All language subtitles for murder.among.the.mormons.s01e03

When did you first begin

to think about killing people?

That's a good question.

The bomb parts for the first two bombs

were purchased a week or two
before they were constructed.

My idea at that point was…

to have those materials
to keep my options open.

So probably the same day
I made that purchase

is when I first considered taking life,

uh, to get myself out
of the jam that I felt I was in.

I felt at that time like
drastic measures were called for.

Someone would have to die.

But I didn't know who.

-Do you understand that?
- Yes.

Are you frightened, Mark?

Not really. Pretty calm.

Mr. Hofmann is assigned…

US Pin Number 18186. Is that correct?

-I believe so.
- Okay.

Mr. Hofmann, first of all,

I'll ask questions
based on each of the crimes.

Then I'll go on to a discussion
of your background,

and there will be
some questions related to that.

All right?

Go ahead with the questions.

You've been
deceiving people for some time.

Essentially, what I would describe
as a life of deception.

More harmless experimentation,

rather than criminal.

Do you feel proud of yourself
at the moment?

As far back as I can remember,

I have liked to impress people
through my deceptions.

Fooling people gave me
a sense of power and superiority.

When I was about 12 years old,

I began collecting coins.

Soon afterwards,
I figured out some crude ways

to fool other collectors by altering coins

and make them appear more desirable.

By the time I was 14,
I had developed a forgery technique

which I felt was undetectable.

Anyway, it ended up
going to the Treasury Department,

where it was pronounced genuine.

In my view

if the Treasury Department
pronounces it genuine,

then it is genuine by definition.

It's not so much
what is genuine and what isn't,

as what people believe is genuine.

Marital information,
you married Doralee Olds Hofmann.

You have four children,
and the indication is that your marriage

is likely to stay intact.

Is that correct?

I think so.

And nothing indicates that she had
any notion of what was going on

relative to the forgeries.

That's right.

You staged
the discovery of the Anthon Transcript

in front of your wife. Is that correct?

That's correct.

Did you feel any compunction
about using your wife in that fashion?

Well, as strange as it sounds,
I didn't feel like I was using her.

You know,
she didn't ask me about my business,

and I didn't volunteer information.

You know,  she was always very supportive,

and no one would have guessed that…
You know, the kind of man I was.

She was useful to you in that way?

- That's correct.
-Okay.

You kept a room locked
with all of your paraphernalia in it.

Is that how that happened?

-Yes.
-Okay.

And moved the paraphernalia
when she entered the room.

Mr. Ashworth,

is the reason you don't wanna
go into details of where you got it

to protect your sources?

Can you tell us
about the authenticity of it, or perhaps--

It seems strange that a lot
of what you did was made to order.

Someone would say,
"It'd be great to find,"

and suddenly you would've found it.
I--

I can't believe
that people didn't catch on.

I'm sure, neither can they.

Neither can I.

Do you have a set of beliefs,
Mr. Hofmann,

that serves as your anchor
in determining your behavior?

Yes, I have a philosophy of life.

As far as their development,
it's hard for me to say

if my actions sprang out of them,

or if I have developed them
in order to justify my actions.

The reason I ask you that

is that I think most people
do have a set of beliefs,

and one of the things that…

that impacted me about this
is that you seem to be so willing to toy,

if you will, with the beliefs of others.

I've always been
fascinated with the idea of…

why people believe what they do…

Toying with them, I guess, would be
more of an experimentation on my part…

…a way to analyze or try to figure out
why people do believe what they do.

I was always fascinated
with how the documents were believed

or the impact they had.

People tend to ignore anything

that does not fit
within their own beliefs.

They reject the facts
because it means giving up their beliefs,

for which they've sacrificed so much.

I wouldn't go as far to say
I wanted to change Mormon history.

Let me take that back.

Maybe I did.

Mr. Hofmann, I've read

a great deal of information
about the forgeries.

I was…

I was quite affected by the sophistication
that was involved there.

There's been a lot of stories
to the effect that

I was some sort of a genius forger
or something.

Which I don't think is accurate.

I think that,

to make themselves
look like the experts they are,

they have to try to build me up.

Since I fooled them.

Although I don't really
consider myself artistic,

I think I have the ability
to look at handwriting and copy it.

When I finally decided
to sit down and write it,

I would've composed it

and forged it all within a day or two.

It'd be aged on a metal screen,

with suction pulling down
from the front of the document to the back

with an old vacuum cleaner.

The purpose is to bring the brown
of the ink through to the back side.

This was a simple apparatus,

a five-gallon aquarium.

A piece of glass
is covering the top of it.

A plug goes into a 110-volt outlet.

One of the pieces of wire is going
into the aquarium.

The other is going into a jar
filled with water and salt.

The spark in the oxygen atmosphere
forms ozone,

and the ozone comes in contact
with the paper.

As far as the ink,

this was just a simple recipe
consisting of tannic acid, ferric sulfate,

and gum arabic.

I bought them from hobby shops.

These are experts
who are quite schooled,

and that by making them appear to be…

not so smart, you've…

made yourself appear
to look smarter than the rest of them.

I guess, looking back on it…

I'm proud of some of the techniques
that I developed.

In terms of employment,
you are a dealer in antiques,

particularly historic documents.

You listed your salary
during your peak years

as being in six figures.

What happened to all that money?

I traveled quite a bit.

I bought a lot of things.

Easy come, easy go.

What was your salary,
exclusive of the forgeries?

They were so intertwined
that that's hard to say.

Basically, the only reason why
I would buy or sell genuine documents

was as a cover.

Interesting.

I had the impression
that you were initially

a dealer of authentic documents,

and the forgery was something
that slipped in afterwards,

but you make it sound
as if you were primarily a forger

and authentic things
were just useful to you.

- That's correct.
- Okay.

[female interviewer sighs] Okay, you…

You indicated,
as you constructed the bombs

the night before the killings,

you decided at that point
who would get them,

where they would be placed.
Is that correct?

That's when I made the final decision.

Okay.

It-it sounds so callous
to be sitting there,

putting together these lethal

instrumentalities,

and to have not yet even decided
who was going to receive them.

My thoughts are
that's no great harm done,

might have died in a car accident.

You know, the worthlessness of life,
or whatever.

The whole idea was protection
of my family, or whatever,

from that knowledge.

As far as being identified
with certainty as the forger that I was.

The timed…

This is hard to explain because…

Well, I don't even understand fully, but…

I had a lot of thoughts
in my mind, obviously.

I knew what my teachings were.

As far as my religious teachings, I knew.

Even though I tried to justify
the taking of life as my own survival,

and that that was,

philosophically,
not an inappropriate thing to do.

I had feelings of,

not guilt so much as…

…feelings of wondering, as far as,
you know, what happens if I'm wrong?

Or what happens if there really is a God?

You know?

You said that the detonator on the bomb

you placed at the Sheets' home

was supposed to be defective,
that you didn't believe it would go off.

I figured
there was a 50% chance it would go off,

50% chance that it wouldn't.

If it didn't,
it wouldn't frustrate your purpose?

That's true.

It seems to me
that a man who creates

the kinds of documents you've created,

with the kind
of technical know-how and ability,

could ensure that that detonator
had not gone off,

and you could have served your purpose
without killing Mrs. Sheets.

Was that even…
Was that an option?

Well, it was certainly an option. Uh…

It was almost…

Well, as strange as it sounds,
it was almost a game.

Yeah.

Okay.

You claim that the Sheets bomb
was a diversion.

My thoughts were,

it didn't matter if…

it was Mr. Sheets, a child,

a dog, you know, whoever.

Yeah.

Do you consider
yourself a violently dangerous person?

No.

Although, I'm sure a lot of people
would disagree with that,

given the nature of my crimes.

You've tried to tell
us the third bomb was a suicide attempt.

- That's right.
-If you intended to commit suicide,

why was it necessary
to kill Mr. Christensen and Mrs. Sheets?

I didn't decide to commit suicide
until after…

uh, Mr. Christensen and Mrs. Sheets
were killed.

Then, was it in response to the…

feelings that came as a consequence
of having killed those people

that you decided to commit suicide?

It wasn't so much feelings of guilt
as feelings of protection.

- Okay. I--
- For me.

I didn't suggest guilt.

The reason
I'm pressing about the suicide attempt

is that I'm not sure
it's going to do any good to ask you

the question that's really
in the back of my mind, that is

what were you going to do
with that third bomb?

Lot of thoughts
went through my mind at the time.

I even thought of the possibility

of killing people
who were associates with me.

The whole idea

was to delay getting caught on the fraud.

Opinion seems to be split.

Some folks say
that you express genuine remorse.

The prosecutor and the psychologist
see no remorse at all.

Which is the true story?

Well, definitely I feel remorse.

For yourself
and your family, or for your victims?

Part of my philosophy of life,
we were talking about earlier,

is that the victims
are not suffering at this point.

It strikes me, as I look
at this case, I can't help but feel,

that there are so many victims,
the Sheets family, the Christensen family,

including some people
you've called a friend.

How do you feel about your own family?

You have a spouse, now who will be alone.

You have four children,
who will not have a father.

Fifteen minutes old, huh?

Aw, I wonder what he'll be like
in 20 minutes.

It's obviously harder on them
than it is on me,

the same with any of the victims.

I figure that I-- I deserve what I get.

Given the offenses you have committed,

do you think you should
ever be free again?

I'm not asking whether you want to be.

I'm sure you want to be.

Do you think you should
ever be free again?

That's a good question.

I think that someday, I should be free.

Just explain
that he was very good at what he did,

possibly the best ever.