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CLAPPER LOADER: Errol Morris
interview, take one.
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Soft sticks. Mark.
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So, what brings you here today?
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(Smerling laughs)
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All right, I want to start
with your story
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inside the story,
like you do in the book.
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Um...
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Christmas 1991‐‐
could we start there?
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Can you remember that day?
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I do remember the day.
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♪♪ ♪♪
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MORRIS:Early that morning,
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I suggested to my wifewe should just go up
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and look at the JeffreyMacDonald crime scene together.
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Um...
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what better way
to spend Christmas?
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♪♪ ♪♪
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I get interested in stuff
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because I get botheredby stuff.
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And what's really interestingabout the MacDonald murder case
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is how many, many,
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many people
have gone back over this.
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It's a case that resistsdefinitive explanations.
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♪♪ ♪♪
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Wandering in that wildernessof conflicting evidence
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and interpretations,
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of mistakes, of errors...
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Certainly in this case,
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the mystery isabout what happened
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in that house.
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I went into it with the hopethat I could crack it...
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...that I could cometo some kind of conclusion.
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But you don't know
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whether truth is going to be
difficult to find
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unless you try to find it.
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The wife and two youngdaughters of an Army doctor
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were found dead in their homein Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
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MIKE WALLACE:You may remember the crime,back in 1970...
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One of America's mostsensational murder cases...
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...one of the most bizarremurder cases...
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The most complicatedmurder case in history.
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MacDonald says the murdererswere three men and a woman,
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shouting, "Acid is great!Kill all the pigs!"
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It's a baffling story, the moreyou begin to look into it...
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NEWSWOMAN:Jeffrey MacDonald's life became
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the subject of a book,a popular miniseries...
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...a television movie
called Fatal Vision.
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NEWSMAN: The bestsellerportrayed MacDonald
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as a cold‐blooded killer.
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NEWSMAN 2:Today MacDonald was sentenced
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to three life terms in prison.
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(echoing thud)
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MAN 2: Something really,really bad happened here.
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‐It was a miscarriageof justice.‐MacDONALD: Well...
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I cannot overcome Fatal Vision.
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MORRIS:What happens when a narrative
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takes the place of reality?
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It's almost as if nothingreally happened in history
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unless it has been recordedin a movie.
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Or in a television series.
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NEWSWOMAN 2: A new book byacclaimed author and filmmaker
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Errol Morris says that the casemay be more complicated
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‐than previously thought.‐MacDONALD: I did not...
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hurt my wife and my children.
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WOMAN: That eveningI was wearing a blonde wig
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‐and floppy hat.‐MAN 3: An innocent man
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‐is in jail today.‐WOMAN 2: The man is guilty
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‐as can be.‐I am innocent.
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He's lucky I haven't gone outand killed him.
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MacDONALD (echoes):I am not that monster.
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(phone dialing)
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(line ringing)
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(phone ringing)
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MORRIS: How old were youwhen this happened?
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MICA: That was 1970‐‐I would have been 23.
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I was an MP at Fort Bragg,
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1968 to 1971.
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And I was one of the first MPs
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in the house at 544 Castle Drive
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the night
of the MacDonald murders.
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MICA:February 17, 1970,
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was, uh, quiet.
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It was drizzly, rainy, cold.
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(distorted police radiotransmission)
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‐(siren wailing)
‐About 3:40 in the morning,
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we got a radio callfor a disturbance.
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When we get to the call,
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couple cars are already there.
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I run into Richard Tevere.
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We're standing on the stepsin front of the entrance
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to Castle Drive, and I believed
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that there was a disturbance
and possibly a stabbing.
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‐(siren approaching in distance)
‐We couldn't...
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gain entry to the house,
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so I took my flashlightand I went around the back.
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The rear door was ajar.
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I pulled out my weapon,
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and I put a roundin the chamber...
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not knowing if there wassomebody still in the house.
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I took one step in to the...
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what was, I guess, the bedroom.
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There was blood on the wall,blood on the ceiling,
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blood all over the place.
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That's when I saw her,a woman lying on the ground,
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covered with blood,
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and, uh,a male lying next to her,
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who I didn't know at the timewas Jeffrey MacDonald.
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At first I thought
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it was a homicide‐suicide.
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Uh, but then he started to move.
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I got down next to him
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and started giving himmouth‐to‐mouth resuscitation.
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He wakes up, and he's saying,"Check my kids, check my kids.
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I heard my kids."
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TEVERE:From the master bedroom,
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we just took a few steps,
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looked into the first,smaller bedroom,
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and I could see the girl.
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She was lifeless.
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And then I wentinto the second bedroom,
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and I saw, again,
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a very young girl, lifeless.
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There was blood dripping down
the side of the bed,
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and there was a puddle of blood
on the floor.
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I, uh...
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never in a million yearsexpected to...
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walk in on something like that.
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So it was a lot to, really,
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process at the time.
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IVORY:Within five minutes,
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we were at the house.
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There was an Army ambulance
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and a number of MP cars
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already there.
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In the house,it looked like the living room
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had been caught upin some sort of struggle.
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There was a man on a gurneybeing wheeled out.
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He was unconscious.
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There was a female on the floorof the master bedroom.
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There was a blue pajama toplaying across her chest.
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That was strange.
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And then, I noticed,in the headboard
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in the master bed,
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there was a bloody imprintof the word "pig."
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HODGES:It's the worst thing,
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in my 53 years
in law enforcement,
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that I've ever walked into.
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Uh, it was a gruesome scene
to see a, uh,
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a mother and two daughters
mutilated like they were.
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And, uh, it's, uh...
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it's a s‐‐ it's a scene
that you ain't gonna forget.
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Colette MacDonald was stabbed
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multiple times
in the neck and chest.
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Both arms were broken.
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And she was pregnant.
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The older girlhad been stabbed.
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And had a blunt instrument wound
to her head.
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And the younger girl had beenstabbed numerous times.
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IVORY:My partner did a 360
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around the house.
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He went out and he came back
in and he said,
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"I think I found
the murder weapons."
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There was a club, a knife
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and an ice pick.
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(siren wailing in distance)
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HODGES:At that point,I went to the hospital
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to try to interview MacDonald.
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When I got there,I was briefed by a doctor.
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GEMMA:There were some scrapes
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on his abdomenand on his chest,
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some small puncture wounds
which didn't seem
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to be very serious at all.
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It's not life‐threatening.
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He was...
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in no real acute distress.
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HODGES:When I went in,we identified who we were,
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and said, "What can you tell usabout what happened?"
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He said that he and Colettehad been listening to a record.
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He dozed off on the couch,and she had went to bed.
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He heard Colette hollering,
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"Jeff, Jeff,why are they doing this to me?"
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He woke up.
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Hippies had broke into the house
and attacked him and his family.
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He'd seen two white males,
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black guy in an Army jacket,
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and a woman with long blondehair and a white floppy hat,
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wearing boots.
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And she was saying,
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"Acid is groovy,
acid is groovy,"
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and was holding a candle.
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He had tried to fight 'em off.
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Somehow, my pajama top,
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I don't knowif it was ripped forward
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or pulled over my head.
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‐COLETTE (echoing): Jeff!
‐MacDONALD: All of a sudden,it was in my way.
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‐I couldn't get my hand free.
‐COLETTE: Why are they doing
this to me?!
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MacDONALD:I was grappling with him,and I saw,
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you know, a‐a blade.
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I‐I really didn't even defendmyself.
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It was really too‐too fast.
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KIMBERLY (echoing):Daddy! Daddy!
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And all this time,
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I was hearing screams.
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KIMBERLY (echoing):Daddy! Daddy!
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♪♪♪♪
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Next thing I rememberwas lying in the hallway
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at the endof the hallway floor.
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And I‐I went down,um, to the bedroom.
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My wife was lyingon‐on the floor,
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next to the bed.
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I tried to give herartificial respiration,
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but the air was...
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was coming out of her chest.
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So, uh...
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I went, picked up the phone,
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and, uh, I saidmy name was Captain MacDonald
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and I was at 544 Castle Drive
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and I needed a doctorand an ambulance.
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I dropped the phone,
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and I went backto check the kids,
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check their pulses and stuffand, uh...
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(inhales)
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I don't know.
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It kept hitting methat, really, nothing
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had been solvedwhen I called the operator.
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So, I went in, you know,into the kitchen,
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picked up that phoneand a sergeant came on.
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He said, "Can I help you?"
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So I told him that I neededa doctor and an ambulance,
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that some peoplehad been stabbed,
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and I thoughtI was going to die.
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By this time, I was finding itreally hard to breathe,
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and, uh, and, um...
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The next thing I knew,an MP was giving me
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mouth‐to‐mouth resuscitation
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next to, next to my wife.
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What a strange, strange,
strange story.
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A product of the times,
the craziness of the times.
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Remember how violent and crazy
the '60s were.
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NIXON:Tonight, in South Vietnam,American units
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will attackthe headquarters for...
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00:15:07,021 --> 00:15:08,988
Mine eyes have seen...
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00:15:09,055 --> 00:15:11,355
Dr. Martin Luther Kinghas been shot to death.
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NEWS ANCHOR:Senator Robert Francis Kennedydied today.
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NEWS ANCHOR 2:Guardsmen opened fireon the students, killing...
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00:15:17,455 --> 00:15:20,588
MORRIS:It was a timeof confusion and anger.
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With each escalation,the world comes closer
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to the brinkof cosmic disaster.
249
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And then, we have
the Manson murders.
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NEWS ANCHOR:In a scene describedas reminiscent
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of a weird religious rite,
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five persons, including actressSharon Tate, were found dead.
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Miss Tate waseight months pregnant.
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00:15:40,421 --> 00:15:43,255
Not far away, a middle‐agedcouple was found murdered.
255
00:15:43,321 --> 00:15:46,488
MORRIS:This was one of the cases ofthe century. It's everywhere.
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NEWS ANCHOR:The word "WAR" had beencarved on his chest.
257
00:15:49,888 --> 00:15:53,321
With blood, the killer hadscrawled "Death to pigs."
258
00:15:53,388 --> 00:15:59,221
MORRIS:The Mansons are arrestedin December of 1969,
259
00:15:59,288 --> 00:16:03,055
just months before theMacDonald murders occurred,
260
00:16:03,121 --> 00:16:06,121
in February of 1970.
261
00:16:06,188 --> 00:16:09,121
The Army has suspects,but no prime suspects
262
00:16:09,188 --> 00:16:11,121
in the bizarre murdersof the wife
263
00:16:11,188 --> 00:16:13,488
and two young daughtersof an Army doctor.
264
00:16:13,555 --> 00:16:18,088
Captain Jeffrey MacDonaldwas reported in fair condition.
265
00:16:18,155 --> 00:16:19,455
TEVERE:We immediately started looking
266
00:16:19,521 --> 00:16:22,255
for these crazed peoplerunning around Fayetteville,
267
00:16:22,321 --> 00:16:25,388
emulating what had happenedin California.
268
00:16:29,255 --> 00:16:32,755
It put the entire Fort Braggand Fayetteville area
269
00:16:32,821 --> 00:16:35,221
into a, you know, panic alert.
270
00:16:36,188 --> 00:16:38,555
Everybody was concerned about,
271
00:16:38,621 --> 00:16:41,355
you know, "Would they come backinto the housing area again?"
272
00:16:41,421 --> 00:16:43,388
You know, "What do I do
to protect myself?"
273
00:16:43,455 --> 00:16:45,488
What about my family?
What about my kids?"
274
00:16:47,521 --> 00:16:49,455
HODGES:When I went home, my wife
275
00:16:49,521 --> 00:16:52,921
had a butcher knife anda police pistol under a pillow.
276
00:16:52,988 --> 00:16:54,688
She figured if it was hippies,
I guess,
277
00:16:54,755 --> 00:16:57,755
that they were still running
loose out there, you know?
278
00:16:57,821 --> 00:17:01,321
And if they did it one time,
they could do it again.
279
00:17:02,521 --> 00:17:07,155
Fort Bragg is partof Fayetteville.
280
00:17:07,221 --> 00:17:11,355
Fayetteville was called"Fayettenam" at that time.
281
00:17:11,421 --> 00:17:15,555
TEVERE:It was a melting pot for a lotof different scenarios.
282
00:17:15,621 --> 00:17:17,721
There were hippies,and there were a lot of guys
283
00:17:17,788 --> 00:17:21,388
that came back from Vietnam
that had drug issues.
284
00:17:26,421 --> 00:17:29,021
HODGES:There was an areacalled Haymount Hill
285
00:17:29,088 --> 00:17:32,155
that was really bad for drugs.
286
00:17:33,355 --> 00:17:35,055
We went there and rounded up
287
00:17:35,121 --> 00:17:37,455
a bunch of hippiesthat halfway matched
288
00:17:37,521 --> 00:17:39,521
the descriptionthat MacDonald had given.
289
00:17:41,455 --> 00:17:43,755
And none of them deniedthey were on drugs,
290
00:17:43,821 --> 00:17:45,255
but they all denied
291
00:17:45,321 --> 00:17:47,621
having anything to dowith the murders.
292
00:17:47,688 --> 00:17:51,621
Or knowing anybody
fitting the descriptions.
293
00:17:55,621 --> 00:17:57,621
Then, her name came up.
294
00:17:59,655 --> 00:18:01,855
Helena Stoeckley.
295
00:18:03,621 --> 00:18:07,188
A city police officernamed Prince Beasley
296
00:18:07,255 --> 00:18:10,921
clamed that Helenafit this description.
297
00:18:10,988 --> 00:18:14,288
I had seen Helena
on many occasions,
298
00:18:14,355 --> 00:18:16,521
with these other people
that, uh,
299
00:18:16,588 --> 00:18:19,555
Dr. MacDonald gave
the description of.
300
00:19:13,655 --> 00:19:16,288
IVORY: Prince Beasleycalled my office,
301
00:19:16,355 --> 00:19:19,055
so I made it a point to go down
and talk to him.
302
00:19:20,921 --> 00:19:24,121
When I got down there,she was there.
303
00:19:25,721 --> 00:19:31,388
I interviewed herand found no leads at all.
304
00:19:31,455 --> 00:19:36,555
Absolutely no information
that would tie her to the case.
305
00:19:44,155 --> 00:19:48,221
It was just‐‐added more to the confusion.
306
00:20:03,288 --> 00:20:04,555
IVORY:It was...
307
00:20:04,621 --> 00:20:07,188
about halfway
through the first day.
308
00:20:11,088 --> 00:20:13,821
At that point,we went back to the house
309
00:20:13,888 --> 00:20:18,021
to take a closer lookat the crime scene...
310
00:20:20,588 --> 00:20:22,021
...to find out
311
00:20:22,088 --> 00:20:25,288
what the story was,
what actually happened there.
312
00:20:27,121 --> 00:20:32,355
HODGES:It didn't really add up toanybody broke into the house.
313
00:20:32,421 --> 00:20:37,021
What had happened,
it happened inside that house.
314
00:20:51,588 --> 00:20:54,888
When you get right down to it,MacDonald's the only one
315
00:20:54,955 --> 00:20:57,521
that possibly could've done it.
316
00:21:03,655 --> 00:21:07,655
CER:
This is CBS News
with Walter Cronkite.
317
00:21:07,721 --> 00:21:11,121
The Army has changed GreenBeret doctor Jeffrey MacDonald
318
00:21:11,188 --> 00:21:12,821
with the murdersof his pregnant wife
319
00:21:12,888 --> 00:21:14,255
and their two young daughters
320
00:21:14,321 --> 00:21:16,655
of Fort Bragg, North Carolinalast February.
321
00:21:16,721 --> 00:21:18,488
It said the casewill be referred...
322
00:21:18,555 --> 00:21:20,188
NEWS ANCHOR:A military Article 32 hearing
323
00:21:20,255 --> 00:21:22,688
is scheduled to beginat Fort Bragg
324
00:21:22,755 --> 00:21:25,955
with Special Forces captainJeffrey MacDonald.
325
00:21:26,021 --> 00:21:28,888
NEWS ANCHOR 2:An Article 32is the military equivalent
326
00:21:28,955 --> 00:21:31,955
of a civilianpreliminary hearing.
327
00:21:34,221 --> 00:21:38,121
MALLEY:I was just getting readyto leave for infantry school
328
00:21:38,188 --> 00:21:43,655
when I saw the storyabout the murder at Fort Bragg.
329
00:21:43,721 --> 00:21:45,721
I thought, "You know,he looks familiar."
330
00:21:45,788 --> 00:21:48,555
And then I read it,and I was shocked.
331
00:21:48,621 --> 00:21:51,721
I thought, "This has really...
332
00:21:51,788 --> 00:21:53,321
"got to be wrong.
333
00:21:53,388 --> 00:21:55,455
"I mean, I don't know why
it's wrong, or how it's wrong,
334
00:21:55,521 --> 00:21:58,855
"but it's got‐‐
I mean, why would Jeff MacDonald
335
00:21:58,921 --> 00:22:00,621
do something like this?"
336
00:22:00,688 --> 00:22:04,988
And I kept saying,
"I h‐‐ To me, it makes no sense,
337
00:22:05,055 --> 00:22:07,255
because I know the guy."
338
00:22:11,588 --> 00:22:15,021
Jeff was my roommatesophomore year,
339
00:22:15,088 --> 00:22:17,688
in, um, i‐in college.
340
00:22:17,755 --> 00:22:19,221
We went to Princeton,
341
00:22:19,288 --> 00:22:21,755
but Jeff left at the endof our junior year
342
00:22:21,821 --> 00:22:25,255
to go to medical school,and I went to law school.
343
00:22:25,321 --> 00:22:26,421
Y‐You could think, you know,
344
00:22:26,488 --> 00:22:28,055
"I wonder if Jeff's
got‐‐ gone crazy.
345
00:22:28,121 --> 00:22:29,955
I wonder if Jeff's taking drugs.
I wonder..."
346
00:22:30,021 --> 00:22:32,521
Y‐You know, th‐‐ all those
things you can think of,
347
00:22:32,588 --> 00:22:34,555
'cause I haven't s‐‐
I hadn't seen him in a year or‐‐
348
00:22:34,621 --> 00:22:36,155
more than a year.
349
00:22:36,221 --> 00:22:41,188
But none of that made any sense,
about the person that I knew.
350
00:22:42,888 --> 00:22:44,421
Then I got a letter from Jeff
351
00:22:44,488 --> 00:22:47,021
saying that he is gonnarequest me to be
352
00:22:47,088 --> 00:22:49,321
part of the defense team.
353
00:22:51,555 --> 00:22:56,155
I told him, "You know,I'm barely out of law school."
354
00:22:56,221 --> 00:22:58,988
He needed to havea trial lawyer.
355
00:22:59,055 --> 00:23:01,855
NEWS ANCHOR:The mother of Green Beretcaptain Jeffrey MacDonald
356
00:23:01,921 --> 00:23:05,688
has hired a lawyer to defendher 26‐year‐old son.
357
00:23:05,755 --> 00:23:08,788
The lawyer, Bernard Segal,says he has started
358
00:23:08,855 --> 00:23:11,855
his own investigationof February's slayings.
359
00:23:11,921 --> 00:23:13,388
(excited chatter)
360
00:23:13,455 --> 00:23:16,221
SEGAL:
With all my heart,
I tell every one of them
361
00:23:16,288 --> 00:23:18,955
that Jeffrey MacDonald
did not kill his family.
362
00:23:20,688 --> 00:23:24,421
MALLEY:Bernie Segal hada reputation as being
363
00:23:24,488 --> 00:23:27,188
one of the upcoming criminal
trial lawyers in Philadelphia.
364
00:23:27,255 --> 00:23:31,221
SEGAL:
He is innocent
of the charges against him.
365
00:23:34,621 --> 00:23:39,521
MORRIS:
So, Cliff, why did you sit down
to do this interview?
366
00:23:39,588 --> 00:23:42,521
You asked me.
You're the only ones who have.
367
00:23:42,588 --> 00:23:46,321
Nobody ever asked me.
I was sort of surprised.
368
00:23:51,288 --> 00:23:55,621
Article 32s are normallyquiet investigations.
369
00:23:59,288 --> 00:24:03,455
But this case was a big deal.
370
00:24:04,655 --> 00:24:06,455
And so,
371
00:24:06,521 --> 00:24:11,521
when they asked meto be the lead prosecutor,
372
00:24:11,588 --> 00:24:14,955
hot dog that I was, I said,
"Gee, that'd be wonderful."
373
00:24:15,021 --> 00:24:18,621
♪♪ ♪♪
374
00:24:21,388 --> 00:24:23,321
DOUTHAT:You've got to realize there was
375
00:24:23,388 --> 00:24:25,455
an anti‐Army feeling
at the time.
376
00:24:25,521 --> 00:24:27,055
♪♪ ♪♪
377
00:24:27,121 --> 00:24:30,088
In this casehad so much publicity.
378
00:24:30,155 --> 00:24:32,055
It was on the headlinesevery day.
379
00:24:32,121 --> 00:24:34,421
It had everything‐‐Ivy League school,
380
00:24:34,488 --> 00:24:38,255
doctor, Green Beret,all‐American boy,
381
00:24:38,321 --> 00:24:39,888
pregnant wife, children,
382
00:24:39,955 --> 00:24:42,988
homicide, and the
383
00:24:43,055 --> 00:24:46,088
pressure was
on the Army to perform.
384
00:24:50,688 --> 00:24:53,188
♪♪ ♪♪
385
00:24:53,255 --> 00:24:56,088
BEALE:This tragic murder happened,
386
00:24:56,155 --> 00:24:57,621
and it was just awful.
387
00:24:57,688 --> 00:25:00,155
But, uh, fortunately,
I was in the right place
388
00:25:00,221 --> 00:25:02,155
at the right time
and the general offered me
389
00:25:02,221 --> 00:25:04,221
the chance to be the judge.
390
00:25:07,055 --> 00:25:10,021
Of course, when I say "judge,"technically I was
391
00:25:10,088 --> 00:25:13,721
the legal advisor
to the Article 32 officer...
392
00:25:13,788 --> 00:25:16,321
Colonel Rock.
393
00:25:17,655 --> 00:25:21,088
This Article 32was
the biggest oneI've ever seen.
394
00:25:21,155 --> 00:25:25,088
We knew‐‐we being the defense team‐‐
395
00:25:25,155 --> 00:25:27,321
we're not rolling over here.
396
00:25:36,355 --> 00:25:38,688
SOMERS:I don't think any of us
397
00:25:38,755 --> 00:25:42,188
at that point had a real grasp
398
00:25:42,255 --> 00:25:46,488
of just how complex this
was going to turn out to be.
399
00:25:48,255 --> 00:25:50,988
ROCK:
This hearing will come to order.
400
00:25:53,088 --> 00:25:55,421
SOMERS:In order to establish
401
00:25:55,488 --> 00:25:57,955
what was foundfrom the beginning,
402
00:25:58,021 --> 00:26:00,055
you have to call the witnesses
403
00:26:00,121 --> 00:26:02,355
who were on the scene
at the beginning.
404
00:26:05,188 --> 00:26:07,888
And that would be Mica.
405
00:26:07,955 --> 00:26:11,088
The government callsSpecialist Fourth Class Mica.
406
00:26:12,488 --> 00:26:15,588
MICA: When they startedthe Article 32,
407
00:26:15,655 --> 00:26:18,455
I testified the 5th of July.
408
00:26:18,521 --> 00:26:20,121
It was my birthday.
409
00:26:20,188 --> 00:26:23,121
SOMERS:
What was the weather
like that morning?
410
00:26:23,188 --> 00:26:25,488
MICA:It was raining.
411
00:26:25,555 --> 00:26:28,021
It rained off and onall night long.
412
00:26:28,088 --> 00:26:29,988
SOMERS:Did you note any unusual
413
00:26:30,055 --> 00:26:31,655
pedestrians or disturbances
414
00:26:31,721 --> 00:26:34,021
in the early morningof the 17th of February
415
00:26:34,088 --> 00:26:36,521
in that Castle Drive area?
416
00:26:37,821 --> 00:26:39,555
MICA:No, sir.
417
00:26:39,621 --> 00:26:42,455
SOMERS:According toCaptain McDonald's story,
418
00:26:42,521 --> 00:26:46,855
four intruderscame into his house.
419
00:26:49,321 --> 00:26:51,155
Did you see any mud
or foreign debris
420
00:26:51,221 --> 00:26:53,755
on the floor of the hall,
which traversed the living room?
421
00:26:53,821 --> 00:26:56,155
MICA:No, sir.
422
00:26:56,221 --> 00:26:57,855
SOMERS:I was trying to establish
423
00:26:57,921 --> 00:26:59,721
an amazing lack
424
00:26:59,788 --> 00:27:02,655
of evidence of anyone
425
00:27:02,721 --> 00:27:04,621
having come into that place.
426
00:27:04,688 --> 00:27:07,288
When you glancedinto the living room,
427
00:27:07,355 --> 00:27:10,321
dining room, kitchen area,did you notice any
428
00:27:10,388 --> 00:27:12,888
particular disarrayin the dining room area?
429
00:27:12,955 --> 00:27:15,588
MICA:Not in the dining room.
430
00:27:15,655 --> 00:27:18,021
SOMERS:The dining roomcould not have been
431
00:27:18,088 --> 00:27:21,121
more than six feet at most
away from where all
432
00:27:21,188 --> 00:27:24,221
this fighting was taking place.
433
00:27:27,121 --> 00:27:29,588
Yet cards, which werestanding up on the table,
434
00:27:29,655 --> 00:27:31,321
are still standing.
435
00:27:31,388 --> 00:27:34,021
Which I find almost impossible
436
00:27:34,088 --> 00:27:37,521
if there had been a fight there.
437
00:27:37,588 --> 00:27:39,155
MICA:In the living room, there was
438
00:27:39,221 --> 00:27:41,355
a coffee table overturned.
439
00:27:41,421 --> 00:27:43,355
SOMERS:How was it lying,on its top or‐‐?
440
00:27:43,421 --> 00:27:45,388
MICA:On its edge.
441
00:27:45,455 --> 00:27:48,721
SOMERS:The CID investigatorsknocked that coffee table
442
00:27:48,788 --> 00:27:50,621
over again and again
443
00:27:50,688 --> 00:27:53,755
and again.
444
00:27:53,821 --> 00:27:55,321
It always fell on its top.
445
00:27:55,388 --> 00:27:59,055
How this table could have beensitting on its side
446
00:27:59,121 --> 00:28:01,555
on top of this stackof magazines
447
00:28:01,621 --> 00:28:03,621
as a result of being
448
00:28:03,688 --> 00:28:05,621
knocked over in a fight
449
00:28:05,688 --> 00:28:07,188
is inconceivable.
450
00:28:07,255 --> 00:28:09,955
I have no further questions.
451
00:28:11,821 --> 00:28:14,455
MALLEY:The prosecution said,"Everybody knows
452
00:28:14,521 --> 00:28:16,955
that the guy who is accuseddid it anyway,"
453
00:28:17,021 --> 00:28:22,588
and so, they felt they have anauthority that nobody else has.
454
00:28:22,655 --> 00:28:26,055
They had no idea, no idea,
455
00:28:26,121 --> 00:28:28,988
what real defense counsel
could do.
456
00:28:29,855 --> 00:28:31,288
SEGAL:
At this time,
457
00:28:31,355 --> 00:28:32,955
I want to show yousome photographs
458
00:28:33,021 --> 00:28:35,455
that have been supplied tothe defense by the government.
459
00:28:36,221 --> 00:28:37,421
DOUTHAT:We got
460
00:28:37,488 --> 00:28:40,321
the witness statements
and whatnot from the various MPs
461
00:28:40,388 --> 00:28:42,055
and the crime scenephotographs,
462
00:28:42,121 --> 00:28:45,388
and they didn't
necessarily jive.
463
00:28:45,455 --> 00:28:48,521
SEGAL:
Specialist Mica,
do you ever recall
464
00:28:48,588 --> 00:28:52,188
seeing the telephonein that particular fashion?
465
00:28:52,255 --> 00:28:54,121
MICA:Yes, sir.
466
00:28:54,188 --> 00:28:58,121
SEGAL:Do you ever recall the handsetbeing where it appears to be
467
00:28:58,188 --> 00:28:59,555
in this photograph?
468
00:28:59,621 --> 00:29:02,788
MICA:No, sir, not that I remember.
469
00:29:02,855 --> 00:29:04,488
What happened was,
470
00:29:04,555 --> 00:29:08,621
photographer came in,
he started taking photos...
471
00:29:10,955 --> 00:29:14,221
...and he got so upset and sickthat he couldn't continue.
472
00:29:14,288 --> 00:29:17,288
So you had one set ofphotographs i‐in the beginning,
473
00:29:17,355 --> 00:29:19,621
then you had a time lapse
474
00:29:19,688 --> 00:29:22,555
by the time they broughta second photographer in.
475
00:29:22,621 --> 00:29:27,055
And they had two different setsof photos they were using.
476
00:29:29,388 --> 00:29:31,288
DOUTHAT:To me, the first thing you dois secure
477
00:29:31,355 --> 00:29:33,788
the crime scene,
and that was not done.
478
00:29:33,855 --> 00:29:36,988
SEGAL:What is differentin this photograph
479
00:29:37,055 --> 00:29:39,255
than as what you recall seeing?
480
00:29:39,321 --> 00:29:42,388
MICA:Well, it showsthis red thing here.
481
00:29:42,455 --> 00:29:44,221
I thought it wasmore or less down the steps
482
00:29:44,288 --> 00:29:45,888
in front of the stairs.
483
00:29:45,955 --> 00:29:47,421
MALLEY:Bernie's view was, "You know,
484
00:29:47,488 --> 00:29:51,188
"once you start pulling
those little threads out,
485
00:29:51,255 --> 00:29:55,188
the garment might fall apart,"
and it turned out, it did.
486
00:29:55,255 --> 00:29:58,721
SEGAL:
What is different
about that white flower pot
487
00:29:58,788 --> 00:30:01,255
in the photograph
than as what you recall seeing?
488
00:30:01,321 --> 00:30:02,988
In this photograph,
it is standing
489
00:30:03,055 --> 00:30:05,888
on what appears to be its base.
490
00:30:05,955 --> 00:30:08,155
I remember it as beingon its side.
491
00:30:08,221 --> 00:30:10,555
BEALE:There was a flower pot
492
00:30:10,621 --> 00:30:12,055
that got stood up.
493
00:30:12,121 --> 00:30:13,521
They had moved the clothing.
494
00:30:13,588 --> 00:30:15,188
Somebody put the phone
495
00:30:15,255 --> 00:30:17,121
back on the hook.
496
00:30:17,188 --> 00:30:18,621
It really startedto raise questions
497
00:30:18,688 --> 00:30:22,121
in your mind of, "Gee whiz,
what were they doing?
498
00:30:22,188 --> 00:30:24,055
Who was moving all this stuff?"
499
00:30:24,121 --> 00:30:27,821
SEGAL:I would like, if you couldassist us, Specialist Mica,
500
00:30:27,888 --> 00:30:30,221
to help us determine
501
00:30:30,288 --> 00:30:32,688
how many people werein the MacDonald house
502
00:30:32,755 --> 00:30:35,788
at the time the medics cameand removed Captain MacDonald.
503
00:30:35,855 --> 00:30:39,055
MICA:There were justtoo many people in there.
504
00:30:39,121 --> 00:30:40,955
At one point, somebody said,
505
00:30:41,021 --> 00:30:42,521
"How long is it gonna be
before they, you know,
506
00:30:42,588 --> 00:30:44,788
remove the bodies," they said,
"Oh, it's gonna be hours,"
507
00:30:44,855 --> 00:30:46,321
and this guy's like, "Ugh."
508
00:30:46,388 --> 00:30:50,321
He walked across,sat on the couch.
509
00:30:50,388 --> 00:30:52,855
I said, "Get off the couch."
510
00:30:52,921 --> 00:30:54,388
SEGAL:That white flower pot,
511
00:30:54,455 --> 00:30:57,321
how had it gotten
from its position
512
00:30:57,388 --> 00:31:00,721
lying on its side
to standing on its base?
513
00:31:00,788 --> 00:31:04,921
MICA:I believe it was that manwho sat on the couch
514
00:31:04,988 --> 00:31:07,355
I believe he sat it upright.
515
00:31:09,021 --> 00:31:13,455
SEGAL:
I have nothing further of this
witness, sir, at this time.
516
00:31:15,955 --> 00:31:17,555
DOUTHAT:Once we started to cut
517
00:31:17,621 --> 00:31:21,088
the feet out from under them,
we began to feel pretty good.
518
00:31:21,155 --> 00:31:22,488
Bernie decided,
519
00:31:22,555 --> 00:31:24,155
"Let's go backto the table going over.
520
00:31:24,221 --> 00:31:26,588
That was a big deal for them."
521
00:31:26,655 --> 00:31:28,555
And if you lookat the photographs,
522
00:31:28,621 --> 00:31:33,421
there was a rocking chairin front of the table.
523
00:31:33,488 --> 00:31:36,421
And we figured, "Wait a minute,
what happened was,
524
00:31:36,488 --> 00:31:40,155
"is the‐the coffee table hit the
chair, spun the chair around,
525
00:31:40,221 --> 00:31:42,555
"it stopped the momentum,
the magazines fell
526
00:31:42,621 --> 00:31:44,721
and the coffee table
landed on top of 'em."
527
00:31:44,788 --> 00:31:48,555
We asked Colonel Rockto try and settle it.
528
00:31:48,621 --> 00:31:51,988
BEALE:Colonel Rock and I went over
529
00:31:52,055 --> 00:31:54,755
to the quarters where
the murders took place.
530
00:31:54,821 --> 00:31:58,488
He wanted to try this littleexperiment with this table.
531
00:32:05,321 --> 00:32:07,488
How'd it land‐land on its side?
532
00:32:07,555 --> 00:32:11,455
He kind of laughed and said,
"So much for that theory."
533
00:32:11,521 --> 00:32:13,755
(indistinct chatter)
534
00:32:13,821 --> 00:32:17,621
SEGAL:The crime scene handlingby the, uh, Army CID
535
00:32:17,688 --> 00:32:21,421
is a primary example of a crimescene investigation gone mad.
536
00:32:21,488 --> 00:32:25,821
27 different people marchedthrough the crime scene,
537
00:32:25,888 --> 00:32:30,455
destroying a great deal of whatwas potential evidence there,
538
00:32:30,521 --> 00:32:31,955
without a doubt.
539
00:32:47,188 --> 00:32:50,421
MORRIS:The deaths were horrible.
540
00:32:50,488 --> 00:32:56,155
And we're talking
about his wife, his children.
541
00:32:56,221 --> 00:33:00,055
We're talking abouttwo little girls.
542
00:33:00,121 --> 00:33:03,455
Kimberley and Kristen,five and two.
543
00:33:06,555 --> 00:33:08,688
If Jeffrey indeedwas responsible
544
00:33:08,755 --> 00:33:10,955
for these murders...
545
00:33:13,655 --> 00:33:17,688
...what was the motivation?
546
00:33:17,755 --> 00:33:20,255
Why did he do it?
547
00:33:23,121 --> 00:33:24,721
ROCK:Does counsel for the accused
548
00:33:24,788 --> 00:33:28,521
have any further witnessesat this time?
549
00:33:28,588 --> 00:33:32,455
SEGAL:Yes, sir. Mr. Kassab, please.
550
00:33:32,521 --> 00:33:35,821
Would you state what
relationship you are
551
00:33:35,888 --> 00:33:37,721
to Captain Jeffrey MacDonald?
552
00:33:37,788 --> 00:33:40,588
I am his father‐in‐law.
553
00:33:40,655 --> 00:33:42,321
DOUTHAT: Did you ever hearJeff MacDonald
554
00:33:42,388 --> 00:33:47,155
raise his voiceto your daughter in anger?
555
00:33:47,221 --> 00:33:49,288
FREDDY:No. Never at any time.
556
00:33:49,355 --> 00:33:54,255
They were the happiestI'd ever seen them.
557
00:33:54,321 --> 00:33:57,721
MALLEY: We interviewed a lotof his friends, his family,
558
00:33:57,788 --> 00:34:01,821
his‐his former patients, to show
what kind of a guy he was.
559
00:34:01,888 --> 00:34:05,521
Everybody liked Jeff,
560
00:34:05,588 --> 00:34:09,288
including Freddy Kassab.
561
00:34:09,355 --> 00:34:11,888
SEGAL:
Can you describe
his attitude and conduct
562
00:34:11,955 --> 00:34:13,355
towards his children?
563
00:34:13,421 --> 00:34:16,155
FREDDY:Every time you'd turn around,
564
00:34:16,221 --> 00:34:18,921
he had one of the girlsplaying with him.
565
00:34:20,788 --> 00:34:23,688
MAN:
Do you and Mildred miss Colette?
566
00:34:23,755 --> 00:34:25,455
Oh, God, yes.
567
00:34:26,488 --> 00:34:28,455
And the children.
568
00:34:33,321 --> 00:34:35,921
MAN:Life hasn't beenquite the same?
569
00:34:35,988 --> 00:34:39,988
FREDDY:It's never been the samesince that day.
570
00:35:00,688 --> 00:35:04,521
STEVENSON: I rememberstanding there, waiting,
571
00:35:04,588 --> 00:35:06,588
and then seeing...
572
00:35:07,755 --> 00:35:09,855
...beside my sister's coffin,
573
00:35:09,921 --> 00:35:13,721
two little coffins
about this big
574
00:35:13,788 --> 00:35:16,121
being put into the ground.
575
00:35:16,188 --> 00:35:21,388
It broke me. It broke me.
576
00:35:27,355 --> 00:35:29,455
‐MORRIS: When we spokethe first time...‐Yes.
577
00:35:29,521 --> 00:35:31,155
MORRIS:...you seemed at wit's end
578
00:35:31,221 --> 00:35:33,755
with this constant retellingof this story.
579
00:35:33,821 --> 00:35:39,588
Every year, somebody wants
to throw a rope around my legs
580
00:35:39,655 --> 00:35:42,588
and drag me through
the family pool of blood again,
581
00:35:42,655 --> 00:35:45,621
and I have to go through all of
it and learning too many things,
582
00:35:45,688 --> 00:35:49,288
uh‐‐ remembering things I don't
want to remember anymore,
583
00:35:49,355 --> 00:35:50,855
and I'm not gonna do it anymore.
584
00:35:50,921 --> 00:35:52,955
That was... that was it.
585
00:35:55,388 --> 00:36:01,055
But I've come to understandthat it's not going to go away.
586
00:36:01,121 --> 00:36:02,988
I'll tell my story.
587
00:36:03,821 --> 00:36:06,355
I'll tell what I can.
588
00:36:07,588 --> 00:36:10,521
♪♪ ♪♪
589
00:36:12,121 --> 00:36:15,255
My mother wanted a girldesperately.
590
00:36:16,588 --> 00:36:18,621
She had had stillborn children.
591
00:36:19,921 --> 00:36:22,488
Each one was named Colette.
592
00:36:22,555 --> 00:36:26,188
I remember one of my mother'sCatholic friends saying,
593
00:36:26,255 --> 00:36:28,888
"How will God ever know
which Colette is which?"
594
00:36:28,955 --> 00:36:30,788
Tried to deter her.
595
00:36:30,855 --> 00:36:32,455
"Don't do another Colette."
596
00:36:33,988 --> 00:36:37,355
But yet, my sister wasColette Three.
597
00:36:38,955 --> 00:36:42,488
My mother dressed herto a fault.
598
00:36:42,555 --> 00:36:45,288
She wasthe most picturesque thing
599
00:36:45,355 --> 00:36:47,588
you ever saw in your life.
600
00:36:50,988 --> 00:36:52,921
SMERLING:When did you meet Colette?
601
00:36:52,988 --> 00:36:55,155
Kindergarten.
602
00:36:55,221 --> 00:36:57,321
You know, you walk in
the first day,
603
00:36:57,388 --> 00:37:00,321
and, you know,
you look to find somebody.
604
00:37:02,655 --> 00:37:07,121
Right from the beginning,we were kind of buddies.
605
00:37:07,188 --> 00:37:10,121
She was funny,she was lighthearted.
606
00:37:10,188 --> 00:37:12,321
She was my best friend.
607
00:37:12,388 --> 00:37:17,188
But as close as I was to her...
608
00:37:18,355 --> 00:37:21,588
...she camouflageda lot of things.
609
00:37:24,755 --> 00:37:27,855
The only thing she shared iswhen her father died,
610
00:37:27,921 --> 00:37:31,088
how sad, how devastated she was.
611
00:37:36,855 --> 00:37:38,855
We were really much closer
612
00:37:38,921 --> 00:37:41,188
than most mothers and daughters,
613
00:37:41,255 --> 00:37:44,621
because as a little child,
she lost her father,
614
00:37:44,688 --> 00:37:46,921
and I meant...
615
00:37:46,988 --> 00:37:49,521
more to her because of that.
616
00:37:49,588 --> 00:37:51,721
And then, when I married Freddy,
617
00:37:51,788 --> 00:37:55,255
she just loved him as a father.
618
00:37:55,321 --> 00:37:58,421
MAN:How old was Colettewhen you first met her?
619
00:37:58,488 --> 00:38:00,155
FREDDY:When I first met Colette,
620
00:38:00,221 --> 00:38:02,888
she was approximately13 years of age.
621
00:38:02,955 --> 00:38:04,755
I was courting her mother.
622
00:38:04,821 --> 00:38:08,055
Um, it was
quite a while back now.
623
00:38:08,121 --> 00:38:10,621
STEVENSON:Colette loved Freddy.
624
00:38:10,688 --> 00:38:13,955
She loved him very, very much.
625
00:38:15,288 --> 00:38:17,355
MAN:You have also
626
00:38:17,421 --> 00:38:20,021
known Jeff MacDonald
for a long, long time.
627
00:38:20,088 --> 00:38:22,788
When did you first meet
MacDonald?
628
00:38:22,855 --> 00:38:24,755
I first met MacDonald
629
00:38:24,821 --> 00:38:29,421
probably within a month or two
after I met Colette.
630
00:38:29,488 --> 00:38:32,521
They were in junior high school
together,
631
00:38:32,588 --> 00:38:34,988
and he would come over
to the house.
632
00:38:36,988 --> 00:38:40,988
MILDRED:He and Colette datedthrough high school.
633
00:38:41,055 --> 00:38:44,421
We thought he was a...
an especially nice boy.
634
00:38:44,488 --> 00:38:46,188
Very nice.
635
00:38:47,455 --> 00:38:49,855
REICH:Jeff was a football star.
636
00:38:49,921 --> 00:38:52,455
He had charisma.
637
00:38:52,521 --> 00:38:54,655
Everybody liked him.
638
00:38:54,721 --> 00:38:56,588
He was outgoing.
639
00:38:56,655 --> 00:38:58,455
Uh, he was friendly.
640
00:38:58,521 --> 00:39:01,321
He was just everything.
641
00:39:03,055 --> 00:39:06,688
SMERLING:How quickly did Jeffreyand Colette get married?
642
00:39:06,755 --> 00:39:08,855
REICH:She was 20.
643
00:39:08,921 --> 00:39:11,055
I came back from school, and
644
00:39:11,121 --> 00:39:13,321
she called to say
she was getting married.
645
00:39:13,388 --> 00:39:16,255
And, you know,
I was a little surprised,
646
00:39:16,321 --> 00:39:18,321
but then I realized she told me
647
00:39:18,388 --> 00:39:20,388
why they were getting married,
so...
648
00:39:20,455 --> 00:39:21,855
SMERLING:
And why was that?
649
00:39:21,921 --> 00:39:23,855
She was pregnant.
650
00:39:28,321 --> 00:39:30,221
MAN:I take it youand Mildred were pleased
651
00:39:30,288 --> 00:39:31,721
when they decidedto get married?
652
00:39:31,788 --> 00:39:34,855
FREDDY:Oh, yes.
653
00:39:34,921 --> 00:39:37,021
He was a nice,presentable young man,
654
00:39:37,088 --> 00:39:39,388
good potential for the future,
655
00:39:39,455 --> 00:39:40,921
so thereforewe saw nothing wrong
656
00:39:40,988 --> 00:39:42,588
with them getting married.
657
00:39:54,955 --> 00:39:56,721
FREDDY:
May I add one thing?
658
00:39:56,788 --> 00:39:58,288
SEGAL:
Yes, you may.
659
00:39:58,355 --> 00:40:00,421
FREDDY:
If I had another daughter,
660
00:40:00,488 --> 00:40:03,921
I'd still want
the same son‐in‐law.
661
00:40:11,888 --> 00:40:15,188
(crowd chatter)
662
00:40:16,921 --> 00:40:19,155
My daughter
and two grandchildren...
663
00:40:19,221 --> 00:40:21,455
(clears throat)
Excuse me.
664
00:40:21,521 --> 00:40:25,855
...suffered in excess
of 80 stab wounds.
665
00:40:25,921 --> 00:40:29,421
What they want the public
to believe is
666
00:40:29,488 --> 00:40:31,321
that a sane man‐‐
667
00:40:31,388 --> 00:40:33,855
and they charged premeditation,
mind you‐‐
668
00:40:33,921 --> 00:40:36,655
sat down and planned
669
00:40:36,721 --> 00:40:38,755
to perform such an act.
670
00:40:38,821 --> 00:40:41,321
I don't believe anybody in
this country would believe that.
671
00:40:41,388 --> 00:40:43,921
That a sane man would do this.
672
00:40:54,155 --> 00:40:56,655
SOMERS:You can't explain this
673
00:40:56,721 --> 00:41:00,455
horrendous event logically,
674
00:41:00,521 --> 00:41:05,088
because if indeed
MacDonald did it,
675
00:41:05,155 --> 00:41:08,755
he was in no frame of mind
to be logical.
676
00:41:08,821 --> 00:41:10,955
I believe
677
00:41:11,021 --> 00:41:14,321
if the story fitsthe physical evidence,
678
00:41:14,388 --> 00:41:16,521
then you probably
have a good story.
679
00:41:16,588 --> 00:41:18,888
If it doesn't fit
the physical evidence,
680
00:41:18,955 --> 00:41:20,721
then it's a loser.
681
00:41:20,788 --> 00:41:23,388
Jeff's never fit that evidence.
682
00:41:23,455 --> 00:41:25,421
(doors open)
683
00:41:25,488 --> 00:41:27,421
ATTORNEY:
The government calls
684
00:41:27,488 --> 00:41:29,755
Specialist Fourth Class
Craig Chamberlain.
685
00:41:29,821 --> 00:41:31,621
SOMERS:There is only one story
686
00:41:31,688 --> 00:41:33,455
that fit that evidence.
687
00:41:34,755 --> 00:41:36,255
CHAMBERLAIN:I was called in
688
00:41:36,321 --> 00:41:38,088
to the head of the lab and said,
689
00:41:38,155 --> 00:41:39,555
"There's a murder case
at Fort Bragg.
690
00:41:39,621 --> 00:41:42,855
We need you to go there
as a member of a team."
691
00:41:46,488 --> 00:41:49,921
Probably the most importantevidence was that
692
00:41:49,988 --> 00:41:51,955
each member
of the group of four
693
00:41:52,021 --> 00:41:54,321
in that family had
a different blood type.
694
00:41:55,821 --> 00:41:59,921
SOMERS:Jeff had B blood,
695
00:41:59,988 --> 00:42:02,788
Colette had A blood,
696
00:42:02,855 --> 00:42:05,988
Kimberley had AB blood,
697
00:42:06,055 --> 00:42:08,888
and Kristen had O blood.
698
00:42:08,955 --> 00:42:11,455
So you could trace
699
00:42:11,521 --> 00:42:15,021
where everybody's blood wasin that unit.
700
00:42:16,888 --> 00:42:18,255
CHAMBERLAIN:MacDonald had said
701
00:42:18,321 --> 00:42:21,188
he was assaultedin the living room.
702
00:42:23,055 --> 00:42:25,488
SMERLING:Do you remember where bloodwas found in the living room?
703
00:42:25,555 --> 00:42:27,088
It just wasn't there.
704
00:42:27,155 --> 00:42:29,888
But there was a massive amountof blood
705
00:42:29,955 --> 00:42:34,155
in the master bedroomwhere Colette's body was found.
706
00:42:35,688 --> 00:42:39,055
SOMERS:Our theory wasthat an argument ensued
707
00:42:39,121 --> 00:42:41,821
in the master bedroomwith Colette.
708
00:42:41,888 --> 00:42:45,655
That argument
709
00:42:45,721 --> 00:42:47,155
begins to escalate.
710
00:42:49,255 --> 00:42:52,621
At some point,MacDonald picks up this stick,
711
00:42:52,688 --> 00:42:54,588
and he starts beating her.
712
00:43:00,955 --> 00:43:02,255
KIMBERLY (echoing):Daddy! Daddy!
713
00:43:02,321 --> 00:43:04,588
We believe,while this is going on,
714
00:43:04,655 --> 00:43:08,921
Kimberley, his older daughter,gets out of bed.
715
00:43:08,988 --> 00:43:11,988
He has the stick in his hand.
716
00:43:12,055 --> 00:43:13,821
He swings it around,
717
00:43:13,888 --> 00:43:16,955
and it hits her...
718
00:43:17,021 --> 00:43:19,855
right across the side
of the head,
719
00:43:19,921 --> 00:43:22,421
crushes her skull.
720
00:43:22,488 --> 00:43:25,421
I mean, knocked it ina couple of inches.
721
00:43:28,521 --> 00:43:32,455
At this point,he is a physician.
722
00:43:32,521 --> 00:43:36,321
He knows
she is either going to die,
723
00:43:36,388 --> 00:43:39,421
or she is going to have serious,
serious consequences
724
00:43:39,488 --> 00:43:41,055
of that wound.
725
00:43:46,755 --> 00:43:49,188
I believe he takes Kimberley
726
00:43:49,255 --> 00:43:51,455
back to her bedroom.
727
00:43:53,755 --> 00:43:55,288
ATTORNEY:
Specialist Chamberlain,
728
00:43:55,355 --> 00:43:58,221
I see that you have drawn
two oblongs on this picture,
729
00:43:58,288 --> 00:44:00,221
and they seem
to be labeled "AB."
730
00:44:00,288 --> 00:44:03,188
Would you tell uswhat that means?
731
00:44:03,255 --> 00:44:05,021
CHAMBERLAIN:That means I determined
732
00:44:05,088 --> 00:44:07,988
there was AB bloodwithin these areas.
733
00:44:08,055 --> 00:44:10,121
SOMERS:That's Kimberley's blood
734
00:44:10,188 --> 00:44:13,055
in the entranceto the master bedroom.
735
00:44:19,355 --> 00:44:21,021
SMERLING:Kristy's bed‐‐
736
00:44:21,088 --> 00:44:22,888
do you rememberhow much blood was there?
737
00:44:22,955 --> 00:44:25,488
CHAMBERLAIN:There was a lot of bloodon the bed clothing.
738
00:44:25,555 --> 00:44:29,655
The sheets that had Colette'stype A blood indicated on it.
739
00:44:29,721 --> 00:44:35,188
It was like, "Why is Colette'sblood in the kids' room?"
740
00:44:38,088 --> 00:44:40,021
SOMERS:At some point,
741
00:44:40,088 --> 00:44:42,888
Colette goesinto Kristen's room
742
00:44:42,955 --> 00:44:45,221
as though she were attempting
743
00:44:45,288 --> 00:44:49,021
to protect her youngest child,
744
00:44:49,088 --> 00:44:53,555
and Jeff hits her in the head.
745
00:44:53,621 --> 00:44:56,355
She falls, and she bleeds
746
00:44:56,421 --> 00:44:59,921
all over the top partof the bed.
747
00:45:13,821 --> 00:45:18,021
Jeff's got to figure out,what does he do now?
748
00:45:22,721 --> 00:45:24,055
(camera shutter clicks)
749
00:45:24,121 --> 00:45:26,721
Under the tablein the living room,
750
00:45:26,788 --> 00:45:29,421
an Esquire magazine was found.
751
00:45:32,121 --> 00:45:34,321
CHAMBERLAIN:There was type AB
752
00:45:34,388 --> 00:45:37,355
blood on the edge
of the, uh, magazine.
753
00:45:37,421 --> 00:45:43,188
SOMERS:How did AB blood getinto the magazine?
754
00:45:43,255 --> 00:45:46,455
It's Kimberley's blood.
She sure didn't put it there.
755
00:45:48,388 --> 00:45:52,421
In that magazine was an articleabout the Manson killings,
756
00:45:52,488 --> 00:45:56,988
including the word "pig"written in blood.
757
00:45:57,055 --> 00:45:59,321
The theory was that
758
00:45:59,388 --> 00:46:03,588
Jeff consultedthe Esquire magazine,
759
00:46:03,655 --> 00:46:06,721
and he says, "I got it.
760
00:46:06,788 --> 00:46:08,721
"A bunch of hippies came in.
761
00:46:08,788 --> 00:46:11,555
But wait a minute."
762
00:46:11,621 --> 00:46:13,321
He can't tell them
763
00:46:13,388 --> 00:46:16,455
that some hippies came inand just beat up two of them.
764
00:46:18,288 --> 00:46:21,155
He goes backinto Kristen's room,
765
00:46:21,221 --> 00:46:24,055
and using a knife,
766
00:46:24,121 --> 00:46:26,888
he stabs her.
767
00:46:31,588 --> 00:46:32,555
(blood dripping)
768
00:46:32,621 --> 00:46:37,088
We know she was awake,because Kristen
769
00:46:37,155 --> 00:46:39,921
had wounds to her hands.
770
00:46:45,421 --> 00:46:49,455
Then he stabs his wiferepeatedly with
771
00:46:49,521 --> 00:46:50,921
the ice pick.
772
00:46:53,221 --> 00:46:57,621
And then he staged "pig"on the headboard.
773
00:46:57,688 --> 00:47:00,655
CHAMBERLAIN:Written on, uh, the headboard
774
00:47:00,721 --> 00:47:03,288
was "P‐I‐G."
775
00:47:03,355 --> 00:47:05,155
No fingerprints involved
in that.
776
00:47:05,221 --> 00:47:07,821
SOMERS:We found fragments
777
00:47:07,888 --> 00:47:10,421
of surgical glovesin the bedroom.
778
00:47:14,388 --> 00:47:16,255
No.
779
00:47:17,321 --> 00:47:19,421
We found B blood in the kitchen
780
00:47:19,488 --> 00:47:21,555
on the floor.
781
00:47:21,621 --> 00:47:24,588
We look in the cabinetunder the kitchen sink.
782
00:47:26,488 --> 00:47:29,021
There was a whole package
of surgical gloves.
783
00:47:31,288 --> 00:47:35,821
That has to be MacDonald.
784
00:47:35,888 --> 00:47:37,888
Unless there's somebody elsein there bleeding,
785
00:47:37,955 --> 00:47:39,555
and his story doesn't have
786
00:47:39,621 --> 00:47:41,455
any of them bleeding.
787
00:47:42,555 --> 00:47:45,221
Captain MacDonaldhad a laceration
788
00:47:45,288 --> 00:47:48,721
between his ribsthat resulted
789
00:47:48,788 --> 00:47:49,988
in a collapsed lung.
790
00:47:50,055 --> 00:47:52,021
CHAMBERLAIN:In the bathroom,
791
00:47:52,088 --> 00:47:55,021
there was blood drippingsaround the sink.
792
00:47:55,088 --> 00:47:57,255
It was type B blood,
793
00:47:57,321 --> 00:48:01,021
which wasJeffrey MacDonald's blood type.
794
00:48:01,088 --> 00:48:03,755
SOMERS:I think he inflicted that wound
795
00:48:03,821 --> 00:48:07,188
on himself very carefully.
796
00:48:09,321 --> 00:48:11,788
And that is essentially the way
797
00:48:11,855 --> 00:48:15,588
in which Jeffrey MacDonaldbecame a murderer.
798
00:48:38,988 --> 00:48:41,188
‐(siren wailing)
‐(indistinct radio chatter)
799
00:49:53,655 --> 00:49:55,355
When we first started
getting interviewed
800
00:49:55,421 --> 00:49:58,688
before the Article 32,
I bring the girl up,
801
00:49:58,755 --> 00:50:02,588
and they're like, "What girl?"
I said, "The girl I saw."
802
00:50:10,621 --> 00:50:12,055
(laughs softly)
803
00:50:12,121 --> 00:50:16,188
I got to say, I thought...
804
00:50:19,088 --> 00:50:22,388
...excuse my language‐‐
bullshit.
805
00:50:22,455 --> 00:50:24,388
Bullshit.
806
00:50:24,455 --> 00:50:27,055
Mica, at that point,
807
00:50:27,121 --> 00:50:30,855
sounded like he wanted to be
an investigative hero.
808
00:50:34,988 --> 00:50:37,288
MICA:I knew what I saw.
809
00:50:37,355 --> 00:50:38,255
I figured,
810
00:50:38,321 --> 00:50:40,155
it's gonna come up
sooner or later.
811
00:50:43,055 --> 00:50:46,488
So I went to the defenseand I told 'em.
812
00:50:46,555 --> 00:50:51,521
Bernie Segal says, "I'm gonnaput you back on the stand."
813
00:50:51,588 --> 00:50:53,321
SEGAL:
Specialist Mica,
814
00:50:53,388 --> 00:50:56,055
you're the same witnesswho was previously called
815
00:50:56,121 --> 00:50:58,755
and testifiedin these proceedings?
816
00:50:58,821 --> 00:51:01,188
Yes, sir.
817
00:51:01,255 --> 00:51:04,455
SEGAL:Does that drawing resemble
818
00:51:04,521 --> 00:51:07,655
any person that you believeto have seen?
819
00:51:07,721 --> 00:51:10,088
MICA:It could, sir.
820
00:51:10,155 --> 00:51:12,955
SEGAL:
Who do you believe
it could represent?
821
00:51:14,988 --> 00:51:19,255
MICA:Possibly the girl I sawon the corner that night.
822
00:51:20,455 --> 00:51:22,155
(reporters clamoring)
823
00:51:22,221 --> 00:51:26,555
SEGAL:
A woman who had been uncovered
by myself was in fact a person
824
00:51:26,621 --> 00:51:28,521
whom the civilian authorities
should investigate
825
00:51:28,588 --> 00:51:31,088
for complicity in the murders
of Dr. MacDonald's family
826
00:51:31,155 --> 00:51:32,521
and assaulting him.
827
00:51:36,555 --> 00:51:38,488
DOUTHAT:It was on the headlinesthat day.
828
00:51:38,555 --> 00:51:41,221
And people weresending us letters
829
00:51:41,288 --> 00:51:42,888
and‐and calling us on the phone.
830
00:51:42,955 --> 00:51:45,521
And some of them were crazy
and some of them were right
831
00:51:45,588 --> 00:51:48,155
on the money and‐and were trying
to be as helpful as they could.
832
00:51:50,888 --> 00:51:54,488
And we came upona guy named Posey.
833
00:51:54,555 --> 00:52:00,388
SEGAL:The defense callsWilliam Edward Posey.
834
00:52:00,455 --> 00:52:02,655
DOUTHAT:He said that he hadthis neighbor
835
00:52:02,721 --> 00:52:05,188
that was strange,to say the least.
836
00:52:07,455 --> 00:52:10,655
And then, on the nightthat the murders took place,
837
00:52:10,721 --> 00:52:12,555
he saw her come inin the middle of the night
838
00:52:12,621 --> 00:52:14,621
in a Mustang car.
839
00:52:17,321 --> 00:52:19,755
He was getting out of the car
and going to the house.
840
00:52:19,821 --> 00:52:21,988
SEGAL:Would you describe
841
00:52:22,055 --> 00:52:24,655
what her normalwearing apparel was?
842
00:52:24,721 --> 00:52:27,288
POSEY:Well, she hada big old white floppy hat
843
00:52:27,355 --> 00:52:28,755
that she wore.
844
00:52:28,821 --> 00:52:32,488
And she had a pair of whiteboots that she wore a lot.
845
00:52:34,688 --> 00:52:36,521
DOUTHAT:She fit the descriptionof the person
846
00:52:36,588 --> 00:52:40,055
that Jeffrey MacDonald
described and Mica described.
847
00:52:40,121 --> 00:52:42,855
Her name was Helena Stoeckley.
848
00:52:46,055 --> 00:52:49,188
All the stuff hanging out there
about Stoeckley...
849
00:52:50,188 --> 00:52:53,121
...everything pointed to her.
850
00:52:53,188 --> 00:52:56,455
What in the worldwould somebody be out there
851
00:52:56,521 --> 00:52:59,755
dressed just like the hippiethat MacDonald described,
852
00:52:59,821 --> 00:53:01,321
that had just attacked him?
853
00:53:01,388 --> 00:53:06,288
That‐that really did raise
some interesting questions.
854
00:54:09,288 --> 00:54:11,321
♪♪ ♪♪
855
00:54:23,755 --> 00:54:25,521
SMERLING:Now you're waitingfor Colonel Rock
856
00:54:25,588 --> 00:54:27,021
‐to make his decision.‐DOUTHAT: Mm‐hmm.
857
00:54:27,088 --> 00:54:28,355
SMERLING:How long did that take?
858
00:54:28,421 --> 00:54:30,055
(exhales)
859
00:54:30,121 --> 00:54:34,021
A month, six weeks?
Uh, it took a while.
860
00:54:34,088 --> 00:54:37,121
We kind of heard it was comingdown, and every now and then,
861
00:54:37,188 --> 00:54:39,521
we'd get a whiffof what was gonna happen,
862
00:54:39,588 --> 00:54:41,255
but we didn't know.
863
00:54:44,255 --> 00:54:46,288
Colonel Rockhad been given a job
864
00:54:46,355 --> 00:54:49,155
that was the headlinesof every paper,
865
00:54:49,221 --> 00:54:51,088
and he was gonna get it right.
866
00:54:52,421 --> 00:54:54,355
SMERLING:
Can you read it for me?
867
00:54:54,421 --> 00:54:56,921
Yeah. Yeah, well, sure,
I can read it.
868
00:54:56,988 --> 00:54:59,021
Um...
869
00:54:59,088 --> 00:55:01,221
"High security report
870
00:55:01,288 --> 00:55:03,121
"on the meeting
between Colonel Rock
871
00:55:03,188 --> 00:55:06,055
General Flanagan
and Captain Beale."
872
00:55:16,921 --> 00:55:19,121
I remember Flanagan was
873
00:55:19,188 --> 00:55:21,988
the commanding general
of Special Forces,
874
00:55:22,055 --> 00:55:25,488
and Colonel Rock, his jobwas to make a recommendation
875
00:55:25,555 --> 00:55:27,721
as to whether this caseought to go forward
876
00:55:27,788 --> 00:55:30,221
with an actual trial.
877
00:55:30,288 --> 00:55:32,888
Must have been
an exchange between them.
878
00:55:32,955 --> 00:55:37,355
"Rock offered the statement
that 'I searched high and low
879
00:55:37,421 --> 00:55:39,755
"'for points that show
Jeff did it,
880
00:55:39,821 --> 00:55:43,955
but they ain't there.'"
881
00:55:44,921 --> 00:55:46,188
"Flanagan said,
882
00:55:46,255 --> 00:55:52,055
"'But what about
the grass and mud?'
883
00:55:52,121 --> 00:55:58,121
Rock said, '14 MPs hadn't
carried any in, either.'"
884
00:56:00,588 --> 00:56:05,555
"Flanagan said, 'But what aboutthe coffee table?'
885
00:56:05,621 --> 00:56:09,188
Rock recounted the entiresequence of events."
886
00:56:12,355 --> 00:56:15,155
"Flanagan asked if there was
any evidence for anyone else
887
00:56:15,221 --> 00:56:18,921
being in the house."
888
00:56:20,221 --> 00:56:24,921
"Rock covered all the points,and also Posey."
889
00:56:26,421 --> 00:56:29,755
"'Is there anything else
the government can do now
890
00:56:29,821 --> 00:56:33,255
"to solidify the case?'
891
00:56:33,321 --> 00:56:35,755
Rock said,
'No, you shot your wad.'"
892
00:56:35,821 --> 00:56:37,021
(laughs softly)
893
00:56:37,088 --> 00:56:39,088
"Rock then said,
894
00:56:39,155 --> 00:56:43,188
"'The Army had already spent
large sums,
895
00:56:43,255 --> 00:56:44,555
"'and to spend any more money
896
00:56:44,621 --> 00:56:48,621
would make the Army
look like fools.'"
897
00:56:53,555 --> 00:56:54,921
Yeah.
898
00:56:55,755 --> 00:56:57,321
Yeah.
899
00:56:57,388 --> 00:57:01,455
No, I don't. But that doesn't
mean it didn't happen.
900
00:57:06,321 --> 00:57:09,821
MALLEY:This case was a big deal.
901
00:57:09,888 --> 00:57:11,855
And I think the Army thought,
902
00:57:11,921 --> 00:57:13,855
"We got to wrap this up quickly.
903
00:57:13,921 --> 00:57:15,188
"Um, it's‐‐ it‐‐ You know,
904
00:57:15,255 --> 00:57:17,755
"CBS Evening News knows
about it,
905
00:57:17,821 --> 00:57:19,888
and that's not what we want."
906
00:57:19,955 --> 00:57:21,455
CRONKITE:The Army today
907
00:57:21,521 --> 00:57:23,321
cleared CaptainJeffrey MacDonald,
908
00:57:23,388 --> 00:57:25,788
a Green Beret physician,of charges that he murdered
909
00:57:25,855 --> 00:57:28,588
his wife and two young
daughters nine months ago
910
00:57:28,655 --> 00:57:30,888
in their Fort Bragg,North Carolina apartment.
911
00:57:30,955 --> 00:57:34,588
The Army said that five weeksof closed‐door hearings had not
912
00:57:34,655 --> 00:57:37,321
produced sufficient evidenceto support the charges.
913
00:57:37,388 --> 00:57:42,421
We have all of these myths
about our system.
914
00:57:42,488 --> 00:57:45,121
How it works,
915
00:57:45,188 --> 00:57:48,455
the importance
of a level playing field.
916
00:57:49,821 --> 00:57:54,188
Fairness, equalitybefore the law.
917
00:57:55,988 --> 00:57:57,421
Here you have a tangled mess
918
00:57:57,488 --> 00:58:02,655
of people all trying
to figure out
919
00:58:02,721 --> 00:58:05,121
what's real
920
00:58:05,188 --> 00:58:08,955
and what's make believe.
921
00:58:09,021 --> 00:58:15,088
What really happened versuswhat we think really happened.
922
00:58:18,488 --> 00:58:21,121
Why the fascinationwith criminal trials?
923
00:58:21,188 --> 00:58:24,555
Because it's an attempt
to grab ahold of the world,
924
00:58:24,621 --> 00:58:29,221
to figure out what's really
out there, to find truth,
925
00:58:29,288 --> 00:58:33,621
to find something that you can
grab ahold of and shake.
926
00:58:33,688 --> 00:58:35,688
After hearing the decision,Captain MacDonald said
927
00:58:35,755 --> 00:58:38,121
he wanted to get outof the Army, start a new life.
928
00:58:38,188 --> 00:58:41,221
MacDONALD (over TV):I have said, in the future,that more investigation
929
00:58:41,288 --> 00:58:43,688
will be doneinto certain suspects
930
00:58:43,755 --> 00:58:46,888
that were brought outby us in the hearing.
931
00:58:46,955 --> 00:58:49,521
REPORTER:Do you plan to doany investigating of your own?
932
00:58:49,588 --> 00:58:51,821
Uh, no comment.
933
00:58:51,888 --> 00:58:53,788
HELENA:Dear Kathy,
934
00:58:53,855 --> 00:58:57,021
today on the news, I heard thatthey had definitely dropped
935
00:58:57,088 --> 00:58:59,388
the charges against MacDonald.
936
00:58:59,455 --> 00:59:01,188
Remember how I didn'thave an alibi
937
00:59:01,255 --> 00:59:03,321
for the night of the murder?
938
00:59:04,955 --> 00:59:07,055
Believe me,
939
00:59:07,121 --> 00:59:10,455
I am in deep, deep trouble.
940
00:59:11,655 --> 00:59:15,355
Love and peace. Helena.
941
00:59:19,821 --> 00:59:24,121
Captioned by
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