All language subtitles for A.Wilderness.Of.Error.S01E05.1080p.HULU.WEB-DL.DD5.1.H.264-Cinefeel.EN

(insects chirping)

TED KOPPEL:
Randall Dale Adams,
the subject of the film

The Thin Blue Line,
was released on bail today

for a crime he says
he didn't commit.

It's a curious way to have come
to where you are tonight.

I mean, to be freed,
in effect, because of a movie.

There's the old saying,

"There's no guilty people
in prison."

Luckily, I had one
that would listen to me.

And you're talking
about the director

‐of The Thin Blue Line,
Errol Morris?
‐Errol Morris.

Well, as I learned
more and more about the case,

I came to believe
more and more strongly

in this man's innocence.

After reading
this trial transcript,

gradually, I became obsessed
with this particular case.

And at that point,
I knew I had to work as hard

‐as I possibly could, uh,
to seek his release.
‐Hmm.

Last month,
he was released from prison

and returned to his family
in Columbus, Ohio.

This is after close to 13 years
of imprisonment.

I make this movie,
The Thin Blue Line, in Texas.

The guy who turns out
to be innocent,

the guy who is sentenced
to death,

the guy who comes
within three days

of being strapped
into Old Sparky,

the Texas electric chair,

for a murder, was innocent.

NEWSMAN (on TV):
When Adams flew home to Ohio,

Errol Morris was waiting
to greet him.

(indistinct,
overlapping chatter)

WOMAN:
We'll give everybody a shot.

MORRIS:
Would I like to do it again?

Yeah, of course I would.

NEWSWOMAN:
Errol Morris joins me now
from Boston.

Let's start with the
biggest question, of course.

What makes you believe

that Jeffrey MacDonald
might be innocent?

Evidence.

The wife and two young
daughters of an Army doctor

were found dead in their home
in Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

MIKE WALLACE:
You may remember the crime
back in 1970.

One of America's most
sensational murder cases.

One of the most bizarre
murder cases.

DAN RATHER:
The most complicated
murder case

‐in history.
‐MacDonald says the murderers

were three men
and a woman shouting,

"Acid is great.
Kill all the pigs."

It's a baffling story the more
you begin to look into it.

Jeffrey MacDonald's life became
the subject of a book.

BARBARA WALTERS:
A popular miniseries.

A television movie
called Fatal Vision.

REPORTER:
The best‐seller
portrayed MacDonald

as a cold‐blooded killer.

REPORTER 2:
Today, MacDonald was sentenced

to three life terms in prison.

MAN: Something really,
really bad happened here.

It was a miscarriage
of justice.

I cannot overcome Fatal Vision.

MORRIS:
What happens when a narrative

takes the place of reality?

It's almost as if nothing
really happened in history

unless it has been
recorded in a movie

or in a television series.

WOMAN:
A new book by acclaimed
author and filmmaker

Errol Morris
says that the case

may be more complicated
than previously thought.

MacDONALD:
I did not hurt my wife
or my children.

HELENA:
That evening I was wearing

a blonde wig and a floppy hat.

‐MAN: An innocent man
is in jail today.
‐MILDRED: The man is guilty

‐as can be.
‐I am innocent.

He's lucky I haven't
gone out and killed him.

MacDONALD:
I am not that monster.

♪♪ ♪♪

‐Hello there.
‐How are you?

Need to set up
the Interrotron...

Yeah, I'm just gonna
put these over...

‐MAN: Yes, we did.
‐Oh, it's for him?

‐Oh, that's a great idea.
‐That's what I was thinking.

‐That's fine.
‐Yeah.

(laughing)

(indistinct, distant chatter)

Okay.

‐MAN: That's out.
‐Okay.

This is starting to look
like the Interrotron.

Am I... am I directing here?

(laughs)

SMERLING:
Can we talkabout 2012?

The hearing and, uh...?

Yeah, that was...

I mean, as this person
who did a lot of work

and went through
the documentary process,

you went down there
with all good intentions.

It was... must have been
a tough experience.

I went down there
because I'd been involved

in working on the book
for a couple of years,

and everything seemed
to be coming to a head.

Um...

It played out differently
than I expected.

NEWSMAN:
Now to a new development

in one of the most sensational
crimes in American history.

40 years later,
he's getting another chance

to tell a court once again
he's innocent.

NEWSWOMAN:
The doctor's new defense team

asserts
that there's new evidence.

NEWSMAN 3:
His lawyer says
this latest appeal

may be MacDonald's
best chance yet.

NEWSWOMAN 2: Now new questions
are being raised about whether

his first trial
was actually a fair one.

I've always been optimistic
because I'm a great believer,

uh, in justice.

As far as I'm concerned,

this is much ado about nothing.

It's close to being farcical.

I'm honored
to be married to him.

I'm honored to be in his corner,

and do anything I can
to help the truth.

It was quite a scene.
It was very interesting.

You know, uh, Matlock‐‐
the front of that building

is where the series was always
filmed at.

Jeffrey MacDonald was there.

He was not
what I had remembered.

He was a little, tiny,
shrunk‐up man

wi‐with a prison haircut,

and he looked helpless.

It was like
he was completely lost.

The handsome guy
at the trial in 1979‐‐

well‐groomed and everything‐‐
and now look at him.

Looks like

the portrait of Dorian Gray.

(distant whispering)

GORDON WIDENHOUSE: Would you
state your name for the record?

MARY:
My name is Mary Wood Britt.

WIDENHOUSE: And were you
married at one time

‐to Jimmy Britt?
‐Yes, I was.

WIDENHOUSE:
Do you remember when

the MacDonald trial started

in federal court?

MARY:
Yes, I do.

Jim worked the trial
quite a bit.

WIDENHOUSE:
What was his primary job?

MARY:
He was Deputy U. S. Marshal.

WIDENHOUSE:
Do you feel like

the trial had sort of
been emotionally adverse

or bad impact on you?

MARY:
Yeah, it...

Well, one thing I do remember

that happened
during the trial.

I'd wake up during the night,

and he was not in the bed.

And I got up
and went looking for him,

and he was out
in the side yard.

He was very, very emotional,
very upset.

(phone ringing)

WIDENHOUSE:
Did you know Mr. Britt was
going to contact Wade Smith?

MARY:
No.

(phone ringing)

For years,
people would say to me,

who‐who worked with him,

"Wade, Jim Britt
has some information

he needs to give you."

And I would say, "Well,
tell him to give it to me."

It was like

a little bird pecking on an egg,
needed to get out.

I said, "Well, Jim,

"I need to put you under oath.

Let me be a lawyer."

Had him swear on the Bible
to tell the truth,

and I had him tell the story.

I then had him polygraphed.

And he passed.
He passed the polygraph.

JIMMY BRITT:
I, Jimmy B. Britt, was one of

the United States Marshals
assigned to the trial

of Jeffrey MacDonald in 1979.

I was assigned to travel
to assume custody of a witness

by the name
of Helena Stoeckley.

I picked up Ms. Stoeckley
up at the county jail

in Greenville, South Carolina

and drove her back to Raleigh.

During the course of the
travel, without any prompting

from me whatsoever,

Ms. Stoeckley brought up
the matter of the trial

of Mr. MacDonald.

She told me that she,
in fact, along with others,

was in Jeffrey MacDonald's home
on the night

of the MacDonald murders.

I knew at the time that what

Ms. Stoeckley had said
was very important.

I remember her words clearly.

And they're among
the most important words

I've ever heard in my life.

(whirring)

‐SMERLING:
Did you believe Jimmy Britt?
‐Yes.

(indistinct chatter)

BRITT:
At the courthouse,

I escorted Ms. Stoeckley
to the eighth floor

to the United States Attorney's
office.

(door creaking)

As I recall,
Mr. Blackburn sat behind a desk

that was set at an angle

in the northeast corner
of the office.

Helena Stoeckley sat
at the center chair

in the front of the desk,

and I sat over to the side
next to the window.

SMITH:
Mr. Britt told me

that he was with Mr. Blackburn
and Helena Stoeckley,

and, uh,
Mr. Blackburn told Helena

that if she said

what she had been saying, that

he would indict her for murder.

♪♪ ♪♪

WIDENHOUSE:
Do you recall

whether anything
unusual happened

at the end of the trial?

MARY:
Yes.

Jim came home from work early,

which was very unusual,
and I said,

"You know, what‐what is it?"
And he said,

"They found Jeffrey MacDonald
guilty,"

and that they told him
to lock him up.

And he said, "I was not doing
any more of the dirty work.

I was going home,"
and he said, "I left."

Moving testimony
from the widow of Jimmy Britt,

the federal marshal‐‐

this was the crucial
defense witness in 1979,

threatened by the prosecution.

The justice system
has its flaws,

but I believe
that when all of the evidence

of this case is presented,

that it will be absolutely clear

there was a miscarriage
of justice in 1979.

This man'll be set free.

Day two of a court hearing
weighing potential new evidence

in the infamous murder case
of Jeffrey MacDonald.

This guy may be getting
out of jail, folks.

NEWSMAN:
Lawyers for Jeffrey MacDonald

are building much of their case
on a sworn statement

made in 2005 by a now‐deceased
federal marshal.

That marshal, Jimmy Britt,

claimed the lead prosecutor
in MacDonald's

1979 trial threatened
to charge a defense witness

with murder if she testified
that she had anything to do

with killing
MacDonald's family.

Do you think
that Britt overheard

Blackburn threaten Helena?

How the hell do I know?

Do I think Blackburn threatened
Helena Stoeckley?

Yeah.

If I'm Blackburn,

you're worried!

This woman takes the stand,
she might

destroy your case
or she might weaken your case

in such a way that
the jury can't convict, so...

what do you do?

‐Mr. Smerling?
‐(chuckles)

(indistinct chatter)

BLACKBURN:
I go down there.

There's a lot of people there.

News media from
all over everywhere.

And, uh...

I testified.

JOHN BRUCE:
The next witness we would like

to call is Mr. Jim Blackburn.

An FBI agent friend of mine
comes up and says,

"Jim, they're gonna try
to kill you."

He was right.

BRUCE:
Uh, Mr. Blackburn?

‐Yes.
‐Did you get into some trouble?

‐I got into a lot of trouble.
‐Did the trouble result

in your conviction of crimes?

Yes.

Here's something to ponder
in this particular case,

and it'll be discussed
during these ten days.

Number one, the prosecutor is

a disbarred attorney
right now for fraud.

He has psychiatric issues.
I don't know when they started.

‐I know that...
‐You know that for a fact?

Well, that's what
the basis of his felony

convictions was
that he was driven to...

The prosecutor was
convicted of felonies?

12 felony counts and he spent
time in federal prison.

I had trouble
telling clients no.

I really did.

And got where I made stuff up.

You were writing an order
that you knew was false

when you were writing it?

‐Yes.
‐Those are crimes

that involve
false representations?

‐Yes.
‐Don't they?

And you knew they were wrong
when you did it, didn't you?

‐Yes.
‐And that's really where things

‐completely fall apart?
‐It is.

I'm not proud of it at all.

It's awful.

I was a good lawyer

for a long time
with a stellar reputation.

And then I didn't have it.

Let me just say this, Steve.

I know as well as anybody
in this courtroom

the consequences
of doing these things.

I want you to know I would
never in a million years

say something
from this witness stand

that was untrue
to keep Dr. MacDonald

or anybody else
in any situation

because it just
is not worth it.

BRUCE:
Now, in 1979,
you were representing

the United States government,
which was the adversary

of Jeffrey MacDonald
in this case, is that right?

BLACKBURN:
Yes.

I'm sitting opposite Helena.

We introduce ourselves,
who we are.

I remember saying to her,
"Helena, were you there?

Did you have anything
to do with this case?"

And she says to me,

"No, I was not there."

And then you can hear
the air go out of the room.

Everybody sort of relaxes.

So I follow up, I say,

"Did you recognize any of the
scenes in this photograph?"

The answer was no.
I asked her, "Have you

ever been to that house?"
She said no.

I said, "Do you know
anything about that?" "No."

"Who do you think did it?"
"Dr. MacDonald."

You know, it just went one
right after the other.

And finally, at one point,
she turns to me, she says,

"Mr. Blackburn, is there any
evidence that I was there?"

And I said,
"No, Helena, there's not.

"The only evidence
that you were there

are your own statements."

BRUCE:
Did you at any time
during the interview

of Helena Stoeckley
threaten to prosecute her

for the murders
of Jeffrey MacDonald's family?

No, I never did that.

BRUCE:
Were there any people

other than the assistant
U. S. attorneys

and the U. S. attorney and
Helena Stoeckley in the room

during the interview?

BLACKBURN:
No.

He was never in the room.

Never.

We would not have asked him
to be in the room.

It is absolutely untrue.

And another word for untrue
is a lie.

Prosecutors will call more
witnesses today at a hearing

in the so‐called
Fatal Vision case.

A former Green Beret doctor

convicted of killing
his pregnant wife

and two daughters
fighting for a new trial

more than 40 years
after the crime.

REPORTER: A big part of the
current MacDonald hearing

revolves around a statement
by former marshal Jimmy Britt.

Britt claimed he picked up
Helena Stoeckley

and brought her to Raleigh.

He said Stoeckley told him

she thought she was
in the apartment

and her friends murdered
his wife and daughters.

This afternoon,
former prosecutor Jim Blackburn

took the stand to cast doubt

on one of the keys
to the defense case.

BRUCE: Mr. Blackburn,
did there come a time

during the trial that

the presence of Helena
Stoeckley became an issue?

BLACKBURN:
Yes, she was to be arrested

and brought back
to North Carolina to testify

as a material witness
in the case.

BRUCE:
And what were
the circumstances?

BLACKBURN:
Well, the circumstances were

that, uh, I think
she had been located.

Pickens County Jail is
what I've been told.

BRUCE:
Jimmy Britt says he traveled

from Raleigh to South Carolina

to transport Helena Stoeckley

back to Raleigh during
the MacDonald trial.

(bell dings)

BLACKBURN:
Jimmy Britt,

who claimed that he drove her
and that she confessed

and also told him
about meeting with me.

He didn't drive her.

That trip never happened.

The way they found out

who did drive her‐‐

well, Pickens County Jail

is an old county.

And the paper records showed

who it was.

BRUCE:
The true facts are that Britt
was not given the task at all

to transport her
from South Carolina.

What is the evidence of this?

Now I'd like to call
my next witness.

‐Would you state your name, sir?
‐Dennis Meehan.

BRUCE:
Were you given
any assignment in connection

with that transportation
of Helena Stoeckley?

‐Yes, I was.
‐And what was that assignment?

MEEHAN:
To, uh, transfer her from
Charlotte, North Carolina

to Raleigh, North Carolina.

BRUCE:
What was the exact spot where
you were supposed to meet?

MEEHAN:
It was at the intersection
of, uh,

I‐77, I‐85.

BRUCE:
Now, when you got
to the meeting point,

was the person that you were
meeting already there?

MEEHAN:
Yes, I believe they were. Yeah.

BRUCE:
Can you describe him?

MEEHAN:
He was a tall, uh, Black man.

BRUCE:
All right, what happened
after you met at the,

uh, place there
at the intersection?

MEEHAN:
We switched out restraints.
I placed her in the car.

And we parted directly
to the Wake County Jail.

BRUCE:
Now, was Deputy U. S. Marshal
Jimmy Britt

involved in the transport
from Charlotte to Raleigh?

MEEHAN:
No.

BRUCE:
No further questions,
Your Honor.

Jimmy Britt,
unfortunately, was a liar.

The trip from South Carolina
to North Carolina never existed.

If a man cannot tell
the truth about one thing,

how can we consider his evidence
on something else?

REPORTER:
Do you think
the judge will believe

the affidavits from Mr. Britt
or Mr. Blackburn?

If anyone was to go
into Mr. Britt's, um...

(smacks lips)
reputation as a marshal,

all you have to do
is look that up.

He was one of the top,
most respected marshals.

Nothing on his record.
(stammering)

I ask you to look up
Mr. Britt's record.

BRUCE: Your relationship
with Jimmy Britt

was one of supervisor

‐to subordinate, is that right?
‐Yes.

BRUCE:
How would you characterize him
as an employee?

(chuckles)
An attention seeker.

BRUCE:
Would you state your name, sir?

BERRYHILL:
I'm William I. Berryhill, Jr.

BRUCE:
Did you get to know Jimmy Britt

as an employee
in your marshal's office?

BERRYHILL:
I knew him extremely well.

BRUCE:
Now, did you have
problems with him

when he was under
your supervision?

BERRYHILL:
Constantly.

I would say he was
a‐a very marginal employee.

I found, uh, Jimmy Britt

to be rather large in ego
and, uh, rather small

when it came to veracity.

(bell dings)

BRUCE:
Jimmy Britt had nothing to do

with the transportation
of Helena Stoeckley.

The one contact
that the evidence shows

that Jimmy Britt actually had

with Helena Stoeckley
was transporting her

seven and a half blocks
from Wake County Jail

to the federal building.

I submit that it strains
all credulity

that during that
seven‐and‐a‐half‐block ride,

that Helena Stoeckley decided
to bare her soul

and confess
to the MacDonald murders

to Jimmy Britt,
who she had never met

before that day.

REPORTER:
Kathryn, you want to talk
a little about

how you feel
about this afternoon

and how testimony went?

The prosecution had
a pretty big day.

I don't think so.
I think everything went

exactly as I expected.

I knew what they were
going to say

and who was gonna say what
and so forth.

Um, what do you think
the defense counsel

now needs to do to keep their,
you know, claim alive

and to sway the judge?

I don't think we've‐‐
I don't think

our claim has gone anywhere.

And I‐I don't look at it
from that perspective at all.

And now we're gonna turn next
to the infamous murder case

and the woman who is fighting
for the release

of the convicted murderer
she married

as he is serving
three life sentences.

‐It's nice to have you here.
‐Thank you so much.

♪♪ ♪♪

KATHRYN: I put about a thousand
miles on the car every week.

REPORTER:
Three times a week,
this woman makes

the 140‐mile drive

from her home
outside of Washington D. C.

KATHRYN:
He's just so warm,

and he's so kind
and so smart, and...

that love of life‐‐
I think that is something

I really gravitated to.

You don't think
you're being duped?

Oh, absolutely not.
(chuckles)

When I found out that
he and Kathryn MacDonald

were married,
I called the prison to ask,

"How can you allow this?"

I was mad.

I said, "I think you should
have taken into consideration

that he's a widower
because he killed his wife."

I got to hang up at that point.

Is there something about you
that had you

go that direction in your life?

No. I think it's something
about him.

He's innocent.

LARRY KING: Do you think
you're gonna win this?

I have every confidence that,

if there is justice,

if someone
will just listen to us,

then we will win
and Jeff'll come home.

Thanks, Kathryn.

‐Thank you so much.
‐Mm‐hmm.

Kathryn MacDonald, the wife
of Captain Jeffrey MacDonald.

I'll see better
without my glasses.

Uh, an affidavit drafted by...

Hart Miles' law firm

on behalf of Kathryn MacDonald.

Uh, this was witnessed
and then signed by my mother.

EUGENE:
Sure.

Uh, "I am the mother
of Helena Stoeckley Davis,

"who is now deceased.

"I was very close
to my daughter

"and held her confidences.

"After the murders of Jeffrey
MacDonald's wife and children,

"my daughter wanted
to set the record straight

"about the MacDonald murders,
and knew that Dr. MacDonald

was innocent."

♪♪ ♪♪

NEWSWOMAN:
Potential bombshell testimony

from one Eugene Stoeckley,
who claims his sister confessed

she was present
at the killings.

Helena Stoeckley died in 1983.

WIDENHOUSE:
Could you state your name
for the record?

Uh, Eugene Bernard Stoeckley.

SMERLING:
What did you think of Eugene?

I thought he was
a little nervous on the stand.

My first thought was maybe
he had restless legs syndrome.

(laughs):
Because he kept moving so much.

I think he thought he was doing

what he should do,
and that's what he did.

WIDENHOUSE:
Good morning, Mr. Stoeckley.

Did there come a time
when your mother

was no longer able to live
on her own?

EUGENE:
Yes.

My mother's health
started deteriorating,

and physically
things were taking its toll.

She had emphysema.

I remember sitting there
in that room

for about three days
around the clock.

One evening in there with her,
you know, she said

that Helena
kind of bared her soul.

Knowing that her time was short,

she felt quite sure of it,
knew she was dying.

WIDENHOUSE:
What did she tell you

when you asked her
about the MacDonald issue?

EUGENE:
She said that Helena
was there...

‐that night.
‐Okay, and by‐by "there,"

what did she mean?

EUGENE: Present at the house
the night of the murders.

She told me that she believed

that Dr. MacDonald
shouldn't be in prison.

So I asked Mother, I said, uh,
"Have you told anybody?"

You know, and she said,
"Well, nobody's gonna listen."

And I said,
"What if somebody would?"

(sniffles) And she just,
she said, "Well, I'd tell 'em.

You know, tell 'em
what she told me."

The last thing I wanted was
to draw attention

to the remaining
family members,

but I felt
somehow morally obligated

to tell somebody.

BRUCE:
Thank you.

BRUCE:
Now, I believe you indicated

on direct examination
that after your mother

told you this, it weighed
heavily on your mind.

‐That's correct.
‐And you decided

not to call anybody connected
with law enforcement,

is that right?

‐That's correct.
‐And instead

you went on the Internet and
found the MacDonald website?

That's correct.

EUGENE:
So, I contacted Kathryn‐‐

I think it was online,
and I saw she had a website‐‐

and her response was immediate.

And at the same time,

I think she immediately
contacted the attorneys.

(over phone): Helena confessed
to her own mother.

Why would she say that?

There was nothing wrong
with that woman mentally.

She was sharp as a tack.

And our lawyers were there.

And, you know, a deathbed
confession is considered,

you know, irrefutable.

CLARENCE:
I got a call

from Gene late one night.

He said, "We need to go.
I'm gonna come pick you up.

Mom's in the hospital."

She wanted
to get it off her chest

that Helena had told her
that she was there.

BRUCE: I understand
that your brother‐‐

now, this is your brother
Clarence?

‐EUGENE: Right.
‐Is it fair to say

that he was not supportive
of this effort

‐that you were undertaking?
‐Absolutely.

♪♪ ♪♪

CLARENCE:
Mrs. MacDonald showed up,

and she brought roses
and everything.

I met her.

And they went in, talked.

Here we go,
another adaption of the story.

♪♪ ♪♪

It is.

♪♪ ♪♪

The truth is like
a little chick inside a egg,

and it's pecking
and pecking and pecking,

and finally
it just breaks open.

And that's what I see

happening here.

SMERLING:
Certainly, the MacDonald camp

made it sound like she believed
that she was there.

Of course.
(chuckles)

Of course.

There's an affidavit...
from Helena's mother

saying that
she had said she was there.

WIDENHOUSE:
Can you tell us a little bit

about your sister
having been associated

with the MacDonald
investigation?

Did it have any impact

on... towards your family life
that you can recall?

Oh, absolutely,
it had an impact.

To think that anybody
that would involve themselves

with something so horrific
just for attention...

I almost saw that as worse

than actually if she
had been there as they said.

At the time,
I was ten years old,

and I avoided

most social situations where...

people would draw
the conclusion

that I was related
to Helena Stoeckley.

(sighs):
I would deny it.

You know,
it took me quite a while

into my adult life
before I was able

to quit trying to hide from it.

It was a coming of terms

with everything that I'd...
tried to hide from.

You know, that day,
I had to face it head‐on.

♪♪ ♪♪

Thinking back on it,
it was more of a...

liberating experience,
or therapy,

and it kind of set me free
in a way.

You know, it just, uh...

I needed it.

I would never deny her
as being my sister...

again.

You know, never.

CLARENCE:
I think Mom said what she said

to Gene, that Helena told her
that she was there,

so it'd be off her chest when...
when she passed.

Mom could pass...

with dignity and...

nothing held back.

I don't think

she ever believed
that she was there.

NEWSMAN: Being sought are four
suspects, including a woman

who was described
as having long blonde hair,

wearing cowboy boots,
and carrying a candle.

(siren wailing in distance)

PRINCE BEASLEY: And my captain
called me and advised me

that, uh, some army doctor's
family had been wiped out

at Fort Bragg, and they
expected he was gonna die, too.

So, uh, he said
he had a description

that the doctor had gave
to the MPs

that they had passed on to him.

He gave me the descriptions
over the telephone.

And, uh, I said,

"Well, I think I know
who you're talking about."

Tears begin to get
into her eyes then.

She says, uh,
"I think I was there."

She did not take part in
the killings, but she was there.

I think they were there.

(echoes):
I think they did it.

LESLIE COOLEY:
Your Honor,
the government would call

Raymond "Butch" Madden.

‐Good afternoon, Mr. Madden.
‐MADDEN: Good afternoon.

COOLEY: How did you come
to be involved in the case?

Uh, after the first conviction
of Dr. MacDonald,

an investigation was conducted

that was submitted to the FBI

concerning
Prince Beasley and...

Ted Gunderson,
a private investigator.

COOLEY:
Was Helena Stoeckley
interviewed by Ted Gunderson

and Prince Beasley?

‐Yes, ma'am, she was.
‐Did they make promises

to her in order to interview?

MADDEN: Th‐They promised her
the matter would, uh,

be cleared up once and for all.

Beasley also promised Helena

employment and a new identity,
if possible.

WOMAN:
Let's talk about Prince Beasley.

(chuckles): Oh. Prince.
Please don't call him Prince.

If ever I met a man who
did not deserve that title...

(chuckles)

...this was the man.

♪♪ ♪♪

He dealt strictly with Helena.

You know,
when she was in trouble,

he would help her out.

(car door opens)

And she would talk about him
all the time,

that he was always
harassing her for information.

♪♪ ♪♪

One night,
I saw her getting into his car.

(siren wailing in distance)

WOMAN:
Was she on a lot of drugs

‐back then?
‐(whispers): Oh, my God, yes.

She took all kinds of drugs.

I never knew
how she got her heroin.

I suspected

Beasley gave it to her.

If you're an informant,

you got to get paid some way.

SMERLING: Certain people in the
Fayetteville Police Department,

particularly Prince Beasley,

sort of started
this ball rolling,

uh, in a way
that we're sitting here today

because Prince Beasley's
relationship with your sister.

Yeah, he's the catalyst that,
uh, put it into her head,

all this stuff,

and‐and he told her stuff

that somebody'd had...
had to have been there

to know.

She was their informant,
she wore a floppy hat.

So, okay, "We can solve
this murder real quick."

(indistinct chatter)

CONNER:
Could Helena be influenced

by Prince Beasley

to say she was there
the night of the murders? Yes.

CONNER:
I think Beasley had her
in such a noose that

she would do anything for him.

GUNDERSON:
Prince Beasley‐‐

he's been on this investigation

since the morning
of the murders.

He basically has bird‐dogged
the case step by step.

And if it wasn't for him‐‐
there's no question about it‐‐

we wouldn't be
where we are right here today.

COOLEY:
Mr. Madden, when we left off,

we were talking
about your interview

‐with Ted Gunderson
as part of...
‐MADDEN: Yes.

COOLEY:
May I have page 815,

starting
at the third paragraph?

If you could just read for us

your conversation
with Gunderson?

Myself:
"Have you, since that time,

"actually entered into
any contractual arrangements

"with Helena Stoeckley
for a book or a movie

to be written
regarding the MacDonald case?"

Gunderson:
"Yes, I have.

I've talked
to several people about it."

COOLEY:
So he had contacted both people

in the movie industry
and in the book industry

regarding a book and a movie
on this case?

MADDEN:
Yes.

‐You‐you ready to go?
‐MAN: We're rolling.

(laughs)

We'll have to wait
till she straightens up here.

(laughing):
I can't now.

When you said
you were gonna...

All right. Okay.

What's being in a strange town
without having...

a name for yourself?

CLARENCE:
This is great. We have

our own Helter Skelter.

No, Helena, uh, has never lied
to me that I know of.

Only on one occasion.

She is always very truthful.

She has always been.

My family out there.

My family name.

(indistinct chatter)

‐(beep)
‐MAN: Rolling. Room tone.

MAN 2:
Room tone.

SMERLING:
Prince Beasley‐‐

he's the first one who says,

"I can pay the rent."
(laughing)

"Floppy hat? I know somebody
who wears a floppy hat."

Yes.

He starts the ball rolling.

This may prove
a different kind of principle‐‐

that if you wait long enough

and you involve enough people

in telling any story,

you're gonna end up
with a mess on your hands.

Why now,
so many years after the fact,

do we continue to argue
about this case?

We know, you and I know,

that there has
to be an answer here.

Jeffrey MacDonald
either killed his family,

or someone else did.

I was asleep on the couch,

and, uh,
the next thing that, uh,

is clear at all is that
I was awakened by my wife's...

...screaming,

and I saw three people
at the foot of the couch.

The‐the first three people
that I saw were male.

The Black male
to my left raised something,

and he swung a club at me,
and I threw my hand up.

And he hit me in the head
with the club.

He drove me back to the, uh...

...the couch.

I struggled back up.

The struggle then continued
for several more minutes.

He struck me again
with the bat.

The white males
in front of me began,

I thought, pummeling me,
and in the struggle...

I just, for literally
a mini‐second, saw a glint.

The light must have just hit
the blade just right,

and I just saw it
for a split second,

and I thought,
"Ah, I'm getting stabbed."

The top must have been
jerked over my head

as they were trying
to pull me off the couch.

And then became unconscious.

When I awoke
at the end of the couch,

I never really got out
of the living room.

SMERLING:
Can I play you a piece
of Helena's interview?

Sure.

Okay? Let's give it a shot.

‐(beep)
‐MAN: We're rolling.

(indistinct chatter)

Helena, tell us what happened
from the time

you entered the house
that night.

I entered the house
with another member of the cult.

We had to struggle
with the door,

which is the reason
I lit the candle.

We went in. There were
three members in there already,

talking to Dr. MacDonald.

I thought
they were simply asking

for drugs
or something like that.

What happened at the couch
as you approached the couch?

When I went over there,
MacDonald was struggling

with another member, because

by that time, they had already
argued about the drugs.

And I said something
about leaving him alone

or something like that.

And they were still arguing

about giving him some speed
or something like that.

GUNDERSON:
About giving Dr. MacDonald
some speed?

No, about getting some speed
from him.

The member of the cult
wanted some speed.

GUNDERSON:
Mm‐hmm. There were three mem...

members of the cult
arguing with him?

There was only one
that was asking for it,

but there was two others
standing there.

Did‐did they have any weapons?

(sighs heavily)

No, they were using
their fists then.

GUNDERSON:
Wh‐What happened after that?

HELENA:
Uh, he started arguing,

and he said
he would go to the phone

and call someone.

He tried to get
to the phone, and...

Did they allow him up
from the couch?

‐Pardon?
‐Did they allow him

‐to get up from the couch?
‐Yes, sir.

‐Okay.
‐He tried to get to the phone,

and when he went over there,

we thought
that he was trying to do that.

But the men that were involved

were Army personnel,

and they realized
he was calling the MPs.

And that's when
the fighting ensued.

GUNDERSON:
And they fought

in the living room
near the phone?

HELENA:
They told him to get back

in the living room.

They went back to the couch.

He sat down,
but he was knocked unconscious.

GUNDERSON:
How was he knocked unconscious?

‐One of the members did it.
‐With what?

‐His fist.
‐Was there a club used?

Not at that time.

SMERLING:
So either...

she's got her story wrong,

or Jeffrey's got
his story wrong.

What do you think?

I think that Jeffrey's account
is suspect,

and...

it really... seems

internally inconsistent

and not entirely believable.

Do I believe that means

that it...

there were no intruders
in the house?

Uh... maybe.

Maybe it could be
an elaborate attempt

to cover up his own
participation in the crime.

But...

I don't know.

Do you think,
from that story there,

that she was in the house?

I don't know.

Does that tell me
that she wasn't there?

Eh, not really.

One thing that we know
about human beings‐‐

they have
an almost infinite capacity

to believe anything.

And people are endlessly
suggestible.

But it goes both ways,
of course.

If we don't like a story‐‐

and I'm not any different from
anyone else in this regard‐‐

we can say, "It's confabulation,
it's confused, it's unreliable,"

and if we do like it,
we can say, "Oh, it is reliable.

"It isn't confabulation.

We can depend on it."

People take sides.

People respond to one narrative

versus another.

We are compelled by narratives.

Much more by narratives
than by evidence.

Evidence

invariably takes...
second fiddle

to narrative.

Do you think you're still a
reliable narrator in this story?

I never was a reliable narrator.

I'm not immune.

I'm as fucked‐up
as the next guy.

Take my word for it.

I always have thought that
a sign of intelligence

is never, ever
to convince yourself

that you know something
when you don't.

To be able to say
"I don't know,

"I don't understand,
I'm confused,

I'm fucked‐up.
Have mercy on me, please."

There is no way that
those people were in that house

and didn't leave evidence,

and the government record
shows the evidence.

It shows brown hair
in my wife's hand.

Captioned by
Media Access Group at WGBH
access.wgbh.org