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[interviewer] Do you like,
would you like to have

longevity? I mean, you
know, live to you're old.

-You can be.
-[John laughs]

[John] You are digging deep.

This sod is gonna be around
for centuries.

Watch me now.

I'm one of the very few
people in pop history

that just will not go away.
[giggles]

[music starts]

[crowd cheering]

♪ Hello, hello, hello
Hello, hello, hello ♪

♪ You never listened to
A word that I said ♪

♪ You only seen me from
The clothes that I wear ♪

♪ Or did the interest
Go so much deeper ♪

♪ It must have been
To the color of my hair ♪

♪ The public image ♪

♪ Public image you got
What you wanted ♪

♪ The public image
Belongs to me ♪

♪ It's my entrance
My own creation ♪

♪ My grand finale
My goodbye ♪

♪ Public image ♪

♪ Goodbye ♪

[interviewer] You're quite
famous, aren't you?

[John] Yeah, I suppose so.

How did all that happen?

I don't know.

Through being honest.

["Anarchy In The UK" playing]

♪ Right now ♪

♪ Ha, ha, ha, ha ♪

[interviewer] And who would
you say is a good singer?

-I don't.
-[interviewer laughs]

I don't have any heroes.

They're all useless.

[John] When the Sex Pistols
first started,

I grabbed the opportunity
to just

yipee-ya-yow all these books
I've read.

All this knowledge in me head.

The concept of singing
never occurred to me.

♪ I want to be ♪

♪ Anarchy ♪

[interviewer] What's this thing
you've got against hippies?

They're complacent.

Punk was really what
energized people

to realize that they could
get off their bums

and make things
happen themselves.

[interviewer] I think you're
trying to shut people.

I don't give a shit
what you think.

I know what I think and that's
all what counts to me.

Johnny Rotten
was a piece of work.

I worked on being Johnny Rotten.

♪ I use the best
I use the rest ♪

♪ I use the enemy ♪

And you gotta understand.
This guy, he came

from relative obscurity.

to becoming like public enemy
number one in like a few months.

♪ Anarchist ♪

♪ Get pissed
Destroy ♪

[interviewer] How'd you react
to the reputation that

your group is the most
revolting in the country?

Look, our group is creating
a generation gap

for the first time in
five years in this country

and a lot of people are feeling
genuinely threatened by it.

If the kids wanna
buy the record,

it's called "Anarchy in the UK".

It's out in the shops, they
can make their own decisions.

[John] This is no fun.

There's not very much fun
being in a band like that.

We're completely thrown
in the deep end right

from the start.

The sheer drudgery
of having to deal with

a management that really wasn't
comprehending much at all.

You know, it was more into

the sensationalism aspect
of the thing.

[John laughs] Ever get
the feeling you've been cheated.

-Good night!
-[crowd cheers]

"Ever get the feeling
you've been cheated?"

It's just an off the cuff remark

but it's based
on so much thought.

And, and-- and angles
and positions that I've had to,

like, uh, assume, tolerate

and, uh, ultimately walk away
from and that's what I did.

I was expected to live up
to the press' [bleeped].

-[interviewer] And did you?
-No.

[interviewer] Well, take
for instance, um...

That's why I was disliked.

-[interviewer] Well, take for--
-I will not be a puppet.

I will not act out
somebody else's pantomime.

I was fighting this, uh,
ridiculous court case

with Malcolm
and the Sex Pistols.

The situation was, uh, legally

until it was proved in court,

couldn't use the name
Johnny Rotten.

'Cause it was contested so...
John Lydon it was.

Particularly, the management
financially wanted to wreck me

and all's I had really was
the, uh, the deeds of

the, uh, flat in Gunter Grove.

It was very nice of the manager
in hindsight to credit himself

for the great, many things.

But he could not in any way,
shape or form, say, he created

me, Steve, Paul, Glen or Sid.

If you'd spend half an hour
with John Lydon, you knew

that he wasn't invented.

His personal history and his
life was what he was all about.

Meningitis has been
the one thing I've

always struggled with.

So my mom
and dad are very quiet.

And being the eldest
and being ill

all the time when I was young,

I didn't really express
meself very well.

They hardly knew I was ill.

'Till, you know, he hasn't
moved now for two weeks.

I think he's ill. [laughs]

I'd have fits and I suppose,
like, acid trip delusions.

That's when they brought me
to the hospital 'cause the brain

was completely gone on me.

And I-- and I felt a bit like

like an observer inside
my own head.

Meningitis,
I don't, mind you, I was seven

but what it did was it put me
into a coma for three months.

Lost my memory when
I came out of that.

Didn't know anybody or anything.
Didn't recognize my parents.

And, of course,
it made common sense

when the doctors and nurses go

"But don't you think it must
have come from somewhere?"

Yeah. But where?

Well, why would we lie to you?
This is where you come from.

Oh, me gosh,
when that comes around to you

and you realize, um...

you didn't even remember your
own parents, you feel so guilty.

I've got such clear, painful
memories of that, that feeling.

Gah, that was a lot
to go through.

And there were moments
in the next few years

where I've had freak-outs.

They'd have to call in people.

There was one particular moment.
I remember it very, very well.

I've talked to my
mother after about it.

There's a bunch of complete
strangers in white coats going,

um, "Are not happy here?
Do you want to leave?"

"We'll take care of you."

And they seemed ever so
much more frightening

than a situation I wasn't, uh,
feeling very, like, safe with.

And, and that was a very good
decision to not go with that.

And it went on like that for
a whole, quite few years.

I took on the role of looking
out for my younger brothers.

So I acted like
a surrogate parent

'cause my father worked
away a lot of the time,

my mother was ill
almost all of the time.

I find myself back
in the family.

And then the memories
would flood back in.

and I'd realize I was
in a family after all.

And I had a second chance.

Because when you lose
your memory

and it takes you four years
to get it back.

You got an awful long time
as a young kid

to work things out.

I loved being the DJ as a child.

When Mom and Dad
would come back from the pub

with all their friends.

I'd be the one
that would put the records on.

And I'd watch them
all night dancing.

I knew what would
next get them.

You know, I remember he's
having mad parties around here.

Dancing on a table and breaking
a table and John's dad...

Next day, he's fixing a table
but he's putting

industrial bolts for it, like,
you know what I mean?

Everybody is to mix and match,
you know?

If, if mom and dad were having
a party at your house,

well then, you go next
door on your own.

Whoever that would be would be

anyone that lived
in neighborhood.

[Reggie] Fins Park is a kind
of place where...

They're for everyone together.

Black, white, yellow,
pink, blue.

Greek, Irish, Jamaican.
And um...

You'd gonna get on with it.

[Johnny] I'd DJ'd reggae
when I headed down to here

in a reggae club. Deep reggae.

Finsbury Park.

You know, it's part
of my background.

After the Sex Pistols,
Mr. Richard Branson,

the owner of Virgin Records
asked me

to, uh, be some kind of adviser

to what was good or bad reggae.

Imma browsing the sounds office,
wrapping the paper for the week.

And the phone rang.

And John was on the phone,
he was with Richard Branson,

and he was like,

"How'd you fancy coming
to Jamaica with me?"

And then I ran into
Don on the 52 Bus.

'Cause we lived around
the corner from each other.

Next thing I knew,
Don was coming too.

Right when I crossed the
islands, on the jungle drums.

Rich, white man, signing up,
reggae artist.

And for the next two weeks,
there was like...

exodus of musicians.

to the Sheraton,
trying to get a deal.

That's was where we'd make
the deal. At the Sheraton.

Johnny Rotten
was there with him.

He's a fan of mine.

[Vivien] They would look at John
and sometimes they would say,

"Look!", I can't do the action.

"It's not him. It's him who did
God save the Queen!"

And then all of a sudden,
"Yestreen, we Rasta."

While John was in Jamaica,

Malcolm was trying to shoot

The Great Rock 'N Roll Swindle.

And he sent a cameraman
over to film John secretly.

It was like a
Keystone Cops film.

Because we had this suite,
like, on the level

with the swimming pool,
when then

people be lurking in the bushes.

Trying to get secret
footage of me.

[laughs]

And I took it kind
of as a compliment.

You don't want me around.
You don't wanna work with me.

But you can't work without me.

I worked with Malcolm on a point

that we started
making that film.

Basically, the band split.

And I was still wanting
to make this film.

At the time, we did
laugh about it.

But it, it was sort of
covering up something

which was John busting out,

trying to discover who he could
be as an artist in his own way.

It was very, very good
going to Jamaica for me. It was.

It cleared my head in many ways.

I'm grateful about that

but the way the record company
were viewing

the outcome of that
would be was, was

very, very different from
where my head was going.

[music plays]

[interviewer] What's
stopping you forming

another band
or doing something...?

[John] It's called
Malcolm McLaren.

As soon as I get him off my
back, I'll be able to continue.

Until then, I can't release
anything without him taking

a great, big, fat share
of the profit.

Would you like to start
another band?

Yes, I am. I'm rehearsing like

all the time with
loads of people.

[interviewer] A lot of
people think that maybe

your first record would be
a reggae record.

A lot of people
are totally wrong.

[interviewer laughs]

But you have formed
a band already?

No.

But you're
rehearsing with people?

Yeah. They change every night.

[laughter]

For obvious reasons.
Personality differences.

I got back to London. I wanted
immediately to start a new band

and one that would
approach it without that

media mockery attached.

So I used the term
"Public Image Limited".

And Public Image was a book
written by Muriel Spark.

Then it's about that
media side of things

can lead to deaths
and destructions.

It was quite poignant for me.

Um, I was able to get a deal for
PiL as a tag-on for the Pistols.

So, we're off.

But the record company
was unamused

by the band members
that I picked.

They wanted to see big names.

I was completely uninterested
in the prospect of that.

Wobble was a very
good friend of mine.

And he was just
about on the verge of

learning how to play. Perfect.

Just when I'm thinking, God,
what I'm going to do meself,

I got a phone call
from John at home.

He said, "Would you come over?
Do you wanna be in a band?"

So I was, "Wow. Fantastic."
You know?

[John] Jump from here.

Keith Levene. I thought

he was the best thing
in The Clash.

He was very unhappy.

And I was unhappy
in the Pistols.

The night that I really
bonded well with Keith,

just, "I've had enough!"

And so, when the Pistols finally

fell apart, it was automatic
that we work together.

Next thing I knew, John was
saying, "Let's do it."

And I knew Wobble.

And I said, "We want
to use Wobble."

Wow, you know, what a guitarist.

You know, that's a real,
his own sound there.

You know? That's credibly rich.

And of course, it was all
fine to do it but actually,

I suspect he's
classically trained.

I mean he's very well-educated.

How many fucking
genius can go...

[plays guitar]

You know, I mean how
many times, yeah?

[John] And Jim Walker
responded to an advert.

[Jim] I walked in the room

and there is another drummer
sitting there.

And I just wanted to pick him up
and throw him out of the room.

'Cause I was gonna get the job
as far as I was concerned.

I just remember thinking,

"This bloke's really good.
This is the one."

Rotten's girlfriend came, Nora,

and that's when I knew this is
a big band, when I saw her.

She was this blonde
statuesque, German girl.

Woman. No, she's a grown woman.

And I thought,
"Well, women like that

don't hang around nobodies."

So we'd managed to scrape
and get together some pennies.

Well, I had to, 'cause
nobody else had any money.

Then started rehearsing
and the songs just flowed.

["Public Image" playing]

♪ Hello, hello, hello
Hello, hello, hello ♪

♪ You never listened
To a word that I said ♪

♪ You only seen me from
The clothes that I wear ♪

♪ Or did the interest
Go so much deeper ♪

♪ It must have been
To the color of my hair ♪

♪ The public image ♪

We recorded the backing
tracks of the "Public Image"

in this studio called Wessex
in North London.

That's where Roxy Music
and the Sex Pistols were.

And they had a genius
of an engineer named Bill Price.

He was so cool to work with.

We didn't work with
him after that. [laughs]

An assistant engineer,
with a bit of a tough guy

kind of vibe.
And they treated me,

I felt a bit
disrespectfully at a pop, so...

I bashed him up as I recall.

And we had to get out
of there quick.

I mean, the place was cool.

Welcome to your
first recording session.

♪ Public image ♪

We were quite a wild band.

And we'd drink
and we caused trouble.

There's always a huge
undercurrent of

potential danger at all times.

The way that record starts out
with Jah Wobble's baseline, um,

that really in a, in a way

really changed the landscape.

It was like a, you know, a
diagram of how to write a song.

For us at least. For me,

base starts and then
the whole thing kicks in.

♪ The public image
Belongs to me ♪

♪ It's my entrance
My own creation ♪

♪ My grand finale
My goodbye ♪

The PiL's first single had
a kind of purity and ambition

and experimentation about it

that really seems
to point to the future.

And it was a great
vindication of John that

out of what happened
at the end of the Sex Pistols.

To come straight out of that
with this, this new sound.

It was really impressive.

♪ Goodbye ♪

So I think everybody was like

probably looking, thinking
he was gonna fall down

after the Sex Pistols.

And, uh, it was really,
I think they were like, "Wow"

This is really, really good.

And then they were really
disappointed when they heard

the rest of the album.
[laughs]

My friends, they sort of thought

the Public Image album
would sound like that.

And then you get
into like "Annalisa"

and some of the darker tracks.

"Annalisa".
It was a bizarre story.

It's about a young
14-year old girl in Germany.

Her parents were convinced
she was possessed by demons.

That's when they called
in a priest and, uh,

and, uh, they suffocated
her while

trying to ex-communicate
these demons.

It actually killed
the poor girl.

♪ Annalisa Annalisa ♪

♪ Annalisa Annalisa ♪

When I went to school,
a Catholic school,

there's the quiet threat.

"Why don't you be an altar boy,
a good little Catholic?"

You know not to go
anywhere near the priests.

They get you on your own,
anything could happen.

We will all deliberately
howl out tune.

'Cause you know, you'd be
unacceptable for that role.

They were scary monsters
to me, the priests.

You couldn't accurately
describe physical molestation.

You knew it was going on
from the gossip.

And you do everyday to be
perceived as ugly and useless.

Funny how I used all
that years later.

[laughs]

My first gig was
in Belgium with Bill.

And there were some guy
who was going like...

in front of the stage.

So like, so I went up
and kicked him in the face.

It turned out he was the head
of security at the gaff.

I mean, what was the head
of security

threatening me for anyways?

It was just war.

We were kept until four
in the morning by

40 bikers that
wanted to kill us.

We ended up barricaded in
the, uh, dressing room.

♪ Absurd ♪

♪This is religion ♪

♪ There's a liar on the altar ♪

♪ The sermon never falter ♪

♪ This is religion ♪

We were getting along
perfectly and then,

then the question came
up about money.

And, um, control.

I always assumed we'd just
be four people like

The Beatles were four equal
people in their band.

And I knew Rotten had
been in the Pistols obviously,

and obviously,

he was big and we weren't
but we were all great musicians

and I know he couldn't have
done it without us, I figured.

When PiL formed,

I, I thought he's me mate
and I'll trust him.

You know, famous last words
in the music business.

It'll comes down
to the money and, uh,

there really wasn't the money
there.

I couldn't afford to keep them
in, in regular wages

and that led to all
kinds of problems.

'Cause I, I ultimately was
paying for everything.

[choir singing in
the background]

We couldn't have, have shops
open at Sundays

and nothing could be done
on Christmas Day at all.

It actually wasn't against
the law

but it was presumed it was

because of religious dogma.

I was quite freaked out at that
because, you know, why would

anybody wanna go to a gig
on Christmas Day

when there's no,
there's no transport.

John's brother, Jimmy,
asked me to do the security.

'Cause I was the face
of football in them days.

We basically crewed most
of the Arsenal to do security.

♪ Ego-maniac traitor ♪

Allow people to be entertained
on Christmas Day, you know.

Why is that against the law?

[crowd cheers]

[Jim] It can go this way
and that was it,

I walked out
and everyone burned.

'Cause I knew that
it wasn't gonna

get me anywhere being
in that band.

[Jim] Just being used,
basically.

[Johnny] I was really upset
with Jim Walker leaving

because I thought he
was an incredible talent.

In my view, we never
bested Jim Walker

and, and you lost a sense
of the band.

It was, uh, an immediate
disaster, wasn't it?

That, but still had to
get on with it.

Still had to like
progress and continue.

So then it was just kind
of me, John, and Keith.

Vicious' nude body
was found today

by his mother
in a Greenwich Village apartment

one day after he
was released from jail.

He died of what's described

as an accidental type
drug overdose.

And that's really where, where
the "Sid legend" comes from.

It was a press campaign.
[laughs]

Rather than a, a
ground swell on the streets.

And it do, just, you know,
with the death of my mate

which made me very angry.

It is when it went
into '79, it was

really, really like a pool
kind of depression.

The PiL camp was a little dark.

I mean, everyone
was doing something

and some were doing everything.

But some were going up,
some were going down.

And some were going sideways.

I remember getting on the tube,
going to rehearse with PiL,

and saw Keith there.

And I went and sat opposite him
and he was nodding off,

just like that,

this guy, molding,
so I went, "Keith."

And he just, he was gone.
And then I said to myself,

"Johnny Boy" I said,
talking to myself.

"Make the most of this."

Wobble and Keith never
seen eye to eye.

Trying to, um, make
these things work.

That was so profoundly
different in their approaches.

♪ In your eyes ♪

Keith was out, commissioned
for longer periods.

And I'd be a bit softed up.
Trying to get stuff happening.

We started working in a manner.

John, in a bit of a
slop of depression,

wanted to watch telly a lot.

'Cause a man died
who was close to him.

♪ Never say the way
Told me in your eyes ♪

[John] Hell on earth, really.
Hell on earth.

It was too confusing
and upsetting and I tried

juxtapositional these
different things in my head

and deal with them accurately.

Led to an excellent song
called "Deaf Disco".

But I already had the song
in my head for

my mama, I sang it
to her at the hospital.

This should be fought per leave
and we got back to

recording it. It was, uh...

so upsetting and my dad just,

"You can't say that.
She's dying."

And she laughed.

And found it great fun
and I think...

I think, honesty, when people
are on their deathbed,

it's the most important thing
you can deliver to them.

♪ Never really know ♪

♪ Never realize ♪

♪ Silence in your eyes ♪

♪ Silence in your eyes ♪

[John] We did actually audition
many drummers.

"Here's a new drummer."

"Okay, set up."

"We'll just leave the tape
running anyway

and see if we can work
around it."

Well, there's all manners.

Reggae drummers turned up,
disco drummers.

I spoke to Keith.
And Keith said,

"We're doing something
at the townhouse this weekend."

I thought, oh, this is my, you
know, I should learn the songs

'cause we're gonna obviously
be rehearsing.

I walked into the studio
and over in the distance,

there's a glass, plexiglass room

with the orange Rogers drum kit.

And so I was like, yeah,
"Here we go!"

"Here we go what?"

"Rolling!"

And we did Bad Baby.
Me and Wobble did Bad Baby.

And, uh, in one take.

[John] We really didn't have
the money to screw around.

We spent all our money
on sillynesses

like the album cover. [laughs]

And, had no studio time,

what we do is we'd find out
what time

certain bands would, uh, finish
their sessions. We'd go in.

When Metal Box came out,

some people loved it,
some people hated it.

To a 14, 15-year old guy,
it came in a metal tin, right?

[laughs] Which...

no other records did and, and it
was just such an exciting idea.

Metal Box like...

It, it changed my life.
That record.

It changed the way
I look at music.

For me, it's up there.
Like the great, electric

bass records, just as
a bass player

of all times.

Like Marvin Gaye What's
Going On with James Jamerson.

All the James Brown stuff.

Family Man with Bob Marley.
And Jah Wobble on Metal Box.

That sound, that style of play
changed everything for me.

And when I first listened to it,
it didn't make sense to me.

And then after about a month,

I completely
fell in love with it.

You know, and still to this day,
Second Edition,

uh, that's what's called
in the state or

Metal Box is one of my
favorite albums ever made.

It was a huge record.

It was like, that was like
the White album

in the underground or something.

It was crazy. How the whole...

people discussed that
record in a way.

[John]
It's, uh, it's about a rape

of a young girl who was
picked up and driven off

to the forest in a
Japanese car.

And the only thing she could
remember was, uh, the cassette

on the car, the cassette player
played "Poptones".

And so I, I pieced
the song together

around those initial facts.

I don't mean to be profiteering
out of pain but sometimes

you know, if you analyze
the situation,

it might in the future help stop
such things happening.

♪ Side ♪

♪ Pop tones ♪

[Martin] I used to go
and hang out at Gunter Grove

pretty much every weekend.

Uh, get my wages, get my speed.

I don't know that
I was particularly

close with John or anybody.

I got along pretty
good with Wobble.

To the point where, um,

Wobble invited me to
work on the new,

uh, demos for
the next PiL album.

♪ The lack in yourself ♪

♪ It is your nature ♪

The one thing I could do
was book a ton of studio time

whenever I wanted it for meself.

And I could also do
backing tracks for PiL.

We went down to the studio.
I told John,

"Oh my God, this stuff's
coming along really good."

And he was just like...
[laughs]

It took like a month
or two for me

to find out we weren't
working on PiL stuff.

Jah Wobble did
a record, Betrayal

where he'd cover Fats Domino's
"Blueberry Hill".

It didn't cross my
mind for a second

that anyone would think it
was to do with anyone

betraying anybody
in Public Image.

And I think I, I played
and co-wrote

four or five of the tracks
on Wobble's Betrayal album.

And then, I guess
something happened.

We're in the Manor and, um,

Wobble decided to go to town for

the weekend. It was off.
It was alright.

On a Saturday, I wanted to go
in and, uh, the master was gone.

And I searched high and low
and then it comes to pass

that he'd taken it to London
to record over his own stuff.

And then, he thought he'd sneak
it back in, Sunday night.

Well, we were there sitting,
waiting, weren't we?

Nobody complained about me
making solo records.

John and Keith were
really pissed at Wobble.

For using some PiL tapes,
I don't know what was going on.

And he's destroying the
bigger potential for this

egotistical thing on the side.

You know, sooner or later,
we would find out.

You think we're that dumb?
[scoffs]

"Oh look, isn't that
a PiL backing track?"

"Oh it sounds like it, did it?"

[laughs]

[music playing]

♪ Character
Deep in your nature ♪

♪ Take one example
Sample and hold ♪

[Thurston] When they came
to New York,

it was a real bummer for me

because I was in this band
called The Coachmen.

And we had a show
the same night as the first

Public Image show which
was at this place,

The Palladium in New York.

New York City.
My first time in the States.

Here we fucking go, right?
And it sold out.

This person crawls
on stage like...

"What's going on?" like yeah,
"John and Keith!"

"I've gone back to the hotel."

"What?"

It's filthy embarrassing,
you know?

Especially as I knew a lot
the audience has finally got it.

[faint cheering crowd]

You know, maybe, we're
just gonna crew out

a list of songs here...

[noisy background]

[music starts playing]

[Martin] Next night, we played
Great Gildersleeves.

I think I started to experience
at that time,

charisma.

He could stare down at an
audience and keep them at bay.

And John certainly could.

[upbeat music]

Joining me are Mr. John Lydon
who used to be known as

Johnny Rotten and
Mr. Keith Levene

and they are both associated now
in something which is called

Public Image Limited.

What is that? Is it a band?
Is it a public relations firm?

What is it doing? What is it?

We ain't no band.
We're a company. Simple.

Nothing to do with Rock 'N Roll.

All they talked about,
uh, you know,

umbrellas, companies,
and companies

and the standard album was
all just nonsense really.

What we needed to
do was gone play shows.

And I think the reason
it's a good idea

not to be a Rock 'N Roll band

to concentrate or
direct out energies

as a company is because...

[John] Well, look to
the future, right...

[overlapping dialogue]

[overlapping dialogue]

[John] ...days are here.

Excuse me. We were talking
while you were interrupting

-I have to do...
-[John laughs]

-...continue not for long.
-[John] Humor me.

I think it was
important for them

to sort of do
something like that.

To not wanna be a part of

anything that becomes
sort of standardized

or corporatized, you know,
by the industry,

you know, being a Rock 'N Roll
band, you know, how boring.

Why be something
that you're not?

Or why be something
that everybody else is?

The whole PiL being
a corporation, I think,

stylistically, that's where
their ideas were coming from.

From the whole acronym PiL,

the whole, um, presentation of

everything was done
in a very kind of, uh,

they were taking tips from
the corporate world

and putting a twist on it
like John always does.

Well, we're still a company.
We always have been.

Rather than a pop band
rented by a record label

and told what to do.

[music playing]

Went to America, toured America.

And then, came back

and, uh, went to the house.

I knew there was money
in cash in a shoe box.

I see it and now I'm done.

And I'm taking the box of cash
with me so I took off.

Shoe box for the cash. And went

back off to America
on a holiday.

Hard to fund a bird car.
Or make.

He's such a used car salesman.

He's so prone to doing those
what we call shifty maneuvers.

It's, uh, street-y
kind of behavior.

And it's a kind of behavior
that doesn't belong in a band.

When I left, I said,
"John, I'm gonna leave."

"Okay-fucking-bye." [scoffs]

[laughs] "See you later."

[John] Using PiL material
to record his own stuff,

that kind of, um, selfishness

is really hard to, to
understand or tolerate

by me because, um,

what was contributed
very, very well

but he took more than he gave.

[crowd cheers]

I don't see the need to lie.

I've been lied to and
I know the pain of that.

I want you to imagine you've
lost your memory completely.

Now, when you're seven
or eight years old,

it's a little bit
more destructive.

And so, the hurt of a lie
really, really

affects you for the
rest of your life.

I was in Ireland

to see my brother's band,
the 4" Be 2"s.

And, uh, off-duty policeman

behaved quite aggressive
in a pub.

I didn't know there
were policemen.

You know, until a push comes
to shove, you shove back.

It was upsetting because
we spent our week in Mountjoy.

That was a serious piece
of jail to have to be in.

And then, I immediately went
back to London and

went straight into
the studio and

started working on
The Flowers of Romance.

We only had like a few
weeks to do this

before he was gonna,
you know, be sentenced.

[John] I had a studio book.
I had me in it.

And I had no one around me

because there was no band and I
had to do the best I could.

[Nick] Keith sometimes coming in
in a great mood plays something.

It was brilliant.
And then disappear

and then come back

and he'd listen to what he'd
done earlier and hate it.

[John] We were so out of
tune with each other.

And I just got out
of Mountjoy jail.

You know, I was full
of the gifts of life, I'm free!

And I wanted to
work, work and work.

The way that most of
the songs came about

on Flowers of Romance was

that Martin Atkins would come in

relatively early when I came in.

And I got these huge drum sounds

with no particular
drum part in mine's.

♪ Down in the dark
Tell us a story ♪

♪ From the room below ♪

[Martin] I had a Mickey Mouse
watch from Disneyland.

And I, I slept with it
under my pillow.

Speeding, couldn't sleep
and I heard those

[imitates beats]

And I was like, just, I could
hear these beats in my head.

Nick was fucking awesome. He put
the watch on the floor tom-tom.

Like "What is he doing?",
"So it's gonna resonate."

Put like two mics on it
and then fed it to a harmonizer.

It was like one plus one
equals 11.

[beeping]

Once we had that, you know, good
five minutes of that on tape

then Martin went out and played
that incredible beat to it.

[drums playing]

Eventually, John would turn up
and it would either be,

"That's a bloody load of
rubbish.", you know, erase it,

or he quite liked it
and if he liked it,

he would go into a vocal.

Which was amazing because it
was literally just a drum track.

And he'd write lyrics, just,
straight out of nowhere.

["The Flowers of
Romance" playing]

♪ Now in the summer
I could be happy ♪

♪ Or in distress ♪

♪ Depending on the company ♪

♪ On the veranda ♪

♪ Talk of the future
Or reminisce ♪

♪ Behind the dialogue ♪

♪ We're in a mess ♪

♪ Whatever I intended ♪

♪ I sent you flowers You wanted chocolates instead ♪

♪ The flowers of romance ♪

♪ The flowers of romance ♪

The way that song was
built up was quite bizarre

because it started off
with just John going in

and playing this tom beat.

Then went out there
and just played the

high hat on top of it.

And then, overdubbed the cello.

And little by little,
it got built up

and then he did a vocal to it.

I was thrilled. I liked having
the free hand at that time.

♪ You need to defend
I'll take the furniture ♪

♪ Start all over again ♪

It seems, from my memory,
the whole experience

was kind of almost effortless

and that pretty much everything
that was recorded was used.

Nick knows that I, I view
really big structures

in a very different
way than, uh,

what regular musicians
would approach it like.

And then you're gonna
confine yourself in

too rigidly to format.

You're gonna end up
sounding like everybody else.

And if I were down about trying
to be like everybody else,

what would my music be?

[music plays]

There's always people.

It was John's fucking
apartment in Chelsea.

All of us and the police.

Not The Police the band.
The police, the police.

[siren blaring]

Sometimes I go over there like

Bum, bum, bum. Gunter Grove.
And the door's kicked in.

The police used to raid
usually just once.

But then it got
kind of used to it.

And then, they...
it seemed every weekend.

And surely after that, John had
really had it with this country.

And he left for New York.

And Public Image set up there.

♪ Just look around ♪

♪ I think you'll find that Everyone has the same problem ♪

[cars honking]

♪ This is not a real home ♪

There was a show at the Ritz
which was kind of a

big downtown rock theater.

We had a sold out show
with Bow Wow Wow.

Day before the events, that, uh,

we got a call
from Malcolm McLaren.

And he said, "We're not coming."

I called, uh, the publicity
department at Warner Bros.

And they were there and I said,
"We don't know each other

but our weekend just opened up
because Bow Wow Wow cancelled."

And I think they thought
that was a bit humorous

because of the
Malcolm connection.

[John] That the idea was to play
along with the record

on the turntable.

And we'd be pantomiming

and creating images
around all of this.

♪ Admiring hating
This lot are ♪

The Ritz was famous for having

the largest movie screen
on the planet.

[laughs]
That's like their big thing.

They came up with an idea.
We'll do the show.

But we never wanna come
out from behind the screen.

I didn't think we did
say it was kind of, uh,

performance art, if you will.

I think it was, uh, promoted
as PiL, a concert event.

And I made sure that I was gonna
see Public Image this time.

So we called WLIR, the
radio station in Long Island

that was playing "New Wave".

And um, I said, "I'll give you a
pair, a couple pair of tickets."

"Please announce on the air
that Bow Wow Wow cancelled."

"And it's PiL that are coming."

-Well, in moments, tickets...
-[snaps fingers]

went like hotcakes.

[Martin] And my phone
just exploded.

"Hey, can't wait to see you."

"See me what?"

"New York!"

What... I don't know
anything about it.

That felt strange.

And we thought, "Guess they
found another drummer. Okay."

Listen when I do it.

[plays drums]

From slow to fast.

I'm talking to about
six or seven drummers

about why you have to practice
and this lady comes in,

waving a check and she says,

"I need a drummer tonight. Are
you working?" she yells at me.

The place was jammed. Everybody
showed up at this, at this gig.

And see, we had a bit of kind
of rough, rough neck audience.

I walked in. Got on the stage.

And we were behind
this big movie screen.

I said, "What do you
guys want me to do?"

And Johnny Rotten says to me,

"Gimme a lot of tom-toms."

[imitates drumming sound]

[crowd cheering]

Flowers of Romance
is being played.

The lights are beautiful.

But you could feel some
kind of tension in the air.

They wanted to see the PiL live.

As soon as I started,

people started throwing
things at the screen.

They don't wanna
see silhouettes.

[crowd jeering]

All of a sudden, um,
there's a huge image of

John Lydon on the screen and
he was taunting the audience.

He was up there like huge,
like Wizard of Oz.

[inaudible talking]

[continuous crowd jeering]

[inaudible talking]

And all of a sudden, there's a
real live human being on stage.

It was Keith Levene.

And he was waving
his arms and he's saying,

"Stop throwing things
at the screen!" [laughs]

And then he had to run off

because bottles were being
thrown at his head.

Chairs started flying.
The screen that was

a very expensive screen,

kids started pulling it down.

It became dangerous. And all
the lights in the place went up.

Police came in.

And the entire place
was evacuated

and it was the end of the show.

For me, it was like, that's like
one of the greatest gigs

I ever saw. [laughs]
So good.

[John] I look back at it
and it's probably

one of the greatest gigs
I've ever done.

You sink or swim, really,
in those moments.

If you can, uh, make
good of what could be

the end of your career.

[laughter]

[music playing]

When I started working
with the band,

they had never really had anyone

that was in an
administrative role

as, as a manager per se.

And that they always dealt
with the record company

and they always dealt
with the business themselves.

I took on the role of a manager

but again, we weren't
calling me that.

As an official title, I've
never liked that anyways

since Malcolm commits him.

You know, that was
management and that's exactly

what we're never going to have
anywhere near us ever again.

[Bob] I met Keith and
we instantly bonded.

We'd put together ideas
of the game plan and then

John basically gave his
seal of approval.

I knew Martin Atkins also,

the drummer who
had left at the time.

But I kind of brought
Martin back into the fold.

I worked out a deal
with the studio

on 58th Street called Park South

where there would
be some speck time

and we would pay some money.

And we started working
and recording there.

["Mad Max" playing]

♪ Call me up after midnight
Tell me I'm wrong ♪

♪ Tell me I'm right
What do you want ♪

♪ Did you just
Need the argument ♪

[Martin] We needed a bass player
so I called Pete Jones.

"Hey Pete. It's kind of
a fucking insane thing,

you want to come on
and play bass?"

And I said, "Okay. I'll do it.
Okay. I'll do it. Alright."

And then I flew straight
to New York.

I literally walked
in to the studio

and they said, "Okay.
can you play along to this."

Probably soon after that, we
moved into the lroquois Hotel.

Which is crazy, The Clash
were there.

They were doing this series
of dates in Times Square.

I remember being in an elevator
with The Clash and was like,

We're The Clash,
we're the PiL, you know.

Just stupidity.

[reporter]John Lydon's new band

is Public Image Limited.

They're playing tonight
at the Roseland Ballroom.

The music and dress
are different

from the Sex Pistol days.

But the news that punk is dead
has not reached the fans.

They wouldn't believe it!

The press from it was great.
The band was excited, you know,

everyone was excited
and now, PiL was back.

[upbeat music]

[interviewer] Gonna do
major venues,

extensive tours, small tours?

Kind of, um...

We don't do tours.
We just do gigs occasionally.

Once every two or three
days. It's better that way.

It wasn't, it wasn't a tour.

It was a series of dates
so we'll do

mad things like we'd go
get a plane to Seattle.

So we don't fly to Seattle.
The whole band, crew hang us on.

Then we fly back again. And we
can't do that sort of traveling

and that sort of distance
and make money.

It's just financial suicide.

So there may have
been concerns like,

"Why aren't we all rich?
We're doing all these shows."

We came back to New York
and we gave,

you know, half of that
to the studio.

And now there's $3,000 left.

So yeah, you can have
$500 each or something.

The hotel bill wasn't being paid

and they threatened
to throw me out.

I said, look,
"You need to pay this bill

and I need some money."

And Keith's reply to that was,

"We're all individuals
in this band."

I'm like, "What the...
what the fuck?"

All of a sudden,
I, uh, I get this call.

Keith had gotten rid of me.

And then, uh, this whole

tension erupted within
the band after me.

It was a laugh playing live and
stepping on stage with PiL was,

was great. It was a great
honor to play with that band.

It's just became a trip, trip,
trip, trip, trip of shit.

I found Martin.
Martin was living

at the same place as John
at the time so Martin

took the call and I said,
"Martin, I'm leaving the band."

He said, "What'd you mean you're
leaving? When are you leaving?"

I said, "Tomorrow.
I've got a ticket."

"I'm flying out
tomorrow morning."

And he told John that
while I was on the phone.

And I heard just John screaming
in the background, "Bollocks!"

And that was all he said on it.
He just shout out,

"Bollocks!" and that was it.

["This Is Not A
Love Song" playing]

Yeah, that, that whole
period of, of commercials

on "This Is Not A Love Song"

get, you know, I mean that
stuff was written about

in the press in a
very, very disparaging way.

You know, it was pretty
well known that, that Keith

was a little unwell,
shall we say.

[interviewer] You just
finished your new album.

And, uh, can you tell us
a little about that?

Its title and how it differs
basically

from what you've done
in the past.

Well, that's for the
general public to...

-decide.
-Well, how were your impressions

on how it, how it differs 'cause

everything has to be
a progression, doesn't it?

I'm just happy to do it, right?

That's all.

Can you compare
it to the last ones?

-What albums?
-You can compare it to anything.

Yeah, yeah.

Would you?

Um, it's gonna be better.

In what way?

Well, it's like, um,
it's one album

more than what
we've done before.

So it's got everything we've
done from those last ones

plus us now.

But here's the thing with Keith,
he's alleged genius.

My God, many of the time, it was
murder trying to deal with what,

with what he was coming
up with in the studio

'cause he was so off the mark.

♪ Think you know the answer? ♪

♪ Think you got
All the problems? ♪

♪ Well, why not try
And solve them? ♪

♪ Instead of your
Sitting on them ♪

Not it's just too much
temptation, really, in New York.

Everybody was tempted by
so many peripheral things.

Including meself.

And there was a lot of that
cocaine floating around which

can screw up an
awful lot of things.

That was a hard one to like,
you know, walk away from.

I decided I couldn't bear that
kind of sickness every morning.

For me, it's things
that keep me awake.

That's like the things
I'm interested in.

The longer I'm awake,

the less chance of waking up
for a sleep-- from a sleep

and not knowing who I am.

I never, ever want to go through

that, that period

in the hospital of
not knowing who I was.

I knew that substance is...
way, way earlier out of my youth

and so I know not to like
fall into them issues.

But some of the more
hardcore drugs like heroine,

if that's flirting about,
that's really soul destroying.

And I've watched
that drug now reckon

destroy so many friends.

I have a real, uh, animosity
about heroin, heroin users.

Yeah, heroin users but it'd
ended up using you

to fuel their addiction

and their addiction becomes

the preeminent thing
in their life.

The only driving force, really.

♪ Getting nowhere ♪

Piles of confusion, massive
amounts of irritation, uh...

kind of, all of this, I think

ended up feeling like headless
chickens throughout all of it.

[faint crowd cheers]

We were offered
15 shows in Japan.

Um, for 100 or 150
thousand dollars.

It's a lot of fucking money.

Paul McCartney goes
to Japan with Wings.

With a kilo of weed.

And he's arrested.

Subsequently, every performance

contract for a touring
band in Japan

has what's called the "Paul
McCartney clause" inserted.

Which means if anybody's
found with drugs,

not only do you not
get paid for your tour,

you're liable for what
the promoter thinks

you might have made.

So of course, we start looking
down the barrel of the gun

of taking Keith into
that situation.

We asked to have a meeting.

Keith showed up
with his attorney.

What's this, the fucking Eagles?

He made the sensible
decision. Ba-bye.

Don't care how important
a member is,

they're not that important.

You can't be doing this
for utterly selfish reasons.

We're supposed to be
in this together.

Ultimately, it really
doesn't matter.

Listen to some of that playing.

For God's sake, you know?

Just listen to that,
nothing else.

Not anything is Wobble's.

That is talent.

And no one can ever
take that away from him

except himself.

Keith has said...

Commercial Zone, it's his
version of the album.

It isn't. It was our version
of an earlier album.

There were songs on there
that he didn't know

existed
until he stole the tapes.

[music plays]

Keith eventually

organized a release
of Commercial Zone.

Got it pressed up,
had it released

in America outside
of the Virgin control.

Yet again, one more time,

somebody being greedy
and selfish with PiL stuff.

I thought that John was
very pleased about that.

But by this time,
they've come off

and re-recorded a lot
of those songs

for This Is What You Want...
This Is What You Get album.

So yeah, the Commercial Zone
version of some of the songs

are after the This Is What
You Want version

of the songs which are
inferior of course. Some are.

♪ This is what you get
This is what you want ♪

We'd find ourselves,
just me and John,

with this commitment for Japan.

[music starts playing]

♪ This is what you want ♪

♪ This is what you get ♪

And to quickly find, uh, people

'cause they're already
committed to the tour.

I went to give Louis Bernardi,

uh, the news that he got
the job on bass

to a holiday inn
in Passaic, New Jersey.

It's like a drug deal gone
wrong, kind of weird thing.

And I walked in

and there's a band on stage
playing "Rock The Casbah"

and there's Louis playing bass
with a fucking red beret.

"Rock the Casbah..." like fuck,

what have we done?

Really good musicians didn't get
what we were doing at all.

At all, at all, at all.

There was no longer
that fucking attitude.

There's no longer
the weight to it.

♪ Want ♪

Them like a covers band.

Let's see
if they could cover PiL.

[crowd cheers]

♪ Ego-maniac traitor ♪

♪ You never did understand ♪

I don't think anybody would
pass it, hold on a minute.

This isn't the gravitas
of early PiL.

It was Johnny Rotten on stage.

♪ Low life ♪

♪ Ma! ♪

♪ Bourgeois Anarchist ♪

♪ I read you despise us ♪

♪ Always hurt the one you love ♪

♪ Lie to be distant ♪

[crowd cheers]

[interviewer] John, uh,
you've been described

variously as an actor,

a fraud, a genius, an idiot.

Then the big hype
of Rock 'N Roll.

-[John] Hmm.
-Which do you think you are?

All of the above
and more besides.

Which one do you
like being most?

Uh, genius, I think is quite
nice. Yeah. I'll go for that.

Did it apply for
your last record?

I think so.
It's rather wonderful.

Making a lot of bucks?

No, unfortunately, it
hasn't been going at the, uh,

commercial success
that it deserves

but I have patience.

Emotionally, that, that was
such a trying period.

'Cause I was going
through incredible

negativity from the media.

They just wanted to
bury me basically.

Then I had to really, really
fight for my survival here.

Now, but listen, you can't
let a palm tree fool you.

Don't make it about a place,
I mean, it is a dungeon.

Just like everywhere else.

[interviewer] Then why
are you here in LA?

You could be anywhere.

It's convenient.

I'm gonna start somewhere.
It can't be London.

It can't start in the rain.

♪ Baby, pretty, pretty baby
Pretty baby, pretty, pretty ♪

There literally was an ad.
It just said,

"Public Image looking for..."

"guitar player, keyboard player"
and I think, "bass player."

"Call this number."

There's a bunch
of bass players waiting

and Martin Atkins was up
on stage playing.

and bass players went up
and played

then I went up
and played with him

and we, we hit it pretty good.

I remember just jamming
for like 20 minutes.

Well, that's it. Everybody
can go home. We're done.

The next day, they asked me
if I wanted to join the band.

And, obviously, and I thought,

fuck, I gotta leave
the Chili Peppers

and I was so scared,
I didn't know what to do.

I remember that night,
Hillel came over.

Then I stayed up
with him all night.

Talking about it like,
"What do I do? What do I do?"

He was like, you know,

"If you join PiL, it will
never be your band."

"Like it will never
be your thing."

So I called them that morning.

You fucking asshole. What are
we supposed to do now?

You know. Enjoy this
Rolls-Royce. Here's a Toyota.

Pretty much immediately,
we did a US tour.

♪ This is not a love song
This is not a love song ♪

♪ This is not a love song
This is not a love song ♪

♪ This is not a love song ♪

♪ This is not a love song ♪

This is like nuts. I'm living.
I was just out of high school

so I was playing
in my favorite band.

♪ This is not a love song
This is not a love song ♪

"This Is Not A Love Song"
is a fucking

top three hit around the world.

It's one of my least favorite
songs. I co-wrote it.

It's the biggest fucking hit.

♪ I'm going over
To the other side ♪

♪ I'm happy to have
Not to have not ♪

♪ Big business is very wise ♪

♪ I'm inside free enterprise ♪

♪ This is not a love song
This is not a love song ♪

♪ This is not a love song ♪

So John and I showing the house,
Nora's, the house with us.

And we're just
not getting along.

Martin Atkins and me
drove each other mad.

You know, because we're living
in the same house and, uh,

we kind of ended up
getting on each other's nerves

and that was unfortunate.

I mean it's great to work
with bands but you can't,

you can't share
the same living environment.

So I got a place at Pasadena.
Little, shitty apartment.

Got myself a car and tried
to make this thing happen.

And I got, I got quite sick.

Which didn't make sense to me.

Here's my list.
Top three single, check.

Swimming pool, check.
Palm trees, check.

And...

it didn't occur to me
I was just unhappy.

♪ Think you know the answer? ♪

I said to John, "Look, I know
there's...

Japan tour's coming
up with Australia."

"I don't wanna let you down but
I just wanted to let you know...

I'm gonna be leaving
at the end of it."

And that was a
huge fucking mistake.

Not leaving. But telling him.

Whereas our relationship
was a little bit difficult

up to that point.

It fucking completely
destroyed it.

[John] Martin left
after the, uh,

the Japanese tour.

We decided, like,
not to be like

bothered to go straight
back to, uh, LA.

And so, uh, we rented
a house right

on the North Shore
and stayed there.

It was great for testing
but no more Martin.

And he missed out on that

he should've been in on that.

That would've been
the proper bonding again.

And then, he'd had enough.

["Solitaire" playing]

♪ Can't pull out my heart ♪

♪ Solitaire ♪

[interviewer] How did
getting married affect

your relationship
with your wife?

Well, it means we see more
of each other obviously.

We're very happy. We've been
together for some ten years now.

We'll never separate.

I'm not, I wasn't making
commitment forever.

I'm a loyalist.

That's beautiful.

Lover.

Such an original person, say.

There's, there's a hook for me

with, um, my friends

and the things I wanna work with

and my affiliations and
associations is,

um... [sighs] When I come
across something

so incredibly original,

I see it. I'm in love with that.

And there's not too much of that
going on in the world.

♪ Speak about destruction ♪

♪ This is the world destruction Your life ain't nothing ♪

♪ The human race is
Becoming a disgrace ♪

The idea of working with Elektra
was great. Loved it, right.

And so Laswell was
gonna be the check

because I've worked with Laswell
before doing Time Zone

with Afrika Bambaataa. I was so
looking forward to this project.

Brought the young band
into New York.

They panicked in the studio.

It just seemed that they
were kind of naive

and just getting started.

That wasn't the case. We wanted
to do something kind of big.

Understand this is the 80s.

So in the 80s,
producers made records.

Bands were lucky to be on them.

♪ Bow wow ♪

♪ Myself when I say ♪

[John] God bless him,
I don't hold it against him.

And I loved them fellas forever.

'Cause, you know, they were part
of the songwriting

original process.

But they just couldn't,

they couldn't reach
the final chapter.

[Laswell] So I proceeded to fire
the band and hire musicians.

But where are we to find
replacements so that was great

because I read the list,
it was damn well endless

in a complete shock.

On a such a, on a serious level.

[drums beating]

Ginger Baker's a nut up. He then
trotted into the studio like,

um, semi out of
his complete mind.

Fantastic person, I can say.
I managed to like, uh,

somehow, accidentally,
hook-up and connect with.

The wild car was Steve Vai.

Who would've thought
you'd bring a metal guitarist...

He was used to his way of pining
and that's not what we wanted.

We wanted him to like, you know,
go rhythmic with it.

You know, play less.
And it would mean more.

[John] Alright, let's get
on with it then.

[Vivien] On this
last record, um...

How involved were in
picking all the musicians

and then the production
and the whole thing?

Because that wasn't done
like a group, group.

Well, very involved.
I mean I've written

almost all of the songs
before I went into the studio.

So I knew exactly
what I wanted. Uh...

so I just set about getting
the musicians

that would do the job best.

The most amusing
part about it was

Tony Williams did
half the record

and I did half the record.

And it was released without
citing who was playing on what.

And Tony and I laughed about it

because every track Tony
was on, they thought it was me.

And every track I was on,
they thought it was Tony.

[laughs]

[music playing]

It wasn't like I was trying
to sell you an album

with a load of pony-ass,
like, famous people.

'Cause everybody
who became involved

I told them way in advance.

There would be no credits
on this record at all.

Everyone happy.

More than happy, oddly enough,

to work with me
which was a real shock.

'Cause up to that point,

I hadn't considered that people
actually really respected me

inside the music world itself.

♪ Now
What does this mean? ♪

♪ Home sweet home ♪

♪ Home sweet home ♪

[interviewer] When you
were younger, you did say

that you were very anti-love
in relationships

and you seem to have
settled into one now.

Is that true?
Have you settled down?

Well, that was the voice
of inexperienced.

I have progressed to
higher things, yes.

And this is a high thing,
this relationship?

I think so, yes. I think
it's very important

to be able to say I was wrong.

Would you like to have children
now that you're in this kind of

-stable relationship?
-[John] No, no.

Why? Why not?

I just have to dedicate my
life completely to them

and I can't afford to do that.

I'm far too irresponsible.

[host] And Public Image Limited
here

in the Top of the Pops Studio.

this week's number 11
with "Rise".

-[crowd cheers]
-["Rise" playing]

♪ Could be wrong ♪

♪ I could be right ♪

"Rise" was what kicked
everything off again for PiL.

The success of that song
was what, you know,

Virgin had wanted, at that time,
I remember, a hit record.

And that's moved
everything out again.

♪ They put a hot wire
To my head ♪

♪ 'Cause of the things
I did and said ♪

♪ They made these
Feelings go away ♪

♪ A model citizen in every way ♪

♪ May the road rise with you ♪

♪ May the road rise with you ♪

The track "Rise",
the bass line in the beat

is based on the
South African music.

Mixes very well
with the Irish thing.

And John was very conscious
of reference points.

He brought a lot of
written notes and ideas.

"Rise" is about South African

and northern Irish
interrogation techniques.

[interviewer] Such as?

Well, electric torture
for starters.

-Oh, yeah?
-"They put a hot wire

to my head."

"'Cause of the things
I did and said."

Is it intended
as a political song, is it?

Does anything game when you're
writing political songs?

Is there something
particular? Are you--

It's not necessarily
political at all.

It's just dealing with that
specific subject of torture.

All kinds of torture don't
really achieve anything.

Violence doesn't
achieve anything.

Uh, these governments,
they've got to learn this.

Cannot keep a population down.

♪ Anger is an energy ♪

♪ Anger is an energy ♪

♪ Anger is an energy ♪

♪ Anger is an energy
Anger is an energy ♪

Around that time, John was

saying that he wanted to
come back to the UK.

And he wanted to put
a new band together.

He needed a new manager.

And I said, "I'll put
a band together for you."

"Let's get it on the road
and do some touring."

Went out to pub,
drank some beer.

Decided we'd be a band. Usual.

I said, "Yes, sure.
I'd love to play the drums."

No, I didn't nothing.

♪ Black rubber bag
It's like a rubber bag ♪

♪ Black rubber bag
It's like a rubber bag ♪

♪ Black rubber bag ♪

["Bags" playing]

We played with John every
night. That was a challenge.

It was an enjoyable
challenge. It's what...

Just like in a jazz band,
there's a soloist

and you're following him
as an accompanying musician

and listening for the changes.

You know, we're playing the song
that we play every night, dude.

The verse is ending,
we'll come into the bridge.

One, two, three, four...

[gasps]

We don't know if
John's gonna be there.

♪ Close to the edge ♪

[inaudible]

Allan is absolutely right.
You gotta be...

listening to what John's doing.
You know, staying aware.

[interviewer] So, um...

[clears throat]

Right here.

[laughter]

[spits]

Here's what I prepared earlier.

[laughter]

I can't help it.
All, all my life,

I've got these
constant problems.

It's meningitis again. Um...

Things will form in the back
of my throat like lumps

and it's why I always have
this spittoon.

'Cause I can feel it in here...
[clears throat]

You can't get the
notes out and you

gotta clear your throat somehow.

[John] What a load of
fucking wankers.

And as for you.

Stop throwing money,
you silly old cunts.

That PiL tour was full of
disgruntled Sex Pistols fans.

You know, so we had to
battle through the walls of gob.

[John] This is a little bit
out of fucking order.

Now, we don't mind security.

But we don't like bully-boys
being able to shit.

-That I know.
-[crowd jeers]

And you could start
spitting at me too.

The wall of spit

that John was subjected to
for the first two songs.

He kept asking them
to stop spitting.

[John] First of all, to perform
by you, spitting fans...

Keep spitting. Don't do it.

Or I'm coming down. Good night!

[crowd reacts]

And he walked off the stage.

And I said, "John, you
gotta go back on stage."

And I'm reluctant and he said,
"Keith, look at me."

And he was covered in spit.

And the bouncers were saying,

"You gotta get back
on the stage, man."

"You're gonna have a
riot here in a moment."

[John] Now, listen.
And listen good.

'Cause it doesn't matter
like shit to me.

If you keep spitting, I will
go home. I don't need this crap

from an imitator punk like you,
crack show, for instance.

It can be terrible how many
spiteful fucks there are

out there in the world
to do this kind of thing.

There were some nights...

that got scary leading up
to McGeoch since then.

[John Lydon] The thing about
John, for instance, is well...

He's gonna hate this. Uh...

He understood the
Public Image guitar sound.

And he took it a
couple of stages further

which is why I had
to work with him.

He's rather brilliant.

Well, I've been looking at
those Public Image guitar

lines for years.

So I thought it was
time to finally, uh...

sealed

and signed the document.

I've gone home.

So of course, I get back to my
office, not knowing

the first thing that happens,

I get fan call in the morning
from the tour manager.

The guys were drunk and
somebody instigated an

egg gun, somebody, and
a kid threw this pile and

unfortunately hit McGeoch...

[smacks forehead]
here.

Had forty stitches in his face.

Big blood, big horror.

I just said, "Let go. We've
got to rethink this." You know?

Band stopped playing
for four, five months.

And then, when it
came back, it was...

the music changed.

John McGeoch changed
by that and then

it was, um, less improvised.

Everything changed
in his life and

his taste in music
and everything, it was...

quite interesting.

[interviewer] Why do
you think that was?

I don't know. You know,
I'm not a psychologist.

It was a lot of
plastic surgeries.

Six dancing men.

[fan] John!

Got a whole lot there?

John sat us down and he said,

"Okay, listen.
This is the deal."

"I'm liking what's happening,

I wanna share this
with everybody.

"Who's in?"

John was great like that.
I mean, John, he's very--

you know, even if he wrote
all of the lyrics, which he did.

Publishing spirit was in
between the five of them.

Then we set forth
into the studio.

And then, the journey
was off and running.

[interviewer] Now that
you moved into

this group PiL, how did you...

[John] Well, I always
work in groups.

I don't like doing
things on my own.

I like working with people but

this is the best yet, I mean,

I've never felt part of the band
and it includes the Sex Pistols.

It's never been as good as this.

["Seattle" playing]

♪ Don't like the look
Of this old town ♪

Happy? and a couple
of those albums,

they played them better than
they recorded them, you know.

The songs' structures were
too tight and regulated.

And the expectation was
put upon John to

put himself into
those arrangements.

He's not well served by that
kind of compositional approach.

♪ Nothing ever happened
And everything ♪

♪ Remained the same again
What in the world ♪

♪ What in the world ♪

♪ What in the world ♪

♪ Get up, get up, get out
Get out, get out of my world ♪

-[John] Louis.
-[Louis] John.

Do you remember
all them years ago?

I'd bank on you
learning all this stuff.

Fucking idi--
you did two, didn't you?

Which stuff?

Flowers of Romance with McGeoch.

What a murderous, fucking
ensemble of disaster.

That could be night after night.

That's an interesting way of
putting it because you're right.

I have to say it was very hard
playing with McGeoch because

he was always
top organ, he was...

He, he wouldn't listen
to anyone, you know.

He's a great player,
lovely man but

I just always end up going
"Just go and play keyboard."

["Rise" playing]

♪ May the road rise with you ♪

♪ May the road rise with you ♪

♪ May the road rise with you ♪

♪ May the road rise with you ♪

It just sort of kept going.

And with John was happy,
you know,

anyone liked being
with us, you know.

'Cause he'd been, had quite
an unstable lineup.

We are all equal.
We all contribute equally.

And this is the permanent
lineup of Public Image now.

And will be for a long time.

[ringing sound]

Lu...

He had a condition called

tinnitus? Tinnitus.
Sometimes it's what he called.

Guitar EMS turned up
so extremely loud.

It recalls this ringing
in your ears.

[interviewer] What did you
feel like? What was it like?

Well, suicidal tendencies.

I wanted to die.

And much as he didn't mean
or want to leave, he had to.

You know, he's like
gotten a death sentence,

you know, it was very sad.

[clears throat]

And he was gone.

[strums guitar]

[music plays]

When you're young, you want more
and more volume and everything

because it makes you
feel bigger and better

about what it is you're doing.

You're not actually listening
to what you're doing at all.

Then, it has that, uh, that
period where you begin to like

what it is you're doing a lot.

And you like getting it right.

And these things
are too damn loud.

By that time, man, we were
like solid, we were tight.

And we're just having so much
fun and it was getting on good

and it was devastating, man.

♪ You, you're just a
Really bad person ♪

♪ Who won't, you won't
Listen to anyone ♪

♪ No, not you
With those half moon eyelids ♪

♪ Just babbling on ♪

♪ Your useless defenses ♪

"Disappointed", um...

that's a song John wrote
about all of the

people who have fallen
by the wayside.

The single is called
"Disappointed"

which is again about

disappointed about you people,
that's what friends are for.

No, it's about friends
letting you down.

That's an emotion all of us
have experience,

at one time or another.

It's not anti-friendship.

It's just telling you
that this will happen.

And choose your friends
just a little more carefully.

Sound advice, I think.

Is this a general lyric
or is this

about specific friends that--

It's, it's general but

it could apply to
several of my ex-managers.

I couldn't really remember
the exact day

when we stopped
working together.

But it was because
we had a huge brawl, you know.

The problems that we had,
you know, working relationship

was because we
were friends as well.

It made it difficult

to separate the friendship
from the work.

Um, that got to a
sort of breaking point.

♪ Disappointed a few people ♪

♪ When friendship reared
Its ugly head ♪

♪ Disappointed a few people ♪

♪ Well, isn't that
What friends are for? ♪

♪ What friends are for?
What friends are for? ♪

♪ What friends are for?
What friends are for? ♪

♪ What friends are for? ♪

[John] Many of my friends
are convinced that it's about

them personally
and it really isn't.

But the refrain in it that
they don't grasp and they should

'cause it's a huge compliment
is, uh, what friends are for.

That's, that the bottom line.
That you've up with the, uh,

you know, the mistakes and
errors of friends because

you accept them
for what they are.

[engines roaring]

So we didn't have
any big falling yet.

I think he was very
pissed off when I left.

Um, which is understandable.

Really the reason that I
stopped playing there was I

was not in very
good shape, I mean,

I wasn't in good shape.
We've been on tour all the time.

I did-- was doing
a lot of drugs.

You know, basically
the routine of album tour

is six months of... optimism.

Didn't really worked out
so well for me.

And with the drinking and drugs
and nightlife. It just...

got into a tailspin for me.

It was either my
health, well-being

Or I was gonna die.
I mean, I was gonna just...

implode? Fall apart?

And I had to bail.

I've take set of people
come and people go

and it really breaks my heart.

You know, and I obligate
myself to the human beings.

I don't want that
to stop anytime soon.

You gotta accept that it does.

["Cruel" playing]

♪ Body and soul ♪

♪ An animal ♪

♪ As a sword ♪

♪ Swing double edged ♪

♪ Dig deep down ♪

♪ That monthly frown ♪

♪ You have the tools
To make men fools ♪

Aah.

I hope you know
how fucking happy I am

when the missus
is back in the house.

It's very important.

[interviewer] Since we're here
and Nora's here, maybe, uh...

No, she won't. It ain't
possible. You know it.

-[interviewer laughs]
-Nope.

My baby's ran off and
closed the door.

-Yeah?
-Nope, she's not gonna have it.

[interviewer laughs]

See, that's private.
And that's how we are.

It's not public domain. Say, do
whatever you want about me

but you're never gonna
get the opportunity

to do about that,
the people that,

that don't deserve that torture.

I'll vow us through it.

I loved this very, very much.

The dragon in the corner.
This is done by, um,

I think it was Pablo.
One of the twins. Ariane's kids.

When they were young
and they came to live with us.

Ariane, the lead singer of
The Slits, is, uh,

my wife's daughter.

Their mother, she just couldn't
cope with them anymore.

And you know,
with her musical career.

And they had a major,
major brawl.

I said, "Well, let
them live with us."

"We'll-- we'll take
care of them."

Then, so, you know,
in, in what you can conceive as

two decades of not working.
[laughs]

Johnny had to become daddy.
[laughs]

It was tough, man.

It was tough because
you're taking on

two 14-year olds, you know.

Had very serious opinions of,
of the problems they had to

endure up to that point
with their own mother.

♪ Domestic bliss ♪

Give it a little time to,
to settle it down into,

into a proper family unit.

Very, very difficult but, uh, I
learned so much about meself

because I, I found that bit that
was missing in me for so long.

That I loved the company of kids

when they're young,
I just really do.

Terrific. And in a weird way,
family-owned youth again.

[music playing]

If you look at all
those video clips of

them on television
at the time, you know,

and just like how
antagonistic it is, you know.

Especially on the
Tom Snyder show,

The Tomorrow Show in New York.

That was like, people
talked about that forever.

How they just kind of like, um,

completely took the piss from
this guy, you know, just like

you know, we're so combative

to the point where
he has to be late.

[laughs]

He was known then
as Johnny Rotten,

the head singer
and founder of the Sex Pistols.

He continued creating a vent
of music in the 1980s

with his band
Public Image Limited.

And after nearly 17 years
since first we met,

we're back together again
tonight for the second time.

John, welcome and thank you
for joining us here at CBS.

I don't what happened
17 years ago tonight.

Yes, you do. You just showed it.

[laughter]

I mean, I don't know where
I was or you were then

but if I did something to
offend you, I apologize for it.

No, it's all right.
I mean, it's just

entertainment,
isn't it, you know? TV.

Exact-- right.
It's only television.

I sometimes forget that.

John did some, um, some work
with some TV films and programs.

[animals howling]

They say a gorilla was here.
A gorilla.

I think you'll like it, Lydon.

He goes, I got nothing to say
to gorillas,

Well, we went out with gorillas

we had the best time alive.

John Lydon, punk superstar,

national icon and mad-key
natural historian.

With best mate, John Rumbo,
he's embarked on a

once in a lifetime journey
into the heart of East Africa.

The ultimate aim of
meeting his oldest relatives.

The gorillas who date
back to a time

when dinosaurs ruled the Earth.

[chanting in African language]

[chanting in African language]

♪ This is pil
Pil ♪

We were always mates
for years, years and years.

You know, I'd work and hang
out with him every day.

He do his thing, I do my thing.

And, um, we just, eventually

just teamed up
properly, you know.

It's hard sometimes
because we're mates

so it's hard
whenever, we're not--

we never, ever, ever
had an argument

before I started
working with John.

Ever.

We don't have any arguments.

I want to get the
best out of John.

I didn't wanna do
any more Pistol stuff.

And John went,
"Well, we could start PiL."

And I was humming in high.

'Cause I thought it was almost
an insurmountable barrier.

'Cause of a serious
financial debt.

It was always eaten away.
I had to get this back together

but I just didn't know how.

Do I buy country life butter
because it's British?

[upbeat music]

Bye, bye country life because

I yearn for the
British countryside.

[honks car]

Or because its made only
from British milk?

[cows moo]

It's not about Great Britain,
it's about great butter.

Yeah, a butter company
approaches and, you know,

to be the, the spokesperson
or figurehead for butter?

[laughs]

And naturally, instinctively,
I said no but

they said I'm basically
a free hand.

The money wasn't complete genius

that came out of it,
let me tell you.

They got me on the cheap. But it

definitely helped us set up PiL.

[music playing]

When I rang up Bruce,
we haven't spoke in,

oh, 18 years,
something like that.

I'm like, "Hello." He goes,

"Hello, John."

I certainly wasn't expecting it.

Anybody said was, "If we can get
this off the ground," you know,

"would-- will you play?"
It's kind of like that.

Louis was just hilariously
difficult to talk to.

"Are you sure? You're putting
your own money in it, John."

"Don't put your own
money into it."

I'm like,
"You can't be serious."

'Cause I remember John before

and he was, I guess, pretty
different than he is now.

I think the difference is Rambo.

As a manager, he's got
John into a position

where John can feel
that he can do

this, you know, in
a particular way.

I'll tell you, when I rang
Wobble and spoke to him,

I didn't recognize
his voice at all.

John called me. I was
getting me feet done.

It's already nice summer's
day, rather cold.

I like the old reflexology.
Yeah, they talked about

doing, you know,
Would you come with us?

I said, "Well, look... My people
are sort of your people."

You know, so...

For me, it wasn't the venue

we used to play either. It
wasn't the way to do it either.

So aesthetically, financially,
could go over the first hurdle.

And then it was really
the bass player and Scott.

It was great.

[music playing]

And I looked to his website
and I thought, "Just genius."

He's perfect PiL.

He wrote everyone from Stevie
Winwood to the Spice Girls.

That sense of openness
is completely

what I'm always looking
for in a human being.

Major thing he was trying to
make us all fit as one thing.

Because he got the old stuff

and all the stuff through
the 80s and 90s,

he's trying to
make it fit as art.

So like it's, it's coming from
the same place

where we played it live.

[music plays]

They did first rehearsals,

absolutely guaranteed
to be the--

These lads, my gosh.

I mean, I put them in
a room, I arrive slightly late

the first day of rehearsal.

And they were already banging
way out of "Albatross".

You know, not the
most easiest of, of,

of free form things
to be approaching

but gosh, I walked straight
into the room,

straight on to the mic,
and bang, that was it.

♪ If I wanted to ♪

'Cause it gets hard. Some
of the players like "Albatross".

There are no parts.
There's just this

scene that, scene this,
scene just-- and they,

and you can't say when
anything will follow anything.

And when John's singing,
I have to sort of,

sometimes I have
to preempt things,

sometimes I have
to be after him.

I've got no idea
every time I play.

And I'd never want to play
it the same way twice

because it would kill him.

♪ You are and always will be ♪

♪ Unbearable ♪

♪ You ran away ♪

♪ You ran away ♪

♪ You ran away ♪

♪ You ran away ♪

[John] I have many, many
managers over the years.

You constantly tryna

get some kind of structure in
my life that would work and,

and I find the only way that
really works best for me

is Rambo because he's,

he's um, he's like me

and he's not really dependable.

I just want a little man.

It isn't, Dave. It's not
quite finished yet.

Is this my standing position?

Indeed.

Am I allowed to go
outside or is that--

[John] I mean now, there's some
security presence in PiL, it is,

it's Rambo standing on one side.

So I'm there.
I'm also feeling, you know,

I don't wanna get too focused on

the music, I'm
watching the crowd.

I could spot someone that
might try to get on the stage.

If they get on stage,
sometimes they're okay.

Some are like,
I'm gonna fight you.

♪ Better days ♪

♪ Better days will never be ♪

♪ Better days will never be ♪

♪ Better days will never be ♪

[John] Let's go
around once more.

You fucking idiots.

[crowd cheers]

Yow!

With also like to watch
out as well when security,

security beating ourselves
to the crowd.

I'll let John know and I'll
let John say something.

You know, we don't
hold any punches,

we really love our crowd.

They come to support us so

you know, we really want them to

be part of it and
not be bullied.

[faint music]

There you go. Last night.
[sighs]

Before we start all over again.

I think I'm gonna miss it,
I'm gonna miss it like mad

and the gaps are gonna
drive me nuts.

'Cause I've got, I've got to
really, really like doing this.

First time in 30 years.
It's like, it's not painful.

-It's fucking enjoyable.
-[laughter]

[exhales]

-First count.
-First count, come on.

-[John blowing nose]
-[crowd cheering]

Yeah, right. He's only
showing off for the camera.

[crowd cheering]

[John] This is PiL!

[crowd cheers]

-[John] Hello!
-[crowd] Hello!

Are we ready, boys?

["Public Image" playing]

♪ Hello! Hello! ♪

♪ Hello, hello, hello! ♪

♪ You never listened
To a word that I said ♪

♪ You only seen me from
The clothes that I wear ♪

♪ Or did the interest
Go so much deeper ♪

♪ It must have been to
The color of my hair ♪

♪ Public image ♪

♪ Oh what you wanted
Was never made clear ♪

♪ Behind the image was
Ignorance and fear ♪

♪ You hide behind
This public machine ♪

♪ You still follow
Same old scheme ♪

♪ Public image ♪

I have to be this centrifugal
force or this will fall apart.

It needs direction like I
suppose everything in life.

Gosh, I think
I'm advocating monarchy.

[laughs]

♪ Public image ♪

Hello!

[crowd cheers]

["Shoom" playing]

♪ Fuck you ♪

♪ Fuck off ♪

♪ Fuck sex ♪

♪ Ya bollocks ♪

[door closes]

[laughter]

[inaudible]

[laughter]

[Allan] That was wow. I haven't
seen you in so long.

[John] Well, that must
be fucked up, you know...

Can't make it any
worse than this.

[filmmaker] And you were
friends from youth?

-Yes.
-This is great.

About 12. 11, 12.

Well, that's the best
of friends like any else.

Yeah, it is.

-[inaudible]
-I know.

-But it's true.
-[laughter]

[indistinct chatter]

[John]... we'll not be enemies,
laying out all of them...

[chanting]

[host] Ladies and gentlemen,
BMI's 2013 Icon,

-Mr. John Lydon!
-[applause]

♪ Is another ♪

- ♪ Fuck off ♪
-[crowd] Fuck off!

- ♪ Fuck off ♪
-[crowd] Fuck off!

♪ Fuck off ♪

["The One" playing]

♪ Ah wooo ♪

♪ Ah wooo ♪

♪ Maybe you were there ♪

♪ Or maybe you can
Struck with me ♪

♪ Somebody there ♪

♪ Or maybe they are with me ♪

♪ And in the embers veil ♪

♪ Get up in the fire
So when the boat comes in ♪

♪ You're not be the one
So when the boat comes down ♪

♪ You're not be a clown ♪

♪ Ah wooo ♪

♪ Yeah you got that one ♪

♪ You're not a clown ♪

♪ You're not the one ♪

♪ Wondering ♪

♪ Where you can put that sun ♪

♪ Under the moon ♪

♪ Or maybe I'll be home ♪

♪ Like a modern man ♪

♪ With a full feather plan ♪

♪ Maybe you're the one ♪

♪ Maybe you're the one ♪

♪ Maybe you're the one ♪

♪ Ah wooo ♪

♪ Ah wooo ♪

♪ Ooh ♪

♪ One ♪

[music fades out]