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BELLS RING
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FLOOR POLISHER WHIRS
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INDISTINCT CHATTER
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- ..beautiful style of this picture...
- Yeah.
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Wow.
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Mum.
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Mum!
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Let's go.
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Ashley, let's go.
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Right here...
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We know but I think it's worth our trying to remember
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that the Middle Ages were religious,
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profoundly religious in a way that we can't really conceive nowadays.
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I want you now to imagine if you can
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that you are inside that church which you see as a model
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and into which this altarpiece was once placed.
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No big windows, obviously no electric light
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but a space like this with very narrow windows.
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The light would be filtering in.
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You're not in the National Gallery, you're inside that church -
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low light, maybe the sound of chanting,
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maybe the sound of prayers being spoken slowly.
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The smell of incense used to carry up the prayers of the faithful
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to the heavenly realm,
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and if you will now just imagine
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that you are looking at this painting by the light of candles,
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candles which flicker,
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candles which would shine against the gold,
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and you might think... Cos remember you can't read, you can't write,
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the year is 1377, your houses are too hot in summer,
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too cold in winter, death is part of the threnody of everyday life,
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people are dying all the time,
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you might think to yourself,
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"If I'm good, I can perhaps get up to the kingdom everlasting
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"where all is good, great and golden."
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I think another thing might also happen -
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by the flickering candlelight,
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you might think that these figures were moving.
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If they were moving, they were real and could hear your prayer
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and intercede for you with Christ and the Virgin in heaven.
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The painting would be acting as a sacramental channel
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from earth to heaven,
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and in a sense, that's how this painting worked.
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I don't mean to make this sound as crude perhaps as I am
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but if you will for a moment just imagine
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that I've brought from my pocket
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a picture of a sweet, grey, fluffy kitten
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and I've pinned it here and I've said,
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"Here are the darts. Aim for the eyes of the grey, fluffy kitten."
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It's just a bit of paper
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but in some way, you feel that you might,
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in a peculiar way you can't quite explain,
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be hurting some fluffy kitten somehow, somewhere.
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I'm not suggesting to you that in the year 1377 or any time onwards,
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people felt, "Oh!
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"They're moving, they're real, they can hear me,"
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but with the same kind of grey, fluffy kitten analogy,
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I am suggesting to you that there is a very strong attachment
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between a representation and the thing itself.
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We're now in the National Gallery having a look quite quietly,
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thinking about aesthetics and gold
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and colours made from ground pigment,
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but what we must remember is
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how this was originally intended to be seen.
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I've tried to pool together my first thoughts.
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I don't mean this to be a criticism...
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I don't know, I'm quite keen on criticism.
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I'm also just trying to be very open here.
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I think what comes out of it is that as an organisation,
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I suppose that's probably a bit why I'm here,
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our public voice is quite weakly represented
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when we have forums together and we're talking about things.
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I kind of tried to chunk that up this morning
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of how does that manifest itself.
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One is that just quite simply
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I still find it quite amazing that we don't really talk much
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about the public and the visitors,
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but actually I don't think that when it comes to
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a lot of what we talk about in some of our meetings
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that actually are talking about communications out to the public,
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we're not necessarily focusing on those 5.2 million people
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and their needs as much as I think we could be and should be.
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It would be good to think that we could foster a culture
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where we focus a little bit more on what are our public needs
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- and how are we meeting them.
- Yeah.
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I was thinking, my next little diagram -
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this was all three o'clock in the morning,
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rites of consciousness stuff -
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I was thinking if we are the National Gallery
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and we are talking about old masters at our heart
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and we are a number of things -
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we're conservation, research, preservation,
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heritage all around the collection and education of it...
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We are also a visitor attraction
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and I know that word's horrid but we are also that.
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If our mission is to make our old masters
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more central to modern cultural life,
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I think there needs to be more of that dialogue around the audience
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as the centre as well. Still having art at the centre
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but it's like another bubble that comes off
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where we're looking at those audience needs and the conversations,
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we'll talk about how are people reacting with us emotionally
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in terms of their pleasure, in terms of intellectualism,
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in terms of the academic side,
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in terms of self-development spiritually...
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Those kind of conversations can then help inform the decision-making
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that we're doing in meetings like that Titian meeting yesterday.
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Now, I thought that meeting yesterday was fantastic
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and I think the outcome was absolutely right
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but I think going forward,
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it would be good if we could have more conversation about the audience
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and what their needs are and what our communications need to reflect...
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Going forward, alongside what we want to say about the art,
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we also need to be thinking the end person
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that's going to see our communications...
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- Yeah.
- What are their needs?
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I've found some of the meetings that we have, particularly the, sort of...
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You know, very large meetings
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where perhaps a curator is standing up and talking about a subject -
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it's fantastic but there needs to be the other dialogue
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that goes on that then carries it on
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so we're not just seeing it from what's our perspective
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but what's the perspective of the people
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that are actually going to see what we're trying to show them,
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as it were, through our exhibitions and marketing and stuff.
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My hope -
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and if there's this opportunity to talk about one's vision going forward
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with the trustees in June -
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my hope is that we can make that dialogue more central
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to what we're doing at exec and in some of our exhibition meetings.
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On my side, I'm trying to imbue the marketing and PR side
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with more of that stepping back
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and actually looking at things from the audience point of view.
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It's a question of balance.
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I'm trying to get perhaps a more balanced view
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where our processes enable us to look at the end users' needs
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alongside the curatorial needs.
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Well, I understand all this
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and I would like to have some examples of where you've felt
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we've failed or...
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Because we haven't...
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Erm, er...
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Done this.
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A lot of what we do is absolutely beautiful in terms of exhibitions,
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lovely when it comes to the marketing,
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we have beautiful imagery, absolutely gorgeous high-quality,
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but I think because we're sometimes not going through that process
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of thinking of it from the audience perspective,
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we sometimes don't do that,
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what's crudely called in marketing, a call to action.
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We don't say this is the reason why you must come and see it.
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Now, with something like Leonardo, it does it itself.
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- It just does it itself.
- Yeah.
- Everybody wants to come and see it.
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- And you could argue we should have done less...
- No, no,
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Leo isn't a good example. You've just got up that beautiful picture
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and everybody wants to come and see it -
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but other things, we need to actually make them come alive
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in a different way because people don't get it immediately.
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They don't understand what we offer.
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It's part of that conversation we had a few days ago
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about what does the National Gallery represent.
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When you look at the research that we've done recently,
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people loved the National Gallery
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when they get here, and they understand it,
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but to the average person on the street as it were,
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they don't quite understand what we are and what we've got.
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The fact that we've got these amazing paintings, they don't get it
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cos we're quite discreet in how we tell them that.
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You know, I do have some prejudices to overcome.
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What I don't want is to end up with the gallery...
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erm...
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producing things to the lowest common denominator of public taste,
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but I don't even want the average...
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I mean, I'd rather have spectacular success followed by...
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erm, er...
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a sort of really interesting failure
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than have, kind of, average.
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In fact, I'm quite in favour of those things going up and down.
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OK, thanks.
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I'm going to try something a little bit new today
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which is because the painting is rather more abstract
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than most of the ones we talk about,
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so we're going to have a bit of a go with some touch drawings.
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I made a very simple sketch of the main structures of the picture
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and then put it through this very exciting machine
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that heats it up and then it all goes furry.
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I don't know whether it's going to work for you
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but I just thought it was worth a try
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and that it might help some people get the overall structure
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of the picture, which is not a narrative painting
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or a painting with great detail.
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The abstract shapes within it are quite useful to get a sense of.
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Then we'll move on to a normal reproduction as well.
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- I'll pass those around.
- Thank you.
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Raised image here.
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One here.
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Professor Whitestick, I'll be back in a minute.
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Raised image here.
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Today, we're talking about Camille Pissarro's Boulevard Montmartre At Night.
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It was made in 1897, so just over 100 years ago.
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Certainly, the viewpoint he takes -
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which is a viewpoint from a hotel window,
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high above, an aerial viewpoint of these streets -
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adds to this sense of someone who is a little bit distant.
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Whereas his colleagues would have a viewpoint like that
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but include somehow a sense of themselves,
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even if it was just a bit of balcony or whatever,
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here you get no sense of the window frame, no sense of his presence.
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The whole thing is viewed at a distance.
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The particular painting we're looking at
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is one of a whole series of 14 of the Boulevard Montmartre.
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He went for these big campaigns, painting a lot of pictures at once,
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trying to capture the changing light effect
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so he might have several paintings on the go.
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This is an exceptional one because it's the only night-time one.
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His work's always a little bit dappled, you might say,
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and full of little brushstrokes, but in this one,
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nothing is very clear because it's dark and it's been raining.
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All the things that can be seen are merged together
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in this great watery pool of colour, light and shape.
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What we're thinking about is the general structure of the picture.
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We're thinking about it a bit like a flag.
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You're seeing an aerial view of a street scene.
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At the front of the picture is an upside-down V,
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going in towards the middle.
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It's a flag divided in to four triangles.
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The bottom upside-down V triangle is the street,
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it's basically a great whoosh of space leading towards
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the point where all the triangles converge
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which is exactly halfway down the picture.
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The right-hand side is a V with its apex meeting the disappearing point
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and then the left-hand side is a triangle along its left-hand side
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and then the top is a real V
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and that of course represents the sky.
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Take both your hands and put them at the top of the picture
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and then come down a bit.
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If you go from the top corners and then down a little bit,
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then move your hands inwards and downwards,
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following the diagonals.
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Can you feel the tops of the buildings?
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I've only put the main forms in and above that is an empty space
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which is a beautiful, deep, soft, smoky, dark bluey mauve
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that dominates the painting. That's the sky.
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Take that line of the tops of the buildings
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and go to where the two lines meet.
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Do you see that they meet at a sort of bubble where the lines converge?
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Yes?
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That's the disappearing point
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and he punctuates that with a tiny little dot of light.
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Overall, it's a really dark picture.
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It's almost like a semi-transparent curtain's been drawn over the whole scene
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and it's very much night-time,
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00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:55,320
and yet, it's punctuated all over the place by these flares of light.
254
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,560
They emphasise the structure
255
00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,880
and give a sense of excitement of this city scene
256
00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,080
which is a great characteristic of this picture.
257
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:06,880
Not surprisingly,
258
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,160
the furthest light of a great line of streetlights,
259
00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:16,480
the furthest light is at the point where all these triangles converge.
260
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:23,080
It's almost like a sort of great symphony to light in darkness there.
261
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,320
There are all these people out there on the street.
262
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,280
I've read people trying to make something of this
263
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:31,960
being something to do with his anarchism as well.
264
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,840
Certainly, in the paintings where you can see more clearly,
265
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:41,200
the daylight pictures, he does make... He does ensure
266
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,720
that he defines the different people and their different social class.
267
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:46,600
You'll see people with top hats,
268
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:51,240
you see people who are selling things, you know, you see all sorts.
269
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:56,480
In this picture, you don't get that because it's all so ill-defined.
270
00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,280
He is unlike many of his colleagues
271
00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,840
in that he does show all strata of society.
272
00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,360
INDISTINCT CHATTER
273
00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,000
FOOTSTEPS
274
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,160
Remember to keep looking around you, always look around.
275
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,400
Be careful, guys, let's go nice and slowly.
276
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,800
Don't run, I don't want you to fall over.
277
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,120
It doesn't have a magic carpet next to it but it is the painting.
278
00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:49,720
Please have a seat.
279
00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:57,640
This is the story of Moses.
280
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,120
It's the story about how a little baby boy is sent down the river
281
00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:02,640
and then picked up again,
282
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,240
given to the princess who gives it back to the mother.
283
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,480
He grows up to be an amazing and fantastic person.
284
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,000
Now, if you like the story of Moses,
285
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,920
you might like to see more stories about Moses
286
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,760
and there are lots of other stories about Moses in the National Gallery
287
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,280
but if you think to yourself,
288
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,480
"I've had it up to here with Moses, I'm sick of Moses.
289
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:25,760
I want to see somebody else,"
290
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,480
there's lots of other stories that you might want to learn about
291
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,400
in the National Gallery. There are people writing,
292
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,040
there are people eating and being surprised,
293
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,320
there are people... You might not believe this
294
00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,320
but there's an old man over there who's being fed by ravens.
295
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,760
There's a raven, a little black bird that's giving him his food -
296
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,480
All these amazing stories in National Gallery paintings
297
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:49,840
for you to see.
298
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:05,320
This is a portrait which was commissioned by Henry
299
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:10,760
to fulfil another one of his demands, really, as I said,
300
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:16,920
to almost meet Christina by proxy through the medium of the portrait
301
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,520
so that he could decide whether he wanted to marry her.
302
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:26,120
Holbein is dispatched to Brussels in March 1538.
303
00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:31,080
This is following the death of Henry VIII's third wife, Jane Seymour,
304
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:37,000
and Henry is desperately trying to identify a suitable fourth wife.
305
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,760
Holbein arrives, Hans Holbein,
306
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,680
sent by the King of England to paint a portrait
307
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,200
on the understanding that if it satisfies the King,
308
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,240
she's then going to go over to London
309
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,520
and become the Queen of England.
310
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,280
Henry is said to have fallen in love with it
311
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:59,720
and to have been very, very keen to arrange the marriage...
312
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:01,560
but that doesn't happen.
313
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:06,200
There's an anecdotal statement - we don't know whether this is true -
314
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,840
that Christina herself said to the English envoy,
315
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,080
"If I had two heads,
316
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,560
"one should be at the disposal of the King of England."
317
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,480
It seems that she herself had a sense
318
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,000
that this wouldn't necessarily be a good match for her,
319
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,840
and ultimately, Henry gave up.
320
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,680
This is a very simple picture in its composition.
321
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,560
The frontal pose is very deliberate here
322
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:36,400
so that Henry could actually see exactly what she looked like -
323
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:41,000
no profile view that's hiding any blemishes or imperfections.
324
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,200
The use of light across the features again is very, very subtle
325
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:50,920
and carefully modulated so that there's a hint of an expression,
326
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,280
there's a hint of animation in her features.
327
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:58,240
She seems to be ever so subtly, wryly observing the artist
328
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,200
as she observes him.
329
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,400
I always feel looking at this painting, this portrait,
330
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,280
that this really is a young woman
331
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:09,520
fully in possession of her faculties, very intelligent,
332
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,400
squarely facing the world
333
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,960
and ready for anything that the world might throw at her.
334
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,160
I'll stop there and say thank you very much and goodbye.
335
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,920
How did Leonardo da Vinci start off with a blank panel
336
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:24,960
and a palette of oil paints
337
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:29,760
and create a painting of such sublime beauty?
338
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,960
If you just look at that flower in the corner there,
339
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,840
how did that happen?
340
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,760
It's this wonderful mixture of observation and imagination.
341
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,160
What was in the artist... What was Velazquez's intention
342
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,320
on painting Venus with her back to us
343
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,880
but with that bewitching look in the mirror?
344
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,360
And how did Stubbs achieve
345
00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:58,640
such an anatomically accurate representation of a horse?
346
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,240
This painting is huge,
347
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,560
so physically, there must have been great challenges in painting it
348
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,520
but artistically, look at the detail,
349
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,080
look at the observation that the artist was able to represent.
350
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,640
What was in van Gogh's mind
351
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,080
when he painted this glorious vase of sunflowers
352
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,440
with its brilliant use of colour to convey mood?
353
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,360
Just look at the number of colours that are in this painting.
354
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:27,680
It's really yellow and green
355
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,760
but with this amazing blue stripe through it
356
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,880
and a blue frame to the vase.
357
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,960
How does that use of blue,
358
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,080
juxtaposed against that great splurge of yellow,
359
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,400
represent something in the artist's mind?
360
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,560
All of it really is about looking and about reflecting
361
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,200
and about learning ways to decode paintings
362
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,640
and understand what the artist's intention was.
363
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,560
However you look at a painting -
364
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,920
whether it's through a very art historical perspective
365
00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:02,440
or whether it's through looking at its history
366
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,560
and how it came to be at the gallery,
367
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,680
or whether it's through looking at colour or form or composition -
368
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,480
this gallery provides you with wonderful opportunities
369
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,000
to explore the human condition.
370
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,000
We hope with Take One Picture
371
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,360
that it's not just about knowledge and learning,
372
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:22,680
that's one half of it. The other half of it
373
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,160
is finding your own creative response to the paintings,
374
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,840
finding ways in which these paintings have a relevance to you today.
375
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,080
I think many of you will go back in to your schools
376
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:39,640
and find a whole myriad of ways to give your pupils
377
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,920
the chance to do this very same exploration.
378
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,520
No, it's nice to see it up here.
379
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,000
I think that you should make a proposal...
380
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,640
- Treatment proposal?
- ..that it be cleaned, yeah, yeah.
- Oh.
381
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,400
- But for... Well, that's...
- Just state that it would benefit
382
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,560
- from a good cleaning and restoration.
- Mmm.
383
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,840
I'm bothered by all the retouching...
384
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,160
Up here, I'm bothered by all the retouching,
385
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,040
evident retouching, in the mantle of the Madonna, of the blue.
386
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,840
- Yeah, yeah, but it's...
- But which is not nearly so but I do see that.
387
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,560
- Her mouth looks terrible.
- I can also...
388
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:10,760
- Yeah.
- Is this retouching or is it crazed varnish?
389
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,720
- Crazed varnish.
- That's just crazed varnish.
390
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,440
- Similarly here around her mouth.
- Yeah.
391
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,200
Actually, look, that's ground - that sort of honey colouring...
392
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,000
- He's dragged the lighter colour across...
- Yeah.
- ..there's a little orangey bit in there.
393
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,960
- That's ground, absolutely.
- Yes, yes.
394
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:24,600
- Yep.
- Mmm.
395
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,760
- Not retouching.
- No.
396
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,480
This is the story of Samson and Delilah -
397
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:55,560
Old Testament story in which we are told how the Philistines
398
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,560
want to bring down the power of the Israelites
399
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,120
and in particular, to break Samson.
400
00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:06,000
They are going to advance their secret weapon, Delilah,
401
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:12,320
and have her seduce Samson so that they can destroy the Israelites.
402
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,560
In a sense, you've got a spy story -
403
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:21,000
you've got the beautiful spy going off to sleep with the enemy.
404
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,040
In the biblical account, we're told how time after time,
405
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,600
she goes to his campaign tent all decked up and looking gorgeous,
406
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:33,480
trying to find out where his strength lies.
407
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:38,320
Time after time after time, he lies,
408
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:43,760
but his desire for her becomes so great that bit by bit,
409
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,480
visit after visit,
410
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:51,320
he finally tells her.
411
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:56,240
I want all of you to imagine that you are a spy
412
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,360
and that you have been sent
413
00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:01,560
by your people, your tribe, your nation,
414
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:08,080
to be very nice and get secrets out of the enemy.
415
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,800
First of all, the enemy is the enemy
416
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:17,040
but after you've had a drink or two, a meal, chat with the enemy
417
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,360
and pretended to love the enemy,
418
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:23,680
you are beginning to feel differently towards the enemy.
419
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,680
What has been pretended..
420
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,080
might become real.
421
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,200
It messes with your mind.
422
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:36,480
I think Rubens, who is this painter of great psychological import,
423
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:42,080
has realised what's going on in the mind of Delilah.
424
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:48,320
She has pretended to and perhaps eventually come to feel love
425
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:53,760
and she has finally slept with Samson.
426
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,240
He has fallen asleep, this can happen...
427
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,480
LAUGHTER
428
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:04,800
She knows that this consummation of his desire
429
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,120
is going to lead directly to his death.
430
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,120
The Philistines are emerging through the open door there,
431
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,360
flames shining, reflecting on their armour.
432
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:21,080
We've got this hermetic sealant of curtain,
433
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,280
purple, rich purple curtain hanging,
434
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,560
the rich scarlet of her dress,
435
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:31,880
the gold of her cloak making this hot and rich.
436
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,760
Various light sources are adding to this, plus the covert haircut.
437
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,680
The candle is being held by this old woman
438
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:45,280
and very carefully, the barber is making his first incision.
439
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,200
We're not looking at a Delilah triumphant, she's not going,
440
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,600
"Yes, gotcha!" is she?
441
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,880
She's looking ambiguous.
442
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,720
She is bending tenderly over him with perhaps a look of dismay,
443
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,200
I'm not going to tell you what you think she's feeling,
444
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,040
we'll all read it differently, but her body is leaning away.
445
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,480
On the one hand, literally, on the left hand, there's a tender
446
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,480
gesture of hand on back, but the other hand is away from him.
447
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,800
It really is on the one hand and on the other.
448
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:24,000
She has, over the time that she has been trying to seduce Samson,
449
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,360
as any human being would,
450
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,280
gone through a series of mental transformations.
451
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,880
It must be very distressing now
452
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:38,760
to realise that the man that she has just had these relations with
453
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,560
is now going to die, directly,
454
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,000
as a consequence of her actions.
455
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,000
She has... And I'm hesitating to use this word.
456
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,480
She has betrayed him.
457
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,400
But then she must think to herself,
458
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:57,320
"But, no. I was working for my country.
459
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,640
"To have done otherwise would have been to betray my country."
460
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,320
It's about betrayal,
461
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,520
it's about notions of one's tribe, or people,
462
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,960
and about what, perhaps, might be
463
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,640
happening in the mind of anyone put into this kind of position.
464
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,840
But imagine, if you will, now,
465
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,880
going into the house of the Burgermeister
466
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,640
and seeing this above his fireplace.
467
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,280
And there you would be, with the Burgermeister,
468
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,000
with a rather large painting behind you
469
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,000
of Delilah with her breasts uncovered.
470
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,120
What would you say?
471
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,440
You have to view paintings,
472
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,600
or narrative paintings, as early films.
473
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,360
And as forms of entertainment.
474
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,040
So the artist has to decide at what point of the story
475
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:23,640
are they going...
476
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,400
Is he or she going to focus on?
477
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,040
So, again, when you come to your work,
478
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,320
when you've had all your different ideas, you have to sift through...
479
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,280
Which moment? What point?
480
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,560
What's the climax?
481
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,760
What, to you, is the most important thing you can communicate?
482
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,960
And how can you interpret that form of encounters,
483
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,440
experiences, or chance meetings, the best?
484
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,400
Paintings are very, very ambiguous.
485
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,480
You can look at them in one way,
486
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,280
you can interpret them in another.
487
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:53,920
And as your experiences change...
488
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:58,160
And I know, because I...come in here every day, paintings change.
489
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,560
And how you look at them changes as well.
490
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,280
Well, can we get straight on to and propose Sport Relief?
491
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,640
I don't see that the use of the portico for various purposes
492
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,400
is much different from the idea of projecting things
493
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,200
onto the front of the gallery,
494
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,320
which we've always resolutely objected to
495
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,080
on the grounds that it's a tremendous opportunity for us,
496
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,880
if we're doing something for the gallery.
497
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,080
I mean, there are various ways of looking at it,
498
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:55,680
but I think the right decision was
499
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,040
that we should not have people projecting things,
500
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,160
using our facade as a billboard, if you like,
501
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,320
because it diminishes the impact of any occasion
502
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,040
where we wish to do it.
503
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,280
But it also just looks as if we're up for sale, you know? Frankly.
504
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,200
I mean, I know there's an alternative way of looking at it,
505
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,880
which is that everyone gains publicity for the gallery,
506
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,600
but does it, actually, get the right type of publicity?
507
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,280
Right type of recognition?
508
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,400
This is the interesting question.
509
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:24,920
I'm inclined to say no.
510
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,560
Obviously, it's a very worthy
511
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,560
charity, but is it more worthy than 100 other charities?
512
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,920
One of the things we need to balance it, again,
513
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:33,440
is the profile aspect of it.
514
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,680
It is an opportunity for us, potentially,
515
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,920
to take a little bit more involvement, if you like,
516
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:39,480
in something that has the potential
517
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,640
to be broadcast to 18 million viewers.
518
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,520
And I think that's the balance, isn't it?
519
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,320
You know, is it...
520
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,520
Are we... Are we either happy not to align ourselves
521
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,200
with these chosen charities,
522
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,760
or do we think it's going to happen anyway?
523
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,840
Should we, perhaps, try and take a bit more ownership of it and...
524
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,200
Sorry, what's going to happen anyway?
525
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,000
Well, the event is going to happen anyway.
526
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,400
We weren't consulted about whether we wanted something
527
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,320
to obstruct access to the National Gallery.
528
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,520
We would never have said, "We want a marathon to end
529
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,080
"in front of the National Gallery."
530
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,040
Because a marathon... The end of a marathon
531
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:11,520
involves people on either side,
532
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,480
so you can't get into the National Gallery.
533
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,560
So, someone else has made the decision -
534
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,680
we're a great place for the end of a marathon.
535
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,560
That's... And now we're told it's going to happen anyway.
536
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,800
Well, I want to be involved in the decision as to whether
537
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,680
the National Gallery is the right place for ending a marathon.
538
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,560
And I'm not. Instead, someone else is making that decision -
539
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,640
"We're going to end the marathon in front of the National Gallery."
540
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,040
And then we're told, "Since it's going to happen anyway,
541
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,600
"and no-one will be able to get into the National Gallery,
542
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,600
"can we, in fact, have a marvellous photo opportunity to show that,
543
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,160
"in fact, the National Gallery is all about Sport Relief?"
544
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,880
I mean... And, also, you say, "chosen charities",
545
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,160
but who's going to choose them?
546
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,920
I do have a hell of a lot of requests for
547
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,480
the use of the National Gallery for charitable purposes.
548
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,840
One problem with this is also, you know,
549
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,520
the whole question of a charity -
550
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,280
erm, which we are -
551
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:07,120
using its facilities and everything, for another charity.
552
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,640
Which trustees would be very concerned about.
553
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,400
And, you know, it's always a worry of ours that...
554
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,200
You know, when people have asked if they can have charitable events
555
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,320
within the National Gallery, and we've always...
556
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,040
We don't do that, but we appear in the backdrop, with our banners,
557
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:23,200
like it or not.
558
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,360
And that's just part of the London...
559
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,440
That's part of that landmark.
560
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,280
So...
561
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,120
This race, I imagine, WILL end in Trafalgar Square.
562
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,120
Erm... And I...
563
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,840
You know, you can imagine the footage.
564
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:43,760
The filming of an individual running up towards Trafalgar Square,
565
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:44,880
to the north terrace...
566
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,400
We'll be in the backdrop.
567
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,280
I just feel that the National Gallery as a whole...
568
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,720
It closes the whole end of the square.
569
00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:55,320
And all these events are going on, all these things are being planned,
570
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,160
without us being properly involved.
571
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,680
And all we say is, at the last minute, you know,
572
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,400
"Well, it's going to happen anyway, so can we just use it?"
573
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:04,640
Gill, you're...
574
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,520
Yes, and I think we should use this,
575
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,440
and Greg and I go back to Westminster,
576
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,000
and just use this as an example
577
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,240
of things that they have to talk to us about,
578
00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:14,400
so we're much more joined up with them.
579
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:15,840
We need more notice on this.
580
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,080
So I think we should pick that up as an action point.
581
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,280
- If you support that.
- I totally do, yes!
582
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,080
And it would be a good example to be able to quote.
583
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,880
Erm... I supported Julie when we first heard about this,
584
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,360
because I thought the exposure is fantastic,
585
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,560
and it is very populist, it actually gets us to 18 million people,
586
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,040
and it is therefore a good association.
587
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,280
And my only concern in this is that, obviously,
588
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,560
it is setting a precedent in terms of charities. So, it does,
589
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,160
in associating with charities, to a degree...
590
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,640
That was the only struggle I've had with it.
591
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,200
How to, then, actually say no to other organisations.
592
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,680
Whereas, before, we could be very cut and... Very cut-and-dry on it.
593
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,360
But, outside of that, if you're able to get round that,
594
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,320
or felt that we could associate with it, and it was a one-off,
595
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,520
and that we'd not do this as a habit, I think it could be quite doable.
596
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,440
I mean, I would've thought, at this relatively early stage,
597
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,440
we'd be at a point where, if we wanted to do it,
598
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,040
we could work with them. So we actually make it possible.
599
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,600
So if it's only a half-hour shot of an interview,
600
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,080
and maybe one can keep the portico open
601
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,600
by having people directed through a different way...
602
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,480
I mean, I think, if we believed in it, we could make it happen.
603
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,600
And could you articulate what you think the National Gallery
604
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:22,840
gets out of it?
605
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:25,560
I think it's an associa...
606
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,520
I think it's, actually, because we do appear rather on our pedestal,
607
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,120
physically and literally,
608
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,880
it's actually a way to be there and seem to be...part of common culture.
609
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,480
And Sport Relief has a massive following,
610
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,640
and is very much for the nation, as it were.
611
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,360
Therefore, it is associating with something that gives
612
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,480
a lot of pleasure to a lot of people, is how I would rationalise it.
613
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,800
But I accept it is quite difficult in setting precedents with charities.
614
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,360
We do get many, many requests.
615
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,680
I think what they're looking for is either a no,
616
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,040
or a yes, in principle.
617
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:54,880
If the answer is yes, in principle,
618
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,400
then we can - Gill and I, or whomever -
619
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,080
work to shape that so that,
620
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,240
if we think we then need to get more out of it, if you like,
621
00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:03,520
we can be doing that.
622
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,280
Whether that's in terms of profile, or, actually, financially, as well.
623
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:08,960
OK, what about Chinese New Year?
624
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,640
Why shouldn't we be involved in that?
625
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,320
I mean, would you say yes to Chinese New Year?
626
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,440
Well, you don't have quite the same rationale
627
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:17,800
in terms of profile, do you?
628
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:19,320
It's a profile-raising thing.
629
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,880
It's different from other events that are happening,
630
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:26,200
simply because of the breadth of the reach you'd get.
631
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:27,680
Well, one criterion would be
632
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,720
how many millions are going to be actually watching it?
633
00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:32,800
I think it would be dangerous to suggest
634
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,400
that we're going to be able to get a lot of coverage, per se.
635
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:36,920
But on the other hand,
636
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,680
if we feel that, as per our corporate objectives,
637
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,960
we want to be seen as more approachable
638
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,680
in the bank-positive sense,
639
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,960
it is one way of doing it, for half an hour, once a year.
640
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,040
- Mm.
- So, you know, and if we said...
- That's interesting.
641
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,000
- ..it's not something we...
- That's a rather interesting one, Gill.
642
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,680
Half an hour every year... That's going to be one of our fences.
643
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:58,600
- Well, no...
- No, no, no, seriously!
644
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,840
We might say we will consider one thing a year
645
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:05,400
that supports something that is loved by the nation
646
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,240
and compatible, and for everyone.
647
00:40:07,240 --> 00:40:08,600
One could rationalise that.
648
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,920
And then we'd decide, if there wasn't an opportunity on certain years,
649
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:13,480
we wouldn't do it.
650
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,720
And we wouldn't do it if it causes a lot of disruption to our public.
651
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:18,880
But if there's something that's not going to,
652
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:20,800
and that we can work with Sport Relief
653
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,120
to make it minimum disruption to our visitors...
654
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,680
Let's talk about that, for a bit - the disruption.
655
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,920
Because we sat round this table and we were all sure
656
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,840
that we were going to work with Harry Potter, to make it work.
657
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,640
What actually happened was that, in fact,
658
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:36,640
the National Gallery was completely blocked,
659
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:38,520
and, in as much as it wasn't blocked,
660
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,160
people were just using the Sainsbury Wing
661
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,680
as a spectator-point in the gallery.
662
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,000
I think the gallery did probably make the right decision
663
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:48,480
about Harry Potter.
664
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:49,920
It was most unsatisfactory.
665
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:54,960
But, in fact, none of the sort of guarantees we were talking about,
666
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:56,720
erm,
667
00:40:56,720 --> 00:40:58,360
actually,
668
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,840
could be effectively implemented at the time.
669
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,680
We're talking about a certain type of advertising.
670
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,360
And when you see a football match on television
671
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:08,920
and you see these huge signs -
672
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,000
they're all about, you know, running shoes and things.
673
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,360
I mean, there's some sort of a relationship.
674
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,360
They're not about Goya and... Picasso, even.
675
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,880
So, it seems to me the more disparity that there is
676
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,480
between the different types of public which we,
677
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,120
for one thing or another...
678
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,640
the more it actually looks as if one is just short of cash.
679
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,480
I mean, in other words... Or is in desperate need of publicity.
680
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:31,640
I mean, I just don't know.
681
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,000
I just don't see how it's seriously going to...
682
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,240
The name National Gallery can be announced a lot,
683
00:41:36,240 --> 00:41:38,320
but what, in this context, would that do for us?
684
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,440
What does that tell people about what the National Gallery really is?
685
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,560
Secondly, you've got to continue with these negotiations, anyway.
686
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:07,960
One of the highlights of the gallery,
687
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,560
a painting that many people come along and see...
688
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,840
At some point in 1533, these two men, meeting as they did,
689
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,640
did what we might do were we to meet a fellow countrymen
690
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,040
in a foreign place - they had their picture taken.
691
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,400
Clearly, there's no handing a camera to a passer-by or a waiter.
692
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,840
The only way, until the advent of photography,
693
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:28,280
to have an image,
694
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,800
is to have a painter paint you.
695
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,280
They had money, they were wealthy,
696
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:37,920
they could pay for the best painter living in England
697
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,240
to capture their image,
698
00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:43,880
and the top painter living and working in London in 1533
699
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,200
was the German painter
700
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:47,960
Hans Holbein.
701
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:49,840
And, at some point, the three men -
702
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:54,080
Hans Holbein, Jean de Dinteville, Georges de Selve -
703
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,560
would have got together and discussed this composition.
704
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,000
They're the ones telling the painter what to do.
705
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,120
Probably, Jean de Dinteville having the greater say,
706
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,480
because it was his painting -
707
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,920
he paid, it went back to his chateau in Polisy,
708
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,880
and it could well be that Hans Holbein had no idea
709
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,480
of the whole significance of everything he was being asked to make.
710
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:24,400
I have a colleague who thinks this is all about a murder that took place.
711
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,760
And I look at it, and I say but, "Where? What?"
712
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:28,520
And he says, "I'm not telling you,
713
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:30,520
you'll steal my idea and publish it."
714
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,240
So, none of us knows what it is,
715
00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:34,640
but all we have is what we can go on.
716
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,880
And there is the lute case, the box -
717
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:42,160
the empty box, which perhaps reminds us of the coffin,
718
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:43,400
of death,
719
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,680
which is also alluded to here
720
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,560
by this distorted skull.
721
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,080
It's an example of anamorphosis.
722
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,640
You look at it full-on, from where you are -
723
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:55,800
it's unreadable.
724
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:57,240
But from where YOU are,
725
00:43:57,240 --> 00:43:59,520
it reads as a skull.
726
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,480
And we don't know whose idea it was.
727
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:04,000
Did Holbein say,
728
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:08,240
"Your Excellencies, why not have an anamorphic skull?
729
00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:10,520
"See, I have made one here."
730
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,160
And they thought, "Oh, that's good!
731
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,960
"That'll look really good back in the chateau at Polisy."
732
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:18,080
Or, had one of these two men heard about it and said,
733
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,720
"Master Holbein, can you fashion for us a cunning perspective?"
734
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:23,080
We don't know.
735
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:24,840
But all of you know,
736
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:26,520
that to put a skull,
737
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,600
which is a symbol of death
738
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,760
into a portrait, is a strange and unusual thing, perhaps.
739
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:37,040
Erm...certain symbols, certain objects are multivalent.
740
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,480
They carry manifold symbols.
741
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:43,080
But not the skull - the skull is always, is it not,
742
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:44,760
a symbol of death.
743
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,520
So, perhaps, the reading of this might be
744
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,400
that death is ever present.
745
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,080
Hiding...but ever present.
746
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,200
You never know when it might occur.
747
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,560
And, in fact, he didn't make old bones, at all.
748
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:01,400
But, perhaps, carried within this was a message
749
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,760
which Jean de Dinteville could talk about
750
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,640
when he showed anyone this painting in his house at Polisy.
751
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,240
Maybe the message was something like this -
752
00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:13,720
No matter how rich, young...
753
00:45:13,720 --> 00:45:17,960
He was 29, or in his 29th year. He in his 25th.
754
00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:26,080
..handsome, interested in and worried about the world you are,
755
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,160
in the end, it all comes down to the grim invincible,
756
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:34,280
and the only thing to be considered in this world is salvation,
757
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:38,400
represented by the almost hidden crucifix top left.
758
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,120
It's the brilliant thing about art.
759
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,080
It encompasses everything.
760
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:13,880
It's not just about either drawing or painting - it's about life.
761
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:15,520
It's about music.
762
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:16,880
It's about film.
763
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:18,400
It's about philosophy.
764
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,000
It's about mathematics.
765
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:21,400
It's about science.
766
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:23,160
It's about literature.
767
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,120
Anything you are interested in...
768
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,600
..goes into art.
769
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,760
And that's why I became an artist.
770
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:32,800
And that's what fascinates me.
771
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,360
It doesn't matter what you're interested in,
772
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:36,960
it can all feed in.
773
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,480
And I want to also talk about how we can use
774
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,480
these paintings in the collection,
775
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:43,920
because it might seem to you - "Hang on a minute, we are
776
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:45,760
"looking at 17th century,
777
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,000
"16th century,
778
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:49,840
"19th century...
779
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,640
"What on earth use is that for us today,
780
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:54,480
"in the 21st century?"
781
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,320
Now, I don't make paintings -
782
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:57,640
I do a lot of drawing -
783
00:46:57,640 --> 00:46:59,680
but I make installations.
784
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,880
So I make things that take over a room that people can interact with,
785
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:07,320
and yet these paintings here give me a huge amount of inspiration,
786
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,080
and I come in here almost every day.
787
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,640
So I want them to do that for you.
788
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,480
Now, I am going to be sort of blunt about this,
789
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:17,640
because it's important that you know this.
790
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,640
The collection is founded on slavery.
791
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,720
John Julius Angerstein, who had the nucleus of the collection,
792
00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:28,000
worked for Lloyd's who were insurers against
793
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:29,680
slave votes.
794
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:34,960
And it's very important that people absolutely understand that
795
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,560
a lot of the institutions - whether you're talking Tate,
796
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,760
whether you're talking British Museum, erm -
797
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:46,360
a lot of the big institutions are founded from money.
798
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,920
And it's something, obviously, that should never be forgotten,
799
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,920
and should always be understood.
800
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:54,960
And also Britain's
801
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,680
very, very shameful part in that,
802
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,160
shouldn't, obviously, be forgotten, either.
803
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,120
Let's start first with Stubbs,
804
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:03,680
the great horse-painter.
805
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:05,960
You look at this portrait
806
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,120
of a horse, and it's hard to imagine
807
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,160
that this is painted by someone
808
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,160
that didn't really particularly train as an artist.
809
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:15,480
He was largely self-taught.
810
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,880
He established a career, first, as a portrait painter,
811
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,800
and as an anatomist.
812
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,800
He studied anatomy at York hospital,
813
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:30,200
and ended up drawing illustrations for a new book on midwifery -
814
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,120
or "midwife-ery" -
815
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:37,240
so he's already established himself as an artist in one way.
816
00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:42,360
But, then, he set himself down for 18 months, in a farmhouse -
817
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,200
this was in 1756 -
818
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:48,160
and devoted that time - a year and a half -
819
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,800
to studying the anatomy of horses.
820
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:55,840
He was close to a tannery that took the hide's off of them,
821
00:48:55,840 --> 00:49:00,320
and they gave him the corpses of these horses.
822
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,480
And he rigged up, in this farmhouse,
823
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,920
a great iron bar and pulley systems
824
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,760
and he would put planks of wood underneath the horses legs -
825
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,000
so that he would suspend them, literally, from hooks
826
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,160
on a ceiling like a piece of meat,
827
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,720
and then would start to go about drawing
828
00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:20,640
all of the muscles that he could see, and the tendons,
829
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:22,440
and then he would scalpel away,
830
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:24,720
and lift away another layer of muscles
831
00:49:24,720 --> 00:49:26,480
and draw what was underneath,
832
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,600
until he eventually got to the skeleton,
833
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,600
and then he would animate that.
834
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:33,320
He would draw and write notes.
835
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,920
So this was big news, what Stubbs was doing.
836
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,000
I'm very bad at maths.
837
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,560
I was bad at maths at your age, I'm bad at maths at my age,
838
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,160
I will always be bad maths, I think, though I'd like to change.
839
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,760
And the reason why I like art rather than maths,
840
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:42,280
although they are connected somehow,
841
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,760
is that in art you can be right in lots of different ways
842
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:49,240
but in maths can only really be right once. Otherwise you're wrong.
843
00:50:49,240 --> 00:50:50,760
I do really like that about art.
844
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,360
And one reason why I wanted to show you this painting
845
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,600
is to talk about saints and things, but also to talk about storytelling,
846
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:58,920
because I think that's really, really important.
847
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,320
Think about the way that a painting,
848
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,760
whether it's this painting - this is by an artist called Bellini -
849
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:07,040
or it's Diana and Actaeon or it's Death of Actaeon,
850
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:08,480
which we're going to be seeing,
851
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,600
or it is Bacchus and Ariadne -
852
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:15,040
a painting has got to tell it's whole story in a single image.
853
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,320
A book or a poem has time.
854
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,600
The one thing that paintings don't have is time.
855
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:21,000
Do you know what I mean?
856
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,040
So a film unfolds over two hours.
857
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,200
You've got time to introduce characters,
858
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,080
you've got time to show the plot going in and out.
859
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:31,360
A book, a huge book, can take you six months to read -
860
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,120
or longer, can't it? Can do. Can do.
861
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:37,120
It means you're living with the story for six months.
862
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,280
And it goes in and out, it weaves around,
863
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,080
new characters are introduced, different things happen...
864
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,360
That's got time, too. But a painting doesn't have time.
865
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,280
A painting has the speed of light to tell you the story.
866
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:50,480
It has the time it takes to see the painting.
867
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:53,200
So telling a story in a painting is incredibly skilful.
868
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,240
So I want to think a little bit more,
869
00:51:55,240 --> 00:51:57,800
before we move on to Titian, which we will do soon,
870
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,320
about how this artist tells the story.
871
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:02,080
What else is in the painting?
872
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:03,800
Can you think of a reason?
873
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,320
Because in the actual story
874
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,560
there's no woodcutters.
875
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:11,520
In the story, there's just St Peter Martyr and his assistant,
876
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:13,880
who you can see there escaping.
877
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,440
They're walking alongside a wood,
878
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,680
near Milan in northern Italy,
879
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:20,920
when they were set upon by assassins.
880
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:22,760
One assassin killed St Peter Martyr
881
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:24,960
and as St Peter Martyr was dying,
882
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:28,960
he wrote "I believe" in blood on the ground.
883
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:30,560
Now, he's not doing it in this one,
884
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,960
but there's another version of this scene in another gallery in London,
885
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:36,160
a place called the Courtauld Gallery,
886
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,480
where he is writing "I believe" in blood.
887
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:40,640
It's quite... It's quite gruesome, isn't it?
888
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:42,880
Quite a gruesome story. But quite moving, as well.
889
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:44,320
The other guy escapes.
890
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,080
No mention of woodcutters!
891
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:47,520
Totally irrelevant.
892
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,200
Why do you think he put them in?
893
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:52,040
And they take so much space!
894
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,240
The woodcutters and what they're involved with -
895
00:52:54,240 --> 00:52:57,000
in other words, the wood - take up, like, most of the painting.
896
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:58,560
Why did he do that? Yeah?
897
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,640
Maybe because it gives the painting a little bit more character.
898
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:04,960
Definitely gives the painting more character. It totally does.
899
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:06,280
Think about this...
900
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,040
A tragic event, perhaps made more tragic,
901
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:12,640
if there are people around who don't recognise what's going on.
902
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:13,960
Who don't see it as a tragedy.
903
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,400
I'm trying to think of an example. I wonder if you...
904
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:18,320
You might know an example, I don't know.
905
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,640
It happens a lot in plays by Shakespeare, for example.
906
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,400
There are people that don't really know what's happening and go,
907
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,720
"Oh, what's happening over there?" There's, erm...
908
00:53:25,720 --> 00:53:28,600
There's a lovely painting that's not actually in this gallery,
909
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,600
but it's a painting of the fall of Icarus.
910
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,560
Icarus is the one that made the wings...
911
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:35,640
The one who flew too close to the sun?
912
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,080
Fantastic painting, where almost all of the painting,
913
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:39,840
is people not noticing what's going on.
914
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,880
People, like, ploughing the fields and doing lots of other things,
915
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:46,040
while, in the background, he plunks into the ocean and dies.
916
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,440
And there's a famous poem about that by Auden,
917
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,240
which is a really good poem about how people don't really notice
918
00:53:51,240 --> 00:53:52,880
these things happening.
919
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,960
I think these woodcutters are partly there to make it even more tragic,
920
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:58,880
because they just keep going on and on and on.
921
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:07,160
It's amazing, isn't it,
922
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:08,840
how it adds a sense of narrative
923
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:10,400
as soon as there's an object?
924
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:12,400
As soon as we've got this pole
925
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:16,800
we're suddenly seeing all sorts of paintings in the gallery where...
926
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:22,160
Suddenly there might be some sort of story woven into this pose.
927
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:26,760
We can't help ourselves, but to add narrative,
928
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,480
when we're dealing with the human body.
929
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:34,160
And if you want to include any elements from the room -
930
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:38,880
I'm thinking about vertical lines or horizontal lines.
931
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:40,800
Finding lines of connection.
932
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,480
Try to be constantly looking at the relationship
933
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,000
between the head and the shoulder girdle,
934
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,440
between the shoulder girdle and the pelvis.
935
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:51,440
Be brave and add that vertical line
936
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:55,000
to contrast the curves of the body.
937
00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:02,680
OK, now we're slowing down and really looking.
938
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,480
Start to move more quickly around the body,
939
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:09,000
making marks in continuous movement
940
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,200
as you work around it with your eyes.
941
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:14,440
Leave a leg, move back to a shoulder,
942
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:16,040
go up to the top of the head,
943
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,600
move very freely around so you get a sense
944
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,120
of how this pose is working.
945
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:21,600
This hand should be big,
946
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,160
because it's going to hide that forearm.
947
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,080
Yes... It's the gap between it.
948
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:31,480
The gap between the nipple and first knuckle of the hand.
949
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:33,280
If you can draw that gap.
950
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:36,040
Then you'll be seeing...
951
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:38,320
- That's that line there, right?
- Ah...
952
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:40,960
- That's the line of the crease of her elbow.
- Yeah, yeah.
953
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,160
But I'm thinking about the actual bit of air
954
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,280
between the breast and fist.
955
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:49,880
- Hm. Yeah. That space is at the front of that.
- Yeah.
956
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,680
It's trying to measure that space, really,
957
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,920
and place the hand.
958
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:58,520
So that it's like bookending, isn't it? The space in the middle.
959
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:01,360
- If that makes sense!
- Easier said than done.
960
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:03,520
Yeah, get a hand in...
961
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:11,960
- I'm not sure...
- You're wrestling with it?
962
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,040
Just draw it a few times on another piece of paper, and then come back.
963
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,480
Think about how you want to use your pencil.
964
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:32,080
You can work in cross-hatching to build up tone.
965
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:35,640
You can start to smudge chalk if you want to...
966
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:38,040
think about light and dark.
967
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:43,040
If you're using the chalks, you might want to switch.
968
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,080
If you've been using the black chalk,
969
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:48,080
maybe explore the red chalk, as well.
970
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:51,480
You get a much softer mark with the red chalk.
971
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:53,560
Black chalk is more sort of bound together.
972
00:56:56,240 --> 00:56:58,680
See if that changes the way that you draw.
973
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:05,040
Just have another 30 seconds on this drawing.
974
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,000
So, if you're working your way around the figure,
975
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,920
just see if you want to, in some very brief strokes,
976
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:13,920
complete this pose.
977
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:21,000
SIRENS NEARBY
978
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:40,720
SIRENS NEARBY
979
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,520
INDISTINCT CHATTER
980
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:54,560
CHATTER AND LAUGHTER
981
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:40,040
He's gone to check to see how many they have left.
982
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:05,400
Even while the exhibition's been open,
983
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:08,960
have there been insights you've been getting into the work of Leonardo?
984
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:12,240
One of the things that you do as you start working on exhibition
985
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:15,080
is to think about what the whole narrative will be,
986
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:18,440
but you're also cataloguing each work individually, so at a certain
987
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:23,120
point it becomes a mosaic, perhaps, rather than a seamless narrative.
988
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:26,360
And obviously that remains the case to some degree.
989
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,520
But at the same time, you are beginning to see these works together.
990
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:32,120
You're beginning to be able to appreciate what makes them
991
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:36,040
very special as a viewing experience.
992
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:38,640
And I suppose what I've been struck about...
993
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:41,720
I suppose what I've been struck by over and over again
994
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:44,520
is this quality within these works
995
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:49,800
whereby the paintings show figures that are incredibly present,
996
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:53,520
incredibly vital, and yet extraordinarily remote and other,
997
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:57,640
and that's something that for me is very much a unifying factor.
998
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:00,840
So I suppose what I've been doing is seeing the works together,
999
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:07,560
thinking about what makes them a complete oeuvre by a single artist,
1000
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:09,280
what makes them Leonardo,
1001
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:13,400
and really, I suppose, I've been struck over and over again
1002
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:17,520
by the quality of thought allied with a kind of pitch of emotion
1003
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:19,960
and an intensity of craft.
1004
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:23,280
And it's that really that seeing the pictures together has made me
1005
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:26,200
understand about this extraordinary artist.
1006
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:29,160
And have there been any insights, anything you've learned,
1007
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:30,400
that have surprised you,
1008
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:33,040
particularly since the work has been gathered here?
1009
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:36,560
What I've been amazed by is how profound
1010
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:40,600
and layered and endless the viewing experience is with Leonardo.
1011
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:44,600
How you always feel that this is an artist who goes on giving
1012
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:47,760
with each of the works, and in fact one of the ways I think you can
1013
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:52,720
distinguish a Leonardo painting from one by a member of his workshop,
1014
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:55,960
is this process of endless revelation,
1015
01:02:55,960 --> 01:03:00,280
whereby it's almost as if onion layers are being peeled away
1016
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:02,480
and yet you never, ever quite get to the core.
1017
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:06,000
Leonardo's capacity to paint the invisible,
1018
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:09,440
the just out of reach, is really extraordinary,
1019
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:11,400
and that has been the revelation,
1020
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:15,680
but it is not about who painted what or anything of that kind.
1021
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:18,320
It's really about the personality of the artist.
1022
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:21,080
I think, for what it's worth, that it's this spiritual quality
1023
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:23,920
in Leonardo's work that has raised this exhibition
1024
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:27,880
to the event it's been, in the sense that it's not just about the name.
1025
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:30,840
It's about something to do with the way in which these pictures
1026
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:33,560
speak to people across time.
1027
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,120
Leonardo created an archive of drawings
1028
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:39,840
and they are about invention and observation,
1029
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:43,080
and they're about looking and thinking and so on,
1030
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:44,800
and he kept some of those.
1031
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:49,480
And they go on being an extraordinary point of reference for each stage.
1032
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:51,760
He is an artist who constantly refines,
1033
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:54,800
who revisits certain themes over and over again.
1034
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:57,000
And really, as I say, in doing that,
1035
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:01,440
each of those works becomes ever more considered, ever more felt as well,
1036
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:04,560
and that's the difference between him and his pupils.
1037
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:06,560
It's really in his...
1038
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:08,720
That's the difference between him and his pupils.
1039
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:11,560
It's really in his pupils' work that you just don't see that.
1040
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:15,520
You can see motifs being repeated, you can see beautiful craft,
1041
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:19,160
but you don't see that exquisiteness of thought.
1042
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:08,360
BRUSHING
1043
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:30,400
TAPPING
1044
01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:19,360
OK, great, thanks. Great, thanks very much.
1045
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:22,240
I've already taken some samples.
1046
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:24,640
I took a couple to look at the varnish
1047
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:29,160
because as you can probably see with a bit of an angle,
1048
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:32,440
there is a varnish layer which shows up quite clearly
1049
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:34,920
which doesn't come all the way to the edge.
1050
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:38,640
- There's a drip of it that's running down here.
- It stops there, does it?
1051
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:42,360
So I've taken some to look at the varnish and then my other samples
1052
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:45,720
mainly concentrate on this brown layer, which is the layer
1053
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:49,880
that seems to have contracted and pooled and reticulated across the surface.
1054
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:52,320
What's interesting I suppose from my point of view
1055
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:56,240
is how that layer relates to the paint below,
1056
01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:57,920
and how it sits on the surface,
1057
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:01,360
whether it's separated from the paint by anything in between,
1058
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:05,760
and if we can see a bit more about the layer in cross-section,
1059
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:08,240
whether it's got pigment in it,
1060
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:12,920
so those types of things would be very interesting about a cross-section sample.
1061
01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:16,840
So given this varnish layer goes to the border,
1062
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:19,480
- it would be perfectly all right...
- We could take...
1063
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:21,080
- ..to look at that border.
- Exactly.
1064
01:07:21,080 --> 01:07:24,560
We need a place where there was damage, really.
1065
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:26,520
I'm sort of looking up there in a way,
1066
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:29,560
because although there's this large loss here,
1067
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:33,920
that may not actually have that layer reaching that point,
1068
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:36,040
but up there I think it probably does.
1069
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:37,760
That might be worth looking at.
1070
01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:41,720
And I think the corners all have damages,
1071
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:45,920
in the past from framing problems, that might be worth looking at.
1072
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:48,000
But for the complete sequence of layers,
1073
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:52,120
probably one's best confined to that part,
1074
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:54,240
because as you say.
1075
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:57,800
So let's take a little look up at the top.
1076
01:07:57,800 --> 01:08:00,400
I'll get the microscope out.
1077
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:05,920
These damages here, probably be quite safe taking some here.
1078
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:14,240
As a preliminary, that's the thing we want to look at, really.
1079
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:04,640
I think that should do it actually.
1080
01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:07,520
But that's a very tiny bit just from the edge,
1081
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:09,040
the inner side of the damage.
1082
01:09:09,040 --> 01:09:11,280
I don't think you can even see it actually.
1083
01:09:11,280 --> 01:09:13,840
makes it a bit easier for me to do my analysis.
1084
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:16,440
OK, good, fantastic. Thanks very much.
1085
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:21,280
I'll just note down where this comes from, I think.
1086
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:28,120
I'll put it on this one.
1087
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:31,160
OK, thanks.
1088
01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:48,040
- BACKGROUND:
- Yeah, could be.
1089
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:17,080
CHATTER
1090
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:46,200
- A good workout.
- A good workout, perfect!
1091
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:48,320
Is it possible to buy the tickets online?
1092
01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:50,400
All the downstairs have completely sold out.
1093
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:53,240
The only way to get tickets...
1094
01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:56,880
BEEPING
1095
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:05,440
- That's OK.
- It's OK?
- Don't worry.
1096
01:13:19,480 --> 01:13:23,160
CONVERSATION IN GERMAN
1097
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:53,760
The main challenge that we are dealing with is that
1098
01:14:53,760 --> 01:14:57,160
our income, and what's available to us to spend
1099
01:14:57,160 --> 01:15:02,040
is 3.2 million less next year than it was this year,
1100
01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:04,640
so it's a significant reduction
1101
01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:07,520
in what we have got available to us to spend.
1102
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:11,040
Now of course, some of the income we had this year was exceptional,
1103
01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:16,080
from Leonardo, and our costs will go down as well next year,
1104
01:15:16,080 --> 01:15:20,240
so we're spending less on exhibitions than we were this year.
1105
01:15:20,240 --> 01:15:23,840
We are also spending less on our capital programme next year,
1106
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:26,640
so 1.5 million down
1107
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:29,480
because we're spending a million less on the capital
1108
01:15:29,480 --> 01:15:32,760
and half a million less on exhibitions.
1109
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:36,440
Also this year, we've been able to afford the compensation payments
1110
01:15:36,440 --> 01:15:40,680
to a range of staff who have left, which was in the region of 700,000.
1111
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:44,240
So all of those costs won't appear again next year,
1112
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:47,400
but that still leaves us about a million short,
1113
01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:50,960
and the way that we have managed to break even for next year
1114
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:54,280
is because of the savings we have made in staff costs.
1115
01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:58,720
So that has enabled us to present a balanced budget
1116
01:15:58,720 --> 01:16:00,560
so the work that we've done this year
1117
01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:02,720
and changes to invigilation arrangements
1118
01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:04,680
and in the post-SAP have been reduced,
1119
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:07,880
has enabled us to balance this budget,
1120
01:16:07,880 --> 01:16:10,400
and there's a little bit more detail about that
1121
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:12,840
later on in the paper which I will come to.
1122
01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:15,600
One of the big risks that we face over the coming years
1123
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:17,760
is the likelihood of further cuts,
1124
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:23,320
which although I'm hopeful that won't be the case during 2012-13,
1125
01:16:23,320 --> 01:16:27,200
it's not impossible tha there will be another spending review in 2012-13
1126
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:30,600
which will reduce our grant and aid still further
1127
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:35,080
in the following two years, 13-14 and 14-15,
1128
01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:38,520
which can be by as much as 5% each year,
1129
01:16:38,520 --> 01:16:41,040
and that's just what they've told us about.
1130
01:16:41,040 --> 01:16:44,880
Things have worsened considerably since the spending review.
1131
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:49,000
Are we being too cautious on that front?
1132
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:52,240
Only at 1.7 million of new income,
1133
01:16:52,240 --> 01:16:56,680
when the last couple of years they've gone way over that
1134
01:16:56,680 --> 01:16:58,960
and way over our budget figures.
1135
01:16:58,960 --> 01:17:01,200
Are we being too careful with that figure?
1136
01:17:01,200 --> 01:17:03,040
It's better to be cautious
1137
01:17:03,040 --> 01:17:05,280
because there are things that we don't know about.
1138
01:17:05,280 --> 01:17:09,600
For example, I've only budgeted in here for a 1% increase in staff costs
1139
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:11,920
on the basis of the Autumn Statement.
1140
01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:14,720
Now we don't know what the payrolls will actually be.
1141
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:19,920
And in recent years, they've actually been provided flexibility
1142
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:22,880
that puts us under pressure to actually pay more,
1143
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:26,560
and then there are uncertainties over energy costs,
1144
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:28,520
which can be very volatile.
1145
01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:31,080
And there's the possibility of further cuts,
1146
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:33,800
so I would prefer to budget cautiously
1147
01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:37,360
and know that we may well come in in a better position
1148
01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:40,160
which would provide us with the opportunity
1149
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:43,080
to cover such eventualities if we need to.
1150
01:17:43,080 --> 01:17:46,040
Last year, this current year, we budgeted for 2.8 million,
1151
01:17:46,040 --> 01:17:48,600
and as of December, you were at 4.9 million,
1152
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:50,680
not including 1.1 of campaign income,
1153
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:52,560
so you were at six altogether.
1154
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:54,880
And now you're budgeting for 1.7 million.
1155
01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:57,600
No-one's going to really look that closely
1156
01:17:57,600 --> 01:18:02,080
but it looks like we're spending 53p for every pound we raise.
1157
01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:05,280
With what we have in our budget, is our budget really realistic then?
1158
01:18:05,280 --> 01:18:08,320
It's cautious, but is it realistic when we're raising twice
1159
01:18:08,320 --> 01:18:10,080
what we put in here historically.
1160
01:18:10,080 --> 01:18:14,040
This is reflecting what we would expect to bring in.
1161
01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:16,800
You're right, it's very cautious,
1162
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:19,760
but it enables us to balance a budget
1163
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:24,040
that has accommodated the costs that we consider to be reasonable
1164
01:18:24,040 --> 01:18:26,120
to do what we want to do next year,
1165
01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:28,680
and it provides us with some flexibility
1166
01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:31,920
to cover eventualities that we can't predict,
1167
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:35,800
and also new projects that might come up during the course of the year.
1168
01:18:38,040 --> 01:18:40,240
So we could include more income,
1169
01:18:40,240 --> 01:18:43,440
but then we'd be including a much bigger contingency,
1170
01:18:43,440 --> 01:18:45,960
which I'm not sure it's a brilliant message.
1171
01:18:49,280 --> 01:18:52,440
Here is the decline of the empire.
1172
01:18:52,440 --> 01:18:57,440
Here something terrible has occured, it's the end of Carthage.
1173
01:18:57,440 --> 01:18:59,920
Their overthrow by Rome.
1174
01:18:59,920 --> 01:19:04,080
The men are all being taken off prisoners to Rome,
1175
01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:06,920
the women are weeping for them.
1176
01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:11,960
Here, the sun is descending, I think, in the sky.
1177
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:17,360
It's a very dramatic sunset with quite a lot of red in it.
1178
01:19:17,360 --> 01:19:22,600
Turner himself referred to it as "an insanguined sunset,"
1179
01:19:22,600 --> 01:19:26,360
an insanguined sky,
1180
01:19:26,360 --> 01:19:32,840
and here these rough brush marks in a dark red,
1181
01:19:32,840 --> 01:19:35,720
I think if you go into the exhibition,
1182
01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:38,520
you will see it is a dark browny red,
1183
01:19:38,520 --> 01:19:41,720
almost perhaps like eccrusted blood.
1184
01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:46,120
So this is a very dramatic view of empire.
1185
01:19:46,120 --> 01:19:47,400
So here, I think,
1186
01:19:47,400 --> 01:19:51,640
Turner really starts to detach himself from Claude in many ways,
1187
01:19:51,640 --> 01:19:56,760
because these are not tranquil depictions of classical subjects.
1188
01:19:56,760 --> 01:19:59,800
These are reflections on history,
1189
01:19:59,800 --> 01:20:05,120
and Turner was immensely interested in and influenced by history.
1190
01:20:05,120 --> 01:20:09,600
He also wrote poetry on this subject.
1191
01:20:11,760 --> 01:20:14,880
And he can't have avoided, of course,
1192
01:20:14,880 --> 01:20:19,840
the events around the painting of these compositions
1193
01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:22,440
in 1815 and this one in 1817.
1194
01:20:22,440 --> 01:20:26,040
It was of course the very end of the Napoleonic Wars,
1195
01:20:26,040 --> 01:20:28,920
the end of the Napoleonic Empire,
1196
01:20:28,920 --> 01:20:32,560
and by contrast, the rise of the British Empire.
1197
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:35,200
But Turner took a very long view of these things.
1198
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:38,440
He was interested in the rise and fall of empires
1199
01:20:38,440 --> 01:20:41,840
over hundreds and thousands of years.
1200
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:44,000
Do come in.
1201
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:52,320
So, welcome.
1202
01:20:52,320 --> 01:20:57,080
Now, you're looking at a picture of Frederick Rihel, painted in 1663.
1203
01:20:57,080 --> 01:20:59,880
It came in to the National Gallery in 1960.
1204
01:20:59,880 --> 01:21:04,200
It had been quite obscured by lots of accumulated yellow varnishes.
1205
01:21:04,200 --> 01:21:06,720
The picture was restored not that long ago
1206
01:21:06,720 --> 01:21:09,440
but the varnish that was used was very, very degraded.
1207
01:21:09,440 --> 01:21:12,760
What you're seeing now is a picture where I've done
1208
01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:14,320
quite a lot of cleaning,
1209
01:21:14,320 --> 01:21:17,360
and that means using solvents to reduce or remove
1210
01:21:17,360 --> 01:21:19,840
discoloured varnishes from the paint.
1211
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:22,040
Over most of the surface area,
1212
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:25,760
there is an area roughly corresponding to here,
1213
01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:29,120
where I haven't cleaned, not yet.
1214
01:21:29,120 --> 01:21:32,080
It's a little hard to see the differences, I suppose now,
1215
01:21:32,080 --> 01:21:34,440
and I can tell you it looks much worse.
1216
01:21:34,440 --> 01:21:37,400
I think the interesting thing about a yellow varnish,
1217
01:21:37,400 --> 01:21:40,920
everyone understands that a yellow varnish shifts all the colours
1218
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:43,840
toward the warmer end of the spectrum - blue becomes green,
1219
01:21:43,840 --> 01:21:46,440
and a yellow film over a yellow colour
1220
01:21:46,440 --> 01:21:48,600
doesn't change it much at all.
1221
01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:51,280
And so you might wonder about a picture like this,
1222
01:21:51,280 --> 01:21:54,440
which is mostly warm colours - white, red, brown, yellow -
1223
01:21:54,440 --> 01:21:55,720
about the distortion.
1224
01:21:55,720 --> 01:21:59,440
There are two things I would point out that have changed quite a lot,
1225
01:21:59,440 --> 01:22:02,320
and you can distinguish some quite important things
1226
01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:04,520
that are going on in the picture.
1227
01:22:04,520 --> 01:22:07,080
The differences between the yellow and white impasto,
1228
01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:10,840
very typical of Rembrandt, was completely impossible to see.
1229
01:22:10,840 --> 01:22:13,880
The sleeve and the sash were more or less the same colour,
1230
01:22:13,880 --> 01:22:16,480
but the other important thing to think about
1231
01:22:16,480 --> 01:22:19,840
while we clean pictures, that people often underestimate,
1232
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:22,560
is the fact that varnishes not only change colour,
1233
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:24,280
they often go a little foggy.
1234
01:22:24,280 --> 01:22:27,480
They develop a fine crackle and the scatter light,
1235
01:22:27,480 --> 01:22:29,520
and it's really on a microscopic level,
1236
01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:32,120
like looking at the shattered windscreen on a car.
1237
01:22:32,120 --> 01:22:34,960
There's still a film there but you can't really see through it,
1238
01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:38,880
and that really changes the way you see the darker colours.
1239
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:40,840
So they become much lighter,
1240
01:22:40,840 --> 01:22:44,640
and so you can't see the distinctions that are in
1241
01:22:44,640 --> 01:22:47,960
the painting between, say, quite dark, very dark and extremely dark,
1242
01:22:47,960 --> 01:22:50,560
and that's really important with the picture like this is
1243
01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:52,000
where there's so much going on.
1244
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:54,680
It's about distinctions between brown and black,
1245
01:22:54,680 --> 01:22:58,000
and really the illusion of depth and volume
1246
01:22:58,000 --> 01:23:02,920
and spatial perception is the key gain from this picture.
1247
01:23:02,920 --> 01:23:06,200
I think the kind of investigation I was saying before that we do
1248
01:23:06,200 --> 01:23:09,760
as part of any restoration, even preliminary to any restoration,
1249
01:23:09,760 --> 01:23:13,200
has shown some other interesting things about this painting,
1250
01:23:13,200 --> 01:23:15,560
and I'm going to take my one visual aid here.
1251
01:23:18,400 --> 01:23:20,360
We...
1252
01:23:20,360 --> 01:23:22,000
Sorry about that.
1253
01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:24,640
We normally do X-radiographs of pictures like this
1254
01:23:24,640 --> 01:23:26,560
before we start restoration,
1255
01:23:26,560 --> 01:23:32,280
so here is a typical X-ray where you can see the denser pigments,
1256
01:23:32,280 --> 01:23:35,840
the ones with the heavier atomic weights, show up white,
1257
01:23:35,840 --> 01:23:39,880
and luckily it just so happens that lead white, white pigment,
1258
01:23:39,880 --> 01:23:41,920
is actually one of the heaviest pigments,
1259
01:23:41,920 --> 01:23:44,560
so you can see the distribution of some of these things,
1260
01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:48,040
and it tells you very important information about how a picture's planned.
1261
01:23:48,040 --> 01:23:50,560
For example, the sky is painted around the head,
1262
01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:53,480
the head isn't on top of it, because we don't see that going through.
1263
01:23:53,480 --> 01:23:57,400
You learn all kinds of interesting things that are often very revealing
1264
01:23:57,400 --> 01:24:01,120
about a particular painter's way of working, certain mannerisms
1265
01:24:01,120 --> 01:24:03,400
in how he might handle impasto and all the rest,
1266
01:24:03,400 --> 01:24:06,240
but the fascinating thing about this picture, which many of you
1267
01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:09,560
may have already worked out, is that if you turn it sideways,
1268
01:24:09,560 --> 01:24:11,080
there is another picture,
1269
01:24:11,080 --> 01:24:13,920
and this is very unusual for this kind of picture.
1270
01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:15,400
Rembrandt did this a great deal.
1271
01:24:15,400 --> 01:24:18,120
Something like a quarter of his self portraits
1272
01:24:18,120 --> 01:24:19,560
are recycled and reused,
1273
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:23,680
but it's very unusual in the context of an important commission.
1274
01:24:23,680 --> 01:24:26,280
This is not painting for the marketplace.
1275
01:24:26,280 --> 01:24:29,200
This picture was for a rather important client.
1276
01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:33,960
So we can't be absolutely certain about this underlying painting.
1277
01:24:33,960 --> 01:24:37,120
I think it's fair to say it's the same sort of body type
1278
01:24:37,120 --> 01:24:40,000
and general characteristics as Frederick Rihel,
1279
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:44,280
so you might say that he may have changed it in response to this event
1280
01:24:44,280 --> 01:24:46,400
that happened, is one theory.
1281
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:50,120
This is in itself is quite a bold and very unusual composition.
1282
01:24:50,120 --> 01:24:53,720
There are more or less no full-length portraits
1283
01:24:53,720 --> 01:24:57,160
after his experiences with the reception of The Night Watch.
1284
01:24:57,160 --> 01:25:01,040
So that in itself is unusual and to have this great empty space
1285
01:25:01,040 --> 01:25:04,440
with what look like trees and the rest coming through
1286
01:25:04,440 --> 01:25:05,960
is quite fascinating.
1287
01:25:05,960 --> 01:25:08,880
But for whatever reason of which we can't be certain,
1288
01:25:08,880 --> 01:25:12,280
this picture, which is probably not entirely finished
1289
01:25:12,280 --> 01:25:14,920
but very far along, was changed.
1290
01:25:14,920 --> 01:25:17,000
And then we get into some interesting things
1291
01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:21,200
about what happened when it was changed.
1292
01:25:21,200 --> 01:25:25,120
He, amazingly enough, just turned it sideways and started again.
1293
01:25:25,120 --> 01:25:28,560
There was no priming in between the two paintings.
1294
01:25:28,560 --> 01:25:30,880
There is a brown quartz, sandy brown,
1295
01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:34,080
very typical of late Rembrandt, underneath the first composition,
1296
01:25:34,080 --> 01:25:37,120
but he just turned it and started on the same campus,
1297
01:25:37,120 --> 01:25:39,240
as best we can tell.
1298
01:25:39,240 --> 01:25:40,520
And away he went.
1299
01:25:40,520 --> 01:25:43,440
And it's interesting to think about that
1300
01:25:43,440 --> 01:25:46,000
because oil paint becomes more transparent
1301
01:25:46,000 --> 01:25:49,480
naturally over the centuries, slightly more transparent,
1302
01:25:49,480 --> 01:25:52,080
and so that's why you can often see pentimenti changes
1303
01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:55,520
that were not intended to be seen.
1304
01:25:55,520 --> 01:25:58,120
Everyone thinks about the horse's legs on Velazquez,
1305
01:25:58,120 --> 01:26:01,080
when you see three or four of them because he was adjusting it
1306
01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:02,680
and you see them coming through.
1307
01:26:02,680 --> 01:26:05,520
And there's a fair bit of that happening in this picture.
1308
01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:09,000
I know the light's a little low in the evening, but here for example,
1309
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:13,000
is the hat of the standing man and his face is here,
1310
01:26:13,000 --> 01:26:15,880
so you can see a little bit of the pink showing through,
1311
01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:19,120
and there are some odd shapes coming through the horse's belly,
1312
01:26:19,120 --> 01:26:21,880
and they have to do with the underlying composition.
1313
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:25,480
Now we're getting into interesting problems of restoration history,
1314
01:26:25,480 --> 01:26:27,120
because as I said,
1315
01:26:27,120 --> 01:26:30,360
what you're seeing now is a picture that is largely cleaned,
1316
01:26:30,360 --> 01:26:33,080
at least in the first sense of the varnish coming off,
1317
01:26:33,080 --> 01:26:36,320
so you can see the kind of damages that are very typical of a picture.
1318
01:26:36,320 --> 01:26:39,400
The picture's in a pretty good state for its size and its age.
1319
01:26:39,400 --> 01:26:43,560
There are certain losses that, who knows what the reasons are,
1320
01:26:43,560 --> 01:26:47,000
but there are other problems with this picture that I think result
1321
01:26:47,000 --> 01:26:50,200
from previous restorers' confusion about what was going on.
1322
01:26:50,200 --> 01:26:53,480
It's important to remember that before the mid-19th century,
1323
01:26:53,480 --> 01:26:59,960
the kind of materials available to restorers to thin or remove varnishes was fairly limited.
1324
01:26:59,960 --> 01:27:02,000
They were fairly blunt instruments
1325
01:27:02,000 --> 01:27:05,320
and you couldn't really have the distillation of organic solvents
1326
01:27:05,320 --> 01:27:09,600
that you could know their reactions and really predict and understand the chemistry.
1327
01:27:09,600 --> 01:27:11,920
So there was often issues with overcleaning,
1328
01:27:11,920 --> 01:27:16,080
and I think what may have happened here is if you think about Rembrandt
1329
01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:18,400
and his characteristic accents of very thick impasto
1330
01:27:18,400 --> 01:27:20,400
that create this wonderful relief,
1331
01:27:20,400 --> 01:27:24,040
there was a bit of that going on from the underlying composition,
1332
01:27:24,040 --> 01:27:27,840
and I imagine if you're cleaning brown varnish off a brown painting
1333
01:27:27,840 --> 01:27:31,160
and you suddenly start to see some very exciting impasto,
1334
01:27:31,160 --> 01:27:32,800
it's Rembrandt,
1335
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:35,240
it can be quite exciting,
1336
01:27:35,240 --> 01:27:38,480
and we can't be absolutely certain, but for example,
1337
01:27:38,480 --> 01:27:41,160
this ornament on the boot -
1338
01:27:41,160 --> 01:27:44,360
I think I've asked you about this before, haven't I? -
1339
01:27:44,360 --> 01:27:47,480
it's unlike any...
1340
01:27:47,480 --> 01:27:50,800
He's basically waving a fancy dress hunting outfit,
1341
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:53,640
very typical militia party gear,
1342
01:27:53,640 --> 01:27:55,360
with a vaguely martial idea,
1343
01:27:55,360 --> 01:27:57,880
and so this boot is along those lines too,
1344
01:27:57,880 --> 01:28:01,600
and it has this odd ornament of a type that I've never seen anywhere else,
1345
01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:07,560
and if you then refer back to this X-ray, let's see.
1346
01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:13,800
Let's see, where am I? Hello.
1347
01:28:13,800 --> 01:28:15,160
There we go.
1348
01:28:15,160 --> 01:28:21,040
This thing on his boot is actually the top of this,
1349
01:28:21,040 --> 01:28:26,200
he is wearing a kind of tabard, jerkin, kind of hunting, riding...
1350
01:28:26,200 --> 01:28:28,520
Funnily enough, he seems to be in riding gear,
1351
01:28:28,520 --> 01:28:30,000
the standing figure as well.
1352
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:32,600
Maybe just a sort of country squire look.
1353
01:28:32,600 --> 01:28:35,280
But that's a detail of his underlying costume.
1354
01:28:35,280 --> 01:28:39,120
It could be that Rembrandt just fortuitously thought,
1355
01:28:39,120 --> 01:28:41,360
"That's rather good, I'll use that,"
1356
01:28:41,360 --> 01:28:45,440
but it does seem a little odd to me because it's this perfect triangle,
1357
01:28:45,440 --> 01:28:47,000
it doesn't really curve,
1358
01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:49,560
and the whole idea about this picture is
1359
01:28:49,560 --> 01:28:52,920
wih a very limited palette he has created this amazing thing
1360
01:28:52,920 --> 01:28:55,200
of the horse coming out on the diagonal.
1361
01:28:55,200 --> 01:28:57,440
Even the boot is twisting out and coming up,
1362
01:28:57,440 --> 01:28:59,960
and if you think the thing should probably be
1363
01:28:59,960 --> 01:29:03,240
about a metre and a half higher, it was really looking down in the way
1364
01:29:03,240 --> 01:29:07,560
that equestrian portraits of this type are supposed to create
1365
01:29:07,560 --> 01:29:09,200
this kind of grandeur.
1366
01:29:09,200 --> 01:29:10,600
Authority if not power.
1367
01:29:10,600 --> 01:29:13,120
Think of the Velazquez Olivares or something like that,
1368
01:29:13,120 --> 01:29:16,960
so this doesn't seem to square with that to me.
1369
01:29:16,960 --> 01:29:19,040
But we'll be looking at that very closely.
1370
01:29:19,040 --> 01:29:22,520
We'll take a look with a microscope and take some samples and see.
1371
01:29:22,520 --> 01:29:25,360
It looks to me as though you can see some traces of this
1372
01:29:25,360 --> 01:29:27,480
mouse-coloured, brown-grey paint,
1373
01:29:27,480 --> 01:29:30,920
within the impasto of the boot ornament,
1374
01:29:30,920 --> 01:29:35,600
which suggests to me that this is an earlier misguided cleaning.
1375
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:40,600
That's something quite different from, say, the natural increase in transparency.
1376
01:29:40,600 --> 01:29:44,600
There is other evidence of very harsh cleaning in this picture anyway.
1377
01:29:44,600 --> 01:29:48,360
This kind of broken-up islands look a bit like, I don't know,
1378
01:29:48,360 --> 01:29:51,000
fractoids or a sort of steamy-looking thing,
1379
01:29:51,000 --> 01:29:53,800
and that's a very typical result of undercutting
1380
01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:57,240
with harsh solvents or reagents, so this picture has suffered a bit
1381
01:29:57,240 --> 01:30:00,600
and I think there was much more confusion on the lower areas
1382
01:30:00,600 --> 01:30:03,320
where there's a sort of brown on brown and brown
1383
01:30:03,320 --> 01:30:06,960
and it's a little confusing if you're not really aware of what's happening.
1384
01:31:58,000 --> 01:32:01,560
In what sense does the work that you do feed into the exhibition -
1385
01:32:01,560 --> 01:32:04,680
beyond the fact that it made the restoration possible?
1386
01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:06,960
In order to conserve a picture,
1387
01:32:06,960 --> 01:32:10,040
you have to understand the materials of which it's made,
1388
01:32:10,040 --> 01:32:14,120
how it's painted, what its condition is and most of all,
1389
01:32:14,120 --> 01:32:18,800
how it's going to behave towards any proposed conservation treatment.
1390
01:32:18,800 --> 01:32:21,040
What that means is that
1391
01:32:21,040 --> 01:32:24,360
we can only touch a picture if we can do it safely.
1392
01:32:24,360 --> 01:32:28,080
One of the reasons why pictures are investigated
1393
01:32:28,080 --> 01:32:32,440
so carefully for their physical and chemical state
1394
01:32:32,440 --> 01:32:37,400
is for the scientists of the gallery to be able to advise restorers
1395
01:32:37,400 --> 01:32:42,600
on the kind of conservation treatment they intend to use on the picture
1396
01:32:42,600 --> 01:32:46,440
and most of all, so that we can guarantee that
1397
01:32:46,440 --> 01:32:50,480
what is done to a National Gallery picture is absolutely safe for it.
1398
01:32:52,040 --> 01:32:55,520
How has our understanding of Leonardo changed now -
1399
01:32:55,520 --> 01:32:58,840
I mean, having got to the end of this exhibition?
1400
01:32:58,840 --> 01:33:03,160
Well, there are in fact very few paintings by Leonardo extant
1401
01:33:03,160 --> 01:33:05,240
that have come down to us.
1402
01:33:05,240 --> 01:33:08,560
And so, the study - the intense study of one of them -
1403
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:11,320
the National Gallery's Virgin Of The Rocks
1404
01:33:11,320 --> 01:33:13,960
provided the most complete information
1405
01:33:13,960 --> 01:33:16,680
about Leonardo's painting technique.
1406
01:33:16,680 --> 01:33:20,200
We know quite a lot about the way he drew on paper,
1407
01:33:20,200 --> 01:33:25,080
but before this exhibition and before the studies were undertaken,
1408
01:33:25,080 --> 01:33:30,080
quite little was known about the actual way in which Leonardo painted.
1409
01:33:30,080 --> 01:33:33,320
- And now we know a great deal more.
- And what is it that we know?
1410
01:33:33,320 --> 01:33:35,880
Well, er, that's... LAUGHTER
1411
01:33:35,880 --> 01:33:38,800
We know every detail of this picture.
1412
01:33:38,800 --> 01:33:41,760
It's one of the most intensively studied pictures
1413
01:33:41,760 --> 01:33:43,920
in the National Gallery collection.
1414
01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:47,200
So we know how Leonardo prepared his panel,
1415
01:33:47,200 --> 01:33:49,080
what kind of ground he used.
1416
01:33:49,080 --> 01:33:53,160
We know that there were two phases of drawing on this picture.
1417
01:33:53,160 --> 01:33:55,960
In fact, it went through a radical transformation,
1418
01:33:55,960 --> 01:33:59,120
from an earlier design to the design that you now see
1419
01:33:59,120 --> 01:34:01,280
expressed in paint on the surface.
1420
01:34:01,280 --> 01:34:03,520
And what that means, in fact...
1421
01:34:03,520 --> 01:34:07,360
Because of that transformation of design, it means this picture
1422
01:34:07,360 --> 01:34:10,600
is actually very complicated and its manner of painting.
1423
01:34:10,600 --> 01:34:13,160
So we've been able to analyse what we'd call
1424
01:34:13,160 --> 01:34:15,520
the layer structure of the picture -
1425
01:34:15,520 --> 01:34:18,640
all the different layers of paint that Leonardo applied
1426
01:34:18,640 --> 01:34:21,240
in working towards the first composition
1427
01:34:21,240 --> 01:34:24,080
and then his second, finished composition.
1428
01:34:24,080 --> 01:34:28,360
We also know, in doing that, a great deal about the materials.
1429
01:34:28,360 --> 01:34:30,920
For example, the pigments he used,
1430
01:34:30,920 --> 01:34:33,400
the binding media he used and so on.
1431
01:34:33,400 --> 01:34:36,880
So we can provide a very complete description of how
1432
01:34:36,880 --> 01:34:39,520
this work of art was created.
1433
01:34:39,520 --> 01:34:41,400
Right, that's the power fixed.
1434
01:34:41,400 --> 01:34:44,680
- I'm going to work it down from there, all right?
- All right.
1435
01:34:51,680 --> 01:34:53,280
What did we not know before?
1436
01:34:53,280 --> 01:34:54,920
When you plan the exhibitions,
1437
01:34:54,920 --> 01:34:58,560
you think about the different works that you want to bring together.
1438
01:34:58,560 --> 01:35:00,520
You go and look at them, of course,
1439
01:35:00,520 --> 01:35:03,400
and you're very familiar with every individual work,
1440
01:35:03,400 --> 01:35:05,880
but you never actually see them together -
1441
01:35:05,880 --> 01:35:08,320
and that is the magic of any exhibition -
1442
01:35:08,320 --> 01:35:11,720
that if it works, there's a magic that all of a sudden happens
1443
01:35:11,720 --> 01:35:14,400
when works start talking to each other.
1444
01:35:14,400 --> 01:35:16,240
Sometimes, it doesn't happen.
1445
01:35:16,240 --> 01:35:18,880
Then you know that you failed as a curator.
1446
01:35:18,880 --> 01:35:22,000
But when you see that it does happen...
1447
01:35:22,000 --> 01:35:23,520
There are relationships
1448
01:35:23,520 --> 01:35:26,760
that all of a sudden start to become more evident.
1449
01:35:26,760 --> 01:35:29,320
There are new themes that you discover,
1450
01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:31,400
even during the exhibition.
1451
01:35:31,400 --> 01:35:34,200
You spend so much time preparing for an exhibition,
1452
01:35:34,200 --> 01:35:37,840
writing a catalogue, thinking about each individual work in detail,
1453
01:35:37,840 --> 01:35:40,600
but it is only when you see them together in the same room
1454
01:35:40,600 --> 01:35:42,520
that things start to become apparent.
1455
01:35:42,520 --> 01:35:44,720
So, for us, over the last three months,
1456
01:35:44,720 --> 01:35:47,840
living with these works together in one space,
1457
01:35:47,840 --> 01:35:49,680
we have learned a great deal
1458
01:35:49,680 --> 01:35:52,960
about how Leonardo really developed as a painter,
1459
01:35:52,960 --> 01:35:55,560
how his students were responding to him in Milan -
1460
01:35:55,560 --> 01:35:57,720
how others did not really respond to him
1461
01:35:57,720 --> 01:36:00,440
and just continued to do what they were doing before -
1462
01:36:00,440 --> 01:36:02,440
how he was working with his workshop,
1463
01:36:02,440 --> 01:36:04,560
how he collaborated with his students.
1464
01:36:04,560 --> 01:36:08,040
There are still very many open questions and I think we have also
1465
01:36:08,040 --> 01:36:11,640
learned a great deal about the two versions of the Virgin Of The Rocks.
1466
01:36:11,640 --> 01:36:13,520
And still, it is a bit of a puzzle.
1467
01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:16,440
Art historians have thought about it for, I believe,
1468
01:36:16,440 --> 01:36:20,120
over 100 years and they've tried to work out the chronology
1469
01:36:20,120 --> 01:36:22,880
and the relationship between these two paintings.
1470
01:36:22,880 --> 01:36:25,480
A commission that is very well-documented, but yet,
1471
01:36:25,480 --> 01:36:27,840
we don't quite know why there are two pictures
1472
01:36:27,840 --> 01:36:29,560
and who painted them and when.
1473
01:36:45,400 --> 01:36:48,280
Originally, it was only men who were allowed to model.
1474
01:36:48,280 --> 01:36:51,360
Early Renaissance, artists were drawing from men only
1475
01:36:51,360 --> 01:36:53,920
and then having to sort of adapt those drawings
1476
01:36:53,920 --> 01:36:55,840
for the women in their paintings.
1477
01:36:55,840 --> 01:36:59,400
It was definitely a male profession, because women would be seen as...
1478
01:36:59,400 --> 01:37:02,000
- Prostitutes?
- Yeah, it just wasn't the sort of thing
1479
01:37:02,000 --> 01:37:03,600
women could be seen to be doing.
1480
01:37:03,600 --> 01:37:07,000
It is always a big decision, isn't it, when you're making a drawing?
1481
01:37:07,000 --> 01:37:09,400
You have to go for it, because if you skirt around it,
1482
01:37:09,400 --> 01:37:12,040
- you end up with a very strange figure.
- It's there, isn't it?
1483
01:37:12,040 --> 01:37:14,120
It's there. It's just part of everything...
1484
01:37:14,120 --> 01:37:16,120
But, yeah, you're right - you don't see...
1485
01:37:16,120 --> 01:37:18,440
In the gallery, I can't think of any examples.
1486
01:37:18,440 --> 01:37:19,680
I think it's a very...
1487
01:37:21,200 --> 01:37:23,480
..healthy thing to have, life drawing.
1488
01:37:23,480 --> 01:37:25,240
Yeah, it's liberating, isn't it?
1489
01:37:25,240 --> 01:37:28,160
I've never done it, but if I'd done it when I was younger,
1490
01:37:28,160 --> 01:37:31,560
- it would have changed my outlook...
- Yeah, it just reminds you that...
1491
01:37:31,560 --> 01:37:34,160
It's free, isn't it? You see it for what it is.
1492
01:37:34,160 --> 01:37:36,760
Exactly, it's just sort of stripped of everything
1493
01:37:36,760 --> 01:37:39,400
and it's this sort of safe environment as well, isn't it?
1494
01:37:39,400 --> 01:37:42,560
- It's an encoded environment, where...
- There's no giggling.
- Yeah.
1495
01:37:42,560 --> 01:37:45,480
- But it's just celebrating how beautiful it is...
- How we are.
1496
01:37:45,480 --> 01:37:47,240
..and how beautiful we are, yeah.
1497
01:37:47,240 --> 01:37:50,200
It's a really good thing to just focus on and as you say,
1498
01:37:50,200 --> 01:37:51,440
it changes your...
1499
01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:09,040
Joe, are you going to stay there? Put the lights...
1500
01:38:09,040 --> 01:38:10,920
Put the lights carefully, yeah?
1501
01:38:15,400 --> 01:38:17,200
CROWD HECKLES
1502
01:38:28,680 --> 01:38:31,080
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
1503
01:38:49,880 --> 01:38:52,040
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
1504
01:39:33,440 --> 01:39:36,160
It's this question of what's the water doing?
1505
01:39:36,160 --> 01:39:39,120
If you could just nail what the role of the water is...
1506
01:39:39,120 --> 01:39:40,600
We're saying here
1507
01:39:40,600 --> 01:39:43,680
how he's doing the theme that we've already talked about -
1508
01:39:43,680 --> 01:39:47,120
and that'll be about endings and um...
1509
01:39:48,720 --> 01:39:51,520
OK, just help me with one thing. Help me with one thing.
1510
01:39:54,360 --> 01:39:56,240
Um...
1511
01:39:56,240 --> 01:39:58,760
- Cuyp, let's say...
- Yeah?
1512
01:39:58,760 --> 01:40:04,160
..has cows, tree, grass, light.
1513
01:40:06,320 --> 01:40:08,280
If Cuyp's work...
1514
01:40:08,280 --> 01:40:12,480
Is Cuyp's work a metaphor, or just a cute picture of a cow and grass?
1515
01:40:12,480 --> 01:40:15,600
- No.
- OK...
- Nor is this. We're just saying it is.
1516
01:40:15,600 --> 01:40:19,320
What I'm getting at is, basically, if that weren't water...
1517
01:40:19,320 --> 01:40:22,960
- If that was a field...
- How is the water metaphorical, you're saying?
1518
01:40:22,960 --> 01:40:25,680
- How does it help him generate metaphor?
- OK...
1519
01:40:25,680 --> 01:40:28,000
- Do you see what I mean?
- Yeah, let me do it then.
1520
01:40:28,000 --> 01:40:31,080
I can see what you mean, I'm now going to do it.
1521
01:40:31,080 --> 01:40:33,760
- Are these your glasses?
- No.
1522
01:40:33,760 --> 01:40:36,000
They're mine. They're mine, thanks.
1523
01:40:40,640 --> 01:40:42,200
OK, got it.
1524
01:40:51,280 --> 01:40:52,920
Action.
1525
01:40:52,920 --> 01:40:54,800
The Fighting Temeraire.
1526
01:40:54,800 --> 01:40:58,480
How different the mood would be if it weren't for the accent of...
1527
01:40:58,480 --> 01:40:59,880
Hang on...
1528
01:41:02,440 --> 01:41:03,720
Still set.
1529
01:41:05,360 --> 01:41:06,920
Action.
1530
01:41:06,920 --> 01:41:08,880
The Fighting Temeraire.
1531
01:41:08,880 --> 01:41:10,760
How different the mood would be,
1532
01:41:10,760 --> 01:41:13,440
if it weren't for the accent of that black buoy.
1533
01:41:14,760 --> 01:41:18,880
But how exactly Turner gets the balance between the two blacks -
1534
01:41:18,880 --> 01:41:21,160
the buoy and the tug -
1535
01:41:21,160 --> 01:41:24,760
with that precise sense of space between them,
1536
01:41:24,760 --> 01:41:30,000
the massive heavy treatments of the sunset and the subtle globe beneath.
1537
01:41:30,000 --> 01:41:33,480
It's very hard to say where light meets darkness,
1538
01:41:33,480 --> 01:41:35,920
so subtle is the grade.
1539
01:41:35,920 --> 01:41:37,800
How he gets all those things
1540
01:41:37,800 --> 01:41:40,960
is the essence of the success of the picture.
1541
01:41:40,960 --> 01:41:45,440
Water becomes a metaphor for feeling,
1542
01:41:45,440 --> 01:41:47,760
for yearning, the sense of loss -
1543
01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:51,560
the depth of emotion that his subject is about.
1544
01:41:52,560 --> 01:41:56,520
A metaphor is a literary thing that comes from the mind,
1545
01:41:56,520 --> 01:42:00,360
but the painting is made powerful by what's actually in it.
1546
01:42:00,360 --> 01:42:03,520
The precise shapes of those sails,
1547
01:42:03,520 --> 01:42:05,600
with the light shining on them.
1548
01:42:07,040 --> 01:42:11,840
And then, their repeat in the sliver of light by the black buoy -
1549
01:42:11,840 --> 01:42:16,640
and then the wonderful, lively fullness of that sunset
1550
01:42:16,640 --> 01:42:21,560
and the placid shimmer of the blue cityscape on the horizon.
1551
01:42:22,840 --> 01:42:26,200
It's through the doing and the redoing of all those
1552
01:42:26,200 --> 01:42:28,800
calling and answering elements
1553
01:42:28,800 --> 01:42:31,840
that Turner makes light on the Thames
1554
01:42:31,840 --> 01:42:34,600
into such a tremendous metaphor.
1555
01:42:46,640 --> 01:42:48,440
OK, that will work.
1556
01:43:19,680 --> 01:43:21,480
No handholds this time.
1557
01:43:46,400 --> 01:43:47,840
- That's it.
- Yeah.
1558
01:43:51,400 --> 01:43:53,120
There you go, same again.
1559
01:43:59,680 --> 01:44:01,840
I'll have to get one. One second.
1560
01:44:10,840 --> 01:44:12,960
CRANE MACHINERY WHIRS
1561
01:44:33,400 --> 01:44:35,120
120.
1562
01:44:41,680 --> 01:44:43,320
Go all the way up.
1563
01:44:46,200 --> 01:44:50,600
OK, good. Obviously, it's not a problem, because of that shadow.
1564
01:44:50,600 --> 01:44:52,280
That's right.
1565
01:44:52,280 --> 01:44:53,720
How about the right wing?
1566
01:44:57,680 --> 01:44:59,560
Dead on.
1567
01:45:02,400 --> 01:45:05,000
Would these have adjusted down on auto?
1568
01:45:06,000 --> 01:45:09,160
- The new fittings that you've added...
- Are the levels strong?
1569
01:45:09,160 --> 01:45:12,040
..will stay at 100%, but the other fittings that were
1570
01:45:12,040 --> 01:45:15,000
in the room previously will have dropped, possibly.
1571
01:45:15,000 --> 01:45:17,800
Maybe what we should do is close the blinds again
1572
01:45:17,800 --> 01:45:20,160
and set everything back to...
1573
01:45:20,160 --> 01:45:21,960
the full output level.
1574
01:45:26,160 --> 01:45:28,840
- But these should be at 100?
- Exactly, yes.
1575
01:45:28,840 --> 01:45:30,960
- Darren?
- Yeah?
1576
01:45:30,960 --> 01:45:35,600
Come back to the light on the centre panel.
1577
01:45:35,600 --> 01:45:39,400
Can you see enough from up there to see what's happening?
1578
01:45:39,400 --> 01:45:42,040
- Yup.
- We've got a huge frame shadow.
1579
01:45:42,040 --> 01:45:45,280
I don't think there's going to be anything we can do about that.
1580
01:45:45,280 --> 01:45:47,800
It's because the frames are causing it
1581
01:45:47,800 --> 01:45:51,160
to sit behind the glass so far back.
1582
01:45:51,160 --> 01:45:53,240
But...
1583
01:45:53,240 --> 01:45:55,200
do you have your card handy?
1584
01:45:55,200 --> 01:45:58,280
Put your card over the first fixture.
1585
01:45:58,280 --> 01:46:00,040
Take it away.
1586
01:46:00,040 --> 01:46:01,480
Again.
1587
01:46:02,880 --> 01:46:04,440
Take it away.
1588
01:46:09,280 --> 01:46:10,880
Take it away.
1589
01:46:12,000 --> 01:46:14,160
Tweak that one up a wee bit, too.
1590
01:46:17,720 --> 01:46:19,760
There you go.
1591
01:46:19,760 --> 01:46:21,640
OK, move along to the next.
1592
01:46:25,600 --> 01:46:26,800
Take it away.
1593
01:46:29,000 --> 01:46:30,600
Again.
1594
01:46:30,600 --> 01:46:32,160
Take it away.
1595
01:46:33,920 --> 01:46:36,280
Let me... Let my eyes adjust a moment.
1596
01:46:38,880 --> 01:46:42,760
I forgot my sunglasses this morning. I always bring my sunglasses up.
1597
01:46:44,200 --> 01:46:45,680
Kevin?
1598
01:46:48,520 --> 01:46:50,760
So that's 150 at the top.
1599
01:46:53,400 --> 01:46:56,480
Ah, there, we're getting more in line now, good.
1600
01:46:56,480 --> 01:46:57,840
Good.
1601
01:46:57,840 --> 01:47:01,760
Let's check the centre panel again, because we've added this light.
1602
01:47:02,760 --> 01:47:04,080
140.
1603
01:47:07,360 --> 01:47:09,560
And now, the left wing.
1604
01:47:13,000 --> 01:47:16,520
It's a shame about the shadow but I'm afraid there's just nothing...
1605
01:47:16,520 --> 01:47:19,120
- We'll have to live with it.
- ..not without...
1606
01:47:19,120 --> 01:47:21,360
backing it uncomfortably.
1607
01:47:22,360 --> 01:47:25,640
- Well, there's no more room, is there?
- There really isn't.
1608
01:47:29,080 --> 01:47:32,320
You've been heroic. With the exception of the shadow...
1609
01:47:34,640 --> 01:47:37,840
It's a lot better than I thought it was going to be.
1610
01:47:37,840 --> 01:47:40,200
- So thank you guys very much.
- No problem.
1611
01:47:49,280 --> 01:47:51,080
RADIO CRACKLES
1612
01:47:52,120 --> 01:47:54,120
I'll take you to an extreme example.
1613
01:47:54,120 --> 01:47:56,000
We were discussing natural light
1614
01:47:56,000 --> 01:47:59,160
and how now no-one knows where the lighting is in the painting.
1615
01:47:59,160 --> 01:48:01,480
Like, where is this one lit from?
1616
01:48:01,480 --> 01:48:03,960
- I think from the...
- Top left, yeah.
1617
01:48:03,960 --> 01:48:06,600
And it's a fact that in the 17th century,
1618
01:48:06,600 --> 01:48:09,000
we know people were much more aware...
1619
01:48:09,000 --> 01:48:11,680
When Van Doort wrote the inventory for Charles I,
1620
01:48:11,680 --> 01:48:13,280
he recorded every painting and said
1621
01:48:13,280 --> 01:48:15,440
whether it was lit from the left or the right -
1622
01:48:15,440 --> 01:48:19,080
which you just don't even do now, this we're so used to electric light
1623
01:48:19,080 --> 01:48:22,480
- coming down and doing it all for us, we don't realise...
- Right.
1624
01:48:22,480 --> 01:48:24,880
..it's important to record how it was.
1625
01:48:26,080 --> 01:48:28,440
And I assume he did it because he was going to
1626
01:48:28,440 --> 01:48:31,480
- hang the paintings according to which way they were lit.
- Yeah.
1627
01:48:31,480 --> 01:48:34,440
This one's in a big church and you could probably find, actually,
1628
01:48:34,440 --> 01:48:36,040
which chapel it was,
1629
01:48:36,040 --> 01:48:39,120
sit there and see where the light was during the day,
1630
01:48:39,120 --> 01:48:42,680
how it worked, why it was the optimum time for it to be viewed.
1631
01:48:42,680 --> 01:48:45,560
So he probably never imagined that it would be shown
1632
01:48:45,560 --> 01:48:48,880
in this kind of context, with electric lighting and...
1633
01:48:48,880 --> 01:48:52,520
Now, that's something that you have got to address, in a sense.
1634
01:48:52,520 --> 01:48:53,880
And we don't address it.
1635
01:48:53,880 --> 01:48:57,800
We say everything's designed to be seen dead front on, evenly lit.
1636
01:48:57,800 --> 01:49:00,200
I can give you one, because we're nearby...
1637
01:49:00,200 --> 01:49:02,280
We have to go to Rubens' gallery first.
1638
01:49:02,280 --> 01:49:04,600
I'll show you an extreme example of that.
1639
01:49:10,880 --> 01:49:14,400
OK, this is exceptional, because we know where this painting was
1640
01:49:14,400 --> 01:49:17,320
and it still exists, the actual venue that it was in -
1641
01:49:17,320 --> 01:49:21,000
it was in Rockox's own house and it was above his chimneypiece.
1642
01:49:21,000 --> 01:49:22,720
And chimneys in the 17th century
1643
01:49:22,720 --> 01:49:25,840
weren't like these little miserable things we get now.
1644
01:49:25,840 --> 01:49:28,280
The height of a chimney is always about here.
1645
01:49:28,280 --> 01:49:31,640
That's the top ledge of it, so it would have been at least that high.
1646
01:49:31,640 --> 01:49:34,840
You've got to imagine you're going to have to look down on the...
1647
01:49:34,840 --> 01:49:37,480
You know, the painting is way above you and you're looking up.
1648
01:49:37,480 --> 01:49:40,080
You can actually walk into chimneys in the 17th century
1649
01:49:40,080 --> 01:49:42,560
and you can guess, the lighting's on the left, OK?
1650
01:49:42,560 --> 01:49:45,800
That's where the windows were. The windows were quite high, too.
1651
01:49:45,800 --> 01:49:47,680
Now, it has one immediate effect,
1652
01:49:47,680 --> 01:49:51,240
which you don't get now, when you light it evenly.
1653
01:49:51,240 --> 01:49:53,720
The lighting is stronger on the left,
1654
01:49:53,720 --> 01:49:56,720
because that's the source of the natural light.
1655
01:49:56,720 --> 01:50:00,040
And therefore, it picks up her very strongly
1656
01:50:00,040 --> 01:50:03,400
and the five figures in the doorway look very faint
1657
01:50:03,400 --> 01:50:07,080
and that's worth noticing, because you wouldn't expect that.
1658
01:50:07,080 --> 01:50:10,080
In this light, the look almost as if they're competing spatially
1659
01:50:10,080 --> 01:50:13,400
and they're very bright, you know? The guys coming in to arrest him.
1660
01:50:13,400 --> 01:50:16,040
But when you actually put it in its original place -
1661
01:50:16,040 --> 01:50:18,000
and we did this a couple of years ago -
1662
01:50:18,000 --> 01:50:19,680
switch off all the electric lights,
1663
01:50:19,680 --> 01:50:21,840
which always takes a bit of persuading to do.
1664
01:50:21,840 --> 01:50:24,080
You'll find the painting clicks and pops,
1665
01:50:24,080 --> 01:50:27,720
because those guys fade back into the distance and this stuff,
1666
01:50:27,720 --> 01:50:29,760
which almost looks too harsh...
1667
01:50:29,760 --> 01:50:32,440
Because the light's stronger, it becomes much smoother.
1668
01:50:32,440 --> 01:50:35,840
He must have known he was doing that, cos he's made the contrast...
1669
01:50:35,840 --> 01:50:38,760
See the browns sneaking through, between the white?
1670
01:50:38,760 --> 01:50:40,240
You can see the warm browns.
1671
01:50:40,240 --> 01:50:43,680
So he's made it to catch the light and so, this is the focal point.
1672
01:50:43,680 --> 01:50:45,920
Would he have painted it in the same light
1673
01:50:45,920 --> 01:50:49,120
- as it would have been displayed?
- Yeah, he probably painted in situ.
1674
01:50:49,120 --> 01:50:51,800
And, there's quite a lot of evidence that artists did go
1675
01:50:51,800 --> 01:50:54,920
and place paintings in situ. Rockox was a friend of his.
1676
01:50:54,920 --> 01:50:56,960
And if not, he would have touched it up -
1677
01:50:56,960 --> 01:50:59,240
and that brings you to a different problem -
1678
01:50:59,240 --> 01:51:01,440
what happens if you've used tinted varnishes,
1679
01:51:01,440 --> 01:51:04,680
which we know existed from Pliny's time, in antiquity?
1680
01:51:04,680 --> 01:51:07,840
Because he would have thought, "Oh, that bit's now too bright."
1681
01:51:07,840 --> 01:51:11,120
And if we clean them off, we think we're very scientific.
1682
01:51:11,120 --> 01:51:14,640
We strip all the varnish off and so, we destroy any of that evidence.
1683
01:51:14,640 --> 01:51:17,120
Even when we find an original varnish,
1684
01:51:17,120 --> 01:51:20,160
we tend to get very excited and take them off.
1685
01:51:20,160 --> 01:51:24,160
And so, we'll never know how much the artist toned it back.
1686
01:51:24,160 --> 01:51:26,080
But you can see in this painting...
1687
01:51:26,080 --> 01:51:29,480
I think the painting's much finer over here. If you come here...
1688
01:51:29,480 --> 01:51:31,360
See, he's just done zigzags -
1689
01:51:31,360 --> 01:51:34,680
hasn't bothered to do any real modelling at all,
1690
01:51:34,680 --> 01:51:37,120
because he knows this is the dark corner.
1691
01:51:37,120 --> 01:51:40,600
And he also knows it's above your eye height.
1692
01:51:40,600 --> 01:51:44,040
And so, you see these differences...
1693
01:51:44,040 --> 01:51:46,600
And he also knows the window lets in the breeze,
1694
01:51:46,600 --> 01:51:50,320
- so he's made the candle blow from the left.
- That's quite clever.
1695
01:51:50,320 --> 01:51:51,720
And so, you lose all that.
1696
01:51:51,720 --> 01:51:56,080
I mean, context is almost crucial for a painting like this.
1697
01:51:56,080 --> 01:51:58,640
And you read a lot of rubbish, because people say
1698
01:51:58,640 --> 01:52:01,920
"it's above a fireplace", or "it's the flickering firelight".
1699
01:52:01,920 --> 01:52:05,560
If you actually look at a firelight, it doesn't reflect back.
1700
01:52:05,560 --> 01:52:08,720
The thing that light reflects off is floor, and so...
1701
01:52:08,720 --> 01:52:11,040
I mean, if this was a palace, for instance -
1702
01:52:11,040 --> 01:52:13,800
and we can try it when we go to a banqueting hall -
1703
01:52:13,800 --> 01:52:16,520
and switch off all the lights - how much light do you get
1704
01:52:16,520 --> 01:52:20,080
from the windows bouncing off the floor and illuminating the ceiling?
1705
01:52:20,080 --> 01:52:21,360
You can test it.
1706
01:52:21,360 --> 01:52:24,680
The only place I know it really works well is Palazzo Barberini.
1707
01:52:24,680 --> 01:52:27,960
- Anyway, thank you very much.
- Yes.
- See you.
- See you.
1708
01:53:48,640 --> 01:53:50,240
HAMMERING
1709
01:54:40,720 --> 01:54:43,800
The Titian cuts across...here.
1710
01:54:43,800 --> 01:54:46,560
- OK.
- So this would be one wall.
1711
01:54:46,560 --> 01:54:50,920
- Right, I get it.
- So it's within that... Within that space.
1712
01:54:50,920 --> 01:54:52,440
So it's not a very big...
1713
01:54:52,440 --> 01:54:54,920
And how far do you have to be from the paintings?
1714
01:54:54,920 --> 01:54:57,520
- What would be the...
- The barrier, there.
- The barrier.
1715
01:54:57,520 --> 01:55:00,240
That's just the barrier. And what is the barrier?
1716
01:55:00,240 --> 01:55:03,000
It can be up for grabs, but it would be like a...
1717
01:55:03,000 --> 01:55:05,760
Probably like a rope thing.
1718
01:55:05,760 --> 01:55:07,800
I think it's fine, space-wise.
1719
01:55:07,800 --> 01:55:11,320
- I don't think it's a problem. What's the floor like?
- Um...
1720
01:55:11,320 --> 01:55:13,960
It is concrete with wood over the top,
1721
01:55:13,960 --> 01:55:17,480
but maybe you could put some vinyl or something?
1722
01:55:17,480 --> 01:55:21,040
- Well...
- It's this, actually.
- Shall we just have a look at the floor?
1723
01:55:21,040 --> 01:55:24,280
It's concrete underneath. It's oak, I think, over concrete.
1724
01:55:24,280 --> 01:55:26,720
I mean, I think we just have to look at what we want
1725
01:55:26,720 --> 01:55:29,520
the visual aesthetic thing to be, in front of the Titians.
1726
01:55:29,520 --> 01:55:32,040
I just think if you put a floor intervention on there,
1727
01:55:32,040 --> 01:55:34,120
it might look a little bit artificial.
1728
01:55:34,120 --> 01:55:36,560
And actually... I mean, if it was an Ed person,
1729
01:55:36,560 --> 01:55:40,080
you could ask him if he would dance on that, as a question. Or Carlos.
1730
01:55:40,080 --> 01:55:43,040
- You know, as a question - would you mind...?
- Dancing on that?
1731
01:55:43,040 --> 01:55:46,080
Yeah, and they would have a point of view and one more perspective.
1732
01:55:46,080 --> 01:55:48,560
- So I think the question would have to be asked.
- Yeah, OK.
1733
01:55:48,560 --> 01:55:51,120
I don't think it will be a problem, because it's not like
1734
01:55:51,120 --> 01:55:54,560
- they're going to be doing massive jumps and leaps...
- Even Carlos.
1735
01:55:54,560 --> 01:55:56,800
Not in here, no. Not even Carlos.
1736
01:55:56,800 --> 01:55:59,240
But I think...a line is no use.
1737
01:55:59,240 --> 01:56:02,400
- It's no use?
- So you'd have to build a floor which is sprung, and then
1738
01:56:02,400 --> 01:56:05,320
- you get into a whole other...
- That would be...
- ..kind of dynamic.
1739
01:56:05,320 --> 01:56:08,160
I think, coming into a gallery to dance in front of the Titians -
1740
01:56:08,160 --> 01:56:10,160
that's what the nature of the event is,
1741
01:56:10,160 --> 01:56:13,440
- so one has to find what would be the most appropriate thing.
- OK.
1742
01:56:33,520 --> 01:56:35,600
So, good morning everybody
1743
01:56:35,600 --> 01:56:38,480
and thank you so much for coming this morning.
1744
01:56:38,480 --> 01:56:41,640
Titian called these works something special -
1745
01:56:41,640 --> 01:56:43,880
he called them "poems" - "poesie" -
1746
01:56:43,880 --> 01:56:48,800
and that was the first time that an artist had referred to his works
1747
01:56:48,800 --> 01:56:52,200
in a way comparing himself to...
1748
01:56:54,000 --> 01:56:58,200
..the intellectual capacity of poets -
1749
01:56:58,200 --> 01:57:00,960
poets of the ancient times.
1750
01:57:00,960 --> 01:57:04,200
And of course, Titian's favourite poet,
1751
01:57:04,200 --> 01:57:09,120
who he was very familiar with and was able to read
1752
01:57:09,120 --> 01:57:12,160
in the many wonderful vernacular translations
1753
01:57:12,160 --> 01:57:14,640
that were circulating that time,
1754
01:57:14,640 --> 01:57:16,760
was Ovid -
1755
01:57:16,760 --> 01:57:20,560
who, of course, was a Roman poet
1756
01:57:20,560 --> 01:57:24,280
and who wrote the wonderful Metamorphoses.
1757
01:57:24,280 --> 01:57:30,120
Ovid told these tales of the gods from the Greek pantheon
1758
01:57:30,120 --> 01:57:35,000
with such a mixture of humour and levity and...
1759
01:57:37,880 --> 01:57:44,720
..at the same time, acknowledging the tragic elements of human beings
1760
01:57:44,720 --> 01:57:50,000
tangled up in the loves and affairs of the gods.
1761
01:57:50,000 --> 01:57:56,240
And it was these subjects that Titian chose to send to Philip
1762
01:57:56,240 --> 01:57:59,680
and I now just want to look at the picture
1763
01:57:59,680 --> 01:58:04,560
and see all the different tools that Titian has used
1764
01:58:04,560 --> 01:58:09,320
to bring the story to life and to make us really feel...
1765
01:58:11,480 --> 01:58:14,400
..all sorts of different, conflicting emotions,
1766
01:58:14,400 --> 01:58:16,240
just as Ovid did.
1767
01:58:16,240 --> 01:58:19,760
And I think the reason that Titian loved Ovid so much
1768
01:58:19,760 --> 01:58:23,880
was that he was tragi-comic, yes,
1769
01:58:23,880 --> 01:58:27,240
but he was also a poet that really used words
1770
01:58:27,240 --> 01:58:29,600
in a very, very visual way,
1771
01:58:29,600 --> 01:58:33,000
whereas Titian was a painter
1772
01:58:33,000 --> 01:58:38,080
who could conjure up poetry visually -
1773
01:58:38,080 --> 01:58:41,520
and that's why, in this famous letter to Philip,
1774
01:58:41,520 --> 01:58:44,160
he called these works "poems".
1775
01:58:44,160 --> 01:58:46,960
And I think that as we sit there
1776
01:58:46,960 --> 01:58:51,480
and feel that lyrical quality emanating forth
1777
01:58:51,480 --> 01:58:54,360
that we can understand why that was
1778
01:58:54,360 --> 01:58:57,520
and why they're still called "poesie", to this day.
1779
01:59:09,800 --> 01:59:14,200
Today's ten minute talk is on Michelangelo's Entombment -
1780
01:59:14,200 --> 01:59:16,960
this large painting behind me.
1781
01:59:16,960 --> 01:59:21,320
This is quite an extraordinary example of the National Gallery's collection.
1782
01:59:21,320 --> 01:59:23,800
I don't know if any of you were looking at it
1783
01:59:23,800 --> 01:59:26,200
and thought that it looked a bit odd.
1784
01:59:26,200 --> 01:59:30,320
There are some really quite unusual features in this painting.
1785
01:59:30,320 --> 01:59:33,680
It's perhaps not the most typical way, for example,
1786
01:59:33,680 --> 01:59:36,840
to represent the subject. And also...
1787
01:59:36,840 --> 01:59:42,640
Well, I suppose what I most notice about it is its unfinished state.
1788
01:59:42,640 --> 01:59:46,720
That's quite a curious aspect of what's going on.
1789
01:59:46,720 --> 01:59:50,360
I don't know what you think, but for me, it's really great to have
1790
01:59:50,360 --> 01:59:54,720
mysteries and questions hanging over paintings that are 500 years old.
1791
01:59:54,720 --> 01:59:57,560
Because sometimes, we tend to look at them and think
1792
01:59:57,560 --> 01:59:59,080
because they're 500 years old,
1793
01:59:59,080 --> 02:00:01,680
we know everything there is to know about them.
1794
02:00:01,680 --> 02:00:04,440
And of course, that's not the case and every single one of us
1795
02:00:04,440 --> 02:00:07,800
as an individual brings a different story to a painting like this
1796
02:00:07,800 --> 02:00:09,680
and sees something different.
1797
02:00:09,680 --> 02:00:13,240
I absolutely do is see someone texting on a mobile phone.
1798
02:00:13,240 --> 02:00:16,800
Of course, that's probably not what everyone else sees at all,
1799
02:00:16,800 --> 02:00:20,840
but that's actually what can help keep these paintings alive for us -
1800
02:00:20,840 --> 02:00:23,640
the mystery around what the artist had intended,
1801
02:00:23,640 --> 02:00:26,520
because it's not always completely obvious.
1802
02:00:26,520 --> 02:00:30,000
I'm going to stop there. If you do want to ask questions, please do.
1803
02:00:58,600 --> 02:01:01,280
Something all artists are interested in is how
1804
02:01:01,280 --> 02:01:04,200
painting can kind of freeze reality.
1805
02:01:04,200 --> 02:01:08,600
So, someone who died a long time ago is still here, looking at us.
1806
02:01:08,600 --> 02:01:11,560
This lobster, which existed a long time ago,
1807
02:01:11,560 --> 02:01:15,640
which now doesn't exist at all, of course - is here, preserved.
1808
02:01:15,640 --> 02:01:17,840
Amazing preservation and here it is.
1809
02:01:17,840 --> 02:01:20,240
The drinking horn still exists.
1810
02:01:20,240 --> 02:01:23,080
It's probably the only thing in the painting, I imagine,
1811
02:01:23,080 --> 02:01:24,400
that does still exist.
1812
02:01:24,400 --> 02:01:26,880
But it's that idea of something being ephemeral,
1813
02:01:26,880 --> 02:01:28,360
something like a lemon.
1814
02:01:28,360 --> 02:01:32,040
And artists were really intrigued by the idea that they could do that -
1815
02:01:32,040 --> 02:01:34,760
preserve something for ever, really.
1816
02:01:34,760 --> 02:01:38,680
Well, it won't last for ever, but it'll last longer than us,
1817
02:01:38,680 --> 02:01:40,480
barring some disaster.
1818
02:01:40,480 --> 02:01:42,600
And that's an interesting idea.
1819
02:01:44,320 --> 02:01:46,680
I'll tell you a joke about Moses.
1820
02:01:46,680 --> 02:01:49,200
He goes up... This is not true.
1821
02:01:49,200 --> 02:01:53,560
He goes up onto the mountain, comes down with the Ten Commandments
1822
02:01:53,560 --> 02:01:56,320
and he gathers the Israelites around him.
1823
02:01:56,320 --> 02:02:00,000
He says, "OK guys, I've been up there, I've had a word with him.
1824
02:02:00,000 --> 02:02:02,640
"Do you want the good news, or the bad news?"
1825
02:02:02,640 --> 02:02:04,080
And they say, "Good news."
1826
02:02:04,080 --> 02:02:07,160
"Good news is, I've got him down to ten.
1827
02:02:07,160 --> 02:02:10,160
"The bad news is that adultery is still on the list."
1828
02:02:10,160 --> 02:02:11,720
LAUGHTER
1829
02:02:13,800 --> 02:02:15,640
Anyway...
1830
02:02:15,640 --> 02:02:19,040
This painting got vandalised a couple of months ago.
1831
02:02:19,040 --> 02:02:22,560
Some crazy guy came in with a red aerosol.
1832
02:02:22,560 --> 02:02:26,040
Luckily, they got the restoration team in straight away,
1833
02:02:26,040 --> 02:02:28,640
took it down, took it away, worked all night -
1834
02:02:28,640 --> 02:02:31,760
- and I came in the next morning and it was...
- It was back up?
1835
02:02:31,760 --> 02:02:34,960
- That's really nice.
- Yeah, it was back up, cleaned up, perfect.
1836
02:02:34,960 --> 02:02:37,400
Sadly, these things happen from time to time,
1837
02:02:37,400 --> 02:02:39,880
but you just have to learn to live with it.
1838
02:02:39,880 --> 02:02:41,960
Now, let me show you the last Claude,
1839
02:02:41,960 --> 02:02:45,240
because there's a nice little story attached to this one.
1840
02:02:47,560 --> 02:02:51,640
To come back to that research on Watteau was fundamental.
1841
02:02:51,640 --> 02:02:55,280
Bringing the works together was also an important element.
1842
02:02:55,280 --> 02:02:58,880
Now, we will see from what will come out of the...
1843
02:02:58,880 --> 02:03:01,560
Study of the partition -
1844
02:03:01,560 --> 02:03:05,000
I have ordered a big electronic copy of the partition
1845
02:03:05,000 --> 02:03:07,920
and we have sent it to William Christie, who believes -
1846
02:03:07,920 --> 02:03:10,840
and I think all the scholars - believe that, Watteau,
1847
02:03:10,840 --> 02:03:15,800
represented very accurately every musical movement, so it's not...
1848
02:03:15,800 --> 02:03:21,880
Well, we've consulted a number of musicologists ourselves
1849
02:03:21,880 --> 02:03:26,320
and the consensus now is that that is not a real piece of music.
1850
02:03:26,320 --> 02:03:28,840
- OK.
- It's not a real piece of music.
1851
02:03:28,840 --> 02:03:31,400
Probably an energetic restorer!
1852
02:03:31,400 --> 02:03:33,760
Well, yeah, whatever.
1853
02:03:33,760 --> 02:03:36,360
I mean, I haven't compared the music
1854
02:03:36,360 --> 02:03:39,280
and the painting with the music in the print line by line...
1855
02:03:39,280 --> 02:03:41,720
- I was going to ask...
- ..it's something I must do.
1856
02:03:41,720 --> 02:03:44,160
But I'm told that it's not a guitar piece,
1857
02:03:44,160 --> 02:03:46,440
because you would expect a number of chords.
1858
02:03:46,440 --> 02:03:48,080
It's not a singing piece,
1859
02:03:48,080 --> 02:03:51,800
because there are no words, other than what appear to be
1860
02:03:51,800 --> 02:03:54,200
the remains of a title,
1861
02:03:54,200 --> 02:03:56,560
so we can't actually make out what that is.
1862
02:03:56,560 --> 02:03:59,920
It's impossible to read and we've looked at that quite carefully.
1863
02:03:59,920 --> 02:04:03,640
So, if it's not a guitar piece and it's not a singing part...
1864
02:04:03,640 --> 02:04:05,280
I mean, what is it?
1865
02:04:05,280 --> 02:04:08,040
We conclude that it might be...
1866
02:04:08,040 --> 02:04:13,080
The only possibility is that it is music for the guitar
1867
02:04:13,080 --> 02:04:17,520
and that she is rather awkwardly holding it like this,
1868
02:04:17,520 --> 02:04:20,520
so he can actually see what he's playing.
1869
02:04:20,520 --> 02:04:22,600
But in fact, it's not plain.
1870
02:04:22,600 --> 02:04:24,480
So that was another...
1871
02:04:24,480 --> 02:04:28,160
So he's just chording his guitar, do you think?
1872
02:04:28,160 --> 02:04:30,600
- Tuning, yeah.
- Tuning, sorry.
1873
02:04:30,600 --> 02:04:33,800
- Or is he playing, because...
- He could be...
1874
02:04:33,800 --> 02:04:37,280
I don't know, he could be about to...tap it.
1875
02:04:37,280 --> 02:04:40,400
On these, there are some written documents now
1876
02:04:40,400 --> 02:04:46,080
- from these different musicologists?
- I've got letters or e-mails...
1877
02:04:46,080 --> 02:04:48,040
That could be...
1878
02:04:48,040 --> 02:04:51,160
That's incorporated into a draft catalogue entry,
1879
02:04:51,160 --> 02:04:53,240
which I wrote last year.
1880
02:04:53,240 --> 02:04:55,880
OK. We could use this information?
1881
02:04:55,880 --> 02:04:57,680
You could use this information.
1882
02:04:57,680 --> 02:05:02,160
Because it would be interesting to see who are these musicologists
1883
02:05:02,160 --> 02:05:04,680
and see with Bill...
1884
02:05:04,680 --> 02:05:07,720
who is more a musician than a musicologist.
1885
02:05:09,080 --> 02:05:11,680
The drawings I saw in Berlin,
1886
02:05:11,680 --> 02:05:15,240
there we discovered that with Bill,
1887
02:05:15,240 --> 02:05:18,080
that we know which music is performed at a place
1888
02:05:18,080 --> 02:05:22,440
and it's so complex in the positions on the instrument
1889
02:05:22,440 --> 02:05:27,640
that he must've known music, because that element was not clear.
1890
02:05:27,640 --> 02:05:31,000
In these drawings, it cannot be otherwise -
1891
02:05:31,000 --> 02:05:33,160
he knows how to play.
1892
02:05:33,160 --> 02:05:35,800
Knowing music - that's also an element.
1893
02:05:35,800 --> 02:05:37,560
That's an important thing to praise.
1894
02:05:37,560 --> 02:05:41,680
Yes, that's also the element of the drawings in the Kupferstichkabinett,
1895
02:05:41,680 --> 02:05:44,400
by Dr Altcappenberg in Berlin.
1896
02:05:46,720 --> 02:05:50,480
The drawings I saw there last week and so,
1897
02:05:50,480 --> 02:05:53,960
from the work that was done by Bill, he knows now that in the...
1898
02:05:55,480 --> 02:05:58,560
..in the different drawings, there's one of a hobo,
1899
02:05:58,560 --> 02:06:01,680
then another one of a gambler.
1900
02:06:01,680 --> 02:06:05,440
There's no scores there, it's only drawings of positions.
1901
02:06:06,560 --> 02:06:10,960
- They're convincing, yeah.
- And also, the complexity of...
1902
02:06:10,960 --> 02:06:13,360
We were there with several musicians,
1903
02:06:13,360 --> 02:06:16,000
also from the Berlin Philharmonic,
1904
02:06:16,000 --> 02:06:19,040
who came to see and everyone is convinced -
1905
02:06:19,040 --> 02:06:21,920
you cannot draw if you don't know music.
1906
02:06:21,920 --> 02:06:26,720
It's like we would say in...photography,
1907
02:06:26,720 --> 02:06:30,400
it's like in film, to make just that moment...
1908
02:06:32,520 --> 02:06:35,160
I think everybody accepts that that's a new musician
1909
02:06:35,160 --> 02:06:37,120
and he knew his musical instruments.
1910
02:06:37,120 --> 02:06:39,000
I mean, that represents the type of...
1911
02:06:39,000 --> 02:06:41,080
It was not clear that it was not music -
1912
02:06:41,080 --> 02:06:43,240
that's not clear for me in the drawings.
1913
02:06:43,240 --> 02:06:46,240
It's not clear that he actually plays the music himself,
1914
02:06:46,240 --> 02:06:48,320
which is a different thing.
1915
02:06:48,320 --> 02:06:53,040
But that represents a guitar of a type
1916
02:06:53,040 --> 02:06:57,920
that was being made in Paris around 1700.
1917
02:06:57,920 --> 02:07:00,640
You know, that's pretty accurate.
1918
02:07:00,640 --> 02:07:03,440
You see, they say the black's been strengthened a lot,
1919
02:07:03,440 --> 02:07:05,520
because black's the most soluble paint.
1920
02:07:05,520 --> 02:07:07,800
I mean, she's missing a few fingernails,
1921
02:07:07,800 --> 02:07:10,600
which makes you wonder, did they also take off a few notes?
1922
02:07:10,600 --> 02:07:13,680
And you've got to be very careful interpreting what it is now,
1923
02:07:13,680 --> 02:07:15,400
those musical notes.
1924
02:07:17,240 --> 02:07:21,040
It's good to see, good to hear the case. You're a surprise visitor.
1925
02:07:22,240 --> 02:07:26,160
- And good luck with your exhibition, whatever happens.
- Danke.
- Thank you.
1926
02:07:30,320 --> 02:07:32,720
This is a beautiful room.
1927
02:07:32,720 --> 02:07:36,120
Well, I think it's the most beautiful room in the gallery.
1928
02:07:36,120 --> 02:07:39,600
- Ha-ha, what are you going to say, Bill?
- I mean, look at this...
1929
02:07:45,720 --> 02:07:50,320
That touch, very delicate...touch.
1930
02:07:50,320 --> 02:07:53,440
She can't believe...
1931
02:07:53,440 --> 02:07:57,200
because she's totally in love with this shepherd boy, you know?
1932
02:07:57,200 --> 02:07:59,760
She just can't believe how beautiful he is
1933
02:07:59,760 --> 02:08:02,640
and she's got to touch him, to make sure...
1934
02:08:02,640 --> 02:08:04,880
..That he's real.
1935
02:08:04,880 --> 02:08:07,480
And the dogs... That dog is amazing.
1936
02:08:08,840 --> 02:08:11,800
- Anyway... I mustn't keep you.
- Well, I'm glad.
1937
02:08:13,480 --> 02:08:15,520
But it's lovely to be back.
1938
02:08:15,520 --> 02:08:17,840
Well, you must come and see us more often.
1939
02:08:19,960 --> 02:08:22,240
And in the middle of the 16th century,
1940
02:08:22,240 --> 02:08:25,160
we have something called the Counter-Reformation
1941
02:08:25,160 --> 02:08:26,920
taking place in Italy,
1942
02:08:26,920 --> 02:08:30,200
in response to the challenge of Luther,
1943
02:08:30,200 --> 02:08:34,480
as he challenges the Catholic Church.
1944
02:08:34,480 --> 02:08:37,120
And one of the things that comes into question is
1945
02:08:37,120 --> 02:08:38,720
the value of images.
1946
02:08:38,720 --> 02:08:42,080
Are images dangerous because they are likely to be understood
1947
02:08:42,080 --> 02:08:44,600
as replicants of God,
1948
02:08:44,600 --> 02:08:47,480
or replicants of figures from the Bible?
1949
02:08:47,480 --> 02:08:52,560
Or are they important, as a way into understanding the word of God,
1950
02:08:52,560 --> 02:08:54,320
as it was written?
1951
02:08:54,320 --> 02:08:57,120
So, this is a debate that is taking place
1952
02:08:57,120 --> 02:09:00,600
and what happens in Italy is, there is a proliferation of images.
1953
02:09:00,600 --> 02:09:03,360
In other words, the response is to make more images
1954
02:09:03,360 --> 02:09:06,000
and to make them as emotional as possible,
1955
02:09:06,000 --> 02:09:10,080
so that you feel a sense within yourself of what is happening.
1956
02:09:10,080 --> 02:09:12,280
And the message is one of fraternal love.
1957
02:09:12,280 --> 02:09:13,720
It's a universal message
1958
02:09:13,720 --> 02:09:16,040
and it's something that we can all relate to
1959
02:09:16,040 --> 02:09:19,520
and the idea is that you go away from the experience of viewing
1960
02:09:19,520 --> 02:09:22,000
feeling more love towards your fellow man.
1961
02:09:29,480 --> 02:09:33,480
I guess all I'd like to point out here is that having seen that issue
1962
02:09:33,480 --> 02:09:35,680
with the blanched ground downstairs
1963
02:09:35,680 --> 02:09:37,920
and how that disrupted that space,
1964
02:09:37,920 --> 02:09:41,680
I think you might have your eye on enough to start to recognise it here.
1965
02:09:41,680 --> 02:09:44,520
The more dramatic examples are something like this,
1966
02:09:44,520 --> 02:09:46,840
where you've got part of the table.
1967
02:09:46,840 --> 02:09:49,280
Again, this isn't him correcting something,
1968
02:09:49,280 --> 02:09:52,440
but the actual paint he subsequently applied on top of the ground
1969
02:09:52,440 --> 02:09:55,040
is very close and colour to what that would have been,
1970
02:09:55,040 --> 02:09:57,400
so they didn't intend a great blotchy space.
1971
02:09:57,400 --> 02:10:00,720
And again, we have more and more empirical evidence about that,
1972
02:10:00,720 --> 02:10:03,760
beyond just looking at the material itself.
1973
02:10:03,760 --> 02:10:06,640
This rather pale thing is absolutely...
1974
02:10:06,640 --> 02:10:09,120
It's a strong shadow cast from her arm.
1975
02:10:09,120 --> 02:10:12,960
You see the way goes up the side of the table and makes a sharp angle?
1976
02:10:12,960 --> 02:10:15,640
It's the cash out of the arm falling and so,
1977
02:10:15,640 --> 02:10:18,560
obviously that must be a darker value than this.
1978
02:10:18,560 --> 02:10:21,560
See, that gets to the core of what I was saying downstairs,
1979
02:10:21,560 --> 02:10:24,040
about when the pigment change is so localised
1980
02:10:24,040 --> 02:10:27,680
that it's really quite disruptive to understanding what the thing is.
1981
02:10:27,680 --> 02:10:30,920
That is a different kind of argument about what you might do
1982
02:10:30,920 --> 02:10:32,840
as a restorer to correct that,
1983
02:10:32,840 --> 02:10:36,480
or at least to reduce the effects of problematic effects.
1984
02:10:36,480 --> 02:10:38,560
One of the most fundamental issues -
1985
02:10:38,560 --> 02:10:41,640
well, I wouldn't say problematic, but certainly an open question,
1986
02:10:41,640 --> 02:10:43,120
where this picture is concerned -
1987
02:10:43,120 --> 02:10:46,000
and that has to do with the basic construction of the space.
1988
02:10:46,000 --> 02:10:48,960
Where the wall is - is that a window? Is it a picture of a picture?
1989
02:10:48,960 --> 02:10:50,520
All those kinds of issues.
1990
02:10:50,520 --> 02:10:52,880
Anyway, the evidence provided by the ground
1991
02:10:52,880 --> 02:10:57,520
and the shadows suggest that this table is right up against the wall.
1992
02:10:57,520 --> 02:11:00,480
You have a painted shadow here in black paint,
1993
02:11:00,480 --> 02:11:02,520
of the fish's head against the wall,
1994
02:11:02,520 --> 02:11:06,160
which tells you that it's quite close and the fact that that's cast there
1995
02:11:06,160 --> 02:11:08,680
I think is also pretty important
1996
02:11:08,680 --> 02:11:11,800
in fixing where that thing sits in space.
1997
02:11:11,800 --> 02:11:14,880
Again, this kind of ground colour here -
1998
02:11:14,880 --> 02:11:18,320
and then mixed with a bit of white and applied shadow...
1999
02:11:18,320 --> 02:11:20,200
It all starts to make sense.
2000
02:11:20,200 --> 02:11:24,040
This has still got quite a bit of retouching that needs to be done.
2001
02:11:24,040 --> 02:11:27,320
Then you can see the brush wipings here that are partially covered
2002
02:11:27,320 --> 02:11:29,600
in ground-coloured paint by Velazquez -
2003
02:11:29,600 --> 02:11:31,760
and have been exposed by old cleanings.
2004
02:11:31,760 --> 02:11:35,080
And you have the basic ground colour, the darker shadow
2005
02:11:35,080 --> 02:11:38,760
and what would have probably been an even darker one leading to the table.
2006
02:11:38,760 --> 02:11:42,560
It all starts to make sense if you start to substitute this colour.
2007
02:11:42,560 --> 02:11:44,120
And I think...
2008
02:11:44,120 --> 02:11:47,280
I hope you might agree that this then is pretty fundamental
2009
02:11:47,280 --> 02:11:49,560
to understanding what's going on.
2010
02:11:49,560 --> 02:11:52,920
Similarly, this area of the old woman's chin -
2011
02:11:52,920 --> 02:11:56,120
it sort of comes forward now in a sort of Cubist way.
2012
02:11:56,120 --> 02:11:59,680
And that's again because of blanched ground. It should be much darker.
2013
02:11:59,680 --> 02:12:03,280
So wherever you see this substitute a darker value,
2014
02:12:03,280 --> 02:12:07,280
I think all kinds of things start falling into place about the way
2015
02:12:07,280 --> 02:12:11,640
the elements are modelled and where they are in relation to one another.
2016
02:12:11,640 --> 02:12:15,640
And it's such a limited palette and such an austere kind of image,
2017
02:12:15,640 --> 02:12:19,760
I think these issues are really pretty fundamental
2018
02:12:19,760 --> 02:12:22,960
to your reading and understanding of the picture
2019
02:12:22,960 --> 02:12:24,800
and what he's trying to do.
2020
02:12:24,800 --> 02:12:28,960
So, that's why we might take a slightly different view
2021
02:12:28,960 --> 02:12:31,080
about how to approach its retouching.
2022
02:12:32,160 --> 02:12:36,760
Everything that Larry is now doing in terms of retouching
2023
02:12:36,760 --> 02:12:41,440
is on top of a layer of varnish that, once it's cleaned,
2024
02:12:41,440 --> 02:12:44,840
it's varnished and then Larry works on top of the varnish,
2025
02:12:44,840 --> 02:12:47,360
so that all the work that he does -
2026
02:12:47,360 --> 02:12:51,760
the tens if not hundreds of hours that goes into restoring a picture -
2027
02:12:51,760 --> 02:12:55,160
the next time it's cleaned, it comes right off.
2028
02:12:55,160 --> 02:12:59,400
The whole... The basic principle of modern conservation
2029
02:12:59,400 --> 02:13:02,920
is that anything we do should be reversible -
2030
02:13:02,920 --> 02:13:06,440
that the next generation can reverse it very easily.
2031
02:13:06,440 --> 02:13:10,240
Months or years of work is gone in 15 minutes.
2032
02:13:10,240 --> 02:13:12,600
But that's OK.
2033
02:13:12,600 --> 02:13:15,280
It gets to the core of how you feel about
2034
02:13:15,280 --> 02:13:20,360
whether this is a document or a kind of archaeological thing,
2035
02:13:20,360 --> 02:13:23,640
or whether you want to restore it as an image you read -
2036
02:13:23,640 --> 02:13:26,480
and how confident you are in what you're doing.
2037
02:13:26,480 --> 02:13:29,680
It's not just because Dawson and I scratch our heads
2038
02:13:29,680 --> 02:13:32,800
and think, "Wouldn't it be lovely if that was this or that?"
2039
02:13:32,800 --> 02:13:35,840
It's based on an understanding of the material,
2040
02:13:35,840 --> 02:13:39,120
historical sources and comparative images and evidence,
2041
02:13:39,120 --> 02:13:43,120
as I showed you downstairs, of Velazquez himself,
2042
02:13:43,120 --> 02:13:46,440
mixing colours to match the ground that he used.
2043
02:13:46,440 --> 02:13:48,600
So it's important to remember that, too.
2044
02:13:48,600 --> 02:13:51,040
There are really good reasons
2045
02:13:51,040 --> 02:13:54,160
for the decisions we take in matters like this.
2046
02:13:55,160 --> 02:13:56,840
I just want to also make sure
2047
02:13:56,840 --> 02:13:59,640
that you understand what Larry's been saying
2048
02:13:59,640 --> 02:14:03,640
about him using the ground colour in modelling -
2049
02:14:03,640 --> 02:14:07,960
that it was the original ground colour that he trusted,
2050
02:14:07,960 --> 02:14:11,840
he thought, "Oh, that looks just right in that shadow..."
2051
02:14:11,840 --> 02:14:13,160
He doesn't cover it.
2052
02:14:13,160 --> 02:14:14,880
And this isn't just Velazquez -
2053
02:14:14,880 --> 02:14:18,440
there are lots of painters who use ground colour in modelling,
2054
02:14:18,440 --> 02:14:20,560
as a kind of mid-tone, sometimes.
2055
02:14:20,560 --> 02:14:24,160
Caravaggio does it, for instance. It's not at all uncommon.
2056
02:14:24,160 --> 02:14:28,120
The intent is to restore the thing as a work of art that you read.
2057
02:14:28,120 --> 02:14:29,600
At the end of the process,
2058
02:14:29,600 --> 02:14:33,080
that wall should more or less carry on cross-colouring from light to dark
2059
02:14:33,080 --> 02:14:35,560
in a way that I hope you'll be able to see.
2060
02:14:35,560 --> 02:14:38,480
I don't want to leave the impression that we believe
2061
02:14:38,480 --> 02:14:42,120
that our retouchings and restorations make the picture look as it did.
2062
02:14:42,120 --> 02:14:45,280
We're just trying to help you understand what it is -
2063
02:14:45,280 --> 02:14:47,480
and maybe what it was.
2064
02:14:47,480 --> 02:14:52,800
It's a balancing act, but a restoration is not a renewal.
2065
02:14:52,800 --> 02:14:56,480
No. Of course, they're physical objects, made of organic materials -
2066
02:14:56,480 --> 02:14:59,480
and the second they're finished, they start to age.
2067
02:14:59,480 --> 02:15:01,160
And that's just that.
2068
02:15:01,160 --> 02:15:04,760
We haven't really talked about the meaning of this.
2069
02:15:04,760 --> 02:15:06,960
It naturally invites...
2070
02:15:06,960 --> 02:15:10,160
some consideration of the relationship of religion
2071
02:15:10,160 --> 02:15:11,920
to contemporary life.
2072
02:15:11,920 --> 02:15:14,040
The two women in the foreground
2073
02:15:14,040 --> 02:15:17,040
are clearly figures from contemporary life
2074
02:15:17,040 --> 02:15:20,600
and one has to wonder -
2075
02:15:20,600 --> 02:15:22,600
what's this really about?
2076
02:15:22,600 --> 02:15:25,000
Are they simply serving people
2077
02:15:25,000 --> 02:15:28,200
and the meal is going to go through the hatch
2078
02:15:28,200 --> 02:15:30,360
and be served in the other room?
2079
02:15:30,360 --> 02:15:35,440
Or do they, in some way, represent a modern day Mary and Martha?
2080
02:15:35,440 --> 02:15:37,560
Do you remember the story?
2081
02:15:37,560 --> 02:15:40,320
Christ comes to visit Mary and Martha
2082
02:15:40,320 --> 02:15:43,960
and Mary sits attentively at Christ's feet
2083
02:15:43,960 --> 02:15:47,840
and listens to his teaching, while Martha makes herself very busy,
2084
02:15:47,840 --> 02:15:51,800
going about all the chores and then comes to complain
2085
02:15:51,800 --> 02:15:56,160
that she's been left to do everything and Mary isn't helping.
2086
02:15:56,160 --> 02:15:58,640
And Christ chides her and says,
2087
02:15:58,640 --> 02:16:02,240
Martha, Martha, you're concerned about so many things,
2088
02:16:02,240 --> 02:16:04,680
but Mary's really taken the better path
2089
02:16:04,680 --> 02:16:08,040
in allowing time for her spiritual development.
2090
02:16:08,040 --> 02:16:10,040
And so, we have to ask ourselves,
2091
02:16:10,040 --> 02:16:13,760
is this Martha and Mary in the foreground in contemporary guise,
2092
02:16:13,760 --> 02:16:19,080
with the old woman chiding with that gesture, saying "Hurry up"?
2093
02:16:19,080 --> 02:16:24,360
Or is it maybe the worker preparing the garlic mayonnaise,
2094
02:16:24,360 --> 02:16:28,360
so busy at work and the older, wiser woman
2095
02:16:28,360 --> 02:16:34,600
reminding her to allow time for her spiritual life?
2096
02:16:34,600 --> 02:16:36,640
They're the great words,
2097
02:16:36,640 --> 02:16:40,040
used often in relation to this painting,
2098
02:16:40,040 --> 02:16:42,120
from Teresa of Avila -
2099
02:16:42,120 --> 02:16:45,520
"The Lord walks even among the kitchen pots,
2100
02:16:45,520 --> 02:16:48,360
"helping you in matters spiritual and material."
2101
02:16:50,760 --> 02:16:53,640
We have to go over to conservation studio number two.
2102
02:17:00,240 --> 02:17:02,480
MAN PLAYS PIANO BABY CRIES
2103
02:19:34,000 --> 02:19:35,760
- MAN:
- Keep it up! Make some noise!
2104
02:19:35,760 --> 02:19:37,480
CROWD CHEERS
2105
02:19:40,440 --> 02:19:42,960
HUBBUB
2106
02:20:08,280 --> 02:20:10,280
CHATTERING
2107
02:21:36,720 --> 02:21:38,920
CHATTERING
2108
02:22:12,680 --> 02:22:15,480
CHATTERING
2109
02:22:38,920 --> 02:22:42,080
WOMAN: I'm in London now, for a couple of weeks.
2110
02:22:53,480 --> 02:22:55,520
Ebony frame so, of course, interesting.
2111
02:22:55,520 --> 02:22:58,520
World first, I want to explain where I think the ripple moulding
2112
02:22:58,520 --> 02:23:01,760
comes from. These mouldings are called ripple mouldings.
2113
02:23:01,760 --> 02:23:03,520
There's a wave pattern.
2114
02:23:03,520 --> 02:23:07,840
Very interesting, they're really the only, um, ornament,
2115
02:23:07,840 --> 02:23:12,320
frame ornament that does not ultimately come from antiquity.
2116
02:23:13,440 --> 02:23:16,120
It is a non-classical ornament
2117
02:23:16,120 --> 02:23:23,800
and I think it came about because of the way the ebony is...um...
2118
02:23:23,800 --> 02:23:29,600
worked with, because when you work with ebony it is not,
2119
02:23:29,600 --> 02:23:33,720
um, carved or planed like other woods, it is scraped
2120
02:23:33,720 --> 02:23:38,160
with a scraper at right angles to the wood. Like...
2121
02:23:38,160 --> 02:23:39,840
Something like this,
2122
02:23:39,840 --> 02:23:44,680
the metal scraper that is scraped across a piece of wood
2123
02:23:44,680 --> 02:23:49,720
and lowered, incrementally, but the process of scraping is very,
2124
02:23:49,720 --> 02:23:55,640
um, the forces are quite, it's quite, um...
2125
02:23:56,800 --> 02:24:02,400
The wood is very hard and it's, it's...it is quite difficult.
2126
02:24:02,400 --> 02:24:07,320
You only scrape a tiny bit off each time and in the process,
2127
02:24:07,320 --> 02:24:12,760
the whole apparatus that you use tends to vibrate and what you have
2128
02:24:12,760 --> 02:24:17,800
is a ripple effect on the straight, this was just done straightened.
2129
02:24:17,800 --> 02:24:20,440
I'm not sure if you can see it in the light,
2130
02:24:20,440 --> 02:24:22,440
but you can certainly feel it.
2131
02:24:22,440 --> 02:24:27,040
It's a ripple that is voluntary, that is a ripple
2132
02:24:27,040 --> 02:24:29,800
that just happens when you try to scrape it straight
2133
02:24:29,800 --> 02:24:32,600
and then you just sand it out and straighten it out
2134
02:24:32,600 --> 02:24:36,600
but I think that this type of ripple out of this accidental ripple,
2135
02:24:36,600 --> 02:24:39,960
and then this is done, run over a track that goes up and down,
2136
02:24:39,960 --> 02:24:42,520
the knife goes up and down or the wood goes up
2137
02:24:42,520 --> 02:24:44,280
and down as it's scraped along.
2138
02:24:44,280 --> 02:24:48,440
Normally I'm against illuminating the way frames are made
2139
02:24:48,440 --> 02:24:50,960
because it somehow doesn't seem important.
2140
02:24:50,960 --> 02:24:54,440
If you go to a Rembrandt exhibition, no-one is going to tell you how
2141
02:24:54,440 --> 02:24:59,640
the canvas is prepared and the paints are made and all these
2142
02:24:59,640 --> 02:25:00,920
technical bits.
2143
02:25:00,920 --> 02:25:05,320
But I find it interesting with the ebony frame, that I think it is
2144
02:25:05,320 --> 02:25:10,280
accidental, and a discovery from the making of the frames.
2145
02:25:13,480 --> 02:25:16,000
FOOTSTEPS CHATTERING
2146
02:25:17,160 --> 02:25:20,680
Oh, it's 8.45 already. There's plenty of room for you all now.
2147
02:25:20,680 --> 02:25:22,680
And it's time for me to begin.
2148
02:25:22,680 --> 02:25:26,400
I'm talking about the strangely named Triumph of Pan.
2149
02:25:28,120 --> 02:25:32,640
Poussin has reconstructed these really recondite elements of ancient
2150
02:25:32,640 --> 02:25:38,600
art, that is one explanation for his way of painting.
2151
02:25:38,600 --> 02:25:44,000
He may have thought that painting in antiquity was closer to
2152
02:25:44,000 --> 02:25:48,200
sculpture, precisely because so much more sculpture had survived
2153
02:25:48,200 --> 02:25:54,120
and he could only reconstruct ancient painting in that way,
2154
02:25:54,120 --> 02:25:57,800
but it's curious that so many of the things that attract him
2155
02:25:57,800 --> 02:26:02,400
about the ancient world and which he puts into this strange,
2156
02:26:02,400 --> 02:26:05,120
strange painting are actually unnaturalistic.
2157
02:26:05,120 --> 02:26:09,680
So he knows, for example, that ancient statues of Pan,
2158
02:26:09,680 --> 02:26:13,400
as indeed is the case of figures in worship,
2159
02:26:13,400 --> 02:26:18,040
their faces were actually coated with special substances to make them
2160
02:26:18,040 --> 02:26:21,160
seem more animated or just as a type of offering.
2161
02:26:21,160 --> 02:26:23,760
So the red colour is very extraordinary
2162
02:26:23,760 --> 02:26:26,720
but what makes it extraordinary of course is that the rest
2163
02:26:26,720 --> 02:26:29,880
of the sculpture appears to be made of polished brass.
2164
02:26:29,880 --> 02:26:33,160
It means that Poussin has actually thought, "Maybe, in antiquity,
2165
02:26:33,160 --> 02:26:35,560
"they did not patinate their sculptures"
2166
02:26:35,560 --> 02:26:37,200
and he was very learned
2167
02:26:37,200 --> 02:26:40,000
and in touch with all the most erudite students
2168
02:26:40,000 --> 02:26:41,400
of antiquity in his day,
2169
02:26:41,400 --> 02:26:44,000
some of these things I've been mentioning aren't actually
2170
02:26:44,000 --> 02:26:46,080
mentioned even by modern art historical
2171
02:26:46,080 --> 02:26:47,720
commentators on it on this painting
2172
02:26:47,720 --> 02:26:51,240
but they would be of great interest to, and these subjects are of
2173
02:26:51,240 --> 02:26:55,200
great interest - the colouring faces and so on - to archaeologists today.
2174
02:26:55,200 --> 02:26:59,480
But I don't think it's quite adequate as an explanation of this picture,
2175
02:26:59,480 --> 02:27:04,480
that Poussin has just become that much more obsessed by the antique.
2176
02:27:04,480 --> 02:27:07,960
I think the clue to the stylistic character of this work
2177
02:27:07,960 --> 02:27:12,560
lies in...um, the fact that Poussin must have known
2178
02:27:12,560 --> 02:27:14,680
that he was painting pictures
2179
02:27:14,680 --> 02:27:18,280
which would hang beside old paintings by Montagna.
2180
02:27:18,280 --> 02:27:21,760
Montagna and Poussin are the two European artists
2181
02:27:21,760 --> 02:27:23,560
who are most interested in
2182
02:27:23,560 --> 02:27:26,720
trying to put something sculptural into painting.
2183
02:27:26,720 --> 02:27:30,040
And this becomes particularly interesting in the context
2184
02:27:30,040 --> 02:27:33,400
of this so-called "paragone" - the contest between the arts.
2185
02:27:33,400 --> 02:27:36,800
Tedious to us to try and work out whether painting or sculpture
2186
02:27:36,800 --> 02:27:40,520
is the greatest art, but within that, the structure of that argument,
2187
02:27:40,520 --> 02:27:43,920
people thought very intelligently about what COULD painting do
2188
02:27:43,920 --> 02:27:47,160
that sculpture couldn't do. And you could always say of sculpture
2189
02:27:47,160 --> 02:27:50,680
that movement is frozen, that space can't really be represented.
2190
02:27:50,680 --> 02:27:54,760
How odd to find a painter actually deliberately imitating
2191
02:27:54,760 --> 02:27:58,200
those precise qualities in sculpture in their painting.
2192
02:27:58,200 --> 02:28:01,120
It's a kind of reversal of what everyone else was doing.
2193
02:28:01,120 --> 02:28:03,480
And I think it's a reversal which is done for
2194
02:28:03,480 --> 02:28:06,840
people who think about art in a very, very sophisticated way,
2195
02:28:06,840 --> 02:28:12,160
people who like turning on its head the priorities and values
2196
02:28:12,160 --> 02:28:16,240
of other people, as well as the people who are not only learned,
2197
02:28:16,240 --> 02:28:18,920
but like to exhibit their learning. In short,
2198
02:28:18,920 --> 02:28:21,600
this picture is very, very elitist.
2199
02:28:21,600 --> 02:28:25,400
Making it accessible is quite hard work. It's worth doing, of course,
2200
02:28:25,400 --> 02:28:29,120
but it's really hard work, because it was painted, I think,
2201
02:28:29,120 --> 02:28:33,960
not just as a subject which was for very, very learned people
2202
02:28:33,960 --> 02:28:37,480
who liked to be more learned than other people, and show it,
2203
02:28:37,480 --> 02:28:42,600
but also its style is painted for an extremely sophisticated
2204
02:28:42,600 --> 02:28:44,680
and probably very small public.
2205
02:28:44,680 --> 02:28:47,720
I'm really thrilled we have it in the National Gallery.
2206
02:28:47,720 --> 02:28:50,080
I personally don't know whether I like it or not,
2207
02:28:50,080 --> 02:28:51,400
but I certainly think
2208
02:28:51,400 --> 02:28:54,640
it's one of the most fascinating paintings in the National Gallery.
2209
02:28:54,640 --> 02:28:57,200
It's very, very extraordinary. Thank you very much.
2210
02:29:01,440 --> 02:29:05,480
Part of the appeal of Vermeer's paintings
2211
02:29:05,480 --> 02:29:09,160
and other paintings like them in the 17th century
2212
02:29:09,160 --> 02:29:14,400
is that they create an ideal world, an ideal image,
2213
02:29:14,400 --> 02:29:21,000
that is...seductive, and absolutely, um...
2214
02:29:21,000 --> 02:29:23,480
pleasant to look at.
2215
02:29:23,480 --> 02:29:26,480
You're drawn into the beauty of it.
2216
02:29:26,480 --> 02:29:30,880
I think it's not just us in the 21st century
2217
02:29:30,880 --> 02:29:33,360
that the painting has that impact on.
2218
02:29:33,360 --> 02:29:36,760
I think it was exactly the same in the 17th century.
2219
02:29:36,760 --> 02:29:42,840
Part of that, of course, is in the way in which Vermeer paints.
2220
02:29:42,840 --> 02:29:45,920
He has an absolutely unique style
2221
02:29:45,920 --> 02:29:51,760
that somehow finds a balance between realism and abstraction.
2222
02:29:51,760 --> 02:29:54,640
From a distance, even short distance,
2223
02:29:54,640 --> 02:29:57,680
you're struck by how realistic this is.
2224
02:29:57,680 --> 02:29:59,640
You think, "Oh, wow, that woman,
2225
02:29:59,640 --> 02:30:02,520
"I want to step closer and get to know her."
2226
02:30:02,520 --> 02:30:07,160
But as you get closer, just like Impressionist paintings,
2227
02:30:07,160 --> 02:30:11,200
that sense of realism dissolves into abstraction.
2228
02:30:11,200 --> 02:30:14,840
And it remains forever elusive,
2229
02:30:14,840 --> 02:30:21,280
again creating a barrier between our world and this idea world
2230
02:30:21,280 --> 02:30:23,280
represented in the paintings.
2231
02:30:23,280 --> 02:30:27,640
I think that is intentional on Vermeer's part,
2232
02:30:27,640 --> 02:30:31,400
to, um, emphasise and to maintain
2233
02:30:31,400 --> 02:30:36,040
the perfection of the world that he's created.
2234
02:30:36,040 --> 02:30:39,560
It's also, as so many of Vermeer's paintings,
2235
02:30:39,560 --> 02:30:42,600
a very, um, ambiguous painting.
2236
02:30:42,600 --> 02:30:45,480
Because of the woman's restraint,
2237
02:30:45,480 --> 02:30:48,000
because of the absolute regularity
2238
02:30:48,000 --> 02:30:51,040
and almost austerity of the composition,
2239
02:30:51,040 --> 02:30:55,160
it's hard to tell exactly what the painting is about.
2240
02:30:55,160 --> 02:30:57,560
What might be going on in this painting.
2241
02:30:57,560 --> 02:30:59,920
Art historians can go on endlessly
2242
02:30:59,920 --> 02:31:03,680
about the symbolism of the painting in the background,
2243
02:31:03,680 --> 02:31:07,880
and, you know, the angle of this and the juxtaposition of that...
2244
02:31:07,880 --> 02:31:14,120
but how do we know that that's entirely what Vermeer had in mind?
2245
02:31:14,120 --> 02:31:17,920
And of course, as any other art historian,
2246
02:31:17,920 --> 02:31:21,800
I've written, "This means this, that means that,"
2247
02:31:21,800 --> 02:31:27,040
but there's always an element of ambiguity, a question there,
2248
02:31:27,040 --> 02:31:31,680
that I firmly believe is absolutely intentional
2249
02:31:31,680 --> 02:31:34,480
on the part of the best artists.
2250
02:31:34,480 --> 02:31:37,920
Because it's designed to keep you intrigued,
2251
02:31:37,920 --> 02:31:41,800
to keep you coming back, to keep your attention on this painting.
2252
02:31:41,800 --> 02:31:46,160
And each time you come to the painting, depending on your mood,
2253
02:31:46,160 --> 02:31:49,840
who else is in the room, what you had for lunch,
2254
02:31:49,840 --> 02:31:52,440
it's going to look slightly different.
2255
02:31:52,440 --> 02:31:56,120
It's going to appeal to you, you're going to engage with it,
2256
02:31:56,120 --> 02:31:58,000
in an entirely different way.
2257
02:32:02,760 --> 02:32:05,280
There's a very, very interesting relationship
2258
02:32:05,280 --> 02:32:07,120
between his painting technique
2259
02:32:07,120 --> 02:32:10,160
and the things that we value and prize about Caravaggio -
2260
02:32:10,160 --> 02:32:12,640
the immediacy of the effect of the models,
2261
02:32:12,640 --> 02:32:14,560
the dramatic lighting...
2262
02:32:14,560 --> 02:32:17,800
A lot of the things he does in his working practice
2263
02:32:17,800 --> 02:32:21,600
as well as the application of paint are all kind of inextricably bound
2264
02:32:21,600 --> 02:32:23,800
with what we treasure in them.
2265
02:32:23,800 --> 02:32:26,160
So I'll start off with Boy Bitten by a Lizard.
2266
02:32:26,160 --> 02:32:29,720
The main thing I'd like to convey about this picture
2267
02:32:29,720 --> 02:32:32,840
is to get you to understand a little bit
2268
02:32:32,840 --> 02:32:35,680
about how he's using his priming, his ground -
2269
02:32:35,680 --> 02:32:37,880
that's the layer he puts on the canvas
2270
02:32:37,880 --> 02:32:39,840
before he starts painting the figure.
2271
02:32:39,840 --> 02:32:44,080
In this case it's a kind of rich, bricky red-brown colour.
2272
02:32:44,080 --> 02:32:46,800
This is something that he's exploiting, then,
2273
02:32:46,800 --> 02:32:49,600
in the subsequent build-up of the paint.
2274
02:32:49,600 --> 02:32:52,960
The brown colour is left exposed quite deliberately
2275
02:32:52,960 --> 02:32:56,200
to help him evolve the modelling of the flesh tones.
2276
02:32:56,200 --> 02:32:59,680
Bellori, an important critic writing in the 1670s,
2277
02:32:59,680 --> 02:33:02,920
was already writing about this - how he used the ground exposed
2278
02:33:02,920 --> 02:33:05,880
to give the middle colours of the flesh painting.
2279
02:33:05,880 --> 02:33:08,960
You can see that in the shadow sort of around the breast
2280
02:33:08,960 --> 02:33:12,120
and the shadowed part of the cheek, the shadowed part of the hands,
2281
02:33:12,120 --> 02:33:15,400
and quite a lot of drapery painting is essentially the ground colour.
2282
02:33:15,400 --> 02:33:17,760
And it's a very economical way of proceeding,
2283
02:33:17,760 --> 02:33:20,560
because once you establish the figure, you use the ground,
2284
02:33:20,560 --> 02:33:22,960
you can put a very thin, translucent brown colour
2285
02:33:22,960 --> 02:33:25,440
to push the shadows back, and then when you build
2286
02:33:25,440 --> 02:33:28,880
the lighter colours up, when you're mixing the light-coloured paint
2287
02:33:28,880 --> 02:33:30,960
and putting it on top of a darker ground,
2288
02:33:30,960 --> 02:33:34,520
it gets very opaque very quickly, and so it's extremely economical.
2289
02:33:34,520 --> 02:33:37,520
I mean, the dark grounds are things that were evolved and used
2290
02:33:37,520 --> 02:33:40,640
more and more frequently in Italy throughout the 16th century,
2291
02:33:40,640 --> 02:33:43,440
particularly in North Italy, where he was formed.
2292
02:33:43,440 --> 02:33:47,440
And I think, however, that he managed to exploit this technique
2293
02:33:47,440 --> 02:33:50,520
and kind of make it his own and bend it toward his purposes
2294
02:33:50,520 --> 02:33:53,000
in a very characteristic way.
2295
02:33:53,000 --> 02:33:55,800
We, with Renaissance paintings,
2296
02:33:55,800 --> 02:33:59,800
have the ability generally to look with infrared reflectography
2297
02:33:59,800 --> 02:34:02,520
and see evidence of initial drawing,
2298
02:34:02,520 --> 02:34:06,000
and that's based on a carbon containing charcoal or something
2299
02:34:06,000 --> 02:34:07,720
drawn on top of a light ground,
2300
02:34:07,720 --> 02:34:11,200
and so the contrast is something we can pick up with infrared.
2301
02:34:11,200 --> 02:34:14,480
Now with these pictures, traditionally, with the dark ground
2302
02:34:14,480 --> 02:34:17,360
and whatever kind of paint that might have been used to draw,
2303
02:34:17,360 --> 02:34:20,080
you really don't see anything with that technique,
2304
02:34:20,080 --> 02:34:22,920
so it's always been a great mystery about Caravaggio -
2305
02:34:22,920 --> 02:34:26,120
did he draw, and in what sense did he do preparatory drawing?
2306
02:34:26,120 --> 02:34:28,960
Because we don't have, really, drawings on paper.
2307
02:34:28,960 --> 02:34:32,720
He's playing a bit of a game with you about what skill is
2308
02:34:32,720 --> 02:34:36,320
and what craft is and how speedy and confident he was.
2309
02:34:36,320 --> 02:34:39,600
There's a kind of... Seemingly a taste or a desire
2310
02:34:39,600 --> 02:34:42,840
to look, to have that kind of sprezzatura, the brio,
2311
02:34:42,840 --> 02:34:46,160
the ability to do something, to knock it off very confidently.
2312
02:34:46,160 --> 02:34:48,640
But like many things in Caravaggio,
2313
02:34:48,640 --> 02:34:51,840
what may seem...what is indeed revolutionary
2314
02:34:51,840 --> 02:34:56,840
is still grounded in a very careful and considered use of his materials.
2315
02:34:56,840 --> 02:35:01,600
And somebody who always, whatever the sordid details of his personal life,
2316
02:35:01,600 --> 02:35:05,800
somebody who always was in really fantastic control of his materials
2317
02:35:05,800 --> 02:35:08,000
and understanding of how the paint worked.
2318
02:35:08,000 --> 02:35:10,640
So I think that's the thing I'd like to leave with you.
2319
02:35:19,160 --> 02:35:22,920
What's going on here? What's happened in my absence?
2320
02:35:24,200 --> 02:35:25,640
In your absence.
2321
02:35:25,640 --> 02:35:28,600
- Well, we've done a bit of a re-hang, as you can tell.
- Yeah.
2322
02:35:28,600 --> 02:35:30,920
Definitely. It's changed a lot, actually.
2323
02:35:30,920 --> 02:35:35,120
I think there's only two or three pictures that haven't actually moved.
2324
02:35:35,120 --> 02:35:37,280
So basically what we had to do,
2325
02:35:37,280 --> 02:35:40,880
we had to find a spot for The Virgin of the Rocks.
2326
02:35:40,880 --> 02:35:43,800
And here it is now. What do you think?
2327
02:35:44,960 --> 02:35:47,880
I was thinking that it looked strange, actually.
2328
02:35:47,880 --> 02:35:50,040
That change a lot from before.
2329
02:35:50,040 --> 02:35:52,000
First reaction...
2330
02:35:52,000 --> 02:35:56,640
it's something that I think is visual, you know?
2331
02:35:58,760 --> 02:36:00,640
There's another...
2332
02:36:01,800 --> 02:36:04,440
Another world of colour, if you know what I mean.
2333
02:36:04,440 --> 02:36:06,400
It's a completely different world.
2334
02:36:06,400 --> 02:36:08,840
When we saw it downstairs in the exhibition,
2335
02:36:08,840 --> 02:36:12,160
how nicely it worked with the other, later Milanese pictures,
2336
02:36:12,160 --> 02:36:15,000
and that the composition may be Florentine,
2337
02:36:15,000 --> 02:36:17,640
but the whole painting is Milanese.
2338
02:36:17,640 --> 02:36:20,120
There is a theoretical issue that,
2339
02:36:20,120 --> 02:36:23,240
as you said, it's a Milanese painting,
2340
02:36:23,240 --> 02:36:28,160
but also visually I think that it's something a bit puzzling, isn't it?
2341
02:36:28,160 --> 02:36:32,160
Possibly... Even if the drawing probably is Florentine.
2342
02:36:32,160 --> 02:36:34,720
Well, the idea, the composition is Florentine,
2343
02:36:34,720 --> 02:36:37,160
and of course, you know, now you have...
2344
02:36:37,160 --> 02:36:40,360
It's a difficult picture to find a place for, actually,
2345
02:36:40,360 --> 02:36:41,600
in the gallery.
2346
02:36:41,600 --> 02:36:45,680
And there is an argument to be made, and I think, in a way, it works,
2347
02:36:45,680 --> 02:36:48,240
and you show him together with Verrocchio,
2348
02:36:48,240 --> 02:36:51,080
with his teacher, and, you know, side by side.
2349
02:36:51,080 --> 02:36:52,760
But, er...
2350
02:36:52,760 --> 02:36:54,520
it doesn't sing as nicely.
2351
02:36:54,520 --> 02:36:55,920
It did sing downstairs.
2352
02:36:55,920 --> 02:37:00,240
The only thing is...it might be instructive seeing how Leonardo...
2353
02:37:00,240 --> 02:37:02,680
How Leonardo evolution...
2354
02:37:02,680 --> 02:37:05,960
- is completely different.
- How it moves into a different direction.
2355
02:37:05,960 --> 02:37:09,960
If you put in relations with his old Florentine friends,
2356
02:37:09,960 --> 02:37:12,800
that is quite a struggle, but actually,
2357
02:37:12,800 --> 02:37:15,480
contrast the way of...
2358
02:37:15,480 --> 02:37:18,600
The display of our own one.
2359
02:37:18,600 --> 02:37:21,000
I think it's...quite strange.
2360
02:37:21,000 --> 02:37:22,600
But there's something quite nice
2361
02:37:22,600 --> 02:37:24,600
about this being situated in the corner,
2362
02:37:24,600 --> 02:37:26,720
because you enter the Sainsbury Wing
2363
02:37:26,720 --> 02:37:29,120
and you kind of meander throughout the rooms
2364
02:37:29,120 --> 02:37:31,640
and then you discover the Leonardo in the corner
2365
02:37:31,640 --> 02:37:35,520
almost as if you'd discovered the kind of little grouping in the cave.
2366
02:37:35,520 --> 02:37:38,520
- Which...is quite nice.
- Mm.
2367
02:37:41,160 --> 02:37:43,600
RADIO: Bravo 1 receiving, over.
2368
02:37:49,000 --> 02:37:54,240
In Titian's letter, he says, "I'm painting," er, "Diana,
2369
02:37:54,240 --> 02:37:56,760
"surprised by Actaeon,
2370
02:37:56,760 --> 02:37:59,640
"and Actaeon..." What's the word he uses?
2371
02:37:59,640 --> 02:38:02,400
"..lacerated by his own hounds."
2372
02:38:02,400 --> 02:38:04,040
So originally, these two pictures
2373
02:38:04,040 --> 02:38:07,760
would have been the pair that he wanted to send to King Philip.
2374
02:38:07,760 --> 02:38:11,640
This painting remains in Titian's studio, never finished by Titian,
2375
02:38:11,640 --> 02:38:14,080
and is bought from his studio after his death.
2376
02:38:14,080 --> 02:38:15,440
So he decides not to do this,
2377
02:38:15,440 --> 02:38:19,400
and instead he produces Diana and Callisto as the pair,
2378
02:38:19,400 --> 02:38:22,280
- so he has...
- A different one?
- Yeah, it's different,
2379
02:38:22,280 --> 02:38:25,320
but they both show Diana as taking sort of vengeance
2380
02:38:25,320 --> 02:38:28,080
on a mortal, or on a...um...
2381
02:38:28,080 --> 02:38:30,600
And also the moment of...
2382
02:38:30,600 --> 02:38:33,640
Interestingly, they're kind of opposite pictures,
2383
02:38:33,640 --> 02:38:38,280
because...here, the pregnant nymph Callisto
2384
02:38:38,280 --> 02:38:41,800
is being exposed, and Diana realises she's pregnant.
2385
02:38:41,800 --> 02:38:44,440
Here, it's Diana who's being exposed,
2386
02:38:44,440 --> 02:38:48,480
and who is... By Actaeon, and here there is a female of Diana
2387
02:38:48,480 --> 02:38:50,720
and here a male victim. HE COUGHS
2388
02:38:50,720 --> 02:38:54,560
They were probably hung opposite each other, so we've tried to suggest that
2389
02:38:54,560 --> 02:38:56,560
by putting them a little bit differently.
2390
02:38:56,560 --> 02:38:58,760
But we want people to see this with that.
2391
02:38:58,760 --> 02:39:01,600
- This picture we acquired 25 years ago...
- From?
2392
02:39:01,600 --> 02:39:04,720
- From Lord Harewood.
- So it was in England.
2393
02:39:04,720 --> 02:39:06,760
Yeah, in England. The Earl of Harewood
2394
02:39:06,760 --> 02:39:09,160
had the painting from Lord Darnley,
2395
02:39:09,160 --> 02:39:14,480
who...whose great-great-great grandfather purchased it
2396
02:39:14,480 --> 02:39:17,120
at the Orleans sale.
2397
02:39:17,120 --> 02:39:19,680
How it got to the Orleans Collection,
2398
02:39:19,680 --> 02:39:22,680
it got to the Orleans Collection because, er,
2399
02:39:22,680 --> 02:39:27,320
it was one of the pictures that, um...
2400
02:39:28,320 --> 02:39:30,800
From... The Queen of Sweden
2401
02:39:30,800 --> 02:39:34,320
acquired it on her way to Rome.
2402
02:39:34,320 --> 02:39:35,960
I think.
2403
02:39:35,960 --> 02:39:38,760
Yes, that's the best explanation.
2404
02:39:38,760 --> 02:39:41,720
And then these pictures were actually presented
2405
02:39:41,720 --> 02:39:44,000
by the Spanish crown
2406
02:39:44,000 --> 02:39:47,840
to, I think, the French ambassador,
2407
02:39:47,840 --> 02:39:52,520
who was acquiring them for, er, the Regent of France,
2408
02:39:52,520 --> 02:39:56,080
who was, of course, a very, very great art collector.
2409
02:39:56,080 --> 02:39:58,680
Painted in the 1550s, sent to Spain,
2410
02:39:58,680 --> 02:40:01,200
- stay in Spain until...
- A couple of hundred years.
2411
02:40:01,200 --> 02:40:03,560
Couple of hundred years, and then go to France,
2412
02:40:03,560 --> 02:40:05,960
into the semi-royal collection of the Duke d'Orleans,
2413
02:40:05,960 --> 02:40:07,200
and then to England.
2414
02:40:07,200 --> 02:40:09,440
I'm very fond of the Duke d'Orleans.
2415
02:40:09,440 --> 02:40:11,800
He was a good guy in his, er...
2416
02:40:11,800 --> 02:40:15,280
Yeah, and he was also, you know, he was an amateur cook.
2417
02:40:15,280 --> 02:40:21,000
He was one of the first, um... princely, or noble, people,
2418
02:40:21,000 --> 02:40:24,120
who is known to have liked to do his own cooking
2419
02:40:24,120 --> 02:40:25,720
and experiment with cooking.
2420
02:40:25,720 --> 02:40:29,800
hat he did...after dinner is a different matter.
2421
02:40:29,800 --> 02:40:31,480
THEY LAUGH
2422
02:40:31,480 --> 02:40:34,800
- I think it's nice that he...
- Common habit, cooker, yeah, yeah.
2423
02:40:34,800 --> 02:40:38,640
Anyway, we know he liked arranging his own paintings,
2424
02:40:38,640 --> 02:40:41,360
but what amazes me about him is that when he got
2425
02:40:41,360 --> 02:40:44,600
the great collection of the Queen of Sweden from Rome -
2426
02:40:44,600 --> 02:40:47,400
she took ten or 15 years to negotiate -
2427
02:40:47,400 --> 02:40:49,880
he then hung...
2428
02:40:49,880 --> 02:40:52,360
He wanted to see the paintings,
2429
02:40:52,360 --> 02:40:56,280
obviously he would have new French frames made for them,
2430
02:40:56,280 --> 02:40:57,880
um...
2431
02:40:57,880 --> 02:41:00,160
of course, cos everyone would do that,
2432
02:41:00,160 --> 02:41:01,960
but before he had them made,
2433
02:41:01,960 --> 02:41:04,960
he wanted to see them in the frames
2434
02:41:04,960 --> 02:41:08,320
which that... "Cette grande princesse" -
2435
02:41:08,320 --> 02:41:11,760
the Queen of Sweden, had seen them in.
2436
02:41:11,760 --> 02:41:13,720
I think that's fantastic.
2437
02:42:35,800 --> 02:42:37,600
Right, OK.
2438
02:42:40,120 --> 02:42:43,920
I'm going to read a poem called Callisto's Song.
2439
02:42:43,920 --> 02:42:48,440
Callisto was the nymph who was then turned into a bear
2440
02:42:48,440 --> 02:42:53,120
who ended her life flung up into the heavens as a constellation.
2441
02:42:53,120 --> 02:42:55,560
She became the Great Bear.
2442
02:42:55,560 --> 02:42:59,480
So in order to write her poem in her voice,
2443
02:42:59,480 --> 02:43:04,800
I had to imagine how a constellation might sound,
2444
02:43:04,800 --> 02:43:10,400
so on the page, visually, I've translated her noise,
2445
02:43:10,400 --> 02:43:12,920
her song as a star,
2446
02:43:12,920 --> 02:43:17,200
into every word being divided by an asterisk.
2447
02:43:17,200 --> 02:43:19,400
So it looks like a constellation.
2448
02:43:19,400 --> 02:43:23,720
In my head I feel if I could read it as I hear her,
2449
02:43:23,720 --> 02:43:28,760
there would be kind of white noise, star crunching, crackling noises
2450
02:43:28,760 --> 02:43:30,760
between every word.
2451
02:43:30,760 --> 02:43:33,800
But I can't really do that, so probably the most you'll hear
2452
02:43:33,800 --> 02:43:35,240
is a little syncopation.
2453
02:43:38,160 --> 02:43:39,800
Callisto's Song.
2454
02:43:41,400 --> 02:43:45,400
Stars, stars, stars, stars
2455
02:43:45,400 --> 02:43:48,640
And I am made of them now
2456
02:43:48,640 --> 02:43:51,160
Looking down on myself then
2457
02:43:51,160 --> 02:43:53,680
A colorito woman, yes
2458
02:43:53,680 --> 02:43:56,480
That was me in my red sandals
2459
02:43:56,480 --> 02:44:01,600
The great outdoors curtained Goldened, embroidered
2460
02:44:01,600 --> 02:44:04,080
And heat shimmer above blue mountains
2461
02:44:04,080 --> 02:44:07,440
Nothing vertical, not even the plinth
2462
02:44:07,440 --> 02:44:09,200
And no speech.
2463
02:44:09,200 --> 02:44:12,400
No names, then, just a cry
2464
02:44:12,400 --> 02:44:14,880
As the busybody nymphs stripped me
2465
02:44:14,880 --> 02:44:18,520
Because we all had rounded bellies then
2466
02:44:18,520 --> 02:44:21,040
But nine months gone
2467
02:44:21,040 --> 02:44:24,200
So my navel curved like a gash
2468
02:44:24,200 --> 02:44:28,040
And oh, so noticeable among all the diagonals
2469
02:44:28,040 --> 02:44:30,840
And everyone looking a different way
2470
02:44:30,840 --> 02:44:32,800
Looking a lot
2471
02:44:32,800 --> 02:44:34,840
Especially the goddess
2472
02:44:34,840 --> 02:44:36,960
Her arrow arm pointing
2473
02:44:36,960 --> 02:44:39,080
Bow mouth strong
2474
02:44:39,080 --> 02:44:41,080
And dogs crouched
2475
02:44:41,080 --> 02:44:43,800
Because they sensed consequences
2476
02:44:43,800 --> 02:44:45,960
And gods arriving
2477
02:44:45,960 --> 02:44:49,280
And doing what gods do upstairs
2478
02:44:49,280 --> 02:44:51,800
And the artist's finger, loaded
2479
02:44:51,800 --> 02:44:53,920
And the paint alive
2480
02:44:53,920 --> 02:44:56,440
Alive with stars
2481
02:44:56,440 --> 02:45:01,800
Stars, stars, stars, stars.
2482
02:45:01,800 --> 02:45:07,320
So can we start off by talking about the painting?
2483
02:45:07,320 --> 02:45:10,320
Diana's such a powerful figure.
2484
02:45:10,320 --> 02:45:13,040
She's female...
2485
02:45:13,040 --> 02:45:17,120
but full of fire and strength.
2486
02:45:17,120 --> 02:45:19,760
She's very intriguing.
2487
02:45:19,760 --> 02:45:22,520
Her reaction to Callisto is fascinating,
2488
02:45:22,520 --> 02:45:25,840
because Diana is of course the goddess of chastity.
2489
02:45:25,840 --> 02:45:29,480
She's actually faced with another female
2490
02:45:29,480 --> 02:45:32,440
at the kind of maximum moment of fecundity,
2491
02:45:32,440 --> 02:45:37,200
so there's a tension and a kind of fury in Diana
2492
02:45:37,200 --> 02:45:40,920
that you feel goes beyond anything that Callisto's done.
2493
02:45:40,920 --> 02:45:44,560
Because after all, in a sense Callisto's been raped,
2494
02:45:44,560 --> 02:45:48,840
and now, in this revelation, she's raped again
2495
02:45:48,840 --> 02:45:51,400
by the pointing finger.
2496
02:45:51,400 --> 02:45:57,520
So, um, it's.... I think it's the dynamic of these different sides
2497
02:45:57,520 --> 02:45:59,360
of femaleness, of womanhood,
2498
02:45:59,360 --> 02:46:02,640
that come through in the story as Titian tells it.
2499
02:46:02,640 --> 02:46:07,840
If you like, every poem is a kind of crude translation of something else.
2500
02:46:07,840 --> 02:46:13,360
Our poems never, never reach what we want them to.
2501
02:46:13,360 --> 02:46:15,960
You know, we're always, in a way...
2502
02:46:15,960 --> 02:46:18,280
hampered by language.
2503
02:46:18,280 --> 02:46:20,400
And that's what's wonderful.
2504
02:46:20,400 --> 02:46:23,360
Yeats talks about "the fascination of what's difficult,"
2505
02:46:23,360 --> 02:46:27,000
and the fact that language isn't perfect, the fact that
2506
02:46:27,000 --> 02:46:30,000
when I say the word "hand" it is not my hand,
2507
02:46:30,000 --> 02:46:32,720
is really beautiful and poignant to me.
2508
02:46:32,720 --> 02:46:36,520
So in a way, all of my poems are efforts to translate
2509
02:46:36,520 --> 02:46:39,320
something else, and they never quite do.
2510
02:46:39,320 --> 02:46:42,840
But the gap is... The meaning is all in the gaps.
2511
02:46:42,840 --> 02:46:46,160
And I felt that with Callisto's Song,
2512
02:46:46,160 --> 02:46:50,040
that I set myself, you know, not just a gap,
2513
02:46:50,040 --> 02:46:53,240
but sort of several light-years to straddle between
2514
02:46:53,240 --> 02:46:56,640
what she might sing and how I might transcribe it.
2515
02:47:57,880 --> 02:48:00,480
MUSIC STARTS
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