All language subtitles for Batman.&.Bill.2017.720p.BluRay.x264.[YTS.MX]-English
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1
00:00:12,346 --> 00:00:13,466
Good morning, guys.
2
00:00:13,472 --> 00:00:16,182
Good morning.
3
00:00:16,183 --> 00:00:18,434
Have you heard of Batman?
4
00:00:18,435 --> 00:00:19,445
Yes.
5
00:00:19,453 --> 00:00:21,150
Just checking and just kidding.
6
00:00:21,151 --> 00:00:22,896
Of course you've
heard of Batman.
7
00:00:22,898 --> 00:00:24,357
So I have had the honor
8
00:00:24,358 --> 00:00:26,737
of getting invited to
speak all over the world
9
00:00:26,738 --> 00:00:29,275
to tell the story that
you're about to hear.
10
00:00:29,279 --> 00:00:30,339
And everywhere I go,
11
00:00:30,340 --> 00:00:32,198
whether it's Tanzania in Africa
12
00:00:32,199 --> 00:00:33,829
or Chile in South America
13
00:00:33,830 --> 00:00:35,485
or Hong Kong or Thailand
14
00:00:35,494 --> 00:00:37,163
or the United Arab Emirates,
15
00:00:37,164 --> 00:00:39,541
everywhere I go,
I show that symbol,
16
00:00:39,542 --> 00:00:40,870
and I have not been to a school
17
00:00:40,874 --> 00:00:44,340
anywhere in the world where
someone doesn't know it.
18
00:00:44,341 --> 00:00:46,876
Now don't worry if you're
not interested in superheroes
19
00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,090
because I've done
this many times,
20
00:00:49,091 --> 00:00:52,138
and I can guarantee everyone
here, including staff,
21
00:00:52,139 --> 00:00:54,845
that you will walk out
of this room in an hour
22
00:00:54,846 --> 00:00:56,305
with a different perspective
23
00:00:56,306 --> 00:00:59,176
than you have right now,
I guarantee it.
24
00:00:59,184 --> 00:01:03,604
On every Batman story
since the first in 1939,
25
00:01:03,605 --> 00:01:06,395
there was only one name
in the credit line.
26
00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,819
"Batman created by Bob Kane."
27
00:01:09,820 --> 00:01:11,946
Here he is.
28
00:01:11,947 --> 00:01:16,867
And here's the thing
about that credit line:
29
00:01:16,868 --> 00:01:20,828
It is not true.
30
00:01:41,393 --> 00:01:42,560
The reason I do explain why
31
00:01:42,561 --> 00:01:44,331
that I like superheroes
is a little bit pat,
32
00:01:44,332 --> 00:01:46,059
and it maybe is a
little bit disingenuous
33
00:01:46,064 --> 00:01:48,654
because I wasn't thinking
like this as a kid.
34
00:01:52,612 --> 00:01:54,741
But I do like stories
of selflessness
35
00:01:54,742 --> 00:01:56,740
and I like stories of sacrifice,
36
00:01:56,742 --> 00:02:01,746
and superheroes sacrifice
something on a daily basis.
37
00:02:06,918 --> 00:02:08,418
Superheroes are not doing this
38
00:02:08,420 --> 00:02:11,339
to get paid or praised,
and it is not about them.
39
00:02:11,340 --> 00:02:13,549
They are doing something
for the greater good,
40
00:02:13,550 --> 00:02:15,840
then they disappear
into the night.
41
00:02:18,180 --> 00:02:21,890
The notion of that is
so rare in real life.
42
00:02:21,892 --> 00:02:23,351
I mean, we know so few people
43
00:02:23,352 --> 00:02:26,020
that can afford to be selfless.
44
00:02:29,524 --> 00:02:31,654
As a six-year-old,
I wasn't thinking like that,
45
00:02:31,655 --> 00:02:34,111
even as a 12- or 15-year-old.
46
00:02:34,112 --> 00:02:35,279
I just liked a good story,
47
00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:36,570
a good adventure,
and I still do,
48
00:02:36,573 --> 00:02:38,833
so it was a combination
of those things,
49
00:02:38,834 --> 00:02:40,655
this purity of purpose
50
00:02:40,661 --> 00:02:43,704
and then just a
great cliff-hanging,
51
00:02:43,705 --> 00:02:45,955
rollicking adventure.
52
00:03:10,524 --> 00:03:12,942
Here is the Batman section.
53
00:03:12,943 --> 00:03:17,196
One, two, three, four
full... almost full shelves.
54
00:03:17,197 --> 00:03:20,327
And compare that to Superman.
55
00:03:21,827 --> 00:03:22,947
Not knocking Superman,
56
00:03:22,953 --> 00:03:25,246
but just looking at the reality.
57
00:03:25,247 --> 00:03:27,915
Here's Superman
up to about there.
58
00:03:27,916 --> 00:03:31,335
Batman is not only
the most identifiable
59
00:03:31,336 --> 00:03:32,916
and recognizable and famous
60
00:03:32,921 --> 00:03:34,008
and beloved superhero,
61
00:03:34,009 --> 00:03:36,465
but he is one of
the most recognizable
62
00:03:36,466 --> 00:03:38,175
fictional characters
of all time.
63
00:03:38,176 --> 00:03:40,716
Can take almost any
Batman book off the shelf
64
00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,680
and open to the title page.
65
00:03:44,683 --> 00:03:46,892
"Batman created by Bob Kane."
66
00:03:50,939 --> 00:03:53,979
Bob, for the few people who
come from another planet,
67
00:03:53,984 --> 00:03:55,864
who may not know what you do,
68
00:03:55,865 --> 00:03:58,154
what is it that
you're known for?
69
00:03:58,155 --> 00:03:59,275
You've got to be kidding.
70
00:03:59,281 --> 00:04:00,865
I am, of course.
71
00:04:00,866 --> 00:04:04,034
Bob Kane is the original
cartoonist of Batman
72
00:04:04,035 --> 00:04:06,365
and the man who has
been credited on Batman
73
00:04:06,371 --> 00:04:08,168
for most of Batman's history.
74
00:04:08,169 --> 00:04:09,825
When I was 18, I tripped across
75
00:04:09,833 --> 00:04:11,252
a character called Batman.
76
00:04:11,253 --> 00:04:12,641
Bat... how do you pronounce that?
77
00:04:12,644 --> 00:04:15,212
- Batman?
- B-A-T-man.
78
00:04:15,213 --> 00:04:17,633
It was called
"Batman by Robert Kane."
79
00:04:17,634 --> 00:04:21,594
In 1938, two gangly kids
80
00:04:21,595 --> 00:04:23,045
from Cleveland, Ohio
81
00:04:23,054 --> 00:04:26,307
sold an idea for a
character named Superman.
82
00:04:26,308 --> 00:04:28,888
Superman was a huge
influence on Bob Kane,
83
00:04:28,894 --> 00:04:32,062
not the creative side,
the financial side.
84
00:04:32,063 --> 00:04:33,898
So I thought of, yeah,
85
00:04:33,899 --> 00:04:35,818
"How much money is
Siegel and Shuster making?"
86
00:04:35,819 --> 00:04:38,027
They were the
creators of Superman.
87
00:04:38,028 --> 00:04:39,448
And in those days, in '39,
88
00:04:39,449 --> 00:04:42,236
they were making
$800 apiece a week.
89
00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,867
When Bob Kane found
out how much money
90
00:04:44,868 --> 00:04:47,658
the Superman creators were
making on a weekly basis
91
00:04:47,662 --> 00:04:49,580
which was $800 at the time,
92
00:04:49,581 --> 00:04:51,290
he went to an
editor at National.
93
00:04:51,291 --> 00:04:54,919
He said, "Listen, Bob, can
you do another superhero?"
94
00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:56,290
I said, "For that kind of money",
95
00:04:56,291 --> 00:04:57,354
you'll have it on Monday."
96
00:04:57,355 --> 00:04:59,264
For that kind of money,
you'd be the superhero.
97
00:04:59,265 --> 00:05:00,345
Boy, you better believe it.
98
00:05:00,350 --> 00:05:02,927
I'll steal it somewhere.
99
00:05:02,928 --> 00:05:04,807
And I went home,
and lo and behold
100
00:05:04,808 --> 00:05:07,014
I thought about all
my childhood heroes
101
00:05:07,015 --> 00:05:10,135
when I was a kid and
my world of fantasy.
102
00:05:10,143 --> 00:05:11,443
And on Monday, I came up with
103
00:05:11,444 --> 00:05:14,266
a very crude drawing of Batman.
104
00:05:14,272 --> 00:05:16,322
And the rest is
history that Batman...
105
00:05:16,323 --> 00:05:19,396
Batman is my claim to infamy.
106
00:05:25,784 --> 00:05:27,790
Well, like most adults
that like superheroes,
107
00:05:27,791 --> 00:05:29,576
my interest started
when I was a kid.
108
00:05:29,579 --> 00:05:31,119
I just never outgrew it.
109
00:05:31,122 --> 00:05:35,125
And that began a passion
that I had most of my life.
110
00:05:35,126 --> 00:05:36,476
I had a little
gap in adolescence
111
00:05:36,478 --> 00:05:39,048
when I had to distance
myself from things
112
00:05:39,049 --> 00:05:42,337
that could get in the
way of girls and life,
113
00:05:42,342 --> 00:05:43,842
but for the most
part, I've stuck
114
00:05:43,844 --> 00:05:46,512
with superheroes my whole life.
115
00:05:46,513 --> 00:05:49,101
I am an author of
books for young people,
116
00:05:49,102 --> 00:05:51,228
and some of them are
books for all ages.
117
00:05:51,229 --> 00:05:53,136
And I've written about 75 books.
118
00:05:53,144 --> 00:05:55,813
This is my first-ever book.
119
00:05:55,814 --> 00:05:57,690
The Felix Activity Book.
120
00:05:57,691 --> 00:06:01,151
Tour de force, I'm sure you
remember it well from 1996.
121
00:06:01,152 --> 00:06:03,281
And then here's the epic sequel,
122
00:06:03,282 --> 00:06:04,908
Felix Explores our World.
123
00:06:04,909 --> 00:06:07,236
I think the recurring
theme of my nonfiction
124
00:06:07,242 --> 00:06:09,492
is untold stories.
125
00:06:09,494 --> 00:06:10,703
Boys of Steel.
126
00:06:10,704 --> 00:06:13,464
Biography of Jerry
Siegel and Joe Shuster,
127
00:06:13,465 --> 00:06:15,165
creators of Superman.
128
00:06:15,166 --> 00:06:17,126
There are sometimes
tragic stories
129
00:06:17,127 --> 00:06:19,336
behind these iconic characters.
130
00:06:19,337 --> 00:06:24,007
Marc loves to bring out
the story behind a story,
131
00:06:24,009 --> 00:06:25,839
so he goes deep,
132
00:06:25,844 --> 00:06:27,894
and he's also very
persistent also
133
00:06:27,895 --> 00:06:29,555
as a human being.
134
00:06:29,556 --> 00:06:31,456
You got two toothpastes
because you didn't know
135
00:06:31,457 --> 00:06:32,677
if I wanted fluoride or not?
136
00:06:32,684 --> 00:06:34,900
- Yeah.
- Because they just announced
137
00:06:34,901 --> 00:06:36,185
that fluoride is a toxin now.
138
00:06:36,187 --> 00:06:37,396
I know that.
139
00:06:37,397 --> 00:06:38,397
I told you all along.
140
00:06:38,398 --> 00:06:40,107
It's in the water,
it's in the toothpaste.
141
00:06:40,108 --> 00:06:41,858
No, I know it's there,
but that doesn't mean
142
00:06:41,859 --> 00:06:43,697
- it's a toxin.
- Oh, you're filming us?
143
00:06:43,698 --> 00:06:45,235
I definitely feel sometimes
144
00:06:45,238 --> 00:06:46,868
that I'm not only
married to a writer,
145
00:06:46,869 --> 00:06:50,485
but also even
more so a detective.
146
00:06:50,493 --> 00:06:51,873
When I decided to write a book
147
00:06:51,874 --> 00:06:55,414
on the story behind Batman,
it hadn't been done yet.
148
00:06:55,415 --> 00:06:57,035
Whenever you start
a research project,
149
00:06:57,042 --> 00:06:58,876
you can't possibly know how much
150
00:06:58,877 --> 00:07:00,307
or how little
you're going to find.
151
00:07:00,311 --> 00:07:03,009
In this case, I was going
into the Batman book
152
00:07:03,010 --> 00:07:04,626
knowing that there were secrets
153
00:07:04,633 --> 00:07:06,592
that hadn't been
widely discussed,
154
00:07:06,593 --> 00:07:11,639
but I had no way to know it
was a lot more than that.
155
00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:12,640
So this story, for me,
156
00:07:12,641 --> 00:07:16,268
was uncovering a
big superhero secret
157
00:07:16,269 --> 00:07:20,019
that should have been
blown wide decades ago.
158
00:07:24,152 --> 00:07:26,570
In New York in 1965,
159
00:07:26,571 --> 00:07:28,618
was the first
official Comic Con,
160
00:07:28,619 --> 00:07:31,075
and the reason that
this is considered
161
00:07:31,076 --> 00:07:32,696
the first official Comic Con
162
00:07:32,702 --> 00:07:34,121
is because it was the first time
163
00:07:34,122 --> 00:07:35,540
that professionals showed up,
164
00:07:35,541 --> 00:07:38,118
not just fans in
a hotel basement
165
00:07:38,124 --> 00:07:39,708
with some back issues.
166
00:07:39,709 --> 00:07:42,336
This was historic,
this was a big deal.
167
00:07:42,337 --> 00:07:43,657
They didn't know it at the time,
168
00:07:43,663 --> 00:07:44,803
but it was a big deal.
169
00:07:44,804 --> 00:07:47,588
There were 200 of us
at that Comic Con.
170
00:07:49,594 --> 00:07:51,887
And this place was so sketchy.
171
00:07:51,888 --> 00:07:53,847
And we got there,
and my mother freaked
172
00:07:53,848 --> 00:07:55,598
when she saw where we were.
173
00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,188
There was literally
a guy drunk, unconscious
174
00:07:58,189 --> 00:07:59,645
on the floor in the lobby,
175
00:07:59,646 --> 00:08:02,016
and roaches on the walls,
and she just said,
176
00:08:02,023 --> 00:08:03,423
"We're out of here,
we're leaving."
177
00:08:03,424 --> 00:08:05,106
The hotel itself,
a few months later,
178
00:08:05,110 --> 00:08:06,988
actually, much of it collapsed.
179
00:08:06,989 --> 00:08:09,526
Luckily, it didn't do so
while we were in there,
180
00:08:09,531 --> 00:08:11,281
but none of us was
particularly surprised
181
00:08:11,282 --> 00:08:13,452
to hear that the Broadway
Central had collapsed.
182
00:08:13,453 --> 00:08:16,537
My mom finally said,
"Okay, we'll stay,"
183
00:08:16,538 --> 00:08:18,618
and you can go up to this
comic book convention,
184
00:08:18,623 --> 00:08:20,499
"but don't touch anything."
185
00:08:20,500 --> 00:08:22,500
And as we went through the bar,
186
00:08:22,502 --> 00:08:24,799
we saw Otto Binder
sitting there at the bar
187
00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:26,206
with another guy drinking.
188
00:08:26,214 --> 00:08:29,093
And we go in and we sit
down on the stools.
189
00:08:29,094 --> 00:08:31,342
And he goes, "What are
you boys drinking?"
190
00:08:31,344 --> 00:08:33,387
We ordered our Cokes.
191
00:08:33,388 --> 00:08:35,806
And Otto turns to me and Bob,
192
00:08:35,807 --> 00:08:38,637
he said, "Boys, how
would you like to meet"
193
00:08:38,643 --> 00:08:40,811
the creator of Batman?"
194
00:08:40,812 --> 00:08:42,730
And, like, our jaws dropped,
195
00:08:42,731 --> 00:08:46,150
our eyes had to be wide open,
196
00:08:46,151 --> 00:08:50,988
and we figured we were
going to meet Bob Kane,
197
00:08:50,989 --> 00:08:52,819
which was the only
name we ever saw
198
00:08:52,824 --> 00:08:54,834
on a comic book, it
was always in a box
199
00:08:54,835 --> 00:08:58,495
with a big "O" for Bob.
200
00:08:58,496 --> 00:09:02,956
And Otto said, "Fellas,
meet Bill Finger."
201
00:09:07,172 --> 00:09:09,131
So in 1965 at this Comic Con,
202
00:09:09,132 --> 00:09:10,510
in this dingy hotel in New York,
203
00:09:10,511 --> 00:09:12,588
Bill Finger made what
is probably his first
204
00:09:12,594 --> 00:09:14,641
and maybe his only
public appearance,
205
00:09:14,642 --> 00:09:16,007
and he appeared on a panel
206
00:09:16,014 --> 00:09:17,814
with three other
comics' creators.
207
00:09:17,815 --> 00:09:21,185
At this panel,
Bill was introduced
208
00:09:21,186 --> 00:09:23,686
by the moderator whose
name was Jerry Bails.
209
00:09:32,906 --> 00:09:34,106
And perhaps we'll hear some...
210
00:09:34,107 --> 00:09:37,657
Jerry was the fan,
who in 1964 or so,
211
00:09:37,660 --> 00:09:39,450
figured out that it could not be
212
00:09:39,454 --> 00:09:42,674
just this one guy, Bob Kane,
writing and drawing
213
00:09:42,675 --> 00:09:45,535
every Batman story every month.
214
00:09:45,543 --> 00:09:47,881
So Jerry did some
detective work of his own.
215
00:09:47,882 --> 00:09:50,047
He wrote letters
to DC Comics saying,
216
00:09:50,048 --> 00:09:51,216
"Who's really doing all this?"
217
00:09:51,217 --> 00:09:52,966
And in those days, companies
would write you back
218
00:09:52,967 --> 00:09:54,007
with a personal letter.
219
00:09:54,010 --> 00:09:55,890
And the name that he saw
more than any other
220
00:09:55,891 --> 00:09:57,467
was Bill Finger.
221
00:10:19,327 --> 00:10:22,367
So in 1965, Jerry wrote
a two-page article
222
00:10:22,372 --> 00:10:24,251
which was called
"If the Truth Be Known,".
223
00:10:24,252 --> 00:10:25,666
"A Finger in Every Plot!"
224
00:10:25,667 --> 00:10:27,537
And this was obviously
way before the internet,
225
00:10:27,544 --> 00:10:29,545
so his way of spreading the word
226
00:10:29,546 --> 00:10:31,266
was he made copies of
this and sent it out
227
00:10:31,272 --> 00:10:33,302
to Batman fans all
over the country.
228
00:10:33,303 --> 00:10:36,589
And that's when...
229
00:10:36,594 --> 00:10:38,554
the controversy erupted.
230
00:10:38,555 --> 00:10:41,925
Bill was given a forum
to tell his story
231
00:10:41,933 --> 00:10:43,853
where we could
finally become familiar
232
00:10:43,854 --> 00:10:45,439
with all these
characters and books
233
00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,226
that he wrote over the decades.
234
00:10:47,230 --> 00:10:48,939
It was the first thing
that, in writing,
235
00:10:48,940 --> 00:10:50,819
really gave Bill Finger credit
236
00:10:50,820 --> 00:10:52,567
for the co-creation of Batman,
237
00:10:52,569 --> 00:10:55,487
and it was about time.
238
00:11:00,368 --> 00:11:02,536
That fateful Friday in 1939
239
00:11:02,537 --> 00:11:04,617
when Bob told his editor
240
00:11:04,622 --> 00:11:06,707
that he would be able to
come up with a superhero
241
00:11:06,708 --> 00:11:07,708
over the weekend,
242
00:11:07,709 --> 00:11:09,128
he apparently did
go home that day
243
00:11:09,129 --> 00:11:12,006
and work on a character
which he called "Batman."
244
00:11:12,007 --> 00:11:14,295
Bob's idea for Batman
was a character
245
00:11:14,299 --> 00:11:17,384
in a red union suit,
basically red tights,
246
00:11:17,385 --> 00:11:19,425
a domino mask
which is a little mask
247
00:11:19,429 --> 00:11:21,805
like what Robin wears now,
248
00:11:21,806 --> 00:11:24,474
stiff wings
attached to the arms,
249
00:11:24,475 --> 00:11:27,394
and, as far as we
know, nothing more,
250
00:11:27,395 --> 00:11:30,015
no other
distinguishing elements.
251
00:11:30,023 --> 00:11:31,982
And he had enough sense to know
252
00:11:31,983 --> 00:11:33,942
that this was not good enough,
253
00:11:33,943 --> 00:11:35,363
and he knew who to call.
254
00:11:35,364 --> 00:11:38,655
Bill Finger.
255
00:11:38,656 --> 00:11:40,906
They get together.
256
00:11:40,909 --> 00:11:43,994
They're huddling
over this drawing,
257
00:11:43,995 --> 00:11:46,325
and Bill looked at
the red suit and said,
258
00:11:46,331 --> 00:11:49,669
"This is not suitable for
a creature of the night.
259
00:11:49,670 --> 00:11:51,287
"He's got to be
darker," so he said,
260
00:11:51,294 --> 00:11:53,253
"Let's darken
the whole costume."
261
00:11:53,254 --> 00:11:54,813
He looked at the
little mask and said,
262
00:11:54,814 --> 00:11:56,673
"This is not going to
intimidate criminals."
263
00:11:56,674 --> 00:11:58,680
Let's cover most of
his face with a cowl
264
00:11:58,681 --> 00:11:59,836
and put pointed ears on it,
265
00:11:59,844 --> 00:12:02,560
so that he actually
looks like his namesake.
266
00:12:02,561 --> 00:12:04,805
The stiff wings
are not practical
267
00:12:04,807 --> 00:12:07,186
for obvious reasons,
so let's ditch the wings
268
00:12:07,187 --> 00:12:09,725
and give him a cape
with a scalloped edge
269
00:12:09,729 --> 00:12:11,559
which will fly out behind him
270
00:12:11,564 --> 00:12:14,107
"and look like wings."
271
00:12:14,108 --> 00:12:16,648
You set the tone of
this character's essence
272
00:12:16,653 --> 00:12:18,243
from his visuals
before you know a thing
273
00:12:18,244 --> 00:12:20,488
about his personality
and his mission.
274
00:12:20,490 --> 00:12:22,824
So that was all Bill.
275
00:12:22,825 --> 00:12:24,445
Bill reconstructed Batman
276
00:12:24,452 --> 00:12:27,412
into the Batman that
we all know today.
277
00:12:27,413 --> 00:12:28,793
Bob apparently
went to the company
278
00:12:28,794 --> 00:12:30,580
on Monday morning
with this sketch.
279
00:12:30,583 --> 00:12:32,963
Did not mention that there
was anyone else involved,
280
00:12:32,964 --> 00:12:36,671
and said, "This is my idea."
281
00:12:36,673 --> 00:12:38,970
I have been told, although
I've never been privy,
282
00:12:38,971 --> 00:12:40,547
of course, to the contract,
283
00:12:40,551 --> 00:12:44,888
that that contract included
284
00:12:44,889 --> 00:12:47,015
specifically a stipulation
285
00:12:47,016 --> 00:12:51,596
that Batman would
hereafter be listed
286
00:12:51,604 --> 00:12:54,064
as the sole
creation of Bob Kane.
287
00:12:54,065 --> 00:12:56,275
Bob went back to Bill
and presumably said,
288
00:12:56,276 --> 00:12:57,936
"Great news, they
want to buy Batman,"
289
00:12:57,944 --> 00:13:00,237
so you'll write it
and I'll draw it,
290
00:13:00,238 --> 00:13:01,238
and my name will be on it
291
00:13:01,239 --> 00:13:02,779
because I sold it, of course,
292
00:13:02,782 --> 00:13:04,952
"and I'll give you a portion
of what I get paid."
293
00:13:04,953 --> 00:13:06,579
Nothing was signed,
as far as we know,
294
00:13:06,580 --> 00:13:09,787
but it was something that
they mutually agreed on.
295
00:13:09,789 --> 00:13:12,579
So Bill was not credited
at all from the beginning,
296
00:13:12,583 --> 00:13:14,503
and within a couple of months,
297
00:13:14,504 --> 00:13:16,837
Batman was on the newsstands.
298
00:13:20,550 --> 00:13:23,340
Batman debuted in '39
and, essentially,
299
00:13:23,344 --> 00:13:27,848
it was from 1939 to 1965
where Bill was anonymous.
300
00:13:27,849 --> 00:13:30,726
It's one thing for
Bob Kane in 1939
301
00:13:30,727 --> 00:13:33,097
to take full credit for Batman
302
00:13:33,104 --> 00:13:34,773
when Bill Finger agreed to it,
303
00:13:34,774 --> 00:13:36,522
but where the story
changes dramatically
304
00:13:36,524 --> 00:13:39,114
is in the '60s when
Bill is coaxed out.
305
00:13:39,115 --> 00:13:42,446
At that point, Bob had
a decision to make.
306
00:13:42,447 --> 00:13:43,866
"Am I going to own up to this
307
00:13:43,867 --> 00:13:46,615
or am I going to deny it
from my position of power?"
308
00:13:46,617 --> 00:13:48,787
He had a chance to take,
obviously, the high road
309
00:13:48,788 --> 00:13:49,886
or the low road,
310
00:13:49,887 --> 00:13:53,287
and he took the way low road.
311
00:13:53,291 --> 00:13:56,629
When Jerry's article about
what Bill Finger had done
312
00:13:56,630 --> 00:13:57,836
on Batman came out,
313
00:13:57,837 --> 00:14:00,297
of course it made
Bob Kane go ballistic
314
00:14:00,298 --> 00:14:01,878
the minute that he saw it,
315
00:14:01,883 --> 00:14:04,760
so he went to the
editor of Batmania
316
00:14:04,761 --> 00:14:08,638
and he wrote half a
dozen pages of diatribe.
317
00:14:08,639 --> 00:14:10,639
Obviously, Bob Kane did not want.
318
00:14:10,641 --> 00:14:12,191
Bill Finger's story told
319
00:14:12,192 --> 00:14:15,475
and took tremendous
offense at it.
320
00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,020
"Here, for the first time,"
321
00:14:17,023 --> 00:14:18,732
straight from the horse's mouth,
322
00:14:18,733 --> 00:14:21,862
is the real inside story
about myself and Batman.
323
00:14:21,863 --> 00:14:23,490
It seemed to me that Bill Finger
324
00:14:23,491 --> 00:14:26,198
has given out the impression
that he and not myself
325
00:14:26,199 --> 00:14:28,658
created the 'Batman'
as well as Robin
326
00:14:28,659 --> 00:14:31,289
and all the other leading
villains and characters.
327
00:14:31,290 --> 00:14:34,827
"This statement is fraudulent
and entirely untrue!"
328
00:14:34,832 --> 00:14:36,832
There was one man's
word against the other.
329
00:14:36,834 --> 00:14:38,172
There was no reality show
330
00:14:38,173 --> 00:14:40,754
documenting the birth
of Batman, of course.
331
00:14:40,755 --> 00:14:42,005
It was two guys in an apartment
332
00:14:42,006 --> 00:14:44,006
in the Bronx in 1939
when most people had
333
00:14:44,008 --> 00:14:45,508
much bigger things
to worry about
334
00:14:45,510 --> 00:14:47,590
than who's coming up with
this guy dressed as a bat?
335
00:14:47,591 --> 00:14:49,805
"The truth is that Bill
Finger is taking credit"
336
00:14:49,806 --> 00:14:51,636
for much more than he deserves,
337
00:14:51,641 --> 00:14:54,601
and I refute much of his
statements here in print.
338
00:14:54,602 --> 00:14:57,022
The fact is that I
conceived the 'Batman' figure
339
00:14:57,023 --> 00:14:59,189
and costume entirely by myself.
340
00:14:59,190 --> 00:15:01,110
I created the title, masthead,
341
00:15:01,111 --> 00:15:02,528
the format and concept,
342
00:15:02,529 --> 00:15:05,147
"as well as the Batman
figure and costume."
343
00:15:05,154 --> 00:15:07,494
I don't think that
Bob Kane ever wanted
344
00:15:07,495 --> 00:15:09,074
anything out in writing
345
00:15:09,075 --> 00:15:10,575
that would admit
that anybody else
346
00:15:10,576 --> 00:15:12,576
had a hand in creating
anything for Batman.
347
00:15:12,578 --> 00:15:15,288
His whole myth,
his contract with DC,
348
00:15:15,289 --> 00:15:17,879
his name on the stories
all owed to the fact
349
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,705
that he was the
creator of Batman.
350
00:15:20,711 --> 00:15:22,340
When Bob chose to respond
351
00:15:22,341 --> 00:15:24,878
to Bill's coming out
by writing a letter
352
00:15:24,882 --> 00:15:28,510
denying Bill's
involvement to that degree,
353
00:15:28,511 --> 00:15:30,849
Bob was, in effect,
changing the course
354
00:15:30,850 --> 00:15:32,387
of his life with this letter.
355
00:15:32,390 --> 00:15:34,270
He was saying, "I'm
going to have to stick"
356
00:15:34,271 --> 00:15:36,977
to this story forever."
357
00:15:39,689 --> 00:15:42,899
We're all born with a
natural creative potential.
358
00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:44,940
Every man has it
and every woman.
359
00:15:44,944 --> 00:15:47,821
The idea is to find
out what that is.
360
00:15:47,822 --> 00:15:50,072
And it's like a
little birdie tells you
361
00:15:50,074 --> 00:15:52,914
and whispers in your ear,
it's an intuitive thing.
362
00:15:52,915 --> 00:15:55,370
No one can tell
you that but God.
363
00:15:55,371 --> 00:15:59,374
And I knew I had that
when I was eight or ten
364
00:15:59,375 --> 00:16:01,625
that I wanted to be
a famous cartoonist.
365
00:16:01,627 --> 00:16:04,546
Bob Kane was a kid
from the Bronx,
366
00:16:04,547 --> 00:16:08,297
and he was an artist
with big dreams.
367
00:16:08,301 --> 00:16:10,260
He was a go-getter
and he was working
368
00:16:10,261 --> 00:16:13,099
for the company that
would become DC Comics
369
00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:15,927
which at that point was
called National Periodical.
370
00:16:15,933 --> 00:16:18,443
Bob and Bill met at a party.
371
00:16:20,479 --> 00:16:22,817
They didn't know each
other previous to that
372
00:16:22,818 --> 00:16:25,065
even though they went
to the same high school.
373
00:16:25,067 --> 00:16:28,027
And Bill was a shoe salesman.
374
00:16:28,029 --> 00:16:30,279
He had aspirations
to become a writer.
375
00:16:30,281 --> 00:16:31,781
I said, "Why don't
you try writing"
376
00:16:31,782 --> 00:16:33,282
for the new comic book?"
377
00:16:33,284 --> 00:16:35,581
Bob was already
working in comics,
378
00:16:35,582 --> 00:16:37,958
drawing stories, and Bob
could immediately sense
379
00:16:37,959 --> 00:16:41,495
that Bill was good with
narrative, had good ideas.
380
00:16:41,500 --> 00:16:42,500
It sounds like they were
381
00:16:42,501 --> 00:16:43,810
very different types of people,
382
00:16:43,811 --> 00:16:45,301
but I think what
they had in common
383
00:16:45,302 --> 00:16:49,126
was their love of the
new medium of comics.
384
00:16:51,052 --> 00:16:53,640
In the early days,
really, it was Superman
385
00:16:53,641 --> 00:16:56,638
that brought the comic
book publishing industry
386
00:16:56,641 --> 00:17:01,311
out of this mire of
reprints of comic strips.
387
00:17:01,312 --> 00:17:04,481
It was very much kind of
a fly-by-night industry.
388
00:17:04,482 --> 00:17:05,779
You had a comic publisher
389
00:17:05,780 --> 00:17:08,025
which is maybe a couple
guys at a couple desks
390
00:17:08,027 --> 00:17:10,317
in a couple of rooms
in Midtown somewhere,
391
00:17:10,321 --> 00:17:12,111
and what they largely
did is they farmed out
392
00:17:12,114 --> 00:17:13,823
the actual production
of comic book stories
393
00:17:13,824 --> 00:17:16,034
to what were known as "shops."
394
00:17:16,035 --> 00:17:18,245
You had guys just laying
down the pencil artwork,
395
00:17:18,246 --> 00:17:20,406
you had inkers and finishers
that were then putting
396
00:17:20,414 --> 00:17:22,374
permanent artwork
on top of that.
397
00:17:22,375 --> 00:17:23,665
There were people
doing paste up,
398
00:17:23,668 --> 00:17:25,268
there were people
adding word balloons.
399
00:17:25,269 --> 00:17:27,337
Bob Kane and Bill Finger
400
00:17:27,338 --> 00:17:30,006
were, in effect, a sort of shop.
401
00:17:30,007 --> 00:17:31,047
Bob was the only one
402
00:17:31,050 --> 00:17:32,840
dealing with the
publisher directly.
403
00:17:32,843 --> 00:17:35,887
Kane had his name on
the Batman stories,
404
00:17:35,888 --> 00:17:38,017
but he didn't tell
anybody about Bill Finger,
405
00:17:38,018 --> 00:17:39,425
and, of course, you assumed
406
00:17:39,433 --> 00:17:42,894
that he had done
the whole thing,
407
00:17:42,895 --> 00:17:44,895
and I think that's just
the way Bob wanted it.
408
00:17:44,897 --> 00:17:47,397
From a corporation
point of view,
409
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:48,690
they contract Bob Kane,
410
00:17:48,693 --> 00:17:50,986
Bob Kane is supposed to
deliver pages to them,
411
00:17:50,987 --> 00:17:52,307
and that's all they cared about.
412
00:17:52,313 --> 00:17:54,219
They're going, "I don't
care how you build it,"
413
00:17:54,220 --> 00:17:56,195
right, just, "I need it
built every 30 days"
414
00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,870
because we've got a publishing
deadline coming here."
415
00:17:58,871 --> 00:18:01,079
So in order to meet the demands
416
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,418
of the hungry audience
and feed the machine
417
00:18:03,419 --> 00:18:05,166
and earn money by cranking out
418
00:18:05,167 --> 00:18:07,417
as many different Batman
titles as possible,
419
00:18:07,420 --> 00:18:09,838
they would hire ghost
writers back in the day.
420
00:18:09,839 --> 00:18:11,479
Bob Kane would get
credit for the story.
421
00:18:11,482 --> 00:18:13,132
He'd hand it in,
"Here's my Batman story."
422
00:18:13,134 --> 00:18:14,662
They're like, "Bob,
you're a genius,"
423
00:18:14,663 --> 00:18:16,450
and, you know, that's
how the industry worked
424
00:18:16,451 --> 00:18:17,455
for a long, long time.
425
00:18:17,463 --> 00:18:19,353
Most ghost artists
or ghost writers
426
00:18:19,354 --> 00:18:22,058
were there just to
execute the vision
427
00:18:22,059 --> 00:18:24,809
or the work directive
of the guy hiring them.
428
00:18:24,812 --> 00:18:28,072
They weren't there to sort
of create new concepts.
429
00:18:28,073 --> 00:18:31,895
But because Bill Finger
was there at the beginning,
430
00:18:31,902 --> 00:18:33,902
he wasn't just a ghost writer.
431
00:18:33,904 --> 00:18:37,407
He wasn't just the guy
that was brought on later on
432
00:18:37,408 --> 00:18:40,408
when Batman was already
running and successful
433
00:18:40,411 --> 00:18:43,246
and all the tropes
were in place.
434
00:18:43,247 --> 00:18:46,916
Bill Finger basically
created all those tropes,
435
00:18:46,917 --> 00:18:51,504
but in the actual work hierarchy
436
00:18:51,505 --> 00:18:54,175
as just a ghost writer.
437
00:18:58,137 --> 00:19:01,347
I had never researched
a person to this extent.
438
00:19:01,349 --> 00:19:03,929
I mean, this became
such a quest,
439
00:19:03,934 --> 00:19:05,064
and there just seemed to be
440
00:19:05,065 --> 00:19:07,979
such a higher moral
obligation to this.
441
00:19:07,980 --> 00:19:11,440
You know, this is 700 pages
of information on a subject
442
00:19:11,442 --> 00:19:13,120
that some people told
me at the beginning,
443
00:19:13,121 --> 00:19:15,138
"There's nothing more to
learn about Bill Finger."
444
00:19:15,139 --> 00:19:17,364
I did feel this
calling to do this.
445
00:19:17,365 --> 00:19:18,545
Especially with something as
446
00:19:18,549 --> 00:19:19,949
phenomenally
successful as Batman,
447
00:19:19,950 --> 00:19:23,370
how could this not have
been so well-known?
448
00:19:23,371 --> 00:19:25,959
The first panel of
the first Batman story,
449
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:27,456
just setting up this mysterious,
450
00:19:27,458 --> 00:19:29,288
foreboding character says,
451
00:19:29,293 --> 00:19:31,920
"His identity remains unknown."
452
00:19:31,921 --> 00:19:34,341
Obviously that's Bill
writing about Batman,
453
00:19:34,342 --> 00:19:36,260
but it ended up being a prophesy
454
00:19:36,261 --> 00:19:39,886
because Bill was
Batman's secret identity.
455
00:19:39,887 --> 00:19:42,717
When I started the
research on this project,
456
00:19:42,723 --> 00:19:44,852
there were only two known photos
457
00:19:44,853 --> 00:19:46,269
of Bill in circulation.
458
00:19:46,270 --> 00:19:48,808
It was either him with
a baseball cap in profile
459
00:19:48,813 --> 00:19:53,650
or him golfing, half in
shadow and not that close.
460
00:19:53,651 --> 00:19:56,319
From seven sources
over nine months,
461
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,780
I ended up finding 11
more photos of Bill.
462
00:19:59,782 --> 00:20:02,242
He was interviewed
only a few times,
463
00:20:02,243 --> 00:20:03,952
so for a man of Bill's impact
464
00:20:03,953 --> 00:20:06,541
to have only these few
recorded interviews
465
00:20:06,542 --> 00:20:08,169
in existence is just staggering,
466
00:20:08,170 --> 00:20:12,165
so the first time was
Jerry Bail's in 1965
467
00:20:12,169 --> 00:20:16,339
and then for the 1970
book History of Comics.
468
00:20:16,340 --> 00:20:18,630
And it turns out that in 1972,
469
00:20:18,634 --> 00:20:21,553
a man in California
named Robert Porfirio
470
00:20:21,554 --> 00:20:23,680
interviewed Bill on audio.
471
00:20:23,681 --> 00:20:25,018
It took a while, but eventually
472
00:20:25,019 --> 00:20:27,475
we actually did find
this audio recording...
473
00:20:27,476 --> 00:20:30,056
Testing, one... do you want
to say something, or...?
474
00:20:30,062 --> 00:20:31,229
Yeah, sure.
475
00:20:31,230 --> 00:20:33,020
How are you?
476
00:20:33,023 --> 00:20:37,026
Which was one of the
more emotional moments
477
00:20:37,027 --> 00:20:38,447
I would say, for me,
because it was
478
00:20:38,454 --> 00:20:40,664
the first time that
I heard Bill's voice.
479
00:21:07,057 --> 00:21:08,057
To write this book,
480
00:21:08,058 --> 00:21:10,808
I spoke to more than 250 people.
481
00:21:10,811 --> 00:21:14,606
Of that number,
a handful, maybe a dozen,
482
00:21:14,607 --> 00:21:17,317
knew both Bill
and Bob personally.
483
00:21:17,318 --> 00:21:20,198
Two of the creators
that were hugely helpful
484
00:21:20,199 --> 00:21:23,776
and impactful in this
process were Jerry Robinson,
485
00:21:23,783 --> 00:21:25,953
one of the earliest
Batman ghost artists,
486
00:21:25,954 --> 00:21:27,577
and Carmine Infantino.
487
00:21:27,578 --> 00:21:29,368
He was the artist that redefined.
488
00:21:29,371 --> 00:21:30,871
Batman's look in the '60s,
489
00:21:30,873 --> 00:21:32,793
and Carmine went on
to become the publisher
490
00:21:32,794 --> 00:21:35,877
of DC Comics for
a time in the '70s.
491
00:21:35,878 --> 00:21:38,048
He was genius, literally genius.
492
00:21:38,049 --> 00:21:39,714
I believe that.
493
00:21:39,715 --> 00:21:41,925
I know Bob tried to take
credit for everything.
494
00:21:41,926 --> 00:21:46,304
He should have been credited
as co-creator of Batman.
495
00:21:46,305 --> 00:21:48,675
He said, "I'd like to
get some ownership."
496
00:21:48,682 --> 00:21:50,522
No, he didn't say,
he said, "I'd like to get"
497
00:21:50,523 --> 00:21:53,017
a piece of that
because I did it."
498
00:21:53,020 --> 00:21:56,068
So, but then he said,
"I can't afford a lawyer,
499
00:21:56,069 --> 00:21:58,645
and they know that,"
quote, "They know that."
500
00:21:58,651 --> 00:22:02,737
They told me in, you know,
in no uncertain terms,
501
00:22:02,738 --> 00:22:03,918
that they thought Bill Finger
502
00:22:03,923 --> 00:22:05,782
was deprived of his legacy.
503
00:22:05,783 --> 00:22:08,451
He is the Batman, Bill was.
504
00:22:08,452 --> 00:22:11,040
Everything you would think
that's good, that's Bill.
505
00:22:11,041 --> 00:22:12,788
They take away their humanity
506
00:22:12,790 --> 00:22:14,960
when you take away their credit.
507
00:22:14,961 --> 00:22:16,459
Basically both of them said,
508
00:22:16,460 --> 00:22:18,300
"Without Bill,
there'd be no Batman."
509
00:22:18,301 --> 00:22:20,045
It's that simple.
510
00:22:20,047 --> 00:22:22,797
And that's because
Bill did the following:
511
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,590
Bill Finger was the
dominant creative force
512
00:22:25,594 --> 00:22:28,429
and original writer of Batman,
513
00:22:28,430 --> 00:22:31,975
Robin, the Joker,
Catwoman, the Riddler,
514
00:22:31,976 --> 00:22:34,266
the Penguin, the Scarecrow,
515
00:22:34,270 --> 00:22:36,980
Commissioner Gordon,
Bruce Wayne, and Dick Grayson.
516
00:22:36,981 --> 00:22:38,690
He named Gotham City.
517
00:22:38,691 --> 00:22:40,900
He nicknamed Batman
"The Dark Knight."
518
00:22:40,901 --> 00:22:42,989
He was the first person
to write a story
519
00:22:42,990 --> 00:22:44,567
with the Batmobile
and the Batcave
520
00:22:44,572 --> 00:22:45,989
called those things.
521
00:22:45,990 --> 00:22:47,780
He wrote Batman's origin.
522
00:22:47,783 --> 00:22:50,662
It was just a two-page
story, but it was seismic.
523
00:22:50,663 --> 00:22:53,540
This eight-year-old boy
sees his parents murdered
524
00:22:53,541 --> 00:22:55,119
right before his eyes
and makes a vow
525
00:22:55,124 --> 00:22:58,877
that he will not let this
happen to other people.
526
00:22:58,878 --> 00:23:01,168
I mean, the guy
built this world.
527
00:23:01,171 --> 00:23:04,215
He kept what he called
the "gimmick book."
528
00:23:04,216 --> 00:23:05,816
He would fill that
up with story ideas,
529
00:23:05,818 --> 00:23:07,298
and he would just
sometimes take a bus
530
00:23:07,303 --> 00:23:09,012
around the city to get inspired.
531
00:23:09,013 --> 00:23:11,101
He would just notate
and just be an observer.
532
00:23:11,102 --> 00:23:13,348
He would do extensive
research for scripts.
533
00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:15,520
He would attach
clippings for the artists
534
00:23:15,521 --> 00:23:17,188
so that they would
have reference.
535
00:23:17,189 --> 00:23:18,646
He thought very visually.
536
00:23:18,647 --> 00:23:19,767
He thought cinematically.
537
00:23:19,773 --> 00:23:23,026
He would write these
big, epic scenes.
538
00:23:23,027 --> 00:23:25,397
One of the things that
he's best known for
539
00:23:25,404 --> 00:23:27,870
was writing stories
with oversized props,
540
00:23:27,871 --> 00:23:29,985
so Batman and Robin
fighting on top
541
00:23:29,992 --> 00:23:32,080
of a giant typewriter
with some criminals,
542
00:23:32,081 --> 00:23:33,827
and this stuff was
just wildly fun
543
00:23:33,829 --> 00:23:35,038
and inventive to look at.
544
00:23:35,039 --> 00:23:38,079
He had a hero who
looked like a villain.
545
00:23:38,083 --> 00:23:40,962
He had a superhero who
was also a detective.
546
00:23:40,963 --> 00:23:43,049
He was smart, he wasn't
just using brawn,
547
00:23:43,050 --> 00:23:44,627
he was using brains too.
548
00:23:44,632 --> 00:23:47,052
Bill took all this and
put it in a crucible
549
00:23:47,053 --> 00:23:48,141
and mixed it together
550
00:23:48,142 --> 00:23:51,255
and brought this
deeper sense to stories
551
00:23:51,263 --> 00:23:55,224
that up to that point were
considered somewhat frivolous.
552
00:23:55,225 --> 00:23:57,305
The aspects of
the character, man,
553
00:23:57,311 --> 00:23:59,399
that Bill brought to
it, like the notion
554
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,726
of a little boy in the
city with his parents
555
00:24:01,732 --> 00:24:03,982
who get gunned down,
and at a young age,
556
00:24:03,984 --> 00:24:05,574
that's what he's
going to take with him
557
00:24:05,575 --> 00:24:07,359
for the rest of his life.
558
00:24:07,363 --> 00:24:09,492
And the dude is
just a human being
559
00:24:09,493 --> 00:24:10,618
who's just a guy.
560
00:24:10,619 --> 00:24:12,156
That's it, got no superpowers.
561
00:24:12,159 --> 00:24:13,468
He's got some
pretty nifty things
562
00:24:13,469 --> 00:24:16,159
in his belt and stuff,
but he's relentless.
563
00:24:16,163 --> 00:24:17,832
He's a creature of passion.
564
00:24:17,833 --> 00:24:20,416
It's a character that
kind of keeps you reaching.
565
00:24:20,417 --> 00:24:21,747
It's a character
that people build
566
00:24:21,752 --> 00:24:25,546
their moral compass upon,
or, "That's my guy."
567
00:24:25,547 --> 00:24:28,627
That's what makes
Batman so beautiful.
568
00:24:28,634 --> 00:24:32,095
You don't get there
without Bill Finger, man.
569
00:24:36,558 --> 00:24:38,098
Week after week,
the Caped Crusader
570
00:24:38,102 --> 00:24:41,022
copes with the tricky
traps of vicious villains.
571
00:24:42,815 --> 00:24:44,605
The breakout culturally,
572
00:24:44,608 --> 00:24:47,318
as well as simply
in the ratings books,
573
00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:50,989
was the 1966 Batman
television series.
574
00:24:50,990 --> 00:24:52,200
See the Dynamic Duo
575
00:24:52,201 --> 00:24:54,199
dangle from new
heights of danger.
576
00:24:54,201 --> 00:24:56,160
Careful, Robin,
it's quite a drop.
577
00:24:56,161 --> 00:24:57,870
This was not the
dark and serious
578
00:24:57,871 --> 00:24:59,041
creature of the night
579
00:24:59,042 --> 00:25:01,708
as created by Bob Kane
and Bill Finger.
580
00:25:01,709 --> 00:25:04,839
It caused quite a stir
in what was the beginning
581
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,167
of the pop art phase
of America's culture.
582
00:25:08,173 --> 00:25:10,633
Be with Batman and
Robin twice weekly
583
00:25:10,634 --> 00:25:13,219
in color, of course, on ABC.
584
00:25:17,141 --> 00:25:21,310
Starting with the debut of
the Batman TV show in 1966,
585
00:25:21,311 --> 00:25:24,061
Bill and Bob's
trajectories diverged
586
00:25:24,064 --> 00:25:26,607
even more starkly
than ever before.
587
00:25:26,608 --> 00:25:28,818
You know, Bob was
just going up, up, up,
588
00:25:28,819 --> 00:25:30,948
and Bill was really plummeting.
589
00:25:30,949 --> 00:25:33,865
The TV show changed
Bob's life dramatically
590
00:25:33,866 --> 00:25:36,946
because that's where he got
a big payout for Batman
591
00:25:36,952 --> 00:25:38,828
which made him wealthy.
592
00:25:38,829 --> 00:25:43,749
You stopped drawing the
comic book in the '60s,
593
00:25:43,751 --> 00:25:46,671
and what happened, did
you sell the rights then?
594
00:25:46,672 --> 00:25:49,130
No, it wasn't that,
when I stopped drawing,
595
00:25:49,131 --> 00:25:50,921
I never sold all the rights.
596
00:25:50,924 --> 00:25:53,509
I own a piece of the Batman.
597
00:25:53,510 --> 00:25:55,010
And so you still have...
598
00:25:55,012 --> 00:25:57,182
You still have a
copyright on Batman?
599
00:25:57,183 --> 00:25:59,851
Well, everyone wants to
know that, don't they?
600
00:25:59,852 --> 00:26:02,729
I'll let you figure it...
I'll let you figure it out.
601
00:26:02,730 --> 00:26:05,148
I answered it before,
a piece of it.
602
00:26:05,149 --> 00:26:06,564
A piece of it, okay.
603
00:26:06,565 --> 00:26:08,065
It's a pie.
604
00:26:08,067 --> 00:26:10,397
It's a pie that's cut up.
605
00:26:11,945 --> 00:26:15,565
After the Batman TV show,
Bob was able to parlay that
606
00:26:15,574 --> 00:26:18,201
into some degree of celebrity
607
00:26:18,202 --> 00:26:19,872
without being directly involved.
608
00:26:19,873 --> 00:26:22,205
He was in full-on peacock mode
609
00:26:22,206 --> 00:26:26,876
displaying himself as
Batman's real-life alter ego.
610
00:26:26,877 --> 00:26:28,377
He wanted to be famous, right?
611
00:26:28,378 --> 00:26:31,717
I mean, which was odd
because most creative people
612
00:26:31,718 --> 00:26:33,835
in our industry
just... they did it
613
00:26:33,842 --> 00:26:35,262
for the creative reasons
614
00:26:35,263 --> 00:26:37,804
because they were
just manic artists.
615
00:26:37,805 --> 00:26:39,555
But I got a sense
outta Mr. Kane,
616
00:26:39,556 --> 00:26:43,476
that it was like a plan
and, "Oh, I got to do artwork"
617
00:26:43,477 --> 00:26:45,146
to get the quasi-celebrity,"
618
00:26:45,147 --> 00:26:47,015
which was sort of
reverse engineering
619
00:26:47,022 --> 00:26:48,231
from what most of us do.
620
00:26:48,232 --> 00:26:50,041
We just go, "We do art,
and oh, by the way",
621
00:26:50,042 --> 00:26:52,032
people think we're
famous, oh, cool."
622
00:26:52,033 --> 00:26:55,777
And then I started
painting Batman oils
623
00:26:55,781 --> 00:26:57,828
and I have other non-Batman art,
624
00:26:57,829 --> 00:27:00,325
and I've had shows all over
the world with my art.
625
00:27:00,327 --> 00:27:05,206
So he starts doing a series
of Batman lithographs,
626
00:27:05,207 --> 00:27:08,247
and he's pushing
these lithos as his,
627
00:27:08,252 --> 00:27:11,879
and, again, he's got
another ghost artist
628
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,220
who's, you know, actually
doing these lithographs.
629
00:27:15,221 --> 00:27:17,797
Bob made his careers
630
00:27:17,803 --> 00:27:19,850
by having other
people do the work
631
00:27:19,851 --> 00:27:21,137
and putting his name on it.
632
00:27:21,140 --> 00:27:23,930
That was his...
That was his strategy.
633
00:27:23,934 --> 00:27:25,481
It was Bob Kane's pictures
634
00:27:25,482 --> 00:27:27,307
you saw in magazines
and newspapers.
635
00:27:27,312 --> 00:27:30,898
It was about Bob Kane's
art gallery showings.
636
00:27:30,899 --> 00:27:33,439
Bob became one of the first-ever
637
00:27:33,443 --> 00:27:35,113
comic book celebrities.
638
00:27:36,655 --> 00:27:40,324
The Batman TV show did
almost nothing for Bill.
639
00:27:40,325 --> 00:27:41,575
The significance of it was
640
00:27:41,577 --> 00:27:43,536
that Bill was the
only writer from comics
641
00:27:43,537 --> 00:27:45,617
who wrote an episode
of the TV show.
642
00:27:45,622 --> 00:27:47,372
Actually, the Batman
show that he co-wrote
643
00:27:47,374 --> 00:27:49,333
with his friend
named Charles Sinclair
644
00:27:49,334 --> 00:27:53,296
was his only
published Batman credit.
645
00:27:53,297 --> 00:27:56,377
We did a Batman TV thing,
646
00:27:56,383 --> 00:27:59,760
and "The Clock King's
Crazy Crimes,"
647
00:27:59,761 --> 00:28:01,137
thank you very much.
648
00:28:01,138 --> 00:28:04,428
And Bill thought of
all kinds of gimmicks
649
00:28:04,433 --> 00:28:07,560
for clocks and time.
650
00:28:07,561 --> 00:28:09,645
When we got confirmation
651
00:28:09,646 --> 00:28:12,976
that we had sold to Batman,
652
00:28:12,983 --> 00:28:16,569
Bill was kind of digging
his toe in the sand
653
00:28:16,570 --> 00:28:18,154
and hemming and hawing,
654
00:28:18,155 --> 00:28:20,275
and I knew he had
something on his mind.
655
00:28:20,282 --> 00:28:21,692
Finally, I said, "Come on, Bill",
656
00:28:21,693 --> 00:28:22,860
what the hell's on your mind?
657
00:28:22,861 --> 00:28:24,368
There's something eating you.
658
00:28:24,369 --> 00:28:27,204
"What is it and how
can I help you?"
659
00:28:27,205 --> 00:28:31,955
Well, it was the
billing on the show.
660
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:37,380
Bill said, "Could I just
this once get top billing?"
661
00:28:37,382 --> 00:28:41,344
I said, "Sure, why not?"
662
00:28:41,345 --> 00:28:45,014
Bill Finger,
at that point in time,
663
00:28:45,015 --> 00:28:48,725
had a little
black-and-white TV set.
664
00:28:48,727 --> 00:28:51,607
I said, "Bill, you've
got to see this thing"
665
00:28:51,608 --> 00:28:53,725
"in color," you know.
666
00:28:53,732 --> 00:28:55,858
So I called a friend at ABC,
667
00:28:55,859 --> 00:29:02,569
and we went and sat in
a client viewing room...
668
00:29:02,574 --> 00:29:04,992
and saw this Batman thing,
669
00:29:04,993 --> 00:29:09,538
Bill and I, on a big color set.
670
00:29:09,539 --> 00:29:12,289
Bill was
thunderstruck, you know?
671
00:29:12,292 --> 00:29:16,045
I don't know if he
actually had any tears
672
00:29:16,046 --> 00:29:17,376
running down his
cheeks, you know,
673
00:29:17,381 --> 00:29:20,381
but I think he
came pretty close.
674
00:29:20,384 --> 00:29:24,470
Bang, he saw his name,
you know, top billing
675
00:29:24,471 --> 00:29:27,139
in color on a big TV screen.
676
00:29:27,140 --> 00:29:29,310
I mean, this was
like the high point
677
00:29:29,311 --> 00:29:31,519
of his creative life.
678
00:29:36,900 --> 00:29:39,527
Most of the Golden Age writers
679
00:29:39,528 --> 00:29:41,445
began to be phased out
680
00:29:41,446 --> 00:29:44,276
by the middle and
latter '60s at DC.
681
00:29:44,282 --> 00:29:46,826
A new era of talent
were coming in,
682
00:29:46,827 --> 00:29:48,117
fans who were becoming
683
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,079
the new writers of comic books,
684
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,000
the new artists of comic books,
685
00:29:52,001 --> 00:29:55,084
and people from the
original generation
686
00:29:55,085 --> 00:29:57,165
were finding it
harder and harder
687
00:29:57,170 --> 00:29:59,088
and harder to adapt.
688
00:29:59,089 --> 00:30:01,259
The company was saying,
"Just because they may have"
689
00:30:01,260 --> 00:30:03,968
co-created or written these
characters back in the '40s,
690
00:30:03,969 --> 00:30:05,428
"we need young, fresh blood."
691
00:30:05,429 --> 00:30:07,759
Who cares if Bill
Finger writes Batman?
692
00:30:07,764 --> 00:30:10,102
There seemed to be
a lack of respect
693
00:30:10,103 --> 00:30:11,434
for his body of work.
694
00:30:11,435 --> 00:30:13,435
I mean, that's how some
people would interpret it.
695
00:30:13,437 --> 00:30:15,367
This was not just a guy
who created a character
696
00:30:15,372 --> 00:30:16,691
that we've used a few times.
697
00:30:16,692 --> 00:30:18,480
This is a guy who
created an entire world
698
00:30:18,483 --> 00:30:21,318
that we are milking to the bone.
699
00:30:21,319 --> 00:30:24,069
So I can't even
imagine what he felt.
700
00:30:24,072 --> 00:30:25,822
He spent the rest
of the '60s writing,
701
00:30:25,824 --> 00:30:28,951
but not Batman, not even comics.
702
00:30:28,952 --> 00:30:31,120
He wrote carpentry articles,
703
00:30:31,121 --> 00:30:34,290
he ended up writing for
the Army Pictorial Center.
704
00:30:34,291 --> 00:30:36,751
So he was always
struggling for money.
705
00:30:36,752 --> 00:30:38,169
He was under strain,
706
00:30:38,170 --> 00:30:42,130
I think he was
skimping on medications.
707
00:30:42,132 --> 00:30:45,634
I don't think
he was eating well,
708
00:30:45,635 --> 00:30:46,675
and he was sliding,
709
00:30:46,678 --> 00:30:48,758
and I couldn't do
too much about it.
710
00:30:48,764 --> 00:30:51,891
He was just getting by
and slogging through
711
00:30:51,892 --> 00:30:54,101
and watching his
character get bigger
712
00:30:54,102 --> 00:30:57,021
than ever before and
being more detached from it
713
00:30:57,022 --> 00:30:58,152
than ever before.
714
00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:01,820
My very first comic convention
715
00:31:01,821 --> 00:31:05,154
was the 1973 New York City
716
00:31:05,155 --> 00:31:08,695
July 4th Com Convention
at the Commodore Hotel,
717
00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:10,990
and the keynote speaker
of that convention
718
00:31:10,994 --> 00:31:13,704
was Bob Kane, and
I was a Batman fan!
719
00:31:13,705 --> 00:31:16,035
And I remember
standing in the back
720
00:31:16,041 --> 00:31:18,501
of this packed ballroom
721
00:31:18,502 --> 00:31:20,211
where Bob Kane
was a little speck
722
00:31:20,212 --> 00:31:22,171
in the distance on the stage.
723
00:31:22,172 --> 00:31:24,672
But what do I remember hearing?
724
00:31:24,674 --> 00:31:26,721
"I created Batman,
I created Robin,
725
00:31:26,722 --> 00:31:28,718
I created the Joker,
I created the... ".
726
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,848
"I, I, I, I, I..."
that's what I remember.
727
00:31:32,849 --> 00:31:35,978
And the thing is is that
we didn't know at the time,
728
00:31:35,979 --> 00:31:37,897
but Bill Finger was still alive
729
00:31:37,898 --> 00:31:41,356
in the summer of '73,
probably on his last legs.
730
00:31:41,358 --> 00:31:44,568
So what really upsets
me about Bob Kane
731
00:31:44,569 --> 00:31:47,569
is that right up until
the time Bill Finger died,
732
00:31:47,572 --> 00:31:50,699
his friend and partner
who co-created Batman,
733
00:31:50,700 --> 00:31:53,744
that gave Bob Kane a
living and notoriety
734
00:31:53,745 --> 00:31:55,035
for the rest of his life,
735
00:31:55,038 --> 00:31:59,875
he allowed to die
penniless and unknown.
736
00:31:59,876 --> 00:32:01,626
And for that, there
is no forgiveness
737
00:32:01,628 --> 00:32:04,255
for Bob Kane.
738
00:32:04,256 --> 00:32:07,126
In the early '70s,
Bill did begin to write
739
00:32:07,134 --> 00:32:08,721
for comics again and for DC.
740
00:32:08,722 --> 00:32:10,468
He began to
write mystery stories,
741
00:32:10,470 --> 00:32:13,220
and he had two
stories due on a Friday,
742
00:32:13,223 --> 00:32:15,603
he turned in only
one and went home,
743
00:32:15,604 --> 00:32:18,560
presumably to finish
the second one.
744
00:32:18,562 --> 00:32:22,231
This was January 18th, 1974.
745
00:32:22,232 --> 00:32:24,402
He was living alone in Manhattan
746
00:32:24,403 --> 00:32:25,611
in a small apartment
747
00:32:25,612 --> 00:32:27,740
in the same building as Charles.
748
00:32:29,489 --> 00:32:32,079
On this particular day,
I had not heard from Bill
749
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,905
for like a couple of days,
750
00:32:34,911 --> 00:32:38,747
and I'm carrying a duplicate key
751
00:32:38,748 --> 00:32:41,667
for his apartment.
752
00:32:41,668 --> 00:32:44,208
I went to the apartment,
753
00:32:44,212 --> 00:32:46,212
and he was behind in his rent.
754
00:32:46,214 --> 00:32:50,593
The landlord had eviction
notices on his door.
755
00:32:50,594 --> 00:32:53,012
I used my key and went in.
756
00:32:55,140 --> 00:32:58,267
I walked up to him.
757
00:32:58,268 --> 00:33:02,478
He had a blanket like
pulled up to about here.
758
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,107
I pulled it down.
759
00:33:05,108 --> 00:33:07,985
Looked, looked,
and looked, you know.
760
00:33:07,986 --> 00:33:10,446
No movement, nothing, you know?
761
00:33:10,447 --> 00:33:14,617
And I reached down,
shook his shoulder.
762
00:33:14,618 --> 00:33:17,328
Nothing.
763
00:33:17,329 --> 00:33:20,915
Poor Bill had died alone
764
00:33:20,916 --> 00:33:24,206
with his little
television set going on.
765
00:33:24,211 --> 00:33:26,131
I thought, you know, what a...
766
00:33:26,132 --> 00:33:30,174
Kind of a sad little end.
767
00:33:34,346 --> 00:33:37,886
The world has lost a
very interesting guy.
768
00:33:42,103 --> 00:33:43,979
So when I asked Charles.
769
00:33:43,980 --> 00:33:46,150
"What happened to
Bill after he died?"
770
00:33:46,151 --> 00:33:48,399
Charles said,
"Marc, I don't think
771
00:33:48,401 --> 00:33:51,361
we want to talk about that."
772
00:33:51,363 --> 00:33:54,198
And I said, "You're
probably right."
773
00:33:54,199 --> 00:33:57,239
I know it's difficult,
but I do have to ask."
774
00:33:57,244 --> 00:33:58,764
And then Charles
said that he thought
775
00:33:58,765 --> 00:34:02,872
that Bill was buried
in a potter's field.
776
00:34:02,874 --> 00:34:06,502
It's a graveyard
of unmarked graves.
777
00:34:06,503 --> 00:34:07,733
People that don't have someone
778
00:34:07,734 --> 00:34:09,338
to take care of them.
779
00:34:09,339 --> 00:34:12,179
Homeless people... I
mean, it's desperately,
780
00:34:12,180 --> 00:34:14,835
desperately sad.
781
00:34:14,844 --> 00:34:17,388
The medical
examiner report says,
782
00:34:17,389 --> 00:34:21,389
"natural causes,
no family, no history,"
783
00:34:21,393 --> 00:34:22,773
which of course was referring
784
00:34:22,774 --> 00:34:25,019
to his medical history,
785
00:34:25,021 --> 00:34:28,107
but when you read
that now, textually,
786
00:34:28,108 --> 00:34:30,688
it's eerie because
this medical examiner
787
00:34:30,694 --> 00:34:34,613
had no idea the immensely
significant history
788
00:34:34,614 --> 00:34:37,157
that this man had.
789
00:34:37,158 --> 00:34:39,576
So when I heard
that, I just thought,
790
00:34:39,577 --> 00:34:40,886
you know, just on a human level
791
00:34:40,887 --> 00:34:43,416
we've got to do
something for this guy.
792
00:34:43,417 --> 00:34:45,624
There are so many
fans who clamber
793
00:34:45,625 --> 00:34:47,535
for justice for the creators.
794
00:34:47,544 --> 00:34:48,854
I think in the end it takes more
795
00:34:48,855 --> 00:34:50,843
than this amorphous
mass of fans.
796
00:34:50,844 --> 00:34:53,549
There has to be one
person who steps up
797
00:34:53,550 --> 00:34:55,340
and leads the charge.
798
00:34:57,304 --> 00:34:58,973
When I started this project,
799
00:34:58,974 --> 00:35:00,681
I was already a
published author.
800
00:35:00,682 --> 00:35:02,979
I wanted to tell
another good story.
801
00:35:02,980 --> 00:35:04,386
And then when I learned
802
00:35:04,394 --> 00:35:06,904
how much there was to
reveal about Bill's life
803
00:35:06,905 --> 00:35:10,566
and how much more we
could do on his behalf,
804
00:35:10,567 --> 00:35:14,567
it became not only
a book but a crusade.
805
00:35:14,571 --> 00:35:17,740
My goal became getting
Bill's name on Batman,
806
00:35:17,741 --> 00:35:20,871
to get this man the credit
that will never go away,
807
00:35:20,872 --> 00:35:23,579
that will hang over all of this.
808
00:35:23,580 --> 00:35:25,208
I had a couple
of people that said,
809
00:35:25,209 --> 00:35:27,706
"What you are trying
to do will never happen."
810
00:35:27,709 --> 00:35:29,749
This is a contractually
bound line
811
00:35:29,753 --> 00:35:32,713
that's been in
place for 70 years,
812
00:35:32,714 --> 00:35:34,761
so what are you
going to do about it?
813
00:35:34,762 --> 00:35:36,798
"What is any one person
going to do about it?"
814
00:35:36,801 --> 00:35:39,141
And I said to myself,
"I have no idea,
815
00:35:39,142 --> 00:35:41,427
but I'm going to try."
816
00:35:49,606 --> 00:35:52,726
Here it is, Poe Park.
817
00:35:53,943 --> 00:35:55,822
So this is Poe
Park in the Bronx.
818
00:35:55,823 --> 00:35:57,949
This is where Bill
and Bob would come
819
00:35:57,950 --> 00:35:59,527
and brainstorm
ideas for stories.
820
00:35:59,532 --> 00:36:01,412
They would sit on
park benches here
821
00:36:01,413 --> 00:36:02,868
and discuss Batman.
822
00:36:02,869 --> 00:36:04,498
I had no idea that
I would be doing
823
00:36:04,499 --> 00:36:05,786
this kind of digging.
824
00:36:05,789 --> 00:36:08,169
This is the apartment
in which Bill was living
825
00:36:08,170 --> 00:36:11,496
in 1965 when he was
interviewed by Jerry Bails.
826
00:36:11,503 --> 00:36:14,633
He's also very righteous,
and he wants to, you know,
827
00:36:14,634 --> 00:36:17,424
he wants to do
right in the world,
828
00:36:17,425 --> 00:36:18,755
and so he is driven.
829
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,139
Bill Finger was the
co-creator of Batman.
830
00:36:21,140 --> 00:36:23,764
And I am pretty sure
that he was living here
831
00:36:23,765 --> 00:36:25,275
at the moment that
he created Batman,
832
00:36:25,283 --> 00:36:27,893
so I think he was living
in one of these three units,
833
00:36:27,894 --> 00:36:28,981
and I'd love to see inside
834
00:36:28,982 --> 00:36:30,147
if you could show it.
835
00:36:30,148 --> 00:36:31,686
The parallel was not lost on me
836
00:36:31,690 --> 00:36:33,899
that Bill made
Batman a detective,
837
00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:36,488
and I was a detective in
pursuit of Bill's legacy.
838
00:36:36,489 --> 00:36:38,195
That was part of the fun of it.
839
00:36:38,196 --> 00:36:39,816
How did you find this out?
840
00:36:39,823 --> 00:36:41,073
I did a lot of research.
841
00:36:41,074 --> 00:36:43,994
I actually went through
the New York City phone book
842
00:36:43,995 --> 00:36:48,706
every year from 1930 to
1974 looking for my guy,
843
00:36:48,707 --> 00:36:50,577
and this is where it started.
844
00:36:50,583 --> 00:36:51,959
It became addictive.
845
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,919
I felt like, if I
found this big thing
846
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,550
that wasn't known,
there's probably more.
847
00:36:59,634 --> 00:37:02,472
When I started the research,
we knew this much:
848
00:37:02,473 --> 00:37:04,308
Bill's wife was named Portia,
849
00:37:04,309 --> 00:37:07,015
they were married
sometime in the 1940s.
850
00:37:07,016 --> 00:37:08,686
I believe that their
marriage fell apart
851
00:37:08,687 --> 00:37:10,475
in the '50s.
852
00:37:10,478 --> 00:37:13,688
To try to legally
contest a credit line,
853
00:37:13,690 --> 00:37:14,980
you need an heir.
854
00:37:14,983 --> 00:37:17,526
That was my goal
was to find an heir,
855
00:37:17,527 --> 00:37:19,737
so very early in my
Bill Finger research,
856
00:37:19,738 --> 00:37:22,158
I learned that Bill
had a son named Fred.
857
00:37:22,159 --> 00:37:24,697
I was super pumped that
day because I thought
858
00:37:24,701 --> 00:37:27,081
it's going to take
me less than a day
859
00:37:27,082 --> 00:37:28,618
to find Fred Finger,
860
00:37:28,621 --> 00:37:29,871
and it took me less than a day
861
00:37:29,873 --> 00:37:32,583
to find out that Fred
was Bill's only child,
862
00:37:32,584 --> 00:37:36,628
Fred was gay, and
Fred died in 1992,
863
00:37:36,629 --> 00:37:39,757
which to me implied
that he was the end
864
00:37:39,758 --> 00:37:41,128
of the Finger family,
865
00:37:41,134 --> 00:37:42,640
that there was nobody left.
866
00:37:42,641 --> 00:37:45,255
And while I'm writing a
book to tell a good story
867
00:37:45,263 --> 00:37:46,932
and tell an important story,
868
00:37:46,933 --> 00:37:49,771
at the same time my goal
was to do what I could
869
00:37:49,772 --> 00:37:52,394
to see Bill's name
added to Batman,
870
00:37:52,395 --> 00:37:56,315
but I knew that to do that,
you need to be an heir
871
00:37:56,316 --> 00:37:57,646
and there wasn't one.
872
00:37:57,650 --> 00:38:00,070
So I was then going
to look for anybody
873
00:38:00,071 --> 00:38:03,489
who might have had some
connection to this man.
874
00:38:03,490 --> 00:38:05,490
Apparently when you are
doing detective work,
875
00:38:05,492 --> 00:38:06,829
you find yourself doing things
876
00:38:06,830 --> 00:38:08,576
that you wouldn't
expect yourself to do.
877
00:38:08,578 --> 00:38:10,868
For example, I
called every Finger
878
00:38:10,872 --> 00:38:12,922
in the phone directory,
which was 500 names
879
00:38:12,923 --> 00:38:16,376
asking if they were
related to Bill Finger.
880
00:38:16,377 --> 00:38:18,086
Not a one was.
881
00:38:18,087 --> 00:38:20,837
I staked out the apartment
building that Portia,
882
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,130
Bill's first wife, lived
in at the end of her life.
883
00:38:23,134 --> 00:38:24,654
I figured there
could still be people
884
00:38:24,655 --> 00:38:26,261
in the building who knew her.
885
00:38:26,262 --> 00:38:28,092
Next thing I know, I'm
sitting in an apartment
886
00:38:28,093 --> 00:38:30,018
with two lovely
women in their 70s
887
00:38:30,019 --> 00:38:32,436
who are in their nightgowns
at 6 o'clock at night
888
00:38:32,437 --> 00:38:35,225
telling me stories about Portia.
889
00:38:35,230 --> 00:38:36,939
When I didn't know
how to reach people
890
00:38:36,940 --> 00:38:39,940
that knew Fred, I posted fliers
891
00:38:39,943 --> 00:38:41,151
in community centers
892
00:38:41,152 --> 00:38:42,711
targeting the gay
and lesbian community
893
00:38:42,712 --> 00:38:44,862
saying, "Does anybody
remember Fred Finger?"
894
00:38:44,864 --> 00:38:45,864
It was actually a flier
895
00:38:45,865 --> 00:38:47,205
with the little pull-off things,
896
00:38:47,208 --> 00:38:49,698
you know, "I know Fred Finger"
897
00:38:49,702 --> 00:38:51,829
with my phone number.
898
00:38:51,830 --> 00:38:52,960
Yeah, it's crazy.
899
00:38:52,961 --> 00:38:55,746
Bill Finger was a charming guy,
900
00:38:55,750 --> 00:38:59,419
but he was not, I
think, a forceful guy.
901
00:38:59,420 --> 00:39:01,170
He was making his own way,
902
00:39:01,172 --> 00:39:03,966
and it was kind of permanently
903
00:39:03,967 --> 00:39:06,967
on the outside looking in a bit.
904
00:39:06,970 --> 00:39:09,304
At some point, Charles said
905
00:39:09,305 --> 00:39:10,764
that Bill and Portia divorced
906
00:39:10,765 --> 00:39:12,074
and Bill was
dating other people,
907
00:39:12,075 --> 00:39:14,345
and in the late '60s,
he had a lady friend
908
00:39:14,352 --> 00:39:16,645
named Edith Simmons.
909
00:39:16,646 --> 00:39:19,266
That was what Charles
said, "a lady friend."
910
00:39:19,274 --> 00:39:20,320
I discovered that Edith
911
00:39:20,321 --> 00:39:22,646
was more than just
Bill's lady friend,
912
00:39:22,652 --> 00:39:24,278
she was his second wife.
913
00:39:24,279 --> 00:39:27,819
Someone that nobody in
comics had ever heard of.
914
00:39:27,824 --> 00:39:33,036
He was a very amiable, pleasant,
915
00:39:33,037 --> 00:39:36,537
and easy-going man.
916
00:39:36,541 --> 00:39:39,877
He had a good sense of humor,
917
00:39:39,878 --> 00:39:41,798
he... do you want me to tell you
918
00:39:41,799 --> 00:39:44,546
about the things he
was interested in?
919
00:39:44,549 --> 00:39:47,217
She was, along with Charles,
920
00:39:47,218 --> 00:39:49,638
the two biggest finds
up until that point...
921
00:39:49,639 --> 00:39:51,307
The two people that I thought
922
00:39:51,308 --> 00:39:52,846
would ensure that this was
923
00:39:52,849 --> 00:39:54,477
the first real
version of Bill Finger
924
00:39:54,478 --> 00:39:56,185
that we would get to know.
925
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,690
He was interested
in a lot of things.
926
00:40:02,692 --> 00:40:05,861
He loved ballet, for
instance, I loved it.
927
00:40:05,862 --> 00:40:07,946
We went together.
928
00:40:07,947 --> 00:40:11,277
He was very knowledgeable
about theater,
929
00:40:11,284 --> 00:40:13,201
about movies.
930
00:40:13,202 --> 00:40:15,245
He was proud of being a very,
931
00:40:15,246 --> 00:40:18,076
very good comic book writer.
932
00:40:18,082 --> 00:40:20,208
There are several heroes,
933
00:40:20,209 --> 00:40:22,129
in my opinion, in this story.
934
00:40:22,130 --> 00:40:24,378
When Lyn, his second wife,
935
00:40:24,380 --> 00:40:25,880
learned that they were making
936
00:40:25,882 --> 00:40:27,179
a big budget Batman movie,
937
00:40:27,180 --> 00:40:30,425
which would become Tim
Burton's 1989 Batman movie,
938
00:40:30,428 --> 00:40:34,056
she tried to get Bill
credit in that movie.
939
00:40:34,057 --> 00:40:35,927
This time it is
to the big screen.
940
00:40:35,934 --> 00:40:37,853
Warner Brothers
is spending millions
941
00:40:37,854 --> 00:40:39,272
to bring millionaire Bruce Wayne
942
00:40:39,273 --> 00:40:41,270
and his alter ego to life.
943
00:40:41,272 --> 00:40:42,942
Is this a gamble for the studio?
944
00:40:42,943 --> 00:40:44,278
Will Batman pay off?
945
00:40:44,279 --> 00:40:45,775
Will there be bat hysteria?
946
00:40:45,777 --> 00:40:48,397
When the first Batman
movie was coming out,
947
00:40:48,404 --> 00:40:51,198
my mother got very concerned
948
00:40:51,199 --> 00:40:54,368
that Bill was getting
no credit for it.
949
00:40:54,369 --> 00:40:56,369
Estimates are that
the final price tag
950
00:40:56,371 --> 00:40:57,831
for the Warner Brothers movie
951
00:40:57,832 --> 00:41:01,124
will be in the 30 to
50 million dollar range.
952
00:41:01,125 --> 00:41:03,745
I thought he should
get some credit
953
00:41:03,753 --> 00:41:05,921
on the screen,
954
00:41:05,922 --> 00:41:10,759
and I tried to get in
touch with the managers
955
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,845
or whoever it was to tell them
956
00:41:13,846 --> 00:41:16,426
that Bill should get credit.
957
00:41:16,432 --> 00:41:17,932
We weren't interested in suing,
958
00:41:17,934 --> 00:41:20,024
because we weren't
seeking money,
959
00:41:20,025 --> 00:41:23,188
we were just seeking
credit for Bill.
960
00:41:23,189 --> 00:41:24,789
I really dealt with
the legal department
961
00:41:24,791 --> 00:41:26,066
a couple of times.
962
00:41:26,067 --> 00:41:27,317
They weren't disagreeing
963
00:41:27,318 --> 00:41:29,277
with Bill's co-creating Batman,
964
00:41:29,278 --> 00:41:31,318
there was no disagreement there.
965
00:41:31,322 --> 00:41:32,872
They just didn't
want to get involved
966
00:41:32,873 --> 00:41:35,575
in something they
didn't have to do
967
00:41:35,576 --> 00:41:39,826
that might open up some
liability issues for them.
968
00:41:39,831 --> 00:41:43,250
They, I would say,
politely declined.
969
00:41:43,251 --> 00:41:45,548
That long-awaited
41 million dollar film,
970
00:41:45,549 --> 00:41:48,455
Batman, got an old-fashioned
kickoff last night
971
00:41:48,464 --> 00:41:50,134
when it premiered
in Los Angeles.
972
00:41:50,135 --> 00:41:52,639
Thousands of fans, many
of whom waited all day
973
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,594
outside the theater in Westwood,
974
00:41:54,595 --> 00:41:56,095
welcomed the scores of stars
975
00:41:56,097 --> 00:41:57,677
who turned out for the opening.
976
00:41:57,682 --> 00:42:00,482
So of course the Batman
movie was a juggernaut.
977
00:42:00,483 --> 00:42:02,346
Batman owned 1989.
978
00:42:02,353 --> 00:42:04,563
Are all those
people waiting now?
979
00:42:04,564 --> 00:42:05,647
You're kidding!
980
00:42:05,648 --> 00:42:08,525
It's Batmania this summer.
981
00:42:08,526 --> 00:42:10,235
Everyone wants
to see this movie.
982
00:42:10,236 --> 00:42:13,106
That movie was stratospheric.
983
00:42:13,114 --> 00:42:14,324
I've been reading comic books
984
00:42:14,325 --> 00:42:15,657
since I was six years old.
985
00:42:15,658 --> 00:42:17,528
They couldn't have done
this movie any better.
986
00:42:17,529 --> 00:42:19,366
Day by day, there are
more and more signals
987
00:42:19,370 --> 00:42:21,040
that a phenomenon is emerging.
988
00:42:21,041 --> 00:42:23,749
There is even a
1-800-BATMAN number
989
00:42:23,750 --> 00:42:26,500
in here to get your
merchandise to you faster.
990
00:42:26,502 --> 00:42:28,712
1989 is when Batman moved
991
00:42:28,713 --> 00:42:30,672
from just another superhero
992
00:42:30,673 --> 00:42:34,426
to a fictional character
that everybody knows.
993
00:42:34,427 --> 00:42:37,177
At our first Batman
premiere in 1989,
994
00:42:37,180 --> 00:42:40,640
Bob showed up in like
this black velour bat cape.
995
00:42:40,641 --> 00:42:42,851
Bob was fun, and
Bob was a showman.
996
00:42:42,852 --> 00:42:46,362
He loved the attention, he
reveled in the attention.
997
00:42:48,983 --> 00:42:51,653
My autobiography
came out, Batman & Me.
998
00:42:51,654 --> 00:42:53,912
At the height of the
movie of Batman One,
999
00:42:53,913 --> 00:42:56,615
it sold 250,000 copies.
1000
00:42:56,616 --> 00:42:58,075
That's the cover of me.
1001
00:42:58,076 --> 00:43:01,536
That's the first
Batman I drew in 1939.
1002
00:43:04,540 --> 00:43:06,958
Doing the book was interesting.
1003
00:43:06,959 --> 00:43:08,249
I helped design the book
1004
00:43:08,252 --> 00:43:10,796
and rewrote a lot of the book
1005
00:43:10,797 --> 00:43:12,917
based on a lot of
interviewing I did with him.
1006
00:43:12,924 --> 00:43:15,054
I interviewed him for hours.
1007
00:43:23,476 --> 00:43:26,556
For me, the most significant
passage is on page 44,
1008
00:43:26,562 --> 00:43:29,110
when Bob writes, "Now
that my longtime friend"
1009
00:43:29,111 --> 00:43:30,727
and collaborator is gone,
1010
00:43:30,733 --> 00:43:32,530
I must admit that
Bill never received
1011
00:43:32,531 --> 00:43:34,986
the fame and
recognition he deserved.
1012
00:43:34,987 --> 00:43:36,737
"He was an unsung hero."
1013
00:43:43,871 --> 00:43:45,330
"I often tell my wife,"
1014
00:43:45,331 --> 00:43:48,667
if I could go back
15 years before he died,
1015
00:43:48,668 --> 00:43:50,458
I would like to say, quote,
1016
00:43:50,461 --> 00:43:51,920
'I'll put your name on it now.
1017
00:43:51,921 --> 00:43:53,461
"You deserve it.'"
1018
00:43:53,464 --> 00:43:54,883
I remember when I read that,
1019
00:43:54,884 --> 00:43:56,261
and several other people told me
1020
00:43:56,262 --> 00:43:57,509
they had similar reactions.
1021
00:43:57,510 --> 00:43:58,900
They were just
dumbstruck, I mean,
1022
00:43:58,903 --> 00:44:00,643
it was just like...
It's one of those things
1023
00:44:00,644 --> 00:44:02,408
that'll just stop you
when you're reading it
1024
00:44:02,414 --> 00:44:04,184
if you know anything
about the situation
1025
00:44:04,185 --> 00:44:07,519
because you are looking
at a book written...
1026
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,605
Allegedly written...
By the person
1027
00:44:10,606 --> 00:44:12,566
who is totally responsible,
1028
00:44:12,567 --> 00:44:14,107
or almost totally responsible,
1029
00:44:14,110 --> 00:44:16,110
for the fact that
poor Bill Finger
1030
00:44:16,112 --> 00:44:18,612
never got the credit
he deserved for Batman.
1031
00:44:29,125 --> 00:44:32,125
He did have regrets at the end
1032
00:44:32,128 --> 00:44:34,708
about Bill not getting credit.
1033
00:44:37,300 --> 00:44:40,427
Never sufficient
regret to fix it.
1034
00:44:40,428 --> 00:44:43,258
I don't think he would've
ever put Bill's name
1035
00:44:43,264 --> 00:44:46,474
on the strip at that time.
1036
00:44:46,475 --> 00:44:50,435
It opens a legal can of worms
1037
00:44:50,438 --> 00:44:51,768
when he told me that,
1038
00:44:51,772 --> 00:44:53,481
which he wouldn't
have wanted to get into,
1039
00:44:53,482 --> 00:44:54,612
because then it wouldn't...
1040
00:44:54,613 --> 00:44:57,989
It would be not
only credit but money.
1041
00:44:59,697 --> 00:45:01,656
The other especially
notable thing
1042
00:45:01,657 --> 00:45:05,994
about Bob's book is
this series of sketches,
1043
00:45:05,995 --> 00:45:09,705
which are dated
January 17th, 1934.
1044
00:45:20,635 --> 00:45:22,965
- Yeah.
- He has these drawings
1045
00:45:22,970 --> 00:45:25,930
that he says were
stashed away as a kid
1046
00:45:25,932 --> 00:45:27,352
and wasn't sure
whether to make it
1047
00:45:27,353 --> 00:45:29,184
into a bird or a bat,
1048
00:45:29,185 --> 00:45:31,845
and he said that
when he was creating
1049
00:45:31,854 --> 00:45:35,023
this new superhero, he
remembered these drawings
1050
00:45:35,024 --> 00:45:37,984
he had made in 1934
in this trunk,
1051
00:45:37,985 --> 00:45:39,105
and he went to get them
1052
00:45:39,111 --> 00:45:40,401
and this gave him
the inspiration
1053
00:45:40,404 --> 00:45:43,744
for making a
character into a bat.
1054
00:45:55,503 --> 00:45:56,670
Wow.
1055
00:45:56,671 --> 00:45:58,711
I don't think that's
ever been corroborated
1056
00:45:58,714 --> 00:46:01,011
that that's an
actual 1934 document.
1057
00:46:01,012 --> 00:46:02,508
I mean, somebody should do
1058
00:46:02,510 --> 00:46:04,550
a Shroud of Turin investigation
1059
00:46:04,553 --> 00:46:07,305
on those 1934 sketches.
1060
00:46:07,306 --> 00:46:09,426
I mean, right away,
the date alone,
1061
00:46:09,433 --> 00:46:11,021
it's like you're telling me
1062
00:46:11,022 --> 00:46:13,728
that at the dawn of
the comic book itself,
1063
00:46:13,729 --> 00:46:16,398
which was created in 1933,
1064
00:46:16,399 --> 00:46:20,944
before there were
superheroes, obviously,
1065
00:46:20,945 --> 00:46:22,565
you're telling me
that you created
1066
00:46:22,571 --> 00:46:24,906
a Batman-like
character, Bob Kane.
1067
00:46:24,907 --> 00:46:28,737
Looking at the
drawing from 1934,
1068
00:46:28,744 --> 00:46:31,037
he's wearing a cowl,
1069
00:46:31,038 --> 00:46:34,078
and his original Batman
drawing didn't have a cowl.
1070
00:46:34,083 --> 00:46:37,419
It also... there's
a bat emblem on it.
1071
00:46:37,420 --> 00:46:40,755
The bat emblem was
suggested by Finger.
1072
00:46:40,756 --> 00:46:42,926
These are not
haphazard sketches.
1073
00:46:42,927 --> 00:46:44,755
These are something put together
1074
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,720
by someone retrospectively
trying to talk about
1075
00:46:47,722 --> 00:46:49,522
how they came up
with this character.
1076
00:47:02,069 --> 00:47:05,029
In this case, for a man to say,
1077
00:47:05,031 --> 00:47:06,448
"Bill created a costume,"
1078
00:47:06,449 --> 00:47:08,119
but here's my drawing
of the same costume
1079
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:10,577
"five years before."
1080
00:47:10,578 --> 00:47:12,088
There's just no
way to look at that
1081
00:47:12,089 --> 00:47:15,457
and not see... see
the scam going on,
1082
00:47:15,458 --> 00:47:17,958
see a man who's
desperately trying
1083
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,210
to hold onto
something that he knows
1084
00:47:20,212 --> 00:47:22,255
is not rightfully his.
1085
00:47:22,256 --> 00:47:24,126
At some point, if
you tell the story
1086
00:47:24,133 --> 00:47:26,509
enough to yourself,
then it just...
1087
00:47:26,510 --> 00:47:29,510
Your perception
is now your reality.
1088
00:47:30,973 --> 00:47:32,073
I do think that over time,
1089
00:47:32,074 --> 00:47:33,408
Bob started to feel differently
1090
00:47:33,409 --> 00:47:34,739
than he felt
when he was younger,
1091
00:47:34,743 --> 00:47:36,313
but he probably felt
trapped by the myth
1092
00:47:36,314 --> 00:47:38,312
of Bob Kane, which he created,
1093
00:47:38,314 --> 00:47:40,233
and I think he probably thought,
1094
00:47:40,234 --> 00:47:42,609
"I'm going to look much
worse if I come clean now..."
1095
00:47:42,610 --> 00:47:44,130
even if maybe his
conscience was saying
1096
00:47:44,131 --> 00:47:46,028
it would be the right...
Better thing to do,
1097
00:47:46,030 --> 00:47:47,600
"than if I just...
Let's see how long"
1098
00:47:47,601 --> 00:47:48,618
I can ride this out.
1099
00:47:48,624 --> 00:47:50,283
Maybe I can get to the grave
1100
00:47:50,284 --> 00:47:53,004
"with no one really
challenging me on this."
1101
00:47:53,005 --> 00:47:55,205
One day, when I'm 120 or so,
1102
00:47:55,206 --> 00:47:57,826
I'll look down from
the bat cave in the sky
1103
00:47:57,833 --> 00:48:00,381
at my little creation
that goes on and on and on,
1104
00:48:00,382 --> 00:48:02,587
and I'll just say,
"Hey, Warner Brothers"
1105
00:48:02,588 --> 00:48:04,008
and Leonardo, just send me
1106
00:48:04,009 --> 00:48:06,006
the residuals in the sky.
1107
00:48:06,008 --> 00:48:07,048
I'll give you my address,
1108
00:48:07,051 --> 00:48:10,845
"it's up there
where the angels are."
1109
00:48:10,846 --> 00:48:12,514
Bob died in 1998.
1110
00:48:12,515 --> 00:48:14,305
He got to live
through seeing Batman
1111
00:48:14,308 --> 00:48:16,684
become a worldwide phenomenon,
1112
00:48:16,685 --> 00:48:19,935
and had a proper
obituary in newspapers.
1113
00:48:19,939 --> 00:48:23,229
He was mentioned
on nightly news.
1114
00:48:23,234 --> 00:48:24,444
He went on to have a star
1115
00:48:24,445 --> 00:48:27,283
on the Hollywood Walk
of Fame many years later.
1116
00:48:27,284 --> 00:48:31,366
Bill died in 1974
with no obituary,
1117
00:48:31,367 --> 00:48:34,367
no funeral, no gravestone...
1118
00:48:35,830 --> 00:48:38,289
virtually unrecognized.
1119
00:48:38,290 --> 00:48:43,545
And Bob was remembered
as the creator of Batman.
1120
00:48:43,546 --> 00:48:45,126
His gravestone
says, "God bestowed"
1121
00:48:45,131 --> 00:48:47,048
a dream upon Bob Kane.
1122
00:48:47,049 --> 00:48:48,679
Blessed with divine inspiration
1123
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:50,296
and a rich imagination,
1124
00:48:50,302 --> 00:48:53,888
Bob created a legacy
known as BATMAN.
1125
00:48:53,889 --> 00:48:55,559
Bob Kane, Bruce Wayne, Batman,
1126
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:57,558
they are one and the same.
1127
00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,850
Bob infused his dual
identity character
1128
00:48:59,854 --> 00:49:03,731
with his own attributes:
Goodness, kindness,
1129
00:49:03,732 --> 00:49:06,651
"compassion, sensitivity,
generosity..."
1130
00:49:06,652 --> 00:49:08,402
I didn't know him,
and I'm very careful
1131
00:49:08,404 --> 00:49:09,574
to emphasize that.
1132
00:49:09,575 --> 00:49:12,407
I don't know what
he was like as a son
1133
00:49:12,408 --> 00:49:14,238
or a husband or a father,
1134
00:49:14,243 --> 00:49:15,912
and I want to think the best.
1135
00:49:15,913 --> 00:49:17,961
And, you know, he
had a right to be proud
1136
00:49:17,962 --> 00:49:20,995
of his role in Batman,
but professionally,
1137
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:22,330
he was not Bruce Wayne.
1138
00:49:22,334 --> 00:49:25,004
He was not what it
says on his gravestone.
1139
00:49:31,677 --> 00:49:34,637
Every child grows
up with parents
1140
00:49:34,638 --> 00:49:36,968
whose jobs become
part of their...
1141
00:49:36,974 --> 00:49:38,230
The texture of their lives,
1142
00:49:38,231 --> 00:49:39,805
and unfortunately for my kids,
1143
00:49:39,810 --> 00:49:42,854
that was Bill Finger,
so my kids knew more
1144
00:49:42,855 --> 00:49:44,435
about Bill Finger
at a very young age
1145
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,980
than some hardcore
Batman fans have known
1146
00:49:46,984 --> 00:49:49,235
at the peak of their knowledge.
1147
00:49:49,236 --> 00:49:52,906
What about your daddy?
1148
00:49:52,907 --> 00:49:54,365
You're my daddy!
1149
00:49:54,366 --> 00:49:57,576
- What's my name?
- Marc Tyler.
1150
00:49:57,578 --> 00:50:00,408
And what do I do all day?
1151
00:50:00,414 --> 00:50:04,042
- Work!
- What's my job?
1152
00:50:04,043 --> 00:50:06,463
Bill Finger.
1153
00:50:07,671 --> 00:50:09,589
What do I do?
1154
00:50:09,590 --> 00:50:12,840
- Bill Finger.
- But what does that mean?
1155
00:50:12,843 --> 00:50:15,637
Bill Finger.
1156
00:50:15,638 --> 00:50:18,138
- Who's Bill Finger?
- Bill Finger.
1157
00:50:18,140 --> 00:50:19,807
Is that my friend?
1158
00:50:19,808 --> 00:50:21,808
Yes!
1159
00:50:21,810 --> 00:50:24,100
My daughter, for
all intents, grew up
1160
00:50:24,104 --> 00:50:27,154
with Bill Finger as a part
of the extended family.
1161
00:50:27,155 --> 00:50:30,859
My wife was very patient.
1162
00:50:30,861 --> 00:50:32,111
We were young and struggling,
1163
00:50:32,112 --> 00:50:34,741
and I was putting in a lot
of time for this project
1164
00:50:34,742 --> 00:50:36,869
because I did get
consumed by this,
1165
00:50:36,870 --> 00:50:38,947
and not to the point
that I was not showing up
1166
00:50:38,953 --> 00:50:40,453
for family events or forgetting
1167
00:50:40,454 --> 00:50:41,624
to put my shoes on,
1168
00:50:41,625 --> 00:50:45,750
but I was really
very focused on this.
1169
00:50:45,751 --> 00:50:47,335
Excuse me, Batman!
1170
00:50:47,336 --> 00:50:49,086
Can I ask you a
couple questions?
1171
00:50:49,088 --> 00:50:51,008
- Where's Batman from?
- Gotham City.
1172
00:50:51,009 --> 00:50:52,876
And what's his real name?
1173
00:50:52,883 --> 00:50:54,175
Bruce Wayne.
1174
00:50:54,176 --> 00:50:58,054
- And who created him?
- Bob Kane.
1175
00:50:58,055 --> 00:50:59,345
Just Bob Kane?
1176
00:50:59,348 --> 00:51:01,388
When I see people
wearing Batman shirts
1177
00:51:01,392 --> 00:51:04,102
or Batman clothes,
which I do all the time,
1178
00:51:04,103 --> 00:51:05,853
yeah, I do smile
to myself and think,
1179
00:51:05,854 --> 00:51:07,254
"Should I stop
that guy and ask him
1180
00:51:07,255 --> 00:51:08,577
if he knows who Bill Finger is?"
1181
00:51:08,582 --> 00:51:10,441
- Who's Dick Grayson?
- Dick Grayson...
1182
00:51:10,442 --> 00:51:12,532
He's the first Robin,
also Nightwing.
1183
00:51:12,533 --> 00:51:13,818
Who's Bill Finger?
1184
00:51:13,821 --> 00:51:15,111
Bill Finger?
1185
00:51:15,114 --> 00:51:16,281
Him I don't know.
1186
00:51:16,282 --> 00:51:17,322
The story is so good,
1187
00:51:17,324 --> 00:51:18,616
anyone wearing a Batman shirt
1188
00:51:18,617 --> 00:51:19,677
would want to know it.
1189
00:51:19,678 --> 00:51:21,617
I have a few
Batman T-shirts left
1190
00:51:21,620 --> 00:51:22,908
that I would like to give out.
1191
00:51:22,909 --> 00:51:24,195
- Does anybody want one?
- Sure!
1192
00:51:24,198 --> 00:51:25,578
All right.
1193
00:51:25,583 --> 00:51:27,013
They probably
looked at those shirts
1194
00:51:27,014 --> 00:51:28,509
and said, "Wait,
this isn't Batman."
1195
00:51:28,510 --> 00:51:30,048
This is Bill Finger...
Who's that?"
1196
00:51:30,049 --> 00:51:31,455
It just got me thinking, well,
1197
00:51:31,463 --> 00:51:33,219
the only way this
would be possible
1198
00:51:33,220 --> 00:51:36,255
is if by some miracle
this book can be a part
1199
00:51:36,260 --> 00:51:38,760
of the larger
groundswell of support
1200
00:51:38,762 --> 00:51:40,722
that might be able
to overturn the idea
1201
00:51:40,723 --> 00:51:43,352
that you need to be an
heir to fight for credit.
1202
00:51:43,353 --> 00:51:45,229
Maybe there could be
enough public support
1203
00:51:45,230 --> 00:51:46,977
to say there's enough proof
1204
00:51:46,979 --> 00:51:48,398
that this person was involved
1205
00:51:48,399 --> 00:51:50,477
that we don't need an
heir to make this right,
1206
00:51:50,482 --> 00:51:52,734
to make this whole again.
1207
00:51:52,735 --> 00:51:53,985
I mean, maybe that can happen,
1208
00:51:53,986 --> 00:51:55,526
I mean, laws get
overturned, right?
1209
00:51:57,740 --> 00:51:58,950
When I started this research,
1210
00:51:58,951 --> 00:52:01,909
we knew just about
zip about Bill's family
1211
00:52:01,910 --> 00:52:03,180
with the exception of the fact
1212
00:52:03,181 --> 00:52:04,908
that he had a son named Fred.
1213
00:52:04,913 --> 00:52:07,540
So I learned that
Fred was a chef,
1214
00:52:07,541 --> 00:52:09,250
and I know that he
had spent some time
1215
00:52:09,251 --> 00:52:12,128
on the west coast,
and it also turned out
1216
00:52:12,129 --> 00:52:13,759
that Fred had developed AIDS
1217
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:15,796
and died in 1992.
1218
00:52:15,799 --> 00:52:19,719
He was the last surviving
heir of Bill Finger.
1219
00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:22,600
So my next approach was
to try to find people
1220
00:52:22,601 --> 00:52:24,428
on his first wife's side.
1221
00:52:24,433 --> 00:52:26,771
So her name was Portia,
and I decided to try
1222
00:52:26,772 --> 00:52:29,439
to look through the
New York Times obituaries.
1223
00:52:31,649 --> 00:52:34,567
Prior to 1981 if you get a hit,
1224
00:52:34,568 --> 00:52:36,488
you don't bring
up the actual obit,
1225
00:52:36,489 --> 00:52:39,656
you bring up the whole page
where that obit appears.
1226
00:52:39,657 --> 00:52:42,027
So I did this for hours,
and I eventually found
1227
00:52:42,034 --> 00:52:44,952
the obituary for
Portia's mother,
1228
00:52:44,953 --> 00:52:46,582
which means Bill's
mother-in-law,
1229
00:52:46,583 --> 00:52:48,750
and in that obituary
there were three names.
1230
00:52:48,751 --> 00:52:51,419
Fred, Bill's son, which
I already knew, of course,
1231
00:52:51,420 --> 00:52:56,005
and two of Fred's cousins,
Judy and Eric Flam.
1232
00:52:56,006 --> 00:52:58,626
So I searched them,
and it was at probably
1233
00:52:58,634 --> 00:53:01,554
about 11 o'clock at
night on the east coast.
1234
00:53:01,555 --> 00:53:03,723
Judy was in Massachusetts,
too late to call her,
1235
00:53:03,724 --> 00:53:06,682
as excited as I was,
but Eric was in Arizona,
1236
00:53:06,684 --> 00:53:09,102
so I called him right then.
1237
00:53:09,103 --> 00:53:11,813
And when I called Eric,
I said, "I'm a writer",
1238
00:53:11,814 --> 00:53:12,964
and I'm working on a project
1239
00:53:12,965 --> 00:53:15,316
"about a writer
named Bill Finger."
1240
00:53:15,317 --> 00:53:17,276
And he said, "What did you say?"
1241
00:53:17,277 --> 00:53:18,817
And I said, "Bill Finger,"
1242
00:53:18,821 --> 00:53:20,700
and he put the
phone to the side,
1243
00:53:20,701 --> 00:53:22,988
and he called to
his wife and said,
1244
00:53:22,991 --> 00:53:24,281
"This guy's calling
about Bill Finger!"
1245
00:53:24,284 --> 00:53:25,454
Uncle Bill, no one's ever called
1246
00:53:25,455 --> 00:53:26,661
"about Uncle Bill before!"
1247
00:53:26,662 --> 00:53:28,432
And then he came back
on the phone and said,
1248
00:53:28,433 --> 00:53:29,480
"Well, I don't know much."
1249
00:53:29,481 --> 00:53:30,871
My sister Judy would know more,
1250
00:53:30,874 --> 00:53:32,542
you can call her tomorrow,
1251
00:53:32,543 --> 00:53:34,023
but I think what
you really should do
1252
00:53:34,024 --> 00:53:35,669
"is talk to Bill's
granddaughter."
1253
00:53:35,671 --> 00:53:39,507
And I said, "But Bill
doesn't have a granddaughter!"
1254
00:53:39,508 --> 00:53:40,588
He said, "No, but he does,"
1255
00:53:40,592 --> 00:53:43,012
and I said, "Well,
he had only one child",
1256
00:53:43,013 --> 00:53:44,761
Fred, who was gay,
and that was it,"
1257
00:53:44,763 --> 00:53:46,519
as if I would know
better than the family.
1258
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:48,175
And Eric said, "That is true",
1259
00:53:48,183 --> 00:53:49,623
he did have a son
Fred who was gay,
1260
00:53:49,624 --> 00:53:52,808
"but Fred had a daughter."
1261
00:53:52,813 --> 00:53:54,483
When I first heard those words,
1262
00:53:54,484 --> 00:53:57,525
"You should look for
Bill's granddaughter,"
1263
00:53:57,526 --> 00:54:00,526
I feel like I saw
a movie marquee,
1264
00:54:00,529 --> 00:54:03,279
and it said,
"The Heir to Batman."
1265
00:54:05,159 --> 00:54:07,994
And it made me feel
like this might be
1266
00:54:07,995 --> 00:54:12,205
a bigger story than
anybody realized.
1267
00:54:12,207 --> 00:54:14,667
The next day, I spoke with Judy.
1268
00:54:14,668 --> 00:54:15,877
Judy was the one who told me
1269
00:54:15,878 --> 00:54:17,628
that her name was Athena.
1270
00:54:17,629 --> 00:54:18,969
The best she
could do was give me
1271
00:54:18,972 --> 00:54:22,508
her last known state, Florida,
1272
00:54:22,509 --> 00:54:23,718
so I was back to square one,
1273
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:27,259
looking for an heir that
we did not know existed.
1274
00:54:27,264 --> 00:54:29,020
I did not find an Athena Finger
1275
00:54:29,021 --> 00:54:30,056
in the Florida directory,
1276
00:54:30,058 --> 00:54:33,098
so I wasn't even sure
that that was accurate,
1277
00:54:33,103 --> 00:54:34,900
so I ended up looking online
1278
00:54:34,901 --> 00:54:36,227
for any mention of her,
1279
00:54:36,231 --> 00:54:38,775
and I found record
of her wedding.
1280
00:54:38,776 --> 00:54:41,066
She married a man
named Zaido Cruz.
1281
00:54:41,069 --> 00:54:43,569
So I found mention
of a Zaido Cruz
1282
00:54:43,572 --> 00:54:46,699
on the website of a drummer
1283
00:54:46,700 --> 00:54:48,788
whose name was Lance,
if I'm not mistaken.
1284
00:54:48,789 --> 00:54:50,115
And I emailed Lance and said,
1285
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:51,208
"Is this the Zaido Cruz
1286
00:54:51,209 --> 00:54:53,205
who's married to Athena Finger?"
1287
00:54:53,207 --> 00:54:54,747
And he said... he wrote back,
1288
00:54:54,750 --> 00:54:56,080
and I never spoke with him,
1289
00:54:56,084 --> 00:54:58,004
but this is the voice
that I heard, he's like,
1290
00:54:58,005 --> 00:55:00,463
"Yeah, man, hey,
dude, I know Zaido!
1291
00:55:00,464 --> 00:55:01,589
Yeah, he's in my band!"
1292
00:55:01,590 --> 00:55:03,190
or "I've played with
him, we've jammed",
1293
00:55:03,191 --> 00:55:05,179
and you should
totally look him up,
1294
00:55:05,180 --> 00:55:06,927
and you should find
them and, you know,
1295
00:55:06,929 --> 00:55:08,429
"Athena should be easy to find!"
1296
00:55:08,430 --> 00:55:09,470
And I said, "How's that?"
1297
00:55:09,473 --> 00:55:10,943
And he said, "Well,
just look her up"
1298
00:55:10,944 --> 00:55:12,141
on her Myspace page."
1299
00:55:12,142 --> 00:55:15,102
In 2007, I was not
thinking Myspace
1300
00:55:15,103 --> 00:55:16,982
or Facebook or
social media at all.
1301
00:55:16,983 --> 00:55:19,150
So that was a revelation,
so thanks, Lance!
1302
00:55:19,151 --> 00:55:22,859
So I looked Athena
up on Myspace,
1303
00:55:22,861 --> 00:55:26,280
and when I found the
only Athena Finger there,
1304
00:55:26,281 --> 00:55:29,121
the first thing I saw
was a photo of a dog,
1305
00:55:29,122 --> 00:55:33,537
and the caption was,
"My Dog, Bruce Wayne."
1306
00:55:33,539 --> 00:55:35,456
That was a fist pump moment.
1307
00:55:35,457 --> 00:55:36,807
I don't think I
literally stood up
1308
00:55:36,808 --> 00:55:38,626
and did a fist pump,
1309
00:55:38,627 --> 00:55:39,917
that's maybe not my character,
1310
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,050
but in my mind I
was doing somersaults
1311
00:55:42,051 --> 00:55:45,127
and throwing the football down
1312
00:55:45,133 --> 00:55:46,473
and doing a dance
in the end zone.
1313
00:55:46,474 --> 00:55:48,008
That was my moment.
1314
00:55:48,011 --> 00:55:49,178
So I had that moment before,
1315
00:55:49,179 --> 00:55:50,429
I had that moment with Charles,
1316
00:55:50,430 --> 00:55:51,970
I had that moment with Lyn,
1317
00:55:51,974 --> 00:55:55,184
but those things filled in gaps.
1318
00:55:55,185 --> 00:55:57,765
They didn't completely
change the story.
1319
00:56:01,817 --> 00:56:06,445
We are en route to
see Athena Finger,
1320
00:56:06,446 --> 00:56:10,656
the only heir to Bill Finger.
1321
00:56:10,659 --> 00:56:11,889
This would be a big shake-up.
1322
00:56:11,890 --> 00:56:14,995
If the credit line
to Batman was changed
1323
00:56:14,997 --> 00:56:17,997
after 72 years,
that would be a big deal,
1324
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:19,540
and that would
actually be a first.
1325
00:56:19,543 --> 00:56:21,462
I can't think of
another comics character
1326
00:56:21,463 --> 00:56:23,801
whose credit line
has been changed.
1327
00:56:24,798 --> 00:56:27,088
- Hello... hey!
- Hey!
1328
00:56:27,092 --> 00:56:28,470
- How are you?
- How are you?
1329
00:56:28,471 --> 00:56:30,138
- Good, how are you?
- Good!
1330
00:56:30,139 --> 00:56:32,677
- And here's Bruce Wayne!
- That's Bruce Wayne!
1331
00:56:32,681 --> 00:56:33,931
How you doing?
1332
00:56:35,350 --> 00:56:37,685
I found out about Bill Finger
1333
00:56:37,686 --> 00:56:40,306
and his association with Batman
1334
00:56:40,314 --> 00:56:41,480
at an early age,
1335
00:56:41,481 --> 00:56:46,027
and I knew that my father
was excited and thrilled
1336
00:56:46,028 --> 00:56:48,157
about what his
father had created
1337
00:56:48,158 --> 00:56:49,695
with the Batman storyline,
1338
00:56:49,698 --> 00:56:53,488
and how he made it
what we love today.
1339
00:56:53,493 --> 00:56:55,745
Marc had found me,
1340
00:56:55,746 --> 00:56:58,366
and he explained
what he had been doing
1341
00:56:58,373 --> 00:57:00,583
and shared a bunch
of information
1342
00:57:00,584 --> 00:57:02,212
that he had found
that I didn't know
1343
00:57:02,213 --> 00:57:04,800
about Bill's family
and things like that.
1344
00:57:04,801 --> 00:57:07,666
She said to me, you know,
1345
00:57:07,674 --> 00:57:09,553
"I never knew my grandfather."
1346
00:57:09,554 --> 00:57:11,051
I was born two
years after he died,
1347
00:57:11,053 --> 00:57:13,222
so you could probably
tell me more about him
1348
00:57:13,223 --> 00:57:15,890
than I can tell you,
but I'm very interested
1349
00:57:15,891 --> 00:57:17,681
"in hearing what
you have to say."
1350
00:57:17,684 --> 00:57:18,993
Bill used to keep copious notes.
1351
00:57:18,994 --> 00:57:21,732
He had gimmick books
where he would jot down
1352
00:57:21,733 --> 00:57:23,520
an idea that he
would use in the future,
1353
00:57:23,523 --> 00:57:26,113
- and a lot of it was...
- It was kind of exciting,
1354
00:57:26,114 --> 00:57:28,819
but it also was upsetting.
1355
00:57:28,820 --> 00:57:31,864
It brought up a lot
of this old stuff
1356
00:57:31,865 --> 00:57:34,445
that had been going on before...
Around my father's death
1357
00:57:34,451 --> 00:57:36,160
and around my
grandfather's death,
1358
00:57:36,161 --> 00:57:39,705
and just how everything
was not really
1359
00:57:39,706 --> 00:57:41,246
in its proper place.
1360
00:57:41,249 --> 00:57:46,045
I told you that I found
an interview with your dad.
1361
00:57:46,046 --> 00:57:47,755
- Yes.
- And I have it.
1362
00:57:47,756 --> 00:57:49,546
Oh, you have it!
1363
00:57:49,549 --> 00:57:52,176
He had to write a lot of stories
1364
00:57:52,177 --> 00:57:53,847
in order to make
any kind of money.
1365
00:57:53,848 --> 00:57:56,595
He would get together
1366
00:57:56,598 --> 00:57:58,768
with a couple of
the other writers...
1367
00:57:58,769 --> 00:57:59,887
And I didn't know yet
1368
00:57:59,893 --> 00:58:03,104
that there was so much
trauma in the family.
1369
00:58:03,105 --> 00:58:04,645
It wasn't just a story of a girl
1370
00:58:04,648 --> 00:58:06,268
who never knew her grandfather.
1371
00:58:06,274 --> 00:58:07,524
It was also a story of a girl
1372
00:58:07,525 --> 00:58:10,897
who had issues with her father.
1373
00:58:10,904 --> 00:58:13,739
I haven't seen my
dad in, like, forever.
1374
00:58:17,244 --> 00:58:19,203
My parents split when
I was three and a half,
1375
00:58:19,204 --> 00:58:21,664
so I didn't grow up with my dad.
1376
00:58:21,665 --> 00:58:22,705
I only got to see him
1377
00:58:22,708 --> 00:58:24,917
maybe a couple times a year.
1378
00:58:24,918 --> 00:58:27,248
It was really like,
if we went to New York,
1379
00:58:27,254 --> 00:58:28,504
we would go to the restaurant
1380
00:58:28,505 --> 00:58:30,506
that he was working
at and have dinner,
1381
00:58:30,507 --> 00:58:33,047
or he might come
up to Massachusetts
1382
00:58:33,051 --> 00:58:34,760
and spend a couple days.
1383
00:58:34,761 --> 00:58:36,811
It wasn't like I
had extended amounts
1384
00:58:36,812 --> 00:58:38,805
of time with him,
1385
00:58:38,807 --> 00:58:41,517
which kind of sucked,
because I only had him
1386
00:58:41,518 --> 00:58:43,808
for such a short amount of time.
1387
00:58:46,064 --> 00:58:48,733
I was married six years.
1388
00:58:48,734 --> 00:58:50,863
I just understood
that he was bisexual
1389
00:58:50,864 --> 00:58:52,701
from the day that I met him,
1390
00:58:52,702 --> 00:58:54,526
and it wasn't a situation
1391
00:58:54,531 --> 00:58:57,408
that needed to be spoken of.
1392
00:58:57,409 --> 00:59:00,159
It was something
that we both understood
1393
00:59:00,162 --> 00:59:02,496
and accepted.
1394
00:59:02,497 --> 00:59:06,417
I learned that Fred
was HIV positive
1395
00:59:06,418 --> 00:59:09,048
the summer after I
was in the fourth grade,
1396
00:59:09,049 --> 00:59:11,835
so that's, what, 10?
1397
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:14,630
I spent a week with
him during the summer,
1398
00:59:14,634 --> 00:59:18,512
and he and I were at
the beach in Long Island,
1399
00:59:18,513 --> 00:59:21,223
and he's like, "I
got to talk to you."
1400
00:59:21,224 --> 00:59:24,435
So he was explaining,
1401
00:59:24,436 --> 00:59:25,596
"This is what's going on,
1402
00:59:25,604 --> 00:59:28,324
and we don't know
how long I have."
1403
00:59:30,150 --> 00:59:33,027
And then when he
came to visit us
1404
00:59:33,028 --> 00:59:34,698
right before he passed away,
1405
00:59:34,699 --> 00:59:37,486
he was teeny-tiny,
just skin and bones.
1406
00:59:37,491 --> 00:59:40,241
I mean, he was down to nothing.
1407
00:59:42,454 --> 00:59:43,624
When he came to visit
1408
00:59:43,625 --> 00:59:46,040
near the real end of his life,
1409
00:59:46,041 --> 00:59:48,334
we asked him not to leave.
1410
00:59:50,170 --> 00:59:51,960
How did he respond,
what did he say?
1411
00:59:51,963 --> 00:59:53,153
He said, "I have to go back."
1412
00:59:53,154 --> 00:59:55,424
I have to die in New York."
1413
00:59:59,721 --> 01:00:03,390
That year was rough.
1414
01:00:03,391 --> 01:00:06,227
Being 15 at the time,
not quite an adult,
1415
01:00:06,228 --> 01:00:08,558
but had to deal
with real adult issues,
1416
01:00:08,563 --> 01:00:12,358
and I was very angry
about a lot of things.
1417
01:00:14,027 --> 01:00:17,947
And then, when he passed
away two months later,
1418
01:00:17,948 --> 01:00:20,407
I wasn't included,
I wasn't informed,
1419
01:00:20,408 --> 01:00:22,326
I wasn't...
1420
01:00:22,327 --> 01:00:25,577
I just was excluded
from everything.
1421
01:00:25,580 --> 01:00:27,959
I was really upset about it,
very angry about it
1422
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:29,578
because I was his only child
1423
01:00:29,584 --> 01:00:31,754
and I should have been
there and I wasn't.
1424
01:00:33,255 --> 01:00:36,045
AIDS was still very new
1425
01:00:36,049 --> 01:00:40,344
and stigmatized
1426
01:00:40,345 --> 01:00:42,755
and scary.
1427
01:00:42,764 --> 01:00:45,099
There was a lot of comfort
1428
01:00:45,100 --> 01:00:49,687
being with people who are
experiencing the same thing
1429
01:00:49,688 --> 01:00:54,316
and he created
a family of friends
1430
01:00:54,317 --> 01:00:57,607
that were there
when it got tough.
1431
01:00:57,612 --> 01:01:01,115
So New York was where
he really had to be,
1432
01:01:01,116 --> 01:01:02,486
he felt.
1433
01:01:07,622 --> 01:01:10,291
I still don't have closure.
1434
01:01:10,292 --> 01:01:12,422
I was excluded from everything.
1435
01:01:13,587 --> 01:01:15,796
I really was.
1436
01:01:15,797 --> 01:01:17,087
Sorry.
1437
01:01:20,886 --> 01:01:23,804
I wasn't even there
to spread his ashes.
1438
01:01:33,732 --> 01:01:35,816
I don't even know where he is.
1439
01:01:42,991 --> 01:01:45,159
When Marc Nobleman called me,
1440
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:50,370
I said to him, "I'm not sure
that this is beneficial"
1441
01:01:50,373 --> 01:01:51,713
to our family welfare,
1442
01:01:51,714 --> 01:01:53,998
"for this to be
brought up again."
1443
01:01:54,002 --> 01:01:58,505
We tried our hardest to do
something about it in the past.
1444
01:01:58,506 --> 01:02:02,506
I mean, I love Fred and
I wanted credit for Bill,
1445
01:02:02,510 --> 01:02:07,097
but we had spent years trying
to get the credit for him.
1446
01:02:08,475 --> 01:02:12,305
Fred really just wanted
his father to have recognition.
1447
01:02:12,312 --> 01:02:15,189
It was very important
for Fred to validate
1448
01:02:15,190 --> 01:02:18,690
the existence of his father
and his artistic talents
1449
01:02:18,693 --> 01:02:21,654
and he gave it his best.
1450
01:02:21,655 --> 01:02:24,565
I never went to DC,
Fred went to DC alone,
1451
01:02:24,574 --> 01:02:27,952
but I understand the way
that it was dealt with.
1452
01:02:27,953 --> 01:02:29,623
They treated you
like you were family
1453
01:02:29,624 --> 01:02:32,665
but gave you nothing
in return for it.
1454
01:02:32,666 --> 01:02:36,085
Anything to make you
feel comfortable
1455
01:02:36,086 --> 01:02:40,296
but they were keeping
everything for themselves.
1456
01:02:40,298 --> 01:02:41,798
After about the third attorney,
1457
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:45,260
Fred just said, "We just need to
stop this, Bonnie, and go on."
1458
01:02:45,261 --> 01:02:51,391
So Fred never got to see
his father get, on the screen,
1459
01:02:51,393 --> 01:02:53,644
"Co-creator William Finger."
1460
01:02:55,855 --> 01:02:58,105
The tradition in our
family, unfortunately,
1461
01:02:58,108 --> 01:03:00,858
is being excluded
from everything.
1462
01:03:00,860 --> 01:03:04,405
There is this sense
of not being acknowledged,
1463
01:03:04,406 --> 01:03:09,696
of what I'm part of
and who my family was.
1464
01:03:09,703 --> 01:03:10,933
I remember in the third grade
1465
01:03:10,934 --> 01:03:14,079
we had to do this
book on our lives,
1466
01:03:14,082 --> 01:03:17,251
so I included the information
about my grandfather
1467
01:03:17,252 --> 01:03:19,631
and his involvement
with Batman and stuff
1468
01:03:19,632 --> 01:03:21,088
and people wouldn't believe me
1469
01:03:21,089 --> 01:03:22,756
or they questioned me.
1470
01:03:22,757 --> 01:03:25,047
So for a long time
I kept quiet about it,
1471
01:03:25,051 --> 01:03:27,101
especially after my
father passed away.
1472
01:03:28,304 --> 01:03:32,349
I always kind of referred to
it as, like, the dark cloud
1473
01:03:32,350 --> 01:03:33,688
that hung over my head
1474
01:03:33,689 --> 01:03:36,145
because it was
something that I knew
1475
01:03:36,146 --> 01:03:38,436
that needed to be corrected,
1476
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:41,275
just didn't know
which avenue to take.
1477
01:03:41,276 --> 01:03:43,856
So it was always, like, looming.
1478
01:03:46,614 --> 01:03:48,580
I wasted no time
in telling Athena
1479
01:03:48,581 --> 01:03:50,735
that I would be
disappointed in myself
1480
01:03:50,744 --> 01:03:53,460
if I didn't tell you
that this is your birthright
1481
01:03:53,461 --> 01:03:55,995
and I thought for a year
that nobody could ever do
1482
01:03:55,999 --> 01:03:57,539
anything about this credit line,
1483
01:03:57,542 --> 01:03:58,920
and I'm going to
write this book,
1484
01:03:58,921 --> 01:04:02,128
but if we want a shot at
changing that credit line,
1485
01:04:02,130 --> 01:04:03,505
"it has to be you."
1486
01:04:03,506 --> 01:04:04,965
I had been told for a long time
1487
01:04:04,966 --> 01:04:06,626
that it was kind of a dead issue
1488
01:04:06,634 --> 01:04:08,304
and I shouldn't really pursue it
1489
01:04:08,305 --> 01:04:09,683
and I should just let it be,
1490
01:04:09,684 --> 01:04:11,805
and it would take tons of money
1491
01:04:11,806 --> 01:04:13,386
and, like, all
these other excuses
1492
01:04:13,391 --> 01:04:17,144
of why I shouldn't pursue
adding Bill's credit.
1493
01:04:17,145 --> 01:04:19,765
I encouraged Athena
to contact DC
1494
01:04:19,773 --> 01:04:24,276
and at first she was
not keen on that.
1495
01:04:24,277 --> 01:04:27,357
She was a young mom
with a career and a life
1496
01:04:27,363 --> 01:04:29,393
and she said, "Of course
I've thought about this",
1497
01:04:29,394 --> 01:04:30,578
but this is too daunting.
1498
01:04:30,579 --> 01:04:32,695
"I mean, where do
you even start?"
1499
01:04:32,702 --> 01:04:35,621
It took some
convincing of Marc to,
1500
01:04:35,622 --> 01:04:37,539
"Athena, go, talk to them.
1501
01:04:37,540 --> 01:04:40,167
Call this person."
1502
01:04:40,168 --> 01:04:41,837
I'm like, "Eh, I don't know."
1503
01:04:41,838 --> 01:04:43,506
Like, I was really hesitant.
1504
01:04:43,507 --> 01:04:45,214
I didn't know what to expect.
1505
01:04:46,424 --> 01:04:49,472
But as soon as I spoke to them,
they invited me up to come
1506
01:04:49,473 --> 01:04:51,299
and take a tour of the office
1507
01:04:51,304 --> 01:04:52,763
when it was still
in New York City,
1508
01:04:52,764 --> 01:04:54,973
which was very cool.
1509
01:04:54,974 --> 01:04:57,353
So then after that,
we went to the movie premiere
1510
01:04:57,354 --> 01:04:58,649
for "The Dark Knight"
1511
01:04:58,650 --> 01:05:02,015
and did the whole red carpet
and then the after-party.
1512
01:05:02,023 --> 01:05:03,899
It was just like, "Woo!"
1513
01:05:03,900 --> 01:05:05,109
It was awesome.
1514
01:05:05,110 --> 01:05:08,198
It was a really amazing scene
seeing all these people
1515
01:05:08,199 --> 01:05:09,736
and it was like Hollywood.
1516
01:05:09,739 --> 01:05:12,324
Like, it was so
cool to be there.
1517
01:05:12,325 --> 01:05:14,235
Like, "Oh my gosh,
I'm a part of this."
1518
01:05:14,244 --> 01:05:17,210
And then they just kept
inviting me to things.
1519
01:05:17,211 --> 01:05:19,955
You know, just really
accepting and, like,
1520
01:05:19,958 --> 01:05:21,166
"Please, join in."
1521
01:05:21,167 --> 01:05:22,837
PR people got in touch with me
1522
01:05:22,838 --> 01:05:25,376
and informed me that they were
going to pay for the room
1523
01:05:25,380 --> 01:05:27,880
and fly me and
my friend out here.
1524
01:05:27,882 --> 01:05:30,592
I get to play movie star
for a little while.
1525
01:05:30,593 --> 01:05:32,643
The whole thing was very fast.
1526
01:05:32,644 --> 01:05:34,887
Finding the heir and then DC
1527
01:05:34,889 --> 01:05:37,889
being quite cooperative
about the whole process.
1528
01:05:37,892 --> 01:05:42,020
I was very surprised
by how that all happened.
1529
01:05:42,021 --> 01:05:43,730
They were very generous
1530
01:05:43,731 --> 01:05:47,734
and they did send me
a bonus sum of money
1531
01:05:47,735 --> 01:05:48,855
for the movie.
1532
01:05:48,862 --> 01:05:51,071
It said, you know,
"This is," you know,
1533
01:05:51,072 --> 01:05:53,031
"for his contributions."
1534
01:05:53,032 --> 01:05:56,412
You know, "We're so glad that
you're part of the family now."
1535
01:05:56,413 --> 01:06:00,414
So I was like,
"Oh, this is nice."
1536
01:06:00,415 --> 01:06:01,915
The term "Thank you payment,"
1537
01:06:01,916 --> 01:06:05,166
it's a case where a
company writes a writer
1538
01:06:05,170 --> 01:06:07,170
or an artist a check
1539
01:06:07,172 --> 01:06:08,509
and says, "We're giving you this"
1540
01:06:08,510 --> 01:06:10,465
because you contributed
something or other
1541
01:06:10,466 --> 01:06:12,006
"to this character."
1542
01:06:12,010 --> 01:06:14,010
I guess that's the kind of
thing that the companies
1543
01:06:14,012 --> 01:06:16,762
have wanted to do
in the last few decades
1544
01:06:16,764 --> 01:06:19,521
as the things got to be
really big business.
1545
01:06:19,522 --> 01:06:20,767
There's so much money involved
1546
01:06:20,768 --> 01:06:22,938
and nobody wants
a lot of lawsuits.
1547
01:06:22,939 --> 01:06:25,017
So it just makes a lot of sense
1548
01:06:25,023 --> 01:06:26,443
giving a few thousand dollars,
1549
01:06:26,444 --> 01:06:29,610
$10,000 or $20,000 to somebody.
1550
01:06:29,611 --> 01:06:31,445
You know, somewhere between
1551
01:06:31,446 --> 01:06:32,856
creator credit and hush money.
1552
01:06:32,864 --> 01:06:36,204
The Bill Finger story
has a number of imperatives.
1553
01:06:36,205 --> 01:06:38,911
There's the cultural
side of this,
1554
01:06:38,912 --> 01:06:40,959
there is the moral side of this,
1555
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:42,825
there is the
financial side of this.
1556
01:06:42,832 --> 01:06:45,125
How much is Batman worth now?
1557
01:06:45,126 --> 01:06:46,286
A gob!
1558
01:06:46,294 --> 01:06:47,404
What are you talking about?
1559
01:06:47,405 --> 01:06:49,625
It's movies,
it's toys, it's pajamas,
1560
01:06:49,631 --> 01:06:52,257
it's cartoons, it's comi...
1561
01:06:52,258 --> 01:06:53,717
I mean, it's a vernacular.
1562
01:06:53,718 --> 01:06:55,968
You say "Batman" to a grandma...
1563
01:06:55,970 --> 01:06:57,260
This is the greatest brand...
1564
01:06:57,263 --> 01:07:00,098
"Batman," grandma
knows through attrition.
1565
01:07:00,099 --> 01:07:01,769
When you open a comic
book, there it says,
1566
01:07:01,770 --> 01:07:02,857
"Created by Bob Kane."
1567
01:07:02,860 --> 01:07:05,398
When you see the movies, it
says, "Created by Bob Kane."
1568
01:07:05,399 --> 01:07:06,936
Correcting that is something
1569
01:07:06,940 --> 01:07:09,149
that terrified everybody,
I think, for decades
1570
01:07:09,150 --> 01:07:11,900
because correcting that
isn't just a simple matter
1571
01:07:11,903 --> 01:07:15,614
of putting Bill Finger's
name onto Batman.
1572
01:07:15,615 --> 01:07:17,485
It also opens up the floodgates
1573
01:07:17,492 --> 01:07:19,992
to a massive conglomerate
1574
01:07:19,994 --> 01:07:22,621
for potential revenue tapping.
1575
01:07:22,622 --> 01:07:26,582
DC Comics is one spoke
in the massive operation
1576
01:07:26,584 --> 01:07:27,834
that is Warner Brothers,
1577
01:07:27,835 --> 01:07:29,185
which is underneath Time Warner.
1578
01:07:29,187 --> 01:07:31,587
So, I mean, it's a huge
media company, of course,
1579
01:07:31,589 --> 01:07:34,258
and Batman is one of
the biggest money makers
1580
01:07:34,259 --> 01:07:36,677
in fiction, period.
1581
01:07:36,678 --> 01:07:40,806
So DC was under
the umbrella of Warner Brothers
1582
01:07:40,807 --> 01:07:43,137
but as soon as we got
to "The Dark Knight Rises,"
1583
01:07:43,142 --> 01:07:45,142
Warner Brothers
was really overseeing
1584
01:07:45,144 --> 01:07:47,688
all of the corporate side.
1585
01:07:47,689 --> 01:07:50,148
Which brings me into in 2012
1586
01:07:50,149 --> 01:07:52,278
when "The Dark Knight
Rises" came out
1587
01:07:52,279 --> 01:07:54,236
and I got an email
saying, you know,
1588
01:07:54,237 --> 01:07:57,947
"We would like to have
you sign this document"
1589
01:07:57,949 --> 01:08:00,199
so that we can cut you a check,
1590
01:08:00,201 --> 01:08:02,201
"so sign it and please return."
1591
01:08:02,203 --> 01:08:03,791
But the gist of it
was they wanted me
1592
01:08:03,792 --> 01:08:06,748
to terminate my rights
to any kind of claim.
1593
01:08:06,749 --> 01:08:08,539
They wanted me to close the door
1594
01:08:08,543 --> 01:08:11,586
on Bill getting any
kind of credit.
1595
01:08:11,587 --> 01:08:14,217
They were trying
to make me quiet.
1596
01:08:16,926 --> 01:08:17,926
Yeah, right?
1597
01:08:17,927 --> 01:08:19,417
- So is this for you?
- Yes, please.
1598
01:08:19,420 --> 01:08:20,487
Alex or Alex...
1599
01:08:20,488 --> 01:08:21,847
- Alex.
- Okay.
1600
01:08:21,848 --> 01:08:23,557
I had this blind faith all along
1601
01:08:23,558 --> 01:08:26,228
that I would see the book
through to publication.
1602
01:08:26,229 --> 01:08:28,767
Although, believe me,
there were plenty of roadblocks
1603
01:08:28,771 --> 01:08:30,061
and obstacles.
1604
01:08:30,064 --> 01:08:32,104
So getting the book out
was a huge accomplishment;
1605
01:08:32,105 --> 01:08:35,649
Just to see any book through
is something I'm proud of.
1606
01:08:35,653 --> 01:08:37,321
The book came out in 2012
1607
01:08:37,322 --> 01:08:40,574
and with it came a
chance to talk about Bill
1608
01:08:40,575 --> 01:08:43,155
in an arena that was
even bigger than a book.
1609
01:08:43,161 --> 01:08:44,870
Secret identities
are for superheroes,
1610
01:08:44,871 --> 01:08:46,251
not the guys behind them.
1611
01:08:46,252 --> 01:08:48,787
I had the chance
to do a TED Talk.
1612
01:08:48,791 --> 01:08:51,211
Bill Finger's life
ended tragically,
1613
01:08:51,212 --> 01:08:53,795
but his story isn't over yet.
1614
01:08:53,796 --> 01:08:55,505
I was interviewed on NPR.
1615
01:08:55,506 --> 01:08:57,296
Now if you've seen
"The Dark Knight Rises,"
1616
01:08:57,300 --> 01:09:00,594
the name not there
is that of Bill Finger.
1617
01:09:00,595 --> 01:09:03,925
I had the chance to go
on Kevin Smith's podcast.
1618
01:09:03,931 --> 01:09:06,519
Does he have heirs,
is there a family?
1619
01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:08,267
Yeah, well, that
was the biggest, uh,
1620
01:09:08,269 --> 01:09:09,769
discovery of my research.
1621
01:09:09,771 --> 01:09:11,811
Legally I can't do
anything to change this,
1622
01:09:11,814 --> 01:09:12,874
but she can.
1623
01:09:12,875 --> 01:09:14,733
She is Batgirl
for heaven's sakes.
1624
01:09:14,734 --> 01:09:18,195
When you have somebody
who's speaking that loudly,
1625
01:09:18,196 --> 01:09:21,776
advocating that loudly
on behalf of a cause,
1626
01:09:21,783 --> 01:09:23,909
something is going to get done.
1627
01:09:23,910 --> 01:09:26,789
It incited this bubbling
movement, you know,
1628
01:09:26,790 --> 01:09:28,328
where suddenly
you started hearing
1629
01:09:28,331 --> 01:09:29,871
more and more about Bill Finger.
1630
01:09:29,874 --> 01:09:31,462
He had no Batman of his own,
1631
01:09:31,463 --> 01:09:33,289
but I think you are
Bill Finger's Batman,
1632
01:09:33,294 --> 01:09:34,461
for heaven's sakes.
1633
01:09:34,462 --> 01:09:36,342
You're the one that's
going to find him justice.
1634
01:09:37,095 --> 01:09:38,670
I kept talking
about raising an army
1635
01:09:38,674 --> 01:09:39,966
and groundswell of support,
1636
01:09:39,967 --> 01:09:41,776
but I never actually
stopped to think about,
1637
01:09:41,777 --> 01:09:42,957
"Well, those are people too."
1638
01:09:43,062 --> 01:09:45,600
So that did start to really
become my driving force
1639
01:09:45,601 --> 01:09:47,977
was I can't let
all these people down.
1640
01:09:47,978 --> 01:09:50,475
So I was doing some
groundwork on one level,
1641
01:09:50,478 --> 01:09:52,008
but we needed
something else to happen
1642
01:09:52,013 --> 01:09:53,188
on another level.
1643
01:09:55,983 --> 01:09:57,073
It had been a year
1644
01:09:57,074 --> 01:10:00,318
since Marc Nobleman's
book had been out.
1645
01:10:00,321 --> 01:10:02,991
So more people were
starting to contact me,
1646
01:10:02,992 --> 01:10:05,830
"Are you really
Bill's granddaughter?"
1647
01:10:20,049 --> 01:10:22,549
And this is her
first convention ever.
1648
01:10:24,011 --> 01:10:25,721
I brought Athena
into the conventions.
1649
01:10:25,722 --> 01:10:27,912
Whether we're talking about
a Wizard World convention,
1650
01:10:27,913 --> 01:10:31,017
or San Diego,
or the New York Comic Con,
1651
01:10:31,018 --> 01:10:32,848
I brought her into
a number that year,
1652
01:10:32,854 --> 01:10:35,522
to meet the fans
and to get her out
1653
01:10:35,523 --> 01:10:38,859
from those curtains that
she was staying behind,
1654
01:10:38,860 --> 01:10:40,694
to meet other people.
1655
01:10:40,695 --> 01:10:44,025
I had never been to a
formal convention before,
1656
01:10:44,031 --> 01:10:45,071
any of that stuff.
1657
01:10:45,074 --> 01:10:47,703
So I did my first panel,
I was so nervous.
1658
01:10:47,704 --> 01:10:50,331
I'm like, "I don't even know
what we're talking about."
1659
01:10:50,332 --> 01:10:52,708
The fans would ask her
questions and she would say,
1660
01:10:52,709 --> 01:10:54,707
"I'm learning about
these things from you."
1661
01:10:54,709 --> 01:10:57,959
She was learning things
about her grandfather
1662
01:10:57,962 --> 01:11:00,714
and the legacy and
exactly what Bill did
1663
01:11:00,715 --> 01:11:03,795
from all of us
because she'd grown up
1664
01:11:03,801 --> 01:11:06,051
with it being this thing
to be uncomfortable about.
1665
01:11:06,053 --> 01:11:08,680
Was it not just this wonderful
thing to tell everybody,
1666
01:11:08,681 --> 01:11:10,471
"Hey, my granddad was
one of the co-creators
1667
01:11:10,472 --> 01:11:12,026
"of Batman," when
you were growing up?
1668
01:11:12,034 --> 01:11:14,004
Well, you would think
it would be a great thing,
1669
01:11:14,005 --> 01:11:16,475
but, um, growing up,
no, it wasn't.
1670
01:11:16,481 --> 01:11:19,231
I shied away from
talking about it.
1671
01:11:19,233 --> 01:11:20,233
As I got older...
1672
01:11:20,234 --> 01:11:22,991
She's not eager to talk
to the crowd herself,
1673
01:11:22,992 --> 01:11:24,946
she's eager to get
the information out,
1674
01:11:24,947 --> 01:11:26,367
so she's doing it anyway.
1675
01:11:26,368 --> 01:11:28,575
And I think that's a bit heroic.
1676
01:11:28,576 --> 01:11:30,366
Part of Athena's
grieving process
1677
01:11:30,369 --> 01:11:32,119
is going to Comic
Con and talking
1678
01:11:32,121 --> 01:11:36,416
about her grandfather
and her father.
1679
01:11:36,417 --> 01:11:39,085
It's wonderful to see.
1680
01:11:39,086 --> 01:11:41,755
And he would be
right there with her
1681
01:11:41,756 --> 01:11:45,006
because it was something
Fred wanted for his father.
1682
01:11:45,009 --> 01:11:46,049
- Okay.
- There we go.
1683
01:11:46,052 --> 01:11:49,679
There was so much
support from people.
1684
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:52,680
They really, really
wanted to see Bill's name
1685
01:11:52,683 --> 01:11:55,103
attached to Batman,
as it should be.
1686
01:11:55,104 --> 01:11:57,941
Comic book fans, their
fights are on the page.
1687
01:11:57,942 --> 01:12:00,609
They don't bring it into
the real world or anything.
1688
01:12:00,610 --> 01:12:03,358
But the fights that
they do get involved in,
1689
01:12:03,361 --> 01:12:04,778
it's not fisticuffs,
1690
01:12:04,779 --> 01:12:06,069
it's battles for what is right.
1691
01:12:06,072 --> 01:12:07,072
And how could they not?
1692
01:12:07,073 --> 01:12:08,583
Because the characters
they read about
1693
01:12:08,584 --> 01:12:10,120
all the time do the same thing.
1694
01:12:10,121 --> 01:12:12,077
Those are your role
models on the page.
1695
01:12:12,078 --> 01:12:14,287
So while Bill
didn't train people
1696
01:12:14,288 --> 01:12:16,456
to fight for him
after he was dead,
1697
01:12:16,457 --> 01:12:17,887
you have a bunch
of people who read
1698
01:12:17,892 --> 01:12:19,842
and were influenced by
the work of Bill Finger,
1699
01:12:19,843 --> 01:12:23,755
like this is what's right,
this is what's just.
1700
01:12:23,756 --> 01:12:27,006
So that's really where I
got a lot of pressure from,
1701
01:12:27,009 --> 01:12:28,009
was from the fans.
1702
01:12:28,010 --> 01:12:29,179
"Why isn't this happening?"
1703
01:12:29,180 --> 01:12:30,637
Why isn't his name attached?
1704
01:12:30,638 --> 01:12:31,888
What's happening?
1705
01:12:31,889 --> 01:12:33,308
Why... what, what, what?
1706
01:12:33,309 --> 01:12:34,427
Tell me, tell me, tell me.
1707
01:12:34,433 --> 01:12:35,475
How, how, how?
1708
01:12:35,476 --> 01:12:36,636
"Do, do, do."
1709
01:12:36,644 --> 01:12:38,854
And so I knew that
1710
01:12:38,855 --> 01:12:41,645
something was going
to come out of it.
1711
01:12:41,649 --> 01:12:46,149
In 2014, WonderCon was
held in Anaheim, California,
1712
01:12:46,153 --> 01:12:48,989
and there was this Batman panel.
1713
01:12:48,990 --> 01:12:52,617
And an audience member
gets up to the microphone
1714
01:12:52,618 --> 01:12:54,368
and asks this question about,
1715
01:12:54,370 --> 01:12:56,160
"Will Bill Finger get credit?"
1716
01:12:56,163 --> 01:12:58,623
And there's just
silence up there.
1717
01:12:58,624 --> 01:13:01,004
One member of the
panel says, "Crickets."
1718
01:13:01,005 --> 01:13:05,088
And a person working for DC,
1719
01:13:05,089 --> 01:13:06,506
Larry Ganem,
1720
01:13:06,507 --> 01:13:08,757
gets up and he says that,
1721
01:13:08,759 --> 01:13:12,345
"We're all good with
Finger and his family."
1722
01:13:12,346 --> 01:13:17,016
And that was when, "Okay,
we've got to reply to this."
1723
01:13:17,018 --> 01:13:19,688
Athena and I put
the statement together that,
1724
01:13:19,689 --> 01:13:24,816
"No, things are not all good
with the Finger family."
1725
01:13:24,817 --> 01:13:26,857
Timing is everything.
1726
01:13:26,861 --> 01:13:29,696
75th anniversary
of Batman's coming up,
1727
01:13:29,697 --> 01:13:31,697
it was the hundred
year anniversary
1728
01:13:31,699 --> 01:13:33,529
of my grandfather's birth,
1729
01:13:33,534 --> 01:13:36,703
it was the 25th
anniversary of the '89 movie.
1730
01:13:36,704 --> 01:13:40,665
Like all this stuff was
coming together in 2014.
1731
01:13:40,666 --> 01:13:43,496
I called Athena
and we had a huge cry
1732
01:13:43,502 --> 01:13:45,670
over Fred being gone.
1733
01:13:45,671 --> 01:13:48,381
And then we discussed it.
1734
01:13:48,382 --> 01:13:50,512
Maybe it's time that Bill Finger
1735
01:13:50,513 --> 01:13:53,469
got the recognition he deserved.
1736
01:13:53,471 --> 01:13:58,725
And that's when
it became a fight.
1737
01:13:58,726 --> 01:14:01,436
I felt that the
timing was right.
1738
01:14:01,437 --> 01:14:04,437
I knew it was
either now or never.
1739
01:14:04,440 --> 01:14:07,734
And I think I
called my sister first.
1740
01:14:07,735 --> 01:14:10,395
We have different fathers,
she's older than I am.
1741
01:14:10,404 --> 01:14:13,374
She felt like it was
really a burden in her life
1742
01:14:13,375 --> 01:14:17,494
to have inherited this
controversy, basically.
1743
01:14:17,495 --> 01:14:19,615
Knowing that I was the
only one that could do it
1744
01:14:19,622 --> 01:14:20,752
was a huge burden.
1745
01:14:20,753 --> 01:14:24,668
So it really... I wanted
to get it finished
1746
01:14:24,669 --> 01:14:27,087
knowing that I
only had one chance.
1747
01:14:27,088 --> 01:14:30,674
Being an attorney, I... I was able
1748
01:14:30,675 --> 01:14:34,175
to assess what resources
we had and didn't have.
1749
01:14:34,178 --> 01:14:37,638
So she contacted me
because she was seeking
1750
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:40,475
a copyright attorney to help her
1751
01:14:40,476 --> 01:14:43,226
with the situation.
1752
01:14:43,229 --> 01:14:45,309
The copyright law says
1753
01:14:45,314 --> 01:14:49,609
that when two people
create parts of something
1754
01:14:49,610 --> 01:14:51,987
that are intended to be merged
1755
01:14:51,988 --> 01:14:54,488
into an inseparable work,
1756
01:14:54,490 --> 01:14:56,157
then it's a joint work
1757
01:14:56,158 --> 01:14:59,658
and each of them is a co-owner.
1758
01:14:59,662 --> 01:15:04,791
So coming into this, one of
the most commonly cited facts
1759
01:15:04,792 --> 01:15:07,460
of Batman lore is that Bob Kane
1760
01:15:07,461 --> 01:15:09,671
negotiated a contract
in which he would be
1761
01:15:09,672 --> 01:15:12,132
the sole creator
in perpetuity of Batman,
1762
01:15:12,133 --> 01:15:14,889
he would be the only
name listed as creator.
1763
01:15:14,890 --> 01:15:17,345
The only thing I've always
gotten from the people
1764
01:15:17,346 --> 01:15:19,216
that I have talked to at DC is,
1765
01:15:19,223 --> 01:15:21,061
"We know what
your grandfather did,"
1766
01:15:21,062 --> 01:15:22,937
we wish we could
put his name on it,
1767
01:15:22,938 --> 01:15:25,935
"but we can't because of
the contracts that we have."
1768
01:15:25,938 --> 01:15:28,648
This infamous Bob Kane contract
1769
01:15:28,649 --> 01:15:30,689
has never been
publicly disclosed,
1770
01:15:30,693 --> 01:15:32,360
as expected.
1771
01:15:32,361 --> 01:15:34,490
I mean, these are big
characters, big companies,
1772
01:15:34,491 --> 01:15:36,278
they have no obligation so share
1773
01:15:36,282 --> 01:15:39,367
all of their contents
of their vault.
1774
01:15:39,368 --> 01:15:42,408
If any company had an agreement
1775
01:15:42,413 --> 01:15:44,923
that clearly spelled
out their rights
1776
01:15:44,924 --> 01:15:48,084
and that shut down
a copyright claim,
1777
01:15:48,085 --> 01:15:51,755
it seems to me that
they would produce that.
1778
01:15:51,756 --> 01:15:53,586
I don't know why you wouldn't.
1779
01:15:53,591 --> 01:15:55,471
It might be hearsay,
it might be a myth
1780
01:15:55,472 --> 01:15:58,968
that DC Comics is perpetuating
1781
01:15:58,971 --> 01:16:01,097
because it helps them.
1782
01:16:01,098 --> 01:16:02,348
Or it might be real
1783
01:16:02,349 --> 01:16:05,977
and the original source was Bob.
1784
01:16:05,978 --> 01:16:07,857
That is another
interesting thing
1785
01:16:07,858 --> 01:16:10,355
about the copyright law
that was in play here.
1786
01:16:10,357 --> 01:16:11,647
Somebody is simply claiming
1787
01:16:11,650 --> 01:16:13,860
that they are the sole
author when they're not,
1788
01:16:13,861 --> 01:16:15,861
that's not really...
That doesn't really do it.
1789
01:16:15,863 --> 01:16:20,033
So then you look at what
did Bill Finger contribute?
1790
01:16:20,034 --> 01:16:22,702
Did that make him a joint author
1791
01:16:22,703 --> 01:16:24,829
or joint owner of the work?
1792
01:16:24,830 --> 01:16:27,710
Marc Tyler Nobleman
sort of taking this case on,
1793
01:16:27,711 --> 01:16:30,126
delving into the research,
1794
01:16:30,127 --> 01:16:31,586
and then, of course, Bob Kane,
1795
01:16:31,587 --> 01:16:32,957
you know, eventually
kind of helped
1796
01:16:32,958 --> 01:16:35,785
by talking about Bill's
contribution himself.
1797
01:16:43,724 --> 01:16:47,060
Um, that was very important.
1798
01:16:47,061 --> 01:16:48,561
If poor Athena,
like, had to start
1799
01:16:48,562 --> 01:16:50,232
with that threshold issue,
1800
01:16:50,233 --> 01:16:52,651
that just would have been
really, really difficult.
1801
01:16:52,652 --> 01:16:56,236
I mean, this is a huge
entertainment company
1802
01:16:56,237 --> 01:16:59,567
with an entire department
of, you know, attorneys.
1803
01:16:59,573 --> 01:17:01,953
And then there's,
you know, Athena Finger.
1804
01:17:05,246 --> 01:17:08,206
Sadly, for people
who are creating stories
1805
01:17:08,207 --> 01:17:10,457
about superheroes
who are selfless
1806
01:17:10,459 --> 01:17:12,168
and saving people's lives,
1807
01:17:12,169 --> 01:17:14,669
there's not a whole lot
1808
01:17:14,672 --> 01:17:16,512
of generosity going on here.
1809
01:17:16,513 --> 01:17:20,337
You've got creators fighting
a company over a character.
1810
01:17:20,344 --> 01:17:24,597
And, you know, it's a classic
David and Goliath story.
1811
01:17:24,598 --> 01:17:28,434
And in these cases, usually
the underdog doesn't win.
1812
01:17:28,435 --> 01:17:31,805
As teenagers in
Cleveland in 1933,
1813
01:17:31,814 --> 01:17:33,523
these two boys
signed a piece of paper
1814
01:17:33,524 --> 01:17:35,530
that, in effect,
sold their rights,
1815
01:17:35,531 --> 01:17:37,106
and they sold them for $130.
1816
01:17:37,111 --> 01:17:38,570
Well, they were just kids
1817
01:17:38,571 --> 01:17:40,611
and they were so anxious
to get published,
1818
01:17:40,614 --> 01:17:42,124
so anxious for recognition,
1819
01:17:42,125 --> 01:17:44,784
that they signed away
their copyright.
1820
01:17:44,785 --> 01:17:46,655
Superman became what Superman is
1821
01:17:46,662 --> 01:17:50,622
because of DC building Superman
1822
01:17:50,624 --> 01:17:52,750
to the industry that it is.
1823
01:17:52,751 --> 01:17:54,794
But still, Siegel and Shuster
1824
01:17:54,795 --> 01:17:57,255
deserved a lot
more than they got.
1825
01:17:57,256 --> 01:18:00,626
You know, they made
a couple of efforts
1826
01:18:00,634 --> 01:18:03,845
to get greater credit.
1827
01:18:03,846 --> 01:18:05,676
In their 1947 suit,
1828
01:18:05,681 --> 01:18:09,021
Siegel and Shuster did not
get ownership of Superman.
1829
01:18:09,022 --> 01:18:11,768
They did get $94,000 more,
1830
01:18:11,770 --> 01:18:13,229
but National Periodical
1831
01:18:13,230 --> 01:18:15,730
then owned Superman and Superboy
1832
01:18:15,733 --> 01:18:17,942
and fired Siegel and Shuster.
1833
01:18:17,943 --> 01:18:19,033
The creators of Superman
1834
01:18:19,034 --> 01:18:23,818
first sued over credit in 1947.
1835
01:18:23,824 --> 01:18:27,368
They were still working
for the company at the time.
1836
01:18:27,369 --> 01:18:30,499
So they lost the lawsuit,
they lost their jobs,
1837
01:18:30,500 --> 01:18:33,166
and the company
that became DC Comics
1838
01:18:33,167 --> 01:18:34,917
took their name off Superman.
1839
01:18:34,919 --> 01:18:37,629
In 1963, Siegel and Shuster
1840
01:18:37,630 --> 01:18:39,170
started another suit,
1841
01:18:39,173 --> 01:18:40,933
this one to win
back the copyright
1842
01:18:40,934 --> 01:18:44,175
when it came up
for renewal in 1966.
1843
01:18:44,178 --> 01:18:45,348
The court finding,
1844
01:18:45,349 --> 01:18:48,676
"Superman belongs to
National Periodical."
1845
01:18:48,682 --> 01:18:52,018
Long story short
is Superman has been
1846
01:18:52,019 --> 01:18:54,559
the subject of litigation
almost from the beginning,
1847
01:18:54,563 --> 01:18:58,024
and it's been going on
for decades at this point.
1848
01:18:58,025 --> 01:19:00,605
And most of the major
players are gone,
1849
01:19:00,611 --> 01:19:04,197
so it's passed on to
the second generation.
1850
01:19:04,198 --> 01:19:06,778
When you're dealing
with something so big,
1851
01:19:06,784 --> 01:19:08,334
the stakes are
big on either side
1852
01:19:08,335 --> 01:19:10,495
of a challenge, of a contest.
1853
01:19:10,496 --> 01:19:13,036
And, you know,
the Superman situation
1854
01:19:13,040 --> 01:19:14,920
would not have instilled
a lot of confidence
1855
01:19:14,921 --> 01:19:17,167
that you can win.
1856
01:19:17,169 --> 01:19:20,919
To push this type
of a claim further,
1857
01:19:20,923 --> 01:19:24,550
you have to have the means
1858
01:19:24,551 --> 01:19:27,387
and, frankly,
the money to do it.
1859
01:19:27,388 --> 01:19:30,388
And no single person, really,
1860
01:19:30,391 --> 01:19:33,231
even if you had
multi-millions in the bank,
1861
01:19:33,232 --> 01:19:35,895
would want to go
through that risk.
1862
01:19:35,896 --> 01:19:38,476
We would have been
possibly investing
1863
01:19:38,482 --> 01:19:40,566
five to ten years of our life
1864
01:19:40,567 --> 01:19:42,026
entering into a litigation
1865
01:19:42,027 --> 01:19:45,777
against a multi-national
corporation.
1866
01:19:45,781 --> 01:19:49,741
Frankly, it was my strategy
to not go down that road,
1867
01:19:49,743 --> 01:19:53,079
but to, of course, make
it appear that we would.
1868
01:19:54,141 --> 01:19:56,249
We're going back so far in time.
1869
01:19:56,250 --> 01:19:59,710
If we're going to assume
that all of these things
1870
01:19:59,712 --> 01:20:02,505
that people said in
the press were true
1871
01:20:02,506 --> 01:20:05,256
about Bill Finger and
about his contribution
1872
01:20:05,259 --> 01:20:06,889
and the way it went down,
1873
01:20:06,890 --> 01:20:12,135
then they each own half
of Batman as a whole.
1874
01:20:12,141 --> 01:20:15,101
There could be an argument
from the corporation's side
1875
01:20:15,102 --> 01:20:19,397
that it's not a joint work
because he was employee.
1876
01:20:19,398 --> 01:20:22,025
I've never heard of any document
1877
01:20:22,026 --> 01:20:23,896
that said that he was.
1878
01:20:23,902 --> 01:20:26,072
I never heard of
a document that said
1879
01:20:26,073 --> 01:20:28,656
he was working under
a work for hire.
1880
01:20:28,657 --> 01:20:30,447
So, here's step one and step two
1881
01:20:30,451 --> 01:20:31,591
and step three and step four
1882
01:20:31,593 --> 01:20:34,329
and all this leads
to, hypothetically,
1883
01:20:34,330 --> 01:20:36,247
yeah, you take it back.
1884
01:20:36,248 --> 01:20:38,288
That's the leverage
of the copyright law,
1885
01:20:38,292 --> 01:20:40,589
to actually allow
people to take it back
1886
01:20:40,590 --> 01:20:42,756
or to put that large corporation
1887
01:20:42,757 --> 01:20:45,295
in the position of
having to renegotiate
1888
01:20:45,299 --> 01:20:48,299
their royalties
or whatever it is.
1889
01:20:48,302 --> 01:20:50,722
I do believe that there
was risk on both sides
1890
01:20:50,723 --> 01:20:55,516
and we had highlighted
enough of that risk
1891
01:20:55,517 --> 01:20:57,807
to get them to talk to us,
1892
01:20:57,811 --> 01:20:59,561
and that was the goal.
1893
01:21:01,815 --> 01:21:03,145
I didn't imagine that I would
1894
01:21:03,150 --> 01:21:05,610
actually be at
the final meeting,
1895
01:21:05,611 --> 01:21:07,611
but it took place in July,
1896
01:21:07,613 --> 01:21:10,073
it was closed door negotiations,
1897
01:21:10,074 --> 01:21:14,577
and it was a big deal on
so many different levels.
1898
01:21:15,579 --> 01:21:17,579
Somebody has a goal and
somebody else has a goal
1899
01:21:17,581 --> 01:21:19,248
and how do you negotiate
1900
01:21:19,249 --> 01:21:20,919
and maybe not
make everybody happy,
1901
01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:24,128
but make everyone
not horribly miserable.
1902
01:21:24,129 --> 01:21:25,409
I don't know if they could tell,
1903
01:21:25,414 --> 01:21:28,007
but I was very nervous.
1904
01:21:28,008 --> 01:21:29,678
We really wanted to get credit,
1905
01:21:29,679 --> 01:21:33,136
but we didn't know which
way this was going to go,
1906
01:21:33,138 --> 01:21:34,514
we really didn't.
1907
01:21:38,143 --> 01:21:40,252
There came a point where
I wasn't leading the charge
1908
01:21:40,253 --> 01:21:41,650
anymore because I'm not family,
1909
01:21:41,651 --> 01:21:44,857
and there's only so far I
can go without being family.
1910
01:21:44,858 --> 01:21:47,068
Hey, Raf-bear.
1911
01:21:47,069 --> 01:21:48,397
- Good to see you, boy.
- Hello.
1912
01:21:48,398 --> 01:21:49,854
- How's my favorite fuzzball?
- Good.
1913
01:21:49,855 --> 01:21:50,855
Yeah?
1914
01:21:50,856 --> 01:21:53,156
So in the summer of 2015,
1915
01:21:53,158 --> 01:21:54,367
everything was building.
1916
01:21:54,368 --> 01:21:55,368
I could feel it.
1917
01:21:55,369 --> 01:21:57,328
And in September,
1918
01:21:57,329 --> 01:22:00,209
it felt like we were getting
to that tipping point.
1919
01:22:01,917 --> 01:22:05,336
It was September
18th, it was a Friday.
1920
01:22:05,337 --> 01:22:06,627
I travel a lot,
1921
01:22:06,630 --> 01:22:08,010
but I happened to
be home that day,
1922
01:22:08,014 --> 01:22:09,590
In fact, I was home alone.
1923
01:22:09,591 --> 01:22:13,177
And by chance I had
this set of things
1924
01:22:13,178 --> 01:22:15,888
I had to do for the day,
and, very atypically,
1925
01:22:15,889 --> 01:22:19,225
I finished it
pretty much before noon.
1926
01:22:19,226 --> 01:22:21,306
And the tweets and the emails
1927
01:22:21,311 --> 01:22:23,111
and the blog posts
and the Facebook posts
1928
01:22:23,112 --> 01:22:24,435
started to pour in.
1929
01:22:24,440 --> 01:22:25,940
And I had a couple
hours to myself
1930
01:22:25,941 --> 01:22:29,527
where I was just
catatonic almost.
1931
01:22:29,528 --> 01:22:31,908
The first person in
my family to come home
1932
01:22:31,909 --> 01:22:33,364
was my daughter.
1933
01:22:34,908 --> 01:22:36,408
Did you see it?
1934
01:22:36,410 --> 01:22:38,160
Yeah!
1935
01:22:38,162 --> 01:22:39,495
What did it say?
1936
01:22:39,496 --> 01:22:41,996
"DC to give Bill
Finger official credit
1937
01:22:41,999 --> 01:22:46,249
on 'Batman'" versus, I think,
"'Superman' and 'Gotham'"?
1938
01:22:46,253 --> 01:22:47,420
Mm-hm.
1939
01:22:47,421 --> 01:22:49,261
They're giving him the credit?
1940
01:22:49,262 --> 01:22:51,376
They're giving him credit now.
1941
01:22:51,383 --> 01:22:52,925
What?
1942
01:22:52,926 --> 01:22:53,966
What?
1943
01:22:55,262 --> 01:22:57,680
How did you do that?
1944
01:22:57,681 --> 01:22:59,599
How did you do that?
1945
01:22:59,600 --> 01:23:01,979
"You did it, Marc, you got
justice for Bill Finger"
1946
01:23:01,980 --> 01:23:03,557
and righted a lifetime wrong!
1947
01:23:03,562 --> 01:23:05,062
"You are Batman for Bill!"
1948
01:23:05,063 --> 01:23:06,481
That's Kevin Smith.
1949
01:23:06,482 --> 01:23:08,652
There's quite a big difference
between me and Batman,
1950
01:23:08,653 --> 01:23:10,779
but I'll accept that
as a nice compliment.
1951
01:23:10,780 --> 01:23:12,906
"Bill Finger getting
his justice."
1952
01:23:12,907 --> 01:23:14,445
That's from Kevin Conroy,
1953
01:23:14,448 --> 01:23:15,988
who was the voice of Batman
1954
01:23:15,991 --> 01:23:18,788
since the beginning of
Batman: The Animated Series.
1955
01:23:18,789 --> 01:23:21,285
"On my honeymoon
in Mexico from Ireland."
1956
01:23:21,288 --> 01:23:22,408
Just saw the news.
1957
01:23:22,414 --> 01:23:25,041
"Thrilled for you, Bill,
and the Finger family."
1958
01:23:25,042 --> 01:23:27,032
But I'm pretty sure one
person who wasn't thrilled
1959
01:23:27,033 --> 01:23:29,167
was his new bride,
1960
01:23:29,171 --> 01:23:31,380
whose new husband is
tweeting about Batman
1961
01:23:31,381 --> 01:23:32,798
on his honeymoon.
1962
01:23:32,799 --> 01:23:35,259
But thank you very much, Burke.
1963
01:23:35,260 --> 01:23:37,720
"DC Entertainment and
the family of Bill Finger"
1964
01:23:37,721 --> 01:23:38,739
are pleased to announce
1965
01:23:38,740 --> 01:23:40,169
that they have
reached an agreement
1966
01:23:40,173 --> 01:23:43,353
that recognizes Mr. Finger's
significant contributions
1967
01:23:43,354 --> 01:23:45,602
to the Batman
family of characters.
1968
01:23:45,604 --> 01:23:47,023
We are pleased to confirm today
1969
01:23:47,024 --> 01:23:49,401
that Bill Finger will
be receiving credit
1970
01:23:49,402 --> 01:23:52,028
in the Warner Brothers
television series 'Gotham'
1971
01:23:52,029 --> 01:23:54,317
and in the forthcoming
motion picture,
1972
01:23:54,321 --> 01:23:57,781
"'Batman v Superman:
Dawn of Justice.'"
1973
01:24:01,286 --> 01:24:03,866
Our goal was to get
Bill's name attached.
1974
01:24:03,872 --> 01:24:06,082
That's what we did.
1975
01:24:06,083 --> 01:24:07,833
We changed history.
1976
01:24:11,338 --> 01:24:14,008
But in 25 years of
writing Batman comics,
1977
01:24:14,009 --> 01:24:16,007
1,500 stories in all,
1978
01:24:16,009 --> 01:24:18,049
including the first one,
1979
01:24:18,053 --> 01:24:20,350
Bill's name appeared
in a Batman comic
1980
01:24:20,351 --> 01:24:23,057
as the co-creator,
or the original writer,
1981
01:24:23,058 --> 01:24:26,894
exactly zero times.
1982
01:24:26,895 --> 01:24:28,015
Because Bob Kane said...
1983
01:24:28,021 --> 01:24:30,439
I have often asked myself,
1984
01:24:30,440 --> 01:24:34,190
"Why has he been doing
this for all these years?"
1985
01:24:34,194 --> 01:24:39,740
And I do believe he's
just passionate about it.
1986
01:24:39,741 --> 01:24:43,995
He does believe in the
causes that he writes about.
1987
01:24:43,996 --> 01:24:46,746
You're probably wondering
if I found any photos
1988
01:24:46,748 --> 01:24:48,788
of Bill Finger in the backyard
1989
01:24:48,792 --> 01:24:51,377
mowing the lawn
with his shirt off.
1990
01:24:51,378 --> 01:24:54,458
And the answer is
yes, yes, I did.
1991
01:24:56,174 --> 01:24:57,967
You're welcome, ladies.
1992
01:24:57,968 --> 01:24:59,968
The driving force though, still,
1993
01:24:59,970 --> 01:25:01,637
is to right a wrong
1994
01:25:01,638 --> 01:25:04,056
and to try to stay
on that good side.
1995
01:25:04,057 --> 01:25:06,066
So you can't see Bill
too well from where you are,
1996
01:25:06,067 --> 01:25:07,357
but he's there in the shadows.
1997
01:25:07,360 --> 01:25:09,895
Marc always strives for equality
1998
01:25:09,896 --> 01:25:12,315
and it's really his whole being,
1999
01:25:12,316 --> 01:25:13,566
I mean, that's him.
2000
01:25:13,567 --> 01:25:15,857
He's very brave,
he's a very brave person.
2001
01:25:15,861 --> 01:25:18,740
He really... if he thinks
that something is not fair,
2002
01:25:18,741 --> 01:25:19,908
he will go for it.
2003
01:25:19,909 --> 01:25:23,036
So I think that this is
not the end, to be honest.
2004
01:25:23,037 --> 01:25:24,405
There's always
more to the story.
2005
01:25:24,411 --> 01:25:26,249
I mean, what I always
say is that no story
2006
01:25:26,250 --> 01:25:28,076
from history ends in a period.
2007
01:25:28,081 --> 01:25:29,707
They all end in a dot, dot, dot.
2008
01:25:29,708 --> 01:25:30,988
We're just waiting for someone
2009
01:25:30,992 --> 01:25:32,542
to find the next part.
2010
01:25:41,762 --> 01:25:43,602
Do you want to do
lashes as well?
2011
01:25:43,603 --> 01:25:45,597
- Sure.
- Yeah?
2012
01:25:45,599 --> 01:25:47,599
Again, I'm going to be
on film and stuff,
2013
01:25:47,601 --> 01:25:49,091
- so I want to...
- Yeah, we can add
2014
01:25:49,092 --> 01:25:51,095
- the lashes if you like.
- Okay.
2015
01:25:51,104 --> 01:25:53,731
So what are you
guys filming for?
2016
01:25:53,732 --> 01:25:56,984
It's a documentary
about my grandfather.
2017
01:25:56,985 --> 01:25:59,275
He was the original writer
2018
01:25:59,279 --> 01:26:00,988
and co-creator of Batman.
2019
01:26:00,989 --> 01:26:02,369
- No kidding.
- Mm-hm.
2020
01:26:02,370 --> 01:26:03,446
That is awesome.
2021
01:26:14,127 --> 01:26:15,795
I don't have black socks.
2022
01:26:27,057 --> 01:26:28,597
Almost there.
2023
01:26:35,565 --> 01:26:36,745
All right, Alethia, tell me,
2024
01:26:36,750 --> 01:26:38,440
is it okay with the leather?
2025
01:26:49,037 --> 01:26:51,664
This is my tenth
Batman premiere,
2026
01:26:51,665 --> 01:26:53,995
but it's very special
because this is the first time
2027
01:26:54,000 --> 01:26:56,210
that Bill Finger is
getting onscreen credit
2028
01:26:56,211 --> 01:26:57,920
in a major motion picture
2029
01:26:57,921 --> 01:27:00,131
for his co-creation of Batman.
2030
01:27:00,132 --> 01:27:02,470
And that's very,
very exciting to me.
2031
01:27:02,471 --> 01:27:04,757
It's amazing that
so many years later,
2032
01:27:04,761 --> 01:27:07,471
we are now en route
with his granddaughters
2033
01:27:07,472 --> 01:27:10,099
and great-grandson
going to a premiere
2034
01:27:10,100 --> 01:27:12,940
in which his name finally is
going to be up on the screen.
2035
01:27:12,941 --> 01:27:14,766
I'm very excited.
2036
01:27:18,400 --> 01:27:21,694
It was a curse in our lives.
2037
01:27:21,695 --> 01:27:24,864
Bill was unknown, unrespected.
2038
01:27:24,865 --> 01:27:27,324
My dad was in the same position.
2039
01:27:27,325 --> 01:27:31,035
I was trying to cope
with my father's death.
2040
01:27:31,037 --> 01:27:32,827
I'm hoping that I've broken that
2041
01:27:32,831 --> 01:27:35,081
by getting the closure for Bill,
2042
01:27:35,083 --> 01:27:38,544
for myself, and for my son,
2043
01:27:38,545 --> 01:27:40,045
so that we can move forward
2044
01:27:40,046 --> 01:27:44,086
and not have this dark cloud
2045
01:27:44,092 --> 01:27:45,926
following us around.
2046
01:27:51,224 --> 01:27:53,694
It's been ten years that
I've been telling this story,
2047
01:27:53,695 --> 01:27:56,725
and to hear that Bill
died and was buried
2048
01:27:56,730 --> 01:27:58,730
in a pauper's grave,
in a potter's field,
2049
01:27:58,732 --> 01:28:00,065
was devastating,
2050
01:28:00,066 --> 01:28:02,436
and that was the only
story that anybody knew.
2051
01:28:04,738 --> 01:28:09,448
Until I found two people
who both knew Fred,
2052
01:28:09,451 --> 01:28:10,741
Bill's son,
2053
01:28:10,744 --> 01:28:12,953
and who both told me
a different story.
2054
01:28:16,792 --> 01:28:18,630
So what these two people said
2055
01:28:18,631 --> 01:28:20,877
was that Fred did come
forward after Bill died
2056
01:28:20,879 --> 01:28:22,879
and just... he was not
there the day that he died,
2057
01:28:22,881 --> 01:28:24,121
which is why he doesn't appear
2058
01:28:24,124 --> 01:28:26,967
in the medical examiner report.
2059
01:28:26,968 --> 01:28:28,548
Fred had his father cremated,
2060
01:28:28,553 --> 01:28:31,013
and he was living
in Oregon at the time.
2061
01:28:32,474 --> 01:28:34,944
And he took the ashes
to the shoreline
2062
01:28:34,945 --> 01:28:36,894
near where he lived.
2063
01:28:37,979 --> 01:28:40,064
Spread them on the sand
2064
01:28:40,065 --> 01:28:42,435
in the shape of a bat.
2065
01:28:44,945 --> 01:28:48,405
And let the water come in
and wash it out to sea.
2066
01:29:07,342 --> 01:29:08,592
Have fun.
2067
01:29:12,055 --> 01:29:15,474
Uh, one "Batman
v Superman" please?156364
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