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ECHOES FROM
A SOMBRE EMPIRE
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Dear spectators, I am the director of
the film which you are going to see.
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00:00:29,029 --> 00:00:31,520
I am deeply worried about the
main character of the film,
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00:00:31,831 --> 00:00:35,927
Michael Goldsmith, who has been
missing in the chaos of the civil war,
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00:00:36,269 --> 00:00:38,897
waged in Liberia
for many weeks.
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As we have lost any contact
with him,
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I should like to read out
a letter to you
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which he has directed to me shortly
before the start of shooting.
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It has always been very important
to him to explain his basic attitude...
10
00:00:52,719 --> 00:00:55,711
about shooting this film which
he wanted to do in the film itself.
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00:00:59,325 --> 00:01:02,624
"Dear Werner, I do not want
to take myself too important.
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00:01:02,929 --> 00:01:06,592
My story merely reflects an unimportant
rather bizarre isolation...
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00:01:06,933 --> 00:01:09,265
and nobody should make
the mistake and believe...
14
00:01:09,402 --> 00:01:12,371
that I was spending
sleepless nights since then.
15
00:01:12,572 --> 00:01:16,804
On the contrary: I was rather
cool, almost uninvolved,
16
00:01:16,943 --> 00:01:21,346
almost like a scientist observing
himself like an insect.
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00:01:22,015 --> 00:01:25,507
Neither was I really afraid
of my torturers.
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00:01:26,786 --> 00:01:29,550
There was only an almost
indifferent thought:
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00:01:29,689 --> 00:01:33,250
how far would they go
this time?
20
00:01:33,393 --> 00:01:37,523
I decided to follow the traces
of the past events...
21
00:01:37,764 --> 00:01:41,029
which still sound within myself
like a remote echo.
22
00:01:41,167 --> 00:01:44,500
I took this decision for
one single reason...
23
00:01:44,904 --> 00:01:48,863
which has absolutely nothing to
do with my personal experience.
24
00:01:49,275 --> 00:01:52,972
Nevertheless I want to start
this week already.
25
00:01:53,113 --> 00:01:56,139
In fact, I was dreaming,
for the second time now...
26
00:01:56,516 --> 00:01:59,280
that crabs intruded the earth...
27
00:01:59,652 --> 00:02:03,520
large, orange crabs
that came out of the sea.
28
00:02:03,656 --> 00:02:07,786
Nobody cared about them in the beginning.
But they became more and more.
29
00:02:07,927 --> 00:02:11,363
Finally there were so many
of them that I got scared.
30
00:02:11,664 --> 00:02:16,158
In the end, they covered the whole world
in many layers on top of one another.
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00:02:16,302 --> 00:02:19,430
The entire globe was covered
with them."
32
00:08:04,250 --> 00:08:08,584
Good day, Madame. - Good day, Monsieur.
- I am sorry to bother you on a Sunday.
33
00:08:08,988 --> 00:08:14,790
I have a particular reason to be
interested in the emperor, you know.
34
00:08:15,161 --> 00:08:17,959
He almost killed me once.
35
00:08:18,097 --> 00:08:20,895
I don't know if you realised that.
- No, I didn't.
36
00:08:21,033 --> 00:08:24,662
And there are a number of things
which I can remember.
37
00:08:24,937 --> 00:08:29,704
There are a number of things I remember
which I would like to put right with history.
38
00:08:30,009 --> 00:08:34,378
I would like you to explain a few things
to me. My name is Michael Goldsmith.
39
00:08:34,514 --> 00:08:38,814
Was it you who called on the phone?
- I did call you. Perhaps we could sit down?
40
00:08:38,951 --> 00:08:40,919
Yes, we can sit down.
41
00:08:54,100 --> 00:08:56,034
You know, Madame...
42
00:08:56,335 --> 00:09:00,931
I experienced quite a lot with
the Emperor,
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unreal experiences,
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as unreal as this room and
these photographs.
45
00:09:11,017 --> 00:09:12,644
It seems quite strange for me...
46
00:09:12,785 --> 00:09:16,414
to be sitting here and looking
at these photographs.
47
00:09:19,892 --> 00:09:22,122
You know, all these photographs...
48
00:09:23,296 --> 00:09:26,231
all these photographs remind
me to a certain extent...
49
00:09:26,465 --> 00:09:30,595
about an operetta which
he staged for himself.
50
00:09:32,305 --> 00:09:36,264
It is... it is quite strange to see...
51
00:09:37,543 --> 00:09:41,673
a collection of photographs of him
and of his family...
52
00:09:42,014 --> 00:09:44,574
with Dien Bien Phu,
with Napoleon...
53
00:09:49,255 --> 00:09:54,750
You know, for me, it is something
really fascinating...
54
00:09:55,528 --> 00:09:59,225
that a man who knew he was
condemned to death in his country...
55
00:09:59,632 --> 00:10:02,567
that he actually returns of his
own free will...
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00:10:03,002 --> 00:10:06,460
to present himself to the
authorities of that country...
57
00:10:06,772 --> 00:10:12,005
and probably to present himself to the law.
Er... can you explain that to me?
58
00:10:12,378 --> 00:10:16,576
What went through his mind
for him...
59
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to leave this castle...
60
00:10:20,953 --> 00:10:25,947
and to go via all types of routes
in order to go back to Bangui?
61
00:10:26,225 --> 00:10:31,356
He always wanted to return. - Did he know
that he had been sentenced to death?
62
00:10:31,564 --> 00:10:34,431
Yes, he knew that he had been
sentenced to death.
63
00:10:34,567 --> 00:10:39,231
And he thought that he was going to be able
to overcome all that just by being there?
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00:10:42,575 --> 00:10:44,566
Perhaps that went
through his mind.
65
00:10:47,780 --> 00:10:49,213
Yes.
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00:10:49,615 --> 00:10:55,212
And certainly the two men who were here
and who accompanied you in the plane.
67
00:10:55,888 --> 00:10:57,856
Do you know anything about them?
68
00:10:57,990 --> 00:11:00,959
Do you know who they were
and where they came from?
69
00:11:01,193 --> 00:11:04,253
Do you know which French service
they came from...?
70
00:11:04,397 --> 00:11:07,730
No... I don't know which
French service they came from.
71
00:11:07,867 --> 00:11:12,930
I know they came here
with a lawyer,
72
00:11:13,305 --> 00:11:16,399
a French lawyer.
- Oh, with a third person? - Yes.
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00:11:16,575 --> 00:11:19,601
Yes... and these three men
accompanied him...
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00:11:19,745 --> 00:11:24,148
er... during the journey to Brussels...?
- Yes, the lawyer stayed here...
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and it was the two others who
accompanied us.
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00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:32,719
The journey to Brussels... yes...
there was one who stayed...
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and one who took the plane
with us.
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00:11:37,096 --> 00:11:39,929
There was apparently
a moment...
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00:11:40,066 --> 00:11:44,264
when Bokassa did not feel at all
comfortable.
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00:11:44,637 --> 00:11:46,867
What happened in the plane?
81
00:11:48,140 --> 00:11:52,634
It wasn't that he didn't feel comfortable
any more but he was... he was just quiet.
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00:11:52,978 --> 00:11:56,470
During the whole journey?
- Not during the whole journey.
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00:11:56,716 --> 00:11:59,742
When they were due
to arrive in Bangui.
84
00:12:00,352 --> 00:12:02,946
Yes, and what happened then?
- It was then that he said to me:
85
00:12:03,389 --> 00:12:07,086
"Augustine, the journey has misfired."
I asked him: "Why?"
86
00:12:07,226 --> 00:12:10,491
He didn't say anything but he
thought the journey has misfired.
87
00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:26,109
It's five years now
since I was detained...
88
00:12:26,245 --> 00:12:32,912
with just a simple army pension.
23 years captain of the French Army.
89
00:12:33,252 --> 00:12:36,517
23 years and what do I
get from it as a pension?
90
00:12:36,756 --> 00:12:40,021
Well... let's say it amounts
to 7.000 Francs a month...
91
00:12:40,159 --> 00:12:43,560
but with... social security...
92
00:12:43,729 --> 00:12:48,098
with the deduction for social security
and the deduction for local taxes...
93
00:12:49,368 --> 00:12:53,361
and other things I am not left with
anything more than 5.998 Francs...
94
00:12:53,572 --> 00:12:59,511
that I get each month. What I want
is to return to my country.
95
00:12:59,779 --> 00:13:05,649
What I want is not the passport stories as
you have heard. Passports to go where?
96
00:13:05,985 --> 00:13:08,180
And where does the money
come from?
97
00:13:08,487 --> 00:13:12,184
You know very well that if you want
to travel with a passport, then you have...
98
00:13:12,324 --> 00:13:15,487
to pay for your ticket first of all, but what
am I going to use to pay my ticket with?
99
00:13:16,028 --> 00:13:18,189
And if you travel,
you have to stay in a hotel...
100
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in a country. But if I am going to stay
in a hotel what am I going to pay with?
101
00:13:21,734 --> 00:13:27,138
So all the false rumours and the passport
stories don't interest me one little bit.
102
00:13:27,540 --> 00:13:32,568
What interests me is that
the French government authorises...
103
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me to be able to go back
to my country.
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00:13:38,217 --> 00:13:40,344
It has stopped me,
there is a government...
105
00:13:40,619 --> 00:13:45,556
which has stopped me... well...
but I am addressing a prayer,
106
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a very earnest prayer to
President Mitterand's government...
107
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to let me go back
with my children.
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00:13:57,503 --> 00:14:04,170
Contrary to the French Constitution,
109
00:14:07,813 --> 00:14:11,909
of the Charter
of the United Nations,
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00:14:17,623 --> 00:14:22,492
of the universal declaration
of Human Rights...
111
00:14:25,130 --> 00:14:30,261
and also the Charter...
112
00:14:30,970 --> 00:14:35,771
of the Organisation
of African unity.
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00:14:37,810 --> 00:14:40,370
Mr. President of the French Republic,
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00:14:41,847 --> 00:14:47,410
in following the African policy
of Giscard,
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00:14:49,355 --> 00:14:51,983
do you look on
the Central Africa...
116
00:14:52,258 --> 00:14:57,059
as being a private hunting ground,
belonging to France?
117
00:14:59,031 --> 00:15:01,727
Mr. President of
the French Republic,
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00:15:02,501 --> 00:15:07,803
can you explain to us the
difference between...
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a military occupied
foreign country...
120
00:15:11,377 --> 00:15:14,141
placed under your authority...
121
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and the independence
of a sovereign...
122
00:15:17,416 --> 00:15:20,214
state recognised by UNO
and by OAU?
123
00:15:23,222 --> 00:15:29,286
Does Central Africa have a flag and
does it have a national anthem or not?
124
00:15:29,828 --> 00:15:32,422
If I feel like a prisoner...
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I am not very keen
at approaching this...
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00:15:36,769 --> 00:15:41,263
or that head of state so that I don't give
the impression of begging, you see.
127
00:15:41,407 --> 00:15:45,138
I don't like begging but I want to claim
my right to go back to my country,
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00:15:45,277 --> 00:15:47,745
head of state or no head of state,
I must return because it is my country.
129
00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,542
Because I have my parents
and my children there.
130
00:15:50,816 --> 00:15:53,649
I have my family and I have
my land to cultivate.
131
00:15:53,786 --> 00:15:57,153
Just look, Hadricourt, what can I do here
in the way of cultivation...
132
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or in the way of breeding?
I can't do anything...
133
00:15:59,959 --> 00:16:05,420
In actual fact he did not like this castle.
- It isn't that he did not like the castle...
134
00:16:06,265 --> 00:16:11,293
but one could feel in him
that he did not want to stay.
135
00:16:13,205 --> 00:16:16,766
It was just a provisional stay-over for him.
- Yes, just a provisional stay over,
136
00:16:16,909 --> 00:16:21,903
he had to go back home. Even if
he had been sentenced to death.
137
00:16:22,848 --> 00:16:25,840
Did he say that? - Yes. He said that
he had been sentenced to death...
138
00:16:26,051 --> 00:16:28,611
and that he preferred to go back home
to allow himself to be judged...
139
00:16:28,887 --> 00:16:32,015
and that if he had to die he would die
at home. - Did he actually say that? - Yes.
140
00:16:45,337 --> 00:16:47,271
You know, the children are
grown up now...
141
00:16:47,406 --> 00:16:51,467
and the children are not mine.
They do what they want.
142
00:16:54,413 --> 00:16:58,042
They are 17, 16 and 15 years old. When I
say to one of the children "you do that"...
143
00:16:58,183 --> 00:17:00,242
and if they do not want to do it,
I can't force them, can I?
144
00:17:00,386 --> 00:17:02,286
How did they spend their time?
145
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The children? - Yes, since you
have been back here?
146
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Been back here...
they do what they want.
147
00:17:08,527 --> 00:17:11,894
They go to school when they want.
I am called in by the police...
148
00:17:12,297 --> 00:17:16,324
I am called in by the school and all that.
They get themselves stopped... - Why?
149
00:17:16,568 --> 00:17:23,406
Because they go out at night!
They are minors.
150
00:17:23,809 --> 00:17:27,336
Well, when they take the train and don't
pay for their ticket, the ticket collector...
151
00:17:27,579 --> 00:17:31,174
he stops you, doesn't he?
- They do that as well? - Yes, they do that!
152
00:17:31,917 --> 00:17:35,910
And you have no control over them...
- I have no control over them!
153
00:17:36,055 --> 00:17:40,424
It was the father who had, who was the one
with the real authority over the children,
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00:17:40,559 --> 00:17:43,653
but I didn't have any. - And so when he
was there, they didn't do things like that?
155
00:17:43,796 --> 00:17:49,166
When he was there, no, they didn't.
- Do they know why he has been sentenced?
156
00:17:49,301 --> 00:17:53,635
They know why he has been sentenced, yes.
- All of them, even yours?
157
00:17:53,772 --> 00:17:58,937
Yes, the little one... He asked me
the question not very long ago.
158
00:17:59,078 --> 00:18:02,241
Because when he was at school and there
was one of his friends who asked him,
159
00:18:02,381 --> 00:18:04,349
"Is it right that
your father is in prison?"
160
00:18:04,483 --> 00:18:09,750
Then he gave him a kick and they
had a fight. He even cried.
161
00:18:09,888 --> 00:18:14,086
He came and asked me,
"Is it true that father is in prison?"
162
00:18:14,226 --> 00:18:17,718
I replied "no" to him.
- You said "no" to him? - "No"!
163
00:18:19,832 --> 00:18:23,700
I told him that he should not listen
to everything that people say.
164
00:18:24,136 --> 00:18:26,832
How many children
were there in total?
165
00:18:27,940 --> 00:18:33,242
How many children were there, how many
children did he have... does he have?
166
00:18:34,446 --> 00:18:39,179
He said he had 54 children.
167
00:18:39,318 --> 00:18:41,548
54 children...
- Yes.
168
00:18:41,687 --> 00:18:45,453
And how many mothers?
- There were quite a few mothers.
169
00:18:46,658 --> 00:18:48,649
You don't know how many mothers.
- No, I don't.
170
00:18:48,994 --> 00:18:52,020
Oh, my mother, er... I don't know her,
but I have heard of her.
171
00:18:52,331 --> 00:18:55,664
I have some photographs of her
but apart from that I don't know her.
172
00:18:56,502 --> 00:19:00,996
My father got to know her
when she was about 18 years old...
173
00:19:02,741 --> 00:19:09,044
when... when she...
when she left, I was...
174
00:19:09,181 --> 00:19:12,207
I was about 2 months old.
2 months.
175
00:19:12,351 --> 00:19:15,684
And tell me where he met her and how.
- I do not know.
176
00:19:16,822 --> 00:19:19,347
She was a dancer and,
well, she...
177
00:19:19,491 --> 00:19:22,517
It was normally she who was
allowed to be the Empress...
178
00:19:22,661 --> 00:19:28,122
but as it had to be someone from
my fathers country, then she just left.
179
00:19:31,970 --> 00:19:33,904
She was Rumanian.
180
00:19:37,709 --> 00:19:39,939
Yes, she is Rumanian.
181
00:19:40,045 --> 00:19:43,742
Me, I... er... I don't know very
much about my mother at all.
182
00:19:44,149 --> 00:19:48,483
I know that I left her. I was a year old.
That's all I know that she is Chinese.
183
00:19:48,620 --> 00:19:53,114
Do you have any photographs? - What?
Do you have any photographs? Please say.
184
00:19:53,258 --> 00:19:55,453
Sometimes there are people who say to us,
185
00:19:55,594 --> 00:20:00,429
"Is it true that you eat people?"
or things like that...
186
00:20:00,566 --> 00:20:05,196
But... But afterwards it's enough
to say no to them and then to yell...
187
00:20:05,337 --> 00:20:08,704
at them a bit, that's all! - And then that
they eat children, that's not right, is it?
188
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:13,334
Yes, eating children for example,
they know it's wrong...
189
00:20:13,478 --> 00:20:18,177
because he would have eaten us alive
since then. - Yes, he would have eaten us.
190
00:20:18,317 --> 00:20:22,651
If we had been one of his descendants,
we would have eaten all those around us.
191
00:20:22,888 --> 00:20:24,617
To have said...
192
00:20:27,626 --> 00:20:31,790
that I am a cannibal
and that I kill children...
193
00:20:32,030 --> 00:20:36,694
but... I am not a cannibal at all.
194
00:20:37,236 --> 00:20:39,568
By the way, the object
of this conference...
195
00:20:39,705 --> 00:20:42,640
is that we talk about
this problem of cannibalism.
196
00:20:42,774 --> 00:20:48,178
I am not a cannibal. I am not one.
If you read my biography...
197
00:20:48,313 --> 00:20:51,476
then you will see
that I have not deserved it.
198
00:20:52,718 --> 00:20:56,848
And then he continues:
"First of all I get some rice...
199
00:20:57,456 --> 00:21:00,550
and then I season it
with onions and rice...
200
00:21:00,692 --> 00:21:03,160
and with all that is necessary
for a 'bonne cuisine'."
201
00:21:04,529 --> 00:21:07,020
And as there was no-one
to help him...
202
00:21:07,165 --> 00:21:10,464
he carried the body all on his own
apparently without any difficulty.
203
00:21:10,602 --> 00:21:14,163
He put it on the oven that must have been
an absolutely gigantic oven...
204
00:21:14,306 --> 00:21:17,275
and he started to turn it,
crying at the same time.
205
00:21:17,409 --> 00:21:20,708
He took it off the oven
and put it back on again.
206
00:21:20,846 --> 00:21:24,907
He began to add flavouring once again
and then... just listen carefully...
207
00:21:25,584 --> 00:21:28,553
listen carefully how justice
was restored in 1980...
208
00:21:28,854 --> 00:21:31,288
"I put the body on the stove...
209
00:21:31,423 --> 00:21:36,053
and the hand of this person,
the dead person,
210
00:21:36,628 --> 00:21:41,463
quite simply...
the hand of the person...
211
00:22:16,134 --> 00:22:21,197
came off from my arm and it moved
along the floor without stopping."
212
00:22:21,707 --> 00:22:27,009
Can you imagine this scene?
This hand in Berengo's kitchen...
213
00:22:27,379 --> 00:22:30,576
which is living all on its own
and which is moving around.
214
00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:34,742
It is on the testimony
of this man...
215
00:22:35,987 --> 00:22:38,649
that the Criminal Court
of Bangui...
216
00:22:38,790 --> 00:22:44,251
sentenced Jean Bedel Bokassa
in 1980.
217
00:22:44,796 --> 00:22:46,457
Have you heard...
218
00:22:46,598 --> 00:22:51,331
have you heard about
the human flesh which he ate?
219
00:22:51,603 --> 00:22:54,163
But at the trial all the witnesses
refused to give testimony...
220
00:22:54,439 --> 00:22:57,374
they did at last but they were
threatened at home.
221
00:22:57,509 --> 00:22:59,875
At the trial there were
a lot ofwitnesses.
222
00:23:00,011 --> 00:23:04,675
But what... what is the real truth?
- The truth is that he ate human flesh.
223
00:23:04,816 --> 00:23:08,513
Did you see him doing it?
- I heard about it.
224
00:23:08,653 --> 00:23:11,679
I heard it from all those
who were all round him...
225
00:23:11,823 --> 00:23:16,021
who were close to him and who
did all this for him. - I heard about it.
226
00:23:16,161 --> 00:23:20,029
But as there weren't any witnesses,
apparently the trial did not follow that up.
227
00:23:26,605 --> 00:23:30,598
But the Central African was
looked on like an animal...
228
00:23:30,742 --> 00:23:32,437
like a dog...
And you can love your dog...
229
00:23:32,577 --> 00:23:34,511
and look after it but he didn't
look after any Central African.
230
00:23:34,646 --> 00:23:36,238
The proof, the officials
didn't have their salaries.
231
00:23:36,381 --> 00:23:39,509
And when a Central African
committed the slightest mistake...
232
00:23:39,651 --> 00:23:44,645
it all depended on the Bokassa's mood.
There were days when Bokassa said...
233
00:23:44,790 --> 00:23:47,884
he said, "Why did you do that?
Just disappear and get lost."
234
00:23:48,026 --> 00:23:50,153
And then afterwards
there were days when...
235
00:23:50,295 --> 00:23:52,695
the person was beaten to death
for the same mistake.
236
00:23:53,465 --> 00:23:56,730
No, it wasn't a life which was
just and equitable in any way.
237
00:23:56,868 --> 00:24:01,362
I know that thieves had their
ears cut off, didn't they?
238
00:24:01,506 --> 00:24:06,000
That's right. He cut off the thieves' ears.
These thieves lived with their ears cut off.
239
00:24:06,144 --> 00:24:08,271
But before cutting off
their ears...
240
00:24:08,413 --> 00:24:14,079
he went down to the prison himself
and he beat them... he tortured them...
241
00:24:14,219 --> 00:24:19,054
he beat the thieves who were
in the prison. Some of them were dead.
242
00:24:19,291 --> 00:24:24,388
And he displayed the bodies and the
wounded to the public for 24 hours.
243
00:24:25,630 --> 00:24:29,327
And he did this to the students
as well, didn't he?
244
00:24:29,568 --> 00:24:34,631
He went himself to the prison...
to kill some of them.
245
00:24:34,906 --> 00:24:37,500
Yes, that's what was said
at the trial as well.
246
00:24:38,677 --> 00:24:41,646
I said to myself that I had to
regard Bokassa as an enemy...
247
00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:45,011
and after I had been liberated
I became obsessed with the idea...
248
00:24:45,150 --> 00:24:49,348
of doing everything to overthrow him.
But I was very calm and discreet.
249
00:24:49,754 --> 00:24:52,917
When I was called to the government on
certain occasions to this government.
250
00:24:53,058 --> 00:24:56,050
I was really polite so that
he didn't realise anything.
251
00:24:56,194 --> 00:25:00,631
I was very polite and very correct
with him. He even invited me privately:
252
00:25:00,765 --> 00:25:04,462
we went for a meal in his plane
and we shared the same apartment.
253
00:25:05,203 --> 00:25:08,263
He made me go with him to Uganda
and to Zaire. - Did he really?
254
00:25:08,406 --> 00:25:12,308
Yes, he did, to the lvory Coast. - And did he
threaten you sometimes? - Yes, very often.
255
00:25:12,444 --> 00:25:15,413
What did he do? - What did you say?
- How did he threaten you?
256
00:25:15,547 --> 00:25:19,984
He said "Oh, but the people say that
the president should return as president...
257
00:25:20,118 --> 00:25:24,077
but before that happens I would
torture him and then I would kill him."
258
00:25:24,222 --> 00:25:26,486
And he said that in front of all
the ministers and counsellors.
259
00:25:26,625 --> 00:25:29,890
And when that wasn't possible, there were
moments when the council of ministers...
260
00:25:29,961 --> 00:25:32,896
were arriving and he was taking out
all kinds of automatic pistols...
261
00:25:33,031 --> 00:25:35,397
and mitrailles, putting them
on the table, saying:
262
00:25:35,534 --> 00:25:39,026
"Well, if anyone wants to replace me
as president let him raise his hand now.
263
00:25:39,170 --> 00:25:41,730
I want to let him know
what ammunition I use."
264
00:25:41,873 --> 00:25:44,774
He said that to intimidate you?
- Yes, always with intimidation in mind.
265
00:25:44,910 --> 00:25:49,677
One day after sounding out opinions
the people said:
266
00:25:49,848 --> 00:25:51,816
"Down with Bokassa. We want
President Dacko to return...
267
00:25:51,950 --> 00:25:54,111
because we still fond memories
of him".
268
00:25:54,252 --> 00:25:56,914
Yes...
- And when he heard about this...
269
00:25:57,055 --> 00:26:00,183
he said: "Well, my dear Dacko, I am sorry
for you". Later on he called me "David"...
270
00:26:00,325 --> 00:26:02,885
because he called me by my first name
sometimes because we were both parents.
271
00:26:03,028 --> 00:26:04,962
"Oh, but I pity you for the fate
that I am reserving for you.
272
00:26:05,096 --> 00:26:07,690
Before the people call
for you to become president...
273
00:26:07,832 --> 00:26:10,232
I am going to torture you
before you are killed.
274
00:26:10,368 --> 00:26:12,165
I pity you for the fate
that I have reserved for you."
275
00:26:12,304 --> 00:26:15,671
He said this in front of all the
ministers and the counsellors.
276
00:26:16,408 --> 00:26:20,469
At the end I managed to escape eventually
and to leave the country discreetly.
277
00:26:20,612 --> 00:26:26,812
And finally, the Empire...
who had the idea of this Empire?
278
00:26:27,018 --> 00:26:30,351
Bokassa. - He himself?
- He thought he was Napoleon.
279
00:27:09,394 --> 00:27:11,692
Oh, I think it is all an evolution
of character.
280
00:27:11,830 --> 00:27:16,426
At the beginning I think
Bokassa was a small peasant...
281
00:27:16,568 --> 00:27:19,036
whose father had been killed
by the settlers
282
00:27:19,170 --> 00:27:24,870
and who joined the army and who led the
existence of a soldier. It was the war...
283
00:27:25,010 --> 00:27:27,001
A french soldier?
- A french soldier.
284
00:27:27,145 --> 00:27:30,205
And he will always be very proud
to have been a French soldier...
285
00:27:36,087 --> 00:27:40,319
and the famous legend of Bokassa
the mercenary sub-officer...
286
00:27:40,458 --> 00:27:43,586
will always exist even when Bokassa is
no longer captain of the French army.
287
00:27:43,728 --> 00:27:46,458
So he leaves, he goes to war and he
is on the side of the vanquishers...
288
00:27:46,831 --> 00:27:51,768
with a head who is General de Gaulle who
is the general vanquisher and absolute...
289
00:27:52,604 --> 00:27:57,303
myth for him and then, as the years go by,
he lives in reality like a French citizen.
290
00:27:57,609 --> 00:28:01,739
He is not African. He leaves Africa.
He is 18 and will return there.
291
00:28:02,047 --> 00:28:07,110
He will have spent 20 years outside his
country in France and in Indo-China...
292
00:28:07,252 --> 00:28:11,484
because he went to war in Indo-China
and he returned to Africa.
293
00:28:11,623 --> 00:28:14,751
It is... I was going to say a French officer
who is returning home but someone...
294
00:28:14,893 --> 00:28:19,023
who at the same time feels superior to the
other Africans because he had really lived...
295
00:28:19,164 --> 00:28:21,792
he had travelled throughout the world
and had led French soldiers...
296
00:28:21,933 --> 00:28:26,165
white, and when he took command at the
beginning. I think he was a young officer...
297
00:28:26,304 --> 00:28:29,967
who was in that class
of progressive officers of the 60s.
298
00:28:30,108 --> 00:28:33,236
And then, very quickly
because it is what Saint Just said:
299
00:28:33,378 --> 00:28:37,041
"Absolute power corrupts absolutely". It is
true that during the course of the years...
300
00:28:37,182 --> 00:28:40,948
he is not going to stop
he is where he is.
301
00:28:41,252 --> 00:28:44,221
First of all he is going to be colonel, then
general, marshal, president for life...
302
00:28:44,355 --> 00:28:47,119
and then emperor.
That's not enough for him.
303
00:28:47,258 --> 00:28:51,888
There is always a type of yearning and a
quest and there is always this ambiguity...
304
00:28:52,030 --> 00:28:54,828
with him to be very African...
he knew his people very well...
305
00:28:55,133 --> 00:28:57,795
and, at the same time, I would
not say contempt but the feeling...
306
00:28:57,936 --> 00:29:01,030
of being somebody above
the others and separate from them...
307
00:29:01,372 --> 00:29:04,466
And then it is true that
the attention which the world...
308
00:29:04,609 --> 00:29:09,069
gave him did not help things
because of his eccentricities.
309
00:29:09,214 --> 00:29:11,614
After he was always received
by all the foreign states.
310
00:29:11,750 --> 00:29:14,548
If you look at a lot of
official ceremonies...
311
00:29:14,686 --> 00:29:18,053
he is regarded as head of state.
312
00:29:18,189 --> 00:29:21,022
He spoke at the general assembly
of the United Nations.
313
00:29:21,159 --> 00:29:25,596
He was received by the Pope. Consequently,
he is someone who finally says to himself:
314
00:29:25,730 --> 00:29:29,632
"I proclaimed myself emperor in the presence
of the world and the world accepted it."
315
00:30:46,211 --> 00:30:49,772
This, this is really
the end of the Empire.
316
00:30:57,789 --> 00:31:02,192
Do you know who it is?
Who is it?
317
00:31:02,493 --> 00:31:04,688
Bokassa.
- Bokassa?
318
00:31:11,202 --> 00:31:17,198
He had already fallen
before you were born, I think.
319
00:31:32,690 --> 00:31:35,056
Oh, my God, how things
have changed.
320
00:31:35,793 --> 00:31:41,231
You know, the police brought me
by car there. I was in handcuffs.
321
00:31:41,566 --> 00:31:44,501
They took the handcuffs off
and I came forward.
322
00:31:44,702 --> 00:31:48,763
I came forward all on my own
and the Emperor came towards me.
323
00:31:49,707 --> 00:31:52,540
And we met each other here.
324
00:31:53,745 --> 00:31:59,274
I gave a bow and said, "Your Majesty"
very respectfully because...
325
00:31:59,584 --> 00:32:02,348
I thought he was going
to talk with me.
326
00:32:02,620 --> 00:32:06,181
Instead of which he was like that...
327
00:32:06,424 --> 00:32:10,986
he was furious and
he came towards me...
328
00:32:11,296 --> 00:32:17,929
and raised his walking stick and hit me
on the head very hard and I fell down.
329
00:32:22,974 --> 00:32:27,138
And, you know,
they were all round me.
330
00:32:27,478 --> 00:32:32,415
There was a small person if I remember
rightly, there was a small person,
331
00:32:32,550 --> 00:32:36,919
he must have been about your age,
dressed as a marshal of the army.
332
00:32:37,088 --> 00:32:43,891
and they all beat me unmercifully
and I fell to the ground.
333
00:32:44,195 --> 00:32:46,493
My glasses, my glasses fell
to the ground.
334
00:32:46,831 --> 00:32:53,259
Like that, and I saw Bokassa's foot
coming down onto my glasses...
335
00:32:53,504 --> 00:32:59,568
and then he crushed them,
like that, saying: "There we are.
336
00:32:59,844 --> 00:33:04,213
You will have to manage
without these glasses."
337
00:33:04,782 --> 00:33:08,240
Just like that I stayed for a month
in prison without my glasses.
338
00:33:11,122 --> 00:33:13,022
That was very hard.
339
00:34:18,256 --> 00:34:25,321
Just look at that, that's the tapestry,
it's made of velvet.
340
00:34:25,763 --> 00:34:28,732
Yes.
- And who took it away?
341
00:34:29,100 --> 00:34:31,466
The people from the neighborhood.
- Yes.
342
00:34:32,336 --> 00:34:36,272
They used it to upholster their rooms.
And that's...
343
00:34:45,116 --> 00:34:47,107
What's that?
344
00:34:47,652 --> 00:34:50,621
A circular bed.
- A circular bed?
345
00:34:53,024 --> 00:34:57,085
It was completely dismounted and stolen
by the plunderers, wasn't it?
346
00:35:01,899 --> 00:35:06,632
How many wives did Bokassa have?
- I don't know. - You don't know.
347
00:35:23,321 --> 00:35:25,653
That's the end of the Empire.
348
00:35:45,343 --> 00:35:49,109
Just think of it, he kept millions there,
didn't he? Can you open this for me? - Yes.
349
00:35:54,685 --> 00:35:56,346
There were...
350
00:35:59,423 --> 00:36:01,789
All the treasures
of the country were in there.
351
00:36:06,097 --> 00:36:08,327
Come and look.
Just look at that?
352
00:36:15,106 --> 00:36:19,907
It is true that it was opened with a pistol.
- With a pistol? Oh... yes.
353
00:36:30,321 --> 00:36:32,585
This is the kitchen, isn't it?
354
00:36:36,961 --> 00:36:43,389
That... And he cooked people here
sometimes? Is it true? - It's true.
355
00:36:44,835 --> 00:36:50,671
There were bodies here which
were kept in the fridge.
356
00:36:51,075 --> 00:36:55,705
There's the fridge.
- The fridge, there?
357
00:37:03,688 --> 00:37:07,556
It was there that he prepared
the bodies for consumption.
358
00:37:07,692 --> 00:37:10,092
He put them in there.
359
00:38:17,328 --> 00:38:19,694
Mr. Dacko, you were president...
360
00:38:20,164 --> 00:38:26,160
of Central Africa
before Bokassa and afterwards.
361
00:38:27,505 --> 00:38:30,599
There was the story of how you
were imprisoned...
362
00:38:30,741 --> 00:38:33,710
It must have been very hard, wasn't it?
- Yes, it was very hard, yes.
363
00:38:33,844 --> 00:38:36,506
I was three and a half years in prison
without talking to anyone.
364
00:38:36,647 --> 00:38:40,083
Three and a half years? - Yes. He
refused to allow me to talk to anyone.
365
00:38:40,217 --> 00:38:42,515
A soldier brought me something
to eat and some water.
366
00:38:42,653 --> 00:38:46,145
He was not allowed to talk to me.
- Was it Camp de Roux or N'garagba?
367
00:38:46,290 --> 00:38:49,191
Some of the time in Camp de Roux
and some of the time in N'garagba.
368
00:38:51,062 --> 00:38:56,432
And what did they do to you in the cell?
- I was naked, with chains on my feet.
369
00:38:57,201 --> 00:38:59,965
With handcuffs on my hands.
And then naked on the cement.
370
00:39:00,104 --> 00:39:02,299
All the time?
- All the time!
371
00:39:03,374 --> 00:39:06,207
When was it?
- Up to '69.
372
00:39:07,211 --> 00:39:09,873
And afterwards I was assigned to
the residence in the village...
373
00:39:10,014 --> 00:39:14,542
for another three and a half years. Without
being able to move out of the house.
374
00:39:18,022 --> 00:39:20,582
I was in prison for 7 years
one way or another.
375
00:39:23,761 --> 00:39:26,161
Berengo was rich in anecdotes:
376
00:39:26,897 --> 00:39:31,459
incidents which make me laugh today but
which were tragic at the point of time.
377
00:39:32,103 --> 00:39:34,731
The people talked a lot
about the Rumanian woman.
378
00:39:35,906 --> 00:39:39,967
After having settled the Rumanian in the
Kolongo villa there was a period of time...
379
00:39:40,111 --> 00:39:42,511
when the Emperor
didn't come any more.
380
00:39:42,646 --> 00:39:44,671
And because he didn't come any
more, what did the Rumanian do?
381
00:39:44,815 --> 00:39:49,218
She was very young and very
beautiful and she still wanted to live.
382
00:39:49,553 --> 00:39:51,851
She finished up by corrupting
his guards.
383
00:39:51,989 --> 00:39:55,550
And, one by one, she asked the
guards to share Bokassa's bed.
384
00:39:57,128 --> 00:39:59,790
And when Bokassa got to know
about it after an enquiry...
385
00:40:00,531 --> 00:40:03,659
those guards who had shared his bed
were put under arrest.
386
00:40:03,801 --> 00:40:05,666
They were executed.
387
00:40:05,936 --> 00:40:07,563
The rumanian, for example.
388
00:40:07,938 --> 00:40:11,066
At one point of time Bokassa was
on an official visit in Rumania...
389
00:40:11,342 --> 00:40:14,243
and he met a dancer
from the ballet group.
390
00:40:14,979 --> 00:40:18,574
He found her to his liking
and finally the dancer left with him.
391
00:40:18,716 --> 00:40:21,981
And then she disappeared. And so people
are going to say that it was Bokassa.
392
00:40:22,186 --> 00:40:25,883
And then it was learned later on that she
was really an agent of the Securitate...
393
00:40:26,023 --> 00:40:30,016
and that she actually returned
to Rumania once she had been "grilled".
394
00:40:32,763 --> 00:40:36,062
When she returned the Rumanian
lived in another villa.
395
00:40:37,501 --> 00:40:42,666
And one morning after having had breakfast
she took the bicycle of her hotel boy.
396
00:40:43,574 --> 00:40:46,304
She took the bicycle, got on it and
went for a ride around the village...
397
00:40:46,444 --> 00:40:48,912
just at the moment when
Bokassa returned. And Bokassa,
398
00:40:49,046 --> 00:40:52,607
furious at seeing that his wife was
on the bicycle of the hotel boy said:
399
00:40:52,750 --> 00:40:55,651
"So, so... this boy was having an
affair with my wife."
400
00:40:55,786 --> 00:40:58,755
And in a scene of jealousy he had
the hotel boy beaten to death.
401
00:40:59,490 --> 00:41:02,948
It was even the cause of the death
of a number of Central Africans.
402
00:41:03,093 --> 00:41:05,391
You know, there were moments
when we wondered...
403
00:41:05,529 --> 00:41:08,123
where we were going and what
would happen to us.
404
00:41:08,265 --> 00:41:10,495
Take the Russians, for example, they...
after having obtained the authorisation...
405
00:41:10,634 --> 00:41:12,534
from the Government
to visit Lobaye.
406
00:41:12,670 --> 00:41:17,539
When they returned to the Pissa
commissariat 70 kilometres from Bangui...
407
00:41:17,808 --> 00:41:21,039
they were intercepted on the instructions
of Bokassa and brought to Berengo.
408
00:41:21,178 --> 00:41:26,707
For 2 hours they were kept standing
and Bokassa insulted the Russians...
409
00:41:26,851 --> 00:41:29,615
and talked of Russia as being the cause
of all the wars which had taken place...
410
00:41:29,753 --> 00:41:32,313
throughout the world and all
the demonstrations in the world,
411
00:41:32,456 --> 00:41:37,257
and after two hours, after having maligned
them, he said "please come into my salon."
412
00:41:37,394 --> 00:41:39,988
He offered them champagne
and whisky and then said...
413
00:41:40,130 --> 00:41:43,429
"forget everything I have said" and then
he drove back to Bangui. So you can see...
414
00:41:43,567 --> 00:41:48,266
As soon as he assumed power
he asked the French ambassador...
415
00:41:48,572 --> 00:41:53,305
to find the daughter which he had with
a Vietnamese whilst he was in Vietnam.
416
00:41:53,544 --> 00:41:56,536
Immediately afterwards,
lady presented his daughter
417
00:41:56,847 --> 00:41:59,782
and Bokassa baptised her
as Martine.
418
00:42:00,050 --> 00:42:02,416
The formalities were completed
and she was sent to Bangui...
419
00:42:02,620 --> 00:42:04,679
where she was received like
a head of state with motorcycles...
420
00:42:04,822 --> 00:42:06,756
and guards of honour and all that.
421
00:42:06,991 --> 00:42:08,583
Then there's the story
of the two Martines.
422
00:42:08,726 --> 00:42:12,856
It is a really extraordinary story because
Bokassa was serving in Indo-China...
423
00:42:12,997 --> 00:42:16,626
and like a lot of French soldiers
serving in Indo-China...
424
00:42:16,867 --> 00:42:21,702
he had quite a few friendships and
relationships with the local population.
425
00:42:21,839 --> 00:42:25,536
He fell in love with a young
Indo-Chinese girl and had a daughter.
426
00:42:25,943 --> 00:42:29,106
Then he left without taking care of her at
all. And then, when he returned to power...
427
00:42:29,380 --> 00:42:31,575
and when he had taken his
fill of all the honour involved,
428
00:42:31,715 --> 00:42:33,205
he wanted to find
his daughter again.
429
00:42:33,350 --> 00:42:36,513
Then he found the first daughter who was
called Martine. And then, lo and behold...
430
00:42:36,754 --> 00:42:39,746
it was realised that the Martine
who he thought was his daughter...
431
00:42:40,024 --> 00:42:43,960
wasn't his real daughter at all. Then
the second Martine arrived in Bangui.
432
00:42:44,094 --> 00:42:46,619
And there is Bokassa who found
himselfwith two daughters.
433
00:42:46,764 --> 00:42:50,666
And then he said very generously: "I will
keep even the one who has deceived me...
434
00:42:50,935 --> 00:42:54,496
as my daughter". And so he had two
daughters and he brought them together.
435
00:42:54,805 --> 00:42:57,273
And it is extraordinary...
436
00:42:57,608 --> 00:43:00,441
how fate persisted in repeating
the same things for the two girls.
437
00:43:01,645 --> 00:43:04,045
Then the two Martines were to
get married on the same day.
438
00:43:04,615 --> 00:43:07,482
They were going to marry two
Central African personalities:
439
00:43:07,785 --> 00:43:10,253
one was going to marry
Doctor Dédé Abodé...
440
00:43:10,754 --> 00:43:15,589
and the other was going to marry
Captain Obrou. And, curiously enough...
441
00:43:15,726 --> 00:43:22,131
the two son-in-laws suffered the same fate.
Captain Obrou attempted a coup d'état.
442
00:43:22,266 --> 00:43:24,791
Bokassa was at the Bangui airport
one day...
443
00:43:24,935 --> 00:43:28,871
and suddenly someone threw hand
grenades and then they didn't explode...
444
00:43:29,006 --> 00:43:32,203
which reinforced the legend
of"Bokassa la baraqua".
445
00:43:32,509 --> 00:43:38,414
Fidel Obrou was arrested,
condemned to death and executed.
446
00:43:38,983 --> 00:43:41,975
On the other hand, the other
son-in-law, Bruno Dédé Abodé...
447
00:43:42,252 --> 00:43:47,087
followed in the footsteps
of his father-in-law...
448
00:43:48,292 --> 00:43:50,783
and he was involved
in the assassination...
449
00:43:50,928 --> 00:43:53,419
of the person whom I could
almost call his nephew.
450
00:43:53,731 --> 00:44:00,261
In other words, the son of Obrou died in
mysterious circumstances in the clinic...
451
00:44:00,638 --> 00:44:03,766
A baby?
- A baby, a newly-born baby...
452
00:44:04,441 --> 00:44:08,309
In actual fact it was poisoned
and it was Bruno Dédé Abodé...
453
00:44:08,445 --> 00:44:10,743
who was actually accused of
having arranged the assassination.
454
00:44:10,948 --> 00:44:15,351
On the fall of Bokassa amongst the charges
which were levied against Dédé Abodé...
455
00:44:15,486 --> 00:44:19,684
he was charged with the death of the child
and he was sentenced to death and executed.
456
00:44:51,188 --> 00:44:53,418
How are you going to explain
the story?
457
00:44:58,696 --> 00:45:01,529
It is... something which...
458
00:45:07,404 --> 00:45:09,736
...which is true.
...which is true.
459
00:45:15,079 --> 00:45:19,175
Is it the type of thing which you
read about in books...
460
00:45:19,483 --> 00:45:21,974
in novels, which you see
in the cinema but it is...
461
00:45:24,388 --> 00:45:28,119
It is just for this reason that
this story is interesting, isn't it?
462
00:45:34,031 --> 00:45:36,329
Yes, but I think it is fate
and God who made it.
463
00:45:36,633 --> 00:45:40,296
Yes. - There. It was destiny
and God which made it...
464
00:45:40,537 --> 00:45:42,528
that my father, who left to
go to war in Vietnam...
465
00:45:42,673 --> 00:45:46,074
got to know my mother, that
she saw that he had an accident...
466
00:45:46,410 --> 00:45:50,506
that he broke a left finger, that he would
never be able to bend the finger again.
467
00:45:50,848 --> 00:45:52,839
You see, he has always
had a finger like that. - Oh yes.
468
00:45:52,983 --> 00:45:56,009
And when you see that my father always
wears a large ring like that to hide it.
469
00:45:56,620 --> 00:46:02,752
It was thanks to that finger that my mother
was able to recognise her husband.
470
00:46:03,026 --> 00:46:06,792
Because my mother asked him, if he had
broken his finger on such and such a day...
471
00:46:06,930 --> 00:46:10,366
at such and such a time when
she was pregnant with me.
472
00:46:10,768 --> 00:46:13,737
And my father was then sure...
473
00:46:14,138 --> 00:46:16,368
thanks to the finger, "Yes, my wife
and my daughter Martine."
474
00:46:16,507 --> 00:46:19,533
But nonetheless my father always thought
that the first Martine was his daughter.
475
00:46:19,810 --> 00:46:22,745
He didn't worry
about it any more.
476
00:46:25,415 --> 00:46:30,614
But what interested me
was your story...
477
00:46:30,954 --> 00:46:36,051
with your so-called sister.
How did it happen exactly?
478
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,329
Did she always know that she
was not really Bokassa's daughter?
479
00:46:39,663 --> 00:46:42,723
No, no, she didn't know at all.
- She really didn't know? - No.
480
00:46:43,066 --> 00:46:45,796
Even when I arrived
she didn't know who I was.
481
00:46:46,069 --> 00:46:48,765
She thought I was a secretary
of my father.
482
00:46:49,072 --> 00:46:53,668
She didn't realise that I was
a Vietnamese just like her!
483
00:46:53,944 --> 00:46:56,742
So she really thought she was
Bokassa's daughter?
484
00:46:57,181 --> 00:47:00,116
No, she knew only too well
because she had been warned.
485
00:47:00,350 --> 00:47:04,218
She said that everyone
in his country always said...
486
00:47:04,488 --> 00:47:08,652
"Passi, Passi" to her and
Passi was his name.
487
00:47:09,326 --> 00:47:11,920
And there was someone who came
to look for her mother...
488
00:47:12,062 --> 00:47:17,830
and offered her 5'000 dollars
for her to go to Central Africa...
489
00:47:18,068 --> 00:47:20,969
in order to identify a man
who said that he was your father.
490
00:47:21,305 --> 00:47:24,706
But he wasn't your father. But a
President. It wasn't necessary that...
491
00:47:25,342 --> 00:47:29,642
Was it was the French who did it?
- Er, yes...
492
00:47:31,381 --> 00:47:34,942
It was someone who worked
in the French Consulate in Vietnam...
493
00:47:35,853 --> 00:47:38,947
who said that she had become
an adoptive child. - Yes.
494
00:47:39,923 --> 00:47:42,255
And we lived together
for two years.
495
00:47:42,392 --> 00:47:45,884
Ah, ah. In Bangui? - Yes. We were
in the same house for two years...
496
00:47:46,129 --> 00:47:50,828
with my father,
just like a normal family.
497
00:47:51,969 --> 00:47:58,875
And eventually the two of you
got married on the same day...
498
00:47:59,910 --> 00:48:05,109
Yes, it happened.
When I arrived from Central Africa...
499
00:48:05,382 --> 00:48:10,217
Martine had already arrived well before
me. But I don't hold it against her...
500
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:15,389
I don't hold it against her because she
was not to blame. It was never her fault.
501
00:48:15,659 --> 00:48:17,889
It was what other people
did that put her in her place.
502
00:48:18,228 --> 00:48:20,890
She was there to bear
the consequences.
503
00:48:21,031 --> 00:48:26,901
I was there to share fortune and
ill-fortune with her both of us.
504
00:48:27,571 --> 00:48:33,032
Unfortunately it didn't end well for both
of us... both for me and for her as well.
505
00:48:33,343 --> 00:48:37,336
And I married and she also
found herself a husband.
506
00:48:37,581 --> 00:48:40,948
My father said: "So that one daughter
does not become jealous of the other...
507
00:48:41,084 --> 00:48:43,917
we will hold the marriage on the same day.
The one of them will not be able to say...
508
00:48:44,054 --> 00:48:46,352
that her marriage was bigger
and the other was smaller.
509
00:48:46,623 --> 00:48:49,251
On the same day with the same guests
and with the same presents."
510
00:49:27,965 --> 00:49:29,557
We got married.
511
00:49:29,700 --> 00:49:32,999
I view of the fact that my sister's husband
married with one idea in mind...
512
00:49:33,270 --> 00:49:35,932
he had to pay for that
with his life.
513
00:49:36,773 --> 00:49:41,005
And my husband,
he has paid for it...
514
00:49:43,747 --> 00:49:46,614
and it has also enchained
my life at the same time.
515
00:49:46,750 --> 00:49:51,847
And my husband was... he was asked
to do a job of work and he did it.
516
00:49:52,189 --> 00:49:57,252
No-one is accused when things
turn out alright.
517
00:49:57,527 --> 00:50:02,055
But once you are no longer in power...
when the boot is on the other foot...
518
00:50:02,332 --> 00:50:05,096
then everyone is accused. People
pointed out what my husband had done.
519
00:50:05,335 --> 00:50:08,600
This and all that... He was
sentenced... And then, that was all...
520
00:50:08,805 --> 00:50:11,569
The husband of the Martine in
question, of the wrong Martine...
521
00:50:11,842 --> 00:50:15,403
he was accused of a coup d'état and
was executed. - Obrou? - Yes.
522
00:50:15,645 --> 00:50:20,810
He was executed. Then it was decided
to repatriate his wife Martine...
523
00:50:22,419 --> 00:50:24,387
the wrong Martine.
524
00:50:24,521 --> 00:50:28,924
That was in February '76. She was
to have been repatriated to Vietnam...
525
00:50:29,226 --> 00:50:32,059
but she never took the plane to Bangui.
She disappeared from circulation.
526
00:50:32,396 --> 00:50:34,694
She was killed as well.
- Yes, yes.
527
00:50:34,831 --> 00:50:37,129
And her child as well?
- Yes.
528
00:50:41,671 --> 00:50:43,696
It wasn't the doctor...
529
00:50:44,307 --> 00:50:48,903
Dédé Abodé who had been sentenced
to death. Yes, by the Bangui tribunal.
530
00:50:49,179 --> 00:50:51,773
For having... - For having
killed the child, yes.
531
00:50:56,553 --> 00:50:59,249
You know, I was in...
532
00:51:00,123 --> 00:51:03,354
the N'garagba prison
for a month and...
533
00:51:05,495 --> 00:51:07,588
Were you?
- Yes, I was.
534
00:51:09,132 --> 00:51:12,624
At the very beginning Bokassa...
535
00:51:12,936 --> 00:51:16,497
sentenced me to death as a spy.
- You?
536
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:18,801
Yes. And I was
in the same cell...
537
00:51:19,109 --> 00:51:24,741
as your brother-in-law Obrou
for a week.
538
00:51:24,881 --> 00:51:27,748
Yes. - He wrote
an inscription on the wall...
539
00:51:28,051 --> 00:51:34,820
asking the people who could
read it...
540
00:51:35,092 --> 00:51:38,789
to look after his family
and all that.
541
00:51:42,966 --> 00:51:48,563
It was dramatic. He really sentenced me
to death, in just a moment.
542
00:51:49,005 --> 00:51:54,602
Dacko, you know, the president
Dacko who followed...
543
00:51:54,744 --> 00:51:57,907
he had me come to his office
and he showed it to me.
544
00:51:58,048 --> 00:52:03,748
He said: "There you are. It was Bokassa
who signed your death sentence."
545
00:52:04,387 --> 00:52:07,823
I was a journalist. - Oh, you came
to the country as a journalist!
546
00:52:08,125 --> 00:52:13,028
I was there as a journalist who went
to do a report on the coronation...
547
00:52:13,230 --> 00:52:15,892
which was supposed to be
taking place.
548
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:34,913
An excellent impression. Please
send my regards to all the personnel...
549
01:01:35,058 --> 01:01:40,428
of Antenne 2 and particularly to France,
to the president of the French Republic,
550
01:01:40,730 --> 01:01:45,258
to the Prime Minister, to Jacques Chirac
and to Mr. Jacques Rocard...
551
01:01:45,535 --> 01:01:50,472
and all my French friends all the police and
particularly to Admiral Phillipe De Gaulle...
552
01:01:50,707 --> 01:01:53,175
and to the whole family
of General De Gaulle.
553
01:01:53,309 --> 01:01:56,335
Please tell them that their valiant
soldier, Bokassa Jean Bedel...
554
01:01:56,612 --> 01:02:01,015
of the Forces Francaises Libres, F.F.L.,
fighting good, good, withdraw...
555
01:02:01,150 --> 01:02:06,019
exceptional amongst African combatants.
He has replied to the justice of his country.
556
01:03:47,423 --> 01:03:51,655
Can you explain to me a little
how it happened and how he is.
557
01:03:51,794 --> 01:03:55,628
Yes, of course. I can see him. I don't have
any bureaucratic obstacles to overcome.
558
01:03:55,898 --> 01:03:58,492
In the same way as in all other countries
of the world lawyers have the right...
559
01:03:58,634 --> 01:04:01,159
to see their clients. And it is in this
position as a lawyer that I can see him.
560
01:04:05,541 --> 01:04:09,409
I have been to see him every day
since I returned to Bangui.
561
01:04:09,545 --> 01:04:12,446
I can see him in his prison,
in his type of a castle...
562
01:04:12,815 --> 01:04:15,079
as Louis-Ferdinand Céline
would say.
563
01:04:15,218 --> 01:04:18,779
It is there that he is detained, in a
military enclosure in a military prison.
564
01:04:19,055 --> 01:04:23,219
In actual fact it is a military prison.
He occupies a cell which is probably...
565
01:04:23,626 --> 01:04:28,996
5 x 3 metres and which
is a real cell for prisoners...
566
01:04:29,365 --> 01:04:32,300
just like all other prisoners.
He is isolated, completely isolated.
567
01:04:32,668 --> 01:04:36,627
He goes out twice a day
into a courtyard...
568
01:04:36,939 --> 01:04:40,431
each time for an hour's walk. But he
is alone when he goes for a walk.
569
01:04:40,676 --> 01:04:44,874
He doesn't ever see anyone, he...
- He only sees his guards certainly. - Yes.
570
01:04:45,047 --> 01:04:48,915
And on Saturdays he can see
various members of his family:
571
01:04:49,051 --> 01:04:53,784
his wives, his sisters, and his relations,
those who come and bring him a bit of food.
572
01:04:54,056 --> 01:04:56,547
Yes, those who come
to see him every Saturday.
573
01:04:56,692 --> 01:04:59,684
Otherwise he only goes out
twice a day in the courtyard...
574
01:05:00,096 --> 01:05:05,728
which is about 5 x 10 metres...
575
01:05:06,068 --> 01:05:09,731
and in which there is
a type of large wooden chair...
576
01:05:10,039 --> 01:05:14,533
in which he sits and then there is
another chair, all broken, in which I sit.
577
01:05:14,810 --> 01:05:18,746
Naturally I let him have the good chair.
And we speak quite openly there.
578
01:05:19,081 --> 01:05:24,075
We have more than an hour to talk with
each other. Since my arrival in Bangui.
579
01:05:24,220 --> 01:05:28,088
Are there no guards watching? - During the
conversation there are no guards around.
580
01:05:28,357 --> 01:05:30,552
Nevertheless, you know that
the conversations,
581
01:05:30,693 --> 01:05:34,424
the correspondence lawyers
and clients are always secret.
582
01:05:34,563 --> 01:05:36,428
And they always respect
this secrecy here.
583
01:05:36,565 --> 01:05:40,296
It should be remembered that the
prisoner is always alone,
584
01:05:40,569 --> 01:05:43,231
a very isolated person and the
lawyer means a lot to him.
585
01:05:44,006 --> 01:05:50,878
He also writes to me very often and
to show you what extent he is mystical...
586
01:05:51,013 --> 01:05:53,277
he always makes the sign
of the cross to me now.
587
01:05:53,416 --> 01:05:55,714
At the beginning he signed
his letters "Bokassa 1"...
588
01:05:55,851 --> 01:05:58,081
and now he always signs
"The Apostle Bokassa 1".
589
01:05:58,220 --> 01:06:00,984
He thinks he is a sort
of apostle of Christ.
590
01:06:02,591 --> 01:06:06,391
And people talk a lot about
his religious obsessions...
591
01:06:06,829 --> 01:06:12,495
Is there... - I don't think that they
are obsessions, they are real, they are.
592
01:06:12,902 --> 01:06:17,532
For more than a year now he has
been in a... in a complete mysticism.
593
01:06:17,807 --> 01:06:20,298
He only reads religious books.
- Does he really?
594
01:06:20,443 --> 01:06:23,606
Except for papers and journals,
he reads the Bible.
595
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:27,208
Yesterday he showed me all the papers
and all the religious books which he had:
596
01:06:27,483 --> 01:06:30,179
the Bible of Jerusalem and
other prayer books...
597
01:06:30,519 --> 01:06:33,386
and I could see that the pages were worn.
It is true that he reads them every day.
598
01:06:33,656 --> 01:06:39,185
He wears a cross and he comes
to see me in very simple clothes.
599
01:06:39,495 --> 01:06:42,123
It is very, very touching:
the first day he was in his pyjamas...
600
01:06:42,465 --> 01:06:48,335
the second day he was in a type of djellaba,
the third day in a sort of laced shirt...
601
01:06:48,604 --> 01:06:52,540
all of them very simple. And he
always wears a cross round his neck.
602
01:06:52,875 --> 01:06:57,107
And I can... I can confirm that he
actually only reads religious books,
603
01:06:57,346 --> 01:07:01,407
the Bible of Jerusalem
in particular. - Yes, that...
604
01:07:02,651 --> 01:07:07,247
I don't think he was ever mad
and that he is mad.
605
01:07:07,390 --> 01:07:09,255
No, I don't think so.
606
01:07:17,366 --> 01:07:21,700
He finally married you by force.
- Yes, by force.
607
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:27,507
And then it lasted two years
afterwards didn't it?
608
01:07:27,777 --> 01:07:30,439
Yes, about two years,
two and a half years...
609
01:07:33,582 --> 01:07:37,518
I did a little holiday job, er...
in a bank.
610
01:07:38,421 --> 01:07:41,049
A bank?
- Yes, in Bangui.
611
01:07:44,727 --> 01:07:47,423
And... I don't know whether
I should tell you all the details.
612
01:07:47,763 --> 01:07:53,030
It was he who sent for me then.
He sent for me...
613
01:07:53,169 --> 01:07:59,574
he sent for me through a man who came
there to the bank and he said to me:
614
01:08:01,811 --> 01:08:04,439
"Your papa would
like to see you."
615
01:08:04,980 --> 01:08:07,073
Your papa would like to see you.
- And there I was!
616
01:08:07,216 --> 01:08:10,674
At that moment I did not
understand who my papa was.
617
01:08:11,020 --> 01:08:15,514
Yes, and you went then?
- No, oh no. I asked him... I asked him:
618
01:08:15,825 --> 01:08:19,591
"But who is my papa?",
and he told me about him.
619
01:08:19,862 --> 01:08:22,296
And what happened then?
- What happened then...
620
01:08:22,431 --> 01:08:25,628
This man led me
to the Palace then.
621
01:08:25,768 --> 01:08:30,364
Yes. - And then it was on that
day that I met him...
622
01:08:32,374 --> 01:08:37,334
And it made quite
a strange impression on me...
623
01:08:37,646 --> 01:08:42,549
Yes.
...to see... to see Bokassa.
624
01:08:42,852 --> 01:08:46,049
Yes. He was already head of state,
he... - He was...
625
01:08:46,188 --> 01:08:49,624
was already head of state and he
had already become a legend.
626
01:08:50,226 --> 01:08:52,091
Yes.
- A myth. - Yes.
627
01:08:52,228 --> 01:08:54,856
A somewhat terrifying myth...
628
01:08:57,199 --> 01:09:01,397
and it shocked me
to see him like that.
629
01:09:04,006 --> 01:09:10,809
At that time I was still innocent...
very innocent and...
630
01:09:11,080 --> 01:09:15,244
And then he took me by the hand
and he carried me into his room.
631
01:09:15,651 --> 01:09:20,782
And in this room there was
a large mirror...
632
01:09:21,056 --> 01:09:25,356
and when I saw myself
in this mirror with him...
633
01:09:25,494 --> 01:09:30,898
at my side and he... he had
actually started to undress me...
634
01:09:31,167 --> 01:09:34,898
and always talking,
with very gentle words.
635
01:09:35,471 --> 01:09:38,440
When I saw myself in this mirror
with him...
636
01:09:38,574 --> 01:09:41,008
I had...
637
01:09:43,145 --> 01:09:47,775
I was in short I practically had
a nervous breakdown.
638
01:09:48,050 --> 01:09:54,888
I started to cry but it was crying like
a child. Crying with very big sobs and...
639
01:09:55,157 --> 01:09:58,388
and I couldn't restrain
myself any more.
640
01:10:00,362 --> 01:10:04,696
And he understood. He still had
a trait of humanity. - He sent you away.
641
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:07,730
Yes, he allowed me
to return home.
642
01:10:08,003 --> 01:10:13,999
And then, when I had told my mother
what had happened...
643
01:10:14,343 --> 01:10:18,905
she sent for a car and
she packed us all into the car...
644
01:10:19,048 --> 01:10:21,983
and then we left that very night
but it was like a catastrophe.
645
01:10:22,184 --> 01:10:28,214
And when we found our way to
this frontier town the police came.
646
01:10:28,357 --> 01:10:33,920
We saw the police coming and they asked
us to follow them. And in this way...
647
01:10:34,063 --> 01:10:37,055
we were detained
in this frontier town.
648
01:10:40,269 --> 01:10:44,035
Because, as you know, the political
detainees were not in the same place...
649
01:10:44,340 --> 01:10:48,071
as the others, in a place
called "La Porte Rouge".
650
01:10:48,444 --> 01:10:52,141
And there was "La Porte Rouge" for men
and "La Porte Rouge" for women.
651
01:10:52,281 --> 01:10:55,307
And my brothers were
at "La Porte Rouge" for men.
652
01:10:55,451 --> 01:11:01,754
And we never saw each other during the
two years which we spent in this prison...
653
01:11:02,057 --> 01:11:04,491
even though we were close
to each other.
654
01:11:05,027 --> 01:11:07,723
One night
someone opened the cell...
655
01:11:08,063 --> 01:11:13,091
we were already sleeping...
someone opened the cell...
656
01:11:13,402 --> 01:11:19,500
and we saw two armed militaries
and a small machine gun.
657
01:11:19,808 --> 01:11:22,436
The impression they made
was terrible...
658
01:11:23,379 --> 01:11:26,644
and we didn't know where
we were going, obviously.
659
01:11:26,782 --> 01:11:29,307
And at that particular moment...
660
01:11:29,451 --> 01:11:33,615
we were sure that
something was going to happen...
661
01:11:33,756 --> 01:11:36,725
or that we were going
to disappear in one way or another...
662
01:11:36,859 --> 01:11:39,350
that was for sure
because the night...
663
01:11:40,829 --> 01:11:44,128
I was always very thin as well...
664
01:11:44,266 --> 01:11:47,167
very bony and very weak as well
and this was the state...
665
01:11:47,303 --> 01:11:49,737
that I was in when I found myself...
666
01:11:49,872 --> 01:11:55,674
in his apartment in
the Palais de la Renaissance.
667
01:11:57,112 --> 01:12:01,606
And this time he was there he was
there waiting for me when I arrived.
668
01:12:01,750 --> 01:12:05,345
He took me by the hand
as he had always done before.
669
01:12:05,587 --> 01:12:09,785
Very gently as if nothing...
as if nothing had happened.
670
01:12:09,925 --> 01:12:14,021
He took me by the hand and he called me
"my daughter" as he used to do before
671
01:12:14,330 --> 01:12:16,958
and then he carried me
to the bathroom.
672
01:12:18,500 --> 01:12:22,937
He filled the bath with warm water
and with bath foam.
673
01:12:23,072 --> 01:12:26,064
He made a foam bath and he put me
into the bath.
674
01:12:26,208 --> 01:12:30,577
He... in actual fact
he almost treated me like a child.
675
01:12:30,713 --> 01:12:35,810
And I was...
I really was very, very weak...
676
01:12:35,951 --> 01:12:42,857
and I couldn't have done all that myself.
And... and then...
677
01:12:43,926 --> 01:12:46,019
I got out of the bath...
678
01:12:46,295 --> 01:12:52,825
and he continued to talk to me.
I understood at that particular moment...
679
01:12:53,202 --> 01:12:57,104
that this time I was going
to succumb and be free.
680
01:12:57,239 --> 01:13:00,572
But it wasn't for me as far
as I personally was concerned...
681
01:13:00,709 --> 01:13:05,043
It was more for my relatives, er...
my brothers, above all my brothers.
682
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:07,043
Because the youngest one
was 14 at that point of time.
683
01:13:07,182 --> 01:13:11,778
And, as you know, it was
easy to die in these prisons...
684
01:13:12,054 --> 01:13:16,514
And, finally, I stayed in this
apartment for three days...
685
01:13:17,526 --> 01:13:21,519
and at the end of the third day
I dared to take the risk.
686
01:13:23,198 --> 01:13:27,294
"My relatives, my mother
and my brothers and sisters...
687
01:13:27,436 --> 01:13:30,837
how are they? What is going
to happen to them?"
688
01:13:31,774 --> 01:13:33,469
It was then that he said:
689
01:13:33,609 --> 01:13:39,377
"Oh, but I have forgotten them.
I shall send for them immediately."
690
01:13:42,351 --> 01:13:46,947
You know, whilst you were
in prison...
691
01:13:47,189 --> 01:13:51,285
in N'garagba I was there as well.
692
01:13:51,427 --> 01:13:56,455
Perhaps you didn't
hear about me.
693
01:13:56,598 --> 01:14:02,093
No I didn't, that is certain...
- But I was in a cell.
694
01:14:03,238 --> 01:14:07,106
I was chained,
both my hands and my feet...
695
01:14:07,242 --> 01:14:12,179
But why? What...
- Because he had decided that I was a spy.
696
01:14:12,314 --> 01:14:15,147
Just like that? A French spy?
697
01:14:16,852 --> 01:14:21,516
In fact he suspected me
of being a South African spy.
698
01:14:22,925 --> 01:14:25,120
It was strange.
699
01:14:25,527 --> 01:14:29,520
I had done a report
on his coronation.
700
01:14:29,832 --> 01:14:32,995
Oh yes.
- And... the report...
701
01:14:33,135 --> 01:14:37,367
I sent it by telex
and the telex was messed up...
702
01:14:37,506 --> 01:14:39,736
because there was a power failure
in the transmission station...
703
01:14:40,008 --> 01:14:44,945
in the village and everything
went out all messed up.
704
01:14:45,180 --> 01:14:49,412
Then the superintendent of the post
office, he took the copy of the telex...
705
01:14:49,685 --> 01:14:52,017
and he ran to the police
and said to them:
706
01:14:52,154 --> 01:14:55,146
"We have a spy, we have a spy.
This has all been sent by code."
707
01:14:55,290 --> 01:15:03,322
I can't recall
my transfer to Bangui.
708
01:15:04,933 --> 01:15:07,731
You know, they collected me
and I was completely...
709
01:15:08,136 --> 01:15:10,696
Yes, unconscious, yes.
- Unconscious.
710
01:15:11,139 --> 01:15:16,270
And it took 10 or 12 days...
711
01:15:16,411 --> 01:15:21,940
in the prison in Bangui before I realised
that I wasn't in Berengo any more.
712
01:15:22,217 --> 01:15:25,380
But you could have died?
- Yes, of course.
713
01:15:52,481 --> 01:15:56,417
And then, what is surprising as well is that
over and above the appearance of a trial...
714
01:15:56,585 --> 01:15:59,145
I was about to say
very westernised...
715
01:15:59,288 --> 01:16:04,191
there were all the non-dits and all
the African beliefs assembled there.
716
01:16:04,326 --> 01:16:08,126
I can remember this woman for example:
Bokassa was accused of having set up...
717
01:16:08,263 --> 01:16:12,131
the assassination of General Mandaba who
was one of the officers of the gendarmerie.
718
01:16:12,568 --> 01:16:15,162
And the president said to Bokassa:
719
01:16:15,504 --> 01:16:18,803
"You had Mandaba killed
but why did you kill his mother?"
720
01:16:19,741 --> 01:16:22,710
And then they talked about
the mother of Mandaba...
721
01:16:22,844 --> 01:16:27,474
and the mother of General Obrou and they
said, "But this woman has three bosoms."
722
01:16:27,616 --> 01:16:30,380
And this really astonished
us obviously:
723
01:16:30,519 --> 01:16:34,353
why were they interested in that?
And it was then that all the beliefs...
724
01:16:34,489 --> 01:16:38,016
and creeds were revived because a woman
had three bosoms. She could be a witch.
725
01:16:38,160 --> 01:16:41,391
If she is a witch, it is not as serious
as if she were the mother of a family.
726
01:16:41,530 --> 01:16:44,431
It was then that the very
African trait came to the surface...
727
01:16:44,566 --> 01:16:47,228
but it never came out
in the open.
728
01:21:38,159 --> 01:21:42,289
Is this all there is of the
zoological garden here? - Yes, yes.
729
01:21:42,430 --> 01:21:48,164
Oh... because I am looking
for the animals which fed...
730
01:21:48,303 --> 01:21:52,637
on human beings at the time
of Bokassa in his...
731
01:21:52,774 --> 01:21:54,935
in the garden in Kolongo,
you know.
732
01:21:55,076 --> 01:21:58,534
The garden in Kolongo?
- That's down there in Kolongo. But here...
733
01:22:03,985 --> 01:22:07,216
Yes, but the lions which he had
down there...
734
01:22:07,355 --> 01:22:12,452
The lions, here they are.
- Are they here? Did they die eventually?
735
01:22:12,594 --> 01:22:17,964
Yes, they have been dead since...
at least since '84.
736
01:22:18,767 --> 01:22:21,463
Yes, and the crocodiles
from the other side?
737
01:22:21,603 --> 01:22:24,265
Yes, the crocodiles, they are still
here. Over there in the water.
738
01:22:24,406 --> 01:22:29,503
Where are...
where are the crocodiles?
739
01:22:29,644 --> 01:22:34,081
They're over there, the crocodiles.
- There, in the pool? - Yes.
740
01:22:34,849 --> 01:22:39,445
Because they ate human beings as well.
- Where was that?
741
01:22:39,587 --> 01:22:45,082
In Kolongo, yes. Because he kept
them in the pool and the people...
742
01:22:45,226 --> 01:22:50,892
who had been condemned, they were
thrown to the crocodiles or to the lions.
743
01:22:51,032 --> 01:22:53,262
Because the lions were here.
744
01:22:53,401 --> 01:22:57,303
Yes.
- Yes, there are two lions here.
745
01:23:05,880 --> 01:23:09,043
That over there...
that's a chimpanzee, isn't it?
746
01:23:09,184 --> 01:23:12,415
Perhaps it's a chimpanzee.
He said that it was a gorilla...
747
01:23:12,554 --> 01:23:16,012
but he said that it was a chimpanzee
as well. I don't know which it is.
748
01:23:16,157 --> 01:23:18,455
No, it's not a gorilla.
A gorilla's as big as that.
749
01:23:18,593 --> 01:23:22,962
Monsieur, do you have a cigarette?
- A cigarette? Oh!
750
01:23:42,550 --> 01:23:44,450
No, you must, you must...
751
01:23:46,488 --> 01:23:47,887
There now.
752
01:24:34,269 --> 01:24:41,437
I can't look at this any more.
Can you turn it off now?
72489
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