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[ Horn Honks]
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[ Shawn Narrating]
The life of a playwright is tough.
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It's not easy,
as some people seem to think.
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You work hard writing plays,
and nobody puts them on.
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You take up other lines of work
to try to make a living -
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I became an actor -
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and people don't hire you.
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So you just spend your days
doing the errands of your trade.
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Today I'd had to be up
by 7 in the morning...
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to make some
important phone calls.
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Then I'd gone to the stationery store
to buy envelopes. Then to the Xerox shop.
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There were dozens of things to do.
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By 5:00 I'd finally made it
to the post office...
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and mailed off
several copies of my plays...
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meanwhile checking constantly
with my answering service...
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to see if my agent
had called with any acting work.
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In the morning, the mailbox
had just been stuffed with bills.
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What was I supposed to do?
How was I supposed to pay them?
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After all, I was already doing my best.
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I've lived in this city all my life.
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I grew up on the Upper East Side...
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and when I was 10 years old
I was rich, I was an aristocrat...
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riding around in taxis,
surrounded by comfort...
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and all I thought about
was art and music.
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Now I'm 36,
and all I think about is money.
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It was now 7:00...
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and I would have liked nothing better than
to go home and have my girlfriend Debby...
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cook me a nice, delicious dinner.
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But for the last several years
our financial circumstances...
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have forced Debby to work
three nights a week as a waitress.
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After all, somebody had to
bring in a little money.
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So I was on my own.
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But the worst thing of all was that I'd been
trapped by an odd series of circumstances...
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into agreeing to have dinner with a man
I'd been avoiding literally for years.
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His name was André Gregory.
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At one time he'd been
a very close friend of mine...
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as well as my most valued colleague
in the theater.
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In fact, he was the man
who had first discovered me...
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and put one of my plays
on the professional stage.
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When I'd known André, he'd been at the
height of his career as a theater director.
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The amazing work he did with his company,
the Manhattan Project...
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had just stunned audiences
throughout the world.
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But then something
had happened to André.
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He dropped out of the theater.
He sort of disappeared.
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For months at a time, his family seemed
only to know that he was traveling...
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in some odd place like Tibet...
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which was really weird
because he loved his wife and children.
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He never used to like
to leave home at all.
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Or else you'd hear that someone had met him
at a party and he'd been telling people...
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that he talked with trees
or something like that.
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Obviously, something terrible
had happened to André.
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♪♪ [ Piano: Light Jazz ]
53
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The whole idea of meeting him
made me very nervous.
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I mean, I really wasn't up
for that sort of thing.
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I had problems of my own.
I mean, I couldn't help André.
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Was I supposed to be a doctor, or what?
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JV' [ Piano Continues ]
58
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- Hello.
- Hello.
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- Here you go.
- Thank you.
60
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- Yes, sir.
- Ah, sir, my name is Wallace Shawn.
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I'm expected at the table
of André Gregory.
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That table will be a moment, sir.
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If you like,
you may have a drink at the bar.
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[Woman Laughing ]
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[Chattering ]
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- Good evening, sir.
- Uh, could I have a club soda, please?
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I'm sorry, sir.
We only serve Source de Pavilion.
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Oh, that'd be fine, thank you.
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00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,688
When I'd called André, and he'd suggested
that we meet in this particular restaurant...
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I'd been rather surprised, because
André's taste used to be very ascetic...
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00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,329
even though people have always known
that he had some money somewhere.
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I mean, how the hell else could he have
been flying off to Asia and so on...
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and still have been supporting his family?
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The reason I was meeting André was that an
acquaintance of mine, George Grassfield...
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had called me
and just insisted that I had to see him.
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00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:26,330
Apparently, George had been walking his dog
in an odd section of town the night before...
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and he'd suddenly come upon André...
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00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,962
leaning against a crumbling old building
and sobbing.
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00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,520
André had explained to George
that he'd just been watching...
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the Ingmar Bergman movie
Autumn Sonata...
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about 25 blocks away...
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and he'd been seized
by a fit of ungovernable crying...
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when the character played
by Ingrid Bergman had said...
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“I could always live in my art,
but never in my life. ”
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Wally!
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- Wow.
- My God.
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[Wally Chuckling ]
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[ Wally Narrating ] I remember, when I first
started working with André's company...
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I couldn't get over the way the actors
would hug when they greeted each other.
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“Wow. Now I'm really in the theater,”
I thought.
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Well, you look terrific.
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Well, I feel terrible.
[ Laughing ]
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[Wally Laughing ]
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Good evening, sir.
Nice to see you again.
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Thank you. Good evening. Ah, I think
I'll have a spritzer, if I could.
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- Yes, sir.
- Thank you.
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[ Wally Narrating]
I was feeling incredibly nervous.
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I wasn't sure I could stick through
an entire meal with him.
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Great.
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00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:38,883
So we talked about this and that.
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He told me a few things
about Jerzy Grotowski...
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the great Polish theater director...
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who was a friend and almost like
a kind of a guru of André's.
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- [ Indistinct Chattering ]
- He '0' also dropped out of the theater.
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Grotowski was a pretty
unusual character himself.
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At one time, he'd been quite fat, then he'd
lost an incredible amount of weight...
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and become very thin
and grown a beard.
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- Your table is ready, if you feel like sitting down.
- Oh.
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00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,403
- Oh.
- Yes. Thank you.
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[ Wally Narrating ] I was beginning to realize
that the only way to make this evening bearable...
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would be to ask André
a few questions.
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Asking questions always relaxes me.
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In fact, I sometimes think
that my secret profession...
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is that I'm a private investigator,
a detective.
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00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,525
I always enjoy finding out about people.
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Even if they're in absolute agony,
I always find it very... interesting.
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- By the way, is he still thin?
- What?
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Grotowski. Is he still thin?
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Oh. [ Chuckles ] Absolutely.
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Oh, waiter?
Uh, I think we can do without this.
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- Yes, sir.
- Thank you.
122
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What about this one?
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[ Laughing ]
Seven swimming shrimp.
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- Ready for your order?
- Ah, yes.
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00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,724
Uh, the Galuska -
How - How do you prepare that?
126
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[ Wally Narrating ]André seemed
to know an awful lot about the menu.
127
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- Dumpling with raisins, blanched almonds.
- / didn't understand a word of it.
128
00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:13,962
- Very good, I think.
- Hmm.
129
00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,646
No, I-I think I'll have
the Cailles aux Raisin, the quail.
130
00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,166
- Very good.
- Oh, quails! I'll have that as well.
131
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- Two.
- Great.
- Great!
132
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,925
And then I think, to begin with,
the Terrine de Poissons.
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- Yes.
- What is that?
134
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Uh, it's a sort of pâté -
light, made of fish.
135
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- Does it have bones in it?
- [Chuckles] No bones.
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Perfectly safe.
137
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Well, urn - What is
the, urn, Bramborová Polévka?
138
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It's a potato soup.
It's quite delicious.
139
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Oh, well, that's great.
I'll have that.
140
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- Thank you very kindly.
- Thank you very much.
141
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Well.
[ Laughing ]
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When was the last time
that we saw each other?
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[ Wally Narrating ] So we talked for a
while about my writing and my acting...
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and about my girlfriend, Debby.
145
00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,520
And we talked about his wife, Chiquita,
and his two children, Nicolas and Marina.
146
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[ André Laughing]
And I'd stayed back in New York.
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[ Wally] Finally, I got around to asking him
what he'd been up to in the last few years.
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Oh, God. I'm just dying to hear it.
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- Really?
- Really.
150
00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,044
At first, he seemed
a little reluctant to go into it...
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00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,727
so I just kept asking,
and finally he started to answer.
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Conference
on paratheatrical work then.
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And, uh, this must have been
about five years ago...
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and, uh, Grotowski and I were walking
along Fifth Avenue and we were talking.
155
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You see, he'd invited me to come
to teach that summer in Poland.
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You know, to teach a workshop
to actors and directors and whatever.
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And I had told him that I didn't want to come,
because, really, I had nothing left to teach.
158
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I had nothing left to say.
I didn't know anything.
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I couldn't teach anything.
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Exercises meant nothing to me anymore.
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Working on scenes from plays
seemed ridiculous.
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I - I didn't know what to do.
I mean, I just couldn't do it.
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So he said, “Why don't you tell me anything you'd
like to have if you did a workshop for me.
164
00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,242
No matter how outrageous.
And maybe I can give it to you.”
165
00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,608
So I said,
“Well, if you could give me...
166
00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:10,570
“40 Jewish women who speak
neither English nor French -
167
00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,883
“either women who've been in the theater
for a long time and want to leave it...
168
00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:15,849
“but don't know why...
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00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,169
“or young women who love the theater, but
have never seen a theater they could love.
170
00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,601
“And if these women could play
the trumpet or the harp...
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00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:23,682
and if I could work in a forest, I'd come.”
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00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:25,205
[ Laughing 1
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00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,931
A week later, or two weeks later,
he called me from Poland.
174
00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,362
And he said, “Well, 40 Jewish women -
that's a little hard to find.”
175
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,445
But he said, “I do have 40 women.
They all pretty much fit the definition.”
176
00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,966
And he said, “I also have
some very interesting men...
177
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,042
“but you don't have to work with them.
178
00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,090
“These are all people who have in common the
fact that they're questioning the theater.
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00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,164
“They don't all play the trumpet or the harp,
but they all play a musical instrument.
180
00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,368
And none of them speak English.”
181
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,408
And he'd found me a forest, Wally.
182
00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,809
And the only inhabitants of this forest
were some wild boar and a hermit.
183
00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:56,882
So that was an offer I couldn't refuse.
184
00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:58,883
I had to go.
185
00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,885
So, I went to Poland, and it was this
wonderful group of young men and women.
186
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,964
And the forest he had found us
was absolutely magical.
187
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:07,963
You know, it was a huge forest.
188
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:09,969
I mean, the trees were so large...
189
00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,483
that four or five people linking their arms
couldn't get their arms around the trees.
190
00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:18,087
So we were camped out beside
the ruins of this tiny little castle...
191
00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,484
and we would eat around this great stone
slab that served as a sort of a table.
192
00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:25,803
And our schedule was that usually
we'd start work around sunset...
193
00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,770
and then generally we'd work
until about 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning.
194
00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,207
And then, because the Poles
love to sing and dance...
195
00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,602
we'd sing and dance until about
10:00 or 11:00 in the morning.
196
00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:39,242
And then we'd have our food, which
was generally bread, jam, cheese and tea.
197
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,728
And then we'd sleep
from around noon to sunset.
198
00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,008
Now, technically, of course -
199
00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,526
Technically, the situation
is a very interesting one...
200
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,444
because if you find yourself in a forest
with a group of 40 people...
201
00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,206
who don't speak your language,
then all your moorings are gone.
202
00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:57,203
What do you mean exactly?
203
00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,045
Well, what we'd do
is just sit there and wait...
204
00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,329
for someone to have
an impulse to do something.
205
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,688
Now, in a way that's - that's something
like a theatrical improvisation.
206
00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,764
I mean, you know, if you were a director
working on a play by Chekhov...
207
00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,083
you might have the actors playing
the mother, the son and the uncle...
208
00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,642
all sit around in a room and do
a made-up scene that isn't in the play.
209
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,722
For instance, you might say to them...
210
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,043
“All right. Let's say that it's a rainy
Sunday afternoon on Sorin's estate...
211
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,361
and you're all trapped
in the drawing room together.”
212
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,408
And then everyone would improvise -
213
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,883
saying and doing what their character
might say and do in that circumstance.
214
00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,885
Except that in this type of improvisation -
the kind we did in Poland -
215
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,844
the theme is oneself.
216
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,406
So, you follow
the same law of improvisation...
217
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,927
which is that you do whatever your impulse,
as the character, tells you to do...
218
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,765
but in this case,
you are the character.
219
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,242
So there's no imaginary situation
to hide behind...
220
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,403
and there's no other person
to hide behind.
221
00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,410
What you're doing, in fact,
is you're asking those same questions...
222
00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:01,481
that Stanislavsky said the actor should
constantly ask himself as a character:
223
00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:05,087
Who am I? Why am I here?
224
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,767
Where do I come from,
and where am I going?
225
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:13,164
But instead of applying them to a role,
you apply them to yourself.
226
00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,481
- Hmm.
- Or, to look at it a little differently...
227
00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:17,608
in a way, it's like going
right back to childhood...
228
00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:20,650
where a group of children simply come
into a room or are brought into a room -
229
00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,007
without toys - and begin to play.
230
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,801
Grown-ups were learning
how to play again.
231
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,680
So, you would, uh,
all sit together somewhere...
232
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,445
and, uh, you would play in some way.
233
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,643
- But what would you actually do?
- Well, I could give you a good example.
234
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,122
You see, we worked, uh, together
for a week in the city...
235
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,248
before we went off to our forest.
236
00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,681
And of course,
Grotowski was there in the city too.
237
00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,525
I heard that every night,
he conducted something called a beehive.
238
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,523
I loved the sound of this beehive...
239
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,649
so a night or two before we were
supposed to go off to the country...
240
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,803
I grabbed him by the collar, and I said,
“Listen, about this beehive.
241
00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:57,928
“You know, I'd kind of like
to participate in one.
242
00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,805
Just instinctively I feel it would
be something interesting.”
243
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,924
And he said, “Well, certainly.
In fact, why don't you, with your group...
244
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,606
lead the beehive
instead of participating in one?”
245
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,611
You know, I - [ Laughing ] I got very nervous,
you know, and I said, “Well, what is a beehive?”
246
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,371
He said, “Well, a beehive is...
247
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,330
at 8:00 a hundred strangers
come into a room.”
248
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,800
I said, “Yes?” He said,
“Yes, and whatever happens is a beehive.”
249
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,089
I said, “Yes, but what am I supposed
to do?” He said, “That's up to you.”
250
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,926
I said, “No, no. I really don't want to do this.
I'll just participate.”
251
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,721
And he said,
“No, no. You lead the beehive.”
252
00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:32,848
Well, I was terrified, Wally.
253
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,288
I mean, in a way, I felt on stage.
254
00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,681
I did it anyway.
255
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,161
God. Well, tell me about it.
256
00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,330
You see, there was this song
- I have a tape of it. I can play it for you one day.
257
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,609
And it's just unbelievably beautiful.
258
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:54,482
You see, one of the women in our group knew a
few fragments of this song of Saint Francis...
259
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,723
and it's a song in which you
thank God for your eyes...
260
00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,009
and you thank God for your heart,
and you thank God for your friends...
261
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,048
and you thank God for your life.
262
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,124
And it, uh - It repeats itself
over and over again.
263
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,168
And this became our theme song.
264
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,288
I really must play this thing
for you one day...
265
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,763
because you just can't believe that a group
of people who don't know how to sing...
266
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,561
could create something so beautiful.
267
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:23,282
So, I decided that when the people
arrived for the beehive...
268
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,170
that our group would already be there
singing this very beautiful song...
269
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,086
and that we would simply sing it
over and over again.
270
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:35,007
One of the people decided to bring
her very large teddy bear, you know.
271
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,082
Well, she's a little afraid of this event.
272
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,401
And somebody wanted
to bring a - a sheet.
273
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,245
And somebody else wanted
to bring a large bowl of water...
274
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,561
in case people got hot or thirsty.
275
00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:46,927
And somebody suggested
that we have candles -
276
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,130
that there be no artificial light,
but candlelight.
277
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,771
And I remember watching people
preparing for this evening.
278
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,081
Of course, there was no makeup,
and there were no costumes...
279
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,771
but it was exactly the way that people
prepare for a performance.
280
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,049
You know, people sort of taking off
their jewelry and their watches...
281
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,283
and stowing it away
and making sure it's all secure.
282
00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:08,284
And then slowly people arrived,
the way they would arrive at the theater -
283
00:17:08,360 --> 00:17:11,091
in ones and twos and 10s and 15s
and what have you.
284
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,249
And we were just sitting there, and we
were singing this very beautiful song.
285
00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,688
And people started to sit with us
and started to learn the song.
286
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:22,926
Now, there is, of course,
as in any performance or improvisation...
287
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,480
instinct for when things
are gonna get boring.
288
00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,485
So, at a certain point - It may have taken
an hour to get there, an hour and a half-
289
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,610
I suddenly grabbed this teddy bear
and threw it in the air...
290
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,241
at which 140 or 130 people
suddenly exploded.
291
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,324
You know, it was like
a - a Jackson Pollock painting, you know.
292
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,803
Human beings exploded out of this tight
little circle that was singing the song.
293
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,929
And before I knew it,
there were two circles, dancing, you know -
294
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,322
one dancing clockwise,
the other dancing counterclockwise...
295
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,562
with this rhythm
mostly from the waist down.
296
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:58,049
In other words, like an American Indian
dance, with this thumping, persistent rhythm.
297
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,408
[ People Chuckling]
298
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,889
Now, you could easily see,
'cause we're talking about group trance...
299
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,483
where the line between something like this and
something like Hitler's Nuremberg rallies...
300
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,767
is, in a way, a very thin line.
301
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,090
Anyway, after about an hour
of this wild, hypnotic dancing...
302
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,449
Grotowski and I found ourselves sitting opposite
each other in the middle of this whole thing.
303
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,966
And we threw the teddy bear
back and forth.
304
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,606
You know, on one level,
you could say this is childish.
305
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:29,967
And I gave the teddy bear suck,
suddenly, at my breast.
306
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,203
And then I threw the teddy bear to him,
and he gave it suck at his breast.
307
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,681
And then the teddy bear
was thrown up into the air again...
308
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,088
at which there was another explosion
of form into... something.
309
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,004
And these - What was it like?
You know, this is the -
310
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,641
There's something like a kaleidoscope,
like a human kaleidoscope.
311
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:50,009
The evening was made up
of shiftings of the kaleidoscope.
312
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,082
Now, the only other things
that I remember...
313
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,083
other than constantly trying
to guide this thing...
314
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,722
which was always involved with either
movement, rhythm, repetition or song -
315
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:00,928
Or chanting, because,
uh, two people in my group...
316
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,120
had brought musical instruments,
a flute and a drum...
317
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,128
which, of course,
are sacred instruments -
318
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,726
was that sometimes the room
would break up...
319
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,122
into six or seven different things
going on at once.
320
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,124
You know, six or seven
different improvisations...
321
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,046
all of which seemed, in some way,
related to each other.
322
00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:21,488
It was - It was like
a magnificent cobweb.
323
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,004
And at one point, I noticed that Grotowski
was at the center of one group...
324
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,924
huddled around a bunch of candles
that they'd gathered together.
325
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,129
And like a little child
fascinated by fire...
326
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,364
I saw that he had his hand right in
the flame and was holding it there.
327
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,330
And as I approached his group,
I wondered if I could do it.
328
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:45,281
I put my left hand in the flame and I found I
could hold it there for as long as I liked...
329
00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:47,761
and there was no burn
and no pain.
330
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,004
But when I tried to put my right hand in the
flame, I couldn't hold it there for a second.
331
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:57,007
So Grotowski said, “If it burns, try to
change some little thing in yourself.”
332
00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,562
And I tried to do that.
Didn't work.
333
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:05,202
Then I remember a very, very beautiful
procession with the sheet...
334
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,806
and there was somebody
being carried below the sheet.
335
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,963
You know, the sheet was like
some great biblical canopy.
336
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,204
And the entire group was weaving
around the room and chanting.
337
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,365
And then at one point,
people were dancing...
338
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,761
and I was dancing with a girl...
339
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,411
and suddenly our hands began
vibrating near each other -
340
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,403
like this - vibrating, vibrating.
341
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,927
And we went down to our knees,
and suddenly I was sobbing in her arms...
342
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:34,329
and she was sort of cradling me in her
arms, and then she started to cry too.
343
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,801
And then we - then we just
hugged each other for a moment.
344
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,208
And, uh, then we joined the dance again.
345
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,807
And then at a certain point,
hours later...
346
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,850
we returned to the singing
of the song of Saint Francis...
347
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,287
and that was the end of the beehive.
348
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,844
And then, again, when it was over, it was
just like the theater after a performance.
349
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,129
You know, people sort of put on
their earrings and their Wristwatches...
350
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,168
and we went off
to the rail road station...
351
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,370
to drink a lot of beer
and have a good dinner.
352
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,250
Oh, and there was one girl,
who wasn't in our group...
353
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,767
but who just wouldn't leave,
so we took her along with us.
354
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,569
[Chuckling ]
355
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,608
Huh.
356
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,241
God. Well, tell me some of the other things
you did with your group.
357
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,041
Well - Oh, I remember once
when we were in the city...
358
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:30,602
we tried doing an improvisation - you know,
the kind that I used to do in New York.
359
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,081
Uh, everybody was supposed to be
on an airplane...
360
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,970
and they've all learned from the pilot
there's something wrong with the motor.
361
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,010
But what was unusual
about this improvisation...
362
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,766
was that two people who
participated in it... fell in love.
363
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,763
They've, in fact, married.
364
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,571
And when we were -
Yeah, out of fear...
365
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,883
of being on this plane,
they fell in love...
366
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,088
thinking they were going to die
at any moment.
367
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,801
And when we went to the forest,
these two disappeared...
368
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,360
because they understood
the - the experiment so well...
369
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,206
that they realized that to go off together
in the forest was much more important...
370
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,762
than any kind of experiment
the group could do as a whole.
371
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,128
So, uh, about halfway
through the week...
372
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,407
we stumbled into
a clearing in the forest...
373
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,927
and the two of them
were fast asleep in each other's arms.
374
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,765
It was around dawn,
and we put flowers on them...
375
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,969
to let them know we'd been there,
and then we crept away.
376
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,362
And then on the last day of our stay
in the forest, these two showed up...
377
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,330
and they shook me by my hands,
and they thanked me very much...
378
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,131
for the wonderful work
they'd been able to do, you see.
379
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,283
- [ Laughs]
- They understood what it was about.
380
00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:37,807
I mean, that, of course, poses
the question of what was it about.
381
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,607
But it has - has something
to do with living.
382
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,085
And then on the final day
of our stay in the forest...
383
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,731
the whole group did something
so wonderful for me, Wally.
384
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,041
They arranged a christening -
a baptism - for me.
385
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:55,441
And they filled the castle with flowers.
386
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,961
And it was just a miracle of light...
387
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,931
because they had literally set up
hundreds of candles and torches.
388
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,844
I mean, no church
could have looked more beautiful.
389
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,049
There was a simple ceremony, and one
of them played the role of my godmother...
390
00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:10,122
and another played the role
of my godfather.
391
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,881
And I was given a new name.
They called me Yendrush.
392
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,407
And some of the people
took it completely seriously...
393
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,642
and some of them found it funny.
394
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,008
But, uh, I really felt
that I had a new name.
395
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,006
And then we had an enormous feast,
with blueberries picked from the field...
396
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,731
and chocolate someone
had gone a great distance to buy...
397
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,848
and raspberry soup and rabbit stew.
398
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,969
And we sang Polish songs
and Greek songs...
399
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,964
and everybody danced
for the rest of the night.
400
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,168
- Hmm.
- Oh, I have a picture.
401
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,764
See, this was - Let's see.
402
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,684
Oh, yeah.
This was me in the forest. See?
403
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,445
- God!
- That's what I felt like.
404
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,408
[Chuckling ]
405
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,767
- That's the state I was in.
- God.
406
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,651
Yeah. I remember George, uh, told me
he'd seen you around that time.
407
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,041
He said you looked like
you'd come back from a war.
408
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:09,522
Yeah, I remember meeting him. He, uh -
He asked me a lot of friendly questions.
409
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,887
I think I called you up, too,
that summer, didn't I?
410
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:13,883
Huh.
411
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,964
I think I was out of town.
412
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,726
Yeah, well, most people I met thought
there was something wrong with me.
413
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,088
They didn't say that, but I could tell that
that was what they thought.
414
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,288
But...
415
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:31,088
you see, what I think
I experienced... was...
416
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,925
for the first time in my life...
417
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,526
to know what it means
to be truly alive.
418
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,568
Now, that's very frightening...
419
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,166
because with that comes
an immediate awareness of death...
420
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,163
'cause they go hand in hand.
421
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,687
You know, the kind of impulse that led to
Walt Whitman, that led to Leaves of Grass.
422
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,240
That feeling of being connected
to everything...
423
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,641
means to also be connected to death.
424
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,922
And that's pretty scary.
425
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,528
But I really felt as if I were floating
above the ground, not walking.
426
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,246
You know, and I could do things
like go out to the highway...
427
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,245
and watch the lights go from red to green
and think, “How wonderful.”
428
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,642
- [Wally Chuckles ]
- And then one day, in the early fall...
429
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,200
I was out in the country,
walking in a field...
430
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,767
and I suddenly heard a voice
say, “Little Prince.”
431
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,650
Of course, The Little Prince
was a book that I always thought of...
432
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,643
as disgusting, childish treacle.
433
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,008
But still, I thought, “Well, you know,
if a voice comes to me in a field” -
434
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,401
This was the first voice I had ever heard.
435
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,448
Maybe I should go and read the book.
436
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,887
Now, that same morning
I'd got a letter...
437
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,281
from a young woman
who'd been in my group in Poland.
438
00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:34,601
And in her letter she'd written,
“You have dominated me.”
439
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,722
You know,
she spoke very awkward English.
440
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,804
So she'd gone to the dictionary, and she'd
crossed out the word “dominated”...
441
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,804
and she'd said,
“No. The correct word is 'tamed.”'
442
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,089
And then when I went to town and bought
the book and started to read it...
443
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,210
I saw that “taming” was the most
important word in the whole book.
444
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,171
By the end of the book, I was in tears,
I was so moved by the story.
445
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,886
And then I went and tried to write
an answer to her letter...
446
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:58,962
'cause she'd written me a very long letter.
447
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,487
But I just couldn't find the right words,
so finally I took my hand...
448
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,404
I put it on a piece of paper,
I outlined it with a pen...
449
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,324
and I wrote in the center something
like, “Your heart is in my hand.”
450
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,050
Something like that.
451
00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:12,168
Then I went over
to my brother's house to swim...
452
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,641
'cause he lives nearby in the country
and he has a pool.
453
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:16,762
And he wasn't home.
I went into his library...
454
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,889
and he had bought at an auction
the collected issues of Minotaure.
455
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,403
You know, the surrealist magazine? Oh, it's a great,
great surrealist magazine of the '20s and '30s.
456
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,569
And I never - You know,
I consider myself a bit of a surrealist.
457
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,211
I had never, ever seen
a copy of Minotaure.
458
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,601
And here they all were,
bound, year after year.
459
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,048
So, at random,
I picked one out, I opened it up...
460
00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:39,488
and there was a full-page reproduction
of the letter
461
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,642
from Tenniel's Alice In Wonderland.
462
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,042
And I thought, that - Well, you know,
it's been a day of coincidences...
463
00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:47,851
but that's not unusual that the surrealists
would have been interested in Alice...
464
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,962
and I did a play of Alice.
465
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,284
So at random,
I opened to another page...
466
00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:57,887
and there were four handprints.
467
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,884
One was André Breton,
another was André Derain...
468
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,531
the third was André -
I've got it written down somewhere.
469
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,565
It's not Malraux. it's, like, someone -
Another of the surrealists.
470
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,521
All A's, and the fourth
was Antoine de Saint-Exupéry...
471
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,648
who wrote The Little Prince.
472
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,200
And they'd shown these handprints
to some kind of expert...
473
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,130
without saying
whose hands they belonged to.
474
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,040
And under Exupéry's,
it said that he was an artist...
475
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,447
with very powerful eyes...
476
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,366
who was a tamer of wild animals.
477
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,647
I thought,
“This is incredible, you know.”
478
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,486
And I looked back to see
when the issue came out.
479
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,406
It came out on the newsstands
May 12, 1934...
480
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,769
and I was born during the day
of May 11, 1934.
481
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:51,006
So, well, that's what started me on, uh,
Saint-Exupéry and The Little Prince.
482
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,126
Now, of course, today -
483
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,687
today I think there's a very fascistic
thing under The Little Prince.
484
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,001
You know, I-
Well, no, I think there's a kind of-
485
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:12,524
[ Laughing ] I think a kind of S.S.
totalitarian sentimentality in there somewhere.
486
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,365
You know, there's something, you know -
that-
487
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,602
that love of, urn -
488
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:22,129
Well, that masculine love
of a certain kind of oily muscle.
489
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,443
You know what I mean?
I mean, I can't quite put my finger on it.
490
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,161
But I can just imagine
some beautiful S.S. man...
491
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,242
- loving The Little Prince.
- [Wally Laughs]
492
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,971
Now, I don't know why, but there's
something wrong with it. It stinks.
493
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,281
[ High-pitched Laughing ]
494
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,283
Well, didn't George tell me that you were gonna
do a play that was based on The Little Prince?
495
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,569
Hmm. Well, what happened, Wally...
496
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,246
was that fall I was in New York...
497
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,767
and I met this young Japanese
Buddhist priest named Kozan...
498
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,366
and I thought he was Puck
from the Midsummer Night's Dream.
499
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,681
You know,
he had this beautiful, delicate smile.
500
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:00,728
I thought he was the Little Prince.
501
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,242
So, naturally, I decided
to go off to the Sahara desert...
502
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,847
to work on The Little Prince
with two actors and this Japanese monk.
503
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:09,843
You did?
504
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,881
Well, I mean, I was still in a very
peculiar state at that time, Wally.
505
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,362
You know, I would - I would look
in the rearview mirror of my car...
506
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,284
and see little birds
flying out of my mouth.
507
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,609
And I remember always being
exhausted in that period.
508
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,765
I always felt weak. You know, I really
didn't know what was going on with me.
509
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,765
I would just sit out there all alone
in the country for days...
510
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,049
and do nothing but write in my diary.
511
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,964
- And I was always thinking about death.
- Huh.
512
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,042
But you went to the Sahara.
513
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,202
Oh, yes, we went off into the desert...
514
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,408
and we rode through the desert
on camels.
515
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,403
And we rode and we rode.
516
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,926
And then at night we would walk out
under that enormous sky...
517
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,082
and look at the stars.
518
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,721
I just kept thinking about the same things
that I was always thinking about at home -
519
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,882
particularly about Chiquita.
520
00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:03,362
In fact, I thought about
just about nothing but my marriage.
521
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,641
And then I remember
one incredibly dark night...
522
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,963
being at an oasis, and there were
palm trees moving in the wind...
523
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,761
and I could hear Kozan singing
far away in that beautiful bass voice.
524
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,571
And I tried to follow his voice
along the sand.
525
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,563
[ Laughing 1
526
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,644
You see, I thought he had
something to teach me, Wally.
527
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,242
And sometimes
I would meditate with him.
528
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,324
Sometimes I'd go off
and meditate by myself.
529
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,604
You know,
I would see images of Chiquita.
530
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,921
Once I actually saw her growing old...
531
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,651
and her hair turning gray
in front of my eyes.
532
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,726
And I would just wail and yell my lungs out
out there on the dunes.
533
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,685
Anyway,
the desert was pretty horrible.
534
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,683
It was pretty cold.
535
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,242
We were searching for something, but we
couldn't tell if we were finding anything.
536
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,368
You know that once Kozan and I -
537
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,966
we were sitting on a dune,
and we just ate sand.
538
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,480
No, we weren't trying to be funny.
I started, then he started.
539
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,320
We just ate sand and threw up.
That's how desperate we were.
540
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,126
In other words, we didn't know why we were there.
We didn't know what we were looking for.
541
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,283
The entire thing seemed
completely absurd, arid and empty.
542
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,842
It was like, uh -
like a last chance or something.
543
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,287
Huh.
544
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,647
So what happened then?
545
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,530
Well, in those days...
546
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,887
I went completely on impulse.
547
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,123
So on impulse I brought Kozan back
to stay with us in New York...
548
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,767
after we got back from the Sahara,
and he stayed for six months.
549
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,805
- And he really sort of took over the whole family, in a way.
- What do you mean'?
550
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,169
Well, there was certainly a center
missing in the house at the time.
551
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,760
There certainly wasn't a father,
'cause I was always thinking...
552
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,287
about going off to Tibet
or doing God knows what.
553
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,727
And so he taught the whole family
to meditate...
554
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,010
and he told them all about Asia and the
East and his monastery and everything.
555
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,608
He really captivated everybody
with an incredible bag of tricks.
556
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,490
He had literally
developed himself, Wally...
557
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:08,327
so that he could push on his fingers
and rise off out of his chair.
558
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,368
I mean, he could literally go like this -
559
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,681
You know, push on his fingers
and go into like a headstand...
560
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:14,888
and just hold himself there
with two fingers.
561
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,327
Or if Chiquita would suddenly get
a little tension in her neck...
562
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,683
well, he'd immediately have her down on the
floor, he'd be walking up and down on her back...
563
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,809
doing these unbelievable massages,
you know.
564
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,962
And the children found him amazing.
565
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,283
I mean, you know, we'd visit friends
who had children...
566
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,480
and immediately
he'd be playing with these children...
567
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,522
in a way that, you know, we just can't do.
568
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,371
I mean, those children -
just giggles, giggles, giggles...
569
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,887
about what this Japanese monk
was doing in these holy robes.
570
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,930
I mean, he was an acrobat,
a ventriloquist...
571
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,571
a magician, everything.
572
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,608
You know,
the amazing thing was that...
573
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,047
I don't think he had any interest
in children whatsoever.
574
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,407
None at all.
I don't think he liked them.
575
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,562
I mean, you know,
when he stayed with us...
576
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,405
in the first week, really, the kids
were just googly-eyed over him.
577
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,404
But then a couple of weeks later,
Chiquita and I could be out...
578
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,450
and Marina could have flu
or a temperature of 104...
579
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,126
and he wouldn't even go in
and say hello to her.
580
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,682
But he was taking over more and more.
581
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,406
I mean, his own habits
had completely changed.
582
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:18,247
You know, he started wearing these elegant
Gucci shoes under his white monk's robes.
583
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,368
He was eating huge amounts of food.
584
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,922
I mean, he ate twice as much
as Nicolas ate, you know?
585
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,571
This tiny little Buddhist
when I first met him, you know...
586
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,610
was eating a little bowl of milk -
hot milk with rice -
587
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,331
was now eating huge beef.
588
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,931
It was just very strange.
589
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,567
You know, and we had tried working together,
but really our work consisted mostly...
590
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:45,441
of my trying to do these incredibly painful
prostrations that they do in the monastery.
591
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,603
You know, so really we hadn't
been working very much.
592
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:54,050
Anyway, we were out in the country, and
we all went to Christmas mass together.
593
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,361
You know, he was all dressed up
in his Buddhist finery.
594
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,451
And it was one of those - one of those awful,
dreary Catholic churches on Long Island...
595
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,570
where the priest talks about
communism and birth control.
596
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,611
And as I was sitting there in mass, I was
wondering, “What in the world is going on?”
597
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,648
I mean, here I am. I'm a grown man...
598
00:34:10,720 --> 00:34:13,371
and there's this strange person living
in the house, and I'm not working -
599
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,967
You know, I was doing nothing
but scribbling a little poetry in my diary.
600
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,523
And I can't get a job teaching anymore,
and I don't know what I want to do.
601
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:27,164
When all of a sudden a huge creature
appeared, looking at the congregation.
602
00:34:27,240 --> 00:34:31,643
It was about, I'd say, 6'8” -
something like that, you know...
603
00:34:31,720 --> 00:34:34,690
and it was -
it was half bull, half man...
604
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,928
and its skin was blue.
605
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,686
It had violets growing out of its eyelids
and poppies growing out of its toenails.
606
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,481
And it just stood there
for the whole mass.
607
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,001
I mean, I could not make
that creature disappear.
608
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,084
You know, I thought, “Oh, well. You know,
I'm just seeing this 'cause I'm bored.”
609
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:55,371
You know, close my -
I could not make that creature go away.
610
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,365
Okay. Now, I didn't talk with people about
it, because they'd think I was weird...
611
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:04,924
but I felt that this creature
was somehow coming to comfort me...
612
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,328
that somehow
he was appearing to say...
613
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,008
“Well, you may feel low and you might
not be able to create a play right now...
614
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:17,051
“but look at what can come to you
on Christmas Eve. Hang on, old friend.
615
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,010
“I may seem weird to you,
but on these weird voyages...
616
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,048
“weird creatures appear.
617
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:26,045
It's part of the journey.
You're okay. Hang in there.”
618
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,727
By the way, uh, did you ever see...
619
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,486
that play, uh, The Violets are Blue?
620
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,243
No.
621
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,529
Oh, when you mentioned the violets,
it-it reminded me of that.
622
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,570
It-It was about, urn, people...
623
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,723
being, uh, strangled
on a - on a submarine.
624
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,087
Hmm.
625
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:02,001
[ Sighs ] Well, so that was -
[ Chuckles ] that was Christmas.
626
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,765
What happened after that?
627
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,810
- Do you really want to hear about all this?
- Yeah.
628
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,566
Well, around that time...
629
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,480
I was beginning to think about going to India.
And Kozan suddenly left one day.
630
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,928
I was beginning to get into a lot
of very strange ideas around that time.
631
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,130
Now, for example, I'd developed this -
Well, I got this idea which I -
632
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,363
Now, it was very appealing to me
at the time, you know -
633
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,762
which was that I would have a flag,
a large flag...
634
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,207
and that wherever I worked,
this flag would fly.
635
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,609
Or if we were outside, say, with a group, that the
flag could be the thing we lay on at night...
636
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,446
and that somehow, between working on
this flag and lying on this flag...
637
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,443
this flag flying over us...
638
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,491
that the flag would pick up
vibrations of a kind...
639
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,331
that would still be in the flag
when I brought it home.
640
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,563
So I went down to meet this flag maker
that I'd heard about.
641
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,688
And you know, there was
this very straightforward-looking guy.
642
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:02,561
You know, very sweet, really healthy-looking
and everything. Nice big, blond.
643
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,644
And he had a beautiful, clean loft down
in the village with lovely, happy flags.
644
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:09,202
And I was all into The Little Prince, and I
talked to him about The Little Prince...
645
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,171
these adventures and everything, howl needed
the flag and what the flag should be.
646
00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:15,561
He seemed to really connect with it.
647
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,166
So, two weeks later, I came back.
648
00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:21,961
He showed me a flag that I thought
was very odd, you know...
649
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,042
'cause I had, you know -
well, you know...
650
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,488
I had expected something
gentle and lyrical.
651
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,961
There was something about this
that was so powerful...
652
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,008
it was almost overwhelming.
653
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,082
And it did include the Tibetan swastika.
654
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,841
He put a swastika in your flag?
655
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,651
No, it was the Tibetan swastika,
not the Nazi swastika.
656
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:43,087
It's one of the most ancient
Tibetan symbols.
657
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,209
And it was just strange, you know?
658
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,887
But I brought it home,
because my idea with this flag...
659
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,440
was that before I left -
you know, before I left for India...
660
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,360
I wanted several people who were close to me
to have this flag in the room for the night...
661
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,927
to sleep with it, you know, and then in the
morning to sew something into the flag.
662
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,090
So I took the flag into Marina, and I said,
“Hey, look at this. What do you think of this?”
663
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,925
And she said, “What is that? That's awful.”
I said, “It's a flag.”
664
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:08,684
And she said, “I don't like it.”
665
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,003
I said, “I kind of thought you might like
to spend the night with it, you know.”
666
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,050
But she really thought
the flag was awful.
667
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:19,489
So then Chiquita threw this party
for me before I left for India...
668
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,642
and the apartment
was filled with guests.
669
00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:24,803
And at one point Chiquita said,
“The flag, the flag. Where's the flag?”
670
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,885
And I said, “Oh, yeah. The flag.” And I
go and get the flag, and I open it up.
671
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,851
Chiquita goes absolutely white
and runs out of the room and vomits.
672
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,242
So the party just comes to a halt
and breaks up.
673
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,051
And then the next day
I gave it to this young woman...
674
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,726
who'd been in my group in Poland,
who was now in New York.
675
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,322
I didn't tell her anything
about any of this.
676
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,846
At 5:00 in the morning,
she called me up and she said...
677
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,400
“I gotta come and see you right away.”
I thought, “Oh, God.”
678
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,246
She came up, and she said, “I saw things -
I saw things around this flag.
679
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,324
“Now, I know you're stubborn, and I know
you want to take this thing with you...
680
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,449
“but if you'd follow my advice,
you'd put it in a hole in the ground...
681
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,410
and burn it and cover it with earth,
'cause the devil's in it.”
682
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,403
I never took the flag with me.
683
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,929
In fact, I gave it to her, and, uh,
she - she had a ceremony with it...
684
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,480
six months later, in France,
with some friends...
685
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,767
in which, uh, they did burn it.
686
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,128
[ Laughing ] God.
687
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,602
That's really, really amazing.
688
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,851
So, did you ever go to India?
689
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,288
Oh, yes, I-I went to India
in the spring, Wally...
690
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,840
and I came back home
feeling all wrong.
691
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:36,369
I mean, you know, I'd been to India,
and I'd just felt like a tourist.
692
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,284
I'd found nothing.
693
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:44,048
So I was - I was spending, uh, the summer
on Long Island with my family...
694
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,124
and I heard about this community
in Scotland called Findhorn...
695
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,761
where people sang and talked
and meditated with plants.
696
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:56,410
And it was founded by several rather
middle-class English and Scottish eccentrics.
697
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,801
Some of them intellectuals,
and some of them not.
698
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,326
And I'd heard that they'd
grown things in soil...
699
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,609
that supposedly nothing can grow in,
'cause it's almost beach soil...
700
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,890
and that they'd built - not built - they'd
grown the largest cauliflowers in the world...
701
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:10,928
and there are sort of cabbages.
702
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,846
And they've grown trees
that can't grow in the British Isles.
703
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,685
So I went there.
I mean, it is an amazing place, Wally.
704
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,924
I mean, if there are insects
bothering the plants...
705
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,527
they will talk with the insects
and, you know, make an agreement...
706
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,730
by which they'll set aside a special patch
of vegetables just for the insects...
707
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,928
and then the insects
will leave the main part alone.
708
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,002
- Huh.
- Things like that.
709
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,606
And everything they do
they do beautifully.
710
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,490
I mean, the buildings just shine.
711
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,531
And I mean, for instance, the icebox,
the stove, the car - they all have names.
712
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,887
And since you wouldn't treat Helen,
the icebox...
713
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,281
with any less respect
than you would Margaret, your wife...
714
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,291
you know, you make sure that Helen is as clean
as Margaret, or treated with equal respect.
715
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,522
[Wally Giggles ]
716
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:59,128
And when I was there, Wally,
I remember being in the woods...
717
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,888
and I would look at a leaf,
and I would actually see that thing...
718
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,169
that is alive in that leaf.
719
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:10,289
And then I remember just running
through the woods as fast as I could...
720
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,840
with this incredible laugh
coming out of me...
721
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:18,131
and really being in that state, you know,
where laughter and tears seem to merge.
722
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,202
I mean, it absolutely blasted me open.
723
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,363
When I came out of Findhorn,
I was hallucinating nonstop.
724
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,091
I was seeing clouds as creatures.
725
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,766
The people on the airplane
all had animals' faces.
726
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,930
I mean, I was on a trip. It was like being
in a William Blake world suddenly.
727
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:34,968
Things were exploding.
728
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:39,364
So immediately I went to Belgrade,
'cause I wanted to talk to Grotowski.
729
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,728
Grotowski and I got together
at midnight in my hotel room...
730
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,247
and we drank instant coffee
out of the top of my shaving cream...
731
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,450
and we talked from midnight
until 11:00 the next morning.
732
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,966
- God. What did he say?
- Nothing!
733
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,088
I talked. He didn't say a word.
734
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:59,808
And - And then I guess really...
735
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:03,930
the last big experience of this kind
took place that fall.
736
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,008
It was out at Montauk on Long Island...
737
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,687
and there were only about nine
of us involved, mostly men.
738
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,809
And we borrowed Dick Avedon's property
out at Montauk.
739
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,043
And the country out there
is like Heathcliff country.
740
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,726
It's absolutely wild.
741
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,201
What we wanted to do was
we wanted to take, you know -
742
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,647
We wanted to take All Souls' Eve,
Halloween...
743
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:26,041
and use it as a point of departure
for something.
744
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,647
So each one of us prepared
some sort of event for the others...
745
00:42:29,720 --> 00:42:32,530
somehow in the spirit
of All Souls' Eve.
746
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,524
But the biggest event
was three of the people...
747
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,001
kept disappearing
in the middle of the night each night...
748
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,481
and we knew they were
preparing something big...
749
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,562
but we didn't know what.
750
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,850
And midnight on Halloween,
under a dark moon, above these cliffs...
751
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,726
we were all told to gather at the topmost
cliff and that we would be taken somewhere.
752
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:55,169
And we did.
And we waited, and it was very, very cold.
753
00:42:55,240 --> 00:42:58,961
And then the three of them - Helen, Bill
and Fred - showed up wearing white.
754
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,090
You know, something they'd made out of
sheets - looked a little spooky, not funny.
755
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,888
And they took us into the basement of this
house that had burned down on the property.
756
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,085
And in this ruined basement, they had set
up a table with benches they'd made.
757
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:17,326
And on this table they had laid out paper,
pencils, wine and glasses.
758
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:22,691
And we were all asked to sit at the table and
to make out our last will and testament.
759
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,321
You know, to think about and write down
whatever our last words were to the world...
760
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:28,687
or to somebody we were very close to.
761
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,445
And that's quite a task.
762
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,047
I must have been there for about
an hour and a half or so, maybe two.
763
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,522
And then one at a time they would ask
one of us to come with them...
764
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:40,602
and I was one of the last.
765
00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:43,121
And they came for me,
and they put a blindfold on me...
766
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,407
and they ran me through these fields -
two people.
767
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,644
And they'd found a kind of potting shed -
you know, a kind of shed, on the grounds...
768
00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:53,202
a little tiny room
that had once had tools in it.
769
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,363
And they took me down the steps,
into this basement...
770
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:01,321
and the room was just filled
with harsh white light.
771
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,927
Then they told me to get undressed
and give them all my valuables.
772
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,446
Then they put me on a table,
and they sponged me down.
773
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:12,048
Well, you know, I just started flashing
on-on-on death camps and secret police.
774
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,960
I don't know what happened to the other people,
but I just started to cry uncontrollably.
775
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:20,568
Uh, then-then they got me to my feet
and they took photographs of me, naked.
776
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,450
And then naked, again blindfolded,
I was run through these forests...
777
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,803
and we came to a kind of tent made of
sheets, with sheets on the ground.
778
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:28,928
And there were all these naked bodies...
779
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,527
huddling together
for warmth against the cold.
780
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:34,762
Must have been left there
for about an hour.
781
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,969
And then again, one by one,
one at a time, we were led out.
782
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,042
The blindfold was put on...
783
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,806
and I felt myself being lowered
onto something like a stretcher.
784
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:48,807
And the stretcher was carried a long way,
very slowly, through these forests...
785
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:54,683
and then I felt myself
being lowered into the ground.
786
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,481
They had, in fact, dug six graves...
787
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,245
eight feet deep.
788
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,689
And then I felt these pieces of wood
being put on me.
789
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,128
And I cannot tell you, Wally,
what I was going through.
790
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,568
And then the stretcher was lowered
into the grave...
791
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:14,642
and then this wood was put on me...
792
00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:17,200
and then my valuables were put on me,
in my hands.
793
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,090
And they'd taken, you know,
a kind of sheet or canvas...
794
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,686
and they'd stretched about this much
above my head...
795
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,570
and then they shoveled dirt
into the grave...
796
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:31,522
so that I really had the feeling
of being buried alive.
797
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,490
And after being in the grave
for about half an hour -
798
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,848
I mean, I didn't know how long
I'd be in there -
799
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,491
I was resurrected,
lifted out of the grave...
800
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:44,961
blindfold taken off,
and run through these fields.
801
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:49,489
And we came to a great circle of fire,
with music and hot wine...
802
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:51,682
and everyone danced until dawn.
803
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,082
[Chuckling ]
And then at dawn...
804
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,164
to the best of our ability,
we filled up the graves...
805
00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:00,925
and went back to New York.
806
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,721
And that was really the last big event.
I mean, that was the end.
807
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:09,802
I mean, you know, I began to realize...
808
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,565
I just didn't want to do these things
anymore, you know?
809
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:17,123
I felt sort of becalmed, you know,
like that chapter in Moby Dick...
810
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,329
where the wind goes out of the sails.
811
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,165
And then last winter, without, uh,
thinking about it very much...
812
00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:27,529
I went to see this agent I know to tell him
I was interested in directing plays again.
813
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,046
Actually,
he seemed a little surprised...
814
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,647
to see that Rip van Winkle
was still alive.
815
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,203
Mmm.
816
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,328
God.
817
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,289
I didn't know they were so small.
818
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,045
[ André Chuckles ]
819
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,282
Well, you know, frankly...
820
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,204
I'm sort of repelled by the whole story,
if you really want to know.
821
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,681
- What?
- Ah, you know -
822
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:57,728
Who did I think I was, you know?
823
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:02,488
I mean, that's the story of some kind
of spoiled princess, you know.
824
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,881
Who did I think I was,
the Shah of Iran?
825
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:09,761
You know, I really wonder if people such as
myself are really not Albert Speer, Wally.
826
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:14,004
- You know, Hitler's architect, Albert Speer?
- What?
827
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,761
No, I've been thinking a lot about him
recently because, uh, I think I am Speer.
828
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,923
And I think it's time that I was caught
and tried the way he was.
829
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:22,604
What are you talking about?
830
00:47:22,720 --> 00:47:26,611
Well, you know, he was a very cultivated
man, an architect, an artist, you know...
831
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:30,048
so he thought the ordinary rules of life
didn't apply to him either.
832
00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:36,566
I mean, I really feel
that everything I've done...
833
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,211
is horrific, just horrific.
834
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,250
My God. But why?
835
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:46,928
You see - You see, I've seen a lot of death
in the last few years, Wally...
836
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,287
and there's one thing
that's for sure about death -
837
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,840
You do it alone, you see.
That seems quite certain, you see.
838
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:55,083
That I've seen. That the people
around your bed mean nothing.
839
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,130
Your reviews mean nothing.
Whatever it is, you do it alone.
840
00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:02,290
And so the question is, when I get on my
deathbed, what kind of a person am I gonna be?
841
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,244
And I'm just very dubious about the kind
of person who would have lived his life...
842
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,283
those last few years the way I did.
843
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,966
Why should you feel that way?
844
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:14,523
You see, I've had a very rough time
in the last few months, Wally.
845
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,525
Three different people in my family
were in the hospital at the same time.
846
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:20,523
Then my mother died.
847
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,644
Then Marina had something wrong with her back,
and we were terribly worried about her.
848
00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:26,929
You know, so - so, I mean,
I'm feeling very raw right now.
849
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,163
I mean, uh - I mean, I can't sleep,
my nerves are shot.
850
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:32,208
I mean, I'm affected by everything.
851
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,410
You know, la-last week I had this really
nice director from Norway over for dinner...
852
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:38,721
and he's someone
I've known for years and years...
853
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,087
and he's somebody
that I think I'm quite fond of.
854
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:44,323
And I was sitting there just thinking
that he was a pompous, defensive...
855
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,841
conservative stuffed shirt
who was only interested in the theater.
856
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,402
He was talking and talking. His mother
had been a famous Norwegian comedienne.
857
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:54,844
I realized he had said “I remember my mother”
at least 400 times during the evening.
858
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,129
And he was telling story after story
about his mother.
859
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,090
You know, I'd heard these stories
20 times in the past.
860
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,845
He was drinking this whole bottle
of bourbon very quietly.
861
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:06,042
His laugh was so horrible.
862
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,727
You know, I could hear his laugh -
the pain in that laugh, the hollowness.
863
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,241
You know, what being that woman's son
had done to him.
864
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:16,041
You know, so at a certain point I just had
to ask him to leave - nicely, you know.
865
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,602
I told him I had to get up early the
next morning, 'cause it was so horrible.
866
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,081
It was just as if he had died
in my living room.
867
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:26,245
You know, then I went into the bathroom
and cried 'cause I felt I'd lost a friend.
868
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,527
And then after he'd gone,
I turned the television on...
869
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,967
and there was this guy who had
just won the something-something.
870
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,562
Some sports event - some kind of a great big
check and some kind of huge silver bottle.
871
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,120
And he, you know - he couldn't stuff
the check in the bottle...
872
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,369
and he put the bottle in front of his nose
and pretended it was his face.
873
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,681
He wasn't really listening
to the guy who was interviewing him...
874
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:46,320
but he was smiling malevolently at his friends,
and I looked at that guy and I thought...
875
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:50,410
“What a horrible, empty,
manipulative rat.”
876
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,405
Then I thought, “That guy is me.”
[ Laughing ]
877
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,689
Then last night actually, you know,
it was our 20th wedding anniversary...
878
00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:59,967
and I took Chiquita to see
this show about Billie Holiday.
879
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,601
I looked at these show business people who
know nothing about Billie Holiday, nothing.
880
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:07,287
You see, they were really kind of,
in a way, intellectual creeps.
881
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:11,240
And I suddenly had this feeling. I mean, you know, I was
just sitting there, crying through most of the show.
882
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:14,170
And I suddenly had this feeling
I was just as creepy as they were...
883
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,248
and that my whole life
had been a sham...
884
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,164
and I didn't have the guts
to be Billie Holiday either.
885
00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:23,131
I mean, I really feel
that I'm just washed up, wiped out.
886
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,885
I feel I've just squandered my life.
887
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:33,285
André, now, how can you say
something like that?
888
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,328
I mean -
889
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:48,649
Well, you know, I may be in
a very emotional state right now, Wally...
890
00:50:48,720 --> 00:50:51,803
but since I've come back home I've just
been finding the world we're living in...
891
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,326
more and more upsetting.
892
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,324
I mean, last week I went down
to the Public: Theater one afternoon.
893
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,607
You know, when I walked in,
I said hello to everybody...
894
00:50:59,720 --> 00:51:02,610
'cause I know them all, and they all
know me, they're always very friendly.
895
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,526
You know that seven or eight people
told me how wonderful I looked?
896
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:10,161
And then one person - one - a woman
who runs the casting office, said...
897
00:51:10,240 --> 00:51:12,242
“Gee, you look horrible.
Ls something wrong?”
898
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,324
Now, she - You know, we started talking.
Of course, I started telling her things.
899
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:19,405
And she suddenly burst into tears
because an aunt of hers who's 80...
900
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,724
whom she's very fond of, went into the
hospital for a cataract, which was solved.
901
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,327
But the nurse was so sloppy,
she didn't put the bed rails up...
902
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,529
and so the aunt fell out of bed
and is now a complete cripple.
903
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,001
So you know, we were talking
about hospitals.
904
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,368
Now, you know, this woman,
because of who she is -
905
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,807
You know, 'cause this had happened
to her very, very recently.
906
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,362
- She could see me with complete clarity.
- Uh-huh.
907
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,522
She didn't know anything
about what I'd been going through.
908
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,206
But the other people, what they saw
was this tan, or this shirt...
909
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,248
or the fact that the shirt
goes well with the tan.
910
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,209
So they said, “Gee, you look wonderful.”
911
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,602
Now, they're living
in an insane dreamworld.
912
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,968
They're not looking.
That seems very strange to me.
913
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,283
Right, because they just didn't
see anything, somehow...
914
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:04,762
except, uh, the few little things
that they wanted to see.
915
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:12,362
Yeah, you know, it's like what happened
just before my mother died.
916
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:14,881
You know, we'd gone to the hospital
to see my mother...
917
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,406
and I went in to see her...
918
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:22,008
and I saw this woman who looked as bad
as any survivor of Auschwitz or Dachau.
919
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:25,801
And I was out in the hall
sort of comforting my father...
920
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:30,010
when a doctor who was a specialist
in a problem she had with her arm...
921
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:32,924
went into her room
and came out just beaming.
922
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,721
And he said, “Boy, don't we have
a lot of reason to feel great?
923
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:40,401
Isn't it wonderful
how she's coming along?”
924
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:45,407
Now, all he saw was the arm.
That's all he saw.
925
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:49,963
Now, here's another person
who's existing in a dream.
926
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,520
Who, on top of that,
is a kind of butcher...
927
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:54,841
who's committing
a kind of familial murder...
928
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,129
because when he comes out of that room,
he psychically kills us...
929
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,282
by taking us into a dream world...
930
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,728
where we become confused
and frightened...
931
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,162
'cause the moment before,
we saw somebody who already looked dead...
932
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:11,768
and now here comes a specialist
who tells us they're in wonderful shape.
933
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,571
I mean, they were literally
driving my father crazy.
934
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,763
I mean, you know, here's an 82-year-old man
who's very emotional...
935
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,929
and you know, and if you go in one moment,
and you see the person's dying...
936
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:24,004
and you don't want them to die, and then
a doctor comes out five minutes later...
937
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,082
and tells you they're in wonderful shape -
938
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:28,811
I mean, you know, you can go crazy.
939
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,646
- Yeah. I know what you mean.
- I mean, the doctor didn't see my mother.
940
00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:35,246
The people at the Public Theater
didn't see me.
941
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,369
I mean, we're just walking around
in some kind of fog.
942
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:42,570
I think we're all in a trance.
We're walking around like zombies.
943
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:46,326
I don't - I don't think we're even aware
of ourselves or our own reaction to things.
944
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,244
We - We're just going around all day
like unconscious machines...
945
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:52,449
and meanwhile there's all of this rage
and worry and uneasiness...
946
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:54,648
just building up
and building up inside us.
947
00:53:54,720 --> 00:53:57,041
That's right. It just builds up, uh...
948
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:00,442
and then it just leaps out
inappropriately.
949
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,605
I mean, I remember
when I was, uh, acting in this play...
950
00:54:04,720 --> 00:54:06,688
based on The Master and Margarita
by Bulgakov.
951
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,161
And I was playing the part of the cat.
952
00:54:09,240 --> 00:54:11,686
But they had trouble, uh,
making up my cat suit...
953
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,401
so I didn't get it delivered to me
till the night of the first performance.
954
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:19,127
Particularly the head - I mean,
I'd never even had a chance to try it on.
955
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,761
And about four of my fellow actors
actually came up to me...
956
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,446
and they said these things
which I just couldn't help thinking...
957
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:27,522
were attempts to destroy me.
958
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:31,446
You know, one of them said, uh,
“Oh, well, now that head...
959
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,046
“will totally change your hearing
in the performance.
960
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,203
“You may hear everything
completely differently...
961
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:39,521
“and it may be very upsetting.
962
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:42,843
“Now, I was once in a performance
where I was wearing earmuffs...
963
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:46,561
and I couldn't hear anything
anybody said.”
964
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:50,361
And then another one said, “Oh, you know,
whenever I wear even a hat on stage...
965
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,442
I tend to faint.”
966
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,444
I mean, those remarks
were just full of hostility...
967
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,047
because, I mean, if I'd listened to those
people, I would have gone out there on stage...
968
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,930
and I wouldn't have been able to hear
anything, and I would have fainted.
969
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:03,968
But the hostility
was completely inappropriate...
970
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,042
because, in fact,
those people liked me.
971
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,567
I mean, that hostility was just
some feeling that was, you know...
972
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:12,530
left over from
some previous experience.
973
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:16,002
Because somehow
in our social existence today...
974
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:19,323
we're only allowed to
express our feelings, uh...
975
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:21,562
weirdly and indirectly.
976
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:24,086
If you express them directly,
everybody goes crazy.
977
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:27,369
Well, did you express your feelings
about what those people said to you?
978
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:31,490
No. [Chuckles] I mean, I didn't even know
what I felt till I thought about it later.
979
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:34,962
And I mean, at the most, you know,
in a situation like that, uh...
980
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,281
even if I had known what I felt...
981
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,091
I might say something,
if I'm really annoyed...
982
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:44,006
like, uh, “Oh, yeah.
Well, that's just fascinating...
983
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:47,801
and, uh, I probably will
faint tonight, just as you did.”
984
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,770
I do just the same thing myself.
985
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:54,208
We can't be direct, so we end up
saying the weirdest things.
986
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,489
I mean, I remember a night. It was
a couple of weeks after my mother died.
987
00:55:57,560 --> 00:55:59,483
And I was in pretty bad shape.
988
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:01,722
And I had dinner with three
relatively close friends...
989
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:03,768
two of whom had
known my mother quite well...
990
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:06,451
and all three of whom
had known me for years.
991
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:09,330
You know that we went through that
entire evening without my being able to...
992
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:11,368
for a moment,
get anywhere near what-
993
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:13,681
Not that I wanted to sit
and have this dreary evening...
994
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,650
in which I was talking about all this pain
that I was going through and everything.
995
00:56:16,720 --> 00:56:18,370
Really, not at all.
996
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:20,647
But the fact that nobody could say...
997
00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:23,564
“Gee, what a shame about your mother”
or “How are you feeling?”
998
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:27,002
It was just as if nothing had happened. They
were all making these jokes and laughing.
999
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,082
I got quite crazy, as a matter of fact.
1000
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:31,731
One of these people mentioned a certain
man whom I don't like very much...
1001
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,646
and I started screeching about how he had
just been found in the Bronx River...
1002
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:39,890
and his penis had dropped off from
gonorrhea, and all kinds of insane things.
1003
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:44,682
And later, when I got home, I realized I'd
just been desperate to break through this ice.
1004
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:46,285
Yeah.
1005
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:50,410
I mean, do you realize, Wally, if you brought
that situation into a Tibetan home -
1006
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:53,484
That'd be just so far out. I mean,
they wouldn't be able to understand it.
1007
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:56,006
That would be simply -
simply so weird, Wally.
1008
00:56:56,120 --> 00:57:00,011
If four Tibetans came together, and tragedy
had just struck one of the ones...
1009
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:04,722
and they spent the whole evening going -
[ Loud Laughing ]
1010
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,041
I mean, you know,
Tibetans would have looked at that...
1011
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:10,169
and would have thought that was
the most unimaginable behavior.
1012
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:12,647
- But for us, that's common behavior.
- Mm-hmm.
1013
00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:16,486
I mean, really, the - the Africans would have
probably put their spears into all four of us...
1014
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:18,528
'cause it would have driven them crazy.
1015
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,126
They would have thought we were
dangerous animals or something like that.
1016
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:25,040
- Right.
- I mean, that's absolutely abnormal behavior.
1017
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:27,282
Is everything all right, gentlemen?
1018
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:29,283
- Great.
- Yeah.
1019
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:35,681
But those are
typical evenings for us.
1020
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:39,890
I mean, we go to dinners and parties
like that all the time.
1021
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:43,043
These evenings are really
like sort of sickly dreams...
1022
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,566
because people are talking in symbols.
1023
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:49,924
Everyone is sort of floating through this
fog of symbols and unconscious feelings.
1024
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:52,401
No one says what they're
really thinking about.
1025
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:57,486
Then people will start making these jokes
that are really some sort of secret code.
1026
00:57:57,560 --> 00:57:59,961
Right. Well, what often happens
in some of these evenings...
1027
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:04,483
is that these really crazy little fantasies
will just start being played with, you know...
1028
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,689
and everyone will be talking at once
and sort of saying...
1029
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:11,651
“Hey, wouldn't it be great if Frank Sinatra
and Mrs. Nixon and blah-blah-blah...
1030
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,246
were in such and such a situation?”
1031
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,722
You know, always with famous people,
and always sort of grotesque.
1032
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:20,406
Or people will be talking about
some horrible thing...
1033
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:25,008
like - like, uh, the death of that girl
in the car with Ted Kennedy...
1034
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:27,560
and they'll just be
roaring with laughter.
1035
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:30,086
I mean, it's really amazing.
It's just unbelievable.
1036
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:35,291
That's the only way anything is expressed,
through these completely insane jokes.
1037
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:38,603
I mean, I think that's why I never
understand what's going on at a party.
1038
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:41,889
I'm always completely confused.
1039
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:46,727
You know, uh, Debby once said,
after one of these New York evenings...
1040
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:49,121
she thought she'd traveled
a greater distance...
1041
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:52,682
just by journeying from her origins
in the suburbs of Chicago...
1042
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:54,762
to that New York evening...
1043
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,889
than her grandmother had traveled
in, uh, making her way...
1044
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:00,645
from the steppes of Russia
to the suburbs of Chicago.
1045
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:03,041
- I think that's right.
- [Wally Chuckles ]
1046
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:06,811
You know, it may - it may be, Wally,
that one of the reasons...
1047
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:08,803
that we don't know
what's going on...
1048
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:11,804
is that when we're there at a party,
we're all too busy performing.
1049
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:13,166
Uh-huh.
1050
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:16,687
That was one of the reasons
that, uh, Grotowski gave up the theater.
1051
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:20,924
He just felt that people in their lives now
were performing so well...
1052
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:23,685
that performance in the theater
was sort of superfluous...
1053
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:25,683
and, in a way, obscene.
1054
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:28,001
Huh.
1055
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:30,811
Isn't it amazing
how often a doctor...
1056
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,605
will live up to our expectation
of how a doctor should look?
1057
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:37,207
When you see a terrorist on television,
he looks just like a terrorist.
1058
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:39,806
I mean, we live in a world
in which fathers...
1059
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:42,087
or single people, or artists...
1060
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:44,367
are all trying to live up
to someone's fantasy...
1061
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:48,490
of how a father, or a single person,
or an artist should look and behave.
1062
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:51,325
They all act as if they know exactly how
they ought to conduct themselves...
1063
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:53,363
at every single moment...
1064
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:55,522
and they all seem totally self-confident.
1065
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,080
Of course, privately people
are very mixed up about themselves.
1066
00:59:58,160 --> 00:59:59,366
Yeah.
1067
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:01,647
They don't know what they should
be doing with their lives.
1068
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:03,881
- They're reading all these self-help books.
- Oh, God!
1069
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,491
I mean, those books are just so touching,
because they show...
1070
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:09,484
how desperately curious we all are
to know how all the others of us...
1071
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:11,528
are really getting on in life...
1072
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:14,365
even though, by performing
these roles all the time...
1073
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:17,444
we're just hiding the reality of ourselves
from everybody else.
1074
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:20,126
I mean, we live in such
ludicrous ignorance of each other.
1075
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:22,407
We usually don't know
the things we'd like to know...
1076
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:24,482
even about our supposedly
closest friends.
1077
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:26,483
I mean - I mean, you know...
1078
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:29,120
suppose you're going through
some kind of hell in your own life.
1079
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:32,562
Well, you would love to know if your
friends have experienced similar things.
1080
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:34,642
But we just don't dare to ask each other.
1081
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:37,121
No. It would be like asking
your friend to drop his role.
1082
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:40,647
I mean, we just put no value at all
on perceiving reality.
1083
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:44,361
I mean, on the contrary, this incredible
emphasis that we all place now...
1084
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:46,408
on our so-called careers...
1085
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:51,122
automatically makes perceiving reality
a very low priority...
1086
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:55,888
because if your life is organized around
trying to be successful in a career...
1087
01:00:55,960 --> 01:01:01,046
well, it just doesn't matter what
you perceive or what you experience.
1088
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:04,408
You can really sort of shut your mind off
for years ahead, in a way.
1089
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:07,404
You can sort of
turn on the automatic pilot.
1090
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:10,882
You know, just the way your mother's doctor
had on his automatic pilot...
1091
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:13,167
when he went in
and he looked at the arm...
1092
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:15,720
and he totally failed
to perceive anything else.
1093
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:19,771
That's right. Our - Our minds are just
focused on these goals and plans...
1094
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:21,808
which in themselves
are not reality.
1095
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:25,282
No. Goals and plans are not-
1096
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:29,729
I mean, they're - they're fantasy.
They're part of a dream life.
1097
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:33,361
I mean, you know, it always just
does seem so ridiculous, somehow...
1098
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:37,126
that everybody has to have
his little - his little goal in life.
1099
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:41,489
I mean, it's so absurd, in a way, when you
consider that it doesn't matter which one it is.
1100
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:44,040
Right. And because people's
concentration is on their goals...
1101
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:47,124
in their life
they just live each moment by habit.
1102
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:50,363
Really, like the Norwegian telling
the same stories over and over again.
1103
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:53,011
- Mm-hmm.
- Life becomes habitual.
1104
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:55,287
And it is today.
1105
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:57,488
I mean, very few things happen now
like that moment...
1106
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:00,325
when Marlon Brando sent the Indian woman
to accept the Oscar...
1107
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:02,323
and everything went haywire.
1108
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:04,846
Things just very rarely
go haywire now.
1109
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:07,969
And if you're just operating by habit...
1110
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:10,850
then you're not really living.
1111
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:13,605
I mean, you know, in Sanskrit,
the root of the verb “to be”...
1112
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:16,001
is the same as “to grow”
or “to make grow.”
1113
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:18,003
Huh.
1114
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:21,328
[ Woman Laughing ]
1115
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:23,323
- Do you know about Roc?
- Hmm'?
1116
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:25,482
[ Chuckling ] Oh, well.
1117
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:27,562
Roc was a wonderful man.
1118
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:29,967
He was one of the founders
of Findhorn...
1119
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:34,329
and he was one of Scotland's - well,
he was Scotland's greatest mathematician...
1120
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:36,926
and he was one of the century's
great mathematicians.
1121
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:42,166
And he prided himself on the fact that
he had no fantasy life, no dream life -
1122
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:44,891
nothing to stand be -
no imaginary life -
1123
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:49,363
nothing to stand between him
and the direct perception of mathematics.
1124
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:53,485
And one day when he was in his mid-50s, he
was walking in the gardens of Edinburgh...
1125
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:56,404
and he saw a faun.
1126
01:02:56,480 --> 01:03:00,087
The faun was very surprised because fauns
have always been able to see people...
1127
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:02,845
but you know,
very few people ever see them.
1128
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:05,571
You know, uh,
those little imaginary creatures.
1129
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:07,563
- Not a deer.
- Oh.
1130
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:10,928
- You call them fauns, don't you?
- I thought a fawn was a baby deer.
1131
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:14,249
Yeah, well, there's a deer that's called a
fawn, but these are like those little imagi -
1132
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:16,891
- Oh! The kind that Debussy -
- Yes. Right.
1133
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:20,407
Well, so he got to know the faun,
and he got to know other fauns...
1134
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:22,767
and a series of conversations began...
1135
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:25,684
and more and more fauns would
come out every afternoon to meet him.
1136
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:27,683
And he'd have talks with the fauns.
1137
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:31,088
Then one day, after a while, when, you
know, they'd really gotten to know him...
1138
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:33,680
they asked him
if he would like to meet Pan...
1139
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:35,888
because Pan would like to meet him.
1140
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:38,042
And of course,
Pan was afraid of terrifying him...
1141
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:40,726
because he knew
of the Christian misconception...
1142
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:44,407
which portrayed Pan as an evil creature,
which he's not.
1143
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:47,450
But Roc said he would love to meet Pan,
and so they met...
1144
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:50,251
and Pan indirectly sent him
on his way on a journey...
1145
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:54,689
in which he met the other people
who began Findhorn.
1146
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:57,889
But Roc used to practice
certain exercises -
1147
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:01,089
like, uh, for instance,
if he were right-handed...
1148
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:03,481
all today he would do everything
with his left hand.
1149
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:06,325
All day - eating, writing,
everything - opening doors...
1150
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:09,165
in order to break the habits of living.
1151
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:11,851
Because the great danger,
he felt, for him...
1152
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:15,242
was to fall into a trance,
out of habit.
1153
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:19,848
He had a whole series of very simple
exercises that he had invented...
1154
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:24,124
just to keep
seeing, feeling, remembering.
1155
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:26,168
Because you have to learn now.
1156
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:29,244
It didn't used to be necessary,
but today you have to learn something...
1157
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:31,402
like, uh, are you really hungry...
1158
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:34,563
or are you just stuffing your face -
[ Laughing ]
1159
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:36,887
Because that's what you do,
out of habit?
1160
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:39,611
I mean, you can afford to do it,
so you do it...
1161
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:41,648
whether you're hungry or not.
1162
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:44,564
You know, if you go to
the Buddhist Meditation Center...
1163
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:47,086
they make you taste
each bite of your food...
1164
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:50,846
so it takes two hours -
it's horrible - to eat your lunch.
1165
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:54,367
But you're conscious
of the taste of your food.
1166
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:57,683
If you're just eating out of habit,
then you don't taste the food...
1167
01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:00,650
and you're not conscious of the reality
of what's happening to you.
1168
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:02,802
You enter the dream world again.
1169
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:06,362
Now, do you think maybe
we live in this dream world...
1170
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:09,842
because we do so many things every day
that affect us in ways...
1171
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:13,322
that somehow
we're just not aware of?
1172
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:17,769
I mean, you know, I was thinking,
urn, last Christmas...
1173
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:21,003
Debby and I were given
an electric blanket.
1174
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:25,847
I can tell you that it is just
such a marvelous advance...
1175
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:30,528
- over our old way of life, and it is just great.
- [André Chuckling ]
1176
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:34,002
But, uh, it is quite different
from not having an electric blanket...
1177
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:37,004
and I sometimes sort of wonder,
well, what is it doing to me?
1178
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:40,681
I mean, I sort of feel, uh,
I'm not sleeping quite in the same way.
1179
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:42,683
[ Chuckles ]
No, you wouldn't be.
1180
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:45,684
I mean, uh, and my dreams
are sort of different...
1181
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:48,604
and I feel a little bit different
when I get up in the morning.
1182
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:53,202
I wouldn't put an electric blanket on
for anything.
1183
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:58,047
First, I'd be worried I might get electrocuted.
No, I don't trust technology.
1184
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:01,761
But I mean, the main thing, Wally, is
that I think that that kind of comfort...
1185
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:04,969
just separates you from reality
in a very direct way.
1186
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:07,811
- You mean -
- I mean, if you don't have that electric blanket...
1187
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:10,611
and your apartment is cold
and you need to put on another blanket...
1188
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:14,127
or go into the closet and pile up coats
on top of the blankets you have...
1189
01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:16,402
well, then you know it's cold.
1190
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:18,721
And that sets up a link of things.
1191
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:22,361
You have compassion for the per -
Well, is the person next to you cold?
1192
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:24,568
Are there other people in the world
who are cold?
1193
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,120
What a cold night!
I like the cold.
1194
01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:30,647
My God, I never realized. I don't want a blanket.
It's fun being cold.
1195
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:34,088
I can snuggle up against you even more
because it's cold.
1196
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:36,766
All sorts of things occur to you.
1197
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:40,208
Turn on that electric blanket,
and it's like taking a tranquilizer...
1198
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:42,760
or it's like being lobotomized
by watching television.
1199
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:44,842
I think you enter
the dream world again.
1200
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:49,649
I mean, what does it do to us, Wally,
living in an environment...
1201
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:53,770
where something as massive
as the seasons, or winter, or cold...
1202
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:55,968
don't in any way affect us?
1203
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:58,042
I mean, we're animals, after all.
1204
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:00,043
I mean, what does that mean?
1205
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:03,289
I think that means that instead
of living under the sun...
1206
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:06,045
and the moon and the sky
and the stars...
1207
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:08,964
we're living in a fantasy world
of our own making.
1208
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:12,362
Yeah, but I mean, I would never
give up my electric blanket, André.
1209
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:15,250
I mean, because New York
is cold in the winter.
1210
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:18,529
I mean, our apartment is cold.
It's a difficult environment.
1211
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:20,762
I mean, our lives
are tough enough as it is.
1212
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:24,362
I'm not looking for ways to get rid of the
few things that provide relief and comfort.
1213
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:27,284
I mean, on the contrary,
I'm looking for more comfort...
1214
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:29,727
because, uh, the world is very abrasive.
1215
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:32,201
I mean, uh,
I'm trying to protect myself...
1216
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:35,921
because, really, there are these abrasive
beatings to be avoided everywhere you look.
1217
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:40,005
But, Wally, don't you - don't you see
that comfort can be dangerous?
1218
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:43,323
I mean, you like to be comfortable,
and I like to be comfortable too...
1219
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:46,882
but comfort can lull you
into a dangerous tranquillity.
1220
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:51,010
I mean, my mother knew
a woman, Lady Hatfield...
1221
01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:53,208
who was one of the richest women
in the world...
1222
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:56,568
and she died of starvation
because all she would eat was chicken.
1223
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:59,484
I mean, she just liked chicken, Wally,
and that was all she would eat.
1224
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:02,643
And actually her body was starving,
but she didn't know it...
1225
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:06,321
'cause she was quite happy eating her
chicken, and so she finally died.
1226
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:10,610
See, I honestly believe
that we're all like Lady Hatfield now.
1227
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:14,651
We're having a lovely, comfortable time with
our electric blankets and our chicken...
1228
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:18,611
and meanwhile we're starving because we're
so cut off from contact with reality...
1229
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:22,526
that we're not getting any real sustenance,
'cause we don't see the world.
1230
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:24,523
We don't see ourselves.
1231
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:26,728
We don't see how our actions
affect other people.
1232
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,929
Have you read Martin Buber's book
On Hasidism?
1233
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:32,247
- No.
- Well, here's a view of life.
1234
01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:35,290
I mean, he talks about the belief
of the Hasidic Jews...
1235
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:37,283
that there are spirits chained
in everything.
1236
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:40,284
There are spirits chained in you.
There are spirits chained in me.
1237
01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:42,761
Well, there are spirits chained
in this table.
1238
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:47,767
And that prayer is the action of liberating
these enchained embryo-like spirits...
1239
01:08:47,840 --> 01:08:49,888
and that every action of ours in life...
1240
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:53,043
whether it's, uh,
doing business, or making love...
1241
01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:55,088
or having dinner together,
or whatever -
1242
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:57,811
that every action of ours
should be a prayer...
1243
01:08:57,880 --> 01:08:59,723
a sacrament in the world.
1244
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:02,406
Now, do you think we're living like that?
1245
01:09:02,480 --> 01:09:04,528
Why do you think
we're not living like that?
1246
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:07,604
I think it's because if we allowed
ourselves to see what we do every day...
1247
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:09,682
we might just find it too nauseating.
1248
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:11,728
I mean, the way we treat other people.
1249
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:15,407
You know, every day, several times a day,
I walk into my apartment building.
1250
01:09:15,480 --> 01:09:19,007
The doorman calls me Mr. Gregory,
and I call him Jimmy.
1251
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:22,209
Already, what's the difference
between that...
1252
01:09:22,280 --> 01:09:25,090
and the Southern plantation owner
who's got slaves?
1253
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:28,209
You see, I think that an act of murder
is committed in that moment...
1254
01:09:28,280 --> 01:09:30,248
when I walk into that building.
1255
01:09:30,320 --> 01:09:34,530
Because here's a dignified, intelligent
man - a man of my own age -
1256
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:38,207
and when I call him Jimmy, then he
becomes a child, and I'm an adult...
1257
01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:40,601
because I can buy my way
into the building.
1258
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:43,331
Right. That's right.
1259
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:47,291
I mean, my God,
when I was a Latin teacher...
1260
01:09:47,360 --> 01:09:49,488
I mean, people used to treat me -
1261
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:52,370
I mean, uh, you know,
if I would go to a party...
1262
01:09:52,440 --> 01:09:55,330
of professional or literary people...
1263
01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:58,961
I mean, I was just treated, uh,
in the nicest sense of the word...
1264
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:00,644
uh, like a dog.
1265
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:02,768
I mean, in other words,
there was no question...
1266
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:06,521
of my being able to participate on an equal
basis in a conversation with people.
1267
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:09,080
I mean, you know, I'd occasionally
have conversations with people...
1268
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:11,686
but then, uh,
when they asked what I did...
1269
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:14,240
which would always happen
after about five minutes...
1270
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:16,448
uh, you know, their faces -
1271
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:20,360
Even if they were enjoying the conversation, or
they were flirting with me, or whatever it was -
1272
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:23,847
their faces would just have that expression
just like the portcullis crashing down.
1273
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:27,322
You know, those medieval gates.
They would just walk away.
1274
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:30,768
I mean, I literally lived like a dog.
1275
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:34,401
And I mean, uh, when Debby was
working as a secretary, you know...
1276
01:10:34,480 --> 01:10:38,087
if she would tell people what she did,
they would just go insane.
1277
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:40,481
I mean, it would be just
as if she'd said, uh...
1278
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:45,407
“Oh, well, I've been serving a life sentence
recently, uh, for child murdering.”
1279
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:50,610
I mean, my God, you know, when you talk
about our attitudes toward other people...
1280
01:10:51,920 --> 01:10:53,922
I mean, I think of myself...
1281
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:58,005
as just a very decent,
good person, you know...
1282
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:00,447
just because I think
I'm reasonably friendly...
1283
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:02,761
to most of the people
I happen to meet every day.
1284
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:05,525
I mean, I really think
of myself quite smugly.
1285
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:08,729
I just think I'm a perfectly nice guy,
uh, you know...
1286
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:11,883
so long as I think of the world
as consisting of, you know...
1287
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:14,770
just the small circle of the people
that I know as friends...
1288
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:17,844
or the few people that we know in this
little world of our little hobbies -
1289
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:19,849
the theater or whatever it is.
1290
01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:23,043
And I'm really quite self-satisfied.
I'm just quite happy with myself.
1291
01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:25,248
I just have no complaint about myself.
1292
01:11:25,320 --> 01:11:27,322
I mean, you know, let's face it.
1293
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:31,200
I mean, there's a whole enormous world out
there that I just don't ever think about.
1294
01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:35,569
I certainly don't take responsibility
for how I've lived in that world.
1295
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:38,405
I mean, you know, if I were actually
to sort of confront the fact...
1296
01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:40,682
that I'm sort of sharing this stage...
1297
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:43,240
with-with-with this starving person
in Africa somewhere...
1298
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:45,886
well, I wouldn't feel so great
about myself.
1299
01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:50,682
So naturally I just - I just blot all those
people right out of my perception.
1300
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:53,889
So, of course -
of course, I'm ignoring...
1301
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:57,328
a whole section of the real world.
1302
01:11:57,400 --> 01:11:59,846
But frankly, you know...
1303
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:04,324
when I write a play, in a way, one of the
things I guess I think I'm trying to do...
1304
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:07,609
is I'm trying to bring myself up
against some little bits of reality...
1305
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:10,809
and I'm trying to share that, uh,
with an audience.
1306
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:15,164
I mean - I mean,
of course we all know, uh...
1307
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:17,766
the theater is, uh,
in terrible shape today.
1308
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:22,249
I mean, uh - I mean, at least a few years ago
people who really cared about the theater...
1309
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:24,687
used to say, “The theater is dead.”
1310
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:27,684
And now everybody's redefined
the theater in such a trivial way...
1311
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:29,728
that, I mean - I mean, God...
1312
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:33,964
I know people who are involved with
the theater who go to see things now that-
1313
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:36,441
I mean, a few years ago
these same people...
1314
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:39,410
would have just been embarrassed
to have even seen some of these plays.
1315
01:12:39,480 --> 01:12:42,051
I mean, they would have just shrunk,
you know, just in horror...
1316
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:44,327
at the superficiality of these things.
1317
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:47,006
But now they say,
“Oh, that was pretty good.”
1318
01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:49,082
it's just incredible.
1319
01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:52,289
And I really just find that attitude
unbearable...
1320
01:12:52,360 --> 01:12:56,160
because I really do think the theater
can do something very important.
1321
01:12:56,240 --> 01:13:01,121
I mean, I do think the theater can help
bring people in contact with reality.
1322
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:05,888
Now, now, you may not feel that at all.
You may just find that totally absurd.
1323
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:10,210
Yeah, but, Wally,
don't you see the dilemma?
1324
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:14,325
You're not taking into account
the period we're living in.
1325
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:16,562
I mean, of course that's what
the theater should do.
1326
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:18,608
I mean, I've always felt that.
1327
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:22,082
You know, when I was a young director,
and I directed the Bacchae at Yale...
1328
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:25,448
my impulse, when Pentheus has been
killed by his mother and the Furies...
1329
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:28,171
and they pull the tree back,
and they tie him to the tree...
1330
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:31,483
and fling him into the air, and he flies
through space and he's killed...
1331
01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:34,530
and they rip him to shreds
and I guess cut off his head -
1332
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:38,286
my impulse was that the thing to do was
to get a head from the New Haven morgue...
1333
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:40,328
and pass it around the audience.
1334
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:43,290
Now, I wanted Agawe
to bring on a real head...
1335
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:45,840
and that this head should be
passed around the audience...
1336
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:49,561
so that somehow people realized
that this stuff was real, see?
1337
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:52,120
That it was real stuff.
1338
01:13:52,280 --> 01:13:56,001
- Now, the actress playing Agawe absolutely refused to do it.
- [ Giggling ]
1339
01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:58,208
You know, Gordon Craig
used to talk about...
1340
01:13:58,280 --> 01:14:02,490
why is there gold or silver in the churches
or something - the great cathedrals -
1341
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:06,121
when actors could be wearing
gold and silver?
1342
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:09,921
And I mean, people who saw Eleonora Duse in
the last couple of years of her life, Wally -
1343
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:13,368
people said that it was like
seeing light on stage, or mist...
1344
01:14:13,440 --> 01:14:15,442
or the essence of something.
1345
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:18,205
I mean, then when you think
about Bertolt Brecht-
1346
01:14:18,280 --> 01:14:21,409
He somehow created a theater
in which people could observe...
1347
01:14:21,480 --> 01:14:23,721
that was vastly entertaining
and exciting...
1348
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:26,883
but in which the excitement
didn't overwhelm you.
1349
01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:31,204
He somehow allowed you the distance
between the play and yourself...
1350
01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:34,244
that, in fact, two human beings need
in order to live together.
1351
01:14:34,320 --> 01:14:38,370
You know, the question is whether
the theater now can do for an audience...
1352
01:14:38,440 --> 01:14:41,808
what Brecht tried to do
or what Craig or Duse tried to do.
1353
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:43,803
Can it do it now?
1354
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:47,248
'Cause, you see, I think that
people today are so deeply asleep...
1355
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:50,005
that unless, you know, you're putting on
those sort of superficial plays...
1356
01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:52,321
that just help your audience
to sleep more comfortably...
1357
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:55,210
it's very hard to know
what to do in the theater.
1358
01:14:55,280 --> 01:14:57,203
[ People Chattering, Laughing]
1359
01:14:57,280 --> 01:15:01,922
Because, you see, I think that if you
put on serious, contemporary plays...
1360
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:03,923
by writers like yourself...
1361
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:06,685
you may only be helping to deaden
the audience in a different way.
1362
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:09,331
What do you mean?
1363
01:15:09,440 --> 01:15:11,488
Well, I mean, Wally...
1364
01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:14,928
how does it affect an audience
to put on one of these plays...
1365
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:17,970
in which you show that people
are totally isolated now...
1366
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:21,283
and they can't reach each other,
and their lives are desperate?
1367
01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:24,762
Or how does it affect them to see a play
that shows that our world...
1368
01:15:24,840 --> 01:15:29,050
is full of nothing but shocking
sexual events, and terror, and violence?
1369
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:31,407
Does that help to wake up
a sleeping audience?
1370
01:15:31,480 --> 01:15:34,609
See, I don't think so,
'cause I think it's very likely...
1371
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:37,809
that the picture of the world that you're
showing them in a play like that...
1372
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:40,929
is exactly the picture of the world
they have already.
1373
01:15:41,000 --> 01:15:43,810
I mean, you know, they know
their own lives and relationships...
1374
01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:45,882
are difficult and painful.
1375
01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:48,122
And if they watch the evening news
on television...
1376
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:51,409
well, there what they see
is a terrifying, chaotic universe...
1377
01:15:51,480 --> 01:15:55,530
full of rapes and murders
and hands cut off by subway cars...
1378
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:59,127
and children pushing their parents
out of windows.
1379
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:02,528
So the play tells them that
their impression of the world is correct...
1380
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:04,602
and that there's absolutely no way out.
1381
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:06,603
There's nothing they can do.
1382
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:09,650
And they end up feeling
passive and impotent.
1383
01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:12,200
I mean, look - look at something
like that christening...
1384
01:16:12,280 --> 01:16:14,601
that my group arranged for me
in the forest in Poland.
1385
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:17,684
Well, there was an example of something that
really had all the elements of theater.
1386
01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:21,009
It was worked on carefully.
It was thought about carefully.
1387
01:16:21,080 --> 01:16:23,447
It was done with
exquisite taste and magic.
1388
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:25,682
And they, in fact, created something...
1389
01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:29,526
which, in this case, was, in a way,
just for an audience of one - just for me.
1390
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:33,525
But they created something
that had ritual, love, surprise...
1391
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:35,568
denouement,
beginning, a middle and end...
1392
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:38,928
and was an incredibly beautiful
piece of theater.
1393
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:41,241
And the impact that it had
on its audience - on me -
1394
01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:43,641
was somehow a totally positive one.
1395
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:46,246
It didn't deaden me.
It brought me to life.
1396
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:51,361
Yeah, but I mean, are you saying
that it's impossible -
1397
01:16:51,440 --> 01:16:55,604
I mean, uh - I mean -
I mean, uh, isn't it a little upsetting...
1398
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:59,526
to come to the conclusion that there's
no way to wake people up anymore...
1399
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:03,924
except to involve them in some kind
of a strange, uh, christening in Poland...
1400
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:06,606
or some kind of a strange experience
on top of Mount Everest?
1401
01:17:06,680 --> 01:17:11,049
I mean, uh, because, uh,
you know that the awful thing is...
1402
01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:13,361
if you really say that
it's-it's necessary...
1403
01:17:13,480 --> 01:17:16,006
to, uh, take everybody to, uh, Everest...
1404
01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:20,051
it's really tough, because everybody
can't be taken to Everest.
1405
01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:23,440
I mean, there must have been periods in
history when it would have been possible...
1406
01:17:23,480 --> 01:17:26,450
to, uh, save the patient
through less drastic measures.
1407
01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:29,201
I mean, there must have been periods
when in order to give people...
1408
01:17:29,240 --> 01:17:31,242
a strong or meaningful experience...
1409
01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:34,290
you wouldn't actually have to
take them to Everest.
1410
01:17:34,360 --> 01:17:36,681
But you do now.
In some way or other, you do now.
1411
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:39,570
You know, there was a time when you
could have just, for instance, written...
1412
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:43,087
I don't know,
uh, Sense and Sensibility by Jane Austen.
1413
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:46,846
And I'm sure the people who read it had a
pretty strong experience. I'm sure they did.
1414
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:49,605
I mean, all right, now you're saying
that people today wouldn't get it.
1415
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:53,321
Maybe that's true. But I mean, isn't there
any kind of writing or any kind of a play -
1416
01:17:53,400 --> 01:17:55,926
I mean, isn't it still legitimate
for writers...
1417
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:59,243
to try to portray reality
so that people can see it?
1418
01:17:59,360 --> 01:18:03,445
I mean, really, tell me, why do we
require a trip to Mount Everest...
1419
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:05,841
in order to be able to perceive
one moment of reality?
1420
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:08,764
I mean - I mean, is Mount Everest
more real than New York?
1421
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:10,888
I mean, isn't New York real?
1422
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:15,124
I mean, you see, I think if you
could become fully aware...
1423
01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:18,647
of what existed in the cigar store
next door to this restaurant...
1424
01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:20,722
I think it would just
blow your brains out.
1425
01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:23,320
I mean - I mean, isn't there
just as much reality to be perceived...
1426
01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:25,402
in a cigar store
as there is on Mount Everest?
1427
01:18:25,480 --> 01:18:27,130
I mean, what do you think?
1428
01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:29,885
I think that not only is there nothing
more real about Mount Everest...
1429
01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:32,008
I think there's nothing that different,
in a certain way.
1430
01:18:32,080 --> 01:18:34,651
I mean, because reality
is uniform, in a way...
1431
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:36,688
so that if your -
if your perceptions are -
1432
01:18:36,760 --> 01:18:39,604
I mean, if your own mechanism
is operating correctly...
1433
01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:42,968
it would become irrelevant to go
to Mount Everest, and sort of absurd...
1434
01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:45,884
because, I mean - it just -
I mean, of course, on some level, I mean...
1435
01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:49,601
obviously it's very different
from a cigar store on 7th Avenue.
1436
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:52,889
- But I mean -
- Well, I agree with you, Wally.
1437
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:55,645
But the problem is that people
can't see the cigar store now.
1438
01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:58,246
I mean, things don't affect people
the way they used to.
1439
01:18:58,320 --> 01:19:00,721
I mean, it may very well be
that 10 years from now...
1440
01:19:00,840 --> 01:19:03,571
people will pay $10,000 in cash
to be castrated...
1441
01:19:03,640 --> 01:19:06,325
just in order to be affected by something.
1442
01:19:07,920 --> 01:19:11,003
Well, why - why do you think that is?
I mean, why is that?
1443
01:19:11,080 --> 01:19:15,608
I mean, is it just because people
are lazy today, or they're bored?
1444
01:19:15,680 --> 01:19:18,809
I mean, are we just
like bored, spoiled children...
1445
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:21,406
who've just been lying
in the bathtub all day...
1446
01:19:21,480 --> 01:19:23,801
just playing with their plastic duck...
1447
01:19:23,880 --> 01:19:27,282
and now they're just thinking,
“Well, what can I do?”
1448
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:31,570
Okay. Yes. We're bored.
1449
01:19:31,640 --> 01:19:33,642
We're all bored now.
1450
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:35,927
But has it ever occurred to you, Wally,
that the process...
1451
01:19:36,040 --> 01:19:38,520
that creates this boredom
that we see in the world now...
1452
01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:43,049
may very well be a self-perpetuating,
unconscious form of brainwashing...
1453
01:19:43,120 --> 01:19:46,363
created by a world totalitarian government
based on money...
1454
01:19:46,440 --> 01:19:49,091
and that all of this is much more dangerous
than one thinks...
1455
01:19:49,160 --> 01:19:52,050
and it's not just a question
of individual survival, Wally...
1456
01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:54,566
but that somebody who's bored
is asleep...
1457
01:19:54,640 --> 01:19:57,769
and somebody who's asleep
will not say no?
1458
01:19:57,840 --> 01:20:00,684
See, I keep meeting these people -
I mean, uh, just a few days ago...
1459
01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:02,728
I met this man whom I greatly admire.
1460
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:05,087
He's a Swedish physicist.
Gustav Björnstrand.
1461
01:20:05,160 --> 01:20:07,731
And he told me that he
no longer watches television...
1462
01:20:07,800 --> 01:20:10,724
he doesn't read newspapers,
and he doesn't read magazines.
1463
01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:13,121
He's completely
cut them out of his life...
1464
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:17,683
because he really does feel that we're living
in some kind of Orwellian nightmare now...
1465
01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:21,810
and that everything that you hear now
contributes to turning you into a robot.
1466
01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:26,561
And when I was at Findhorn, I met
this extraordinary English tree expert...
1467
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:28,768
who had devoted his life
to saving trees.
1468
01:20:28,840 --> 01:20:31,241
Just got back from Washington,
lobbying to save the redwoods.
1469
01:20:31,320 --> 01:20:34,164
He's 84 years old,
and he always travels with a backpack...
1470
01:20:34,240 --> 01:20:36,242
'cause he never knows
where he's gonna be tomorrow.
1471
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:39,324
And when I met him at Findhorn,
he said to me, “Where are you from?”
1472
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:42,449
I said, “New York.” He said, “Ah, New York.
Yes, that's a very interesting place.
1473
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:46,485
Do you know a lot of New Yorkers who keep talking about
the fact that they want to leave, but never do?”
1474
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:49,166
And I said, “Oh, yes.” And he said,
“Why do you think they don't leave?”
1475
01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:53,211
I gave him different banal theories. He said,
“Oh, I don't think it's that way at all.”
1476
01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:57,842
He said, “I think that New York is the new
model for the new concentration camp...
1477
01:20:57,920 --> 01:21:00,400
“where the camp has been built
by the inmates themselves...
1478
01:21:00,480 --> 01:21:04,087
“and the inmates are the guards, and they
have this pride in this thing they've built.
1479
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:06,083
“They've built their own prison.
1480
01:21:06,160 --> 01:21:08,162
“And so they exist
in a state of schizophrenia...
1481
01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:10,163
“where they are both guards
and prisoners.
1482
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:13,608
“And as a result, they no longer have -
having been lobotomized -
1483
01:21:13,720 --> 01:21:16,121
“the capacity to leave
the prison they've made...
1484
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:19,090
or to even see it as a prison.”
1485
01:21:19,160 --> 01:21:22,369
And then he went into his pocket,
and he took out a seed for a tree...
1486
01:21:22,480 --> 01:21:24,448
and he said, “This is a pine tree.”
1487
01:21:24,520 --> 01:21:28,127
He put it in my hand and he said,
“Escape before it's too late.”
1488
01:21:29,400 --> 01:21:32,006
See, actually,
for two or three years now...
1489
01:21:32,120 --> 01:21:36,444
Chiquita and I have had this very unpleasant
feeling that we really should get out.
1490
01:21:36,520 --> 01:21:39,330
We really feel like Jews in Germany
in the late '30s.
1491
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:41,323
Get out of here.
1492
01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:43,482
Of course, the problem is
where to go.
1493
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:48,407
'Cause it seems quite obvious that the
whole world is going in the same direction.
1494
01:21:50,400 --> 01:21:53,643
See, I think it's quite possible
that the 1960s...
1495
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:58,488
represented the last burst of the human
being before he was extinguished...
1496
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:01,285
and that this is the beginning
of the rest of the future, now...
1497
01:22:01,360 --> 01:22:05,490
and that from now on there'll simply be
all these robots walking around...
1498
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:07,847
feeling nothing, thinking nothing.
1499
01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:10,890
And there'll be nobody left almost
to remind them...
1500
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:14,282
that there once was a species
called a human being...
1501
01:22:14,360 --> 01:22:16,362
with feelings and thoughts...
1502
01:22:16,440 --> 01:22:19,284
and that history and memory
are right now being erased...
1503
01:22:19,360 --> 01:22:22,284
and soon nobody
will really remember...
1504
01:22:22,360 --> 01:22:24,601
that life existed on the planet.
1505
01:22:26,240 --> 01:22:30,689
Now, of course, Björnstrand feels
that there's really almost no hope...
1506
01:22:30,760 --> 01:22:34,162
and that we're probably
going back to a very savage...
1507
01:22:34,240 --> 01:22:37,289
lawless, terrifying period.
1508
01:22:37,360 --> 01:22:39,840
Findhorn people
see it a little differently.
1509
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:42,764
They're feeling that there'll be
these pockets of light...
1510
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:44,922
springing up
in different parts of the world...
1511
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:49,369
and that these will be, in a way,
invisible planets on this planet...
1512
01:22:49,440 --> 01:22:51,920
and that as we, or the world,
grow colder...
1513
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:55,641
we can take invisible space journeys
to these different planets...
1514
01:22:55,720 --> 01:22:59,202
refuel for what it is we need to do
on the planet itself...
1515
01:22:59,280 --> 01:23:01,567
and come back.
1516
01:23:01,640 --> 01:23:04,564
And it's their feeling that
there have to be centers now...
1517
01:23:04,640 --> 01:23:08,964
where people can come and reconstruct
a new future for the world.
1518
01:23:09,040 --> 01:23:11,080
And when I was talking
to, uh, Gustav Björnstrand...
1519
01:23:11,120 --> 01:23:14,363
he was saying that actually these centers
are growing up everywhere now...
1520
01:23:14,440 --> 01:23:17,444
and that what they're trying to do,
which is what Findhorn was trying to do...
1521
01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:19,761
and, in a way, what I was trying to do -
1522
01:23:19,840 --> 01:23:22,207
I mean,
these things can't be given names...
1523
01:23:22,280 --> 01:23:26,524
but in a way, these are all attempts
at creating a new kind of school...
1524
01:23:26,600 --> 01:23:28,807
or a new kind of monastery.
1525
01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:31,406
And Björnstrand talks about
the concept of “reserves” -
1526
01:23:31,480 --> 01:23:34,245
islands of safety where history
can be remembered...
1527
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:36,931
and the human being
can continue to function...
1528
01:23:37,000 --> 01:23:40,686
in order to maintain the species
through a dark age.
1529
01:23:42,720 --> 01:23:45,121
In other words, we're talking
about an underground...
1530
01:23:45,200 --> 01:23:47,806
which did exist in a different way
during the Dark Ages...
1531
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:50,611
among the mystical orders
of the church.
1532
01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:52,842
And the purpose of this underground...
1533
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:58,131
is to find out how to preserve
the light, life, the culture...
1534
01:23:58,200 --> 01:24:01,647
how to keep things living.
1535
01:24:01,720 --> 01:24:04,644
You see, I keep thinking
that what we need...
1536
01:24:04,720 --> 01:24:07,564
is a new language -
1537
01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:09,802
a language of the heart...
1538
01:24:09,880 --> 01:24:13,805
a language, as in the Polish forest,
where language wasn't needed.
1539
01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:18,841
Some kind of language between people
that is a new kind of poetry...
1540
01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:23,482
that's the poetry of the dancing bee
that tells us where the honey is.
1541
01:24:23,560 --> 01:24:26,643
And I think that in order
to create that language...
1542
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:30,281
you're going to have to learn how
you can go through a looking glass...
1543
01:24:30,360 --> 01:24:32,328
into another kind of perception...
1544
01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:37,327
where you have that sense
of being united to all things...
1545
01:24:37,400 --> 01:24:40,643
and suddenly you understand everything.
1546
01:24:45,040 --> 01:24:48,761
[ Siren Wailing In Distance]
1547
01:24:49,760 --> 01:24:52,047
Are you ready for some dessert?
1548
01:24:52,120 --> 01:24:54,282
Uh, I think I'll just have an espresso.
Thank you.
1549
01:24:54,400 --> 01:24:58,371
- Very good.
- I'll - I'll also have one. Thank you.
1550
01:24:58,440 --> 01:25:01,728
And - And, uh, could I also
have, uh, an amaretto?
1551
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:04,485
Certainly, sir.
1552
01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:06,688
Thank you.
1553
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:11,049
You see, Wally, there's this incredible
building that they built at Findhorn.
1554
01:25:11,120 --> 01:25:13,726
And the man who designed it
had never designed anything in his life.
1555
01:25:13,800 --> 01:25:15,768
He wrote children's books.
1556
01:25:15,880 --> 01:25:19,043
And some people wanted it to be
a sort of hall of meditation...
1557
01:25:19,120 --> 01:25:21,521
and others wanted it to be
a kind of lecture hall.
1558
01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:25,730
But the psychic part of the community wanted
it to serve another function as well...
1559
01:25:25,800 --> 01:25:29,407
because they wanted it to be a kind of
spaceship which at night could rise up...
1560
01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:32,285
and let the U.F.O.'s know that this
was a safe place to land...
1561
01:25:32,360 --> 01:25:34,362
and that they would find friends there.
1562
01:25:34,480 --> 01:25:38,201
So, the problem was -
'cause it needed a massive kind of roof-
1563
01:25:38,320 --> 01:25:41,403
was how to have a roof
that would stay on the building...
1564
01:25:41,480 --> 01:25:44,927
but at the same time be able to fly up
at night and meet the flying saucers.
1565
01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:47,765
So, the architect
meditated and meditated...
1566
01:25:47,840 --> 01:25:50,684
and he finally came up with
the very simple solution...
1567
01:25:50,760 --> 01:25:53,081
of not actually joining the roof
to the building...
1568
01:25:53,160 --> 01:25:55,162
which means that it should fall off...
1569
01:25:55,240 --> 01:25:58,403
because they have great gales
up in northern Scotland.
1570
01:25:58,480 --> 01:26:02,007
So, to keep it from falling off,
he got beach stones from the beach -
1571
01:26:02,080 --> 01:26:04,890
or we did,
'cause I-l worked on this building -
1572
01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:07,042
all up and down the roof,
just like that.
1573
01:26:07,120 --> 01:26:11,409
And the idea was that the energy
that would flow from stone to stone...
1574
01:26:11,520 --> 01:26:13,522
would be so strong, you see...
1575
01:26:13,600 --> 01:26:16,922
that it would keep the roof down
under any conditions...
1576
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:21,528
but at the same time, if the roof needed to
go up, it would be light enough to go up.
1577
01:26:21,600 --> 01:26:25,286
Well - [ Chuckling ]
it works, you see.
1578
01:26:25,360 --> 01:26:27,931
Now, architects
don't know why it works...
1579
01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:30,002
and it shouldn't work,
'cause it should fall off.
1580
01:26:30,120 --> 01:26:32,043
But it works. It does work.
1581
01:26:32,120 --> 01:26:35,806
The gales blow, and the roof should
fall off, but it doesn't fall off.
1582
01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:38,929
[ Man Coughing]
1583
01:26:40,480 --> 01:26:42,403
Yep.
1584
01:26:42,480 --> 01:26:44,403
Well, uh...
1585
01:26:45,520 --> 01:26:48,251
do you want to know
my actual response to all this?
1586
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:50,687
- Do you want to hear my actual response?
- Yes!
1587
01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:54,721
See, my actual response -
I mean -
1588
01:26:54,800 --> 01:26:59,886
[ Laughing ] I mean - I mean,
I'm just trying to - to survive, you know?
1589
01:26:59,960 --> 01:27:03,123
I mean,
I'm just trying to earn a living...
1590
01:27:03,200 --> 01:27:05,851
just trying to pay my rent and my bills.
1591
01:27:05,920 --> 01:27:08,321
I mean, uh -
1592
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:11,768
Ah, I live my life.
1593
01:27:11,840 --> 01:27:14,923
I enjoy staying home with Debby.
1594
01:27:15,040 --> 01:27:17,850
I'm reading Charlton Heston's
autobiography.
1595
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:19,610
And that's that.
1596
01:27:19,680 --> 01:27:22,604
I mean, you know -
I mean, occasionally, maybe...
1597
01:27:22,680 --> 01:27:27,163
Debby and I will step outside,
we'll go to a party or something.
1598
01:27:27,240 --> 01:27:30,687
And if I can occasionally get my little
talent together and write a little play...
1599
01:27:30,760 --> 01:27:33,001
well, then that's just -
that's just wonderful.
1600
01:27:33,080 --> 01:27:36,050
And I mean, I enjoy reading about
other little plays people have written...
1601
01:27:36,120 --> 01:27:39,522
and reading the reviews of those plays
and what people said about them...
1602
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:42,809
and what people said
about what people said.
1603
01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:47,369
And I mean, I have - I have a list of errands
and responsibilities that I keep in a notebook.
1604
01:27:47,440 --> 01:27:49,920
I enjoy going through the notebook...
1605
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:52,446
carrying out the responsibilities,
doing the errands...
1606
01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:55,683
and crossing them off the list.
1607
01:27:55,760 --> 01:28:00,243
And, I mean, I just - I just don't know
how anybody could enjoy anything more...
1608
01:28:00,320 --> 01:28:04,689
than I enjoy, uh, reading
Charlton Heston's autobiography...
1609
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:07,610
or, uh, you know, uh,
getting up in the morning...
1610
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:11,207
and having the cup of cold coffee
that's been waiting for me all night...
1611
01:28:11,280 --> 01:28:13,806
still there for me
to drink in the morning...
1612
01:28:13,880 --> 01:28:17,282
and no cockroach or fly
has-has died in it overnight.
1613
01:28:17,360 --> 01:28:20,045
I mean, I'm just so thrilled
when I get up...
1614
01:28:20,120 --> 01:28:23,647
and I see that coffee there,
just the way I wanted it.
1615
01:28:23,720 --> 01:28:26,007
I mean, I just can't imagine...
1616
01:28:26,080 --> 01:28:28,686
how anybody could enjoy something else
any more than that.
1617
01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:32,606
I mean - I mean, obviously, if the cockroach
- If there is a dead cockroach in it...
1618
01:28:32,680 --> 01:28:35,490
well, then I just have a feeling
of disappointment, and I'm sad.
1619
01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:38,723
But I mean, I - I just-
I just don't think...
1620
01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:41,087
I feel the need for anything more
than all this.
1621
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:43,766
Whereas, you know,
you seem to be saying...
1622
01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:46,804
that, uh...
1623
01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:50,248
it's inconceivable that anybody could
be having a meaningful life today...
1624
01:28:50,320 --> 01:28:52,482
and, you know,
everyone is totally destroyed...
1625
01:28:52,560 --> 01:28:55,166
and we all need to live
in these outposts.
1626
01:28:55,240 --> 01:28:57,925
But I mean, you know,
I just can't believe - even for you -
1627
01:28:58,000 --> 01:29:01,322
I mean, don't you find - isn't it pleasant
just to get up in the morning...
1628
01:29:01,440 --> 01:29:04,887
and there's Chiquita,
there are the children...
1629
01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:07,440
and The Times is delivered,
you can read it.
1630
01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:10,410
I mean, maybe you'll direct a play,
maybe you won't direct a play.
1631
01:29:10,480 --> 01:29:13,086
But forget about the play
that you may or may not direct.
1632
01:29:13,200 --> 01:29:17,762
Why is it necessary to - Why not lean back
and just enjoy these details?
1633
01:29:17,840 --> 01:29:22,448
I mean, and there'd be a delicious cup
of coffee and a piece of coffeecake.
1634
01:29:22,520 --> 01:29:25,205
I mean, why is it necessary
to have more than this...
1635
01:29:25,280 --> 01:29:27,601
or to even think about
having more than this?
1636
01:29:27,680 --> 01:29:31,048
I mean, I don't really know
what you're talking about.
1637
01:29:32,320 --> 01:29:34,971
I mean - I mean,
I know what you're talking about...
1638
01:29:35,040 --> 01:29:37,884
but I don't really know
what you're talking about.
1639
01:29:37,960 --> 01:29:41,169
And I mean, you know, even if I were
to totally agree with you, you know...
1640
01:29:41,240 --> 01:29:44,483
and even if I were to accept the idea
that there's just no way for anybody...
1641
01:29:44,560 --> 01:29:46,642
to have personal happiness now...
1642
01:29:46,720 --> 01:29:49,087
well, you know,
I still couldn't accept the idea...
1643
01:29:49,160 --> 01:29:51,811
that the way to make life wonderful
would be to just totally...
1644
01:29:51,880 --> 01:29:54,247
you know,
reject Western civilization...
1645
01:29:54,320 --> 01:29:57,642
and fall back into some kind of belief
in some kind of weird something -
1646
01:29:57,720 --> 01:30:00,166
I mean, I don't even know how
to begin talking about this...
1647
01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:03,608
but you know, in the Middle Ages...
1648
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:07,287
before the arrival of
scientific thinking as we know it today...
1649
01:30:07,360 --> 01:30:09,647
well, people could believe anything.
1650
01:30:09,720 --> 01:30:12,371
Anything could be true -
the statue of the Virgin Mary...
1651
01:30:12,440 --> 01:30:14,522
could speak or bleed
or whatever it was.
1652
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:16,648
But the wonderful thing
that happened...
1653
01:30:16,720 --> 01:30:19,690
was that then in the development
of science in the Western world...
1654
01:30:19,760 --> 01:30:24,527
certain things did come slowly
to be known and understood.
1655
01:30:24,600 --> 01:30:27,171
I mean, you know...
1656
01:30:27,240 --> 01:30:30,722
obviously, all ideas in science
are constantly being revised.
1657
01:30:30,800 --> 01:30:32,723
I mean, that's the whole point.
1658
01:30:32,800 --> 01:30:37,806
But we do at least know that the universe
has some shape and order...
1659
01:30:37,880 --> 01:30:42,408
and that, uh, you know, trees do not
turn into people or goddesses...
1660
01:30:42,480 --> 01:30:44,801
and there are very good reasons
why they don't...
1661
01:30:44,880 --> 01:30:47,201
and you can't just believe
absolutely anything.
1662
01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:49,203
Whereas, the things
that you're talking about-
1663
01:30:49,280 --> 01:30:52,841
I mean - I mean, you found
the handprint in the book...
1664
01:30:52,920 --> 01:30:56,891
and there were - there were three Andres
and one Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.
1665
01:30:56,960 --> 01:30:59,770
And to me that is a coincidence.
1666
01:30:59,840 --> 01:31:02,810
But - And-And then, you know,
the people who put that book together...
1667
01:31:02,880 --> 01:31:05,121
well, they had their own reasons
for putting it together.
1668
01:31:05,160 --> 01:31:08,403
But to you it was significant, as if that
book had been written 40 years ago...
1669
01:31:08,480 --> 01:31:12,485
so that you would see it,
as if it was planned for you, in a way.
1670
01:31:12,560 --> 01:31:14,642
I mean, really - I mean -
1671
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:19,282
I mean, all right, let's say, if I get
a fortune cookie in a Chinese restaurant...
1672
01:31:19,360 --> 01:31:21,408
I mean, of course,
even I have a tendency -
1673
01:31:21,480 --> 01:31:24,290
I mean, you know - I mean, of course,
I would hardly throw it out.
1674
01:31:24,360 --> 01:31:27,364
I mean, I read it.
I read it, and - and, uh -
1675
01:31:27,440 --> 01:31:30,683
I just instinctively sort of-
You know, if it says something like, uh...
1676
01:31:30,760 --> 01:31:34,401
“A conversation with a dark-haired man
will be very important for you”...
1677
01:31:34,480 --> 01:31:37,529
well, I just instinctively think, you know,
“Who do I know who has dark hair?
1678
01:31:37,600 --> 01:31:40,410
Did we have a conversation?
What did we talk about?”
1679
01:31:40,480 --> 01:31:44,804
In other words, uh, there's something
in me that makes me read it...
1680
01:31:44,880 --> 01:31:48,566
and I instinctively interpret it
as if it were an omen of the future.
1681
01:31:48,640 --> 01:31:52,167
But in my conscious opinion, which is
so fundamental to my whole view of life -
1682
01:31:52,240 --> 01:31:55,449
I mean, I would just have to change totally
to not have this opinion.
1683
01:31:55,520 --> 01:31:57,560
In my conscious opinion,
this is simply something...
1684
01:31:57,600 --> 01:32:01,764
that was written in the cookie factory several
years ago and in no way refers to me.
1685
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:04,605
I mean, you know,
the - the fact that I got it-
1686
01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:07,445
I mean, the man who wrote it
did not know anything about me.
1687
01:32:07,520 --> 01:32:09,568
I mean, he could not have known
anything about me.
1688
01:32:09,640 --> 01:32:12,291
There's no way that this cookie
could actually have to do with me.
1689
01:32:12,360 --> 01:32:14,966
And the fact that I've gotten it
is just basically a joke.
1690
01:32:15,040 --> 01:32:17,850
And I mean, if I were gonna go
on a trip on an airplane...
1691
01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:19,968
and I got a fortune cookie
that said “Don't go”...
1692
01:32:20,040 --> 01:32:23,806
I mean, of course, I admit I might feel
a bit nervous for about one second.
1693
01:32:23,880 --> 01:32:26,360
But in fact, I would go because,
I mean...
1694
01:32:26,440 --> 01:32:28,920
that trip is gonna be successful
or unsuccessful...
1695
01:32:29,000 --> 01:32:31,651
based on the state of the airplane
and the state of the pilot.
1696
01:32:31,720 --> 01:32:34,485
And the cookie is in no position
to know about that.
1697
01:32:34,560 --> 01:32:36,483
And I mean, you know, it's the same...
1698
01:32:36,560 --> 01:32:39,325
with any kind of, uh, prophecy,
or a sign, or an omen.
1699
01:32:39,400 --> 01:32:43,803
Because if you believe in omens,
then that means that the universe -
1700
01:32:43,880 --> 01:32:46,326
I mean, I don't even know how
to begin to describe this.
1701
01:32:46,400 --> 01:32:49,847
That means that the future
is somehow sending messages...
1702
01:32:49,960 --> 01:32:52,042
backwards to the present.
1703
01:32:52,120 --> 01:32:55,442
Which-Which means that the future
must exist in some sense already...
1704
01:32:55,520 --> 01:32:58,444
in order to be able
to send these messages.
1705
01:32:58,560 --> 01:33:02,770
And it also means that things in the universe
are there for a purpose - to give us messages.
1706
01:33:02,840 --> 01:33:05,241
Whereas I think that things
in the universe are just there.
1707
01:33:05,320 --> 01:33:07,209
I mean, they don't mean anything.
1708
01:33:07,320 --> 01:33:11,848
I mean, you know, if the turtle's egg falls out
of the tree and splashes on the paving stones...
1709
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:15,003
it's just because that turtle was clumsy -
by accident.
1710
01:33:15,080 --> 01:33:19,165
And-And to decide whether to send
my ships off to war on the basis of that...
1711
01:33:19,280 --> 01:33:21,362
seems a big mistake to me.
1712
01:33:21,440 --> 01:33:25,047
Well, what information would
you send your ships to war on?
1713
01:33:25,160 --> 01:33:26,844
Because if it's all meaningless...
1714
01:33:26,920 --> 01:33:28,968
what's the difference whether
you accept the fortune cookie...
1715
01:33:29,080 --> 01:33:31,128
or the statistics
of the Ford Foundation?
1716
01:33:31,200 --> 01:33:33,202
It doesn't seem to matter.
1717
01:33:33,280 --> 01:33:37,410
Well, the meaningless fact of the
fortune cookie or the turtle's egg...
1718
01:33:37,480 --> 01:33:41,280
can't possibly have any relevance
to the subject you're analyzing.
1719
01:33:41,360 --> 01:33:44,603
Whereas a group of meaningless facts
that are collected and interpreted...
1720
01:33:44,720 --> 01:33:48,122
in a scientific way
may quite possibly be relevant.
1721
01:33:48,200 --> 01:33:50,921
Because the wonderful thing
about scientific theories about things...
1722
01:33:50,960 --> 01:33:54,646
is that they're based on experiments
that can be repeated.
1723
01:33:55,680 --> 01:33:57,648
Hmm.
1724
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:14,648
Well, it's true, Wally.
1725
01:34:14,720 --> 01:34:17,451
I mean, you know,
following omens and so on...
1726
01:34:17,520 --> 01:34:20,285
is probably just a way
of letting ourselves off the hook...
1727
01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:24,729
so that we don't have to take individual
responsibility for our own actions.
1728
01:34:24,800 --> 01:34:27,087
But I mean, giving yourself over
to the unconscious...
1729
01:34:27,160 --> 01:34:32,530
can leave you vulnerable to all sorts
of very frightening manipulation.
1730
01:34:32,600 --> 01:34:35,922
And in all the work that I was involved in,
there was always that danger.
1731
01:34:36,000 --> 01:34:39,607
And there was always that question
of tampering with people's lives...
1732
01:34:39,680 --> 01:34:43,321
because if I lead one of these workshops,
then I do become partly a doctor...
1733
01:34:43,400 --> 01:34:45,528
and partly a therapist,
and partly a priest.
1734
01:34:45,600 --> 01:34:50,003
And I'm not a doctor,
or a therapist, or a priest.
1735
01:34:50,120 --> 01:34:52,691
And already some
of these new monasteries...
1736
01:34:52,760 --> 01:34:55,366
or communities or whatever
we've been talking about...
1737
01:34:55,440 --> 01:34:57,488
are becoming institutionalized...
1738
01:34:57,560 --> 01:35:00,769
and I guess even in a way, at times,
sort of fascistic.
1739
01:35:00,880 --> 01:35:04,965
You know, there's a sort of self-satisfied
elitist paranoia that grows up -
1740
01:35:05,040 --> 01:35:08,089
a feeling of “them” and “us” -
that is very unsettling.
1741
01:35:08,160 --> 01:35:12,370
But I mean, uh, the thing is, Wally, I think
it's the exaggerated worship of science...
1742
01:35:12,440 --> 01:35:14,442
that has led us into this situation.
1743
01:35:14,560 --> 01:35:17,131
I mean, science has been held up to us
as a magical force...
1744
01:35:17,200 --> 01:35:19,202
that would somehow solve everything.
1745
01:35:19,280 --> 01:35:21,521
Well, quite the contrary.
It's done quite the contrary.
1746
01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:23,602
It's destroyed everything.
1747
01:35:23,680 --> 01:35:25,648
So that is what has really led,
I think...
1748
01:35:25,720 --> 01:35:29,725
to this very strong, deep reaction
against science that we're seeing now...
1749
01:35:29,800 --> 01:35:32,531
just as the Nazi demons that were
released in the '30s in Germany...
1750
01:35:32,600 --> 01:35:36,446
were probably a reaction against
a certain oppressive kind of knowledge...
1751
01:35:36,520 --> 01:35:39,000
and culture and rational thinking.
1752
01:35:39,080 --> 01:35:42,607
So I agree that we're talking about
something potentially very dangerous.
1753
01:35:42,680 --> 01:35:45,968
But modern science has not been
particularly less dangerous.
1754
01:35:46,040 --> 01:35:48,008
Right. Well, I agree with you.
1755
01:35:48,080 --> 01:35:50,082
I completely agree.
1756
01:35:51,920 --> 01:35:54,366
No, you know, the truth is...
1757
01:35:54,440 --> 01:35:58,650
I think I do know what really disturbs me
about the work you've described...
1758
01:35:58,720 --> 01:36:01,690
and I don't even know if I can express it.
1759
01:36:01,800 --> 01:36:05,691
But somehow it seems that the whole point of
the work that you did in those workshops...
1760
01:36:05,760 --> 01:36:09,685
when you get right down to it
and you ask what was it really about-
1761
01:36:09,760 --> 01:36:11,728
The whole point, really, I think...
1762
01:36:11,800 --> 01:36:14,963
was to enable the people in the workshops,
including yourself...
1763
01:36:15,080 --> 01:36:19,449
to somehow sort of strip away
every scrap of purposefulness...
1764
01:36:19,520 --> 01:36:22,091
from certain selected moments.
1765
01:36:22,160 --> 01:36:25,403
And the point of it was so that you would
then all be able to experience...
1766
01:36:25,480 --> 01:36:28,643
somehow just pure being.
1767
01:36:28,800 --> 01:36:32,725
In other words, you were trying to discover what
it would be like to live for certain moments...
1768
01:36:32,800 --> 01:36:35,883
without having any particular thing
that you were supposed to be doing.
1769
01:36:35,960 --> 01:36:38,327
And I think
I just simply object to that.
1770
01:36:38,400 --> 01:36:41,563
I mean, I just don't think I accept the
idea that there should be moments...
1771
01:36:41,640 --> 01:36:43,802
in which you're not trying
to do anything.
1772
01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:47,885
[ Chuckling ] I think, uh,
it's our nature, uh, to do things.
1773
01:36:47,960 --> 01:36:49,883
I think we should do things.
1774
01:36:49,960 --> 01:36:52,088
I think that, uh, purposefulness...
1775
01:36:52,200 --> 01:36:56,569
is part of our ineradicable
basic human structure.
1776
01:36:56,640 --> 01:36:59,450
And to say that we ought to
be able to live without it...
1777
01:36:59,520 --> 01:37:03,525
is like saying that, uh, a tree ought to
be able to live without branches or roots.
1778
01:37:03,600 --> 01:37:06,331
But - But actually, without branches
or roots, it wouldn't be a tree.
1779
01:37:06,400 --> 01:37:09,244
I mean, it would just be a log.
Do you see what I'm saying?
1780
01:37:09,320 --> 01:37:11,004
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
1781
01:37:11,080 --> 01:37:14,448
I mean, in other words, if I'm sitting
at home and I have nothing to do...
1782
01:37:14,520 --> 01:37:16,443
well, I naturally reach for a book.
1783
01:37:16,520 --> 01:37:20,241
I mean, what would be so great about
just sitting there and, uh, doing nothing?
1784
01:37:20,320 --> 01:37:22,243
It just seems absurd.
1785
01:37:22,320 --> 01:37:23,970
And if Debby is there?
1786
01:37:25,160 --> 01:37:27,083
Well, that's just the same thing.
1787
01:37:27,160 --> 01:37:30,084
I mean, is there really
such a thing as, uh...
1788
01:37:30,160 --> 01:37:34,085
two people doing nothing
but just being together?
1789
01:37:34,200 --> 01:37:36,202
I mean, would they simply then...
1790
01:37:36,280 --> 01:37:39,363
be, uh, “relating,”
to use the word we're always using?
1791
01:37:39,440 --> 01:37:41,363
I mean, what would that mean?
1792
01:37:41,440 --> 01:37:43,442
I mean, either we're
gonna have a conversation...
1793
01:37:43,520 --> 01:37:45,648
or we're going to, uh,
carry out the garbage...
1794
01:37:45,720 --> 01:37:49,327
or we're going to do something,
separately or together.
1795
01:37:49,400 --> 01:37:51,323
I mean, do you see what I'm saying?
1796
01:37:51,400 --> 01:37:55,291
I mean, what does it mean
to just, uh, simply, uh, sit there?
1797
01:37:55,360 --> 01:37:57,681
That makes you nervous.
1798
01:37:57,800 --> 01:38:02,203
Well, well, why shouldn't it make me nervous?
It just seems ridiculous to me.
1799
01:38:02,280 --> 01:38:04,282
That's interesting, Wally.
1800
01:38:05,440 --> 01:38:09,206
You know, when I went to Ladakh in western
Tibet and stayed on a farm for a month...
1801
01:38:09,360 --> 01:38:13,251
well, there, you know, when people come over
in the evening for tea, nobody says anything.
1802
01:38:13,320 --> 01:38:15,448
Unless there's something to say,
but there almost never is.
1803
01:38:15,520 --> 01:38:19,081
So they just sit there and drink their tea,
and it doesn't seem to bother them.
1804
01:38:20,400 --> 01:38:24,803
I mean, you see, the trouble, Wally, with
always being active and doing things...
1805
01:38:24,880 --> 01:38:28,043
is that I think it's quite possible
to do all sorts of things...
1806
01:38:28,120 --> 01:38:31,522
and at the same time
be completely dead inside.
1807
01:38:31,600 --> 01:38:34,046
I mean, you're doing all these things,
but are you doing them...
1808
01:38:34,120 --> 01:38:36,248
because you really feel
an impulse to do them...
1809
01:38:36,320 --> 01:38:39,085
or are you doing them mechanically,
as we were saying before?
1810
01:38:39,160 --> 01:38:41,811
Because I really do believe
that if you're just living mechanically...
1811
01:38:41,880 --> 01:38:44,121
then you have to change your life.
1812
01:38:44,200 --> 01:38:47,204
I mean, you know, when you're young,
you go out on dates all the time.
1813
01:38:47,280 --> 01:38:50,204
You go dancing or something.
You're floating free.
1814
01:38:50,320 --> 01:38:53,483
And then one day suddenly
you find yourself in a relationship...
1815
01:38:53,560 --> 01:38:55,688
and suddenly everything freezes.
1816
01:38:55,760 --> 01:38:58,570
And this can be true
in your work as well.
1817
01:38:58,640 --> 01:39:01,484
And I mean, of course,
if you're really alive inside...
1818
01:39:01,560 --> 01:39:03,528
then of course there's no problem.
1819
01:39:03,600 --> 01:39:05,841
I mean, if you're living with somebody
in one little room...
1820
01:39:05,960 --> 01:39:08,770
and there's a life going on between you
and the person you're living with...
1821
01:39:08,880 --> 01:39:13,363
well, then a whole adventure
can be going on right in that room.
1822
01:39:13,440 --> 01:39:17,047
But there's always the danger
that things can go dead.
1823
01:39:17,120 --> 01:39:20,727
Then I really do think you have to kind of
become a hobo or something, you know...
1824
01:39:20,800 --> 01:39:22,962
like Kerouac,
and go out on the road.
1825
01:39:23,040 --> 01:39:25,202
I really believe that.
1826
01:39:25,280 --> 01:39:29,171
You know, it's not that wonderful
to spend your life on the road.
1827
01:39:29,240 --> 01:39:33,802
My own overwhelming preference
is to stay in that room if you can.
1828
01:39:33,880 --> 01:39:37,089
But you know, if you live with somebody for a
long time, people are constantly saying...
1829
01:39:37,200 --> 01:39:40,841
“Well, of course it's not as great
as it used to be, but that's only natural.
1830
01:39:40,920 --> 01:39:44,402
The first blush of a romance goes,
and that's the way it has to be.”
1831
01:39:44,480 --> 01:39:47,643
Now, I totally disagree with that.
1832
01:39:47,760 --> 01:39:52,448
But I do think that you have to constantly ask
yourself the question, with total frankness:
1833
01:39:52,520 --> 01:39:54,648
ls your marriage still a marriage?
1834
01:39:54,720 --> 01:39:56,927
Is the sacramental element there?
1835
01:39:57,000 --> 01:39:59,681
Just as you have to ask about
the sacramental element in your work -
1836
01:39:59,720 --> 01:40:02,087
Is it still there?
1837
01:40:02,160 --> 01:40:04,845
I mean, it's a very frightening thing,
Wally, to have to suddenly realize...
1838
01:40:04,920 --> 01:40:09,164
that, my God, I thought I was living my life,
but in fact I haven't been a human being.
1839
01:40:09,240 --> 01:40:11,163
I've been a performer.
1840
01:40:11,240 --> 01:40:14,481
I haven't been living. I've been acting.
I've - I've acted the role of the father.
1841
01:40:14,520 --> 01:40:18,081
I've acted the role of the husband.
I've acted the role of the friend.
1842
01:40:18,160 --> 01:40:21,607
I've acted the role of the writer,
or director, or what have you.
1843
01:40:21,680 --> 01:40:25,571
I've lived in the same room with this
person, but I haven't really seen them.
1844
01:40:25,640 --> 01:40:29,690
I haven't really heard them.
I haven't really been with them.
1845
01:40:29,760 --> 01:40:32,445
Yeah, I know some people
are just sometimes...
1846
01:40:32,520 --> 01:40:35,171
uh, existing just side by side.
1847
01:40:35,240 --> 01:40:40,167
I mean, uh, the other person's, uh, face
could just turn into a great wolf's face...
1848
01:40:40,240 --> 01:40:43,084
and, uh, it just wouldn't be noticed.
1849
01:40:43,160 --> 01:40:46,482
And it wouldn't be noticed, no.
It wouldn't be noticed.
1850
01:40:47,800 --> 01:40:49,962
I mean, when I was in Israel
a little while ago -
1851
01:40:50,040 --> 01:40:52,691
I mean, I have this picture of Chiquita
that was taken when she -
1852
01:40:52,760 --> 01:40:56,401
I always carry it with me. It was taken
when she was about 26 or something.
1853
01:40:56,480 --> 01:40:59,324
And it's in summer,
and she's stretched out on a terrace...
1854
01:40:59,400 --> 01:41:02,324
in this sort of old-fashioned long skirt
that's kind of pulled up.
1855
01:41:02,400 --> 01:41:04,880
And she's slim and sensual
and beautiful.
1856
01:41:05,000 --> 01:41:09,369
And I've always looked at that picture and
just thought about just how sexy she looks.
1857
01:41:09,440 --> 01:41:11,807
And then last year in Israel,
I looked at the picture...
1858
01:41:11,880 --> 01:41:16,204
and I realized that that face in the
picture was the saddest face in the world.
1859
01:41:16,280 --> 01:41:19,363
That girl at that time was just lost...
1860
01:41:19,440 --> 01:41:21,408
so sad and so alone.
1861
01:41:21,520 --> 01:41:25,081
I've been carrying this picture for years and
not ever really seeing what it is, you know.
1862
01:41:25,160 --> 01:41:28,323
I just never really
looked at the picture.
1863
01:41:30,320 --> 01:41:34,689
And then, at a certain point, I realized I'd
just gone for a good 18 years unable to feel...
1864
01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:36,967
except in the most extreme situations.
1865
01:41:37,040 --> 01:41:40,044
I mean, to some extent, I still had
the ability to live in my work.
1866
01:41:40,120 --> 01:41:42,043
That was why I was such a work junkie.
1867
01:41:42,120 --> 01:41:46,364
That was why I felt that every play that I
did was a matter of my life or my death.
1868
01:41:46,440 --> 01:41:48,647
But in my real life, I was dead.
1869
01:41:48,720 --> 01:41:51,326
I was a robot.
1870
01:41:51,400 --> 01:41:54,370
I mean, I didn't even allow myself
to get angry or annoyed.
1871
01:41:54,440 --> 01:41:57,205
I mean, you know, today
Chiquita, Nicolas, Marina -
1872
01:41:57,320 --> 01:42:01,211
All clay long, as people do, they do things that
annoy me and they say things that annoy me.
1873
01:42:01,280 --> 01:42:04,045
And today I get annoyed.
And they say, “Why are you annoyed?”
1874
01:42:04,120 --> 01:42:06,282
And I say, “Because you're annoying,”
you know.
1875
01:42:07,960 --> 01:42:10,201
And when I allowed myself
to consider the possibility...
1876
01:42:10,280 --> 01:42:12,886
of not spending
the rest of my life with Chiquita...
1877
01:42:12,960 --> 01:42:16,681
I realized that what I wanted most in life
was to always be with her.
1878
01:42:18,080 --> 01:42:21,448
But at that time, I hadn't learned what
it would be like to let yourself react...
1879
01:42:21,520 --> 01:42:23,443
to another human being.
1880
01:42:23,520 --> 01:42:25,568
And if you can't react
to another person...
1881
01:42:25,640 --> 01:42:28,803
then there's no possibility
of action or interaction.
1882
01:42:28,880 --> 01:42:33,966
And if there isn't, I don't really know
what the word “love” means...
1883
01:42:34,040 --> 01:42:38,841
except duty, obligation,
sentimentality, fear.
1884
01:42:41,280 --> 01:42:43,851
I mean -
[Chuckling ]
1885
01:42:44,840 --> 01:42:46,888
I don't know about you, Wally, but I -
1886
01:42:46,960 --> 01:42:51,010
I just had to put myself into a kind of training
program to learn how to be a human being.
1887
01:42:51,080 --> 01:42:53,242
I mean, how did I feel about anything?
I didn't know.
1888
01:42:53,360 --> 01:42:57,729
What kind of things did I like? What kind of
people did I really want to be with? You know?
1889
01:42:57,800 --> 01:43:00,201
And the only way
that I could think of to find out...
1890
01:43:00,280 --> 01:43:04,285
was to just cut out all the noise
and stop performing all the time...
1891
01:43:04,360 --> 01:43:07,682
and just listen to what was inside me.
1892
01:43:07,760 --> 01:43:10,764
See, I think a time comes
when you need to do that.
1893
01:43:10,840 --> 01:43:13,923
Now, maybe in order to do it,
you have to go to the Sahara...
1894
01:43:14,040 --> 01:43:16,042
and maybe you can do it at home.
1895
01:43:16,120 --> 01:43:18,487
But you need to cut out the noise.
1896
01:43:20,680 --> 01:43:22,603
[ Car Horn Honks On Street]
1897
01:43:22,680 --> 01:43:24,648
Yeah. Of course, personally,
I-l just, uh -
1898
01:43:24,760 --> 01:43:28,446
I usually don't, uh - [ Chuckles ]
like those quiet moments, you know.
1899
01:43:28,520 --> 01:43:30,170
I really don't.
1900
01:43:30,240 --> 01:43:34,962
I mean, uh, I don't know if
it's that, uh, Freudian thing or what-
1901
01:43:35,040 --> 01:43:37,771
But, uh, you know, the fear
of unconscious impulses...
1902
01:43:37,840 --> 01:43:41,003
or my own aggression
or whatever, but, uh...
1903
01:43:41,080 --> 01:43:44,801
if things get too quiet, and I find myself
just, uh, sitting there...
1904
01:43:44,880 --> 01:43:46,848
you know,
as we were saying before...
1905
01:43:46,920 --> 01:43:51,562
I mean, whether I'm by myself,
or-or I'm-I'm with someone else...
1906
01:43:51,640 --> 01:43:54,723
I just, uh -
I just have this feeling of...
1907
01:43:54,800 --> 01:43:58,850
uh, my God,
I'm going to be revealed.
1908
01:43:58,960 --> 01:44:03,124
In other words, I'm adequate
to do any sort of a task, urn...
1909
01:44:03,200 --> 01:44:07,171
but I'm not adequate, uh,
just to - to be a human being.
1910
01:44:07,240 --> 01:44:09,163
I mean, in other words, I'm not, uh -
1911
01:44:09,240 --> 01:44:12,528
If I'm just, uh, trapped there
and I'm not allowed to do things...
1912
01:44:12,640 --> 01:44:16,042
but all I can do is just,
urn, be there...
1913
01:44:16,120 --> 01:44:18,361
well, I'll just fail.
1914
01:44:18,480 --> 01:44:20,482
I mean, in other words, uh...
1915
01:44:20,560 --> 01:44:22,961
I can pass any other sort of a test...
1916
01:44:23,040 --> 01:44:26,840
and, you know, I can even get an “A”
if I put in the required effort...
1917
01:44:26,920 --> 01:44:29,048
but I just don't, uh -
1918
01:44:29,120 --> 01:44:31,851
I just don't have a clue
how to pass this test.
1919
01:44:31,920 --> 01:44:35,367
I mean - I mean, of course,
I realize this isn't a test...
1920
01:44:35,440 --> 01:44:38,205
but, urn, I see it as a test...
1921
01:44:38,280 --> 01:44:40,328
and I feel I'm going to fail it.
1922
01:44:40,400 --> 01:44:42,368
I mean, it's - it's very scary.
1923
01:44:42,440 --> 01:44:46,684
I just feel, uh, just totally at sea.
I mean -
1924
01:44:46,800 --> 01:44:49,246
Well, you know,
I could imagine a life, Wally...
1925
01:44:49,320 --> 01:44:54,121
in which each day would become
an incredible, monumental, creative task...
1926
01:44:54,200 --> 01:44:56,362
and we're not necessarily up to it.
1927
01:44:56,440 --> 01:44:59,922
I mean, if you felt like walking out on
the person you live with, you'd walk out.
1928
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:02,002
Then if you felt like it,
you'd come back.
1929
01:45:02,080 --> 01:45:05,766
But meanwhile, the other person
would have reacted to your walking out.
1930
01:45:05,840 --> 01:45:09,083
It would be a life of such feeling.
1931
01:45:09,160 --> 01:45:11,527
I mean, what was amazing
in the workshops I led...
1932
01:45:11,600 --> 01:45:15,241
was how quickly people seemed
to fall into enthusiasm...
1933
01:45:15,320 --> 01:45:19,644
celebration, joy, wonder,
abandon, wildness, tenderness.
1934
01:45:19,720 --> 01:45:21,882
Could we stand to live like that?
1935
01:45:22,000 --> 01:45:25,004
Yeah, I think it's that moment of contact
with another person.
1936
01:45:25,080 --> 01:45:27,003
I mean, that's what scares us.
1937
01:45:27,080 --> 01:45:30,482
I mean, that moment of being
face to face with another person.
1938
01:45:30,560 --> 01:45:32,483
I mean, now -
[Laughs]
1939
01:45:32,560 --> 01:45:36,849
You wouldn't think it would be so frightening.
It's strange that we find it so frightening.
1940
01:45:36,920 --> 01:45:38,843
Well, it isn't that strange.
1941
01:45:38,920 --> 01:45:42,083
I mean, first of all, there are some
pretty good reasons for being frightened.
1942
01:45:42,160 --> 01:45:46,529
I mean, you know, the human being
is a complex and dangerous creature.
1943
01:45:46,600 --> 01:45:49,285
I mean, really,
if you start living each moment?
1944
01:45:49,360 --> 01:45:51,283
Christ, that's quite a challenge.
1945
01:45:51,360 --> 01:45:54,967
I mean, if you really reach out and you're
really in touch with the other person...
1946
01:45:55,040 --> 01:45:58,522
well, that really is something
to strive for, I think, I really do.
1947
01:45:58,600 --> 01:46:01,251
Yeah, it's just so pathetic
if one doesn't do that.
1948
01:46:01,360 --> 01:46:05,763
Of course there's a problem, because the closer
you come, I think, to another human being...
1949
01:46:05,880 --> 01:46:08,963
the more completely mysterious -
and unreachable -
1950
01:46:09,040 --> 01:46:10,963
that person becomes.
1951
01:46:11,040 --> 01:46:14,681
I mean, you know, you have to reach out,
you have to go back and forth with them...
1952
01:46:14,760 --> 01:46:18,765
and you have to relate, and yet you're
relating to a ghost or something.
1953
01:46:18,840 --> 01:46:20,808
I don't know,
because we're ghosts.
1954
01:46:20,880 --> 01:46:24,680
We're phantoms.
Who are we?
1955
01:46:24,760 --> 01:46:27,650
And that's to face, to confront the fact
that you're completely alone.
1956
01:46:27,720 --> 01:46:30,485
And to accept that you're alone
is to accept death.
1957
01:46:30,560 --> 01:46:33,803
You mean, because somehow when you
are alone, you're alone with death.
1958
01:46:33,880 --> 01:46:38,124
I mean, nothing's obstructing your
view of it, or something like that.
1959
01:46:38,200 --> 01:46:39,964
Right.
1960
01:46:40,080 --> 01:46:43,004
You know, if I understood it correctly,
I think, uh, Heidegger said...
1961
01:46:43,080 --> 01:46:47,324
that, uh, if you were to experience
your own being to the full...
1962
01:46:47,400 --> 01:46:52,361
you'd be experiencing the decay
of that being toward death...
1963
01:46:52,440 --> 01:46:54,841
as a part of your experience.
1964
01:46:54,920 --> 01:46:58,083
You know, in the sexual act there's
that moment of complete forgetting...
1965
01:46:58,160 --> 01:46:59,844
which is so incredible.
1966
01:46:59,920 --> 01:47:02,161
Then in the next moment,
you start to think about things:
1967
01:47:02,200 --> 01:47:04,487
work on the play,
what you've got to do tomorrow.
1968
01:47:04,560 --> 01:47:08,007
I don't know if this is true of you,
but I think it must be quite common.
1969
01:47:08,080 --> 01:47:10,606
The world comes in quite fast.
1970
01:47:10,680 --> 01:47:14,162
Now, that again may be because we're afraid
to stay in that place of forgetting...
1971
01:47:14,280 --> 01:47:16,362
because that, again, is close to death.
1972
01:47:16,440 --> 01:47:18,807
Like people
who are afraid to go to sleep.
1973
01:47:18,880 --> 01:47:22,771
In other words, you interrelate, and you
don't know what the next moment will bring.
1974
01:47:22,840 --> 01:47:24,842
And to not know
what the next moment will bring...
1975
01:47:24,920 --> 01:47:27,048
brings you closer
to a perception of death.
1976
01:47:27,120 --> 01:47:30,761
You see, that's why I think
that people have affairs.
1977
01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:33,281
I mean, you know, in the theater,
if you get good reviews...
1978
01:47:33,360 --> 01:47:35,806
you feel for a moment
that you've got your hands on something.
1979
01:47:35,880 --> 01:47:38,087
You know what I mean?
I mean, it's a good feeling.
1980
01:47:38,160 --> 01:47:40,481
But then that feeling goes quite quickly.
1981
01:47:40,560 --> 01:47:43,882
And once again you don't know
quite what you should do next.
1982
01:47:43,960 --> 01:47:45,644
What'll happen?
1983
01:47:45,720 --> 01:47:48,246
Well, have an affair,
and up to a certain point...
1984
01:47:48,320 --> 01:47:51,051
you can really feel
that you're on firm ground, you know.
1985
01:47:51,120 --> 01:47:54,727
There's a sexual conquest to be made.
There are different questions.
1986
01:47:54,800 --> 01:47:56,723
Does she enjoy the ears being nibbled?
1987
01:47:56,840 --> 01:48:00,367
How intensely can you talk about Schopenhauer
at some elegant French restaurant?
1988
01:48:00,440 --> 01:48:02,807
Whatever nonsense it is.
1989
01:48:02,880 --> 01:48:06,885
It's all, I think, to give you the
semblance that there's firm earth.
1990
01:48:07,000 --> 01:48:10,971
Well, have a real relationship
with a person that goes on for years -
1991
01:48:11,040 --> 01:48:13,691
That's completely unpredictable.
1992
01:48:13,760 --> 01:48:17,048
Then you've cut off all your ties to the
land, and you're sailing into the unknown...
1993
01:48:17,120 --> 01:48:19,566
into uncharted seas.
1994
01:48:19,680 --> 01:48:24,368
I mean, you know, people hold on to these
images of father, mother, husband, wife...
1995
01:48:24,440 --> 01:48:26,363
again for the same reason -
1996
01:48:26,440 --> 01:48:29,967
'cause they seem to provide
some firm ground.
1997
01:48:30,040 --> 01:48:32,407
But there's no wife there.
1998
01:48:32,480 --> 01:48:34,528
What does that mean?
A wife.
1999
01:48:34,600 --> 01:48:37,331
A husband. A son.
2000
01:48:37,400 --> 01:48:39,402
A baby holds your hands...
2001
01:48:39,480 --> 01:48:43,121
and then suddenly there's this huge man
lifting you off the ground...
2002
01:48:43,200 --> 01:48:45,123
and then he's gone.
2003
01:48:45,200 --> 01:48:47,168
Where's that son?
2004
01:49:06,280 --> 01:49:10,330
[ Wally Narrating ]All the other customers
seemed to have left hours ago.
2005
01:49:10,400 --> 01:49:14,644
We got the bill,
and André paid for our dinner.
2006
01:49:14,720 --> 01:49:16,210
Really?
2007
01:49:18,560 --> 01:49:21,689
[ Conversing, indistinct]
2008
01:49:42,480 --> 01:49:44,767
[ Wally Narrating]
I treated myself to a taxi.
2009
01:49:46,200 --> 01:49:48,726
I rode home through the city streets.
2010
01:49:49,920 --> 01:49:52,605
There wasn't a street
there wasn't a building...
2011
01:49:52,680 --> 01:49:55,968
that wasn't connected
to some memory in my mind.
2012
01:49:57,400 --> 01:50:00,529
There, I was buying a suit
with my father.
2013
01:50:03,120 --> 01:50:06,647
There, I was having
an ice cream soda after school.
2014
01:50:10,720 --> 01:50:14,167
When I finally came in,
Debby was home from work...
2015
01:50:14,240 --> 01:50:17,722
and I told her everything
about my dinner with André.
184393
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