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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:58,091 --> 00:00:59,536 Woman on PA: Ladies and gentlemen, 2 00:00:59,626 --> 00:01:03,506 there is a Brooklyn-bound focal' train one station away. 3 00:02:45,298 --> 00:02:48,472 I moved from New York when I was about 12. 4 00:02:51,371 --> 00:02:54,682 But the city really has been the, um, 5 00:02:54,774 --> 00:02:58,586 I guess, the early inspiration for a lot of my art. 6 00:02:58,678 --> 00:03:01,284 And the first thing, of course, in the city 7 00:03:01,381 --> 00:03:04,089 was that, of course, everything was tall, everything... 8 00:03:04,184 --> 00:03:07,097 So my... My first impulse was 9 00:03:07,187 --> 00:03:10,361 to get on top of a building, 10 00:03:10,456 --> 00:03:14,632 you know, to... Oh, can I get to the roof? 11 00:03:14,727 --> 00:03:17,970 It was just a constant wonderland. 12 00:03:18,064 --> 00:03:22,012 Well, obviously that's what... I paint what is around me. 13 00:03:37,684 --> 00:03:40,631 Yeah, well, I did... 14 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:41,830 Joan Cenedella: I think I was 15 00:03:41,854 --> 00:03:43,390 very worried about your schooling. 16 00:03:43,489 --> 00:03:45,969 I mean, I think I really cared about that. 17 00:03:46,059 --> 00:03:49,131 I also think that I felt competitive with you. 18 00:03:49,229 --> 00:03:50,936 I... you know, I felt that 19 00:03:51,030 --> 00:03:52,941 mother liked you better than she liked me. 20 00:03:53,032 --> 00:03:55,478 All of that stuff. 21 00:03:55,568 --> 00:03:57,445 Well, I just think during your whole childhood, 22 00:03:57,537 --> 00:04:00,381 I was very admiring of you as an artist. 23 00:04:00,473 --> 00:04:03,682 I mean, I understood something about... 24 00:04:03,776 --> 00:04:06,484 Even... even I worried about how you were gonna 25 00:04:06,579 --> 00:04:09,685 get through with things or read books or... 26 00:04:09,782 --> 00:04:11,056 Bob: There was no time 27 00:04:11,150 --> 00:04:14,393 that I remember not wanting to be an artist. 28 00:04:14,487 --> 00:04:17,229 As far back as four or five years old, 29 00:04:17,323 --> 00:04:19,735 I remember looking at "Moby dick," 30 00:04:19,826 --> 00:04:22,397 illustrated by Rockwell Kent. 31 00:04:22,495 --> 00:04:25,032 And I could look at those pictures and thinking, 32 00:04:25,131 --> 00:04:29,375 gee, I want to be able to do something like that. 33 00:04:29,469 --> 00:04:31,107 Jess Korman: I have a wonderful little 34 00:04:31,204 --> 00:04:33,980 etching of Bob's of two people, 35 00:04:34,073 --> 00:04:35,984 obviously a married couple 36 00:04:36,075 --> 00:04:38,681 sitting across a table from each other 37 00:04:38,778 --> 00:04:40,758 and just staring daggers. 38 00:04:40,847 --> 00:04:43,919 I mean, they're probably screaming at each other. 39 00:04:44,017 --> 00:04:47,226 And the name of it is "flowers." 40 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,893 It's funny, it's funny, and it's real, and it's... 41 00:04:50,990 --> 00:04:53,903 I was sitting at the top of the stairs 42 00:04:53,993 --> 00:04:57,406 in a house in Wilton, Connecticut, 43 00:04:57,497 --> 00:05:01,775 and my mother and father were having an argument, 44 00:05:01,868 --> 00:05:03,973 which was nothing unusual. 45 00:05:06,873 --> 00:05:11,288 And, he wanted... 46 00:05:11,377 --> 00:05:14,915 To take my sisters and me to New York. 47 00:05:15,014 --> 00:05:16,459 My mother said to him, 48 00:05:16,549 --> 00:05:18,756 "well, you're not gonna take Bobby. 49 00:05:18,851 --> 00:05:21,127 He isn't eve yours." 50 00:05:23,389 --> 00:05:26,768 So, I find this out at six, and at six, you're not... 51 00:05:26,859 --> 00:05:28,167 You... you know, you block it. 52 00:05:31,631 --> 00:05:36,080 But I had this recurring dream, you know, for years, 53 00:05:36,169 --> 00:05:39,946 and it would come back to me. 54 00:05:40,039 --> 00:05:43,145 So, as you grow up, you're like... you say, 55 00:05:43,242 --> 00:05:46,246 "wow, I'd better watch out in this family." 56 00:05:46,346 --> 00:05:49,156 It's like, "I'm not really one of them." 57 00:05:52,552 --> 00:05:56,432 I thought, growing up, that my deficiency as 58 00:05:56,522 --> 00:06:00,527 a student came from being switched 59 00:06:00,626 --> 00:06:02,435 from being left-handed to right-hand. 60 00:06:02,528 --> 00:06:05,873 Then I couldn't read, and then I had dyslexia. 61 00:06:05,965 --> 00:06:07,945 It was... it was a nightmare for me, 62 00:06:08,034 --> 00:06:10,514 all the way through school, absolute nightmare. 63 00:06:12,939 --> 00:06:14,680 Art, from Clay one for me, 64 00:06:14,774 --> 00:06:17,516 was the special part of life, 65 00:06:17,610 --> 00:06:20,921 the... the part of life that was above the gutter. 66 00:06:30,957 --> 00:06:34,803 Everything about New York fascinated me. 67 00:06:34,894 --> 00:06:39,434 Every Clay was a experience that you would enjoy. 68 00:06:39,532 --> 00:06:40,977 And, you... It was a learning. 69 00:06:41,067 --> 00:06:46,244 I mean, you could learn so much just by, um, 70 00:06:46,339 --> 00:06:49,149 walking around the city, by going, you know, not... 71 00:06:49,242 --> 00:06:50,362 You didn't have... You had... 72 00:06:50,410 --> 00:06:53,448 Neighborhoods had different kinds of food. 73 00:06:53,546 --> 00:06:57,790 You go down to 42nd street, which was so fantastic. 74 00:06:57,884 --> 00:07:00,091 It had the penny arcades. 75 00:07:00,186 --> 00:07:03,190 In the old clays, had a peep show... 76 00:07:03,289 --> 00:07:05,326 Who might be some hookers. 77 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,167 Stephen Geller: Bob is a denizen of New York. 78 00:07:10,263 --> 00:07:13,403 He revels in, uh, in the New York scene, 79 00:07:13,499 --> 00:07:17,504 and the different ethnic diversity. 80 00:07:19,439 --> 00:07:21,817 A New York sense of humor... 81 00:07:22,975 --> 00:07:25,649 The culture of New York. 82 00:07:25,745 --> 00:07:27,190 And, I think it's had 83 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,784 a tremendous influence on his art. 84 00:07:32,418 --> 00:07:34,125 Bob: I think that my art 85 00:07:34,220 --> 00:07:38,100 has a lot to do with, uh, the energy of the city. 86 00:07:39,425 --> 00:07:42,872 And, so, the city was reality. 87 00:08:07,353 --> 00:08:08,423 Man: Are you a member 88 00:08:08,521 --> 00:08:09,556 of the communist party, 89 00:08:09,655 --> 00:08:11,828 or have you ever been a member of the communist party? 90 00:08:11,924 --> 00:08:13,801 Bob: I grew up in a household 91 00:08:13,893 --> 00:08:17,773 fairly well-off until 1950, 92 00:08:17,864 --> 00:08:20,310 uh, I don't know, 1953, or... 93 00:08:20,399 --> 00:08:21,537 Somewhere around there. 94 00:08:21,634 --> 00:08:24,171 My father was the head of the radio writers guild 95 00:08:24,270 --> 00:08:27,274 and Helen Hayes would only use his scripts. 96 00:08:28,441 --> 00:08:29,641 So, we were doing pretty well. 97 00:08:32,178 --> 00:08:34,021 Senator: I have offered to go before 98 00:08:34,113 --> 00:08:36,889 any committee, do anything you ask, 99 00:08:36,983 --> 00:08:40,021 if I can just get you to come down here and take the oath 100 00:08:40,119 --> 00:08:41,962 so we can get the answers to some questions. 101 00:08:42,054 --> 00:08:43,599 Now, you're not... you're not fooling anyone at all. 102 00:08:43,623 --> 00:08:44,733 - Man: Senator... - Senator: I'm sure of that. 103 00:08:44,757 --> 00:08:46,998 Bob: He was asked, "are you now, 104 00:08:47,093 --> 00:08:49,767 or have you ever been a member of the communist party?" 105 00:08:51,731 --> 00:08:53,506 And he basically said, 106 00:08:53,599 --> 00:08:55,306 "that's none of your goddamn business. 107 00:08:55,401 --> 00:08:58,382 I'm an American. I don't have to tell you this." 108 00:08:58,471 --> 00:09:00,280 My father was blacklisted. 109 00:09:00,373 --> 00:09:03,377 He never was a communist, but that's not the issue. 110 00:09:03,476 --> 00:09:04,750 And because of that, 111 00:09:04,844 --> 00:09:07,051 we went into poverty, almost immediately. 112 00:09:07,146 --> 00:09:11,617 So, I grew up in a house where... 113 00:09:11,717 --> 00:09:16,097 The... the strong... The issue was principle. 114 00:09:16,188 --> 00:09:17,326 It was about... 115 00:09:17,423 --> 00:09:20,131 You talk about justice, human rights, 116 00:09:20,226 --> 00:09:22,331 about community, all of that, 117 00:09:22,428 --> 00:09:26,774 and I think that was very, very strong in our family. 118 00:09:26,866 --> 00:09:28,443 The other thing is... I always felt very secure 119 00:09:28,467 --> 00:09:31,004 about the fact, hey, that he would never be 120 00:09:31,103 --> 00:09:33,049 on the wrong side of a... Right. 121 00:09:33,139 --> 00:09:36,177 Of an issue, and... From my point of view. 122 00:09:36,275 --> 00:09:37,310 And. Uh... But, he.. 123 00:09:37,410 --> 00:09:41,859 And, also, I felt that he was not, um... 124 00:09:41,948 --> 00:09:44,189 Devious, or... He was very... 125 00:09:44,283 --> 00:09:45,853 He was who he was. 126 00:09:45,952 --> 00:09:47,898 As a father, he was like growing up 127 00:09:47,987 --> 00:09:49,489 with Hamlet or something, you know, 128 00:09:49,589 --> 00:09:52,763 indecisive, couldn't handle money. 129 00:09:52,858 --> 00:09:55,634 Even when he had money, we were always having to... 130 00:09:55,728 --> 00:09:58,140 Shell in to keep things going. 131 00:09:58,230 --> 00:10:01,370 His mother, my grandmother, 132 00:10:01,467 --> 00:10:04,744 sent me, over the years, $2 bills. 133 00:10:04,837 --> 00:10:06,908 I had a collection of them, on my wall. 134 00:10:07,006 --> 00:10:08,349 I was very proud of these things. 135 00:10:08,441 --> 00:10:09,651 I mean, when I say a collection, 136 00:10:09,675 --> 00:10:14,215 I mean I had like maybe $500 worth of $2 bills. 137 00:10:14,313 --> 00:10:16,816 There's a story of, he was away at camp, 138 00:10:16,916 --> 00:10:19,658 Bob was away at camp. And he came home, 139 00:10:19,752 --> 00:10:21,754 and his collection of $2 bills 140 00:10:21,854 --> 00:10:26,325 that he had saved assiduously for a long time, 141 00:10:26,425 --> 00:10:28,170 that he had tacked up on the wall, had been taken. 142 00:10:28,194 --> 00:10:31,334 And I'm looking at my... Through, into my room, 143 00:10:31,430 --> 00:10:34,570 and there were no $2 bills. 144 00:10:34,667 --> 00:10:38,376 He went in, and he took all the $2 bills off the wall. 145 00:10:38,471 --> 00:10:40,542 He took Bob's money and never paid it back. 146 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,211 It's devastating if you're, like, 14 years old 147 00:10:43,309 --> 00:10:45,789 and you've now amassed this whole thing. 148 00:10:45,878 --> 00:10:47,789 But, then again, I suppose somewhere in my head, 149 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,089 I said, "oh, yeah, but that came from his mother." 150 00:10:51,183 --> 00:10:55,529 Bob's concern about injustice, here and there... 151 00:10:57,189 --> 00:11:01,433 Comes out in his work. 152 00:11:01,527 --> 00:11:03,939 There's a painting he did called "give to Cenedella," 153 00:11:04,030 --> 00:11:06,442 which is his father collecting money 154 00:11:06,532 --> 00:11:09,035 in a street fair in his undershorts. 155 00:11:15,041 --> 00:11:16,645 Bob: The first "saleable" item 156 00:11:16,742 --> 00:11:19,723 I created was called the "I like Ludwig" button, 157 00:11:19,812 --> 00:11:23,157 and it was in competition with the "I love Elvis." 158 00:11:25,317 --> 00:11:28,161 I never responded to Elvis Presley. 159 00:11:28,254 --> 00:11:29,961 It just didn't ring with me. 160 00:11:30,056 --> 00:11:32,559 Beethoven, you know, that's what I listened to. 161 00:11:32,658 --> 00:11:34,968 And I had a perfect audience. 162 00:11:35,061 --> 00:11:38,508 The button became a national seller. 163 00:11:38,597 --> 00:11:40,907 They wrote about it first in the "new yorker," 164 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,537 and then in places around the country and so on. 165 00:11:47,807 --> 00:11:49,946 I sold thousands of these buttons. 166 00:11:53,713 --> 00:11:58,025 So, I... I put myself through the art students league 167 00:11:58,117 --> 00:12:01,291 with the money I made from the Ludwig buttons. 168 00:12:03,089 --> 00:12:04,898 I really didn't know what the league was about 169 00:12:04,990 --> 00:12:06,270 other than it was an art school, 170 00:12:06,325 --> 00:12:07,565 and that they didn't require me 171 00:12:07,660 --> 00:12:09,264 to have a high school diploma. 172 00:12:10,596 --> 00:12:14,134 I walk into the room, and I see all these 173 00:12:14,233 --> 00:12:16,270 other students with pads. 174 00:12:16,368 --> 00:12:18,348 I had a little pad, 175 00:12:18,437 --> 00:12:20,178 and I had a pencil. 176 00:12:20,272 --> 00:12:23,583 I was probably the youngest one. I was 17. 177 00:12:23,676 --> 00:12:26,816 And they were 50-year-old, or 60-year-old. 178 00:12:28,748 --> 00:12:31,922 And all of a sudden, this man walks in 179 00:12:32,017 --> 00:12:34,930 with a gray suit, vest, 180 00:12:35,020 --> 00:12:38,001 white shirt, black, polished shoes. 181 00:12:40,092 --> 00:12:41,537 He went around the room. 182 00:12:41,627 --> 00:12:43,300 I remember, he came to me. 183 00:12:43,395 --> 00:12:47,935 He said I need a bigger pad, I need charcoal, not a pencil. 184 00:12:48,033 --> 00:12:50,741 And he told me just to make as big a drawing 185 00:12:50,836 --> 00:12:52,236 as I could on this pad, which I did. 186 00:12:54,907 --> 00:12:57,114 And then, when he took off his jacket, 187 00:12:57,209 --> 00:12:59,382 and rolled up his sleeves, ready to work. 188 00:12:59,478 --> 00:13:02,220 But that was very serious. 189 00:13:02,314 --> 00:13:03,725 I had no idea. 190 00:13:03,816 --> 00:13:06,797 Certainly didn't know who George Grosz was. 191 00:13:06,886 --> 00:13:08,923 I felt an authority was there. 192 00:13:10,890 --> 00:13:14,463 I felt the presence of someone who was confident. 193 00:13:18,531 --> 00:13:19,566 When I left, I thought, 194 00:13:19,665 --> 00:13:21,736 Hey, I think maybe I had a great Clay. 195 00:13:21,834 --> 00:13:24,212 Maybe... I'll be back tomorrow." 196 00:13:27,973 --> 00:13:30,249 This painting is called "the fight." 197 00:13:32,344 --> 00:13:35,188 I've always like the way the painting was planned out, 198 00:13:35,281 --> 00:13:39,787 with a circle around the fighters, and, uh... 199 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,158 This was outside, when I lived on west 86th street. 200 00:13:44,256 --> 00:13:47,294 It... it had a very New York moment. 201 00:13:48,994 --> 00:13:51,497 It has an emotional quality, and yet, 202 00:13:51,597 --> 00:13:53,406 I'm not sure how much is just 203 00:13:53,499 --> 00:13:57,003 the kind of a humorous aspect of New York. 204 00:13:57,102 --> 00:14:00,379 Here was a street in New York, 205 00:14:00,472 --> 00:14:02,611 and it had obviously been set up 206 00:14:02,708 --> 00:14:04,984 with police barricades. 207 00:14:05,077 --> 00:14:06,954 And there was policemen in the crowd, 208 00:14:07,046 --> 00:14:09,583 holding people back. 209 00:14:11,584 --> 00:14:14,690 Here's the paramedics standing by, and... 210 00:14:16,255 --> 00:14:18,565 She's got the bag flowing in the air. 211 00:14:20,759 --> 00:14:22,761 She's punching him out. 212 00:14:23,896 --> 00:14:25,273 And the crowd is cheering, 213 00:14:25,364 --> 00:14:28,777 and people are holding babies, and... 214 00:14:28,868 --> 00:14:31,405 It had this great energy. 215 00:14:36,275 --> 00:14:38,186 You look at this, and you say, 216 00:14:38,277 --> 00:14:40,484 "something was going on in New York." 217 00:14:40,579 --> 00:14:44,083 When I did the drawing for the painting, 218 00:14:44,183 --> 00:14:47,494 I guess I saw my parents in this. 219 00:14:47,586 --> 00:14:51,898 It's in keeping that my mother would be winning the battle, 220 00:14:51,991 --> 00:14:53,993 if that's my father. 221 00:14:54,093 --> 00:14:56,733 That's probably me. I never even thought of that, 222 00:14:56,829 --> 00:15:00,504 but that's probably me with my artist's smock. 223 00:15:03,535 --> 00:15:05,572 Jess: I think Cenedella was aware 224 00:15:05,671 --> 00:15:10,017 that the world was become a kind of a media circus. 225 00:15:10,109 --> 00:15:12,111 Cenedella just doesn't do realism, 226 00:15:12,211 --> 00:15:16,682 but he does a realism that is... Is always journalistic. 227 00:15:16,782 --> 00:15:19,058 It's people's art. 228 00:15:19,151 --> 00:15:21,062 It's people's art in the same way that... 229 00:15:21,153 --> 00:15:23,292 That it was people's art in Germany, 230 00:15:23,389 --> 00:15:25,391 in George Grosz's time. 231 00:15:25,491 --> 00:15:28,768 George Grosz was a painter in the post-world war I period 232 00:15:28,861 --> 00:15:32,866 in Germany, and his use of satirical elements 233 00:15:32,965 --> 00:15:35,878 in his work to ridicule the powers that be 234 00:15:35,968 --> 00:15:38,471 really anticipated the rise of Hitler. 235 00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:46,085 Bob: I had a political bent 236 00:15:46,178 --> 00:15:49,182 from early on. 237 00:15:49,281 --> 00:15:51,283 In high school, I wrote this article 238 00:15:51,383 --> 00:15:52,418 on the atom bomb drills. 239 00:15:56,755 --> 00:15:58,359 Narrator: That signal' means to stop 240 00:15:58,457 --> 00:15:59,561 whatever you are doing, 241 00:15:59,658 --> 00:16:02,298 and get to the nearest safe place, fast. 242 00:16:02,394 --> 00:16:03,805 First, you duck, 243 00:16:03,896 --> 00:16:05,967 and then, you cover. 244 00:16:06,065 --> 00:16:08,636 They had you scared. The government had you scared. 245 00:16:08,734 --> 00:16:11,578 Hey, you know, you got the atom bomb, and this... 246 00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:13,946 You gotta watch out for the communists, and the... 247 00:16:14,039 --> 00:16:15,109 You know, and... 248 00:16:15,207 --> 00:16:17,881 I felt a need to write this thing 249 00:16:17,977 --> 00:16:22,187 because the atom bomb drills were so stupid. 250 00:16:22,281 --> 00:16:24,887 I had an A.B. Dick mimeograph machine, 251 00:16:24,984 --> 00:16:26,964 and I printed 2,000 of these articles, 252 00:16:27,052 --> 00:16:29,794 and I handed them out to everyone in the school. 253 00:16:29,888 --> 00:16:32,300 And then they had this special assembly 254 00:16:32,391 --> 00:16:34,371 and one of the heads of the school said, 255 00:16:34,460 --> 00:16:38,237 "all you students read it, and you thought it was funny." 256 00:16:38,330 --> 00:16:40,037 He said, "this is not humor." 257 00:16:40,132 --> 00:16:42,840 He said, "this is propaganda!" 258 00:16:42,935 --> 00:16:46,109 We were supposed to sign loyalty oaths in those clays, 259 00:16:46,205 --> 00:16:47,912 which I also didn't do. 260 00:16:48,007 --> 00:16:50,817 My father was trying to get me to sign it because 261 00:16:50,909 --> 00:16:53,082 he wanted me to graduate high school. 262 00:16:53,178 --> 00:16:56,091 On the one hand, he stood by me for, 263 00:16:56,181 --> 00:16:58,159 you know, writing this article, but then he wanted me 264 00:16:58,183 --> 00:17:02,359 to sign a loyalty oath which he wouldn't sign himself. 265 00:17:02,454 --> 00:17:05,094 And, you know, it, uh... Well, I... 266 00:17:05,190 --> 00:17:08,728 I couldn't, I just couldn't do it. 267 00:17:08,827 --> 00:17:10,932 And then I was expelled. 268 00:17:14,767 --> 00:17:16,906 The thing that I would want most was to have 269 00:17:17,002 --> 00:17:20,848 a painting at the metropolitan museum. 270 00:17:20,939 --> 00:17:22,350 The metropolitan, to me, 271 00:17:22,441 --> 00:17:25,615 that was more special than a church. 272 00:17:25,711 --> 00:17:28,885 Right after school, I went three, four times a week. 273 00:17:28,981 --> 00:17:31,723 In those clays, there was no fee. 274 00:17:31,817 --> 00:17:34,388 You just walked in. You had a lot of guards, 275 00:17:34,486 --> 00:17:35,863 and a few people. 276 00:17:35,954 --> 00:17:37,032 And I loved it. I thought it was... 277 00:17:37,056 --> 00:17:38,536 What a great thing. And I would go in. 278 00:17:38,624 --> 00:17:40,262 It was never crowded. 279 00:17:41,994 --> 00:17:43,530 I'd go look at Vermeer. 280 00:17:43,629 --> 00:17:46,041 I'd look at Raphael. 281 00:17:46,131 --> 00:17:48,975 My favorite artists, Grant wood, 282 00:17:49,068 --> 00:17:52,845 George bellows, and they've had legitimacy. 283 00:17:52,938 --> 00:17:54,781 Their art was in books, 284 00:17:54,873 --> 00:17:57,319 in places of respect. 285 00:17:59,244 --> 00:18:02,020 If there's one painting that I was drawn to, 286 00:18:02,114 --> 00:18:05,061 it was Pieter Bruegel's, "the harvesters." 287 00:18:05,150 --> 00:18:08,256 Everything about it... The detail of the wheat, 288 00:18:08,353 --> 00:18:10,924 figures, the way the figures were done. 289 00:18:11,023 --> 00:18:13,162 I could never see enough of it. 290 00:18:16,962 --> 00:18:18,173 Richard Armstrong: A museum's role, 291 00:18:18,197 --> 00:18:20,074 and what's historically valid, 292 00:18:20,165 --> 00:18:23,203 it's really a decision among curators. 293 00:18:23,302 --> 00:18:24,312 And to me, it always looks like 294 00:18:24,336 --> 00:18:27,112 a real exercise in animal behavior, 295 00:18:27,206 --> 00:18:31,677 what's better, and what's less good, and why. 296 00:18:31,777 --> 00:18:33,814 It's almost inexplicable, 297 00:18:33,912 --> 00:18:37,257 and the conspiracy, I think, is genetic, not social. 298 00:18:43,355 --> 00:18:44,561 Bob: The league, you know, 299 00:18:44,656 --> 00:18:46,636 it has a great reputation. 300 00:18:46,725 --> 00:18:48,636 It has history to it, it has that, 301 00:18:48,727 --> 00:18:52,106 but also, they had nude models. 302 00:18:52,197 --> 00:18:57,010 Aside from knowing that now I had a place to learn, 303 00:18:57,102 --> 00:19:00,140 but I also knew that I was gonna walk into a room, and I was... 304 00:19:00,239 --> 00:19:01,274 There was gonna be a, 305 00:19:01,373 --> 00:19:04,820 um, you know, a nude woman. 306 00:19:04,910 --> 00:19:08,517 So, I walk in, and then I see this... 307 00:19:08,614 --> 00:19:11,823 I do see this nude woman. 308 00:19:15,821 --> 00:19:20,167 Now, here she is, 400 pounds, and... 309 00:19:20,259 --> 00:19:22,296 But, fantastic in the sense that, 310 00:19:22,394 --> 00:19:26,342 the perfect model to draw, really. 311 00:19:26,431 --> 00:19:28,138 One of the first things that Grosz said 312 00:19:28,233 --> 00:19:30,179 that I found startling, 313 00:19:30,269 --> 00:19:32,306 "there's no such thing as a line, in nature. 314 00:19:32,404 --> 00:19:34,281 It's all in our head." 315 00:19:34,373 --> 00:19:37,752 He used a phrase that I have always remembered. 316 00:19:37,843 --> 00:19:42,121 He says, "you want to learn to think with your hand." 317 00:19:42,214 --> 00:19:44,490 How... how wonderful that is. 318 00:19:44,583 --> 00:19:45,926 "Think with your hand." 319 00:19:52,124 --> 00:19:55,367 Talking to Grosz, it was never small talk. 320 00:19:55,460 --> 00:19:58,839 You always felt you were talking about something important. 321 00:19:58,931 --> 00:20:02,071 The way we thought was like a total connection. 322 00:20:02,167 --> 00:20:05,876 He always would say that age has nothing to do 323 00:20:05,971 --> 00:20:08,315 with how you relate. 324 00:20:08,407 --> 00:20:10,751 You know, I always tell people, he taught me how to draw, 325 00:20:10,842 --> 00:20:12,602 but he also taught me how to drink, you know? 326 00:20:13,745 --> 00:20:17,522 I had my first beer with Grosz. 327 00:20:17,616 --> 00:20:20,927 I told people he was the first adult I ever respected. 328 00:20:21,019 --> 00:20:24,796 Now, I'm sure my parents were not too happy with that. 329 00:20:26,191 --> 00:20:26,434 We had very intellectual... Parents. 330 00:20:26,458 --> 00:20:30,531 We had very intellectual... Parents. 331 00:20:33,498 --> 00:20:35,243 Right? I mean... I mean they... Well, we had a very? 332 00:20:35,267 --> 00:20:36,905 Intellectual father. I mean-yeah. 333 00:20:37,002 --> 00:20:39,346 I wouldn't say mother was intellectual. 334 00:20:40,672 --> 00:20:42,276 You think so? Um, yeah. 335 00:20:42,374 --> 00:20:45,878 I think she was intellectual in a very... 336 00:20:45,978 --> 00:20:49,323 More human way. I mean, when I say "human," 337 00:20:49,414 --> 00:20:53,055 I mean more, um, gutsy. 338 00:20:53,151 --> 00:20:56,826 You know, a mother, a... you know, someone who's... 339 00:20:56,922 --> 00:20:58,799 I-I saw two different... 340 00:20:58,890 --> 00:21:00,563 I don't know if you perceived it that way. 341 00:21:00,659 --> 00:21:02,104 - No, actually, I didn't. - No. 342 00:21:04,997 --> 00:21:06,476 I look at mother. 343 00:21:06,565 --> 00:21:10,240 When she was drunk, she was the worst. 344 00:21:10,335 --> 00:21:12,246 And when she was not drunk, she was the best. 345 00:21:12,337 --> 00:21:13,577 I mean, that's how I... Mm-hmm. 346 00:21:13,605 --> 00:21:15,915 That's how I see her. 347 00:21:16,008 --> 00:21:18,010 When I was 21, my mother said 348 00:21:18,110 --> 00:21:20,249 I had something to tell you. 349 00:21:20,345 --> 00:21:22,291 She was drunk. 350 00:21:22,381 --> 00:21:25,419 She says, "daddy is not your father." 351 00:21:27,152 --> 00:21:31,567 And I remember very clearly, I said, "oh. Is it Russ?" 352 00:21:33,091 --> 00:21:34,536 Jess: His true father, whom I met 353 00:21:34,626 --> 00:21:37,903 a couple of times, uh, very, very different. 354 00:21:37,996 --> 00:21:41,808 He was a gentleman, an English professor, uh... 355 00:21:41,900 --> 00:21:45,404 Intelligent, soft-spoken way about him 356 00:21:45,504 --> 00:21:46,949 that I... I liked very much. 357 00:21:47,039 --> 00:21:50,282 My relationship with Speirs 358 00:21:50,375 --> 00:21:54,323 was letters, mostly, over the years. 359 00:21:56,381 --> 00:22:00,454 He also did doodles and little cartoons that 360 00:22:00,552 --> 00:22:02,327 he would send me. 361 00:22:04,856 --> 00:22:07,894 I then got a letter from Russ, 362 00:22:07,993 --> 00:22:10,098 and basically what it said, he said, 363 00:22:10,195 --> 00:22:13,870 "it must have been quite a revelation to you." 364 00:22:13,965 --> 00:22:15,911 To find out... But... 365 00:22:16,001 --> 00:22:17,912 and, you know, 366 00:22:18,003 --> 00:22:19,311 and that was the end of it. 367 00:22:19,404 --> 00:22:21,315 And it's bizarre. 368 00:22:24,142 --> 00:22:27,453 To have a relationship with someone 369 00:22:27,546 --> 00:22:30,857 who is your father but you never called him your father... 370 00:22:30,949 --> 00:22:32,724 We never even talked about it. 371 00:22:34,519 --> 00:22:36,362 It just gets outrageous, 372 00:22:36,455 --> 00:22:40,460 and it was forcing me... To be a liar. 373 00:22:41,593 --> 00:22:43,595 So, for him, it was okay to be a liar. 374 00:22:43,695 --> 00:22:44,833 And I think it... 375 00:22:44,930 --> 00:22:47,103 I think it affected my painting tremendously. 376 00:23:10,989 --> 00:23:14,994 Boxing, in a way, is kind of crazy, 377 00:23:15,093 --> 00:23:17,334 when you think about it. Two guys getting in a ring 378 00:23:17,429 --> 00:23:21,206 and just trying to beat the crap out of each other. 379 00:23:22,667 --> 00:23:25,113 Then, if you put two older guys, 380 00:23:25,203 --> 00:23:27,342 then it really becomes absurd. 381 00:23:27,439 --> 00:23:29,112 Liz: Bob puts a lot of his anger 382 00:23:29,207 --> 00:23:33,212 at his family secret in his work, of course. 383 00:23:33,311 --> 00:23:34,989 And then, of course, I heard all the stories about 384 00:23:35,013 --> 00:23:36,053 his family and everything, 385 00:23:36,148 --> 00:23:38,788 which was, you know, pretty amazing. 386 00:23:38,884 --> 00:23:40,921 I started the painting like all of my paintings. 387 00:23:41,019 --> 00:23:43,556 I make a charcoal drawing. 388 00:23:43,655 --> 00:23:46,158 As I was doing the drawing, it was quite clear to me 389 00:23:46,258 --> 00:23:49,603 that I had drawn one of my fathers... Cenedella, 390 00:23:49,694 --> 00:23:52,675 the father that brought me up. 391 00:23:52,764 --> 00:23:56,007 And then, I decided why don't I put my other father, 392 00:23:56,101 --> 00:23:58,843 my real father, Speirs, on the other side. 393 00:23:58,937 --> 00:24:00,109 I'm drawing this... 394 00:24:01,273 --> 00:24:06,552 As a satirical piece on... 395 00:24:06,645 --> 00:24:07,680 You know, on boxing. 396 00:24:08,947 --> 00:24:11,655 So now, they're punching each other, 397 00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:14,060 and I was the one getting hurt. 398 00:24:22,527 --> 00:24:24,404 This was definitely a painting where 399 00:24:24,496 --> 00:24:27,568 I was doing therapy on the canvas. 400 00:24:29,701 --> 00:24:31,374 As I did that painting, 401 00:24:31,470 --> 00:24:35,282 I ended up... You know, I was alone. 402 00:24:35,373 --> 00:24:38,877 I started to... To cry, you know? 403 00:24:38,977 --> 00:24:41,457 So... 404 00:24:41,546 --> 00:24:43,424 So, what... you know, what else are you gonna call it? 405 00:24:43,448 --> 00:24:44,722 Yeah. "father's day." 406 00:24:50,689 --> 00:24:52,669 Marvin Kitman: Bob is ahead of his times 407 00:24:52,757 --> 00:24:54,395 by five minutes. 408 00:24:54,493 --> 00:24:57,531 They would never show Bob's stuff. 409 00:24:57,629 --> 00:25:01,167 There's just too much material in it 410 00:25:01,266 --> 00:25:04,304 and too many thoughtful things going on. 411 00:25:04,402 --> 00:25:05,847 And we live in a... 412 00:25:05,937 --> 00:25:09,248 In a society that doesn't like to think. 413 00:25:09,341 --> 00:25:12,151 You know, I think we were a dysfunctional family. 414 00:25:12,244 --> 00:25:13,244 Do you? 415 00:25:14,412 --> 00:25:17,222 Yeah. how about it? 416 00:25:23,655 --> 00:25:27,501 I started off painting exactly when 417 00:25:27,592 --> 00:25:30,573 abstract expressionism came on the scene. 418 00:25:33,298 --> 00:25:36,745 Abstract art is half of art. 419 00:25:38,169 --> 00:25:39,773 It's all technique. 420 00:25:39,871 --> 00:25:43,148 It's like only part of what a painting is. 421 00:25:43,241 --> 00:25:46,188 That's the way I see it. 422 00:25:46,278 --> 00:25:49,088 You cannot paint a face. 423 00:25:50,315 --> 00:25:53,057 You have a technique, which limits you 424 00:25:53,151 --> 00:25:55,927 in so many ways that certain subjects 425 00:25:56,021 --> 00:25:58,262 simply cannot be portrayed. 426 00:25:59,357 --> 00:26:03,305 In... in the way that, um... um... 427 00:26:03,395 --> 00:26:04,430 Pollack painted, 428 00:26:04,529 --> 00:26:05,940 which I think is brilliant, 429 00:26:06,031 --> 00:26:08,773 because the way he painted, 430 00:26:08,867 --> 00:26:11,575 you can do no wrong, basically, in my opinion. 431 00:26:11,670 --> 00:26:13,707 See, in other words, there's a perfection. 432 00:26:13,805 --> 00:26:17,412 People today WILL say, well, hey, there's a bad hopper, 433 00:26:17,509 --> 00:26:20,456 or there's a bad El Greco, or this is a bad that. 434 00:26:20,545 --> 00:26:21,785 But I've never seen anyone say, 435 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,087 "oh, this is a bad pollack." 436 00:26:24,182 --> 00:26:27,322 Either they're all bad, or they're all good. 437 00:26:27,786 --> 00:26:30,331 That's the beginning of the marketplace 438 00:26:30,355 --> 00:26:32,494 dictating to artists. 439 00:26:32,591 --> 00:26:34,764 Before, the artist was reflecting 440 00:26:34,859 --> 00:26:36,099 on what was around him. 441 00:26:36,194 --> 00:26:38,174 And now, the commercial side, 442 00:26:38,263 --> 00:26:39,401 the galleries and so... 443 00:26:39,497 --> 00:26:42,307 Are telling the artists what's happening. 444 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,209 Richard: Collections can't be sacrosanct, 445 00:26:44,302 --> 00:26:46,612 and yet, they have to be treated very gingerly. 446 00:26:46,705 --> 00:26:50,118 The museum collection should always be seen as dynamic, 447 00:26:50,208 --> 00:26:53,121 meaning that it calls for adjustments, 448 00:26:53,211 --> 00:26:58,456 changing, trading, selling, adding, subtracting. 449 00:26:58,550 --> 00:27:01,497 In the '50s, right after the war, 450 00:27:01,586 --> 00:27:04,658 when all of a sudden abstract expressionism 451 00:27:04,756 --> 00:27:08,533 came on the scene, you had a form of art 452 00:27:08,627 --> 00:27:12,837 that was like a perfect thing to completely ignore 453 00:27:12,931 --> 00:27:15,138 what this country had been going through. 454 00:27:15,233 --> 00:27:17,304 Now, you had an art form 455 00:27:17,402 --> 00:27:21,282 which negated anyone who had a point of view. 456 00:27:21,373 --> 00:27:24,980 My heroes were guys from the '20s and '30s, 457 00:27:25,076 --> 00:27:27,488 people like Ben Shahn, people like, 458 00:27:27,579 --> 00:27:30,651 uh, bellows, Virgil marsh. 459 00:27:30,749 --> 00:27:33,161 You know, they... They'd paint bread lines, 460 00:27:33,251 --> 00:27:36,027 lynchings in the south, the depression. 461 00:27:36,121 --> 00:27:37,794 That's what interested me in art. 462 00:27:37,889 --> 00:27:40,369 So, I follow in that tradition, 463 00:27:40,458 --> 00:27:42,870 and they recorded history. 464 00:27:42,961 --> 00:27:46,135 I don't just talk about politics and... 465 00:27:46,231 --> 00:27:48,302 You know, it's part of what I paint, 466 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,346 'cause I think it's... I think it's... 467 00:27:50,435 --> 00:27:53,006 Part of... of the world that I live in. 468 00:27:54,305 --> 00:27:56,148 The art world doesn't look 469 00:27:56,241 --> 00:27:58,915 to see why that painting is effective. 470 00:27:59,010 --> 00:28:00,785 It's effective the way I painted it. 471 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,119 "Southern dogs"... It was reversing 472 00:28:06,217 --> 00:28:08,595 the head of the policemen 473 00:28:08,687 --> 00:28:11,099 with the dog and so on. 474 00:28:11,189 --> 00:28:15,467 I mean, that made it more than just a copy of a... 475 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,700 Um, of a... incident. 476 00:28:18,797 --> 00:28:21,869 When you see that policeman with a dog's head, 477 00:28:21,966 --> 00:28:24,742 and then the dog with a policeman's head, 478 00:28:24,836 --> 00:28:27,043 and his genitals hanging off the back, 479 00:28:27,138 --> 00:28:30,119 and another policeman looking up the dog's rear end, 480 00:28:30,208 --> 00:28:34,281 you know, that... that hurts a little bit, you know? 481 00:28:34,379 --> 00:28:37,019 I'd been told by galleries that, 482 00:28:37,115 --> 00:28:38,788 Bob, you've missed the boat. 483 00:28:38,883 --> 00:28:41,193 This kind of art is over with. 484 00:28:41,286 --> 00:28:43,562 No one does this anymore. 485 00:28:43,655 --> 00:28:47,296 Again, I'm not... I'm not legitimate. 486 00:28:47,392 --> 00:28:51,238 Richard: It's a very gossamer veil 487 00:28:51,329 --> 00:28:54,936 that separates the inside from the outside. 488 00:28:55,033 --> 00:28:56,808 And it's permeable. 489 00:28:56,901 --> 00:28:59,541 So, you can move from being not known, 490 00:28:59,637 --> 00:29:02,379 or not valued, to the other side. 491 00:29:02,474 --> 00:29:05,318 But I'd say it's a little bit... 492 00:29:05,410 --> 00:29:09,153 About chance, and a great deal about geography. 493 00:29:09,247 --> 00:29:14,060 I studied with Grosz, basically, for two years. 494 00:29:14,152 --> 00:29:18,999 And in '59, he was gonna go back to Berlin 495 00:29:19,090 --> 00:29:20,967 because his wife was sick, 496 00:29:21,059 --> 00:29:23,061 and she... She wanted to go back. 497 00:29:23,161 --> 00:29:25,801 And, he never wanted to go back. 498 00:29:25,897 --> 00:29:29,106 In the fall of '59, I was gonna go and, um, 499 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,771 study with him privately. 500 00:29:31,870 --> 00:29:34,646 The last Clay of school, and he makes sure. 501 00:29:34,739 --> 00:29:38,744 That he comes to class to say good-bye to the students. 502 00:29:38,843 --> 00:29:42,916 And then he invites me to go to this party on the ship. 503 00:29:43,014 --> 00:29:45,255 You know, one thing led to another. 504 00:29:45,350 --> 00:29:49,059 They were serving champagne, 505 00:29:49,154 --> 00:29:51,600 and I-l think... I don't know when I lost count... 506 00:29:51,689 --> 00:29:55,432 But we had had over 20 glasses apiece. 507 00:29:56,561 --> 00:29:59,508 So, we were drunk enough that he decided 508 00:29:59,597 --> 00:30:01,838 that I should come to Berlin on the boat. 509 00:30:01,933 --> 00:30:05,506 So, I got into this closet and, you know... 510 00:30:07,272 --> 00:30:12,221 The boat takes... takes off, and I'm in this closet, and... 511 00:30:12,310 --> 00:30:13,948 In his little room. 512 00:30:14,045 --> 00:30:16,116 And then... And they discover me. 513 00:30:16,214 --> 00:30:18,820 So, I'm dropped over the side of the boat, 514 00:30:18,917 --> 00:30:22,091 and taken to shore. 515 00:30:22,187 --> 00:30:23,894 That was the last time I saw him. 516 00:30:27,091 --> 00:30:29,401 Towards the end of the... 517 00:30:29,494 --> 00:30:34,307 The summer, I got this letter from his wife. 518 00:30:34,399 --> 00:30:36,811 It was basically a card. 519 00:30:36,901 --> 00:30:40,110 She had got my address wrong, so I found out 520 00:30:40,205 --> 00:30:44,551 almost a month after it had happened. 521 00:30:44,642 --> 00:30:47,145 That he died... 522 00:30:47,245 --> 00:30:49,816 Literally a week after he got back to Berlin. 523 00:30:53,852 --> 00:30:55,729 In the write-up, there was nothing that said 524 00:30:55,820 --> 00:30:58,926 how he died, so then there was just speculation 525 00:30:59,023 --> 00:31:01,469 as to whether, when he went back to Berlin, 526 00:31:01,559 --> 00:31:03,061 he still had enemies, people he... 527 00:31:03,161 --> 00:31:06,233 This is a man who had cut apart the society 528 00:31:06,331 --> 00:31:09,471 and seen through it before anyone else did. 529 00:31:09,567 --> 00:31:13,174 He was found at the bottom of the stairs. 530 00:31:13,271 --> 00:31:16,775 And I was, you know, devastated. 531 00:31:24,582 --> 00:31:28,621 The title of the painting is, "the death of George Grosz." 532 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,256 And, for a while, 533 00:31:30,355 --> 00:31:34,360 it was sort of the death of Bob Cenedella. 534 00:31:34,459 --> 00:31:36,598 And the painting... 535 00:31:36,694 --> 00:31:41,143 Takes me right back to 1959. 536 00:31:41,232 --> 00:31:44,076 A lot of the figures are from his paintings, 537 00:31:44,168 --> 00:31:47,172 and I put it together in a kind of an allegorical way. 538 00:31:50,942 --> 00:31:54,355 I guess I chose not to think that he got drunk 539 00:31:54,445 --> 00:31:55,890 and fell down a flight of stairs, 540 00:31:55,980 --> 00:31:58,221 but at the time, it was important to me that 541 00:31:58,316 --> 00:32:00,694 that was not the image. 542 00:32:00,785 --> 00:32:02,345 It would be better if he had been pushed 543 00:32:02,387 --> 00:32:04,230 down a flight of stairs. 544 00:32:08,059 --> 00:32:10,938 In his shadow, I put my signature. 545 00:32:11,029 --> 00:32:14,602 And even that is symbolic of 546 00:32:14,699 --> 00:32:17,612 would I ever get out from under, uh, 547 00:32:17,702 --> 00:32:19,306 the shadow of George Grosz. 548 00:32:28,012 --> 00:32:30,049 Man and woman: ♪ detergent scrub bubbles ♪ 549 00:32:30,148 --> 00:32:31,320 ♪ Scrub bubbles ♪ 550 00:32:31,416 --> 00:32:33,953 ♪ Scrub's in the bubbles in Brillo soap pads ♪ 551 00:32:34,052 --> 00:32:35,360 Woman: ♪ it's the first... ♪ 552 00:32:35,453 --> 00:32:37,694 Bob: There was an artist named James Harvey. 553 00:32:37,789 --> 00:32:39,860 He was an abstract painter, but he also worked, 554 00:32:39,958 --> 00:32:42,666 to make a living, in a packaging company. 555 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,467 He designed the Brillo box. 556 00:32:44,562 --> 00:32:45,639 Man and woman: ♪ scrub's in the bubbles ♪ 557 00:32:45,663 --> 00:32:46,698 ♪ In Brillo soap pads ♪ 558 00:32:46,798 --> 00:32:47,975 Ivan Karp: Even though it represents 559 00:32:47,999 --> 00:32:49,910 sort of a commercial symbol, 560 00:32:50,001 --> 00:32:51,512 that the design itself is rather attractive, 561 00:32:51,536 --> 00:32:53,538 and Artie... Andy sort of makes you see it. 562 00:32:53,638 --> 00:32:55,140 That's what his art is about. 563 00:32:56,341 --> 00:32:58,287 Now it was a whole different world, now. 564 00:32:58,376 --> 00:33:01,118 It was, uh... it was promotion it was, uh... 565 00:33:01,212 --> 00:33:02,486 Woman: Andy, do you think that 566 00:33:02,580 --> 00:33:03,791 pop art has sort of reached the point 567 00:33:03,815 --> 00:33:06,887 where it's becoming repetitious now? 568 00:33:06,985 --> 00:33:09,124 Uh, yes. 569 00:33:09,220 --> 00:33:11,894 Do you think it could break away from being pop art? 570 00:33:11,990 --> 00:33:13,128 Uh, no. 571 00:33:13,224 --> 00:33:14,669 Are you just going to carry on? 572 00:33:14,759 --> 00:33:16,170 Uh, yes. 573 00:33:16,260 --> 00:33:17,420 Bob: So, pop art came, and- 574 00:33:17,462 --> 00:33:18,964 and there's... There's humor. 575 00:33:19,063 --> 00:33:20,440 But, then, when it became 576 00:33:20,531 --> 00:33:22,340 the thing that people were selling, 577 00:33:22,433 --> 00:33:24,674 then you had to take it seriously. 578 00:33:27,505 --> 00:33:29,416 The art only meant... Was like... 579 00:33:29,507 --> 00:33:33,080 Like 1%, and the rest of it was going to... 580 00:33:33,177 --> 00:33:36,818 To parties, uh, getting the right people to come 581 00:33:36,914 --> 00:33:38,552 to your show. We... who really cares... 582 00:33:38,649 --> 00:33:42,062 ♪ I'm in with the "in crowd" ♪ 583 00:33:42,153 --> 00:33:46,192 ♪ I go where the "in crowd" goes ♪ 584 00:33:46,290 --> 00:33:48,236 ♪ I'm in with the "in crowd" ♪ 585 00:33:48,326 --> 00:33:50,499 Jess: There has always been about the art world 586 00:33:50,595 --> 00:33:53,098 some sort of certain sanctimony 587 00:33:53,197 --> 00:33:55,370 about the way the art world talks about itself, 588 00:33:55,466 --> 00:33:58,743 with a certain dead... Dead seriousness. 589 00:33:58,836 --> 00:34:01,282 Bob was not coming from that place at all. 590 00:34:01,372 --> 00:34:03,113 Bob was looking at the way 591 00:34:03,207 --> 00:34:05,016 the world was really working, 592 00:34:05,109 --> 00:34:07,919 not the way people said the world was working. 593 00:34:08,012 --> 00:34:09,123 Ed McCormack: I've said in print that 594 00:34:09,147 --> 00:34:10,285 he's a pain in the ass. 595 00:34:10,381 --> 00:34:11,992 Bob's a pain in the ass. That's why I'm doing this 596 00:34:12,016 --> 00:34:13,723 right now, because Bob's a pain in the ass. 597 00:34:13,818 --> 00:34:17,231 He wanted to advertise his work in... in... 598 00:34:17,321 --> 00:34:18,664 On the back cover of our magazine. 599 00:34:18,756 --> 00:34:21,100 We told him that we had a back cover that he could have. 600 00:34:21,192 --> 00:34:23,536 So, he gives us a copy that he did 601 00:34:23,628 --> 00:34:25,471 of a, uh, a Rothko painting, 602 00:34:25,563 --> 00:34:26,974 and it says "bullshit" on it. 603 00:34:27,065 --> 00:34:29,443 So, Bob put me right away in the position 604 00:34:29,534 --> 00:34:31,104 of either having to censor him, 605 00:34:31,202 --> 00:34:32,613 and say "we can't run this," 606 00:34:32,703 --> 00:34:35,650 or having to kind of endorse this. 607 00:34:35,740 --> 00:34:37,742 So, what I chose to do was, we're gonna run it. 608 00:34:37,842 --> 00:34:40,186 But I did it with a certain kind of annoyance, you know? 609 00:34:40,278 --> 00:34:43,555 Like, "what a fucking pain in the ass this guy is." 610 00:34:43,648 --> 00:34:46,595 Bob was really a traditional painter. 611 00:34:46,684 --> 00:34:48,459 He understood the basics. 612 00:34:48,553 --> 00:34:50,931 And a lot of the painters of that era 613 00:34:51,022 --> 00:34:52,933 were really saying things like, 614 00:34:53,024 --> 00:34:57,097 "painting doesn't matter. It's about... something else." 615 00:34:57,195 --> 00:34:59,436 Bob: It was 1965. 616 00:34:59,530 --> 00:35:02,204 I said, I'm gonna create an art show 617 00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:03,870 that WILL get more publicity 618 00:35:03,968 --> 00:35:07,472 than any other artist this year, including Andy Warhol. 619 00:35:07,572 --> 00:35:09,381 And I did. 620 00:35:09,474 --> 00:35:10,817 And I called it, "yes art." 621 00:35:10,908 --> 00:35:13,912 ♪ I'm in with the "in crowd" ♪ 622 00:35:14,011 --> 00:35:17,618 Whereas Warhol was painting pictures of green stamps, 623 00:35:17,715 --> 00:35:21,060 we gave out green stamps with a sale of art. 624 00:35:22,787 --> 00:35:25,358 You got so many books of s&h green stamps, 625 00:35:25,456 --> 00:35:27,936 and you could get yourself a TV with them, 626 00:35:28,025 --> 00:35:29,971 or a dog house, or a toaster. 627 00:35:32,163 --> 00:35:33,540 Jess: His attitude for this- 628 00:35:33,631 --> 00:35:36,009 is a kick in the shins to what 629 00:35:36,100 --> 00:35:39,843 appeared to be a corrupt system in the art world. 630 00:35:39,937 --> 00:35:41,416 Bob: The media was looking 631 00:35:41,506 --> 00:35:43,884 to make it into the next pop art, 632 00:35:43,975 --> 00:35:45,716 and I was trying to make the point 633 00:35:45,810 --> 00:35:48,154 that something was wrong. 634 00:35:48,246 --> 00:35:49,623 There were people who got it, 635 00:35:49,714 --> 00:35:52,194 and there were people who didn't. 636 00:35:52,283 --> 00:35:54,263 The show was obviously absurd, 637 00:35:54,352 --> 00:35:57,765 but I had to do it in such a way that the public would 638 00:35:57,855 --> 00:36:00,028 see no difference in what was being clone 639 00:36:00,124 --> 00:36:01,967 in a lot of other galleries. 640 00:36:02,059 --> 00:36:03,937 I think it's interesting that at this late date, 641 00:36:03,961 --> 00:36:06,202 Bob does the Heinz can. 642 00:36:06,297 --> 00:36:07,641 But, in a sense, I think that's the part 643 00:36:07,665 --> 00:36:10,145 of his work that's, on a certain level, beneath him. 644 00:36:10,234 --> 00:36:12,145 And I thought it was funny that he said, 645 00:36:12,236 --> 00:36:15,342 "well, it's actually a better soup," you know? 646 00:36:15,439 --> 00:36:17,680 Everyone's saying, "oh, Bob, you've got to continue. 647 00:36:17,775 --> 00:36:20,915 Yes art, it's a new movement." 648 00:36:21,012 --> 00:36:24,721 For me, to continue that show... 649 00:36:24,815 --> 00:36:27,694 The... the part that I would be most proud of 650 00:36:27,785 --> 00:36:29,662 is that I said no. I said, "that's it." 651 00:36:29,754 --> 00:36:31,165 Yes art is over 652 00:36:31,255 --> 00:36:32,529 because... 653 00:36:32,623 --> 00:36:35,399 I would've just been one of them. 654 00:36:35,493 --> 00:36:37,666 I did this show as a farewell to art. 655 00:36:37,762 --> 00:36:41,039 And I didn't really paint for the next ten years. 656 00:36:44,936 --> 00:36:48,782 And finally I get this job in this agency. 657 00:36:48,873 --> 00:36:52,343 I didn't have any experience. 658 00:36:52,443 --> 00:36:53,854 I guess the agency... I came in, 659 00:36:53,945 --> 00:36:55,422 and they said, "oh, who... this is this guy 660 00:36:55,446 --> 00:36:57,016 who's in the newspaper." 661 00:36:57,114 --> 00:36:58,559 Murray Kempton had written about me, 662 00:36:58,649 --> 00:37:00,322 Dick Schaap. 663 00:37:00,418 --> 00:37:01,920 I called my father. 664 00:37:02,019 --> 00:37:06,399 "Hey, dad, uh, I just got hired by this..." 665 00:37:06,490 --> 00:37:07,764 He says, "what? 666 00:37:07,858 --> 00:37:09,701 "You mean you have a job?! 667 00:37:09,794 --> 00:37:12,775 "A job like 9 to 5? 668 00:37:12,863 --> 00:37:14,501 And... are you kidding?" 669 00:37:14,599 --> 00:37:17,011 You know, he's like, he was, like, he was devastated 670 00:37:17,101 --> 00:37:18,774 that I had a job... 671 00:37:18,869 --> 00:37:21,247 A fucking job from 9 to 5. 672 00:37:21,339 --> 00:37:24,650 It was the only job I ever had 9 to 5, by the way. 673 00:37:24,742 --> 00:37:27,552 I thought that, you know, you came up with the concept, 674 00:37:27,645 --> 00:37:28,749 that you would write it, 675 00:37:28,846 --> 00:37:30,621 that you would do the visuals, 676 00:37:30,715 --> 00:37:31,992 and you'd put the whole thing together, 677 00:37:32,016 --> 00:37:33,689 which is what I did. 678 00:37:33,784 --> 00:37:36,993 The client bought the whole thing. 679 00:37:37,088 --> 00:37:38,897 So I am the wonder boy, 680 00:37:38,990 --> 00:37:41,470 but the writer and art director 681 00:37:41,559 --> 00:37:43,869 went to the client 682 00:37:43,961 --> 00:37:46,464 and said, "are you sure? 683 00:37:46,564 --> 00:37:48,840 "Are you sure this is the right... 684 00:37:48,933 --> 00:37:52,506 You know, we don't wanna..." Right? 685 00:37:52,603 --> 00:37:55,812 Boom, the rug is pulled from under me. 686 00:37:55,906 --> 00:37:59,513 It's like I got a knife right in the back. 687 00:38:01,412 --> 00:38:02,914 When I was in this agency, 688 00:38:03,014 --> 00:38:05,085 I... 689 00:38:05,182 --> 00:38:06,593 Would do these drawings, 690 00:38:06,684 --> 00:38:10,655 these black and white brush and ink drawings. 691 00:38:10,755 --> 00:38:13,429 I think that these were in some ways 692 00:38:13,524 --> 00:38:16,801 the most important pieces of art that I've done, 693 00:38:16,894 --> 00:38:20,307 because people are compelled by them. 694 00:38:22,066 --> 00:38:26,515 I developed a line from what I learned from Grosz. 695 00:38:28,472 --> 00:38:32,818 That ten-year period was lost to painting, 696 00:38:32,910 --> 00:38:36,915 but I had a marriage... Didn't last too long. 697 00:38:37,014 --> 00:38:38,357 Well, it lasted long enough. 698 00:38:38,449 --> 00:38:42,727 I had a son, I had a business. 699 00:38:42,820 --> 00:38:44,822 I went into the poster business 700 00:38:44,922 --> 00:38:47,459 even though I had, quote, given up on art. 701 00:38:47,558 --> 00:38:51,267 What I knew was how to make images. 702 00:38:51,362 --> 00:38:53,433 The images that I put down 703 00:38:53,531 --> 00:38:56,569 were images that meant something to the public. 704 00:39:00,938 --> 00:39:03,111 I was in that business at the right time. 705 00:39:03,207 --> 00:39:06,381 We were producing two, three new designs 706 00:39:06,477 --> 00:39:08,457 sometimes in a week. 707 00:39:08,546 --> 00:39:11,026 But they were political, they were... 708 00:39:11,115 --> 00:39:12,355 They had a message. 709 00:39:12,450 --> 00:39:14,123 And so that... That worked for me, 710 00:39:14,218 --> 00:39:15,458 because, you know, 711 00:39:15,553 --> 00:39:17,113 I wasn't doing paintings with a message, 712 00:39:17,154 --> 00:39:20,431 but I was doing posters with... With a message. 713 00:39:25,429 --> 00:39:26,499 In the '60s, 714 00:39:26,597 --> 00:39:30,704 there was a lot of animosity in the country. 715 00:39:30,801 --> 00:39:32,747 So I... I made a target. 716 00:39:32,837 --> 00:39:35,545 The, uh, hostility dartboard. 717 00:39:35,639 --> 00:39:39,314 I actually had... The CIA came to me, 718 00:39:39,410 --> 00:39:43,051 they said that this was a violent thing. 719 00:39:43,147 --> 00:39:45,149 I was on the side of, 720 00:39:45,249 --> 00:39:47,354 you know, uh, 721 00:39:47,451 --> 00:39:50,728 slowing down the violent nature of that time. 722 00:39:50,821 --> 00:39:53,893 I'm taking violence off the street 723 00:39:53,991 --> 00:39:57,461 and putting it into your living room. 724 00:39:57,561 --> 00:40:00,599 By the time the interrogation was over, 725 00:40:00,698 --> 00:40:03,201 they asked if they could have. 726 00:40:03,300 --> 00:40:07,476 A Johnson dartboard of all things, can you imagine? 727 00:40:08,639 --> 00:40:10,710 The Nixon board wasn't going that well, 728 00:40:10,808 --> 00:40:12,048 so I wrote him a letter. 729 00:40:12,143 --> 00:40:14,646 "Dear Mr. Nixon, I make these dartboards, 730 00:40:14,745 --> 00:40:16,281 "and yours is so popular 731 00:40:16,380 --> 00:40:17,691 "I want to give you an opportunity 732 00:40:17,715 --> 00:40:19,285 to use a better picture." 733 00:40:19,383 --> 00:40:20,418 I got a letter back, 734 00:40:20,518 --> 00:40:23,965 and it was signed by Rose Mary woods, 735 00:40:24,054 --> 00:40:27,695 the executive secretary to Richard M. Nixon. 736 00:40:27,792 --> 00:40:31,205 And they sent me a better picture. 737 00:40:38,469 --> 00:40:41,177 The, uh, people in charge. 738 00:40:41,272 --> 00:40:44,151 It's not what they show that bothers me. 739 00:40:44,241 --> 00:40:46,551 It's what they don't show. 740 00:40:46,644 --> 00:40:48,453 Mediocrity... 741 00:40:48,546 --> 00:40:52,119 Deciding the fate of genius... 742 00:40:52,216 --> 00:40:56,392 Especially in the case of Grosz, that's what happened here. 743 00:40:59,590 --> 00:41:01,536 I saw him as... 744 00:41:01,625 --> 00:41:06,096 Clearly, as a brilliant artist. 745 00:41:09,333 --> 00:41:11,973 Grosz, you know, he felt like a loser. 746 00:41:12,069 --> 00:41:14,379 He said... 747 00:41:14,472 --> 00:41:18,443 That he was a... 748 00:41:18,542 --> 00:41:22,080 A failure. 749 00:41:22,179 --> 00:41:24,955 And you don't like to hear that. 750 00:41:25,049 --> 00:41:27,859 Even with the situation, 751 00:41:27,952 --> 00:41:29,989 you know, knowing that he's not my... 752 00:41:30,087 --> 00:41:33,000 But I didn't, uh... 753 00:41:33,090 --> 00:41:35,468 I... that always bothered me. 754 00:41:38,429 --> 00:41:40,932 "George Grosz in America" 755 00:41:41,031 --> 00:41:43,136 was the only painting I did 756 00:41:43,234 --> 00:41:48,149 from 1966 to 1975. 757 00:41:49,507 --> 00:41:52,488 I'm sure that I'm... I'm painting myself, 758 00:41:52,576 --> 00:41:55,318 I'm feeling... I'm saying it's George Grosz, 759 00:41:55,412 --> 00:41:57,517 but I'm sort of feeling like it's me. 760 00:42:01,285 --> 00:42:04,095 I'm looking through a series of windows, 761 00:42:04,188 --> 00:42:06,759 and I was in a room, and I'm going through one house 762 00:42:06,857 --> 00:42:08,359 to another house to another house. 763 00:42:08,459 --> 00:42:10,769 I was trapped. 764 00:42:10,861 --> 00:42:13,273 So that painting, its darkness, 765 00:42:13,364 --> 00:42:18,143 it's probably a self-portrait. 766 00:42:18,235 --> 00:42:20,306 Not a portrait of Grosz. 767 00:42:21,739 --> 00:42:24,845 George Grosz didn't consider himself a success. 768 00:42:24,942 --> 00:42:27,923 The guy who did one career in Germany 769 00:42:28,012 --> 00:42:30,083 and another career in America. 770 00:42:30,180 --> 00:42:32,421 He said that they cut off his right arm 771 00:42:32,516 --> 00:42:33,722 when he came to America, 772 00:42:33,817 --> 00:42:36,821 and what he meant by that was that... 773 00:42:36,921 --> 00:42:39,401 You know, he wasn't being acknowledged, 774 00:42:39,490 --> 00:42:45,065 even for what he had clone or what he could do. 775 00:42:45,162 --> 00:42:47,802 I was outraged, 776 00:42:47,898 --> 00:42:49,309 furious... I mean, 777 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,176 there's no words to describe 778 00:42:52,269 --> 00:42:55,842 my feeling for the art world. 779 00:42:55,940 --> 00:42:57,920 It... I despised it. 780 00:42:59,677 --> 00:43:00,987 Richard Armstrong: The very worst fate 781 00:43:01,011 --> 00:43:03,389 for an artist is to be ignored. 782 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,756 Same for their work. 783 00:43:05,849 --> 00:43:09,820 If it becomes irrelevant, illegible, ignored. 784 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:11,399 These are all, you know, 785 00:43:11,488 --> 00:43:16,437 shades of, you know, permanent disappearance. 786 00:43:20,531 --> 00:43:24,035 Everyone is dealt a certain deck of cards. 787 00:43:24,134 --> 00:43:26,375 So I was dealt a certain hand, 788 00:43:26,470 --> 00:43:28,780 and I had a number of thing 789 00:43:28,872 --> 00:43:31,250 that I wished weren't true. 790 00:43:31,342 --> 00:43:34,619 If I got depressed, I would withdraw. 791 00:43:34,712 --> 00:43:37,352 I didn't... I didn't want to see people. 792 00:43:37,448 --> 00:43:42,056 I had week, two-week depressions. 793 00:43:42,152 --> 00:43:46,328 So what my mother often said to me was, 794 00:43:46,423 --> 00:43:50,530 "don't look for the answers on the outside. 795 00:43:50,628 --> 00:43:54,337 Look... they're inside." 796 00:43:54,431 --> 00:43:56,809 And every time I would get out of a depression, 797 00:43:56,900 --> 00:43:58,538 I was feeling so good, I said, 798 00:43:58,636 --> 00:44:00,206 "that could never happen to me again." 799 00:44:00,304 --> 00:44:02,011 And then, who knows? 800 00:44:02,106 --> 00:44:04,347 I came to a point where I decided 801 00:44:04,441 --> 00:44:06,819 not to be a tragic figure. 802 00:44:06,910 --> 00:44:09,914 I didn't graduate from high school. 803 00:44:10,014 --> 00:44:11,357 I was illegitimate. 804 00:44:11,448 --> 00:44:14,657 But, in the end, hey, I have my art. 805 00:44:16,186 --> 00:44:18,564 I would not say that I am... 806 00:44:18,656 --> 00:44:20,465 An expert on music. 807 00:44:20,557 --> 00:44:21,900 I just love music, you know? 808 00:44:21,992 --> 00:44:25,337 I'm one of those people who say, "I listen to what I like." 809 00:44:32,469 --> 00:44:34,847 My interest was in the audience. 810 00:44:34,938 --> 00:44:36,576 So the painting's not... 811 00:44:36,674 --> 00:44:38,085 It's not of the orchestra 812 00:44:38,175 --> 00:44:41,588 from the audience looking in, but it's from behind them. 813 00:44:45,716 --> 00:44:47,252 I'm not sure of the year, 814 00:44:47,351 --> 00:44:49,831 but in the late... Somewhere in the late '70s, 815 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,163 I started a series of paintings 816 00:44:53,257 --> 00:44:56,431 using musical backgrounds. 817 00:44:56,527 --> 00:44:58,939 In the balcony, I'm looking at the crowd 818 00:44:59,029 --> 00:45:02,067 from the point of view of what a... some guy 819 00:45:02,166 --> 00:45:04,086 who's playing the violin or the oboe or something 820 00:45:04,134 --> 00:45:06,136 and he's... He's hearing, you know, 821 00:45:06,236 --> 00:45:08,614 people blowing their nose, you know, coughing, 822 00:45:08,706 --> 00:45:10,549 all that kind of stuff. 823 00:45:10,641 --> 00:45:13,281 I'm able to express something 824 00:45:13,377 --> 00:45:15,948 that I know must be on the minds 825 00:45:16,046 --> 00:45:18,492 of the poor guys down there who are slaving away, 826 00:45:18,582 --> 00:45:19,693 you know, trying to make music 827 00:45:19,717 --> 00:45:21,390 and competing with the audience. 828 00:45:24,388 --> 00:45:26,698 Every once in a while, you're working on something, 829 00:45:26,790 --> 00:45:30,704 and I... I saw the... 830 00:45:32,129 --> 00:45:35,975 The idea of a political conductor. 831 00:45:36,066 --> 00:45:38,307 Once I had established Hitler as the... 832 00:45:38,402 --> 00:45:41,576 As the conductor, well... 833 00:45:46,276 --> 00:45:48,586 You know, you can criticize Hitler and say, 834 00:45:48,679 --> 00:45:49,956 "yeah, but he had plenty of people 835 00:45:49,980 --> 00:45:52,119 that were playing ball with him." 836 00:45:52,216 --> 00:45:54,992 So they became-they had little mustaches. 837 00:45:55,085 --> 00:45:57,998 And then... and then of course you had to have the people. 838 00:45:58,088 --> 00:46:00,159 They had to kind of go along, 839 00:46:00,257 --> 00:46:02,100 and so they, in the audience, 840 00:46:02,192 --> 00:46:03,637 you see the little mustaches. 841 00:46:03,727 --> 00:46:06,230 So, again, the art of any painting 842 00:46:06,330 --> 00:46:09,743 is not the commentary, and that's why I say 843 00:46:09,833 --> 00:46:11,574 I throw the commentary in at no charge. 844 00:46:11,668 --> 00:46:14,444 I just charge for the color and the composition. 845 00:46:15,506 --> 00:46:17,486 When I first met Raphael Soyer, 846 00:46:17,574 --> 00:46:20,020 he said to me... 847 00:46:20,110 --> 00:46:22,886 "Where do you get your ideas?" 848 00:46:22,980 --> 00:46:24,425 And I... I couldn't believe it. 849 00:46:24,515 --> 00:46:28,292 I couldn't understand an artist asking me that. 850 00:46:28,385 --> 00:46:30,991 "Where do you get your ideas?" 851 00:46:31,088 --> 00:46:34,900 He was a guy who would give time to younger artists. 852 00:46:35,959 --> 00:46:37,961 And he himself said, 853 00:46:38,061 --> 00:46:40,041 well, for him to do a painting, 854 00:46:40,130 --> 00:46:41,803 he had to have a model 855 00:46:41,899 --> 00:46:45,244 or something sitting in front of him. 856 00:46:45,335 --> 00:46:46,575 Artists are all different, 857 00:46:46,670 --> 00:46:49,207 but, for me, I've never been in my studio and said, 858 00:46:49,306 --> 00:46:51,582 "oh gee, what am I going to paint today? 859 00:46:51,675 --> 00:46:53,382 He then said, "well, where do you get 860 00:46:53,477 --> 00:46:55,479 your ideas from," you know? 861 00:46:55,579 --> 00:46:56,922 I didn't have an answer then. 862 00:46:58,515 --> 00:47:00,859 Painting my painting or painting in general 863 00:47:00,951 --> 00:47:02,396 is about ideas, you know, 864 00:47:02,486 --> 00:47:05,831 so I did one painting in the music series 865 00:47:05,923 --> 00:47:10,065 where the... all the players are fighting each other 866 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:11,160 and, you know, 867 00:47:11,195 --> 00:47:13,835 and crashing a drum 868 00:47:13,931 --> 00:47:14,941 over the other guy's head. 869 00:47:14,965 --> 00:47:17,343 Broken violin. 870 00:47:17,434 --> 00:47:19,607 A conductor running off the stage. 871 00:47:37,788 --> 00:47:41,065 I was called, by Rosita Florio, 872 00:47:41,158 --> 00:47:43,069 who was the head of the art students league. 873 00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:44,901 "Bob," she said, 874 00:47:44,995 --> 00:47:49,137 "how would you like to teach the old George Grosz class?" 875 00:47:49,233 --> 00:47:52,612 And, of course, I... you know, I'd never taught anywhere. 876 00:47:55,372 --> 00:47:56,649 You know, I walked into this class, 877 00:47:56,673 --> 00:47:59,882 and of course it brought me right back to 1959. 878 00:47:59,977 --> 00:48:02,685 You know, you were walking on the floor 879 00:48:02,779 --> 00:48:05,760 that Grosz walked on. 880 00:48:07,251 --> 00:48:09,527 George Grosz was teaching at the league 881 00:48:09,620 --> 00:48:11,759 because he didn't need a degree. 882 00:48:11,855 --> 00:48:14,028 He couldn't have taught at 883 00:48:14,124 --> 00:48:17,537 one of the lofty art schools like Yale. 884 00:48:19,930 --> 00:48:21,876 Took off my jacket, and I rolled up my sleeves, 885 00:48:21,965 --> 00:48:23,842 and I took a piece of charcoal, 886 00:48:23,934 --> 00:48:27,541 and I started to show people what I knew. 887 00:48:28,939 --> 00:48:30,919 Not just paying back, 888 00:48:31,008 --> 00:48:34,785 but to remember the things that got you to where we are. 889 00:48:36,146 --> 00:48:38,524 As we... 890 00:48:38,615 --> 00:48:41,528 Continue this, we see... 891 00:48:51,161 --> 00:48:53,198 This little piece of charcoal, 892 00:48:53,297 --> 00:48:55,106 piece of paper, 893 00:48:55,198 --> 00:48:58,873 and your eye and hand starting to work together. 894 00:48:58,969 --> 00:49:02,542 And it's the greatest discipline in the world. 895 00:49:08,645 --> 00:49:11,148 All right, hey. 896 00:49:11,248 --> 00:49:13,854 So, when we do spaghetti sauce, 897 00:49:13,951 --> 00:49:16,454 we do it... We do it big. 898 00:49:16,553 --> 00:49:18,464 In my search to find out 899 00:49:18,555 --> 00:49:19,863 who I am, 900 00:49:19,957 --> 00:49:23,996 the name "Cenedella," that's an Italian name. 901 00:49:24,094 --> 00:49:26,540 Certainly no one has ever accused me 902 00:49:26,630 --> 00:49:28,109 of looking like an Italian, 903 00:49:28,198 --> 00:49:30,644 including my own family. 904 00:49:30,734 --> 00:49:34,841 One of the secret ingredients in there was celery. 905 00:49:34,938 --> 00:49:37,441 And also... 906 00:49:37,541 --> 00:49:39,316 Carrots. 907 00:49:39,409 --> 00:49:44,017 So that our sauce becomes like a... almost like a stew. 908 00:49:44,114 --> 00:49:46,151 Some people put sugar in the spaghetti sauce. 909 00:49:46,249 --> 00:49:47,728 We never do it, that's the... 910 00:49:47,818 --> 00:49:49,889 That's the Cenedella secret. 911 00:49:49,987 --> 00:49:52,900 Or maybe it's... Well, anyway. 912 00:49:52,990 --> 00:49:55,971 It could be the Speirs secret. 913 00:49:56,059 --> 00:49:58,369 But any... but... 914 00:50:00,130 --> 00:50:03,111 And that's the, uh... 915 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:04,304 Hey, hey. 916 00:50:04,401 --> 00:50:06,642 Oh, is this the... No, no. 917 00:50:06,737 --> 00:50:08,014 Oh, this is not the good stuff. 918 00:50:08,038 --> 00:50:09,244 It's not the good stuff, no. 919 00:50:10,874 --> 00:50:12,820 I just don't understand 920 00:50:12,909 --> 00:50:15,651 how you could not be a good father. 921 00:50:15,746 --> 00:50:17,521 You know, I had two fathers 922 00:50:17,614 --> 00:50:21,619 that didn't... together, they didn't make up one, right? 923 00:50:21,718 --> 00:50:22,958 And then I'm thinking... 924 00:50:23,053 --> 00:50:26,227 And then I have... David. 925 00:50:26,323 --> 00:50:27,667 Yeah, I was the black sheep in the family, 926 00:50:27,691 --> 00:50:28,726 because I was a lawyer. 927 00:50:28,825 --> 00:50:29,825 Yeah, right, right, 928 00:50:29,860 --> 00:50:31,066 he actually had a job. 929 00:50:31,161 --> 00:50:33,232 Had a job, you know, hey. 930 00:50:33,330 --> 00:50:35,469 That made him a black sheep of the family. 931 00:50:35,565 --> 00:50:37,169 You spend time, 932 00:50:37,267 --> 00:50:38,905 and you treat them 933 00:50:39,002 --> 00:50:40,675 the way you would want to be treated, 934 00:50:40,771 --> 00:50:42,682 you know what, it's gonna work out great. 935 00:50:42,773 --> 00:50:44,616 A true story. 936 00:50:47,310 --> 00:50:48,948 I grew up in a family 937 00:50:49,046 --> 00:50:50,582 in which my father 938 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:54,218 literally saw losing in sports 939 00:50:54,317 --> 00:50:55,921 as losing in life, 940 00:50:56,019 --> 00:50:59,091 so that there was no separation. 941 00:51:00,390 --> 00:51:02,233 David: When I was a kid, 942 00:51:02,325 --> 00:51:06,796 we used to go, like, literally crazy at the games. 943 00:51:06,897 --> 00:51:08,843 Actually, he's not a good sport. 944 00:51:08,932 --> 00:51:10,843 He's actually not a bad loser. 945 00:51:10,934 --> 00:51:13,471 He's actually a really horrible winner, though. 946 00:51:18,575 --> 00:51:20,316 David: That is, 947 00:51:20,410 --> 00:51:22,913 he always roots for the underdog. 948 00:51:23,013 --> 00:51:24,788 Always. 949 00:51:24,881 --> 00:51:27,862 Bob: Losing is like being a failure in art. 950 00:51:27,951 --> 00:51:31,296 It's like being a failure at everything. 951 00:51:34,157 --> 00:51:38,367 Not that winning means that I'm a success. 952 00:51:38,462 --> 00:51:40,032 Doesn't work that way. 953 00:51:40,130 --> 00:51:42,872 Just, winning just means I didn't lose. 954 00:51:42,966 --> 00:51:44,877 Oh, well... 955 00:51:46,570 --> 00:51:48,447 Yooo! 956 00:51:48,538 --> 00:51:50,279 Whoooo! 957 00:51:50,373 --> 00:51:52,353 Look at that, hey. 958 00:52:00,117 --> 00:52:01,892 Jess Korman: There's an aspect of violence 959 00:52:01,985 --> 00:52:03,794 in every Cenedella painting. 960 00:52:03,887 --> 00:52:05,560 I mean, there are people fighting, 961 00:52:05,655 --> 00:52:06,793 and he loves sports, 962 00:52:06,890 --> 00:52:08,767 and so he loves the... the confrontation. 963 00:52:08,859 --> 00:52:10,668 He's clone many football paintings. 964 00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:12,296 And so, I mean, 965 00:52:12,395 --> 00:52:14,204 I think he's a... You know, he's a guy's guy, 966 00:52:14,297 --> 00:52:16,709 you know, Bob likes to mess it up, 967 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:18,040 and there's drama in that. 968 00:52:18,135 --> 00:52:20,911 And he also sees comic value in it. 969 00:52:38,288 --> 00:52:40,928 The humor in his paintings 970 00:52:41,024 --> 00:52:45,097 is never ceasing. 971 00:52:45,195 --> 00:52:46,936 No matter how bad things are, 972 00:52:47,030 --> 00:52:48,441 you've gotta have a sense of humor, 973 00:52:48,532 --> 00:52:50,409 and I recognized the humor, 974 00:52:50,500 --> 00:52:51,672 the whimsy, 975 00:52:51,768 --> 00:52:54,772 and the sardonic gallows humor 976 00:52:54,871 --> 00:52:56,111 which he has in his work. 977 00:52:56,206 --> 00:52:59,153 Humor lives eternally, 978 00:52:59,242 --> 00:53:01,188 you know, in his paintings. 979 00:53:01,278 --> 00:53:03,451 I think my art is very serious. 980 00:53:03,547 --> 00:53:05,493 But it makes people laugh. 981 00:53:05,582 --> 00:53:07,528 My wife and I got 982 00:53:07,617 --> 00:53:10,996 an invitation to an art show. 983 00:53:11,087 --> 00:53:14,296 I remember walking into this gallery, 984 00:53:14,391 --> 00:53:15,893 and the show was called "giants." 985 00:53:15,992 --> 00:53:20,168 And it showed a football field with tiny players 986 00:53:20,263 --> 00:53:22,709 and giant people 987 00:53:22,799 --> 00:53:26,110 in the tradition of George Grosz characters. 988 00:53:26,203 --> 00:53:28,843 But the odd thing about the exhibit was 989 00:53:28,939 --> 00:53:30,680 they all seemed to be the same picture. 990 00:53:30,774 --> 00:53:31,980 You went around, there were, 991 00:53:32,075 --> 00:53:34,282 like, maybe 60 pictures on the wall, 992 00:53:34,377 --> 00:53:35,685 and every one of them looked like 993 00:53:35,779 --> 00:53:39,420 it was a reproduction of the same picture. 994 00:53:39,516 --> 00:53:42,690 After about ten minutes there, someone came up to me, 995 00:53:42,786 --> 00:53:45,733 said, "have you gotten it?" 996 00:53:45,822 --> 00:53:47,859 I said, "gotten what?"? 997 00:53:47,958 --> 00:53:50,029 So he said, "have you found yourself?" 998 00:53:50,126 --> 00:53:51,537 I said, "what are you talking about?" 999 00:53:51,561 --> 00:53:53,370 And I... I assumed 1000 00:53:53,463 --> 00:53:55,841 maybe I was one of the faces in the crowd. 1001 00:53:55,932 --> 00:53:57,910 So I looked at the painting I was standing in front of, 1002 00:53:57,934 --> 00:53:59,845 and I wasn't in there. 1003 00:53:59,936 --> 00:54:01,347 But then it turned out 1004 00:54:01,438 --> 00:54:03,509 that everyone he had invited to this show, 1005 00:54:03,607 --> 00:54:06,611 he had put their face in one place. 1006 00:54:06,710 --> 00:54:08,849 And that was the only thing that was different. 1007 00:54:08,945 --> 00:54:11,391 One face was changed. 1008 00:54:11,481 --> 00:54:14,087 And when you found the one with your face on it, 1009 00:54:14,184 --> 00:54:17,028 his assumption was that you'd buy the painting. 1010 00:54:18,955 --> 00:54:20,764 Bob: It was around 1987. 1011 00:54:20,857 --> 00:54:22,393 Everyone was talking about 1012 00:54:22,492 --> 00:54:23,698 that one day 1013 00:54:23,793 --> 00:54:26,797 the stock market would go over 2,000. 1014 00:54:28,164 --> 00:54:29,507 I had met a stockbroker. 1015 00:54:29,599 --> 00:54:31,340 He was interested in my art. 1016 00:54:31,434 --> 00:54:33,311 And said you ought to do a painting 1017 00:54:33,403 --> 00:54:34,575 of the stock exchange. 1018 00:54:34,671 --> 00:54:36,275 He had a seat, 1019 00:54:36,373 --> 00:54:40,287 so he was able to get me actually on the floor. 1020 00:54:45,081 --> 00:54:48,119 There was more integrity on the floor of the stock exchange 1021 00:54:48,218 --> 00:54:50,596 than the art world itself. 1022 00:54:50,687 --> 00:54:54,328 It was refreshing to be with honest crooks 1023 00:54:54,424 --> 00:54:56,135 rather than the kind of crooks that I deal with 1024 00:54:56,159 --> 00:54:58,070 in the art world. 1025 00:54:59,729 --> 00:55:01,800 I was able to incorporate a lot of this stuff 1026 00:55:01,898 --> 00:55:04,003 in the painting. 1027 00:55:04,100 --> 00:55:07,946 ♪ Easy money, comes and goes ♪ 1028 00:55:08,038 --> 00:55:11,781 ♪ You may have it, you may owe, well ♪ 1029 00:55:11,875 --> 00:55:13,445 ♪ Everybody dies ♪ 1030 00:55:13,543 --> 00:55:15,648 ♪ And everybody knows ♪ 1031 00:55:15,745 --> 00:55:17,725 ♪ If you wanna make your Mark ♪ 1032 00:55:17,814 --> 00:55:19,851 ♪ You better make it show ♪ 1033 00:55:19,949 --> 00:55:21,758 ♪ My bitty mow mow ♪ 1034 00:55:21,851 --> 00:55:23,762 ♪ Took your money now how ♪ 1035 00:55:23,853 --> 00:55:27,699 ♪ Ever WILL you pay the man? ♪ 1036 00:55:27,791 --> 00:55:29,702 ♪ Skinny Minnie moo moo ♪ 1037 00:55:29,793 --> 00:55:32,000 ♪ Took it off of mow mow ♪ 1038 00:55:32,095 --> 00:55:35,633 ♪ Gave it all to dapper Dan ♪ 1039 00:55:35,732 --> 00:55:37,609 ♪ Jr. tiny juju ♪ 1040 00:55:37,701 --> 00:55:39,578 ♪ Can get it off of Daniel ♪ 1041 00:55:39,669 --> 00:55:43,617 ♪ 'Cause he's a heavy-liftin' dude ♪ 1042 00:55:43,707 --> 00:55:45,778 ♪ But juju's baby mama ♪? 1043 00:55:45,875 --> 00:55:47,821 ♪ May cause a bit of drama ♪ 1044 00:55:47,911 --> 00:55:51,825 ♪ All depending on her mood ♪ 1045 00:55:51,915 --> 00:55:53,553 ♪ Easy money ♪ 1046 00:55:53,650 --> 00:55:56,358 ♪ Comes and goes ♪ 1047 00:55:56,453 --> 00:55:59,093 ♪ You may have it, you may owe ♪ 1048 00:55:59,189 --> 00:56:01,260 ♪ Well, everybody dies ♪ 1049 00:56:01,358 --> 00:56:03,634 ♪ And everybody knows ♪ 1050 00:56:03,727 --> 00:56:06,173 ♪ If you wanna make your Mark ♪ 1051 00:56:06,262 --> 00:56:09,175 ♪ You better make it show n' 1052 00:56:11,534 --> 00:56:14,276 Let's make it happen. 1053 00:56:21,077 --> 00:56:22,886 People may have thought it was ironic 1054 00:56:22,979 --> 00:56:25,357 that Robert Cenedella was doing this drawing 1055 00:56:25,448 --> 00:56:26,722 about the home of capitalism, 1056 00:56:26,816 --> 00:56:29,160 but that's what Cenedella is. 1057 00:56:29,252 --> 00:56:31,994 Ironic, that's a good... 1058 00:56:32,088 --> 00:56:35,763 One-word encapsulation of everything that he's done. 1059 00:56:35,859 --> 00:56:36,036 People are buying art only for investment. 1060 00:56:36,059 --> 00:56:38,369 People are buying art only for investment. 1061 00:56:38,461 --> 00:56:40,737 I can't give you percentages, 1062 00:56:40,830 --> 00:56:43,310 but a high percentage of 'em 1063 00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:44,845 buy a piece of art 1064 00:56:44,934 --> 00:56:47,005 with the hope that it's going to increase in value 1065 00:56:47,103 --> 00:56:48,548 when they walk out of there. 1066 00:56:48,638 --> 00:56:51,050 The art world really is a... 1067 00:56:51,141 --> 00:56:53,781 Kind of a... A dreary place right now. 1068 00:56:53,877 --> 00:56:55,220 It's all based on money, 1069 00:56:55,311 --> 00:56:56,483 it's based on collectors. 1070 00:56:56,579 --> 00:56:58,752 It's based on... 1071 00:56:58,848 --> 00:57:01,727 I mean, I don't know how people are hustling so hard 1072 00:57:01,818 --> 00:57:05,561 and trying so... So much to get famous. 1073 00:57:11,060 --> 00:57:12,300 Bob: I consider myself 1074 00:57:12,395 --> 00:57:14,602 a contemporary artist because I'm painting today. 1075 00:57:14,697 --> 00:57:17,906 So contemporary art... Who defines what it is? 1076 00:57:18,001 --> 00:57:20,607 And I have a big problem with that. 1077 00:57:20,703 --> 00:57:22,580 Woman: For the first time in its history, 1078 00:57:22,672 --> 00:57:25,551 the frieze art fair is being held in New York City. 1079 00:57:25,642 --> 00:57:28,282 With so much to see in contemporary art, 1080 00:57:28,378 --> 00:57:30,654 visitors can spend hours at the fair. 1081 00:57:30,747 --> 00:57:31,857 Kelly crow: Contemporary art, 1082 00:57:31,881 --> 00:57:32,985 that's the wild west. 1083 00:57:33,082 --> 00:57:35,358 That's where you have a chance to maybe buy something 1084 00:57:35,452 --> 00:57:36,988 that WILL be worth millions someday. 1085 00:57:37,086 --> 00:57:39,726 Um, but it also means that you may lose your shirt. 1086 00:57:41,591 --> 00:57:43,102 Morgan long: Contemporary art is seen as- 1087 00:57:43,126 --> 00:57:44,332 as pushing the envelope. 1088 00:57:44,427 --> 00:57:46,429 And a lot of times you can get something 1089 00:57:46,529 --> 00:57:49,942 that's, um, you know, a pile of garbage, literally. 1090 00:57:50,033 --> 00:57:52,570 But it's an art installation. 1091 00:57:52,669 --> 00:57:54,205 Bob: I say the establishment is 1092 00:57:54,304 --> 00:57:56,875 narrow-minded about work that doesn't fit 1093 00:57:56,973 --> 00:57:58,953 their monthly designation 1094 00:57:59,042 --> 00:58:02,819 of who's in and who's out. 1095 00:58:02,912 --> 00:58:05,449 An artist can rise and fall 1096 00:58:05,548 --> 00:58:08,256 in recognition within the art world. 1097 00:58:08,351 --> 00:58:13,391 There is no one player who can make an artist. 1098 00:58:13,490 --> 00:58:17,438 You can move from being not known or not valued 1099 00:58:17,527 --> 00:58:18,870 to the other side, 1100 00:58:18,962 --> 00:58:21,636 but you have to be lucky enough 1101 00:58:21,731 --> 00:58:24,337 or clever enough or talented enough 1102 00:58:24,434 --> 00:58:26,607 or beautiful enough or... 1103 00:58:26,703 --> 00:58:28,740 The companion or friend or whatever... 1104 00:58:28,838 --> 00:58:31,148 Neighbor of someone who can help you do that. 1105 00:58:31,241 --> 00:58:32,584 It can't be done alone. 1106 00:58:32,675 --> 00:58:33,875 Bob: So we've come to believe 1107 00:58:33,910 --> 00:58:35,454 now that, every month, there's another great, 1108 00:58:35,478 --> 00:58:37,185 you know, American artist. 1109 00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:41,353 How many great artists are there? 1110 00:58:41,451 --> 00:58:45,661 Jeff Koons, he has a vacuum cleaner. 1111 00:58:45,755 --> 00:58:47,359 All right, now it's art. 1112 00:58:47,457 --> 00:58:51,564 At some point, it's gonna become just a vacuum cleaner again. 1113 00:58:51,661 --> 00:58:53,800 That's really where we're at at this point. 1114 00:58:53,897 --> 00:58:56,673 It... the question isn't "what is art?" 1115 00:58:56,766 --> 00:58:59,246 It's "what isn't art." 1116 00:58:59,335 --> 00:59:00,746 Judd Tully: What's important? 1117 00:59:00,837 --> 00:59:02,612 What's valuable? 1118 00:59:02,705 --> 00:59:04,742 We're not talking about critical value 1119 00:59:04,841 --> 00:59:06,115 or museum value. 1120 00:59:06,209 --> 00:59:09,122 We're just talking plain old dollar value. 1121 00:59:11,414 --> 00:59:13,155 Bob: Everyone has the right 1122 00:59:13,249 --> 00:59:17,026 to make anything they want. 1123 00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:19,794 It's not what they show that bothers me. 1124 00:59:19,889 --> 00:59:22,335 It's what they don't show. 1125 00:59:22,425 --> 00:59:25,338 And that's really a kind of form of censorship. 1126 00:59:28,765 --> 00:59:30,403 I do not think a work of art 1127 00:59:30,500 --> 00:59:32,260 is worth what someone's willing to pay for it 1128 00:59:32,302 --> 00:59:35,112 because some of the most important works of art 1129 00:59:35,204 --> 00:59:37,707 are not for sale. 1130 00:59:46,482 --> 00:59:47,593 Bob: What I tell my students, 1131 00:59:47,617 --> 00:59:49,790 I said, if you wanna be an artist, 1132 00:59:49,886 --> 00:59:52,560 don't get rid of your Clay job. 1133 00:59:52,655 --> 00:59:55,101 You can bastardize everything else in your life, 1134 00:59:55,191 --> 00:59:57,262 but if you compromise with your art, 1135 00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,203 why be an artist? 1136 00:59:59,295 --> 01:00:03,744 You have to remember that, when we look there at the model, 1137 01:00:03,833 --> 01:00:05,608 there are no lines, there's no such thing... 1138 01:00:05,702 --> 01:00:07,272 That was one of the first things 1139 01:00:07,370 --> 01:00:10,510 that Grosz said to me that I found startling. 1140 01:00:10,607 --> 01:00:13,349 He was like, "oh, there is no such thing 1141 01:00:13,443 --> 01:00:15,889 as a line in nature." 1142 01:00:15,979 --> 01:00:18,255 It's an invention of man, see? 1143 01:00:18,348 --> 01:00:22,694 So use line to make all these other things. 1144 01:00:24,587 --> 01:00:26,794 ."Okay, so this could have been... 1145 01:00:26,889 --> 01:00:28,459 More this line... 1146 01:00:28,558 --> 01:00:31,129 You look there, don't look at the page. 1147 01:00:31,227 --> 01:00:32,227 Let it... let it happen. 1148 01:00:32,261 --> 01:00:34,798 Okay, there... 1149 01:00:34,897 --> 01:00:36,740 If you make a foot that's this big... 1150 01:00:36,833 --> 01:00:38,244 Eventually what happens is 1151 01:00:38,334 --> 01:00:40,575 you see part of this drawing, you say, oh, wow. 1152 01:00:40,670 --> 01:00:42,843 That really feels like an arm. 1153 01:00:42,939 --> 01:00:44,680 Or that feels like a thigh. 1154 01:00:44,774 --> 01:00:46,776 The rest of it, you forget about it. 1155 01:00:46,876 --> 01:00:48,981 I always tell this story about this girl. 1156 01:00:49,078 --> 01:00:50,656 I said, "how long have you been drawing?" 1157 01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:52,751 "Oh, I've been drawing for three years." 1158 01:00:52,849 --> 01:00:54,590 So I handed her a piece of charcoal. 1159 01:00:54,684 --> 01:00:56,493 And she said, "what's that?" 1160 01:00:56,586 --> 01:00:58,224 Then I realized 1161 01:00:58,321 --> 01:00:59,921 that she had been drawing with a computer 1162 01:00:59,956 --> 01:01:02,766 and got herself an MFA. 1163 01:01:02,859 --> 01:01:04,805 By the end of the Clay, 1164 01:01:04,894 --> 01:01:07,704 she was so mad 1165 01:01:07,797 --> 01:01:10,334 that she had spent three years in an art school 1166 01:01:10,433 --> 01:01:13,380 and never held a piece of charcoal... 1167 01:01:13,469 --> 01:01:15,608 Right, and thought she could draw. 1168 01:01:18,708 --> 01:01:20,415 In 1988, 1169 01:01:20,510 --> 01:01:22,956 I had my Saatchi & Saatchi show 1170 01:01:23,046 --> 01:01:24,684 right at their headquarters. 1171 01:01:24,781 --> 01:01:26,954 And this was a major show. 1172 01:01:27,050 --> 01:01:29,656 Saatchi, of course, is known for 1173 01:01:29,752 --> 01:01:32,198 their, um, 1174 01:01:32,288 --> 01:01:34,825 sensations show. 1175 01:01:34,924 --> 01:01:37,131 The Brooklyn museum gave Saatchi- 1176 01:01:37,226 --> 01:01:39,672 they allowed him to put his private collection 1177 01:01:39,762 --> 01:01:42,003 into a public museum. 1178 01:01:42,098 --> 01:01:43,907 Just on the face of it, it's like, 1179 01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:46,207 what the hell is that all about? 1180 01:01:46,302 --> 01:01:48,304 They called it "sensations." 1181 01:01:49,672 --> 01:01:52,744 So I had planned the show out pretty carefully. 1182 01:01:52,842 --> 01:01:55,288 The lobby has white marble on both sides, 1183 01:01:55,378 --> 01:01:56,721 but at the very end, 1184 01:01:56,813 --> 01:01:59,692 there's a fantastic white marble square 1185 01:01:59,782 --> 01:02:04,094 for the painting that I had built the show around. 1186 01:02:04,187 --> 01:02:06,224 This would've been almost like 1187 01:02:06,322 --> 01:02:08,097 being in a church. 1188 01:02:12,995 --> 01:02:14,804 I think I had the idea 1189 01:02:14,897 --> 01:02:17,639 of putting Santa Claus on a cross 1190 01:02:17,734 --> 01:02:19,236 from the early '60s. 1191 01:02:19,335 --> 01:02:22,145 I must've had trouble as a kid with Christmas. 1192 01:02:25,942 --> 01:02:27,785 Everything was going fine 1193 01:02:27,877 --> 01:02:29,982 until they looked at my work. 1194 01:02:30,079 --> 01:02:32,525 Santa Claus hanging on a... On a cross. 1195 01:02:32,615 --> 01:02:36,222 That was more than they could take. 1196 01:02:36,319 --> 01:02:38,128 The Santa Claus painting, 1197 01:02:38,221 --> 01:02:42,692 I don't think it ever really made it to the wall. 1198 01:02:42,792 --> 01:02:45,500 The powers that be at Saatchi & Saatchi 1199 01:02:45,595 --> 01:02:47,597 saw it, and they said, "oh, my god." 1200 01:02:47,697 --> 01:02:49,142 They... you know, they... 1201 01:02:49,232 --> 01:02:52,270 And they just literally took it out of the show. 1202 01:02:52,368 --> 01:02:54,370 I attempted to show this painting 1203 01:02:54,470 --> 01:02:55,847 for the next ten years. 1204 01:02:55,938 --> 01:02:58,214 Never could get into a gallery. 1205 01:02:58,307 --> 01:03:00,583 Never could get into anyplace. 1206 01:03:00,676 --> 01:03:03,054 Getting people's attention 1207 01:03:03,146 --> 01:03:05,319 in New York and other places today 1208 01:03:05,414 --> 01:03:07,553 is really a job unto itself. 1209 01:03:07,650 --> 01:03:09,152 And the thing you recognize 1210 01:03:09,252 --> 01:03:11,391 in working inside this world 1211 01:03:11,487 --> 01:03:13,489 is that recognition is the only thing 1212 01:03:13,589 --> 01:03:15,364 we can really offer one another. 1213 01:03:22,265 --> 01:03:24,006 Bob: A lot of people including, 1214 01:03:24,100 --> 01:03:27,980 I guess, my wife think I spend too much time in bars. 1215 01:03:28,070 --> 01:03:32,985 But the truth is I seem to have a pretty good time in bars. 1216 01:03:38,514 --> 01:03:40,050 What happened to my drink? 1217 01:03:40,149 --> 01:03:41,287 Oh, here we are. 1218 01:03:41,384 --> 01:03:43,421 I thought you took my drink. 1219 01:03:43,519 --> 01:03:45,760 It would be just like you, you know? 1220 01:03:45,855 --> 01:03:46,890 I see bars as 1221 01:03:46,989 --> 01:03:48,991 little one-act plays. 1222 01:03:49,091 --> 01:03:50,399 You might meet someone 1223 01:03:50,493 --> 01:03:52,700 that you like or that you don't like. 1224 01:03:52,795 --> 01:03:54,775 I see people who I might... 1225 01:03:54,864 --> 01:03:58,243 Disagree with in politics, this, that, and the other thing. 1226 01:03:58,334 --> 01:04:02,305 And yet most people you can really find a camaraderie with. 1227 01:04:02,405 --> 01:04:03,941 And where... Where do you live now? 1228 01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:05,178 - Boston. - Boston! 1229 01:04:05,274 --> 01:04:06,652 - Yeah. - oh, that's where I was born. 1230 01:04:06,676 --> 01:04:08,053 I was born in Boston. Really? 1231 01:04:08,144 --> 01:04:09,748 Are you a Red Sox fan? 1232 01:04:12,515 --> 01:04:13,926 ♪ Howling everywhere ♪ 1233 01:04:14,016 --> 01:04:17,225 ♪ And no one's going down ♪ 1234 01:04:21,023 --> 01:04:23,299 ♪ Lost inside the memories ♪ 1235 01:04:23,392 --> 01:04:26,339 ♪ Of this lonely town ♪ 1236 01:04:28,764 --> 01:04:30,471 ♪ So many things ♪ 1237 01:04:30,566 --> 01:04:33,672 ♪ That can make a man feel this way ♪ 1238 01:04:36,672 --> 01:04:38,879 ♪ You might win sometimes ♪ 1239 01:04:38,975 --> 01:04:42,013 ♪ But then you're gonna have to pay ♪ 1240 01:04:44,847 --> 01:04:47,293 ♪ But keep rollin" on ♪ 1241 01:04:47,383 --> 01:04:48,885 Backing singers: ♪ rollin' on ♪ 1242 01:04:48,985 --> 01:04:51,363 ♪ Keep rollin' on ♪ 1243 01:04:51,454 --> 01:04:53,593 ♪ Rollin' on ♪ 1244 01:04:53,689 --> 01:04:56,363 ♪ Lived our life ♪ 1245 01:04:56,459 --> 01:04:58,905 ♪ Just keep rollin' on ♪ 1246 01:05:02,398 --> 01:05:04,105 ♪ Future come along ♪ 1247 01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:07,704 ♪ It can bring you right to the ground ♪ 1248 01:05:11,107 --> 01:05:12,586 ♪ Keep on laughing ♪ 1249 01:05:12,675 --> 01:05:15,656 ♪ There's enough laughter to go around ♪ 1250 01:05:16,913 --> 01:05:18,358 ♪ Rollin' rollin' ♪ 1251 01:05:18,447 --> 01:05:21,087 ♪ You keep rollin' on ♪ 1252 01:05:21,183 --> 01:05:22,753 ♪ Rollin' on ♪ 1253 01:05:22,852 --> 01:05:24,129 ♪ Keep rollin' on ♪ 1254 01:05:24,153 --> 01:05:25,153 ♪ Keep rollin' on ♪ 1255 01:05:25,221 --> 01:05:26,666 ♪ Just keep rollin' ♪♪ 1256 01:05:26,756 --> 01:05:28,064 Bob: Russell Speirs was 1257 01:05:28,157 --> 01:05:30,364 a friend of Cenedella and my mother 1258 01:05:30,459 --> 01:05:31,631 when they were married. 1259 01:05:31,727 --> 01:05:34,333 So he was always in the picture. 1260 01:05:34,430 --> 01:05:37,001 Russ had been sick for quite a while. 1261 01:05:37,099 --> 01:05:40,478 And I had been going up to see him in the hospital. 1262 01:05:40,569 --> 01:05:43,072 I got this call from Jim Stafford, 1263 01:05:43,172 --> 01:05:45,209 who was his personal lawyer. 1264 01:05:45,308 --> 01:05:49,347 He wanted to acknowledge me in writing. 1265 01:05:49,445 --> 01:05:51,425 I hardly knew what that meant, 1266 01:05:51,514 --> 01:05:55,087 but, uh, I thought it was maybe a good idea. 1267 01:05:55,184 --> 01:05:57,255 So we're in Stafford's office, 1268 01:05:57,353 --> 01:05:58,661 and he said, 1269 01:05:58,754 --> 01:06:01,735 "Bob, why don't we go have some lunch?" 1270 01:06:01,824 --> 01:06:03,735 So here we were in this bar, 1271 01:06:03,826 --> 01:06:04,964 and he ordered a scotch, 1272 01:06:05,061 --> 01:06:06,734 and so I said, "well, I guess," 1273 01:06:06,829 --> 01:06:10,436 you know, a little early, but I had one also. 1274 01:06:10,533 --> 01:06:11,978 So we drove to the hospital. 1275 01:06:12,068 --> 01:06:16,380 And in the backseat he had an Olivetti typewriter. 1276 01:06:16,472 --> 01:06:17,746 So he sits on the bed, 1277 01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:19,581 and he had one piece of paper with him. 1278 01:06:19,675 --> 01:06:20,915 Now he's gonna... 1279 01:06:21,010 --> 01:06:22,216 Start asking questions. 1280 01:06:22,311 --> 01:06:25,121 "Russ, are you, um, here to state 1281 01:06:25,214 --> 01:06:26,488 "that you are... 1282 01:06:26,582 --> 01:06:31,088 "The father of your said son? 1283 01:06:31,187 --> 01:06:33,599 Are you aware of his birth?" 1284 01:06:33,689 --> 01:06:35,498 So Russ said, "well, yeah, 1285 01:06:35,591 --> 01:06:37,127 of course I was aware of his..." 1286 01:06:37,226 --> 01:06:38,728 "Ahh, good.“ 1287 01:06:42,631 --> 01:06:45,976 he stamps it, he signs it. My father signs it. 1288 01:06:46,068 --> 01:06:47,877 And he spelled "affidavit" wrong. 1289 01:06:47,970 --> 01:06:49,677 And he spelled her mother's name wrong. 1290 01:06:49,772 --> 01:06:52,685 And my last name was spelled wrong. 1291 01:06:52,775 --> 01:06:55,415 And he got the date of my birth wrong. 1292 01:06:55,511 --> 01:06:57,322 But other than that, the thing is like, you know, 1293 01:06:57,346 --> 01:07:00,486 it's pretty, pretty, uh, pretty, pretty accurate. 1294 01:07:02,918 --> 01:07:07,196 He was commissioned to do a mural 1295 01:07:07,289 --> 01:07:09,826 for this fancy lunch place 1296 01:07:09,925 --> 01:07:11,996 on Madison Avenue. 1297 01:07:12,094 --> 01:07:16,406 And the owner of it told him to do all the celebrities 1298 01:07:16,499 --> 01:07:18,638 that patronize Le cirque. 1299 01:07:18,734 --> 01:07:23,945 Le cirque was, oh, just about as popular 1300 01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:26,111 and as famous and as exciting 1301 01:07:26,208 --> 01:07:29,849 as any restaurant could ever be. 1302 01:07:29,945 --> 01:07:32,221 I... well, I said, "I've never been there. 1303 01:07:32,314 --> 01:07:34,590 I don't know what..." So I got to go to Le cirque. 1304 01:07:34,683 --> 01:07:38,859 And the owner, Sirio, said, "it's not possible to..." 1305 01:07:38,954 --> 01:07:39,955 Um! 1306 01:07:40,056 --> 01:07:42,502 So I said I'd do it on a dare. 1307 01:07:42,591 --> 01:07:44,093 And if they didn't like the painting, 1308 01:07:44,193 --> 01:07:45,501 they wouldn't buy it. 1309 01:07:45,594 --> 01:07:48,734 And if they, uh, if they did, we'd come up with a price. 1310 01:07:48,831 --> 01:07:51,107 And so I said yes. 1311 01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:53,976 Sirio not only had the rich and the famous 1312 01:07:54,070 --> 01:07:55,481 and the recognizable. 1313 01:07:55,571 --> 01:07:57,107 There were a couple of people, 1314 01:07:57,206 --> 01:07:59,117 well, more than a couple of people, 1315 01:07:59,208 --> 01:08:02,417 that he wanted to have in there, including his doctor. 1316 01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:05,816 Bob: I just ate anytime 1317 01:08:05,915 --> 01:08:07,326 I would go there. 1318 01:08:07,416 --> 01:08:09,919 It was on the house, you know. 1319 01:08:10,019 --> 01:08:13,262 Sirio never told me what to paint or how to paint, 1320 01:08:13,355 --> 01:08:16,529 and I didn't tell him how to make his sauces. 1321 01:08:16,625 --> 01:08:19,037 Bob didn't have a list to begin with. 1322 01:08:19,128 --> 01:08:21,130 He really had to sit there 1323 01:08:21,230 --> 01:08:23,039 and watch when people would come in 1324 01:08:23,132 --> 01:08:25,271 and someone would say, 1325 01:08:25,367 --> 01:08:27,608 "that's Dr. Henry Kissinger." 1326 01:08:27,703 --> 01:08:31,207 Or "that's Barbara Walters." 1327 01:08:31,307 --> 01:08:35,517 And he would study them and, and, and do the sketching. 1328 01:08:35,611 --> 01:08:37,249 Bob: So I think it was 1329 01:08:37,346 --> 01:08:40,190 about 50 meals later that I told him that 1330 01:08:40,282 --> 01:08:43,991 I was gonna start the drawing. 1331 01:08:44,086 --> 01:08:46,692 And maybe it was another 50 meals later 1332 01:08:46,789 --> 01:08:48,427 that I had the drawing clone 1333 01:08:48,524 --> 01:08:50,231 and I had actually clone some painting 1334 01:08:50,326 --> 01:08:52,135 on this thing, you know? 1335 01:08:52,228 --> 01:08:54,108 And the only thing that he really directed me on 1336 01:08:54,196 --> 01:08:59,145 was who was in the painting, not where they were. 1337 01:08:59,235 --> 01:09:02,512 Liz Smith, I put her next to Nixon, right? 1338 01:09:02,605 --> 01:09:06,451 And then she was astounded when she saw herself next to Nixon. 1339 01:09:06,542 --> 01:09:08,715 So she wrote an article about it. 1340 01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:14,991 Woody Allen is way in the back, 1341 01:09:15,084 --> 01:09:19,555 'cause I never saw him as a hero of mine. 1342 01:09:19,655 --> 01:09:22,135 The portrait is not only a family portrait, 1343 01:09:22,224 --> 01:09:25,000 but it is emblematic of an era. 1344 01:09:25,094 --> 01:09:27,370 And Sirio wanted to capture that. 1345 01:09:27,463 --> 01:09:30,239 And Bob Cenedella did exactly that. 1346 01:09:30,332 --> 01:09:32,539 You feel it when you look at that mural. 1347 01:09:32,635 --> 01:09:35,275 You know what it must've been like 1348 01:09:35,371 --> 01:09:39,683 to be there at that time. 1349 01:09:39,775 --> 01:09:41,550 Bob: I was interviewed by 1350 01:09:41,644 --> 01:09:42,918 "New York magazine" 1351 01:09:43,012 --> 01:09:45,686 I said, "if you do a write-up of this thing, 1352 01:09:45,781 --> 01:09:47,259 I'll... I'll put you in the painting." 1353 01:09:47,283 --> 01:09:48,887 So he said, "definitely." 1354 01:09:48,984 --> 01:09:51,988 Sol put him in the painting, 1355 01:09:52,087 --> 01:09:54,328 and, um, it's now finished. 1356 01:09:54,423 --> 01:09:55,766 He was the last guy to go in. 1357 01:09:55,858 --> 01:09:59,328 And I'm waiting for the "New York" article 1358 01:09:59,428 --> 01:10:00,930 to come out. 1359 01:10:01,030 --> 01:10:02,202 And when it came out, 1360 01:10:02,298 --> 01:10:03,642 there was no picture of the painting. 1361 01:10:03,666 --> 01:10:06,806 There was no... But there's nothing I could do. 1362 01:10:06,902 --> 01:10:10,577 However, Philip Roth was writing a book 1363 01:10:10,673 --> 01:10:13,552 on sons and daughters of blacklisted parents. 1364 01:10:13,642 --> 01:10:16,020 He came to interview me. 1365 01:10:16,111 --> 01:10:18,148 I decided to take out the writer 1366 01:10:18,247 --> 01:10:19,988 for "New York magazine." 1367 01:10:20,082 --> 01:10:23,291 And I put Roth in the painting. 1368 01:10:25,154 --> 01:10:26,827 On opening night, 1369 01:10:26,922 --> 01:10:30,267 the painting was hung at the new Le cirque, 1370 01:10:30,359 --> 01:10:33,863 and the writer for "New York magazine" 1371 01:10:33,963 --> 01:10:36,307 comes with his wife, 1372 01:10:36,398 --> 01:10:39,572 his mother-in-law, a child, 1373 01:10:39,668 --> 01:10:41,875 and comes to show them 1374 01:10:41,971 --> 01:10:45,384 that he's where he is in the "Le cirque" painting. 1375 01:10:45,474 --> 01:10:47,112 And he- and he's kind of... 1376 01:10:47,209 --> 01:10:48,483 He can't find himself. 1377 01:10:48,577 --> 01:10:51,922 And he finally asks Sirio, "Sirio, where am I? 1378 01:10:52,014 --> 01:10:54,620 I don't understand." 1379 01:10:54,717 --> 01:10:59,132 So I got my revenge in the most amazing way. 1380 01:10:59,221 --> 01:11:03,727 But it's all because I was the son of a blacklisted writer, 1381 01:11:03,826 --> 01:11:08,036 and that Philip Roth was doing a book. 1382 01:11:12,134 --> 01:11:16,276 I never really have the instinct to do a political piece. 1383 01:11:16,372 --> 01:11:20,149 I'm much more taken by what's around me. 1384 01:11:22,344 --> 01:11:25,086 You're surrounded by trees. 1385 01:11:25,180 --> 01:11:27,820 You know, you're always aware of these slivers. 1386 01:11:27,916 --> 01:11:31,955 I did a series of very narrow paintings. 1387 01:11:32,054 --> 01:11:34,295 Some of them two and a half inches wide 1388 01:11:34,390 --> 01:11:37,599 and maybe five feet high. 1389 01:11:37,693 --> 01:11:40,867 I call them "slices of Maine." 1390 01:11:40,963 --> 01:11:42,567 By making this shape, 1391 01:11:42,665 --> 01:11:45,236 you go endlessly back. 1392 01:11:45,334 --> 01:11:47,541 Do you really have to see what's on the left 1393 01:11:47,636 --> 01:11:49,707 and what's on the right? 1394 01:11:57,613 --> 01:11:58,757 George Hudson: When we learned that 1395 01:11:58,781 --> 01:12:00,283 Russ was dead, and suddenly 1396 01:12:00,382 --> 01:12:02,692 the news came out that he'd left things 1397 01:12:02,785 --> 01:12:06,961 to this son that nobody knew he had, 1398 01:12:07,056 --> 01:12:11,300 we surmised that this was Russ's last practical joke. 1399 01:12:11,393 --> 01:12:13,634 That he didn't really have a son, 1400 01:12:13,729 --> 01:12:17,336 but that he just picked somebody out of the clear blue sky 1401 01:12:17,433 --> 01:12:21,347 and just gave him everything, you know? 1402 01:12:21,437 --> 01:12:24,475 Russ was as... As full of tricks 1403 01:12:24,573 --> 01:12:27,850 and as much a prankster as anybody I've ever known. 1404 01:12:27,943 --> 01:12:31,413 His sense of humor was famous around here. 1405 01:12:31,513 --> 01:12:32,890 But they didn't tell you about that 1406 01:12:32,981 --> 01:12:35,621 until you'd fallen victim to it. 1407 01:12:37,019 --> 01:12:39,499 Russ was perpetually impish. 1408 01:12:39,588 --> 01:12:42,000 I mean, he looked as if he had a secret. 1409 01:12:42,091 --> 01:12:43,968 All these years, I thought 1410 01:12:44,059 --> 01:12:46,596 "was that kid really Russ's kid or not?" 1411 01:12:46,695 --> 01:12:48,333 He walks in the room, 1412 01:12:48,430 --> 01:12:50,603 and he's the living image of Russ. 1413 01:12:50,699 --> 01:12:53,509 So you think, "there goes that idea." 1414 01:12:53,602 --> 01:12:55,013 He's Russ's kid. 1415 01:12:55,104 --> 01:12:57,778 Couldn't be anybody else's in the whole world. 1416 01:12:59,508 --> 01:13:00,680 Bob: When I found out 1417 01:13:00,776 --> 01:13:02,517 who my father was, I mean, 1418 01:13:02,611 --> 01:13:04,955 humor was his great weapon. 1419 01:13:05,047 --> 01:13:07,391 So genes has a lot to do with everything, 1420 01:13:07,483 --> 01:13:09,292 I'm convinced of that. 1421 01:13:14,623 --> 01:13:16,967 Now, you got a... 1422 01:13:17,059 --> 01:13:18,561 You got a... 1423 01:13:18,660 --> 01:13:20,071 Interesting all right. 1424 01:13:20,162 --> 01:13:22,665 So all these little details. 1425 01:13:22,765 --> 01:13:25,541 Okay, so now you have this... 1426 01:13:25,634 --> 01:13:26,908 This string here, right? 1427 01:13:27,002 --> 01:13:30,814 So, if we have... 1428 01:13:35,911 --> 01:13:37,686 Again, better than a ruler, 1429 01:13:37,780 --> 01:13:39,123 better than tape, 1430 01:13:39,214 --> 01:13:41,592 it's a visual straight line. 1431 01:13:46,388 --> 01:13:48,231 I often tell my students 1432 01:13:48,323 --> 01:13:51,532 I used to take a cutout of a Rembrandt, 1433 01:13:51,627 --> 01:13:53,163 Holbein, 1434 01:13:53,262 --> 01:13:54,536 El Greco, 1435 01:13:54,630 --> 01:13:56,268 And you put these figures in one room. 1436 01:13:56,365 --> 01:13:58,003 And nothing looks real. 1437 01:13:59,168 --> 01:14:02,206 Because those worlds are all distinct. 1438 01:14:02,304 --> 01:14:04,375 They're... every painter, every great painter, 1439 01:14:04,473 --> 01:14:05,781 he creates 1440 01:14:05,874 --> 01:14:08,115 this world that you believe in. 1441 01:14:10,212 --> 01:14:12,488 And a painting, it's... a drawing, 1442 01:14:12,581 --> 01:14:14,426 you wouldn't even think about the background, right? 1443 01:14:14,450 --> 01:14:15,690 No. 'OK, 1444 01:14:15,784 --> 01:14:17,092 but now that it's a painting, 1445 01:14:17,186 --> 01:14:18,995 the background becomes, 1446 01:14:19,087 --> 01:14:23,160 you know, it's half... It's half the canvas, so. 1447 01:14:23,258 --> 01:14:26,796 He doesn't tell me what to paint or how to paint, 1448 01:14:26,895 --> 01:14:29,398 but he'll find something which is not working properly 1449 01:14:29,498 --> 01:14:31,500 within the composition and the color 1450 01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:34,103 or in the drawing or whatever it happens to be. 1451 01:14:34,203 --> 01:14:35,841 And he's very pointed. 1452 01:14:35,938 --> 01:14:37,576 And his critique. 1453 01:14:37,673 --> 01:14:39,550 And his intervention is minimal. 1454 01:14:39,641 --> 01:14:43,214 Which is marvelous, as far as I'm concerned. 1455 01:14:47,416 --> 01:14:48,952 The art students league 1456 01:14:49,051 --> 01:14:51,292 give the instructors a window for a month 1457 01:14:51,386 --> 01:14:52,763 to hang a painting. 1458 01:14:52,855 --> 01:14:54,095 They came to me, and they said, 1459 01:14:54,189 --> 01:14:56,965 "gee, Bob, do you have a Christmas painting?" 1460 01:14:57,059 --> 01:14:58,265 I said, "a Christmas painting." 1461 01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:01,068 I said... yeah, I said I have a Christmas painting. 1462 01:15:01,163 --> 01:15:02,733 I said... 1463 01:15:02,831 --> 01:15:04,367 I said, "but it's not framed." 1464 01:15:04,466 --> 01:15:06,468 I said, "so let... so... 1465 01:15:06,568 --> 01:15:09,447 "Uh, if you just hold the space 1466 01:15:09,538 --> 01:15:10,710 "on a Saturday morning, 1467 01:15:10,806 --> 01:15:12,945 "and I'll... I'll, you know, I'll have it framed. 1468 01:15:13,041 --> 01:15:15,681 "I'll have it... make sure that it gets put in the window, 1469 01:15:15,777 --> 01:15:17,484 and don't worry about it, right?" 1470 01:15:17,579 --> 01:15:19,388 Reporter: Outside the art students 1471 01:15:19,481 --> 01:15:21,620 league in Manhattan, a painting on display 1472 01:15:21,717 --> 01:15:25,597 pictures a crucified Santa with gifts at his feet. 1473 01:15:25,687 --> 01:15:28,600 Here's a look at Santa like you have never seen him before. 1474 01:15:28,690 --> 01:15:31,364 This untitled painting by artist Robert Cenedella 1475 01:15:31,460 --> 01:15:34,031 has sparked quite a controversy in New York City, 1476 01:15:34,129 --> 01:15:36,871 where it sits in a midtown window. 1477 01:15:41,069 --> 01:15:42,447 William Donohue: I'm not questioning 1478 01:15:42,471 --> 01:15:44,041 the motive of the artist, 1479 01:15:44,139 --> 01:15:45,982 but this is a very special time of the year. 1480 01:15:46,074 --> 01:15:47,576 This is a holy season. 1481 01:15:47,676 --> 01:15:49,314 You have to take into consideration 1482 01:15:49,411 --> 01:15:50,688 the number of people, including children, 1483 01:15:50,712 --> 01:15:52,282 walking down the street who might be 1484 01:15:52,381 --> 01:15:53,951 unwittingly offended by it. 1485 01:15:54,049 --> 01:15:56,723 I mean, it's not empirically obvious to everybody 1486 01:15:56,818 --> 01:15:58,764 what the intent is. 1487 01:16:00,989 --> 01:16:02,297 Bob: When people say, oh, 1488 01:16:02,391 --> 01:16:03,665 I was making fun of religion. 1489 01:16:03,759 --> 01:16:06,296 I didn't replace Christ with Santa Claus 1490 01:16:06,395 --> 01:16:07,772 as a symbol of Christmas. 1491 01:16:07,863 --> 01:16:10,867 They just say, "Santa Claus does not belong on a cross." 1492 01:16:10,966 --> 01:16:13,640 No, a good old human being. 1493 01:16:13,735 --> 01:16:16,773 Is what belongs on a cross. 1494 01:16:16,872 --> 01:16:18,351 I have a moral obligation 1495 01:16:18,440 --> 01:16:21,182 to paint what I feel is correct. 1496 01:16:21,276 --> 01:16:23,620 That's“ that's what I have a moral obligation to do. 1497 01:16:26,615 --> 01:16:29,357 I don't consider myself a political artist. 1498 01:16:29,451 --> 01:16:32,625 I'm an artist that does a lot of political' stuff. 1499 01:16:35,691 --> 01:16:37,432 "Battlefield of energy" 1500 01:16:37,526 --> 01:16:39,028 is the name of this painting. 1501 01:16:39,127 --> 01:16:43,041 Is actually the title Jimmy Carter came up with 1502 01:16:43,131 --> 01:16:45,611 when he was concerned about oil prices 1503 01:16:45,701 --> 01:16:47,942 and... and conserving oil. 1504 01:16:48,036 --> 01:16:51,017 On the battlefield of energy, 1505 01:16:51,106 --> 01:16:53,347 we can win for our nation 1506 01:16:53,442 --> 01:16:54,853 a new confidence. 1507 01:16:54,943 --> 01:16:58,220 Jimmy Carter was the first president to... 1508 01:16:58,313 --> 01:17:02,022 Deal with the scarcity of oil 1509 01:17:02,117 --> 01:17:04,358 that didn't exist. 1510 01:17:04,453 --> 01:17:08,902 The idea being that the corporations 1511 01:17:08,991 --> 01:17:10,698 were... 1512 01:17:10,792 --> 01:17:12,362 Somehow running the country. 1513 01:17:12,461 --> 01:17:14,668 And that was in 1979. 1514 01:17:14,763 --> 01:17:16,674 Energy... 1515 01:17:16,765 --> 01:17:17,971 Will be the immediate test 1516 01:17:18,066 --> 01:17:20,740 of our ability to unite this nation. 1517 01:17:20,836 --> 01:17:24,409 Sometimes I really get a kick out of 1518 01:17:24,506 --> 01:17:25,666 some of the things that I do. 1519 01:17:25,707 --> 01:17:27,209 I thought the Coca-Cola tank... 1520 01:17:27,309 --> 01:17:29,346 That was the first tank. 1521 01:17:29,444 --> 01:17:32,323 Then, of course, I had a Mobil tank 1522 01:17:32,414 --> 01:17:34,724 and a Chasel-Manhattan tank. 1523 01:17:34,816 --> 01:17:39,765 An army that's a bank of America army. 1524 01:17:39,855 --> 01:17:41,129 We now know that 1525 01:17:41,223 --> 01:17:44,136 corporations are people. 1526 01:17:44,226 --> 01:17:46,399 Something that didn't exist even then. 1527 01:17:48,563 --> 01:17:50,702 I think that you become a painter of history 1528 01:17:50,799 --> 01:17:53,245 just by painting, 1529 01:17:53,335 --> 01:17:55,906 you know, the world around you. 1530 01:18:51,426 --> 01:18:51,569 The last taboo in art right now 1531 01:18:51,593 --> 01:18:54,130 the last taboo in art right now 1532 01:18:54,229 --> 01:18:56,231 is the kind of sincerity that Bob has, 1533 01:18:56,331 --> 01:18:57,810 the kind of directness. 1534 01:18:57,899 --> 01:18:59,810 You know, everything's supposed to be ironic. 1535 01:18:59,901 --> 01:19:01,812 And it's uncool 1536 01:19:01,903 --> 01:19:03,780 to have the kind of passion that he has. 1537 01:19:03,872 --> 01:19:05,232 And he's just anti-establishment. 1538 01:19:05,273 --> 01:19:07,048 He calls it like it is. 1539 01:19:07,142 --> 01:19:09,645 And people like to smooth things over. 1540 01:19:09,745 --> 01:19:11,486 Not Cenedella. 1541 01:19:11,580 --> 01:19:14,254 He's a chronicler of his time. 1542 01:19:14,349 --> 01:19:15,521 And he... When he says it... 1543 01:19:15,617 --> 01:19:17,358 He's a truth-teller in many ways. 1544 01:19:17,452 --> 01:19:19,728 Various museums and... 1545 01:19:19,821 --> 01:19:21,528 Collectors in the establishment 1546 01:19:21,623 --> 01:19:23,068 decided... 1547 01:19:23,158 --> 01:19:25,104 That this is not art. 1548 01:19:25,193 --> 01:19:28,265 I see him as this kind of pugnacious character 1549 01:19:28,363 --> 01:19:30,240 rushing through, you know, he's... 1550 01:19:30,332 --> 01:19:32,869 He's kind of, you know, like a Don Quixote. 1551 01:19:32,968 --> 01:19:36,643 The art community as a whole 1552 01:19:36,738 --> 01:19:40,049 has always rejected him. 1553 01:19:40,142 --> 01:19:41,314 Not because of his talent, 1554 01:19:41,409 --> 01:19:43,548 but because of his message. 1555 01:19:43,645 --> 01:19:45,784 This is a form of censorship 1556 01:19:45,881 --> 01:19:48,760 they, um, they exert on him. 1557 01:19:48,850 --> 01:19:51,524 Bob Cenedella's got a hard-on for the world 1558 01:19:51,620 --> 01:19:53,361 and is not afraid to show it. 1559 01:20:01,196 --> 01:20:02,607 I can go to bed at night, 1560 01:20:02,697 --> 01:20:05,405 and I think I feel pretty secure 1561 01:20:05,500 --> 01:20:09,209 in what I've clone as a... as an artist. 1562 01:21:07,195 --> 01:21:08,606 ♪ Howling everywhere ♪ 1563 01:21:08,697 --> 01:21:11,906 ♪ And no one's going down ♪ 1564 01:21:15,704 --> 01:21:17,980 ♪ Lost inside the memories ♪ 1565 01:21:18,073 --> 01:21:21,020 ♪ Of this lonely town ♪ 1566 01:21:23,445 --> 01:21:25,152 ♪ So many things ♪ 1567 01:21:25,247 --> 01:21:28,353 ♪ That can make a man feel this way ♪ 1568 01:21:31,353 --> 01:21:33,560 ♪ You might win sometimes ♪ 1569 01:21:33,655 --> 01:21:36,693 ♪ But then you're gonna have to pay ♪ 1570 01:21:39,527 --> 01:21:41,973 ♪ But keep rollin' on ♪ 1571 01:21:42,063 --> 01:21:43,565 Backing singers: ♪ rollin' on ♪ 1572 01:21:43,665 --> 01:21:46,043 ♪ Keep rollin' on ♪ 1573 01:21:46,134 --> 01:21:48,273 ♪ Rollin' on ♪ 1574 01:21:48,370 --> 01:21:50,441 ♪ Live your life ♪ 1575 01:21:50,538 --> 01:21:53,212 ♪ Just keep rollin' on ♪ 1576 01:21:56,244 --> 01:21:58,554 ♪ Well, keep rollin' on ♪ 1577 01:21:58,647 --> 01:22:01,253 ♪ Rollin' on ♪ 1578 01:22:01,349 --> 01:22:04,330 - ♪ Rollin' on ♪ - ♪ just keep rollin' ♪ 1579 01:22:04,419 --> 01:22:06,421 ♪ Oh, the world may change ♪ 1580 01:22:06,521 --> 01:22:09,730 ♪ But life keeps rollin' on ♪ 1581 01:22:13,194 --> 01:22:14,901 ♪ Future come long ♪ 1582 01:22:14,996 --> 01:22:18,443 ♪ It can bring you right to the ground ♪ 1583 01:22:21,836 --> 01:22:23,315 ♪ Keep on laughing ♪ 1584 01:22:23,405 --> 01:22:26,784 ♪ There's enough laughter to go around ♪ 1585 01:22:29,611 --> 01:22:31,352 ♪ Give your love to a woman ♪ 1586 01:22:31,446 --> 01:22:34,950 ♪ And she break your heart in two ♪ 1587 01:22:38,620 --> 01:22:39,655 ♪ Don't give up ♪ 1588 01:22:39,754 --> 01:22:42,701 ♪ I tell you what you gotta do ♪ 1589 01:22:45,694 --> 01:22:48,334 ♪ Keep rollin' on ♪ 1590 01:22:48,430 --> 01:22:50,000 ♪ Rollin' on ♪ 1591 01:22:50,098 --> 01:22:52,374 ♪ Keep rollin' on ♪ 1592 01:22:52,467 --> 01:22:54,071 ♪ Rollin' on ♪ 1593 01:22:54,169 --> 01:22:56,581 ♪ Don't be insane ♪ 1594 01:22:56,671 --> 01:22:58,878 ♪ Just keep rollin' on ♪ 1595 01:22:58,974 --> 01:23:02,183 ♪ Rollin' rollin' rollin' rollin' ♪ 1596 01:23:02,277 --> 01:23:04,587 ♪ Keep rollin' on ♪ 1597 01:23:04,679 --> 01:23:06,352 ♪ Rollin' on ♪ 1598 01:23:06,448 --> 01:23:08,792 ♪ Well, keep rollin' on ♪ 1599 01:23:08,883 --> 01:23:10,556 ♪ Just keep rollin' ♪ 1600 01:23:10,652 --> 01:23:12,654 ♪ Well, the world may change ♪ 1601 01:23:12,754 --> 01:23:15,530 ♪ But life keeps rollin' on ♪ 1602 01:23:37,712 --> 01:23:40,090 ♪ Keep rollin' on ♪ 1603 01:23:40,181 --> 01:23:41,558 ♪ Rollin' on ♪ 1604 01:23:41,649 --> 01:23:43,925 ♪ Well, keep rollin' on ♪ 1605 01:23:44,019 --> 01:23:45,726 ♪ Rollin' on ♪ 1606 01:23:45,820 --> 01:23:48,824 ♪ Oh, live your life ♪ 1607 01:23:48,923 --> 01:23:50,664 ♪ Just keep rollin' on ♪ 1608 01:23:50,759 --> 01:23:54,036 ♪ Rollin' rollin' rollin' rollin' ♪ 1609 01:23:54,129 --> 01:23:56,507 ♪ Well, keep rollin' on ♪ 1610 01:23:56,598 --> 01:23:58,134 ♪ Rollin' on ♪ 1611 01:23:58,233 --> 01:24:00,804 ♪ Well, keep rollin' on ♪ 1612 01:24:00,902 --> 01:24:02,506 ♪ Just keep rollin' ♪ 1613 01:24:02,604 --> 01:24:04,447 ♪ Oh, the world may change ♪ 1614 01:24:04,539 --> 01:24:07,110 ♪ But life keeps rollin' on ♪ 120637

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