Original subtitles

This is the small town of Aztec New

Mexico located about two and a half

hours northwest of Albuquerque depending

upon how fast you drive along the often

deserted highway it's close to the Four

Corners area that geographic landmark

for the states of Utah Arizona Colorado

and New Mexico intersect one another

like most places it has a story to tell

with Aztec however that story goes far

beyond the norm you might even say that

the Aztec story is truly out of this world.

These days if you told a friend that you

were off to New Mexico to visit the site

of an alleged flying saucer crash that

friend would probably assume you were

headed to Roswell for the past three

decades or so this has been a pretty

safe assumption as the Roswell incident

has become an integral part of American

pop culture but travel back in time to

the late 1940s and early 1950s and your

friend would have assumed that you had a

different destination in mind.

Because long before Roswell became the most

famous UFO incident there was as Ted the

first of the crashed flying saucer

stories the gist of the Aztec tale is

that in 1948 flying saucer complete with

anywhere from 14 to 18 bodies crashed in

Aztec New Mexico and recovered under

cover of high secrecy by the US military

and in various formats and permutations

the tales been circulated for the last

50 years some people consider it to be an outright

hoax some people are sitting on the fence other

people consider it to be genuine some people

consider it maybe too genuine incident

but it occurred somewhere else.

Timeline of Aztec would

be a report from the oil field workers a

little after 5:00 a.m. on March 25th

1948 basically the first report came in

as a large brush fire on a Mesa off of

Hart Canyon Road as the oil field

workers got out there they discovered a

large disc proximately a hundred feet in

diameter sitting on top of a Mesa that

had nothing to do with the brush fire

but because of the oil drip tanks out

there at that time people from El Paso

oil company were notified that they

should get out there to investigate the

fire and any subsequent danger it could pose.

Upon getting out there they noticed a

large disk on the Mesa military showed

up later that day late

lunchtime early afternoon.

The one local law enforcement officer had warned the

locals that the military would be there

eventually that they had been notified.

The Aztek is a fascinating case because

it was the original if you will crash

flying Saucer story and it surfaced at

first in 1949 in columns written by

Frank Scully and in the Daily Variety it

ultimately led to a best-selling book of

Scully wrote and I think it sold

something on the order of 60,000 copies

in 1950 and hardcover and then went on

to 12 editions overseas and on and on

and on I mean it was remarkable how

successful it was it's obvious he struck

some kind of real Court it was also

total nonsense and and Scully was either

a one of these fellows who knew enough a

knew enough not to ask questions he

didn't want to hear the answers to or he

was genuinely duped by a fellow named

Silas Newton and a sidekick of his named

Leo Gebauer who became known as Dr. G in Scully's book.

And Frank Scully's book behind

the flying saucers which came out

in 1950 he tells the Aztecs story as

told by to him by Silas Newton

and Leo kept power

Silas Newton and Leo get Bauer then

introduced Frank Scully

to at least eight scientists that

allegedly worked on the Aztec crash.

Frank Scully took these 8 people and

molded them into one Dr. G.

The skeptics like to attack the story if they haven't

researched it and say the Dr. G was Leo

get power, Leo get power was no more a

scientist than anybody he was an

electrical engineer that worked with

Silas Newton more of a glorified

electrician more than electrical

engineer Frank Scully and his book

plainly states that D. G is up to 8 scientists

that worked on the recovered UFO at Aztec.

Essentially these two guys

were con men who were in the process of

trying to peddle a Doodlebug which is a

gas industry tag for a device that will

find oil and gas but of course doesn't.

And in his case it was a machine that

Donnelly found oil and gas with gold and

water and pretty much anything the mark

was interested in finding and on top of

that Gebauer had invented something

similar which also supposedly could

assess the health of a person so this

was sort of an all-in-one

do-it-all kind of thing but what they

did which was unusual and made their

little bit unique in it was that they

they claimed that their Doodlebug was

better than anybody else's because it

was using technology that had been taken

from the flying saucer that allegedly

crashed near Aztec and therefore

obviously it was far superior, Dr. G our

friend Dee Bower was supposedly a

magnetics expert who was one of those

called in by the Air Force when the

saucer was tracked and to ground near

Aztec where it floated to ground not

actually crashed and presumably disabled

by a high-powered radar somewhere nearby

that was such was the claim.

Anyhow the whole thing was a total con job

and it was quickly recognized as such

and that really exposed a detail of 1952

by JP Kahn it was an investigative

reporter I think it which was with the

San Francisco Examiner obviously and he

did a four or five month investigation

in detail including

managed managing to con the con man out

of an example or a sample of the

mysterious metal that the saucer was

made out of turned out to be the sort of

stuff that you made pots and pans out of

actually but you know he was a very very

very sharp reporter who did a really

good job and true magazine published his

article in 1952 exposing these guys and

this led to the district attorney in in

Denver Colorado prosecuting Newton and

the bower for fraud and various other

sorts of associated charges.

Anyway they were convicted in December of 1952 and

basically the whole notion of crash

flying saucers went away and people who

take flying saucers UFOs seriously for

decades wouldn't touch anything like

that with a ten-foot pole until Roswell came along.

I think where some of the

skeptics attack the the Aztec story is

why would one two or up to eight scientist

confide with Frank Scully and that's an

important question but you have to look

at who Frank Skelly was back then you

have to look at how the media operated

back then we didn't have CNN we didn't

have national network TV you had a very

tight group of journalists the Dorothy

Kilgallen to the Walter Winchell's the

Frank Scully's that quite frankly were

the most credible people of their their

day and journalism and that would

probably be an automatic person that you

would go to to break a story like that.

The other thing you read Frank's Kelly's

writings the scientists that approached

him did not think that was going to be a

secret for a long time they thought that

story would break within a year they're giving

Frank Scully a little advance on the Aztec incident.

The first UFO related documentary

made was a biography of legendary

Roswell investigators Stanton T Friedman

if the Aztec incident has a freedman

that is to say someone with respected

professional credentials who has chosen

to undertake a search for the truth

about the UFO phenomenon it is this man

Scott Ramsey a successful businessman

from North Carolina.

Frank Scully might have broken the Aztec

story but it is Ramsey who has rescued

the tale from obscurity and who has

challenged after years of research the long-held

view that the whole thing was simply a hoax.

In looking at the story that was

one thing that intrigued me was

looking at the claims made back in 1950

by these eight scientists and one was

the secret radar basis so as we started

to look into the claims that Dr. G was

telling Frank Scully and we compared to

what we know now when you go back 50

some years later and look at we what

we've been able to get Declassified from

the Air Force the Atomic Energy

Commission somebody back then was

definitely in the loop leaking good

information to Frank Scully

it took us over you know 50 years now

getting records Declassified to back up

the claims that they were making in 1951

was the infamous radar basis the

top-secret radar bases that were located

in New Mexico we went out searching for

him in 1999 using topographic maps on if

we were to put a radar base in New

Mexico where would we put it based on

height direction location and out of

dumb luck quite frankly we found the

first one near al bottom which is about

I guess air miles probably 40 or 50

miles north of Los Alamos we went to the Air Force

Maxwell Air Force Base down in

Montgomery Alabama and asked for the

records on these at the same time the

state of New Mexico was doing a

historical research on anything that had

anything to do with the Cold War so this

became a perfect fit we went down to

kind of a dual-purpose they released the

records but we had a problem the air for

spaces under the radar bases under the

airforce didn't exist till 1950

well we couldn't tie that to Aztec

because Aztec of course was 1948 looking

at the records in great detail we saw

things like the first quarterly report

for their capital expenditures they

needed a roof they needed a water heater

they needed some improvements in

electrical work mainly some transformers

and we asked herself question if this

base was just built why would they be

needing to requisition a water heater a

new roof on a building and new

transformers so we went back and we did

some digging and turned out that the

radar bases were built in 1946 which we

have all the historical information on

those the Air Force did acquire the

bases from 1950 to 1957

but the Atomic Energy Commission bases from 1950 to 1957

requisitioned those there at the radar

bases from 1946 until they turned them

over to the Air Force in 1950 there were

three we had Continental Divide which is

out near Gallup Alvaro which is near

Chama Tia Maria area and Moriarty which

is due east of Albuquerque that put up a

perfect triangle around Kirkland Air

Force Base Sandia National Labs and Los

Alamos which was the main purpose of

those radar bases was to protect those

Atomic Energy Commission installations.

Ramsey who has done a tremendous amount of research on

as to he found these places you know the

if you look at the history of the air

defense command and the set up of the

lash up radar system which was the

beginning of our old continental air

defense radar system and all of that

there were no air defense command radars

at those sites at the time of the

alleged crash saucer incident but he

found out that there were radars there

and they were under the control of the

Atomic Energy Commission when they had

something whatever something to do with

some sort of vague feeble attempt to

provide for defense against air attack

at Los Alamos the National Lab the bomb

lab as far as the rest of New Mexico is

concerned there just weren't any such

radars you know they haven't white sands

they had radars of white sands for

tracking captured v2 s that they were

launching down there and other things of

that sort but those were again these

were world war ii retreads essentially

there was nothing exotic.

What kind of people did they have serving here is

easier does it looks like a short straw

kind of gig referred yeah yeah that's

what I thought when I first saw it but

my god you really had to do something

something wrong to get here but boy you

look at the reports these guys were the cream of the crop

three three bases they really well they

had some pretty pretty impressive

resumes let's put it that way.

We looked into the type of radar that they were

using at these three installations

especially al bata had a very very

powerful radar it was an experimental

radar for the US Navy it was a high

microwave which all radars are they all

work on some form of signal microwave

this one was extremely powerful we even

have the manuals telling the operators

the do's and don'ts of aircraft were in

the area keeping in mind that was a

restricted airspace back in those days.

This is the old power generation

building they had five diesel generators

in here they would they would pump the

kerosene the diesel fuel in here through

the pump station the pump house right

there and this was back up these radar

units took a lot of a lot of electricity

to run and these were backups you can

see from the slabs here there were five

then all the switchgear and all the

cabling that would drop down and go over

to the bunker next door so that's the

pumper over there is it that's the main

radar let's go take a look at that. -sure-.

So this is a pretty powerful radar

we're talking about. -oh yeah.

When the Air Force took it over it became the Tia and Maria

and then later on in life el bottom. -Yeah.

Here to go in? -Sure let's let's take a look.

You're not afraid of bat to me. -Wow

I don't want to get bitten by one. -Yep

This is that right here.

Probably won't want to go back in there.

Probably not okay I guarantee you don't.

And some people speculate that the radar here was

powerful enough to interfere somehow

with an alien spacecraft that's. - That's a theory.

It might have brought it down.

And they would have had similar radar

stations I assume down by Roswell.

They had one in Corona and if you read the

historical reports we were going through

last night they also had one down at walker.

Which was Roswell right right.

Coincidence -yeah maybe.

If these guys came flying across millions upon

millions of miles of space if if they

flew from our billions if they came from

another star and I planted around

another star is it likely that they

wouldn't be shielded against the kind of

feeble radiation that would be coming

out of our radar sets I mean how likely

is it that they would have forgotten

about that particular part of the

spectrum and then they come they get

here and they get shot out of this guy.

And people are saying oh they're

dropping out of the skies what is all

this business how could a sophisticated

grab from far away crash you know we had

two shuttles go to very sophisticated craft.

I think they may run into the

unexpected it was a radar beam or all

kinds of other things.

Accidents happen that's the way it is

and I think if you look at the

mothership descriptions he's huge

monster UFOs if you will which are seen

to have little ones going in and out of

them one big vehicle could carry a whole

bunch of these little vehicles if they

lose one they lose one okay

explorers Magellan didn't make it around

the planet his ship made it he didn't make it.

I think that Scott Ramsey has

been a forerunner in this and has done

some excellent research

when he started there were a lot more

skeptics than there are today there were

a lot of people who said they were crazy

that this was just a scam there was

nothing to it and he's proved that there

were radar sites secret radar bases that

were sending out microwave rays

microwave beams that that could have not

a flying saucer out of the sky and

caused it to crash land north of Aztec

and he's proved that fact so that gives

it a little bit more of a validity to me

that there's some truth to these

theories when you start getting the the

government documents in your hand.

Another intriguing fact is that the FBI

file on Leo Jabara which has been

Declassified the entire fire runs to

four hundred pages at which only 200

have been Declassified and many of the

documents contained within the withheld

material are classified for reasons

affecting national security than the

defense of the USA now it's one thing

for someone to be arrested and convicted

for scams and cons and things like this

but it's a big leap for someone to be a

con artist then to find that the FBI

considers them a threat to national

security and so this sort of begs the

question do the withheld documents

contain far more on the Aztek case that

has been published and put into the

public domain by the FBI.

I think the fact that those files are still

classified might be the result of two

quite different things one is that they

really were involved in some stuff and

had some information that for whatever

reason they agreed not to talk about but

the FBI pressured them and so forth

that's certainly a possibility

another is the general FBI attitude the

old J Edgar Hoover attitude about

keeping track of people and getting

files and you know having power over

them and I don't know which it was

Newton was sharp no question about that

whether he stumbled across some things

that he shouldn't have stumbled across I don't know.

A number of FBI documents

make it very clear that the FBI

and the Air Force at the time we're

following Newton and Jabbar very very

closely and we're literally listening on

their every word were going out to

conferences and lectures that both men

were speaking at and wanting to know

what the truth was behind the estate

case was it a genuine incidence or was

it simply a concoction of beasts two

enterprising con men.

It's possible there's something in there that would

would bear on this and give us some

answers and and maybe they would prefer

for reasons which may or may not be

legitimate to keep that quiet.

Certainly we can't say oh this is real because

these con men told this story but

because con men told the story about a

stack doesn't mean that there wasn't an

Aztec story to be told a genuine one a

legitimate one have to be real careful

about this guilt by association or

genuineness by association for that matter.

Con men government cover-ups conflicting

stories if there was a theme song for

the investigation of the UFO phenomenon

it might well be the Beatles the long

and winding road the Aztec case is the

perfect example of this both figuratively

and literally in the case of Hart Canyon Road

which leads to the alleged crash site.

In looking at the story one of the

things that's come under

scrutiny is the fact that the

skeptics on the Aztec incident claim

that the Hart Canyon Road did not exist

in 1848 we know it did now that would

have been the stagecoach road back in

the late 1800s on the way to Durango if

you go out to the crash site today

follow Hart Canyon on the old stagecoach

route you come up to what they call the

Arkansas loop or the Arkansas bend and

on top of that plateau is a rope cut

through allegedly by the military in

1948 to get the recovery equipment the

cranes and whatnot down in there to

retrieve the craft.

So this is the mystery bro this is gonna

tell me about the mystery road.

Well this road and unless it shows up on

recent maps has never shown up anywhere. -Right

This is the road the military or

whoever the recovery operation was

allegedly cut to get back here to

retrieve the craft. -okay

This was in March 48. -That's right.

And this road now must the roads around here

you were telling me it's oil roads and

stuff like that they're marked on the

maps the USGA maps is it usgs. -Yep right.

And this road wasn't marked on maybe

those maps until if it is marked all two Azzurri recently. -Right.

So we've got mystery road. -Yep.

And over here we've got

a mystery cement block concrete path now

let's go take a look at that then pretty good.

Tell me the story behind the mystery slab of concrete.

Well it really makes no sense

why it's even here it's on the

average nine and a half inches

thick did a core sample right at about a year ago.

What we're trying to establish

is how old the slab is? -Sure

Does that fit into the time frame of 1948

we've got rebar heavily fortified

nine and a half inches thick rebar all

through it

early skeptic said it was a well cap

we've rolled that out obviously if we

have drilled through it through the

concrete if there was high pressure

natural gas on there we mill it.

So that's what they say the skeptic said

well that for natural gas. -That's right.

And there is gas and oil around here all over

Yeah but not on a not on a masive

it's bedrock and you go a few feet under

the silt and hit bedrock. -Okay

The grouting is of local.

Welcome to the indigenous to the the area.

So they didn't truck it in they just kind.

Of they just use what was laying around here.

So if you come down the road you're

in a you know chop-chop you're in a

hurry cut a quick road something's

happening real quick.

You know you just pull what you can find. -That's right.

From the local area. -Okay.

Bring your Portland cement your forms and rebar and be don't.

Now what's it doing here though why if

if there was a crash site and all of

this you know what is this.

When they cut the road as you can see to this day it's

very salty they had trouble with one of

the crane arm supports on the leg of the

crane and the story goes I had to pour

this because the leg would just keep

going in to the sill which as you can

see around here is still a problem. -Sure.

I mean if you just you just walk over here and ...

Yep, take a look at it take a look the silt.

I wouldn't want to put a

crane on that. -Nope. All right so you got

a mystery road. -Yep. -Get a mystery slab

roads allegedly cut by the military to

come in here crane slabs allegedly put

here to support or the slabs allegedly

put here to support a crane, then, what's

the crane recovery? -Alleged lying disk.

Allegedly a flying disc, now where's the

flying disc? -All right. Well we don't know

where it is now but where was it back

then allegedly. About two 100 yards.

straight through well let's go take a look.

Works for me what's your footing

and I snakes around here. And at this time here.

The recovery group that was

sent out to Aztec was a hybrid recovery

that had been formed after the Roswell

incident because the Roswell incident

had been so badly botched with a news

release basically a lot of people to

base being aware of it the newspaper

running an article and after the Roswell

incident that this newly recovery group was formed.

This would have been a very

very elite group so they would never

have it another Roswell incident where

they had some young guys at a base even

though the final of ninth was a

top-notch base with top-notch people.

It was eight months later and if a Roswell

kind of got BOTS the news release the

press release and the old timer I'd

talked to that was in herre intelligence

so that we were dealing with a much more

mature crowd back then late 30s early

40s so they would never have the they'd never ...

Never have another Roswell. -Yes release

is going out young PR officers and that

sort of thing right this was one of the

best recoveries they had done to date.

I think yes Tech is certainly

part of the cover-up

I think after Roswell they got much

better at covering things up making sure

that they monitored flights of vehicles

that they would get there first

remembering that New Mexico is not

highly populated I mean today it's less

than maybe two million people in the

fifth largest state I think that the

government made it a strong policy they

set up mj-12 and they put the clamps on

and part of the keeping secrets is to

lie and misrepresent misdirect a

standard practice you know again New

Mexico when the first atom bomb was

exploded July 16th 1945 was seen from

100 miles away it was a pretty big bang

there were articles in the newspaper and

munition dump blows up nobody injured

fortunately I've got some of those articles

they got good at covering things up.

What we feel based on all the reports

this would be the epicenter the crash

site right here it was virtually intact. -Right.

Though was it a soft landing was

it a crash we don't know.

it's now there's a plaque over here

so this is a commemorative plaque of the

these alleged incident.

Recovery at Hart Canyon honor about this site on March

25th 1948 the spacecraft of origins

unknown crash landed on this Mesa.

The 767 anw radar base in nearby Alvaro New

Mexico tracked the errant landing to

this site high security recovery

operation took proximately two weeks

with all remains being taken to Los

Alamos New Mexico for scientific study

evaluation with some of the world's

leading scientists and Los Alamos is

what two hours from here? -Two and a half

about 127 miles of growth lives fair.

The recovery of this craft by the US

government military was one of the most

secretive recoveries of spacecraft with

origins unknown since the similar

recovery in Roswell New Mexico eight

months earlier.

Sadly all occupants as many as 16 died

as the result of this crash making full

disclosure of both purpose and or

origination all but impossible.

I was put here in 1999 -Three years after the

symposium started -When? You went oh right.

Yeah what 98 was the first year right so this is it.

Not much to look at but now

under really. -Who knows what happened

here lot of twisted dead trees lot of

broken off trees and a big open space

that about 35 feet wide under 10 feet more.

The only question is. -What craft.

You did anything crashing -Yeah all right

I love visiting New Mexico not just

because I'm interested in the UFO

phenomenon but because it's vast empty

spaces are so different so alien one

might say to my home

Halifax Nova Scotia a bustling

cosmopolitan seaport on Canada's East

Coast out here I sometimes feel that I'm

at the edge of the world and yet there

are similarities between New Mexico and

Nova Scotia friendly people for example

that might not be readily apparent but

which do exist these common elements are

also present in the Roswell and Aztec

UFO incidents no matter how much the

skeptics might tell you otherwise.

What's still comparison of Roswell and Aspen.

Roswell made the front page of many many

newspapers across the country we had an

intelligence officer who was given the

release to go ahead and release the

information to the press later

retracting it the next day as tech we

may have one newspaper article that made

it out that has conveniently disappeared

out of the archives you hear the

argument we don't have eyewitnesses at

Aztec well we didn't have eyewitnesses

four or five years ago we have

eyewitnesses now unfortunately some are deceased.

One key eyewitness that we had he's

deceased now was Doug Nolan.

Grew up in the Four Corners area at 19 years of age

worked for the El Paso oil company.

Was in his truck that day that over the radio

an old Motorola radio in the truck,

traveling with his boss Bill Ferguson.

They were called on the radio to get out

on her Canyon because of the brush fire.

The infamous brush fire we hear about.

Upon arriving at the crash site, they

were told by other workers that brush

fires on one side, they were worried about a drip tank.

At getting ignited in the brush fire.

Part arrival their other

oil field workers told them that it's

not the brush fire you got to see you

got to see what's laying up on the Mason

Doug went on to tell us all the locals

that were there the police the two

police officers that were there his boss

Bill Ferguson is probably deceased

although we were still looking for him.

I had the luxury of interviewing duck back

that October of 2003 he passed away

December 7th and that we have an

eyewitness we have a deathbed confession

Doug it had six strokes from June until

October was very slow and methodical and

recalling the incident and appeared to

be very credible in the interview.

In the late 90s early 2000 we were

contacted by a gentleman ken Farley from

batcave Arizona, and Ken want to talk to

us he was in very bad health Randy

Barnes and I had met down in Phoenix

rented a car drove up interviewed Ken

for probably three hours took very good notes.

Ken was a very ill on oxygen

his since passed away. Ken told his side

of the story that he was in Durango

passing through to San Diego fresh out

of the military met a friend and Cedar

Hill a drop-off point where he is to

pick him up and keep traveling to San

Diego his friend told him there was a

lot of commotion going on out on Hart

Canyon Road and they thought an aircraft

had gone down. Ken and his friend got to

the crash site and walked out to the

western side of where the disc was at

that point a group of people from Aztec

the oil field people two law enforcement

officers showed up who were already

actually at the scene and we found Ken's

story believable but we had a hard time

digesting the two police officers.

We figured today if you were out there

and you called 9-1-1 you'd be lucky to

get one in a reasonable timeframe not no

disrespect to the local law enforcement

but it's out the middle of nowhere and

the fact that there's two police

officers out there we had a little bit

of a problem we didn't write off his

interview we kind of parked it over in

the the holding pen until we got more

eyewitnesses then in 2003 we contacted

Doug Nolan who had contacted Bill

Steinman it was one of the leftover

leads bill never got to after the book

was published. Doug told an interesting

story which was very believable backed

up with names of other local residents

but about three-quarters the way through

the interview he mentions the other

police officer. And I stopped Doug and I

said what other police officer he said

well we had the local police officer and

then another gentleman young guy.

Well Doug was 19 at the time and said

that police officer was about his age

slightly older that police officer

didn't seem to enter mingle with the locals

so Doug went over and talked to him and

he said he was from the town of Cuba New

Mexico which is southeast of Nevada that

police officer claimed he had followed

the craft that light up what is now 5:50

the old highway 44 we dug into the

details as best Doug again was dying he

had had six stroke since past June Doug

also said he was going through who was

up to crash site that day you remember

all the two people because he didn't

know who they were and I asked him who

and he said two young guys maybe three

that stood at the western side crash

site at that point that tied in Ken

Farley story also backing up his claim

about the two police officers so he had

stories that were now starting to

connect with witnesses. And the winner of

2002 I was contacted by Glenn pace Glenn

pace was born and raised in the

Farmington area subsequently he was

interviewed extensively by Linda Moulton

Howe told a very interesting story as a

young man delivering papers a day or two

after the Aztek crash

back then the local paper was called the

hustler and since then as since then

it's now the Farmington Daily Times.

Glen recalls delivering papers with an

article on the cover of the hustler

referring to ranchers find disc on ranch

in our candy road, at that time that is

one of a few years of the hustler there

is no archived microfiche on.

Years later Glenn pace was working down at White

Sands Missile Range al White Sands

proving ground and worked with Otto

Krause it was a very well known

scientist of his day passed away the

early nineties and Otto Kraus asked him

where he was from it would go when said

the Farmington area

night after night of working out on the

Test range they got to know each other

pretty well and Otto said that he was

somehow involved in the Aztec UFO

recovery and doing research and looking

into Otto Krauss's background I believe

he would have been somebody you would

have included in that he was a very

brilliant man of his day.

Otto made reference to Glenn that the

Aztec recovery was one of the best ones

the military had done again using words

close to we didn't botch it like we did in Roswell.

March 27th of 1999 I was contacted

indirectly by Fred Reid he had

contacted the Daily Times and the Aztec

Public Library and sent a very nice

letter he had attended the 97 symposium

and I subsequently sat down on the phone

and talked to Fred for for quite a long

time and 1948 he worked for the OSS

predecessor to the CIA and Fred and his

crew was dispatched to the Aztec crash

site after the crash there is removed

matter of fact there was no discussion

of a UFO or a flying disc they were told

to go out do a final cleanup of the site

and to absolutely mapping survey with

great precision the entire area

yeah when talking to Fred I asked Fred

well what were your thoughts what do you

what did you think when you and your

crew got here he said actually we

thought a plane had crashed which would

make sense with all the air traffic over

the state of New Mexico military at that

time uh he described the Mesa fact then

having just been there a couple days

before looking back to 1948 that there

had been large equipment out there which

they were told to not really real an

skate but kind of retexture get rid of

all the heavy equipment tracks clean up

anything left behind k-ration pans what

which by the way later we did find some

18 inches down the soil.

Matt the entire area make sure cleanup

was well done nothing left behind and

move on which was not unusual for his

group in the OSS years later fred was

talking to some senior officers on what

happened out at Aztec and it was alluded

that it was a rather large flying disc

they never came out and said that it was

a gentleman he'd befriended that was

senior to him but interesting that's uh

They were actually set out to do a

cleanup and some of the interesting

things that Fred enlightened us with

we've always had a question of the

cut-in road the mystery road and the

concrete slab and Fred said in 1948 it

was quite evident that that was a

fresh-caught Road and the concrete slab

which again was used to aid a crane leg

support leg to get some object off the Mason.

Fred and I have made a date to sit

down and have lunch and go over his

service records and kind of go into the

story a little bit more and

unfortunately he died of a massive heart

attack about a month later he died March of that year.

I'm Sykes giving April that year.

A lot of skeptical people will will come up to

me and others and say things like well

you know do you really think that the

government or any government could hide

to something as monumental as aliens for

50 years you know you give them too much

credit they're not that good our

governments are not that smart they they

can't keep a secret you hear this all

the time I think that's that's utter nonsense.

I think to ask this question betrays a

real lack of understanding about how

secrecy operates for instance to answer

the question can can such a secret be

kept the true answer is yes and no it's

really both, it is yes first of all in

the sense that secrecy protocols within

the military in particular are extreme

penalties are extreme you sign away your

constitutional rights in many cases when you

you are exposed to very very sensitive

classified information and in many cases

this is binding for life so it's not

that easy to just to go talking about

what you've experienced but the answer

in a sense is no in the sense that leaks

do occur leaks have always occurred

regarding UFOs right from the late 40s

right on through to the present day

stuff gets out that is true however the

real issue is if you are trying to

manage this problem and you're trying to

control the UFO problem the real problem

becomes not to slam that lid down 100%

because that's that is impossible the

real issue it seems to me is to

neutralize or make useless information

that does come in how do you do that.

One of the good witnesses that we've

located who wishes to remain anonymous

there's a gentleman that I divulged you

and he was not at the crash site but

worked behind the scenes out of the

Roswell Army Airfield basically his job

was to review personnel records of the

up to 200 people that worked on the

recovery and to make sure that their

personnel files would not reflect that

they were at the crash site in other

words making sure that if years down the

road somebody made that claim that they

could show through their personnel files

that they were nowhere near the area

like the Jesse Marcel case if Roswell

this individual didn't find us we found

him apparently a lot of the UFO reports that

we're not going to blue book that we're

going to this airforce Intel we're going

to him and as luck would have it when we

found him he was still alive and was up

until a few months back.

The skeptics maintain that this is all hooey

that you could never keep a flying

saucer crash secret that someone weather

on the recovery team or a civilian

witness would talk about something as

big as Roswell or Aztec but would them

and if they tried who would really be listening.

One of the most intriguing

ones I investigated occurred in early

1964 and involved the recovery of a

small triangular-shaped object from a

Midlands forest and in this particular

case I tracked down various witnesses

who recalled seeing military cordons and

police cordons

turning people away from the area one

witness who stood out more than any

other literally stumbled upon the

recovery scene of this object which was

being loaded aboard a military transport

vehicle and he was treated quite roughly

by the military had his camera and film

confiscated and was warned not to talk

about this incident this was February

1964 and he spoke to me in September

1996 and when myself and a colleague

went to interview him he'd had this just

before we arrived he'd had this rather

bizarre and kind of threatening

telephone call from the Ministry of

Defense ordering at him as a civilian

not to talk to us about this particular

case and it did put him off speaking he

was quite frightened by it all and of

course we hear accounts like this very

often within the UFO subject and you

need to investigate each one on its own

merit what we did we through various

checks and things like this we were able

to determine that he had indeed received

a telephone call from the Ministry of

Defence one specific branch called the

Ministry of Defence guard service now

this man is now any 70s that he's a just

a retired washing machine repair living

on his own in a small apartment and

he gets a phone call from the Ministry

of Defense police at nine o'clock in the

morning warning him not to talk about an

incident that he was involved in 40

years previously unfortunately we were

able to verify the incoming details of

this telephone call to confirm that he

did receive it and so this kind of begs

the question what kind of incident could

be of paramount importance to the

British Ministry of Defence that 40

years after it occurred someone is still

keeping watch on the people who were

involved in the case

to the extent that they're being told

not to talk to civilian UFO researchers

and the fact that we arranged the

interview by telephone then that sort of

brings up all sort of other scenarios

about telephone monitoring operations to

keep this story under wraps and as

skeptical as I was when I first got into

the subject even for me now you know

I've had events and occurrences like

this happened so many times that you

know I believe there is a concerted

effort on the part of a covert

organization buried incredibly well

within within the intelligence community

to keep watch on the more sensitive and

sensational aspects I'll be UFO subject.

I think there really was a crash there I

think that Scot has gathered a lot of

witnesses I think we've got more to find

of course we're racing the Undertaker

and losing the race most of the time

several important witnesses have died

within the past year I personally think

that New Mexico would have been a prime

target for any alien visitors I mean I

make one assumption about all

civilizations out there as well as here

for that matter that they're concerned

about their own survival and security

that seems to be natural part of the

development of any advanced civilization

okay that being the case you have to

keep tabs on the primitives in the neighborhood

but only close tabs frequent visitations

detailed investigations when they show

signs of being able to bother you at the

end of World War two there were three

settings that soon these idiot

Earthlings as primitive societies major

activity is tribal warfare we will look

far to see that it's still that way you

don't need to look far for that would be

moving out some meaning a hundred years

which on a cosmic timescale is nothing

the three signs were clearly nuclear

weapons in measured radiation in the

atmosphere it's easy to find v2 rockets

which obviously weren't being used to

carry mail back and forth between

Germany and England and powerful

electronics radar systems in particular

which suddenly appeared on this planet

is to be AM radio who sticks around the

planet and now suddenly you've got radar

beams that go outside

we're obviously moving along with

development of electronic systems I

don't think it's any coincidence at all

that the only place on the planet where

you could check out all three of these

technologies in 1947 and 48 was

southeastern New Mexico that's where the

first atom bomb was tested Trinity site

Alamogordo or Muirfield White Sands

proving ground if you want to call it

that uh the v2 rockets were all being

tested there that we've captured from

the Germans and we were modifying some

to go up much higher and things like

that and that's where we had our best

radar to track the Rockets which

sometimes went south instead of north

even though they were supposed to go

north but I would be flabbergasted if

aliens weren't checking out the place.

So New Mexico would have been a natural

place for aliens to visit but Roswell

and Aztec remain controversial at best

is there a related UFO incident that

even the skeptics can accept as real as

it happens there is and it occurred just

a few miles from Aztec in Farmington New Mexico.

The Farmington Armada case is

a classic in ufology in in March of 1950

a large number of people in Farmington

New Mexico which at that time was a lot

smaller than it is now I mean

dramatically smaller I think now it's

about 30,000 we're dealing in those days

with maybe 3,000 people if that in any

case they what they saw were literally

hundreds of objects circling in the sky

and zooming back and forth in formation

and most people describing them as being

shaped like dinner plates classic flying

saucers including one that was bright

red all the others were silvery and the

bright red one red one is interesting

particularly because as it led a group

of these saucers away from Farmington

into the off to the southeast roughly

almost actually more Dewey's but just to

the south of that a few minutes later

before any of this could hit the news

wires or be on the radio anywhere in Las

Vegas New Mexico a group of of postal

workers were outside taking a break or

something looked up and saw a group of

saucers whizzing over and one of them

was bright red I think these people were

actually did see indeed you know who

knows was this a rendezvous point were

they all dropping down from the

mothership and then heading out to the

four points of the compass or what they

were doing I don't know but I think they

really did see something quite real.

The Farmington Armada which involved lots of

people seeing lots of stuff up there

lots of vehicles if you will half the

town I guess saw these things uh dr.

James Ian McDonald did a detailed

investigation found loads of people

who'd seen things maybe that was the

gathering place I don't know Four

Corners area there who knows why they

were there I mean who knows why people

picnic in a certain area you know I

don't know and it may be a staging area

okay you guys check out them if their

weapon sites over there and remember

pretty soon we were building nuclear

weapon testing nuclear weapons in Nevada

which is the other way from Farmington

toward Roswell in the other direction

uh they had a great gathering laying out

their their plans for further reconnaissane.

And it was taken seriously by

the Farmington Daily Times

as you can see by this headline which

ran on Saturday March 18th of 1950 huge

saucer Armada jolts Farmington there

were several witnesses to the event and

Lincoln O Brien the publisher of the

paper actually sent a telegram by

Western Union to Ken Purdy of the true

magazine whole city Farmington New

Mexico where we own daily sees large

forest wine saucers air mailing you full

reports story terrific not fully

developed if you want to send man to

Farmington we will assist him in every way.

So it was taken seriously at that

time and I think that that was probably

because there had been so many

connections to UFOs in the late 1940s

and early 1950s and there are some

people who believe that this saucer

Armada was actually connected to the

crash at Roswell and at Aztec we had the

crash at Roswell in 47 the crash in

aztec in 48 and then the flyover in 1950

and several people believe that the

saucers flew over in formation as a

salute to their fallen comrades because

it did happen in march the same month

that the aztec crash was reported to

have happened.

So crash I hear Cartman up there saucers

came in which direction Elizabeth story

says from that direction

over field block oh right through this tree

line right there all the trees were damaged

dangerous trailer.

So there it is the Aztec UFO incident

the first of the crashed flying saucer

tales but is it a fraud perpetrated by a

couple of clever con men on an unwitting

journalist or is it part of the greatest

of all government conspiracies the truth

as so often seems to be the case in the

UFO field remains a mystery it is up to

you to judge the evidence

I'll give the final word however to

Scott Ramsey the man most responsible

for bringing that evidence to light once again.

In concluding with the Aztec

incident you have to look at I think we

certainly have look at the original

story look at what the skeptics have to

say take the original information that

Skelly published in 1950 at which we've

done and then digested from there and I

think we've proved beyond a shadow of a

doubt that somebody with incredibly good

insider information was telling Frank

Scalia's story and we've got a lot more

research to do on the Aztec incident

there's no doubt if our research shows

that Aztec was a tall story that got out

of control we'll be the first ones that

come forward and say that, but until then

it's an open case it's an open mystery

and we're gonna keep going on.