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my next guest that he hasn't
already paid himself.

-(audience laughs)
-But I, uh...

-(applauding)
-I happily join him and millions
of others, and, um...

He's without a doubt one of
the greatest sports figures
the world has ever known.

Just in case he can hear me,
he is the world's greatest
sports figure.

Charming, good-looking,
a heck of a nice guy,

can't sing worth a damn,
but he's really big and strong--

Mr. Muhammad Ali.

Muhammad Ali...
Mr. Muhammad Ali...
Muhammad Ali...

Ladies and gentlemen,
welcome Muhammad Ali.

Welcome the incredible
Muhammad Ali... Muhammad Ali.

Howard Cosell's humility coach,
Muhammad Ali.

♪ ♪

He's on Dick Cavett's
show so many times,

and has an intriguing
and, I think, revealing
relationship at times

in terms of the conversations
with Dick Cavett.

I love your show
and I like your style,

-but your pay is so cheap,
I won't be back for a while.
-(audience laughs)

He was great,
but it was instinctive.

He didn't need media coaching.

You and Johnny Carson:
Johnny's still nice, but you,

-(audience laughing)
-you...

you are one who is so--
You're like a little schoolboy,

you're so innocent,
you're so nice,

and lately,
you getting kind of tricky.

Ali was always my friend.

From the moment we met,
we hit it off.

If you look at me,
I'm pretty for a boxer.

Cavett:
You really get a kick
out of yourself.

-Shaving must be practically
an orgasm for you.
-(audience laughing)

Oh, hey!
Now, listen!

That was important in showing

Ali as being this
intuitively playful,
very clever showman.

See, most boxers
can't talk like this,
they're not as intelligent.

You're a witty man. They pay
you to sit up here and think.

You're a brain.
I'm handling you.

-I know. You...
-(audience laughs)

He would say things
to Cavett about whites

that you'd hear on
the street corners of Harlem.

The thing that you
all have done to us

is worse than the devil
you told us about underground.

They seem to go to the edge

of the racial debate
in the country.

It doesn't really get us
very far to talk about something

as if the white man were
some sort of intrinsic devil

-that no other race is.
-Ali: That's the truth.

You are right.
What you said was the truth.

I can get very sentimental

talking about Ali
and thinking about him.

-One of the best shows
you've ever had, boy.
-Cavett: Yes.

(laughter, applause)

♪ ♪

Announcer:
Ladies and gentlemen,
Dick Cavett!

(theme song playing)

Dick Cavett was huge
on television.

This was before you had

cable news all the time
and talk shows everywhere.

You keep interrupting
the long story of my life.

If you'd just shut up...

Sharpton:
Dick Cavett was one of
the few big talk show guys,

and he would have
Muhammad Ali on.

-I mean, it would be,
you know, very provocative...
-(punching hand)

...but at the same time,
they seemed to like each other.

And he was on a lot.
I mean, he was constantly on,

and it was some of
the most memorable times
I remember on television.

I remember watching Dick Cavett

and Ali, to the point
where you wanted to see it

if you knew that
Ali was coming on.

I went to see Gorgeous George,
the late wrestler.

He was on television one night
in Las Vegas,

just before I was
supposed to fight a fight.

I saw this blond-haired
white fella.

(in gruff voice):
"I'm the greatest
wrestler that ever lived!

"After me, there'll
come no more!

"I want all of you bums in this
one-horse town to buy a ticket!

"If that arena's not full,
I won't come!

You're blessed!
You're lucky that you see me!"

And I hear him
talking so much.

"I'll annihilate him!
If this guy mess my hair up,

a curl in my hair,
I'll kill him!"
And he was so conceited.

Before I started talking,
I went to see him.

And that night,
Las Vegas Convention Center,

I saw 15 more thousand
people coming to see him.

And when he walked out,
he had girls carrying his robe

and sprayed deodorant
in his opponent's corner.

He was really cocky,
and everybody, "Boo!

Boo!" And they just couldn't
stand him, but I noticed,

-they all paid to get in.
-(laughter, applause)

And I said all these people,
all these people paid
to see him whipped.

I said,
this is a good idea.

If he wants me, you tell
this to your camera,

your TV man, your radio man,

and you right there,
and the whole world...

That's where I started
"I am the greatest!
I am the prettiest!"

Oh, and they paid,
and I went to the bank.

-One million,
two million, three million.
-(audience laughs)

So, that's how
the thing started.

There were other
television boxers,

boxers who appeared
on television,

and they fought,
and they were tough,

and people loved
to watch them on TV.

Ali was the first product
of the television age.

You know that
I wrote for you once.

Uh-uh.

-(audience laughs)
-You don't?
That doesn't ring a bell?

-No. You wrote for me?
-Cavett: Wrote for you, yes.

I once wrote a couple
of poems for you

uh, when you appeared
on The Jerry Lewis Show.

Remember appearing on
The Jerry Lewis Show?

-Vaguely, yes.
-Cavett (laughing):
Oh, yes.

-Pretty tough, Jerry.
You're really...
-(laughing): Hey, hey, don't.

The Jerry Lewis Show
was where I first met
the great man.

-Come on.
Read the poem, Cassius!
-Jerry, hey, what, what--

Right over there,
if you'll step over there.

-You mean you have
a special setup for me?
-It's all set up for you.

So I wrote a couple of poems
for him, and they staged him

in a sort of classic
Greek or Roman setting.

Reminds me of
the Olympics in Rome, Italy.

And he did them beautifully
and perfectly, and, uh...

He was much smarter
than he led on.

Now for the main event.

To my friend, Jerry.

Jerry Lewis, this is to you.

I actually made a joke
about the fact that

the show was going
to be... terminated.

To my friend Mr. Lewis,

that magnificent clown,

who remains at the top,

though his show has gone down.

(audience laughing)

Though the critics gave him
an unfriendly reception,

no one wins all the time,

though I am an exception.

(audience laughing)

When he's old and senile,

he still will be funny,

laying folks in the aisle,

just like I will do Sonny.

(audience applauding)

Hauser:
He intuitively understood

television, and TV was
the perfect medium for him.

Roberts:
That's what Ali was about.

He was a television boxer.

He knew how to be outrageous.

He knew how to be serious.

He knew how
to change personalities...

-(snaps)
-...in a drop of a hat.

The personality attracts.

I attract the doctors,
the lawyers,

-the pimps, the players,
and I attract...
-(audience laughing)

...the Pakistanis,
I attract the rednecks

that don't like niggas
that talk like me.

-(laughter)
-I attract, I attract

-the Black Panthers that
like bad niggas like me.
-(laughter)

And I attract
the Jesus Christ Superstar

followers that
don't like the draft.

And you add it all up,
I draw the people!

(crowd cheering, whistling)

Announcer:
It's a TKO decision
for Cassius Clay.

At the time I started,
I was 12 years old,

and I started in Louisville,
Kentucky, as an amateur boxer

in the Golden Glove,
and I went on to win

the National Golden Gloves title

'59 and '60, the national AAU

in '59 and '60, and the
World Olympic Gold Medal.

Tell me how you came to get
such a Roman name as that.

Well, as I understand,
I'm Cassius Marcellus Clay VI,

and my great-great-grandfather
was a Kentucky slave,

and he was named after
some great Kentuckian.

Cassius Marcellus Clay is
a great name in Kentucky.

Cassius Clay is not

the man that's known
to history at that point.

Thousands and thousands
of athletes

at the Olympics in Rome,

and this big personality

emerged as the star
of the Olympics.

And it was Cassius Clay,

a light heavyweight
who won the gold medal.

But he is totally
unsophisticated

and totally unsure of himself,

and his relationship,
not only to white America,

but his relationship
to black America.

He went overseas.
He's wide-eyed.

He's bright. He's excited.

He's talking to everybody.

He's a front man
for the United States!

When a Russian
reporter asked him,

"Isn't it hard,
the civil rights movement,

"isn't it hard to find
a place to eat?

Isn't it terrible being
a black man in America?"

Cassius Marcellus Clay
said, "Oh yes.

"Sometimes it's hard
to find places to eat.

But don't worry,
we've got experts
working on that."

When he was outraged as a child

that he could win the Olympics,

uh, but couldn't eat
in a restaurant
in his native Louisville,

it gave him a sense of
"I wanna fight this."

And I wanted to go
in the restaurant

with the gold medal on
to see what would happen.

And I just ordered a hamburger.

-This is a white restaurant?
-Yeah.

Had my gold medal on,
just won the Olympics.

I knew that I'm not
gonna get put out now.

Got them on the spot.

And... two hamburgers.

And they look and,

"We don't serve Negroes."

I said, "I will eat immediately!
Give me two hamburgers!"

-(audience laughing)
-She said...

She said...

"You can't eat here."
So she went in the back.

-Cavett: Yeah?
-And I says,

"I'm Cassius Clay,
the Olympic champion."

And she went back and told
some cook back there cooking.

He said, "I don't give a damn
who he is. He don't eat here."

I remember as a kid going to see
his fight with Liston,

closed circuit
at a theater in Brooklyn.

Everybody thought Liston
was gonna destroy him.

That Liston fight no one
will ever forget, I'm sure.

Even if they only saw
the still photo of him...
plopped back in the corner.

Liston was supposed to be
destroyer of people,

of men, the best
heavyweight around.

He was knocking guys down
with jabs in those days.

Knocked guys'
teeth out with a jab.

And everybody, you know,

would cringe at the thought of
maybe getting in with this guy.

Now we're getting criticized
because gonna kill
this poor kid.

This bouncing baby

-that doesn't look like he could
fight, who rears and pulls...
-Cavett: Up against the bear.

...can't lick nobody
against that big ugly bear,
which were--

Well, this went on for months.

I paid five dollars and sat up
in the second balcony,

and then watched
my hero vanquish

the big ugly bear, Sonny Liston,
and I couldn't believe it.

Ali was a big
underdog to Liston.

Everybody thought
he's just this loudmouth.

They wanted to see
his mouth shut.

Most people,
especially I noticed

white people, seemed
to despise this guy

'cause he was
so cocky, so loud.

♪ ♪

He, uh, felt a obligation
to uplift blacks,

and he saw the Nation of Islam
as a vehicle to do it.

Cassius Clay is a name
no more, is that right?

Yes, sir.
It's Muhammad Ali.

Muhammad means
"worthy of all praises,"

and Ali means "most high"
in Asian, African language.

The day after Cassius Clay
beat Sonny Liston,

he stated publicly what
many people already knew,

that he was a member
of the Nation of Islam.

And within two weeks
of that fight,

he changed his name
to Muhammad Ali.

-Was there anybody special
who gave you the name?
-Yes, sir.

My leader and teacher,
the most Honorable
Elijah Muhammad.

Clarence Taylor:
He doesn't bother giving
him the name Cassius X.

When many people come
in to the Nation of Islam,
they receive an X

before they are given
their Islamic name.

Um, but Muhammad Ali is
given this name right away.

But it wasn't Sunni Islam.
It was the Nation of Islam.

It was something separate.

Remember, the Nation is...

"We're not part of America.

We're a separatist
organization."

The Nation of Islam
didn't recruit

like Harvard or Yale
or Princeton.

The Nation of Islam was
very good at recruiting

working-class African-Americans
in particular,

and, also, attracting people
who were in prison.

In fact, Elijah Muhammad
came out of prison.

Malcolm X came out
of prison and jails.

And that makes sense because
many of those folks are

at their lowest
position in prisons.

You know, there are a lot of
guys in the Nation of Islam

who had very
lengthy rap sheets.

There are significant
differences

between the Nation of Islam
and orthodox Islam.

The Nation of Islam
preached that

white people were devils
created by an evil scientist

with a big head,
named Mr. Yakub,

and that at a given
point in time,

there was a spaceship
manned by black gunners

that would descend on Earth

and destroy all
but the righteous.

We could go back into
Elijah Muhammad's madness

and craziness about it,
spaceships and all the rest,

but... here is Cassius Clay

suddenly finding
identity in a way

that it has escaped him before,
and comfort in America

as a proud black person,
and not as a secondary,

an inferior,
or someone who's...

trying to climb some ladder.

Hauser:
There was a very negative

media reaction.

Reporter:
Cassius, did the bus trip
take anything out of you,

and was it worth
the $1,800 it cost you?

Muhammad. My name is Muhammad.
Y'all keep calling me Cassius.

I'm tired of telling you.
You know, you're intelligent.

My name is Muhammad Ali,
not Cassius.

Eighteen hundred dollars
is nothing to me.

I make-- I draw
seven million dollars
whenever I fight,

and 1,800 is nothing.

Reporter:
Champ, Liston hopes you don't
have another hernia operation.

See? Now, you'd rather say
Champ than Muhammad, see?

(laughter)

Well, when we look at Ali
and the Nation of Islam,

it goes way back
to his amateur days.

He's certainly
showing an interest

in the Nation of Islam
when he's 16 and 17 years old.

And then in June
of 1962, in Detroit,

he meets Malcolm X.

The media always
portrayed Malcolm X

as someone who was
preaching hate.

Malcolm X was the most
articulate spokesperson

for the Nation of Islam.

There's no such thing
as justice in this country
for a black man,

and there's no such thing
as equality in this country
for a black man.

This is a white man's country.

But he did not have access

to the mainstream media,

except when the mainstream media

wanted to attack
the Nation of Islam.

Taylor:
Elijah Muhammad and the...

form of Islam that
he presents is a...

oppositional form of Islam.

It's really a sort of--
couched in black nationalism.

You say we are on the road
now to a better world

because the white man
promised integration.

This is a disgrace.

Muhammad Ali was a gold mine
for the Nation of Islam.

Hauser:
Cassius Clay,
and then Muhammad Ali,

by virtue of being

heavyweight champion
of the world,

was a story that
the media had to follow.

So, you have to understand
the prism through which

young Cassius Clay,
soon to be Muhammad Ali,

is seen as he
becomes the champion,

the heavyweight champion
of the world in 1964.

I don't think you
can appreciate

in early 21st century,
what it means to be

heavyweight champion
of the world.

At this moment, I can't
tell you the heavyweight
champion of the world.

If I was to get in a spaceship
and go back to 1963,

everybody knows the heavyweight
champion of the world.

We had not seen such
a high-profile figure

get that political.

Williams:
He's not playing the game

the way that the sportswriters
were used to,

and they're talking about how

this defiant young guy,

who declares that he is now

Muhammad Ali,
is being brainwashed,

has become a poisonous figure,

that he is someone who doesn't
understand what he's doing,

but he's being used
by the hateful people

in the Nation of Islam
to spread hate

to other young black minds.

It becomes like the sports page

is not about the boxing.

It's about the ideology.

Malcolm X, I wanna talk
with you briefly about

your affiliation with Cassius.
How long have you known him?

-About three years.
-And have you been advising him

-as far as his religious
affiliations are concerned?
-Well now,

I don't give advice to anyone.
He's my brother and my friend.

I express what I know
and understand around
him and then--

But he has a mind of his own,
an understanding of his own.

He's having a relationship
with Malcolm X.

He's learning
from Malcolm X.

Malcolm X is becoming
his spiritual advisor.

Ali sees him as a role model,

because Malcolm is proud.

Malcolm is about

black people as
capable and strong

and not secondary

in terms of
the American structure.

What attracted many people
to the Nation of Islam

during that time
is there wasn't

a lot of history for
African-Americans.

And so, you had
a religion that gave

people of color
a sense of pride,

a sense of identity--

that I do belong to something,
that I do have a history.

And so, when my father spoke,

you see this man who was

passionate and very confident,

and that was pretty big
back then because, um,

everything that was
taught about being black

or being a Negro was nothing
that was progressive.

To suddenly abandon
his religion,

Christianity,

become a part of
the Nation of Islam

at a time when civil
rights was percolating,

and Martin Luther King

was becoming a huge figure.

that he would join this...

basically, segregationist cult.

It's a challenge
to white America,

but not only to white America,

but many black Americans
who embraced Christianity.

Malcolm X can get
a Mike Wallace,

Louis Lomax interview

as a scary black man.

But when you have the Champ,

and he is, again,
this happy, very attractive,

in some ways,
inspiring presence,

that young man, Muhammad Ali,

he can go on
talk shows, sport shows.

He can draw attention
from crowds,

black, white, across the board,
around the globe,

in a way that Malcolm cannot.

I watch these shows,
and a lot of people,

they're just so happy to be on.

-Cavett: Yeah.
-(audience laughs)

Whereas you can
take it or leave it?

Well, I mean, you know--
I don't know.

So many problems in
the world with the people...

-Yeah.
-...the black people,
and the white people,

in the whole world,
people dying, getting shot.

And me being one of the few
of my kind, being blessed

to come on the shows or to get

the privilege to make,
a little money,

I just feel so guilty
laughing and joking

like everything is so rosy
while people are hungry

and can't find work
and out of work

and getting put
out of apartments,

and me up here
showing my teeth and,

-"Ke! Ke! Ke! Ke! Ke!"
-(audience laughs)

-You know... No.
-(audience applauds)

Dick Cavett was

the whitest of white
guys in America,

but he gave blacks
that had been

considered outside
of the mainstream,

like Ali, a chance to be heard,

and a chance to say
what they wanted to say,

unfiltered, which was rare.

I'm serious, you know,
this stays on my mind
every day, you know.

A certain amount of guilt
about being so successful--

No, not that. Just the freedom
and the plight of the people

-and the scuffle,
you know?
-Yeah.

And, like, this is on my mind,
you know, just part of my life,

more so than boxing in the ring.

-Cavett: Mm-hmm.
-So, I'm just dedicated
to it and I just...

just can't go
along with society

or with the movie stars
or Hollywood, you know,

and I know what's happening.

Ali would have
some of the most...

poignant feelings

of black rage that we'd have,

but it was couched
in a way that

it was in people's
living room,

but at the same time,
you could tell

that they had some kind
of bond and relationship,

that they kind of
understood each other,

but it was significant

because of who Cavett was
and who Ali was.

Do you feel bitter toward
the entire white race,

or do you think there's
something about whiteness

-that is evil?
-Ali: No sir, no sir.

Whatever
white people do

as far as evil
or as far as mistreatment,

it's just the nature
of the white race
to be this way.

-If we check history--
-Don't you think it
might be human nature?

Yes, just
human nature to kill.

If there was one, it seemed,
imperfection to Muhammad Ali--

and in those days, I thought
he was the perfect human being--

uh...

it was these views that
they were very segregationist

and actually,
you'd have to say racist.

And I watch television,

if there's not a movie
of white people

shooting white people in
shootouts in cowboy pictures,
they're shooting Indians.

If they're not shooting Indians,
they shoot Negroes.

If they're not doing that,
they're shooting reindeer or
elephants or killing something.

-Just got to shoot.
The system is built on war.
-(laughter)

I was uncomfortable
about that transition.

I didn't know
much about it.

I wasn't in close touch
with him during that time.

It was disturbing, the fact
that he maybe was being used

for some
disreputable causes.

I have times where he says

the exact same thing
as Malcolm X says,

the exact same thing as
Elijah Muhammad says.

I mean, he's great at this.

But he's an actor
learning lines.

He may believe the lines, too!
I'm not saying

he doesn't believe them,
but he's learning lines.

I would say the white race

when your people first got here,

they didn't have these
cameras and televisions

and jet airplanes
and air conditions

and Howard Johnson's
and Holiday Inns and Americana
and Hilton hotels.

They had to fight the Indians,
watch their daughters
raped and stabbed.

Uh, uh...

It took six months to go
from here to Los Angeles,

now you can do it in
three and a half hours.

But nevertheless,
they kept fighting,

and cutting
down the trees,

and they didn't see this,
but they made a way

for the present
whites to rule.

And the Japanese
in World War II,
they had these flights

called suicide missions.

They knew they would die,
but they ran that plane, right?

His life meant nothing
when it came to the freedom

of his daughter, his son,
the future of his nation.

And I would say
like the astronauts,

three white astronauts
almost got stranded in space,

-and their wives are waiting,
their children are worried...
-Cavett: Wait a minute.

...because they might--
they could've been
out there now,

-still in orbit.
-Yeah.

But for the progress of

white America in space, eight
astronauts died on the ground

and three almost not got back.

Now, if you're going
to interrogate him

beyond the lines,
he doesn't have that.

It's kind of hard
to put a black man...

any black person in
this country in jail

because if you ask the average
one, we're already in jail.

We've been there
in jail 400 years.

-How does, uh...
-(audience applauding)

-The subject changed so many
times in that long sentence--
-Ali: I've gotten this big--

I'm gonna talk
for a second now--

...that I really don't
know how that connects

with Howard Johnson's
and everything, but...

it's a terrifically
long harangue.

I felt that he was being
mouth-pieced at that time.

I found it somewhat
embarrassing,

and I was sorry for him
if that was true.

And I really
liked him so much

that I didn't really know
what to say or do about it,

but I do remember
there was one show at the--

people said he seemed kind
of down and too serious

and not even sure he
meant what he was saying.

I was with him during
the nine days, I think,

when he was training
for the Liston fight,

and he seemed very sincere.

Whether he has
understanding to equal

his sincerity is another thing.

I think there's some
honesty there, saying,

look, I don't think
that this guy is any...

intellectual who has
fully comprehended

the place of the black
man in America.

He has not studied as I,
Malcolm X, have studied.

He has not been at
the master's feet,

Elijah Muhammad,
in the way I have been
at the master's feet.

He's perfect.

He's not as
outspoken as Malcolm.

He's more willing to
give the party line,

as far as the Nation
is concerned.

No intelligent black
man in this audience,

no intelligent black woman,
in his right mind,

-don't want little white boys
and white girls-- Hold it.
-(applause, cheers)

Don't want little white
boys and white girls

coming to marry your
sons and daughters,

and in return, introducing
your grandchildren

as little half-white,
green-eyed,
blond-haired Negroes.

(cheering)

I mean, you can't get
the kind of publicity,

you can't get
the kind of exposure

for Nation of Islam...

which is, I mean, you know,

kind of a offshoot,

small cult even among
black American religions.

To compare it, um...

to, um, modern times, um...

Tom Cruise and John Travolta

famously became
Scientologists.

And, of course, for that...

cult or group or religion,

uh, those are great gets.

There's gotta be a collision!
There's got to be!

Because if I understand clearly
what black youth are saying,

they're saying that they ain't
going back a step further.

Now, maybe white dudes are
saying, "Well, I'll be darned

if I'm gonna give another inch."

Now, do you know
what that could mean?

And you know who's to blame?

All of the whites!

Roberts:
Louis Farrakhan, Louis X
at that time, had done

"White Man's Heaven Is
a Black Man's Hell."

He has a good voice,
a very nice voice,

and it's a very catchy tune.

♪ To take a man who
was born to be free ♪

♪ And bring him
down to slavery ♪

♪ Sell a man as merchandise ♪

♪ On his body, put a price ♪

♪ Oh my friend,
it's easy to tell ♪

♪ White man heaven
is a black man hell ♪

Ali memorized the album.

♪ Sell a man as merchandise ♪

♪ On his body, put a price ♪

♪ So my friends,
it's easy to tell ♪

♪ White man's heaven,
black man's hell ♪

The Nation of Islam was
going through this battle
with Malcolm X.

Many people who
were loyal to Malcolm X
joined his organization.

Now, Malcolm thought

he could take Clay with him

and form his own organization.

But he was wrong.

It was a real testimony

to many of us who
were outside of that--

that Ali remained loyal

to the Nation
and Elijah Muhammad,

which had to be
painful to him

to sabotage where a guy

who really nurtured
and taught him.

So, as Malcolm X

is being pushed out,

Cassius Clay is coming in.

I'm sure my father
was hurt simply...

with the fact that they
were no longer friends.

Increasingly, Elijah Muhammad

understands what Malcolm X
had brought to him,

which is the Champ.

And when Cassius
stays with the Nation

and becomes Muhammad Ali,

Malcolm X knew his days
on Earth were numbered.

Taylor:
The conflict which would
lead to Malcolm's death

has to do with his challenge
to the Nation of Islam,

and especially exposing

Elijah Muhammad,

noting that Elijah Muhammad

disappointed him personally

because of his involvement
with some of his secretaries

and having children
out of wedlock.

Muhammad interacted with

quite a few white men
on a very intimate basis,

Angelo Dundee
foremost among them.

I have never noticed
uh, no violence or nothing

where you could say
that Muslims are

physically or radically
opposed to whites.

He was never one-on-one
hostile to white people,

and yet, there was
pressure on him,

particularly after
the assassination of Malcolm X

to be super Muslim.

America's going broke today.

She's having Vietnam problems.

Roberts:
Not serving in the military

was part of
the Nation of Islam.

Elijah Muhammad
had gone to prison

for not serving
in World War II.

His son, Wallace Muhammad,

had served time in prison
for refusing induction.

The black Muslims do
not advise their members

to avoid registering,

but tell them to search
their individual consciences.

This leaves the movement free
of violation of federal law.

A prominent Muslim involved
in a draft-dodging case

is heavyweight
champion Cassius Clay,

or Muhammad Ali.

Newsman: Clay's draft board
says he could be drafted
in February.

Two appeals for deferment
have already been turned down.

White America right
now is spending

$30 million a day in Asia.

Black and white boys are
dying unjustly for nothing,

just to free somebody else.

So, why I should
worry about going

to little old jail to free
my poor people,

who's been catching
hell here for 400 years?

(audience applauding)

Most athletes,
including black athletes,

did join the armed forces.

The social pressure to
do so was very great.

Well, I have two
decisions to make,

made on the 28th is to...

serve and abide

by the laws of
the American government.

Serve and abide by the laws of

almighty God Allah,
the religion Islam.

And it's just up
to me to which one

I fear the most,
the government or Allah.

The Nation didn't want Cassius
to go into the military.

Newsman:
Former world heavyweight
champion Cassius Clay

refused to take the oath
of induction into the army.

The black Muslim fighter,

who's also known
as Muhammad Ali,

was immediately
stripped of his title

by the World Boxing
Association.

Clay insisted that he is
an ordained minister
and should be exempt.

Clay also charges
race discrimination

by the Houston draft board.

He refused to
fight in a war

that many of us
would not fight in.

And we saw the war as immoral.

Ali was a conscientious
objector.

They want me to go to Vietnam
to shoot some black folks

that never lynched me,
never call me nigga,

never put no dog on me,
never assassinated my leaders.

I'm fighting to free him,

and my mama ain't
free in Louisville.

-So, since I gotta die...
-(man laughing)

-...just let me die here now!
-(crowd cheering)

Ali was treated differently

than any other
conscientious objector.

Newsman:
He faces federal prosecution

and a possible five-year
prison sentence,

plus $10,000 fine.

Later, Martin Luther King
praised Clay's courage.

You got the worst
shake of anybody

in professional athletics in
the history of this country.

When America gave
you that bad shake,

they hurt themselves far
more than they ever hurt you,

-and they hurt you plenty.
-Oh, I'm not hurt at all.

Do you share the same concern

that Muhammad has
for his draft status?

Oh, I certainly do.
My views on the draft

are clear.
I'm against it.

Well, how do you stand now with

the possibility
of going to jail?

Oh, I don't know.
I'm just waiting any day now.

-Do you think about--
-(laughter)

Do you think about that, though?

Do you ever think
what you'll do if you go?

Well, yes. You think about it at
nights when you're in the bed.

You think about if I went this
way, what could've happened.

If I went this way,
and I figured it all out.

-Cavett: Yeah.
-No people gained freedom
until some have to die,

some lose their wealth,
some give up money.

Well, I am a minister of
the Honorable Elijah Muhammad,

and I have been for
the past good two years.

Ali objected

to the war in Vietnam.

Objected to fighting a war

that he saw as,
essentially,

a white man's war.

A war that was, essentially,
a white man's war.

He wasn't wrong on this.

If he's not given

full-fledged human rights

in his own country,
why should he go and fight...

for someone else?

Now, the idea of
a conscientious objector

is you're opposed to all wars.

By the time the case reached
the United States Supreme Court,

the government had
changed its position.

It said we now agree

that this is a religious belief.

We now believe that
it is sincerely held,

but Muhammad Ali has said

that he would fight
in a religious war.

Therefore, he does
not meet the criteria

for being against
all war in any form.

There's a real fight
right here in America,

and if I can somehow...

fight for the freedom of
black people in this country,

well, I'd sign up right away.

Newsman:
Deposed heavyweight
champion Cassius Clay,

at federal court in Houston,
is found guilty

of violating the US
Selective Service laws

by refusing to be inducted.

He is sentenced to
five years in prison
and fined $10,000,

the maximum penalty for
the offense, which is a felony.

The sentence was appealed
by Clay's lawyers.

♪ ♪

Clay contended his status
as a black Muslim minister

made him exempt from the draft.

Released on bail,
he faces a possible

18-month wait for
an appeal decision.

I'm capable of having
asked him if I could see

his ordained
ministry documents,

but, uh, (chuckles)
I never did.

Yeah...

He was right about
the Vietnam War.

One did not need
to be a minister

in order to be entitled to
conscientious objector status

during the war in Vietnam.

I have no way of
knowing if his...

adopted feelings about
conscientious objection

or his new feelings about it,
or if they were new,

if they were genuine,
I had no idea.

He was such a sly
and subtle man,

and so disarmingly

and just startlingly
intelligent.

And what
the Supreme Court said

in a very narrow,
technical ruling

was that Ali meets
the requirement,

and so therefore, we have
to vacate the conviction.

He's more than 26 years old,

so he's no longer
eligible for the draft.

What Ali did was...

very brave and costly to him--

the fact that he would do it

as he was entering
the prime of his career.

Ali was forced out of boxing
for more than three years.

He was...

peaking as a fighter then,

and it might be that we
never saw what would've been

the best three years of
Muhammad Ali's career.

Which is a little
like knowing that

there were three symphonies
written by Beethoven

that were somehow
lost to time.

Right now, there's a so-called
tournament going on...

between eight title contenders.

Four of them who I have already

completely annihilated!

(crowd cheering)

♪ ♪

(applause)

And the other four...

the other four that
I haven't fought yet,

-I'll whoop them all tonight,
right here in this field house!
-(cheering)

When Ali was in exile

and went out on
the college lecture tour

to make money to
support his family,

in a way, it was like a...

presidential candidate,

who's going around the country,
to the Iowa State fair

and the Ice Ball festival
in New Hampshire,

and all these places they go,

sowing the seeds for
primaries later on.

Such actions, such actions

that they are now taking

is an insult on
your intelligence

when you know all the time
who the champion is,

now to take some bum
that I have whooped

-and make you think
he's the champ!
-(cheering)

I don't know a great deal
about heavyweight boxing.

My interest in it spans the
Billy Conn-Joe Louis fight,

up to the marriage of Ethel
Merman and Ernest Borgnine.

(laughing)

There seem to be several
heavyweight champions
these days.

Will you welcome
one of them, Joe Frazier.

There was nothing not to love

about Joe Frazier if
you were a fight fan.

When Ali was stripped
of his championship,

the WBA had an eight-man
heavyweight tournament.

Joe decided not to enter
that tournament.

Jimmy Ellis emerged victorious.

Ellis, Joe fought each other.

Joe annihilated Ellis.

Joe Frazier wins
the title, but he knows

until he fights
and defeats Muhammad Ali,

he will not be the real champion
in the eyes of the world.

If I was still boxing,

or if my title hadn't

been taken the way it was,
I would say that

Joe Frazier would've possibly
been a contender, but...

we never did meet
and never will.

Never will.
Can you say that... flatly?

-I mean, there's no chance
you'll ever fight again?
-Right.

-That's right.
-Yeah.

Gee, that seems a shame
because it's like

a great talent is being wasted.
Do you feel it that way?

-No, I don't think about that.
-There's no nostalgia
for the ring?

I'm just glad to be
able to be blessed by...

almighty God to come
out of the thing

unmarked and unscratched

and well invested
and still with a good mind.

I guess there's no possibility
of your fighting him, is there?

Well, it does look bad,

for me and him
to meet each other

because right now,
he does have a problem,

it's a great problem,

but I think if he should come
back, I'll be able to take him.

Joe Frazier was a contender,

but now that I've retired,
he is the legal champion.

I recognize him as the champ
because I'm no longer active.

When Muhammad Ali was
going through the period

where he was barred
from fighting,

that period
between '67 and '70,

and he was running out of money,
Joe Frazier's giving him cash!

Joe Frazier saying,
"Look, look, Muhammad.

"As soon as we can
get your license,

I'll fight you for
the championship."

By the time Ali
fought Zora Folley,

which was his last fight
before he was sent into exile,

the American public had
started to grow tired of him.

He wasn't making as much for
his fights as he had before.

♪ ♪

In your mind, what rank
does Muhammad Ali have now?

I think he's one of

the good fighters beside myself.

-(laughter)
-But, uh...

I don't really get
into it because...

I try to stay away from
uncle as much as possible

because politics is really
not my business, you know?

-Right.
-And I think

this is politics,
so I stay away from it.

-But I really think
he's a great guy.
-Cavett: Mm.

-The other day, he said
he'd put you into orbit.
-(laughter)

Well, I heard that before, Dick.

Many guys have tried,
but they have failed.

Sharpton:
I remember when Ali
came back to the ring

and fought Jerry Quarry,

and Jim Brown debated
Lester Maddox.

Your statement on the day of the
fight was something like this.

That it's a dark day
in Georgia

because this fight
is being put on.

You gotta remember,
Lester Maddox

was the guy who was
governor of Georgia.

Newsman:
The lawmakers finally
choose segregationist Maddox

as their new governor.

The former restaurant owner,
who gained national
publicity by refusing

to integrate his
fried chicken place,

ran on a platform
of states' rights and
preservation of the race.

And his claim to fame
was he would chase blacks

out of his restaurant
with an axe handle.

I felt very happy that this
fight took place in Atlanta.

-How did you feel about it?
-I felt very sad.

-And why was that?
-Here's a man that has said

well, here, I wanna fight
in the ring for money,

but I won't even wear
the uniform of my country.

He says that
I can't do this...

In other words, I'm
gonna act different from

these other people who
stand up for their country

and put on
the uniform.

Had they not fought
for this country,

if they were not even fighting
today and wearing this uniform,

that he could not even
get in a ring and fight

-and be a free man to fight.
-But isn't it true--

So, he's helping to
tear down this country

with this philosophy,
with this belief.

He is expressing the view
that millions of people hold.

Suppose every American,
Mr. Brown,

suppose every American had
decided that they were not gonna

put on the uniform of their
country and not fight for it.

(audience applauding)

We wouldn't have
a United States of America,

and I couldn't
be on your show,

-and you probably wouldn't
even have a show tonight.
-Isn't it true--

If everybody had had that
attitude, and I don't like it,

and I don't care
whether you like it.

-Don't care who don't like it.
-Taylor: Millions of people

see Muhammad Ali's refusal

to go fight for his country
as being hypocritical.

This man followed
the law of the land.

He made his stand.
He has been fighting
through the courts.

He has gone to
the higher courts,

and he will go to jail
if he is proven guilty.

-Well, I hope he does go--
-Can I finish?

Can I finish? Can I finish?
Don't you feel

that whenever a man
goes through the courts

that he is abiding by
the laws of the land,

and that man who is willing
to stand up with that decision

is a brave man, regardless
of what his beliefs might be?

This is a time where the country
is extremely divided.

-Because we represent--
-Did you have any problems
from the bigots, in the South?

-Have any problems with what?
-From the white bigots,

because you did so
much for the black man.

(audience laughs)

What do you mean,
which white bigots?
There are black ones

-and white ones I have trouble
with from time to time.
-No, I said white bigots.

So, he was the symbol
of Southern segregation.

Mr. Brown asked you,
Governor Maddox

if you'd had any trouble
from your white admirers

-for the fact that--
-Maddox: He didn't
say admirers, sir.

-No, he said bigots.
-Maddox: Well, why didn't
you say it like he said it?

-(laughing, clapping)
-You have me there.

Why didn't you say it?
Now, see there what
I'm talking about, Dick?

-I do see it, yes--
-You take words
and twist them around,

and you mislead the people
in your audience and all.

I would say that I phrased
the question in a way

that was not exactly
accurate in the sense that

he did say bigots.

Have any white
bigots been upset

because you have
done certain things
for the blacks?

But you came back
and said my admirers,

and you haven't apologized yet,
and you got 15 seconds.

(audience groans, shouts)

Cavett:
All right, now let me
use those 15 seconds.

I apologize for suggesting that

a bigot would be
the way of characterizing

all of your admirers.

-No, sir.
-Wait a minute, wait a minute!
There's more time!

-Good night, sir.
-(laughter, cheers)

Cavett:
He walked off a scant
88 minutes into the show.

When Lester Maddox walked off
Dick Cavett's show that night,

it might have been
humiliation for him,

it was jubilation for us.

We won against
the Maddoxes of the world.

I would like to hear
this from you,

and I want the world
and the cameras to hear it.

Who's the heavyweight
champion of the world?!

(crowd cheering)

(crowd chanting "Ali!")

There are a lot
of states in which

you are not
heavyweight champion.

I know this is an old tiresome
subject, but what is this?

I can't keep up with
the fact that in some states,

they don't recognize
the champion that
other people recognize.

Well, it really
bothered me also.

-Cavett: Mm-hmm.
-I don't know
much about it.

Only thing I usually do is
keep up with the fight game.

Joe Frazier was
a very good fighter.

One of the sad things about

Joe's saga is that
he was never really able

to enjoy his time
as champion as much
as he should have

because of the omnipresent
shadow of Muhammad Ali.

They would both run,
do their morning roadwork

in Fairmount Park
in Philadelphia,

so they saw each
other all the time.

So, it was a friendly-
unfriendly rivalry,

and Frazier knew his fate
was tied in with Ali,

and Ali knew that his fate
was tied in with Frazier.

You think Muhammad Ali ought
to get to fight Frazier?

-Well--
-Are you interested
in seeing that?

Well, I'd like to see it
as everyone else would,

but, uh, I can't say,

Dick, whether or not
he should fight or not.

I wouldn't want to pass
any opinion on that.

After the exile
when he came back,

he got paid more
for the Quarry fight

than he had ever
received for a fight,

and then two fights after that,

Ali and Joe Frazier each
received the unheard of sum

of two and a half million
dollars to fight each other.

I beat
Sonny Liston twice,

-and they wasn't convinced--
-We know that!

-That's all over!
-Let me finish talking, Joe!

-Now you ain't
fighting Sonny Liston.
-Joe, you talk after me.

No, you listen!
You listen now!

-Let me finish something,
then I'll listen to you.
-No, I'm the champ, you ain't.

Frazier also knew how
to play to the crowd.

Ali was the genius at it,
but Frazier was pretty good too.

-You in trouble.
I'm serious.
-You in trouble?

You cannot keep this
title because it's not
the real title.

I got the real title.

You ain't nothing
but a big phony.

Oh yeah? When I'm through
with you, Joe Frazier,

you gonna be so messed up,
Vitalis won't even help!

How about that.
Hey, look here. Hey, hey, Clay.

Hey, Clay. Clay!

Joe Frazier said,
"His mama called him Clay.

"That's what I call him.
His mother was Mrs. Clay,

his father was Mr. Clay,
I call him Clay."

That really rankled on Ali,
and he took that as not only

a disrespect of
his chosen name,

but also disrespect
for the Nation of Islam.

He told me he's the only
one who's got enough guts
to call you Cassius.

Well, I'm gonna
straighten him out.

After this fight,
he will be glad to
call me Muhammad Ali.

I promise you that!

Well, there was a reference
to your calling him Clay.

-And, you know--
-Ali: He just says that to
agitate me. He's a nice man.

He say that because
it used to make me mad,

-but it don't no more.
-Cavett: Oh, does he?

See, the press--
Now, everybody calls me Ali.

The press call me Ali.
You call me Ali.

-The Ku Klux Klan
even call me Ali.
-(audience laughs)

So now, you know a brother
who's still calling me Clay,

he really ain't
no Uncle Tom.

He's just doing
that to make me mad.

When Ali, you know,
called him an Uncle Tom,

it was cruel,
and it was personal.

Now, Ali had done

similar things
with other opponents,

um, but not quite like this.

And Joe Frazier would
always say, "Wait a second!

"I came up desperately poor!

"Cassius grew up, basically,

"middle class African-American.

"He wasn't desperately poor.
He wasn't like me.

"Look at his management group.

"Look at his trainer.
Everybody's white!

"Why am I getting

painted with this brush
of being an Uncle Tom?"

And it hurt him terribly.

Ali was so dominant
in that media space

in terms of not only
defining himself,

but defining his opponent.

What Joe Frazier
never understood

is the defiance was
more important to us
than the story.

Muhammad Ali became larger
than just a boxer.

He represented,
he symbolized,

essentially, our sentiment.

He was the person
who was defying

and standing up to America,

who spoke out against
American imperialism,

who spoke out against
American racism.

Joe Frazier,
on the other hand,

represented
the Great White Hope.

Joe Frazier was a race man.

Joe Frazier cared
about his race.

He cared about blacks.

But Ali is going to
paint him as an Uncle Tom,

as the symbol of white America.

This fight had become

a polarizing social,

political event.

If you were
a political conservative,

you supported Frazier.

If you were against the war
in Vietnam, you supported Ali.

If Ali would make
one more crack,

say, about the war
or his draft status,

the money coming out of
the American Legions' halls

-would drive the price up
to two to one for Frazier.
-(laughter)

Joe Frazier had no idea, uh,
what was going on politically.

The world probably
was on the side of Ali.

Nelson Mandela told me
he was in prison

and that everybody
knew about it.

I mean, if you lived in
an igloo or a hut someplace,

you knew about that fight.

So, I have
a sparring partner

who reminds me
of Joe Frazier.

Flew him all
the way here.

-(excited chattering)
-Gorilla Joe! Gorilla Joe!

Let him in!
He can go a round or two.

Gorilla Joe.
Take your time, Gorilla.

-(growling, grunting)
-This gets me ready
for Joe Frazier!

-He resembles Joe Frazier.
-(crowd laughs)

(growls)

His taunting of Frazier
was over the line.

Um, you know...

in part because

America was over the line.
It was divided.

Joe's gonna come out smoking,

and I ain't gonna be joking.

I'll be pecking and a-poking,

pouring water on his smoking.

Now, this might
shock and amaze ya,

but I will destroy Joe Frazier.

I think he knew
what he was doing.

His instincts were great--
how far to go,

how much to say,
how insulting to be,

and, at times,
he went over the line.

-Let me tell you something,
boy. Somebody told me--
-Frazier: Huh? What was that?

-I said Roy.
-Frazier: Oh.

(audience laughing)

(Cavett laughs)

Cavett:
Well, that might be
a good place to stop!

Newsman:
He also claims he's got
a spy in your camp,

somebody that
phones him up every day

and gives him
a report on your progress.

-Does that bother you?
-They're not gonna be
in that ring March 8.

Would it be unethical
for you before the fight

of the century to
say who's gonna...

-who you think is gonna take it?
-Cosell: Not at all.

I give the edge to Joe Frazier.

-I do it reluctantly because
of my relationship with Ali.
-Cavett: Yeah.

I think Ali, four years ago,

was the finest
fighter I ever saw.

Certainly one of the great
athletes I've ever seen.

His swiftness was incredible.

But I don't think
he's superhuman,

and I think four years away
in the most demanding,

fundamental,
and brutal of all sports,

it's simply not possible
to recapture what you had.

People like Howard Cosell,
you know...

-(audience laughs)
-I mean...

(imitating Cosell):
"Muhammad Ali is
just a mere shell

of the fighter he was
10 years ago."

-(laughter)
-"Muhammad,

"you're not the same
man as you were

15 years ago, is that right?"

Now, you know
that's a silly thing to say

Ain't nobody the same as
they were 15 years ago.

Cavett: If I were you,
I'd reach up and muss
up his hair.

-Yeah. Nah.
-(laughter)

No, I'm not
gonna... (laughs)

-I'm not gonna mess it up.
I'm gonna pull it off!
-(laughter)

He wasn't the same
Muhammad Ali who had fought
Cleveland Williams.

When he came back
and he fought guys
like Jerry Quarry,

he just wasn't the same.

He had lost four valuable years,
prime years of his career.

Is it bad taste
to ask you who's gonna...

who's gonna
emerge victorious?

(laughs)
Well, I like Frazier.

I'm somewhat...

believer, like Howard said that

three and a half years,
or four years,

awful long time to
stay away from a sport.

Now that we've all
demoralized Muhammad Ali

by predicting that those
couple of years are gonna be...

the decisive
factor in this,

maybe you should give
him a couple of pointers.

-I know he never
misses this show.
-(laughter)

The hype for the fight itself

was so high, and then
the fight not only

transcended the event,

but transcended the expectations
for the fight itself

in terms of drama.

I did go to
the fight last night.
Gee, that was exciting.

Wow, I've never had
anything like that happen.

I went with my wife,
who does not like

to go out in public with me.

(laughter)

No, it's because of the
inevitable, "Ooh! It's you!"

at a celebrity, you know?

And I just can't help it.
When I see a celebrity,

-I go, "Ooh! It's you!"
-(laughter)

I sat behind Aretha Franklin,

the first lady of soul,
and next to the famous actor

Jason Robards.

Frank Sinatra was in
press row with a camera.

-The atmosphere
was unbelievable.
-(crowd cheering)

The most exciting night,
I believe,

in sports history--
March 8, 1971.

I was sitting in the last
row of the mezzanine,

at the far end of the arena,

and it was a magical night.

That fight was not on TV live,

but it was on radio live,
so I heard it over the radio.

Great fights are never simply
about athletic competitions.

They're always
about the symbols

that surround and intertwine
with the fight.

Now, that's a fight that
had the great symbols,

but it was also a great fight!

When Frazier,
late in that fight,

reached back
and knocked Ali down,

all of us felt that blow.

For a person of
enormous bombast--

"I'm the greatest. If I lose,
I'm gonna flee the country.

You'll never see
my face again."--

Ali was a great loser.

I mean, he lost
with such grace and class.

I, myself, was not

as sure as the officials
of the total result.

I think that some of
the establishment wanted to see

Frazier beat Ali.

It was a very close fight,

but the knockdown
in the last round

closed the argument.

If possible, Muhammad Ali,
who was bigger than life before,

seems even bigger now
as a result of this fight.

Will you welcome please
a most astonishing athlete,

Muhammad Ali.

(applauding)

(cheering)

(cheers and applause continuing)

-I see... I see...
-(applause fades)

I see you were looking
for aftereffects.

I still have
a little swollen jaw.

Cavett:
I was looking there. There
is something about your face

-that's not exactly even--
-It was twice as big on
the night of the fight,

but it's going down a little.

What'd you say?
It's not exactly even, huh?
(chuckles)

Cavett: I'm surprised
that it's still--

Can I see how it feels?
Is it this...

-Does it kind of hurt?
-Kinda hard, yeah.

-(Cavett whistles)
-It's going down. No pain.

-What do you? Do you soak it
every day or do anything to it?
-Well, I was supposed to.

It would've been down,
but I was too lazy.

How'd you get that
anyway? I, uh...

(laughter)

I haven't seen
you in a while,

and I haven't been
reading the papers.

-Couple of hard
left hooks.
-Yeah.

You know, I saw the films
the other night of the fight.

Boy, that was a--
Have you looked at the films?

Yeah, I saw it
the other day.

I went to see it
in New Jersey, yeah.

That left really looks
even harder than it did there.

I was at the fight,
and I saw you hit the floor--

Yeah, it was hard.
When you see me go down,
it was hard.

-(laughter, applause)
-Cavett: Right, I noticed.

I, uh...

If that punch had hit me,
I would've stayed down

-till about the 23rd
of June, I think.
-(laughter)

-Maybe the 24th.
-I think if that
punch had hit you,

-you'd have had a new
fellow on this show.
-Right.

He took defeat better than
anybody thought he could.

And it was fascinating to watch.

I was quite sure
I was winning on points.

-As far as points--
-Cavett: You really were.

-Right?
-(cheers and applause)

-As far as, as far as the--
-(cheers and applause
continuing)

I would say, as far as
punches landed in rounds,

I lost probably six rounds.
I think I won nine, but...

-Cavett: Mm-hmm.
-But that was the opinion of
the judges, and that's all over,

so ain't no sense in protesting.
We'll just do better next time

-if we have another one.
-But the guys

in your corner were telling you,
weren't they, to stop clowning?

-Did they feel that
you might be losing--
-Couple times, yeah. Yeah.

Why did you decide
not to listen to them?

Well, let's see, you know,
once you get in the...

in the ring,
it's kind of hard to do
what people tell you, you know?

Yeah. But I'd clown less,
if I were you.

No one likes a silly
heavyweight champion.

(audience laughing)

After all...
(chuckles)

Did you learn much
from watching the films?

Were there any surprises
in the films for you?

-No, the surprise was
in the fight itself.
-Yeah.

-(audience laughing)
-Then, um...

-(applause)
-Then, I didn't...
I didn't realize

that I could be
hit so many times

with the same punch, you know?

Usually, one or two left hooks

or right crosses,
I usually catch onto it.

But I have to give it to him,
I ain't taking nothing from him.

He's really good as far as
slugging is concerned.

He's not skillful,
but he's real strong

-and he keeps coming.
-Cavett: Mm-hmm.

He takes five or 10
punches to land one,

-but when he hits you,
you shook.
-(audience laughs)

Marley: He and Frazier
both wound up going

to St. Claire's Hospital,

but Ali did point out later on

that Frazier spent more time
in the hospital than he did,
and it's true.

Even though Frazier won,

he took a worse physical
beating than Ali did.

He got hit by one punch
very hard,

and it blew a little
blood vessel, which, uh...

-exuded this blood into
the space of his jaw...
-Cavett: Mm-hmm.

...and at the angle of the jaw,
and that was all that happened
to him.

-He was very tired.
-I never saw him look swollen
after a fight before--

Pacheco:
He's never been hit like Joe
Frazier hit him after the fight.

-Yeah.
-Joe Frazier is
an excellent fighter,

and he did what no one
else has been able to do--

Get to Muhammad Ali.

Roberts:
Up through '67 when
he goes into exile,

up through
the Zora Foley fight...

(sighs) He's just amazing.

I mean, that's where
he's got the Ali shuffle going.

He's never hit.

He hits the person
anytime he wants to hit him.

It's-- You know,
he's taking no punishment.

I mean, he's just spectacular.

When he came back from exile,

he didn't have his legs anymore.

He couldn't dance
the way he once had.

He also didn't have
his timing down.

He slowed down.
He didn't train
really very well

during his exile period.

He's a different fighter.

He loses to Frazier,
but then you have this trilogy,

these three fights.

And you see him get hit
in brutal fashion.

I mean, these are
savage fights,

and you understand,

yeah, he may be your...

Superman in boxing trunks,
but guess what?

Superman's getting hurt here.

And he would always allow people
to get in and whale away
at his midsection.

Always taking punches on
the kidneys and in the liver.

I mean, those are...

those are punches
that are gonna have
an effect on a person.

I got hit more in this
fight than, I would say,

my last six fights put together.

♪ ♪

The fight against Frazier,

everybody had a lot of money
to make in that, not just Ali.

And maybe somebody should've
said to Ali, you know,

"Let's take off a little bit.
Let's train.

Let's see what's going
to happen."

But...

when they wave that much
money in front of your face,

uh... it's hard to say no.

Hauser:
The Supreme Court decision
didn't come down in his case

until after the first
Frazier fight.

There was always the chance that
the Supreme Court would say,

"No, you're going to jail now."

And because that
was hanging over him,

Ali had to fight Joe Frazier
as soon as possible.

♪ ♪

It's somebody's job
to protect your fighter. Okay?

It's the management's job.
It's the trainer's job.

Ali-Frazier one was
a great fight.

The public loved it.

The public wanted a rematch.

Ali wanted a rematch,
Joe Frazier didn't want it.

"He don't want me no more."
Real silly talk.

-And Joe Frazier,
since I fought him...
-Cavett: Yeah.

...I have fought eight times.

-This fight will be eight.
-Yeah.

You can't buy a ticket
to Madison Square Garden,

yet he wants to know why
am I as valuable as him.

I've had eight fights,
he's had two.

His two fights were men
that I couldn't fight

because the people would,
like, boo me out the arena.

Terry Daniels
and then Ron Stander,

and after that, he thought
he'd take an easy third fight,

which was against
George Foreman.

One of the disciples
of Sonny Liston

was a guy named
Big George Foreman,

who idolized Sonny Liston.

Hauser:
Well, George Foreman
wasn't so easy.

He pulverized
Frazier in Jamaica.

Now, George Foreman is
the new heavyweight champion
in the world,

and all of a sudden, an Ali
rematch looks better to Joe.

Ali, meanwhile,
had lost to Ken Norton.

I'm always thinking he can win,
he can beat anybody.

But then you see him take
some bad beatings.

You see his jaw get broken,

um, and you start
to understand,

you know what,
he's not dancing like
he used to dance.

People are catching up to him.

Punches that previously
would have missed

as he was pulling back,
now are catching his jaw.

-Cavett: Do you think
it was a lucky punch?
-I really don't know.

My mouth wasn't completely
closed I remember, but...

-You can remember the moment
that it happened clearly?
-Yeah.

-You know, when the jaw went?
-Yeah, yeah.

I don't make excuses,
you know, for losing.

So, but my major reason

was because I didn't
train properly.

One of my favorite moments
in my life with Ali

was when he came on the show

after the notorious
fight in which

-his jaw was broken.
-The Joe Frazier fight...

-Yeah?
-...my jaw was
still that big,

-and only Dick Cavett
called me up.
-(audience laughs)

And this
Ken Norton fight,

I've only got calls
from Dick Cavett.

He was just adorable.

You are really
my main man,

because this is the only
show that invites me
right after I get whipped.

(audience laughing)

(audience cheering, applauding)

I don't take any chances.

"You my main man."

And I didn't know the phrase.

When you're washed up,
when you're downhill like me,

and when you're just
an old, retired bum,

you can tell
who your friends are.

And I want to thank you for
still inviting me on your show
after being defeated.

Starting the next day,

I think I was shooting
something up in Harlem

for the Apollo Theater
or something,

and one person after another
came over and said,

"Do you know what a compliment
you had last night?"

Did I say it like
the writer told me to say it?

-(laughter, applause)
-I never knew anybody like you.
Thank you.

He beat Norton in the rematch,

so the stage was set
for Ali-Frazier two.

I'm in a remote part
of Pennsylvania,

and I'm at the training
camp of Muhammad Ali.

Deer Lake,
Pennsylvania.

-Deer Lake. Maybe
it's not so remote.
-Schuylkill Haven County.

Obviously, the second
fight, um, between...

Ali and Frazier was
also a major event,

but it didn't, um...

it didn't have all the juice
that the first one had.

Are you planning to knock out
Frazier? I know that's
a technical question.

I will stop Joe Frazier,
but the round I can't reveal

until a week or so
before the fight.

-You know what it is,
though, do you?
-Frazier will fall.

It was an interesting fight
because they both had
tarnished reputations.

Frazier can't take the punches,
he's not the same man.

George Foreman
annihilated him.

Joe Bugner shook him up,

and I'm gonna finish him!

Cavett:
I'm at his training camp
in Pennsylvania.

He was delightful.

He was funny.
He took me into his cabin.

He had old-style stuff.

Cavett:
I wanna see the inside
of your house. Is this it?

Ali: This is an old,
antique house, replica
of a 200-year-old cabin.

-A real water pump.
-Did you design this yourself?

-Ali: Designed everything.
Old antique bed in it.
-Yeah?

Ali: A coal stove.
No electricity.

Coal oil lamps.
Everything is real,

just like in the days
of Jack Johnson.

And he kept using
the same words at one point.

"Dick, this is
my old antique pump,

and that's my old antique bed."

Hey, I love what you've
done with the place.

Oh yeah,
this is all antique.

I did all this up myself, Dick.

This is a 200-year-old
rope bed here.

He had such
charisma and charm

and sex appeal
and everything.

So, this is
an old water well,

and my old dishes
and stuff here.

And these things are
hundreds of years old.

He pulled a kind of dirty
trick on me at one point.

He knew two homely women...

and-- but they were
friends of his.

And as we were
lunching at his camp,

he said, "Dick, see these
two women coming in?

They're for you later."

(laughs)
And then he broke up--

He broke himself up laughing
and almost spoiled the joke.

-No electricity.
-How do you watch television?

No television.
I go over in my kitchen
to watch television.

-What do you watch?
-I watch the Johnny
Carson show mostly.

(foot thumps)

- The Dick Cavett Show sometime.
-(chuckles)

The card who's got
the most colored
guests on.

-The most colored?
-The most colored guests, yeah.

Oh, I see. What colors
do you prefer?

But the night
that you have me,

and now that me
and Joe Frazier's
on your show,

I guarantee you, everybody
will have more ratings.

-Do you think he'll show up--
-I think he'll show up.

Let's see, Frazier's back there.

-Ali is being kept in an
isolation booth down that way.
-(audiences laughs)

He thinks he's
on The Dating Game,

-so don't, uh, tell him.
-(audience laughs)

The old story: Two guys are
gonna try to batter each other
virtually to death,

and they're having
a good time laughing
and telling jokes backstage.

Will you welcome
two gentlemen named...

Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali.

(music playing)

(applause, cheering)

Neither one was a champion,

Frazier having lost
the title to Foreman,

but we were curious about...

what was gonna happen
in the ring.

I saw that in the film
that Dick Cavett did
with Muhammad Ali

that he does all kinds
of things in the ring
to make him angry at you.

I mean, he has
this guy in the ring

who's dressed as a gorilla
and all this sort of thing.

Well, I don't need that.
All I need is a man
in front of me.

I'm not worried about losing.

-Frazier: 'Cause he gonna beat--
-I really don't think about it.

I have made
no preparations for loss.

I'm down to 210.

I'm moving like I should move.
I'm no longer playing.
I'm boxing.

This man comes in,
anybody can hit him.

All his sparring partners
are ramming him every day,
and they are nothing to me.

-No class.
No footwork. No speed.
-Right.

-Ooh!
-When I get those little bitty
gloves on and be real serious,

-and no playing--
-Wonder what they're
gonna put on me.

...just sticking and moving.
All he's got is some hooks--

What kind of gloves
I'm gonna have?

-He can't stop me--
-What kind of gloves
I'm gonna have on?

-You answer that.
-Cavett: The man's
asking you a question.

-You have on the same gloves
you had last time.
-You gonna have little gloves.

-What they gonna put on me?
Sledgehammer or something?
-You gonna have on the same--

-(laughter)
-Now that sounds silly.
That's another crazy question.

-Everybody know he's gonna
have on gloves like me.
-All right, then!

-Well, why you making
a statement like that?
-Cavett: Can I ask a question?

What am I gonna have on?
Okay, you prove--

-You have on gloves like me.
We always have the on same--
-You said it was-- Right.

-All right, then.
-Ali: You come on now.
We ain't gotta--

-(audience shouting
encouragement)
-Cavett: No, we can't have it.

We don't want it here!
No, no. It would be very bad.

You better-- No.
You could get hurt!

(audience shouting)

You could-- No.
You'll hurt your
hand or something.

You will.
You could hurt yourself.

-Get in there, Michael, get--!
-Michael: You get in there.

-(audience shouting)
-You're coming very close.

Watch it, watch it,
watch it, watch it.

(audience shouting)

They were still better
than almost everybody else
on the planet at their weights.

There is another attitude
toward this fight, and that is

that it's really two old guys
who are just over the hill--

-Ali: Two old guys
over the hill?
-...still in your prime--

-Listen, Joe Louis, Sugar Ray--
-Cavett: Wait a minute,
let me finish.

It's just gonna be palookasville
at the Garden that night.

-What would you say
to a person who said that?
-Ali: I'd say this:

People expect me to do good,
uh, when I was young--

Olympics, Golden Gloves,
Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson.

Now, I'm considered
getting kind of old.

Been fighting now-- it's been
10 years since Sonny Liston,

-and it's been 20 years
since I started boxing.
-Cavett: Almost to the day.

Twenty long years,
so naturally,

a human should start
withering away,

his timing should get off,
he should get slow.

But when you see me
get into that ring with
Joe Frazier, at 210 pounds,

which is two pounds lighter
than I was 10 years ago,

when you see me on my feet,
dancing faster and better
than I did with Ken Norton,

which was 90% of the time
for 12 rounds,

and when you see the punches,
I'm gonna be so fast,

he's gonna think
he's surrounded.

-Cavett: Am I ever gonna get--
-Ali: Listen, when you see--

-He's talking now.
He's not fighting. He's talking.
-Ali: Let me finish!

Merchant:
They were not at the primes
of their careers anymore.

Should they have retired?

You know, um,

I used to say I'm not
gonna tell them to retire

because I don't want them
to tell me when to retire.

Cavett:
He told me at the camp
that you sleep

-with a teddy bear in your bed.
-(audience laughs)

Now, I don't make these
things up, you know.

-Frazier: That's what he said?
-Cavett: This guy tells me this.

Let's be friends for one minute,
just to get him.

-No, come on. Please!
-(laughter, applause)

No, come on!
Oh, no. No!

These are my good things.

-Ali: Let's show him--
-Cavett: Oh, what?

-Frazier: Pick him up.
-Cavett: Fellas, I really
don't appreciate this.

It's unnecessary.

-What time is it? It's...
-(audience cheering,
applauding)

-Ali: Let me tell
you something...
-Cavett: Oh, no!

Let me tell you something.
Let me tell you something.

Cavett:
I looked over at
a monitor and I saw this,

and I wondered if these
were my last moments.

(audience whistling, applauding)

Ali: That was
not in the script!

-Take my pulse.
-Ali: That was unrehearsed!
That was my idea!

Cavett: I saw that
up on the screen.

-It looked like
a giant Oreo cookie.
-(audience laughing)

(applauding, whistling)

Joe didn't have
the same intensity

as he had in the first fight,

so it was a relatively
lackluster

12-round decision for Ali

in a fight that was
lacking in action.

Cavett: Has anyone besides
Patterson ever won back

a heavyweight
championship?

-Uh... no. I think--
-Cavett: He's
probably the only one.

What would be so unusual
about me winning mine back,

-when I do...
-(laughter)

...is that Patterson fought
Ingemar Johansson.

Ingemar Johansson
surprisingly knocked him out,

and the next year,
he came back and won.

But my title was taken
after the draft trouble...

uh, from the government
or whoever took it--
the boxing authorities.

-Cavett: Mm-hmm.
-And then for four years,
I was out.

And then, they created
James Ellis and Joe Frazier.

Ellis beat--
Frazier beat Ellis,

-then Frazier was
the homemade champion.
-Cavett: Yeah.

Then Frazier held it
for a while, then I came
back to fight Frazier,

but I had never really lost it.

And then, I think, I won
that fight, it was so close,

and physically,
took the worst punishment.

Now, since Frazier,
it's been probably some three

to four years before
I get another shot at it,

and then I'm fighting
a man like George Foreman,

who's younger and stronger

than the first Liston
that I fought.

Now I'm 10 years older
than I was when I fought
the first Liston.

So, if I beat a man better
than that first Liston I fought,

and I'm 10 years older,
that makes me triple great.

Hauser:
He might've peaked in Zaire
when he fought George Foreman.

That was probably the best
he was after the layoff.

But then you see the fights
go on and on and on.

Some people really
fearing for Ali...

of whether this young,
strong, unbeaten Foreman

was the kind of force of nature
that even Ali couldn't overcome.

Everybody was saying

Foreman's gonna kill him.
Foreman's gonna destroy him.

This is Sonny Liston
reincarnated 10 years younger.

Ali said to me once that the...

fight that he was
at his best as a fighter in
was Cleveland Williams.

The fight that was
the best for fans was
Ali-Frazier three in Manila.

But the fight that
meant the most to him

was beating
George Foreman in Zaire.

Punches that used
to miss Ali by, uh,

you know, this much
or this much,

he was hit solid shots
by the heavy-hitting--

maybe the hardest puncher
in heavyweight history,

next to maybe Joe Louis,

Earnie Shavers,
the Acorn, as Ali called him,
he was a tremendous puncher.

Ali got hit flush a lot
of punches in that fight,

and that fight went
the full 15 rounds.

Teddy Brenner opined
in the New York Post
and elsewhere

that Ali has to quit now.

Of course, Ali ignored that.

The people around Ali wanted
to keep milking him,

and, uh, you know,
I didn't see Herbert Muhammad

or anybody else that had
a hand in Muhammad Ali's pocket

ever push him
towards retirement.

Look, Ali had many
chances to retire,

but that's not what
most athletes do.

Most fighters are defined
by being fighters.

It's their life.
It's... the way they live.

It's what they do.

The last time I saw you
on television was with me,

I mean, the last time
we worked together.

No, not the last time,
but the time before that,

you had been beaten
still another time, and, uh...

I don't mean to bring up
an unpleasant memory.

-How are you? (chuckles)
-(audience laughs)

-Pretty good.
-Say, let me ask you
a quick and sudden question.

There's something
here in the paper

as we sit here now...

"Leon Ducking Ken."

Do those names ring a bell,
and what's going on here?

Well, as you know, Leon Spinks
is the new champion...

-Yeah.
-...for about another
four months.

-(audience laughs)
-And, um...

-Cavett: He has the--
-(cheers, applause)

Six months,
eight months,

-whatever the time--
-He has the title "temporary
champion of the world."

And Ken Norton is
one of the top contenders.

-He's actually the number
two contender for the crown...
-Mm-hmm.

...and he believes that
he deserves a new shot

at the crown, which
nothing's wrong with that.

-Yeah.
-And Leon Spinks is offered

a million five hundred thousand
dollars for fighting Norton.

Norton's offered 200,000.

He's offered five million
for fighting me,

so it's not hard for him
to make up his mind.

Plus, not only is
he offered five million,

but the world wanna see me
go after the crown

-for the third time
and make triple history.
-Yes.

Plus, the whole country
so, um...

But you're here
to reveal tonight

that you're never
going to fight again.

-(audience chuckling)
-Did I get it wrong?

I know another
interviewer

who gets paid
for being an idiot.
What's your excuse?

(laughter)

Every day, he was sparring

and wearing the little
rubber headgear,

which doesn't do much
to shield you from the punch.

You're still-- Your brains
are getting punched in.

To watch, as I was growing up,
watch him deteriorate

in terms of those skills,
take these beatings,

to me, it was like, wow,

I believe he can beat anybody.
He can do anything.

But then, you're constantly
brought back to Earth,

and then you start to worry
about his condition, so...

at that point,
you just start to think,

why is he getting
back in the ring?

And then you hear horrible
things, you know, how he's
getting ripped off by Don King,

he didn't have money,
this and that.

You think, gosh,
Superman's looking tattered!

But...

it's more than Superman
looking human.

It's the icon being
eclipsed by reality.

Boxers usually have
the image of being
illiterates or not smart.

Do you know how smart Spinks
has gotta be to whup me

and to plan his battle--

Something like
Einstein I would think.

-Yes, it is amazing.
-And to know when to come in,
the window-- It's not easy.

I liked the fact that you
didn't say I was robbed,

even though there were--
Well, nobody thought you--

Yeah, some people did
feel you were.

In fact, there was
a little anxiety there

when the decision was
a split decision.

I watch a lot of events.
I watch boxers, I watch
wrestlers, ballplayers.

It's a bad thing
when a person lose--

"No, I was robbed! No!
No, they took it from me!"

-It's not gonna help you.
The decision has been made.
-No class.

They're not
gonna reverse it.

Then the people say, boy, look
at him suffering and grieving.

-If you lose, you lose.
-Yeah.

I lost the fight.

The battle plan was wrong,

and the man won,
and just get ready to come back.

See, I've been on top so long,

it's good to fall
sometime to realize where I was,

so I can come back
and really appreciate it.

So sometimes,
I don't mind getting beat.

I could probably
name on one hand

fighters that retired
when they should've retired.

It just doesn't--
Athletes that retire,

they all think they have
another game left.

They have another fight left.

It's natural that he and I fight
again because people just

are not yet ready to believe
that Muhammad Ali's finished.

What will I do when I retire?

What will you do
when you lose the show?

(audience laughs)

-Oh, I don't know.
I'll probably get--
-I mean, when you quit the show.

Probably go to work for
whoever's heavyweight
champion at that time.

I like to defy odds,
do the impossible...

-Cavett: That appeals to you?
-...perform miracles.

Yeah. I'm finished now,
all washed up.

To be champion a third time--

no man has won
the title three times.

-No man in history.
-Floyd Patterson was
the first to win it twice,

and I was second,
but three times?

Records are made to be broken,
they say, and records are
continually being broken.

But to win the championship
three times,

I'll bet for the next
100 years, 200 years,

I don't think nobody'd ever come
back and win it three times,

so I'm gonna do the impossible.

I wasn't surprised that Ali beat
Spinks in their rematch,

because I think, by
that time in his career,

Ali was either
unwilling or unable

to do the kind of
serious training

that he needed to do,

unless he was
fighting an opponent

he had the highest respect for.

Where do you feel
the age, really?

You said in one interview that

when you get up there
around the 9th, 10th,
11th, 12th round,

at age 36, you start to feel it.

Where? Is it literally hard to
keep the arms up at that point?

No. Things you see
that you wanna do,

you can't do it. Like,
we're right here, right?

And I'm right-- I should
really hit you, right?

-Yeah--
-And then I throw one,

and it lands right there,
and I miss you.

Yeah. You can still
do that, luckily.

Well, with you,
the wind from the punch
would knock you down.

-The wind--
-Yeah, I heard you.

-I was just thinking about it.
-(laughter)

But usually, your reflexes,
your timing...

-Cavett: Yeah.
-...you see punches coming,
you can't get away quick enough.

More people are coming
out of retirement,

even as we sit here,
someone else is.

Foreman is coming out.
Frazier's coming out.

You know something
I thought about?

If George Foreman was told that
he's got to fight me again,

-he would stay in retirement.
-(laughter)

If you told Joe Frazier
to fight George Foreman,

-he would stay in retirement.
-(laughter)

If you told Norton
he's gotta face Foreman,

-he would retire!
-(laughter)

I'd be left
all alone again.

♪ ♪

I didn't want to see
him fight Larry Holmes.

I felt that he had
nothing else to prove.

I was all for him
fighting Larry Holmes.

What happens happens, done.

When you had to stop that fight,
did you want to stop it earlier?

Yes. I wanted to stop it.

After the fifth round,
I told him. He said, okay.

See, he had told me
before he was gonna wear
the guy out the first five.

And I said to myself, "Well,
okay, the first five are over.

Let's start throwing
some punches."

But there was nothing to throw,
he was an empty shell.

He didn't have nothing.

I don't wanna belittle
the performance of Holmes

-'cause he's a good fighter.
-Cavett: Mm-hmm.

But the kid had
nothing that night.

-This happens to every fighter.
-Williams: It was depressing.

It was just heartbreaking
because you think

if he had left a little earlier,

if there was a way
that he had had...

not only the money,
but the sense of confidence

that he was larger than life
in the American mind,

and specifically
for black people,

that he would've understood
there were other ways for him

to stay current,
to stay popular,
to stay relevant.

I thought he had no
chance to beat Holmes,

but there's an old
saying in boxing:

Every great fighter has
one great fight left in them.

And people had that...

that reel in their minds of

the great fights and the great
comebacks that Ali had,

and some people
gave him a chance,

but I didn't see how he
was gonna handle Holmes,

who had been
his sparring partner

for him way back in the day.

Here's a man who
conquered the world,

stood up to US government.

How can you tell him that this
other mountain that he's gonna

climb and conquer he can't do?

And I think it hurt

Larry as much as it
did anybody else.

And to see this gladiator,

who had caught
lightning in a jar,

just get to where he
was almost defenseless,

it was a very sad night.

-Do you want him to fight again?
-Dundee: No.

No, I think it's wrong
for him to fight again.

There's nothing to prove,

and especially if you're
fighting a lesser guy.

Dundee was worried
about Ali, clearly.

He was an intelligent man.

And he stayed along
right up to that last

dreadful fight.

Marley:
I was at the last fight
with Trevor Berbick

down in the Bahamas.
Ali won four rounds,

Berbick won six.

Ali could barely walk.

Did he need money? Maybe.

You always have
excuses, right?

So, it took one more bad fight

to realize...

for the world to realize,
come on.

This is not what we wanna see.

Maybe his problems started when

Earnie Shavers shook him up.

Would the Holmes fight
have made any difference

in the long term?

We don't know.

Many fighters have gone there.

But it also throws into question

the whole boxing game.

We have to question the sort
of brutal sport where

people are beaten about
to the point where

they become disabled.

It's easy to have conflicted
feelings about boxing

because, obviously,

on a high level,
it is an art.

A marvelous athletic art.
On the other hand,

it's a brutal,
exploiting, and murderous,

crime-riddled game.

I spent a lot of time
with Muhammad Ali

in the late 1980s and 1990s.

The effects of
Parkinson's Syndrome

were very noticeable by then,

but he still had
a good quality of life.

And his feeling at that
point in time was that

his difficulty speaking bothered

other people more
than it bothered him.

He looked so great. This...

body was there still,

but it was hard for him to talk

and he didn't try
to talk publicly.

In my blogs that I write
for the New York Times,

my online column,

I devoted a couple
of them to Ali,

and people were really surprised

to find that
I used phrases like,

there was a time in my
life when it felt like

-he was my best friend.
-Ray Robinson didn't
actually jump the rope.

He just sort of did this with it
and he used to whistle.

He did that.

He was a great dancer,
put a lot of rhythm.

Just keep going, Dick.
Keep going. Don't stop.

I can't get both feet
over it at the same time.

Can I do it
backwards?

You do better backwards.
-(clapping)

Cavett:
Many scenes from my
life are with him,

-horsing around.
-Listen, the danger

-is of my hurting you.
-I've been wanting to do this
ever since I come on your show.

(laughter)

I treasure that.
It was just...

a wonderful feeling
to be around him.

He had a magic that was
palpable when you were with him.

-(applause)
-Ali: This is my son.

Cavett:
I thought you were doing
a ventriloquist act there.

(audience laughter)

You know, seriously,
knowing you

is one of the nicest
things of my life,

and that time you stayed at
my house overnight. Remember?

There was a documentary
Ali and I were in,

and it was shooting
out near my house

in the end of
Long Island, in Montauk.

After we finished, we went to
dinner at a restaurant there,

and it was getting to be near
bedtime, and I said to him,

hey, why don't you,
just for fun, stay
at my house tonight?

Thinking he'd laugh.

And he said, I wanna
see how you live.

-Yeah, yeah.
I was at your house.
-That's right.

-I slept in your bed.
-That's right.

(laughter)

So, I drove him to my house,

and put him in the bedroom.

So, I went and got his wife,
brought her back,

and when I got back,
I found out that my wife

had called from New York.

Let me tell you the story.
I was in Dick's bed.

The phone rang. Ring!

I said hello.
And the lady says,

(high-pitched):
"Hello?" I said hello.

She says, "I have
the wrong number."

-(laughter)
-Dick's wife.

And then she called back.
(laugh) Dick, she called back.

I figured it was something she
didn't know I was in the bed.

So, I said hello,
this is Muhammad Ali.
She said,

(high-pitched):
"Oh, yes. Oh yes.

Is Dick there?
Let me talk to Dick.
This is his wife."

-She must've been shocked.
-She was shocked because,

first of all, her voice
is lower than yours.

(laughter)

Cavett:
She said, "Well, Mr. Ali,

this is an honor. I will
put a plaque on that bed."

An offer she never made for me.

He was a wonderful
house guest. He...

treated me as an equal and...

(laughter)

Oh, I forgot. Wait a minute.

I forgot how you said you
wanted these done, but...

(laughter, applause)

I just did the one.

(laughter)

I'd like to think he would've
played with me as a kid

if we were the same age
and shared a playground.

And sometimes,
he seemed almost like

a brother to me.

Ali...

was at the Olympics,

and went up

with his hands trembling,
took that torch.

All kind of thoughts
went through my mind.

Cavett:
For some reason,
they hadn't told who

the big mystery figure
was going to be.

Who would get this
incredible honor?

And then, literally,
it was like

dramatic to see

the shaking hand,

this figure emerging,
Muhammad Ali.

And for me, I gotta
tell you, I cried, man.

It was unbelievable!

Cavett:
I remember my heart
ached for him and...

for those of us
who loved him.

Here's a guy fighting
through his illness

to hold up a torch
for everybody else.

Here's a guy trembling.

It meant so much to me

that the American people
would select Muhammad Ali.

'Cause to me,
you know, it's Superman,

but it's also in terms
of racial identity.

So powerful.

America comes to
peace with itself

about race and about change.

And when he held up that torch,

it was a victory
over the disease.

It was a victory
over being rejected

and isolated because
of your political

and religious view.

There's one man that
represents who we are...

modern America.

In terms of our race relations,
but even beyond that,

in terms of our aspirations,

what it means to be great.

And that one person
would be Muhammad Ali.

Unbelievable to me.

♪ ♪

And I think unbelievable
to lots of other people.

Black, white,

Asian, Hispanic.

It was like...

the American...

promise fulfilled
in that moment.

He really was holding up
a torch for the, for the,

for the strength and victory
of the human spirit.

That's what he has
come to represent.

He had become bigger

than he ever could've imagined.

Bigger than boxing, bigger than
the heavyweight championship.

He was, in some ways,
my best friend

because, in a unique way,

he was my best friend in that

no other friends of mine
resemble him in any way.

He just seemed to have all...

good qualities.

And in a way,
he remained a big kid.

In some ways, to his detriment,

but what a guy.

Hmm.

("Forever Young"
by Bob Dylan playing)

♪ May God bless
and keep you always ♪

♪ May your wishes
all come true ♪

♪ May you always
do for others... ♪

It's funny to think that
I knew you 10 years ago

when you were
young and immodest.

(laughter)

Here you are now.
Remember how you used to be

a loud-mouthed,
bragging jackass?

-Right. Well...
-(laughter)

-Remember...
-(laughter)

I'm your main man,
remember?

(laughter)

-Not no more you ain't.
-No no! Please,
don't take it back.

-Brothers, get him!
-No, no!

(laughter)

♪ Forever young ♪

♪ Forever young ♪

Ali:
I'm surprised that you're
in such good shape.

Don't see a bit of fat.
Nothing but bone.

♪ Forever young ♪

♪ May you grow up
to be righteous ♪

♪ May you grow up
to be true ♪

♪ May you always
know the truth ♪

♪ And see the lights
around me and you ♪

(indistinct)

-(laughter)
-We have a message...

♪ May you always
be courageous ♪

♪ Stand upright... ♪

-Frazier: Good night.
-No, you can't leave!

-Cavett: Oh, get him
back here, will you?
-Ali: No, we can't leave yet!

Can't be walking off
the show. That's not right--

(audience jeering)

♪ Forever young ♪

An enormous number
of people,
black people usually,

came to me and said, boy,
when Muhammad said you...

-you were his main man,
that was it.
-Helped you out. Helped you out.

-Now you...
-(laughter)

-What's that?
-Now you can walk
through Harlem.

(laughter)

♪ Forever young ♪

♪ May your hands
always be busy ♪

♪ May your feet
always be swift ♪

♪ May you have
a strong foundation ♪

♪ When the winds
of changes shift ♪

♪ May your heart
always be joyful ♪

♪ May your song
always be sung ♪

♪ And may you stay ♪

♪ Forever young ♪

♪ Forever young ♪

♪ Forever young ♪

♪ May you stay ♪

♪ Forever young ♪

When are you going
into the movies, Ali?

I don't go into movies,
brother, because the movies

that the black people
make are belittling.

-And they're not good.
-(applause)

The movies that they
allow black people to make

is a big trick bag, and the rest
of them don't see it.

So, movies like...

the title,
Cotton Come To Harlem...

(laughter)

Nigga Charlie,

Cleopatra Jones...

What's this judo
picture out now?
Black judo picture called

-Judo Jones or something.
-(laughter)

Movies like--
All kind of movies

showing prostitution,
showing dope.

Negroes in Cadillacs.
They don't make movies--

I'm not gonna make a movie
until it's like Charlton Heston.

(punching)

-Dick Cavett, come here.
-Cavett: No... Wait a minute.

-This is the slow bag?
What do you call this?
-No, this is the heavy bag.

-The heavy bag?
-This is where I build up
my hitting power.

-Can't you hurt yourself?
-This is for stamina.

-Oh!
-It's not for speed,
it's for power.

This bag weighs about
twice as much as you, Dick.

-Oh, that's hard to imagine.
-Sixty pounds.

(barks)