:27,926
The question
is whether or tax dollars,
954
00:56:28,009 --> 00:56:31,930
tax payers are going to be forced to help pay for one homosexual to
955
00:56:32,013 --> 00:56:34,474
have anal intercourse
with another homosexual and
956
00:56:34,557 --> 00:56:36,351
to put that into a movie.
957
00:56:36,434 --> 00:56:39,020
Donald Wildmon and
the American Family Association
958
00:56:39,104 --> 00:56:43,233
very famously put together this little 12-minute trailer of
959
00:56:43,316 --> 00:56:46,486
highlights from
Tales of the City.
960
00:56:48,154 --> 00:56:50,698
There was men kissing.
961
00:56:51,825 --> 00:56:54,536
They itemized how many
times somebody was naked.
962
00:56:55,829 --> 00:56:58,331
There was
an underwear contest.
963
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,045
I remember they went and they
counted every swear word.
964
00:57:04,129 --> 00:57:06,506
Beats the shit
out of Tarot cards.
965
00:57:06,589 --> 00:57:08,800
I forgot one of
the most important ones, drugs.
966
00:57:13,221 --> 00:57:14,681
I don't know how many times
they must have had to
967
00:57:14,764 --> 00:57:18,268
watch the thing in order to
get all that information.
968
00:57:19,477 --> 00:57:22,605
They delivered itto every member of Congress.
969
00:57:22,689 --> 00:57:25,984
And the idea that anybody in
the U.S. Congress or anywhere
970
00:57:26,067 --> 00:57:27,444
else could watch it
with a straight face,
971
00:57:27,527 --> 00:57:28,695
is kind of astonishing.
972
00:57:31,114 --> 00:57:33,408
And the PBS lowered the boom.
973
00:57:34,409 --> 00:57:36,035
The shit hit the fan.
974
00:57:36,119 --> 00:57:39,330
It was... it was amazing.
975
00:57:39,414 --> 00:57:43,460
What the hell is
going on when the taxpayers are
976
00:57:43,543 --> 00:57:45,753
required to fund
such garbage as that?
977
00:57:46,379 --> 00:57:50,467
This was the time
when Jesse Helms was talking
978
00:57:50,550 --> 00:57:55,054
about defunding
both the NEA and PBS.
979
00:57:55,138 --> 00:58:00,059
So, I was in the thick of things with... with...
with my old boss.
980
00:58:01,227 --> 00:58:05,023
All the genuine
commitments that PBS had given
981
00:58:05,106 --> 00:58:10,528
to producing the second series,
were immediately reversed.
982
00:58:11,696 --> 00:58:13,990
We've got to understand
that all of us become
983
00:58:14,073 --> 00:58:18,620
a part of what we condone.
984
00:58:19,954 --> 00:58:22,540
I still am disappointed
that that happened,
985
00:58:23,791 --> 00:58:25,668
because I think they
would have made them all.
986
00:58:27,337 --> 00:58:29,464
I think they would have
done the whole series.
987
00:58:30,673 --> 00:58:33,009
And... and they didn't.
988
00:58:35,970 --> 00:58:38,348
Is everything
alright, Mrs. Madrigal?
989
00:58:43,895 --> 00:58:48,858
Naïve as it may sound,
we felt we had made a
990
00:58:48,942 --> 00:58:54,364
beautiful, loving show about
family and about everybody's
991
00:58:54,447 --> 00:58:56,115
right to search for love.
992
00:58:56,199 --> 00:58:58,701
And there wasnothing salacious in it.
993
00:58:58,785 --> 00:59:02,997
So, the idea that this wasso incendiary is difficult to
994
00:59:03,081 --> 00:59:06,042
grasp, because when you look
at now, you see it for...
995
00:59:06,125 --> 00:59:09,045
for what...
for what it was and for what it was always intended to be,
996
00:59:09,128 --> 00:59:11,047
which is a valentine.
997
00:59:17,011 --> 00:59:19,055
It's a different
world we're living in now.
998
00:59:19,138 --> 00:59:20,265
Oh, my God.
999
00:59:20,348 --> 00:59:23,726
And on network
television, I get surprised.
1000
00:59:24,018 --> 00:59:27,772
I... you know, I don't want to
come off, you know... you know,
1001
00:59:28,731 --> 00:59:34,362
all, you know, uptight, but
the line between actor
1002
00:59:34,445 --> 00:59:38,116
and sex worker is a very
fuzzy one today.
1003
00:59:38,199 --> 00:59:40,243
It really is.
1004
00:59:42,870 --> 00:59:45,081
Can I tell you something?
1005
00:59:45,456 --> 00:59:47,125
Of course.
1006
00:59:47,208 --> 00:59:49,919
I think it might
be cool with me if you...
1007
00:59:52,922 --> 00:59:54,674
You want me to fuck you?
1008
00:59:55,675 --> 00:59:56,634
Yeah.
1009
00:59:58,052 --> 01:00:01,347
I met Armistead while we were shooting Looking.
1010
01:00:01,639 --> 01:00:03,808
I'd heard about thelegend of Tales of the City.
1011
01:00:03,891 --> 01:00:07,895
Just as like a young,
gay man wanting to... wanting to sort of
1012
01:00:07,979 --> 01:00:11,983
like dive in to this world
that I'd heard about before,
1013
01:00:12,066 --> 01:00:16,446
because I was in the closet from like 19 to 23 with a boyfriend
1014
01:00:16,529 --> 01:00:18,239
who was my roommate.
1015
01:00:18,823 --> 01:00:23,536
And in the moment
of doing it, I...
1016
01:00:24,537 --> 01:00:27,999
I felt... fine.
1017
01:00:28,082 --> 01:00:30,043
It... everything was
compartmentalized
1018
01:00:30,126 --> 01:00:32,837
and I had it all figured out.
1019
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,465
I was doing a show on Broadway called Spring Awakening,
where I
1020
01:00:35,548 --> 01:00:38,509
was playing a straight,romantic male lead.
1021
01:00:38,593 --> 01:00:42,096
And I never lied and said that I was straight,but I always kind
1022
01:00:42,180 --> 01:00:44,682
of like dodged the bullet.
1023
01:00:45,266 --> 01:00:48,811
And it really wasn't until I
came out, that I understood how
1024
01:00:48,895 --> 01:00:51,731
suffocated I was when
I was in the closet.
1025
01:00:51,814 --> 01:00:54,734
It's like once you're out,
you're like, oh, my God,
1026
01:00:54,817 --> 01:00:56,319
I can't beli...
1027
01:00:56,402 --> 01:01:00,114
It's like taking a... like a
deep breath for the first time
1028
01:01:00,198 --> 01:01:01,699
and you didn't
realize that you were ho...
1029
01:01:01,783 --> 01:01:03,242
Well, for me, I didn't
realize that I was holding
1030
01:01:03,326 --> 01:01:04,952
my breath all that time.
1031
01:01:07,538 --> 01:01:10,291
Actor Rock Hudson is in a hospital in Paris this morning.
1032
01:01:10,375 --> 01:01:12,502
One report is that
he has liver cancer.
1033
01:01:12,585 --> 01:01:13,920
Another that he has AIDS.
1034
01:01:14,003 --> 01:01:15,838
But none of this
has been confirmed.
1035
01:01:15,922 --> 01:01:18,591
He was brought to the American Hospital's emergency room Sunday
1036
01:01:18,675 --> 01:01:21,094
night, complaininghe was exhausted.
1037
01:01:21,177 --> 01:01:23,262
This morning he metwith his secretary.
1038
01:01:23,346 --> 01:01:25,682
Nothing.
He looks wonderful, I must say.
1039
01:01:26,474 --> 01:01:29,477
Because I was nolonger in contact with Rock,
1040
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:32,730
I was as confounded as anybodyelse when I heard he had AIDS.
1041
01:01:32,814 --> 01:01:36,192
All my friends were publicabout it when they got sick.
1042
01:01:36,859 --> 01:01:41,406
When he showed upon Doris Day'spet show looking really bad,
1043
01:01:41,489 --> 01:01:43,408
there was all that speculation.
1044
01:01:43,491 --> 01:01:46,536
And the people around him
were still saying,
1045
01:01:46,619 --> 01:01:49,831
"Oh, he has anorexia, he's been
on a watermelon diet."
1046
01:01:49,914 --> 01:01:55,586
Just the worst kind of lying
and obfuscation that was...
1047
01:01:55,670 --> 01:01:57,505
it was way too late for it.
1048
01:01:57,588 --> 01:01:59,132
Anybody who'd
been through the whole
1049
01:01:59,215 --> 01:02:01,008
process of AIDS, knew it was.
1050
01:02:01,676 --> 01:02:05,304
Randy Shiltz, the first openlygay reporter and The Chronicle
1051
01:02:05,388 --> 01:02:07,807
and a friend ofmine called up and said,
1052
01:02:07,890 --> 01:02:09,559
"Are you willing totalk about Rock?"
1053
01:02:09,642 --> 01:02:11,728
So, I said, "Yes, ofcourse, he was gay.
1054
01:02:11,811 --> 01:02:13,980
Everybody in Hollywood knew it.
1055
01:02:14,063 --> 01:02:16,441
This should not be a scandal."
1056
01:02:16,524 --> 01:02:19,610
So, I talked about it publicly.
1057
01:02:20,361 --> 01:02:22,488
I was the first personto do it.
1058
01:02:23,531 --> 01:02:26,284
Meaning I...
officially, I outed him.
1059
01:02:27,827 --> 01:02:31,038
The guy that had introduced meto Rock called me up sobbing at
1060
01:02:31,122 --> 01:02:34,375
night and said, "How could youdo that to that beautiful man?"
1061
01:02:34,459 --> 01:02:38,379
A political columnist in the...in the local gay paper said,
1062
01:02:38,463 --> 01:02:41,257
"How can you callyourself a friend and do that?"
1063
01:02:42,091 --> 01:02:45,178
You were supposed to keep thesecret, and I knew that the
1064
01:02:45,261 --> 01:02:47,638
secret was whatwas poisoning us.
1065
01:02:48,264 --> 01:02:51,684
Sometimes the truth just has tobe told and there are systems
1066
01:02:51,768 --> 01:02:54,103
that have enslaved us all.
1067
01:02:54,187 --> 01:02:56,856
And the biggest
one is the closet.
1068
01:02:58,608 --> 01:03:03,237
Armistead's come onthe side of outing many people.
1069
01:03:04,071 --> 01:03:07,909
People who said it's my personal life,and I don't think it
1070
01:03:07,992 --> 01:03:12,455
enters into my work,and he thinks it's important, yes, that
1071
01:03:12,538 --> 01:03:14,582
they need to acknowledge that.
1072
01:03:17,168 --> 01:03:21,714
His belief is that when you do not talk about that,
and you are
1073
01:03:21,798 --> 01:03:26,469
part of a community, a cultural
group that is stigmatized by
1074
01:03:26,552 --> 01:03:30,932
people being silent, you have a
responsibility, if you belong,
1075
01:03:31,015 --> 01:03:33,226
to acknowledge you belong.
1076
01:03:34,268 --> 01:03:38,189
Especially with somebody likeRock Hudson whose status in
1077
01:03:38,272 --> 01:03:43,653
Hollywood had so much influenceon how people perceived who was
1078
01:03:43,778 --> 01:03:45,738
appropriate as a movie star.
1079
01:03:46,322 --> 01:03:50,326
So, yes, he was, in
Armistead's mind, the person
1080
01:03:50,409 --> 01:03:53,371
who really had to come out.
1081
01:03:54,747 --> 01:03:56,499
I don't agree with that.
1082
01:03:56,582 --> 01:04:00,670
I will do that if I findout that someone has been
1083
01:04:00,753 --> 01:04:04,882
homophobic, and
acting homophobically,
1084
01:04:04,966 --> 01:04:07,552
and speaking and
writing homophobically,
1085
01:04:07,635 --> 01:04:11,347
and they're closed,
phht, I'll fucking out them.
1086
01:04:11,430 --> 01:04:12,515
Hell, yeah.
1087
01:04:12,598 --> 01:04:15,101
But for a person
just to go on... No.
1088
01:04:15,184 --> 01:04:16,060
No.
1089
01:04:16,143 --> 01:04:16,978
No, no.
1090
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:22,024
Why on earth would you saysomething about the person?
1091
01:04:26,863 --> 01:04:29,740
Armistead's response, I...
I supported
1092
01:04:29,824 --> 01:04:35,580
because if people are going to
be gay to their friends and to
1093
01:04:35,663 --> 01:04:39,500
some strangers, is it then the
responsibility of those friends
1094
01:04:39,584 --> 01:04:41,544
and strangers to
lie on their behalf?
1095
01:04:44,505 --> 01:04:46,716
I should tell youabout a moment in my life
1096
01:04:46,799 --> 01:04:49,093
that Armistead participated in.
1097
01:04:49,176 --> 01:04:52,930
It would be, I suppose,the mid to late '80s.
1098
01:04:53,014 --> 01:04:56,434
I was doing a solo show in San Francisco, and...and met up with
1099
01:04:56,517 --> 01:05:00,313
Armistead and hispartner at the time, Terry.
1100
01:05:00,396 --> 01:05:02,523
And I said, notentirely out of the blue,
1101
01:05:02,607 --> 01:05:03,983
"Do you think Ishould come out?"
1102
01:05:04,650 --> 01:05:07,862
And he and Terry looked at each
other, and smiled, and... and
1103
01:05:07,945 --> 01:05:12,658
nodded vigorously, and I... I
think at that point,
1104
01:05:15,328 --> 01:05:19,165
it was a time when very few people in public life were...
were out.
1105
01:05:21,876 --> 01:05:24,378
And his first reaction was,
"Well, you'll feel better about
1106
01:05:24,462 --> 01:05:25,963
yourself if you come out."
1107
01:05:26,047 --> 01:05:27,673
Which was true.
1108
01:05:28,466 --> 01:05:30,176
"And it will be very good
for a lot of other people who
1109
01:05:30,259 --> 01:05:32,762
don't feel able to come
out to... to see someone
1110
01:05:32,845 --> 01:05:35,222
in public life doing it."
1111
01:05:35,306 --> 01:05:38,059
And I think that was
the appeal to him.
1112
01:05:38,809 --> 01:05:42,772
And it was just a fewmonths later that I came out.
1113
01:05:43,064 --> 01:05:45,608
I don't think I would havedone with the assurance, and
1114
01:05:45,691 --> 01:05:50,988
confidence, and need perhaps,even, unless I'd had that
1115
01:05:51,072 --> 01:05:56,577
crucial evening with Armistead
and Terry in San Francisco.
1116
01:05:56,661 --> 01:05:59,789
So, I think of
Ter... Terry and Armistead
1117
01:05:59,872 --> 01:06:02,333
as my godfathers, really.
1118
01:06:02,416 --> 01:06:04,126
Changed my life for the better.
1119
01:06:23,062 --> 01:06:26,440
I met Armistead, I think I was
1120
01:06:26,524 --> 01:06:30,778
probably about seven years old.
1121
01:06:30,861 --> 01:06:32,780
And I can't... I can't
remember if we had met or not.
1122
01:06:32,863 --> 01:06:35,032
I just remember seeing him.
1123
01:06:35,116 --> 01:06:38,828
He had done a signing at my family's bookstore,which was on
1124
01:06:38,911 --> 01:06:41,622
Polk and California, whichwas called Paperback Traffic.
1125
01:06:42,456 --> 01:06:46,669
The bookstore also was very gay,and so it was the perfect place
1126
01:06:46,752 --> 01:06:50,089
for a signing of
Tales of the City.
1127
01:06:50,172 --> 01:06:54,510
Just a very, very big deal that he was there,
because Tales of the City
1128
01:06:54,593 --> 01:06:57,430
really is all
about that neighborhood.
1129
01:06:58,556 --> 01:07:02,059
It was a pretty excitingtime just in San Francisco,
1130
01:07:02,143 --> 01:07:05,396
because this was before AIDS.
1131
01:07:07,398 --> 01:07:10,192
If this thing that gay men are getting in the States,
1132
01:07:10,276 --> 01:07:12,737
it's a severeimmune deficiency.
1133
01:07:16,991 --> 01:07:19,827
When I think about
AIDS, it's really like the...
1134
01:07:19,910 --> 01:07:22,079
my whole world disappeared.
1135
01:07:22,163 --> 01:07:23,789
My family lost their business.
1136
01:07:23,873 --> 01:07:26,834
They... they couldn't... they
couldn't keep it open, because
1137
01:07:26,917 --> 01:07:29,128
there was no customers,
because everybody died.
1138
01:07:29,211 --> 01:07:32,131
The... all the employees,you know, a lot of them are gone,
1139
01:07:32,214 --> 01:07:38,721
and it's really... it's hard to
separate what happened in...
1140
01:07:38,804 --> 01:07:41,682
in my life from what
happened in the books.
1141
01:07:48,939 --> 01:07:53,235
I had had so many valiant friends who had died of AIDS,
1142
01:07:53,319 --> 01:07:56,822
people who were openly
gay, who were talking about
1143
01:07:56,906 --> 01:08:03,871
their illness in the face of the most extraordinary... mistreatment.
1144
01:08:05,539 --> 01:08:08,292
And their parents were
throwing them out, you know.
1145
01:08:08,375 --> 01:08:11,295
They were dying and their
parents were rejecting them.
1146
01:08:12,588 --> 01:08:16,383
John Fielding was the firstcharacter in fiction anywhere
1147
01:08:16,466 --> 01:08:17,968
who had died of AIDS.
1148
01:08:18,761 --> 01:08:21,555
It was the only way I could
cope with it to... to take my
1149
01:08:21,639 --> 01:08:24,265
own... the pain I was feeling
about the death of my friends
1150
01:08:24,350 --> 01:08:26,018
and make other people feel it.
1151
01:08:27,060 --> 01:08:28,020
Uh-oh.
1152
01:08:29,688 --> 01:08:32,066
You have a hicky.
1153
01:08:33,317 --> 01:08:34,609
Where?
1154
01:08:34,693 --> 01:08:36,362
Right here on your neck.
1155
01:08:36,444 --> 01:08:39,615
There was a huge
outcry, and a lot of gay people
1156
01:08:39,698 --> 01:08:43,160
wrote me and said, "How dare
you spoil our light morning
1157
01:08:43,243 --> 01:08:46,747
entertainment with
your political agenda?"
1158
01:08:46,831 --> 01:08:48,749
They didn't get it.
1159
01:08:49,625 --> 01:08:52,545
It would be impossible to write
about San Francisco
1160
01:08:52,627 --> 01:08:56,506
in that period
and not bring it up.
1161
01:08:56,590 --> 01:09:01,845
It would be kind of insulting in a way to all of the people who
1162
01:09:01,929 --> 01:09:05,140
were living with itand living through it.
1163
01:09:06,100 --> 01:09:12,439
And so,
why not tell that deep and heartbreaking story of AIDS?
1164
01:09:22,783 --> 01:09:24,743
I had a two-weekperiod where I was certain that
1165
01:09:24,827 --> 01:09:28,956
I had AIDS,because it took two weeks for the test to come back.
1166
01:09:29,038 --> 01:09:31,332
And I remember going tomy doctor and wanting some
1167
01:09:31,417 --> 01:09:34,752
assurance that I didn't, and he
started trembling and said,
1168
01:09:34,837 --> 01:09:36,839
"I don't even know
whether I have it."
1169
01:09:36,921 --> 01:09:38,174
None of us did.
1170
01:09:39,550 --> 01:09:42,678
We all lived with theassumption that we had it
1171
01:09:42,761 --> 01:09:44,680
and that we were going to die.
1172
01:09:45,930 --> 01:09:49,977
And that's one of the reasons why I ended Tales of the City in 1989,
1173
01:09:50,060 --> 01:09:52,270
because I had establishedMichael Toliver
1174
01:09:52,354 --> 01:09:56,734
as a gay character who is HIV positive and I didn't want to continue
1175
01:09:56,817 --> 01:10:00,613
the tradition of killing
off the gay man at the end.
1176
01:10:01,780 --> 01:10:03,574
I don'tknow how much time I have left,
1177
01:10:03,657 --> 01:10:06,410
whether it's two years,or five, or fifty,
1178
01:10:16,921 --> 01:10:20,841
Everyone I
have loved since the epidemic
1179
01:10:20,925 --> 01:10:23,677
started has been HIV positive.
1180
01:10:25,012 --> 01:10:27,765
I knew Chris waspositive when I met him.
1181
01:10:28,599 --> 01:10:33,479
And both my partner at the time, Terry,and my best friend Steve
1182
01:10:33,562 --> 01:10:36,440
were diagnosed atroughly the same time.
1183
01:10:37,399 --> 01:10:40,527
Steve and I tried to have alittle romance, but we weren't
1184
01:10:40,611 --> 01:10:43,739
made for each other in
that way, but we were so made
1185
01:10:43,822 --> 01:10:45,074
for each other as friends.
1186
01:10:45,699 --> 01:10:48,619
He taught me everything I knewat the time about Bette Davis,
1187
01:10:48,702 --> 01:10:52,414
Busby Berkeley, andBette Midler, the holy B's.
1188
01:10:52,498 --> 01:10:55,000
And he was 15 years younger than I was,
and didn't even remember
1189
01:10:55,084 --> 01:10:58,504
these people,
but he was one of those gay men who knew our lore.
1190
01:10:59,421 --> 01:11:02,383
And I just adored him.
1191
01:11:03,092 --> 01:11:05,177
What made
you realize that you were gay?
1192
01:11:05,261 --> 01:11:06,720
A big man.
1193
01:11:06,804 --> 01:11:08,430
Will you shut up?
1194
01:11:08,514 --> 01:11:11,016
I have to
keep him under control.
1195
01:11:12,810 --> 01:11:15,145
Steve loved those old
Busby Berkeley songs.
1196
01:11:15,229 --> 01:11:17,147
So, I was always
playing "Let's Face the Music
1197
01:11:17,231 --> 01:11:19,275
and Dance", you know.
1198
01:11:19,358 --> 01:11:21,151
"There may be trouble ahead."
1199
01:11:23,279 --> 01:11:25,030
I'll cry if I
repeat the rest of it.
1200
01:11:25,114 --> 01:11:28,826
"But... but while there's music
and moonlight, and love, and
1201
01:11:28,909 --> 01:11:31,161
romance, let's face
the music and dance."
1202
01:11:32,997 --> 01:11:34,707
And there were a lot of
gay men who were doing...
1203
01:11:34,790 --> 01:11:36,750
doing that at the time.
1204
01:11:38,335 --> 01:11:43,007
♪ There may be trouble ahead ♪
1205
01:11:43,841 --> 01:11:50,806
♪ But while there's moonlight And music and love And romance ♪
1206
01:11:52,141 --> 01:11:57,104
♪ Let's face the musicAnd dance ♪
1207
01:11:59,231 --> 01:12:02,609
Steve was awonderfully open person who
1208
01:12:02,693 --> 01:12:05,112
made no secret of having AIDS,because he felt that it would
1209
01:12:05,195 --> 01:12:09,325
make life easier for peoplewho came after him.
1210
01:12:09,408 --> 01:12:11,118
A day doesn't go by in
which I don't feel the
1211
01:12:11,201 --> 01:12:12,703
impact of AIDS in some way.
1212
01:12:12,786 --> 01:12:16,123
I've lived with a man that I've
loved for the past ten years,
1213
01:12:16,206 --> 01:12:17,666
and we've knownfrom the very beginning
1214
01:12:17,750 --> 01:12:19,084
that he was HIV positive.
1215
01:12:20,544 --> 01:12:24,715
Maybe part of me thought that Iwould be the one that would be
1216
01:12:24,798 --> 01:12:27,676
sticking it out withTerry till the end.
1217
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:29,928
They called it acocktail divorce.
1218
01:12:30,012 --> 01:12:33,766
It's what happens when the
HIV medications come along and
1219
01:12:33,849 --> 01:12:37,061
someone who's thought he's going to die,
no longer thinks he's
1220
01:12:37,144 --> 01:12:40,939
going to die and the first thing he wants to do is breakup.
1221
01:12:41,774 --> 01:12:46,153
So, when the cocktail camealong, and he had that choice,
1222
01:12:46,236 --> 01:12:47,780
I didn't see that coming.
1223
01:12:50,074 --> 01:12:51,033
It was a hard time.
1224
01:12:51,116 --> 01:12:54,036
It was a very, very
hard time for me.
1225
01:12:54,119 --> 01:12:56,038
Probably one of the
hardest of my life.
1226
01:12:56,914 --> 01:12:58,916
But you have to get through...
you know everybody who
1227
01:12:58,999 --> 01:13:01,377
has ever been through a
breakup, knows that is.
1228
01:13:01,460 --> 01:13:03,796
Finding your way
back to yourself again.
1229
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:08,634
Olympia and Laura were terrificduring that period in my life,
1230
01:13:08,717 --> 01:13:10,636
because I was very fragile.
1231
01:13:10,719 --> 01:13:14,515
I think I must have been crying a fair amount on the phone with them.
1232
01:13:15,265 --> 01:13:18,352
My first marriage had just ended and Armistead
1233
01:13:18,435 --> 01:13:23,273
flew to Hartford and then
in a great sort of Southern
1234
01:13:23,357 --> 01:13:26,235
tradition, we were
just with each other.
1235
01:13:26,860 --> 01:13:32,908
And... and it strengthens
your spine when you're feeling
1236
01:13:33,158 --> 01:13:39,748
confused, and heartbroken, and
in grief, that
1237
01:13:40,207 --> 01:13:42,376
life is changing in a way that
you didn't expect.
1238
01:13:45,963 --> 01:13:47,423
And we sort of
clung to each other
1239
01:13:47,506 --> 01:13:49,007
during that period of time.
1240
01:13:50,843 --> 01:13:54,221
And... and... and then, after...
I think it was... I think it was
1241
01:13:54,304 --> 01:13:58,809
after that, Armistead invited me to...
to be with him during the
1242
01:13:58,892 --> 01:14:01,019
San Francisco Gay Pride Parade.
1243
01:14:01,103 --> 01:14:02,938
And he was one of the
grand marshals, and so I was...
1244
01:14:03,021 --> 01:14:04,940
I got to be his
lady in waiting.
1245
01:14:05,023 --> 01:14:09,278
And I found the original Mary Ann Singleton dress,the striped one,
1246
01:14:09,361 --> 01:14:12,197
and I wore that,and we were in the back of the car sitting,
1247
01:14:12,281 --> 01:14:13,991
and we wereboth brokenhearted.
1248
01:14:14,074 --> 01:14:15,784
I was brokenhearted.
1249
01:14:15,868 --> 01:14:17,703
Armistead was brokenhearted.
1250
01:14:17,786 --> 01:14:22,958
We were really
vulnerable, you know, sad,
1251
01:14:23,041 --> 01:14:24,835
mopey people at the time.
1252
01:14:24,918 --> 01:14:27,379
And I remember there
were people screaming
1253
01:14:27,463 --> 01:14:29,214
our names in adoration.
1254
01:14:29,298 --> 01:14:30,591
Armistead!
1255
01:14:30,674 --> 01:14:31,633
Laura!
1256
01:14:31,717 --> 01:14:32,968
Mary Ann!
1257
01:14:33,469 --> 01:14:35,929
And Armistead startedto laugh, and he laughed,
1258
01:14:36,013 --> 01:14:37,681
and laughed, and laughed.
1259
01:14:37,764 --> 01:14:41,101
And the journalist from The Chronicle took a picture at that
1260
01:14:41,185 --> 01:14:44,938
exact moment,and that's the photo that they ran the next day,
1261
01:14:45,022 --> 01:14:49,151
was that moment of... of usboth just in disbelief that we
1262
01:14:49,234 --> 01:14:54,781
were so brokenhearted and yet,
at the same time, being so feted
1263
01:14:54,865 --> 01:14:57,743
in a community of people
who were so loving,
1264
01:14:57,826 --> 01:15:00,078
who had so much love
to give to us.
1265
01:15:01,038 --> 01:15:02,456
You can tell by the applause,
we're here with
1266
01:15:02,539 --> 01:15:04,458
the grand marshal, Armistead
Maupin, and one of the stars
1267
01:15:04,541 --> 01:15:06,210
from Tales of the City,
of course, Laura Linney.
1268
01:15:06,293 --> 01:15:07,544
How... how's the
parade going for you?
1269
01:15:07,628 --> 01:15:08,670
Oh, it's just heaven.
1270
01:15:08,754 --> 01:15:09,755
This is the best seat in town.
1271
01:15:09,838 --> 01:15:11,215
You get to see everything.
1272
01:15:11,298 --> 01:15:12,966
A lot of fun
and feeling a lot of love.
1273
01:15:13,050 --> 01:15:13,884
Absolutely.
1274
01:15:13,967 --> 01:15:16,011
It's the best feeling
in the world, really.
1275
01:15:29,149 --> 01:15:32,277
My father had left out bigchunks of the family history.
1276
01:15:34,321 --> 01:15:37,866
His father killed himself,I think with a shotgun,
1277
01:15:37,950 --> 01:15:40,452
in his home whilehis family was there.
1278
01:15:42,204 --> 01:15:43,580
It was never talked about.
1279
01:15:43,664 --> 01:15:47,417
I wrote a novel about it,finally, in 2000.
1280
01:15:47,501 --> 01:15:52,089
And I guess the knowledge ofthat at 15 on my part, made me
1281
01:15:52,172 --> 01:15:55,300
start looking at my father in a different way,and realized that
1282
01:15:55,384 --> 01:16:00,347
maybe so much of this anger,so much of his political posturing,
1283
01:16:00,430 --> 01:16:03,684
and I figured that it may havecome from that moment where he
1284
01:16:03,767 --> 01:16:06,019
had to suddenly bethe man of the family.
1285
01:16:06,603 --> 01:16:08,063
And he was pissed off.
1286
01:16:08,146 --> 01:16:10,691
I would... I would
have been pissed off.
1287
01:16:10,774 --> 01:16:13,110
And I always
worried that my... my father
1288
01:16:13,193 --> 01:16:15,195
would do the same himself.
1289
01:16:34,172 --> 01:16:36,466
I lived in terror
of that, actually.
1290
01:16:37,593 --> 01:16:41,513
And I suppose I let him
get away with a lot of stuff,
1291
01:16:41,597 --> 01:16:43,098
and maybe my mother did, too.
1292
01:16:43,181 --> 01:16:44,725
She knew that about him, too.
1293
01:16:44,808 --> 01:16:47,728
In some ways he wasjust a big baby crying.
1294
01:16:48,895 --> 01:16:52,357
I was up in New York and we were shooting the Night Listener, and
1295
01:16:52,441 --> 01:16:56,194
there's a character inthere that is sort of him.
1296
01:16:56,278 --> 01:16:58,155
I'd be
careful if I was you.
1297
01:16:58,238 --> 01:16:59,072
Why?
1298
01:16:59,156 --> 01:17:00,824
Well, folks
could talk, that's all.
1299
01:17:00,907 --> 01:17:02,701
About what?
1300
01:17:02,784 --> 01:17:05,078
Use your damn head.
1301
01:17:05,162 --> 01:17:07,456
Just because you're shut down,
doesn't mean we all have to be.
1302
01:17:07,539 --> 01:17:10,208
What kind
of new age crap is that?
1303
01:17:10,584 --> 01:17:13,128
And my sister
called and said, appar...
1304
01:17:13,211 --> 01:17:14,421
"You should get home.
1305
01:17:14,504 --> 01:17:15,797
He's not doing well."
1306
01:17:17,090 --> 01:17:20,927
Chris, my husband,
tells me that my response to that initially
1307
01:17:21,011 --> 01:17:26,224
was, um... fuck him,
I can't take it.
1308
01:17:31,063 --> 01:17:33,231
I remembersaying to Armistead that you
1309
01:17:33,315 --> 01:17:35,150
know it's... that he
would regret it if we
1310
01:17:35,233 --> 01:17:37,319
didn't at least make the trip.
1311
01:17:37,402 --> 01:17:40,864
You know, what could it hurt to
just go and you know see him
1312
01:17:40,947 --> 01:17:42,949
while he was on his deathbed.
1313
01:17:43,033 --> 01:17:45,744
And so, we went down
and daddy fell in love with
1314
01:17:45,827 --> 01:17:52,376
Chris, this man 30 years my
junior, and Chris drove us
1315
01:17:52,459 --> 01:17:56,797
around town, and to any locales
that my father wanted to go to.
1316
01:17:56,880 --> 01:18:00,050
His house on HillsboroStreet, the one where my
1317
01:18:00,133 --> 01:18:02,260
grandfather killed himself.
1318
01:18:02,344 --> 01:18:03,970
And we went out tothe cemetery, which
1319
01:18:04,054 --> 01:18:06,306
had been an old family ritual.
1320
01:18:06,890 --> 01:18:08,850
For me,it was significant, because my
1321
01:18:08,934 --> 01:18:14,731
father is very conservative,
and I knew that it was a big stretch
1322
01:18:14,815 --> 01:18:20,278
for him to be accepting
me and us as a couple.
1323
01:18:20,362 --> 01:18:25,117
And I remember before we left, when...
as we were saying goodbye,
1324
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:28,620
you know, his dad said to me,
you know,
1325
01:18:28,704 --> 01:18:30,288
"You take care of that boy."
1326
01:18:31,540 --> 01:18:33,583
And now, that'sa 90-year-old man telling a
1327
01:18:33,667 --> 01:18:37,129
30-year-old man to takecare of a 60-year-old man.
1328
01:18:38,171 --> 01:18:40,132
He mellowed towardsthe end, and he did
1329
01:18:40,215 --> 01:18:42,342
tell me he was proud of me.
1330
01:18:42,426 --> 01:18:44,928
He just wasn't proud ofthe part that I thought
1331
01:18:45,011 --> 01:18:47,055
of as central to my life.
1332
01:18:49,641 --> 01:18:51,435
Many homosexuals
have become active in the
1333
01:18:51,518 --> 01:18:54,396
defense of what
they call gay rights.
1334
01:18:54,479 --> 01:18:56,481
Nowhere is that defenseunder greater attack
1335
01:18:56,565 --> 01:18:58,483
than in Miami, Florida.
1336
01:18:58,567 --> 01:18:59,901
AnitaBryant was once known
1337
01:18:59,985 --> 01:19:01,945
as an orange juice saleswoman.
1338
01:19:02,028 --> 01:19:03,363
Not anymore.
1339
01:19:03,447 --> 01:19:06,032
She has been selling herSave Our Children group.
1340
01:19:06,116 --> 01:19:07,617
And I know
that there is hope for the
1341
01:19:07,701 --> 01:19:12,581
homosexuals, that if they're
willing to turn from sin,
1342
01:19:12,664 --> 01:19:15,417
the same as any individual,
that... that they can be
1343
01:19:15,500 --> 01:19:18,295
ex-homosexuals the same as there can be an ex-murderer,
or an
1344
01:19:18,378 --> 01:19:20,130
ex-thief, or an ex-anybody.
1345
01:19:21,173 --> 01:19:23,049
During the time that Anita Bryant was doing
1346
01:19:23,133 --> 01:19:27,179
her anti-gay campaign inFlorida, and Teddy took her on,
1347
01:19:27,637 --> 01:19:30,432
Newsweek decided they were going to do an article about him, and
1348
01:19:30,515 --> 01:19:34,019
it was going to... gayauthor, Armistead Maupin.
1349
01:19:34,603 --> 01:19:38,023
And he didn't want his
father to find out that way.
1350
01:19:38,106 --> 01:19:40,358
So, that's when he
wrote the letter.
1351
01:19:40,442 --> 01:19:42,527
My own coming
out letter to my parents,
1352
01:19:42,611 --> 01:19:45,155
I published in The Chronicle
as the letter of one of the
1353
01:19:45,238 --> 01:19:47,324
characters in my serial.
1354
01:19:47,407 --> 01:19:50,619
And so, that my... my literary
life and my personal life
1355
01:19:50,702 --> 01:19:52,496
were running concurrently.
1356
01:19:53,789 --> 01:19:54,623
Okay. Okay.
1357
01:19:54,706 --> 01:19:58,335
This is the letter,
The Letter to Mama
1358
01:20:00,962 --> 01:20:02,631
that Michael writes.
1359
01:20:04,841 --> 01:20:06,134
He says, "Dear Mama..."
1360
01:20:15,143 --> 01:20:18,146
"I have friends who think I'm
foolish to write this letter.
1361
01:20:18,230 --> 01:20:19,731
I hope they're wrong.
1362
01:20:19,815 --> 01:20:22,400
I hope their doubts are based on parents who loved and trusted
1363
01:20:22,484 --> 01:20:24,653
them less than mine do.
1364
01:20:24,736 --> 01:20:28,865
I hope, especially,
that you'll see this as an act of love on my part,
1365
01:20:28,949 --> 01:20:32,160
a sign of my continuing need
to share my life with you."
1366
01:20:33,245 --> 01:20:35,038
"I wouldn't
have written I guess if
1367
01:20:35,121 --> 01:20:37,207
you hadn't told me
about your involvement in the
1368
01:20:37,290 --> 01:20:39,417
Save Our Children campaign.
1369
01:20:40,085 --> 01:20:44,256
That, more than anything, made
it clear that my responsibility
1370
01:20:44,339 --> 01:20:46,466
was to tell you the truth.
1371
01:20:47,217 --> 01:20:49,511
That your own
child is homosexual."
1372
01:20:50,136 --> 01:20:52,973
"No, mama, I wasn't recruited.
1373
01:20:53,056 --> 01:20:56,309
No seasoned homosexual
ever served as my mentor,
1374
01:20:56,393 --> 01:20:57,477
but you know what?
1375
01:20:57,561 --> 01:20:59,020
I wish someone had.
1376
01:21:00,772 --> 01:21:03,775
I wish someone older than me,
and wiser than the people in
1377
01:21:03,859 --> 01:21:07,904
Orlando had taken me aside and
said, 'It's all right, kid,
1378
01:21:07,988 --> 01:21:12,701
you can grow up to be a doctor,
or a teacher just like everyone else.
1379
01:21:14,077 --> 01:21:16,204
You're not crazy,
or sick, or evil.
1380
01:21:16,288 --> 01:21:20,250
You can succeed and be happy
and find peace with friends,
1381
01:21:20,333 --> 01:21:23,795
all kinds of friends,
who don't give a damn who you go to bed with.
1382
01:21:24,671 --> 01:21:28,091
Most of all, though,
you can love and be loved
1383
01:21:28,884 --> 01:21:30,468
without hating
yourself for it.'"
1384
01:21:32,178 --> 01:21:33,680
"I know this may
be hard for you to believe,
1385
01:21:33,763 --> 01:21:37,058
but San Francisco is full of men and women,
both straight and gay,
1386
01:21:37,142 --> 01:21:39,728
who don't consider
sexuality in measuring the
1387
01:21:39,811 --> 01:21:41,521
worth of another human being.
1388
01:21:42,522 --> 01:21:45,233
These aren't
radicals or weirdos, mama.
1389
01:21:45,317 --> 01:21:47,736
They are shop clerks, and
bankers, and little old ladies,
1390
01:21:47,819 --> 01:21:50,280
and people who nod
and smile at you when you
1391
01:21:50,363 --> 01:21:52,032
meet them on the bus."
1392
01:21:53,450 --> 01:21:55,619
"And their
message is so simple.
1393
01:21:55,702 --> 01:21:57,871
Yes, you are a person.
1394
01:21:57,954 --> 01:21:59,623
Yes, I like you.
1395
01:21:59,706 --> 01:22:03,168
Yes, it's all right for
you to like me, too."
1396
01:22:03,877 --> 01:22:06,713
"All I know is this,
if you and papa are responsible
1397
01:22:06,796 --> 01:22:10,884
for the way I am, then I
thank you with all my heart.
1398
01:22:10,967 --> 01:22:14,054
For it's the light and
the joy of my life."
1399
01:22:28,526 --> 01:22:31,696
♪There's not much elseI can say ♪
1400
01:22:32,155 --> 01:22:37,410
♪ Except that I'm the sameMicheal you've always known ♪
1401
01:22:38,161 --> 01:22:40,372
♪ You just know me better now ♪
1402
01:22:42,415 --> 01:22:43,875
"Please don't feel you have
1403
01:22:43,959 --> 01:22:45,460
to answer this right away.
1404
01:22:45,543 --> 01:22:47,921
It's enough for me to know that
I no longer have to lie to the
1405
01:22:48,004 --> 01:22:50,632
people who taught me
to value the truth."
1406
01:22:51,549 --> 01:22:53,843
"Mary Ann sends her love.
1407
01:22:53,927 --> 01:22:56,596
Everything is fine
at 28 Barbary Lane.
1408
01:22:56,680 --> 01:22:59,182
Your loving son, Michael."
1409
01:23:03,436 --> 01:23:05,438
I wanted aresponse from my own parents,
1410
01:23:05,522 --> 01:23:06,815
which I didn't get.
1411
01:23:06,898 --> 01:23:09,442
My mother was dyingof cancer at the time.
1412
01:23:10,110 --> 01:23:11,569
It was how I came out to them.
1413
01:23:11,653 --> 01:23:14,906
They were subscribing to The Chronicle and I knew when they
1414
01:23:14,990 --> 01:23:18,076
got to that, theywould know it was me.
1415
01:23:18,159 --> 01:23:20,286
It was just tooclose for comfort.
1416
01:23:21,579 --> 01:23:25,083
But my father wrote me a very terse little letter on his legal pad
1417
01:23:25,166 --> 01:23:28,670
that said, "Any extra
stress on your mother is only
1418
01:23:28,753 --> 01:23:31,548
going to make her die faster."
1419
01:23:36,052 --> 01:23:37,303
Not nice.
1420
01:23:52,485 --> 01:23:55,155
I, a few years back,coined a phrase.
1421
01:23:55,238 --> 01:23:57,532
I refer to thelogical family as opposed
1422
01:23:57,615 --> 01:24:00,577
to your biological family.
1423
01:24:00,660 --> 01:24:03,621
It's clearer and clearer as I get older,
that sometimes people
1424
01:24:03,705 --> 01:24:06,708
who... that you share
blood with are not coming
1425
01:24:06,791 --> 01:24:08,626
along with you on the ride.
1426
01:24:09,502 --> 01:24:13,173
And it's time to stop punishing
yourself about that and just
1427
01:24:13,256 --> 01:24:18,178
realize where the real love,
and support, and unconditional love
1428
01:24:18,261 --> 01:24:20,305
is coming from in your life.
1429
01:24:24,350 --> 01:24:28,354
In this new crazy culture that we live in that has
1430
01:24:28,438 --> 01:24:32,484
gotten so far away from our old
school tribal village culture,
1431
01:24:32,567 --> 01:24:36,321
we move into the world feeling
alienated, and isolated, and
1432
01:24:36,404 --> 01:24:40,492
fucked up, and... and with
a sense of not belonging.
1433
01:24:41,534 --> 01:24:43,328
You grow up somewhere.
1434
01:24:43,411 --> 01:24:44,329
It doesn't fit.
1435
01:24:44,412 --> 01:24:45,371
It doesn't make sense.
1436
01:24:45,455 --> 01:24:46,372
You don't feel real.
1437
01:24:46,456 --> 01:24:48,166
You don't feel accepted.
1438
01:24:48,249 --> 01:24:50,251
And then you get to parttwo of your life where you
1439
01:24:50,335 --> 01:24:53,421
find that placethat you belong.
1440
01:24:54,339 --> 01:24:57,842
When Armistead described logical family to me,and I said,
1441
01:24:57,926 --> 01:25:00,762
"Oh, you mean that thing that we've all been doing all our lives?"
1442
01:25:00,845 --> 01:25:02,222
And he went, "Yeah."
1443
01:25:03,973 --> 01:25:08,561
So many of usfeel alienated from the people
1444
01:25:08,645 --> 01:25:10,647
who brought us into the world.
1445
01:25:11,564 --> 01:25:17,153
It can make you feel really isolated, desperate,
unmoored in
1446
01:25:17,237 --> 01:25:19,489
ways that you just
don't... sometimes you just
1447
01:25:19,572 --> 01:25:21,241
don't know are happening.
1448
01:25:21,991 --> 01:25:27,539
So, the idea of logical family,I think really gives people an
1449
01:25:27,622 --> 01:25:30,959
option to say I choose you.
1450
01:25:33,837 --> 01:25:36,131
I call it extended family
1451
01:25:36,214 --> 01:25:38,716
and that's what we do.
1452
01:25:38,800 --> 01:25:43,263
My role in most of the extended
family is auntie or granny.
1453
01:25:45,890 --> 01:25:47,684
More and more thesedays, people are aware that
1454
01:25:47,767 --> 01:25:50,687
that's what they need to getthrough life, people who,
1455
01:25:50,770 --> 01:25:53,356
of like mind, who
love and support you.
1456
01:26:15,712 --> 01:26:20,466
I would say that
Armistead has told stories that
1457
01:26:20,550 --> 01:26:22,844
make you want to
tell your story.
1458
01:26:25,346 --> 01:26:32,312
He made characters who were like people you know,
and you wanted
1459
01:26:32,395 --> 01:26:37,108
to tell them in turn what
you hadn't been able to say,
1460
01:26:37,192 --> 01:26:39,235
or what your back story was.
1461
01:26:40,195 --> 01:26:44,115
Tell me again
about those Gatsby eyes.
1462
01:26:45,408 --> 01:26:51,664
He allowed people to be truthful,
and to know why it was
1463
01:26:51,748 --> 01:26:54,209
important to betruthful beyond themselves.
1464
01:27:03,885 --> 01:27:08,181
My career hashad a very slow unfolding,
1465
01:27:08,264 --> 01:27:12,018
and the story I've told haskept ongoing for 40 years,
1466
01:27:12,101 --> 01:27:13,770
and people are finding it.
1467
01:27:15,563 --> 01:27:18,399
A writer's life has ups anddowns, and there's not a whole
1468
01:27:18,483 --> 01:27:21,027
lot of money flowgoing on right now.
1469
01:27:22,820 --> 01:27:26,616
It was a real lesson for me tomove into our current
1470
01:27:26,699 --> 01:27:29,953
ground level flat in aVictorian house in the Castro.
1471
01:27:32,747 --> 01:27:36,542
I don't mind being back in asort of Mary Ann Singleton
1472
01:27:36,626 --> 01:27:39,170
situation where I canhear the people going up
1473
01:27:39,254 --> 01:27:41,005
the steps to the flat above.
1474
01:27:41,089 --> 01:27:42,590
Have a good weekend?
1475
01:27:42,674 --> 01:27:45,510
I've had a hard time distinguishing between yearning
1476
01:27:45,593 --> 01:27:49,138
for my own youth and yearningfor the old San Francisco.
1477
01:27:51,057 --> 01:27:54,394
This is still the most beautiful place in the world to me,
1478
01:27:54,477 --> 01:27:56,062
and where I want to be.
1479
01:27:57,188 --> 01:28:00,650
It still has anenchanted feel to it.
1480
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:03,528
Times change.
1481
01:28:08,533 --> 01:28:12,954
Herb Caen,
who was the great columnist when I was a young man
1482
01:28:13,037 --> 01:28:15,748
here, was always grumping about
how things were so much better
1483
01:28:15,832 --> 01:28:18,001
back in the '30s and '40s.
1484
01:28:18,084 --> 01:28:20,336
Well, you were young
then, Herb, and you know, and I
1485
01:28:20,420 --> 01:28:22,171
was young in the '70s and '80s.
1486
01:28:22,255 --> 01:28:25,508
And they were
lovely, but here we are, and
1487
01:28:25,591 --> 01:28:29,595
I'm fucking lucky to be alive.
1488
01:28:30,596 --> 01:28:32,765
That's what I
keep coming back to.
1489
01:28:32,849 --> 01:28:34,726
I'm so lucky to be alive.
1490
01:28:35,518 --> 01:28:38,396
I don't have friends who could
be here with me,
1491
01:28:38,479 --> 01:28:41,024
and have the luxury of griping
about the Google bus.
1492
01:28:41,107 --> 01:28:42,775
They are long gone.
1493
01:28:43,735 --> 01:28:47,947
And so, I try to
live my life for them.
1494
01:28:50,199 --> 01:28:52,035
It was so
cool to see Donna there.
1495
01:28:52,118 --> 01:28:53,703
Let
me show you this window.
1496
01:28:53,786 --> 01:28:55,955
- Have you seen this?
- Oh, no.
1497
01:28:56,914 --> 01:28:58,416
It's great.
1498
01:28:59,792 --> 01:29:01,586
Now,
that's just so great.
1499
01:29:02,837 --> 01:29:04,255
Stay visible.
1500
01:29:05,256 --> 01:29:06,299
Should we...
1501
01:29:06,382 --> 01:29:07,425
Go get a Dapper Dog?
1502
01:29:07,508 --> 01:29:09,385
Dapper Dog.
1503
01:29:09,761 --> 01:29:11,012
- A little sustenance...
- Yeah.
1504
01:29:11,095 --> 01:29:12,889
- ...after your show.
- Yeah.
1505
01:29:12,972 --> 01:29:14,974
- That was great.
- Oh, thanks, baby.
125543
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