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[calm music]

[Nathan] This is Colorado Matters from CPR News.

I am Nathan Heffel.

We first spoke with our next guest, Ben Jenkins, about a month ago.

At the time he was getting ready to take a step 500 miles

worth of steps actually back in time on the Colorado Trail.

Jenkins is a history buff.

His hope was to reenact the trip a merchant might have made in the 1860s

and he would wear clothes and use camping equipment from that era.

He told us about his careful research, talked about the clothes he made by hand

and only once hedged his bet.

[Ben] Fingers crossed we don't have to stop the Trail.

But just based on the fact that this has never been done before in this manner,

there are a lot of things that we really don't know-

we don't actually know what's gonna happen out there.

[Nathan] Well, Jenkins and his partner Aaron Klass

have stopped their hike several times, in fact.

They have been home in the Denver area more than a week

while they do kind of a reset on the trip entirely.

Ben, welcome back.

Thanks so much for having me back.

So, after all the planning and the work he put into planning this 500-mile journey,

how disappointed are you with what's happened so far?

[motivational music]

All right.

-Say hey! -Hey, Elly.

All right, let me load up my gear.

I wanna lay my coat down.

Puppies, come here.

Just in case you don't understand, I don't think Charlie does,

I'm not gonna see you guys for a long, long time.

-But when I come back it's treats for everyone. -[laughing]

[Aaron] Yeah, looks great.

[chatting]

[Ben] Yeah, even this morning waking up and getting in the car and loading up the packs and

saying the goodbyes, it all kind of felt like another day hike that Aaron and I go out and do.

And then to actually then get here,

having been here before

and kind of knowing what at least the next few miles is like,

there's something about it that feels real.

[Aaron] Feels great.

I'm looking forward to getting walking.

I've been really restless for the last couple of days.

So I'm looking forward to being on my feet for a while.

[Ben] I'd like to lie and say that I knew what's gonna happen

from this point forward but I'm not real sure.

It's all part of the adventure is not really knowing.

And when something does happen kind of taking it for what it is

and rolling with it and trying to make it work.

For me that's what these guys did, so that's kind of be counterproductive for us

not to try to work through that.

[Aaron] Really the cold and wet are gonna be our biggest, biggest enemies definitely.

There are couple of dry sections around, like,

concerned about water but will acclimate to that pretty quickly, I imagine.

Being away from my phone for a month is gonna be really good for me, I think.

Ben and I get along just fine and it will be nice to have,

you know, a little introspective time.

[motivational music]

There is a lot of things you can do to me that I will tolerate.

Having something just hanging on my teeth that I can't get out,

it's like the worst thing on Earth, man.

-Don't wanna use that? -I can try.

Yeah, just change your-- change your habits, you know.

Even if you still ate the same way, you got out and you moved, you walked five miles a day,

you'd lose 20-- still lose 20 pounds.

[Aaron] Oh, yeah, no doubt.

-[Ben] You have to be consistent with that. -[Aaron] No doubt, you know.

[water running]

Awesome. Well, we'll see you guys then.

Yeah, I'm stoked you guys are doing this-

You're hot.

-I am hot. -You're starting at 9:45.

Yeah, it was-- it's pretty warm.

-Let them dry out for a few minutes... -Yeah.

--and then put on the clean socks. Let these ones fully dry.

Yeah, it's not a bad idea.

♪♪♪

Although my feet are staying dry, my feet are getting-- socks are getting so full of dirt

and grime that it's like-- it's literally grime and, I mean my feet are smooth.

Yeah, these pickles are like lifeblood to me.

Feels like I'm eating Gatorade.

[bird chirping]

We're fucking idiots.

Yeah.

-That's a very good idea. -Just help me.

Oh, fuck.

♪♪♪

[Ben] Getting up, you know, before the sun and shivering while we packed up our-

our gear and then doing the first two miles by lantern light was very cool.

Just based off the fact that we have limited water capacity, we're gonna try to get

as this far into it as we can while it's still cool and before the sun comes up.

By about noon, I'm guessing it'll reach the 90s.

So we're just trying to make the biggest dent in today as we can.

It was a very, very long night. It's really cold.

I can't believe I'm saying it when I'm actually pretty excited to get moving.

I'm pretty-- I'm pretty cold.

We're gonna get moving.

Cool.

[Aaron] Day two was long, hot, dry, exposed.

[Ben] The first half of section two is in an old burn area.

So it's dry.

There's no water for almost 11 miles, no trees, nothing but sun.

It was very, very hot and it was pretty brutal.

All right then.

Having to dry my feet like every two miles

and it's just fucking up my ability to keep a pace.

Oddly enough, by using the Colorado Trail as like a kind of a conduit

to properly express this thing we had in our head,

it's actually... looks like it's gonna turn out to be our worst enemy.

I think being out here and realizing like am I truly experiencing

what these guys are experiencing? And the answer to that as I have got in,

you know, almost 30 miles is maybe not.

So that's-- that's just a big question that's kind of sitting inside my head

and kind of lingering.

So, yeah, who knows?

[woodpecker tapping]

Woodpecker.

It's kind of crazy.

A few funny looks, but mostly people have been really kind and supportive

and have shown interest and-- and been genuine about wanting to learn about the period

and sort of see what their predecessors were using.

You know it's nice that it's a crowd that's enthused by outdoorsmanship

and this is kind of a cool forum to share what we've learned about,

the sort of early period at North American mountaineering.

It's so dirty. You are really gross.

It should help.

The-- one of the shoulder straps popped in one of the rivets,

so I just have it slung across me right now, pull it off, you can see it.

Uh. Oh! This is homie.

If this kind of stuff would have happened to us, we would have stopped in Breckenridge.

-Yeah. -And we would have stayed there for a while.

-Right. -We would have got a hotel and we would have got syphilis.

Yeah.

-Yeah. -It's just the way it works.

-So, but anyway-- -Can we still get syphilis?

At least there's something exciting going on.

-I got this little guy but it doesn't hurt too bad. -Oh! Oh, yeah.

This guy's open, has been since the first day.

This guy is opening up.

Yeah.

I mean, I think I'm just gonna have to call it quits on the boots.

-Yeah, yeah, you seem to be hauling. -Nothing.

-And, honestly, I think it's the weight more than like- -I think it's the weight-

-and the breathing. -and the fact that my feet never get hot.

Yeah.

[Ben] Food has been a lot better than I thought, mostly because I haven't been eating much.

So I had to down a lot of it.

These first couple of days as your body kind of adjusted the heat and the constant movement,

you-- you tend to lose your appetite a bit.

But the foods we have been eating are a lot of dried and dehydrated foods,

foods that would have been incredibly common in Colorado in 1860.

Jerkies, dried meats, dried fruits and vegetables, dehydrated soups.

I've been doing a lot of like jerky and salted corn nuts so that I have some salt on board

just because we've been doing these long hot sections and I'm sweating up a storm.

I-- we-- we already went through our first jar of pickles and I am missing those dearly.

I slept better-- yeah, woke up this morning about probably about 5 o'clock, 5:30,

got a fire started, warming myself up really good.

And then just lied down here, just-- just the blanket over me and I conked out like that.

I was out for like an hour, an hour or 15 minutes or so.

-It's so great. -Yeah.

That's about how a good sleep I got last night.

I feel good this morning though.

I'm tired but body feels good.

-Feet feel good. -That's good.

Smells about right.

[coughing]

Other than that I think I'm packed up.

♪ It's a perfect day For the road ♪

♪ The blue sky Will take us home ♪

♪ We'll take it easy We'll take it slow ♪

♪ It's a good day for the road

♪ And time goes so fast

[man] Are you hiking with gear from the 1800s or something?

[Aaron] Yeah, we're doing the 1860s.

-[Aaron] Yeah. -[man] 1860.

[Aaron] It's-- it has its ups and downs.

-[Ben] These boots are the downs, let me tell you. -[Aaron] Yeah, that's good.

[man] I have the same boots.

[Aaron] Huge through hikes are really a modern mountaineering trend

and these guys were not doing huge distances like this without pack animals.

[Ben+ Almost everything you read through, whether it's newspaper articles or letters or diaries

or whatever, there's usually a mention of the mule or-- or the ox or whatever.

And we're not doing that, and I think that that's posed the biggest challenge

is that we're carrying far more than these guys would have had to rely on themselves to carry.

Ben's hauling, but I think he is fueled by misery.

[chuckles]

Aaron is having a good bit of foot problem.

He decided to wear his boots, and so not only are they hot

but they're keeping his feet really wet,

which has caused a lot of issues with blisters and stuff like that.

So, he's trailing behind.

He's probably easily a good mile behind me,

a good hour, hour and a half behind me, give or take.

So, yeah, I'm hoping that once we get the shoe issue figured out

that things will move a little quicker.

[Ben] How are your feet doing?

[Aaron] I was actually thinking about it and I don't think I got a single step

in today that wasn't painful.

Well, if it makes you feel any better,

which it's not, I got my first real blister on this end stretch.

-Oh, yeah? -Yeah.

-You gonna be okay? -[laughing]

[Ben] I hope so.

I may-- it may put me out.

-We know we did 43 miles in two and a half days- - Yeah.

-which is pretty beastly in our quest. -That's fun.

My only fear is that the mountains just get higher and higher.

[Ben] I think there's a lot of people on the trail this year.

[woman] I was gonna say I didn't realize how populated this was.

[Aaron] Very poplar thing.

[Ben] This is-- according to the Colorado Trail Foundation,

they are-- they're thinking this is gonna be their most populated year to date.

-[man] Oh really? Oh, that's a... -[Ben] It was-- oh my God,

it was insane those first couple of days.

I took the inner tie straps off your pack, did you notice that?

Because they were getting in my way and-

I just replaced them with some cordage.

[Ben] Oh. Okay, never mind.

I figured you noticed that. You look so dandy in those shoes.

-[Aaron] Thank you. -Yeah.

I'm not used to wearing shoes anymore.

-[Ben] Me, I'm-- -[Aaron] I haven't worn shoes to an event in years.

You know I wear boots all the time, I'm a boots guy

and so I've just now gotten used to these.

[Nathan] And the trail crosses the mountains from Denver to Durango.

The average elevation is 10,000 feet.

The director of the Colorado Trail Foundation Bill Manning estimates only about half

of the people who plan on making it 500 miles actually succeed

and they're in modern gear and some of them make it-- they actually take it in segments.

But you were planning to do the entire thing.

[Ben] Yeah. Maybe that was a little ambitious.

[Nathan] So was it ever doable? I guess that's the question.

[Ben] Damn shoes.

[Aaron] I'm looking forward to walking in them.

Probably more than six pounds lighter.

Probably six pounds lighter in the pack and then another five pounds lighter in shoes.

You want to sign the log in?

[Ben] 7/11/1860.

Perfect.

♪♪♪

[water running]

So that's three miles.

-That's three miles? -[man] You're joking.

If that's Guernsey Creek, it's three miles now.

Jesus Christ, Shit. That was a faster move. That's it.

Yeah, dude, we are-- that's-- we are making-

[man] Your new shoes are working out well?

Yeah, seriously, I'm much, much more comfortable.

It's much more comfortable.

-You feel good? -Lead on.

-All right? -Yeah.

[Ben] --from her collection.

The wedding handkerchief of Fanny Chamberlain.

-[woman] Eight forty. -[Ben] Thank you.

-[Ben] Wow. Really? -[woman] Mm-Hm.

-Eight forty? -[man] Yeah.

-[Ben] I feel good though, man. -Me, too.

-[Ben] I don't feel like I'm rushing at all. -Nah. Feels good.

-Chocolates, legal? -Yeah.

[woman chuckles]

Yeah, chocolates are legal.

[Aaron] They are comfy.

I'm sweating into my socks, but they're breathing.

[Ben] Your canteen getting less shiny now? Blinding you every once in a blue moon?

[Aaron] I think so.

A little less shiny, little patina.

♪♪♪

[water running]

They're like three times as dry as they would have been.

They are-- yeah, it's the shoes are making all the difference.

[Aaron] Lean over here.

[Ben] Get a little in groove.

Looks like this is the last water for-- last good reliable water for about five miles.

I am losing the weight inching up on already, man,

inching up on being able to push the stretch in my belt.

True.

I think I'll almost get to the other notch I didn't think I'll get to till halfway.

-And my shirt is holding my pants up on this-- it's belted. -I know.

Your pants are already a little big on you and you lost some weight.

[Aaron] I know.

[Ben] Hey.

That's incredible, man, the view.

It is amazing.

[man] Both ways.

I guess it's kind of pretty up here.

This has been about a six-and-a-half mile uphill.

It's been gradual but it's still been exhausting.

So, it will be nice to get a little downhill.

There's a really good chance Aaron and I may even get a good 20-mile day in today.

Oh, man, seriously, my feet are having a chance to dry.

I don't have hot spots, I'm not raising blisters.

It's really-- it's really something.

It also reduced a solid six pounds off my load just 'cause those boots are so heavy.

So this is making all the difference. I'm fine.

That's a big fire.

[Ben] Once we get out of segment 10, there may be a push toward the end of segment 10,

maybe getting some smoke and then have to skip over 11 and 12,

pick back up the Silver Creek Trailhead.

♪♪♪

[Ben] Today's really beautiful, too, it's like long and it kind of drove a little bit

towards the end but I think it's because we knew we were gonna be getting like into Breckenridge.

So, but, yeah, last night was really bad.

I was like eight hours of shivering and to the point where I almost got up in the night

and started hiking.

This morning it was like-- what, how many miles do you think that was?

Three and a half, four miles of just straight up, like-- up like the second we left.

-I think it was just two but it was at thousand feet-- Wow. -I felt like four.

-you know so. -[man] Yeah.

All these every single campsite 10.3, 10.4, 12, 11.6-

[Aaron] Yeah, you are not gonna be anymore.

♪♪♪

What? I do not, unfortunately.

-I'm just hungry. -Let's just eat here.

That seems fair.

-[man] What's up? -Ben died.

[all chuckle]

We-- we had a rough couple of nights the last-- the last--

well, he had a rough night last night in particular.

He's been having a hard time keeping warm in the evenings.

His blanket's just not thick enough.

I think it's most of the problem.

I think he hasn't been getting any sleep at all.

So-- so today we sent him home.

He's gonna procure a blanket as fast as he can.

I'm gonna stick around here for a couple of days, take a couple of zeros, do some day hikes.

On days where I don't feel like taking zeros and see how fast we can get him back out here.

And doing it this way means he's got some motivation to come back out,

he won't leave me in the woods, you know.

♪ Tomorrow's never promised

♪ But now is the time

♪ For hopes arising

♪ Tomorrow's never promised

♪ But now is the time

♪ For change that starts today

♪ Whoa

I pulled the shelter off mine-- off me and I got swarmed like immediately.

So I put it back over me and slept for a couple more hours.

I'm gonna walk, I'm gonna walk as much as I can. I'm gonna try.

I'm gonna go see Camp Hale, is down this way where the 10th Mountain did their training

for the Second World War.

Segment 9 runs that way.

And I'll have to walk on my old Segment 9 every day to get water.

So I'll probably do a couple, you know, long roundabout day hikes there too.

So, hopefully, I'll just, you know, keep-- keep racking up the miles, that's why I am out here,

you know, is to just hike as much as I can.

I'm excited to have tons of food, way too much food, so I'm looking forward to

offering some trail magic to people and meeting a few through hikers also.

It'll be a good time definitely.

I'm, yeah, looking forward to relaxing a couple of days.

♪♪♪

These are pretty typical of the late 1870s, 1880s in terms of manufacture.

The felling ax here is hand forged and was--

Ben suggested probably made in the 1850s, 1860s,

but it certainly wasn't brought to the area until the 1880s.

I found it in the mining camp over there.

And then all of this is a railroad grade and every 15, 20 feet there are railroad spikes.

So they pulled the tracks but left-- left the spikes and they are littered all along.

Also found bits of mason jars in purple and blue, which are colors that are pretty typical

of the latter half of the 19th century.

So, some-- some archeology while I was occupied here.

Felling ax was a cool find.

Never found anything like that quite-- quite like that in the Rockies.

So, yeah, that was exciting for me.

Mosquitoes are in the fire pit.

They're staring at me.

I killed some with my knife.

-[Ben] That sounds pretty brutal. -There were so many.

-[Ben] You just-- -Yeah.

-Yeah. -Yeah, that doesn't sound too...

Killed one with the edge of my knife.

I'm not sure I would expect a good night's rest but-

-A night's rest. -A night's rest.

Yeah.

I'll take-- I'll take that. I am-- at this point I'm-- a night's rest would be-

would be good enough for me.

Eliminate the soups and stuff from the things

-and we'll just add in maybe some extra jerky and... - All right.

-...stuff just to-- -Yeah, yeah, I guess.

So I was able to get my hands on a blanket, a much warmer blanket,

and we also were able to kind of have a few safety nets for warmth

that we were able to keep in our kits.

I had the opportunity, I just was left with a little surplus of food here, so

I passed out some-- some Trail Magic to folks and got a chance

to support a few people and talk a little bit more about what it is that we're doing.

So it was a-- that was a cool experience.

Oh my God, my forehead is brutally bitten.

I can imagine I'll get chilly tonight but I definitely feel like this is going to make-

[Aaron] Yeah, I'm curious to see how you do.

So I got about good, really good, two hours of sleep last night.

Okay.

-Again, improvement. -[both chuckle]

All right, yeah, two dinners, it should do it.

I don't know, working the flat weight.

-[Ben] Oh my God, there is enough of it. -[Aaron] Yeah.

-Yeah. Good deal. -So, I think...

-[Aaron] Do you have a bag of jerky for yourself? -[Ben] I do, yeah.

-I have a whole bag of jerky. -[Aaron] Yeah.

Got a couple of muffins here if you guys want.

They're flacks and things, right along.

I am pretty good, man.

I feel pretty good about the next days food-wise.

I mean it's gonna be bland, but that is what it is.

I'm okay with that.

[Aaron] All right. Here's water.

Oh, beautiful.

[Ben] Yeah, looks like I can't walk.

It's a nice little gradual climb.

Yeah, not too bad.

[Ben] Packs, going down in weight.

We got so used to lighter pack and then I just added all that weight, too, it's killing me.

I'm sure a mosquito is stuck in there.

[Aaron] They're awful. They're awful.

[Ben] So for the first time

Aaron and I are gonna be crossing into a wilderness section.

In 1964 a federal act was passed that protected a lot of these areas.

There's nothing mechanized allowed inside of the area.

Getting film permits for these sections was incredibly difficult.

I think we passed through six or seven wilderness sections.

I'm not a hundred percent certain.

Unfortunately, we're gonna have to omit filming in any of those sections,

which is very unfortunate because they are some of the most pristine

untouched areas in the country.

Because there's nothing mechanized we're not gonna run into bikes.

We're at a point in the trail where we're running into few

and fewer day hikers and through hikers.

I'm looking forward to less noise pollution, noise and light pollution in these sections.

You know, no matter where you go in the Rockies, there is a road close by.

So, up until now we've definitely had a lot of ambient,

you know, motor vehicle noise that I'm looking forward to escaping.

We will still have airplanes and things like that

but I expect there to be very little ambient light and that's--

that's gonna be something that's gonna really help pull us out

of this period and back into the-- the '60s.

♪♪♪

[Aaron] It was nice going through those wilderness sections.

The Holy Cross Wilderness in particular was just stunningly beautiful.

You know long steep climbs but totally worth it.

And we passed maybe 10 people on the first mile of the wilderness

and then didn't see a soul for the rest of it.

We ended up doing about 20, a little over 20-mile-day yesterday.

So we were able to get a room in a local's home.

We each had our own bed.

We were able to get a shower and a hot meal and we were able to wake up this morning

in beautiful Twin Lakes and we were ecstatic.

Because of the fire ban that's currently in place across the entire Colorado Trail,

Aaron and I have now had to completely eliminate campfires

and so we can't have hot meals now.

And it was definitely a morale booster, I think, for both of us.

We were-- we woke up this morning feeling like a million bucks.

Great to have a hot meal.

I ate a bunch of pasta and some of Ben's steak and I'm ready to- ready to start walking for sure.

Awesome, yeah.

[man] Mine looks very similar.

-Does it? -[man] Same function.

-Do you know which model it is? -[man] I could give it, it's just-

I-- I can tell you about it, absolutely.

Very nice.

-Do you know anything about it? -[man] Came with the family cabin that we had in Wisconsin.

No shit. This is a Remington Army revolver in .44 caliber.

The model is 1858.

They were manufactured from 1863 up until about 1873.

[guitar playing]

So, we had some period maps from the trail.

-[man] Yeah. -The trail-- it's all the scalings using the original map.

So, if any of you feel like there is anybody-

anybody in general who wants to take one, they are free to have one.

Now depending on the year, this state was technically Texas, right?

-[Ben] It was technically Kansas-Utah. -Kansas.

[Ben] Kansas-Utah territory.

So, it wouldn't become the Colorado territory until, what, '60? '61.

I don't know if you can see on the-- all this.

I got like-- I stopped for water once yesterday, got like 14 or 15 bites.

Perfect.

I already stink on the trail, so.

Your shirt is a totally different color now.

-[Aaron] Oh, yeah. -He washed his shirt last night.

♪♪♪

Aaron's got a far more leveled step and so I think he's gonna get far more miles-

It's that barefoot training, man, I'm telling you.

-I thought the-- I thought by now it's much added- -It's the wave of the future.

I have a little bit of a bow leg and so because it's gravel, so-- so it's rough and it's like-

it literally is like sandpaper to these leather soles, my heel is just rubbed,

I'm now walking at an angle far more than I should be

because every time I take a step now it's like rolling my ankle like naturally.

So, the good news is if somebody's not bowlegged like me,

they could easily get 150, 200 miles solid.

-They weren't as big of trash as I think they're made out to be. -Yeah.

Because my biggest-- my actual concern with these was not the leather or the soles,

it was actually that the canvas is gonna start busting because, I mean we're-

we're constantly slamming into rocks and I don't even have as much as a snag on these.

They're dirty but that's about it.

Yeah, I'm really happy with them.

-Let's go find a little shade. -Yeah.

-[Ben] But they seem to be so gross. -[Aaron] I know.

[Ben] So hot.

-It was pretty quick. -Yeah, we had food for a while.

Why'd you let me get an egg sandwich, man?

[Aaron] You told me what you wanted.

Ugh!

It's like grandma used to make. I didn't like it then.

[Aaron] In fact, grandma made that sandwich.

[chuckles]

Need a knife to take some of that off?

[Ben] Some of that's just-- it's like dropping it in cat hair.

There's just no saving it.

It's hot today, man.

-This is the hottest day we've had since we started. -[Aaron] Yeah, easily.

-The last couple of days have been easily- -[Aaron] Very comfortable.

-Easily in the mid-60s. -Yeah.

-Today it's might be in the 80s. -Exactly.

Yeah.

Going up on 90.

-No breeze on the first hundred either. -No.

It's nice standing on the breeze here for a minute.

All right, man.

Did me well.

He got some serious distance out of us.

-Yeah. -We're not expected.

As most as I would've liked but--

-How are we doing? -Yeah, right on time.

[Ben] Busted hole in there.

This last few little bit was gnarly, man.

It's all sand today.

The sole flared again.

-Yeah? -[Aaron] Yeah, it's lanced, so it's nasty.

Never had a blister quite like this.

First socks.

I know I can't wait to put-- I'm just letting my feet air up for a minute.

I'm not gonna put them on until I have to.

My toes are swollen up. This one, here. What if I broke it or something? Ow!

It must have been really hurting me.

-Oh, has it? -Yeah.

Ow! They're both like that? Nope.

Wouldn't be surprised like I've got-- if I got a couple of micro fractures.

Oh, man.

So it looks like Wednesday we'll hit the halfway point if we keep on track.

[man] Does it feel like you've been halfway?

Feels like I've been all the way and back.

[man] Think we could do this one more time?

In my head, it's always Segment 1.

That way I'll be pleasantly surprised when it's over.

I still blame Aaron for saying he would go with me.

Because if he wouldn't have said he would have I probably wouldn't have done it.

Two idiots.

-Driving to the backcountry. -[man] That's another good title. Yeah.

[Ben] Wearing nothing but outdated gear that's outdated for a reason.

Will they survive? God, we hope not.

We need to eliminate that part of the gene pool in those two guys.

The trailer it cuts through that old lady.

[imitating old lady's voice] I don't know why they're on the trail making a movie.

It defeats the purpose, [imitates explosion] in theaters.

Oh, yeah.

-I'm moving. -The belt's perfect.

Actually I pulled it back a little tighter.

Did you? Good.

-'Cause, just in case it stretches- -Little stretch.

Realized your shoes are laced totally differently.

Yes.

-[Aaron] Is it bothering you? -Yeah, it will bother me for about the next six seconds

-I'm gonna leave it. -I'm gonna remember that these shoes-

-If I get new shoes, I'll be lacing-- -You'd purposely do it?

[Ben] What's the bad news?

-[Ben] Did you? -[man] Yeah.

-[Ben] Okay. -[man] Good news is breakfast burritos.

-All right. -Fuck.

-It'll work for now. Yeah. -Goddamn. Thank you.

[man] The mediocre news is either hop into town trying to get a resupply

or I can leave you with the food I have tonight then pop out tomorrow with the resupply.

I'm kind of indifferent.

[man] Figured you've run through everything since I was along.

-Oh, yeah, we have literally nothing. -We have nothing.

When I say nothing, we have-- I have like two small pieces of pineapple and that's it.

-[man] Yeah. -This is--

-[Aaron] Thank you. -[man] No problem.

-Thank you. -I figure so everything is still a fire band, so.

[Ben] Aaron's blister between his toes on his other foot were fucking gnarly.

[Aaron] Yeah, let me show you the other one.

[Aaron] I managed to pop this guy, which helped quite a bit,

and then this guy. This guy popped a few days ago, hasn't been bothering me so much.

Me and my feet are getting tore up.

We wake up in the morning and we start walking and our feet feel like we've just walked 23 miles.

-So I think-- -[man] So you're going back to boots?

I think he's gonna try the boots.

[Ben] This terrain is just-- it is something else, man.

It's not meant for this.

It's day 14th for me.

-And you? -I forgot.

I started-- I totally forgot because I started earlier than a lot of people on 28th of June

and then I took my time through it.

I got lost for two days in Segment 3.

I saw a post on WhiteBlaze and it was, apparently, Ben.

And then I made the connection yesterday when I saw him, I'm like, "Oh, they're not Amish,

these guys-- these guys are actually the old-timey dudes."

It's mind-blowing really considering like we're- -we're complaining and-

and hurt and out here wearing modern technology and stuff

and they are trudging on with all their old school gear and getting it done just as well so.

It's been-- it's been really interesting to me to see your gear because-

well, besides the shoe, shoes are different, but for the most part

a lot of this stuff I have, this kind of have ultra light cutting-edge

technologies Cuben fiber, silnylon, the whole bit, you know, high fill power down.

The designs are very similar, you know.

Y'all's tent is a catenary cut.

Catenary cuts are still in production in all the major tarp or tent-making companies today.

So it's-- there's actually a lot of similarities between the gear.

Yeah, you must have had no idea because with shoes like that like that's insane, man.

And you're packed like you're it's still lighter than mine.

I definitely over-pack.

Every time I see-- I mean just all the gear you have and everything is very, very smart.

For my next trip, you know, to pack lighter and definitely and pack more useful stuff, I guess.

Take care of your feet with, man.

-[Aaron] I'm gonna do my best. -Thanks.

-Yeah. -[man] Good luck with everything.

Aaron is probably the one who is, I think, struggling with the things.

-With the-- with the feet? -With his feet, yeah.

Mine hurt like hell but he's-- I think he's like in genuine pain.

Yeah.

All right.

-But take care of yourself, man. -Yeah.

He was talking about getting some moccasins.

-And I hope-- -Yeah, you know-

-And then the guy is not getting back from- -Yeah, so he got back

-to him once, he's like, oh yeah, I can do them and- -That was it.

-That was it. -Yeah.

That was the last of it. So, well, go get yourself some food, man.

Enjoy yourselves.

-All right, cool. -Good luck.

[Ben] And they are really pretty soft shoes, to begin with.

I'd broken them in about 15 miles before we started.

And they breathe better than the other boots do when I-

especially when I pull the trousers over them.

So, let me see here.

Oh man, fuck.

Now I'm getting shooting nerve pains up my legs every time I take a step.

It's revolutionary right now.

Really enjoying it.

-Will you stay in boots till the end? -I mean we'll see.

I'm curious to see how these are doing at the end of the day.

But I'll have to just-- just get there.

I got 14 miles to figure it out.

[Nathan] I want to talk more about the history of the Colorado Trail.

It's an issue for listeners.

They pointed out after we last spoke was that you focused on the 1860s

and white people on the trail when at this time Native Americans

were being displaced from their land and there was a lot of conflict.

In that era, would you've encountered lots of Native Americans on the trail?

[Aaron] Our plan when we came out here was to portray businessman

seeking Indian villages in the Rockies to set up business deals, trade deals.

And the Ute would have been all through the route of the Colorado Trail and elsewhere.

They were all up and down the Front Range.

On the Plains, you would have seen Cheyenne-Arapaho, different bands of Apaches, Crow, Kiowa.

In 1864, there were a series of major Indian troubles.

The white government raised Indian fighting regiments

and mostly the Cheyenne but also the Arapaho and went to war.

And that culminated in the Sand Creek Massacre,

200 Cheyenne-Arapaho were murdered by cavalry from Colorado.

And most of those folks were displaced to Oklahoma.

Pretty much the Cheyenne-Arapaho especially have been totally displaced from Colorado.

There are still Ute who live here.

You know it's important to remember that these communities are not dead

they're still around.

We're definitely aware of the lack of Indians out here.

It's something that I think just as white people colonizers having fun in the wilderness,

it's-- it's important to remember whose land this actually is and was.

[man] If you're ready and willing.

-You're willing? -I'm willing.

-[man] You're willing to-- -I'm willing.

It's just 14 miles.

It's nothing.

The second shortest day of the trip mile-wise.

Very hot set.

I could use some water.

If it weren't for the heat, we'll miss a bath.

Our last few days just can't get enough water on me, man.

No matter how hard I try.

It's like I can fill up and I still-- I still don't feel like I'm getting enough.

Yeah, definitely not.

-The road walk is over, though. Man, I can't-- -Seriously.

Seriously.

Feet are feeling better.

Still-- still aching but they feel better.

Yeah.

[Ben] I'm sweating and the fact that my feet really haven't been able to dry out much.

[Aaron] They're doing okay. They're doing okay.

I'm just trying to take every opportunity I can to dry them out, you know,

and let them rest, get blood flowing just to try to prevent more issues from coming up.

But the nerve pain seems to have abated at least. So I'm-- I'm happy about that.

It's gross.

I wonder if I could just like brain tan it and make it into a moccasin.

Get enough blisters, maybe I can.

Talk about a different kind of conditioning,

a different kind of pain conditioning involved also

and their feet were just a different shape from ours, you know.

But these guys would have grown up, you know, running 20 miles a day and barefoot the whole time.

That's just kind of how children were raised.

So, obviously, there were cultural differences between the-

the socio-economic classes but, you know, poor kids would kind of get let loose all day.

So, their feet were tough, their bodies were fit

and they never really lost that conditioning just because their--

their livelihoods depended on their ability to,

you know, move and hunt and put food on the table.

All right.

Can't see if there are any other flowers but that's all I see.

♪♪♪

-[man] It's happening? -Well,

oh, yeah.

-[Aaron] Want me to knock it out? -No.

Man.

Well, I had a root canal.

It didn't take.

And so right before I came out here, he attempted to redo the root canal

and he still couldn't get it. So he put just this temporary crown on there.

And the problem is that there's very little of the tooth left

because I've gone through two root canals.

And I'm just really worried about that crown breaking,

I'm already having trouble with it, I think it's already infected.

Luckily, I had medicine but still that's gonna kill me, man.

Some antibiotics just in case I was out here and this happened, so.

Are out here for a week and have to leave before we finish.

That's true.

-I'll watch it. -Think about it.

I'll see how I do eating as well.

I swallowed that whole crown, man.

-Yeah, well. -Yum.

-You'll see that again. -[laughing]

Yeah, I need to let my feet out anywhere.

-I'm getting really bad heat rash. -Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

You got those shoes on way too long.

I'll take that other one.

-Yeah? -Yeah.

Thank you, Sir.

Between my feet, they feel like they got run over by a semi-truck.

Now my tooth, I mean my whole face throbbed, my whole head hurt.

And the fact that they were both just exhausted, we're running on fumes for days.

And I know Aaron well enough to know that it doesn't matter if his feet literally fall off,

he's not gonna stop.

And I just want to try to keep pace with him but it's just he's just moving too slow

which I get it totally understand hundred percent, you know.

Guys weren't really traversing these passes and stuff like the way we're doing

until later on in the '60s and early in the '70s

and footwear had been developed at that point for this specifically.

And there's just no way we were gonna know how rough these shoes were gonna be on her feet

until we actually got out here and we actually started moving

and we actually started realizing that,

you know, the toll-- the biggest toll that's being taken on us is by far our feet.

[Ben] Just tell him it's kind of gotten past the point where it's not even-

this is even more than pestering anyway this is just stupid.

I have been feeling stupid for quite some time.

[birds chirping]

[Ben] I just-

[sighs]

I'm not spending 30--another 30 fucking days out here.

And he wants to, like, do slower days, which I fully understand.

And he wants to try to-- he says we need to take care of ourselves better,

which I fully agree with hundred percent.

There's just no way to do it like this.

There's just no way.

We could drink.

We don't have the capacity to carry more water.

So it means stopping at every stream, drink as much as we could.

We still won't be hydrated enough.

Neither one of our packs have the capacity to carry nearly the amount of food we need.

We can literally carry nothing but Snicker bars and we still wouldn't have enough

calorie intake for what we'll burn per day.

We've burned six, seven thousand calories a day.

I'm not doing slower days and spending more time going through this yet

over the next-- you know, adding 10 more days. Listen, I'm just not doing it.

This doesn't work for me.

So, we disagreed to disagree and then just to get through today

as a temporary solution to everything, so.

At this point the rate we're going now, by the time we finish,

we're gonna be in modern gear with modern shoes with modern sleeping bags

and we will have just completed through hike as a modern through hiker.

The history part we-- almost kind of abandoned us, not even us abandon it a long time ago.

And now it's just like endurance and strength.

This is like whatever.

It's been a long couple of days.

We can't cook food out here.

If it's cold, we can't even warm ourselves up.

We just have to, you know, barrel through.

If I can make it over this pass today, I think at least I'll feel a little better.

So, hopefully, we only have another mile, mile and a half, I'm guessing.

But who knows.

We're moving so much slower today and yesterday than we have been.

Our sense of mileage is completely shot.

All I know is that I guess I gotta keep walking.

I stopped and slammed a quick leader.

Definitely feel slow today.

You know, I--

Yeah, I don't know, Ben's trucking along, but I can't get him to take care of himself,

I can't get him to drink water or eat food or take his shoes off.

So, you know, it's like, all right.

Today I think he's not drinking enough water.

I tried. You know, I was like, "Drink water."

"No, we can't stay hydrated.

"Yeah, if you're not drinking water, you're not gonna stay hydrated," you know.

I mean, it's-- I understand and I-- I'm feeling it, you know, I'm feeling it, it's fine.

But, yeah, today's hard.

Today's hard for sure.

[Nathan] I want to go back to the director of the Trail Foundation,

Bill Manning, for a minute.

We spoke with him last week and here's what he had to say about your trip.

[Bill] Anybody who's able to hike a couple hundred miles is--

has sure got a reason to be proud.

You know, the entire Colorado Trail involves 89,000 vertical feet of climbing

and his couple of hundred miles, I think is probably over 30,000 vertical feet.

It takes a heck of an effort to do that.

[Nathan] When your equipment was working and you were on a good clip and able to hike,

did it- did it live up to your expectation?

As beautiful as it is, we should probably move off before the storms come in.

This is the last place I want to be if it starts raining.

Me and him talked a good bit. We talked about everything. We talked about the trail itself.

We talked about the experiences we've had.

We've talked about how we're feeling health-wise.

And I-- I can't speak for Aaron although we have spoke about it,

but I think the through hike portion of this is over.

I think regardless of what goes on from here, we both need several days to recoup.

What I learned here was about the physical conditioning that these people

had under their belts from childhood that allowed them to explore these mountains.

It's a totally different kind of conditioning than what we've-- what we've got now.

I was the whole time just experiencing the way that my body was changing.

I've-- you know, I've easily lost 20 pounds and I didn't have 20 pounds to lose.

I think I'm digesting muscle at this point.

Over the course of two weeks, I've-- twice I felt like-- I felt like I was in the period.

I'm not hiking in the gear as a novelty and that's what it's become.

-Well, he's doing 200 miles, a little over 200 miles. -Two hundred and five.

Two hundred and five.

And I just broke 200 miles when I-- right up the road.

As miserable as I feel now, I can't believe I even made it that far.

I do feel accomplished.

I definitely feel accomplished.

You know, I definitely don't feel any reservation

about getting what we got out of this experiment.

The-- the place that we tried to put ourselves physically, the-- the-- the wilderness,

this idea of a Western Frontier exists in the minds of Americans

but it doesn't-- it's not a real place anymore.

You can't wander into the woods and be totally removed.

You have to carefully orchestrate the space in which that happens.

It's about getting out and doing it and that's what I feel like I need to do now.

[Nathan] So after all the planning

and the work you put into planning this 500-mile journey,

how disappointed are you with what's happened so far?

[Aaron] The importance of slowing down and taking it in has definitely stuck with me.

[Ben] I'd convinced myself that wilderness didn't exist because I didn't spend enough time

in those places for them to sink in that they were actually there

'cause I just-- just wanted to push best time and coming back out.

And spending five days in the woods and just taking it and-- and seeing every little rock

I can and every pebble and every tree and every stream and every marmot and every pike

and every bird and every other creature that's out here is-- has been invaluable.

It was a lesson I learned back in 2016 that I, like, I wouldn't change.

[Aaron] When we come out and do things like this, now doing less mileage, taking our time,

having some rest time, some downtime to just take it all in has made a big difference.

And I think that's something that I've taken from the trail in a-- in a very concrete way.

And just trying to be more about enjoying the journey

even when the journey is like the most pain I have ever been in.

[Ben] Emerging comes in in small moments and those small moments you have to absorb them

while they happen, and then they pass on like anything else.

And so my mindset has been to just, you know, take in those moments when they happen,

appreciate them, and then move on.

And I've gotten more out of living history

and more out of just like research and education

by doing it that way.

[Aaron] And I do think there's something to be said for taking action.

Doing the thing, regardless of what it is, regardless of whether you succeed or fail,

failure is gonna outnumber your successes a million to one

no matter what it is that you try to do,

but just do the thing because that's the only way that, like, anyone makes

any kind of progress and also the only way that you grow as a person

is if you just do the thing even if it sucks, especially if it sucks.

Do the thing.

I think that's pretty good. [chuckling]

♪ Is it in your skin Is it in your bones ♪

♪ All your honor undertow

♪ And there it goes The middle road ♪

♪ There goes everything untold

♪ Ooohhh, for the love

♪ Ooohhh for the long

♪ Ooohhh, one by one

♪ Your favorite son

♪ It was Arizona, the 17th

♪ The howl of knowing What's underneath ♪

♪ And I'm so sorry I couldn't speak ♪

♪ So sweet

♪ A symptom of the overrun

♪ A blinder trust The whole lump sum ♪

♪ A warmer room A hallowed flood ♪

♪ A film, a page Of what's to come ♪

♪ Ooohhh, for the love

♪ Ooohhh, for the long run

♪ Ooohhh, one by one Your favorite son ♪

♪ It was Arizona, the 17th

♪ The howl of knowing What's underneath ♪

♪ And I'm so sorry I couldn't speak ♪

♪ I'm so sorry I couldn't speak ♪

♪ I'm so sorry I couldn't speak ♪

♪ So sweet

[music ends]