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My name is Dan Leo,
and I'm a former Samoa Rugby player.
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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX
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I was dropped from our national team for
exposing corruption within our union.
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Our chairman, who is also the Prime Minister of our country,
along with our senior politicians,
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had mismanaged hundreds of thousands of pounds,
most of which had been raised through public donations.
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The evidence was ignored by the sport’s governing body,
World Rugby.
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Our national team then fell from 7th in
the world to 17th in just three years.
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In 2016, I set out to find the real stories
behind why Pacific rugby is struggling,
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and despite providing many of the
world’s top rugby players to an ever-profitable sport,
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the island nations of Samoa, Tonga and Fiji,
increasingly find themselves on the edge of bankruptcy.
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I couldn’t have known then that I would stumble
across one of the biggest scandals in sport,
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or what I'd learn about the men who
were supposed to be the guardians of the game.
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Chairman of the Fiji Rugby Union,
if he's convicted for manslaughter,
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I think there's something wrong with that.
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If it was a different Prime Minister,
and wasn't part of the military, fine.
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Frank can f**king make you disappear.
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The big nations are writing what needs
to be done and ignoring whatever you do.
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Rugby basically can hang its head in shame
because it is not fulfilling its own values.
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We are Pacific Islanders, and this is our story.
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It's a story about people,
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about greed,
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about power,
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about the endless pursuit for more,
and the precious things that are lost along the way.
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The Pacific Islands of Fiji, Tonga and Samoa
have a combined population of 1.5 million people.
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Known for their sandy beaches and friendly smiles,
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the Pacific way of life places community
and family above all else.
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Since the day it was first introduced, rugby has become the national
sport and is the heart and soul of community life.
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Nothing lifts these nations spirits, or brings people together,
quite like the game of Rugby.
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Known for bringing excitement,
aggression and exceptional skill,
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these three islands provide more than a quarter of the world’s
professional rugby players and some of the biggest names in the sport.
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Every year, Pacific expats send more than
£300 million pounds back to these islands,
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and rugby players alone contribute up to 20% of GDP.
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Here in Fiji where the minimum wage is 10 times
lower than their closest neighbours, Australia and New Zealand
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rugby has become more than just a game, it’s a lifeline.
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This was the case for Rupeni Caucaunibuca,
one of the greatest rugby players of all time,
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who went from one of the most remote
villages in the world to international greatness,
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So when I came to New Zealand,
it's funny.
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I can't even speak English, that's true.
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I only understand 'yes, no, come, go'.
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You know I left school early.
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We lived in a small house.
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I've got 4 sisters, me and my brother.
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We struggled every day,
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and I signed the contract, the first thing I did,
I built one house.
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When I finish the house and I go to see my Dad and I tell him
'hey, I built one new house for you'.
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When he looked at me he starts to cry.
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That's the reason I wanted to go
to start my rugby.
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With the difficulty of
adapting to life overseas,
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Rupeni would often disappear
from his club and return to his family in Fiji.
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It's not like you live in town.
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Like you pay your house or your rent,
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you know, living in the village,
with your friends and your relatives.
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Sometimes it made me, I didn't want to go back.
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First time too for me, I'd ever seen that kind of money.
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and from now, I've stopped international rugby,
I find it hard.
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but it's too late, I've already spent it all
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for nothing...
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Having grown up admiring Rupeni,
it was sad to see him now struggling,
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And with professional teams now queueing up
to sign Rupeni’s 11-year old son,
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I can’t help but wonder, perhaps even fear, what the future holds
for the next generation of Pacific Rugby stars.
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To try and understand why so many
players are leaving to play overseas,
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I want to find out what is going on
with the Pacific Rugby unions themselves
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and whether they are doing anything to protect these players.
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00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:23,160
Having coached Fiji to an
Olympic Gold medal in 2016,
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Ben Ryan has seen first-hand the
challenges faced by Pacific rugby.
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To see that Dubai tournament,
the first one after I left
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where one of the boys playing was
not only unemployed, he was homeless
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and he's playing international football for Fiji 7s team,
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the Olympic champions.
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3 months after winning an Olympic Games
and that’s how they got treated.
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It shows you how they feel about the players,
that there’s just a big long line of them.
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That if one of them doesn’t agree to not getting a contract,
doing stuff for nothing or not having any job security
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well, we’ll just get the next one, cause
they’re all there, they keep coming.
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The Chairman of the Fiji Rugby Union,
if he's convicted for manslaughter
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and he's then eligible still to be a Chairman
of one of our world unions,
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I think there's something
wrong with that.
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'The coup in 2000, and the subsequent
mutiny in the ranks of the Army,
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were so traumatic, they've left a
permanent scar on the national conciousness.'
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The leader of the last coup, Frank Bainimarama, is now Fiji's
Prime Minister, and is also the President of Fiji Rugby.
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His brother-in-law, Francis Kean, is Fiji Rugby’s Chairman,
who was convicted of manslaughter after he beat a man to death.
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Because he’d been found guilty of
manslaughter, it got down graded because
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all the witnesses didn’t show up of course they didn’t.
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he only did about a week because Frank, his
brother-in-law, got him out. However that was a sentence.
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The fact that he’s the President of the Rugby Union
means that there’s gonna be a political connection.
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Now that’s just wrong, we
should be splitting that up.
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When you were captain of Fiji, did you have
to have much contact with all those guys?
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I know Frank. You don't want to mess with him.
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I don't want to not be able to go back to Fiji,
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because he's just won the election,
I don't want to be saying anything bad.
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and that's the thing,
you don't want to mess with Frank.
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Frank can f**king make you disappear.
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They'll come into a gym and with two
Army players and say you gotta pick these next week,
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or knocks on doors for players in
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the middle of the night from government
employees asking them to do various things.
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Players that won't get selected if
perhaps their families support the opposition party.
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I think there needs to be some
stronger directive from World Rugby,
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but ultimately if you
allow it to happen because of the governance,
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then we're in trouble.
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Having both captained and managed Samoa,
Pat Lam is one of the top coaches in the world,
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so I want to get his thoughts on why
Samoan rugby is at its lowest point ever.
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Pat! How you going bud?
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Good to see you, long time.
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I always say leadership is always the answer it's
always the problem.
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If things are going really well in a rugby team
business, family, look at the leaders. If it's not, look at the leaders.
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If things are going really well in a rugby team
business, family, look at the leaders. If it's not, look at the leaders.
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The players are playing
some high level rugby,
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so there is the players to be
one of the top teams in the world.
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But to me, it comes back to complete
organisation
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I found in the islands sometimes
there's people in those jobs
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because it's their turn,
no it should be whoever's
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the best at the job get in and get the
job done.
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For me it's getting that whole
management team right and organised,
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so the players shouldn't
be worried about when they come in
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oh where's my pay?
Where's my flights?
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Who's doing this? Where's the gear? Why is this late?
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It can't be that way because
it creates the wrong mindset.
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'Tonga's rugby players are celebrating
a win of sorts with its rugby union paying overdue match fees.
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One News revealed on tuesday
that players had not been paid for recent tours and camps.'
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So we didn't get paid
for that whole tour and
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we just asked a lot of
questions and got the same answers I guess.
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What's a match fee for Tonga?
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£300, that's for 4 games, that's for the whole tour.
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So £80 per game?
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£80 per game.
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We had the same with Samoa.
We'd often play in sellout stadiums
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around Europe for next to nothing,
knowing that our opposition were getting
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paid at times tens of
thousands of pounds.
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We didn't know if it was the game that
was taking advantage of Samoa Rugby
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or if it was our own officials that were
taking advantage of us.
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With the Tongan structure,
there's only one guy on top
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and on top of him as the Prime Minister,
so it's kind of hard to
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to combat that sort of style because
politics can kind of take over anything.
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We do want to change, we don't want to be
the same old Tongan team year in year out.
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Pacific Islanders are 30 times more
likely to have a career in rugby than anyone else,
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and with hundreds of professional
players around the world
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many choose to
play for their adopted nations.
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You hear lots of stories of sort of
corruption and mismanagement
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do you think that's something that sort
of puts Pacific Islanders off coming and playing for the island teams?
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Yeah I think it does. Personally, I
think it does and I think
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it has an effect on the way that
guys look at the islands maybe.
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'Manu Tuilagi, always a key man.'
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My brothers playing for Samoa and
you know and hearing about
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all the problems that I don't have to go
through playing for England.
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Friends of mine have gone through it so
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I think it's something that needs to look
at and it needs to change.
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I feel sorry for the boys out there
because they're giving everything
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you know some of them, that's the
only way they can afford to support the family.
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It's just unfortunate for
the players who are involved,
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they make their efforts
to go back there and
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give their time and effort for the
country and they're not quite
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supported by the management squad.
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You know a person like yourself has
probably seen it first-hand and what it can do
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not only on the field but
off the field and how that affects your
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affects your team and the mentality
of your team and
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how that can bring your
team culture down,
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and not worry about rugby,
you're worried about other stuff.
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My international career with
Manu Samoa began in 2005.
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We didn't have the resources or
facilities that the big teams did
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but we made do with
what little we had.
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Whether it was busking outside a
restaurant in Scotland to pay for a meal
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or walking to a test match after the bus
broke down,
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it was those moments that
provided the best memories,
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and made our team feel like a family.
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But sadly, the good times were always overshadowed by
political interference and off-field controversy.
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Back in 2014, myself and the Samoan Rugby
team were about to strike our game against England at Twickenham.
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We didn't want to but
we felt like we had no choice.
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We'd been evidence
that potentially hundreds of thousands of pounds
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had gone missing at the hands of Samoa
Rugby's board members,
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including our Prime Minister.
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The most disappointing part
was that a lot of this money was publicly raised.
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Everyone had donated because they wanted to
see us do well and they had pride in our team.
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So to turn up and at times not have
balls to train with, no kit.
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It just wasn't good enough.
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We played that day, but only after World
Rugby promised us that the issue would be resolved.
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but nothing ever happened. Myself and
other senior players were criticized and
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dropped for speaking out
and I never played again.
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Using this Samoan proverb, myself and other
players created 'Pacific Rugby Welfare'
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to support the hundreds of Pacific
players and families living throughout the world.
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The impact that this group really
has is huge on a global scale.
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Being involved in this is
something I'm really grateful for because
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I know
the power of what we do.
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00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,520
It's always the guy that's coming behind
you that you want to
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lead a way, because the end of the
day we're here to provide for our
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families, we're here to do the same
things.
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With all other players associations
being funded by World Rugby,
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we felt it was important to have an
organisation that was totally independent,
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so that we can truly challenge the way
the sport is being run.
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I'm on my way to Romania today to
support Tongan international Sione Vaiomounga.
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Having taken up a professional rugby contract here,
Sione has become stranded after suffering from kidney failure.
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That night, I started bleeding
on my nose and
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after the game I go back to the hospital
and they said I have a kidney problem,
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and when they told me
I have to do dialysis
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and I thought the dialysis is going to make it better.
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After that I found out after a few months,
I had to do that for the rest of my life.
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00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,400
With the club ripping up his contract
because of his sickness, Sione now relies
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00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,920
on the church and local
shelters to feed his family.
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00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,920
From that moment I know,
maybe after that
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I'd never play again,
I'd never get paid again.
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It was horrible.
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Leaving Sione, knowing he may well die
here in Romania was heartbreaking
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00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,720
and I couldn't imagine having to move my
family around the world to live in these conditions
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and earn just €8,000 a year.
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00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,840
So how is it that rugby, a sport
supposedly built on its strong values
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00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,040
is able to treat some of its best, yet
poorest players,
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people like Rupeni and Sione, like raw
commodities
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only to be exploited in what is now a
global business.
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00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,840
To find out, I've decided to travel back
to the Pacific
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to speak with those in charge of the
game there and get their side of the story.
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00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,960
My first stop is to Sione's homeland of
Tonga, a nation that provides the most
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00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,160
professional contact sports athletes per
capita in the world.
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00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,680
Here I am in Tongatapu,
the northernmost point of Tonga.
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It's where Abel Tasman
first landed in 1643, the first
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00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,720
first European to ever set
foot in these islands.
215
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:23,920
He was met just out here
500m off the coast by a sole canoe with 6 locals on board,
216
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:28,760
who he traded nails for coconuts
water and pork.
217
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:33,520
First real links I guess to
colonisation here in the Pacific, 500 years ago.
218
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:42,080
'For many years now the people of Tonga
have been united in friendship with the people of the British Commonwealth.
219
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,760
As all Tonga prepares to welcome Queen
Elizabeth of the Commonwealth
220
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:47,680
and His Royal Highness the Duke of
Edinburgh.
221
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:52,360
The two Queens meet as friends
as they did on another great occasion at
222
00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:54,800
the coronation of Queen Elizabeth in
London.
223
00:17:56,120 --> 00:18:00,560
By the early 1800s European settlers had
arrived throughout the Pacific,
224
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,840
bringing with them two components that
became the cornerstone of life here in the islands.
225
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,880
Christianity and Rugby.
226
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,800
The boardroom and the finances in the
boardroom are stilll not being managed well.
227
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,080
World Rugby, in my view, they need to hold people accountable that
228
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:51,120
are representing them
in the countries like Tonga because
229
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:54,360
what's quite evident in professional rugby
230
00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:59,760
is that the games or the success of the team is
won in the boardroom.
231
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:05,520
We have so many talented children.
Because of eligibility rules
232
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,400
they're locked up. That should never
be the situation.
233
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:18,320
At the 2019 Rugby World Cup, 42 players
with Pacific heritage represented other nations.
234
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,240
World Rugby currently operates a one
nation for life rule,
235
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,280
forcing these players to give up a huge
part of their identity.
236
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:27,760
These players could choose to play for
their island teams,
237
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,520
but knowing that you've got villages,
families and communities relying on the
238
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,600
money being sent back from overseas
rugby players,
239
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:39,280
it can often feel selfish to play for
your island team, knowing how little money you'll recieve.
240
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,880
Born in Auckland to Tongan parents,
Charles Piutau is a former All-Black
241
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,280
last playing for
New Zealand five years ago.
242
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:52,040
Charles is hopeful the laws may change,
so he can play with his brother who captains Tonga.
243
00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:56,320
I think the start of it was my parents
had left their home country Tonga
244
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,760
to come to New Zealand for a better opportunity for us kids.
245
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:05,680
I think financially, growing up in a family
and being the youngest out of 10,
246
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,120
seeing the sacrifices that my
parents have made,
247
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:12,160
you're always going to be like
financially these teams that have more
248
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,120
the Australias and New Zealands,
you're going to gravitate towards that
249
00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:20,320
I count myself very fortunate and lucky to be able
to put on the black jersey and represent New Zealand.
250
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:29,440
I guess there's possibly another opportunity
as well to represent another country of my heritage.
251
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,120
and something that is very close to me.
252
00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:35,960
And on top of that, my brother's
been playing for Tonga for a while now.
253
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:41,760
Being a Pacific Islander is always
helping our community or giving back.
254
00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:47,840
Still one of the world's best players,
Charles is unable to bring his experience back
255
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,760
for the development and
benefit of Tonga.
256
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:57,480
But this wasn't always the case. Before 2001,
players were able to represent a second eligible nation.
257
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:04,240
I was fortunate to be able to play both
for the All Blacks and Manu Samoa,
258
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,160
and what a privilege it was to go back.
259
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,680
Once you play one test match that's it,
you're stuck for life.
260
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,640
How can that be a
good, positive thing?
261
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,080
It's all about growing the game,
262
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:15,400
and if you've got something to give
263
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,760
and are still able to give it, why do they stop you?
264
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,520
Why should they stop you from
giving it?
265
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,680
There are a group of nations that are
obviously the top ones,
266
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:30,000
with all the money and all the resources.
They've been successful forever,
267
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,600
and it's a bit about protecting
that.
268
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:38,520
If they're truly about growing the
game globally,
269
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:44,040
you've got to look at other options and
you've got to look at them with open eyes.
270
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,440
They galvanised the
Rugby League World Cup.
271
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,800
no one knew the League World Cup was on,
until Tonga played.
272
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,320
I was like 'oh here we go again,
Australia's gonna thrash everyone'.
273
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,200
Oh, no. Here's Tonga.
274
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,200
You see the impact of these players coming back
with experience of a professional environment,
275
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:20,200
getting the right coaches and being in a
structured competition like the NRL.
276
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,440
It's very professional.
277
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:28,040
These players know what a professional is,
they know how to play at that elite level.
278
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,560
My hope is that it does change.
279
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,960
Because if it doesn't, I think all the Samoans,
Tongans and Fijians will go to play League.
280
00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:41,800
Because I think League is on the right track,
they're doing something better than Rugby Union.
281
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,480
The impact is real. When I used
to play, we used to beat Japan by 30-odd points.
282
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,840
Now it's the other way round and
Japan have got four or five Tongans.
283
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,560
Yes they are being developed overseas,
through the competitions overseas,
284
00:22:55,560 --> 00:23:00,880
You can't tell me that you go to school in one country
and then that country will be telling you
285
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:07,040
no you can't work for America, or so and so,
because we schooled you here and you stay here.
286
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:15,120
No, that mentality is again, not different from
slave owners. You don't own the person.
287
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:21,120
Rugby Academy Tonga is funded by the
biggest player agency in the world.
288
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,200
With other branches in Fiji and Samoa,
they are one of a number of scouts and
289
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:31,360
professional clubs who link overseas teams and schools
with children and players throughout the Pacific.
290
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,680
For the first time last year we've had a
school from New Zealand ask for a 13-year old.
291
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,240
It's too young.
292
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,600
I've started seeing contracts signed by kids now,
293
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:48,120
coming out of here that they're
not to play for Tonga, they're to play for Japan.
294
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,520
This is Tonga Rugby Headquarters.
295
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:04,160
With two empty rooms,
two laptops and no training facilities of their own,
296
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,000
it's easy to see why players would move
to play overseas.
297
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,360
all of this makes it even more
remarkable that Tonga are ranked 13th in the world.
298
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,000
and with the union having so little
money, Tonga haven't even
299
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,200
been able to rebuild their stadium
damaged in a cyclone two years ago.
300
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:29,280
With another storm approaching, I'm looking for a sheltered
spot to meet with a man who ran Tonga Rugby for four years.
301
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,240
It is really, really tough.
302
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:43,760
Every year they're taking 40 players. The best 40 kids out of Tonga
303
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,560
out of a rugby population of 12,000.
304
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:53,200
At the end of it, we're just left with
nothing, but if we have some sort of financial help
305
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,960
like an evenly distributed fund
from World Rugby,
306
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,000
kids will have alternatives, they have
options
307
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:04,200
to stay here and continue on playing,
closer with their parents and
308
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,080
have better education, have better
sporting facilities.
309
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,840
In rugby, the host nation keeps 100% of
the revenue from the game
310
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,840
which is then equaled out when the
reverse fixture happens at a later date.
311
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:23,160
However, very few of the bigger nations
ever visit smaller teams, such as the Pacific Islands.
312
00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:28,800
Over the 10 years that I played for
Samoa, of the top 10 teams
313
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,920
only one team ever came and played us in
Samoa and that was Scotland.
314
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,000
Nobody else ever came.
315
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,920
And even if the bigger nations
did visit the Pacific,
316
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,800
small crowds, cheap ticket pricing and
having to pay the air fare of the opposition
317
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,320
means the hosting costs wouldn't even be covered.
318
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:56,920
This happened in 2016, when Samoa hosted the
All Blacks and made a loss of $1m NZD.
319
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,760
One potential solution would be to
introduce a revenue share model,
320
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:08,120
where the smaller nations will be given a fair share
of the match revenue they are helping to generate.
321
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,680
The structure of that should be a
worldwide thing.
322
00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:16,320
They should have the lion's
share of the gate, yeah that make sense
323
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,480
it's their home game, it's their
sponsorship, it's their everything.
324
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:27,440
But an 80/20 split, it's not going to hurt England.
325
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:33,640
That will give much needed
funding that Pacific Islands needs.
326
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,240
We talk about values, rugby values.
327
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,560
Where are the rugby values
in poaching players from another nation?
328
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:49,280
Where are the rugby values in taking £4m from a rugby
match for your gate receipts and your broadcast,
329
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:53,360
not even sharing them with an
impoverished nation?
330
00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:59,840
So much so that say when Samoa come over,
they have to do a public appeal for funds,
331
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,320
when Twickenham are making £4-5m?
332
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,360
Fiji versus England in 2016,
Twickenham is sold out with 82,000 people,
333
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:11,080
England players get paid £22,000 and the Fiji players are getting £400.
334
00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:14,080
I'm shocked by that and I think it's massively unfair
335
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:15,240
that's something that needs to be rectified.
336
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,440
Because if we're not going to even tour there
337
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,280
there should be an agreement you
guys get funded. Because I remember,
338
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,800
when we played actually Samoa, your
last game, you know we talked about it in the week
339
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,680
saying can we split our match fees? How do we
do this? How do we organise this?
340
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,840
And the problem is, everyone said it and then
just left it and didn't do anything about it.
341
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:32,880
That's the truth.
342
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:38,760
The right thing would have been to share our match
fees and you guys should get exactly what is owed to you.
343
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,600
And I think the fact that you come over to us
there's no way that you should keep the money, it should be shared.
344
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,080
I don't think it's fair that a team coming
to Twickenham
345
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,360
to play that is providing
a spectacle,
346
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,160
which all these Pacific Island teams make
the game exciting they make the physicality,
347
00:27:54,160 --> 00:28:00,160
they should be remunerated and
I think that should be part of ticket sales from the day.
348
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,800
Everyone puts their hand up
says they're going to do good stuff and
349
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,000
then nothing happens because no one does
anything about it and everyone just forgets about it
350
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,840
and we do a huddle of
solidarity and we'll go 'with you brother'
351
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,480
and then we f**k off and play you know
New Zealand next week.
352
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,360
That's the way it goes. It's a shame
but it is the way it goes.
353
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,880
And that's what happens in rugby.
We're told what to do,
354
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,720
where to be and if you stick
your head up and say like
355
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:28,520
you've experienced because I know I've seen
stuff about threats to you, your family.
356
00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:30,720
You're suddenly seen as a trouble maker.
357
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,280
I've never wanted to be seen as a troublemaker,
358
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,040
I've always loved this game and I would
have loved to have played for longer.
359
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,240
But I've always wanted to
do the right thing.
360
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,600
But speaking out, particularly against
authority isn't easy in a culture like Samoa,
361
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:04,440
where respect for elders means
everything and if you do speak out, quite often
362
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:05,440
you're shot down.
363
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,120
'I explained to them that their function is to play,
364
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,120
you don't get yourself involved in management.'
365
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:20,880
I think he ought to be taken to a mental
confinement, he is utter stupid.
366
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,840
My first stop in Samoa is to my Dad's
villages of Falefa and Faleapuna,
367
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,080
where I want to find out how me speaking
out against authority has affected my
368
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,200
Dad and his role as village Chief.
369
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:20,440
Upon arrival, the village elders welcome
me back with a traditional 'ava' drinking ceremony,
370
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,640
and in return, Dad and I present some new
rugby kits for our village team.
371
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,320
Awesome!
372
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,520
This is the village where
my Mum grew up, and
373
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,200
Daniel's Grandmother and when you play
rugby everybody knows who you are
374
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,200
especially when you
represent the country.
375
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,720
It's a great honour for our
families and the village.
376
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:02,240
When that whole issue rise with the Prime Minister
and all that stuff
377
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:07,080
with your position to speak out what you feel is
right, I think that's
378
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,080
your passion and
as long as you do it right.
379
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:16,120
To me as a parent, I was disappointed with some
of the words that
380
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,640
the Prime Minister has been saying towards you.
I felt like you've been
381
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,520
serving the country more than 10 years.
382
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:26,320
It's the words that he's been
selecting to use,
383
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,960
it's offending. To me, it's
offending.
384
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,800
I check out what you say, what
you write and what you put it on the
385
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,200
paper sometimes,
I'll have the right to voice my opinion to you,
386
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,840
to guide you to make sure you stay on the
line with what you say.
387
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,600
Dad's blessing is encouraging me to push on,
and it's now time to visit the
388
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,760
Samoa Rugby Union to try and get some answers.
389
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,320
Talofa , is this the Prime Minister's
office?
390
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:55,480
'Yes this is the.'
391
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,880
My name is Daniel Leo,
from Pacific Rugby Players Welfare,
392
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:03,200
I'm just ringing to try and confirm an
appointment
393
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,800
to interview the Prime Minister, the
Chairman of the Samoan Rugby Union?
394
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:12,000
Hello?
395
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:13,920
'Daniel?'
396
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,200
'Can you
ring me again tomorrow?'
397
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,160
Not knowing if the Chairman will agree
to see me,
398
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,800
I'm heading to the Rugby Union
to speak with the CEO.
399
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:41,920
The governance isn't good enough,
you've got politics involved
400
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,720
people say that we
can't run our own unions
401
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,600
we're not capable of
running our own unions,
402
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,360
what are your
responses to those?
403
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:58,240
We've had issues. I can admit that. We've had issues
within the Union over the years.
404
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:05,440
I think a lot of decisions that's been made
within the Union is
405
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,400
basically due to our financial
constraints.
406
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:14,320
We can't employ top professional people into the
Union, we can't afford to pay them.
407
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:21,600
To roll out our programmes at the moment
it's around about $11m tala to fulfil our programmes.
408
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:32,400
60% is locally funded with a few here
and there from a few overseas partners.
409
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,680
and then the other 30% is funded
by World Rugby.
410
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,440
But we're in a difficult situation for
us because
411
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:45,920
we can't get those sizeable sponsors
because we don't play that many games.
412
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:51,400
Without Government, there would
be no Rugby Union in Samoa and that's the honest truth.
413
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,600
It's crazy that for a nation whose
assets provide so much to the game's global economy,
414
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,040
they have to rely on public funds and
donations just to survive.
415
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,480
I believe the reason for this lies in
the makeup of the World Rugby Council
416
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,200
who make decisions on things
such as eligibility laws
417
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,160
and who elect the 'Executive Committee' to deal
with the financial side of the game.
418
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,880
The 10 sides that play in the 6 Nations
and Rugby Championship competitions
419
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,920
are known as Tier 1 nations.
420
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,720
and with 3 votes each,
make up 60% of the council.
421
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:30,640
The other 120 rugby playing nations are known as
Tier 2 and 3, or 'emerging nations'.
422
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:35,320
They have 9 votes between them and represent
less than 20% of the council.
423
00:34:38,240 --> 00:34:42,440
At Pacific Rugby Welfare, we'd actually
launched a campaign in 2018
424
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,600
to make the World Rugby
voting system fairer.
425
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,160
Unbelievably,
two weeks after the launch,
426
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,840
Both the Samoa and Fiji Unions came out
and condemned us.
427
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,880
The only reason I can
imagine that do something like that
428
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,080
is because they were getting pressure on
them from World Rugby
429
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,720
not to cooperate with a group that's
outside of their funding circle.
430
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,320
Do you think it's right that the players
associations are funded by World Rugby?
431
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:11,040
We do currently have an
investment agreement with World Rugby
432
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:16,320
that comes with special conditions.
Unfortunately, like anything else that
433
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,160
that's funded from the
outside, whether it's in
434
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,400
government or any
organisation/donor. They don't
435
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,600
just hand you the money,
it comes with special conditions that
436
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,560
you have to apply in an agreement
you know it's a two-way thing.
437
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,400
If there's anything going forward
that you feel that
438
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,520
if that conflict of interest is in the way
with their funding,
439
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,080
please do get in touch.
440
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:46,840
The chair is very supportive of the
issues that you ping World Rugby on!
441
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,560
They can't they can't really say
anything but you know...
442
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,840
The CEO saying the Samoa Rugby Union
were quietly supportive of us,
443
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,280
but couldn't say anything against World Rugby,
made me really start to question
444
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,400
the relationship the governing body has
with its member unions.
445
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,080
and later that day, whilst watching the
local sevens tournament,
446
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:11,160
Sina Retzlaff, one of Samoa Rugby's
first female board members came and found me,
447
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,880
wanting to talk about that very
relationship between Samoa and World Rugby.
448
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,200
You can't be in a development partner relationship
449
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,120
with an organisation who's going to
450
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,520
hang the carrot of we're
going to pull our money on you.
451
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,120
It's like being married to someone who
threatens to divorce you every week.
452
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:34,160
Because you can say that we're on par
and you can say that we
453
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,240
we respect you and we're partners in
this,
454
00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:40,320
but if you're a partner that doesn't
make me feel that we're on that the
455
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:45,160
balance of power has been
has been equaled out, then that's not the
456
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,440
reality of the relationship.
And I say this as an example because
457
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:53,760
I've been at the SRU office, for example,
458
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:58,240
And when I'm insisting on
something, the answer has been
459
00:36:58,240 --> 00:36:59,800
but what if they pull out?
460
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,280
And personally, go.
461
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,920
If you have criteria that you don't want to
listen to us about,
462
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:12,160
and you say that they
are make or break for you World Rugby,
463
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,680
and you need to pull out.
464
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,760
What's stopping you from pulling out?
465
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:19,760
'They need us'.
466
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,160
So tell the world that you're
pulling out of Samoa,
467
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,680
and we'll tell you how many Samoans are
so good at this game,
468
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,360
that you'll lose out on, or will
probably back us.
469
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,640
I'm starting to think the Samoan Union
is in a really difficult position.
470
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,320
they're scared of speaking up against
World Rugby for fear of losing their funding,
471
00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:00,280
and therefore have to rely on the
government to keep them from bankruptcy.
472
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,520
'Good evening.'
473
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:11,000
Here in Samoa, we have a curfew between 7:30
and 8pm,
474
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:16,880
where everybody has to go inside and
it's a time of prayer and Bible reading
475
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,240
and self-reflection so
yeah, no one's out on the streets,
476
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:24,880
they close down all the streets
and these guys around us are the guys that police that.
477
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,880
8pm, curfew has lifted and
we're free to drive through again.
478
00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:49,000
'Your interview with the PM is
at 2pm this afternoon,
479
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:50,120
on the programme'.
480
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,200
Yes, okay, great.
So that's confirmed?
481
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:53,720
'Yep.'
482
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:55,920
Okay, thank you very much.
We'll see you at 2 o'clock.
483
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,080
'You're welcome, bye.'
484
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:58,800
Yep. Thank you, bye-bye.
485
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,400
Right, let's go and speak to the man himself,
two o'clock.
486
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,400
I came to Samoa not knowing if our Prime
Minister would agree to see me
487
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:16,560
especially as I've been so outspoken about
his involvement with Samoa Rugby in the past.
488
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,400
So not wanting to worry my family,
I haven't told them about this meeting,
489
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,600
but with some of the personal threats
still clear in my head,
490
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,120
I'm starting to wonder if coming to the
government building on my own is a good idea.
491
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,840
Do we need to knock now or what?
I don't know what the procedure is.
492
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:43,560
It's his office, is it?
493
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,920
Whilst sitting in the waiting room, the
Prime Minister's Secretary came
494
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,680
and said that he wanted to speak to me
off camera.
495
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:04,760
He told me he no longer wanted to give the interview,
but instead would give his answers in writing.
496
00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:10,560
However, after explaining
how far I'd come
497
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,520
and that this was an opportunity to
give his side of the story,
498
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,360
he changed his mind.
499
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,280
Well thanks again for
giving us your time,
500
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,720
could you just expand on
some of the challenges faced by Samoan Rugby?
501
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,840
You know, the whole thing is unfair.
502
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,440
We are helping to replenish
503
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:35,480
the huge bank accounts of the big boys,
Tier 1,
504
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:40,440
and we are constantly
in bankruptcy.
505
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:46,320
We have now four years
of clean, audit opinion,
506
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:51,840
which is a major
feat for our Union.
507
00:40:51,840 --> 00:41:00,800
We need to look
more positively at the issue of eligiblity.
508
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:08,720
I can understand the reluctance
of the Tier 1 countries.
509
00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:15,000
The reluctance is due to a
very selfish and narrow interpretation,
510
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:24,520
That is not looking at the wider
goal of building the game.
511
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:29,000
And I must
thank you for this interview.
512
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,600
Faafetai lava, thank you very much,
513
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:36,800
I know we always haven't
always seen eye to eye on certain issues,
514
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,720
but I appreciate you having me here.
515
00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:44,880
Look, whatever you can do to help us, very good.
516
00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:49,160
It's interesting I think I came here to
the islands
517
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,560
thinking that the involvement of
politics was a really bad thing,
518
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:59,000
and as we've gone along you realise
that there's no other option.
519
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:05,200
The financial aspect of rugby is too far
skewed for it to be any other way.
520
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:11,200
The fact that as we left, he asked me
'anything you can do Dan to help would be hugely appreciated'
521
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,720
sort of got me realising that
522
00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:19,240
they're desperate, Samoan rugby is desperate
and Pacific Island rugby is desperate.
523
00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:22,160
So yeah, what the answer is,
I'm not sure just yet,
524
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:26,240
but hopefully us being here, us
documenting this
525
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:29,360
and really highlighting these issues is
going to make a difference in some way.
526
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,920
Upon leaving the Prime Minister's office,
I can't help but feel I may have fallen
527
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,520
victim to a few of our
Chairman's mind games.
528
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:43,840
This was a man who was used to
deflecting pressure and wriggling out of tricky situations.
529
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,000
but he raised some good points.
530
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:50,240
4 years of clean accounts
show Samoan Rugby is headed in the right direction.
531
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,240
Yet, I'm still convinced Pacific Rugby, as
a whole, would be better off without the
532
00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:56,280
interference and dependence on
government.
533
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:03,040
So, is the situation the fault of the
island unions or is the system set up for them to fail?
534
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,920
We are misdirected in where our disappointment
535
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,160
and where our anger and where we feel
536
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,200
there needs to be change.
Yes, the Samoan Rugby Union have problems.
537
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,080
They get these
petty little handouts from World Rugby,
538
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:22,640
and yet once again, like we know, we've
sold out Twickenham on non-world cup years
539
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:27,240
we sell out all of our World Cup
games, we make them millions.
540
00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:32,680
We actually play games where we get nothing from it.
That is ridiculous.
541
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:41,160
Rugby has never been the leading moral savior of
of human rights, it's never protected human rights.
542
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,400
Remember, rugby used to go
to South Africa throughout apartheid,
543
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:50,040
All Blacks had to go and if you
took a brown guy you had to be an honorary 'white'.
544
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,600
people are just ignorant to blaming it on the Samoa
Rugby Union,
545
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:59,040
There is a bigger enemy here,
there's a bigger problem here, and that is World Rugby.
546
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:06,480
As my time in Samoa is coming to an end,
I can't help but feel we're being taken advantage of.
547
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,960
Our history of player revolts, our
corrupt unions, and our government interference
548
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,920
seem the perfect excuse for the Tier
1 nations not to pay us our fair share.
549
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:21,880
But are these nations deliberately
allowing this to happen in the Pacific,
550
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,320
out of fear of losing
control of the sport?
551
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,040
I'm here at Mount Vaea, on the way up to
Robert Louis Stevenson's grave,
552
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:35,080
the famous Scottish author who wrote
'Treasure Island', and was buried here in the 1890s.
553
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,840
Stevenson was a much loved figure among
the Samoan people, who stood up against
554
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,560
the colonial powers at the time,
Britain, America and Germany,
555
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:49,000
who divided and exploited the local population to
gain control of the region.
556
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,240
I can't help but compare colonialism to
what's happening in rugby.
557
00:44:56,240 --> 00:45:00,240
Our resources have been continuously
extracted with very little ever given back.
558
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:07,560
Here it is, made it!
559
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:10,400
What a legend.
560
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:15,360
I love back then that
he came to Samoa and was anti-colonial.
561
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,160
He would have been so unpopular.
562
00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:22,120
Probably a bit like us making this
documentary with World Rugby.
563
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,760
It's now time for me to head back to
Europe.
564
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,960
With everything I've seen and
heard here, I need to meet with World Rugby,
565
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,000
to tell them what I've learned and
hear their side of the story.
566
00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:37,160
But being outside of their funding circle,
and their past
567
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:39,760
refusal to acknowledge
Pacific Rugby Welfare,
568
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,560
I don't even know if they'll agree to
speak to me, let alone record an interview.
569
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,760
'It's being touted as the largest shakeup
in modern rugby history.
570
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,720
The biggest problem so far, The Pacific Island nations
locked out competely, don't get a look in.'
571
00:45:59,720 --> 00:46:05,720
'It would include just 12 nations, the current
6 Nations and the Rugby Championship countries,
572
00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:08,480
with Japan and the US brought in.
573
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:14,800
And it's big money for those in the exclusive club,
reportedly up to $14m per nation each season.'
574
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:19,000
'Only the 12 nations that have been
included will will develop, the rest won't
575
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:20,280
including the Pacific Islands.'
576
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,600
'Does rugby exploit
the Pacific Islands?
577
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:23,360
Yes.'
578
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,920
'They're the teams that produce the best
rugby players in the world, hands down.
579
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,160
I really, really hope that it doesn't happen.'
580
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:38,960
'Pacific rugby players are threatening to boycott the
World Cup this year if plans for a new world competition go ahead.'
581
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:44,040
As a player's association, your strongest
point of leverage is really not to play,
582
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:45,800
and we believe that this,
583
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:51,760
this announcement
strikes enough worry for that to be a real option.'
584
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,600
We've been filming this documentary for
about 2 years now,
585
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,240
and the whole time trying to get an
interview with World Rugby
586
00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:10,160
has been really difficult.
587
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,680
Unbelievably, I've just had an email from
the CEO, Brett Gosper,
588
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,520
this morning saying he's in
London and willing to do an interview.
589
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:21,280
So I just rang up a mate
to come and look after Toby,
590
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,360
and this could be the only opportunity I
get to speak with them.
591
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:31,040
The last time I spoke to World Rugby's
CEO was in a live TV interview,
592
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,440
when I challenged him for standing off
on the big issues affecting Pacific rugby.
593
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,160
'But of course there's an economic
benefit to the players concerned.'
594
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:38,720
I don't think that's good enough Brett.
595
00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:40,120
'Okay, there's an economic...'
596
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,280
I don't think that's good enough that
you're letting people make decisions who
597
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,200
don't have a professional background.
598
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,080
If you want to be successful,
you've got to know what success looks like.
599
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:54,120
This time round, I feel I have a much
clearer view on the challenges facing Pacific Island rugby,
600
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,120
and more importantly, what the solutions
are.
601
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,200
We need a hand up not
necessarily a handout.
602
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,800
I just see World Rugby as just a ghost
that's in the air,
603
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,920
I haven't really
come across any of them.
604
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:08,000
It is a universal
human right, declared by the United Nations
605
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,080
that you have the right
to change your nationality.
606
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,360
My problem is
that you don't in rugby.
607
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:18,480
How these guys get on the boards
and get into positions of real power
608
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:24,480
in the Pacific Island unions, I think there needs to
be some stronger directive from World Rugby.
609
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,760
Brett Gosper would not
be CEO if he had gone to prison for manslaughter.
610
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:32,160
The unfair voting system,
that's bollocks, frankly. We all know that it's rubbish.
611
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:38,120
It is an uneven playing field,
we're battling a fight that I don't see changes.
612
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:43,000
Until we get real, and until we
give those nations a fair chance,
613
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:48,440
rugby basically can hang his head in
shame, because it is not fulfilling its own values.
614
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:55,880
Just firstly, could you just explain what
you see as the biggest challenges facing the Pacific
615
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,080
and the development of Pacific Island
rugby?
616
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,440
I think the biggest challenge is
for the players to stay long enough in their country to be
617
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,760
captured by their country and represent
their country as they wish.
618
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:07,480
So, just from a personal point of view,
619
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:12,080
Do you ever see any of the
Pacific Island sides, Tonga and Samoa
620
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:17,360
particularly ever achieving
the 3-vote status?
621
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,320
Maybe not while I'm here.
622
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:24,360
But I think it's possible though yeah,
I do think it's possible.
623
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,320
I mean it's not easy,
but it is possible.
624
00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:33,320
Would a one nation, one vote model
not be more fair?
625
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:37,080
Well it doesn't really reflect
either the history
626
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:42,800
or maybe to a certain extent the
economics contribution to the game at this point in time.
627
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:48,280
Certainly, um,
a lot of the one nation, one vote
628
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:54,880
Can often, um, create issues of
of managing all of those numbers of countries.
629
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,840
What are your thoughts on
the involvement of politicians?
630
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,960
It's too simplistic to say they shouldn't be
involved or they should be involved,
631
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,920
what's important is when they're
involved, they're involved constructively.
632
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:05,400
We see mostly that.
633
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,280
And when it does manifest
itself in a negative way,
634
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:12,040
what sort of
accountability is there to World Rugby?
635
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:17,160
Well it's very hard for us to hold
a Prime Minister of a country accountable.
636
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:21,560
We completely agree with and adhere
to the sovereignty of each of those
637
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:23,000
unions to decide
their own fate.
638
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,280
and hopefully they're making the right
calls for the sport in their regions.
639
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:28,280
It's quite intimidating as
a player to have
640
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,040
your Prime Minister
as the Chairman.
641
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,360
One thing he
did mention, was this
642
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:38,960
idea of a profit share even, it was a fraction you know
5 or 10% of the gate takings at Twickenham
643
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:40,280
would make a huge difference.
644
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,200
Yeah it's true and this
comes up every year.
645
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:47,360
We've perhaps fallen short a little bit
in that area but it's a domain we don't like to get into.
646
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,840
It's difficult for us to
impose on other unions,
647
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:54,440
a percentage of gate or otherwise,
648
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,080
that may have knock-on effects in other
relationships they have with other
649
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:01,640
nations and where do you draw the line?
And what exactly is a Tier 2 nation?
650
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:05,800
Again, this is the sovereignty
of the receiving nation to
651
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,360
manage their affairs as best
they can as well.
652
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:12,040
We've not come up with a solution, that doesn't
impinge on
653
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:15,960
the individual contractual rights of those unions setting up those games.
654
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:19,800
When I was in the Pacific, a lot of
the guys there said that
655
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:23,240
they'd like World Rugby regulation or
just the bigger nations,
656
00:51:23,240 --> 00:51:25,720
to look more favorably on
areas like eligibility.
657
00:51:25,720 --> 00:51:30,760
We've debated this a lot in
council meetings and so on.
658
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,800
There just does not seem to be the...
659
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:35,800
some countries are favorable to that, others
aren't.
660
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:41,280
Overall, there seems to not be the appetite
for that return to players.
661
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:45,480
This one country
approach to rugby is very tidy,
662
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:50,000
The unions themselves, the members, are
not overwhelmingly in favour of that return,
663
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:54,720
and it's very hard just to say to people
look, think bigger,
664
00:51:54,720 --> 00:51:58,200
think bigger and don't be so
small-minded and only think of your own union.
665
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:03,080
Do you think those
values are being lived out by
666
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:06,880
some of those nations, or is it
just protectionism?
667
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:13,680
It's a difficult one, because at the end
of the day, I understand
668
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:18,840
why those unions are protective about what they have and
their remit is to look after their own unions.
669
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:22,360
Look, I do think the values of rugby,
generally,
670
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,440
and we go out of our way to
ensure that whether it's on the pitch or off the
671
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:29,400
pitch that they're fulfilled and that
they're promoted.
672
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,160
Look, I just think it's disappointing
673
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,480
that we didn't win
win the argument for everyone.
674
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,280
After meeting Brett, I too was
disappointed.
675
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:48,440
Disappointed that World Rugby won't take
responsibility for the state of the game,
676
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:52,200
and instead pass the buck on to the
powerful Tier 1 nations.
677
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:56,920
For World Rugby to laugh at my thought
of achieving equal voting power,
678
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:00,240
and for the CEO to not even know what a
Tier 2 nation was,
679
00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:02,040
shows how far behind the sport is.
680
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:05,920
On the surface,
rugby continues to present itself as
681
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:10,720
following noble values,
'equality, fairness and sportsmanship' but
682
00:53:10,720 --> 00:53:15,320
underneath it seems nothing has changed
since the colonial days of the Tier 1 countries' past.
683
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:21,440
The reality is that rugby is treating
the Pacific Islands and its players as a commodity,
684
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:24,720
like any natural resource that is being
exploited for profit.
685
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,160
So, how can the
Pacific Islands move forward?
686
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:32,480
I believe there are 3
things that need to be done.
687
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:37,720
We need to be receiving our fair share
of money we are helping others to earn.
688
00:53:37,720 --> 00:53:41,800
Rugby's funding model has trapped the
islands into a handout mentality,
689
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:46,120
where a reliance on small donations has
stolen our ability to earn greater income.
690
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:52,680
We also need the eligibility rules to
change, so that we can access all of our players.
691
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:57,160
Allowing a single change from a Tier 1
down to a Tier 2 nation of heritage
692
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,360
would have an immediate effect on
growing the global game,
693
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,000
and best of all, it wouldn't cost a thing.
694
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:08,720
Underpinning this all, is the fact there
has to be changed to the way rugby is governed.
695
00:54:08,720 --> 00:54:12,840
We cannot continue to allow unelected,
incompetent officals
696
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,360
and government politicians, to use rugby
for their own personal gain
697
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:19,840
while the Tier 1 nations continue to
hoard the majority of profits and power
698
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:21,680
to the detriment of our nations.
699
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:26,760
If we can achieve these things, the
future of Pacific rugby looks bright,
700
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,960
and rest assured, I won't give up on trying
to improve the game we love.
68503
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