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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,000 SIRENS BLARE 2 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,760 WOMAN: I'd like to write something that is real, you know, 3 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,680 that is really Lady, and people who don't see her 4 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,840 in any sentimental way, you know, really as she is. 5 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,600 MAN: I'd like to hear what Bobby Tucker said. What did he say? 6 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,700 WOMAN: I can't say. You can give me an idea. I can't. 7 00:00:46,700 --> 00:00:50,000 I never talk and nobody ever hears the tapes. 8 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,500 MAN: Are you interviewing me or am I interviewing you? 9 00:00:52,500 --> 00:00:55,360 When I tell you something you print it! 10 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,640 Billie's dead. You're talking to me now. 11 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,440 MAN: Well, my friend today is a gal who has been singing jazz 12 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,360 for a good many years now, long enough to win for herself 13 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:15,040 the title of the world's greatest jazz vocalist, Miss Billie Holiday. 14 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,440 APPLAUSE 15 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,560 # Hey, there, baby, make up your mind 16 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,400 # Cos I've been waiting such a long, long time 17 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,280 # Now, baby, or never 18 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,920 # I've been so sad and blue 19 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,520 # Now, baby, or never 20 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,520 # I've been so lonesome, too 21 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,640 # Now, baby, or never 22 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,960 # If I mean anything to you 23 00:01:46,960 --> 00:01:50,360 # Now, baby, or never 24 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:52,960 # Cos I've wasted so much time 25 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,080 # Now, baby, or never 26 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,520 # And it ain't no fault of mine 27 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,960 # It's got to be yes or no 28 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,960 # It's either you stay or go 29 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,080 # You can't leave me on the shelf 30 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,920 # You gotta commit yourself 31 00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:18,000 # It's either you will, baby, or won't fall in love with me... # 32 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:23,240 Interview with Sylvia Syms January 20th, 1973. 33 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,560 To the people in our industry, she was the great lady of all time. 34 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,560 She was the queen bee. 35 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,080 # I've been so sad and blue... # 36 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:34,760 Without even trying, 37 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,480 she was the most sensual of all of the lady singers. 38 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,160 # I've been so lonesome, too... # 39 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,040 I saw the whole world in that face. 40 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,240 All of the beauty and all of the misery. 41 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,240 Billie Holiday sang only truth. She knew nothing else. 42 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,760 # Now, baby, or never 43 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,400 # I've been so sad and blue 44 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,680 # Now, baby, or never... # 45 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:03,720 Met her in Philadelphia once. 46 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,560 It was a funny situation because I was very unknown. 47 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,360 I was just a fan and she just kind of lifted up her skirt 48 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,840 and went right into her stocking and took out a bill and said, 49 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:14,280 "Get me some gin, son." 50 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:15,880 THEY LAUGH 51 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,080 # I'm gonna call you once more on the telephone 52 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:23,200 # I'll give it till 12 then I'll be gone... # 53 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,640 In what way do you think of her as being innovative? 54 00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:30,200 Well, the fact that she just told her own story just by being herself. 55 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,760 # Now, baby, or never... # 56 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,320 It must be a pretty interesting story that you're writing. 57 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:36,720 She had a wild life. 58 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,560 # You gotta commit yourself 59 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,920 # It's either you will, baby, 60 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,920 # Or won't fall in love with me. # 61 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,000 I want to know why all girl singers crack up. 62 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:53,880 They all crack up. 63 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,560 When they hit the top, something tragic happens. 64 00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:59,760 I want to know what causes that. 65 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:27,960 ..rather, it is a real-world journey, 66 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,240 an attempt to uncover the true Billie Holiday... 67 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:37,160 ..beyond the romantic myth of tortured artist and helpless junkie. 68 00:04:41,280 --> 00:04:43,720 A myth Billie herself helped create... 69 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:49,640 ..forced, as she was, to play the white man's game in a time 70 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,880 where a woman's voice was second place 71 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,360 and an African-American's barely heard at all. 72 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:05,880 To unravel these myths, I set out to discover anyone I could find 73 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,240 who had a personal association with Billie Holiday. 74 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:21,440 I taped their voices and I started to uncover a person - and artist - 75 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,640 ..apprehended orally - on the road, as it were. 76 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,200 APPLAUSE, PIANO PLAYS 77 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:39,800 # Them that's got shall have 78 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,600 # Them that's not shall lose 79 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:50,680 # So the Bible said and it still is news 80 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:57,160 # Mama may have, Papa may have 81 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:03,440 # But God bless the child that's got his own 82 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,120 # That's got his own... # 83 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,800 The things that I sing have to have something to do with me 84 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,240 and my life and my friends' lives. 85 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,080 They have a meaning. 86 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:22,760 # Empty pockets don't ever make the grade... # 87 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,840 God Bless The Child - I wrote that for my mother. 88 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:29,720 How it came about, I asked Mother for some money. 89 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,080 And she flatly refused me. 90 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,600 Now, I said, "That's all right. God bless the child that's got his own." 91 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,600 I walked out... 92 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,720 ..and it sort of stuck in my mind. 93 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,240 I said, "You know, that's a good title for a song." 94 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:50,880 # Money, you've got lots of friends... # 95 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:58,120 All I had was my mom. I never had brothers or sisters. 96 00:06:58,120 --> 00:06:59,320 I did have a cousin. 97 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,240 We used to stay together as small kids. 98 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,840 How old were you? Eight or nine years old. 99 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:10,080 Her and her mother were very close. 100 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:11,320 They were very close. 101 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:19,240 The area she came up in as a kid, everybody knew each other, you know. 102 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,760 It was just a nice community to live in, even though we were poor. 103 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,600 It was a different type of poor to what they call today, you know? 104 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,200 We made it and we were happy with what we had. 105 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:37,320 # Crowdin' round no more... # 106 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,520 # Rich relations give... # 107 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,800 In the bloom of her youth, she was pretty... 108 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,480 LAUGHTER 109 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,920 # You can help yourself, but don't take... # 110 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,160 People played on her. Did they play on her when she was a kid? 111 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,400 Of course. Who? The men folks. 112 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,080 # Papa may have 113 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:05,960 # But God bless the child that's got his own... # 114 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,360 You hung out with Billie? That's right. 115 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:11,840 You called her Eleanora. 116 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:16,200 That's her name - Eleanora Fagan. That's the name that we knew her by. 117 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:22,120 You never knew the father? No, I never knew her father, no. 118 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,680 Did she curse a lot when she was a kid? 119 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:26,960 Yep. What did she say? What were her favourite words? 120 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:28,640 Motherfucker! THEY LAUGH 121 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,640 Every other word was motherfucker. What else? Cocksuckers. 122 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,000 That was her word - motherfucker, cocksucker. 123 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,360 She would say, "You suck my ass, motherfucker!" 124 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,480 LAUGHTER 125 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,760 A lot of people didn't like being called a motherfucker. 126 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,800 They would beat you up, lot of men... Right there, on the street? 127 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:50,680 Yeah. 128 00:08:50,680 --> 00:08:53,560 You think she liked it? She must've liked it. 129 00:08:53,560 --> 00:08:56,120 But the fellas that liked her, she didn't dig them. 130 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,640 Well, let me ask you something, John. Go ahead. Did Billie... 131 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:05,240 Did she turn tricks? 132 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:06,880 Sure, of course. 133 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,120 During them times, you had to survive, 134 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,120 and she had to survive. 135 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,200 Was she younger than most girls? 136 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,640 No. Girls start young, some of them, you know? 137 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,280 She wasn't like a slut, you know? 138 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:21,800 No, no, no. She just lived fast. 139 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:31,480 # Saddest tale on land or sea 140 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:36,840 # Was when my man walked out on me... # 141 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:41,800 Why did she love the fast life? 142 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:43,440 She liked to be with the boys. 143 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:46,760 What were you doing then? 144 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:48,840 I was pimping. Pimping? HE LAUGHS 145 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:50,520 Uh-huh? Yeah. 146 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,800 Billie liked you cats, right? Yeah, yeah. 147 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:54,360 Well, we all had a lot of money. 148 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:57,720 How rough did you ever have to get with them - 149 00:09:57,720 --> 00:09:59,480 I mean, to keep them in line? 150 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,920 Knock 'em down and kick 'em in the ass! Yeah? 151 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:03,960 HE LAUGHS 152 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,880 How did they feel about that? They loved it! 153 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,440 They'd be so proud of a black eye. HE LAUGHS 154 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,720 "Look what my man done to me!" 155 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:16,800 Why? That's what they liked, baby! Why? 156 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,160 You had to treat them rough. That's the way they liked it. 157 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,840 # My man's gone 158 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:23,920 # I feel alone 159 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:29,280 # I've got those "Lost my man" blues 160 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,200 # He didn't treat me fair 161 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,000 # It's more than I can bear... # 162 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,280 Did you ever hear her sing... Yeah, yeah. ..when she was a kid? 163 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,480 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, she used to sing every night. 164 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:48,040 # I've got those "Lost my man, can't him back again" blues. # 165 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,320 I always knew I could sing cos I always did sing, 166 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,360 but I never knew I could make any money out of it... 167 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:01,160 ..until I was working out of an old joint called Hot-Cha. 168 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,320 MALE INTERVIEWER: Well, now, wait a minute. 169 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,320 It's quite a jump from Baltimore to New York. 170 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,360 Well, it was a jump. 171 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,200 You were 15 years old then, weren't you? 172 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,400 No, I was 14. I beg your pardon. 173 00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:23,600 My first encounter with Billie Holiday was as a listener... 174 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:27,640 ..not as a biographer or critic. 175 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:34,240 Aged 14, I happened to spot an album, The Essential Billie Holiday, 176 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,600 and curiously listened to the voice - 177 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,560 a strange voice that was more real and true 178 00:11:41,560 --> 00:11:43,360 than anything I'd ever heard before. 179 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,120 It told of experiences so deeply felt, 180 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:53,040 wailed huskily from some nether world, that I had no choice. 181 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,120 I had to listen to where that voice was coming from. 182 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:13,560 Linda was my big sister. 183 00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:17,280 And she was my protector and she was my best friend. 184 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,000 We grew up in the Bronx borough of New York. 185 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,800 My father was a labour union organiser. 186 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,320 Our family was Jewish but not religious. 187 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,480 Linda was a public high school teacher, 188 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:43,000 but she had been doing interviews on women and women's rights 189 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,480 as a journalist for Paris Review, 190 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,160 for the New York Times Sunday magazine section. 191 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,600 That's when she decided to start writing a biography 192 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,160 on Billie Holiday. 193 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:59,760 Even though they came from totally different backgrounds, 194 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:01,520 I think she identified with Billie. 195 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,960 I think she felt the pain of someone's struggles. 196 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:10,440 She did not like seeing her as a victim, 197 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:12,720 which I think is the way she had been portrayed. 198 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,200 UPBEAT JAZZ MUSIC 199 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:31,880 I worked with Billie at the Hot-Cha. 200 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,440 It was just like a place you'd go and have jam sessions. 201 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,960 All the bands would come in. 202 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,080 Everybody would get up and do a number. 203 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,720 That was during prohibition in the early '30s. 204 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,800 People was coming from all over the world to see Harlem, 205 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:52,560 because Harlem was Harlem then. 206 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,360 White people were coming up in parties, 207 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,040 big limousines and things like that. 208 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,240 That's where you got all your big money from. 209 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,480 They'd go to the Cotton Club first, 210 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,040 and then they wanted to see a little spice after dark... 211 00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:10,600 ..so they'd come to the after-hour places. 212 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:14,880 What were these people after? 213 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:16,680 They were after a good time, 214 00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:21,760 to hear some risque numbers and enjoy theirselves. That's all. 215 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,680 How did you used to pick up chicks? 216 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,200 I mean, there's been a lot written... 217 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,520 Well, I used to pick them up between my legs. 218 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:29,440 She did it too? Yeah, that's right. 219 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,120 Was she smoking pot? 220 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,440 At that particular time, the only vice she had was smoking reefers. 221 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,160 Nothing else stronger than that. 222 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,920 Hello, Pigmeat! How are you? Why, hello, neighbour! 223 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,760 It is good to see you! Yeah, where in the world has you been? 224 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,360 Someone told me about this girl who could sing so beautifully. 225 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,840 And I went by there to see her and hear her, 226 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:57,680 and that's when I discovered her. 227 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,440 A week or two after, she started coming to the Apollo Theater, 228 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,040 and that's where she made her stage appearance - first time in her life. 229 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,320 And why did you think she was so nervous? 230 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,960 Well, she was stage-frightened. Never been on a stage before. 231 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,760 And a lot of people, they sing in them little small places with 232 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,880 eight, ten, 15, 25 people. 233 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,480 And then when you put them in front a big audience - 234 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,160 1,000-2,000 people - they just freeze up. 235 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,320 Everybody knew she smoked reefers. 236 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,680 In those days, reefers wasn't against the law. 237 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,840 The Apollo was just a haze of smoke. 238 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:35,240 And I'll never forget - 239 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,920 when Billie came out to sing, they put a green spotlight on her. 240 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,240 She stood on a green spot. 241 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,600 And you could see that smoke all over the house. 242 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:44,600 LINDA LAUGHS Must have smelled... 243 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,840 Oh, if you didn't smoke, you had a contact high. 244 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,920 And she stood on that green spot 245 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,680 and she sang, and sang, and sang, and sang. She was terrific. 246 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,240 MALE INTERVIEWER: Tell us something, Billie, about the background 247 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,920 that brought about your interest in jazz. 248 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,520 Well, when I was a little girl, there was a lady on the corner 249 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,400 that had a record machine, and I could hear Bessie Smith... 250 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:13,760 ..and Louis Armstrong. 251 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,280 And I always wanted to sing like Louis Armstrong played. 252 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,560 I always wanted to sing like an instrument. 253 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,400 That was it? 254 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,560 And John Hammond - you've probably heard of him... Oh, yes. 255 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,160 ..used to come up to hear me in Harlem. 256 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,160 And that's how I sort of got started. 257 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,960 Well, I was the first white guy who ever heard Billie. 258 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,960 I was the first one who introduced her around. 259 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:43,520 About the eighth stoop up here is where I first heard Billie Holiday. 260 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,000 It says "Laundry" there, see? 261 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,600 And that's the place where Billie Holiday made her debut, 262 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:54,680 as far as I know, in New York, in about February of 1933. 263 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,360 What did you hear that said to you, 264 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,800 "I have to let the rest of the world know about this?" 265 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,400 I heard a singer who was an improvising horn player... 266 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,200 Horn player? Yeah, well, that's how she sung. 267 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,520 Any specific horn player? Well, I think she liked Louis. 268 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,560 Louis Armstrong? Louis Armstrong, I'm sorry. That's quite all right. 269 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:19,280 And I knew, you know, that these two would...make music together 270 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,240 that was unprecedented. 271 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,600 # When the moon's kinda dreamy 272 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,720 # Starry eyed and dreamy 273 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,720 # And nights are luscious and long 274 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:40,000 # If you're kinda lonely 275 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,240 # And all by your only 276 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,840 # Then nothin' but the blues are brewin' 277 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,400 # The blues are brewin' 278 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,440 # When the wind through the willow... # 279 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,320 I really didn't like girl singers very much, you know, 280 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,920 cos they were, most of them, very corny - except for blues singers. 281 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,200 Blues singers, I loved. 282 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,120 # If love goes a-thirstin' 283 00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:14,360 # Till you feel like burstin' 284 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:18,720 # Then nothing but the blues are brewin' 285 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,960 # The blues are brewin'... # 286 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,800 I persuaded the American Record Company 287 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:30,520 that they should record the hits of the day with a wonderful girl singer 288 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,000 and hit the jukebox trade. 289 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:34,840 I said, "It costs so little." 290 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,880 We would do these records, you see, for less than $300 a session. 291 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,120 # Suppose you want somebody 292 00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:47,400 # But you ain't got nobody 293 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:52,520 # You only got a gleam in your eye... # 294 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,840 At 33, I got her into a studio with Benny Goodman. 295 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,840 It was the first time that Benny had ever recorded with anybody 296 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,880 other than white musicians because he was afraid he'd lose 297 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,560 all his jobs if he was known to record with Black people. 298 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,760 Right. Could you tell me about how that came about? 299 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:12,600 We have to turn off the tape machine. 300 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,720 He slept with Billie. You see, I was one of the people who didn't. 301 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,960 If you went to Harlem just for music and no sex, 302 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,400 it was the strangest thing in the world. 303 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:24,800 And I went just for music. 304 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:44,280 The first time I met Billie was in a place behind the Apollo Theater. 305 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,240 And she asked me to take her home, 306 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,760 because some of her friends that were there... 307 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:51,840 She says, "I don't want them to take me home." 308 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,920 The apartment was in Harlem. That was considered a ghetto. 309 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:03,000 We got there and she asked me to stay with us. 310 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,320 I ended up staying about six months. 311 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,200 Her mother used to tell me about her when she was a little girl. 312 00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:13,720 What would she tell you? 313 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,760 That she was still in love with Billie's father. 314 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,080 And a lot of times when she used to talk about it, she'd cry. 315 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,560 Somebody told me that Billie used to go with girls. 316 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,840 Now, is there any truth in that? Oh, of course. 317 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:34,720 Her nickname, among the men, they called her Mr Billie Holiday - 318 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,440 because she was seldom seen with fellas. 319 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,640 And I will always believe that her mother was the cause of it, 320 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,160 cos she never wanted Billie to get close with any fellas. 321 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,520 She would tell her, "They're no good. 322 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,160 "Now, I heard this about him and I heard that about him." 323 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,760 Her mother pushed that in her mind to be careful - 324 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:57,640 cos they'll break your heart. 325 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:00,680 Just like Billie's father. 326 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,960 What was Clarence like? 327 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,280 Oh, just a happy-go-lucky guy. Yeah? Yeah. Full of fun. 328 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,200 What was his idea of fun? 329 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,840 Oh, loved his booze. 330 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,160 Clarence would drink anything you poured in a glass. 331 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,480 LAUGHS: Is that so? Could he hold it? Oh, yeah. 332 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,560 Did you ever see him drunk? Quite often. 333 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,680 Would he change at all when he was drunk? 334 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,600 No, he would get more happy. 335 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,320 He wasn't violent at all. 336 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,360 Did you ever see Billie with Clarence? 337 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,640 Come to think about it, no. 338 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:41,520 First time I ever saw her... 339 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,400 ..of course, Billie was young, you know? 340 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,240 Carefree, just like a big kid. 341 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,400 Sonny Wright was playing piano. 342 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,120 She was going with Sonny. 343 00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:57,160 What was he like? 344 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:01,240 Sonny was a nice, quiet, very good musician. 345 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:03,760 They were engaged? 346 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,600 Yes. Her mother and I hoped that she would marry him. 347 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,400 But Monroe broke that off - Jimmy Monroe. 348 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:18,000 Did Billie's mother ever say that he was a pimp? Yes. She hated Monroe. 349 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,160 He had stolen her. 350 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,400 And then the next thing I heard, he had her using coke. 351 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,840 Lady and Jimmy used to fight a lot, you know. 352 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:35,440 But I didn't see too much of Lady after...Monroe. 353 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:45,800 Whether the men who Billie went with treated her well or not, 354 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,360 she always chose them for a reason. 355 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,840 They played for her. They protected her. 356 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,480 And, in the man's world of the nightclub, 357 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,800 they allowed her to do the one thing that mattered, which was to sing. 358 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,560 Music didn't bring Billie to Harlem, 359 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,280 but it was her voice that would allow her to escape. 360 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,160 Attention, everybody! 361 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,600 # Now, here's a boogie-woogie solid beat 362 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,320 # Come on, you dancers, on your feet 363 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,640 # The winners get a prize, as you all know 364 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,360 # And we pick 'em by the speed and the class they show. # 365 00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:28,360 Let's go! 366 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,840 MALE INTERVIEWER: Billie, I'm just wondering if you might tell us 367 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,480 how people began to call you Lady Day. 368 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,360 Well, now, that came about with Count Basie's band. 369 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,000 Lester Young, he was a saxophone player. 370 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,440 Lester named me Lady Day and he named my mother Duchess - 371 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,520 and there was Count Basie - so we were the royal family. 372 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,600 I returned the compliment and called him the President. 373 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,400 SHE LAUGHS 374 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,720 And I had some swell cats in there with me. 375 00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:08,360 Beautiful. She was a gorgeous woman. 376 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,240 Was she one of the boys? 377 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,080 She was like a man, only she was feminine. 378 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,280 When you travel along like that with a woman, 379 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:19,960 she becomes just like another man. 380 00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:24,480 Who did she sit with on the bus? 381 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,720 Her and Lester Young would sit together most of the time. 382 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,280 They'd light up, back of the bus. 383 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,480 A lot of people thought her and Lester were lovers. 384 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,600 He wasn't the type that she went for. 385 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,280 And what kind of places were you playing? 386 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,520 Oh, they were the worst. Really? They were the lowest. 387 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,000 We used to have conversations like, "What are we doing down south? 388 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,240 "What are we trying to prove?" 389 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,680 The management made Billie blacken her face? 390 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,120 Yeah, we did. We made her darken down. So, she was light. 391 00:24:57,120 --> 00:24:58,600 How did she take that? 392 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,200 Actually, she didn't dig it. 393 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,440 When I came out on the stage and saw it, I laughed. 394 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,480 It was funny to me. 395 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,400 And then she turned around and called me a motherfucker. 396 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,120 I don't even know what transpired for that to happen. 397 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,760 What would be a good question for you to ask me... You? 398 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:20,880 ..about Billie? 399 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:24,880 She said that you used to alternate riff-raff joints 400 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,520 and then you'd play some big white hotel. 401 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,120 You'd go from one extreme to the other. Is that true? 402 00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:35,040 Well, I don't call no place a riff-raff that pays me. 403 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,640 She said you weren't your own boss, that you had too many managers. 404 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,040 BASIE LAUGHS 405 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,240 It's true? I don't know, maybe. 406 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,080 I ran that through John Hammond. 407 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,560 Was it true that she had to make her face darker... 408 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,840 ..because she was too light to sing with a Black band? 409 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,480 Maybe it happened. See, a lot of these things might've happened 410 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,680 that I didn't know anything about, see? 411 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,960 I always wanted to straighten that out. 412 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,400 I don't know. How do I know? 413 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,040 Are you interviewing me about my band or Billie Holiday? 414 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,000 Both? I can't write about Billie Holiday with your band 415 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,120 if I'm not going to talk about your band. 416 00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:16,200 THEY LAUGH 417 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:17,560 You... Am I? 418 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:19,760 Can I? 419 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,040 My name is Jonathan David Samuel Jones - 420 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,280 professional name Jo, J-O - 421 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,800 and everybody that professes to know her, they knew nothing about her. 422 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,760 All that they knew - what was in it for them. 423 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,200 What happened with her and Count Basie? I mean, why did that... 424 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,160 Count Basie? Yeah. Can't you leave Count Basie alone? 425 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,600 There's no problem. There was no problem. 426 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,240 There was no problem. Why did she leave the band? 427 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,320 She didn't leave the band. She was fired. Who fired her? 428 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,160 John Hammond. 429 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,160 John Hammond fired her? 430 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:58,600 Why? 431 00:26:58,600 --> 00:26:59,800 That's a big question. 432 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,200 If you can answer that, they wouldn't have the UN. 433 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,520 About Basie - why did Billie leave the band? 434 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,480 Well, you see, here's the thing. 435 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,920 There was a real problem with Billie and Basie. 436 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,920 She wasn't making enough money. 437 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,000 Simple as that. And this is really one of the principal reasons 438 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,920 why she left the band. 439 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,960 How much was she getting paid, then? 440 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,840 I think 100 and a quarter a week, something like that, at the most. 441 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,080 She quit? 442 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,360 Oh, she did. 443 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,520 John Hammond wanted her to sing the blues. 444 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,160 So, since she wouldn't sing the blues, he fired her. 445 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,160 How can I verify it? 446 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,880 His number's L0803 4173. 447 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,920 Call him up and I'll tell him and I'll give him another heart attack. 448 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:48,600 Call him! 449 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,400 I'm... Call him! I'm not going to call him now... Call him! 450 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,480 Listen, I'm going to call him... I'm going to ask... No, call him! 451 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,640 You know I'm not going to get through to him. 452 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,560 I guess you've heard by now that Jo Jones said that you fired her... 453 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,840 Oh, absolute lie. 454 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,040 Absolute lie! ..because she wouldn't sing the blues. 455 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,120 How can Jo say a thing like that? 456 00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:13,000 Did you talk to Jo? Yeah. 457 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,000 Jo said I...? Oh, Jo's out of his mind! 458 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,280 He's a garbage-mouthed liar. Why didn't...? 459 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,560 He fired her because he wanted her to sing the blues, 460 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,760 he wanted her to be a coloured mammy! 461 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,960 Didn't I tell you not to let me catch you at that piano again? 462 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:27,400 I'm sorry, ma'am. 463 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,200 If I'd have heard you coming, I wouldn't have let you catch me. 464 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,640 Let me fix you a good hot tub... 465 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,520 Now I'm telling you this in front. 466 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,320 He wanted her to just be "Yessa, boss! Yessa, boss!" 467 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,560 And everybody talk about, "He's the great white father." 468 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,240 Don't give me that shit! 469 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,240 But nobody got guts enough to tell the people that, 470 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,640 because they're afraid of him. 471 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,280 The problem with Jo is, you know, 472 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:52,400 that Jo is not always the most reliable... I just saw Jo last week. 473 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,840 I'll have to ask him how he could possibly have given you... Sure. 474 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:57,840 Do indeed. 475 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,480 It happened. That was a long time ago. 476 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,120 How in the hell can I tell you what happened... How can I prove it? 477 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,360 You don't have to prove it. It happened! 478 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,360 I believe you... No, it happened! OK! 479 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,680 But when I put something in print... I don't give a damn. 480 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,080 Put it in print and quote me. It happened! 481 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,600 So why... So don't you ask... If you interviewing me 482 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,560 and when I tell you something, you print it! 483 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,840 Are you interviewing me or am I interviewing you? 484 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,680 Where the hell were you 30 years ago? I was in a crib. 485 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,360 MYRA: Linda was very conscious of being a white writer 486 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,440 and writing about Billie. 487 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,000 JO JONES: You don't know what we was going through... 488 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,800 What were you going through? We was going through hell! 489 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,560 Miss Billie Holiday didn't have the privilege of using a toilet 490 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,520 in a filling station. 491 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,160 The boys at least could go out in the woods. 492 00:29:58,360 --> 00:29:59,800 You don't know anything about it 493 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,160 because you've never had to subjugate yourself to it. 494 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,720 Never. 495 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,720 Most neighbourhoods where we were were segregated by race... 496 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,600 ..but we were very much aware of what was happening in the world 497 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,240 racially. 498 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,360 The violations of people's civil rights... 499 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,800 ..the horrors of dogs attacking Black people in the South. 500 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,840 The African-American struggle resonated with Linda. 501 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,400 And it was always an outrage to Linda 502 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,200 that people walked in the front door who were coming to see her 503 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,240 but Billie Holiday had to walk through the kitchen to perform. 504 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,800 MALE INTERVIEWER: This is no secret, of course, 505 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,240 that wherever musicians gather and talk about singers, 506 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,120 they generally elect you as their favourite. 507 00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,520 Now, who is your favourite? 508 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,160 Well, I like Billy Eckstine's singing very much. 509 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:05,600 He has sweet sounds. 510 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:15,120 # Alone from night to night, you'll find me... # 511 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,600 Jo Jones told me that Hammond fired Billie from the Basie Band 512 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,640 cos she wouldn't sing the blues. 513 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,360 Is that the truth? It's probably, sure... It could be? 514 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,640 She never told you...? No, she never told me, 515 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,120 but I want to be known as a singer who can sing the ballad, 516 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,200 who can sing up-tempo things. 517 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,840 Don't tell her to become a blues singer - 518 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,600 that that's all I can do is blues. And that's... That's what they did! 519 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,160 Did you two ever talk about this? We would've had to. 520 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,800 See, now, you've got the misconception 521 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:45,800 that Black is the blues? 522 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:46,840 Sure. 523 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,480 It seems as if the people who were running the recordings were white - 524 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,280 and I mean the powers, the agents - 525 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,040 but let's say seven-eighths of the musicians were Black. 526 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,680 You see what people do to suppress you, 527 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,800 the frustration of what connected with Black performers... 528 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,960 ..the difference of being "a Black star" 529 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,400 in relationship to being "a star". 530 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,480 Billie Holiday - she's a Black singer. 531 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,760 Billy Eckstine - "Oh, you mean the Black singer." 532 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,160 And not Peggy Lee, she's a "Slav singer", 533 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,600 or Barbra Streisand, she's a "Jewish singer". 534 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,640 Not that. You don't get that. 535 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,480 Get a load of the critics for God's sake, 536 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,160 the people who judge our music as being good or bad. 537 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,040 There isn't a Black critic. 538 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,480 There never was a Black critic in swing music. Why? Why? 539 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,200 Because of the power structure is such that you never got a chance. 540 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:47,480 You had all white critics to decide whether or not you were good or bad. 541 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,520 It's a pleasure, always, to welcome Mr Billy Eckstine. 542 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,520 APPLAUSE 543 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:54,800 Black people get bugged... 544 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,720 I think this is one of the most ironic things, 545 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,520 that a man named Paul Whiteman was known as the King of Jazz. 546 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,800 Paul Whiteman was a white man. And jazz is... 547 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,640 Benny Goodman was the King of Swing. 548 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,680 LAUGHTER 549 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:16,480 She used to laugh at the fact that Benny Goodman was King of Swing. 550 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,440 Paul Whiteman, King of Jazz? 551 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,880 You know, these things, they're absolutely comedic! 552 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,040 Look at Tom Jones. 553 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,720 Tom Jones openly says that he got his start from Otis Redding, 554 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,040 Jackie Wilson, from Chuck Berry, 555 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,160 and he started learning how to sing ballads by listening to my records. 556 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,640 Now, all four of us that they named - where's ours? 557 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,360 Where's our compensation? 558 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:42,640 Where's your payday? 559 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,120 MALE INTERVIEWER: The most remarkable thing 560 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,680 about jazz performers, you're way ahead of so many of the rest of us 561 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,120 when it comes to desegregation. 562 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,160 Why is it that the colour thing has not ever really been 563 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,800 that important with musicians? 564 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,440 Well, I guess we have more nerve than other people 565 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,880 and we get a chance to meet bigger people. 566 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,240 Who was it that brought about the job you did with 567 00:34:18,240 --> 00:34:20,120 Artie Shaw in the old days? Remember? 568 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,640 Well, Artie Shaw. 569 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,800 He asked me if I wanted a job. 570 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,440 So, I says, "Yeah, I want a job." 571 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,160 But there was still a policy of no coloured singers being with 572 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,200 a white organisation. Would you tell that story to us now? 573 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,440 Well, I'd rather not. 574 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,720 I first met Billie back in around 1930. 575 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:45,440 Billie was just a young kid then, 576 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,240 and I was almost as hungry in those days as she was. 577 00:34:48,240 --> 00:34:51,080 I remember saying to her one day, "Billie, if I ever make the grade 578 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,160 "and get a band of my own, you're going to sing with it." 579 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,240 And, sure enough, that's what happened. 580 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,120 Do you remember when Billie first came to sing? 581 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,680 To the best of my knowledge that would have been 582 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,000 in either '36 or '37. 583 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,560 We were a travelling group of minstrels. 584 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,000 We got on a bus and travelled 300 miles... 585 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,680 ..and the way we carried it out was part of the life. 586 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,000 Did Billie ever have any trouble as a Black singer with a white band? 587 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,240 Yes. The normal kind of problems that would exist 588 00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:29,520 with any Black person in those days. 589 00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:34,640 She was remarkable in that she was a trailblazer 590 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,200 without really... Being conscious of making it... 591 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,000 Wasn't making it a thing or anything. 592 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,360 Today it's hard to even describe the climate, 593 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,840 you know, like waitresses refusing to serve her. 594 00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:51,800 After we would eat, she always ordered an extra hamburger 595 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,640 and she put that in her purse, because she never knew 596 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,920 when she would not be able to be served. 597 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,400 The incidents concerning Billie were mostly concerning 598 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,080 finding a place to stay, wherever we went. 599 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,640 The usual racial problem. 600 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,360 Especially if you're a Black woman travelling with a white band. 601 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,200 We'd get in in the early morning hours, you see, 602 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,840 and many times she either slept in the car or the bus or wherever. 603 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,320 And where would you go? 604 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,520 To a hotel. How did she take it? 605 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,760 Billie was kind of sensitive. 606 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,200 Well, not kind of, she was extremely sensitive. 607 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,880 Do you remember an incident by any chance when you first hit Kentucky 608 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,520 and the sheriff came up to the bandstand and said, 609 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,600 "What's that Black bitch going to sing?" 610 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,280 There was a brawl or something? 611 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,240 Oh, there was a hell of a fight, I remember. 612 00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:49,120 I think somebody was calling her nigger or something, I don't know. 613 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,120 I hit somebody over the head... 614 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,760 When we got to the Lincoln hotel in New York, 615 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,880 which began our so-called big break, 616 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:07,000 they didn't allow a coloured, Black girl to sing. 617 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,960 It was just one of those things, a sacrifice there, 618 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:12,520 it had to be Billie. 619 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,200 She just kind of left, she just quit. 620 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,760 Did anybody blame Artie Shaw for staying 621 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,960 when Billie really couldn't stay there? 622 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,680 Well, he didn't fire her. She left on her own. 623 00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:26,840 She had a lot of pride. 624 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,960 And how did she take it? Philosophically, I guess, 625 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,360 in her vulgar language method. 626 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:35,400 HE LAUGHS 627 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,880 If she had other words at her disposal, she would have used them. 628 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,960 The only words she could speak were those in the song. 629 00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:49,000 This beautiful soul she had that she could only do 630 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,160 by expressing herself singing. 631 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,960 And now a little tune written especially for me, Strange Fruit. 632 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,840 # Southern trees 633 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:25,920 # Bear a strange fruit 634 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,320 # Blood on the leaves 635 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,280 # And blood at the root 636 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,360 # Black bodies swingin' 637 00:38:42,240 --> 00:38:45,280 # In the Southern breeze 638 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,320 # Strange fruit hangin' 639 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:55,040 # From the poplar trees... # 640 00:38:57,240 --> 00:39:01,040 About '39, she actually was a Columbia artist 641 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,560 and they gave me permission to record Strange Fruit, 642 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,480 which they didn't want to record. 643 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,040 Why not? 644 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,680 Because of the social content of it, I guess, 645 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:17,360 and how unusual it was to do a protest song. 646 00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:24,280 That was the thing that made all the publicity and noise. 647 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,320 # Pastoral scene 648 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,160 # Of the gallant South 649 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,120 # The bulgin' eyes 650 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,320 # And the twisted mouth... # 651 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,240 It was actually a shocking piece of material. 652 00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:48,680 She would come close to breaking up when she was singing Strange Fruit. 653 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,080 You hear the crack in the voice. 654 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:55,360 Yeah, also in the eyes, and almost a reflection of what she had 655 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,080 to do in her lifetime in order to make it. 656 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:04,000 The fact that negroes did not have equal chances, 657 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,320 this is something that she felt very deeply 658 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,520 and about the only way she could really crusade 659 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,800 or bring these thoughts to air would be to sing songs like that. 660 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,000 # Scent of magnolia 661 00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:21,760 # Sweet and fresh 662 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,280 # Then the sudden smell 663 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:34,160 # Of burnin' flesh 664 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,400 # Here is a fruit 665 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:44,000 # For the crows to pluck 666 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,720 # For the rain to gather 667 00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:55,680 # For the wind to suck 668 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,600 # For the sun to rot 669 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,680 # For the tree 670 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,720 # To 671 00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:15,000 # Drop 672 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,760 # Here is a strange 673 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,560 # And bitter 674 00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:31,440 # Crop. # 675 00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:42,200 Do you remember the first time she sang that song at Cafe Society? 676 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,040 Sure, it's unforgettable. 677 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,880 Every time she sang it was unforgettable. 678 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:58,280 Soon after the Time Magazine appeared and the caption read, 679 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,680 "Most unusual song ever to be heard in the nightclub." 680 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,000 When she sang Strange Fruit, she never moved. 681 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,080 Billie stood there. 682 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,280 All service stopped at the bar everywhere. 683 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:15,960 And do you remember any time 684 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,760 when anybody might have caused any problems? Oh, yes. 685 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:20,200 I had people walk out. 686 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,560 These were white people? White people. 687 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:24,640 One party after another. 688 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,720 "We come to your nightclub to be entertained, 689 00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:29,520 "we don't call this entertainment." 690 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:37,120 Strange Fruit. "What is that, man?" 691 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,480 And she was fighting equality before Martin Luther King. 692 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:45,760 How? Well, in the songs she chose to sing, exposing discrimination. 693 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,240 Putting it on stage. 694 00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:51,360 They used to have riots when she'd sing that in New York 695 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,720 and that might be why the cops were against her, too. 696 00:42:53,720 --> 00:42:55,400 Not just junk. 697 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:01,840 The Treasury Department intends to pursue a relentless warfare 698 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:07,080 against the despicable dope peddling vultures and public enemies, 699 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,160 and we hope to place the drug addicts arrested 700 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,160 under institutional care. 701 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,680 But not everyone stood to applaud her primal howl 702 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,920 against the bloody history of white America. 703 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:41,000 And her refusal to stop singing it would give vindication 704 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:46,120 to those powerful men already circling the decadent world of jazz 705 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:50,520 in search of a high-profile target to burnish their reputation. 706 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,640 And now that Billie's star shone so brightly... 707 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,480 I need to get myself ready for this. 708 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:11,480 I'll have a couple of bits because if I'm going to talk about her, 709 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,600 I want to feel good. She was something else. 710 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:16,120 Really something. 711 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,480 When did you first meet her? 712 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,080 I met her in 1942. 713 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,640 I was just a kid, I was only like 20 years old. 714 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:31,200 She used to call me in there to add chords to this tune. 715 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:32,720 Where was this, in her dressing room? 716 00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:36,400 Yeah, and she'd stand there with nothing but a pair of shoes on. 717 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,320 That was it. 718 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,040 No clothes. 719 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,480 # My man don't love me 720 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:50,200 # He treats me oh so mean 721 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:57,600 # My man, he don't love me 722 00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:02,680 # He treats me awful mean 723 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,800 # He's the lowest man 724 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,080 # That I've ever seen... # 725 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,360 Her boy was Lester Young. 726 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:21,960 She was always happy when she knew Pres was playing for her. 727 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:28,680 The way he played behind her, 728 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,720 she was just like she was in her mother's arms. 729 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,440 I like Lester's feeling, you know. 730 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,720 But when he first started, 731 00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:44,320 everyone felt his tone is too thin. 732 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,000 I told him it doesn't matter 733 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:48,840 because you watch, after a while, 734 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:50,760 everybody's going to be clapping you. 735 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,280 # He wears high-draped pants 736 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,760 # Stripes are really yellow... # 737 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,120 They had the funniest way of loving each other. 738 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,040 It was brother and sister but it was another thing. 739 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:08,920 Anybody that ever knew him 740 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,440 would tell you he's one of the strangest people on earth. 741 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,400 He was like a visitor, really, 742 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:20,280 and she was, too, so you figure the two of them together is pretty wild. 743 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,600 That was the way it was all the time. 744 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:25,760 But everybody loves a wild woman. 745 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:26,800 THEY LAUGH 746 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,280 # But you're so mean to me, baby 747 00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:37,560 # I know you're gonna drive me away... # 748 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,440 Sang from her crotch. 749 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,880 You bet she had the greatest crotch in life. 750 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,720 Now that I look back, I'm sorry I missed it! 751 00:46:47,720 --> 00:46:49,320 HE LAUGHS 752 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,440 How do you envision her sex life? 753 00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:58,240 It had an awful lot to do with the way she was with everything 754 00:46:58,240 --> 00:47:02,280 she did, so, you look at Lady Day, you've got to include her sex life 755 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:03,960 or you don't look at her. 756 00:47:05,720 --> 00:47:10,040 # Sometimes when you think it's on, baby 757 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:15,560 # It has turned off and gone. # 758 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,360 Even from the beginning, she'd choose me, 759 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,600 because I had admired her so long. 760 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,960 She came down one night between shows and she said, 761 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:39,760 "Pick me up tonight." 762 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:41,760 And as I was walking in the door 763 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,320 she was walking out the door with a chick. 764 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,040 But the next night she collected me. 765 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,880 She would go off with a chick or something like that, 766 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,960 she planned to make them perform like a three-ring circus. 767 00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:59,000 After that, she'd probably go out and get a prostitute. 768 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,240 She was a sex machine. 769 00:48:01,240 --> 00:48:02,280 HE LAUGHS 770 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,320 I know a couple of good friends of yours who are not musicians. 771 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,000 Orson Welles, Tallulah Bankhead. 772 00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,160 BILLIE: Miss Bankhead, I love her. 773 00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,880 She had a lot of affairs with girls at that time. 774 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,640 Tallulah was her girl. 775 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:20,840 Everybody was talking about it. 776 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,240 I was like the relief drummer. 777 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,560 She's like, "I'm going to do four tunes tonight. Start your heart." 778 00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,520 She'd excite you with just three notes. 779 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,720 The bar used to be packed with hero worshippers. 780 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,440 She looked like a panther, is the only way I could describe her, 781 00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,240 with the most unbelievable face in the world. 782 00:48:52,720 --> 00:48:56,520 She really dug being high, that's the one thing I've got to say, 783 00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,280 but I never knew anyone with such a capacity. 784 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:06,680 All the doormen along 52nd Street 785 00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,680 positively knew. 786 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,320 Like what? Like pot. 787 00:49:14,240 --> 00:49:16,960 When we first started going together, 788 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,640 there was nothing but weed involved. 789 00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:22,080 All of a sudden, she started fixing. 790 00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:24,880 Whiskey didn't make her high. 791 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,400 She was using heroin and cocaine at the same time. 792 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,520 And she had a 10lbs candy box, full of pills. 793 00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:38,560 She'd grab a fistful of them. 794 00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,600 And she'd just eat and drink Scotch behind that. 795 00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,840 And she would consume more stimulants than any ten men 796 00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:49,640 and still perform. 797 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,200 She was an extremist. 798 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,320 Why? 799 00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,960 Why all those extremes? Why? 800 00:49:59,960 --> 00:50:02,280 She just wanted to get high. 801 00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:04,440 That's as simple as that. 802 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:05,960 And why shouldn't she? 803 00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:14,720 I'm Jimmy Fletcher, 804 00:50:14,720 --> 00:50:17,720 one of the top narcotics agents in the country. 805 00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:21,200 Billie Holiday, she was kept under observation for years. 806 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,080 She had been raided by police dozens of times 807 00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:27,680 and they'd never found anything. 808 00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:34,120 One day, I was called in for a confidential conversation 809 00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:38,200 with the supervisor and he said, "I just got a call from Anslinger." 810 00:50:41,240 --> 00:50:44,160 He said that Billie Holiday's agent, Joe Glaser, 811 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:46,480 wants a coloured agent to work with him 812 00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,560 on getting a case on Billie Holiday. 813 00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:53,480 You mean Joe Glaser wanted Billie busted? 814 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:55,120 Yes, for her own good. 815 00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,000 He confided in me he'd like to save her, 816 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:00,200 and the only way to save her 817 00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,200 is to have her knocked out by the government. 818 00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:08,880 Why couldn't you bust Billie then, when Glaser wanted her busted? 819 00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:14,000 Well, because she never sold anything, never handled it. 820 00:51:15,240 --> 00:51:18,360 So, what happened? You were following her movement? 821 00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:22,480 That's right, keeping her under observation, night and day. 822 00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,080 And would you say Billie was extremely smart 823 00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:28,840 in protecting herself? 824 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:33,120 Well, she was. The information came that Joe Guy, 825 00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:35,520 during that period when she was going with him, 826 00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:37,560 he bought an ounce every day. 827 00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:41,640 Wasn't Joe Guy a musician? Oh, yes, he played the trumpet. 828 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:47,920 Every day, Joe Guy walked up 8th Avenue, picked up an ounce, 829 00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:51,800 put it under the collar of Billie Holiday's boxer dog. 830 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,080 He'd walk with the dog from way down on Morningside Drive 831 00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:00,520 up to Braddock Hotel. 832 00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:07,440 He lets that dog go and the dog goes all around 833 00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:13,360 to the elevator operator and he'd guide the dog to the top floor. 834 00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:17,640 The elevator operator was in collusion, $2. 835 00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,000 He always got it for looking out for her. 836 00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:25,320 She sailed along without being caught 837 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,440 until that shoot-out in Philly. 838 00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:34,040 Until that shoot-out in Philly in '47, you mean? Yes. What happened? 839 00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:39,120 In Philadelphia, they found 2oz of heroin in the car 840 00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:43,040 but they couldn't get any warrants to make a clean arrest 841 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,080 before Billie got in the car. 842 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,280 The chauffeur, he got a tip-off, 843 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:55,360 he got away, then Billie Holiday's Cadillac was shot up by police. 844 00:52:57,600 --> 00:52:59,240 A lot of bullet holes in it. 845 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,280 She got away and she was headed for the Grampian Hotel. 846 00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:08,160 Washington had wired the New York office 847 00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:12,440 and told them to put somebody on Billie Holiday's tail. 848 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:18,120 And I'm not supposed to make any attempt at arresting Billie. 849 00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:19,960 I'm supposed to tail her. 850 00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:23,000 And she was in the hotel? 851 00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,920 When I arrived, the only way I knew it was the Cadillac 852 00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,520 was when I went around, and saw that there were bullet holes. 853 00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:36,160 And, then, the next day, the arrests were made. 854 00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:44,560 Let me ask you this. 855 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,760 Given the fact that she was so famous, would she have been a target 856 00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,800 because there would have been a lot of publicity for an agent? 857 00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:56,080 Well, not just for an agent. For the Bureau of Narcotics. 858 00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,400 So, then, in that sense, somebody could make a reputation? 859 00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:02,560 That's right. 860 00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,320 Here at Alderson, the system was that 861 00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:21,120 when a person came in who was on drugs at the time, that they were 862 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,200 sent to the hospital and remained 863 00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:25,360 there until they were drug-free. 864 00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:27,480 ALARM BELL RINGS, DOG BARKS 865 00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,480 This prison was segregated as to race. 866 00:54:33,240 --> 00:54:35,600 She really went into the woodwork here. 867 00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,360 She had made up her mind that she was just going to do her time 868 00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:41,400 and get out as fast as she could. 869 00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,680 This was the room she occupied. 870 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:50,160 She certainly was no trouble ever. 871 00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:55,520 She was a generous person, I'd say, in thought, anyway, 872 00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:58,280 and she never bothered anybody. 873 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,720 It's almost impossible to say how quiet she was. 874 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:06,480 To my knowledge, she never sang a note. 875 00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:17,840 WIND CHIMES PLAY 876 00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:23,120 MYRA: It took Linda a long time to work on the book. 877 00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,200 Eight years of her life, and she had some bad times. 878 00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,760 We would get calls in the middle of the night. 879 00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:35,760 I just don't feel like doing it. 880 00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,400 All this should have been done about this woman before she died, 881 00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,400 not after she's dead and everybody's just going through 882 00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:43,160 all kinds of shit about it now. 883 00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:45,440 Because I've had it up to here with that shit. 884 00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:48,360 MYRA: As the time went on, 885 00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:51,360 she kept pushing her own set deadline further and further. 886 00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,160 At one point, I remember we had a discussion and I said, 887 00:55:57,160 --> 00:55:59,240 "You know, maybe it's just time 888 00:55:59,240 --> 00:56:01,840 "to finish it and to leave it imperfect." 889 00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,680 But she couldn't. It was so much part of her. 890 00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:10,560 The reason that Linda struggled so much was that inside her own 891 00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:14,440 head, she heard the voice that she wanted Billie to have, 892 00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,880 but she couldn't get that correct voice on paper. 893 00:56:21,240 --> 00:56:25,960 # Just one more chance... # 894 00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:33,880 MALE INTERVIEWER: Haven't you got a fine piano man of your own 895 00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:36,320 that you bring in there? Yes, he goes everywhere with me. 896 00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:37,560 His name is Bobby Tucker. 897 00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:40,680 Bobby's been with me for years and he is a very great musician. 898 00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,960 After she came out of jail, she was so glad to get back 899 00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,600 and she was so amazed that people hadn't forgotten her. 900 00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:54,160 # Still I'm hoping... # 901 00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:56,480 We did Carnegie Concert Hall. 902 00:56:58,440 --> 00:56:59,760 I remember opening night. 903 00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:02,560 There was a line around the block and the people were standing out 904 00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:06,000 there and really waiting to see what a woman prisoner looked like. 905 00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:11,520 MALE INTERVIEWER What happened in Carnegie Hall? Were you frightened? 906 00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:12,960 I was scared to death. 907 00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:16,320 I waited until the last minute and I said I wasn't going to go on. 908 00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:17,760 There was too many people. 909 00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:21,280 And I couldn't control my knees. 910 00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,520 Well, you could see my knees is going and people didn't know 911 00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:26,320 whether I was going to dance or sing! 912 00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:27,880 THEY LAUGH 913 00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,040 # Still I'm hoping... # 914 00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:39,280 She would walk out, and, before she opens her mouth, 915 00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:42,600 she had everybody in their place. 916 00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:49,480 # I said that I... # 917 00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,320 She didn't really think that she was a good singer. 918 00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,160 She could tell a story. 919 00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:59,080 She had no confidence in her voice? No. None at all? 920 00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:03,080 Actresses, actors, I look at them like, "Ooh!" 921 00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:07,400 And you don't consider yourself in the same league? No! Why not? 922 00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:10,040 You've thought as much about it. You have developed a style, 923 00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:12,440 a technique just as much as they have done. 924 00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:14,360 You please just as many people, 925 00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:18,000 so, why are you not just as much an artiste as any one of them? 926 00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:22,320 Well, maybe I am in my little way, but, my God, they make me cry, 927 00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:23,840 they make me happy. 928 00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:26,880 I don't know if I've ever done that to people, really. 929 00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:29,200 Oh, I think you do, I think you do. 930 00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:34,000 There was a difference between what Ella did and Billie. 931 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:36,200 Ella says, "My man's gone," 932 00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,840 you'd think the guy went down the street for a loaf of bread. 933 00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:44,160 But when Lady says, "My man's gone," man, you can see that cat going down 934 00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:47,800 the street, he's got his bags packed and he ain't never coming back. 935 00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:53,000 She taught me that if you almost laugh out loud 936 00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:56,040 but never quite make it, the audience will laugh. 937 00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:01,480 If you almost cry but never quite make it, the audience will cry. 938 00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:05,680 Would she cry? 939 00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:07,240 She would cry about a lot of things, 940 00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:10,320 but never when she thought anybody was watching her. 941 00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:12,960 # Cried my heart out... # 942 00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:19,680 Nobody can sing like Lady. Not ever. 943 00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:23,520 We worked at Club Ebony together. 944 00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:27,600 That's when John Levy came into the spotlight. 945 00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:52,040 But Billie did not care about such legal considerations anyway. 946 00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:54,400 She did not relate to legal codes. 947 01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:07,960 # It cost me a lot 948 01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:12,800 # But there's one thing 949 01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:14,680 # That I've got 950 01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:20,800 # It's my man... # 951 01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,040 John Levy. The bastard, 952 01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:26,520 the dirty, rotten, stinking bastard. 953 01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:29,240 There is nothing good you could say about that man? Not one thing. 954 01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:31,760 Sweetheart, I try and say something good about, you know... 955 01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:33,760 There's no reason to say anything good about him? 956 01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:36,080 There is no reason to say anything good about him. 957 01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:38,720 # All of this I'll soon forget 958 01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,800 # With my man... # 959 01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:46,360 John Levy's a pimp. 960 01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:50,200 Parasite. I wouldn't want to brush up with him if I had overalls on. 961 01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:53,520 # He's no hero... # 962 01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:57,080 See, these kind of guys with the Cadillac or whatever, 963 01:00:57,080 --> 01:00:59,200 they represent something to Lady. 964 01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,480 They represented what she came up from. Yeah. 965 01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:06,320 # Yes, I love him 966 01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:12,600 # Two or three girls says he 967 01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:17,320 # That he likes as well as me 968 01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:21,360 # But I love him... # 969 01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:23,800 I usually spit after John Levy. 970 01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:28,280 If she asked him for $50, he'd knock her down. 971 01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:31,360 How would he knock her down? With his fist. His fist in her face? 972 01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:32,960 You darn right. 973 01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:34,960 In the stomach. Anywhere. 974 01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:39,120 # He beats me, too 975 01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:45,720 # What can I do? 976 01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:55,120 If she was hooked, she was hooked, and I mean on man, chick, 977 01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:57,520 dope, whatever it was. 978 01:01:57,520 --> 01:01:58,720 She was hooked. 979 01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:02,160 # But I don't care 980 01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:05,840 # When he takes me in his arms 981 01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:11,320 # The world is bright 982 01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:14,600 # All right... # 983 01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:19,280 She's up there singing My Man. She's a masochist, is what she was. Yes. 984 01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:24,560 All she wanted is a guy to just tell her he loved her, you know, 985 01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:27,800 but not all the time, because she digs punishment. 986 01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:31,600 So, when he does say it, it's got to mean something real wild, 987 01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:33,480 like in the middle of something crazy. 988 01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:38,960 # I'm his 989 01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:45,040 # Forever 990 01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:52,480 # More. # 991 01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:56,200 APPLAUSE 992 01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:59,640 Probably late '49, I was playing trombone. 993 01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:01,840 It was like my first time on the road. 994 01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:05,000 Were you the only two women on the tour? 995 01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:06,760 Yes. 996 01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:08,840 She was with John Levy at that time. Mm-hm. 997 01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:14,880 They didn't get along too well. They had fights, you mean? 998 01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:17,400 Yeah, they had a couple of good ones, yeah. 999 01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:19,560 One started on the bus. 1000 01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:22,000 Like, I as I say, I climbed, I tried to get under a seat. 1001 01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:25,400 The other one was in the hotel. 1002 01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:29,360 She hit him over the head with a Coke bottle or something 1003 01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:30,760 and kind of laid his head open. 1004 01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:34,000 And they both went to the hospital. 1005 01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:39,400 Billie Holiday's man at that time, 1006 01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:42,800 Johnny Levy, had been an informant since 1934. 1007 01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:46,240 He wanted to get rid of Billie Holiday. 1008 01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:49,240 Why did he want to get rid of her? 1009 01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:53,320 He said, "Goddamn it, I sometimes feel like killing her." 1010 01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:56,040 He couldn't control her. He couldn't control her. 1011 01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:00,640 So, he had had this fella to call me, 1012 01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:05,680 "Tell Agent Fletcher that Johnny Levy and Billie Holiday 1013 01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:08,720 "are smoking pot in the hotel." 1014 01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:13,200 Was this before they were arrested in San Francisco? 1015 01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:15,040 Yes. Much before? 1016 01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:18,400 I'd say two weeks before she went out there. 1017 01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:23,840 Ordinarily, I wouldn't have bothered about Billie Holiday. 1018 01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:25,000 Why not? 1019 01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:28,560 She was not a trafficker, she was an addict. 1020 01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:34,960 I knew that she'd been arrested before. 1021 01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:38,600 Every time she'd been arrested, she generally dodged the questions. 1022 01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:44,480 And Billie was fond of her way of living, 1023 01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:46,440 with her fancy coats, 1024 01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:48,160 and fancy automobiles, 1025 01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:50,360 and the jewellery, and the diamonds, 1026 01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:52,320 and she was the big lady. 1027 01:04:56,880 --> 01:05:03,000 One Saturday morning, I found out that she was living in the hotel, 1028 01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:06,000 and that's why I took in a couple of policemen with me. 1029 01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:08,240 To help kick in the door. 1030 01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:14,760 And we both reached the bathroom at about the same time. 1031 01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:19,000 She'd more or less tried to throw the stuff into the open toilet. 1032 01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:23,440 We arrested them both. 1033 01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:25,840 We charged them with the possession of opium. 1034 01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:36,040 Do you think Billie was a victim of the federal agents? 1035 01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:38,920 You victimise yourself by becoming a junkie. 1036 01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:42,360 Was she a victim? 1037 01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:44,680 She was victimised by Johnny Levy. 1038 01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:49,920 Later on, she had sense enough to leave him. 1039 01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:54,960 Billie was indicted. 1040 01:05:56,800 --> 01:05:58,840 As soon as she was arrested, 1041 01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:01,520 I immediately put her in Twin Pines, 1042 01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:05,080 kept her under full psychiatric controls for five days, 1043 01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:08,160 and proved that she was not addicted to an opiate. 1044 01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,720 You made observations. You have to, especially if you're psychotic. 1045 01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:14,880 But what's the matter with the way she is? 1046 01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:18,120 What drove her to a series of John Levys and heroin? 1047 01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:20,600 I don't like to use this word, 1048 01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:22,400 and it's not a good word, but... 1049 01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:25,440 ..she's really a psychopath. 1050 01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:28,080 A psychopath. 1051 01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:32,320 An impulse-driven, 1052 01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:35,280 strong, talented, 1053 01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:37,440 but not dependable individual... 1054 01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:42,800 ..who does this because this is what she has impulse to do right now 1055 01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:44,560 and she gets into all sorts of trouble. 1056 01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:47,320 A psychopath. 1057 01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:52,760 Key to this thing is the impulse. 1058 01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:54,920 Was there any perversity in this? 1059 01:06:56,320 --> 01:06:58,720 When I said perversity, I meant a demon. 1060 01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:02,200 You know, there's a demon sometimes eating away 1061 01:07:02,200 --> 01:07:04,960 that kind of forces you to do something 1062 01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:07,880 that's going to elicit some kind of shock. 1063 01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:12,760 And this is something I can identify with. 1064 01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:22,920 As Linda went on, the identification became much more intense. 1065 01:07:25,360 --> 01:07:29,080 Like Billie, she was attracted to men who were not 1066 01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:32,320 bringing out, necessarily, the best in her. 1067 01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:34,920 She was married twice and she was divorced twice. 1068 01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:39,800 While she was writing the book, 1069 01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:43,280 Linda became close with some of the people she interviewed. 1070 01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:52,400 One time, we were in our apartment, 1071 01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:55,960 the phone rang and a man's voice said, "Can I speak to Linda?" 1072 01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:58,440 Of course I asked, "Who's calling?" 1073 01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:00,280 And he said, "Well, it's Bill." 1074 01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:05,800 Linda said, "You know who Bill is?" I said, "No." 1075 01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:08,360 And she says, "Well, you do. It's Count Basie." 1076 01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:13,440 Ask me a question about Bill. 1077 01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:16,560 Me ask you a question about him? Yes. 1078 01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:19,000 THEY LAUGH 1079 01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:21,720 Why don't you call me William? 1080 01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:23,640 Because you asked me to call you Bill. 1081 01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:26,000 I didn't ask you, I mean... You commanded me. 1082 01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:29,360 Well, all I'd say, I mean, my close friends call me Bill. 1083 01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:31,600 You want to work with me and write my book? 1084 01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:33,840 Bill, if I worked with you to write your book, 1085 01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:36,480 we'd have such terrible fights. That's right. 1086 01:08:36,480 --> 01:08:40,360 I don't know, I don't think so. I don't know, because, you know... 1087 01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:43,400 I'm not really actually hard to get along with. 1088 01:08:43,400 --> 01:08:45,720 I don't really feel you are. 1089 01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:48,240 No, but you're a pretty smart cookie. 1090 01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:54,000 MYRA: I'm not sure what Linda's relationship 1091 01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:55,800 with Basie actually was. 1092 01:08:58,440 --> 01:09:02,160 It's an impression that there was a closeness based on 1093 01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:03,880 what she had said to me. 1094 01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:13,440 I understand that one of the reasons for your present happiness 1095 01:09:13,440 --> 01:09:14,840 is your husband Louis. 1096 01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:17,720 How does he react to some of your more suggestive lyrics? 1097 01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:19,960 Oh, no, he tells me how to sing 1098 01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:22,000 and what to sing, and, oh, 1099 01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:24,080 it's just getting terrible. SHE LAUGHS 1100 01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:26,440 But your husband's right here in the dressing room with us, 1101 01:09:26,440 --> 01:09:28,480 Mr Louis McKay. 1102 01:09:28,480 --> 01:09:32,520 Mr McKay, tell us something about how you two work together. 1103 01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:34,960 Well, we have something like a private agreement. 1104 01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:38,000 I handle all the business, she handles all the music. 1105 01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:40,480 Because she tells me, sometimes, "You stay out of my music." 1106 01:09:40,480 --> 01:09:42,680 And does she stay out of the business? She does. 1107 01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:44,280 Then you get along fine. 1108 01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:46,920 INTERVIEWER: What else are you doing besides the records 1109 01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:49,240 and touring around the spots? Well, to be honest, 1110 01:09:49,240 --> 01:09:52,360 my dream is supposed to come true, I'm going to Europe. 1111 01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:54,280 Oh, you've never been there? No. 1112 01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:56,360 Oh, well. I've always wanted to go. 1113 01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:04,200 This is a vacation trip to Europe, or...? No, honey. No vacations. 1114 01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:06,040 All work. 1115 01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:09,840 # Are the stars out tonight? 1116 01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:13,160 # I don't know if it's cloudy or bright 1117 01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:18,640 # For I only have eyes for you, dear 1118 01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:22,040 # The moon may be high 1119 01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:24,720 # Millions of people go by 1120 01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:29,600 # But I only have eyes for you 1121 01:10:31,480 --> 01:10:36,720 # I don't know if we're in a garden 1122 01:10:38,120 --> 01:10:42,560 # Or on a crowded avenue 1123 01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:46,080 # You are here, so am I 1124 01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:49,720 # Millions of people go by 1125 01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:53,400 # But they all disappear from view 1126 01:10:54,600 --> 01:11:00,360 # And I only have eyes for you... # 1127 01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:03,400 What is it that you're after out of life yourself, Billie, now? 1128 01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:05,080 Right now? Yeah. 1129 01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:07,520 I want a beautiful home 1130 01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:09,600 and I want kids. 1131 01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:11,440 That's what I want. 1132 01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:15,920 She'd always wanted some, they never ever had any. 1133 01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:18,960 I just had two girls there. 1134 01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:23,440 She used to love to paint their fingernails, 1135 01:11:23,440 --> 01:11:26,880 and she would sing to them, and she would take them shopping. 1136 01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:31,560 # You are here, so am I 1137 01:11:31,560 --> 01:11:34,280 # Millions of people go by 1138 01:11:35,480 --> 01:11:40,080 # But they all disappear from view... # 1139 01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:43,920 It was her dream to retire someday 1140 01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:47,160 with enough money to buy a big spread 1141 01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:50,680 and have a home for children who had no mother and father. 1142 01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:54,000 # And I only have eyes 1143 01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:57,080 # Big, bulging eyes 1144 01:11:57,080 --> 01:12:02,040 # Great big eyes for you. # 1145 01:12:02,040 --> 01:12:05,160 But he was just using her to get control of her money. 1146 01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:06,800 APPLAUSE 1147 01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:18,520 I was with her doing the return to New York. 1148 01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:21,160 This was a tremendously big concert. 1149 01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:23,960 I'm sure you've been told all the people that were on it. 1150 01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:26,600 Duke Ellington's Orchestra, Sarah Vaughan, 1151 01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:28,840 Bird, Chris, 1152 01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:30,240 Count Basie. 1153 01:12:31,400 --> 01:12:36,160 But it seems like everybody there had come to see one person. 1154 01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:39,440 And I'd like you to know America's number one song starlet, 1155 01:12:39,440 --> 01:12:41,200 Miss Billie Holiday. 1156 01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:43,640 CHEERING AND APPLAUSE 1157 01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:45,280 She closed the show. 1158 01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:51,240 And she sang encore after encore after en... 1159 01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:55,000 If we stayed on that stage an hour, we stayed on an hour and 30 minutes. 1160 01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:03,640 Well, after the concert was the fight. 1161 01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:08,360 Louis began to loudmouth 1162 01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:10,520 and that started a big rumble, 1163 01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:13,120 which then we all ended up out in the street. 1164 01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:17,800 And he literally knocked her across the street. 1165 01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:23,040 But she loved that punishment. 1166 01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:25,240 This is the nature of a masochist. 1167 01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:30,600 After he had just beaten her severely and kicked her, 1168 01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:33,680 they said after they have gotten the punishment, then they have been 1169 01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:39,440 so completely gratified, then they can just enter into a sexual tryst. 1170 01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:47,440 But Louis had a technique going of trying to control her mind. 1171 01:13:47,440 --> 01:13:49,480 It was like hypnotism. 1172 01:13:49,480 --> 01:13:53,400 "You can't depend on anyone but me, you have no friends but me, 1173 01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:56,800 "you must stay in here and keep yourself away from everyone but me." 1174 01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:02,280 There were days when he just kept her under lock and key. 1175 01:14:06,520 --> 01:14:09,640 He'd boss her around and tell her 1176 01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:12,280 she couldn't do this, she couldn't do that. 1177 01:14:12,280 --> 01:14:14,880 And she wanted something to eat, and he said, "Go on to bed. 1178 01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:17,560 "You don't need anything to eat." 1179 01:14:17,560 --> 01:14:19,440 And she'd lost so much weight. 1180 01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:22,160 She looked like a skeleton. 1181 01:14:25,440 --> 01:14:27,360 If you were to talk to Louis, 1182 01:14:27,360 --> 01:14:29,680 he would probably tell you an entirely different story. 1183 01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:31,280 He's a pathological liar. 1184 01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:35,160 He would probably ask for money. 1185 01:14:36,760 --> 01:14:39,240 There was a time he came up to the apartment after 1186 01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:40,720 he hit her on the head. 1187 01:14:40,720 --> 01:14:43,040 You said he hit her on the head with a telephone? 1188 01:14:43,040 --> 01:14:45,320 Yeah, yeah. "I locked her in my bathroom." 1189 01:14:45,320 --> 01:14:47,960 He came in and he said, "I've got a gun here." 1190 01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:51,760 I don't want to put this on tape. 1191 01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:54,280 TAPE REWINDS 1192 01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:57,760 You see, I can't write, whether you're telling me something 1193 01:14:57,760 --> 01:15:01,000 about Louis or not. I can't say it, write it, 1194 01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:05,440 because I'm liable and he's alive and he's tough. 1195 01:15:05,440 --> 01:15:07,080 I'm in trouble, not you. 1196 01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:18,040 In the process of interviewing for the book... 1197 01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:19,840 ..Linda had been threatened... 1198 01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:24,040 ..by people within the world that she was travelling. 1199 01:15:26,440 --> 01:15:29,000 I don't know why she was threatened. 1200 01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:31,640 She was a journalist, she was interviewing. 1201 01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:35,560 But I think the threat was personally motivated. 1202 01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:42,840 At times, she said there was discomfort with how 1203 01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:48,120 she was spoken to in terms of having a relationship with Basie. 1204 01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:53,440 I don't know whether it was because of the age, 1205 01:15:53,440 --> 01:15:56,240 I just know that she had been threatened... 1206 01:15:56,240 --> 01:16:00,480 ..not by Basie but by some of the people surrounding him. 1207 01:16:02,360 --> 01:16:06,200 OK, uh, I guess we're at an end, Bill. Do you know something? 1208 01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:08,840 This is the end of our interview. 1209 01:16:12,360 --> 01:16:16,120 # I'll never smile again 1210 01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:23,600 # Until I smile at you 1211 01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:32,400 # I'll never laugh again 1212 01:16:34,440 --> 01:16:36,640 # What good would it do?... # 1213 01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:38,880 I got a call from a producer, who asked me 1214 01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:41,160 if I could do an album with Billie Holiday. 1215 01:16:42,400 --> 01:16:44,920 Of course, I was fantastically elated! 1216 01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:50,200 I was in love with Billie, 1217 01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:54,960 not necessarily Billie but somebody. That voice, it turned me on. 1218 01:16:57,000 --> 01:16:59,240 But when I met her, she was repulsive. 1219 01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:03,240 She looked a little scaly, a little dirty. 1220 01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:12,280 With Billie, her heart was just broken. 1221 01:17:12,280 --> 01:17:15,480 # I'll never love again... # 1222 01:17:15,480 --> 01:17:19,120 She was late, and she had a stool and she had the vodka. 1223 01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:23,000 And her legs were swollen right down to her ankles. 1224 01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:25,400 She was in pretty bad shape. 1225 01:17:25,400 --> 01:17:27,440 Everybody in the band wanted to cry. 1226 01:17:29,480 --> 01:17:33,120 We knew this couldn't go on. It was too long. 1227 01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:36,280 Not because she was old but because she had dissipated. 1228 01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:42,480 Photography being my hobby, I had a camera strung on my shoulders. 1229 01:17:44,320 --> 01:17:46,000 I've got a little picture. 1230 01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:49,080 She's sitting there with that glass of vodka. 1231 01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:51,000 It's the shadow of death. 1232 01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:53,640 The shadow of death? The shadow of death. 1233 01:17:56,960 --> 01:17:59,400 Of all the songs you've written, Billie Holiday, 1234 01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:02,800 which one most clearly tells your story? 1235 01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:06,840 Oh, I think Don't Explain. Did you write the words and the music? Yes. 1236 01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:09,320 Both of them? I had to help with it. 1237 01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:12,080 Close your eyes and speak the words, like a poet. 1238 01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:18,240 Um, "Hush now, don't explain. 1239 01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:22,400 "I know you raised Cain. 1240 01:18:22,400 --> 01:18:25,920 "I'm glad that you're back. Don't explain. 1241 01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:30,160 "Quiet. Don't explain. 1242 01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:37,520 "You mixed with some dame. Skip that lipstick. Don't explain." 1243 01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:43,640 # You know that I love you 1244 01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:49,200 # And what love endures 1245 01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:55,200 # All my thoughts are of you 1246 01:18:56,200 --> 01:19:02,080 # Boy, I'm so completely yours... # 1247 01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:05,560 She would call me up, maybe 3:00, 3:30, 4 o'clock 1248 01:19:05,560 --> 01:19:11,160 in the morning, and it seemed like she was almost hallucinating. 1249 01:19:11,160 --> 01:19:14,680 And she would say, "Oh, I'm so scared. I'm here all by myself." 1250 01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:19,440 Like, she would talk to me for hours and tell me 1251 01:19:19,440 --> 01:19:22,400 about how she got started in prostitution... 1252 01:19:23,440 --> 01:19:25,240 ..she was 13 years old - 1253 01:19:25,240 --> 01:19:27,920 and at time that she had her own girls on the street. 1254 01:19:29,520 --> 01:19:31,960 She was terribly worried 1255 01:19:31,960 --> 01:19:34,600 about whether or not God would forgive her. 1256 01:19:35,920 --> 01:19:39,040 # My life's... 1257 01:19:40,680 --> 01:19:45,360 # ..yours, love 1258 01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:49,000 # Don't explain. # 1259 01:19:53,200 --> 01:19:56,320 Everybody wanted something out of her. 1260 01:19:56,320 --> 01:19:57,760 But, then again, this was a woman 1261 01:19:57,760 --> 01:20:00,840 who was only happy when she was unhappy. Does that sound strange? 1262 01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:07,040 She lived in constant fear that she would be set up. 1263 01:20:08,520 --> 01:20:10,560 How much of it was paranoia? 1264 01:20:10,560 --> 01:20:12,600 There was a good deal of paranoia. 1265 01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:16,600 But you do understand why, how she got arrested and made headlines. 1266 01:20:20,920 --> 01:20:24,280 As far as I'm concerned, her use of narcotics was 1267 01:20:24,280 --> 01:20:28,600 just another way of self-punishment. 1268 01:20:31,920 --> 01:20:36,960 She told me that when she was a little girl down in her hometown, 1269 01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:38,800 she was raped. 1270 01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:43,360 Who raped her? 1271 01:20:43,360 --> 01:20:45,480 She didn't tell me. 1272 01:20:45,480 --> 01:20:47,520 There were tears in her eyes. 1273 01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:57,480 She was always a vulnerable child to me. 1274 01:20:59,320 --> 01:21:02,920 I don't think she was ever really in love in her life. 1275 01:21:04,240 --> 01:21:06,960 No-one ever knew what it was. 1276 01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:10,040 She just suffered. 1277 01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:20,240 She said, "Everything you told me has come true. 1278 01:21:21,760 --> 01:21:27,760 "He has just robbed me of every dime. I have no money. 1279 01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:29,440 "I don't have any health." 1280 01:21:29,440 --> 01:21:32,840 And she says, "Now he has a white girl that he's going with. 1281 01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:37,680 "But, you know, I have finally done it. 1282 01:21:37,680 --> 01:21:43,920 "I have filed for divorce, and at last I have put him down." 1283 01:21:47,840 --> 01:21:51,040 The irony of the situation was that before she could sign those 1284 01:21:51,040 --> 01:21:52,880 papers in the hospital, 1285 01:21:52,880 --> 01:21:54,560 she died. 1286 01:21:55,520 --> 01:21:58,160 And then that left all of her estate to go to him. 1287 01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:03,480 She went to hospital on the Sunday. 1288 01:22:03,480 --> 01:22:05,120 She knew she was dying. 1289 01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:08,160 That damn hospital. 1290 01:22:09,320 --> 01:22:11,040 They had her under arrest. 1291 01:22:11,040 --> 01:22:12,600 This woman laying in bed! 1292 01:22:18,320 --> 01:22:22,000 But she did tell me one time that, if they ever arrested her again, 1293 01:22:22,000 --> 01:22:25,640 that she couldn't go through that experience and she'd rather be dead. 1294 01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:33,800 Heaven help the United States of America. 1295 01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:39,200 No innovator was like her. Nobody! 1296 01:22:43,720 --> 01:22:45,200 All she wanted to do was sing. 1297 01:22:47,160 --> 01:22:49,200 She never bothered nobody. 1298 01:22:52,040 --> 01:22:54,600 Billie had her Cadillac and her mink. So what? 1299 01:22:56,160 --> 01:23:00,200 What's wrong with that? Wasn't she entitled to have a Cadillac? 1300 01:23:00,200 --> 01:23:02,120 Wasn't she entitled to have a mink? 1301 01:23:02,120 --> 01:23:05,040 Wasn't she entitled to have diamonds? 1302 01:23:05,040 --> 01:23:08,680 "Oh, you ain't supposed to have that. You're a negro! 1303 01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:10,720 "Stay in your place." You know? 1304 01:23:14,560 --> 01:23:17,520 "All y'all need to do is get some black-eyed peas and rice. 1305 01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:19,200 "That's all y'all need." 1306 01:23:20,480 --> 01:23:22,440 I'm talking about what we went through. 1307 01:23:24,560 --> 01:23:27,840 No vocalist had ever went through what she went through. 1308 01:23:31,280 --> 01:23:33,680 Greatest country in the world - the most stupid, 1309 01:23:33,680 --> 01:23:35,920 the most prejudiced race... 1310 01:23:37,040 --> 01:23:38,760 ..even as of today. 1311 01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:43,960 I'm leaving, quick as I can. 1312 01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:46,480 I will not be a part of this farce. 1313 01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:57,600 July the 17th. That's when she died. 1314 01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:15,120 I closed up Miss Billie Holiday's casket... 1315 01:24:15,120 --> 01:24:17,240 ..and put the flowers on it. 1316 01:24:34,200 --> 01:24:37,080 The question, Billie, that I was going to ask was why 1317 01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:41,120 so many jazz greats seem to die so early? 1318 01:24:44,600 --> 01:24:48,040 The only way I can answer that question is... 1319 01:24:48,040 --> 01:24:50,880 ..we try to live 100 days in one day. 1320 01:24:54,920 --> 01:24:58,120 I myself have tried to please so many people. 1321 01:25:01,040 --> 01:25:03,120 I guess we all suffer. 1322 01:25:40,440 --> 01:25:43,480 It was in the middle of the blizzard of 1978. 1323 01:25:43,480 --> 01:25:47,320 Linda was going to Washington, DC, for a Basie concert. 1324 01:25:49,920 --> 01:25:54,240 And we received a phone call from my mother. 1325 01:25:59,560 --> 01:26:02,320 She said, "You have to come home. Linda just died." 1326 01:26:05,360 --> 01:26:08,480 The police told my parents that she had committed suicide 1327 01:26:08,480 --> 01:26:11,280 and jumped out of the window, and... 1328 01:26:11,280 --> 01:26:13,320 ..we were just devastated. 1329 01:26:15,400 --> 01:26:17,040 And also... 1330 01:26:17,040 --> 01:26:21,040 ..you know, unsure that that was how she died. 1331 01:26:23,680 --> 01:26:25,720 To our knowledge, there was no note. 1332 01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:29,840 She was a writer, and there never was a letter. 1333 01:26:33,760 --> 01:26:37,320 At the time, the Washington, DC, police did not have a great 1334 01:26:37,320 --> 01:26:42,560 reputation for integrity, and we really questioned how much 1335 01:26:42,560 --> 01:26:45,640 they had actually investigated Linda's death. 1336 01:26:49,680 --> 01:26:51,320 My thought is that... 1337 01:26:52,200 --> 01:26:54,160 ..somebody had pushed her. 1338 01:26:56,400 --> 01:26:59,840 I have absolutely no evidence of it... 1339 01:27:01,280 --> 01:27:06,600 ..only what I know of Linda and the surrounding situations. 1340 01:27:08,840 --> 01:27:12,920 When Linda died, it appeared that she had been getting ready to 1341 01:27:12,920 --> 01:27:17,560 go to sleep, because one of her rituals was to put on a face mask. 1342 01:27:17,560 --> 01:27:20,480 When she was found, she had the face mask on. 1343 01:27:25,720 --> 01:27:29,080 # I love you, Porgy 1344 01:27:31,000 --> 01:27:34,800 # Don't let him take me 1345 01:27:35,920 --> 01:27:38,440 # Don't let him handle me 1346 01:27:39,720 --> 01:27:42,480 # And drive me mad 1347 01:27:43,920 --> 01:27:47,840 # If you can keep me 1348 01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:51,240 # I want to stay here 1349 01:27:51,240 --> 01:27:55,120 # With you forever 1350 01:27:55,120 --> 01:27:58,560 # I've got my man... # 1351 01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:03,480 I just thank the Lord that I did know this girl 1352 01:28:03,480 --> 01:28:05,280 when things were different. 1353 01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:07,880 # I know he's coming... # 1354 01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:13,120 And I would pray that she come back. 1355 01:28:13,120 --> 01:28:17,680 # He's going to handle me and... # 1356 01:28:17,680 --> 01:28:19,680 Wouldn't that be nice? Just one day? 1357 01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:21,440 # Hold me so... # 1358 01:28:21,440 --> 01:28:24,440 But you had to get the ticket to get there. 1359 01:28:24,440 --> 01:28:28,600 # It's going to be 1360 01:28:28,600 --> 01:28:31,040 # Like dying... # 1361 01:28:31,040 --> 01:28:33,160 I can't cry about Billie now. 1362 01:28:33,160 --> 01:28:36,480 I don't even cry about her when I listen to her. 1363 01:28:36,480 --> 01:28:39,200 She makes me smile, even sadly. 1364 01:28:39,200 --> 01:28:40,840 # But when he comes... # 1365 01:28:40,840 --> 01:28:42,440 And it's just too bad that it took 1366 01:28:42,440 --> 01:28:45,680 all this time for all of this shit to come up. 1367 01:28:45,680 --> 01:28:51,560 # I'll have to go 1368 01:28:53,000 --> 01:28:57,840 # I love you, Porgy 1369 01:28:59,200 --> 01:29:02,200 # Don't let him take me 1370 01:29:03,360 --> 01:29:06,680 # Don't let him handle me 1371 01:29:07,880 --> 01:29:12,280 # And drive me mad 1372 01:29:12,280 --> 01:29:16,160 # If you can keep me 1373 01:29:16,160 --> 01:29:19,080 # I've got to stay here 1374 01:29:20,400 --> 01:29:23,640 # With you forever 1375 01:29:25,280 --> 01:29:28,480 # I've got my... 1376 01:29:28,480 --> 01:29:35,640 # ..man. # 1377 01:29:37,080 --> 01:29:41,320 APPLAUSE 111294

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