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hi it's me tim dodd the everyday astronaut rocket lab

of course that's one of my all time favorite

small rocket companies

is working on a lot of really exciting things right now

and I just recently caught up with the ceo and founder

peter it's just back in December

when they were opening up their new launch

buchenwald virginia

but they're still working on a lot of really

cool and exciting things

between then and now

and they have a lot of cool things coming

the rest this year

even though the world's kind of currently on pause

so I got a chance to catch up again with paperback

and ask him more about their crazy

plans to catch a rocket with a helicopter

now if you need to know more about this

how it's physically possible

or why it's never been done I've already done a pretty

in depth video that you could watch

before or after this interview

it's really fascinating stuff

okay on to the interview hey peter how's it going

good thanks to him yourself

good to see you

it sounds like you guys are staying

still pretty busy

considering all the things is going on

you've done quite a bit since the last

time we spoke in

was that December or November November wait

I don't remember the simba I think

justin yeah we haven't decided to see him for you

yeah when you opened up lc2

so what all happened since then

it seems like you guys have done

quite a few things behind the scenes you had another

launch

yeah give us a little

run down a little

update on what rocket lives been up to

yeah so it's been super busy so as you point out

we didn't we did another launch

and it was good to get that one away

for that particular customer

big deal customer that one

and and you know

things things don't slow down

so you know obviously we won the

nasa keystone mission to the moon so

that's a very big project for us

with lunar keystone

so

and sorry the lunar photon stage

so mess of project mess of engineering undertaking

super cool program super cool program

sorry one's the first

stuff for that actually slated as far as

on the calendar

if favorite 2021

oh man that's gonna be awesome

yeah yeah launched out of lc2

that'll be a big deal

it's gonna be fun and what I'll see even working on

yeah and also

fled out on recovery so

we've made some big strides on recovery so

for recovery there's really

I think we've spoken about this before

there's kind of three main pillars of

trickiness and

the first one is

could we

get a stage through the atmosphere in one piece

and

we did that a couple of times in a row which was great

the ['one']millisecond is

can we

reliably catch a stage out of media with helicopter

and the third one is

can we get it under parachutes and slow it down

so we've been beavering away on all three

of those areas

and had some success in some of them

yeah yeah and

I mean I happen to catch this little video of you guys

actually working

on the parachute aspect

and recovering it with the helicopter

how many times if you guys worked on that

what tell me how that's going

has it been pretty exciting if you had any

mishaps that all have been going pretty smooth

now it's gone very very smooth so

we did a test drop with a

dummy stage one

and it was quite the logistical feet actually we had

in the mean we had three helicopters and

two giant boats and also a recovery vessel so

it was quite the flotilla of

aircraft and boats to get this test but we basically

stooged out into the middle of the pacific and

and dropped one test

dropped a test article on one helicopter

at around about 6 000 feet and then

the the other helicopter hit a

hook and catching mechanism

and

it came in behind and

lined up and picked it out of the

middle of the sky

1st try so that was really

you guys made it look pretty easy I mean honestly

I was kind of shocked

that it just goes and it looks like all you have to do

I don't quite get

the grabbing mechanism that grabs onto the actual

the drug shoot there what

is that like some kind of hook or something

or how does it end up it

looks like all I get to do is kind of touch it

and magically is

grabbing onto the line

what's going on there

yeah so it's an aerodynamically stable

shape so we can fly through the air at

reasonable speed and

the rope stays nice and controlled and also

that you know the hooking system

you know retains its stability

and it's pretty it is pretty simple and the fact that

you have your long

tag shoot and drop out behind the main shoot

and then with the hook

the idea is to just touch those touch those two lines

and then once the two lines touch

you just sort of slide up

and

it snags in an arena we mechanism

and then that mechanism

calls on the parachute and deflates the parachute

and you take the weight and away you go

but I have to say to

the pilot I need a pilot made it look super easy and

we're all sitting on you know

out at sea so it's watching it from a vote

and it's just like gee

that doesn't look too bad at all

and so we need landed and

you know

we've been spoke to him

you know I said why

jesus didn't look too bad at all and he was like

oh no I was working for that

so you know he made it look very easy yeah

he was certainly working for and

definitely anyone skilled in their profession

makes really hard

things look really easy and that

pilot just absolutely knocked it out of the park

because it just looks like it's

not a big deal

so I guess the

one of the things that I was wondering about

you show the booster how you know for now

that just that the mock up dummy

which is kind of landed down

on what would be its engine bells

what is the process going to be like

please tell me

please tell me there's gonna be a giant robot

with giant arms and just gonna

grab it out of the sky and lay it down gently

what's your plan to get it safely down

somewhere yeah yeah yeah

well I mean

it depends on how you define a robot

but

no basically it's a jake and

basically a half shelling and

you know the helicopter pilot once it's named it

you have very good control of

actually where it is provided you don't have too many

prevailing with the conditions so you can come in and

just grab it and

make it nice and simple

really so it actually is going to be grabbed onto out

of mid air basically

no not at it well I mean you have to

you know there's the marine platform

with a jig and then come along

and there's a lot of tolerance

in the vertical

and translational plane so you come on and just

have you has that

that little process been practiced already

no but that that is that's not one

I'm worried about it all

it's no different to just long

lining with the helicopter

you know these a really good pilot

you know can can do incredible things you know

with accuracy and long lines

yeah it's not that's not that that's not a tricky one

no that's awesome

that looks really exciting

it looks like you guys have made

a really good progress in that

did anything change

after the second

time you guys have now made it through reentry

did anything

surprise you or anything

changed after from the first reentry going through

to the second did anything changed is

is there any hardware that you've now added

after the first

two that you're preparing now for your 3rd time

just give me a rundown on what kind of at there

sure sure

so flight 17 is where we're targeting or build

17 is we're targeting

the parachute system to fly on

so build seven teens well down the

well down the production line now

and we're qualifying a lot of the systems

so

we look every time you re into something like that you

learn a lot but I guess we didn't learn enough between

the two flights to warrant continually doing it

which was a discussion point about the team as you know

should we just continually rely these

recovery systems

and basically

until we get some parachutes under it and really

get it back and see what we've got

it's not you know it's not pointless but

it's extra data but it's not

not valuable enough to warrant

the era planes with arab systems

you know out in the middle of the pacific

and all the logistics that go along with

tracking a stage down

yeah so in other words

just to reiterate

because it's kind of hard to hear you sometimes

but just to reiterate basically you're thinking now

stop trying to solve the full problem and

you're going to basically still try to recover one

but not expecting it to be

real flight worthy and just kind of see what

we needs to be improved upon

is that what you said

yeah yeah yeah yeah so from

so to the point of the next phase of the program is

to splash one down in the ocean in any condition

okay so we're working really

really hard on the parachute systems

to

do that so that's really the next big

mask owners is to get

something splashed down in the ocean that we can go on

fish out

and there

wasn't too much more than learned by just continually

reining stages

without any parachute systems right

right that makes sense and so

after that you'll kind of

look at what needs to be beefed up and the heat shield

what needs to be beefed up

and any other things and you'll kind of have a good

starting point to really

a good data point to really be able to move forward

and not waste

r amp d on something that isn't going to work out

exactly I mean we've proven that

we can renter it

there's not a lot more we can prove by just

keeping on reentering them

reentering them

at this point what we need

to do now is

get one back and

look that's the ultimate proof in the pudding right

we'll get it back and if it looks in great shape

that'll be a huge bonus

if it's just hanging together by a string in a three

it didn't we just lucky then

you know that's a different

set of problems to solve

but you know obviously the stage is a well instrumented

and we're looking at heat flux and

temperatures and things like that

and the stages is making it back in one piece but

you know

the post investigation after recovery is really

we were going to see where we're at

that's awesome

that's got to be really exciting knowing that

you're making progress on something that

so few people have ever

really done and really accomplished

I mean on top of your list of achievements already

it seems like you're

it feels like you're plowing through this

pretty quickly and

man it's just crazy to think that your

that clothes already to

really be able to pluck one out of the ocean

and see how it did

I mean that's that's

is that going to be on the next flight then already

no flight 17 17

okay yes there's a block up block upgrade for flight 17

you know obviously the parachute systems

you know there's quality of interface there

by structural and and system level

so

but yeah the team the teams really kicking out I mean

yeah we're moving through super quickly and

you know

it's great to

great to put the work in in the beginning

do lots of testing in analysis and

come out the other side with positive results

there's a lot of

this kind of

I've been reflecting on this quite a bit recently

in development programs

so there's kind of two schools of thought right

with a lot of these systems

is fly really early and take lots of risk and

have lots of failures

or it's been a bit more time

do the analysis

really understand what's going on and

use those flights as kind of

final validation points rather than

massive learning along the way

so

I think

there's a really capable balance to be made there

between like just

just going forward and blowing crap out versus

you know

doing you know a good level analysis and understanding

versus going the other way

which is just analyzed to death

and then build one thing at the end

which you know we don't subscribe to either

there's a there's a middle point there

where I think there's an optimum curve

in the kind of if it versus reward

if you're either way of the curve

you can spend a lot of time with broken hardware

if you're this side of the curve

you spend too much time

too much time total that you don't get any results

that's really interesting

you're talking about that because that's actually

a topic

I'm kind of comparing the development and iteration of

a rocket like the sls

versus a rocket like starship and they

you couldn't have two

more different approaches

to development than those two rockets

and it sounds like

you guys are kind of finding that happy medium

where it's like

you know when it's

because that is an art on its own

that is apparently an art on its own

it is learning when to move on

when it's good enough

and when it's still

good enough to not be risky but still give you

the next step you know

and watching what you guys are doing

it looks like you're riding that line perfectly

from what I can tell is that

this is good enough to get us to the next step

you know but you're not spending years

on the chalkboard though

either

it seems like you're kind of right in the middle there

yeah you're right there

and that is a balance

and I think that's part of the successive rocket lab

is been able

to find that that

knee in the curve where

you're optimizing for time and efficiency and resources

yes because that's not free

no no nothing's free nothing is free in this game

everything is very expensive

do you think you'll actually save money

by recovering boosters

or is it literally

a matter of increasing production

cheaper than doubling the size of your factory like

give me that balance is there

do you think like

the economics of flying a helicopter again is not free

the boat all that stuff is not free

do you think that's

give me the balance sheet

approximately of what you feel like

that's gonna be right now

well I mean the key driver here is not economics

it's manufacturing

now

if we're able to do this really well

and let's take the utopian state where

we can pluck it out of the sky

put it back on the pad

charge up the batteries and fly again

then clearly is

there's a very strong economic advantage to that

but you know

I'm more realistic that

there's a middle point where we

pluck it out of the sky

there's a chunk of its first up

and we need to refurbish at a reasonable amount

so

at that point

if you come out kind of economically neat

from a production standpoint

you don't have to carry all of that facility

infrastructure and

people to be able to meet the same production rate

I mean it's a little bit of German and me coming out

it's just ultimately efficient

you know it's and scottish too

you know very very thrift thrifty

so but I mean it's it's it's

it's a really nice if you can make it work

it's a really nice point

to be it that you know

ultimately to reuse that hardware yeah

as far as reusing and relying do you feel

I'm curious if

the engines going forward

obviously we've seen spacex do

you know propulsive reentry and stuff like that

the actual nozzles themselves are typically

cooled regeneratively

with cold flowing fuel

how does that happen

because there's no fuel flowing through them

during the reentry process

how do they keep themselves from melting

I guess with that hot plasma

well their ink can elder start with

and it's a blunt body

so you push the shockwave forward of the

it's unlikely that any shockwaves are touching

to an engine bell

so you push the majority of the heat flux forward

but

that is kind of

the the art and what we're trying to do here is

you know the analysis team have

a goal of you know

no greater heat flux during reentry then during a seat

which is a pretty fifty goal

but

you know the methodology that we're we're employing

to try and manage those heat loads

and you know this is why

the corridor angle is so critical

that look if we can get to that point then

you know life is very good because you haven't exceeded

any kind of thermal boundaries at all

yeah that's I mean

for some reason

I don't think I realized that your nozzles are

actually made out of income now

and that's one of the great

best materials

isn't that one of the highest melting materials

basically known to

humans at this point it seems like it's right up there

oh niobiums is

niobiums much

is as much better

but you know those refractory melany and lloyd

but yeah in canala's

cinderellas is

you know store

high mounting temperature well

more so stronger at

elevated temperatures than high melting temperatures

yeah yeah so tell me

give me a real quick rundown then on where we're at

with photon and

sounds like you guys acquired a new

company that's going to help

is that going to help

produce photons at a

better rate and things like that

and just give me a little rundown on that

because photon seems to be something that

I know you and the industry are as excited

I think for us

spaceflight fans

that's one of those things

we don't get to see the direct benefit

we don't get to see the flame end of it

getting all exciting so tell me

tell me why that is exciting and what

and where it's at right now

yeah yeah so I mean look

you know the mission of rockett lab is we're trying to

you know makes

open up space to improve life on earth

that's the whole point

and

you know I guess one of the one of the things

that little ways frustrated me is that

I have a launch vehicle

and you take the kick stage

it has gps combs imus

reaction control systems

it is a satellite in its own right

and it would always frustrate me that

literally six inches away from

my satellite is another set of life with

sometimes exactly the same equipment on board

and you know I deliver my customer satellite

and then my satellites and all but

we play with it for a while and then we turn it off

it just seems incredibly wasteful

and in the other part of the element

the other element of this is that

if you distill out

what it takes to build business in space

you know

the launch is one piece and

launch we see is a solve problem there

but the next problem to solve is

how can I make it so

that it doesn't take a team of 20 engineers

to build a spacecraft

a huge amount of resources cost in time

and every spacecraft

is different I mean the coupe set

is a wonderful example of kind of a standardization

but even within a cube set

there's a three u3 you tuna can

through you excel

and so on and so forth

so what we're trying to do here

is provide a best in class

small satellite

bus platform and really

the ethos is that

no company should ever have to worry

about whether or not their reaction wheels are set

trading or

any ear those kinds of

you know on orbit everyday stuff

they should just be worrying

about the sensor that generates them revenue

likewise

the government should be worried about the capability

that

they're trying to create

rather than you know

contract is building

the spacecraft and then

the rocket and the spacecraft doing the dance

and the coupled loads and ellis

and all of the junk that goes along with it

how can we seamlessly

make this experience or this

integration you know very very easy

and

that's that that's that you know photon really

is what they're trying to

that's what is trying to address is

just come with this sensor

everything else should be a commodity

the launcher be a commodity

bus should give you a commodity ground option

being commodity

just

come with the sensor or the science

or whatever you're trying to do

or the business

that you're trying to create

and leo and let's just get it up there quickly

that's for some reason I don't think I had ever

like thought of it too much

and it makes so much sense

when you break it down like that

people are

spending the same amount of time engineering

something that's literally right there

I mean this totally makes sense when

how much cheaper can someone fly if

they don't have to do half of the work you know

that's I don't know why that never hit me

yeah I mean we talked to we talked to

customers and especially government customers

and you know 18 months is an extraordinary short time

to go from

hey we're gonna fly something to having it on all but

that's considered to be you know incredibly quick

you know 18 months for us is an eternity

you know in 18 months

that was half the development timeline of electron

that may as well be half of someone's life

so you know

why we sit the goal internally as

it should be three months

turn up with your sensor

and you should be on orbit within three months

so everything is kind of in baseline against there

and then you know as we started to build out photon

we found that

the space

satellite and space supply chain is incredibly fragile

we knew that from electron that's why we build 90

of all the stuff that goes in electron as rocket lab

built so we knew that the supply chain is fragile

but I guess I underestimated just health regime the

you know the supply chain

for spacecraft and spacecraft components really was

and it's all good and well

you know

sitting a goal of saying well three months from

you know bringing me your sensor to orbit

but if I've got to wait a year to get

some critical components from suppliers

that's not going to work

so

you know we needed

to you know

make them a supply chain much much more robust

so

we had already spoken

dogs and clears products in a spacecraft

because they're beautiful pieces of jewelry

and we just we just you know we love beautiful things

so we'd already we'd already baseline those

but it was a really a wonderful opportunity

because you know doug had a great product

we have a great product that

we have the ability to scale products very easily

when you look at satellite components and compete them

alongside rocket components it's just mmm

this is walking the back right

so

you know we had the ability to scale things like star

trekkers and

reaction wheels and

torque rods and all those kinds of things

and dark haire beautiful products

so it was really that the perfect fit

and we're not just you know doing it for our

own photon spacecraft

you know when we talk to other customers

that are trying to build their own spacecraft

everybody acknowledges the supply

chain of super brittle

so this is about making sure that

we don't just

provide components to our own platforms

we can provide components

to a bunch of other platforms as well

and if they fly an electron

they're flying electron high grade

if they don't

they don't doesn't matter either

you know

this is all about trying to

trying to really

move the space economy

wow so I mean

for some you know

I think that's again

another one of the things that some of us

don't realize

how hard it is to manufacture things and how

big of a hurdle that can be is actually getting things

produced at a rate at sustainable and

and economically beneficial because

we don't see that on this end of things at all and

that I had no idea you guys were actually working on

you know the option of people buying star trackers

or you know any of that type of stuff any of those

really

weird things that you can't just hop on amazon and buy

that's really cool I had no idea that's

that might be one of those

small things in the background that makes a big

ripple effect

in the industry

well we hope so we hope so I mean at the end of the day

the more spacecraft that launched

you know the bitter the space economy is

and the easier we can make that the bitter as well

it's a circular reference rod

if you make it easier and easier

than it just spins out faster and faster

and you know it's not just dugs components that

we sell it's we've built a whole

catalog of our own spacecraft components

so we built you know

severs acs systems

in our pair distribution modules

we have the full suite

of components settle like components

and the purpose of that is that

we can go to the shelf and pick off everything

anything we want in building everything we want

and I guess there's no more

no more kind of

obvious example of that than the capstone mission

to the moon

we take a hyper curry engine off the shelf we take a

star trek is off the shelf or action wheels

off the shelf

all the power modules and power systems off the shelf

and put together that in the format of

a mission that can deliver payload to the moon

likewise

we can assemble those building blocks if you will

into a leo platformer geo platform

you know we can even get 20 yard kilograms to venus

venus is my personal favor planet I love being wow

it's a totally totally underrated planet

yeah absolutely

but you know

the photon is a concept it's photon is not

a piece of hardware

you know a photon is

an electron emits a photon

in some you know

in a kind of

a physics standpoint yeah so

it's really it's really a program

not a hardware platform so a photon can be

a very simple comb spacecraft in

and leonard it can be an interplanetary mission as well

with a different collection of hardware

wow

that's I had no idea you could go interplanetary with

photon because you mentioned in

when we were

hanging out at your launchpad

that you could basically keep stacking tanks

on top of photon and increase your delta v abilities

I mean obviously there's at the point where it's

you're kind of maxing out the vehicle below it

and you're kind of maxing out the platform

of course

could I mean at this point

if you could you stick landing legs

theoretically on photon

and actually do you have enough

delta veto land a photon on the moon

oh I think that's pushing it

that gets pretty tough that gets pretty tough

but we express

they're working on a lander that

gets kicked out to tie on photon right

and

then it stitches down from there so it's probably a

nice benefit there

to stage at that point

and not have to take all that mass

the service of them yeah yeah yeah yeah look I mean

I've learned very

I've learned to never say anything's impossible

because I just end up eating hats

so I'm not gonna say that it's impossible

but it's it's

that's another level of tricky

you know with respect to

these smaller platforms is the certain things

that don't trade well

but could someone buy a photon from you

stick landing on legs on it and fly it on a little bit

bigger rocket

be an option

yeah absolutely yeah absolutely yeah of course

and you know the

you know the photon lunar stage that we've developed

already you know

we've already been reached out to it the number of

the large year space

you know companies because it's a it's a high energy

super you know super high performance

high delta v stage

so whether it's taking a small payload to the moon

or you put 100 cages on it and

a couple hundred cages on it

and launch it on a bigger vehicle

at the end of the day

it's a spacecraft

and

although it's optimized for electron so you know

the photon's flight computer

is the same flight computer

that controls and launches in electron

so we don't have an electron flight computer

and a photon flight computer

you know photon always shears parts of

electron with itself

so

you know when we're in launch mode

the flight computers in launch mode

and it takes control of the range

and it launches the vehicle and guides it all the way

to home and transfer

the moment we kick off

photon the flight computer goes okay

now I'm gonna set a light and

flips into cell light mode

and it's just a nice way of reusing

all of the same

hardware that's required on a launch vehicle as

a spacecraft wow

so

you're maybe going to be able to fulfill someday

my dream I've always wanted to have some kind of

satellite of the people

something some everyday satellite or something

I don't know what it is

yeah

maybe if our audience can come up with something cool

well crowdsource

something awesome that people could upload

their images or

something like that

on the proton system that just sounds

for some reason this is already my gears turning

I mean you can do anything when you have

the whole thing kind of laid out for you like that

yeah go to go to venus tom you need to go to venus

that's where it's all happening

okay I mean I'll do that

that sounds awesome

is there anything

else you're really looking forward to

I know

obviously think these are kind of probably moving

they're kind of on pause at the moment I'm sure with

everything happening right now

I think everyone's kind of

a little bit half twiddling the thumb is hoping

we're gonna be okay

but in general down there in New Zealand

what's what's next for you guys

what are you most looking forward to this year

yeah I mean as you say we need to get back to work

I think the whole world

is in kind of a holding pattern right now

but you know

presuming the everything everything gets back to work

quickly you know I guess

there's a few key milestones

for us as you know

launch is just a

we're just turning it out cranking the handle and

you know it's a lot of a lot of vehicles

coming down the production line so that

better is just done

the things that I guess is almost excited about

I think things are talking about today is

getting that that next step of recovery is really

important

you know getting that stage subsonic and

to a point where we can splash it down as

is really really important

and I think

that is that is the day of sickening

as when we fish that thing out of the ocean

and see what we've got

that is you know that is a point where we will

defining moment we will go okay

this this this looks infinitely doable at this point or

man this this is not looking good

so I think that is a key that's a key element

but you know

we've got through

two of the hardest things in my opinion

the reentry is by far the hardest

you know and then capturing it as

something

we needed to prove that you know

we could do and do reliably

so that was a big milestone

and then

it's a year of the satellite for rocket lab

that's what it's all about and

you know everyone thinks of rocket lab

I guess it's in the name

as a rocket company

but you know we're really a space company

and

you know

building satellites

and components

and there's a whole lot of other stuff we do

that probably people aren't wear over as well

we manage spacecraft constellations for governments

we do a whole lot of

other stuff that is

you know it's not not directly associated with launch

and you know that's the point is

is building a company to

not just be a launch company because

launches even loves launch I love launch but

if we really want to deliver on on our mission

we have to extend past launch and

solve some of the other problems that's awesome

I have just one favor to ask because

I think it's going to be pretty cool

well you please provide

as best of footage

probably not livestream

because it's really

difficult when you're in the middle of the ocean

all know how difficult live stream is but

will you provide a footage of the recovered stage

when you do splash on down show us

give us a sense of how it did as soon as you can

because that's we're all gonna be really

excited to see that

yeah yeah you know no problems at all

I don't see in sydney as long as it's not

ip hanging out the sight of it will

we're happy to share that

oh that's gonna be awesome

and one more thing I do have to say

you had me so bad with your electron heavy

oh that was good wasn't it oh you

you had me and the internet loved it that was so great

that was so fun to see

and the worst of the worst thing is

you had to have posted that on April 2nd

didn't you

New Zealand time

well I mean we're New Zealand time New Zealand time but

but you know so

you got it you got it you know

so electron heavy confirmed electron heavy confirmed

there we go

because you pose them on the s and

well that's true and you know

it also has

a full life support system up in the nose kind as well

tom it's of course

you're ready

you have your ready to send meat now you're ready

yeah yeah I love it

well thank you so so much for spending some time and

stay safe and healthy and

we're

still so excited to see what you guys are working on

thanks to appreciate it

thanks for watching this interview

don't worry I've got a lot more content coming

I know I keep saying I'm going to do a quick video

and then I fall into deep rabbit holes

and the video I'm working on currently is

definitely not an exception to that rule

I'm working on a video at this moment

about whether or not

nasa should look at utilizing

starship for the artemis program

and comparing it to sls

weighing out the pros and cons of each system

and let me tell you

it's a rabbit hole but I'm just about done with it

hopefully it'll be coming out really soon

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thank you thanks everybody that's gonna do it for me

I'm tim dodd

the everyday astronaut bringing space down to earth

for everyday people