All language subtitles for Echos.aus.einem.duesteren.Reich.1990.DVDRip.x264.eng

ECHOES FROM
A SOMBRE EMPIRE

Dear spectators, I am the director of
the film which you are going to see.

I am deeply worried about the
main character of the film,

Michael Goldsmith, who has been
missing in the chaos of the civil war,

waged in Liberia
for many weeks.

As we have lost any contact
with him,

I should like to read out
a letter to you

which he has directed to me shortly
before the start of shooting.

It has always been very important
to him to explain his basic attitude...

about shooting this film which
he wanted to do in the film itself.

"Dear Werner, I do not want
to take myself too important.

My story merely reflects an unimportant
rather bizarre isolation...

and nobody should make
the mistake and believe...

that I was spending
sleepless nights since then.

On the contrary: I was rather
cool, almost uninvolved,

almost like a scientist observing
himself like an insect.

Neither was I really afraid
of my torturers.

There was only an almost
indifferent thought:

how far would they go
this time?

I decided to follow the traces
of the past events...

which still sound within myself
like a remote echo.

I took this decision for
one single reason...

which has absolutely nothing to
do with my personal experience.

Nevertheless I want to start
this week already.

In fact, I was dreaming,
for the second time now...

that crabs intruded the earth...

large, orange crabs
that came out of the sea.

Nobody cared about them in the beginning.
But they became more and more.

Finally there were so many
of them that I got scared.

In the end, they covered the whole world
in many layers on top of one another.

The entire globe was covered
with them."

Good day, Madame. - Good day, Monsieur.
- I am sorry to bother you on a Sunday.

I have a particular reason to be
interested in the emperor, you know.

He almost killed me once.

I don't know if you realised that.
- No, I didn't.

And there are a number of things
which I can remember.

There are a number of things I remember
which I would like to put right with history.

I would like you to explain a few things
to me. My name is Michael Goldsmith.

Was it you who called on the phone?
- I did call you. Perhaps we could sit down?

Yes, we can sit down.

You know, Madame...

I experienced quite a lot with
the Emperor,

unreal experiences,

as unreal as this room and
these photographs.

It seems quite strange for me...

to be sitting here and looking
at these photographs.

You know, all these photographs...

all these photographs remind
me to a certain extent...

about an operetta which
he staged for himself.

It is... it is quite strange to see...

a collection of photographs of him
and of his family...

with Dien Bien Phu,
with Napoleon...

You know, for me, it is something
really fascinating...

that a man who knew he was
condemned to death in his country...

that he actually returns of his
own free will...

to present himself to the
authorities of that country...

and probably to present himself to the law.
Er... can you explain that to me?

What went through his mind
for him...

to leave this castle...

and to go via all types of routes
in order to go back to Bangui?

He always wanted to return. - Did he know
that he had been sentenced to death?

Yes, he knew that he had been
sentenced to death.

And he thought that he was going to be able
to overcome all that just by being there?

Perhaps that went
through his mind.

Yes.

And certainly the two men who were here
and who accompanied you in the plane.

Do you know anything about them?

Do you know who they were
and where they came from?

Do you know which French service
they came from...?

No... I don't know which
French service they came from.

I know they came here
with a lawyer,

a French lawyer.
- Oh, with a third person? - Yes.

Yes... and these three men
accompanied him...

er... during the journey to Brussels...?
- Yes, the lawyer stayed here...

and it was the two others who
accompanied us.

The journey to Brussels... yes...
there was one who stayed...

and one who took the plane
with us.

There was apparently
a moment...

when Bokassa did not feel at all
comfortable.

What happened in the plane?

It wasn't that he didn't feel comfortable
any more but he was... he was just quiet.

During the whole journey?
- Not during the whole journey.

When they were due
to arrive in Bangui.

Yes, and what happened then?
- It was then that he said to me:

"Augustine, the journey has misfired."
I asked him: "Why?"

He didn't say anything but he
thought the journey has misfired.

It's five years now
since I was detained...

with just a simple army pension.
23 years captain of the French Army.

23 years and what do I
get from it as a pension?

Well... let's say it amounts
to 7.000 Francs a month...

but with... social security...

with the deduction for social security
and the deduction for local taxes...

and other things I am not left with
anything more than 5.998 Francs...

that I get each month. What I want
is to return to my country.

What I want is not the passport stories as
you have heard. Passports to go where?

And where does the money
come from?

You know very well that if you want
to travel with a passport, then you have...

to pay for your ticket first of all, but what
am I going to use to pay my ticket with?

And if you travel,
you have to stay in a hotel...

in a country. But if I am going to stay
in a hotel what am I going to pay with?

So all the false rumours and the passport
stories don't interest me one little bit.

What interests me is that
the French government authorises...

me to be able to go back
to my country.

It has stopped me,
there is a government...

which has stopped me... well...
but I am addressing a prayer,

a very earnest prayer to
President Mitterand's government...

to let me go back
with my children.

Contrary to the French Constitution,

of the Charter
of the United Nations,

of the universal declaration
of Human Rights...

and also the Charter...

of the Organisation
of African unity.

Mr. President of the French Republic,

in following the African policy
of Giscard,

do you look on
the Central Africa...

as being a private hunting ground,
belonging to France?

Mr. President of
the French Republic,

can you explain to us the
difference between...

a military occupied
foreign country...

placed under your authority...

and the independence
of a sovereign...

state recognised by UNO
and by OAU?

Does Central Africa have a flag and
does it have a national anthem or not?

If I feel like a prisoner...

I am not very keen
at approaching this...

or that head of state so that I don't give
the impression of begging, you see.

I don't like begging but I want to claim
my right to go back to my country,

head of state or no head of state,
I must return because it is my country.

Because I have my parents
and my children there.

I have my family and I have
my land to cultivate.

Just look, Hadricourt, what can I do here
in the way of cultivation...

or in the way of breeding?
I can't do anything...

In actual fact he did not like this castle.
- It isn't that he did not like the castle...

but one could feel in him
that he did not want to stay.

It was just a provisional stay-over for him.
- Yes, just a provisional stay over,

he had to go back home. Even if
he had been sentenced to death.

Did he say that? - Yes. He said that
he had been sentenced to death...

and that he preferred to go back home
to allow himself to be judged...

and that if he had to die he would die
at home. - Did he actually say that? - Yes.

You know, the children are
grown up now...

and the children are not mine.
They do what they want.

They are 17, 16 and 15 years old. When I
say to one of the children "you do that"...

and if they do not want to do it,
I can't force them, can I?

How did they spend their time?

The children? - Yes, since you
have been back here?

Been back here...
they do what they want.

They go to school when they want.
I am called in by the police...

I am called in by the school and all that.
They get themselves stopped... - Why?

Because they go out at night!
They are minors.

Well, when they take the train and don't
pay for their ticket, the ticket collector...

he stops you, doesn't he?
- They do that as well? - Yes, they do that!

And you have no control over them...
- I have no control over them!

It was the father who had, who was the one
with the real authority over the children,

but I didn't have any. - And so when he
was there, they didn't do things like that?

When he was there, no, they didn't.
- Do they know why he has been sentenced?

They know why he has been sentenced, yes.
- All of them, even yours?

Yes, the little one... He asked me
the question not very long ago.

Because when he was at school and there
was one of his friends who asked him,

"Is it right that
your father is in prison?"

Then he gave him a kick and they
had a fight. He even cried.

He came and asked me,
"Is it true that father is in prison?"

I replied "no" to him.
- You said "no" to him? - "No"!

I told him that he should not listen
to everything that people say.

How many children
were there in total?

How many children were there, how many
children did he have... does he have?

He said he had 54 children.

54 children...
- Yes.

And how many mothers?
- There were quite a few mothers.

You don't know how many mothers.
- No, I don't.

Oh, my mother, er... I don't know her,
but I have heard of her.

I have some photographs of her
but apart from that I don't know her.

My father got to know her
when she was about 18 years old...

when... when she...
when she left, I was...

I was about 2 months old.
2 months.

And tell me where he met her and how.
- I do not know.

She was a dancer and,
well, she...

It was normally she who was
allowed to be the Empress...

but as it had to be someone from
my fathers country, then she just left.

She was Rumanian.

Yes, she is Rumanian.

Me, I... er... I don't know very
much about my mother at all.

I know that I left her. I was a year old.
That's all I know that she is Chinese.

Do you have any photographs? - What?
Do you have any photographs? Please say.

Sometimes there are people who say to us,

"Is it true that you eat people?"
or things like that...

But... But afterwards it's enough
to say no to them and then to yell...

at them a bit, that's all! - And then that
they eat children, that's not right, is it?

Yes, eating children for example,
they know it's wrong...

because he would have eaten us alive
since then. - Yes, he would have eaten us.

If we had been one of his descendants,
we would have eaten all those around us.

To have said...

that I am a cannibal
and that I kill children...

but... I am not a cannibal at all.

By the way, the object
of this conference...

is that we talk about
this problem of cannibalism.

I am not a cannibal. I am not one.
If you read my biography...

then you will see
that I have not deserved it.

And then he continues:
"First of all I get some rice...

and then I season it
with onions and rice...

and with all that is necessary
for a 'bonne cuisine'."

And as there was no-one
to help him...

he carried the body all on his own
apparently without any difficulty.

He put it on the oven that must have been
an absolutely gigantic oven...

and he started to turn it,
crying at the same time.

He took it off the oven
and put it back on again.

He began to add flavouring once again
and then... just listen carefully...

listen carefully how justice
was restored in 1980...

"I put the body on the stove...

and the hand of this person,
the dead person,

quite simply...
the hand of the person...

came off from my arm and it moved
along the floor without stopping."

Can you imagine this scene?
This hand in Berengo's kitchen...

which is living all on its own
and which is moving around.

It is on the testimony
of this man...

that the Criminal Court
of Bangui...

sentenced Jean Bedel Bokassa
in 1980.

Have you heard...

have you heard about
the human flesh which he ate?

But at the trial all the witnesses
refused to give testimony...

they did at last but they were
threatened at home.

At the trial there were
a lot ofwitnesses.

But what... what is the real truth?
- The truth is that he ate human flesh.

Did you see him doing it?
- I heard about it.

I heard it from all those
who were all round him...

who were close to him and who
did all this for him. - I heard about it.

But as there weren't any witnesses,
apparently the trial did not follow that up.

But the Central African was
looked on like an animal...

like a dog...
And you can love your dog...

and look after it but he didn't
look after any Central African.

The proof, the officials
didn't have their salaries.

And when a Central African
committed the slightest mistake...

it all depended on the Bokassa's mood.
There were days when Bokassa said...

he said, "Why did you do that?
Just disappear and get lost."

And then afterwards
there were days when...

the person was beaten to death
for the same mistake.

No, it wasn't a life which was
just and equitable in any way.

I know that thieves had their
ears cut off, didn't they?

That's right. He cut off the thieves' ears.
These thieves lived with their ears cut off.

But before cutting off
their ears...

he went down to the prison himself
and he beat them... he tortured them...

he beat the thieves who were
in the prison. Some of them were dead.

And he displayed the bodies and the
wounded to the public for 24 hours.

And he did this to the students
as well, didn't he?

He went himself to the prison...
to kill some of them.

Yes, that's what was said
at the trial as well.

I said to myself that I had to
regard Bokassa as an enemy...

and after I had been liberated
I became obsessed with the idea...

of doing everything to overthrow him.
But I was very calm and discreet.

When I was called to the government on
certain occasions to this government.

I was really polite so that
he didn't realise anything.

I was very polite and very correct
with him. He even invited me privately:

we went for a meal in his plane
and we shared the same apartment.

He made me go with him to Uganda
and to Zaire. - Did he really?

Yes, he did, to the lvory Coast. - And did he
threaten you sometimes? - Yes, very often.

What did he do? - What did you say?
- How did he threaten you?

He said "Oh, but the people say that
the president should return as president...

but before that happens I would
torture him and then I would kill him."

And he said that in front of all
the ministers and counsellors.

And when that wasn't possible, there were
moments when the council of ministers...

were arriving and he was taking out
all kinds of automatic pistols...

and mitrailles, putting them
on the table, saying:

"Well, if anyone wants to replace me
as president let him raise his hand now.

I want to let him know
what ammunition I use."

He said that to intimidate you?
- Yes, always with intimidation in mind.

One day after sounding out opinions
the people said:

"Down with Bokassa. We want
President Dacko to return...

because we still fond memories
of him".

Yes...
- And when he heard about this...

he said: "Well, my dear Dacko, I am sorry
for you". Later on he called me "David"...

because he called me by my first name
sometimes because we were both parents.

"Oh, but I pity you for the fate
that I am reserving for you.

Before the people call
for you to become president...

I am going to torture you
before you are killed.

I pity you for the fate
that I have reserved for you."

He said this in front of all the
ministers and the counsellors.

At the end I managed to escape eventually
and to leave the country discreetly.

And finally, the Empire...
who had the idea of this Empire?

Bokassa. - He himself?
- He thought he was Napoleon.

Oh, I think it is all an evolution
of character.

At the beginning I think
Bokassa was a small peasant...

whose father had been killed
by the settlers

and who joined the army and who led the
existence of a soldier. It was the war...

A french soldier?
- A french soldier.

And he will always be very proud
to have been a French soldier...

and the famous legend of Bokassa
the mercenary sub-officer...

will always exist even when Bokassa is
no longer captain of the French army.

So he leaves, he goes to war and he
is on the side of the vanquishers...

with a head who is General de Gaulle who
is the general vanquisher and absolute...

myth for him and then, as the years go by,
he lives in reality like a French citizen.

He is not African. He leaves Africa.
He is 18 and will return there.

He will have spent 20 years outside his
country in France and in Indo-China...

because he went to war in Indo-China
and he returned to Africa.

It is... I was going to say a French officer
who is returning home but someone...

who at the same time feels superior to the
other Africans because he had really lived...

he had travelled throughout the world
and had led French soldiers...

white, and when he took command at the
beginning. I think he was a young officer...

who was in that class
of progressive officers of the 60s.

And then, very quickly
because it is what Saint Just said:

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely". It is
true that during the course of the years...

he is not going to stop
he is where he is.

First of all he is going to be colonel, then
general, marshal, president for life...

and then emperor.
That's not enough for him.

There is always a type of yearning and a
quest and there is always this ambiguity...

with him to be very African...
he knew his people very well...

and, at the same time, I would
not say contempt but the feeling...

of being somebody above
the others and separate from them...

And then it is true that
the attention which the world...

gave him did not help things
because of his eccentricities.

After he was always received
by all the foreign states.

If you look at a lot of
official ceremonies...

he is regarded as head of state.

He spoke at the general assembly
of the United Nations.

He was received by the Pope. Consequently,
he is someone who finally says to himself:

"I proclaimed myself emperor in the presence
of the world and the world accepted it."

This, this is really
the end of the Empire.

Do you know who it is?
Who is it?

Bokassa.
- Bokassa?

He had already fallen
before you were born, I think.

Oh, my God, how things
have changed.

You know, the police brought me
by car there. I was in handcuffs.

They took the handcuffs off
and I came forward.

I came forward all on my own
and the Emperor came towards me.

And we met each other here.

I gave a bow and said, "Your Majesty"
very respectfully because...

I thought he was going
to talk with me.

Instead of which he was like that...

he was furious and
he came towards me...

and raised his walking stick and hit me
on the head very hard and I fell down.

And, you know,
they were all round me.

There was a small person if I remember
rightly, there was a small person,

he must have been about your age,
dressed as a marshal of the army.

and they all beat me unmercifully
and I fell to the ground.

My glasses, my glasses fell
to the ground.

Like that, and I saw Bokassa's foot
coming down onto my glasses...

and then he crushed them,
like that, saying: "There we are.

You will have to manage
without these glasses."

Just like that I stayed for a month
in prison without my glasses.

That was very hard.

Just look at that, that's the tapestry,
it's made of velvet.

Yes.
- And who took it away?

The people from the neighborhood.
- Yes.

They used it to upholster their rooms.
And that's...

What's that?

A circular bed.
- A circular bed?

It was completely dismounted and stolen
by the plunderers, wasn't it?

How many wives did Bokassa have?
- I don't know. - You don't know.

That's the end of the Empire.

Just think of it, he kept millions there,
didn't he? Can you open this for me? - Yes.

There were...

All the treasures
of the country were in there.

Come and look.
Just look at that?

It is true that it was opened with a pistol.
- With a pistol? Oh... yes.

This is the kitchen, isn't it?

That... And he cooked people here
sometimes? Is it true? - It's true.

There were bodies here which
were kept in the fridge.

There's the fridge.
- The fridge, there?

It was there that he prepared
the bodies for consumption.

He put them in there.

Mr. Dacko, you were president...

of Central Africa
before Bokassa and afterwards.

There was the story of how you
were imprisoned...

It must have been very hard, wasn't it?
- Yes, it was very hard, yes.

I was three and a half years in prison
without talking to anyone.

Three and a half years? - Yes. He
refused to allow me to talk to anyone.

A soldier brought me something
to eat and some water.

He was not allowed to talk to me.
- Was it Camp de Roux or N'garagba?

Some of the time in Camp de Roux
and some of the time in N'garagba.

And what did they do to you in the cell?
- I was naked, with chains on my feet.

With handcuffs on my hands.
And then naked on the cement.

All the time?
- All the time!

When was it?
- Up to '69.

And afterwards I was assigned to
the residence in the village...

for another three and a half years. Without
being able to move out of the house.

I was in prison for 7 years
one way or another.

Berengo was rich in anecdotes:

incidents which make me laugh today but
which were tragic at the point of time.

The people talked a lot
about the Rumanian woman.

After having settled the Rumanian in the
Kolongo villa there was a period of time...

when the Emperor
didn't come any more.

And because he didn't come any
more, what did the Rumanian do?

She was very young and very
beautiful and she still wanted to live.

She finished up by corrupting
his guards.

And, one by one, she asked the
guards to share Bokassa's bed.

And when Bokassa got to know
about it after an enquiry...

those guards who had shared his bed
were put under arrest.

They were executed.

The rumanian, for example.

At one point of time Bokassa was
on an official visit in Rumania...

and he met a dancer
from the ballet group.

He found her to his liking
and finally the dancer left with him.

And then she disappeared. And so people
are going to say that it was Bokassa.

And then it was learned later on that she
was really an agent of the Securitate...

and that she actually returned
to Rumania once she had been "grilled".

When she returned the Rumanian
lived in another villa.

And one morning after having had breakfast
she took the bicycle of her hotel boy.

She took the bicycle, got on it and
went for a ride around the village...

just at the moment when
Bokassa returned. And Bokassa,

furious at seeing that his wife was
on the bicycle of the hotel boy said:

"So, so... this boy was having an
affair with my wife."

And in a scene of jealousy he had
the hotel boy beaten to death.

It was even the cause of the death
of a number of Central Africans.

You know, there were moments
when we wondered...

where we were going and what
would happen to us.

Take the Russians, for example, they...
after having obtained the authorisation...

from the Government
to visit Lobaye.

When they returned to the Pissa
commissariat 70 kilometres from Bangui...

they were intercepted on the instructions
of Bokassa and brought to Berengo.

For 2 hours they were kept standing
and Bokassa insulted the Russians...

and talked of Russia as being the cause
of all the wars which had taken place...

throughout the world and all
the demonstrations in the world,

and after two hours, after having maligned
them, he said "please come into my salon."

He offered them champagne
and whisky and then said...

"forget everything I have said" and then
he drove back to Bangui. So you can see...

As soon as he assumed power
he asked the French ambassador...

to find the daughter which he had with
a Vietnamese whilst he was in Vietnam.

Immediately afterwards,
lady presented his daughter

and Bokassa baptised her
as Martine.

The formalities were completed
and she was sent to Bangui...

where she was received like
a head of state with motorcycles...

and guards of honour and all that.

Then there's the story
of the two Martines.

It is a really extraordinary story because
Bokassa was serving in Indo-China...

and like a lot of French soldiers
serving in Indo-China...

he had quite a few friendships and
relationships with the local population.

He fell in love with a young
Indo-Chinese girl and had a daughter.

Then he left without taking care of her at
all. And then, when he returned to power...

and when he had taken his
fill of all the honour involved,

he wanted to find
his daughter again.

Then he found the first daughter who was
called Martine. And then, lo and behold...

it was realised that the Martine
who he thought was his daughter...

wasn't his real daughter at all. Then
the second Martine arrived in Bangui.

And there is Bokassa who found
himselfwith two daughters.

And then he said very generously: "I will
keep even the one who has deceived me...

as my daughter". And so he had two
daughters and he brought them together.

And it is extraordinary...

how fate persisted in repeating
the same things for the two girls.

Then the two Martines were to
get married on the same day.

They were going to marry two
Central African personalities:

one was going to marry
Doctor Dédé Abodé...

and the other was going to marry
Captain Obrou. And, curiously enough...

the two son-in-laws suffered the same fate.
Captain Obrou attempted a coup d'état.

Bokassa was at the Bangui airport
one day...

and suddenly someone threw hand
grenades and then they didn't explode...

which reinforced the legend
of"Bokassa la baraqua".

Fidel Obrou was arrested,
condemned to death and executed.

On the other hand, the other
son-in-law, Bruno Dédé Abodé...

followed in the footsteps
of his father-in-law...

and he was involved
in the assassination...

of the person whom I could
almost call his nephew.

In other words, the son of Obrou died in
mysterious circumstances in the clinic...

A baby?
- A baby, a newly-born baby...

In actual fact it was poisoned
and it was Bruno Dédé Abodé...

who was actually accused of
having arranged the assassination.

On the fall of Bokassa amongst the charges
which were levied against Dédé Abodé...

he was charged with the death of the child
and he was sentenced to death and executed.

How are you going to explain
the story?

It is... something which...

...which is true.
...which is true.

Is it the type of thing which you
read about in books...

in novels, which you see
in the cinema but it is...

It is just for this reason that
this story is interesting, isn't it?

Yes, but I think it is fate
and God who made it.

Yes. - There. It was destiny
and God which made it...

that my father, who left to
go to war in Vietnam...

got to know my mother, that
she saw that he had an accident...

that he broke a left finger, that he would
never be able to bend the finger again.

You see, he has always
had a finger like that. - Oh yes.

And when you see that my father always
wears a large ring like that to hide it.

It was thanks to that finger that my mother
was able to recognise her husband.

Because my mother asked him, if he had
broken his finger on such and such a day...

at such and such a time when
she was pregnant with me.

And my father was then sure...

thanks to the finger, "Yes, my wife
and my daughter Martine."

But nonetheless my father always thought
that the first Martine was his daughter.

He didn't worry
about it any more.

But what interested me
was your story...

with your so-called sister.
How did it happen exactly?

Did she always know that she
was not really Bokassa's daughter?

No, no, she didn't know at all.
- She really didn't know? - No.

Even when I arrived
she didn't know who I was.

She thought I was a secretary
of my father.

She didn't realise that I was
a Vietnamese just like her!

So she really thought she was
Bokassa's daughter?

No, she knew only too well
because she had been warned.

She said that everyone
in his country always said...

"Passi, Passi" to her and
Passi was his name.

And there was someone who came
to look for her mother...

and offered her 5'000 dollars
for her to go to Central Africa...

in order to identify a man
who said that he was your father.

But he wasn't your father. But a
President. It wasn't necessary that...

Was it was the French who did it?
- Er, yes...

It was someone who worked
in the French Consulate in Vietnam...

who said that she had become
an adoptive child. - Yes.

And we lived together
for two years.

Ah, ah. In Bangui? - Yes. We were
in the same house for two years...

with my father,
just like a normal family.

And eventually the two of you
got married on the same day...

Yes, it happened.
When I arrived from Central Africa...

Martine had already arrived well before
me. But I don't hold it against her...

I don't hold it against her because she
was not to blame. It was never her fault.

It was what other people
did that put her in her place.

She was there to bear
the consequences.

I was there to share fortune and
ill-fortune with her both of us.

Unfortunately it didn't end well for both
of us... both for me and for her as well.

And I married and she also
found herself a husband.

My father said: "So that one daughter
does not become jealous of the other...

we will hold the marriage on the same day.
The one of them will not be able to say...

that her marriage was bigger
and the other was smaller.

On the same day with the same guests
and with the same presents."

We got married.

I view of the fact that my sister's husband
married with one idea in mind...

he had to pay for that
with his life.

And my husband,
he has paid for it...

and it has also enchained
my life at the same time.

And my husband was... he was asked
to do a job of work and he did it.

No-one is accused when things
turn out alright.

But once you are no longer in power...
when the boot is on the other foot...

then everyone is accused. People
pointed out what my husband had done.

This and all that... He was
sentenced... And then, that was all...

The husband of the Martine in
question, of the wrong Martine...

he was accused of a coup d'état and
was executed. - Obrou? - Yes.

He was executed. Then it was decided
to repatriate his wife Martine...

the wrong Martine.

That was in February '76. She was
to have been repatriated to Vietnam...

but she never took the plane to Bangui.
She disappeared from circulation.

She was killed as well.
- Yes, yes.

And her child as well?
- Yes.

It wasn't the doctor...

Dédé Abodé who had been sentenced
to death. Yes, by the Bangui tribunal.

For having... - For having
killed the child, yes.

You know, I was in...

the N'garagba prison
for a month and...

Were you?
- Yes, I was.

At the very beginning Bokassa...

sentenced me to death as a spy.
- You?

Yes. And I was
in the same cell...

as your brother-in-law Obrou
for a week.

Yes. - He wrote
an inscription on the wall...

asking the people who could
read it...

to look after his family
and all that.

It was dramatic. He really sentenced me
to death, in just a moment.

Dacko, you know, the president
Dacko who followed...

he had me come to his office
and he showed it to me.

He said: "There you are. It was Bokassa
who signed your death sentence."

I was a journalist. - Oh, you came
to the country as a journalist!

I was there as a journalist who went
to do a report on the coronation...

which was supposed to be
taking place.

An excellent impression. Please
send my regards to all the personnel...

of Antenne 2 and particularly to France,
to the president of the French Republic,

to the Prime Minister, to Jacques Chirac
and to Mr. Jacques Rocard...

and all my French friends all the police and
particularly to Admiral Phillipe De Gaulle...

and to the whole family
of General De Gaulle.

Please tell them that their valiant
soldier, Bokassa Jean Bedel...

of the Forces Francaises Libres, F.F.L.,
fighting good, good, withdraw...

exceptional amongst African combatants.
He has replied to the justice of his country.

Can you explain to me a little
how it happened and how he is.

Yes, of course. I can see him. I don't have
any bureaucratic obstacles to overcome.

In the same way as in all other countries
of the world lawyers have the right...

to see their clients. And it is in this
position as a lawyer that I can see him.

I have been to see him every day
since I returned to Bangui.

I can see him in his prison,
in his type of a castle...

as Louis-Ferdinand Céline
would say.

It is there that he is detained, in a
military enclosure in a military prison.

In actual fact it is a military prison.
He occupies a cell which is probably...

5 x 3 metres and which
is a real cell for prisoners...

just like all other prisoners.
He is isolated, completely isolated.

He goes out twice a day
into a courtyard...

each time for an hour's walk. But he
is alone when he goes for a walk.

He doesn't ever see anyone, he...
- He only sees his guards certainly. - Yes.

And on Saturdays he can see
various members of his family:

his wives, his sisters, and his relations,
those who come and bring him a bit of food.

Yes, those who come
to see him every Saturday.

Otherwise he only goes out
twice a day in the courtyard...

which is about 5 x 10 metres...

and in which there is
a type of large wooden chair...

in which he sits and then there is
another chair, all broken, in which I sit.

Naturally I let him have the good chair.
And we speak quite openly there.

We have more than an hour to talk with
each other. Since my arrival in Bangui.

Are there no guards watching? - During the
conversation there are no guards around.

Nevertheless, you know that
the conversations,

the correspondence lawyers
and clients are always secret.

And they always respect
this secrecy here.

It should be remembered that the
prisoner is always alone,

a very isolated person and the
lawyer means a lot to him.

He also writes to me very often and
to show you what extent he is mystical...

he always makes the sign
of the cross to me now.

At the beginning he signed
his letters "Bokassa 1"...

and now he always signs
"The Apostle Bokassa 1".

He thinks he is a sort
of apostle of Christ.

And people talk a lot about
his religious obsessions...

Is there... - I don't think that they
are obsessions, they are real, they are.

For more than a year now he has
been in a... in a complete mysticism.

He only reads religious books.
- Does he really?

Except for papers and journals,
he reads the Bible.

Yesterday he showed me all the papers
and all the religious books which he had:

the Bible of Jerusalem and
other prayer books...

and I could see that the pages were worn.
It is true that he reads them every day.

He wears a cross and he comes
to see me in very simple clothes.

It is very, very touching:
the first day he was in his pyjamas...

the second day he was in a type of djellaba,
the third day in a sort of laced shirt...

all of them very simple. And he
always wears a cross round his neck.

And I can... I can confirm that he
actually only reads religious books,

the Bible of Jerusalem
in particular. - Yes, that...

I don't think he was ever mad
and that he is mad.

No, I don't think so.

He finally married you by force.
- Yes, by force.

And then it lasted two years
afterwards didn't it?

Yes, about two years,
two and a half years...

I did a little holiday job, er...
in a bank.

A bank?
- Yes, in Bangui.

And... I don't know whether
I should tell you all the details.

It was he who sent for me then.
He sent for me...

he sent for me through a man who came
there to the bank and he said to me:

"Your papa would
like to see you."

Your papa would like to see you.
- And there I was!

At that moment I did not
understand who my papa was.

Yes, and you went then?
- No, oh no. I asked him... I asked him:

"But who is my papa?",
and he told me about him.

And what happened then?
- What happened then...

This man led me
to the Palace then.

Yes. - And then it was on that
day that I met him...

And it made quite
a strange impression on me...

Yes.
...to see... to see Bokassa.

Yes. He was already head of state,
he... - He was...

was already head of state and he
had already become a legend.

Yes.
- A myth. - Yes.

A somewhat terrifying myth...

and it shocked me
to see him like that.

At that time I was still innocent...
very innocent and...

And then he took me by the hand
and he carried me into his room.

And in this room there was
a large mirror...

and when I saw myself
in this mirror with him...

at my side and he... he had
actually started to undress me...

and always talking,
with very gentle words.

When I saw myself in this mirror
with him...

I had...

I was in short I practically had
a nervous breakdown.

I started to cry but it was crying like
a child. Crying with very big sobs and...

and I couldn't restrain
myself any more.

And he understood. He still had
a trait of humanity. - He sent you away.

Yes, he allowed me
to return home.

And then, when I had told my mother
what had happened...

she sent for a car and
she packed us all into the car...

and then we left that very night
but it was like a catastrophe.

And when we found our way to
this frontier town the police came.

We saw the police coming and they asked
us to follow them. And in this way...

we were detained
in this frontier town.

Because, as you know, the political
detainees were not in the same place...

as the others, in a place
called "La Porte Rouge".

And there was "La Porte Rouge" for men
and "La Porte Rouge" for women.

And my brothers were
at "La Porte Rouge" for men.

And we never saw each other during the
two years which we spent in this prison...

even though we were close
to each other.

One night
someone opened the cell...

we were already sleeping...
someone opened the cell...

and we saw two armed militaries
and a small machine gun.

The impression they made
was terrible...

and we didn't know where
we were going, obviously.

And at that particular moment...

we were sure that
something was going to happen...

or that we were going
to disappear in one way or another...

that was for sure
because the night...

I was always very thin as well...

very bony and very weak as well
and this was the state...

that I was in when I found myself...

in his apartment in
the Palais de la Renaissance.

And this time he was there he was
there waiting for me when I arrived.

He took me by the hand
as he had always done before.

Very gently as if nothing...
as if nothing had happened.

He took me by the hand and he called me
"my daughter" as he used to do before

and then he carried me
to the bathroom.

He filled the bath with warm water
and with bath foam.

He made a foam bath and he put me
into the bath.

He... in actual fact
he almost treated me like a child.

And I was...
I really was very, very weak...

and I couldn't have done all that myself.
And... and then...

I got out of the bath...

and he continued to talk to me.
I understood at that particular moment...

that this time I was going
to succumb and be free.

But it wasn't for me as far
as I personally was concerned...

It was more for my relatives, er...
my brothers, above all my brothers.

Because the youngest one
was 14 at that point of time.

And, as you know, it was
easy to die in these prisons...

And, finally, I stayed in this
apartment for three days...

and at the end of the third day
I dared to take the risk.

"My relatives, my mother
and my brothers and sisters...

how are they? What is going
to happen to them?"

It was then that he said:

"Oh, but I have forgotten them.
I shall send for them immediately."

You know, whilst you were
in prison...

in N'garagba I was there as well.

Perhaps you didn't
hear about me.

No I didn't, that is certain...
- But I was in a cell.

I was chained,
both my hands and my feet...

But why? What...
- Because he had decided that I was a spy.

Just like that? A French spy?

In fact he suspected me
of being a South African spy.

It was strange.

I had done a report
on his coronation.

Oh yes.
- And... the report...

I sent it by telex
and the telex was messed up...

because there was a power failure
in the transmission station...

in the village and everything
went out all messed up.

Then the superintendent of the post
office, he took the copy of the telex...

and he ran to the police
and said to them:

"We have a spy, we have a spy.
This has all been sent by code."

I can't recall
my transfer to Bangui.

You know, they collected me
and I was completely...

Yes, unconscious, yes.
- Unconscious.

And it took 10 or 12 days...

in the prison in Bangui before I realised
that I wasn't in Berengo any more.

But you could have died?
- Yes, of course.

And then, what is surprising as well is that
over and above the appearance of a trial...

I was about to say
very westernised...

there were all the non-dits and all
the African beliefs assembled there.

I can remember this woman for example:
Bokassa was accused of having set up...

the assassination of General Mandaba who
was one of the officers of the gendarmerie.

And the president said to Bokassa:

"You had Mandaba killed
but why did you kill his mother?"

And then they talked about
the mother of Mandaba...

and the mother of General Obrou and they
said, "But this woman has three bosoms."

And this really astonished
us obviously:

why were they interested in that?
And it was then that all the beliefs...

and creeds were revived because a woman
had three bosoms. She could be a witch.

If she is a witch, it is not as serious
as if she were the mother of a family.

It was then that the very
African trait came to the surface...

but it never came out
in the open.

Is this all there is of the
zoological garden here? - Yes, yes.

Oh... because I am looking
for the animals which fed...

on human beings at the time
of Bokassa in his...

in the garden in Kolongo,
you know.

The garden in Kolongo?
- That's down there in Kolongo. But here...

Yes, but the lions which he had
down there...

The lions, here they are.
- Are they here? Did they die eventually?

Yes, they have been dead since...
at least since '84.

Yes, and the crocodiles
from the other side?

Yes, the crocodiles, they are still
here. Over there in the water.

Where are...
where are the crocodiles?

They're over there, the crocodiles.
- There, in the pool? - Yes.

Because they ate human beings as well.
- Where was that?

In Kolongo, yes. Because he kept
them in the pool and the people...

who had been condemned, they were
thrown to the crocodiles or to the lions.

Because the lions were here.

Yes.
- Yes, there are two lions here.

That over there...
that's a chimpanzee, isn't it?

Perhaps it's a chimpanzee.
He said that it was a gorilla...

but he said that it was a chimpanzee
as well. I don't know which it is.

No, it's not a gorilla.
A gorilla's as big as that.

Monsieur, do you have a cigarette?
- A cigarette? Oh!

No, you must, you must...

There now.

I can't look at this any more.
Can you turn it off now?