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Al Qur'an dusturuna,
the Koran is our constitution.
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Wa jihad ou dari qouna,
the jihad is our way.
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And to die,
to seek death and martyrdom
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in the path of Allah is our
highest ambition and our goal.
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Last
summer, I met this man,
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one of the founding fathers
of jihad in the UK.
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I fought on the battlefields of
Afghanistan, Kashmir and Burma.
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I inspired and recruited.
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I trained, I raised funds,
I sent people for training,
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I went and fought myself,
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and it wasn't just for a one off...
15 to 20 years.
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His name is Abu Muntasir.
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He is one of the people most
responsible for spreading
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jihadism throughout
the Western world.
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I used to carry
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three knives with me.
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One was a bayonet, it's
designed in such a way,
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diamond shaped,
so that the wound doesn't
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close so more bleeding.
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In my briefcase, in my car, a
knuckle-duster, as well, a metal one.
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I wanted to know why
so many young people today
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are drawn to violent extremism,
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fighting and dying on
battlefields far from home.
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In the last 18 months,
I've travelled the UK,
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meeting men and women who had
embraced extremism in the past,
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to try to understand why.
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I just had so much hate in me,
I wanted to kill or be killed.
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When you're fighting
in a battlefield,
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you do what you have to do.
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You've got to shoot him, you've got to chop
him, you've got to take his head off.
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Do what you've got to do,
you're in a battlefield.
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I met a young man,
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who had been groomed by an extremist.
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So, all you think about is,
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"I need to go out
and I need to fight."
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That's all you think about.
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If you achieve martyrdom
then that's the best thing.
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I met ordinary young Muslims,
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too, and heard how they feel.
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For all the harm that they've
done to civilisations,
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to people, to communities,
to countries, to states.
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My dream is to see the
American empire fall.
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I wanted to know,
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how can we save
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the next generation from extremism?
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I was called in at school
and the teacher said to me,
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"Your child came up and said
that it's OK for us to kill,
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you know, non-Muslims, " and
I thought, " Oh, my God.
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What is happening here?"
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My name is Deeyah Khan,
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I was born in the West,
to parents from the East.
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Being a child of two
cultures made me who I am.
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I am now a film-maker, and
a human rights activist.
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Because of my work,
I've faced threats
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from religious extremists.
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In the past, I had to leave
my own home and my family.
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And some of my friends
have been harmed
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and even killed by fundamentalists.
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I've been horrified
to see young people,
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with backgrounds like mine,
joining jihadi movements.
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So for this film, I decided
to meet the men and women
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who had embraced
extremism in the past,
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men and women of all
ages and backgrounds,
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all living in Britain today.
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I wanted to know why they had
been drawn into extremism.
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Only by understanding the reasons,
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can we begin to challenge
this violent movement.
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What I learned, and what I filmed,
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surprised even me.
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It all started when
I met Abu Muntasir.
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A British imam, he has a gentle
manner and is softly spoken.
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He leads a small community
of devout Muslims.
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He preaches around the country,
he does charitable works.
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But in his past, Abu Muntasir
was a jihadi fighter.
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A man who worked tirelessly
to radicalise thousands
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of Western Muslims.
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I sat with one of
the founding fathers
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of the Western Jihad and I listened.
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Thirty years ago,
Abu Muntasir was a charismatic
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and fiery Islamic preacher, with
a large following in the UK.
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If you had to briefly describe
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the world view that you had
at that time, what was it?
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The world is populated by
Muslims and non-Muslims.
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That everything that
constitutes disbelief,
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unbelief in their systems,
in their education,
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in their way of life, all
of it is dishonourable
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or defective or corrupt.
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Alyas was one of his loyal followers.
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I found in Abu Muntasir
an inspirational person.
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A role model that I had been
looking for all my life.
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He was a strong male,
with very strong ideas.
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Usama was a bookish, shy teenager
when he joined Abu Muntasir's group.
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He was my hero when it came to religion.
You know, I totally looked up to him.
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He was our group leader.
He had all the qualities.
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He was brave, he was educated, he
was intelligent, he was articulate.
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We would all go, every week,
to his circles in East London
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and actually became his
groupies very quickly.
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They were offering
something which, you know,
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I never had before.
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A family, understanding, belonging.
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This is where the journey starts.
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Throughout the 1980s,
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Islamic fighters in Afghanistan
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were resisting the Russian invasion,
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calling it a holy war, a jihad.
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Young Muslims, like Abu Muntasir,
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became energised and ready
to fight for the cause.
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I came out in the forefront and
started to wake up the people saying,
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"What's the matter with you?
Where is your spirit?"
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And, "How can you be so lazy?"
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And all this rhetoric and talk,
you know,
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garnished and sprinkled with
lots of emotive terms and words.
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We will not tolerate
attack upon the Muslims.
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It is our duty to conduct jihad.
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The kuffar have no honour.
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They are not the friends of Allah,
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they're friends of Shaytan.
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After raising funds and
preaching jihad throughout the UK,
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Abu Muntasir says he was among
the first Muslims from Britain
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to actually go and
fight in Afghanistan.
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I went to Peshawar in Pakistan.
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Took one friend with me from
Kingston, a Punjabi brother.
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And that's my very first time
when I went to Afghanistan,
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to clear and to create the
link and clear the path,
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that's the expressions
we used to use.
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And I came back, I think I was one of
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the first people from England to go.
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Came back, and opened the door.
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And then it started from
a trickle to a flow.
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On one trip, in 1990,
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Usama asked to come along.
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It was an exhilarating
experience, I have to say,
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when you are 19 and you are
essentially a bookworm like me,
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very academically minded.
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To be transported into the incredibly
beautiful mountain of Afghanistan,
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in the middle of a war, was absolutely
exhilarating. A real adventure.
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Abu Muntasir's example
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spurred on many other
Muslims across the West.
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Everyone had to imitate him.
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And there were many
individuals who did,
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followed in his footsteps.
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He set the dye and then, as
I said, it kind of spread.
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I bought weapons for
myself and others.
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I arranged weapons drops,
ammunition drops.
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I am also one of the
key persons in the UK
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who brought in speakers from abroad
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who advocated armed jihad
and they motivated others.
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Munir was one of the many
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young British Muslims who had
heard of his reputation.
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This man was famous, famous
to the point he was infamous.
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Six foot seven giant of a man
who can pick up ten guys,
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ten non-Muslims and
toss them over a tank.
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I had to meet this Abu Muntasir,
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and I made it my kind of
mission to track him down.
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He found Abu Muntasir
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speaking in a mosque in London.
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He was calm and he was considered.
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I remember that really well.
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Dressed in black. All black
with a black turban.
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I'd never seen anyone dress
like that in the UK.
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Legendary father of the jihad.
I was in awe of that look.
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I thought to myself, "This is
what the warriors look like."
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What we felt was, as a
group, we were unique.
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You know, there's no one like us.
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We had a uniform, you know,
we had a dress code.
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I used to dress absolutely
whack in those days.
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Really, if I look at the
way I used to dress,
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I used to wear turbans like this,
yeah.
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Massive turbans, you know, and
with long flowing Arab gowns
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because it was a part
of the rejection,
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as well of my mainstream
western dress.
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Alyas told me Abu Muntasir
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used unusual tricks while
teaching his followers.
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OK, this is the trick.
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Uh, you are in a circle,
everyone's there.
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He's doing the Islamic lecture. He's
doing the Halaqa, it's a circle, yeah.
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And he'd get out
some brown envelopes,
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and he would give it
to certain people.
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And you're wishing,
"Oh, I wish I get a brown envelope."
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We are in the brown envelope brigade.
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We are the brown envelopes. And then
he would give someone a brown...
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He would give some envelopes
and others no envelopes.
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And if you didn't get an
envelope you felt like shit.
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Honestly, you felt like absolute shit.
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Oh, fucking hell, I ain't
got one of these envelopes.
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And all these other guys have
got these envelopes, yeah.
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"Oh, tell me what's in the envelope.
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What's in... what's in the envelope?"
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...we have the envelope, you
haven't got the envelope.
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We are in the inner circle,
you're in the outer circle.
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I feared not getting a brown envelope,
you know, come on.
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This is silly stuff, isn't it?
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But what it is, this is cults,
this is how cults operate.
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You know...
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What was in it?
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Do you know what was in it?
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It was such a benign thing,
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it was just a photocopy of a book
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you could get anywhere anyway.
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It was just playing silly
games with people.
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And you think about it, you give
up the best years of your life.
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You know, I gave the best years
of my life to... to them.
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In the years to come,
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many hundreds of Westerners
went to fight abroad,
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to the battlefields of Kashmir,
Burma, Bosnia and Chechnya.
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Just like today, British
fighters in balaclavas
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wielding machine guns gave
triumphant interviews.
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I'm 21 years old.
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I'm a third year medical student
in Birmingham University
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and I live in Golders Green.
Every time I'm in Britain,
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I watch the TV and
tears roll down my face
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when I see the Muslims in Bosnia,
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00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,880
Muslims in Palestine,
Muslims in Kashmir.
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And then I come here and you
feel a sense of satisfaction.
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00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:02,440
You feel that you're
fulfilling your duty.
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00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,800
If you want to see true people,
true Muslims with unity,
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00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,240
come to this place. Then you'll see.
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These people, Mujahideen,
come from all over the world.
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They come to fight here,
not for the money,
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for the sake of Allah.
Allahu akbar!
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Shahid was one man
who heeded the call,
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spurred on by atrocity footage
of the war in Bosnia.
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I came out of the
Birmingham Central Masjid,
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there was a guy standing outside, he had
a big brown box full of video cassettes.
225
00:10:29,057 --> 00:10:31,880
It was called "Massacres
in Bosnia and Croatia."
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The videos featured
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disturbing footage,
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similar to this Bosnian TV footage of
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a bloody massacre in Sarajevo.
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The video was very explicit.
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I mean, you know, it actually showed,
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pregnant women with their
stomachs cut open.
233
00:10:43,690 --> 00:10:46,073
All kinds of stuff. I
mean, it was shocking.
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00:10:46,221 --> 00:10:49,560
Shahid says he travelled
to Bosnia in an aid convoy.
235
00:10:49,770 --> 00:10:51,890
When you actually see, physically...
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00:10:51,901 --> 00:10:55,000
When you smell the stench
of vomit and you hear
237
00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:59,049
the screams and the cries and
the children who are hungry,
238
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that's when something just clicked
inside my heart and inside my head.
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00:11:02,891 --> 00:11:04,611
And I thought to myself,
240
00:11:05,032 --> 00:11:08,099
"Well, you know, I haven't
got any money to give you,
241
00:11:08,110 --> 00:11:09,840
I haven't got any food to give you.
242
00:11:10,112 --> 00:11:14,160
But there is one thing I can do.
I can fight, I can defend you."
243
00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,312
And that's when I made up
my mind to stay and to,
244
00:11:17,323 --> 00:11:19,018
basically, to defend these people.
245
00:11:19,088 --> 00:11:20,440
Shahid was later convicted
246
00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,920
of terrorism in Yemen,
although he says he was
247
00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:24,960
tortured into a false confession.
248
00:11:25,203 --> 00:11:27,203
He says he doesn't support ISIS.
249
00:11:27,229 --> 00:11:29,632
For him, fighting in
Bosnia was a noble act
250
00:11:29,643 --> 00:11:33,846
to help other Muslims, a distinction
also made by other former fighters.
251
00:11:33,963 --> 00:11:36,940
It's our ambition.
It's part of our deen.
252
00:11:37,049 --> 00:11:40,360
We want an Islamic state.
We want sharia to prevail.
253
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,858
We want everyone to live in peace.
254
00:11:42,869 --> 00:11:44,920
When you're fighting
in a battlefield,
255
00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:46,500
they're in front of
you and you fight,
256
00:11:46,501 --> 00:11:48,040
that's a different story.
257
00:11:48,401 --> 00:11:51,627
Then there's... then
it's kill or be killed.
258
00:11:51,846 --> 00:11:54,491
Let's not mince words, he's coming
for you, you're going for them.
259
00:11:54,502 --> 00:11:55,750
You know what I mean, you
do what you have to do.
260
00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:57,709
You got to shoot him,
you gotta chop him,
261
00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,150
you gotta take his head off.
Do what you gotta do,
262
00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,000
you're in a battlefield.
You're fighting.
263
00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,198
But when,
once you've subdued your enemy,
264
00:12:04,330 --> 00:12:06,120
he's now at your mercy.
265
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:07,660
He's got no weapon. His head is down,
266
00:12:07,661 --> 00:12:09,541
his hands are bound.
267
00:12:09,666 --> 00:12:12,160
That's when the true character
of a mujahid comes out,
268
00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,041
because that's when
you show compassion.
269
00:12:14,127 --> 00:12:16,440
Growing up in London, Munir, too,
270
00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,680
says he became immersed in
the message of extremism.
271
00:12:20,035 --> 00:12:22,440
My story, when I look back on it,
272
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,280
and my journey as a young man...
273
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,280
I just had so much hate in me.
274
00:12:28,675 --> 00:12:32,471
Raging inside me was hatred,
by that age, was anger,
275
00:12:32,635 --> 00:12:33,840
was disaffection.
276
00:12:34,277 --> 00:12:38,920
I wanted to vent that so badly.
I wanted to kill or be killed.
277
00:12:39,257 --> 00:12:42,017
So my wishes at the time...
278
00:12:43,314 --> 00:12:45,703
were that I died on
the field of battle.
279
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,306
And I killed as many
non-believers as I could
280
00:12:49,317 --> 00:12:50,931
who opposed
me on that field.
281
00:12:51,737 --> 00:12:55,017
I'd have liked to have been on
the streets of Afghanistan.
282
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,920
I'd like to have dealt
with Russian soldiers.
283
00:13:00,194 --> 00:13:02,287
I wanted to look the
enemy in the eye.
284
00:13:02,298 --> 00:13:05,056
I wanted to meet them
on the field of battle.
285
00:13:05,134 --> 00:13:06,640
Looking back now,
286
00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:08,640
what has been the impact
287
00:13:08,735 --> 00:13:11,455
of Abu Muntasir on
where we are today?
288
00:13:11,844 --> 00:13:14,126
If we go back into the '80s and '90s
289
00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:15,840
there were viruses,
290
00:13:16,070 --> 00:13:17,998
these were viruses you could say,
291
00:13:18,009 --> 00:13:19,440
infected the Muslim community.
292
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,880
One of them was the virus
that might is right.
293
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,009
That the only way you could achieve
change is through violence.
294
00:13:25,243 --> 00:13:27,440
That virus, you know,
was already there.
295
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,000
We carried that virus further
and then we kind of,
296
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,384
you could say, infected a generation
with that particular virus.
297
00:13:33,696 --> 00:13:35,480
It wasn't that this
was a good thing to do.
298
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,240
This is the best to do.
299
00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,200
This is the most noble thing to do.
300
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:44,360
Everything that you're doing
should be culminating in that.
301
00:13:44,552 --> 00:13:46,552
What's the culmination?
302
00:13:46,563 --> 00:13:48,477
Jihad and to die as a martyr.
303
00:13:49,202 --> 00:13:50,871
That was his message?
304
00:13:50,938 --> 00:13:52,680
Ultimately,
that was the message, yeah.
305
00:13:53,243 --> 00:13:54,080
It was a message
306
00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:55,400
spread throughout the world,
307
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,118
by extremist clerics.
308
00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:59,782
Speakers like Anwar Al-Awlaki,
309
00:13:59,793 --> 00:14:03,084
who was given a stage to speak
in Britain by Abu Muntasir,
310
00:14:03,095 --> 00:14:05,680
and went on to be a
notorious jihadi preacher.
311
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,520
We are fighting for a noble cause.
312
00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:08,800
We are fighting for God.
313
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,200
Jihad is binding upon myself,
314
00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,640
just as it is binding on
every other able Muslim.
315
00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:16,240
In the past few years,
316
00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,080
the infection has spread
faster and faster.
317
00:14:19,352 --> 00:14:20,840
We love death the way you love life.
318
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:22,320
As you kill us, you will be killed.
319
00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:23,920
And as you bomb us,
you will be bombed.
320
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:25,599
Fighting the enemies of Allah,
321
00:14:25,610 --> 00:14:27,040
you see no one who does it like us.
322
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,030
It's you that need jihad. We
just want to meet our lord.
323
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,440
Ask yourselves,
why would thousands of men
324
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,680
be ready to give their lives
for the cause of Muslims?
325
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,640
I'd seen how jihadism
had started in the West,
326
00:14:39,850 --> 00:14:44,110
but now I wanted to know, why do
some people embrace this message?
327
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,800
I asked Alyas, was there
something in his past,
328
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,560
in his own personal history,
which could explain why
329
00:14:49,571 --> 00:14:51,282
he was drawn to extremism?
330
00:14:51,293 --> 00:14:52,204
In South London,
331
00:14:52,215 --> 00:14:54,618
I grew up in a white,
working class community.
332
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,680
I had no interest
in Islam whatsoever.
333
00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,640
I hated being brown, I
hated being Pakistani,
334
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:01,000
I hated being Muslim.
335
00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,120
Why did you hate being brown?
336
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:07,146
Because I grew up in an environment
where there was non-stop racism,
337
00:15:07,157 --> 00:15:10,727
Brown people were seen
as lesser, second class.
338
00:15:10,739 --> 00:15:13,959
You know, it was just that
inferiority complex that you have.
339
00:15:13,970 --> 00:15:16,080
There was nothing to celebrate about
who you were.
340
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,193
Especially in an environment
where everyone else is white.
341
00:15:18,204 --> 00:15:22,000
You want to fit in, you know.
And you fit in how?
342
00:15:22,290 --> 00:15:27,227
By being just like everyone else but more
so, over compensating, over exaggerating.
343
00:15:27,267 --> 00:15:31,560
I had my white girlfriends, and
then middle class parents saying,
344
00:15:32,345 --> 00:15:34,400
"Oh,
but you'll have mongrel children."
345
00:15:34,469 --> 00:15:36,665
These were middle class,
so called middle class,
346
00:15:36,676 --> 00:15:39,517
educated parents who were doing this.
347
00:15:39,571 --> 00:15:41,120
I've done everything to fit in.
348
00:15:41,477 --> 00:15:44,520
I've even got the white
girlfriend and everything else
349
00:15:44,852 --> 00:15:46,920
and still you're not accepted,
bizarrely.
350
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:48,960
Still you're not accepted.
351
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:50,840
Munir is another man
352
00:15:50,841 --> 00:15:52,680
who was marked by his past.
353
00:15:53,376 --> 00:15:56,696
I had serious issues coming to
terms with the way I looked.
354
00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,407
The physical impairment from birth.
355
00:16:00,540 --> 00:16:03,118
I grew up feeling emasculated anyway
356
00:16:03,129 --> 00:16:04,798
because of my disability.
357
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,654
And I'd walk home from school
as a six-year-old on my own
358
00:16:07,665 --> 00:16:10,560
and sometimes be heckled
and sometimes chased
359
00:16:10,571 --> 00:16:11,800
and threatened.
360
00:16:12,059 --> 00:16:14,099
I'd have things thrown at me.
361
00:16:14,571 --> 00:16:17,079
P-A-K-I
362
00:16:17,220 --> 00:16:21,009
G-O H-O-M-E
363
00:16:22,957 --> 00:16:24,557
I heard that religiously,
364
00:16:24,744 --> 00:16:26,717
like the five times call to prayer,
365
00:16:27,086 --> 00:16:29,000
for the first 16 years of my life.
366
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,040
I felt so shunned by everybody.
367
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,240
I felt so alone, so isolated.
368
00:16:33,397 --> 00:16:36,037
I just felt like death would
have been a really good option.
369
00:16:36,077 --> 00:16:37,757
I didn't have a passion for life.
370
00:16:38,078 --> 00:16:42,189
Martyrdom, the notion of
the Shaheed, the mujahid,
371
00:16:42,921 --> 00:16:47,245
they became inspiring, they
very much became enabling.
372
00:16:47,532 --> 00:16:50,640
I think, for me, I was
unmistakably drawn to it.
373
00:16:50,923 --> 00:16:54,240
Munir says he was never a
core member of an extremist group,
374
00:16:54,309 --> 00:16:56,109
but became sucked into the mentality
375
00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:57,962
by listening to their preachers.
376
00:16:58,157 --> 00:16:59,440
He was further radicalised
377
00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,680
by images of wars against Muslims
378
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,640
and the deaths of innocent
Muslim civilians abroad.
379
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,760
When people are able to relay
to you powerful stories
380
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,400
of suffering and oppression
from around the world,
381
00:17:10,478 --> 00:17:13,982
and they can use one common
binding theme that these people
382
00:17:13,993 --> 00:17:15,462
are Muslims who are suffering,
383
00:17:15,509 --> 00:17:18,760
then I realised, "I feel
exactly like those people.
384
00:17:19,165 --> 00:17:22,954
I feel as abused as they do. I
feel as helpless as they do."
385
00:17:23,165 --> 00:17:24,829
And you just transfer that angst,
386
00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,024
you just transfer that
sense of grievance.
387
00:17:27,188 --> 00:17:30,352
For someone like me, who didn't
even know where I fit in,
388
00:17:31,032 --> 00:17:33,440
fighting for the path of Allah
389
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,800
was almost a transcendental emotion.
390
00:17:36,715 --> 00:17:38,475
I'd heard from his followers,
391
00:17:38,486 --> 00:17:41,446
but what about Abu Muntasir
himself, the leader?
392
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,640
What was his story before
he became a jihadi warrior?
393
00:17:46,177 --> 00:17:48,099
I went back to him
and asked him about
394
00:17:48,110 --> 00:17:49,600
his childhood in Bangladesh,
395
00:17:49,624 --> 00:17:51,624
before his family moved to Britain.
396
00:17:51,946 --> 00:17:54,190
I was born in '59,
the first war with India
397
00:17:54,201 --> 00:17:56,091
happened in 1965.
398
00:17:56,916 --> 00:17:58,677
So I was five or six years old.
399
00:17:58,688 --> 00:18:00,008
And I remember when I was eight,
400
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,852
taking a vow, to kill a Hindu.
401
00:18:03,349 --> 00:18:04,680
Any random Hindu.
402
00:18:04,691 --> 00:18:07,538
Even just to go out in the
streets and randomly stab.
403
00:18:07,549 --> 00:18:09,709
Just because someone is a Hindu.
404
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,243
Then the
'71 war happened with Pakistan,
405
00:18:13,254 --> 00:18:14,893
to liberate Bangladesh,
406
00:18:15,212 --> 00:18:20,337
which was very graphic in terms
of the atrocities committed.
407
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,560
I saw dogs eating dead bodies.
408
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,240
People walking around with
bullet wounds crying for help.
409
00:18:25,657 --> 00:18:28,040
My neighbour upstairs and
downstairs were taken away
410
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,837
and shot and they were pleading
us, "Oh, please help us.
411
00:18:30,931 --> 00:18:32,420
When I was about 11 or 12
years old, that's when
412
00:18:32,421 --> 00:18:34,440
my elder brother was murdered.
413
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,131
So that very much affected me
because I was very close to him.
414
00:18:38,142 --> 00:18:43,532
So I lost 22 of my relatives. And
I hear horror stories about them.
415
00:18:43,834 --> 00:18:46,259
And although that
was 30, 40 years ago,
416
00:18:46,379 --> 00:18:47,839
it affects me more now
417
00:18:48,380 --> 00:18:51,673
because I can visualise, imagine.
418
00:18:52,115 --> 00:18:54,595
A dozen of them were
taken out of their houses
419
00:18:54,606 --> 00:18:56,451
and their throats were slit.
420
00:19:00,539 --> 00:19:02,859
I was beginning to hear The deeper reasons
421
00:19:02,884 --> 00:19:05,943
Why some people might be
susceptible to extremism.
422
00:19:06,375 --> 00:19:09,575
But I also wanted to talk
to ordinary young Muslims.
423
00:19:09,794 --> 00:19:11,954
I wanted to hear their perspectives.
424
00:19:12,271 --> 00:19:14,195
Alyas offered to help me out.
425
00:19:14,396 --> 00:19:18,056
He told me he's now renounced the
extremism of his younger years.
426
00:19:18,727 --> 00:19:22,764
He's now an imam in Bradford, and
he works with young Muslims.
427
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:24,960
He introduced me to some of them.
428
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,320
I wanted to hear
what they had to say.
429
00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:30,600
And to hopefully build more
understanding between people,
430
00:19:30,741 --> 00:19:34,061
so that they can hate and
fear each other less.
431
00:19:34,105 --> 00:19:37,617
I've been trying to get
young people across the UK
432
00:19:37,882 --> 00:19:39,292
to talk about this issue.
433
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,957
And talk about the impact of
the War on Terror on them.
434
00:19:41,968 --> 00:19:43,710
Zekarias, I know you've
got a lot to say on this.
435
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,640
There is one emotion that comes
out of it and that is anger.
436
00:19:46,789 --> 00:19:50,240
We all are angry, we all are angry about
the fact that we are being victimised,
437
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,840
That we are being stopped
and searched at airports,
438
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,200
and being forced to give in our DNA
439
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,920
simply because we walk in
with a thobe and a beard.
440
00:19:58,179 --> 00:19:59,900
Or that we are being stopped
and searched in the street for
441
00:19:59,910 --> 00:20:01,906
being black or wearing a hoodie.
442
00:20:02,090 --> 00:20:05,187
You attack people who behead soldiers
443
00:20:05,198 --> 00:20:07,210
on the streets of London,
444
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,429
but yet you don't talk about
US soldiers or UK soldiers
445
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,210
who go into villages and murder
innocent people by the hundreds
446
00:20:15,221 --> 00:20:16,351
and by the thousands.
447
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,542
- So...
- Who is you?
448
00:20:19,215 --> 00:20:23,395
The UK government and
citizens of the UK,
449
00:20:23,406 --> 00:20:24,760
regular citizens of the UK.
450
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,625
Citizens, just normal citizens.
And the media.
451
00:20:29,318 --> 00:20:31,999
So how does that make Muslims feel,
452
00:20:32,010 --> 00:20:34,212
especially young Muslims feel?
453
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,152
Isolated, alienated, and angry.
454
00:20:37,273 --> 00:20:39,324
It could convert into
something positive,
455
00:20:39,335 --> 00:20:40,789
which would be activism,
456
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,920
which would be campaigning to make sure
the government is held responsible
457
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:45,680
For, you know,
certain policy measures
458
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:47,480
where they incriminate Muslim people,
459
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,160
young Muslim people, particularly.
460
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,080
Or it can be converted
into negative areas.
461
00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:54,080
And that's where you have groups.
462
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:56,000
- Extremism, violence.
- Exactly.
463
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,240
Zekarias is now a student
anti-racist campaigner.
464
00:20:59,507 --> 00:21:01,320
I asked him about his childhood.
465
00:21:01,664 --> 00:21:04,240
I was raised around
Harrow in North London.
466
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,760
And back then it wasn't gentrified.
467
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:08,680
So there was a lot of
white folks living there,
468
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:10,720
working class white
people and very racist.
469
00:21:11,125 --> 00:21:12,280
We used to be called niggers,
470
00:21:12,291 --> 00:21:14,481
we used to be called coons,
blackies, you name it.
471
00:21:14,492 --> 00:21:16,040
I became aware of my race,
472
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,600
aware of my ethnicity
at the age of five.
473
00:21:19,054 --> 00:21:20,528
I knew what it felt to be ashamed
474
00:21:20,539 --> 00:21:22,184
of the thickness of my nose,
475
00:21:22,195 --> 00:21:23,942
or my lips,
or the darkness of my skin,
476
00:21:23,953 --> 00:21:25,120
or the texture of my hair.
477
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,328
I knew exactly what it
felt to be like that.
478
00:21:27,504 --> 00:21:28,913
What's your dream?
479
00:21:28,924 --> 00:21:31,625
My dream is to see the
American empire fall.
480
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,480
And...
I mean that, I genuinely mean that,
481
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,240
for all the harm that they've done.
482
00:21:37,309 --> 00:21:41,171
To civilisations, to
people, to communities,
483
00:21:41,618 --> 00:21:43,458
to countries, to states.
484
00:21:43,765 --> 00:21:45,480
And dreams for your own life?
485
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,367
- My own life?
- Yes.
486
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:53,360
I don't really know.
487
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,400
Be happy?
488
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:56,740
Yeah, I guess, I guess everyone
489
00:21:56,741 --> 00:21:58,406
wants happiness, I guess.
490
00:21:58,437 --> 00:22:00,875
I'm a pessimist... I don't really
491
00:22:00,992 --> 00:22:03,120
look at things optimistically,
492
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,080
so... but... or a realist, whatever.
493
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:09,656
But I don't know,
don't know, can't say.
494
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,200
I think the biggest discussions
I have with people
495
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,250
really is about them
finding out who they are.
496
00:22:18,261 --> 00:22:22,078
It's hard being young, it's even
harder being young and Muslim.
497
00:22:22,250 --> 00:22:25,543
It's harder being young and
Muslim and being alone,
498
00:22:25,554 --> 00:22:29,160
and it's even harder being young,
Muslim and alone in the War on Terror.
499
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,640
It's harder for you
to get the same job
500
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,824
as your white counterpart,
even if you're a graduate.
501
00:22:34,835 --> 00:22:38,200
You're living in poorer areas, you're
more likely to be unemployed,
502
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,390
you are more likely to be stopped
and searched by the police.
503
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,789
No matter what you
try to do to fit in,
504
00:22:42,819 --> 00:22:44,534
to be a part of society,
505
00:22:44,675 --> 00:22:48,710
you are always being othered
and seen as an outsider.
506
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,723
And that is really deeply unsettling.
507
00:22:51,734 --> 00:22:53,220
In Birmingham, I was introduced
508
00:22:53,221 --> 00:22:55,240
to Sabeel and Waseem.
509
00:22:55,500 --> 00:23:00,989
Now you know what, I always say
when I'm in England I'm a Paki.
510
00:23:01,531 --> 00:23:03,285
That's what I get called.
I'm in England
511
00:23:03,296 --> 00:23:04,360
I get called a Paki.
512
00:23:04,695 --> 00:23:07,160
And when I go to Pakistan, they're like,
"Oh, you're British."
513
00:23:07,437 --> 00:23:08,655
They're calling me British.
514
00:23:08,666 --> 00:23:10,706
So I really feel like I
belong on an airplane,
515
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,324
just somewhere in between.
516
00:23:12,335 --> 00:23:13,840
Just hovering, that's where I belong,
517
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,269
like, that's the middle ground.
Because I feel like
518
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:17,510
I'm not going to have the chance
519
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:18,800
to have certain jobs and that,
520
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:20,560
you're just programmed
to think, like...
521
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,590
you know, you're not good enough
to have that certain job,
522
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,920
or that type of job is
for that type of person.
523
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:26,640
You know,
if I was younger and I says,
524
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,920
"I want to be a politician,
or whatever,"
525
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,640
they would have laughed at me,
they says,
526
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,240
"Come on, bruv. You're a
Paki from Balsall Heath,
527
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,329
you can't... that's
not for you," you know.
528
00:23:35,340 --> 00:23:36,410
Why couldn't I be?
529
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,989
Why couldn't I be the prime minister
530
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,177
if I wanted to?
531
00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:42,080
What, because I'm from Balsall Heath,
532
00:23:42,091 --> 00:23:44,241
you can't have a prime minister
that's from Balsall Heath?
533
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,801
But, automatically,
even we feel like that.
534
00:23:46,812 --> 00:23:48,680
Even we think like that.
If one of my friends
535
00:23:48,681 --> 00:23:50,560
wanted to do the same thing,
536
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,160
me having that programmed
into my mind all that time
537
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:54,670
I'd probably say the
same thing to him.
538
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,195
"Come on bruv, don't be silly.
539
00:23:56,206 --> 00:23:58,273
You're gonna own a corner shop,
and you're gonna drive a taxi."
540
00:23:58,320 --> 00:23:59,910
You know,
that's the stereotypical thing
541
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:01,468
what, you know,
people are made to believe.
542
00:24:01,479 --> 00:24:03,665
That's what we're going to
do, that's just what we do.
543
00:24:03,676 --> 00:24:06,062
You're told what to dream about,
you know.
544
00:24:06,165 --> 00:24:08,805
You're told that this is
what you can achieve.
545
00:24:08,816 --> 00:24:11,841
You being what you are,
the religion you are,
546
00:24:11,852 --> 00:24:14,996
the skin colour you are and
from the area you are,
547
00:24:15,007 --> 00:24:16,906
this is your limit.
548
00:24:16,917 --> 00:24:18,877
The sky's not the limit for you.
549
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,515
While I was filming, a
long-running terrorism case
550
00:24:23,526 --> 00:24:25,976
was taking place at the
Old Bailey in London.
551
00:24:26,234 --> 00:24:28,960
Two brothers from Bradford
had already pleaded guilty
552
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,157
to downloading jihadi
manuals from the Internet.
553
00:24:32,525 --> 00:24:34,813
The prosecution also
said they'd conspired
554
00:24:34,824 --> 00:24:36,440
to attend a terrorist
training camp,
555
00:24:36,451 --> 00:24:38,560
but the jury failed
to reach a verdict.
556
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,468
Now, they were waiting to see
if they faced a retrial.
557
00:24:41,500 --> 00:24:44,660
The court had been told the brothers
had been radicalised by their cousin,
558
00:24:44,671 --> 00:24:47,744
Muhammed Shafaraz Ahmed,
who is now a convicted terrorist.
559
00:24:47,755 --> 00:24:51,120
So, we're hoping the judge
will concede with our argument
560
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,531
and will dismiss the matter today.
561
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,520
And do you feel hopeful?
Do you feel that that's likely?
562
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,760
We are hopeful, because
these are young lads
563
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,000
who are being groomed, in essence,
564
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,320
and the prosecution
case concedes the fact
565
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:06,560
that they are being
groomed by their cousin,
566
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,656
who is a convicted terrorist,
who's facing 16 years
567
00:25:09,667 --> 00:25:11,328
of a prison sentence.
568
00:25:12,078 --> 00:25:14,920
One of the brothers,
Saeed, agreed to talk to me.
569
00:25:15,226 --> 00:25:17,240
He told me, despite the
charge he was facing,
570
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,773
he never had any intention of going
to join a training camp abroad.
571
00:25:21,155 --> 00:25:24,226
But he said his cousin had
tried to radicalise him.
572
00:25:24,390 --> 00:25:27,468
He said he had watched videos
of extremist preachers,
573
00:25:27,479 --> 00:25:28,893
like Anwar Al Awlaki,
574
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,360
intended to have a
strong emotional impact
575
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,546
on vulnerable young people like him.
576
00:25:33,557 --> 00:25:35,109
It puts that image inside you,
577
00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:37,973
that these are the true warriors.
578
00:25:37,984 --> 00:25:40,606
When I was feeling emotion
just watching these videos,
579
00:25:40,617 --> 00:25:43,921
you watch the Taliban and Al Qaeda,
580
00:25:43,937 --> 00:25:46,090
you watch these sort of videos,
581
00:25:46,101 --> 00:25:48,480
and you'll think you'll have
some sympathy for them,
582
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,820
thinking that, look, these...
they know how to fight,
583
00:25:51,831 --> 00:25:55,296
they are representing Islam.
That's how you feel,
584
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,120
but obviously later on,
you start understanding
585
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,335
that look, this is not how
it is supposed to be.
586
00:26:01,468 --> 00:26:02,800
Is it heroic?
587
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,593
That's how it makes you feel,
yeah, you feel like a hero.
588
00:26:06,851 --> 00:26:09,132
What was your life like at the time?
589
00:26:09,210 --> 00:26:11,840
It was just boring. I
didn't really go out, no.
590
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:13,920
I never actually used to
go out, play football.
591
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,160
I wasn't that type of person,
I used to just be at home.
592
00:26:17,351 --> 00:26:18,629
Why is that?
593
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,496
That's the upbringing that I've had.
594
00:26:20,507 --> 00:26:23,320
Did you feel like a
hero in your life before that?
595
00:26:23,531 --> 00:26:29,509
Uh, no, I didn't feel like I
really achieved anything.
596
00:26:29,750 --> 00:26:31,960
Going out and fighting felt like,
597
00:26:32,632 --> 00:26:34,760
that's the best achievement to do.
598
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,523
Like, if you achieve martyrdom,
then that's the best thing.
599
00:26:39,539 --> 00:26:41,200
Was your cousin nice to you?
600
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:42,843
Yeah, he was really nice to me.
601
00:26:42,865 --> 00:26:45,593
Being with him,
and going out with him,
602
00:26:45,886 --> 00:26:50,164
it felt like...
it was a different feeling,
603
00:26:50,175 --> 00:26:52,726
or something that we've
never done before.
604
00:26:53,354 --> 00:26:56,289
If you could be anything
in the world what would you do?
605
00:26:57,189 --> 00:26:58,595
Um...
606
00:27:00,058 --> 00:27:02,161
I don't really know.
607
00:27:06,126 --> 00:27:09,378
Alyas spends a lot of
time mentoring young Muslim men,
608
00:27:09,389 --> 00:27:12,212
many of whom have
difficult Relationships at home.
609
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:13,727
I know from my own life,
610
00:27:13,738 --> 00:27:16,429
that many South Asian
families can be controlling.
611
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,798
Young people must obey their parents.
612
00:27:18,844 --> 00:27:20,880
The fear of bringing
shame on the family
613
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,505
can set unbearable
limits on your dreams
614
00:27:23,516 --> 00:27:24,720
and your choices.
615
00:27:24,807 --> 00:27:27,328
Who you can marry, what you can study
616
00:27:27,339 --> 00:27:29,680
and even what you can
aspire to be in life.
617
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,480
In the South Asian context, you know,
618
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,000
there are lots of expectations,
and this is the biggest one.
619
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,240
You cannot dishonour the
family, you can't make them
620
00:27:36,241 --> 00:27:38,469
ashamed of you.
621
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,735
And this creates
loads of expectations
622
00:27:40,746 --> 00:27:41,789
on young people
623
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,720
that they feel that
they cannot meet.
624
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,600
They cannot achieve
those expectations.
625
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,466
So often, they lead a double life.
626
00:27:48,477 --> 00:27:49,760
I felt this was starting
627
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,080
to get to the heart of
why some young people
628
00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:54,000
are drawn into extremism.
629
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,058
They crave acceptance, and
they don't feel they belong,
630
00:27:57,069 --> 00:27:59,993
Either in the family, or
in the wider society.
631
00:28:00,227 --> 00:28:02,773
Extremist groups exploit this.
632
00:28:02,923 --> 00:28:06,920
When someone for the first
time starts to understand you,
633
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,280
emotionally support you,
put that arm around you.
634
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,520
Show compassion and love for you,
635
00:28:12,531 --> 00:28:15,388
this is enormously
powerful and compelling.
636
00:28:15,399 --> 00:28:19,024
We unconditionally accept you.
Brilliant, that's so powerful.
637
00:28:19,170 --> 00:28:20,549
I always say to Pakistani parents,
638
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:21,920
tell your children you love them
639
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,263
and tell them you are proud of them,
640
00:28:23,273 --> 00:28:24,753
because if you don't do that
641
00:28:24,764 --> 00:28:27,468
you are actually creating
massive rejection.
642
00:28:27,814 --> 00:28:29,680
I can imagine why the perceived glamour
643
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,760
and excitement of fighting
might attract young men.
644
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,640
But I can't understand
why young women would
645
00:28:34,641 --> 00:28:36,480
want to leave the UK
646
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,640
and join an extremist
organisation like
647
00:28:38,641 --> 00:28:40,789
the Islamic state in Syria.
648
00:28:41,221 --> 00:28:43,640
So Alyas introduced me to Yasmin.
649
00:28:43,791 --> 00:28:46,880
Years ago, she joined an
extremist group in the UK.
650
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,268
Although I find these groups
to be deeply misogynist,
651
00:28:50,291 --> 00:28:52,400
she said she found it a liberation.
652
00:28:52,846 --> 00:28:56,400
This was a group where, again,
we wanted to make history.
653
00:28:56,729 --> 00:29:01,120
Our message, our visibility
was powerful at that time.
654
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,200
You know, saying that women were
part of this great structure.
655
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,040
If I look at myself at that
time, it was just, like,
656
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,720
everyone was disgusting,
everything was dirty.
657
00:29:09,916 --> 00:29:13,056
We portrayed this or termed
this as being the kuffar system,
658
00:29:13,067 --> 00:29:14,713
the dirty kuffar system.
659
00:29:14,913 --> 00:29:16,303
She says, one day,
660
00:29:16,314 --> 00:29:17,240
something happened
661
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,240
which made her realise how
extreme she had become.
662
00:29:20,588 --> 00:29:22,088
I think the striking thing was
663
00:29:22,099 --> 00:29:23,938
when I was called in at school
664
00:29:23,949 --> 00:29:28,220
and the teacher said to me that,
"Oh, we'd like to chat to you."
665
00:29:28,231 --> 00:29:29,840
And I said, "OK, what's the matter?"
666
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:31,310
And she goes, "Look, I
know you're good people."
667
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:32,127
I said, "What's happened?"
668
00:29:32,138 --> 00:29:34,752
She said, "Well, you
know, your child came up
669
00:29:34,763 --> 00:29:38,439
and said that it's OK for us to
kill, you know, non-Muslims."
670
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,160
And I thought, "Oh, my God.
What is happening here?"
671
00:29:42,588 --> 00:29:43,840
She started to find her way
672
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,775
out of the extremist group
and their mind-set.
673
00:29:46,869 --> 00:29:49,530
But I still wanted to
know why had she joined
674
00:29:49,541 --> 00:29:50,840
in the first place.
675
00:29:51,044 --> 00:29:54,104
Yasmin told me that, before
she joined the extremists,
676
00:29:54,143 --> 00:29:56,440
she had been the
victim of sexual abuse.
677
00:29:56,955 --> 00:29:59,202
She says she reported
it to the police,
678
00:29:59,213 --> 00:30:01,840
but the case was dropped
for lack of evidence.
679
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,960
So imagine that,
the hurt that I felt,
680
00:30:03,961 --> 00:30:06,040
the hate that I felt.
681
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,760
Not only that the criminal justice system
had also let me down
682
00:30:08,771 --> 00:30:10,476
Because my case didn't
go through court.
683
00:30:10,487 --> 00:30:12,200
You are by yourself.
684
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,233
You know, you've got to carry all
those issues into your life.
685
00:30:15,244 --> 00:30:16,720
Where do you get the justice?
686
00:30:17,049 --> 00:30:19,760
I wanted to see implementation
of the Islamic State,
687
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,200
to see my perpetrator, to be
accountable for what he did.
688
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:24,920
My innocence was executed.
689
00:30:25,077 --> 00:30:29,619
I wanted him to be... to
see the pleasure of him
690
00:30:29,630 --> 00:30:32,010
being executed in
front of my very eyes.
691
00:30:32,299 --> 00:30:33,900
I asked Yasmin what she would
692
00:30:33,901 --> 00:30:36,120
say to her 20-year-old self.
693
00:30:36,439 --> 00:30:39,322
Girl, you just got to
have a mind of your own.
694
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,760
Be critical, don't let
anyone brainwash you.
695
00:30:43,041 --> 00:30:45,764
OK. No matter what.
I love this saying,
696
00:30:45,775 --> 00:30:48,627
"The choices we make dictates
the life that we lead."
697
00:30:49,205 --> 00:30:52,014
Islam is a way living
and not a way of death.
698
00:30:52,447 --> 00:30:53,785
Do you think Yasmin
would have listened to you?
699
00:30:53,795 --> 00:30:55,400
Nah.
700
00:30:55,411 --> 00:30:59,361
She'd be like, "Whatever." I'd probably
smack her ennit, around the head.
701
00:31:00,291 --> 00:31:02,920
Yasmin is now using the
benefit of her experience
702
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,400
to help young women out
of extremism or abuse.
703
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,710
I was learning more and more
to get beyond the caricature
704
00:31:09,721 --> 00:31:11,440
of angry extremists,
705
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,768
to find the human reality
which lies beneath it.
706
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,627
I found out that one of Alyas' causes
707
00:31:18,638 --> 00:31:21,838
is to get the Muslim community
to be more open about
708
00:31:21,849 --> 00:31:23,929
the issue of sex for young people.
709
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:25,440
When it comes to sex,
710
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,160
who do you talk to about sex then?
711
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,360
Are you going to talk to
your mum and dad about it?
712
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:30,800
- No.
- Highly unlikely.
713
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,480
Are you going to talk
to your imam about it?
714
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:35,596
Getting further away.
715
00:31:35,607 --> 00:31:37,647
Even more less likely.
Even in school,
716
00:31:37,658 --> 00:31:39,418
you're uncomfortable
with the whole thing
717
00:31:39,454 --> 00:31:41,574
because you have been
told at home that,
718
00:31:41,585 --> 00:31:42,985
you know, these are not our values.
719
00:31:42,996 --> 00:31:45,636
So already there's a
discomfort there...
720
00:31:46,408 --> 00:31:48,469
OK, because you feel that...
721
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,880
But talking about sex is a very important
thing and having guidance on that.
722
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:53,600
Where do you get the guidance from?
723
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,640
I asked him about it later.
724
00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,260
You know what, I was talking to my
wife this morning and I said...
725
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,320
"You know... I said,"
This is all about sex.
726
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,160
This is all really, everything
comes back to basics."
727
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,040
And she said,
"You can't say that, though."
728
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,320
But I said,
"This is it, these guys just want girls.
729
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,950
That's all they want.
"She's says," You can't say that, though,
730
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,360
'cause you're going to get
really lambasted for it."
731
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,835
Guys do things for girls.
And that's it.
732
00:32:18,846 --> 00:32:20,600
I'm there with my gun,
which is more or less
733
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,608
just a penis extension, out there.
734
00:32:22,619 --> 00:32:23,840
It is! Out there,
735
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,680
look at me, I got my gear
on and I always say,
736
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:28,240
"You want to do it, dress up.
737
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,200
If you want to dress up
go dress up somewhere
738
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,960
and, you know, do all that
macho dress up stuff.
739
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,072
You know, but..."
740
00:32:34,083 --> 00:32:37,686
OK, but really, you know,
741
00:32:37,697 --> 00:32:39,429
it's a serious point.
742
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,880
It is a serious point,
because if you grow up
743
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,577
and you are brought up with this value
that you cannot have sex before marriage.
744
00:32:45,588 --> 00:32:47,080
That you cannot have a girlfriend.
745
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:48,960
That you cannot be, in any way,
746
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,280
this is something which is very big.
747
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,240
Haram. Very big prohibition
for an individual.
748
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,843
Then you're growing up
in a sexualised society.
749
00:32:56,854 --> 00:32:58,400
There's a real sense
of hate that you have
750
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,320
that, I can't do this,
and that's why I find
751
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,280
greater sexual dysfunction
sometimes in Muslim communities
752
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:04,760
as a result of that.
753
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,760
Now I'm a powerless
person who's no one.
754
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,600
I'm never... I'm not even considered.
755
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,270
I don't even think I'm
good looking, you know.
756
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,960
And who...
and no girls looking at me.
757
00:33:13,299 --> 00:33:15,880
But you know what, I'm a mujahid now.
758
00:33:16,104 --> 00:33:19,929
I'm there with my gun,
I'm powerful now. I'm sexy now.
759
00:33:20,158 --> 00:33:22,033
Girls are going to look
at me, and there's girls who
760
00:33:22,044 --> 00:33:24,152
will want to become
my bride now.
761
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,200
In the end, I want to know
762
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,440
how people come out of the cycle
of extremism and violence.
763
00:33:30,603 --> 00:33:32,088
Is there any hope?
764
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,760
People I met who'd embraced
extremism in the past
765
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,163
told me they'd now
renounced their views.
766
00:33:37,174 --> 00:33:40,520
Even Abu Muntasir, one of the
godfathers of the British jihad,
767
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,200
eventually left violent extremism.
768
00:33:43,518 --> 00:33:45,349
I asked him how it happened.
769
00:33:45,518 --> 00:33:49,280
He told me that even while he was
fighting throughout the 1990s,
770
00:33:49,349 --> 00:33:51,549
He was starting to form doubts.
771
00:33:51,705 --> 00:33:53,320
Often it seemed to him,
772
00:33:53,557 --> 00:33:56,520
that instead of defending
Muslims against non-believers,
773
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,000
they were actually
fighting other Muslims.
774
00:33:59,314 --> 00:34:01,880
And again and again, he
encountered corruption
775
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,160
and power battles amongst
the Mujahideen leaders.
776
00:34:05,549 --> 00:34:08,560
He says it all came to a
head on his last jihad.
777
00:34:08,838 --> 00:34:11,160
He went to fight in Burma,
thinking he would be
778
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,760
defending the minority
Muslim population,
779
00:34:13,947 --> 00:34:15,891
against a repressive government.
780
00:34:15,932 --> 00:34:17,580
I saw the corruption in the sense
781
00:34:17,581 --> 00:34:19,600
that how we would...
782
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,200
the commanders of the upper echelons
783
00:34:22,201 --> 00:34:25,041
would have privileged diet.
784
00:34:25,229 --> 00:34:26,280
We are raising money here.
785
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,120
�100,000 at a go or
something like that,
786
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,320
�50,000 cash we're giving
to the Mujahedeen.
787
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,280
Half the money is going
to the commander's son,
788
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,900
studying a degree course in
Malaysia to pay for his fees.
789
00:34:39,939 --> 00:34:43,499
We are justifying it, saying,
"Well, you have to support the commanders.
790
00:34:43,510 --> 00:34:45,560
Without them how can
the fight carry on?"
791
00:34:45,889 --> 00:34:49,760
And nobody asks you,
"Why does the fight have to carry on?"
792
00:35:03,581 --> 00:35:07,883
The one story that
affects me the most...
793
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:12,804
concerning Burma,
794
00:35:12,815 --> 00:35:16,363
is in the jungles when
I met two brothers.
795
00:35:18,156 --> 00:35:19,956
Thirteen years old.
796
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,247
I tried to visualise
my son and daughter
797
00:35:36,258 --> 00:35:38,338
in the same position.
798
00:35:41,084 --> 00:35:43,804
It's not the suffering
of being in the jungle
799
00:35:43,966 --> 00:35:47,372
and living in the dirt
and eating poor food,
800
00:35:48,794 --> 00:35:51,120
it's the idea and
the picture of them,
801
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,400
my son and daughter,
carrying guns to be maimed
802
00:35:55,440 --> 00:36:01,160
or blown up at the behest
of leaders and commanders
803
00:36:01,386 --> 00:36:06,653
who fight for a false ideal
and an unwinnable war.
804
00:36:09,707 --> 00:36:11,987
And those two boys came to me.
805
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,420
My children may want
to not go to school
806
00:36:19,421 --> 00:36:21,440
and run away from homework.
807
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,185
They came to me, and they begged me
808
00:36:25,564 --> 00:36:27,966
to take them with me
809
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,760
and they said they were not lying,
810
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,005
you can tell when people are lying.
811
00:36:34,016 --> 00:36:38,903
Thirteen-year-olds telling me,
"I just want to go to school."
812
00:36:43,256 --> 00:36:46,176
We can make the
difference and we didn't.
813
00:36:53,618 --> 00:36:59,200
I'd rather live as slaves and
have my kids go to school.
814
00:36:59,864 --> 00:37:04,200
I don't want this false...
What is this honour?
815
00:37:06,365 --> 00:37:08,599
I am happy to be a coward.
816
00:37:22,799 --> 00:37:25,081
Perhaps they are not alive today.
817
00:37:25,426 --> 00:37:30,026
Already dead because very soon
after that was the next meeting.
818
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,040
And the commander lined up
all the platoon commanders,
819
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,229
there's eight in a platoon,
and about 20 platoons
820
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:38,644
were lined up.
821
00:37:39,284 --> 00:37:42,044
The average age is about 15.
822
00:37:42,609 --> 00:37:46,320
And these two 13-year-olds were
carrying grenade launchers,
823
00:37:46,565 --> 00:37:49,010
machine guns, you know 13-year-olds.
824
00:37:49,757 --> 00:37:54,674
And I'm over 40 years old. Dad of 12.
825
00:37:56,712 --> 00:38:00,409
Still living,
still smiling, going to parks.
826
00:38:01,652 --> 00:38:05,807
And if I can, I should die to
give them a chance for peace.
827
00:38:06,718 --> 00:38:09,405
And I didn't.
So I withdrew completely.
828
00:38:09,416 --> 00:38:11,643
But the commander lined us all up,
829
00:38:11,659 --> 00:38:12,946
platoon commanders,
830
00:38:12,957 --> 00:38:15,828
and he made a special
point to look at me.
831
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,820
And he was saying a speech,
oh, they'd just come back
832
00:38:18,821 --> 00:38:21,010
from a conflict and they have...
833
00:38:22,677 --> 00:38:26,096
Two of our boys got killed,
so on our side, two young,
834
00:38:26,107 --> 00:38:29,141
those 13, 14-year-olds were killed.
835
00:38:29,971 --> 00:38:31,240
Why were they killed?
836
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,520
Because they belonged to
the wrong organisation.
837
00:38:35,031 --> 00:38:37,366
Because the people
who killed our boys
838
00:38:37,385 --> 00:38:39,720
were a rival Muslim organisation
839
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:41,840
fighting for the same
cause, for the same people.
840
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,338
So once again, Muslim against Muslim.
841
00:38:45,539 --> 00:38:48,846
I said, "Yeah, this is what
we are for, what am I doing?"
842
00:38:49,401 --> 00:38:52,323
We all talk about jihad
and idealism and stuff.
843
00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:56,520
He looked at me and said,
"And so and so.
844
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,960
Mr. so and so is our enemy."
845
00:38:59,307 --> 00:39:04,120
and telling all these 20
times eight, 160-200 people,
846
00:39:04,534 --> 00:39:06,880
you have to learn to kill
your rival organisation
847
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,480
because they have killed your people.
848
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,120
Creating hatred and enmity
amongst each other,
849
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,680
while the Burmese soldiers
are happy in their camps,
850
00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:17,018
the Burmese government
couldn't care at all.
851
00:39:17,355 --> 00:39:20,728
And we are in the jungles,
not giving peace a chance
852
00:39:21,213 --> 00:39:23,600
and just want to be
supported in our jihad.
853
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,042
What jihad, I don't know,
it's not jihad at all.
854
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:28,800
And in Britain, even mention this,
855
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:30,800
about jihad and they will jump up.
856
00:39:30,869 --> 00:39:33,589
Women might give their
jewellery in support of jihad
857
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,760
and men will want to go and
fight and they will say,
858
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,480
you are a coward, or you
have lost your faith,
859
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,480
or you have become a sellout.
860
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:42,229
It's fine.
861
00:39:43,502 --> 00:39:45,090
The short life will pass.
862
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:46,720
You will die. You may or may not
863
00:39:46,750 --> 00:39:48,349
meet your lord.
864
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,971
I think I will. And then we'll see.
865
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,487
Anyway, that's when I stopped
this whole foolishness.
866
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:01,560
I had been trying to find out
867
00:40:01,561 --> 00:40:03,370
why people become radical,
868
00:40:03,602 --> 00:40:06,190
and if there is a way
out of this madness.
869
00:40:06,893 --> 00:40:08,580
I had met Munir, too.
870
00:40:09,123 --> 00:40:13,065
As a teenager, he said he'd wanted
to kill and to die as a martyr,
871
00:40:13,354 --> 00:40:15,320
and now, just like Abu Muntasir,
872
00:40:15,331 --> 00:40:17,240
he says he's realised
the real reasons
873
00:40:17,241 --> 00:40:19,120
that he became an extremist.
874
00:40:19,549 --> 00:40:23,040
For me, coming to terms
with my physical state
875
00:40:23,331 --> 00:40:26,917
has been the greatest realisation I've
known as a human being on this earth.
876
00:40:27,502 --> 00:40:30,400
For me to be able to accept
that I don't need to be ashamed
877
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,400
of how I look,
and I don't need society
878
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,338
to tell me that I don't
need to be ashamed.
879
00:40:35,535 --> 00:40:38,963
My greatest jihad was, back
then, coming to terms with me.
880
00:40:39,468 --> 00:40:41,388
My greatest jihad,
even today, is still
881
00:40:41,570 --> 00:40:43,091
coming to terms with me.
882
00:40:43,276 --> 00:40:45,040
And it sparked a journey of discovery
883
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,852
and realisation that I've
carried forward for 18 years.
884
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,280
He now works to
de-radicalise other young people,
885
00:40:53,350 --> 00:40:55,270
and explores issues
of pain and identity
886
00:40:55,281 --> 00:40:57,400
through art and poetry.
887
00:40:57,951 --> 00:41:01,080
Usama, once a bookish
19-year-old who went to jihad
888
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,280
with Abu Muntasir in Afghanistan,
889
00:41:03,397 --> 00:41:07,397
is now an Imam in London who
preaches moderation and tolerance.
890
00:41:07,850 --> 00:41:09,311
And as for Alyas,
891
00:41:09,451 --> 00:41:12,651
I asked him what he feels now about Abu Muntasir,
892
00:41:13,037 --> 00:41:14,880
the man who led him into extremism,
893
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,600
and to whom he gave the
best years of his life.
894
00:41:17,819 --> 00:41:19,080
Do you forgive him?
895
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:20,600
Of course, I forgive him, yeah.
896
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,240
You know, it was just, you know...
897
00:41:24,553 --> 00:41:27,651
You've got to realise we
were all, even Abu Muntasir,
898
00:41:27,662 --> 00:41:29,147
we were all young.
899
00:41:30,574 --> 00:41:32,014
And we were foolish.
900
00:41:32,303 --> 00:41:35,385
And we didn't have the whole picture.
That was it.
901
00:41:35,396 --> 00:41:37,417
So I think we've just
got to realise that.
902
00:41:37,428 --> 00:41:41,241
I can look back and I say, you
know, this was just, you know,
903
00:41:41,252 --> 00:41:42,932
of course, with hindsight we can say,
904
00:41:42,943 --> 00:41:44,973
I should have done this and
I should have done that,
905
00:41:45,394 --> 00:41:47,874
but the reality is that we
were just young and foolish.
906
00:41:47,951 --> 00:41:50,760
We have to forgive and
the forgiveness is,
907
00:41:50,811 --> 00:41:54,678
you could say, also supported
by the fact that people
908
00:41:54,694 --> 00:41:56,200
try to make amends,
909
00:41:56,396 --> 00:42:01,428
you know, and try to redress
the damage that they've done.
910
00:42:02,248 --> 00:42:04,840
In September last
year, Saeed and his brother
911
00:42:04,851 --> 00:42:07,531
were told they wouldn't
have to face a retrial
912
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,760
Saeed was given a suspended
sentence of 22 months
913
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,840
for the offences he did admit,
and his brother 15 months.
914
00:42:15,061 --> 00:42:17,842
Their cousin was given
16 years in prison.
915
00:42:18,506 --> 00:42:20,764
Many of the men and women
I have met had embraced
916
00:42:20,775 --> 00:42:24,366
a stronger Islamic identity
as a way of expressing anger.
917
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,120
Everyone is different.
918
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,373
Not all Muslims feel alienated
919
00:42:31,757 --> 00:42:34,607
and the majority of
Muslims reject extremism.
920
00:42:35,687 --> 00:42:38,847
And the two men I met in
Birmingham, Sabeel and Waseem,
921
00:42:38,858 --> 00:42:42,200
told me that adopting Islam was a
way of becoming a better person.
922
00:42:42,358 --> 00:42:45,560
All it's done for me and my life
is made me a better person.
923
00:42:45,701 --> 00:42:47,360
It's made me a nicer person.
924
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,320
It's sorted out the
relationship problems
925
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,320
that I was having between
me and my parents.
926
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,800
It's sorted out the problems
that I was having between,
927
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,040
you know, friends and being
in the right crowds.
928
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,480
It's sorted out me
making a legal living.
929
00:42:58,491 --> 00:43:02,000
I used to be dangerous.
I used to be dangerous,
930
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,880
but all of us, you know,
now we're nicer people.
931
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:06,990
You wouldn't have this interview
with me, we wouldn't be sitting here
932
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:08,800
Talking to you four years ago,
trust me.
933
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,440
If we knew that you're
coming into our area
934
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,120
and you've got those
expensive cameras.
935
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,040
We're going to find a
way to take 'em off ya.
936
00:43:15,265 --> 00:43:17,505
We ain't going to sit here
and talk to you about,
937
00:43:17,826 --> 00:43:19,358
you know, about anything.
938
00:43:19,369 --> 00:43:20,709
Or they'll be coming out of
Lahore's at 5:00 o'clock.
939
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,120
Yeah...
sneaky one, make the phone call,
940
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:24,880
that's how it would happen.
941
00:43:25,451 --> 00:43:27,647
But, yo, it's made us, Alhamdulillah.
942
00:43:27,658 --> 00:43:30,209
- It's made us better people.
- Definitely.
943
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:32,440
Why on the news are you
always picking the guy
944
00:43:32,441 --> 00:43:34,287
that looks the angriest?
945
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:36,710
We're not angry. I'm not angry.
I'm a happy person.
946
00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:38,360
Come and speak to me, I'll smile,
947
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,640
you know, I'll do the
same things that you do.
948
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,360
I'm just as British as
anybody else, you know.
949
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,280
Why do you think I'm
angry at the world?
950
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,680
Like, you know, why do you
always pick that one person
951
00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:50,440
to go on the news that's always angry
at everybody else?
952
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,160
Maybe he's got some personal problems
953
00:43:52,161 --> 00:43:53,840
that he's not happy about.
954
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:55,826
You know, he can't represent me.
955
00:43:58,222 --> 00:43:59,662
During the 18 months
956
00:43:59,673 --> 00:44:01,112
I spent making this film,
957
00:44:01,123 --> 00:44:03,360
even my own friends were sceptical.
958
00:44:03,764 --> 00:44:06,338
They said I shouldn't try
to understand extremists.
959
00:44:06,349 --> 00:44:08,309
They said they are just monsters,
960
00:44:08,576 --> 00:44:11,080
that they are throwing away
comfortable lives in the West
961
00:44:11,091 --> 00:44:13,891
and we should just let them
go and kill themselves.
962
00:44:14,389 --> 00:44:16,440
But here is I what I have learned.
963
00:44:16,519 --> 00:44:19,803
I came to understand that
radicalisation is about pain.
964
00:44:20,451 --> 00:44:22,800
It's the pain of young
people, facing racism,
965
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:24,780
exclusion from society,
isolation from
966
00:44:24,781 --> 00:44:26,720
the opposite sex,
967
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,400
overwhelming pressure from
families and communities,
968
00:44:29,725 --> 00:44:33,459
a crisis of identity and feeling
powerless and insignificant.
969
00:44:34,094 --> 00:44:36,894
Yes, many of them have
material comforts,
970
00:44:36,905 --> 00:44:40,623
but I believe too many of them
lead lives of emotional poverty.
971
00:44:41,030 --> 00:44:43,440
And what I also found
is that people can
972
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,397
come out of extremism and
rebuild their lives.
973
00:44:46,686 --> 00:44:48,740
So I said to my friends,
"There is hope
974
00:44:48,741 --> 00:44:50,826
and we shouldn't give up.
975
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,480
We need to look
beyond what divides us
976
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:57,826
and come together to create a
society where we all belong."
977
00:45:01,609 --> 00:45:05,069
I ended up where I started,
with Abu Muntasir.
978
00:45:05,389 --> 00:45:07,040
Since he renounced extremism,
979
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:08,520
he has become a moderate voice
980
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:10,240
in the British Muslim community,
981
00:45:10,252 --> 00:45:12,960
doing interfaith work and
promoting a tolerant
982
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,469
and compassionate
expression of Islam.
983
00:45:15,627 --> 00:45:18,160
I asked him if he thinks he
will be forgiven for the harm
984
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,360
That he did in his extremist days.
985
00:45:20,673 --> 00:45:22,480
Why am I not arrested, I don't know.
986
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,652
I hope I'm not arrested because I
want to do much good in society.
987
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,420
I want to educate people.
I want to tell others
988
00:45:29,431 --> 00:45:34,392
how to be better in being
at home in your community.
989
00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:36,240
And if you don't want to do that,
990
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,373
people decide it's not worth it,
they are too nervous,
991
00:45:39,384 --> 00:45:42,920
do what you want,
it's legal, just, fair.
992
00:45:43,158 --> 00:45:46,280
I have my reward with God, whether
you kill me or let me live,
993
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,680
I want to die with
a clean conscience.
994
00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:50,791
And that's what Islam is about.
995
00:45:50,874 --> 00:45:53,034
Do you think you should be forgiven?
996
00:45:53,767 --> 00:45:55,798
Do you feel you should be forgiven?
997
00:45:56,363 --> 00:45:59,520
If I've done those things which
have terribly upset people
998
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:01,798
or hurt people, I should be forgiven.
999
00:46:01,809 --> 00:46:03,689
I should forgive others as well.
1000
00:46:04,030 --> 00:46:06,275
Don't forget that for me, personally,
1001
00:46:07,070 --> 00:46:09,016
I had my elder brother killed.
1002
00:46:09,095 --> 00:46:11,360
I have forgiven.
I have truly forgiven,
1003
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,631
I will embrace, I will shake hands.
1004
00:46:13,642 --> 00:46:15,240
I will work with my murderers...
1005
00:46:15,241 --> 00:46:17,408
my brother's murderers,
1006
00:46:17,439 --> 00:46:19,092
hand in hand. Even if my mother
1007
00:46:19,103 --> 00:46:20,640
cries at my feet and says,
1008
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,440
"Son, what are you doing?
He killed your brother."
1009
00:46:23,517 --> 00:46:26,360
I will say, "No, Mum. I am a Muslim,
1010
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,212
I have forgiven, God will judge."
1011
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,244
I cannot hate. Hate is not what
1012
00:46:32,512 --> 00:46:35,048
Mohammed taught.
1013
00:46:35,244 --> 00:46:37,345
Salla llahu walay-hi
wa-alehe-wa-sallam.
1014
00:46:37,775 --> 00:46:40,892
I have been forgiven, I will forgive.
That's the least I can do.
1015
00:46:41,054 --> 00:46:43,334
You have a right to punish
me if you think that's fair.
1016
00:46:43,444 --> 00:46:45,364
I will take it on.
1017
00:46:49,300 --> 00:46:51,460
Have you forgiven yourself?
1018
00:48:25,008 --> 00:48:26,832
How do I look?
1019
00:48:30,532 --> 00:48:32,332
Let's continue.
1020
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:37,520
I don't know.
1021
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,688
How do you answer that?
85829
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