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[upbeat music]

Please welcome our panel of Power Dykes.

Frances Stevens, publisher and editor-in-chief

of "Deneuve," the hottest lesbian magazine.

REPORTER: "Deneuve," the leading lesbian magazine....

-There wasn't a glossy magazine for lesbians. Anywhere!

-She decided one day I'm gonna make one.

That's total rock-n-roll.

I love my job! [kiss, laughter]

I love my job. I love my job.

-There hadn't been a lesbian lifestyle magazine before.

-"Deneuve" gave the community the gift of connection in a time

when it wasn't okay to be a lesbian.

-We were excited because it was like

all the other magazines,

which in 1990, that did not happen.

-This magazine was really gonna change things.

-I know lesbians, including myself,

who collected every issue.

-One of the principles of social change for lesbians

has been visibility.

-Lesbian visibility is absolutely essential

if we want anyone coming of age now to think

that there's a culture worth joining.

-I definitely would go to the bookstore

and read "Curve" magazine.

-Whoever was in "Curve", that was it.

That's how you knew what was going on.

-Like the latest musicians, the latest artists.

-Yep!

-Franco just explodes on the scene with pride

and with elegance and honesty.

-Just to bring a magazine to the newsstands so that lesbians

could see a little bit of themselves reflected

on the pages required a lot of courage and tremendous grit,

and no doubt, significant sacrifice.

[wheels rolling lightly along sidewalk]

[buzz of scooter motor, dog's tags clinking]

[car door opens]

-Can I take your tea? -Oh, thank you.

Up, up.

Whoo! Your paws are wet.

[engine rumbles]

-Oh, right on the dress.

Okay.

What's going on?

-I got this email from Silke.

She wants to talk.

Doesn't sound good.

-Are you all right? -Yeah.

-Okay.

Can I have a kiss?

Can I have a better one?

Thank you. -Of course.

[many conversations throughout the lobby]

[gentle guitar music]

It's really cool seeing this dichotomy of really,

like, those people in the lobby.

Was that a mother and her child?

Or was that just an older woman [laughing] and a teenager?

-I don't know.

I don't know, but I like that you used the word "dichotomy."

-Ahh!!! [laughs]

[video call rings]

-Can you hear me?

-I can hear you, but I can't see you.

-Oh. -Oh!

Now I can see you.

Now you're jumping all over the place.

So, what's been going on over there?

Your email was a little alarming.

-Well, the one that said, "I don't know if we'll

be in business in a year." I guess that one.

-What do you need me to do?

What can I do to be helpful?

-Mmhmm.

-You know, something has to...

has to shift in order

for "Curve" to keep going in whatever format that is.

-Yes.

-I think she's lost.

-Mm.

Yeah. And who am I

to point fingers for things that I believe are

not the right decision that she's made along the way?

-Are you kidding me?!

Who are you?!

-I lost the right to criticize.

Are you biting your lip? -A little bit.

[quiet laugh] Yeah, I don't, I don't....

You know, it's like, in the last 24 hours, I heard this thing

that I never wanted to hear that the magazine

could be coming to an end.

Should it come to an end?

Or should it change into something else?

-Right. -So, what does it become?

I don't know. I really don't.

-So, then I guess the big question is, do you wanna be

part of figuring out what it is?

[pensive music]

GERALDO: Hi, everybody, and welcome to a show

that's all about power dykes. [applause]

They are here, and they are queer.

Frances Stevens, at 26 years old, how long have you been

a self-described lesbian?

-A self-described lesbian.

I was actually married for three and a half years.

-Ah, I didn't know.

And may the great spirit watch over you, amen.

[applause]

FRANCO: It was a really expensive, elaborate,

beautiful, amazing day.

I was living the fairy tale.

Here was this great guy.

Everything was great with my family.

And I had no idea that I was gay.

[pensive music fades into "Jesse's Girl"]

I didn't know any out gay people when I was growing up.

There was one character on a TV show that was a gay guy.

I went to school at San Francisco State University.

There was one prerequisite called

Variations in Human Sexuality.

It's like as if somebody hit me over the head

with a baseball bat.

Like they explained what being a lesbian was.

I just knew, all of a sudden, that that was me.

It was like somebody just said, "Wake up!"

♪ Why can't I find a woman like that? ♪

Wait a second.

The fairy tale has just been blown up.

What do I do?

[somber music]

I think we should do away with gays if possible.

You can't hold hands in public.

You can't be affectionate in public.

It's a hard road.

We have got nothing behind us legally.

-I was shell-shocked to work the phone lines

at the National Center for Lesbian Rights

and to take call after call

from lesbians, and also gay men, who

had been kicked out of their families,

lost custody of their kids,

been fired from their jobs,

been stripped of a sense of hope and future.

I could not believe how devoid of just the most basic sense

of belonging and dignity existed for LGBT people in this country.

You had Don't Ask Don't Tell.

REPORTER: Gays could reveal their status

only at their own risk.

Being homosexual is still grounds for dismissal.

-We need to protect our social and moral foundations.

KATE: You had Bill Clinton

signing The Defense of Marriage Act.

REPORTER: States are not obliged to recognize

the legal gay marriage of another state.

KATE: You did not have openly gay, queer elected officials.

You did not have celebrities who were out and proud.

We did not see ourselves represented

in any positive mainstream way.

-I love you! -Come on.

-Cindy, what's wrong with you? -What do you mean?

-All this touching and hugging girls and, "I love you."

Boy, are you strange. -Well, I didn't mean anything.

-I'll just bet.

You better think about what you mean. [tsk]

JEN: Frank, what if this magazine

goes out of business in the next year?

FRANCO: It's very likely that it could.

-And? -And will people care?

I don't know what other people think, you know?

The magazine was a way, it was a vehicle for lesbians to disperse

information to other lesbians. Now, anyone can do a blog.

Anyone can have their own YouTube channel.

It's much more immediate.

It gives way more access to the people.

I think the year I started the magazine there were

over 700 magazines founded that year.

I remember hearing a statistic that there were like

6 or 7 of those left.

30 years! That's a long time, you know?

-I guess we'll see what people think tomorrow.

[high energy music]

[happy crowds cheering]

-Is anybody gonna come to our panel?

-[laughs] -Maybe no one will come.

-Hey! -Hey!!

-Hey, Andrea. Nice to meet you.

-Yeah, nice to meet you too.

We thought we would start just with a quick introduction.

Franco Stevens, who's the woman who started "Curve" Magazine,

which is the longest-running, best-selling

lesbian magazine in the world.

[room fills with applause, cheers]

When I started the magazine, it was a big controversy:

Do I put the word "lesbian" on the cover?

And women were like, "You can't do that.

No bookstores will carry it.

I can't be seen buying this thing."

I mean, I can't even verbalize today how much I was ridiculed

and bashed, even from within our own community, by putting

the word "lesbian" on the cover.

And I just wanna know by a show of hands, how many of you are

still embracing of that or okay if people identify as lesbian?

Can you raise your hand?

That's way more than I thought.

How many of you think it's outdated

and doesn't represent our community?

A couple people. Thank you for being honest.

It's made a difference. It's made an impact.

Why do we wanna erase it from our history?

-I, personally, would never use it to describe myself because

I feel like it's been co-opted by straight men

as this overly sexualized term.

FRANCO: We've heard from multiple women of a certain age

[laughter] who are feeling like they're becoming invisible,

like they're being cast aside.

-I use either lesbian or queer interchangeably.

But a lot of folks in Gen Z are actually more likely to identify

as queer or pan or bi.

And there's nothing wrong with that, but again, it's this idea,

is the word exclusionary?

SEVERAL: Yes. Yeah.

-Some lesbians spaces can be super inclusive, but there is

also a history of lesbians not being so inclusive.

-Yeah. -I identify as a trans woman.

And I'm not super comfortable with the word "lesbian,"

but I do feel safe using "queer" because I feel like

it is a broader term.

It is sort of a, I know that queer spaces are safe spaces.

FRANCO: I can totally understand that.

You know, a lot of old-school lesbians are trans exclusionary

radical feminists. We call them TERFS.

-I think "lesbian" is an important word 'cause

it describes exactly who you are.

But inside the group, there's a really hot and heavy

discussion about it.

-The only word that anybody seems to globally have

an issue with is the one word that women can own

for themselves that is about women.

-Exactly.

-I totally understand that the word "lesbian" can feel

exclusionary to a woman who loves women

who doesn't identify as a lesbian.

But that's the one word that we have that is only ours

and nobody else's.

ANDREA: So, I actually just came out to my abuela in December.

And I was like, "Abuela, soy lesbiana."

And she's just like... "¿!¡En serio!?"

[laughter]

And that was it. She's just like, "Really!"

I was like, "Oh, you know."

Like, "I knew that there was no guy ever good enough for you,

but now it all makes sense." I was like....

[laughter, applause]

I was so shocked.

And the worst comment she said was like,

"But vaginas are so much work." And I was just like....

[boisterous laughter]

Like, I somehow ended up here in this conversation.

By being visibly queer and being visibly Latinx, I can hopefully

make it easier for younger folks in my family

and other folks in my community.

Regardless of whatever word you choose or what label you want to

attribute to yourself, literally being visible

is the most important thing you can be.

[applause]

ANDREA: You know what's funny?

I didn't pick up a "Curve" magazine till I was in college.

And I literally picked it up when I was in a journalism class

my freshman year. I was like, what is this?

And I just got so excited because, as it is, I was just so

excited to see a magazine about women that wasn't sexualized.

You know, going and hearing all these women say, "I'm too scared

to use the word 'lesbian'," or "I don't use the word 'lesbian'

because...I don't feel safe doing it," makes me think that,

God, there's so much more work to be done.

-The reason why "lesbian" gets so much heat, I think

is many things. I think it's because it is seen

as being political, women owning their identity.

Like that one person said, it's the one label that's ours.

-Mm.

-But I do think also it's because of that loud minority

that has that reputation of being exclusionary.

FRANCO: I made the magazine to say however you choose to

present yourself, you're still a part of this community.

But a magazine has a limited distribution.

Like there's other ways for lesbians to connect

besides a print magazine.

We can never be too visible, right?

And that's because they've wanted us to be invisible

for so long that any type of visibility is radical.

It's political.

[somber music]

[tv static]

Hilton head, South Carolina. Step this way, please.

-You know what...?

-We drove to beach week. We rented a house.

Blaine came storming into the living room.

He was screaming...

"My wife is a dyke."

Like it stung his tongue to even say it.

[gulls calling, somber music continues]

FRANCO: When my husband outed me to my family,

I felt like it was my story to tell.

That was my decision to tell my family when I was ready.

Ugh.

He had just kind of blown up my world,

which meant that I never had to do it.

But it was kind of something that was taken away from me.

ROBIN: I don't think Frank lied intentionally.

I think she needed to come to terms with it herself.

But not telling my parents when she did figure it out,

that was hard.

If you felt this way, you should not have gotten married.

[echoing voices from the recording]

[family singing "Dayenu," Passover song]

-I think it was like a shocking thing,

like this is something that they did wrong.

You know, nobody wanted to have the gay kid.

FRANCO: I grabbed my car keys, and I walked out.

And that was it. That was the end.

I just took what was on my back and left.

So, I didn't have anywhere to go.

And I lived in my car.

And it was humiliating for me, and I didn't want

anyone to know. It was bad.

After about a month, I called the house.

And my mom picked up, and I said,

"I know that this isn't what you want for me.

Can you please lend me $500 so I can get a place to live?"

NANNY: I said, "You made your bed. I'm sorry.

I've spent all the money on you I can do.

Do what you have to do to make your own way,

but I cannot support you."

I felt like I was completely alone.

[pensive music]

The victim of what many people say was a hate crime

in Wyoming this morning has died.

REPORTER: Shepard, a gay man, was allegedly beaten,

left to die.

-It was very hard to be out and open in the late '80s.

There was a history of gay bashing.

-It was nothing to walk down the street

and have somebody smack you or hit you.

Once, I had a guy spit in my face.

-We are ostracized by society.

They call you "dyke." They spit on you.

They think that you're, they think that you're fat,

and they think that you're ugly.

And that's because that's the image

that's been projected about us.

KATE: These two women hiking The Appalachian Trail,

a man identified them as a lesbian couple.

He ended up murdering one of the women

while they slept in their tent.

It's a stone's throw, in terms of history,

away from where we sit right now.

[birdsong, dogs in the distance]

FRANCO: I still really want "Curve" in whatever form

to continue, you know, if it's still needed.

I think what I need to do is find some young activists,

find young people, people who are like what I was like

at 25 and 30.

Who are they? What are their goals?

What are they bringing to the community?

What do they need? What does the community need?

And then maybe, if we talk to some of them, we can get an idea

of what the mission of the magazine,

or the mission of this project, should be.

This is a poem called "Dear Straight People"

by Denice Frohman.

Apparently, it won the World Poetry Slam.

Dear Straight People, [audience chuckles]

Who do you think you are?

Do you have to make it so obvious that

I make you uncomfortable? Why do I make you uncomfortable?

Do you know that makes me uncomfortable?

Now we both uncomfortable. [laughter]

Dear Straight People, Sexuality and gender?

Two different things [cheers, finger snaps]

combined in many different ways.

If you mismatch your socks, you understand.

Dear Straight People, Kissing my girlfriend in public without

looking to see who's around is a luxury I do not fully have yet.

But tonight, I am drunk in my freedom, grab her hand on

the busiest street corner in Philadelphia, zip my fingers

into hers and press our lips firmly, until we melt

their stares into a standing ovation, imagine

that we are in a sea of smiling faces, even when we're not

and when we're not, we start shoveling, digging deep into

each other's eyes we say, "Hey Baby, can't nothing

stop this tonight" 'cause tonight, this world is broken

and we're the only thing that's gonna keep it together.

[cheers, applause] JEN: Damn.

FRANCO: Yeah, pretty powerful huh?

-Just the significance of the magazine for so many years

has meant a lot to a lot of queer folks,

a lot of LGBT folks.

It meant a lot to me.

It was the first magazine that I saw as a young kid walking

around New York City, and I was like, "What's that?"

And seeing women on the cover.

And I'm like, became a lot more curious about

sorta just the community.

It was a way for us to connect to each other.

And so, it's important for young people to know that

this magazine's a part of their lineage, too.

FRANCO: You know, the first time that I saw you, I just remember

feeling that total feel of power.

Like, "Wow! This person is speaking to me."

And then I imagined what would it be like if I was 20,

and I was hearing you go get it.

I was just so blown away that I was like, "This is where

I hope our community's going."

-Young people were sort of messaging me from all over

the world saying, "I found this poem, and I came out to my mom."

Or you know, "I came out to myself."

One of the reasons I'm drawn to work with young people

is because I believe in their wisdom.

Poetry is a way to fall in love with the power of your voice.

-Why do my parents despise so much?

Why couldn't I be the "daughter" they wanted.

Why can't you be like your cousin?

Why can't you be like most "normal" girls?

I'm sorry I like girls.

They saw it as a sickness that was able to be cured.

The guilt is unbearable.

[sniffs back tears]

[snapping in support]

DENICE: There are students on this campus who may not even

know that they're queer or questioning yet, but maybe 5,

10 years from now will look back and see how

courageous and visible you're living your truth

and will be inspired to do the same.

What I'm saying is that your impact extends beyond this room.

-What does queer love look like to you?

DENICE: Unapologetic. Radical. Liberated.

[snapping]

It looks like a harbor. It looks like a heaven.

I love the word "queer" because I feel like it encompasses

both my sexuality and my gender presentation, right?

My queerness is what my womanhood looks like on me

as much as it is who I'm with.

And it's really the ultimate risk but also the ultimate and

greatest joy and the most radical love I've ever known.

That's what queer love is to me.

[snapping fills the room]

FRANCO: When I left my marriage, it was scary.

But at least I was free.

Where I really wanted to work was A Different Light Bookstore.

This was the gay bookstore in the gayest street in America.

I went in, and I had a conversation with

the one female employee there named Rachel Pepper.

RACHEL: I just liked Franco right away.

I felt I need to help this person get hired.

I wanna be this person's friend.

FRANCO: Everyone that worked there was an artist or a writer

and the most creative people that I'd ever met.

One of my friends from school, he asked me,

"So, where you living?"

And when I admitted that I didn't have a place to live,

they said, "Come live with us. We won't charge you any rent."

And they gave me this tiny little bedroom.

But I was so happy to have this place that I could be myself in.

One night, I went out to a club, and I met

my first official girlfriend, Vicki.

VICKI: When I met Franco, I thought she looked a lot

like Demi Moore.

She had makeup and nails and the hair.

And I was just like, wow, you know? Yeah.

So, we started going to Rolo and all these little stores

and shopping together.

And then gradually, I noticed she was like kinda changing.

I just noticed her discovering who she was.

She said to me, "If you wanna stay with me,

you have to wear the dress."

FRANCO: I was like, "Can you please put on a dress for me?"

And she's like "No!"

I was like, oh no, I think I like femme girls.

And then I got kind of upset that they weren't treated

like real lesbians in the lesbian community.

You had to look the part.

You needed Doc Martins on your feet, and you needed

short haircut and no makeup.

You had to be able to identify each other by that.

I think that's just wrong.

-So, what is an average lesbian? -There is no average lesbian.

We've always been in every segment.

We're doctors, lawyers, engineers,

sanitation engineers too.

If you look around, how many of you could decipher

who was lesbian and who was not?

If you looked at this panel walking out on the street,

what would you think? Average lesbian?

-Of course. Of course. [laughter]

FRANCO: Average lesbian? Average lesbian?

Our whole life does not revolve around sex

and who we sleep with. [applause]

RACHEL: We wanted to see representation of our diversity

in the pages of a magazine.

We wanted fashion. We wanted lifestyle.

We wanted to talk about books and music that were not

on the mainstream lesbian grid at the moment.

-There were gay magazines.

There just weren't the right ones.

FRANCO: Okay, come on. Let's take some selfies.

ANDREA: Okay, we're taking some selfies.

-Am I a bar stool?

Put your arm around me or something.

-Well, I mean, it's a little tall.

-Here, no, here. -Okay, there.

Yeah, I guess I'll lean then. Bar stool. You get it?

-[laughs] I turn into everyone's coat rack.

What am I, a coat rack?

-I don't think you're a coat rack!

-So, right down here is the bookstore

that I used to work at.

It used to be called A Different Light.

When I used to work here, mostly at the time it was

gay men's porn.

"The Advocate" didn't say "lesbian" on the front cover.

It only said, "gay." "Out" showed up shortly after.

"On Our Backs" was there: full nudity,

in-your-face lesbian erotica.

KATIE: There was nothing for the general lesbian population.

FRANCO: One day, it hit me: if you want something

you need to take action and do something.

I was the one that was supposed to start this magazine.

-So, she got the idea.

And then she's just like, ooh, my God.

I need money.

FRANCO: So, I dressed up in my little suit, and I went to the

bank with my business plan and my little pleather briefcase.

I don't think they wanted anything to do with me.

We were shot down so hard.

"What are you thinking? You know you're gonna fail."

First of all, the economy's tanking.

Second of all, the magazine industry's in the toilet.

Magazines are flailing left and right, and you wanna put

the word "lesbian" on the front cover.

Good luck to ya.

JEN: I wasn't out in the '90s.

Why was it a big deal to put the word "lesbian" on the cover?

-It was essentially coming out every time you wanted

to look at the magazine. It was a big deal back then.

You're reading this, you're guilty by association.

Well, that was everybody's perception

that nobody would buy it.

So, I just applied for a bunch of credit cards on the same day.

I just cashed them all in.

ANNOUNCER: Here they come....

FRANCO: I had been homeless, I'd lived in my car, I'd been broke.

So what if I didn't have any credit after this?

So what if I declared bankruptcy?

Everyone said along the way that I couldn't do it.

Well, the more you told me no, the more I wanted it to happen.

I picked the first race, clear favorite.

I went down to the paddock, and I noticed when the jockey is

getting on the horse, he keeps looking back, looking back.

There's something wrong with this horse.

So, it was like oh, that horse is out. All right.

I'm gonna bet an exacta with two longshots,

and my horses came in first and second.

[hooves thundering on the track]

I took all the money, and I did the same thing: just taking

that money and parlaying it into the next race.

I knew I had to risk everything.

And I just remember thinking okay,

if this is supposed to happen, it will.

And I'll tell ya, it was like I was standing at the finish line

in every race, as if somebody had just told me

these are gonna be the winners of these races.

At the end of the day, I had enough money

to start the magazine and print three editions worth.

So, I was at Different Light at the time, and I hand wrote

a sign that just said "Looking for lesbian writers

and photographers for new lesbian magazine."

And I put the sign up, and I got 300 calls the first month.

So, at that point, I knew that there was a need and a want.

RACHEL: There was a lot of interest in getting this

new lesbian publication off the ground.

KATIE: I called, and I said, "I'm interested in the magazine

that you were talking about."

And she goes, "Well, do you want to be an editor."

And I thought well, that was an easy interview!

DEB: Franco got this huge tray with just so much sushi.

And she said, "If you can eat more sushi than me,

you'll get the job." That was.... [laughs]

And I remember thinking oh, I can do that.

FRANCO: Do you know what the difference is between

parsley and pussy? DEB: What, Franco?

FRANCO: I don't know.

I don't eat parsley. [clicks tongue]

Back to you, Deb.

KATIE: I think she was 23.

So, to see somebody that was grasping these opportunities

and just going for it was really inspiring.

FRANCO: Oh, the name of the magazine.

[clears throat] I've been told never to talk about that.

The name Deneuve was Franco's first cat.

Franco had a girlfriend whose cat was named Deneuve.

Long-haired American fluffy cat, tabby. Deneuve.

What!? [laughs]

She once told me that it sounded like it meant, "the new thing."

I think we all felt it had a little bit of a je ne sais quoi.

I knew immediately that it was

homage to Catherine Deneuve.

"The Hunger" was one of my favorite movies.

Franco named the magazine after her camp counselor.

KATIE: She told me, "There was a girl that I met at summer camp

that I fell madly in love with."

Franco's first girlfriend, her name was Deneuve.

How sweet is that?

For the record, my first girlfriend was not a cat.

[machines whirring]

[chill pop music]

From the get-go, I knew exactly

what I wanted the magazine to be like.

I wanted it to be color and glossy.

I wanted it to be a resource for women in the community,

and I wanted it to be a place where we could

feel proud to represent all of us.

This is our life. This is our style.

Yes, this is our news and our politics,

but this is where we are,

and this is how we're gonna push ourselves forward.

DEB: What I was really interested in was making sure

everybody looked gorgeous.

'Cause I think at that time, a lot of people didn't really

feel good about themselves.

Put down by society. Really rough time with families.

It was really a place where we looked positive,

we looked great, we looked sexy.

♪ Still, there's many who turned out their porch lights

♪ Just so I would think they were not home

♪ And hid in the dark of the windows

♪ Till I passed.... ♪

It says on the very first issue, "lesbian," a lesbian magazine.

You know, just being in this magazine

was like taking a big chance.

I mean, there's nothing more out loud and proud than

being in a magazine with the L word on the cover.

I can tell you there was two paid ads;

one from A Different Light Bookstore, which was tiny,

and then one from my dad's computer business,

which was his latest entrepreneurial venture.

[pensive music]

My relationship with my mom at the point of just starting

the magazine was on the mend.

ROBIN: My mother knew she didn't react well.

FRANCO: One time for Thanksgiving, she called up

and said, "I'd really like you to come home for Thanksgiving."

And without missing a beat, I just said,

"Okay, we will be there.

I will be coming with my girlfriend," which was Vicki.

I didn't give her a chance to say anything else.

ROBIN: The first time I heard my mother use the word,

"my daughter's a lesbian," was in relation to the magazine.

Somebody was asking what everybody was up to.

And my mother said, "Oh, and Frank started this magazine."

"Really? What kind of magazine?"

"Well, it's a lesbian magazine." And that was just it.

NANNY: Frances said, "Mom, I know what I want,

and I'm gonna do it."

And I said, "Hurray. Let's start over."

[birds singing]

FRANCO: I don't know if you remember Kim Katrin Milan.

Her TED Talk went viral.

Yeah, she has an amazing family.

So, take a look at this.

TIQ: I am a transgender man, which means

the "F" on my birth certificate should've stood for

false instead of female. [laughter]

KIM: I am a cisgender queer woman.

Cisgender means the gender I was assigned at birth is still

and has always been female.

I've identified in a few different ways - as a bisexual,

as a lesbian - but for me, queerness encompasses

all of the layers of who I am and how I've loved.

I'm layers and not fractions.

FRANCO: What are they saying that's bringing so many viewers?

What is the message of today? What are people hungry for?

When I created the magazine, it was for women who love women.

So, what does that mean today?

JEN: Who identifies as a woman might have shifted.

FRANCO: Yeah. Mmhmm.

-But it's the same thing.

-And who identifies as a man now.

-Right.

-So, I think it's looking at the community

a really different way.

[chill music]

KIM: I'd been speaking since 2009, trying to involve people

in having a broader dialogue about what it means

to support LGBT people.

-You know, having a speaker like you come in

could just change everything. -Yeah.

-They picture queer people as one specific way.

What I wanted to do with the magazine too is kinda

break that mold and say that people don't have to

be a certain way to be accepted within the community.

KIM: I think that that conversation is still something

that's so important to keep having.

I think everything ends up having to evolve.

-People will make fun of the extension of LGBTQI2s,

but the way that exists is actually a really accurate

reflection of the work we're trying to do.

-Totally, totally. And what we're seeing now

with this desire for people

to name themselves, is really that,

is a reclaiming of this power that we've never had access to.

-It's self-empowering to take those words back.

-And I think in the naming is you find your tribe.

You find your community.

[mellow music]

FRANCO: I knew the owner of the largest lesbian romance novel

publishing company, Naiad Press.

Barbara Grier, the publisher, said to me, "Oh my God.

You're the cutest little baby dyke I've ever seen!"

-[laughs] -"Print this flyer.

It will cost you $600, and I will send it out

to all my people on my entire mailing list.

And I'll even put a quote from me in there saying that

this is the greatest thing to happen to lesbian culture.

I support it. You need to buy a subscription."

So, I was like, $600? We didn't have 600 cents.

VICKI: We were putting our heads together

'cause this was so important to us.

So, there used to be motorcycle parking down there

at the corner of 18th and Castro Street,

and there'd be tons of people

that'd come and would park their motorcycles there.

We can go down there and start detailing motorcycles.

VICKI: [laughing] I do not want to wash motorcycles.

And she was like "C'mon!"

I would be like, "Hey, nice bike.

But really, your bike is pretty dirty.

Look at mine! It's immaculate.

You go into that bar, give me 20 bucks.

By the time you get out, your bike will look as good as mine."

We had like little toothbrushes.

By the end of the day, we were so exhausted.

FRANCO: I was surprised she didn't break up with me

just right then and there.

After a weekend, we were high on those fumes from

the de-greaser, but we had gotten the money.

So, Naiad Press sent out the mailer.

And after about two weeks, I opened up the mailbox,

and there were like two subscriptions.

I was like two subscriptions, YES!

The next day there was like 12 subscriptions.

I was like wow, this is awesome.

And I come in the next day.

I open that little box, and I look in. Empty.

And I'm like, I guess that's it 'cause this is the third issue.

So, as I'm walking out the door with my head kind of slung like

let's see, how old will I be after my bankruptcy's cleared

from my record, the guy behind the desk said, "Oh, wait.

Frank, Franco, wait a second!" And I said, "Yeah?"

He goes, "Oh, your mail would not

fit in the P.O. box. There was too much of it."

So, he plunked down this sack of subscriptions.

It was like Santa's gift bag. I couldn't believe it.

For the next few weeks, it continued at that rate.

Like either there was a tub, one of those mail tubs,

or a sack of thousands of subscriptions.

It was like... God was a lesbian. [laughs]

[upbeat music]

VICKI: So many women were interested in the magazine.

And I mean, it was just flooding in.

We were in the apartment, typing in the addresses,

stuffing these magazines into manila envelopes.

And I'm like, I'm thinking to myself,

what day and age are we living in?

Why does this have to be in a manila envelope and mailed out?

And it's like well, it's going to the Midwest

to people that probably aren't out.

So, this is where I lived when I first started the magazine.

But when women called here, they thought they were reaching some

big-ass publication, where it was a couple of dykes

sitting up in that room all smooshed together and like -

ANDREA: You were all the departments.

FRANCO: I was all the departments.

We did so many photo shoots in the back.

Sometimes they'd call and be like, "Oh, yeah,

I have a question about my subscription."

They were really looking for community.

Calling us up and hearing another voice of somebody

who is actually an out lesbian was so moving for them.

Sometimes they'd end up keeping somebody on the phone

here at the office for an hour or two.

It wasn't uncommon.

Brings back a lot of memories.

[mellow music]

RACHEL: How are you going to publicize this magazine

at a time when women really didn't have access

to a lot of media to get their voices heard?

And there was no Internet to publicize it.

Franco was great about hitting the road

at every opportunity possible.

She would go to every Pride event all around the country

to set up a booth and sell subscriptions.

It's the night before the tour, and I'm just getting ready.

And our first stop is Winnemucca, Nevada,

until we can make it to Salt Lake City the next day.

We're doing Chicago on Friday,

the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival on Sunday.

Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Columbus, Indianapolis,

St. Louis, Kansas City, Denver, and then back home.

I just don't know where we're gonna fit 47 boxes

that we're gonna get in Chicago in the car.

Magazines, magazines.

We're going to Michigan.

We're gonna see us some naked ladies. Buh-bye!

FRANCO: And that was our whole idea of going on these tours,

is like drive 600 miles.

DEB: Have you had okra?

I didn't know what okra was until tonight.

FRANCO: Show up at the bookstore for cocktails and snacks.

They have "Deneuve" magazine beautifully displayed.

FRANCO: Followed by five minutes for dinner and going

to a dance club until 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning.

We're on our way to Atlanta.

Every place we go, they ask who the three triplets are,

since we're obviously the only lesbians they've ever seen.

Or so they think.

And we all have exactly the same haircut.

And we'd just cover as much ground as we could.

RACHEL: When we rolled up, people would just be ecstatic

to see us, and particularly to see Franco.

Actually, one beautiful woman standing right in front of me.

[laughs]

Can I turn this off now, Franco, please?

-I love my job. [kiss, laughter]

I love my job. I love my job.

More babes in the community tent.

-The big boss is just working so hard! [chuckles]

Oh yeah, just peeling the babes off her carcass.

The women of the South really have loved the magazine.

-And we just wanna say, "Hey, 'Deneuve'."

-Wanna say hi to all you "Deneuve" fans.

[cheering]

Woo woo!

[bright music]

-I started reading the magazine when I first started coming out.

It kinda helped me remember that I wasn't all alone.

DEB: A woman came up to us, and she was crying.

And I said, "Are you upset?" She goes, "No, I'm really happy.

I live out here.

There are no other gay people that I know of,

and I get this magazine.

It comes every month, and it's like my only connection

to the gay community."

And I realized at that moment that this has a little more

importance than I actually realize.

-We probably get an average of 100 letters a week.

KATIE: Let me just share with you this one letter.

The header on it is, "Saved from the Patriarchal South.

May the Goddesses bless you!

Your magazine 'Deneuve,' has saved me from the patriarchy.

I now feel connected to the Lesbian World.

Back here in Kentucky where the KKK still march,

positive publications such as yours

can only bring us more support."

[upbeat music]

-Welcome to the 6th annual

Lesbians Who Tech and Allies Summit!

[boisterous cheers, applause]

I started Lesbians Who Tech

because I felt like my voice was missing.

I just had never seen professional queer women

in one place like that, that immense kind of realness.

We live in a systemic, racist, sexist, anti-LGBTQ world.

That's just the way it is. And we have to fight it.

We have to fight it every day.

-So, you have all of these conversations

that are happening, but they don't necessarily

always include us, right?

They don't include the LGBTQ community.

They don't include the Black community.

They don't include quote-unquote "marginalized" communities.

And so, by creating a space and place for people,

you're creating community.

LEANNE: I became an adult around the age of queer versus lesbian.

Anyone over a certain age is team lesbian,

and anyone under a certain age is team queer.

And I was like, why?

And obviously, older women, the word "queer" was derogatory.

I just think a lot of young people kind of

felt like "lesbian" is this like,

softball coach in the Midwest, you know?

I thought long and hard about the name

when I was starting this.

I mean "lesbian" is not the greatest-sounding word.

"Gay" is much better.

It's one syllable. It's shorter.

But it's our word, and I was like, fuck it.

We need to claim this, and we need to make it not this

stuffy, Birkenstock, old white lady thing.

I don't think Lesbians Who Tech would be able to exist

without things like "Curve."

I mean, we're built upon the foundation of that early work.

I mean, this conference is lesbian visibility.

KATE: What's happening here right now is Franco's legacy!

[many conversations]

[motorcycles rev, dance music starts]

[music with a heavy beat]

-The early '90s in San Francisco was the heyday.

San Francisco was so on fire and so alive.

We owned Valencia Street in the Mission.

You'd just walk from Artemis Cafe to Amelia's Bar

to Osento Bathhouse because we'd never been able to do that.

So, we went to this extreme of like,

we're gonna make our own culture.

-I grew up in Ohio.

If I were to have been out,

I would've immediately been gay bashed.

I escaped [laughs] on the Greyhound out here,

and I found my tribe.

-Growing up in a small town, I had to silence myself a lot.

So, when I arrived in San Francisco,

I was not silent at all.

I took up as much space as I possibly could.

To be in a place where you're just literally

running down the street with your shirt off,

which I did in many circumstances.

[cheering]

FRANCO: It was really an exciting, amazing,

sexually-freeing time.

RACHEL: Queer sexuality was really coming into its own, and

the founding of this magazine was really part of that.

[gentle music]

FRANCO: My plan for the magazine was to show the inclusiveness

of the lesbian community.

We put African-American women on the cover,

we put older women on the cover, we put all shapes and sizes.

ANITA: Upcoming lesbians could identify with

someone in those pages.

JEWELLE: For the magazine to have photographs

of all different kinds of lesbians,

that was a huge deal.

It wasn't a glamour magazine. It was a community magazine.

And everybody in the community saw themselves in "Curve."

PAGE: The media pours this avalanche of identity,

and well, it's missing 75% of the people in the world.

Frank's magazine brought all the women forward and said,

look how beautiful we are.

-This magazine was about arts and theater and sports

and culture and politics.

Talking about marriage equality.

No one was talking about that in the '90s.

Today, there are 700 LGBTQ elected officials

in the United States.

Back then? Maybe 20-25 and growing.

But she would highlight them every single month in there,

to ensure that people were talking about how important

it is to have LGBTQ representation.

-Knowing about other people's experiences, their stories,

helping you to overcome your own insecurities

about your sexuality, coming out.

There was a lotta coming out stories.

And then stories about marriage and about the legal struggles

of gay women trying to adopt.

RACHEL: When I was trying to get pregnant, I wrote a piece

on that journey for the magazine.

That was a really groundbreaking topic to cover.

-It showcased feminine lesbians for the first time.

I mean, that was huge for me.

It's like if you wanna be really butch, that is completely cool.

But if you don't, if you wanna be femme, if you wanna

wear lipstick, if you wanna wear dresses, if you wanna

cut your hair short or not, that's your business.

And it's all okay.

LEA: When the magazine put me on the cover, it allowed women

in our own community to see a well-spoken, funny, intelligent,

charming, gentlemanly butch, which is basically who I am

unless you cross my fuckin' path.

JUDEA: They had a article, "Lipstick and Dipstick,"

which I thought was so brilliant that they would have

the feminine and the masculine side of lesbianism together.

ANITA: The first time I saw the magazine, I remember there was

this brown woman on the cover, Linda Villarosa.

Just the power of seeing me. [sniffs back tears]

KATE: There's so much about the word "lesbian"

that is freighted with shame and stigma.

That word has been sullied, it has been cheapened,

it's been mocked.

The dominant culture has tried to strip it of honor and dignity

and pride and nuance and beauty and sacredness and all of that.

The magazine said, here we are, and it's "lesbian!"

And all of the sudden, you felt like maybe you were

rebuilt a little bit inside.

-After I saw the first issue, I knew right then that being

the editor of a magazine like "Deneuve" was gonna be

what I wanted to do with my life.

I'd been married 16 years as a lesbian.

And she'd always been butch.

And by the time she came to me and said,

"I think I'm trans," I was like, "Yeah, you know. I know."

We went to Franco first and just said,

"Jake is coming out as trans.

Do you want us to keep this secret?

Or will I lose my job, or what's gonna happen?"

Franco said, "No, absolutely not.

You are the best person to be running this magazine.

We love Jake and accept him, and he's part of the family."

And it meant everything.

The magazine was never just a job.

It was a lifestyle.

To know that I wasn't gonna lose that because my partner

had found himself after 16 years, I was happy for him

and then thrilled for me. [chuckles]

You can actually see the imprint of the impact we had

by welcoming trans men.

And the same thing for bringing in transgender women

who identify as lesbian.

We covered some trans lesbians very early

compared to some other publications.

We didn't do as great of a job of covering

black and brown women.

Our failing was that we didn't push more to make it happen.

The goal was always to be as intersectional as possible,

and we were able to accomplish that as the years went on.

We're able to see how much more we need to do now.

DENICE: So, Amber Hikes, I'm really excited that you're

gonna be able to meet her because she,

for the past two years,

has led the Mayor's office of LGBT affairs and has

done some really incredible work addressing

racism within the LGBTQ community.

FRANCO: Hey! AMBER: Hey!

It's good to see you. [laughs]

DENICE: It's good to see you too!

FRANCO: I'm so excited to meet you.

AMBER: Same here.

I'm really excited to meet you as well.

There were not a lot of ways that you could see yourself.

Way before "The L Word" there was "Curve,"

and I could see myself represented there.

DENICE: There's something to be said around that moment that

a young person watches a video where they feel affirmed

in their sexuality or their gender presentation or identity.

And walking into a bookstore and looking at "Curve,"

right, on a table.

I see that same moment, that coming of age moment where

something in you unlocks and says, "It's okay."

AMBER: It's okay.

And there's other people that are like me. Yeah.

DENICE: You know, one of the things about social media,

like folks who've been most marginalized really having,

taking the microphone, being able to create their own content

and tell their own stories in their own words and then

be connected to a wide audience.

We want representation, but we also want ownership.

We also want to be able to make decisions, right?

-'Cause folks were saying over and over again, they just

didn't feel like they had that seat at the table.

They didn't feel like they had a voice.

They weren't reflected in the leadership of our organizations,

our LGBT organizations.

Policy wasn't really impacting them.

So, the symbolic change was

to add these black and brown stripes to the flag.

So, we raised the flag literally right here at these flag poles

on a Thursday, and by Friday morning,

it had gone completely viral.

CNN had picked it up, "HuffPost" picked it up,

Breitbart picked it up. [laughs] It was a scary time.

I joke about it now, but the hate mail was out of control.

The death threats were out of control.

The mayor got death threats on my behalf!

Even people were so angry, it's like at least you're

finally talking about it. -Right.

-Because I feel like white folks in the LGBT community have,

I mean, that's how privilege works.

You were able to ignore it for so long, right?

-Right. Exactly. -And so, now, it's like fine.

Yell at me and tell me racism doesn't exist.

But at least you're talking about it. [laughs]

-I think something that Amber and I often have to

remind folks of, and just in conversation within

the LGBTQ community or certain parts of it,

is that LGBTQ rights is immigrant rights.

-That's right. That's right. -Is black and brown rights.

-It's disability rights. -Is disability rights.

And that these issues are connected, and systems

of oppression are layered and connected as well.

And so, we can't have these siloed conversations.

-I know for me and the work that I do, I am reminded very

literally every day about my predecessors and the giants that

really paved the way for any of the work that we're able to do.

-I would not be here if it wasn't for the work of

Gloria Anzaldua, Cherrie Moraga in particular,

Tatiana De La Tierra who really were the first -

-All women we've covered in the magazine too.

-And this is why "Curve"... -It's amazing!

-You know? It's amazing!

-Hey, Franco, this was such an honor.

-Thank you so much. -God, this was amazing.

And thank you.

Thank you from younger me, from like age 16.

-From little baby gay, pre-gay! Almost bi, not really though.

-[laughs] Oh, you doing all of it.

-We doing all of it! [laughter]

[upbeat music]

FRANCO: If you don't have a good cover, you're not gonna attract

somebody to buy it on the newsstand.

To start off with, we put women in the community, either that

we thought were hot and sexy, or somebody on staff

was possibly sleeping with, I don't know.

But we'd always hoped to have a celebrity.

The only out lesbian that I could think of at the time

was Martina Navratilova.

And I'm pretty sure I thought Lily Tomlin was a lesbian,

although she was not out.

-Johnny, it's a pleasure.

-So, I tried writing to Martina Navratilova's people,

didn't get a response.

I tried writing to Lily Tomlin's person.

One day, an intern said to me,

"Oh, somebody called while you were in the bathroom.

She said her name was Lily Tomlin or something like that."

And I'm like, "Wait. Lily Tomlin

called this office, and I was in the bathroom?"

And I said, "Tell me what she said."

"She said she would love to be on the cover,

but she just doesn't think the timing is right.

She can't, and she's sure you will understand."

RACHEL: It was very frustrating to have these singers and actors

that we knew, as a community, were lesbian-identified

and were adored by so many lesbians,

and we couldn't get them on the cover!

FRANCO: Our first big celebrity was Melissa Etheridge.

I was so blown away that she said yes.

It was justifying that hey, we've arrived.

We actually landed our first celebrity,

"celesbian."

I got very involved in the election of Clinton.

REPORTER: For the first time in a race for the White House,

gay and lesbian issues were an important part of the campaign.

MELISSA: I was invited to the first ever triangle ball

at the inaugural celebration.

This was the first time that gays

put anything like this together.

The gays were acknowledged

in helping Bill Clinton get elected.

We were having a blast! Everyone was.

KD Lang, she had just recently come out, and she calls me up.

And I'm proud to say right now, I'm very proud to have been

a lesbian all my life. [cheers, applause]

Wow! The place went crazy.

And I was ah, I think I just came out.

Someone called and said, "Hey, there's this

new magazine for lesbians."

And I was like, well, this is amazing!

This is great.

I was so happy to be able to help the magazine,

and for them to help me.

I think it worked both ways.

So, a year went by till we landed our next celebrities,

which were the Indigo Girls.

RACHEL: We were actually the first glossy magazine

to put Ani DiFranco on its cover.

And while I was interviewing her on the telephone, she told me

she had backed up the toilet in her hotel room

by shaving her head into the toilet.

I remember young Rachel Maddow in her leather jacket,

seeing her for the first time.

CAL: We all lusted over the covers though, right?

And we were often elbowing each other out of the way

to who would get to go on the photo shoot,

who would get to go on the interview,

who would get to be on the phone call.

Lucy Lawless was my favorite.

Lea DeLaria.

Marga Gomez.

I just wanna say, my favorite show is "Love Connection."

The favorite show of many gay men, lesbians, and bisexuals.

Because it makes us feel better about our choices.

[cheering]

FRANCO: We thought it would be a no-brainer to get ads

like tampons and razors.

But the misconceived notion that lesbians don't shave their legs,

and that we don't use tampons.

Advertisers really, you know, struggled with figuring out

how are they going to advertise in there.

INTERVIEWER: Is there a risk for a company when it advertises in

gay magazines that a right wing group might then indeed boycott?

GUEST: Absolutely.

The right is very organized, and they've used gays and lesbians

as demon figures for years now.

REPORTER: "Deneuve," now in its third year, has only

two mainstream ads in its latest issue.

FRANCO: It's hard selling a gay product,

and it's very hard selling a lesbian product.

So, I do think that there's kind of this

double negative going on.

KATIE: The day we got Bud Light to advertise was huge.

We felt like we'd suddenly arrived.

FRANCO: Bud Light was our feather in the cap with our

first national ad.

Subaru was known as the lesbian car of choice, and they

reinforced that by making lesbian-specific ads.

And it just sort of opened up different avenues for us

to break into different advertising markets.

LAURA: She had this amazing effect that was way beyond

just the readership of "Curve" magazine

and way beyond the community.

The things that were discussed in the magazine

were then picked up by mainstream publications.

Those were the things that led

to all the gains that we have made.

LEA: The magazine contributed greatly to that.

It was all over the world.

Something shifted, where lesbians started

to enter popular culture.

It began with KD Lang, Melissa Etheridge,

and very soon after that time, Ellen and Rosie.

ELLEN: Susan...I'm gay.

[uproarious laughter, cheers from audience]

We do find out that the character is Lebanese. And....

[laughter]

-Lebanese. -Yeah, yeah.

-Just outta the blue? She just - -No, there've been clues.

-Oh, really? -I mean, you've seen her eating

baba ghanoush, if you've watched the show at all.

[laughter] -Baba ghanoush.

-And hummus and big, big fan of Casey Casem

and Kathy and Jimmy's. [laughter]

Yeah, and - -Hey! Wait a minute!

I'm a big fan of Casey Casem. Listen.

CASEY: You go, girl!

[laughter, applause]

-Maybe I'm Lebanese. -You could be Lebanese.

-I could be Lebanese myself. I didn't know that.

[laughter, cheers] -You know, sometimes that's odd.

'Cause I pick up sometimes that you might be Lebanese.

-Yeah! [laughter]

MERRYN: There was Sandra Bernhard.

There was Madonna.

They were glamorous, they were successful, they were at

the top of their fields, and this was newsworthy.

And on top of that, it became fashionable.

Cindy Crawford did that famous "Vanity Fair" cover

with KD Lang. So, it was in the air.

And it really entered the zeitgeist,

and it became attractive.

Straight women are now seeing lesbians as chic,

although we always have been.

MERRYN: The impact of lesbian chic was to give us

a sense of identity.

It was to give us a profile that we hadn't had.

LAURA: When "The L Word" came out, for example, people were

skeptical about it, particularly 'cause there were a lot of

femmes in there, more than I think some people wanted.

And yet, they were able to not only create a dialogue

in the magazine and let people talk about

the good things of it,

the things they wished they had seen differently,

but they were putting those images on the cover.

They made "The L Word" credible.

They made it part of the mainstream.

[driving music]

♪ I got this feeling on a summer day when you were gone

♪ I crashed my car into the bridge

♪ I watched and let it burn

♪ I threw your shit into a bag and pushed it down the stairs

♪ I crashed my car into the bridge

♪ I. Don't. Care. I love it

♪ I don't care ♪

MARIAH: I started The Dinah in 1991.

We really try to create an environment of empowerment

and female visibility.

I can't tell you how many stories

of people who come here to find a sense of community

that will make them feel whole.

We are becoming so accepted in mainstream society.

We're not quite there yet but we're much closer

than we've ever been.

And yet, we still need our own spaces because

we still have our own culture.

"Curve" created a bridge for people that connected them

to our community and to their own self-worth.

Because our spaces, and having our spaces, are critical

to our collective self-esteem.

[driving music continues]

♪ I don't care I love it

♪ I don't care I love it ♪

RACHEL: We got someone we wanted for the cover.

We got all these great writers to contribute pieces.

We got columnists who would write regularly.

We got a great reception everywhere we went.

FRANCO: And what she's done is so courageous.

She's risked her friends, her family, her job, her house

to come and tell you who she is.

And for that, I think every woman and every person

in this audience should give her a hand.

RACHEL: Franco becoming a celebrity and representative

of a new wave of lesbians in the community,

everything was a triumph, and everything felt good.

SANDI: It had become a name that was recognizable.

FRANCO: Our subscription numbers were rising.

Our newsstand sales were great.

We're starting to get national ads.

Things are really good.

And then one day this letter arrived at the door:

a lawsuit.

The air just went out of everything like phhhooooo.

[somber music]

We were sued by a French actress named Catherine Deneuve

over the name of the magazine.

She didn't want her name associated

with a lesbian magazine.

She didn't want anybody to think she might be a lesbian.

Really, you can sue anybody for any reason.

Those with the deeper pockets win.

RACHEL: The lawsuit came as a complete surprise.

We couldn't believe that such a prestigious film star would

really be bothering about us.

And if anything, why wasn't she delighted that this wonderful

lesbian magazine potentially bore her name?

After all, she had been in "The Hunger,"

which is a lesbian cult film.

DEB: It's like if I starred in three lesbian movies, but I

don't want you to call your magazine "Deb," you know?

SANDI: It seemed homophobic and all sorts of other things.

And so, it really hit Frank in a lotta different areas.

I suppose if I had been her lawyer at the time,

and she would've called me and said, "Hey, I have this

great idea for the name of a lesbian magazine.

I'd like to call it 'Deneuve,'" I probably woulda said,

"Do you have her permission?"

We were sued in two different countries:

two separate lawsuits, two sets of different counsel,

two sets of bills, two sets of filing fees.

We had to come up with lawyers, we had to come up with money,

and we had to go down and do a deposition.

Their focus was really on the name of the magazine.

Where did the name of the magazine come from?

It was her name, and we had no right to it.

And we were using it to sell our magazine.

All I kept thinking was

wow, they're gonna put us out of business.

Was this magazine gonna fold? Were we gonna lose our jobs?

We were terrified. And Franco was terrified.

She lost weight, got real pale.

You could tell the stress was really affecting her.

ROBIN: There was a light that was gone for a little while.

And at one point, she said, "Do I keep fighting,

or do I just take this as a sign and close it up?"

FRANCO: The lawsuit was the most stressful time in my whole life.

My hair started to fall out.

And I didn't let on to the true extent

of the financial difficulties that we were having.

DEB: Franco came to the office, and she was really stressed out.

Her face was red. She was sweating.

She slapped this thing down on the table.

[sighs] "We got the money for the next issue."

And in this roll of paper that she had set on the table was

a giant stack of money, like from a movie.

When I walked in to take money from a loan shark,

I thought, I have hit rock bottom.

And if this fails, I might be really physically in danger.

Everybody was just up in arms like, are you kidding?

You can't take this away from us.

We're gonna have to fight this together as a community.

We really had this urgency that we were not gonna be defeated.

You know, you come so far, you're not gonna go backward.

That's how people felt.

There was no way that we could let it happen.

She had this lesbian army behind her willing to

go into battle with her.

The magazine was definitely worth fighting for.

There's nothing I wouldn't do to save the magazine.

CAL: One morning, she comes in, in her full combat fatigues,

and she said, "Girls, we are not gonna let this beat us."

It turned the page.

FRANCO: Somebody had an idea that we could

throw a big fundraiser to save the magazine.

-I'd like to say good morning to everybody.

We didn't sleep at all last night.

-Not at all? -No ma'am.

Well, I actually snuck in a couple of hours.

Franco, 45 minutes.

-Good morning, sunshine.

PAGE: The idea was to gather all of the artists that we knew

and throw this massive party to raise resources

to help Frank fight.

It was our community really, really banding together

to support Frank.

-Tell us how you're feeling today.

-I'm really hoping - -That everybody comes today.

-[sobbing]

-There's lotsa love here. I'm seeing love.

FRANCO: People we had interviewed through the magazine

found out, and they wanted to come and fly themselves

to San Francisco and be part of this event.

People wanted to donate stuff for a silent auction

and a live auction, and lesbian celebrities even auctioned off

dates with themselves.

I remember Lea DeLaria.

What was happening to the magazine was fucking bullshit.

And I wanted to help.

We got $800 over here. We're looking for $850.

We're looking for $850. We got $850 on the line!

[cheering]

I wish I could say it's the first time

I've auctioned myself off for a date!

KATIE: So many people came out to support us.

-It was like a Who's Who of lesbian comedians,

lesbian music, lesbian authors.

-She'll read to you in a limo, okay?

PAGE: It was packed, completely packed.

There was so much power in the room.

It was mecca.

[energetic, pulsing dance music]

FRANCO: I had never seen the lesbian community come together

as a whole for something that wasn't

strictly a political movement.

I mean, maybe coming together to save the magazine

was a political action.

DEB: And it was just by the love of the community

and the contributions of the people that performed

that allowed us to keep going.

FRANCO: And now I'm overwhelmed by the support you're giving me

and the support you're giving the magazine.

And thank you so, so much.

[cheers, applause]

We got to a point where we were either like, all right,

change the name and live to publish another day.

Or be stubborn, keep the name, and go under

from just the legal fees alone.

And we were able to settle, and the settlement required us

to change our name.

One day, Franco came and she says, "I got it."

And she had been sitting on a bench somewhere

looking out at a view.

And she noticed that the hills were curvaceous,

and she thought "Curve."

"Curve."

We were like what?! We loved it.

VICKI: That's a great name!

We've changed the name starting

with the January '96 Martina Navratilova cover.

The same magazine, the same product with just a new name.

"Curve" isn't straight.

It's bent, it's gay, it's...

the curves of a woman's body, it's beautiful.

It's a much better name.

People can pronounce it!

-Thanks, "Curve."

[pensive music]

[music slowly fades out]

[birds singing, distant traffic]

[hooves against the dirt track]

FRANCO: Every month, we'd get in these boxes.

Each box weighed 33 to 35 pounds.

Magazines, like a little box like this.

But they were heavy.

So, I would pile two or three boxes up,

and I would just carry them to the back.

We'd get done twice or three times as fast!

And I would cut through the kitchen, and we had this carpet.

And I must've just hit the carpet wrong because....

I hit the carpet wrong, and I just remember

that feeling of like...you know.

The next thing I knew I was just in a lot of pain,

and I was on my way to the hospital.

[pensive music]

LAURA: When I walked into the hospital room,

I was like, what happened?

I mean, dropping boxes on her feet, they dropped and literally

crushed the bones in her feet, the tendons in her feet.

And the doctors were like, oh, it'll heal.

It's just, it's like a broken foot. You'll be fine.

I don't think that I or any of her friends really

at the time knew how much pain she really was in.

I think we all thought an accident happened,

no problem, it'll heal. And she'll be back.

Week after week of doing that, it clearly was, we were starting

to realize that something was not, it was not fine.

The pain wasn't decreasing at all.

She's going to multiple doctors.

Now she's having multiple surgeries.

Every time I seem like I had surgery,

instead of getting better,

my feet would just get more and more sensitive

to the point where I could not wear shoes and socks.

I couldn't have the covers touching my feet.

I couldn't even put my feet in running water.

-What did it feel like?

-Like knives or like being burnt.

She hid a lot of her pain.

She hid, I think, a lot of how it was affecting her.

Because she wanted to portray

the person that everyone saw her as:

this very strong, invincible person that could do anything.

Finally, she realized, I have to change how I'm living my life.

And it started to dawn on her that she was probably

not gonna be able to continue to run the magazine.

FRANCO: This is what it's like. Give me your hand.

JEN: Uuuuuh.... No.

FRANCO: Give me your hand. This is what it's like.

I'm sitting here.

I'm in a meeting, and this is what's happening with my foot.

Talk to me. Talk to me.

You might get stabbed at any time by this sharp object.

You know, this is why I didn't continue to do the magazine.

This is why I had to turn it over.

It's like, I can't sit here and be completely present

because of the pain.

And not only like the physical pain, but this anx-,

this pain of like, okay, concentrate now.

You never know when this is gonna come down and stab you.

And it's very exhausting.

People had wanted to buy the magazine for a long time,

but I was not ready.

I wanted to sell it to somebody who really was in it

for the right reasons, and that was her.

-Yeah. -So.

No regrets.

I felt like my work needed to be carried on by other people.

-It's Merryn. How are you?

Franco did a very brave thing when she put the word "lesbian"

on the cover of "Curve" magazine.

And to just get that on the front of a magazine

was a victory.

To have many requests from readers asking me to take that

word off, because they felt it was excluding or erasing them

seemed to me like we were going back in history.

I think it's necessary for individuals to use the words

that they, themselves, identify with, without fear of reprisal

or without fear of being accused of erasing somebody

with a different identity to them.

In the end, I and my publisher, Silke Bader,

decided to remove the word.

For better or worse, it is now gone.

The magazine has a much broader aesthetic now.

It can be whatever you want it to be for you.

-Yeah, there it is!

So, it definitely looks a lot different today

than it did back then.

-It kinda looks like a "Vogue"-type magazine,

like high fashion.

-Yeah, it would be.

I just don't know how you would know that that's

a lesbian magazine from the front cover.

-Gay media used to be a very big deal:

"The Advocate," "Curve," all the others.

And now that's been mainstreamed.

There's so much gay material in mainstream media,

which is sort of the success, right?

That it's there, so you don't need

these separate publications.

And so, it's happened not just with gay magazines,

but you know, African-American magazines.

Now things have been mainstreamed.

And so, that's a good thing and a bad thing.

That's a success, and it's also a loss at the same time.

FRANCO: We're trying to figure out is a lesbian magazine

still needed today?

I mean the mission was really to foster lesbian visibility within

our community and also externally from the outside in.

And is the mission still relevant?

-It's still really relevant and very important.

Yeah.

-We still need a reminder of the history of our movement

and also a beat on what's happening.

FRANCO: But does it need to be a physical print magazine?

EMILY: No, I don't think so. -Do you read magazines?

-No, I don't. -Do you read magazines?

-No. -[laughs]

-Magazines? Magazines?

I think there's different ways to tell stories than just

actually writing them out.

-There's this huge misconception that

because we have marriage equality,

we must have employment protections.

We must have housing protections.

We must have public accommodation discrimination

protections, and we don't on a national level.

So, we get calls every day from people whose children are being

taken away from them by the courts because the judge is

homophobic or transphobic.

We get calls every day by people who are denied

basic medical care because of their identity.

-People are really scared.

People are really scared of what's coming next.

And it's not safe to be queer right now.

It just isn't.

MARCHERS: What do we want? Gay rights!

When do we want them? Now!

-We've been fighting for equality.

We've been fighting to not get beat up or to have our job

taken away because of who we love: very, very sort of basic.

And in that fight, we became more visible.

As we became more visible, we also became a target.

-You know, you're obviously

a strong advocate for lesbian rights,

and you've mentioned that you'd someday like

to have a child or children.

How would you raise the child? Could you be neutral?

FRANCO: I'd raise a child as a child should be raised,

in a loving family.

-I wonder if you can give the child options.

GERALDO: What she's saying is -

and we're skirting around it -

she's saying that you're gonna propagandize

and brainwash the child into being gay like you.

-I mean, shouldn't the kid have a right to a father?

What are you gonna tell the kid when he asks, "Where's Daddy?"

"Oh, he's the one with the breasts." I mean, come on.

KATIE: I looked forward to the day that a magazine like ours

wouldn't be necessary because we wouldn't

be discriminated against. We wouldn't be isolated.

We would see ourselves reflected everywhere.

And to some extent, we've made huge strides.

I feel like in the last couple of years,

we've started to go backwards,

and things that we took for granted

are now in question again.

DEB: What's at risk right now for the gay community is a

throwback to discrimination and being seen as "other."

And I think it's really important

to not let up for a minute.

The old line, people who don't know their history are doomed to

repeat it, what everybody fought so hard for could be lost.

-There's a sense that because gay marriage is no longer

an impossibility, people have an illusion of safety.

How safe any of us are... I don't know.

[suspenseful music]

There is growing concern in this country, and fear,

about deadly attacks against transgender Americans,

particularly trans women of color.

More than 100 anti-LGBT bills have been

introduced in 29 states.

The U.S. Supreme Court sided today with a Colorado baker

who refused, on religious grounds, to make a wedding cake

for a same-sex couple.

REPORTER: Georgia became the first U.S. state to pass

a so-called religious freedom bill, allowing businesses and

organizations to withhold services from gays and lesbians.

Mississippi passed its own version.

Critics say it's the harshest yet.

-When it comes to marriage, obviously the Supreme Court

handed us a huge victory in 2015 recognizing the freedom

to marry for same-sex couples.

But in another sense, we're subject to a patchwork

of state protections: Only 28 states expressly protecting

people who are LGBT from being fired

or turned away from housing or public places

simply because of who they are.

All of a sudden, the rights that

we didn't even realize we had are gone.

Like little things that protected us in our jobs

in different cities and stuff like that, they've all been

just like picked, picked, picked away.

The Trump administration has told the Supreme Court that

employers should be free to fire people simply because

they're gay or transgender.

Similarly, the administration has told transgender troops

they're not welcome to serve in our military

unless they hide who they are.

The new regulation keeps transgender troops

from serving openly.

It also blocks troops from receiving care

if they transition to another gender.

-...the fact that we're being erased by

this current administration from the websites.

We're being erased from the census bureau.

-You know, if we're not counted, we're not visible.

All of these moves are efforts to push LGBTQ people

out of public life, to push us back

to where they think we belong, and to roll back

civil rights protections we've enjoyed for decades now.

[uplifting music, flags waving in the wind]

FRANCO: I thought that once we achieved marriage equality,

that we would have equal rights across the board.

Instead of now, we're doing this slide down the hill, of yes,

we got that right, but we're really under attack now.

Conservative forces are trying to dehumanize us

every single day.

When I think of "Curve," I think again,

it's this power of a space that's ours, right?

And the space doesn't have to be just publication.

I mean, it's creating that space,

it's fighting for that space,

and also letting younger folks know that

there is that space, when they're ready.

And that we're ready to support them.

-You know, that's always been the mission at "Curve."

[knocking]

FRANCO: Come in! [dog barks]

LAURA: Hey, Frank!

What you started was, at the time, and granted you were

on the shoulders of other lesbians -

and women before you. -The greats, yes.

For sure.

I didn't start the movement. That's for darn sure!

-Right, right, right. No, of course not.

But you created a foundation to fight for equality.

You created a foundation for dialogue and creating

conversations and content that nobody was creating.

-I think it's really interesting that you keep

using this word "foundation."

Because maybe "Curve" could be a foundation going forward:

a foundation to foster women's voices, and give money

to projects that women are doing.

You know, from going around North America, really, and

speaking to younger activists, they all said the same thing:

that our voices need to be heard.

Meeting them was very powerful.

They really are true advocates for our community.

Maybe a print magazine isn't needed anymore.

Maybe I've fulfilled that mission.

-Yeah.

-But giving a voice to the LGBT community,

that vision is not accomplished.

Having equal rights is not accomplished.

-Are you ready to let the print magazine go?

-[heavy sigh]

If the community's saying they don't need that anymore,

I have to come to grips with it.

It's gonna be one of those hard days in my life for sure,

when the last print edition of "Curve" comes out.

I don't feel like without a magazine,

there's no me, you know?

I feel like I have...

you know, I have made a difference.

Running a magazine, you...

learn that the impossible things can become possible.

[mellow music]

DENICE: It's so incredibly important for us to be connected

to our lineage, to those who came before us.

I often think about those who walk through a door and cracked

it open wider, so that we could walk through it after them.

There's still a lot of work to do to fight homophobia,

to fight transphobia, to fight gender violence.

So, when I hear young people say, "I feel less alone because

I listen to your poems every night," or, "I wrote my own poem

because of your poem," I feel like maybe

I'm doing a little bit of good in the world.

KIM: Fifty years ago, I could not exist!

I could not have this family. I could not have this life.

I could not do the things that I do or say the things that I say.

And there are so many people who have made it possible

for this moment in time.

I feel like, "thank you!"

And so, I have work to do with this, because this space

is constantly under threat.

Ideally, visibility looks like us being able to be the authors

of our own experience and to be able to tell our own stories.

I mean, I'm committed to making sure that generations

in the future see more visibility, more freedom

than what we have access to now.

ANDREA: The reality is that our movement still needs mentorship.

And I see myself as a person who can be that for other people

by living authentically, by telling my story,

by being all of who I am.

When there is so much at stake right now, our positive stories

are some of the most powerful tools that we have.

I want folks to pay attention rather than to just think

that this is something that we can't correct.

Now is the time to go to that 8:00 AM march on a Saturday,

to vote in every single election, to run for office

if you feel like you can, to speak up, to share your story.

This is what makes our visibility so powerful.

[upbeat music in the parade, happily cheering crowds]

[dance music: "Everybody Everybody" by Black Box]

♪ Ooh ooh, ooh ooh ooh ooh

♪ Ooh ooh, ooh ooh ooh ooh

[dance music continues]

♪ You won't belong to me I let you down

♪ I walk around and see your night skyline

♪ I feel the light but you don't want to stay

♪ So lonely now, just let me off downtown

♪ Set it free, set it free

♪ Set it free, set it free....

FRANCO: I feel lucky.

Most people can spend a lifetime

and still never know why they were put here on earth.

I was here to create the magazine.

Every time we put out a magazine, it felt

groundbreaking, like the work was so important.

And the work is not done.

I feel hopeful.

I'm really excited to see what the next generation of activists

do and how they use make the changes that need to happen.

Maybe I helped lay the foundation

for what will come next.

Now, that would be my legacy.

♪ Ooh ooh, ooh ooh ooh ooh

♪ Ooh ooh, ooh ooh ooh ooh

♪ Ooh ooh, ooh ooh ooh ooh

♪ Everybody, everybody Everybody, everybody

♪ Oh, everybody! Everybody! Everybody!

♪ Everybody, everybody Everybody, everybody

♪ Oh, everybody Everybody, everybody

♪ Everybody, everybody ♪

[upbeat music]