All language subtitles for Misha.And.The.Wolves.2021.720p.WEBRip.x264.AAC-[YTS.MX]

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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,360 [evocative music slowly rising] 4 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,920 {\an8}[birds twittering] 5 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,520 I can still remember laying in my bed, 6 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,960 my little night-light on, crying over this. 7 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,160 I was so overwhelmed by this story. 8 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,640 {\an8}Misha Defonseca checked every single box 9 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,680 for the type of woman that we looked for to interview on Exceptional Women. 10 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:58,920 I'll just take a beat and then turn. 11 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:00,640 I got you. Okay. 12 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:01,960 Stand by. 13 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:06,920 Her story originated in Belgium, 14 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,560 but she was living in Millis, Massachusetts, 15 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,440 20 miles away from the radio station. 16 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,120 {\an8}You wanna give me a countdown? 17 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,080 {\an8}[radio producer] Three, two, one. 18 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,840 ♪ {\an8}Magic 106.7… ♪ 19 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,640 [Candy O'Terry] {\an8}Sometimes a story is so astonishing 20 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:29,160 {\an8}it seems unbelievable. 21 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:35,240 Sometimes the sadness one person feels is so big, it's overpowering. 22 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,920 And sometimes courage is so monumental, it humbles you. 23 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:49,240 [Pat Cunningham] Back in the late '80s, we had been living in Millis for 37 years. 24 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:51,680 Pretty much everybody knew everybody. 25 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:53,920 And we had new neighbors. 26 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,200 They were a couple from Belgium, Maurice and Misha. 27 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,320 There's a saying in Millis, "Small town, big family." 28 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,800 It's a small-knit community, and we became friends. 29 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:10,080 [cat meows and purrs] 30 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:11,720 You want a little kiss? 31 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:17,320 [Pat] Misha was a very nice person. Very friendly, um, caring. 32 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:23,600 I had never met anybody that had a relationship with animals as did Misha. 33 00:02:24,640 --> 00:02:27,320 There were many, many cats. 34 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,160 [inaudible] 35 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,720 Eccentric personality, for sure. 36 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,200 I was there one day having tea, 37 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,640 and she told me about her life during the war and so forth. 38 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:41,080 She went into some detail. 39 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,160 [Candy over radio] Let me bring you into the life of a little girl named Misha. 40 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,440 She was waiting for her father to pick her up from school one day, 41 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:50,920 and he never came. 42 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:52,440 [poignant music plays] 43 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,880 My mouth just dropped on the floor. 44 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,840 [Candy] Instead a woman tapped her on the shoulder and said, "Come with me." 45 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,640 This little girl was taken into a home with a family she didn't know. 46 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,160 She was given a new name and different clothes. 47 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:12,320 [explosions] 48 00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:15,280 [Candy] When she was only seven years old, 49 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,120 she walked alone for years, 50 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:22,120 through Nazi-occupied countries, across thousands of miles, 51 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,240 in search of her deported parents. 52 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,760 Misha is now a grown-up Jewish woman 53 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,840 living in the Boston area. She's a Holocaust survivor. 54 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,480 And she's here to tell her astonishing story 55 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:42,800 of courage and survival. 56 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,080 I think about my parents every day. 57 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,600 My mother's name was Gerusha, 58 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,080 and my father, Robert. 59 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:58,400 Reuven in Hebrew. 60 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:00,880 But our surname, 61 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:03,840 I don't think I ever knew. 62 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,080 I never discovered what became of my parents. 63 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,160 Not where they went or how they died. 64 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,760 To this day, I do not know. 65 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,000 [sustained, dramatic music plays] 66 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:32,640 [director] Settle, everybody, please. 67 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,080 So, Misha, tell me the story of the first time 68 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,280 you spoke about your experiences. 69 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:41,360 [inhales deeply] 70 00:04:42,280 --> 00:04:43,680 One day… 71 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:46,720 in a synagogue… 72 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,320 on the occasion of Yom HaShoah, the day of remembrance… 73 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,680 I was asked to talk about me and my story. 74 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,600 My husband convinced me to do it, 75 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,480 telling me it would free me. 76 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,120 When I went up to the bimah, 77 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:16,160 {\an8}I suddenly realized that I was going to speak for the first time. 78 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:21,520 I burst into tears. 79 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:27,480 And slowly, snatches, I began to tell. 80 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,240 I was cold and I had to keep going 81 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,000 one step at a time. 82 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,040 That is survival. 83 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,080 You have to go forward 84 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:41,400 one step at a time. 85 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,800 I was, like, mesmerized. 86 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,600 People never knew about her being a Holocaust survivor. 87 00:05:54,280 --> 00:05:56,600 I had tears in my eyes. 88 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,760 {\an8}She was hungry. She was cold. 89 00:05:58,840 --> 00:06:01,080 {\an8}She was lonely. She wanted her parents. 90 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,400 How did this person survive? 91 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:09,800 [Misha Defonseca] I told myself, 92 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,280 "They think I'm alive." 93 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:13,400 "If they think I'm alive, 94 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:15,080 I can't let them down." 95 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,040 "So I have to keep going." 96 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,840 [Jane Daniel] You could've heard a pin drop. 97 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,680 Everybody there was just completely entranced with her story. 98 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:26,920 [people clamoring] 99 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:28,720 [dramatic music playing] 100 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,400 [Jane] I never expected that I was gonna hear what I heard. 101 00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:36,480 When Misha was seven years old, her parents were arrested by the Nazis, 102 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,920 and she was told that they had been deported. 103 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,120 She was placed in the care of a Catholic family 104 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:45,960 called de Wael. 105 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:47,840 So it was a safe place for her. 106 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,400 They gave her a new identity, Monique de Wael. 107 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,160 The deception saved her. 108 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,320 But she felt very alienated there. 109 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,080 [delicate music playing] 110 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,880 [Defonseca] I ended up in a family that didn't love me. 111 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:04,680 That's the least you could say. 112 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,960 They hated me there. They would call me worthless. 113 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,800 [Jane] There was a grandfather in that foster family who was kindly to her. 114 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,400 [Defonseca] He told me my parents were in Germany. 115 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,480 He showed me with a compass that it was in the east. 116 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,040 So Germany didn't seem that far. 117 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,840 [Jane] At that point, Misha made a tremendous decision. 118 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,800 It turned her whole life upside down. 119 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,000 She decided, at the age of seven, 120 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,440 she was going to walk to Germany to find her parents. 121 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:49,400 [pants] 122 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,600 [Jane] So she took her little compass and took some supplies 123 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,320 and started heading east. 124 00:07:58,200 --> 00:07:59,520 I know exactly what I need. 125 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:03,160 I need the basic. 126 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,680 I need food, something to drink, 127 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:09,560 to have a knife for protection. 128 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,840 The first night I slept below a bridge. 129 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:21,880 It was not far from home. 130 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:24,920 [pants] 131 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,800 It was absolutely naive when I think about it today. 132 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:36,440 On the map, Belgium seemed really small, and Germany was really close. 133 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,040 But if I went back, what would I find? 134 00:08:41,680 --> 00:08:42,760 [cries echoing] 135 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,320 [Defonseca] Nothing was waiting for me back there. 136 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:50,560 And I had the idea to find my parents. 137 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,520 So I had to finish it. 138 00:08:54,560 --> 00:08:56,880 [panting] 139 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,360 Each time I approach a village, I see devastation. 140 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,800 [Jane] What she experienced as a child, 141 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:11,800 having to hide from the Nazis, 142 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,600 being alone in the forest, 143 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:18,320 having to steal food, 144 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:20,760 freezing temperatures… 145 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:22,880 She had had a nightmare childhood. 146 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:26,360 She had been traumatized by this. 147 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:32,840 [Defonseca] Killing… 148 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,080 I saw killing. 149 00:09:37,680 --> 00:09:39,120 [inaudible] 150 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:40,600 [Defonseca] The dead people. 151 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,680 It was really desperate. 152 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,800 [plaintive music playing] 153 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,320 [Defonseca] I dreamed of seeing my parents. 154 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,760 So I stayed deeply in the woods away from the war. 155 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:02,200 [Jane] When she was in the woods, 156 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,280 she was away from people being sent to concentration camps. 157 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:12,240 She was away from the horror that was happening in the cities. 158 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,760 [plaintive music continues] 159 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,960 -[Jane] She was with birds and flowers. -[bird chirping] 160 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:25,400 She said that's what saved her. 161 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,400 [Defonseca] I completely gave in to the wildlife. 162 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,440 I saw this wonderful world with animals… 163 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:40,000 in peace, 164 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:42,400 living normally, 165 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:44,600 eating just what they need, 166 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:47,160 not killing more than they need. 167 00:10:48,560 --> 00:10:51,920 The balance was so… just right. 168 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,120 With animals I didn't need any words. 169 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,680 We were near each other 170 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:04,120 in silence 171 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:06,640 and understood without words. 172 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,200 [Jane] I was thinking, "This would make a fascinating book." 173 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:16,720 It was the early '90s. 174 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,360 {\an8}I had a small publishing company. 175 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:20,960 {\an8}When I say small, I mean tiny. 176 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,280 And I was looking around for a new project. 177 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:26,920 I was the first one that came along and said, 178 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,080 "Could we make this even more public?" 179 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,000 "Can we take this to another level?" 180 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,320 "I could probably make something big out of this." 181 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:37,680 "There's a market for this story." 182 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,880 Because it had an amazing twist. 183 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:42,320 [panting] 184 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,680 I remember I had just been caught by a farmer 185 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,320 who saw me stealing food from his farm. 186 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:50,800 [panting continues] 187 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,480 I run away, full of fear. 188 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:55,800 And he ran after me. 189 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,120 When you run for your life, you run very hard. 190 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:03,320 [panting continues] 191 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:04,600 And suddenly, 192 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,320 I had the impression that somebody was watching me. 193 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:14,600 I turn around and… 194 00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:16,040 [twig snaps] 195 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,360 And I see this magnificent animal. 196 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,440 To me, it was like a huge dog. 197 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,280 The wolf seemed alone and I needed a companion. 198 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:36,040 -[wolf howling] -It was a beautiful gray she-wolf. 199 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:37,800 [howling] 200 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,080 I look in my bag for something to eat, 201 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,280 and I give a piece to the wolf. 202 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:43,840 And she doesn't take. 203 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:47,720 [pensive music plays] 204 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:49,400 [Defonseca] It takes a lot of time, 205 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,480 but after a while, we would walk in parallel. 206 00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:58,920 I was able to see its generosity… 207 00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:04,760 to appreciate the strength it had. 208 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:09,960 I was able to live with it. 209 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:12,880 She was like a mother to me. 210 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,880 Much later, it was a whole pack of wolves. 211 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,280 I don't know how long I was with them. 212 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,680 They accepted me and protected me. 213 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,360 That was an amazing twist in her story. 214 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,560 It was like, "Who ever hears of that?" 215 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,280 "Wow, this is quite a story." 216 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,800 [Joni Soffron] Misha was very different from most people I'd ever met. 217 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,320 My first impression was, 218 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,080 {\an8}"She probably should've been an animal." 219 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:00,920 {\an8}"Or her spirit is an animal." 220 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:09,760 She spoke about being accepted by the pack but being treated as a low-ranking member 221 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:15,320 and that she had to exhibit submissive, low-ranking behavior 222 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,640 in order to, uh… to be with them. 223 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:28,120 Misha said the alpha male typically would eat first. 224 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,240 The others would lay around the carcass waiting for their turn. 225 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:35,720 They would leave little scraps, 226 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,800 sort of in close proximity to where she was 227 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:41,560 when they were finished. 228 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,480 [Defonseca] Wolves eat ten kilos in one meal. 229 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,560 The leftovers were more than enough for me. 230 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:55,720 Get it. 231 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:58,840 Go get your dinner. It's right there. 232 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,640 [Soffron] We became very good friends. 233 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:03,040 You got it. 234 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,200 -You got it. Good girl! -[Soffron] She visited multiple times. 235 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,560 She would hand-feed them the pieces of meat. 236 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,480 I think they sensed in Misha 237 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,480 that she was a friend, as opposed to a foe. 238 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,520 She had such a sense of being with them, 239 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,200 that it's like she belonged in there. 240 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,000 [evocative music playing] 241 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,040 [Defonseca] I had no reason to stop walking. 242 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:40,680 It's what I did every day. 243 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:42,880 [panting] 244 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,720 Day after day, month after month. 245 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,200 I have always the hope to find my parents, 246 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,280 because I figure, "I have survived till now, 247 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:03,200 and if I have survived as a child, my parents must have survived." 248 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,880 And this belief makes me continue. 249 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:11,280 [howls] 250 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,840 [Jane] I thought, this is a moral narrative. 251 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,360 It's the battle between good and evil, the innocent child and the evil Nazis. 252 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:20,520 And the child survived. 253 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,120 It had mythic qualities to it. 254 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,200 And it could take my publishing company, Mount Ivy Press, 255 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:30,760 from a little local happening 256 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,760 to a worldwide happening. 257 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,000 So I asked Misha if she would be interested in publishing her stories. 258 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,000 I brought it up very tentatively. 259 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,320 With everything I went through, 260 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,680 I'd learned to mistrust people. 261 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,920 [Jane] I don't think she was terribly impressed with me, 262 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,080 and there was no reason she should be. 263 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,200 The kind of book I had published before was a legal financial book, 264 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:01,880 not exactly her kind of thing. 265 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,520 [Defonseca] For more than two years I refused, 266 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:11,560 but my community and my friends said to me, "Misha, do it." 267 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,200 "For future generations." 268 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,600 I found myself in hell again. 269 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,680 [uneasy music playing] 270 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,480 [Jane] It was a painful process, 271 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,880 but it was as if she was compelled to tell her story. 272 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,080 As if it was some kind of a catharsis. 273 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:44,760 Everybody was stepping up. 274 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,160 All the foreign publishers, one after another, after another. 275 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,120 We were selling the translation rights all over the world. 276 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,880 {\an8}[tense music playing] 277 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,040 [Jane] My agent came back from California, 278 00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:01,480 and said, "Disney wants this. Period. They want this." 279 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,600 This was a case of a hot property. 280 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:10,840 [The Oprah Winfrey Show theme song playing] 281 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:13,080 [audience cheers] 282 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,080 [Jane] When the book was published in April 1997, 283 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,800 I said, "Let's see if we can get Oprah to do this." 284 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,640 Okay, this is one of my all-time favorite moments I'm having on television. 285 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:28,840 [Jane] At that time, Oprah had her book club. 286 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,040 If you were one of Oprah's books, 287 00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:33,720 you had a guaranteed sale of a million books. 288 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:35,760 It was like… That was the jackpot. 289 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,080 Then we'll meet back here in a month, and we'll talk… 290 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,040 [Jane] And they said, "We're interested." 291 00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:40,960 I love it! 292 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,680 So that's a big, big, big deal. 293 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:45,960 And we were beginning to say, 294 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,000 "We are heading into a monster bestseller here." 295 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:56,640 {\an8}[Soffron] Jane Daniel told me that Oprah was considering doing the Misha story, 296 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:02,400 and could they send a production crew here to film Misha in with a wolf. 297 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,040 So, I said, "Yes, of course." 298 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,240 I told Misha before we went into the enclosure, 299 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,880 this was an adult wolf, he was a very big boy. 300 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:21,480 His name was Petro. 301 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:22,800 [low growl] 302 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:27,680 [Jane] Nobody went in but Misha. 303 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,800 The sound man had his boom over the fence. He didn't go in. 304 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:32,000 [laughs] 305 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,360 So, Misha squatted down, and she's feeding this one wolf cheese. 306 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,600 And the wolf is very friendly. 307 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,080 Everything's going fine. 308 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,960 And then the wolf decides to put his paws on her shoulders. 309 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:51,320 [growl] 310 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,600 [Soffron] Petro jumped up on her shoulders, 311 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,120 and he was much taller than she. 312 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,600 And then all of a sudden, very quickly, the wolf opened his mouth… 313 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:02,640 [growls] 314 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,040 [tense music playing] 315 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:08,200 [Soffron] …and put her whole head in his mouth. 316 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:10,040 Very gently. 317 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:12,680 Fangs on both temples. 318 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,000 [Defonseca] I felt no fear. 319 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,360 Nobody talked about the big bad wolf to me, you know. 320 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:22,720 The wolf held her head for a minute. 321 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,760 We've stopped breathing. 322 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,240 Oprah's producer with her eyes like… 323 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,400 [Jane] And then just as fast as it happened, 324 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:34,000 it was over. 325 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,080 And at that point, Misha rears back, lets out a big howl. 326 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:41,840 I get goosebumps telling this story. 327 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,600 From the back, way back in the back of the pen, 328 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:47,640 we hear… 329 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,040 [wolf howls] 330 00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:52,200 …an "awoo" coming back. 331 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,360 When she howled, they immediately howled back. 332 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:00,600 [howling] 333 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,720 [Jane] There it was. You could see. 334 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,960 There's the connection between the human and the wolf. 335 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,920 [howling continues] 336 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,520 I saw it, you know. It was amazing. It was a shocking moment. 337 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,280 So, they had got a lot of really interesting wolf footage, 338 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,600 and I thought, "This is gonna make a great Oprah show." 339 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:25,400 The next step was that she was to go to Chicago for the studio portion. 340 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,080 [Soffron] Things were going swimmingly well. 341 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,680 And then, I began to see some tension 342 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:34,720 between Misha and Jane. 343 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:36,640 [sighs] 344 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,080 It wasn't very pleasant as time went on. 345 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,280 [Pat] The book wasn't selling very well, 346 00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:47,520 so Misha and Maurice, her husband, were having financial difficulties. 347 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,200 {\an8}So then she started selling things, from her house. 348 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:56,480 {\an8}And, um… 349 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,400 {\an8}I felt bad that they were losing everything. 350 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,200 [Karen Schulman] She kept saying, "I have no money. I have nothing." 351 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,480 "Jane Daniel's no good." 352 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:10,960 I felt saddened, 353 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,880 but then Misha was sitting at my table one night and said to me 354 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,400 she didn't wanna go on Oprah Winfrey. 355 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,440 I said, "Gee, Misha, I don't understand that." 356 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,400 [Jane] All of a sudden, Misha's not cooperative, 357 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:32,520 doesn't return phone calls, has one objection after another. 358 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,840 She doesn't wanna go, it's inconvenient, 359 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,640 she needs somebody to take care of her animals at home. 360 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:39,400 [cats meowing, purring] 361 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,440 [Defonseca] Jane made me so mad, so insecure. 362 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,960 My husband said many times to her, 363 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,440 "With a survivor, you don't use that kind of attitude." 364 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:54,440 [speaking indistinctly] 365 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,560 [Jane] Come on. It's Oprah. 366 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,160 You find a dog-sitter or a pet-sitter or whatever. 367 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:02,800 You make yourself available. 368 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:03,880 "No." 369 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,200 [purring] 370 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,800 [Defonseca] Well, the memory, the bad memory, came back. 371 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,960 I have a nightmare. I was very anxious. 372 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:15,040 [cat yowls] 373 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:17,720 [Jane] We tried everything. 374 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,040 I wrote her notes and said, "This is a million sales." 375 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,080 "No. No. No." 376 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:25,680 -[meows] -[whispers indistinctly] 377 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:27,080 I thought, "This is crazy." 378 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,160 "Any other author would be falling all over themselves to do this." 379 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:33,120 [sighs] 380 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:35,360 It never happened. 381 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,960 -[church bell tolling in distance] -[thunder rumbling] 382 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:40,680 [Jane] A year after the book came out, 383 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,000 there's a knock on the door, and I'm handed a big package. 384 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,200 It's Misha filing a lawsuit against me. 385 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,360 It's like, "Oh, my God." And at that point, everything stopped. 386 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,480 No other country wanted to do business with us. 387 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,800 We had a lawsuit attached to this project. 388 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,240 [Ramona Hamblin] The first time I met Misha, 389 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,200 I felt very compelled by the circumstances of the case. 390 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,880 [tense music playing] 391 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:16,640 It was clear to me 392 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:23,160 {\an8}that several things had, um, been done that were improper, illegal, fraudulent. 393 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,920 Misha was asking for the return of the copyright to her name 394 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:33,160 and for all of the royalties that she was due for book sales. 395 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,440 Jane Daniel saw in my life a gold mine, 396 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,320 and she took advantage of it. 397 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,920 [Hamblin] There was so much anger and bitterness 398 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,600 between the parties by the time that I got involved, 399 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,320 there was not much room for negotiation. 400 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,760 And it was clear we were gonna be going to trial. 401 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,360 It wasn't gonna settle out of court. 402 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,800 [sinuous music playing] 403 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,400 [Soffron] The sense in the courtroom was a lot of drama. 404 00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:08,000 The atmosphere was pretty tense. 405 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,400 And then, of course, the money comes up. 406 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:22,160 [Hamblin] We found that Jane Daniel had set up a company in the Turks and Caicos, 407 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,080 so that royalties that came from overseas 408 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,120 went directly into her account and never paid royalties on them. 409 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,320 We had documentation. 410 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,960 We had royalty statements to show that she was paid. 411 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,360 We had canceled checks that showed that she was paid. 412 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,680 So everything she was saying, we had documentation to refute. 413 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,360 But she could speak no falsehood. 414 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,240 You know, "Where's the money?" And I think the jury was very sympathetic. 415 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,360 [sinuous music continues] 416 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,520 [Hamblin] The jury was riveted. 417 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,360 In front of you is a person who'd survived the Holocaust as a child 418 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,080 and written a memoir about it. 419 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:10,960 They were engaged and absolutely enthralled by this story. 420 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,480 Misha was a good witness. 421 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,080 All what I lived is on the manuscript, 422 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:20,560 because it's my life. 423 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,240 [sinuous music continues] 424 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,880 [Jane huffs] It just made me look like a monster. 425 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,600 And I thought, "This is not going well." 426 00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:36,560 Jane was always fighting. She enforced what she want. 427 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,600 [Jane] It was a ten-day trial, and it was grueling. 428 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,400 The judge asks the jury, "How do you find on count one?" 429 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,760 The jury found unanimously for Misha on all counts. 430 00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:56,720 I mean, ultimately, they came in with a massive judgment against me. 431 00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:00,480 It was kind of mind-boggling to hear the number. 432 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,480 22.5 million. 433 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,120 So it was a very large verdict. 434 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,160 [sighs] 435 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:13,120 I am an optimistic person, but that hit me like a ton of bricks. 436 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,440 I was blown away. 437 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:16,520 [chuckles] 438 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,400 I said, "Are you kidding me?" 439 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,160 [tense music playing] 440 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,000 [Hamblin] The money damages against Jane Daniel 441 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,280 were largely based on Jane Daniel's testimony. 442 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,920 This was gonna be on Oprah, there was some contract with Disney. 443 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,680 There were things that Jane Daniel testified to 444 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,440 to really elevate the level of damages 445 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,680 well beyond what would seem supportable for a book like this. 446 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,360 So everybody paid attention. 447 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:51,920 People love a big verdict. 448 00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:56,920 [Jane] Disney had fallen through. Oprah had fallen through. 449 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,720 There were no millions of dollars. 450 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,040 It's an untenable position to be in. 451 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,880 A cruel exploiter of an innocent Holocaust survivor. 452 00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:10,040 You know, your world falls apart at that point. 453 00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:17,120 -[birds squawking in distance] -[rain pattering softly] 454 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,360 [Jane] After the trial, 455 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,640 this was the lowest point in my life. 456 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,640 I ended up going into therapy and being diagnosed with PTSD. 457 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,480 And I had horrible insomnia. 458 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,080 I was hanging on by my fingernails. 459 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,440 My publishing company was gone. 460 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,520 The copyright was taken away from me. 461 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,960 I mean, I was destroyed at that point. 462 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,000 I ended up doing a post-mortem on what had happened, 463 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,480 looking at it piece by piece by piece. 464 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,680 I was in my lawyer's office going through old records and documents. 465 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,560 I had no idea what I was gonna find. 466 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,760 I open a file, and it's Misha's bank account. 467 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,360 And it's in Misha's writing, and it's her signature card. 468 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,080 And on there, it says… 469 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:10,560 [dramatic sting] 470 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,120 {\an8}…date and place of birth, filled in in Misha's hand, 471 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:15,560 {\an8}and mother's maiden name. 472 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,120 All of a sudden, I suddenly get a flash. 473 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,960 [tense, shrill music playing] 474 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,400 [Jane] She knows who she is. 475 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:28,960 She knows where she was born. 476 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:30,480 [chilling music] 477 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,800 [Jane] She knows who her mother was. 478 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,160 This was stuff she supposedly didn't know. She lost her identity in the war. 479 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,160 This doesn't add up. 480 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,360 [tense music intensifies] 481 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,680 [Jane] Clearly, she knew a lot more about who she was 482 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:45,800 than what she had told me. 483 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:48,640 What else might not be true? 484 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,440 I had been owned by courts and lawyers. 485 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,400 [panting] 486 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,720 My life had been turned upside down. 487 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,080 I wanted my life back. 488 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,600 [music fading away dramatically] 489 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,040 [Jane] If I can prove that she's not who she's been saying she is, 490 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:05,720 I can overturn this judgment. 491 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,440 [rain pattering softly] 492 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,120 It was the dead of winter. The days were short. 493 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,120 I was standing in my kitchen, 494 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,600 and I thought, "I have to do something. I have to do something." 495 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,800 [suspenseful music plays] 496 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,920 [Jane] I started recalling all the things that had happened. 497 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,160 How I had met her, what had happened then, what happened this… 498 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:33,800 How did the lawsuit come about? 499 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:35,520 And then I thought, 500 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,760 "I'll write a book about the case. I'll do it as a blog." 501 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,040 I was writing my memoir of her memoir. 502 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,880 And maybe somebody will read it. 503 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,320 Talk about a long shot. 504 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,680 [keyboard clacking] 505 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,560 The next day, I get up, 506 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,280 I turn on my computer, and there's an e-mail. 507 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,240 And the e-mail says… 508 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,280 [Sharon Sergeant] "I think I might be able to help find out 509 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,160 what's the real story." 510 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,600 I did a timeline of Misha from a variety of photographs. 511 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,160 First from the book, 512 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,120 and then from other images on the Internet. 513 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,880 So I could get a sense of her life. 514 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:26,680 I wanted to know who she was. 515 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,680 {\an8}Who is this person that has just ruined my life? 516 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,160 {\an8}Each photograph I tried to analyze 517 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,320 {\an8}and see what kind of information I could squeeze out of it. 518 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,600 [suspenseful music playing] 519 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,360 {\an8}The first clue was Misha claims she was seven years old 520 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,760 when she was taken in by this foster family. 521 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,800 In the American book there was a series 522 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,160 of what they call polyphoto images. 523 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,080 And the polyphotos were taken at that time. 524 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,760 And I looked at the photos, and I said, [clicks tongue] 525 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,360 "No, this doesn't look like a 7-year-old." 526 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,920 {\an8}"This looks like a toddler, a three or four-year-old." 527 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,280 {\an8}Big bow in her hair, frilly clothes and chubby, chubby cheeks. 528 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:21,040 Something's wrong. 529 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,160 [suspenseful music rising] 530 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:27,720 The next photograph I looked at 531 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:33,000 was a picture who Misha said was her foster grandfather and grandmother. 532 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,320 According to the narrative, he's a rustic farm man. 533 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:44,400 I did a close-up of the hands of Grandfather, which were manicured. 534 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,800 {\an8}Did not look like a farm person's hands. 535 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,040 {\an8}And he had a ring on one of his fingers. 536 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,360 Yeah, it was not the kind of thing a farmer would wear. 537 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,680 And then the little dog on Grandmother's lap, 538 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,960 {\an8}that looks like a little house dog, not a farm dog. 539 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,080 So I thought, "Gee, that's strange." 540 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,880 {\an8}And that's when I started comparing the French and the American book. 541 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,160 I was looking at names and places and dates. 542 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,720 That was the big red flag. 543 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:19,680 [Jane] She called me and she said, 544 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,960 "Do you notice that Misha's name that she used in the French book 545 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,600 is different from the name she used in the American book?" 546 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,360 {\an8}In the American book, the name that she was given 547 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,480 by the foster family that took her in was de Wael. 548 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,720 What Sharon noticed immediately is the French book, 549 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,520 the foster family gave her the name Valle, V-A-L-L-E. 550 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:45,840 Why would you have two different names? 551 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,720 [suspenseful music continues] 552 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,480 [Sharon] There's too many discrepancies, 553 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,120 between the name changes, the pictures, and so on. 554 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,200 [music climaxes] 555 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,880 Fishy, yep. Definitely seemed fishy. 556 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,040 [director] Take a drink if you want. Just relax. 557 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,560 I know it's a nerve-wracking thing. 558 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,160 [Jane] If her story were true and I were doubting it… 559 00:34:11,240 --> 00:34:13,680 there's something particularly 560 00:34:14,720 --> 00:34:15,680 vicious 561 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:17,160 to 562 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,960 doubt somebody who's telling the truth 563 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:21,880 about something awful that happened to them 564 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:26,240 and the callousness that it takes to say, "I don't believe you." 565 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,680 And the harm you can cause by doing that. 566 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:30,520 That was in my mind. 567 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,920 On the other hand, what was also in my mind is, 568 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,680 "So many discrepancies." 569 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,040 Why would you be saying things that aren't true, unless you're crazy? 570 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:46,160 Maybe she's so traumatized that she's just lost her grip on reality. 571 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,400 How much did that explain? I didn't know. 572 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,520 I needed a lot of answers at that point. 573 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,240 We need boots on the ground in Belgium. 574 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,200 [train car whirring] 575 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,880 {\an8}[tense music playing] 576 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,640 [Jane] Sharon had a connection with a Belgian genealogist 577 00:35:05,720 --> 00:35:08,720 who herself was a Holocaust survivor. 578 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:11,280 As it turns out, 579 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,680 she grew up in the same area that Misha claims to have lived in. 580 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,960 During the war, I myself was a hidden child. 581 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,600 I went to a Catholic school, 582 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:43,280 and I became a very good little Belgian, Catholic girl. 583 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,760 I have no recollection of anybody telling me 584 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,160 what happened to my parents. 585 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,560 I have no memory at all. 586 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,800 [gentle, dramatic music playing] 587 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:08,840 I was about 40 and went through a sort of terrible breakdown… 588 00:36:11,720 --> 00:36:17,160 which led me to find what happened to me, in fact, 589 00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:19,960 {\an8}and to my parents and my family. 590 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,800 {\an8}And I started to make research. 591 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:32,600 I found out my father was deported to Auschwitz in September '42. 592 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:42,080 My mother was arrested in October in Brussels 593 00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:45,600 and deported to Auschwitz. 594 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,200 I was told that they didn't come back. 595 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,360 So, I went by car to Auschwitz. 596 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,240 I saw the camp… 597 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,440 where there was not a single soul. 598 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,480 The chamber… The gas chambers were exploded. 599 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,840 I found some candles, what we call Jahrzeit, 600 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:47,080 still burning in the rubbles of some of the gas chambers. 601 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,160 Before leaving, 602 00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:57,840 I had a Star of David done in dried flowers. 603 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,960 I just didn't know… 604 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:05,840 where to put it. 605 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,920 I couldn't put it at the monument. 606 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,440 So, finally, I chose the… 607 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:18,560 the little pond. 608 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,080 It floated there. 609 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,240 And I think that was the time that I… 610 00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:30,240 [swallows] 611 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,000 [softly] Sorry. 612 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:35,040 Sorry. 613 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:42,160 [swallows] 614 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,960 …that I put my parents to rest. 615 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,960 My parents, my grandmother, my cousin. 616 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,040 [Jane] Evelyne is herself a Holocaust survivor 617 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,080 whose story was very much like Misha's. 618 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:17,120 So she was the perfect person to find what was going on. 619 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:20,920 [tense music playing] 620 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,160 [Sharon] In the French book, the foster family had a surname of Valle. 621 00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:30,520 And in the American book the foster family's surname was de Wael. 622 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,280 To reconcile the name changes, 623 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,480 Evelyne went through the city directories 624 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,760 for the 1930s, 1940s. 625 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,240 [Evelyne] I came at least three days 626 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,600 searching for the de Waels and the Valles. 627 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,640 The name Valle was not in the phone books. 628 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,000 The Valle name didn't exist. 629 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:13,840 {\an8}De Wael, yes. 630 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:19,640 {\an8}There were many de Wael. Many, many, many, many. 631 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:23,560 [Jane] So, now you start to think, 632 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,200 the French book was distributed in Belgium, 633 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,640 {\an8}and if something about Misha's story is not true, 634 00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:34,160 it would be important for her not to put her real name in that French book. 635 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,040 There would be somebody over there 636 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,360 who would say, "I knew the de Wael family." 637 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:45,400 "I know whether or not she was around, or did she disappear during the war." 638 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:51,240 [Sharon] The fact that she changed the name in France and Belgium 639 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,680 from de Wael to Valle, 640 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,600 suggests to me that she's trying to hide something. 641 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,560 [Jane] Sharon and I both looked at this and said, 642 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,760 "Something's really wrong with this story." 643 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,600 So, at this point, the book had been taken over by a French publisher, 644 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,280 who had published it in 20 languages. 645 00:41:17,240 --> 00:41:19,600 It was a huge bestseller all over Europe. 646 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,840 She was speaking to schoolchildren all over the French-speaking world. 647 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,240 [Marie-Claire Mommer speaking French]  In 2005, 648 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,680 I was planning on creating 649 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,280 as a professor of psychology 650 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,840 a project on the story of this young child 651 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,640 who experienced all these adventures. 652 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:52,040 The project became a huge, magnificent exhibition. 653 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,880 {\an8}Then we have the idea 654 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,320 {\an8}to try and bring her to Belgium. 655 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,480 We watched her get out of the train. 656 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,800 It was a fascinating sight. 657 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:13,800 She was dressed in blue… 658 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,120 like a shining canary 659 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:20,920 with all its colors… 660 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:24,720 [chuckles] 661 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,480 …with two, 662 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,960 no, three big suitcases! 663 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,120 She came towards me 664 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,680 all radiant and beaming. 665 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,760 Right away, she exhibits 666 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,400 a very dynamic character, 667 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,000 very welcoming and very generous. 668 00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:53,000 When Misha entered the exhibition, 669 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:54,600 she collapsed. 670 00:42:55,240 --> 00:42:56,240 [applause] 671 00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,800 [Defonseca, in French] I was not warned of this, 672 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:02,200 so when I visited the exhibition, 673 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,480 I burst into tears 674 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,480 because it touched me very deeply. 675 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,960 {\an8}[Mommer, in French] She was so delighted to be there. 676 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,240 {\an8}But on the other hand, 677 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,440 we saw the sadness come out 678 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,640 and the tears, the tears, the tears. 679 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,000 It was very emotional. 680 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,280 [in French] We were all really traumatized by her story 681 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,080 and we all wanted to give 682 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,520 a bit of joy to this woman 683 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,760 by showing our creativity 684 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:39,920 and our courage, too, 685 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:41,960 to show what we felt. 686 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,480 [Jane, in English] In the book, Misha says that her parents 687 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,440 were arrested together by the Nazis and deported. 688 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,600 Although she didn't know their surname, 689 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,520 their first names were Reuven and Gerusha. 690 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,360 So, the next step was, Sharon said, 691 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,680 "I have access to the Nazi records of deportations." 692 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:02,600 "Well, I will take those two names 693 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,120 and see if there are two people who were deported 694 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,480 more or less simultaneously with those names." 695 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,800 [Sharon] When we examined the deportation lists, 696 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,680 they were not found as a husband and wife. 697 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,000 [Defonseca, in French] "I missed my parents terribly." 698 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,000 "My face was covered in mud." 699 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:32,120 "I screamed… 700 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,640 some nights, from the cold." 701 00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:36,160 "Later on, 702 00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:37,920 I got a second chance." 703 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,680 "I survived because I trusted no one." 704 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,560 "Because I avoided contact with humans." 705 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,760 [tense music rising] 706 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,960 [Evelyne, in English] During the war, the Jewish Defence Committee 707 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,760 had made lists of hidden Jewish children 708 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,800 with the name of their rescuer and the name of their parents. 709 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,440 These lists are now in the archives at the War Victims Services. 710 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,160 It was a real, real, real danger 711 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:26,320 that these lists would be taken by the Nazis. 712 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,400 Children would be found, 713 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,360 and be, uh, killed. 714 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:34,720 But it was quite clever. 715 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,400 There were four different booklets. 716 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,400 You needed all four to find the child. 717 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:48,080 But all four of them were in different places. 718 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,640 If any Nazi found a single booklet, 719 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,920 they would not be able to trace the child, 720 00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,120 but at the end of the war, 721 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,960 with the four different booklets, 722 00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:06,760 there would've been a way to find whose child it was. 723 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,440 And so I searched for Misha's parents. 724 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,520 No names of the parents. 725 00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:25,880 So, I knew there that there was something wrong. 726 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,360 And in the lists of hidden children, 727 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,920 they didn't have "Misha," and they didn't have "de Wael," 728 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:35,920 that is for sure. 729 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,680 She was not mentioned at all. 730 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:42,840 [tense music climaxes] 731 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,320 [Mommer, in French] Misha's story 732 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,320 had a snowball effect. 733 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,160 Already millions of books 734 00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:56,240 had been sold. 735 00:46:57,840 --> 00:46:59,080 And thereafter, 736 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:00,400 we had to work 737 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:02,520 to prepare the conferences 738 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,200 and get her to them. 739 00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,880 So, we were always together. 740 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,680 At that time, she would often 741 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,000 come back to our home. 742 00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:18,240 She would eat with us. 743 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,600 She was like a member of the family. 744 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,800 We had dozens of events. 745 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:34,080 Of course, we took her to them. 746 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,240 She was always welcomed 747 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,800 by the organizers 748 00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,720 and always with a lot of kindness and friendliness. 749 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,440 Everyone left the conferences 750 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,320 dazzled by this character. 751 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:06,840 [Evelyne, in English] I was stuck, really. 752 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,440 No findings but no proof. 753 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:13,960 No proof. 754 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:22,120 So that was the point where I thought that she could've been undocumented. 755 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,480 Some children were hidden 756 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,080 but not necessarily through organization. 757 00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:33,400 As extraordinary as her story was, 758 00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:35,520 I had to keep in mind 759 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:40,160 that she might have been a Jewish hidden child. 760 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,400 {\an8}[TV show music playing] 761 00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,960 [in French] We are going to talk about this strange and wonderful story. 762 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:48,920 Misha Defonseca is with us. Hello. 763 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:49,840 Hello. 764 00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,000 Thank you for coming to see us to tell us about this story. 765 00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,520 [Jane, in English] Now the stakes go up. I start worrying. 766 00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,640 I will feel a lot of guilt, if this is true, 767 00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:02,320 that I am digging into her past. 768 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:04,760 And what if it is true? 769 00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,800 [in French] Misha Defonseca is a witness of the Holocaust. 770 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:08,920 Hello. 771 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,360 [Jane, in English] How unfair to challenge her. 772 00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,640 And even if it's mostly true but not quite true, 773 00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:20,320 how unfair to disrespect what she's been through. 774 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,160 [in French] You have to go through all the tragedy 775 00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:26,720 and all the horrors. 776 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:28,000 It's very painful. 777 00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:32,040 I felt like I had been cast in a play that I didn't audition for. 778 00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,800 I didn't want the part. I didn't wanna be in the play. 779 00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,520 [in French] I have known hatred 780 00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,360 and I have known the rage to kill 781 00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,160 because it's my life or his. 782 00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:44,760 It was devouring me. 783 00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,920 [in French] Personally… 784 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:49,000 I live it every day. 785 00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:50,840 This had taken over my own life. 786 00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,880 [in French] I think about my parents every day, and for me, 787 00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:58,240 the Holocaust is every day. The memory stays with you every day. 788 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:03,000 [Jane] But I'd had this judgment hanging over my head for quite a while now. 789 00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:04,800 I had lost the appeal. 790 00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,280 I was looking at the possibility of being completely wiped out. 791 00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,840 So it was starting to get pretty uncomfortable, 792 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,280 but I needed to get to the truth. 793 00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,520 {\an8}So, when we had no Jewish records to support her story, 794 00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,520 the question is, maybe she's not even Jewish. 795 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:26,960 [Evelyne] If she's not Jewish, 796 00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:31,520 then she must be, most likely, Catholic. 797 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,360 If she was Catholic, perhaps she was baptized. 798 00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:40,320 [Sharon] Misha Defonseca's bank record from the trial records 799 00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,480 said that she was born in 1937, 800 00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,320 her mother's maiden name was Donville, 801 00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:47,960 and she was born in Etterbeek. 802 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,400 [Evelyne] Etterbeek, a suburb of Brussels. 803 00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:59,720 So, in Etterbeek, I searched for different churches. 804 00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:04,240 [Jane] So Evelyne went to the first one. The records weren't there. 805 00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,280 [Evelyne] Went to another one… 806 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,400 [Jane] No baptismal record that matched Misha's information. 807 00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:13,920 [Evelyne] And to the third one in the area… 808 00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:18,120 [Jane] As it turns out, the church had burnt to the ground. 809 00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,480 When we learned that, I thought… [groans] 810 00:51:22,240 --> 00:51:23,520 "We're probably sunk now, 811 00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:25,960 because the records probably were destroyed in the fire." 812 00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:32,240 {\an8}[Evelyne] But the offices, the presbytère, 813 00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,000 {\an8}was in an adjoining street. 814 00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:37,480 They were preserved. 815 00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:41,680 [inquisitive music playing] 816 00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,280 So, Evelyne was looking date by date by date, 817 00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:53,800 all the children born in that parish. 818 00:51:58,520 --> 00:51:59,840 I knew two things: 819 00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:05,400 Her date of birth, 12th of May, 1937, 820 00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,280 and the mother's name, Donville. 821 00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:22,200 [music climaxes] 822 00:52:23,720 --> 00:52:26,120 And in that book, I found her. 823 00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:33,320 {\an8}"Monica Ernestina Josephine de Wael… 824 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:42,120 daughter of Roberti Henrici Ernesti de Wael 825 00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:48,400 and Josephinae Germanae Barbarae Donvil." 826 00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:57,080 The revelation was that Misha's father's name was de Wael. 827 00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:02,080 So, at that point, it seemed that Monique de Wael was her real name. 828 00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,720 It wasn't a name given to her by foster parents 829 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:06,320 to hide her from the Nazis. 830 00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,840 It seemed like she was born Monique de Wael. 831 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,520 She was a Catholic. She was baptized Catholic. 832 00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:15,080 Her father was de Wael. 833 00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,400 However, it wasn't proof conclusive. 834 00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:25,080 Because in those days, they used to take names of dead children 835 00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,720 and give them to Jewish children, by way of hiding them. 836 00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,400 It was possible that the de Waels had taken in a hidden child 837 00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,680 and that their own child had died. 838 00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:39,800 I needed further proof. 839 00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:41,680 [director] So what did you do next? 840 00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,800 [chuckles] Off the record, this is a good question. 841 00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,480 -[crew chuckles] -[chuckling] What do I do next? 842 00:53:53,240 --> 00:53:57,880 [Jane] Evelyne figured out, "All right, where else can I find that proof?" 843 00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:01,760 She would've gone to school. 844 00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:09,400 I tried to find a school on the tram track that she mentioned in her book. 845 00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:24,880 [chuckles] And as I walked by, I hit the school. 846 00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:30,720 The door was open. 847 00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,200 I walked in and asked 848 00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:39,400 if they had any record of someone with the name of Monique de Wael. 849 00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:46,880 [Jane] So, we're biting our fingernails, 850 00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:49,080 to the point that they're practically bleeding, 851 00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:50,680 waiting for this information. 852 00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:54,840 {\an8}Either we've got the records or we don't. 853 00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,640 [Evelyne] And there on the register was her name. 854 00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:15,520 "De Wael, Monique." 855 00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:19,720 That was really the final proof, shall I say. 856 00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,600 Both the baptism certificate 857 00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,480 and her attendance in a school in Brussels. 858 00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,320 I got to the phone, and I picked up the phone and it was Sharon. 859 00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,000 And Sharon could hardly contain her excitement. 860 00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:36,800 She practically screamed into the phone, 861 00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,560 "We've got the records! We've got the records!" 862 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:47,680 That was the smoking gun. 863 00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:49,720 [intense music exploding] 864 00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:50,640 [music stops] 865 00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:52,560 [Jane] Now I've caught her in a lie. 866 00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:57,840 My life had been contaminated… 867 00:55:57,920 --> 00:55:59,400 [crewman] End board. 868 00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,160 [Jane] …by a whole spiderweb of lies. 869 00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:04,280 [director] Take 15 minutes, everybody. 870 00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:06,440 [dramatic music sting] 871 00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:08,640 [Jane] And here it is, exposed as a hoax. 872 00:56:09,240 --> 00:56:12,280 [Defonseca, in French] Could you pass me a bottle of water, please? 873 00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:16,360 -Thank you. -[Jane] I thought, 874 00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:21,080 "Now, the whole story that she has been telling in the book falls apart." 875 00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,800 [tense music rising] 876 00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:40,440 At that point, I knew she was not who she said she was. 877 00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:44,360 [chuckles] 878 00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,000 [Jane] Not only was she not a Jewish child 879 00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:51,520 hiding in the forest from the Nazis, 880 00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:56,120 she was a Catholic child safely enrolled in school. 881 00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:57,360 [growling] 882 00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,200 She wasn't anywhere near wolves. 883 00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:06,760 She was playing to an audience. She knew exactly what she was doing. 884 00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:13,360 Now we can see that this is not just a little white fib. 885 00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:17,760 This is a massive conspiracy over 20 years 886 00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:23,440 to propagate something that was a complete and total falsehood. 887 00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:27,480 This was not the real Misha. 888 00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,800 [chilling music playing] 889 00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:38,360 {\an8}[Evelyne] I had many feelings. 890 00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:46,360 I felt angry. I felt disgusted. 891 00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:56,600 I just saw the fake history, the fake identity, 892 00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:02,080 a way to get money out of the Holocaust. 893 00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:11,680 Somebody stole a very painful part of my life. 894 00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:18,320 [inhales deeply] I felt it for myself, for my… 895 00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,560 for all the hidden children 896 00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:26,880 and all the dead children through the Holocaust. 897 00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:29,480 Uh… 898 00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:35,880 For all the parents, for my parents, [inhales] 899 00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:38,840 but in fact for all the Jewish community. 900 00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:42,320 {\an8}[evocative music playing] 901 00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:44,400 {\an8}[wolves barking] 902 00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:46,920 {\an8}[shouts in French] 903 00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,280 {\an8}[Jane] At the point that we got those records, 904 00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:51,760 the book was a huge bestseller all over Europe 905 00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:54,800 and the movie had just come out. 906 00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:58,600 And the movie was called Survival with Wolves. 907 00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:01,640 [wolves barking] 908 00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:02,720 [howling] 909 00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:06,480 [dramatic music rising] 910 00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:10,960 [speaking French] 911 00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:18,280 [wolves whine, howl] 912 00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:26,520 [applause] 913 00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:28,760 [male host, in French] There it is, 914 00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:30,880 the trailer of Véra Belmont's film. 915 00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:33,520 It's very touching to see you both here, 916 00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:35,800 the real person and little Mathilde. 917 00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:37,640 You seem very emotional. 918 00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:41,600 It's as if you are reliving this story every time you see the film? 919 00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:43,360 Yes, that's right. 920 00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:45,960 That's right. It's very difficult. 921 00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:51,480 Do you recognize yourself in Mathilde's acting? 922 00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:53,000 Absolutely, absolutely. 923 00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,920 It's very well expressed. 924 00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:57,920 She plays magnificently. 925 00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,600 She conveys the emotions very well. 926 01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:05,240 It was the thought of my mother that kept me going. 927 01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:07,080 There is a scene in the film 928 01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:10,000 which to me is extraordinary. 929 01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:14,400 The one where she falls out of the train and she says… 930 01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:15,800 [inaudible] 931 01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:19,440 {\an8}[haunting orchestral music taking over] 932 01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:30,600 [in French] Cinema, with a beautiful film inspired by a true story. 933 01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:31,960 [in French] You're great. 934 01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:34,240 -You're a great actress. -[chuckles] 935 01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:37,000 [in French] This story is very, very moving. 936 01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:40,800 An incredible story and yet a true story. 937 01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:42,880 [overlapping conversations] 938 01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:44,640 [haunting music climaxing] 939 01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:46,320 [in French] Cut! Excellent. 940 01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:48,840 [in English] It premiered in Paris. 941 01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:50,520 "Based on a true story." 942 01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:53,240 And here we're holding these documents. 943 01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:58,240 So we thought, "Let's go with this. Let's put it on my blog, 944 01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:01,480 and let's e-mail somebody over there in Belgium." 945 01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:04,400 [tense music playing] 946 01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:05,800 The next morning we got up, 947 01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:08,440 it had broken front page of all the newspapers. 948 01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:13,920 [newsreader, in French] A book, then a film, 949 01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:16,560 supposedly an autobiography, but everything was false. 950 01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:21,400 [in French] It was an incredible story, the story of a young Shoah survivor. 951 01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:24,240 We had fired a truth bomb. It had landed. 952 01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:28,200 [in French] Surviving with Wolves, the bestseller that inspired the film 953 01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:29,600 released last month… 954 01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:31,880 And the whole fake thing blew up. 955 01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:33,040 …is not a true story. 956 01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:35,560 Everything is false. 957 01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:37,120 It was a big scam. 958 01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:48,520 [director, in English] House lights. 959 01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,920 I came home, I immediately went to my computer, 960 01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,720 I put in her name and there it was. 961 01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:59,400 [reporter, in French] The beautiful story was entirely false. 962 01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:01,200 In Belgium, her country of origin, 963 01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:05,880 historians have discovered Misha Defonseca is actually Monique de Wael. 964 01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:11,440 {\an8}I think I felt like my blood just drained from my body, you know. 965 01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:14,560 {\an8}How… How can this possibly be? 966 01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:17,960 I was angry. 967 01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:20,840 I was sad. I was hurt. 968 01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:22,520 I felt betrayed. 969 01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:24,040 I felt used. 970 01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:28,080 She became that close a friend to me 971 01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:32,440 that when we had a litter of pups born, we named one Misha. 972 01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:36,920 It was just heartbreaking. 973 01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:39,720 Absolutely heartbreaking. 974 01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:43,040 -Hey, baby girl. -[wolf whines] 975 01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:46,440 We were duped, just like the rest of you. 976 01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:50,440 [dramatic music playing] 977 01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:56,280 [Karen] That fact that she lied about her being a Holocaust survivor 978 01:02:57,080 --> 01:02:58,480 made me cry. 979 01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,520 Misha Defonseca played on sympathy. 980 01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:05,520 {\an8}That's how she became a wonderful storyteller. 981 01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:07,040 {\an8}Sympathy. 982 01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:10,440 That's how Misha Defonseca was able to fool people. 983 01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:11,720 Sympathy. 984 01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:14,840 [delicate music playing] 985 01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:18,120 [Pat] I burst into tears. 986 01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:23,880 I just felt so taken advantage of and lied to and all… 987 01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:27,320 {\an8}Ugh! The lies and the bitterness and everything came out. 988 01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:32,240 Some of my neighbors did give her quite large sums of money. 989 01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:36,600 We're talking $25-30,000 to help her save the house. 990 01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:43,040 She'd go to the rabbis and ask for donations from the temple. 991 01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:46,240 The entire community… 992 01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:52,120 that knew her, my neighbors, nobody talked to her again that I knew of. 993 01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:57,680 Everybody felt betrayed. 994 01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:00,720 Yeah. 995 01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:05,760 [pensive music playing] 996 01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:11,080 [Mommer, in French] There was a sort of anger that rose in me 997 01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:15,160 {\an8}which never left me. 998 01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,760 The students who took part in the project, 999 01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:26,920 the day I entered the class, 1000 01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:30,360 there was a state of revolt. 1001 01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:34,280 You have to imagine a pack in revolt. 1002 01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:39,520 Rants, tears, cries. 1003 01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:42,760 [exhales] They were standing up on the benches. 1004 01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:45,120 I was no longer in control, 1005 01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:48,800 and I usually contained my students very well. 1006 01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:52,800 I contacted Misha straight away. 1007 01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:56,960 I wanted to be honest and authentic with her. 1008 01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:02,360 But she said, "Don't worry." 1009 01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:08,240 "It must be the doing of the publisher in America." 1010 01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:14,160 [crew speaking indistinctly] 1011 01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:19,440 [Jane, in English] And then came the next twist in the story. 1012 01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:22,840 It couldn't have gotten more bizarre. 1013 01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:27,120 I said to myself, "I could never make up this plot." 1014 01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:28,840 If I did, somebody would say, 1015 01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:31,200 "This is preposterous. This would not happen." 1016 01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:36,800 [Marc Metdepenningen, in French] Every journalist dreams of a scoop. 1017 01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:46,120 {\an8}The question for me was, 1018 01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:49,160 {\an8}if her story is false, 1019 01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:51,520 then what is her real story? 1020 01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:55,800 What I simply did 1021 01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:59,920 was go through the Brussels phone book 1022 01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:03,680 where there are approximately 400 de Waels. 1023 01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:08,960 So I started to call them one after the other. 1024 01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:13,240 And at the 44th or 43rd name, 1025 01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:17,080 I stumbled across a woman called Emma de Wael. 1026 01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:20,920 [inquisitive music playing] 1027 01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:25,720 [Marc] My meeting with Emma, Misha's aunt, 1028 01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:28,560 was extraordinary. 1029 01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:32,360 She didn't go off in search of her parents? 1030 01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:34,200 [in French] Good God, no. 1031 01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:38,960 {\an8}She stayed with her grandfather and grandmother. 1032 01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:42,400 Emma told me 1033 01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:46,440 her niece had always been delusional, 1034 01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:51,280 that she would create imaginary worlds for herself. 1035 01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:55,160 I went and fetched her regularly 1036 01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:59,560 with the number 56 tram to Anderlecht 1037 01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:02,920 and brought her to Schaerbeek. 1038 01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:07,520 In the evenings, I took her back to Uncle Ernest. 1039 01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:10,680 [tense music playing] 1040 01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:11,760 [gunshots] 1041 01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:14,760 [Marc] Emma de Wael 1042 01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:17,960 told me the truth 1043 01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:20,960 about what happened during the war. 1044 01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:25,560 What happened to Robert de Wael, Misha Defonseca's father. 1045 01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:33,320 [soft, solemn music playing] 1046 01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:37,720 [man, in French] Robert de Wael worked at Schaerbeek town hall. 1047 01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:44,080 {\an8}He was really very patriotic 1048 01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:46,760 {\an8}and very engaged in his role as a reserve officer. 1049 01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:50,400 I met Jean-Philippe Tondeur by chance 1050 01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:55,840 but he had a lot of documentation 1051 01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:58,640 on Misha Defonseca's father. 1052 01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:04,960 So I went to consult Robert de Wael's file. 1053 01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:12,560 [restrained, dramatic music playing] 1054 01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:16,440 [Tondeur] On 10th of May, 1940, the Germans invade Belgium. 1055 01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:20,080 [explosion] 1056 01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:24,920 [Tondeur] They crush the Belgian army during an 18-day campaign. 1057 01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:34,640 The king surrenders 1058 01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:36,760 and Belgium is occupied. 1059 01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:43,040 Robert de Wael joins the resistance… 1060 01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:44,120 [bell tolling] 1061 01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:46,480 …and begins to recruit resistance fighters. 1062 01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:55,000 [Marc] As a resistance fighter, 1063 01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:57,600 Robert de Wael 1064 01:08:57,680 --> 01:09:00,920 was involved in gathering weapons… 1065 01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:06,000 activating intelligence networks 1066 01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:11,760 and transmitting intelligence to the Belgian government 1067 01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:13,560 which had gone to London. 1068 01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:14,640 [beeping] 1069 01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:17,640 Unfortunately, Robert de Wael wasn't very discreet 1070 01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:19,720 about his activities for the resistance. 1071 01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:22,760 [suspenseful music playing] 1072 01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:26,600 [Emma de Wael] He had a loose tongue. 1073 01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:30,440 He was proud of what he was doing. 1074 01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:32,760 Because I knew he had 1075 01:09:33,440 --> 01:09:34,720 secret documents. 1076 01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:37,560 He even showed them to us at home. 1077 01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:41,680 My father told him to be careful, 1078 01:09:42,320 --> 01:09:44,480 that he was becoming careless. 1079 01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:46,400 He risked arrest. 1080 01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:53,960 He was denounced by a Nazi collaborator 1081 01:09:55,040 --> 01:09:57,960 and was quickly arrested. 1082 01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:01,560 [Tondeur] Robert de Wael, his wife 1083 01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:05,400 and 41 arrested resistance fighters 1084 01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:08,360 are deported to Germany… 1085 01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:16,760 and sent to the Brauweiler Prison in Cologne. 1086 01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:22,920 The Cologne prison had a very harsh regime. 1087 01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:30,440 [Tondeur] He is interrogated by the Gestapo. 1088 01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:34,800 He starts to scream. 1089 01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:36,960 [chilling music playing] 1090 01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:39,840 Robert de Wael cracks. 1091 01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:52,400 [Marc] Robert de Wael made a deal in the Cologne prison. 1092 01:10:52,480 --> 01:10:54,440 This deal involved him 1093 01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:59,320 handing over the names of his fellow resistance fighters 1094 01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:03,720 in exchange for his wife being protected 1095 01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:05,680 and to once again see his daughter, 1096 01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:07,320 Misha Defonseca. 1097 01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:15,720 [Tondeur] In August 1942, after betraying his fellow officers, 1098 01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:17,720 as the Germans had demanded of him, 1099 01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:22,520 Robert de Wael got one last opportunity to see his daughter. 1100 01:11:26,360 --> 01:11:27,680 And that would be 1101 01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:30,760 the end for… 1102 01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:35,680 for Robert de Wael, who was later deported. 1103 01:11:41,360 --> 01:11:44,600 Robert and his wife Germaine would both die in the German camps. 1104 01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:52,000 We called her "The Traitor's Daughter." 1105 01:11:54,240 --> 01:11:57,000 Because it was said that her father 1106 01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:00,000 sided with the Germans. 1107 01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:03,560 [mournful music playing] 1108 01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:13,360 [Tondeur] The municipality of Schaerbeek would engrave a plaque 1109 01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:18,440 in the name of the resistance fighters who died during the war. 1110 01:12:24,440 --> 01:12:25,960 Robert de Wael, 1111 01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:28,000 whose name was listed last… 1112 01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:33,120 was later erased. 1113 01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:39,440 [Marc] On 22nd of February 2008, 1114 01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:43,520 once things were very clear, 1115 01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:48,800 uh, we published Robert de Wael's whole story, 1116 01:12:48,880 --> 01:12:50,160 the betrayal, 1117 01:12:50,240 --> 01:12:54,120 the falseness of Misha Defonseca's account. 1118 01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:56,600 And in the hours that followed, 1119 01:12:56,680 --> 01:12:59,360 a statement was issued. 1120 01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:02,880 This is Misha Defonseca's statement. 1121 01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:06,920 [haunting music playing] 1122 01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:13,080 "They called me 'The Traitor's Daughter' 1123 01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:19,000 because my father was suspected of having spoken under torture." 1124 01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:25,520 "This book, 1125 01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:27,600 this story, is mine." 1126 01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:32,120 [evocative music rising] 1127 01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:34,400 "It is not the actual reality, 1128 01:13:37,920 --> 01:13:40,040 but it was my reality… 1129 01:13:42,480 --> 01:13:44,000 my way of surviving." 1130 01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:49,000 "I ask forgiveness." 1131 01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:55,640 "All I ever wanted was to exorcise my suffering." 1132 01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:06,600 [growling] 1133 01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:11,640 [in French] I felt so rejected, 1134 01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:13,840 but I could not explain it to myself, 1135 01:14:13,920 --> 01:14:16,080 neither to my grandmother or my grandfather. 1136 01:14:17,120 --> 01:14:20,480 I am not the girl I thought, 1137 01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:23,240 but there are times… 1138 01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:25,280 when I still hesitate. 1139 01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:27,160 I say to myself, 1140 01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:29,240 "Did I or didn't I experience it?" 1141 01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:30,840 I have to think. 1142 01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:35,040 Particularly with animals. 1143 01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:37,440 Particularly with animals. 1144 01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:39,600 -[growling] -I can still see myself 1145 01:14:40,120 --> 01:14:43,040 rolling on the ground with wolves. 1146 01:14:53,440 --> 01:14:57,400 [delicate music playing] 1147 01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:01,920 Have you seen my lovely wolves? 1148 01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:06,000 They will always be 1149 01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:07,800 my wolves. 1150 01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:11,680 I will be always at their side. 1151 01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:16,360 Even if I know the truth now. 1152 01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:20,520 I am at their side. 1153 01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:22,600 [wolves whining] 1154 01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:25,320 I got into a bubble, 1155 01:15:25,400 --> 01:15:27,160 a world of my own. 1156 01:15:28,480 --> 01:15:31,520 And this world of mine was filled with animals. 1157 01:15:33,560 --> 01:15:35,920 Animals that defended me 1158 01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:37,240 against humans. 1159 01:15:57,080 --> 01:15:59,080 [birds twittering] 1160 01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:05,640 {\an8}[Candy, in English] Listening back to this interview, 1161 01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:09,040 {\an8}the first words in the intro to the show were… 1162 01:16:10,360 --> 01:16:13,040 [on radio] {\an8}"Sometimes a story's so astonishing, 1163 01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:15,080 -it's unbelievable." -[mouthing along] 1164 01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:19,760 That's pretty astonishing. [chuckles] That those were the first words. 1165 01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:23,960 And then it turns out, it's not true. 1166 01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:32,040 {\an8}I believed her. 1167 01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:35,440 {\an8}I didn't see anything in those eyes 1168 01:16:35,520 --> 01:16:38,160 that made me think she wasn't telling me the truth. 1169 01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:42,160 [Defonseca on headphones] Fear for me, at this time, was the German. 1170 01:16:42,240 --> 01:16:43,200 It was the… 1171 01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:48,080 [Candy O'Terry] All I was doing was looking for more truth 1172 01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:51,160 to confirm what I already believed. 1173 01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:54,240 In hindsight, it's chilling. 1174 01:16:56,120 --> 01:16:58,320 But for me, at that moment, 1175 01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:03,680 I was so respectful of someone's experience, 1176 01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:07,520 at what I think we all, as citizens of the world, 1177 01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:12,280 will recognize was the darkest time in the history of our world. 1178 01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:15,880 Far be it from me to question her. 1179 01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:17,840 [film projector whirring] 1180 01:17:22,240 --> 01:17:26,680 [Debórah Dwork] Questioning someone's claim to be a Holocaust survivor 1181 01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:28,560 is very difficult. 1182 01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:34,400 One brings a great deal of diffidence to those claims. 1183 01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:38,680 [projector stops] 1184 01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:41,680 But the danger of believing everything 1185 01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:46,200 puts history 1186 01:17:47,320 --> 01:17:50,000 and the historical reality 1187 01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:53,960 of genuine survivors at risk. 1188 01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:02,600 In December 1996, 1189 01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:08,360 I got a letter and a manuscript from Jane Daniel. 1190 01:18:09,400 --> 01:18:13,640 That manuscript was Misha: A Mémoire 1191 01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:17,880 {\an8}by a young girl during the Holocaust. 1192 01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:22,000 I called Jane Daniel 1193 01:18:22,080 --> 01:18:26,640 to explain why this narrative just did not work. 1194 01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:29,720 I said to her, 1195 01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:32,880 "I would not publish this book." 1196 01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:39,480 I have thought a lot over the years 1197 01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:45,320 as to why Jane Daniel decided to go forward with publication. 1198 01:18:47,040 --> 01:18:49,080 She clearly hoped 1199 01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:52,800 that the manuscript was true, 1200 01:18:53,640 --> 01:18:58,480 but she clearly worried that it was not. 1201 01:18:59,720 --> 01:19:01,680 I think it was greed 1202 01:19:02,720 --> 01:19:05,880 that powered this narrative 1203 01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:11,280 for Misha and Jane Daniel. 1204 01:19:13,760 --> 01:19:17,720 And then, as those sales figures rose, 1205 01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:19,880 more and more people 1206 01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:24,840 accepted the memoir as real and as true. 1207 01:19:28,320 --> 01:19:31,160 [Jane] I admit it, I had created the monster. 1208 01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:32,600 She was my monster. 1209 01:19:32,680 --> 01:19:37,240 I had created this person with enormous sympathy as a character. 1210 01:19:38,440 --> 01:19:40,640 Somebody who had suffered terribly. 1211 01:19:40,720 --> 01:19:43,880 Somebody who deserved respect and, in fact, awe. 1212 01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:47,600 And nobody wants to admit that they were tricked. 1213 01:19:47,680 --> 01:19:50,960 And I admit it, I was tricked by her, I believed her. 1214 01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:53,840 Everybody was seduced. 1215 01:19:54,360 --> 01:19:57,760 The American jurisprudence system, the judges and the juries, 1216 01:19:57,840 --> 01:19:59,560 we were all seduced by the story. 1217 01:20:02,680 --> 01:20:04,520 [Evelyne] It's human to believe. 1218 01:20:05,120 --> 01:20:07,560 Credibility is something else. 1219 01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:12,840 It's your need to question if things are not 1220 01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:19,760 that will help you discern what's true and what's not true. 1221 01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:24,480 [in French] You killed a human being with a knife? 1222 01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:27,800 Because I saw the rape 1223 01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:29,920 of a little girl. 1224 01:20:33,520 --> 01:20:36,000 [Mommer, in French] I have enough distance 1225 01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:41,160 to take a more analytical look at Misha's character. 1226 01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:44,280 When I saw that, I jumped 1227 01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:47,200 because he turned and came towards me. 1228 01:20:47,280 --> 01:20:50,040 At that moment, I only thought about one thing, 1229 01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:51,120 to live. 1230 01:20:51,200 --> 01:20:52,480 Because I wanted to live. 1231 01:20:52,560 --> 01:20:57,480 Misha created a world for herself, 1232 01:20:57,560 --> 01:20:59,800 a world of her own belief. 1233 01:21:00,440 --> 01:21:04,160 When he was close, I stabbed him in the stomach. 1234 01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:08,680 I slashed everywhere. 1235 01:21:08,760 --> 01:21:10,520 The throat, the face. 1236 01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:12,200 I was covered in blood. 1237 01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:16,160 It was horrible. 1238 01:21:16,240 --> 01:21:18,720 Writing this book 1239 01:21:18,800 --> 01:21:21,320 has caused me to relive… 1240 01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:23,560 [voice breaking] …my nightmares. 1241 01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:30,240 [Mommer] Misha sought refuge in mythomania, 1242 01:21:30,320 --> 01:21:33,960 and with time, 1243 01:21:34,040 --> 01:21:38,040 she slowly becomes 1244 01:21:38,120 --> 01:21:42,040 a character in her own story. 1245 01:21:42,120 --> 01:21:43,920 Every time I stabbed, 1246 01:21:44,000 --> 01:21:46,640 it was for this little girl, it was for the children, 1247 01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:48,440 it was for my parents. 1248 01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:51,200 [in English] I think that we would like to believe 1249 01:21:52,080 --> 01:21:55,400 that Misha Defonseca believed 1250 01:21:56,080 --> 01:21:59,120 that she was a survivor of the Holocaust. 1251 01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:01,280 I think we would like to believe 1252 01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:05,240 that we were not so naive, 1253 01:22:06,080 --> 01:22:09,520 that we believed it because she believed it. 1254 01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:12,600 And we would even like to believe 1255 01:22:13,200 --> 01:22:17,880 that this narrative has a redemptive purpose, 1256 01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:23,000 because it made right the wrong of her childhood. 1257 01:22:23,520 --> 01:22:25,160 I think it's nonsense. 1258 01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:29,280 There is no redemptive purpose. 1259 01:22:30,120 --> 01:22:31,760 We were so naive. 1260 01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:35,120 It was all a fabrication. 1261 01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:42,400 {\an8}[Evelyne] How I feel about her today… 1262 01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:46,920 [smacks lips] 1263 01:22:48,000 --> 01:22:50,600 Mixed… Mixed emotions. 1264 01:22:54,320 --> 01:22:59,720 {\an8}I think that she was a protagonist of this story, but she was not alone. 1265 01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:04,920 {\an8}There were other people that helped 1266 01:23:05,520 --> 01:23:07,760 to make this, uh, 1267 01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:10,840 biography be a bestseller. 1268 01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:14,440 [delicate music playing] 1269 01:23:16,160 --> 01:23:20,680 [Evelyne] Just talking about her right now, and the search, 1270 01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:23,760 and the years that went by… 1271 01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:28,600 Some pity… 1272 01:23:29,600 --> 01:23:30,800 Some pity. 1273 01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:33,880 Uh… 1274 01:23:36,280 --> 01:23:37,720 Some repulsion… 1275 01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:41,680 Maybe it's too hard a word, but… 1276 01:23:47,680 --> 01:23:50,760 I'm feeling some uh, understanding. 1277 01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:57,720 As a child, it must have been very difficult for her after the war, 1278 01:23:59,400 --> 01:24:04,720 the fact that her father was called a traitor, a collaborator. 1279 01:24:07,960 --> 01:24:10,600 She's both a victim and a villain. 1280 01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:13,120 She's both. 1281 01:24:14,240 --> 01:24:16,200 She is both in this story. 1282 01:24:18,440 --> 01:24:22,040 [plaintive music playing] 1283 01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:34,640 [wolf howling, distant] 1284 01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:07,480 [delicate, evocative music playing] 105818

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