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His name has becomesynonymous with terror.
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In California, five members
of a so-called religious cult,
3
00:00:18,430 --> 00:00:23,590
including Charles Manson,
their guru or high priest,
4
00:00:23,750 --> 00:00:27,350
have been indicted in the murder
of Sharon Tate and six others.
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00:00:27,510 --> 00:00:30,350
His sadistic murdershocked the world.
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00:00:30,510 --> 00:00:32,230
Charles Manson was charged with
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00:00:32,390 --> 00:00:34,510
controllingand directing the killers.
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I don't have any guilt.
I knew what I'd done.
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00:00:38,590 --> 00:00:43,910
And now, 50 years later,he remains the face of evil.
10
00:00:44,070 --> 00:00:45,390
Helter Skelter.
11
00:00:48,750 --> 00:00:54,070
From behind bars, he seeks outhis final victim, his own family.
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00:00:54,230 --> 00:00:59,470
You've got a prepaid call froman inmate at the CSP State Prison.
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00:00:59,630 --> 00:01:02,350
Searching for closurefrom a criminal
14
00:01:02,510 --> 00:01:03,990
who shares the same blood.
15
00:01:04,150 --> 00:01:06,630
My grandfather is Charles Manson.
16
00:01:06,790 --> 00:01:10,510
I wish I could bring youinto what I'm doing.
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00:01:10,670 --> 00:01:13,510
It's hard to look back and know
where you come from.
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00:01:13,670 --> 00:01:15,670
I did not want my son around that.
19
00:01:15,830 --> 00:01:18,510
I didn't want him to think
that that was in him.
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Because that would have
been his bloodline.
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00:01:20,830 --> 00:01:22,990
What's going to happen to me?
Am I going to kill somebody?
22
00:01:23,150 --> 00:01:26,750
Is this in the family tree?
Is this in the genes? In the blood?
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00:01:26,910 --> 00:01:28,270
I want to face him face to face.
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I want to know the answers
because I'm sick of feeling lost.
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00:01:32,510 --> 00:01:35,390
No matter who he is,he's still family.
26
00:01:35,550 --> 00:01:38,710
Understanding meis understanding yourself.
27
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The reality is, it's me.
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There is nothing else.
29
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-You're my me.
-My me.
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00:02:00,070 --> 00:02:01,590
My me.
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That's yourselfall the way back to me.
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00:02:15,070 --> 00:02:16,830
I want to update
our breaking news right now.
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00:02:16,990 --> 00:02:20,230
Charles Manson, one of the most
notorious murder masterminds
34
00:02:20,390 --> 00:02:23,270
in US history
has died at the age of 83.
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00:02:23,430 --> 00:02:25,150
The California Department
of Corrections says
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00:02:25,310 --> 00:02:26,910
he died of natural causes on Sunday.
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00:02:27,070 --> 00:02:29,790
Manson was serving
nine consecutive life sentences
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00:02:29,950 --> 00:02:32,150
for murder
and conspiracy to commit murder
39
00:02:32,310 --> 00:02:35,390
for ordering a wave of killings
back in 1969.
40
00:02:36,470 --> 00:02:39,630
At 8:30 this morning,
William Chapman,
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00:02:39,790 --> 00:02:44,510
an employee came to work
at 10050 Cielo,
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00:02:44,670 --> 00:02:46,710
and found several bodies in the house
43
00:02:46,870 --> 00:02:48,910
and immediately
the police were notified.
44
00:02:49,070 --> 00:02:52,790
Friday night in Los Angeles, a movie
actress and four of her friends
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00:02:52,950 --> 00:02:56,230
were murdered in
circumstances were lurid.
46
00:02:56,390 --> 00:02:59,190
The movie actress
was Sharon Tate, 26.
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00:03:00,190 --> 00:03:01,830
The pregnant actresswho was married
48
00:03:01,990 --> 00:03:03,470
to the director Roman Polanski
49
00:03:03,630 --> 00:03:06,710
was brutally murderedalong with four of her friends.
50
00:03:08,390 --> 00:03:13,270
Charles Manson is the quintessential,
most notorious murderer ever.
51
00:03:13,430 --> 00:03:16,350
Helter Skelter was
the name of a Beatles song,
52
00:03:16,510 --> 00:03:20,870
but for Charles Manson it was
basically, you know, Armageddon.
53
00:03:21,030 --> 00:03:23,710
His interpretation was that
there was going to be a race war
54
00:03:23,870 --> 00:03:26,590
and it would be black against whites
55
00:03:26,750 --> 00:03:28,350
and the blacks would rise up
and defeat the whites,
56
00:03:28,510 --> 00:03:30,150
but they wouldn't be able
to run the world
57
00:03:30,310 --> 00:03:31,870
and Charlie would rise up
out of the desert
58
00:03:32,030 --> 00:03:33,870
and he would take over everything.
59
00:03:34,190 --> 00:03:35,870
A short time later, not too far away,
60
00:03:36,030 --> 00:03:40,110
a middle-aged couple was found
murdered in similar circumstances.
61
00:03:40,270 --> 00:03:42,710
The so-called Manson familykilled again,
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00:03:42,870 --> 00:03:45,830
tying up and murdering awealthy couple.
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00:03:45,990 --> 00:03:49,630
He wanted to show that the beautiful
rich people needed to be killed.
64
00:03:49,790 --> 00:03:51,630
He murdered two more people
65
00:03:51,790 --> 00:03:56,950
for a total of seven horrible,
mutilated stabbings and killings.
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00:03:57,110 --> 00:04:00,910
Los Angeles Police have connected
some members of a nomadic gang
67
00:04:01,070 --> 00:04:03,430
with the murders of actress
Sharon Tate and others.
68
00:04:04,710 --> 00:04:08,150
Sharon Tate was
eight and a half months pregnant
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00:04:08,310 --> 00:04:10,430
and she was just picked at random.
70
00:04:10,590 --> 00:04:14,870
Manson didn't know her. None
of the family members knew her.
71
00:04:15,030 --> 00:04:17,190
Sharon Tate begged for her life.
72
00:04:17,350 --> 00:04:20,110
She said, "Please don't kill me,
I just want to have my baby."
73
00:04:20,270 --> 00:04:24,710
And Susan Atkins said, "Look, bitch,
I don't care about you or your baby.
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00:04:24,870 --> 00:04:27,350
You're going to
die and you'd better be ready for it
75
00:04:27,510 --> 00:04:29,110
and I don't feel a thing about it."
76
00:04:30,390 --> 00:04:33,590
Susan Atkins dipped the towel
in Sharon Tate's blood,
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00:04:33,750 --> 00:04:36,670
and then wrote pig on the front door.
78
00:04:36,830 --> 00:04:41,030
Yeah,
it was definitely a gruesome scene.
79
00:04:42,270 --> 00:04:43,710
All of the elements are present for
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00:04:43,870 --> 00:04:47,030
one of the most sensational murdertrials in American history.
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00:04:48,030 --> 00:04:52,630
He was a detestable excuse
for a human being.
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00:04:52,790 --> 00:04:55,670
Manson was in it for Manson.
83
00:04:55,830 --> 00:04:58,670
Everyone else existed
to do his bidding,
84
00:04:58,830 --> 00:05:02,550
by becoming famous for the murders.
85
00:05:02,710 --> 00:05:05,510
The shaved heads
and the excess in the court room
86
00:05:05,670 --> 00:05:08,270
when Charlie would nod and they
would say the same thing in unison.
87
00:05:08,430 --> 00:05:10,550
I mean, I've never seen anything
quite like that.
88
00:05:10,710 --> 00:05:13,310
Today,
the judge formally passed sentence
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00:05:13,470 --> 00:05:15,430
on Charles Manson and his girls.
90
00:05:15,590 --> 00:05:19,110
The death penalty, he said,
for seven senseless murders.
91
00:05:19,270 --> 00:05:21,590
He said not only was
the sentence appropriate,
92
00:05:21,750 --> 00:05:25,790
but almost compelled in this case,
so death in the gas chamber he said.
93
00:05:25,950 --> 00:05:30,030
Do you believe that there should be
a death penalty?
94
00:05:30,190 --> 00:05:31,590
-A death penalty?
-Yes.
95
00:05:31,750 --> 00:05:34,150
For someone who commits a murder
or something like that.
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00:05:34,310 --> 00:05:36,790
Aren't we all born to die?
97
00:05:36,950 --> 00:05:39,470
Charles Manson
was originally sentenced to death.
98
00:05:39,630 --> 00:05:44,590
But in 1972, the death penalty
was overturned as unconstitutional
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00:05:44,750 --> 00:05:49,230
and so he and the rest were then
commuted to get life sentences.
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00:05:49,390 --> 00:05:52,590
I'm going back down
in an old hole now.
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00:05:55,150 --> 00:06:00,870
March 17 2018
Charles Manson's Funeral
102
00:06:01,030 --> 00:06:05,910
One of the hardest,
hardest things I've ever done
103
00:06:06,070 --> 00:06:11,110
was just to get my grandfather
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00:06:12,350 --> 00:06:13,950
to the funeral home.
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00:06:29,270 --> 00:06:32,150
2 YEARS EARLIER
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00:06:32,310 --> 00:06:36,350
SEPTEMBER 12, 2016
107
00:06:36,510 --> 00:06:38,430
For several years,
Jason Freeman recorded
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00:06:38,590 --> 00:06:40,510
multiple phone calls
with his grandfather
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00:06:40,670 --> 00:06:42,990
who was serving
9 consecutive life sentences
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00:06:43,150 --> 00:06:44,670
in a California State prison.
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00:06:44,830 --> 00:06:49,390
His grandfather is Charles Manson.
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00:06:49,550 --> 00:06:55,830
You have a prepaid callfrom Charlie.
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00:06:55,990 --> 00:07:01,310
an inmate a California statepenitentiary. Corcoran, California.
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00:07:01,470 --> 00:07:05,190
To accept this call,say or dial five now.
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00:07:06,470 --> 00:07:08,390
What's going on?
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00:07:10,390 --> 00:07:13,030
Before we could communicate,
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00:07:13,190 --> 00:07:18,590
I could show youanother level of reality
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00:07:18,750 --> 00:07:22,830
that's never been accepted.
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00:07:22,990 --> 00:07:25,990
Don't carry a bunch of trasharound in your head.
120
00:07:26,150 --> 00:07:30,310
-I sent you a postcard.
-For anything I tricked you.
121
00:07:30,470 --> 00:07:33,230
I tricked you to tie you up.
122
00:07:33,390 --> 00:07:36,430
But I don't think you get to me.
123
00:07:36,590 --> 00:07:41,430
-Because I'm too deep. See it?
-I see it.
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00:07:41,590 --> 00:07:44,830
We're calling them prisons,you fucking asshole.
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00:07:44,990 --> 00:07:47,390
They don't realizewhat they're gonna get for what.
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00:07:50,310 --> 00:07:53,790
That's it. Conversation over.
127
00:08:04,110 --> 00:08:06,990
My cousin told me
who my grandfather was.
128
00:08:08,270 --> 00:08:09,830
I was young.
I really didn't understand it.
129
00:08:09,990 --> 00:08:11,390
So I went home
and asked my mother.
130
00:08:13,070 --> 00:08:14,390
She asked me not to talk about it.
131
00:08:16,310 --> 00:08:20,830
It was just something
that I never talked about.
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00:08:20,990 --> 00:08:26,230
And nobody else in the family would
ever really talk to him about it.
133
00:08:26,390 --> 00:08:28,750
I didn't want him to think that
that was in him.
134
00:08:28,910 --> 00:08:30,590
Because that would
have been his bloodline.
135
00:08:31,750 --> 00:08:35,030
I did a little bit of research
and it talked about a cult leader,
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00:08:35,190 --> 00:08:36,710
people were killed.
137
00:08:36,870 --> 00:08:39,150
And I saw the swastika
and the crazy talk.
138
00:08:39,310 --> 00:08:41,590
All of this dramatic stuff
and I thought,
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00:08:41,750 --> 00:08:43,670
"Is this part of who I am?"
140
00:08:43,830 --> 00:08:46,070
Charles Manson is servinghis life sentence for murder
141
00:08:46,230 --> 00:08:48,550
in San Quentin Prison.That is where we talked with him.
142
00:08:48,710 --> 00:08:51,750
He never expressed remorse.
Have you never felt it?
143
00:08:51,910 --> 00:08:53,230
Remorse for what?
144
00:08:53,390 --> 00:08:55,790
You people have done everything
in the world to me.
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00:08:55,950 --> 00:08:57,510
If I wanted to kill somebody,
146
00:08:57,670 --> 00:09:00,150
I'd take this book
and beat you to death with it
147
00:09:00,310 --> 00:09:02,430
and I wouldn't feel a thing.
148
00:09:02,590 --> 00:09:08,950
Believe me, if I started murdering
people, there'd be none of you left.
149
00:09:09,110 --> 00:09:11,990
I couldn't imagine what it would be
like to be related to Charles Manson.
150
00:09:12,150 --> 00:09:15,870
I'm just curious how do you go
through life with that name?
151
00:09:16,030 --> 00:09:19,710
Charles Manson
is part of my bloodline
152
00:09:19,870 --> 00:09:23,710
and I don't have a choice,
I have to live with that.
153
00:09:25,190 --> 00:09:28,390
Understanding meis understanding yourself.
154
00:09:29,910 --> 00:09:33,390
The reality is you're me.
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00:09:41,990 --> 00:09:46,710
OUTSIDE TAMPA, FLORIDA - 2016
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00:09:55,590 --> 00:10:00,390
I met Jason when I was 22.
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00:10:00,550 --> 00:10:03,030
I told my Mom, I said,
"Hey, I met this guy
158
00:10:03,190 --> 00:10:06,830
and, you know, he said that he's
the grandson of Charles Manson,"
159
00:10:06,990 --> 00:10:09,390
and her face,
her eyes got real big and she said,
160
00:10:09,550 --> 00:10:14,190
"W're not going to tell your dad
about this for quite some time."
161
00:10:15,190 --> 00:10:21,590
You don't really want to be known for
being a so called killer's grandson.
162
00:10:23,430 --> 00:10:25,790
I'll get phone calls out of the blue.
163
00:10:27,110 --> 00:10:31,710
And it will be an unknown caller,
so I'll send it over to voicemail,
164
00:10:31,870 --> 00:10:37,230
and they tell me they just want
to kill me, they know where I live.
165
00:10:37,390 --> 00:10:40,430
It's like, why you want to kill me?
166
00:10:41,710 --> 00:10:44,430
They know what my grandfather did.
167
00:10:44,590 --> 00:10:48,830
It was 50 years ago. That's why
I have guns in my house now.
168
00:10:48,990 --> 00:10:51,350
It's why I have cubby holes set up.
169
00:10:51,510 --> 00:10:54,790
I even stage
my backyard now sometimes.
170
00:10:55,710 --> 00:10:59,030
Now, where I live is a small town,
but I mind my own business.
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00:10:59,190 --> 00:11:02,750
I stay away from people,
I don't want them to ask me about it.
172
00:11:02,910 --> 00:11:04,470
Those people
that commit those murders,
173
00:11:04,630 --> 00:11:07,990
they don't realize what they're doing
to the people left behind.
174
00:11:09,070 --> 00:11:11,910
First time I talked to Charles Manson
on the phone,
175
00:11:12,070 --> 00:11:13,430
I was definitely nervous.
176
00:11:13,590 --> 00:11:16,350
I'm still angry.
I still have resentment.
177
00:11:16,510 --> 00:11:19,350
On the one hand, he's family
and I want to get to know him,
178
00:11:19,510 --> 00:11:22,990
but on the other hand, I hate him.
179
00:11:23,150 --> 00:11:26,510
So, in my eyes,
we had a long way to go
180
00:11:26,670 --> 00:11:29,190
and it was going to take time.
181
00:11:37,390 --> 00:11:39,430
My grandfather
is famous in California.
182
00:11:39,590 --> 00:11:43,830
That's where he created
all of his notorious fame.
183
00:11:43,990 --> 00:11:45,590
But he grew up in West Virginia.
184
00:11:47,270 --> 00:11:51,550
MCMECHEN, WEST VIRGINIA
185
00:11:54,830 --> 00:11:57,630
Charles Mother was Kathleen.
186
00:11:57,790 --> 00:12:02,030
Her mother had not very much to say
that was good about her.
187
00:12:02,190 --> 00:12:05,830
I heard
that she had quite a bad reputation.
188
00:12:05,990 --> 00:12:07,310
She would lure men home
189
00:12:07,470 --> 00:12:10,030
and her brother
would beat them up and rob them.
190
00:12:10,190 --> 00:12:14,270
Kathleen Maddox
was a girl who liked to have fun.
191
00:12:14,430 --> 00:12:17,910
And Kathleen wanted to just go out
and drink and party.
192
00:12:18,070 --> 00:12:22,830
She had a very religious upbringing.
Her mother was Nazarene.
193
00:12:22,990 --> 00:12:25,270
Kathleen was only 15
when she got pregnant
194
00:12:25,430 --> 00:12:30,230
and her lover at the time,
Colonel Scott, was 24.
195
00:12:30,390 --> 00:12:31,950
And he didn't want to marry her,
196
00:12:32,110 --> 00:12:37,110
so he left, and she ended up
an unwed, pregnant teenager.
197
00:12:37,270 --> 00:12:40,910
So she had to go and find a husband,
which she did.
198
00:12:41,070 --> 00:12:44,230
Four months before Charlie was born.
199
00:12:44,390 --> 00:12:47,110
And they got married
to give her son a name.
200
00:12:47,270 --> 00:12:51,910
Kathleen was arrested with
a roommate and her brother, Luther,
201
00:12:52,070 --> 00:12:55,590
for basically taking this guy
in a bar dancing with him
202
00:12:55,750 --> 00:12:57,670
and then saying,
"Hey, let's go party."
203
00:12:57,830 --> 00:13:01,110
They grabbed a ketchup bottle,
filled it up with salt,
204
00:13:01,270 --> 00:13:03,510
hit him over the head with it,
stole his car
205
00:13:03,670 --> 00:13:05,510
and left him by the side of the road.
206
00:13:07,910 --> 00:13:10,830
Charlie would go to visit
his mother at the prison
207
00:13:10,990 --> 00:13:13,990
and she told him
that she was cleaning the area
208
00:13:14,150 --> 00:13:16,350
where they were executing prisoners
209
00:13:16,510 --> 00:13:19,110
and she hid in a closet
and watched one.
210
00:13:19,270 --> 00:13:23,230
So when he was ultimately convicted
and sent to death row
211
00:13:23,390 --> 00:13:25,110
that memory
really resonated with him
212
00:13:25,270 --> 00:13:29,390
and came back to actually
have an impact on his life.
213
00:13:29,550 --> 00:13:36,550
And I also knew that she didn't want
to take care of Charles.
214
00:13:36,710 --> 00:13:40,150
She put him in a home and when
he ran away, she took him right back.
215
00:13:40,310 --> 00:13:45,230
So, he didn't have the life
that you'd want for any child.
216
00:13:45,390 --> 00:13:51,430
Charlie was in reform schools,
juvenile detention facilities
217
00:13:51,590 --> 00:13:55,710
because he just kept stealing cars
and running away and escaping.
218
00:13:55,870 --> 00:13:57,630
And in order to punish him,
the only thing they could do
219
00:13:57,790 --> 00:14:00,190
was send him
to a more secure facility.
220
00:14:00,350 --> 00:14:02,950
So, while he was
in these institutions,
221
00:14:03,110 --> 00:14:05,270
he got an education
that was entirely different
222
00:14:05,430 --> 00:14:08,110
from what the rest of us get.
223
00:14:08,270 --> 00:14:10,670
So his grandmother agreed
to let him live with her
224
00:14:10,830 --> 00:14:13,470
if he attended church
because that was important to her.
225
00:14:13,630 --> 00:14:16,590
And that arrangement
was what brought him here.
226
00:14:18,430 --> 00:14:20,990
NANCY MADDOX CHARLES
MANSON'S GRANDMOTHER
227
00:14:21,150 --> 00:14:24,070
His grandmother had a big heart.
228
00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:26,310
One of the nicest people
I've ever met
229
00:14:26,470 --> 00:14:30,630
and it was evident that she cared
a lot about Charles.
230
00:14:30,790 --> 00:14:34,990
He was only with his grandmother for
the first part of the second grade.
231
00:14:35,150 --> 00:14:37,310
I think anybody would have loved
to have her for their grandmother.
232
00:14:37,470 --> 00:14:39,470
She knew her Bible backwards
and frontwards
233
00:14:39,630 --> 00:14:41,630
and that would have been
the saving grace for Charles.
234
00:14:41,790 --> 00:14:43,110
If he had listened to her.
235
00:14:44,950 --> 00:14:49,350
MCMECHEN, WEST VIRGINIA
236
00:14:49,510 --> 00:14:52,350
Growing up in Bentwood,
McMechen area
237
00:14:52,510 --> 00:14:57,030
it was all rail roaders and people
who work in the steel mills.
238
00:14:57,190 --> 00:15:02,790
That was primary, that was some
coal miners, but it was a nice place.
239
00:15:02,950 --> 00:15:08,790
It was a good town to grow up in,
I met Charlie actually one time.
240
00:15:08,950 --> 00:15:13,310
I happened to be on Marshall Street
in front of Joseph's confectionary
241
00:15:13,470 --> 00:15:17,110
and Charlie had his back up against
the confectionary
242
00:15:17,270 --> 00:15:18,950
and we were just talking,
243
00:15:19,110 --> 00:15:21,430
but the thing
that made an imprint on me
244
00:15:21,590 --> 00:15:23,590
was the fact that he has a machete.
245
00:15:23,750 --> 00:15:28,470
He seemed to be very quiet to me.
He didn't talk a whole lot.
246
00:15:28,630 --> 00:15:32,070
He wasn't swinging it maliciously,
but he was just going back and forth
247
00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:36,790
and we spoke for a short period
of time and then went our ways.
248
00:15:37,990 --> 00:15:40,230
I had a Halloween party
with the Sunday school
249
00:15:40,390 --> 00:15:44,510
and invited Charles
to come and he did.
250
00:15:44,670 --> 00:15:46,550
He came dressed
as a carnival barker.
251
00:15:46,710 --> 00:15:50,670
My cousin and I were the only ones
who spent time with Charles.
252
00:15:51,950 --> 00:15:55,470
And I think he went home
just a little bit hurt.
253
00:15:58,750 --> 00:16:05,390
Rosalie Willis was a kind of outgoing
person and very attractive.
254
00:16:05,550 --> 00:16:08,470
Charles went to Wheeling Downs,
which is horse racing track
255
00:16:08,630 --> 00:16:12,390
and Rosalie's father
always took her with him.
256
00:16:12,550 --> 00:16:15,550
Charles met her there
and they hung out the whole day
257
00:16:15,710 --> 00:16:18,110
and she was the one.
258
00:16:18,270 --> 00:16:23,070
By all accounts, Rosalie Willis
was Charlie Manson's first
259
00:16:23,230 --> 00:16:26,550
and only true love in his life.
260
00:16:26,710 --> 00:16:28,630
I was at Charles wedding reception.
261
00:16:28,790 --> 00:16:32,230
I have to say I would imagine that
was the happiest day of his life.
262
00:16:32,390 --> 00:16:34,190
He was just beaming.
263
00:16:34,350 --> 00:16:38,270
Smiling the whole time
and I think Rosalie was only 15.
264
00:16:38,430 --> 00:16:40,470
Then they left and went to California
265
00:16:40,630 --> 00:16:44,710
and as I understand life
went pretty sour after that.
266
00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:48,070
Charlie and Rosalie
went out west in a stolen car
267
00:16:48,230 --> 00:16:51,230
and eventually the law caught up
to Charlie and he was arrested.
268
00:16:51,390 --> 00:16:54,030
So he went to jail,
Rosalie was pregnant,
269
00:16:54,190 --> 00:16:56,030
and she came to visit him.
270
00:16:56,190 --> 00:17:00,270
For a short time, with the baby,
and then stopped coming.
271
00:17:00,430 --> 00:17:02,790
I can remember hearing
that she was pregnant
272
00:17:02,950 --> 00:17:06,310
and I assumed
that she did have a son with Charlie.
273
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:09,310
The one thing
I always admired around here
274
00:17:09,470 --> 00:17:14,790
is the local press never, ever reveal
her son's name.
275
00:17:16,470 --> 00:17:21,510
Charles Manson Jr. was named
after his father, obviously,
276
00:17:21,670 --> 00:17:24,470
but when Rosalie
started dating a truck driver
277
00:17:24,630 --> 00:17:28,030
named Jack White
and started a family with him,
278
00:17:28,190 --> 00:17:33,310
she wanted her child to match her
other children with her new husband,
279
00:17:33,470 --> 00:17:35,790
so she renamed him Jay White.
280
00:17:36,990 --> 00:17:40,430
Jay and I started dating.
He was a lot of fun.
281
00:17:40,590 --> 00:17:42,430
He always made you laugh.
282
00:17:42,590 --> 00:17:44,430
And he was a gentle guy.
283
00:17:44,590 --> 00:17:47,030
He wasn't meant or nothing.
He was always really nice.
284
00:17:47,190 --> 00:17:51,310
He said he never knew his Dad,
had never met his Dad.
285
00:17:51,470 --> 00:17:54,710
And so when his Dad
committed those murders,
286
00:17:54,870 --> 00:17:57,990
he was just a kid
and he didn't understand.
287
00:18:05,390 --> 00:18:07,030
DENNISON, OHIO
288
00:18:07,190 --> 00:18:10,190
When I met your Dad,
I met a boy named Jay White.
289
00:18:10,350 --> 00:18:12,110
That's what he called himself.
290
00:18:12,270 --> 00:18:15,950
Jay started telling us that his dad
was Charles Manson
291
00:18:16,110 --> 00:18:19,910
and we didn't even know
who Charles Manson was.
292
00:18:20,070 --> 00:18:23,670
Because we were just kids.
I never thought much about it.
293
00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:27,030
Then when I went to Cadiz
and met Jay's family.
294
00:18:27,190 --> 00:18:30,550
-So they admitted to it?
-Oh, yeah.
295
00:18:30,710 --> 00:18:34,350
So the thing is, when Jay went
to get his driver's license,
296
00:18:34,510 --> 00:18:37,550
his ID had to be
Charles Mills Manson Jr..
297
00:18:37,710 --> 00:18:40,350
Because you can't go by
Jay White legally.
298
00:18:40,510 --> 00:18:42,710
Right. I didn't think
it was legally changed.
299
00:18:42,870 --> 00:18:46,470
No, not then, no it wasn't.
It wasn't legally changed.
300
00:18:46,630 --> 00:18:48,750
And to be honest with you,
he had two Social Security cards.
301
00:18:48,910 --> 00:18:51,150
One with Jay White
and one Charles Manson Jr.
302
00:18:51,310 --> 00:18:52,910
Now how he did that, I don't know.
303
00:18:53,070 --> 00:18:55,230
I don't even know how his mother
did it, I don't know who did it.
304
00:18:55,390 --> 00:18:58,190
When anything legal came up,
he had to go under Charles Manson.
305
00:18:58,350 --> 00:19:00,030
Oh, he had to. Holy cow!
306
00:19:00,190 --> 00:19:02,430
So then when he got a job
in a coal mine,
307
00:19:02,590 --> 00:19:04,550
he had to go in
under Charles Manson.
308
00:19:04,710 --> 00:19:11,390
We were never married and he just
wasn't there when you were born.
309
00:19:12,870 --> 00:19:16,590
When he was little,
his father was my husband, Dink.
310
00:19:16,750 --> 00:19:19,310
His nickname's Dink,
his real name's Glenn.
311
00:19:19,470 --> 00:19:23,550
I just told him that he had
a different dad.
312
00:19:23,710 --> 00:19:28,830
He lived far away
and wasn't able to come and see him.
313
00:19:28,990 --> 00:19:33,350
At a young age, I didn't really
understand why he wasn't around.
314
00:19:33,510 --> 00:19:37,270
I grew up, knowing that
I had a biological father,
315
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:42,590
but he didn't engage
in activities with me.
316
00:19:42,750 --> 00:19:45,950
I can't say that it was
very troublesome at that time
317
00:19:46,110 --> 00:19:50,190
because my stepfather
filled that void.
318
00:19:51,950 --> 00:19:55,510
All I ever heard was my grandfather,
he's a killer, he's a bogeyman,
319
00:19:55,670 --> 00:19:58,950
he's a cult leader,
he murdered all of these people.
320
00:19:59,110 --> 00:20:03,230
It was such a horrific murder
321
00:20:03,390 --> 00:20:06,510
that dominated
the headlines at the time.
322
00:20:06,670 --> 00:20:08,830
The family of crazy people
323
00:20:08,990 --> 00:20:12,710
who were under the influence
of Charles Manson,
324
00:20:12,870 --> 00:20:16,670
that he was able to convince them
to do this,
325
00:20:16,830 --> 00:20:19,470
it was just a shocking incident.
326
00:20:20,830 --> 00:20:23,390
There was so much hatred
for Charles Manson
327
00:20:23,550 --> 00:20:26,110
that anytime
my father's name came up,
328
00:20:26,270 --> 00:20:31,230
the house exploded, shit shut down,
it's like it can't be talked about.
329
00:20:31,390 --> 00:20:33,550
You know,
somebody give me some answers.
330
00:20:34,590 --> 00:20:39,350
They told me that he tried to see his
dad, but his dad wouldn't see him.
331
00:20:39,510 --> 00:20:41,270
If that's true or not, I don't know.
332
00:20:42,270 --> 00:20:46,030
But I believe that he did write
to him or tried to see him.
333
00:20:49,590 --> 00:20:53,390
The older your dad got,
the more he talked about Manson.
334
00:20:54,670 --> 00:20:56,390
I didn't want him around you
335
00:20:56,550 --> 00:20:58,830
because I didn't want
you around those kind of people.
336
00:20:58,990 --> 00:21:00,870
Like why? What? What are you...?
337
00:21:01,030 --> 00:21:04,470
He didn't understand
why his dad wouldn't see him.
338
00:21:04,630 --> 00:21:09,390
He couldn't understand why his dad
wouldn't answer his letters.
339
00:21:09,550 --> 00:21:12,950
He wanted to see him
because he wanted to meet his dad
340
00:21:13,110 --> 00:21:16,030
and find out why he didn't had a dad.
341
00:21:16,190 --> 00:21:20,950
It should be pretty evident why he
didn't have a dad, he's a criminal.
342
00:21:21,110 --> 00:21:22,910
He's in prison.
343
00:21:23,070 --> 00:21:25,870
It hurt him the most in his lifetime,
344
00:21:26,030 --> 00:21:29,430
but I didn't want him
shoving it over to you.
345
00:21:29,590 --> 00:21:32,310
Because you just grew up
completely different.
346
00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:35,270
You had a mom and a dad.
You had a family.
347
00:21:36,470 --> 00:21:39,750
And that's something
Charles didn't have,
348
00:21:39,910 --> 00:21:45,550
something Jay didn't have.
So, I was actually happy
349
00:21:45,710 --> 00:21:49,990
as you got older
that I didn't have to deal with him.
350
00:21:51,710 --> 00:21:54,070
But I never said it to you.
351
00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:57,790
I never wanted to run your dad down
in front of you or nothing.
352
00:21:59,630 --> 00:22:02,430
With the Tate-La Bianca murders,
353
00:22:02,590 --> 00:22:08,630
those choices snowballed
into my family's life, right?
354
00:22:08,790 --> 00:22:11,150
They snowballed
right into my father's life.
355
00:22:11,310 --> 00:22:13,990
He didn't ask for it.
He was born into it.
356
00:22:16,190 --> 00:22:20,710
As a father, I figured my children,
I want to be in their lives.
357
00:22:20,870 --> 00:22:25,950
Because I know what it's like
to not have my father in my life.
358
00:22:26,110 --> 00:22:30,390
I met Jay in the probably mid-70s.
359
00:22:30,550 --> 00:22:34,790
Just going into the bar
with my friends after work.
360
00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:40,150
At that time the Manson murders
were only five, six years ago.
361
00:22:40,310 --> 00:22:44,510
You could actually tell after you got
to know him, talking to him,
362
00:22:44,670 --> 00:22:47,630
you could see
there was a lot of anxiety
363
00:22:47,790 --> 00:22:50,230
that he was definitely holding in.
364
00:22:50,390 --> 00:22:55,270
I didn't realize
that he fought so many demons.
365
00:22:55,430 --> 00:22:58,270
When my father came back in town,
366
00:22:58,430 --> 00:23:01,230
I'd get a letter, I'd get a card,
I'd get something for my birthday.
367
00:23:01,390 --> 00:23:04,750
I'd get a Christmas gift. He didn't
know how to be a part of my life.
368
00:23:04,910 --> 00:23:08,590
He didn't know how to be the father
that a child needs.
369
00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:12,310
Maybe he personally saw
things in himself
370
00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:15,230
like, hey,
that's way too much like my Dad
371
00:23:15,390 --> 00:23:17,150
and I think maybe
that may have scared him.
372
00:23:17,310 --> 00:23:20,230
Several times I personally heard him
say, you know,
373
00:23:20,390 --> 00:23:23,470
how can I go on
being Charles Manson's son?
374
00:23:24,950 --> 00:23:30,310
It was in the afternoon,
my freshman year,
375
00:23:30,470 --> 00:23:33,590
and they pulled me out of school.
376
00:23:33,750 --> 00:23:35,070
I didn't know why yet.
377
00:23:38,750 --> 00:23:40,430
My mom didn't come pick me up.
378
00:23:40,590 --> 00:23:42,990
Nobody told me
what was going on yet.
379
00:23:48,390 --> 00:23:51,430
Because they were just telling me
how sorry they were.
380
00:23:51,590 --> 00:23:54,150
I'm like what's going on? You know?
381
00:23:55,270 --> 00:23:59,070
My mom said that she got
a call from Grandma Rosie
382
00:23:59,230 --> 00:24:03,390
My father pulled to the side
of the road and shot himself.
383
00:24:09,790 --> 00:24:14,710
CADIZ, OHIO
384
00:24:24,950 --> 00:24:28,430
I was angry after my father's death.
385
00:24:28,590 --> 00:24:32,030
There was a lot
of unanswered questions,
386
00:24:32,190 --> 00:24:34,990
emotions that would come up,
out of the blue.
387
00:24:37,030 --> 00:24:39,670
I couldn't believe
he would do something like that.
388
00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:42,830
I was shocked. Really shocked.
389
00:24:43,990 --> 00:24:45,790
On the day we buried him,
I remember
390
00:24:45,950 --> 00:24:50,110
Grandma turning to meand looking at
me and saying, now it's buried.
391
00:24:50,270 --> 00:24:52,430
She said
we're putting a rock on top of it...
392
00:24:52,590 --> 00:24:55,830
end of story. I don't ever want
to hear his name again.
393
00:24:55,990 --> 00:24:59,110
And I didn't understand what she was
talking about,
394
00:24:59,270 --> 00:25:01,910
because I was only a Freshman
in high school
395
00:25:02,070 --> 00:25:05,910
and I didn't even know how to accept
the death of my father yet.
396
00:25:06,070 --> 00:25:09,910
It's very confusing for him.
397
00:25:10,070 --> 00:25:14,790
While normal kids get to have
regular grandparents, and parents,
398
00:25:14,950 --> 00:25:16,590
and not only has he not seen his,
399
00:25:16,750 --> 00:25:19,190
his could probably be one of
the biggest villains in the country
400
00:25:19,350 --> 00:25:21,870
so it was tough for him
to even talk about.
401
00:25:28,590 --> 00:25:31,750
I started writing Charlie in 1999.
402
00:25:31,910 --> 00:25:35,790
It was more like, I wonder
if he'd write back. It was curiosity.
403
00:25:36,990 --> 00:25:40,190
I wrote a poem entitled
the Five Cold Tiers of San Quentin.
404
00:25:40,350 --> 00:25:43,070
It touched him enough
to write me back,
405
00:25:43,230 --> 00:25:44,830
ask for my phone number,
406
00:25:44,990 --> 00:25:47,870
I gave it and he called
and the rest is history.
407
00:25:48,030 --> 00:25:50,670
We've just maintained
this friendship.
408
00:25:51,790 --> 00:25:55,350
I got a phone call and Charlie said,
"Hey man, I need a favor."
409
00:25:55,510 --> 00:25:57,590
Charlie likes to send you
on these missions.
410
00:25:57,750 --> 00:26:00,590
Manson asked me to find
his son Junior.
411
00:26:00,750 --> 00:26:03,830
Or there was a rumor
that he'd committed suicide.
412
00:26:03,990 --> 00:26:06,230
I think Manson was looking
for confirmation,
413
00:26:06,390 --> 00:26:07,790
because he didn't believe it.
414
00:26:07,950 --> 00:26:12,070
There was no proof, he said.
He's out there. Find him for me.
415
00:26:12,230 --> 00:26:16,950
So, when I did, and sure enough
it led me to Colorado,
416
00:26:17,110 --> 00:26:21,470
I had to pay, I think it was $14
for a copy of the death certificate.
417
00:26:21,630 --> 00:26:24,710
And right on that death certificate,
it's got the same date of birth,
418
00:26:24,870 --> 00:26:29,150
Aka Charles Manson Jr. Jay White...
419
00:26:29,310 --> 00:26:31,790
and I sent it to Charlie.
420
00:26:31,950 --> 00:26:36,150
Sad to say but it's true, Charlie,
he committed suicide in 1993.
421
00:26:36,310 --> 00:26:38,110
CHARLES MANSON, JR.
BLOWS HIS BRAINS OUT
422
00:26:38,270 --> 00:26:41,030
After my father
Charles Manson Jr. died...
423
00:26:42,670 --> 00:26:44,990
I seemed to get in a lot of trouble.
424
00:26:45,150 --> 00:26:47,550
It was just another negative
he had to deal with.
425
00:26:47,710 --> 00:26:50,630
One more thing for him to try
to pretend that everything was okay,
426
00:26:50,790 --> 00:26:52,190
but it was eating him up.
427
00:26:52,350 --> 00:26:55,150
I had the tunnel vision
of a young kid.
428
00:26:56,190 --> 00:27:00,190
I was always on probation,
every summer.
429
00:27:00,350 --> 00:27:02,910
Vandalism, petty theft.
430
00:27:03,070 --> 00:27:05,150
He sold drugs,
he got in trouble for it
431
00:27:05,310 --> 00:27:07,790
and I really didn't know
he was doing all that.
432
00:27:07,950 --> 00:27:09,350
I spent eight months in prison
433
00:27:09,510 --> 00:27:14,150
and six months in a rehabilitation
halfway house.
434
00:27:14,310 --> 00:27:15,630
I think I was so out of control
435
00:27:15,790 --> 00:27:20,710
that going to prison,
it would be a blessing.
436
00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:23,150
I would always find
something positive out of it
437
00:27:23,310 --> 00:27:24,830
so that I didn't kill my own spirits.
438
00:27:27,750 --> 00:27:31,550
I was locked up,
I had about four months left
439
00:27:31,710 --> 00:27:35,550
and I ran into a guy
who opened up to me
440
00:27:35,710 --> 00:27:39,230
and he said, "Jason, I won the 1982
tough man tournament."
441
00:27:39,390 --> 00:27:40,950
I'm like, "So you fought?"
442
00:27:41,110 --> 00:27:44,590
He's like, "Yeah, that was
a big achievement for me."
443
00:27:44,750 --> 00:27:47,990
And he's like, "Nobody can
ever take it away from me."
444
00:27:48,150 --> 00:27:52,030
I'm like, yeah, that's awesome.
He won the championship,
445
00:27:52,190 --> 00:27:55,070
I'm thinking, you're more than this,
you're better than this.
446
00:27:55,230 --> 00:27:57,670
Lift yourself up out where you're at.
447
00:27:57,830 --> 00:28:00,030
When I got out, I made a new goal
448
00:28:00,190 --> 00:28:05,710
that I was going to get into boxing
and mixed martial arts.
449
00:28:07,390 --> 00:28:10,590
Moving onto our second of three main events,
450
00:28:10,750 --> 00:28:12,590
Jason the Freiberg Freeman.
451
00:28:12,750 --> 00:28:16,670
I had heard about Jason
just from his fight career
452
00:28:16,830 --> 00:28:20,550
but I hadn't met him, I didn't know
who he was personally.
453
00:28:22,430 --> 00:28:26,710
I was 22 and I was bartending.
454
00:28:26,870 --> 00:28:29,270
A friend of mine had bought
this establishment
455
00:28:29,430 --> 00:28:30,910
and we weren't open yet.
456
00:28:31,070 --> 00:28:34,990
And there was this knock on the door.
So there stood these three big guys
457
00:28:35,150 --> 00:28:38,470
wanting to come in and eat wings,
and one of them was Jason.
458
00:28:38,630 --> 00:28:41,110
So, he was there all night
flirting with me
459
00:28:41,270 --> 00:28:43,550
and every time
I would serve him a beer,
460
00:28:43,710 --> 00:28:48,270
he would you know, tip me $5,
$10. $20. Whatever it was. So...
461
00:28:48,430 --> 00:28:51,270
Yeah, I think he pretty much
bought me the first night.
462
00:28:53,870 --> 00:28:57,030
It was about a week into us dating.
463
00:28:57,190 --> 00:28:59,270
He said,
"You're going to hear something
464
00:28:59,430 --> 00:29:01,350
I'm just going to tell you now."
465
00:29:01,510 --> 00:29:05,550
He said that my grandfather's
Charles Manson.
466
00:29:05,710 --> 00:29:07,670
He didn't get
into a whole lot with me
467
00:29:07,830 --> 00:29:10,110
because we were so fresh
in our relationship.
468
00:29:10,270 --> 00:29:12,110
I'm fighting my way back
out of my home town
469
00:29:12,270 --> 00:29:16,030
and fighting my way
away from my past.
470
00:29:16,190 --> 00:29:20,630
It feels like a family tree has
a branch around me and just slowly...
471
00:29:21,910 --> 00:29:26,230
taking its time to suck
the last piece of breath out of you.
472
00:29:26,390 --> 00:29:30,350
A the end of my career, I realized
I had to grow up and get a real job.
473
00:29:30,510 --> 00:29:34,350
So I could either go in a hole
and work in the mines.
474
00:29:34,510 --> 00:29:36,390
Or I could go up high
and work in the oil field.
475
00:29:36,550 --> 00:29:38,830
And I thought, well, they can't bury
a Freiberg underground
476
00:29:38,990 --> 00:29:40,750
so I had to pick the oil field.
477
00:29:42,150 --> 00:29:45,070
At that time
Jason's stepdad was still alive
478
00:29:45,230 --> 00:29:51,950
so it was kind of something that
I understood wasn't talked about.
479
00:29:52,110 --> 00:29:54,110
It wasn't until Jason's stepdad
passed away
480
00:29:54,270 --> 00:29:56,950
and then it seemed like more
and more and more.
481
00:29:57,110 --> 00:30:00,990
He felt more free
to talk about his real dad
482
00:30:01,150 --> 00:30:04,150
and then talked about his grandpa.
483
00:30:04,310 --> 00:30:09,830
I didn't learn about a lot of
his lifem of course, until later on.
484
00:30:10,990 --> 00:30:14,830
I knew it was only a matter of time
before it did come out.
485
00:30:14,990 --> 00:30:16,390
Those things are going to surface.
486
00:30:16,550 --> 00:30:20,110
I wanted to be that one
to let it come out.
487
00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:23,430
You have to be awful comfortable
in your own skin
488
00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:26,270
if that's a decision you made
and you want to go public with it
489
00:30:26,430 --> 00:30:29,470
and acknowledge it, you have to be
100% sure why you're doing it
490
00:30:29,630 --> 00:30:31,630
and be able to walk down the street
with your head held high.
491
00:30:31,790 --> 00:30:34,190
Because you can't put that genie
back in the bottle.
492
00:30:34,350 --> 00:30:36,550
Once you say you're his grandson,
that's it.
493
00:30:38,390 --> 00:30:42,710
Today this member of the realManson family says enough.
494
00:30:42,870 --> 00:30:45,070
I am who I am you know?
495
00:30:45,230 --> 00:30:49,350
You know,
I'm not something that he was.
496
00:30:49,510 --> 00:30:55,030
CNN was working with Matthew
Roberts Lintz for quite some time.
497
00:30:55,190 --> 00:30:59,070
And he claims to be a son
of Manson...
498
00:30:59,230 --> 00:31:04,590
alleging that his mother was involved
in this wild orgy with Manson.
499
00:31:05,750 --> 00:31:08,550
Roberts tried to get a DNA matchwith genetic material
500
00:31:08,710 --> 00:31:12,630
from Charles Manson himself,but the samples were contaminated.
501
00:31:12,790 --> 00:31:15,830
But there is another wayto establish the family link.
502
00:31:15,990 --> 00:31:18,190
Matthew Robertsand Jason Freeman
503
00:31:18,350 --> 00:31:21,150
if they're relatedwill share Manson's DNA.
504
00:31:21,310 --> 00:31:24,430
They had us on camera
to see if we're related.
505
00:31:24,590 --> 00:31:28,110
And I thought
I was going to see my uncle.
506
00:31:28,270 --> 00:31:31,190
I thought, I mean he looks like,
he's got the big old bug eyes.
507
00:31:31,350 --> 00:31:33,510
We determined
with scientific certainty
508
00:31:33,670 --> 00:31:37,110
that you do not share a common
biological ancestry.
509
00:31:37,270 --> 00:31:39,030
No match on any level,
510
00:31:39,190 --> 00:31:44,470
but everything has a reaction
and everything has a ripple effect.
511
00:31:46,030 --> 00:31:49,990
Being on CNN
with Matthew Lintz for a DNA test...
512
00:31:50,150 --> 00:31:54,070
The ripple effect worked its way
all the way to my grandfather.
513
00:31:55,030 --> 00:31:56,710
A buddy of mine called me and said,
514
00:31:56,870 --> 00:32:00,910
"Hey man, you need to turn
on this news channel, quick."
515
00:32:01,070 --> 00:32:02,870
And I said why?
He said, "Man, do it, quick."
516
00:32:03,030 --> 00:32:06,550
So I turned it on and sure enough
there was Jason Freeman.
517
00:32:06,710 --> 00:32:10,110
And the caption below it said
grandson of Charles Manson.
518
00:32:10,270 --> 00:32:12,670
And right away I said,
here we go again.
519
00:32:12,830 --> 00:32:15,950
Just another guy claiming to be
related to Manson.
520
00:32:16,110 --> 00:32:19,270
But what stood out to me was when
they asked him about his father,
521
00:32:19,430 --> 00:32:25,070
Charles Jr. and here I see this
six foot burly cage fighter crying,
522
00:32:25,230 --> 00:32:27,190
there's some real emotion there.
523
00:32:27,350 --> 00:32:30,110
So I found him. I wrote him a letter.
524
00:32:30,270 --> 00:32:32,750
I got a letter
from John Michael Jones
525
00:32:32,910 --> 00:32:35,350
just opening up
and pouring out his heart.
526
00:32:35,510 --> 00:32:39,430
I called him up and I'm like,
"Hey John, this is Jason Freeman."
527
00:32:39,590 --> 00:32:42,230
And I'm like, hey man,
I'm glad you called.
528
00:32:42,390 --> 00:32:46,230
Let me introduce myself.
I'm a friend of your grandfather's.
529
00:32:46,390 --> 00:32:49,390
And, you know,
he asked me to reach out to you.
530
00:32:49,550 --> 00:32:53,550
He opened up and shared with me...
531
00:32:53,710 --> 00:32:57,150
how he really truly loved
my grandfather.
532
00:32:57,310 --> 00:32:58,830
Manson called
not even a night or two later
533
00:32:58,990 --> 00:33:01,270
and I said, hey, you're not going
to believe who I talked to.
534
00:33:01,430 --> 00:33:02,750
He said, "Yeah, who's that?"
535
00:33:02,910 --> 00:33:06,750
I said your real grandson,
Junior's kid. Junior had a kid.
536
00:33:06,910 --> 00:33:11,470
I said he's got pictures of Rosalie,
he's got pictures of Junior.
537
00:33:11,630 --> 00:33:13,630
Death certificate, birth certificate
538
00:33:13,790 --> 00:33:17,310
And he got quiet.
He said, pictures of Rosalie?
539
00:33:17,470 --> 00:33:19,750
I'm like, "He's got pictures
of Rosie, Joey.
540
00:33:19,910 --> 00:33:22,110
He said, yeah but...
Are they pictures that...
541
00:33:22,270 --> 00:33:24,830
I said, "No, no, no, these are
pictures I've never seen."
542
00:33:24,990 --> 00:33:26,630
He's like,
"You've never seen any of them?"
543
00:33:26,790 --> 00:33:29,030
I said, "None of them. It's him."
544
00:33:29,190 --> 00:33:30,870
"I need you to find out
more about this guy."
545
00:33:31,030 --> 00:33:34,190
I said, already did.
I already talked to him on the phone.
546
00:33:34,350 --> 00:33:36,990
So, who's he look like? Is he fat?
547
00:33:37,150 --> 00:33:38,910
For some reason
that was important to him.
548
00:33:39,070 --> 00:33:40,910
How many kids he got?
549
00:33:41,070 --> 00:33:44,310
What color of hair do they have?
Does any of them have freckles?
550
00:33:44,470 --> 00:33:47,110
Like what kind of questions are that?
Like they got freckles?
551
00:33:47,270 --> 00:33:50,430
But then as I started to ponder that
after the 15 minute phone call,
552
00:33:50,590 --> 00:33:53,910
I started to think those are
grandfatherly questions.
553
00:33:54,070 --> 00:33:57,430
So I started to slowly feel
Charlie accept Jason.
554
00:33:57,590 --> 00:33:59,070
Most people's childhood memories
555
00:33:59,230 --> 00:34:01,030
are their grandpa bouncing
on their knee
556
00:34:01,190 --> 00:34:04,870
or grandpa
usually teasing their grandsons
557
00:34:05,030 --> 00:34:06,430
and Jason never had that.
558
00:34:06,590 --> 00:34:08,750
Never had that
from his biological father
559
00:34:08,910 --> 00:34:10,950
and never had that
from his grandfather.
560
00:34:11,110 --> 00:34:17,310
So I think it's Jason's inner need
to connect with his roots.
561
00:34:17,470 --> 00:34:20,830
I hope to get Jason one step closer
to meeting his grandfather.
562
00:34:20,990 --> 00:34:24,190
It's important for me to do that
because I think
563
00:34:24,350 --> 00:34:28,110
it's going to benefit Charlie
just as much as Jason, if not more.
564
00:34:31,870 --> 00:34:34,390
You have a prepaid callfrom an inmate
565
00:34:34,550 --> 00:34:38,670
at California State Prison.Corcoran, California.
566
00:34:38,830 --> 00:34:41,750
The first time I talked to
Charles Manson on the phone
567
00:34:41,910 --> 00:34:43,590
was when I was in the oil field.
568
00:34:43,750 --> 00:34:49,110
It was a little loud, but I made sure
that I was on time by the phone
569
00:34:49,270 --> 00:34:53,590
because when you call from prison
you get one call.
570
00:34:53,750 --> 00:34:56,030
So my grandfather's
first conversation,
571
00:34:56,190 --> 00:34:58,150
he started venting about his case.
572
00:34:58,310 --> 00:35:01,110
He actually informed me of a lot
573
00:35:01,270 --> 00:35:04,790
of what he thought that his rights
were taken from him.
574
00:35:04,950 --> 00:35:08,230
He was wrongfully accused
for the murders
575
00:35:08,390 --> 00:35:10,350
that he wasn't present at.
576
00:35:10,510 --> 00:35:12,710
So he was informing me of the rights
577
00:35:12,870 --> 00:35:15,430
that were pulled from him
back in the 70s.
578
00:35:15,590 --> 00:35:18,430
How come the court shirked
and turned their backs on me
579
00:35:18,590 --> 00:35:20,270
and wouldn't give me my rights?
580
00:35:20,430 --> 00:35:22,630
When it came defense time they said
we're taking too long on this,
581
00:35:22,790 --> 00:35:25,950
covered it up and told the public
another Manson outburst.
582
00:35:26,110 --> 00:35:28,590
What defense did I put on?
What witness did I call?
583
00:35:28,750 --> 00:35:31,910
Did I call one witness?
Yeah, I got peace.
584
00:35:32,070 --> 00:35:34,350
But until everybody's got peace,
I can't have peace.
585
00:35:35,550 --> 00:35:37,190
In other words, I got you.
586
00:35:37,350 --> 00:35:39,110
But I can't have you
until everybody else gets you
587
00:35:39,270 --> 00:35:41,670
and when everybody else gets
through with you, then I'll get you.
588
00:35:41,830 --> 00:35:45,070
I was still angry about my father,
about my father's death
589
00:35:45,230 --> 00:35:47,590
and I was pointing
that finger right at him.
590
00:35:47,750 --> 00:35:51,710
When Jason was interacting
with Charles, I was really shocked.
591
00:35:51,870 --> 00:35:57,670
I didn't like it at all.
He was a grown man.
592
00:35:57,830 --> 00:36:00,750
I guess I can't stop him,
but I did not like it.
593
00:36:00,910 --> 00:36:02,630
I wanted to know
what they talked about.
594
00:36:02,790 --> 00:36:05,070
Like you know, tell him
where we lived or anything,
595
00:36:05,230 --> 00:36:08,550
I mean, the fact that he was
in California was good with that.
596
00:36:08,710 --> 00:36:12,390
Like, I know he's not coming here.
So you know...
597
00:36:12,550 --> 00:36:17,030
I'd like for us to keep talking more.
I'd like to record our phone calls.
598
00:36:19,030 --> 00:36:21,910
Yeah, haven't you been doing it?
599
00:36:22,070 --> 00:36:26,670
As we continued phone calls
for the first year
600
00:36:26,830 --> 00:36:30,750
that was, you know,
one of the hardest things of my life.
601
00:36:30,910 --> 00:36:33,190
In the beginning, they were both
very stand offish.
602
00:36:33,350 --> 00:36:35,470
I think first...
603
00:36:35,630 --> 00:36:40,230
Charlie has a lot of people
who want to contact him,
604
00:36:40,390 --> 00:36:42,350
and do contact him.
605
00:36:42,510 --> 00:36:46,910
And Jason was kind of at a loss,
what do I even say?
606
00:36:47,070 --> 00:36:51,030
So he was struggling
to carry on conversations.
607
00:36:52,150 --> 00:36:53,870
Did you do what I asked you?
608
00:36:54,950 --> 00:37:00,270
-Not yet
-I know you couldn't have did it.
609
00:37:00,430 --> 00:37:05,350
-You're incompetent and brain dead.
-Fuck you.
610
00:37:07,310 --> 00:37:10,190
You gonna get upset at me,
611
00:37:10,350 --> 00:37:12,510
and you're going to get mad at mefor telling you the truth?
612
00:37:12,670 --> 00:37:15,430
Hey, I enough said.
Please don't get mad at me, but...
613
00:37:15,590 --> 00:37:20,070
-Good Lord, Hail Mary.
-Fuck off, it's all right.
614
00:37:21,710 --> 00:37:24,830
Charlie had a lot of regrets.
615
00:37:24,990 --> 00:37:29,230
And one of them
was not being there for Junior.
616
00:37:29,390 --> 00:37:33,910
And I think he was in a sense
trying to make it up to Jason.
617
00:37:34,070 --> 00:37:39,550
I think he had regrets for not
what he called parenting.
618
00:37:39,710 --> 00:37:42,910
He wasn't a parent
to this one or that one.
619
00:37:43,070 --> 00:37:44,790
Because I've never beena parent to you.
620
00:37:46,470 --> 00:37:50,670
I've never beenanything to you in particular.
621
00:37:50,830 --> 00:37:54,430
Well, we haven't had
that chance to...
622
00:37:54,590 --> 00:38:00,870
until now to understand
each other more and...
623
00:38:01,030 --> 00:38:03,790
Well, understanding meansunderstanding yourself,
624
00:38:03,950 --> 00:38:06,630
and that's wrong.You are wrong away from that.
625
00:38:10,070 --> 00:38:13,630
It was hard not to place
all that anger
626
00:38:13,790 --> 00:38:16,590
and the death
of my father on his shoulders.
627
00:38:16,750 --> 00:38:22,070
I thought my father couldn't handle
the pressure of who his father was
628
00:38:22,230 --> 00:38:24,790
and that's why he killed himself.
629
00:38:24,950 --> 00:38:29,630
Can you imaginea guy that would commit suicide
630
00:38:29,790 --> 00:38:33,070
because he couldn't standwhat somebody else did?
631
00:38:34,110 --> 00:38:37,790
That guy must have been some boy.He was really warped, man.
632
00:38:45,070 --> 00:38:47,030
But when you're dealingwith a situation
633
00:38:47,190 --> 00:38:48,750
that has a lot of pressure to it?
634
00:38:51,270 --> 00:38:53,630
Are you asking me that question?
635
00:38:53,790 --> 00:38:56,430
Yeah, well, you knew the guy.
I didn't know him.
636
00:38:56,590 --> 00:39:01,190
As we got to know each other
and he told me
637
00:39:01,350 --> 00:39:04,430
that he didn't get the messages.
He didn't get the letters.
638
00:39:04,590 --> 00:39:08,910
He didn't get the stuff from
my father that was sent out there.
639
00:39:09,070 --> 00:39:14,110
He said that there was so much going
on and there's so many people.
640
00:39:14,270 --> 00:39:16,670
He didn't know who was
who and who was real
641
00:39:16,830 --> 00:39:20,190
and he didn't want to bring him
into that same darkness
642
00:39:20,350 --> 00:39:22,750
that he's created for himself.
643
00:39:22,910 --> 00:39:26,070
You have a prepaid callfrom the California State Prison.
644
00:39:26,230 --> 00:39:29,030
Corcoran, California.
645
00:39:29,190 --> 00:39:31,150
Only I can lock me up.
646
00:39:33,230 --> 00:39:35,950
Everything in the worldis in my mind.
647
00:39:37,710 --> 00:39:39,150
I rule me.
648
00:39:41,070 --> 00:39:43,070
Me is all there is to me.
649
00:39:46,550 --> 00:39:47,870
See it?
650
00:39:48,030 --> 00:39:50,070
Last year we were in my garage...
651
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:54,550
Manson had called him
and he put him on speaker phone
652
00:39:54,710 --> 00:39:56,910
I'm everybody.
653
00:39:57,070 --> 00:39:58,710
I'm everywhere.
654
00:39:59,710 --> 00:40:01,150
I'm everything.
655
00:40:02,150 --> 00:40:03,470
I'm nothing.
656
00:40:04,670 --> 00:40:07,790
I never was. I've always been.
657
00:40:07,950 --> 00:40:10,910
The paradox of like...
658
00:40:11,070 --> 00:40:13,390
the double entendre's that are...
659
00:40:15,270 --> 00:40:19,030
one way or the other.I know but I don't know.
660
00:40:19,190 --> 00:40:23,030
I don't know that I don't know.If I don't know than I don't know.
661
00:40:23,190 --> 00:40:25,350
How could I know what knowing is?
662
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:29,870
I started thinking myself you know,
here's my buddy who's chased this...
663
00:40:30,030 --> 00:40:32,950
and try to get some answers
and some soul searching
664
00:40:33,110 --> 00:40:36,390
and this is the conversation
that he gets with his grandfather?
665
00:40:36,550 --> 00:40:39,950
Wasn't much of a conversation,
it was just Charles Manson talking.
666
00:40:40,110 --> 00:40:42,070
I could tell youthings about spiders
667
00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:46,670
and solitary confinementthat you wouldn't believe.
668
00:40:46,830 --> 00:40:49,190
You can't be too smart.
669
00:40:49,350 --> 00:40:53,590
You got to be a low life level...
670
00:40:53,750 --> 00:40:56,790
to understandthe low life considerations.
671
00:40:56,950 --> 00:41:00,350
At that point I didn't know how good
it was for him emotionally
672
00:41:00,510 --> 00:41:03,430
to continue and make
these phone calls to the prison...
673
00:41:03,590 --> 00:41:07,710
but it also wasn't my business.
My job was just to support him.
674
00:41:07,870 --> 00:41:11,830
I tried to tell my son that,
I said Jason, he's a criminal,
675
00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:15,310
he's always going to be a criminal.
He just is who he is.
676
00:41:15,470 --> 00:41:19,110
Just from what you see on interviews
and stuff how crazy he talks.
677
00:41:19,270 --> 00:41:20,990
It's your life, it's not mine.
678
00:41:21,150 --> 00:41:25,590
I'm just another guy
walking down the road...
679
00:41:25,750 --> 00:41:29,990
I've got a face... What is it?
680
00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:33,870
I just didn't want him filling
Jason's head full of crime.
681
00:41:34,030 --> 00:41:35,790
There's good in Charles Manson,
682
00:41:35,950 --> 00:41:38,590
I don't care
what anybody else thinks,
683
00:41:38,750 --> 00:41:40,990
It's there...
684
00:41:41,150 --> 00:41:44,670
The evil things
that he was involved with
685
00:41:44,830 --> 00:41:46,150
That's the evil side of life.
686
00:41:47,750 --> 00:41:51,150
Charlie began to see
that Jason wasn't a struggling actor,
687
00:41:51,310 --> 00:41:54,510
or a starving musician.
688
00:41:54,670 --> 00:41:58,470
And with that he was
just an average Joe
689
00:41:58,630 --> 00:42:01,350
and as a dad...
690
00:42:01,510 --> 00:42:03,910
who was just supporting his children.
691
00:42:04,070 --> 00:42:06,750
A family man who just wanted
to know his grandfather.
692
00:42:06,910 --> 00:42:09,190
I think that he's proud that...
693
00:42:09,350 --> 00:42:11,710
he's his grandson
and look what he's overcome.
694
00:42:15,110 --> 00:42:16,510
Could everybody else in this room,
695
00:42:16,670 --> 00:42:18,710
could everybody else
that may watch this,
696
00:42:18,870 --> 00:42:21,350
could you be
Charles Manson's grandson?
697
00:42:21,510 --> 00:42:28,030
And then develop a family like him
and you know, be an entrepreneur...
698
00:42:28,190 --> 00:42:31,030
and be a successful
and have beautiful kids and a wife?
699
00:42:31,190 --> 00:42:34,430
You had a prepaid call froma California State Prison.
700
00:42:34,590 --> 00:42:36,990
Corcoran, California.
701
00:42:37,150 --> 00:42:39,390
How's your kids, man?
702
00:42:39,550 --> 00:42:41,310
Man, they're doing good, brother.
703
00:42:41,470 --> 00:42:43,310
-Yeah. That's a good, man.-Yeah.
704
00:42:43,470 --> 00:42:47,310
Yeah, they're going to grow uplike you teach them, man.
705
00:42:47,470 --> 00:42:48,950
At first I would ..
706
00:42:49,110 --> 00:42:53,270
You know, he'd be talking, here's
my wife, Audrey. I mean he was...
707
00:42:55,630 --> 00:42:59,430
as close to normal that you can
include in the same sentence
708
00:42:59,590 --> 00:43:02,710
with Charles Manson,
but very normal.
709
00:43:03,830 --> 00:43:05,150
Who you going to vote for?
710
00:43:07,030 --> 00:43:12,470
-Me?
-You're gonna vote for Trump?
711
00:43:12,630 --> 00:43:17,510
What about Hillary? Because...you're doomed if one wins
712
00:43:17,670 --> 00:43:20,110
and you're damnedif the other one wins.
713
00:43:21,630 --> 00:43:24,350
So in the beginning,
he didn't start talking to the kids.
714
00:43:24,510 --> 00:43:29,030
It wasn't until after Jason and him
had kind of developed a relationship
715
00:43:29,190 --> 00:43:33,310
and then he wasn't...
716
00:43:34,950 --> 00:43:38,150
the crazy monster
that he was made out to be.
717
00:43:38,310 --> 00:43:41,790
I don't like the thought
of the kids knowing stuff.
718
00:43:41,950 --> 00:43:45,350
He would call our house. The kids
would talk to Charlie on the phone.
719
00:43:45,510 --> 00:43:48,150
It was just kind of like hey,
your grandpa's on the phone.
720
00:43:48,310 --> 00:43:51,630
Yeah, they reflect you, man.
721
00:43:51,790 --> 00:43:54,950
That's why I keep myself in check,
722
00:43:55,110 --> 00:43:57,470
because my kids
are following what I do.
723
00:43:57,630 --> 00:44:01,950
You working regular?That's what counts.
724
00:44:02,110 --> 00:44:04,590
You've got kids,you got to have that job, man.
725
00:44:04,750 --> 00:44:08,150
Take care of your kids,
take care of your family.
726
00:44:08,310 --> 00:44:11,470
Take care of yourself,that's all you got, man.
727
00:44:11,630 --> 00:44:14,390
-You certainly don't have me.
-I get it.
728
00:44:15,590 --> 00:44:19,550
Yeah, I'm a cold dude, man.I deal hard like a mother.
729
00:44:19,710 --> 00:44:22,750
I'd leave you sitting in a celland I'd be up on a train.
730
00:44:22,910 --> 00:44:26,030
I'd be in your back pocket.
Yeah, I ain't go nowhere...
731
00:44:28,310 --> 00:44:33,230
Jason never looked at it like he was
talking to a cult, serial killer.
732
00:44:33,390 --> 00:44:35,510
He was always talking
to his grandfather.
733
00:44:36,670 --> 00:44:43,590
I'm his grandson. I can't look at him
as just being evil.
734
00:44:43,750 --> 00:44:47,630
Overall,
I think Jason came out of those years
735
00:44:47,790 --> 00:44:50,750
with some sort of connection
with his grandpa.
736
00:44:50,910 --> 00:44:53,390
Dude. Well, I'm looking for some...
737
00:44:54,510 --> 00:44:59,110
relieffrom this dilemma that I'm on.
738
00:44:59,270 --> 00:45:02,430
The horns of this devilI'm riding over here.
739
00:45:03,510 --> 00:45:06,070
I'm trying to figure out a wayto get out
740
00:45:06,230 --> 00:45:08,030
from underneath this bullshit.
741
00:45:09,230 --> 00:45:11,790
And I can't find a way.
742
00:45:11,950 --> 00:45:17,230
Well, however I can contribute to
help my grandfather,
743
00:45:17,390 --> 00:45:18,790
I would do that
744
00:45:18,950 --> 00:45:22,270
because if you're
family, you're family
745
00:45:22,430 --> 00:45:26,750
and nothing comes in between that.
746
00:45:26,910 --> 00:45:30,630
It wasn't a goal at first.
It wasn't something like...
747
00:45:30,790 --> 00:45:35,790
Off the top of my head, I'm like,
one day I want to see my grandfather.
748
00:45:37,430 --> 00:45:39,950
I know my mom's asked me
in the past,
749
00:45:40,110 --> 00:45:43,390
do you ever want to see
your grandfather? And...
750
00:45:43,550 --> 00:45:44,910
Then I didn't have a reason to.
751
00:45:45,070 --> 00:45:48,510
I supported him
in whatever happened.
752
00:45:48,670 --> 00:45:52,430
So, if he wanted to go,
I was supporting that.
753
00:45:52,590 --> 00:45:54,630
If he didn't want to go,
I was supporting that.
754
00:45:54,790 --> 00:45:58,710
As I got older, as my kids grew
and as my kids got older,
755
00:45:58,870 --> 00:46:01,590
I'd think of my father,
756
00:46:01,750 --> 00:46:05,670
I'd think of my grandfather
and it rolls full circle and...
757
00:46:05,830 --> 00:46:07,150
Why wouldn't I want to meet him?
758
00:46:07,310 --> 00:46:12,070
He had COPD. He had a bad heart.
759
00:46:13,310 --> 00:46:17,270
He was complaining of all different
kinds of things,
760
00:46:18,470 --> 00:46:20,870
but mainly, the cancer weakened him.
761
00:46:22,070 --> 00:46:23,430
He was bleeding a lot.
762
00:46:23,590 --> 00:46:26,150
You have a prepaid call froman inmate
763
00:46:26,310 --> 00:46:30,550
at a California State Prison,Corcoran, California.
764
00:46:30,710 --> 00:46:32,710
-Hey, grandpa, I was supposed...
-Yeah?
765
00:46:32,870 --> 00:46:35,070
I'm supposed to ask you...
766
00:46:37,790 --> 00:46:42,990
...for a visitation paperwork,
767
00:46:43,150 --> 00:46:45,510
so I can come and visit you.
768
00:46:47,230 --> 00:46:49,190
-Yeah.
-I wanna...
769
00:46:50,950 --> 00:46:53,710
-I wanna... Yeah. I need...
-Yeah.
770
00:46:53,870 --> 00:46:56,870
Let me explainsomething to you, man.
771
00:46:57,030 --> 00:47:00,710
-Okay.
-You're a cage fighter.
772
00:47:02,470 --> 00:47:07,990
You understand what it's liketo fight for what you get.
773
00:47:08,150 --> 00:47:10,550
-All right...
-When I came to prison,
774
00:47:11,630 --> 00:47:15,150
if you wanted to visit,you'd go to the front gate
775
00:47:15,310 --> 00:47:19,270
and you tell the guy, I wantto visit Charles Manson,
776
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:22,550
and they can't stop you.
777
00:47:27,350 --> 00:47:28,670
Welcome back, everyone.
778
00:47:28,830 --> 00:47:31,630
Cult leader Charles Manson
has reportedly been moved
779
00:47:31,790 --> 00:47:34,830
from prison to a hospital
here in California.
780
00:47:34,990 --> 00:47:38,150
Sources telling the LA Times
the convicted mass murderer
781
00:47:38,310 --> 00:47:40,230
is in serious condition.
782
00:47:40,390 --> 00:47:42,430
There's no secret.
Charlie was very sick.
783
00:47:46,350 --> 00:47:47,670
And it was different this time.
784
00:47:47,830 --> 00:47:50,270
Because he started to lose weight,
a lot of weight.
785
00:47:51,270 --> 00:47:53,590
I just knew it was it. I felt it.
786
00:47:53,750 --> 00:47:55,950
I thought
this guy can't last much longer.
787
00:47:56,110 --> 00:48:00,630
As he gets older, no matter
who he is, he's still family.
788
00:48:00,790 --> 00:48:02,670
I want to be beside him.
789
00:48:02,830 --> 00:48:06,150
I believe that the first time
I see my grandfather..
790
00:48:06,310 --> 00:48:09,230
could also be the last time
I see my grandfather.
791
00:48:11,030 --> 00:48:15,310
June 18, 2017
792
00:48:17,870 --> 00:48:19,590
Jason started to go to California...
793
00:48:19,750 --> 00:48:22,230
and it's almost one of those things
when you feel in your gut
794
00:48:22,390 --> 00:48:25,870
that you have to do something
and it's got to be fairly quickly.
795
00:48:26,030 --> 00:48:27,790
That's how it feels.
796
00:48:29,070 --> 00:48:33,430
I just couldn't sit at home anymore,
working every day,
797
00:48:33,590 --> 00:48:37,270
knowing that he's on his death bed
in and out of the hospital.
798
00:48:39,030 --> 00:48:42,310
The major thing that's preventing
Jason from seeing Charlie is...
799
00:48:42,470 --> 00:48:45,550
the so called list at the prison.
800
00:48:45,710 --> 00:48:49,390
Jason's not on the list,
approved list to see Charlie.
801
00:48:49,550 --> 00:48:52,590
It's probably going to be the first
and last time that he meets him.
802
00:48:52,750 --> 00:48:54,790
But I think
that will bring closure...
803
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:56,870
not only for Jason,
but for Charlie too.
804
00:48:59,110 --> 00:49:03,910
It's definitely going to be
an emotional visit for my husband
805
00:49:04,070 --> 00:49:05,430
and you can't pick your family
all of the time,
806
00:49:05,590 --> 00:49:08,030
and the fact
that it's Charles Manson but he...
807
00:49:08,190 --> 00:49:10,590
you know, he's going out there
because it's his Grandpa.
808
00:49:10,750 --> 00:49:12,590
Wish he'd just forgot about
the whole thing.
809
00:49:13,750 --> 00:49:15,510
He just let it go.
810
00:49:15,670 --> 00:49:19,390
To meet Jason is that last bit
of normalcy in Charlie's life.
811
00:49:19,550 --> 00:49:22,190
That he's going to have
before he passes away
812
00:49:22,350 --> 00:49:26,470
to feel that bond between
a grandfather and a grandson.
813
00:49:28,870 --> 00:49:34,710
And Jason, to me, is the only last
living descendent that gives a crap.
814
00:49:34,870 --> 00:49:39,270
That wants a part of Charlie's life.
That wants to be there to help him.
815
00:49:39,430 --> 00:49:42,310
The pressure that I get from being...
816
00:49:43,510 --> 00:49:48,310
his grandson is overwhelming.
It's just a matter of time
817
00:49:48,470 --> 00:49:50,950
until you get stretched
too far until it breaks.
818
00:49:55,070 --> 00:49:56,550
There is nothing else.
819
00:49:59,430 --> 00:50:00,750
You're in it.
820
00:50:04,470 --> 00:50:05,790
You're me.
821
00:50:07,350 --> 00:50:09,190
I'm you.
822
00:50:09,350 --> 00:50:10,670
You're in my blood.
823
00:50:16,230 --> 00:50:19,230
Subtitles: Philip Macdonald
www.sdimedia.com
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