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There are two different styles, right?
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One is, you know,
I become the benign dictator
3
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and I have written all the tunes
4
00:00:13,630 --> 00:00:16,365
and I have done an arrangement
of everything
5
00:00:16,366 --> 00:00:19,815
and I've picked the sounds, and I go,
6
00:00:19,816 --> 00:00:26,978
"Okay, now I know exactly what I want
to say, now come and add to it," right?
7
00:00:27,070 --> 00:00:29,741
And then interesting things
start happening that way,
8
00:00:29,742 --> 00:00:31,460
but I still keep complete control.
9
00:00:31,461 --> 00:00:35,249
And then sometimes,
on other projects, I just go...
10
00:00:35,450 --> 00:00:41,049
I mean, we did a Spider-Man movie
and it was sort of an interesting thing.
11
00:00:41,050 --> 00:00:46,694
I had Johnny Marr, I had Pharrell
Williams, Junkie XL, Mike Einziger.
12
00:00:46,695 --> 00:00:49,710
And I said, "Let's do it like a band,
but let's do it like this:
13
00:00:49,711 --> 00:00:52,127
let's go and see the movie
the night before."
14
00:00:52,128 --> 00:00:54,849
So, Sony let us in their screening room,
15
00:00:54,850 --> 00:00:57,318
and the next morning
we came in with nothing
16
00:00:57,319 --> 00:01:00,186
other than we knew the story
we wanted to tell,
17
00:01:00,287 --> 00:01:04,029
and I think it was Johnny...
I said, "What key?"
18
00:01:04,030 --> 00:01:07,600
And, you know, Johnny is a guitarist,
so it would be E, right?
19
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"Okay, we'll start in E."
20
00:01:09,450 --> 00:01:13,159
And it was just like a band,
you know? It was really nice.
21
00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:17,736
Somebody would have a phrase, and then
there would be a hole to be filled,
22
00:01:17,737 --> 00:01:21,594
and it would be filled
by whoever had the best idea.
23
00:01:21,595 --> 00:01:26,318
And because, you know, we're all
pretty secure or insecure musicians,
24
00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:28,139
I don't know, we're musicians.
25
00:01:28,140 --> 00:01:31,850
So, we would go, "Oh yeah, no, no,
his idea is much better than mine,
26
00:01:31,851 --> 00:01:33,865
let's try that," you know?
27
00:01:33,866 --> 00:01:38,754
So that was a very organic way
of sort of making something.
28
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It's like kids sitting there with Legos.
29
00:01:41,291 --> 00:01:43,490
It always is, you know?
30
00:01:43,491 --> 00:01:49,164
I mean, the most important word
about music is the word "play."
31
00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:53,700
And you have to have a playfulness
if you do these situations.
32
00:01:53,701 --> 00:01:58,127
And when music sounds good
it's because it's playful,
33
00:01:58,128 --> 00:02:00,099
because it's playing, you know?
34
00:02:00,100 --> 00:02:02,187
I always think, you know,
Beethoven's Fifth,
35
00:02:02,188 --> 00:02:04,480
everybody knows the
'duh, duh, duh, duh,' right?
36
00:02:04,481 --> 00:02:07,829
Every kid walks past the piano
and goes, 'duh, duh, duh, duh,'
37
00:02:07,830 --> 00:02:13,667
but how did he know that the possibilities
existed in those humble little notes?
38
00:02:13,721 --> 00:02:16,134
There has to be...
39
00:02:16,135 --> 00:02:18,627
To be inventive there has to be
a playfulness,
40
00:02:18,628 --> 00:02:20,389
and I think, you know...
41
00:02:20,590 --> 00:02:24,720
I suppose there are two types of kids,
those that got stuck playing with Legos
42
00:02:24,721 --> 00:02:26,731
and then stopped playing with Legos,
43
00:02:26,732 --> 00:02:31,722
and those that started playing
with tape machines, or, you know...
44
00:02:31,863 --> 00:02:36,990
GarageBand or pianos or guitars
or whatever, you know?
45
00:02:37,291 --> 00:02:41,870
But it's all maintaining
a certain level of playfulness.
46
00:02:46,770 --> 00:02:48,771
There is only one director,
47
00:02:48,772 --> 00:02:51,264
and I will listen to the director
and we will discuss
48
00:02:51,265 --> 00:02:55,135
and we will improve things and we
will try to get it closer to his vision.
49
00:02:55,236 --> 00:02:56,820
He is the director.
50
00:02:56,821 --> 00:03:01,319
Anybody else is not the director.
51
00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,814
So it's my duty to make a pact
with the director,
52
00:03:05,815 --> 00:03:07,564
and work towards his vision.
53
00:03:07,565 --> 00:03:09,742
And if the producer disagrees,
54
00:03:09,743 --> 00:03:14,054
it's the director and myself who have
to go and convince the producer
55
00:03:14,055 --> 00:03:16,990
that where we're going
is the right way of going.
56
00:03:16,991 --> 00:03:22,557
It has to be that way because music
is a scary thing for a director
57
00:03:22,558 --> 00:03:26,167
because a director has control of
pretty much everything in the process.
58
00:03:26,191 --> 00:03:30,700
I mean, he's not illiterate,
so he can write a bit of dialog.
59
00:03:30,701 --> 00:03:35,839
He can look through a camera
and pick a lens.
60
00:03:35,940 --> 00:03:40,389
He can probably talk about acting
with great authority.
61
00:03:40,390 --> 00:03:43,610
But when it comes to music,
it gets a little bit more complicated,
62
00:03:43,611 --> 00:03:48,769
so he has to hand over control
to a certain degree.
63
00:03:49,770 --> 00:03:51,889
And I shouldn't abuse that privilege.
64
00:03:51,890 --> 00:03:54,256
The conversations aren't ever about,
65
00:03:54,257 --> 00:03:56,690
"Oh, you should write
a piece of music like this."
66
00:03:56,691 --> 00:03:59,280
The conversations are always
about the story,
67
00:03:59,281 --> 00:04:01,833
and ultimately,
what you're supposed to do
68
00:04:01,834 --> 00:04:06,870
is you're supposed to figure out what the
director's vision is and push it further.
69
00:04:06,871 --> 00:04:11,380
So it's not serving the film,
it's trying to elevate the film.
70
00:04:11,681 --> 00:04:16,399
And sometimes that gets
pretty experimental,
71
00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:20,480
and sometimes it takes people a little
while to get used to something new.
72
00:04:20,781 --> 00:04:23,353
I mean, you're always being asked
to do something new,
73
00:04:23,354 --> 00:04:26,260
but at the same time,
as soon as you do new,
74
00:04:26,261 --> 00:04:29,779
everybody gets a little nervous about that
75
00:04:29,780 --> 00:04:32,024
because who knows?
76
00:04:32,025 --> 00:04:34,320
You know? It's like, I don't know.
77
00:04:34,321 --> 00:04:37,489
So, you know, you work it out together.
78
00:04:37,490 --> 00:04:41,559
But it is the director and you,
it has to be just the two of us,
79
00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,912
and everybody else can become...
yeah, they will be our audience,
80
00:04:45,913 --> 00:04:50,460
and they can... you know, the producer
can be an audience as well in this case,
81
00:04:50,461 --> 00:04:55,019
and if they have a feeling
about something, I want to hear it.
82
00:04:55,220 --> 00:04:59,868
But if it goes directly against
the concept or the ideas
83
00:04:59,869 --> 00:05:02,510
that the director
and I came up with, then...
84
00:05:02,511 --> 00:05:07,400
I'm sorry, I have to stick with the vision
that the director and I have.
85
00:05:11,420 --> 00:05:15,555
What I've found is the way I work
is whereby I work from an idea,
86
00:05:15,556 --> 00:05:20,089
and the intellectual framework
of that idea usually is pretty solid.
87
00:05:20,090 --> 00:05:24,239
And to go back to what John Powell said
about not having it under your fingers,
88
00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,190
sometimes the first version of a piece or
the second version or the third version,
89
00:05:28,191 --> 00:05:31,479
you know, I'm not that good
at doing my own idea yet
90
00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,894
because it's an intellectual construct.
91
00:05:33,895 --> 00:05:37,840
It's not instinctive yet,
it doesn't flow as music.
92
00:05:37,841 --> 00:05:43,110
My problem about music is,
you cannot explain to somebody
93
00:05:43,111 --> 00:05:46,508
why they should love
the piece of music you write.
94
00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,650
It either resonates with them
or it doesn't resonate with them.
95
00:05:49,651 --> 00:05:54,260
And the context of why it resonates
in a film is very specific.
96
00:05:54,261 --> 00:05:58,499
It's about telling that story
in a particular way.
97
00:05:58,500 --> 00:06:04,243
And so, you know, a piece of music
that might be a beautiful piece of music
98
00:06:04,244 --> 00:06:07,260
might be completely wrong
for this movie or for the scene.
99
00:06:07,261 --> 00:06:12,870
And I have written pieces of music
that are perfectly good pieces of music
100
00:06:12,871 --> 00:06:17,764
but needed to be thrown into
the toilet as quickly as possible
101
00:06:17,765 --> 00:06:21,860
because they were
just wrong for the movie.
102
00:06:21,861 --> 00:06:29,589
So, ultimately it's not about the
director's wishes so much or whatever.
103
00:06:29,590 --> 00:06:34,614
It's something we work on together
and suddenly you find that the images
104
00:06:34,615 --> 00:06:39,519
and the music become one thing, you know?
105
00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:44,911
And it becomes undeniable
that this piece of music
106
00:06:44,912 --> 00:06:48,779
and this piece of film fit together,
107
00:06:48,780 --> 00:06:54,101
and so you just work at it
until you get there.
108
00:06:54,102 --> 00:06:58,592
It might be one note, it might be
one sound, it might be one thing.
109
00:06:59,399 --> 00:07:02,224
You know, you can get there.
110
00:07:07,090 --> 00:07:10,439
I don't think Chris will hate me
for saying this,
111
00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,469
I mean, I remember in "The Dark Knight"
there was a scene and he,
112
00:07:14,470 --> 00:07:17,929
like, from day one he kept saying,
"This has to be a fast action scene.
113
00:07:17,930 --> 00:07:19,681
This has to be a fast action scene."
114
00:07:19,682 --> 00:07:23,260
And I kept looking and I'm going,
"I don't think so. I don't think so."
115
00:07:23,261 --> 00:07:27,943
So I wrote the slowest piece
116
00:07:27,944 --> 00:07:31,099
and just sat him down
with everybody in the room,
117
00:07:31,100 --> 00:07:34,249
and just said, "Look, it's not
what you thought it should be,
118
00:07:34,250 --> 00:07:37,340
and it's not what you asked for,
but let me just show you this."
119
00:07:37,341 --> 00:07:39,782
And we played it, and everybody else knew
120
00:07:39,783 --> 00:07:42,456
that Chris had asked
for this fast action piece,
121
00:07:42,457 --> 00:07:45,443
so there was a long silence
at the end of it,
122
00:07:45,444 --> 00:07:48,230
and then Chris went,
"Hm. I suppose that works as well."
123
00:07:48,231 --> 00:07:49,611
It's as simple as that.
124
00:07:49,612 --> 00:07:52,182
I mean, I had an idea,
125
00:07:52,183 --> 00:07:56,803
and I wanted to end up in the same place
as what Chris wanted,
126
00:07:56,804 --> 00:08:03,080
which was he wanted it to stand out and he
wanted it to feel tense and dangerous.
127
00:08:03,081 --> 00:08:08,667
Sometimes by saying, "Oh, it needs
to be fast, and frantic and actiony,"
128
00:08:08,668 --> 00:08:11,933
the words don't necessarily
lead you to the conclusion.
129
00:08:11,934 --> 00:08:15,945
But the only way you can actually
have the conversation
130
00:08:15,946 --> 00:08:18,692
is you have to write the thing,
you have to perform it,
131
00:08:18,693 --> 00:08:21,410
and you have to get a reaction.
132
00:08:21,411 --> 00:08:23,788
An honest reaction.
133
00:08:31,580 --> 00:08:38,619
I don't know what realism is in recording,
in music, in samples, in anything.
134
00:08:38,620 --> 00:08:44,293
Look, we think that if you take something
as simple as an orchestral mock-up,
135
00:08:44,294 --> 00:08:48,719
I mean, our idea of how
one orchestra sounds like
136
00:08:49,220 --> 00:08:52,050
comes from the records
we've been listening to
137
00:08:52,051 --> 00:08:54,943
which were recorded in recording
studios like Abbey Road,
138
00:08:54,944 --> 00:08:58,460
which is a completely fake acoustic.
139
00:08:59,525 --> 00:09:04,216
Abbey Road, the studio itself
was not designed by any great acoustician,
140
00:09:04,217 --> 00:09:06,433
it was designed by the guys,
by the architects
141
00:09:06,434 --> 00:09:10,647
who built the Hoover vacuum company
in London, you know?
142
00:09:10,648 --> 00:09:13,910
It was one of the first studios,
but we all grew up with that sound.
143
00:09:13,911 --> 00:09:18,202
We loved that sound, so we think
that's what an orchestra sounds like.
144
00:09:24,220 --> 00:09:29,570
You have to start off by realizing
that a computer is a musical instrument
145
00:09:29,571 --> 00:09:31,562
that needs just as much practice
146
00:09:31,563 --> 00:09:34,440
as when you practice piano
or the violin or the cello
147
00:09:34,441 --> 00:09:35,860
or whatever, you know?
148
00:09:35,861 --> 00:09:39,965
You have to become fairly
virtuoistic at programming.
149
00:09:40,030 --> 00:09:43,570
And look, I've been doing this
for a very long time,
150
00:09:43,571 --> 00:09:47,220
since literally sampling was invented.
151
00:09:47,221 --> 00:09:50,604
So I was working on 8-bit samplers
152
00:09:50,605 --> 00:09:56,641
and managed to get directors
153
00:09:56,642 --> 00:10:01,010
to feel the intention of the music
behind the mock-up,
154
00:10:01,011 --> 00:10:02,920
which is what it's all about, right?
155
00:10:02,921 --> 00:10:09,585
I mean, you're supposed to go and let them
know what the piece of music is about,
156
00:10:10,484 --> 00:10:12,479
what the emotional intent is.
157
00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,035
And, you know, and we went to 12-bit
samplers, then we went to, you know,
158
00:10:16,036 --> 00:10:22,080
16, 24-bit samplers, then I had a stack
of samplers, and I started to do my own.
159
00:10:22,081 --> 00:10:25,250
In '94 we started to do our own samples.
160
00:10:25,251 --> 00:10:31,015
But it wasn't about making
the music sound better
161
00:10:31,016 --> 00:10:33,851
or making it easier to get the job.
162
00:10:33,852 --> 00:10:37,330
It was just for me because I didn't
want to sit there all day long
163
00:10:37,331 --> 00:10:39,321
listening to shit sounds, you know?
164
00:10:39,322 --> 00:10:44,121
I wanted to spend all day
listening to slightly better sounds
165
00:10:44,122 --> 00:10:47,450
and I wanted to listen to
my favorite players.
166
00:10:47,451 --> 00:10:51,442
I mean, one of the things
I did back then was,
167
00:10:51,443 --> 00:10:57,857
because sampling was seen by an orchestra
as sort of the enemy,
168
00:10:57,858 --> 00:11:02,048
and I went to all my favorite musicians
in London, and I said,
169
00:11:02,049 --> 00:11:05,251
"Look, here's the experiment.
I'm going to try...
170
00:11:05,252 --> 00:11:07,665
If you let me sample you,
171
00:11:07,666 --> 00:11:14,273
I will make it so that directors
will want more orchestral music
172
00:11:14,274 --> 00:11:17,106
and you will actually get
more work out of it
173
00:11:17,107 --> 00:11:20,537
because I'm going to be able to present
something where they go,
174
00:11:20,538 --> 00:11:23,362
'Wow! Orchestra!
Orchestra is cool'", right?
175
00:11:23,363 --> 00:11:27,400
Because there was actually a time where
orchestra was thought of as not cool.
176
00:11:27,501 --> 00:11:31,447
And that's pretty much...
Actually, it worked out better than that
177
00:11:31,448 --> 00:11:36,619
because it meant that the people
who started here as assistants,
178
00:11:36,620 --> 00:11:42,779
like Harry Gregson-Williams,
or Ramin Djawadi, or John Powell, etc.,
179
00:11:42,980 --> 00:11:47,129
had access to the same tools
that I had access to
180
00:11:47,130 --> 00:11:50,467
and could sound just as fabulous
or whatever,
181
00:11:50,468 --> 00:11:52,974
as grand as my samples sounded,
182
00:11:52,975 --> 00:11:59,195
and then get jobs and go and use
real orchestras to record them with.
183
00:11:59,196 --> 00:12:02,262
But yes, I was always a good programmer.
184
00:12:02,263 --> 00:12:04,418
I mean, I started out as a programmer.
185
00:12:04,419 --> 00:12:09,429
You know, I'm definitely a better
programmer than I am a player.
186
00:12:09,430 --> 00:12:12,901
If you ask me honestly
what my instrument is,
187
00:12:12,902 --> 00:12:15,528
I will tell you it's the computer.
188
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:24,250
You need to protect the orchestras
because if the orchestras go away, pfff!
189
00:12:24,251 --> 00:12:30,329
You know, it's going to be
a huge cultural shift in a bad way.
190
00:12:30,330 --> 00:12:36,989
And I think the first thing you need to do
is you need to stop thinking of them
191
00:12:36,990 --> 00:12:39,620
in these catch-phrases, "the orchestra."
192
00:12:39,621 --> 00:12:42,440
For instance, let's
just talk about strings.
193
00:12:42,641 --> 00:12:49,791
You need to think of the string section
as individuals that come together
194
00:12:49,792 --> 00:12:52,196
and give you their everything
195
00:12:52,197 --> 00:12:55,784
and so you need to go
and pick each individual player
196
00:12:55,785 --> 00:13:00,414
because each individual player's
technique, the sound of their instrument,
197
00:13:00,415 --> 00:13:04,035
I mean, you know, if you go to London
or if you go to Paris,
198
00:13:04,036 --> 00:13:06,421
if you go to Berlin, blah, blah, blah,
199
00:13:06,422 --> 00:13:08,890
they will have different
quality instruments.
200
00:13:08,891 --> 00:13:11,070
They will have
different-sounding instruments.
201
00:13:11,071 --> 00:13:17,362
I mean, guitarists go mad about
pickups and strings and amps, etc.
202
00:13:17,363 --> 00:13:19,639
And that's just one guitarist.
203
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,540
You should treat every member
of the orchestra the same way,
204
00:13:22,541 --> 00:13:24,890
and you should treat
the orchestras the same way.
205
00:13:25,091 --> 00:13:30,702
I will write very differently
stylistically here in America
206
00:13:30,703 --> 00:13:32,955
because I have
a different room to record in
207
00:13:32,956 --> 00:13:35,340
with different players
with different instruments
208
00:13:35,341 --> 00:13:39,031
than I will write for somebody in London
or somebody in Paris
209
00:13:39,032 --> 00:13:41,605
or somebody in Vienna,
210
00:13:42,614 --> 00:13:47,999
because, just like anything,
study who the individuals are,
211
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,100
that are actually going to make
this performance.
212
00:13:51,101 --> 00:13:55,868
There are constantly reasons why
music shifts, and part of it is just...
213
00:13:56,269 --> 00:14:00,380
There are "new" interesting players.
There are "new" interesting orchestras.
214
00:14:00,381 --> 00:14:03,799
There are new interesting spaces
to record in.
215
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:10,052
So at the end of the day, it's not about
the technology so much, as opposed to,
216
00:14:10,224 --> 00:14:14,558
there are constantly new young players
that have an amazing tone
217
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,681
that you want to capture,
that you want to work with.
218
00:14:18,623 --> 00:14:24,209
You know, look, right now there's stuff
coming out of Berlin or out of Iceland
219
00:14:24,210 --> 00:14:25,981
which sounds completely different
220
00:14:25,982 --> 00:14:29,239
to anything that's coming out
of America or out of London.
221
00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:35,129
And the sound is created by the
individuals, and they are very different.
222
00:14:35,130 --> 00:14:40,206
And when I write a cello line,
I know who I write it for,
223
00:14:40,207 --> 00:14:44,494
and literally as I program, as I write it,
I see that person in front of me,
224
00:14:44,495 --> 00:14:48,210
so I'm going to write something
which is very much with them in mind.
225
00:14:48,211 --> 00:14:53,548
So I always write... It's like a constant
conversation I have with each player.
226
00:15:17,150 --> 00:15:20,751
I used to, I used to. But I stopped going
227
00:15:20,752 --> 00:15:23,825
when Chris Nolan sort of was taking over
228
00:15:23,826 --> 00:15:28,935
because I know Ron Howard
or any of the directors I work with,
229
00:15:28,936 --> 00:15:32,040
I know they're going to protect
my music better than I do.
230
00:15:32,041 --> 00:15:35,141
I'm usually the one sitting
on the dub stage going,
231
00:15:35,142 --> 00:15:37,951
"Turn it down, it's too loud."
232
00:15:37,952 --> 00:15:40,835
Because I'm still trying to hide
a little bit,
233
00:15:40,836 --> 00:15:43,524
because it's never quite finished.
234
00:15:43,525 --> 00:15:45,700
You know, nothing is ever perfect.
235
00:15:45,701 --> 00:15:48,204
So, you know,
236
00:15:48,205 --> 00:15:50,533
I always think the music
is too loud, but no,
237
00:15:50,534 --> 00:15:52,695
I mean, it's like,
238
00:15:52,696 --> 00:16:01,108
once it leaves here,
I give it to the other team,
239
00:16:01,109 --> 00:16:04,200
and I expect them to treat it kindly
240
00:16:04,201 --> 00:16:06,347
and to treat it with respect
241
00:16:07,051 --> 00:16:09,977
and work very hard at making it work.
22230
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