All language subtitles for 1x03 wrong man

With shock and disbelief,

onlookers stare
at Tardy Furniture Company,

the site of Winona's
quadruple shooting.

Friends and relatives
identify the dead

as Tardy Furniture store owner
Bertha Tardy,

her bookkeeper, Carmen Rigby,

and a newly-hired employee,
Robert Goldman.

The fourth victim,
Derrick "Bo-Bo" Stewart,

like the others,

the teenage all-star
baseball player

was shot in the back
of the head,

execution style.

On July 16th of 1996,

somebody goes into
the Tardy Furniture store,

steals $380-something
out of the cash register,

and leaves four bodies
on the floor.

Locals describe Tardy
as a person

who was well known
and well liked here.

They say she as very active

in her community
and her church.

For those reasons,
many here are having

a hard time believing
her family business

has become the site
of such a gruesome crime.

Somebody had went in

and killed everybody
in the store.

Gangland style...

they had been shot, you know,
point-blank range.

The bodies were
discovered by an elderly man

who worked for...
for Bertha Tardy.

He had just been called in to...
to train the new recruits.

It... It was just, uh...
just horror.

Everybody was shocked.

I mean, the town of Winona had

never seen a murder
on that scale

in its history.

We were the big center
of attention of the media.

Journalists coming in
from newspapers all over.

Helicopters from TV stations
from Memphis

flying around.

I-It was just a madhouse.

There's very little information

being disseminated
by authorities.

They're still working
inside the store,

at the crime scene.

The first question was, "Why?"

The second question was "Who?"

My understanding is,

Curtis Flowers became a suspect
almost right away,

largely based on a conversation

that the Mississippi, um,
Sheriff's Department,

Police Department had
with the daughter

of one of the victims,
Roxanne Ballard.

The daughter mentioned
that Curtis Flowers

had gotten into some sort
of dispute over money.

Flowers had been
working for Bertha Tardy.

He had been fired from that job
for failing to show up.

He didn't show up because
he damaged some batteries,

he was told he would
have to replace.

There was, apparently,
a check made out to him

on the desk...

It's my understanding
of how they got,

fairly quickly,
from a universe of suspects

to Curtis Flowers.
-Okay.

The police took him
in for questioning.

They did a GSR test...
a gun shot residue test.

They found one
particle on his right hand.

One single particle.

If he did all
this shooting,

wouldn't he have more
than one particle?

-He could've washed his hands.
-Mm-hmm.

He... He could have
wiped his hands.

Okay, could he get
gunshot residue on his hand

from being
in the police car?

-From transferring, yes.
-Yes, absolutely.

-Okay.
-Yep.

There is also the money
that was found

in his girlfriend's house.
-Mm-hmm.

Right,
police reported around $400

was taken from the cash
register at Tardy's,

and they found about $250
at the girlfriend's house.

Were they hid
in the headboard or...?

Yeah, it was
in the head-- Right.

-I... I mean...
-Some people don't like banks.

That doesn't mean,
you know,

she was hiding
his stash money.

Another critical piece
of evidence

is that Fila footwear
impression.

Bloody shoe prints are
found at the crime scene,

and police figure out
they match Fila sneakers,

size 10 1/2...
Curtis' shoe size.

And then they find
an empty shoe box

at the home of his girlfriend.

But there was
no sneakers in there.

And she said that those shoes
belong to her son.

She said they, uh...
belong to her son.

I know they're a popular
sneaker, but we still have to...

we still have to think
about that.

The gun itself
was never recovered.

But they determined
it was a .380.

Curtis Flowers' uncle,
Doyle Simpson,

had reported a .380 stolen
from his car

around the time
of the murders.

So now you've got, uh,
two links,

with the missing gun
and the gunshot residue.

Just if we were gonna
freeze-frame it day one,

that was more than enough,
right,

to convince the police
that Curtis did it.

And the only question there is,

how do they go about
confirming their beliefs

that he did it.
-Yeah.

Just looking at the evidence,

there is a great deal
of circumstantial evidence

that would tend to point
to Curtis Flowers.

However, things are not always
as they appear.

You know, I feel that
if I had that same information,

I might have found him guilty,
as well.

But there's a lot
of question.

There is some
reasonable doubt here.

But I don't rule out the fact
that I think

he is the person that
did this...

at least one of the persons
that did this.

I'm not comfortable
with circumstantial evidence

on top of an inference
on top of an inference

on top of
circumstantial evidence.

Oh, I-I-I think
Curtis Flowers is...

is not guilty.

Um...I-I'm not convinced
Curtis Flowers is...

is innocent,
but had I been a sitting juror

faced with the record
the sitting jurors had,

I-I would have found him
not guilty.

And what we want to try
to do here is

to figure out useful approaches
to see whether,

in fact,
they have the wrong man.

The problem that we have
with this case at this point

is it is so old,

it has been tried
so many times...

-Mm-hmm.
-...that I don't think

we're gonna receive
any cooperation.

We gotta have somebody that's got
familiarity with the local area.

If we do not have that, it...
There's gonna be a void.

I mean, in law enforcement,
it's all about your contacts.

It is.

But we do need someone,
also, to be tenacious.

Yeah.

We luckily have a man
on the ground,

a local investigator
that's helping us.

He's from Jackson,
which is close to Winona,

so maybe he can get in
where we can't.

-Charlie?
-Yes, sir!

Can you hear us?
How are you doing over there?

We're doing well.

Were you around at that time,
actively working?

Do you remember hearing about
the case at all?

Yes, it's tremendous news,

especially in a quiet
little community

like Winona, Mississippi.

What can you tell
us about sort of the...

the current feeling
in Winona

about Flowers,
about this case?

It's a small town.

Everybody knows
everybody.

Everybody is in
everybody's business,

just like it is
in all small towns.

I think in... in 1996,
in Mississippi,

if you got a black man accused
of such a horrific crime

involving a white family,
I think there's gonna be...

there's gonna be
some racial issues there.

It's a very
interesting case,

and we're gonna upset
a few people

in Montgomery County,
Mississippi,

when we start.

I think the first thing
we need to do

is go to the location
of the Tardy Furniture store...

...and just see what's there.

We're going to meet Alan Bean,

who has been involved in
this case for quite a while.

Oh, if the walls of this
building could talk...

what we would find out.

Alan?

What attracted my attention
to Winona

was an e-mail I got
from, uh, one of the attorneys.

And it was interesting
the way he framed it.

He framed it historically.

He said,
"Winona, you may remember,

uh, was the place where
Fannie Lou Hamer

and her friends
were beat up in 1963."

And sometimes I think...
nothing much has changed there.

Civil Rights icon
Fannie Lou Hamer

was my aunt.

And she and several other
people in June, 1963,

were traveling through here.

The bus stopped, and, uh...

they were incarcerated, um...

on, really, fake charges,

and, uh...she was
nearly beaten to death

at the hands of two
black prisoners

on the authority of the local
law enforcement.

We already in Mississippi,

where the racial lines
have always been draw.

The law enforcement...
they treat the black peoples

different from the whites,
you know.

A black person can go
and do something

that's really not that bad.

Oh, they'll charge them
so much money, give them...

White person do it, unh-unh.

So, we've been working
with this case

for almost a decade now.

They turned the store into
kind of a junk store

or a...
consignment store.

I can see.

But is the main entrance still
at the same point?

Yes, mm-hmm.
This is it right here.

-All right.
-So, uh...

I see
we're locked out.

Yeah.
Not real happy to see us.

During all the times you have
looked into this... Mm-hmm.

Has there ever been a time
where you say,

"Well, maybe...
maybe Curtis did this"?

Well, I have worked very hard
to look at the St--

the State's theory of the case
and imagine it happening.

And I just can't
do it.

Now, do you think your role
as a pastor, as well...Mm-hmm.

...do you think
if he had done it,

he would have told you?

If Curtis,
who's a very devout Christian

and, um, a person

who is not
complicated emotionally,

if he had done something
this horrendous,

I think it would
eat at him.

The only scenario
I can imagine

was if he was devoid
of conscience...

if he just had no empathy

and no compassion
for other people,

uh, and so it didn't
bother him.

But he has...

demonstrated again
and again that

he's at the opposite end
of that spectrum.

Curtis was the type of person,

he can get along with anybody,
everybody, you know.

You can stop anybody
that ever know Curtis

and ask them,
and they'll tell you.

Mnm-mnm.

Curtis been a joker
all his life, you know?

He clown around all the time,
played basketball.

Softball, wrestled...

just everything that boys do,
we growed up doing it.

But it was always good times.

Curtis sung in a group,
a gospel group.

His gifts are musical.

And he's an excellent singer.

He loves to sing.

He's not, uh, an intellectual
by any means.

He always struggled in school.
He's a simple soul.

And I think there's a lot of,

uh, purity of heart there.

You're going to school,
and you got the class clown.

That's... That's the kind
of guy Curtis was.

He was always...
if you wasn't smiling,

he gonna do something
to make you smile.

He's a mild-mannered,
gentle human being.

The idea that he could have
pulled off a crime like this

at all,
let alone by himself,

which has been the State's
theory for 20 years,

is completely...
I mean, it's laughable.

I-It would be funny if
we weren't where we are now.

Curtis Flowers,
I-I think became,

if not the most tried defendant
in American history,

certainly more trails
and... and reversals

than I've ever seen
in any case in... in my life.

Six trials...

That is a lot.

First couple of trials

were overturned
for prosecutorial misconduct

based on the prosecutors

were making statements
during closing arguments

that had no basis
in the evidence.

Those have been reversed.

He's convicted
of capital murder,

sentenced to death in 2004.

The third trial
was overturned

based on the prosecution's
egregious striking

of black jurors off
of the jury.

He was tried a fourth
and fifth time,

and both of those trials
ended in mistrials.

Finally, in 2010,

he's convicted of all four
counts of capital murder.

He's sentenced to death.

Curtis is waiting on a decision

on his direct appeal

based on egregious striking

of African-American jurors.

The case is now with the
Mississippi Supreme Court.

And depending on how they rule,

there could be a seventh trial.

So y-you have conviction after
conviction after conviction

being overturned for
prosecutorial misconduct.

It is the same prosecutor

for 21 years!

Ladies and gentlemen,
I can sit up here for five days

and argue the facts
of this case.

But y'all have heard it.

Y'all have heard
the important parts.

There is only one verdict
there can be there.

It's not murder,
it is capital murder.

The way
that he's selecting the jury,

apparently, he's
eliminating minorities.

Just based on that fact
alone,

which the Mississippi
Supreme Court says

is racially motivated,
that's improper.

In what universe does somebody
not intervene

and say,
"You know what, buddy?

I know you feel real strong
about this,

but maybe we should not
have you re-try it."

It's political.

Prosecutors are
elected officials.

Uh, he's elected from the area
in which the murders occurred.

In order to remain in office
to... to do his job,

I think he has to...
to bring someone to justice.

-Miss Flowers?
-Yes, sir?

-How are you?
-All right, and you?

-Good.
-Mm-hmm.

-I'm Charlie Saums.
-Lola Flowers.

-I do investigative work.
-Okay.

Glad to have you here.

Good.
I'm glad to be here.

Archie, my name
is Charlie Saums.

-Archie Flowers.
-It's nice to meet you, sir.

Nice to meet you.

Let me tell you
what I'm doing.

I'm here to find
the facts.

And I don't know
any other place to start

than with you.

And I'd appreciate
if you'd help me.

Archie, let me ask you,
how long you been here,

in Winona?

Mmm, all my life.

All your life.

Tell me about Curtis.
Was he a good child?

I thought he was.

Did you have any trouble
out of him at all?

Never.

Did you ever have any trouble
with him with...

with drinking or drugs
or anything like that?

I had never.

Never had, never...
did you suspect it at all?

-I mean, did you ever--
-Oh, I saw to...

tried to keep my eye on him
when they were growing up,

but I never did see him
do nothing.

As a child, did you
ever take him out

and teach him
how to shoot a gun?

-Shotgun, yeah.
-A shotgun.

We killed squirrels.

Did he hunt much?

Well, a little bit.

Did you ever know of him
to own a pistol,

or, I mean, in any point
along the way?

Didn't have no mind
about no pistol.

I understand.

Did you have a chance
to talk to Curtis

before they arrested him,
before he went to jail?

-Right.
-What did he tell you?

-He told me he didn't do it.
-What'd you ask him?

Did you ask him point-blank,
"Did you do it?"

I said I wonder who did it,
and he said...

I know one thing, he said,

"I'm sure glad I wasn't
down there.

It sure wasn't me."

I tell you what I did,
I just prayed about it.

I said, "Lord, You...
You know what happened."

You know,
and every night,

'cause my mind kept on saying,

no, your son didn't do it.

At any rate,
I-I just kept praying.

Yeah, Lord knows
I shed many tears over it.

I understand.

Well,
I appreciate your time.

I know it's hard to talk
about it.

It really is.

And while I'm in town,
and while I'm around,

if you think of anything,
would you please let me know?

Yeah, I will do it.

Like I said, I don't...

He didn't do it.

Seems to be
no history of violence

whatsoever
in Curtis Flowers.

He's lost jobs before.

He's been fired.
He's walked away.

Well, you describe him
as passive, initially, right?

You say he's kind of
a nice guy,

never been in trouble,
whatever like that.

He may have been
a coward, too.

You know, so, "Now I got a gun.
I got me a...

I got me some, you know,
I got... I got some bravery now,

I can go in here with this gun,
you know.

Right, right.And I don't think
you need to have a Ph.D

to, you know, to say,
"Hey, look here.

You know what,
that guy is still moving.

You know, he can identify me.
I need to finish him off."

You know, shoot him
in the top of the head.

It was awfully good
shooting, right?

Three are killed, I think,
with one shot each,

and one is killed
with two shots.

I-I know, .380
is a nice gun,

and there's all kinds
of really accurate versions.

But that is some
damn fine shooting.

Think we can't focus on,
you know,

the accuracy of this...

the perpetrator,
how he fires a shot.

The average guy,
if you point...

If I told you
to close your eye and point,

and then you open your eye,
you'd be right on target.

So when you naturally just
pull a gun and start pointing,

trust me, it's a lot easier
to hit somebody.

The lady that I'm going
to talk to now is Miss James.

And Curtis Flowers' mother

has suggested
that I talk to her

about just the general attitude
of the people in the community.

She sat through these trials,
so, you know,

as we all have seen
in investigative work,

she's somewhat of
a courthouse groupie.

Have you ever doubted
whether or not

Curtis was guilty or not?No, sir.

You stood by and think
he's innocent that whole time?

You believe one person
did that?

I believe more than one.

You think it...
you think it was two people?

Yeah.

Couldn't be no one person
that kill all them people.

You know of any other people
they looked at or talked to?

Doyle and them.

Doyle and who?

His brother.

Now, is that... now you talking
about Doyle Simpson?

-Yeah.
-And his brother Emmett.

Yeah.

What would Doyle--They said that was his gun.

That was his gun.

But they ain't
got no gun.

What would...
What motive would Doyle have--

She don't know what
the hell she talking about.

-What?
-You.

What you talking about? You don't know none
of this shit.

What you telling him?

You don't know what
you're talking about.

-What?
-Excuse me.

You... Why are you
out here, investigating?

You don't even know
what's going on.What you talking about?

What do you mean,
what I'm talking about, Mama.

Why you doing this?
You know nothing about this.

Okay, somebody gonna come here
and do something to you.

I ain't scared of nothing.I... Well, ain't nobody
saying you scared.

Then whatchu talking 'bout?Ain't nobody scared,
but I'm just saying.

What you talking--This stuff is not right!

My mom is 69...
gonna be 70 years old.

She don't need to be dragged,
drug in this.

I mean, people going
to folks houses,

burning houses down
like they did theirs.

And I don't need this going on
in my mama house.

I think it's safe to say
that emotions in the community

are pretty high about this.

Some people could
be in danger...

not only from
what they perceive

to be as the investigation
itself,

but from the community...

if they're talking about it.

You know, this
black boy was on the jury.

He said, uh...
"I wish they fry him."

A member of the jury
said that?

Right. And he told somebody else.

He told another on the jury...
He said, "I hope they fry him."

"I hope they fry him."

And this was
during a break?

That's during a break.

Were people pretty quiet
around you

during these trials?Mm-hmm.

I'll bet they...
Except...

the last time,
there was some stuff said

outside to him...

I didn't hear,
my daughter was out there.

And she said this man said,

"They better not
let that nigger loose,

because if they do, another
house gonna get burned up."

During that time,
before then,

our house just caught afire
and burn up one night.

Who was that character
that said that?

He wasn't on... on the jury at the time?
No, uh-uh.

-No, just...
-But he was attending the trail.

So the fire happened after
the incident at Tardy's.

Mm-hmm.
And before that?

Yes, sir. And that's
-- burned the h--

Did it burn the house to the ground?
Completely.

So you are convinced that house
fire was a result of that.

I'm really convinced...

that somebody did
something to it.

Even if Curtis is released
in a small town like this,

I think he'll be threatened.

There will be a threat
on his life.

So I feel like
whatever he does,

he probably won't be
able to stay here.

If Curtis get out,

they probably will try
to do something.

But he won't be here.

Because if they ever come
in this house...

they're not going back
the way they came in.

Ain't gonna sit up here
and let them do nothing to it.

Mm-hmm.

"If anyone
comes here in town

wanting to film a documentary,
please, please,

ask questions, demand answers.

I almost bet you
won't be onboard.

Devil is here, people.

Keep an eye open."

Winona, Mississippi.

Winona.

And I been doing this
a long time.

When you think
you seen it all...

You haven't seen it all,
have you?

No, you never seen it all.
You know that.

We only think we have.

And I done seen a lot.

This is...

probably the craziest case
I ever seen in my life.

This town is very opinionated
about what's going on up here.

Ah, they're not real happy
to see us there.

Some folks have been
very cooperative,

others are not.

There seems to be just a little
intimidation in some people.

They seem to be a little scared
to talk about this.

I need your help.

Let's see if we can
knock on doors.

-Glad to help you.
-Absolutely.

The store is
divided into two halves.

The north half is where
the victims are located.

The south half is divided
by the wall

with two entrances
to the north side ramp

near the victims
one and two.

Th-They were in the back of
the store where this happens.

I think the flight is gonna be
from the back, not the front.

So you want
to check the back?

Yep.

Yeah, he wouldn't have come out
the front door.

No.

Whoever went in there,
they went in there quickly

and had to eliminate
these people quickly.

And there may have been more
than one perpetrator.

What stands out to me is, uh,
there's a lot of control

-at that crime scene, Ira.
-Yes.

That's physical control...
four victims.

There are two or three
similar shoe impressions

of blood near victim two.

They're all at that
down-ramp area.

That's coming right out this door.
Yep.

Somebody knew to come out the back.
Yep.

It's a disorganized
crime scene.

Why do you
think it's disorganized?

Just... just the way
that the... the...

that the scene is set up.

You know, the female
with the shoe off,

she may have been
running.

And, you know,
that missing shoe is...

-is intriguing.
-Yeah.

Uh, because there's some type
of physical...

physical altercation.
There's some...

And I know you probably looked
at it, Ira.

That Bertha Tardy...

look at how far she is away from...
Right.

You know, her glasses get
up under the bed. Yeah.

She's the only one
that's far away

from everybody else.
Yep.

Okay. Well, did they come in,
take her out first?

And she's in here,
is what they're thinking,

by her contents
and everything.

So, she's probably
sitting in here.

-She tried to run.
-Yep.

You know, it's interesting
because there's only a couple

of legitimate flight paths
in and out of there.

You know, because you're...
you're in front of the store,

you know, essentially,
on Main Street.

Now, this is a very small town
in Mississippi,

but the Tardy Furniture store

is at the end of
the... the road.

This is gonna be the flight path
right here.

That is the dry cleaners.

-That's right.
-The dry cleaner is gone.

Yes, that's where I would go.
I wouldn't come out this door,

I wouldn't go here. It's too much... much
traffic.Yeah, there's nothing to go that way.

You're dead there.There's too much traffic.

That's dead.I wouldn't got down here.

There's too many people
that could be outside.

I wouldn't go up through here.
You can get trapped up here.

I'd go here.

I think when they came in,
they was gonna rob the place.

Bertha Tardy tried
to run out the front.

I think that's what caused
everybody to get shot and killed.

She got hit.

They had to take
everybody else out.

They went back out.

I think they...
you had a building here,

that cleaners here,
right here,

so that was some cover
and concealment.

They probably either
ran or drove

straight up that alley.

And somebody knew
that back door probably

was gonna be unlocked or open
or something...

Somebody knew.

I think it was
a former employee

or somebody that knew
an employee

or something like that.

It should be the case that

an investigation starts
broad and open

and so that,
when new information comes in,

it's not filtered through
the desire to reach

a particular conclusion.

What happened here is,
they identified

Curtis Flowers very early on,

decided he was the suspect,

so all the information that
was coming in was really

with an eye toward
confirming that conclusion,

rather than keeping
an open mind.

You know, because the case
is... it's not crystal clear...

The weapon was never found,
and things like that...

people are just torn.

And, uh, I'm one of them.

There was a lot of talk
during the trial

that the case was rushed.

A lot of things, uh,
evidence, perhaps,

was not taken properly.

Their investigation
was terrible.

I mean, if you
look through the files,

there are scraps of paper

that might have the name
of the person being interviewed

with some chicken-scratch notes
about what they said.

That was a big part of
the argument of the defense,

was that the investigation
was bungled

and the only person

they concentrated on
was Curtis Flowers

when they could've been
pursuing other leads.

I don't want to accuse any cop
of any wrongdoing, but...

you know, the case
was investigated,

uh, kind of sloppy...
like they were looking

for something to point it
towards Curtis

or to kind of validate
their beliefs

that Curtis was the one
that did it.

I think there's some funny
business going on here.

I tried to reach out and talk
to Chief Hargrove.

You know, he was one
of the first responders.

He observed
the crime scene first.

And I got no response
or either voicemail not set up.

He still lives in town.

So maybe Chief Hargrove will

talk with me about this case.

And so we go up to his door,
and nobody answered the door.

Well, this seems
pretty buttoned-up.

You don't hear any noises.

He's got power running.

So somebody's at least
living there.

But he must have had
cameras and sensors,

because about five minutes
later, his daughter drives up.

Hey, how you doing?

Looking for Johnny.

-Oh, he's not here?
-Unh-unh.

You his wife?

Oh, his daughter!
Oh, hey. How you doing?

Okay, beautiful.

How you doing, sir?

Hey, my name is, uh, Ira Todd.

I just wanted to talk to you
about that Curtis, uh, case.

So when I tried to speak
with him on the phone,

and he just started screaming
and cursing at me,

telling me to get the hell
off his property and...

What?
Oh, he was just...

I mean just going crazy.
"Get off my property!"

He wouldn't listen to a word
I was saying.

And I... All right.
Well, I appreciate your time.

Right, and I mean no...
I mean no offense.

I understand. I understand
you want your privacy.

You know, "Hey. I just want
to talk to you." Mm-hmm.

"Want to find out
some things about the case."

And, uh, he didn't care.

He was just, "Get the hell
off my property."

Well, he's got...

motion sensors and cameras
up there,

so he saw it on his phone.

So he sent everybody...
He sent the cavalry.

He said he don't want
to talk at all.

A couple minutes after that, uh,
police was all around us.

-He had called the police on us.
-What?

Yes.

How y'all doing?Good, how you doing, sir?

All right.
Hey, those guys over there,

they don't want y'all back
on their property.

Oh, no problem.And that, uh...

That guy that used
to be chief,

he don't want to give any kind
of statement

about any of
that kind of stuff.

Okay.He don't want nobody
to mess with him.

Oh, no problem, man.
No problem.

Okay. Thank y'all.Thank you.
Okay, appreciate you.

He called the
police on the police?

Local department
and the Sheriff's department.

So yeah.
Wow.

You guys know why
I'm passionate about

wrongfully-convicted
people,

because I almost became
a wrongfully-convicted person.

And, like, back in 1993,

I was working gang squad
in Detroit Police Department.

So me and my partner was
working down there one night.

I heard a shot,
saw my partner fall.

I reacted the way
I was trained to react.

I was trying to save
my partner's life.

What were you charged with?I was charged with murder-two,

unintentional murder.

It was a high-profile case,

and the prosecutor
at the time,

they were making it
more, you know,

political and high-profile

because this was
one of the biggest cases

that was going on
at that time.

So that's why
I'm so adamant about

wrongfully-convicted
people,

because you can see
how somebody could get accused

of something,
and the facts get twisted up.

Then the next thing you know,
you sitting at that table,

fighting for your life.

Dale,
I-I've looked at this,

and I... I've got some
real questions.

What's the most
compelling thing that

they got right now,
evidence-wise?

I don't think they have
any one single

compelling
piece of evidence.

I don't, either.

The whole thing is
circumstantial, from the jump.

You've got witness statements,
but they're all conflicting.

Just in my first read-through,
there's, I think,

a half a dozen people
that place him

in various spots
around town

at almost identically
the same times.

Somebody seen him
with black pants.

Somebody seen him
with brown pants.

Somebody seen him running,
somebody seen Curtis walking.

So many different things said,

so many different descriptions,

which could have easily been
on different days,

'cause it's the... the route
you travel to work every day.

It's obvious when you look

at the completely contradictory
eyewitness testimony

that, at least,
all but one of them

have to be lying or confused.

He can't be in two places at once.
No.

So, let's identify
those witnesses that remain

and that have any bit
of credibility left.

Three ways you solve
a murder case...

confessions,
always the number one,

followed by physical evidence,
number two,

and number three is always
eyewitness testimony.

Clemmie Fleming is a witness.

She said that
she was on her way

to the Tardy Furniture store
to pay a bill.

Clemmie said she saw
Curtis Flowers

running from the store
that morning.

And it's strange to me that
she said that some time later,

that the day that this
occurred, she didn't jump up

and say she saw Curtis Flowers
at that store.

People are going to
jail for the rest of their life

based on somebody's
recollection of events.

And we all know
short-term memory

is the first thing to go.

Once people lock into a story,
a lot of times,

there's a lot of weight on them
not to change that story.

And we also know the,
"That's the guy.

I'll never forget his face
as long as I live,"

is both the most compelling
evidence to juries... Yes.

...as well as some
of the least reliable.

What time of morning were you
here with Clemmie?

'Round 'bout 8:00 or 9:00
that morning.

So 8:00 or 9:00
that morning,

you were here with Clemmie.Yes, sir.

And she didn't leave.
No, sir.

She stayed here with you...Yes, sir.

...the entire time.
Yes, sir.

And then,
after you find out...

We all jumped in the car
that evening

and went down there.

Well, then, according
to what you're telling me,

her testimony at trial
was totally...

just untruthful.
Yes, sir.

Why would she give
untruthful testimony

at the trial like that?What it was told to me,

they offered her
some money.

And, uh...

I do know that
she never did have to pay

for what she got
from Miss Tardy and them.

Now, was she talking about reward money?
Yes, sir.

Or was she talking about,
just gonna pay her something.It was... they...

It was the reward money,
and I know they...

they never did get the money,
though.

-She never got the reward money?
-No, sir.

When I looked at how
the case was put together...

you know, uh,
that John Johnson,

an investigator for Doug Evans,
and some other people...

he usually had somebody
with him...

they'd go door to door
along the route over here

where they thought Curtis
had... had walked.

They had a flyer
that had $30,000 reward

for anybody providing
evidence

leading to a conviction
in this case.

And so they asked people,
"Did you see Curtis

on the morning of, uh,
the murder?"

Now, many of these people were
being asked three, four,

five, six, nine months
after the fact.

A couple things were happening.

First of all, they realized
that if they said "Yes,"

they had a shot at more money

than they'd ever seen
in one place at...

in their lifetime.

And if they said "No,"

they would make the authorities
unhappy.

When you came forward
and said that

Clemmie's testimony was
not truthful...

Mm-hmm....that she was with you

and she was not where she
said she was... Right.

...they had not tried to confirm
that with you at all.No. No. Nobody.

Did anybody threaten you
or coerce you or... No.

Or try to stop you
from testifying? No.

They just challenged
your testimony in court.

I guess so, yeah.

Clemmie Fleming's
trial testimony says

she saw Curtis running
from Tardy Furniture store,

yet Frederick Woods,
her boyfriend in later years,

said that she admitted to him

that that was not
truthful testimony.

So I think it's time
to talk to Frederick Woods

and see what he can tell us

about that statement
in his affidavit.

The whole conversation between
me and Clemmie was like,

I was like...
"Did you see, uh, Curtis...

Did you really see
Curtis Flowers that day?"

And then she was
like, "No."

I said, "Well, then why you say
that you saw him?"

And then she was like,

"I was trying to get
that money."

And so I was like, "Well,
did you ever get the money?"

And she said, you know,

excuse what I'm saying,
but she said, "No.

Them white folks didn't
give me shit,"

you know,
she said it like that.

That's all I could say.
That's what she said to me.

So as far as under oath
and testimony in the courthouse,

you never...
you never told the story. No, sir.

I ain't never told the story
in the court, no, sir.

-Would you testify?
-Yeah. Yes, sir.

Under oath,
you would testify that...

-that this is what happened?
-Yes, sir.

I find what Frederick had to say
is very compelling.

I'm just...

a little confused as to why
he never testified in court.

When Clemmie testified,

I'm really a little confused
as to why the defense

didn't put him on
as a rebuttal witness.

So, let's take
the second witness,

Porky sees two individuals,
not one,

in front of that store
shortly before the incident.

The state has always
put a lot of weight

on Porky Collins'
testimony.

Porky Collins says he saw
a car, kind of dusty,

in front
of Tardy Furniture.

And there were two men,
one at the hood,

and one on the driver's side
with the door open, arguing.

Did... Did Porky identify
the two people that day?

No, he couldn't see
one at all.

The other, he got a very,
very quick glimpse of.

And gave a very kind of
tentative,

unconvincing, um...
identification of Curtis.

So Porky's shown the lineup,
this lineup.

This is the photo array.Photo array, yeah

Right.
Yeah, and there's Doyle.

Doyle Simpson,
who actually owned the firearm.

Who we know
is Curtis' uncle.

Right. He had a gun
in his glove compartment,

and he reported it missing.

So here's what he says.

"Hey, one and three
resemble the hairline,

but it's further back." Right.

Six...
So he points and said,

"The hairline looks
like this.

He appeared to be
a little darker.

But it looks like him.

Face was also similar shape,
round like this.

Unable to be positive."

And so then he's shown
the second array,

which has Curtis'
picture there.

And, of course,
his head is...

Giant in comparison
to everybody else.

-Exactly.
-He has a giant head.

And then he says, "Hey,"
pointing to Curtis,

"I think that's him."

"Looks like him"
to "I think it's him."

And then he says,
"He's about my height, 5'10",

the complexion's
also right.

I believe that's him.
It looks like him."

Certainly, this photo array
would never pass muster

in any court today.

Curtis is three times
the size of,

say, this guy.

I mean, it's all... If...
-It's suggestive.

Where does your eye go when
you look at this immediately.

It's basically suggestive...
that's what you're saying.

-Yeah.
-Oh, yeah.

In Mississippi, since...

from the time Curtis
got on death row,

- 17 people were executed
in Mississippi. - Mm-hmm.

So... so these are
17 people that he knew

or had had contact with.

The reality in that...
that corrosion of your...

your hope and your spirit
as you actually watch people

that you know be killed,

uh...gotta be horrible...
Just gotta be horrible.

But he... In his mind,
he's innocent,

and he's sitting
in that population.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

It would be helpful
if Curtis had an alibi, though.

It begs the question,
where was he if he wasn't

- in the Tardy Furniture Store,
killing people. - Yeah, not...

Yeah, not having
an alibi...

it just means that
it's not verifiable.

There's no one
to corroborate

whatever he said
he was doing.

What did he say
he was doing?

He didn't have
a great alibi.

He gave a statement as
to what he was doing

during the time of the murders,

but the only people
who were there with him

were, um,
his girlfriend's children.

And so he didn't have
any adult witnesses

to corroborate his alibi.

But he was just sort of,
like, around town.

So he had a story
of where he was,

um, but it was
an unremarkable story,

which sometimes makes
for a bad alibi,

because people don't remember
having seen you

if it's an ordinary morning.

There's a lot
of people to talk to.

I think we gotta take it just
a... a step at a time.

And the most interesting,
I... I still go back

to that
.380 caliber pistol.

- Is Doyle Simpson still alive?
- No.

And his brother Emmett is not,
according to this.

-Both of them are dead?
-Right.

But there's some person
that said Doyle and Emmett

may have been involved
in this crime.

And as I understand it,
Doyle told the police

that he went to his vehicle
at 10:30 or 11:00 that morning.

After the bodies
had been found,

he discovers that his, uh,
vehicle had been burglarized

and that his .380 automatic gun
was gone.

Catherine Snow says
she saw Curtis Flowers... Leaned up against his car.

-Leaned up against Doyle's car.
-Doyle Simpson's car.

Let's see if we can run down
any witnesses about Doyle.

Let's see if there was...
if there's any merit to that.

I think it...
it boiled down to two people...

Doyle Simpson,

and the other possibility, uh,
was Curtis Flowers.

If it weren't
for Doyle Simpson

reporting that his gun
was missing,

the State wouldn't have
been able to come up

with a theory of the...
of the crime.

And that is the...
the big mystery in this case.

For me, has always been

why was Doyle Simpson
so adamant

about telling everybody
that his gun had been stolen?

Because the gun
was not registered,

he lied about
where he had got it

when he first was
questioned about it.

He did not buy it legally.
He just got it from a guy.

So with all the...
those negative consequences,

why did he do this?

He seemed to be
distancing himself

from the crime.

Here's the other thing
that I keep focusing on,

is when that gun
is reported stolen...

okay, by Doyle Simpson.

The 911 call is at 10:21.

And then he's reporting
the gun missing

at, what, 10:30.
Right.

You know, that's not
happenstance.

What a...
What a coincidence.

Yeah, I think it's strange
because you discover

your gun is missing

and a murder just occurred,
you know.

It's as if he knew what Curtis
was gonna do with that gun

- and he had to get it off of him,
you know. - Okay.

So I thought that he should
have been more...

more or less interrogated
a little bit more vigorously.

And we had information
that Doyle worked

at the furniture store
before, too.

Yes.
So he would know.

So, he would know,
like, the set-up of the store...

Yes. ...and how to go into the back,
what the flight paths were.

Yeah, why isn't
he a suspect?

Or an accessory?

Or he could be
the second person.

Okay.

Okay, here we are.

This is the Angelica Plant...
the main parking lot.

It's over here.

Doyle says he was
in the back,

uh, goofing around
with some other guy.

Doyle was only working three
or four hours a day,

I mean, he was...
So he'd come over here,

do a little bit
of janitorial work,

then sometimes he'd just
sort of hang around

and talk to people.

If we're to believe
what everybody says,

Curtis would've walked from here
to the furniture store.

No.

According to the theory
of the crime...

uh, and this is...
this information is...

was provided by, uh,
Patricia Hollman...

She saw Curtis leave.

The theory is that
he walked over here,

stole the gun,
then he went home again.

And then he headed out, uh,
to the Tardy Furniture Store.

And she saw him leave.

It was from her that
the authorities

got their, um...
their timeline

and their route that
he must have followed.

And so they kind of
followed that.

So they... they'd come down
here and ask everybody.

And they got one guy
who lived right over here.

And he said he saw Curtis
walking down here.

But if you walk down
that street,

you can hardly see the road
from his house.

The problem with...
with the eyewitness testimony

is they've got so many
of these people,

so the accumulative weight
of it is pretty strong.

There were dozens of people that
they could pick from,

and so they could craft
whatever story they wanted.

The State cherry-picked,
uh, the witnesses

who could tell the story
that the State wanted to tell.

I mean, the person
that I'm interested in

is Catherine Snow.

I think Catherine
Snow is important,

because she's in that
garment factory, you know,

and she's the one
that allegedly sees

Curtis leaning over
by Doyle's car.

You know, 'cause,
theoretically,

she's an eyewitness
that places him

in close proximity
to the weapon.

We were able
to track her down.

It was on the outskirts
of Winona and...

On the outskirts
of the outskirts.

On the outskirts
of the outskirts.

There's been a little...
a little bit of a controversy

with, uh...with Miss Snow

in that did she really
see Curtis

leaning on that car
that morning.

Hey. Hey!

Quit that!

Hey, quit that!

Miss Snow!

Catherine!

Can you come here
real quick?

She says at about 7:15,

she walks out
of the side entrance,

and when she comes out,
she sees Doyle's car.

And Curtis is leaning
with his right arm

on the car like this.

Use your door, show me how
he's leaning on the car.

Like this?

She says, "Good morning."

Curtis, uh, replies,
gives her a pleasantry.

She walks out, uh...
moves her car, gets out.

And as she's coming back,
Curtis is gone.

The first thing that we lose is
our short-term memory.

Like, I ask you what you eat
for dinner last night,

you probably be able
to tell me.

But if ask you to tell me
what you eat

Saturday night for dinner,

it's a little harder for us
to remember, right?

Is it possible...
Is it possible that

- it wasn't Curtis that
you saw that day? - Oh, baby.

And she stayed on point,
'cause I... I asked her four

or five different ways
the same question.

She said this case
has, uh, had a profound

negative impact on her life.
Hmm.

She has been, uh...
cat-called at grocery stores.

She's been, uh, marginalized
in her community.

Folks in her church
look down on her.

She said, "I just wished I would've
never said anything that day."

"It's not the Tardy family
that's ostracized me,

it's my own family.
It's my own race."

And I leave you
with this.

But if it wasn't him
you saw,

- you gonna have to live
with that. - Mm-hmm.

And that's gonna
haunt you forever.

You believe Revelation,
there's gonna be a rapture.

If you're not right with God,
guess what,

all this other stuff
don't matter.

I'm just trying to get
the truth, you know.

From an evidentiary standpoint,

I feel like it's almost
like a throw-away.

Like, she didn't see him
take a gun out of the car,

so it doesn't really
mean anything

unless it's tied into
this theory that it's Curtis.

Well, right,
but since it is tied into

this theory that
it's Curtis,

i-it's a bad fact.
Yeah.

There's a million honest

and innocent explanations
for it.

But there's also one really
bad explanation for it,

and that's the explanation
that the jury was given

and that juries successively
have... have bought.

Doyle Simpson...

supposedly,
there were people

who backed up his story

that he was, uh, at
the Angelica plant all morning.

But the officer who supposedly
interviewed the folks

didn't take notes

or didn't preserve notes
at any rate,

so we don't have
any names.

So that was all
very unclear.

It's very difficult
to know exactly

what Doyle Simpson was up to
that morning.

Ira and I...

We tracked down Essie.

Essie, of course,
was Doyle's sister.

How you doing, ma'am?

Hey, Miss Essie.

Well, Miss Essie,
we already had some hot dogs

and hamburgers and cake
over here.

They got some
over there.

That ain't why we're here,
though.

I promise, I promise.

She had an interesting
story to tell.

She basically said
that Doyle drove

by her place of employment
that she was working at

when he was supposed to be
at work that morning.

See, I worked at the
nursing home out there.

Yes, ma'am.

And we all be sitting out
on the front porch

-that morning.
-Yes, ma'am.

And I seen his car go up,
through there.

About what time did
you first see his car?

What time was that?
About 10:00 something.

And he went up,
and then he come back down.

And how much time
in between?

Like, uh, 15 minutes
between that.

It wasn't that long
because I...

I couldn't stay out there
on the porch that long. And that's your own brother,

so you wouldn't lie
on your own brother.

-No.
-I know, I know.

Like I told them, no, I ain't
gonna lie for him,

and I ain't gonna lie for Curtis.
Mm-hmm.

And so you're positive
he wasn't at work.

He was not at work.

His sister puts him somewhere
he's not supposed to be.

Uh, she has nothing to gain,
I mean.

And she stuck to that story
all these years.

Right.
And that was his...

the whole reason
law enforcement sort of

moved away from him,
right?

That was his alibi.Because he had an alibi,

He was at work. Right, it was interesting.

He was in Louisiana...

got into some kind
of trouble there.

See, he was dealing with drugs
in Louisiana.

-Mm-hmm.
-Okay.

And, you know,
they tried to kill him.

And, see, them folks
were looking for Doyle,

you know,
when he left Louisiana,

'cause they killed
one person.

And then I'm assuming
they might have

got wind that Doyle
was up here,

because he was dealing with
that stuff down there.

So Ira and I were
talking down there,

hey, could this...
Could there be a link?

You know, you could look
at this scene and say,

"Hey, look, that kind of
looks like a-a hit."

Well, there was
an interesting twist

that we had not
really heard.

I remember Essie told us
about Doyle...

that Doyle disappeared,

like, right after
the homicide.Yes.

Doyle stopped speaking
after that.

We used to be, like,
real close.

And then he just stopped
after all this happened.

Never put it back together
after that incident?

He withdrew.

He withdrew himself
from the family.

Much more scarce.

Basically,
his pre-offense behavior was,

he was around,
accessible,

and then after
the murder,

Doyle was not
his normal self.

That's a consciousness
of guilt.

Yeah, that Doyle...

Doyle's got to have some sort
of involvement in that.

I'm telling you.
There's something.

Who's familiar
with firearms?

Doyle Simpson.

His gun...

He's the one getting
in trouble.

Somebody tried to kill him
because he messed up

some drug money or some drugs
or something.

Who has a demonstrated capacity
to commit violence?

Doyle Simpson.

So, she's got her brother
in that car.

And saw him going
to the scene

and leaving the scene of the crime.
Yeah.

He had that
post-offense behavior.

Yes. I-I put a lot
of emphasis on that.

And, you know,
that's disturbing,

that he all of a sudden,
just stopped coming around.

Hell,
he's not the suspect.

Who was at least,
at one point,

most profoundly
not at work

when he said
he was at work?

Doyle Simpson,
not Curtis Flowers.

I'll tell you, though, man,
the longer I'm down here,

the more I think
Curtis is innocent.

I think there's more evidence
against Doyle Simpson

than there was ever
against Curtis Flowers.