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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:07,258 --> 00:00:11,161 I feel like something bad is gonna happen to me. 2 00:00:12,414 --> 00:00:15,816 I feel like something bad has happened. 3 00:00:15,817 --> 00:00:19,236 It hasn't reached me yet, but it's on its way. 4 00:00:31,490 --> 00:00:32,399 I don't know why it's important. 5 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,736 It's like how it helps people, like, dealing with her loss, 6 00:00:35,737 --> 00:00:39,239 like making up stories about ghosts or whatever. 7 00:00:51,136 --> 00:00:53,470 Alice kept secrets. 8 00:00:53,471 --> 00:00:57,624 She kept the fact she kept secrets a secret. 9 00:01:06,734 --> 00:01:08,802 It's hard for some people to understand, 10 00:01:08,803 --> 00:01:11,405 but you have to believe you're to blame 11 00:01:11,406 --> 00:01:14,441 or else there's nothing to hold on to. 12 00:01:48,660 --> 00:01:50,861 Police and emergency service. 13 00:01:50,862 --> 00:01:53,130 My daughter, Alice, has gone missing. We need some... 14 00:01:53,131 --> 00:01:54,398 How long ago did you last... 15 00:01:54,399 --> 00:01:56,900 She was in the dam... Looked everywhere. 16 00:02:00,555 --> 00:02:01,956 Do you know where you are? 17 00:02:01,957 --> 00:02:05,659 We're on the other side of the dam. She's been missing for quite a few... 18 00:02:05,660 --> 00:02:06,710 Okay. 19 00:02:06,711 --> 00:02:08,528 Please send someone now. 20 00:02:08,529 --> 00:02:10,464 I need you to talk to me for a second. 21 00:02:10,465 --> 00:02:12,990 We don't know where she is. 22 00:02:12,100 --> 00:02:14,584 Hello, June, can you hear me? 23 00:02:24,879 --> 00:02:26,280 The normally tranquil setting 24 00:02:26,281 --> 00:02:28,732 of Ararat's Norval Dam was shattered yesterday 25 00:02:28,733 --> 00:02:31,518 with the disappearance of 16-year-old Alice Palmer 26 00:02:31,519 --> 00:02:33,503 while picnicking with her family. 27 00:02:33,504 --> 00:02:37,691 We received a call around 6:00 p.m. tonight of a missing girl, 28 00:02:37,692 --> 00:02:39,460 and on discovering the nature of the situation 29 00:02:39,461 --> 00:02:42,129 we called in the search-and-rescue divers from Melbourne. 30 00:02:42,130 --> 00:02:45,665 Police divers entered the water around 10:00 with SES volunteers 31 00:02:45,666 --> 00:02:47,451 joining a fruitless search... 32 00:02:47,452 --> 00:02:51,287 Matt and Ali had swum out to the middle of the dam. 33 00:02:51,288 --> 00:02:55,626 I could see them from where I was sitting at the picnic area. 34 00:02:55,627 --> 00:02:57,928 I think we'd been in the water for about 15 minutes, 35 00:02:57,929 --> 00:03:01,731 and I said that I was gonna get out. It was cold. 36 00:03:02,917 --> 00:03:05,652 So, I started swimming back and she didn't come out with me, 37 00:03:05,653 --> 00:03:08,888 so I thought she's gonna stay in there. 38 00:03:09,558 --> 00:03:11,959 I remember Matty got out, 39 00:03:13,211 --> 00:03:18,531 and a few minutes later, I heard him ask where was Alice. 40 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,774 So, I stood up and looked out across the dam, 41 00:03:26,775 --> 00:03:30,543 and the water was completely still. 42 00:03:31,813 --> 00:03:34,865 So I called out. 43 00:03:34,866 --> 00:03:39,503 I looked out over the water to see if I could see her. 44 00:03:41,989 --> 00:03:45,392 And both the boys had kind of checked, 45 00:03:45,393 --> 00:03:49,863 you know, the bush land behind. 46 00:03:49,864 --> 00:03:53,817 I could see Alice's towel, she'd left it on the ground, 47 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,488 and she clearly hadn't got out of the water 48 00:03:57,489 --> 00:04:01,892 because then, you know, she would have picked up her towel, so... 49 00:04:03,270 --> 00:04:06,997 Yeah, that was the last time that I saw her. 50 00:04:27,869 --> 00:04:31,788 Police continue to hold grave fears for 16-year-old Alice Palmer 51 00:04:31,789 --> 00:04:34,408 who disappeared while picnicking with her family. 52 00:04:34,409 --> 00:04:35,792 Police search-and-rescue divers... 53 00:04:35,793 --> 00:04:38,261 We were told to go home, 54 00:04:40,980 --> 00:04:43,484 and if the search-and-rescue divers found anything 55 00:04:43,485 --> 00:04:45,952 then they'd let us know immediately. 56 00:04:57,966 --> 00:05:00,351 It felt very strange in the car on the way home 57 00:05:00,352 --> 00:05:03,253 because there was one empty seat. 58 00:05:03,254 --> 00:05:08,508 One minute she was there and then gone. 59 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,914 I went back to stay with the Palmers that night. 60 00:05:13,915 --> 00:05:17,984 We were just mostly waiting, mostly waiting for news. 61 00:05:20,154 --> 00:05:24,391 For bad news. There was that expectation. 62 00:05:24,392 --> 00:05:29,496 We got a call from Russell on his mobile about 9:00 at night. 63 00:05:29,497 --> 00:05:34,000 And he said there'd been an accident at the weir, 64 00:05:34,100 --> 00:05:36,670 and Alice had gone missing. 65 00:05:36,671 --> 00:05:41,341 So, we thought that we better go to Ararat. 66 00:05:41,342 --> 00:05:46,596 I remember June was a bit funny about seeing Iris, 67 00:05:46,597 --> 00:05:50,234 there was a strange feeling between them. 68 00:05:50,235 --> 00:05:54,487 It felt a little strange having my mother there. 69 00:05:55,289 --> 00:05:57,874 Mum and I, there for Alice, 70 00:05:59,127 --> 00:06:02,629 just didn't feel like the right order of things. 71 00:06:04,599 --> 00:06:07,717 It was an awful, awful night. 72 00:06:07,718 --> 00:06:09,536 Worst night of our lives. 73 00:06:09,537 --> 00:06:11,171 Mmm-hmm. 74 00:06:14,525 --> 00:06:17,294 I went into Alice's room later that night 75 00:06:17,295 --> 00:06:24,300 and her phone went off a couple of times, but I didn't answer it. 76 00:06:30,341 --> 00:06:34,100 I remember, the bed was made. 77 00:06:34,110 --> 00:06:37,480 I remember thinking how neat everything looked. 78 00:06:51,278 --> 00:06:54,915 I got a call from Alice's mum, June. 79 00:06:54,916 --> 00:06:58,368 She'd said that Alice is missing 80 00:06:58,369 --> 00:07:01,204 and presumed, like, she drowned 81 00:07:02,740 --> 00:07:04,574 and I didn't not believe her, 82 00:07:04,575 --> 00:07:08,945 but, I don't know, it was kind of hard to take, 83 00:07:08,946 --> 00:07:12,816 so I actually called Alice's mobile. 84 00:07:12,817 --> 00:07:14,668 I just... 85 00:07:16,537 --> 00:07:17,905 Maybe wanted to see if... 86 00:07:17,906 --> 00:07:20,957 Hope it was a joke or something, I don't know. 87 00:07:20,958 --> 00:07:24,600 It was just a real shock. 88 00:07:25,463 --> 00:07:28,664 Just didn't really feel like it was real. 89 00:07:30,735 --> 00:07:32,703 Everything was the same as always, 90 00:07:32,704 --> 00:07:35,839 but people were saying Alice had drowned. 91 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,909 Are there any memories from that night that stand out for you? 92 00:07:41,512 --> 00:07:44,380 I remember we had the porch light on. 93 00:07:45,820 --> 00:07:48,510 Still do, actually, just in case. 94 00:07:48,786 --> 00:07:50,787 And why is that? 95 00:07:59,397 --> 00:08:02,398 Just in case she comes home, I guess. 96 00:08:24,772 --> 00:08:26,773 All right, get in. 97 00:08:30,144 --> 00:08:35,282 The SES divers located Alice's body at approximately 9:25 p.m. 98 00:08:35,283 --> 00:08:39,319 They used sonar to locate her. And she'd drifted some way 99 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:45,125 and come to rest on a shelf at the bottom of the storm water system in the dam. 100 00:08:45,126 --> 00:08:48,862 Obviously contacted the family immediately. 101 00:08:48,863 --> 00:08:51,865 As soon as we were told that they'd found the body, 102 00:08:51,866 --> 00:08:53,267 June and I went down to the dam. 103 00:08:53,268 --> 00:08:55,469 Georgie'd come over to keep Matt company. 104 00:08:55,470 --> 00:08:58,772 It was all very official and formal, 105 00:08:58,773 --> 00:09:00,573 and they asked me to sign a statement 106 00:09:00,574 --> 00:09:02,159 of identification. 107 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,511 June stayed in the car. 108 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:08,281 And, you know, on reflection, I think that was a mistake 109 00:09:08,282 --> 00:09:11,184 because she didn't have any closure. 110 00:09:12,887 --> 00:09:17,390 I just couldn't bring myself to identify Alice's body. 111 00:09:18,342 --> 00:09:22,545 She'd been underwater all that time and it... 112 00:09:22,546 --> 00:09:25,415 I guess it's not how I... 113 00:09:25,416 --> 00:09:29,469 I didn't want to remember her in that way. 114 00:09:29,470 --> 00:09:35,341 I thought that was my responsibility as Ali's dad, you know. 115 00:09:37,478 --> 00:09:39,879 That's what a father does. 116 00:09:59,283 --> 00:10:02,352 The car stalled on the way back from the dam. 117 00:10:02,353 --> 00:10:05,589 But the only gear I could get it into was reverse. 118 00:10:05,590 --> 00:10:09,392 So, we drove back into town in reverse. 119 00:10:10,227 --> 00:10:12,950 Which was either that or walk. 120 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,980 And given everything that had happened, 121 00:10:15,990 --> 00:10:17,901 seemed like the better option, really. 122 00:10:28,963 --> 00:10:32,732 The autopsy was performed on the Monday, the 27th. 123 00:10:34,802 --> 00:10:40,757 Then the coroner released the body on Tuesday, the 28th. 124 00:10:43,644 --> 00:10:48,949 It was very strange spending Christmas Day with the family up there 125 00:10:48,950 --> 00:10:51,884 while Alice lay alone in the morgue. 126 00:11:01,812 --> 00:11:06,450 I don't know, it was just like I hadn't seen her for a week or anything, like... 127 00:11:06,451 --> 00:11:09,520 Yeah, it didn't feel real. 128 00:11:13,641 --> 00:11:16,659 Death takes everything eventually. 129 00:11:16,660 --> 00:11:19,396 It's the meanest, dumbest machine there is, and it just keeps coming 130 00:11:19,397 --> 00:11:21,563 and it doesn't care. 131 00:11:23,501 --> 00:11:26,903 There's nothing else to know about it, really. 132 00:11:29,106 --> 00:11:32,675 It was a somber day for the family and friends of Alice Palmer 133 00:11:32,676 --> 00:11:37,280 who gathered to pay their final respects to a young woman taken too soon. 134 00:11:37,281 --> 00:11:42,850 She was a great person. Very popular, clever, lovely. 135 00:11:42,860 --> 00:11:44,187 She was... I don't... Yeah. 136 00:11:44,188 --> 00:11:45,789 Alice is remembered as a happy, 137 00:11:45,790 --> 00:11:48,275 fun-loving girl with a zest for life. 138 00:11:48,276 --> 00:11:50,210 Described as always putting others... 139 00:11:50,211 --> 00:11:53,713 The Palmers were really doing it tough at that time. 140 00:11:54,765 --> 00:11:58,618 And when I think of how bad it was back then, 141 00:11:58,619 --> 00:12:02,288 it's hard to imagine how much worse they would get. 142 00:12:15,119 --> 00:12:19,456 Ten days after Ali's funeral, so that makes it the 15th of January, 143 00:12:19,457 --> 00:12:24,994 stuff started happening around the house. Noises in the roof, 144 00:12:24,995 --> 00:12:29,416 and sounds coming from outside the window 145 00:12:29,417 --> 00:12:34,370 and other movements that seemed to come from Ali's old room. 146 00:12:35,656 --> 00:12:40,276 So, we re-hung the door to Ali's room, 147 00:12:40,277 --> 00:12:44,280 and we got a pest controller to come in and check for termites. 148 00:12:44,281 --> 00:12:46,649 But it didn't help at all, 149 00:12:46,650 --> 00:12:51,587 the door kept slamming and we still kept getting the noises from her room. 150 00:12:53,541 --> 00:12:56,109 There was just something weird about that house. 151 00:12:56,110 --> 00:12:59,450 It had a really strange feeling about it. 152 00:12:59,460 --> 00:13:02,865 I really can't explain to you what it was exactly, 153 00:13:02,866 --> 00:13:04,484 but you'd go in there 154 00:13:04,485 --> 00:13:08,121 and just have this bad feeling, like, in your gut. 155 00:13:17,231 --> 00:13:20,517 I started having these nightmares, 156 00:13:20,518 --> 00:13:24,287 and they were so distressing 157 00:13:24,288 --> 00:13:29,926 that sometimes I just wouldn't want to open my eyes. 158 00:13:29,927 --> 00:13:32,628 I'd woken up, but I didn't want to open my eyes. 159 00:13:34,415 --> 00:13:39,318 There was one particular one, it was quite vivid and recurring. 160 00:13:39,319 --> 00:13:44,190 Alice would come down the hall still dripping from the dam 161 00:13:44,191 --> 00:13:49,763 and just stand at the foot of our bed, just staring at us. 162 00:13:49,764 --> 00:13:55,434 It was quite terrifying, as I said, I didn't want to open my eyes. 163 00:13:59,107 --> 00:14:02,642 By early February my nightmares were getting so bad 164 00:14:02,643 --> 00:14:06,279 that I began to go for walks at night, 165 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,531 sometimes for hours at a time, 166 00:14:08,532 --> 00:14:11,218 just so that I didn't have to go to bed at night 167 00:14:11,219 --> 00:14:13,970 and close my eyes and go to sleep. 168 00:14:17,225 --> 00:14:21,194 Sometimes I would actually go into people's houses. 169 00:14:21,195 --> 00:14:25,198 I didn't feel like I was doing anything wrong. 170 00:14:25,199 --> 00:14:30,469 I guess I really just wanted to be inside someone else's life for a while. 171 00:14:41,449 --> 00:14:44,667 Georgie, do you remember how Russell was doing at that time? 172 00:14:44,668 --> 00:14:49,439 Yeah, Russell was... He was working a lot at that point. 173 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:53,309 I think that might have helped him with his grief. 174 00:14:53,310 --> 00:14:55,745 Send it through without any explanation. 175 00:14:55,746 --> 00:14:57,263 Russell and I met 176 00:14:57,264 --> 00:15:00,990 actually on the Gippsland Catchment project in '98 177 00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:02,335 and worked together on that. 178 00:15:02,336 --> 00:15:04,370 So, you guys have known each other for a few years? 179 00:15:04,380 --> 00:15:06,772 Yeah, a good few years, yeah. 180 00:15:08,509 --> 00:15:10,727 Do you remember how he was affected after Alice's death? 181 00:15:10,728 --> 00:15:12,828 What changed? 182 00:15:12,829 --> 00:15:17,317 It was work as normal, and that was troubling actually. 183 00:15:17,318 --> 00:15:20,987 I didn't really know what to say to him about that. 184 00:15:21,755 --> 00:15:23,523 You never spoke about it? 185 00:15:23,524 --> 00:15:26,509 Not really. Everyone grieves in their own way. 186 00:15:26,510 --> 00:15:32,349 And it wasn't really my place to be telling him how to feel. 187 00:15:32,350 --> 00:15:35,385 But I certainly... I certainly was concerned. 188 00:15:37,187 --> 00:15:41,730 I was really grateful that I had my work. 189 00:15:41,740 --> 00:15:43,994 And, I mean, I felt really guilty about that at the time. 190 00:15:43,995 --> 00:15:47,463 But, you know, I just wanted to get on with it. 191 00:15:51,568 --> 00:15:55,455 Then one night, in late February, 192 00:15:55,456 --> 00:15:59,459 I came home from work, and I was sitting in the kitchen 193 00:15:59,460 --> 00:16:02,611 and I heard a noise coming from Ali's room. 194 00:16:03,930 --> 00:16:08,401 So, I went into Ali's room, and I don't really know why, 195 00:16:08,402 --> 00:16:11,921 but I sort of found myself sitting down 196 00:16:11,922 --> 00:16:13,822 in the chair in front of the dresser. 197 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,327 And before I could kind of work out what I was doing there, 198 00:16:18,328 --> 00:16:21,865 Ali walked in and she went over to her desk 199 00:16:21,866 --> 00:16:23,767 and started sharpening a pencil, 200 00:16:23,768 --> 00:16:31,740 and then she looked like she was checking for a text message on her phone. 201 00:16:31,750 --> 00:16:34,377 And, you know, I was completely freaked out. 202 00:16:35,379 --> 00:16:39,148 She was completely oblivious to my presence. 203 00:16:40,718 --> 00:16:44,453 And then I don't know what happened, I must have moved the bed 204 00:16:44,454 --> 00:16:46,890 or, you know, squeaked my shoes or something, 205 00:16:46,891 --> 00:16:49,492 but she went completely rigid. 206 00:16:50,327 --> 00:16:55,865 And I knew then that she knew I was there. 207 00:16:55,866 --> 00:17:01,470 And she slowly turned around and she looked me right in the eye fully for, 208 00:17:01,471 --> 00:17:04,640 you know, what felt like forever. 209 00:17:04,641 --> 00:17:10,379 And then she just came at me and stood up and said, "Get out! Get out!" 210 00:17:10,380 --> 00:17:14,817 And I just got up and went out as fast as I could. 211 00:17:16,187 --> 00:17:17,853 I could hear Russell crying. 212 00:17:17,854 --> 00:17:19,322 And he was here in the kitchen, 213 00:17:19,323 --> 00:17:21,357 Mathew and I both found him in here, 214 00:17:21,358 --> 00:17:23,592 and he was sobbing. 215 00:17:23,593 --> 00:17:26,495 He was absolutely inconsolable. 216 00:17:26,496 --> 00:17:29,782 Do you believe Russell when he says he saw a ghost? 217 00:17:29,783 --> 00:17:33,619 Yeah, I do. I believe he saw what he saw. 218 00:17:33,620 --> 00:17:38,991 And he wouldn't... He's not the kind of man to make something up. 219 00:17:38,992 --> 00:17:42,762 So, I believe he saw something. 220 00:17:42,763 --> 00:17:47,433 Whether it's a real ghost or not, I don't really know. 221 00:17:47,434 --> 00:17:49,635 But I'm sure he saw something. 222 00:18:07,304 --> 00:18:11,407 I remember trying to talk to members of the church 223 00:18:11,408 --> 00:18:15,795 about how to help June and how to help the Palmers. 224 00:18:15,796 --> 00:18:20,800 But there just didn't seem like there was anything we could do. 225 00:18:20,801 --> 00:18:23,302 I think part of the reason was 226 00:18:23,303 --> 00:18:24,804 because they weren't churchgoers. 227 00:18:24,805 --> 00:18:28,223 So, didn't know how to offer them comfort. 228 00:18:30,994 --> 00:18:35,150 I don't even know what June believes in. 229 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,417 I found myself mostly concerned about Mathew. 230 00:18:39,519 --> 00:18:42,772 I guess because those two were always so close, 231 00:18:42,773 --> 00:18:45,507 I was worried how he would cope. 232 00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:56,819 I remember he was spending a lot more time alone. 233 00:18:58,405 --> 00:19:00,989 We were all worried about him. 234 00:19:04,295 --> 00:19:08,731 Mathew came in with some unusual bruises on his body. 235 00:19:08,732 --> 00:19:13,870 They were unusual in terms of their distribution and depth. 236 00:19:13,871 --> 00:19:17,774 We obviously took a history, trying to exclude trauma, 237 00:19:17,775 --> 00:19:22,120 but there was certainly no history of trauma that he was able to give us. 238 00:19:22,130 --> 00:19:23,946 We tested him for vasculitis, 239 00:19:23,947 --> 00:19:28,751 and we also excluded any poisoning or toxins in his system. 240 00:19:28,752 --> 00:19:31,454 We were unable to turn up anything conclusive. 241 00:19:31,455 --> 00:19:37,794 And several weeks after this, the bruises just resolved spontaneously. 242 00:19:37,795 --> 00:19:41,881 And we were never able to really establish a cause for them. 243 00:19:44,351 --> 00:19:48,137 My name's Steve Wilkie. I'm Mathew's best friend. 244 00:19:48,138 --> 00:19:52,157 I usually stay at Mathew's house two or three times a week. 245 00:19:54,895 --> 00:20:02,840 We started a band together, so, we normally play music at my house. 246 00:20:02,850 --> 00:20:06,506 Mathew seems a bit quieter, but he was always pretty quiet, 247 00:20:06,507 --> 00:20:11,677 so, I guess there wasn't really any warning bells going off or anything. 248 00:20:11,678 --> 00:20:15,810 Well, I had heard about June going into people's houses. 249 00:20:15,820 --> 00:20:17,884 And Mathew never really seemed to want to talk about any of that. 250 00:20:17,885 --> 00:20:20,719 I never asked him about any of it. 251 00:20:26,260 --> 00:20:29,110 I know that he was always interested in photography. 252 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:30,896 And he was... 253 00:20:30,897 --> 00:20:35,451 At this time, he was starting to pursue it with more passion. 254 00:20:38,973 --> 00:20:42,375 Mathew came to me, he was very keen 255 00:20:42,376 --> 00:20:44,110 to find out anything about photography. 256 00:20:44,111 --> 00:20:47,680 So, I was more than willing to help out, that's what I do. 257 00:20:47,681 --> 00:20:51,417 So, he was picking my brains about just about anything to do with it, 258 00:20:51,418 --> 00:20:55,704 from equipment, down to techniques, down to lighting, you know. 259 00:20:55,705 --> 00:20:59,892 But he was a great asset, so, I mean, eventually I employed him. 260 00:21:25,318 --> 00:21:27,987 Mathew, can you talk to me about the photographs 261 00:21:27,988 --> 00:21:31,223 of the backyard that you've been taking? 262 00:21:32,259 --> 00:21:36,462 Yeah, basically I've taken that same photo 263 00:21:36,463 --> 00:21:41,100 with that composition for, I think, every three months for the past four years. 264 00:21:41,101 --> 00:21:43,803 And it's just a photograph of the backyard. 265 00:21:43,804 --> 00:21:46,656 Looking out, you can see the hills in the distance. 266 00:21:46,657 --> 00:21:48,991 It's just like a little project 267 00:21:48,992 --> 00:21:52,610 that I set up for myself when we got here. 268 00:21:52,620 --> 00:21:57,116 And what was in the April 28th photograph that was different? 269 00:21:57,117 --> 00:22:02,321 Well, it's basically the same shot, 270 00:22:03,740 --> 00:22:08,677 but it would appear that Alice is standing against the fence. 271 00:22:16,687 --> 00:22:20,556 Do you remember what the reaction in the house was at the time? 272 00:22:20,557 --> 00:22:26,620 I wouldn't say the mood was good, but it was better than before. 273 00:22:26,630 --> 00:22:31,667 It was like... Like it gave us sort of something to focus on, I think. 274 00:22:31,668 --> 00:22:33,335 All of us. 275 00:22:36,857 --> 00:22:39,292 The photographs were taken on the 3rd of April, 276 00:22:39,293 --> 00:22:45,614 and they were developed on the 4th, and I looked at them, I think on the 5th. 277 00:22:45,615 --> 00:22:50,520 And looked at the dams and the water levels and I was quite happy. 278 00:22:50,530 --> 00:22:53,939 But it was only the following night that it was pointed out to me by my wife 279 00:22:53,940 --> 00:22:55,374 that there was something in the background 280 00:22:55,375 --> 00:22:58,143 in Norval Dam, this image came up. 281 00:23:11,725 --> 00:23:13,959 When I first looked at the photograph, 282 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,178 I didn't know what to make of it. 283 00:23:16,179 --> 00:23:18,831 The image was quite unsettling 284 00:23:18,832 --> 00:23:22,417 because it certainly looked like Alice. 285 00:23:23,620 --> 00:23:27,155 It was an incredibly discomforting image. 286 00:23:31,728 --> 00:23:35,263 And I became convinced that Alice was still alive. 287 00:23:42,239 --> 00:23:47,108 I didn't have any rational explanation for who was in those photos. 288 00:23:48,112 --> 00:23:52,515 But I did know something about Alice that June didn't. 289 00:23:52,516 --> 00:23:57,720 I'd seen Alice's body. I didn't think she was alive. 290 00:23:59,123 --> 00:24:01,740 I knew she wasn't. 291 00:24:01,741 --> 00:24:06,610 I became convinced that Russell had made a mistake. 292 00:24:06,620 --> 00:24:10,310 He himself said that it didn't look like anybody anymore. 293 00:24:12,402 --> 00:24:14,286 June was so convinced that I'd made a mistake 294 00:24:14,287 --> 00:24:17,222 that I actually started to have doubts myself. 295 00:24:17,223 --> 00:24:21,894 I started to think maybe I'd made my mind up 296 00:24:21,895 --> 00:24:25,631 that it was Alice's body before I'd looked, 297 00:24:25,632 --> 00:24:29,852 and that the circumstances were so compelling for me, 298 00:24:29,853 --> 00:24:33,905 that I'd decided that it was her. 299 00:24:36,226 --> 00:24:40,679 More than three months after the funeral of Ararat teenager Alice Palmer, 300 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,480 her grieving parents formally requested 301 00:24:43,490 --> 00:24:45,651 her body be exhumed from the general cemetery. 302 00:24:45,652 --> 00:24:48,454 There has been some contention from the Palmer family 303 00:24:48,455 --> 00:24:51,991 about the accuracy of the original body identification. 304 00:24:51,992 --> 00:24:56,762 June and Russell Palmer were adamant that DNA testing be carried out. 305 00:24:56,763 --> 00:24:59,150 They just couldn't be sure that the body they identified 306 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:00,249 was indeed Alice. 307 00:25:00,250 --> 00:25:01,550 And today, almost... 308 00:25:01,551 --> 00:25:03,119 Alice's body was exhumed 309 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:06,189 in the presence of the funeral director, Dr. Slatter, 310 00:25:06,190 --> 00:25:09,576 and there was a representative from the coroner's office also. 311 00:25:09,577 --> 00:25:12,378 And it was then transported to Ararat Base Hospital 312 00:25:12,379 --> 00:25:14,914 where they took the DNA samples. 313 00:25:14,915 --> 00:25:18,483 And she stayed there until the results came back. 314 00:25:22,122 --> 00:25:24,824 A few days later we received a copy 315 00:25:24,825 --> 00:25:28,627 of the coroner's preliminary report, 316 00:25:28,628 --> 00:25:34,966 and Alice's identity was confirmed by the DNA sample match. 317 00:25:36,319 --> 00:25:40,774 It was only after they'd confirmed that it was Alice's body 318 00:25:40,775 --> 00:25:43,292 that I realized how much that I'd invested 319 00:25:43,293 --> 00:25:47,212 in the possibility of it not being her. 320 00:25:47,213 --> 00:25:51,350 You know, I can't tell you how much I wanted there to have been 321 00:25:51,351 --> 00:25:56,321 a terrible mistake, even if it had been mine. 322 00:25:56,322 --> 00:26:00,526 Really, really wanted there to have been somebody else's kid in that dam. 323 00:26:00,527 --> 00:26:03,128 A runaway, a murder victim. 324 00:26:03,129 --> 00:26:06,866 Just anybody else's, just as long as it wasn't my kid. 325 00:26:06,867 --> 00:26:09,601 Just as long as it wasn't Alice. 326 00:26:27,887 --> 00:26:29,171 Yes, it is. 327 00:26:31,274 --> 00:26:32,241 Stop it. 328 00:26:42,152 --> 00:26:43,418 Oh, my God. 329 00:26:52,695 --> 00:26:56,614 Alice was reburied two days later, on the 7th of June. 330 00:26:58,568 --> 00:27:04,720 But the question remained, who or what was in those photos? 331 00:27:25,762 --> 00:27:29,115 Well, I continued to hear things, and... 332 00:27:29,116 --> 00:27:32,201 What did you hear? I was hearing noises. Sort of... 333 00:27:32,202 --> 00:27:35,454 They didn't really relent. I kept hearing noises in the hallway. 334 00:27:35,455 --> 00:27:38,374 So, I thought, "Well, I'll just set up a camera 335 00:27:38,375 --> 00:27:42,611 "to see if I see anything, see something." 336 00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:14,543 The first night I looked back and there was footage of a figure 337 00:28:14,544 --> 00:28:20,899 moving from the lounge room across the hallway to the front door. 338 00:28:32,828 --> 00:28:35,564 You're on Voice FM, 8:02. 339 00:28:35,565 --> 00:28:37,316 I'm Helen Bath and we're taking calls 340 00:28:37,317 --> 00:28:40,637 with psychic consultant, Ray Kemeney. 341 00:28:40,638 --> 00:28:42,638 Next we have Nadia on the line, Ray. 342 00:28:42,639 --> 00:28:45,741 Hi, Nadia, how are you? What can I do for you? 343 00:28:45,742 --> 00:28:48,994 My question is about career, and I've also got a question about family. 344 00:28:48,995 --> 00:28:51,330 It was around about that time I decided 345 00:28:51,331 --> 00:28:54,566 to seek out the advice of Ray Kemeney. 346 00:28:54,567 --> 00:28:58,870 I had heard Ray on the radio over the years, 347 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:00,956 and opinion was quite divided, 348 00:29:00,957 --> 00:29:02,724 some thought he was the real deal, 349 00:29:02,725 --> 00:29:04,726 others were unconvinced. 350 00:29:04,727 --> 00:29:06,862 Next we have Annie on the line. 351 00:29:06,863 --> 00:29:08,731 Hi, Annie, how are you? 352 00:29:08,732 --> 00:29:11,233 I'm fine, thanks, Ray. Thank you for taking my call. 353 00:29:11,234 --> 00:29:14,570 My pleasure. What can I do for you? 354 00:29:14,571 --> 00:29:18,730 I just wanted a general reading. 355 00:29:18,740 --> 00:29:21,900 General not just medical. 356 00:29:21,100 --> 00:29:22,944 I'm Hungarian by birth. 357 00:29:22,945 --> 00:29:26,365 My parents came out here when I was quite young. 358 00:29:26,366 --> 00:29:30,350 I've got a 15-year-old daughter who lives with her mother in South Australia. 359 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,373 My Christian name is actually Schultz, but I changed it to Ray. 360 00:29:34,374 --> 00:29:38,760 I think it's a more trustworthy name for a psychic. 361 00:29:39,696 --> 00:29:42,614 Australia's wog psychic of choice. 362 00:29:45,552 --> 00:29:47,190 Most of what I do is... 363 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,288 When I'm dealing with the sick or the dying, 364 00:29:50,289 --> 00:29:54,193 which I guess probably fits about a third of my clients, 365 00:29:54,194 --> 00:29:56,280 is to allow them the possibility 366 00:29:56,290 --> 00:29:57,596 that death is not the bitter end, 367 00:29:57,597 --> 00:30:01,734 that it's not the full stop. 368 00:30:01,735 --> 00:30:03,769 Which is a consolation that I'm quite happy to give them 369 00:30:03,770 --> 00:30:09,241 considering the fact that what happens after death is up for grabs anyway. 370 00:30:09,242 --> 00:30:12,600 There's somebody very close to you, 371 00:30:12,610 --> 00:30:15,363 someone you haven't seen for a while, 372 00:30:15,364 --> 00:30:18,667 someone who is going to come back into your life. 373 00:30:18,668 --> 00:30:21,736 Someone who'll be of great comfort to you. 374 00:30:23,490 --> 00:30:25,791 Anyone that fits that bill? 375 00:30:25,792 --> 00:30:27,943 Yeah, I can think of someone. 376 00:30:27,944 --> 00:30:29,478 Look, I won't lie to you, Annie, 377 00:30:29,479 --> 00:30:31,960 I can see obstacles ahead of you 378 00:30:31,970 --> 00:30:33,916 but I think that this person who is coming back to you 379 00:30:33,917 --> 00:30:35,751 is gonna make a great difference 380 00:30:35,752 --> 00:30:38,553 and will be of great solace to you. 381 00:30:39,656 --> 00:30:41,456 Thanks, Ray. 382 00:30:42,191 --> 00:30:44,126 See you, Annie. 383 00:30:59,742 --> 00:31:02,600 Where I come from, when someone dies, 384 00:31:02,610 --> 00:31:03,896 they block out all the mirrors in the house 385 00:31:03,897 --> 00:31:08,166 to stop the dead from finding their way back. 386 00:31:08,167 --> 00:31:11,403 It's things like that, that make a difference. 387 00:31:18,962 --> 00:31:21,960 Hi, Annie. I'm Ray. 388 00:31:32,992 --> 00:31:35,176 You're gonna die, Annie. 389 00:31:36,412 --> 00:31:40,150 It's just the start of something else, all right? 390 00:31:40,850 --> 00:31:42,617 Thank you. 391 00:31:42,618 --> 00:31:44,180 It's all right. 392 00:31:44,754 --> 00:31:46,254 Okay. 393 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,512 I liked Ray immediately. He wasn't what I expected. 394 00:31:53,513 --> 00:31:55,647 I don't know what I really did expect, 395 00:31:55,648 --> 00:31:58,283 but there was nothing kind of spooky 396 00:31:58,284 --> 00:32:00,452 or fake about him. 397 00:32:10,830 --> 00:32:12,881 Okay. Are we ready? 398 00:32:12,882 --> 00:32:14,599 Mmm-hmm. 399 00:32:16,469 --> 00:32:17,936 I want you to close your eyes... 400 00:32:17,937 --> 00:32:20,272 I usually video tape my sessions 401 00:32:20,273 --> 00:32:23,892 so that they can be reviewed later by the clients, 402 00:32:23,893 --> 00:32:28,630 especially when there's elements of trance or hypnotism involved. 403 00:32:28,631 --> 00:32:31,333 I keep one copy for myself, one copy for them. 404 00:32:31,334 --> 00:32:33,553 Better to be safe than sorry. 405 00:32:33,554 --> 00:32:37,255 Okay, so you're standing outside your house. 406 00:32:37,256 --> 00:32:39,458 Tell me what you see. 407 00:32:43,964 --> 00:32:46,470 My house. 408 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,852 It's a white house. I'm walking towards the front door. 409 00:32:50,853 --> 00:32:52,287 Okay. 410 00:32:52,288 --> 00:32:55,123 Now, I want you to go inside the house. 411 00:32:55,124 --> 00:32:57,258 I want you to move slowly through the house, 412 00:32:57,259 --> 00:33:00,110 I want you to describe what you see, 413 00:33:01,798 --> 00:33:05,330 where you are, just give me a guided tour. 414 00:33:16,763 --> 00:33:20,833 Okay, I'm walking down the hallway 415 00:33:20,834 --> 00:33:23,680 towards Alice's room. 416 00:33:28,740 --> 00:33:29,608 What's there? 417 00:33:29,609 --> 00:33:33,678 I can see Alice's shoes outside her room. 418 00:33:36,248 --> 00:33:39,284 And what does that mean for you? June? 419 00:33:42,555 --> 00:33:46,358 She always used to leave her sneakers outside her room. 420 00:33:48,862 --> 00:33:52,197 So, I want you to go inside her room now, 421 00:33:52,198 --> 00:33:55,434 open the door and just move inside. 422 00:33:55,435 --> 00:33:59,955 You feel safe enough to go into Alice's room? 423 00:34:01,824 --> 00:34:03,224 Okay. 424 00:34:03,225 --> 00:34:04,659 Now open the door. 425 00:34:08,498 --> 00:34:10,932 I'm going inside her room. 426 00:34:25,810 --> 00:34:27,916 You can see something, can't you? 427 00:34:28,568 --> 00:34:31,186 Tell me what you see, June. 428 00:34:32,655 --> 00:34:34,289 She's... 429 00:34:36,910 --> 00:34:40,929 Alice is sitting in the wicker chair at the end of her bed. 430 00:34:49,739 --> 00:34:51,723 She looks sad. 431 00:34:57,630 --> 00:34:59,964 I first met Ray when June brought him home for dinner 432 00:34:59,965 --> 00:35:03,819 the night of her first consultation. 433 00:35:03,820 --> 00:35:05,887 And, yeah, I'm completely indifferent to psychics, 434 00:35:05,888 --> 00:35:08,757 I don't really have a position on them at all. 435 00:35:08,758 --> 00:35:11,927 I don't really want them to come round for dinner, mind you, 436 00:35:11,928 --> 00:35:14,462 but, you know, I didn't want to upset June either. 437 00:35:16,980 --> 00:35:19,117 He was a pleasant sort of a bloke, he wasn't ooky-spooky at all. 438 00:35:19,118 --> 00:35:21,802 And I was on my best behavior. 439 00:35:22,638 --> 00:35:25,407 A few days later, maybe a week later, 440 00:35:25,408 --> 00:35:29,344 I suggested to the family that we hold a seance. 441 00:35:29,345 --> 00:35:34,683 June was really keen, but I remember Russell just flat out refused. 442 00:35:34,684 --> 00:35:37,252 I think Mathew finally talked his dad around. 443 00:35:37,253 --> 00:35:41,406 Mathew, how did you feel about having a seance held in your house? 444 00:35:43,309 --> 00:35:48,680 At the time I was actually kind of interested, sort of curious. 445 00:35:48,681 --> 00:35:52,985 I don't think Dad was thrilled about the idea. 446 00:35:52,986 --> 00:35:57,990 But, yeah, I thought it would be interesting. 447 00:35:57,991 --> 00:36:00,559 And I suggested we film it, 448 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,745 and I recorded it with just our video camera, 449 00:36:03,746 --> 00:36:06,164 which is the PC9. 450 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,304 I'm getting a strong presence in the room. 451 00:36:12,705 --> 00:36:14,739 In the house. 452 00:36:17,543 --> 00:36:20,979 I think we all thought that the seance was a failure. 453 00:36:20,980 --> 00:36:24,149 Ray didn't really come up with anything, 454 00:36:24,150 --> 00:36:25,984 like, with any signs or anything, 455 00:36:25,985 --> 00:36:30,321 so, after about an hour or so, we called it quits, 456 00:36:30,322 --> 00:36:32,424 and it wasn't until the next day 457 00:36:32,425 --> 00:36:37,429 that Mathew was reviewing the footage 458 00:36:37,430 --> 00:36:40,865 that there was an image of Alice. 459 00:36:40,866 --> 00:36:43,652 Make your presence known to us. 460 00:37:03,606 --> 00:37:08,777 The new footage was completely different to the hallway footage. 461 00:37:08,778 --> 00:37:14,316 For one, it was significantly more detailed, so it was less ambiguous. 462 00:37:14,317 --> 00:37:17,169 And it was impossible to dismiss it 463 00:37:17,170 --> 00:37:23,240 as a coincidence of shadow play and digital noise. 464 00:37:25,194 --> 00:37:31,199 There was something inexplicable in our house, that was beyond doubt. 465 00:37:34,671 --> 00:37:39,891 I was concerned. This was pretty unfamiliar territory for me. 466 00:37:41,410 --> 00:37:44,111 I've never seen a ghost before. 467 00:38:01,514 --> 00:38:04,132 Ray got Mathew to help him set up 468 00:38:04,133 --> 00:38:06,885 three permanent cameras inside the house 469 00:38:06,886 --> 00:38:11,406 recording in time-lapse configurations 24 hours a day. 470 00:38:13,250 --> 00:38:19,331 There'd been a lot of speculation about Ray and what he was doing there. 471 00:38:19,332 --> 00:38:21,116 I mean, when people don't know 472 00:38:21,117 --> 00:38:25,837 that, of course, leads to a lot of talk and a lot of speculation. 473 00:38:25,838 --> 00:38:28,807 I had heard rumors throughout July of video images 474 00:38:28,808 --> 00:38:32,844 purporting to be of an apparition in the house. 475 00:38:32,845 --> 00:38:37,282 But I must say I was skeptical as to their legitimacy. 476 00:38:37,283 --> 00:38:39,984 And your view on Ray? 477 00:38:39,985 --> 00:38:42,553 Also very skeptical. 478 00:38:42,554 --> 00:38:44,806 I think they had me as some kind of Rasputin figure 479 00:38:44,807 --> 00:38:47,441 mesmerizing the Palmers, stealing their money, 480 00:38:47,442 --> 00:38:49,777 doctoring the photos of Alice. 481 00:38:52,865 --> 00:38:56,701 Mathew, in particular, seemed to be really struggling. 482 00:39:02,408 --> 00:39:05,877 I thought I might be able to help this boy by being there, you know. 483 00:39:06,929 --> 00:39:08,246 Good one. Beautiful. 484 00:39:08,247 --> 00:39:09,847 Well done. 485 00:39:09,848 --> 00:39:12,767 That said, my chief motivation was professional. 486 00:39:12,768 --> 00:39:14,402 Something was happening inside that house 487 00:39:14,403 --> 00:39:17,500 and I wanted to find out what it was. 488 00:40:12,111 --> 00:40:15,113 What was your reaction to these images? 489 00:40:16,816 --> 00:40:21,360 We were completely gobsmacked by them. 490 00:40:21,370 --> 00:40:23,889 But before we had time to, you know, take in what that meant 491 00:40:23,890 --> 00:40:25,740 the Withers' video came out. 492 00:40:25,741 --> 00:40:27,174 Go on. 493 00:40:27,410 --> 00:40:28,411 Is it good? 494 00:40:28,412 --> 00:40:29,494 Yeah, it's great. 495 00:40:29,495 --> 00:40:31,112 Can I have a look? 496 00:40:31,113 --> 00:40:33,480 Yeah, be careful. 497 00:40:33,490 --> 00:40:36,951 Cathy and Doug Withers were at the dam on April the 3rd, 498 00:40:36,952 --> 00:40:39,938 the same day that the Bob Smeet photo was taken. 499 00:40:39,939 --> 00:40:41,123 Be careful. 500 00:40:41,124 --> 00:40:43,558 What do you think I'm going to do? 501 00:40:43,559 --> 00:40:46,911 Give it back. Be careful. 502 00:40:46,912 --> 00:40:49,314 It's safe in my hands, babe. 503 00:40:52,150 --> 00:40:55,620 It was a couple of months later, the end of July, 504 00:40:55,621 --> 00:41:02,511 when we were looking at our footage that we'd shot down at the dam 505 00:41:02,512 --> 00:41:05,296 and came across... 506 00:41:05,297 --> 00:41:11,200 A figure in the background, which we identified as Bob Smeet, 507 00:41:11,300 --> 00:41:13,588 which interested us 'cause there's... 508 00:41:13,589 --> 00:41:15,340 Yeah, clearly, we didn't... We sort of went, 509 00:41:15,341 --> 00:41:17,658 "Oh! It was the same day he was there 510 00:41:17,659 --> 00:41:21,290 "when he captured the image that people have been talking about." 511 00:41:21,300 --> 00:41:24,265 So, then we went through all our footage 512 00:41:24,266 --> 00:41:27,318 to see if we perhaps might have captured that figure as well. 513 00:41:27,319 --> 00:41:29,870 Maybe the camera had seen what Bob saw. 514 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:31,656 Yeah. Yeah. 515 00:41:31,657 --> 00:41:35,260 And we did find a figure in the background 516 00:41:35,270 --> 00:41:39,130 like the image that had been described in his picture. 517 00:41:39,140 --> 00:41:40,882 And then we looked more closely 518 00:41:40,883 --> 00:41:43,551 and Doug zoomed in on it. 519 00:41:43,552 --> 00:41:46,888 Yeah, I got right in on the computer. 520 00:41:46,889 --> 00:41:51,900 And from what, you know, could have looked like a female figure 521 00:41:51,100 --> 00:41:53,862 from a long way away, 522 00:41:53,863 --> 00:41:55,680 up close and tight, 523 00:41:55,681 --> 00:42:00,651 you could see that it definitely was neither female nor Alice. 524 00:42:00,652 --> 00:42:02,553 It was Mathew. 525 00:42:04,806 --> 00:42:07,342 Do you guys believe in ghosts? No. 526 00:42:07,343 --> 00:42:09,644 No. No. No. 527 00:42:11,831 --> 00:42:15,417 Well, this is where I was when the Bob Smeet photo was taken. 528 00:42:15,418 --> 00:42:20,572 I was wearing Alice's jacket, and I looked up and I saw a man on the hill, 529 00:42:20,573 --> 00:42:22,874 who turned out to be Bob Smeet. 530 00:42:22,875 --> 00:42:26,777 And I didn't wanna be in a photo. 531 00:42:28,130 --> 00:42:31,366 So, I walked off through the bush. 532 00:42:31,367 --> 00:42:35,803 What I didn't see was there was also a couple over there filming, 533 00:42:35,804 --> 00:42:37,839 who turned out to be the Withers. 534 00:42:41,827 --> 00:42:44,896 When the Withers' thing came out, Dad came to me 535 00:42:44,897 --> 00:42:48,332 and asked me if I had been involved in anything else. 536 00:42:48,333 --> 00:42:52,319 And I didn't wanna lie to him, so I told him. 537 00:43:00,429 --> 00:43:02,764 And I explained to Dad that I was responsible 538 00:43:02,765 --> 00:43:04,932 for the image of Alice in the hallway 539 00:43:04,933 --> 00:43:10,438 and the bedroom, and that I created the April 28th backyard photo 540 00:43:10,439 --> 00:43:12,890 and the seance image. 541 00:43:12,891 --> 00:43:14,892 I just told him what I'd done. 542 00:43:14,893 --> 00:43:16,344 Okay, so... 543 00:43:16,345 --> 00:43:20,164 I got two photos, a photo of Alice and the backyard 544 00:43:20,165 --> 00:43:23,251 and composited the images. 545 00:43:23,252 --> 00:43:25,453 That's a photo that I took of Alice. 546 00:43:25,454 --> 00:43:27,805 Mum kept talking about... 547 00:43:27,806 --> 00:43:29,924 She was always talking about getting Alice exhumed, 548 00:43:29,925 --> 00:43:32,710 and she was really keen on this idea 549 00:43:32,711 --> 00:43:34,679 that Dad had misidentified her body. 550 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,949 And so I knew that without more evidence it wasn't going to happen, 551 00:43:37,950 --> 00:43:41,119 so I made the photograph. 552 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,842 I just used an old video of Alice 553 00:43:49,194 --> 00:43:53,470 and I played that on the TV. 554 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:54,982 I had the TV up on the book case 555 00:43:54,983 --> 00:43:57,786 and it was as simple as rotating the mirror 556 00:43:57,787 --> 00:44:01,473 so that the reflection of the TV came up in it. 557 00:44:01,474 --> 00:44:04,750 And obviously the mirror's quite small, 558 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:05,910 so it cropped out the edges of the television 559 00:44:05,911 --> 00:44:08,513 and then, yeah, I just filmed that. 560 00:44:08,514 --> 00:44:10,631 Same with the kitchen and the bedroom. 561 00:44:10,632 --> 00:44:15,503 What you see basically is Alice on the television in the mirror. 562 00:44:24,846 --> 00:44:29,283 Like, it wasn't about trying to trick people. 563 00:44:29,284 --> 00:44:32,604 I guess it was like something was better than nothing. 564 00:44:32,605 --> 00:44:37,800 Do you think that what you did ultimately made it worse for June? 565 00:44:43,348 --> 00:44:45,282 I think that... 566 00:44:46,418 --> 00:44:50,755 Yeah. Yeah, I probably did make it harder for her. 567 00:44:50,756 --> 00:44:53,891 But, I mean, that wasn't my intention. 568 00:44:56,478 --> 00:45:01,833 I'm not quite so sure about his reasons. 569 00:45:02,401 --> 00:45:04,969 I don't know that I 570 00:45:06,221 --> 00:45:08,500 totally... 571 00:45:11,577 --> 00:45:14,980 I don't want to say I don't totally believe what he said, 572 00:45:14,981 --> 00:45:19,567 but I'm just not convinced 573 00:45:19,568 --> 00:45:22,469 that he really knows why he did it. 574 00:45:28,827 --> 00:45:31,763 When it all came out, people wanted to do stories and books 575 00:45:31,764 --> 00:45:36,170 and women's magazines, the whole lot just went pear-shaped. 576 00:45:37,820 --> 00:45:39,988 Look, we just didn't know how to handle it. 577 00:45:39,989 --> 00:45:44,408 I mean, you know, we had to protect Matty, we had to protect ourselves, 578 00:45:44,409 --> 00:45:47,295 we had to protect Ali's memory. 579 00:45:47,296 --> 00:45:50,131 And we just didn't have any experience 580 00:45:50,132 --> 00:45:52,250 of dealing with all this interest 581 00:45:52,251 --> 00:45:54,435 in something that was incredibly personal 582 00:45:54,436 --> 00:45:58,272 that people wanted to make incredibly public. 583 00:45:58,273 --> 00:46:01,993 I mean, the Palmers weren't coping well at all at that point. 584 00:46:01,994 --> 00:46:05,729 And things were very bad, they were doing it tough. 585 00:46:07,566 --> 00:46:11,235 This was like the end of hope for all of us, 586 00:46:11,236 --> 00:46:13,520 but especially for June. 587 00:46:14,756 --> 00:46:18,580 She just really wasn't ready to let Ali go. 588 00:46:21,379 --> 00:46:26,451 She just needed to hang on to her a little bit longer. 589 00:46:26,452 --> 00:46:31,638 And I don't think she would admit it, but she was devastated. 590 00:46:42,618 --> 00:46:44,285 She's an interesting girl. 591 00:46:44,286 --> 00:46:48,306 She seemed to not get on with June so well. 592 00:46:48,307 --> 00:46:50,191 I thought they actually were quite alike. 593 00:46:50,192 --> 00:46:53,310 It was interesting that the two of them might not get on so well. 594 00:46:56,198 --> 00:46:58,866 They always seemed very much alike 595 00:46:58,867 --> 00:47:04,755 and you could see that Alice took a lot after June. 596 00:47:04,756 --> 00:47:09,394 But, also, other things had become clear as well after Alice's death. 597 00:47:09,395 --> 00:47:12,479 That perhaps a bit of the sense of the private 598 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:16,170 that they both shared. 599 00:47:16,180 --> 00:47:17,185 Thanks for that. 600 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,540 June was... Well, still is... 601 00:47:22,541 --> 00:47:24,642 She keeps to herself a lot, 602 00:47:24,643 --> 00:47:29,129 and it became clear that that was happening with Alice, too. 603 00:47:30,365 --> 00:47:32,000 They had the sense of privacy. 604 00:47:32,100 --> 00:47:34,234 The sense that there is their own private life 605 00:47:34,235 --> 00:47:39,907 that they will either choose to share or to not share, I guess. 606 00:47:45,247 --> 00:47:47,310 It's wonderful when your children come 607 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:49,751 and that new expression that you have. 608 00:47:49,752 --> 00:47:53,705 But as a mother, you've still always got doubts 609 00:47:53,706 --> 00:47:58,592 that you're not doing enough or you're not doing the right thing. 610 00:48:00,929 --> 00:48:05,432 I partly blame myself, that's come from me. 611 00:48:05,433 --> 00:48:07,952 Maybe it came from my mother. 612 00:48:09,838 --> 00:48:12,189 I've never been able to... 613 00:48:14,593 --> 00:48:19,290 I've never been able to give myself over wholly to... 614 00:48:19,531 --> 00:48:21,248 To June. 615 00:48:22,751 --> 00:48:26,720 I feel June is a little like that, too, 616 00:48:26,721 --> 00:48:30,440 that she couldn't give herself wholly to Alice. 617 00:48:38,250 --> 00:48:42,453 I hope that Alice did know how much I loved her. 618 00:48:42,454 --> 00:48:46,423 I guess I held something back a little as she grew older. 619 00:48:48,460 --> 00:48:52,663 That would be the saddest thing, to think she might not know. 620 00:49:01,674 --> 00:49:05,243 Ray suggested that Mathew accompany him 621 00:49:05,244 --> 00:49:09,313 on one of his country Victorian tours, 622 00:49:09,314 --> 00:49:11,565 where he was doing consultations, 623 00:49:11,566 --> 00:49:14,834 and Mathew jumped at the chance. 624 00:49:16,104 --> 00:49:18,305 Breakfast. Your shout, I think. 625 00:49:18,306 --> 00:49:20,574 No, I think it's your shout. 626 00:49:36,410 --> 00:49:42,313 I think I realized when I was away how much I missed Alice 627 00:49:42,314 --> 00:49:46,917 and that I was never going to be able to speak to her again. 628 00:49:47,869 --> 00:49:49,570 I guess that's something that 629 00:49:49,571 --> 00:49:52,473 all of Ray's clients are coming to terms with. 630 00:49:52,474 --> 00:49:54,393 You know, they want to talk to someone 631 00:49:54,394 --> 00:49:56,994 or make contact with someone they've lost, 632 00:49:56,995 --> 00:50:01,150 and so did I. 633 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:05,786 So, I was sort of one of Ray's clients in a way as well. 634 00:50:11,250 --> 00:50:12,243 No. Can I chuck it at you? 635 00:50:12,244 --> 00:50:14,211 No. Let's see what happens. 636 00:50:14,212 --> 00:50:15,579 Well, what do you think is gonna happen? 637 00:50:15,580 --> 00:50:17,315 It's gonna hit me and then I'm gonna get angry. 638 00:50:17,316 --> 00:50:19,933 That's what's gonna happen. No! 639 00:50:20,419 --> 00:50:22,420 Watch yourself. 640 00:50:22,421 --> 00:50:25,239 What are you doing in my room? 641 00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:26,873 I don't know. 642 00:50:41,940 --> 00:50:43,607 Get out! 643 00:50:51,490 --> 00:50:53,167 When me and Ray went on the tour, 644 00:50:53,168 --> 00:50:55,302 we left the two rented cameras 645 00:50:55,303 --> 00:50:57,939 where they were, in the hallway. 646 00:50:57,940 --> 00:51:02,526 I was sure there was still something in the house. 647 00:51:02,527 --> 00:51:04,695 And obviously, 'cause we were away for the three days, 648 00:51:04,696 --> 00:51:08,320 you know, we couldn't change the tapes or anything. 649 00:51:08,330 --> 00:51:12,936 So, we knew we were probably gonna get about, like, a day and a half of footage. 650 00:51:12,937 --> 00:51:15,305 But we left them running 651 00:51:16,175 --> 00:51:19,493 and got back on August 22nd, 652 00:51:19,494 --> 00:51:22,663 at which point we checked the tapes. 653 00:51:47,255 --> 00:51:49,557 Only Russell and I were in the house 654 00:51:49,558 --> 00:51:51,792 when these images were recorded, 655 00:51:51,793 --> 00:51:55,429 Mathew couldn't have had anything to do with them. 656 00:51:56,664 --> 00:52:00,684 They seemed to prove that there was a ghost in our house. 657 00:52:01,720 --> 00:52:03,453 Alice's ghost. 658 00:52:11,496 --> 00:52:14,114 Do you believe in ghosts? 659 00:52:14,900 --> 00:52:16,833 Didn't used to, 660 00:52:19,537 --> 00:52:22,839 but it's a hard thing to prove or disprove. 661 00:52:27,412 --> 00:52:29,146 I think... 662 00:52:30,349 --> 00:52:33,684 Yeah, sometimes I think maybe they do exist. 663 00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,371 There are ghosts everywhere. 664 00:52:37,372 --> 00:52:39,506 It's a scary world. 665 00:52:40,492 --> 00:52:42,142 I don't know why it's important. 666 00:52:42,143 --> 00:52:45,212 It's like how it helps people, like, dealing with her loss, 667 00:52:45,213 --> 00:52:48,782 like making up stories about ghosts or whatever. 668 00:52:53,371 --> 00:52:56,400 It threw a question mark over everything. 669 00:52:56,410 --> 00:53:00,100 I went back and reviewed all the footage that had come before, 670 00:53:00,110 --> 00:53:04,415 all the material taken inside the house following Alice's death. 671 00:53:09,988 --> 00:53:14,792 It was while I was looking at Mathew's June 13th hallway material again, 672 00:53:14,793 --> 00:53:18,128 that I noticed something in the image. 673 00:53:18,897 --> 00:53:20,298 There was a second figure, 674 00:53:20,299 --> 00:53:23,201 not Mathew in the hallway but someone else, 675 00:53:23,202 --> 00:53:26,237 squatting in the dark in Alice's room. 676 00:53:26,839 --> 00:53:29,230 At first I thought it was Alice. 677 00:53:30,608 --> 00:53:35,412 Then I realized it was our neighbor, Brett Toohey. 678 00:53:43,305 --> 00:53:47,691 What was this man doing in my house, in my daughter's room 679 00:53:47,692 --> 00:53:50,627 more than six months after her death? 680 00:53:57,100 --> 00:54:01,988 When I found Alice's safe, I realized exactly why he'd been there. 681 00:54:05,744 --> 00:54:08,279 He was looking for the tape. 682 00:54:10,849 --> 00:54:12,582 That's it. 683 00:54:39,645 --> 00:54:42,146 But it was such a... It wasn't a very nice day. 684 00:54:42,147 --> 00:54:44,181 Yes. 685 00:54:44,182 --> 00:54:46,300 You did a smoke ring. Yes. 686 00:54:46,301 --> 00:54:47,885 You two getting nice and cozy without me. 687 00:54:49,688 --> 00:54:53,900 Alice began babysitting for the Tooheys in 2002, 688 00:54:53,910 --> 00:54:56,427 and she continued for the next two and a half years. 689 00:54:56,428 --> 00:55:00,970 The Tooheys' two boys were five and nine years old. 690 00:55:02,167 --> 00:55:07,154 I literally just couldn't believe my eyes. 691 00:55:11,626 --> 00:55:14,261 It just made me feel so sad. 692 00:55:20,568 --> 00:55:21,969 As far as I'm concerned, 693 00:55:21,970 --> 00:55:24,338 the Tooheys were complicit in Ali's death. 694 00:55:24,339 --> 00:55:27,707 I believe that if it hadn't been for them, she would have reached out to us. 695 00:55:27,708 --> 00:55:30,260 She wouldn't have felt guilty. 696 00:55:30,261 --> 00:55:34,365 She wouldn't have felt the burden of that secret. 697 00:55:34,366 --> 00:55:37,200 She wouldn't have been isolated. 698 00:55:40,305 --> 00:55:43,440 How do you feel towards Brett now? 699 00:55:43,441 --> 00:55:47,745 If he was around the corner, I'd probably throttle him. 700 00:55:47,746 --> 00:55:51,582 He seemed like a nice guy. You know, he was nice. 701 00:55:51,583 --> 00:55:57,822 We'd speak and he was never like, you know, nasty or anything. 702 00:55:57,823 --> 00:56:01,750 He had a pool at his place and usually... 703 00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:02,425 We used to swim there sometimes. 704 00:56:02,426 --> 00:56:04,950 Yeah. During the summer. 705 00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:06,797 So, usually we just go to his place and have a swim there. 706 00:56:07,732 --> 00:56:09,830 I was really bewildered 707 00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:10,600 about, you know, what happened. 708 00:56:10,601 --> 00:56:11,651 Yeah. 709 00:56:11,652 --> 00:56:14,380 It took a lot just to realize... 710 00:56:14,390 --> 00:56:17,291 'Cause, you know, I had no idea that Alice would... 711 00:56:17,292 --> 00:56:18,725 No, be with somebody, I know. 712 00:56:18,726 --> 00:56:20,694 Yeah, it was like a complete surprise. 713 00:56:20,695 --> 00:56:24,648 Like, we just didn't think, you know, she'd do something like that. 714 00:56:24,649 --> 00:56:26,149 Yeah. 715 00:56:28,853 --> 00:56:31,772 Why do you think Alice had the tape? 716 00:56:33,591 --> 00:56:35,993 Because she didn't want them to have it. 717 00:56:35,994 --> 00:56:37,261 Why is that? 718 00:56:37,262 --> 00:56:39,596 She didn't trust them anymore, I think. 719 00:56:41,349 --> 00:56:45,135 They must've been really desperate to get that tape. 720 00:56:45,136 --> 00:56:49,550 From the moment that they'd heard of Alice's death, 721 00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:53,593 they would've been living in this constant fear of being found out. 722 00:56:56,598 --> 00:57:00,817 I'm glad he couldn't find it. I'm glad he knows it's not over. 723 00:57:04,656 --> 00:57:06,220 I had a lot of personal dealings 724 00:57:06,230 --> 00:57:07,424 with the Palmers during this time 725 00:57:07,425 --> 00:57:09,226 as part of the investigating team 726 00:57:09,227 --> 00:57:13,546 trying to locate Brett and Marissa Toohey and family. 727 00:57:13,547 --> 00:57:18,351 And initially we were optimistic that they would be found 728 00:57:18,352 --> 00:57:20,837 and charges laid. 729 00:57:20,838 --> 00:57:23,841 But, unfortunately, the leads that we were working with 730 00:57:23,842 --> 00:57:28,462 soon dried up, and so the investigation stalled. 731 00:57:28,463 --> 00:57:32,132 So, the police's advice to us was that even if the Tooheys were caught, 732 00:57:32,133 --> 00:57:33,934 they would get off with a suspended sentence 733 00:57:33,935 --> 00:57:36,804 by claiming that the sex was consensual, 734 00:57:36,805 --> 00:57:41,391 which was, they claimed, you know, supported by the video evidence. 735 00:57:41,392 --> 00:57:45,162 Jason, did you know about Alice's involvement with Brett? 736 00:57:45,430 --> 00:57:48,198 No. No one did. 737 00:57:50,350 --> 00:57:52,436 Obviously I didn't. 738 00:57:52,437 --> 00:57:56,857 We wouldn't be going out if I did. It was... No. 739 00:57:56,858 --> 00:58:00,994 I thought we were... I thought we were pretty good. 740 00:58:11,923 --> 00:58:15,358 It just left so many unanswered questions. 741 00:58:15,977 --> 00:58:18,278 Why was she involved with him? 742 00:58:18,279 --> 00:58:21,148 When did the relationship begin? 743 00:58:21,149 --> 00:58:24,117 Was she in love with either of them? 744 00:58:25,754 --> 00:58:27,954 I just don't know. 745 00:58:30,992 --> 00:58:35,562 The Tooheys sold their house and moved, six months after Alice died. 746 00:58:45,106 --> 00:58:47,574 Alice kept secrets. 747 00:58:47,575 --> 00:58:53,397 She kept the fact she kept secrets a secret. 748 00:58:53,398 --> 00:58:56,266 Which does change the way that you see somebody, I suppose, 749 00:58:56,267 --> 00:59:01,355 when you realize that they did hide things from you a bit. 750 00:59:01,356 --> 00:59:06,900 I think I knew one Alice and maybe her mum knew another, 751 00:59:06,100 --> 00:59:10,960 and there was another one again that none of us knew maybe. 752 00:59:24,379 --> 00:59:27,764 I found Ray's business card taped to Alice's diary 753 00:59:27,765 --> 00:59:31,768 on the page marked 12th of July, 2005. 754 00:59:36,607 --> 00:59:38,809 Why have you come to see me, Alice? 755 00:59:38,810 --> 00:59:40,827 Can you interpret dreams? 756 00:59:40,828 --> 00:59:44,470 Mmm-hmm. Sometimes. 757 00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,534 How do you feel when you wake up from these dreams? 758 00:59:51,272 --> 00:59:52,973 They scare me a bit. 759 00:59:52,974 --> 00:59:56,927 Alice came to see me about five months before she died. 760 00:59:56,928 --> 00:59:58,929 I think she'd heard me on the radio a few times 761 00:59:58,930 --> 01:00:01,565 and rang and made an appointment. 762 01:00:01,566 --> 01:00:04,170 Take a deep breath. Close your eyes. 763 01:00:04,180 --> 01:00:06,519 I want you to imagine you're standing outside your house. 764 01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:09,489 When you can see that, you tell me. 765 01:00:17,310 --> 01:00:18,980 Okay? 766 01:00:18,990 --> 01:00:20,133 Yeah. 767 01:00:20,134 --> 01:00:24,871 All right. Now, I want you to go inside the front door. 768 01:00:24,872 --> 01:00:28,408 Go into the house. Tell me what you see, where you are. 769 01:00:28,409 --> 01:00:31,278 Ray, why didn't you tell June that you'd actually met Alice before? 770 01:00:31,279 --> 01:00:33,947 Okay, I'm in the entrance... 771 01:00:33,948 --> 01:00:36,249 Look, I don't think it was a case of hiding something from them. 772 01:00:36,250 --> 01:00:41,540 It was more that I was honoring Alice's request for confidentiality. 773 01:00:41,550 --> 01:00:44,758 But it was damned if you do, damned if you don't, you know. 774 01:00:44,759 --> 01:00:48,662 The living room's just directly ahead. 775 01:00:48,663 --> 01:00:51,164 Then you go to your right 776 01:00:51,165 --> 01:00:56,704 and my room's in the back part of the house as you go towards the kitchen. 777 01:00:56,705 --> 01:01:00,207 Do you see anything unusual? Anything different? 778 01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:04,713 No. 779 01:01:04,714 --> 01:01:08,398 No, we didn't feel like we could trust Ray anymore. 780 01:01:08,399 --> 01:01:11,968 For whatever reasons he had of keeping that information to himself, 781 01:01:11,969 --> 01:01:15,104 it still felt like a betrayal. 782 01:01:20,378 --> 01:01:22,295 I wanted to help June and the family 783 01:01:22,296 --> 01:01:25,249 and I think they wanted me to help them. 784 01:01:25,250 --> 01:01:29,180 I wouldn't have been able to do it if they'd known. 785 01:01:29,470 --> 01:01:31,388 There was a fair bit of resentment. 786 01:01:31,389 --> 01:01:33,957 Mathew wouldn't even speak to me. 787 01:01:33,958 --> 01:01:35,926 But what I think really hurt them more than anything 788 01:01:35,927 --> 01:01:38,595 was what they saw as my failure 789 01:01:38,596 --> 01:01:42,366 to see Alice's eminent passing. 790 01:01:42,367 --> 01:01:45,318 Looking back, like, it's kind of strange 791 01:01:45,319 --> 01:01:50,756 that someone would, you know, be as close to us as he was... 792 01:01:52,644 --> 01:01:56,479 I think, maybe, he needed us as much as we needed him. 793 01:02:08,943 --> 01:02:12,646 Alice came to see me because she was upset. 794 01:02:12,647 --> 01:02:15,715 She was a very troubled person. 795 01:02:17,652 --> 01:02:19,603 "I had a dream last night. 796 01:02:19,604 --> 01:02:24,491 "I was cold and wet. I felt heavy, like I'd been drugged, 797 01:02:24,492 --> 01:02:29,450 "and when I woke up, these sensations didn't go. 798 01:02:29,460 --> 01:02:31,898 "I was feeling sick and confused 799 01:02:31,899 --> 01:02:36,236 "and I was starting to get scared. 800 01:02:36,237 --> 01:02:39,139 "I needed to see Mum to talk to her. 801 01:02:39,874 --> 01:02:41,608 "I stumbled to her room 802 01:02:41,609 --> 01:02:44,828 "and as I stood there at the bed, watching them, 803 01:02:44,829 --> 01:02:49,316 "I was overcome by this intense sadness. 804 01:02:49,317 --> 01:02:51,785 "Then the sadness turned to fear. 805 01:02:51,786 --> 01:02:54,388 "I just stood there paralyzed with fear 806 01:02:54,389 --> 01:02:58,725 "and I realized there was nothing that they could do for me anymore. 807 01:02:58,726 --> 01:03:01,961 "I've never felt so utterly alone. 808 01:03:01,962 --> 01:03:05,198 "Everything felt wrong. My body, 809 01:03:07,340 --> 01:03:08,968 "the way things looked. 810 01:03:08,969 --> 01:03:12,939 "Then I realized that there was something wrong with me. 811 01:03:14,709 --> 01:03:18,728 "I started to cry, standing there at the foot of the bed." 812 01:03:49,943 --> 01:03:53,313 Lake Mungo is in southwestern New South Wales, 813 01:03:53,314 --> 01:03:57,518 and that was the location of the school camp that Alice went on 814 01:03:57,519 --> 01:04:01,354 from August the 2nd to the 5th in 2005. 815 01:04:04,508 --> 01:04:07,544 When she came home, she said she'd had a good time. 816 01:04:07,545 --> 01:04:09,346 I do particularly remember it 817 01:04:09,347 --> 01:04:12,849 because she came home without her mobile phone, 818 01:04:12,850 --> 01:04:15,118 which we'd bought her a month previously, 819 01:04:15,119 --> 01:04:18,588 and her favorite bracelet and watch. 820 01:04:20,891 --> 01:04:26,396 Yes, other than that, you know, she didn't really talk about it too much. 821 01:04:27,832 --> 01:04:29,766 Wait, guys! 822 01:04:35,306 --> 01:04:38,908 Well, Kim didn't show me till about a year after she got back from camp 823 01:04:38,909 --> 01:04:41,494 the stuff that she'd taken on her mobile phone. 824 01:04:41,495 --> 01:04:43,913 So, why'd you decide to tell June? 825 01:04:44,748 --> 01:04:47,950 Well, if we didn't tell June, 826 01:04:47,951 --> 01:04:49,886 then it would be like we were hiding something. 827 01:04:49,887 --> 01:04:53,522 So, I don't know why... 828 01:04:54,825 --> 01:04:58,461 I don't know why, but why not? 829 01:04:58,462 --> 01:05:00,680 Smile for me! 830 01:05:00,681 --> 01:05:01,632 Smile. 831 01:05:01,633 --> 01:05:04,617 They're a little bit tipsy, that's all. 832 01:05:04,618 --> 01:05:07,370 Jason told us about the phone footage 833 01:05:07,380 --> 01:05:09,823 that the girls had taken at Lake Mungo. 834 01:05:17,765 --> 01:05:20,783 The other girls were looking so happy 835 01:05:20,784 --> 01:05:24,237 and she looked quite forlorn. 836 01:05:24,238 --> 01:05:29,292 I was worried. I became convinced that something had happened to her. 837 01:05:35,660 --> 01:05:37,367 So, just get a little bit. Just some of it. 838 01:05:37,368 --> 01:05:40,753 Kate's phone footage was taken later that night 839 01:05:40,754 --> 01:05:43,489 once the girls had spread out over the lunettes. 840 01:05:43,490 --> 01:05:44,991 anywhere. 841 01:05:44,992 --> 01:05:46,860 I think that we need to get a photo. 842 01:05:46,861 --> 01:05:51,948 Like Africa. Like the desert. 843 01:05:51,949 --> 01:05:55,368 There was an image of Alice, very hard to decipher, 844 01:05:55,369 --> 01:05:58,938 in the bottom of the frame kneeling under a tree. 845 01:06:00,808 --> 01:06:02,809 It was only after viewing the clip several times 846 01:06:02,810 --> 01:06:06,112 that we realized what she was doing. 847 01:06:06,113 --> 01:06:08,548 She was burying something. 848 01:06:11,485 --> 01:06:15,288 I mean, did you know what had happened that night with Alice? 849 01:06:15,289 --> 01:06:16,723 No. 850 01:06:18,159 --> 01:06:21,561 I knew she'd lost her phone. 851 01:06:21,562 --> 01:06:25,866 I knew she was upset because that was pretty obvious. 852 01:06:25,867 --> 01:06:28,000 But I didn't know why she was upset. 853 01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:31,454 She didn't say that she'd seen anything, 854 01:06:31,455 --> 01:06:33,323 she didn't really say anything to me. 855 01:06:33,324 --> 01:06:38,261 I didn't really, perhaps, take it that seriously at the time. 856 01:06:38,262 --> 01:06:40,970 You know, it was like context. 857 01:06:40,980 --> 01:06:42,332 You know, we were just having a good time 858 01:06:42,333 --> 01:06:45,670 and I just thought she'd gotten a bit upset. 859 01:06:56,180 --> 01:06:58,581 It started simply enough. 860 01:06:59,100 --> 01:07:01,618 Alice left the group 861 01:07:01,619 --> 01:07:05,571 and started walking off by herself. 862 01:07:07,208 --> 01:07:10,609 But it was... Obviously, something was distressing her. 863 01:07:12,179 --> 01:07:15,581 And we wanted to try and find out what it was. 864 01:07:31,966 --> 01:07:36,200 We understood from the phone video that she'd buried something. 865 01:07:36,300 --> 01:07:38,254 We had an idea where the tree was 866 01:07:38,255 --> 01:07:42,341 because of what we could see from the video. 867 01:07:44,128 --> 01:07:46,262 We didn't really want to go down during the day time 868 01:07:46,263 --> 01:07:49,982 because, you know, we didn't want to be digging, 869 01:07:49,983 --> 01:07:52,635 you know, where tourists were. 870 01:07:54,554 --> 01:07:57,107 So, we decided to go at night. 871 01:08:14,107 --> 01:08:18,411 June and I started digging and after a bit, 872 01:08:19,914 --> 01:08:23,783 June said she'd found something and she pulled out a plastic bag. 873 01:08:23,784 --> 01:08:29,622 And inside the plastic bag there was Ali's favorite necklace, 874 01:08:29,623 --> 01:08:32,475 her ring, her watch, her mobile phone. 875 01:08:33,511 --> 01:08:36,880 Her most precious things 876 01:08:36,881 --> 01:08:39,850 buried out here on a school camp, 877 01:08:39,851 --> 01:08:42,919 and we didn't know why she did that. 878 01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:45,288 I mean, we knew from the video that she'd buried something, 879 01:08:45,289 --> 01:08:48,140 but we didn't know what it was. 880 01:08:50,994 --> 01:08:53,290 It's low on battery. 881 01:09:11,748 --> 01:09:14,116 Are you scared of dying? 882 01:09:15,336 --> 01:09:17,754 Yeah, of course I'm scared of dying. 883 01:09:17,755 --> 01:09:19,989 Isn't everyone scared of dying? 884 01:09:25,445 --> 01:09:30,830 Would you like to tell me a little bit about what happens in these dreams? 885 01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:36,773 I feel like something bad is gonna happen to me. 886 01:09:36,774 --> 01:09:40,209 I feel like something bad has happened. 887 01:09:40,210 --> 01:09:43,645 It hasn't reached me yet, but it's on its way. 888 01:09:46,350 --> 01:09:48,650 And it's getting closer. 889 01:09:49,854 --> 01:09:51,888 And I don't feel ready. 890 01:09:51,889 --> 01:09:55,524 I feel like I can't do anything. 891 01:10:08,706 --> 01:10:10,573 At some point, 892 01:10:10,574 --> 01:10:15,879 this figure came towards her from out of the darkness. 893 01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:19,115 I recognized the face as soon as I saw it on the phone video. 894 01:10:19,116 --> 01:10:24,670 It was the same face of the body that I had identified at the dam. 895 01:10:25,589 --> 01:10:28,824 It was Ali's body and Ali's face. 896 01:10:36,283 --> 01:10:41,788 There is absolutely no rational explanation 897 01:10:41,789 --> 01:10:46,693 for what she saw on that phone. 898 01:11:03,794 --> 01:11:06,128 Stay far away from me. 899 01:11:24,448 --> 01:11:26,332 Oh, my God, they're coming. 900 01:11:26,333 --> 01:11:28,840 Stay away! 901 01:11:44,510 --> 01:11:50,290 I am convinced that Alice knew she was going to die. 902 01:11:50,291 --> 01:11:51,507 I'm convinced of that. 903 01:11:51,508 --> 01:11:54,810 Bundle up, bundle up, bundle up. 904 01:11:54,811 --> 01:11:59,416 I think the figure at Lake Mungo was an omen for her. 905 01:11:59,417 --> 01:12:04,320 The burial of her possessions was symbolic, 906 01:12:04,321 --> 01:12:06,322 it was a ritual. 907 01:12:09,693 --> 01:12:13,563 No, I was never convinced that Ali believed she was gonna die. 908 01:12:13,564 --> 01:12:17,434 You know, she had morbid thoughts, sure. I mean, who doesn't? 909 01:12:17,435 --> 01:12:22,405 And she had nightmares that upset her, and enough to consult Ray. 910 01:12:26,210 --> 01:12:28,940 I don't know that anybody's really convinced 911 01:12:28,950 --> 01:12:30,563 that they're gonna die. 912 01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:35,334 And what about the image at Lake Mungo? 913 01:12:35,335 --> 01:12:38,822 How do you think Alice would have explained that? 914 01:12:38,823 --> 01:12:41,390 How could she have explained it? 915 01:12:47,130 --> 01:12:49,765 Look, I think Ali saw a ghost. 916 01:12:50,901 --> 01:12:54,954 But she wasn't to know that it was her own. 917 01:12:54,955 --> 01:12:56,822 I believe she recorded a ghost. 918 01:12:56,823 --> 01:13:00,959 I believe she recorded the future coming to get her. 919 01:13:18,245 --> 01:13:21,147 We had found out about the Tooheys, 920 01:13:21,148 --> 01:13:24,483 Ray, and what had happened at Lake Mungo. 921 01:13:25,469 --> 01:13:28,871 And by the time we returned home, 922 01:13:30,207 --> 01:13:33,176 the house felt different. It was... 923 01:13:34,679 --> 01:13:36,279 Calm. 924 01:13:44,922 --> 01:13:51,211 I think that Alice wanted us to know more about her. 925 01:13:51,212 --> 01:13:55,331 She wanted us to know who she really was, 926 01:13:56,517 --> 01:13:58,467 before she... 927 01:13:59,236 --> 01:14:02,171 You know, before she could leave. 928 01:14:08,329 --> 01:14:10,729 In the weeks and months after Lake Mungo, 929 01:14:10,730 --> 01:14:14,633 we started to feel like a family again. 930 01:14:15,803 --> 01:14:18,700 It just crept up on us, really. 931 01:14:18,710 --> 01:14:21,574 We were a little battered and wobbly, 932 01:14:21,575 --> 01:14:24,270 but we were a family all the same. 933 01:14:32,202 --> 01:14:33,486 Hi, Ray. Nice to see you, Russell. 934 01:14:33,487 --> 01:14:35,455 Yeah, you too. Nice. Come in. 935 01:14:35,456 --> 01:14:37,290 Ray called out of the blue 936 01:14:37,291 --> 01:14:39,959 and said he was going to be coming through town 937 01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:44,730 and asked if it was all right if he could come round and visit. 938 01:14:44,731 --> 01:14:46,366 Six months had gone by, 939 01:14:46,367 --> 01:14:51,304 and I just felt that under the circumstances, 940 01:14:51,305 --> 01:14:54,190 I didn't think it could do any harm. 941 01:14:57,844 --> 01:15:01,630 I think we all felt that after Mungo, 942 01:15:01,631 --> 01:15:06,100 in our own ways, there'd been closure, I suppose, to a degree. 943 01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:08,388 And, you know, for each of us it's different. 944 01:15:08,389 --> 01:15:12,157 And for each of us, we've made our own peace. 945 01:15:18,248 --> 01:15:23,452 It seems strange to me that Ali should withdraw so abruptly. 946 01:15:23,453 --> 01:15:28,607 And we didn't help her, we didn't change anything. 947 01:15:28,608 --> 01:15:34,480 I think we just collectively made a decision to move forward. 948 01:15:35,199 --> 01:15:38,117 And, you know, moving 949 01:15:38,118 --> 01:15:42,455 was really a big part of all that... Deciding to move. 950 01:16:00,590 --> 01:16:03,809 It will be difficult to leave the house. 951 01:16:04,695 --> 01:16:08,140 Sometimes, you know, I just forget that... 952 01:16:10,317 --> 01:16:13,619 She's not coming back. 953 01:16:14,855 --> 01:16:16,522 I forget. 954 01:16:46,886 --> 01:16:50,222 Okay. Close your eyes 955 01:16:51,692 --> 01:16:55,595 and imagine that you're back standing outside the house. 956 01:16:55,596 --> 01:16:56,779 Mmm-hmm. 957 01:16:56,780 --> 01:16:58,947 Can you see it? 958 01:17:02,735 --> 01:17:04,903 Go inside the house. 959 01:17:06,957 --> 01:17:09,808 I'm going through the front door. 960 01:17:12,620 --> 01:17:13,445 And... 961 01:17:16,300 --> 01:17:19,585 Walking down the hall towards Alice's room. 962 01:17:25,442 --> 01:17:28,770 Someone's there. 963 01:17:28,780 --> 01:17:30,329 I think someone's coming down the hall. 964 01:17:30,330 --> 01:17:32,147 Door's open. 965 01:17:34,334 --> 01:17:36,601 Do you know who it is? 966 01:17:48,165 --> 01:17:50,466 Do you want to go inside? 967 01:17:51,335 --> 01:17:52,868 Yeah. 968 01:17:54,754 --> 01:17:56,221 Okay. 969 01:18:06,666 --> 01:18:08,667 What do you see? 970 01:18:08,668 --> 01:18:10,680 It's my mum. 971 01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:14,790 What's she saying? 972 01:18:14,791 --> 01:18:17,926 She's not... She's not saying anything. 973 01:18:24,134 --> 01:18:26,968 I don't think she knows I'm there. 974 01:18:30,524 --> 01:18:32,557 Alice isn't here. 975 01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:35,661 She's not here. 976 01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:39,310 What's happening, Alice? 977 01:18:40,184 --> 01:18:42,385 Are you talking to her? Is she talking to you? 978 01:18:42,386 --> 01:18:44,386 She's going now. 979 01:18:46,306 --> 01:18:48,657 She's leaving the room. 980 01:18:51,228 --> 01:18:52,995 She's gone. 981 01:18:53,363 --> 01:18:55,297 Open your eyes. 982 01:19:49,102 --> 01:19:51,520 She's going now. 983 01:19:53,340 --> 01:19:55,641 She's leaving the room. 984 01:20:04,367 --> 01:20:06,167 All the way. 985 01:20:25,380 --> 01:20:26,889 She's gone. 79838

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