Original subtitles

Previously on The West Wing:

Vinick is a terrific debater.

He doesn't need the debates, we do.

We're gonna get a deal on debates soon enough, and on our terms.

It's a negotiating session for presidential debates.

Vinick could kick Santos' abortion-loving ass all over the stage.

Game over. Check, please.

He wants us to get into a mud-wrestling match with Matt Santos?

Hope this works. Vinick can live without debates.

We don't get them, we're toast.

A real debate on the issues...

...just you and me.

How's Sunday night?

Hey, good evening.

Well, we got a good audience.

Three minutes, senator.

This little girl's gone crazy. Oh, I know that it takes a long time...

I have to go downstairs for the last minute pre-game press spin.

- Bruno's gonna walk you to the stage. - Yep.

Don't worry about getting everything in in every answer.

We can fill in the blanks with the press in the spin room afterwards.

Remember, two-minute answers followed by one-minute rebuttals.

Moderator's option to allow a 30-second rebuttal to a rebuttal...

...or you can move on. - Stupid rules too.

Two minutes, one minute, 30 seconds. What...?

- What can you say in 30 seconds? - Santos negotiated to protect him...

- Why the hell did we agree to them? - They protect you too.

No, they don't. They screw me up. They make me feel stiff.

Just...

...be yourself.

Don't forget to smile.

I'm telling you, Santos is terrified to go on that stage tonight...

You have no idea what this feels like.

"Terrified" doesn't begin to describe it.

The worst thing is to struggle with the moderator.

No, the worst is to forget about everything I've come here to say...

...every debate point I ever memorized, every word of my opening statement.

- You are gonna be great. - I don't feel great.

- You've been through tougher than this. - Like?

- Combat. - Flashing yellow, you got 15 seconds.

- Red light means... - Let me guess.

Vinick will hide behind the rules. No answer to how he'll pay for his tax cuts.

He'll run the clock out on that one. You can too.

If you get in a jam, use a paragraph from your stump speech to get to the red.

The rules are your friend, use them so this doesn't become...

- A debate. - Debate. Exactly.

Good evening, and welcome to the first presidential debate...

...with the Republican Party's nominee, California senator, Arnold Vinick...

...and the Democratic Party's nominee, Texas congressman, Matthew Santos.

I'm Forrest Sawyer, and I will moderate tonight's debate...

...following rules worked out by representatives of the candidates.

Now, I've agreed to enforce their rules.

Each candidate will have a two-minute opening statement.

I will then ask a series of questions, all of them chosen by me alone.

I have told no one what the subjects or the questions will be.

For each question, there will be a two-minute answer...

...followed by a one-minute rebuttal...

...with the possibility of a 30-second extension...

...at my discretion.

A yellow light...

A yellow light will come on when there are 15 seconds left in an answer.

A flashing red means time's up...

...and if we need it, we have a backup buzzer.

I think time's up on the rules, Forrest.

Well, there's a little more, congressman.

Candidates may not question each other.

And they will have two-minute closing statements.

The last rule is for our audience here in the hall:

Now that you have had your fun...

...they will remain silent until the end of the debate...

...when we can all give democracy a big round of applause.

And now, as determined by the flip of a coin...

...the first opening statement will be from Senator Vinick.

Thank you.

It is truly an honor to be here tonight.

I would...

You know, I've watched every televised presidential debate...

...this country has ever had.

And every time I heard them recite the rules, I always thought:

"That means they're not gonna have a real debate."

When the greatest hero in the history of my party, Abraham Lincoln...

...when he debated, he didn't need any rules.

He wasn't afraid of a real debate.

I could do a two-minute version of my "Sensible Solutions" stump speech...

...and I'm sure Congressman Santos has a memorized opening statement ready.

And then we could... We could go on with this ritual...

...and let rules control how much you learn...

...about the next president of the United States.

Or we could have a debate Lincoln would be proud of.

We could junk the rules.

We could let our able and judicious moderator ask questions.

We could forget whether each of us gets the same number of seconds to speak.

We could have a real debate. If that's all right with you, Matt.

According to the rules, candidates may not...

No, no. Please.

You mean, like a senate debate?

Gonna filibuster me? Grab the microphone for the whole hour?

No.

No, we tell the American people what they need to hear.

No more, no less.

I suspect the audience will reward brevity.

Okay.

Let's have a real debate.

Gentlemen, I just wanna be clear.

You both want to abandon the rules your representatives negotiated...

...and rely on me to moderate an open debate in a fair way?

Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.

- Let's do it. - All right, then.

I'll follow the order determined by the coin toss.

First question goes to Senator Vinick.

Senator, the governors of Arizona and New Mexico...

...have declared a state of emergency on their Mexican borders...

...because of illegal immigration.

How would you secure the Mexican border?

Enforcement first. That's my policy.

I would double the Border Patrol.

Not just increase it, double it.

We need to make a statement that says, "We mean it this time."

That we're really cracking down on illegal immigration.

We need that to be heard loud and clear on the other side of the border...

...where everyone knows how easy it is to get into this country.

I want everyone on the other side to think about...

...how hard it is to get into this country.

That's the kind of sensible solution you can expect from a Vinick White House.

Congressman Santos.

Double the Border Patrol, sounds good, sounds tough.

Why not triple it?

Why not triple it, senator?

- Are you proposing tripling...? - You're the one...

...who's campaigning on doubling the Patrol.

- Why not triple it? - I'm proposing doubling the Patrol...

Oh, yeah, we heard that speech.

- We need enforcement first. - No... Okay.

Why not triple the Border Patrol, sir?

- Lf we could find room in the budget... - I don't know how you're gonna find...

- Please let him finish. - Yeah.

No, I'm finished.

I don't know how you're going to find room to double the Patrol...

...with the tax cut you're proposing.

Why not triple the Border Patrol? I'll tell you why not.

Because we already did.

Since 1990, we have tripled... Not doubled.

We've tripled the Border Patrol on the Mexican border.

Don't need me to tell you it hasn't solved the problem.

- Lf we had more agents... - Doubling the Patrol...

...means that 80 percent of illegal entries will get in instead of 90 percent.

Don't let anyone tell you the border can be secured by doubling the Border Patrol.

The problem of illegal immigration is much bigger than the Border Patrol.

Which is why we passed CAFTA this year.

- Central American Free Trade Agreement. - CAFTA will not help...

It's a good deal for American consumers and will create jobs in Central America.

And the more jobs that are created there...

...the fewer people who will come here looking for work.

- That won't work, senator. - A vote for CAFTA...

...was a vote for our economy...

...and a vote against illegal immigration.

I'm proud to say that I cast that vote in the Senate.

How did you vote on CAFTA, congressman?

I don't think there's anyone in the country...

...who doesn't know how I voted on CAFTA, senator.

You've all heard it, right?

My most famous quote of the campaign.

I voted for CAFTA before I voted against it. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

I voted for CAFTA in the Ways and Means Committee...

...because it was a good bill.

Then special interests went to work...

...corporate lobbyists kept squeezing in special provisions for their clients.

It wasn't a free-trade bill anymore. It certainly wasn't a fair-trade bill.

- I voted against it. - When was the last time...

...you voted for a perfect bill? - I knew...

...that you would exploit my voting record on CAFTA.

I didn't make the political choice here. I made the right choice.

And if I had to do it over again, I would vote exactly the same way.

I voted for CAFTA because it would help people in those poor countries find jobs.

- We need... - You cannot pretend...

...that trade agreements are going to solve the problem.

Trade agreements are part of the solution, but so is my guest-worker program.

Now, we have to face the fact that we have at least 10 million people...

...who have illegally entered this country...

...but who are now putting in an honest day's work.

And they're mostly doing jobs that Americans don't wanna do.

We need to establish a legal system for these workers.

Senator, where were you when I introduced a guest-worker program...

...into the House six years ago?

Where were you, sir?

You just discovered the problem this year, and I think we know why.

Congressman, are you suggesting Senator Vinick has raised...

...Mexican border issues in this campaign...

...because he's running against a Latino candidate?

No.

Look, I have family who have lived in Texas since it was Mexico.

I have other relatives who have come here legally...

...and, yes, some who have come here illegally.

I have lived this problem.

The senator talks about how easy it is to cross the Rio Grande.

Tell that to the families of the men, women and children...

...who have died trying.

- I'm not saying it's not tragic. - This is not a law-enforcement problem.

This is an economic problem.

If Mexico's economy was as strong as Canada's...

...there wouldn't be a problem.

The president cannot solve this problem.

You can't seal a 2000-mile border.

Mexico has to solve it.

Mexico has to grow its economy, provide enough jobs...

...so that it's not worth it to try to cross into our borders illegally.

There's no other solution to this. Senator Vinick is smart enough to know that.

And I think you are too.

Senator Vinick.

Senator Vinick.

Senator, I think it's fair to say the centerpiece of your campaign...

...is your promise to cut taxes.

So could you tell us specifically, sir...

...how you would cut spending to pay for those tax cuts?

What do you mean "pay" for the tax cuts?

I mean, would you cut spending in the same amount you cut taxes...

...in order to balance the budget?

Liberals, who are opposed to tax cuts anyway...

...always say you can't cut taxes until you've cut spending.

I say we can lecture our children about overspending...

...until we run out of breath...

...or we can just cut their allowance. I'm a cut-the-allowance kind of parent.

Well, I'm a grandparent now. I'm a little less strict.

Less strict than I used to be.

All right, but I'm going to cut Congress's allowance.

And then I'm going to force them to get control of spending...

...because if they don't...

...if they send me a budget that's not balanced...

...I will use this pen to veto it.

Congressman Santos...

Congressman Santos...

Congressman Santos, your response.

Well, I hope everyone noticed that the senator did not answer the question.

He didn't tell you what spending he will cut.

Would you like to try that again?

I said I will balance the budget.

We've seen this game before.

See, we have a proven record on Republican tax cuts.

First they cut taxes.

Then they never get around to cutting spending, so they run up huge deficits...

...and leave a massive debt for our children to pay.

If you elect me as president, that is a game I won't play.

You know, Congressman Santos is running a very brave campaign.

I have to give him that. I have to give you credit for that.

He's actually promising a tax increase...

...which is a brave thing to do because the American people don't want it...

...and it's the wrong thing to do because the American people don't want it.

But even his big tax increases won't raise enough money...

...to pay for the big spending increases he's promising.

So President Santos would have to do exactly what he's promising not to do:

Run up huge deficits...

...and leave a massive debt for our children and grandchildren to pay.

Wrong. I am going to balance the budget.

Yes, I am in favor of tax increases, but they won't affect you...

- That's what they always tell you. ...unless you make a million a year.

I'd like to propose to raise taxes 1 percent on incomes over a million.

I wanna raise taxes another 2 percent on incomes over 10 million...

...and another 2 percent on incomes over a hundred million dollars.

Now, does that sound like cruel and unusual punishment for the super rich?

- They're paying their share. - They're not.

- They are. - They're to pay 35 percent...

...but with the loopholes you've written into the tax code...

...they wind up paying 23 percent, less than I pay.

But you're not taking into account...

The richest of the rich, people who make over a hundred million dollars a year...

...don't pay close to the tax rate they're supposed to.

- That's what Senator Vinick calls fair? - Gentlemen? Gentlemen?

I'd like an answer to my original question on spending cuts.

Now, are either of you prepared to specify...

...what cuts you would make in order to balance the budget?

- Well, l... - Okay, let's... Just as a hypothetical.

Let's accept the worst-case scenario...

...that neither of us will be able to pay for everything we wanna do as president.

Then your choice is between a Republican who can't pay for tax cuts...

...or a Democrat who can't pay for spending increases...

...even after raising taxes.

I think the American people know how to make that choice.

Congressman Santos.

Congressman, throughout this campaign, you've said you wanna be...

...the "education president."

What does that mean? What role should the government play in education?

Level the playing field.

Help close the gap between Beverly Hills High and Harlem High.

We've got to change a system...

...that says the quality of your education depends on where you live.

Throw money at the problem. That's the Democratic Party way.

You wanna throw money at the border. You think solving...

Before you vote for someone who thinks...

...you can buy higher test scores for poor students, know this:

The highest spending public-school system in the country...

...has the lowest test scores.

Washington, D.C. Spends more than every state:

Fifteen thousand dollars per pupil and nothing to show for it.

I am not talking about just throwing money at the problem.

I am talking about supporting the new approaches...

...that have already succeeded in some school districts.

Now, the president can spread those good ideas around the country...

...and make sure every student gets the chance he or she deserves.

Except the chance to go to a private school.

The Republican Congress passed a federally-funded voucher program...

...for Washington, D.C. To help poor students...

...who can't go to private schools.

Well, we got more applications than we could handle.

Poor minority parents...

...desperately wanna get their kids out of failing public schools...

...but the Democrats won't let them. - Right. The big, bad Democrats...

...don't wanna take money from public schools to give to private schools.

What's next? Taking money from police departments...

...to give to private security guards?

The federal government contributes about every seven cents...

...from each dollar that's spent on public schools.

Now, if you enact every bit of the Santos education plan...

...that will go up to eight cents.

Do you really think you get to call yourself the "education president"...

...if you're only gonna address 8 percent of the education budget?

The federal share is higher than that...

...if you take into account the Head Start program.

I understand why you don't include Head Start in the total...

...since you voted against it. - Head Start doesn't work.

I wish Head Start did work, but it doesn't.

By grade four and five...

...Head Start graduates do no better academically...

...than their equally poor classmates who didn't attend Head Start.

So, yes, I have voted against expansions...

...of a six-billion-dollar program that's not raising achievement.

But Head Start does raise scores in the early years, and then we let them slip.

Our whole school system has been slipping now for years...

...in our ranking with other countries in science and math achievement.

We've gotta find a way to turn that around.

If we provide school systems and teachers...

...with everything they need and the flexibility to experiment...

...with fresh, new approaches...

...I think American students can be number one...

...in math and science achievement in 10 years.

- That's a lie. - You're the liar!

Please. Ladies and gentlemen...

...I think we should impose the original rule on the audience.

I'm going to ask you to please remain silent for the remainder of the debate.

And Senator Vinick... Senator Vinick...

...we've managed to maintain a civil tone throughout...

...and unless we can continue to do that...

...I'm going to impose the original rules on the candidates as well.

It's a lie that every president, Democrat and Republican...

...has been telling for 20 years:

"We're gonna be number one in 10 years."

Go ahead, Google it right now.

I'm not saying that every president knew it was a lie when he said it...

...or that Congressman Santos knows it's not true, but I do.

So let me tell you what our goals should be, our realistic goals.

First of all, let's stop pretending that everyone can or should go to college.

Every airline needs high-paid mechanics.

None of them have to go to college.

There are plumbers in the country who make a better living than dentists.

Now, I'm not talking about lowering our ambitions...

...I'm talking about targeting our ambitions correctly.

It's true, some other countries are doing better academically than they used to.

But we still have the best scientists in the world...

...the best doctors, the best... By far, the most Nobel Prizes.

And if a kid does well in one of those foreign high schools...

...guess where he or she wants to go to college.

That's right, Harvard, Stanford, Caltech, University of Texas...

...and a hundred other American universities...

...that are better than anything they have in their countries.

Now, if we're going to have a practical approach to education...

...we're going to have to admit that not everyone can go to MIT.

But most of the kids who do go to MIT come from American public schools.

So give up on Head Start, just give up on early education...

...and then give up on those kids who don't test well.

- "They'll find their way." - I'm not gonna give up...

You haven't proposed a single thing that will make them better.

Not one idea.

I'm going to keep trying new ideas.

Some of them might work, some might not.

And I will level with you about that.

Keep the good ideas, get rid of the bad.

And I will not let a day go by in the White House...

...where I don't work hard to try to improve our public schools.

In fact, I'm going to stake my presidency on that.

Right here, right now.

And if in four years...

...you don't feel I've improved public education in this country...

...then do not vote for my re-election.

Gentlemen...

Gentlemen...

Gentlemen, I would like to turn to health care.

Senator, there are now 45 million Americans...

...who have no health insurance at all.

What can the government do to make health care affordable for them?

Make it tax deductible. Instantly cuts the price by as much as 35 percent.

Happens to be one of the items in my cut package.

You really think tax cuts are the answer for everything.

- Lf it's deductible... - It won't help at all.

The uninsured are in the 35-percent tax bracket...

...not in the 10-percent bracket.

So your deduction would only give them a 10-percent discount.

So then a $ 10,000 policy would cost $9000.

Does that sound like something a mother of three...

...making $30,000 a year can afford?

So after you've raised taxes...

...and you've enacted every bit of the Santos health-care plan...

...then all the health-care problems in America will be solved, right?

Everyone will have health insurance, be happy?

It will move us toward universal health coverage...

Toward universal coverage? So it won't cover the 45 million...

It will be a very large first step toward universal coverage...

First step. So after you've enacted the plan that you're proposing here tonight...

...how many people will that leave without health insurance?

The first stage of my plan would cover 15 million people.

- Fifteen million? - Yes, 15 million...

...which represents the biggest increase in health coverage...

...the government has ever provided. - After raising taxes...

...and creating a massive new bureaucracy...

...to run a complex government health-insurance program...

...the Santos health plan...

...will leave 30 million people without health insurance.

Do you really think that Congress is gonna let you do all that...

...and not even cover half the problem?

To tell you the truth, I'm not crazy about my health-care plan either.

It's what I think can get through Congress.

My ideal plan? Very simple:

Just delete the words "over 65" from the Medicare statute.

Wait... No, wait. Wait, excuse me.

You wanna put everyone in the country on Medicare?

Why not? You wanna start on the socialized-medicine rap now?

- For starters. - Never going to happen...

...because Senator Vinick and...

- Can they hear me? - No, sir. No, sir.

- Can I? - No, no, no.

Senator Vinick and the insurance companies will never let it happen.

But if you all had an option, an option...

...of using Medicare, you could save a lot of money.

Private health insurance companies...

...they spend about 25 percent of your money...

...on administrative costs, on paperwork.

Do you know how much Medicare spends on administrative costs?

- Like to guess? - Thirty-five percent.

- Thirty-five percent. - Forty percent.

Forty percent. Anyone wanna go higher?

- Forty-five. - Yeah, you see...

...you think it would be higher than private companies, right?

A massive government bureaucracy...

...can't be more efficient than private companies.

Republicans have been telling you that forever.

Two. Two percent.

Medicare's administrative costs are 2 percent.

That's 23 percent lower than private health-insurance companies and HMOs.

The best kept secret in this country...

...is that Medicare is the most efficient health-care system in the world.

If you had the option of choosing Medicare...

...instead of insurance companies...

...you would save big money, at least 20 percent.

That's crazy. Medicare taxes would skyrocket.

Yes, the Medicare tax would have to go up...

...but it would still be lower than your present health-care insurance premiums.

I don't know about you, but if you give me a choice...

...between something called a premium and something called a tax...

...my question is: Which one's cheaper? - I don't know where to begin.

- To force everyone into a program... - I wouldn't force anyone...

...I would just give them the option.

See what happens when the HMOs have to compete with an efficient system...

...that allows you to choose your doctor and make your health-care decisions.

Finished? If you have anything sensible to say about health care...

Coming from a guy who has no plan at all...

...who has spent a career saying, "No, no, no"...

...to every health-care reform that has ever come to Congress...

Do you have another one of these microphones?

You gentlemen aren't going to go out in the audience, are you?

Okay, let me leave it at this:

I am opposed to Congressman Santos' compromise plan and to his dream plan.

And I pledge to you, here tonight, I will never raise the Medicare tax.

- Not one penny. - Senator, you're on Medicare, right?

I'm on the Senate health-care plan.

And you use Medicare as a supplement to that plan.

- I haven't really... - Medicare is good enough for him...

...but it's not good enough for us?

I'm just saying that if we could join Medicare...

...we could have a much cheaper, much more efficient health-care system.

Let me raise a related issue, if I possibly could...

...and that is, prescription drugs, whose prices have been going up...

...at more than twice the rate of inflation.

So do you favor reimporting American drugs from Canada...

...where they are much cheaper?

You know why Canadian drugs are cheaper?

Why drugs are cheaper up there?

Because the government controls the price.

You know how many life-saving drugs are invented in Canada?

None. Because the government controls the price...

Canadian laboratories have helped to create important drugs.

Nothing like the miraculous drugs...

...that the American industry has given to the world.

"Given to the world"? I guess you haven't seen their price lists lately.

Not long ago, if you were HIV-positive in this country...

...you were marked for death. Not anymore.

And that's thanks to the American pharmaceutical companies.

In the 1970s, the most common cause of surgery was for ulcers.

Now, you get an ulcer, you take a pill.

Is it an expensive pill? Yes.

Yeah, a dollar seems like a lot to pay for a pill.

But how does a dollar a day sound compared to a $40,000 surgery bill?

So are prescription drugs expensive? Yes.

Do they save us from getting hit with...

...much more expensive hospital bills? Yes.

Do they save lives? Yes.

American pharmaceutical companies save us money and they save lives...

...and the Democrats can't stop attacking them.

Why should the pharmaceutical industry...

...get protection that no other American industry gets?

We can buy anything else from Canada, why not drugs?

- Canadian price controls are not fair to... - They're not fair?

Is it fair that AIDS victims have been dying in Africa...

...because drug companies have been protecting their profits?

Drug makers have lowered their prices in Africa.

Only after we have pushed them.

And they're still not low enough to get to every person who really needs them.

People are not dying in Africa because of drug companies.

They're dying because they don't have clean water...

...because they don't have a basic infrastructure for a health-care system...

...and because they have corrupt leaders...

...who frequently prevent our help from getting to the sick people who need it.

Yes, health-care delivery in Africa is weak...

...which is why we have to provide full-scale debt relief for those countries...

...so that they can concentrate on building up their basic infrastructure...

...instead of the burden of repaying loans to rich countries.

Debt relief's a nice idea, but it won't help.

It'll just formalize the reality...

...that poor countries can never repay their loans.

Are you saying that you're opposed to debt relief for impoverished countries?

We should forgive the debts, but that's not gonna help those countries.

Okay, what will?

Tax cuts.

Some African tax rates are the highest in the world.

In Tanzania the 30-percent rate kicks in...

...at $475 of income.

They have a 20 percent value-added tax that gets added to everything you buy.

Those high tax rates make it impossible to build capital in those countries...

...so nothing gets built, not factories, not roads, not anything.

Poor African countries have the lowest-wage workers in the world...

...and yet a company like Nike, for instance...

...can't put a factory in one of those countries...

...because of the oppressive tax rates.

Taxes have killed any possibility of economic development.

They've killed any hope of these countries helping themselves.

Helping themselves.

And that leaves them...

...completely at the mercy of charity and loans.

And here...

Here's the worst part. You know why those countries have such high tax rates?

Because of us.

To show us that they can raise enough money to pay back their loans.

But taxes can't raise any money if they kill the economies.

So it turns out...

...that the tragic unintended consequence of our good intentions...

...toward Africa, our kindness...

...is that we have encouraged those countries to lock themselves...

...into a gruesome economic depression.

If we don't urge those countries to cut their tax rates...

...they will never grow their economies.

People will live lifetimes of unemployment.

Disease will be rampant. Poverty will be permanent...

...and children will be hungry.

And our charity will never be enough.

Never.

Gentlemen, I'd like to come to the question of jobs right here at home.

Congressman, an awful lot of people are afraid...

...that their jobs are gonna be outsourced or they're gonna be lost...

...in another round of belt tightening at their companies.

So, what will you do to increase job security?

We already have a program called...

...the Trade Adjustment Assistance Program...

...which provides job retraining to those workers...

...who've lost their jobs to foreign trade.

As president, I would add to that...

...any workers who lose their jobs to outsourcing.

My economic program...

...and my plan to keep American workers competitive...

...will keep on building on President Bartlet's extraordinary job record...

...and I think it'll keep us on track...

...to create a million jobs by the end of my first term of presidency.

- A million jobs? - That's right.

How many jobs would you create in your first term?

None.

In fact, I'll cut jobs.

I will reduce the number of jobs in the federal government.

I know I am supposed to tell you that my tax cuts...

...will stimulate the economy and therefore create jobs.

Entrepreneurs create jobs.

Business creates jobs.

The president's job is to get out of the way.

Do you want a president who will get out of their way...

...when executives are plundering a company like Enron?

I'll go after corporate criminals. My running mate, Ray Sullivan...

...was very tough on white-collar crime when he was a prosecutor.

And my attorney general will be just as tough.

Do you want a president who will get out of the way...

...when airline executives are putting their companies up to bankruptcy...

...so that they can avoid pension responsibilities...

...to the workers who have given their lives to these companies?

Some of our major and older airlines...

...are having trouble meeting their huge pension obligations...

...at the very same time that they're under intense, intense competition...

...from low-cost airlines that are so new they don't yet have pensions to pay.

Now, an unthinking liberal will describe the airline bankruptcies...

...as the evil capitalists screwing the worker...

I don't think you should put words in my mouth.

No, I know you didn't say it. You're not an unthinking liberal. Are you?

I know you like to use that word "liberal" as if it were a crime.

No, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have used that word.

I know Democrats think liberal is a bad word.

So bad you had to change it, didn't you?

What do you call yourselves, "progressives"?

It's true, Republicans have tried to turn "liberal" into a bad word.

Well, liberals ended slavery in this country.

A Republican president ended slavery.

Yes, a liberal Republican.

What happened to them?

They got run out of your party.

What did liberals do that was so offensive to the Republican Party?

I'll tell you what they did. Liberals got women the right to vote.

Liberals got African-Americans the right to vote.

Liberals created Social Security...

...and lifted millions of elderly people out of poverty.

Liberals ended segregation.

Liberals passed the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act.

Liberals created Medicare.

Liberals passed the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act.

What did conservatives do?

They opposed every one of those programs. Every one.

So when you try to hurl that word "liberal" at my feet...

...as if it were dirty, something to run away from...

...something that I'm ashamed of, it won't work.

Because I will pick up that label, and I will wear it as a badge of honor.

It is...

Please.

It is, I believe, a Republican governor...

...who has imposed a moratorium on the death penalty in Illinois.

And so, congressman, would you favor a moratorium...

...on the federal death penalty. - Yes.

- That's it? - That's it.

Okay. Senator?

No.

That's it?

- I think we've covered that one. - All right, sir.

Senator Vinick, let me try gun control. Do we need more of it?

No, the Constitution gives us the right to bear arms.

It's not up to the president to choose...

...which law-abiding citizens the Constitution applies to.

- Congressman Santos? - Forget about more gun control.

What we need is bullet control.

That's right. There are at least 200,000,000 guns in this country.

I own three of them. We cannot control the supply of guns...

...but we can control the supply of ammunition.

Buying bullets shouldn't be easier than buying a plane ticket.

We should license the purchase of ammunition.

There should be a clear record...

...an ID record, of every purchase of handgun ammo.

In the 21st century, homicide detectives...

...should be able to trace every fired bullet...

...back to the buyer in minutes. - Gentlemen, let's turn to energy.

We have seen record-high gasoline prices this year.

Is this a glimpse of an even worse future if we don't adopt a policy...

...that allows us to meet our energy needs...

...at reasonable prices? Congressman?

Well, obviously, it is time for us to get really serious...

...about developing alternative energy sources...

...and stop letting the oil companies dictate our energy policy...

...while racking up profits. - There you go, the Democratic line.

Attack big business, attack the oil companies...

- I'm not attacking them. - Yes, you are.

I understand that the oil companies...

...have given a lot of money to your campaign...

So I'm their puppet? Is that what you're saying?

- They own me? - Let's get back to...

He doesn't get to smear me and then move on.

- I didn't smear you... - That's what you're doing.

- Let's just take a breath if we could... - No, let's talk about the money.

He raised it. I think I have a right to respond.

All right, sir, go ahead.

I've disclosed the name of every one of the 220,000 people...

...who have contributed to my campaign.

There are no secrets about where my campaign money comes from.

Now, some of my contributors work for oil companies.

Liberals want you to think that's evil.

They want you to think you can't be a good American...

...if you work for an oil company.

I can remember when people were condemned in this country...

...for what they thought.

Condemned for their political positions.

Liberals fought the noble fight against that witch-hunt.

Liberals said that was un-American, and they were right.

Now liberals wanna condemn people because of where they work.

I've got relatives working all over the oil fields of Texas.

I am just saying that your positions on energy, senator...

...are exactly what oil companies wanna hear...

...which is why they've given so much money to you.

And your positions on spending, on creating more government jobs...

...they're exactly what the public employee unions wanna hear...

...and that's why they've poured money into your campaign.

Talk about conflict of interest.

- Throwing cheap accusations around... - I'm gonna have to stop it there...

Senator!

- Now... - I'm sorry.

Unless you're prepared to prove...

...not just accuse, but prove with facts...

...that your opponent is influenced by campaign contributions...

...let's agree to move on.

Congressman Santos, you said...

...that we have to reduce dependence on foreign oil.

So why not agree to drill in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge?

Because we cannot drill our way to energy independence.

There's only about a year's worth of oil underneath there.

I don't think that's worth disrupting a million years of ecological balance...

...in a unique and spectacular wilderness.

That ecosystem is much more valuable than the oil that's underneath it.

The pathway to a better, more sustainable energy future...

...does not go through the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

- Senator? - A year's worth of oil?

That sounds like a lot to me.

There could be more there. There could be much more.

I mean, we'll never know until we get in there and start drilling.

Now, I'm sure it's a beautiful place. Have you ever been there?

- No. - No, I haven't either. Have you? Anyone?

Clap if you've been to the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

See? And that's about how many people are ever going to go to ANWR: None.

Well, maybe a few very rich people with a private airplane...

...could get up there in the summer and snap some pictures.

This isn't the Grand Canyon we're talking about here.

How many people have been to the Grand Canyon?

If they discovered big oil reserves at the Grand Canyon...

...I'd never let them drill there...

...because that's our most magnificent natural monument...

...and because real people get to go there.

They get to see it, they get to touch it...

...they get to experience it in all its glory.

Now, we're talking about a country that has oil wells...

...within sight of the beautiful beaches of Santa Barbara.

Oil wells within sight of every Texas beach.

There are thousands of operating oil wells in the city of Los Angeles.

I saw an oil well in the parking lot of a McDonald's...

...in Long Beach, just the other day.

The Democrats are saying we can't put oil wells in a place so remote...

...that only animals will see them?

I wish we could put all our oil wells there...

...where no one will ever see them.

Congressman...

Congressman...

There are other approaches. Would you support...

...building nuclear power plants...

...to reduce our dependence on foreign energy sources?

No. No, we still haven't...

We still have not figured out what to do with the radioactive waste...

...from plants we already have. - Nuclear power is a completely safe...

...dependable energy source.

- Of course we should build more. - Safe?

I don't wanna be an alarmist here, but there are plenty of safety concerns.

That's why we stopped building them.

The government should be supporting...

...the development of alternative energy sources...

...and all of the new technologies like solar power, wind power...

...and all of the other new, safer alternatives to nuclear power.

How about that, senator?

Government support of alternative energy sources.

I don't trust politicians to choose the right new energy sources.

I believe in the free market.

The government didn't switch us from whale oil...

...to the oil found under the ground.

The market did that.

The government didn't make the Prius the hottest selling car in Hollywood.

That was the market that did that.

You know, in L.A. Now, the coolest thing you can drive is a hybrid.

Well, if the free market can do that in the most car-crazed culture on Earth...

...then I trust the free market to solve our energy problems.

You know... You know...

...the market has the power to change the way we think...

...to change what we want.

The government can't do that.

That's why the market has always been...

...a better problem solver than the government.

- And it always will be. - While you're trusting the market...

...we're burning fossil fuels more and more every day.

Global warming is melting the polar icecaps.

Same people who told you we'd run out of oil...

...by the end of the century...

...are scaring us with warming theories... - Theories?

Yeah, global-warming theories. That's all it is.

You don't think that there is a consensus going about...

...that global warming is melting the polar icecaps?

An increase of one degree in the Earth's temperature in the last 100 years.

- Gentlemen. - You don't understand.

- Gentleman! Gentleman! - Absolutely, l...

We're running short of time...

...and I would like to ask one final question on energy.

We'll be dependent on foreign energy sources for some time.

So, what can you do to assure...

...a dependable supply of oil? Congressman?

Well, let me start by saying what I would not do...

...because it is the most important part of my energy policy.

- I will never go to war for oil. Never. - Please.

Please.

And I would like to invite Senator Vinick to join me in that pledge.

Ladies and gentlemen...

Ladies and gentlemen, would you like to listen to yourselves applaud...

...or listen to the candidates speak? Please. Senator?

It's ridiculous to suggest...

...that we would ever have to go to war to assure our oil supply.

Oil is a commodity. It's traded on a world market.

You don't have to shoot anyone to get it, you just have to pay for it.

And by the way, you know... All right.

Do you know who our biggest supplier of foreign oil is?

- Saudi Arabia! - No, no. Wrong.

Canada.

So let's stop the hysterical talk about the evils of foreign oil.

If it's ridiculous to even think of going to war for oil, then join me in my pledge.

No. That'd be like going to war for sugar.

Do you wanna take a pledge against that too?

You know, the oil-exporting companies... The countries...

The countries who export oil, they have to sell it to survive.

They need us to buy it. They couldn't cut us off if they wanted to.

Will you join me in the pledge, senator?

I will not demean the presidency...

...by taking any pledge other than the oath of office.

Gentlemen, we have just a very few minutes left.

Now, would you like to use that for your closing statements?

- Yes. - All right, then.

According to the coin toss, the first statement...

...is from Congressman Santos.

Well, Senator Vinick was eager to take a pledge about taxes...

...but taking a pledge about anything else...

...is beneath the dignity of the presidency.

A president has to lead.

He has to actively head off problems...

...not just hope the market will figure out everything.

It's the free market that Senator Vinick trusts so much...

...that has left 45 million people without health insurance.

To his credit, the senator's very honest about having no health-care plan...

...no education plan, no jobs plan, no energy plan.

All he has is a tax plan.

After he cuts taxes, what's he going to do for the next four years?

Tax cuts...

Tax cuts are not a magic wand...

...that you can wave at every problem.

Senator Vinick was very quick to attack my plans.

But the presidency is about more than saying, "No, no, no."

You have to say yes to something. You have to do something.

We don't have time for me to remind you...

...of every policy difference you've heard tonight.

But when you go to work tomorrow...

...and you're talking about this debate...

...talk about the qualities that you want in a president...

...the leadership qualities.

Ask yourselves, "Is Matt Santos the kind of guy...

...who's going to give up on promises that he's made to you...

...because it's gonna be too tough to get them done?"

Talk about what it was like for Matt Santos...

...to go from where he was baptized, 45 years ago, in San Antonio...

...to where he's standing tonight.

Ask yourselves what it takes to do that.

And then ask yourselves if you're ready...

...to give Matt Santos the presidency of the United States.

You know, you've seen the stories in newspapers.

All over the world, they're asking:

"Is America ready for a Latino president?"

I never asked that question.

I never asked if Annapolis was ready for a Latino midshipman.

I never asked if the Marines were ready for a Latino fighter pilot.

I didn't have to ask. I just had to prove that I was ready...

...that I could get the job done.

I am asking for your vote now...

...because I know I am ready to do the job.

I thank you.

Senator Vinick, your closing statement.

First, I wanna thank Matt for agreeing to drop the rules...

...and letting us have a real debate tonight.

And what you've heard...

...over and above the many important policy differences...

...were different philosophies of government.

You know, I believe both of us want what's best for this country.

We just have different ideas about how to get there.

I think it's fair to say that Matt has more confidence in government than I do.

I have more confidence in freedom.

Your freedom.

Your freedom to choose your child's school.

Your freedom to choose the car or truck that's right for you and your family.

Your freedom to save or spend your hard-earned money...

...instead of having the government spend it for you.

No, you see, I'm...

I'm not anti-government.

I just don't want any more government than we can afford.

We don't want government doing things it doesn't know how to do...

...doing things the private sector does better...

...or throwing more money at failed programs.

Because that's exactly what makes people lose faith in government.

And all of us, Democrats, Republicans, liberals, conservatives...

...we all want a government we can believe in.

We want a government that doesn't make false promises...

...a government that doesn't overreach...

...that doesn't take on more than it can handle.

An efficient, effective, honest government.

That's what the Founding Fathers created, that's what they wanted for us.

The choice in this election comes down to this:

Do we want more government...

...or do we wanna get control of government?

To govern is to choose...

...and the choices are never easy.

There are lobbies that will fight every choice you make.

They're ready to call you names the second you make a choice they don't like.

You heard that heckler go after me here tonight.

You have to be tough to stand up to that.

But being tough won't help you make the right choice.

That takes experience and mature judgment.

That's what the presidency needs now, more than ever.

And that's why I ask you to give me your vote...

...so that I can give you the government you were promised...

...by the Founding Fathers.

Thank you very much.

Senator Vinick...

Senator Vinick, Congressman Santos, our thanks to you both.

Ladies and gentlemen, that is our debate.

Thank you for watching. Good night.

Thank you. Thank you.

Hey, you little guys!

Hey!

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