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1
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(footsteps)
2
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(copying)
3
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(printing)
4
00:00:31,416 --> 00:00:32,667
(tapping paper)
5
00:00:32,750 --> 00:00:34,249
(keys jingling)
6
00:00:37,958 --> 00:00:39,416
Okay.
7
00:00:39,500 --> 00:00:41,999
Here are the two copies, Mom.
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-Dorothy Lewis: Okay.
And again, by the way...
-I'm ready.
9
00:00:44,458 --> 00:00:46,041
feel free to say yuck.
10
00:00:46,124 --> 00:00:48,667
But, you know,
feel free to say, "Mom,
11
00:00:48,750 --> 00:00:51,792
don't say that," okay? Okay.
12
00:00:51,875 --> 00:00:54,625
That Joseph Paul Franklin
was crazy,
13
00:00:54,708 --> 00:00:56,750
there could be
little doubt.
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00:00:56,833 --> 00:00:59,458
"The New York Times"
called me "The Slayer."
15
00:00:59,541 --> 00:01:02,083
I like the word, you know,
the term "multiple slayer"
16
00:01:02,166 --> 00:01:04,041
better than
"serial killer" anyway.
17
00:01:04,124 --> 00:01:05,291
You know what I'm saying?
18
00:01:05,375 --> 00:01:07,667
-Dorothy: Got it? Okay.
-Eric Lewis: Mm-hmm.
19
00:01:07,750 --> 00:01:09,792
Dorothy:
No, not 'cause
he hated Jews.
20
00:01:09,875 --> 00:01:13,166
Lots of ostensibly
sane people hate Jews.
21
00:01:13,249 --> 00:01:15,541
Bigotry and insanity
are different.
22
00:01:15,625 --> 00:01:17,750
-(projector clicking)
-At least my mother
thought so.
23
00:01:17,833 --> 00:01:20,541
-Wait, can you hold on
one sec? (muttering)
-Yeah, do you see that?
24
00:01:20,625 --> 00:01:23,708
-Then it goes from
there to my mother...
-My mother seemed to know
25
00:01:23,792 --> 00:01:27,833
the names of every
anti-Semite alive and dead.
26
00:01:27,917 --> 00:01:30,249
Henry Ford, Richard Wagner,
27
00:01:30,333 --> 00:01:33,291
Joe Kennedy,
even Walt Disney.
28
00:01:33,375 --> 00:01:36,500
And then I have in quotes,
"Not Walt Disney, Mom!"
29
00:01:36,583 --> 00:01:38,458
-Unquote, okay?
Close quote.
-Eric: Mm-hmm.
30
00:01:38,541 --> 00:01:40,999
Dorothy:
"Yes, Walt Disney,"
she declared.
31
00:01:41,083 --> 00:01:44,375
Still, she took me
to see "Bambi"
and I cried and cried.
32
00:01:44,458 --> 00:01:47,541
Now, it goes up to the upper
left-hand corner, okay?
33
00:01:47,625 --> 00:01:49,792
Dot-dot, got it? (laughs)
34
00:01:49,875 --> 00:01:52,208
The memories that
come back to me
35
00:01:52,291 --> 00:01:54,958
when I'm, you know,
when I'm writing.
36
00:01:55,041 --> 00:01:57,500
They're-- they have nothing
to do with the case,
37
00:01:57,583 --> 00:01:59,416
but it's sort of fun. Okay,
38
00:01:59,500 --> 00:02:02,208
now we're going back to,
"As I write this,
39
00:02:02,291 --> 00:02:06,124
I ask myself why I agreed
to examine Mr. Franklin."
40
00:02:06,208 --> 00:02:08,625
How are you supposed to act
if you've killed people?
41
00:02:08,708 --> 00:02:11,291
You know?
You're supposed to have blood
dripping from your mouth
42
00:02:11,375 --> 00:02:13,041
and all that? Fangs?
43
00:02:13,124 --> 00:02:16,750
Dorothy:
How could I be certain that
I would not be prejudiced?
44
00:02:16,833 --> 00:02:20,541
Looking back in time,
I think examining
Mr. Franklin
45
00:02:20,625 --> 00:02:24,625
was as close as
I would ever come
to examining Hitler.
46
00:02:24,708 --> 00:02:26,792
Hitler has always
been a mystery.
47
00:02:26,875 --> 00:02:29,792
A man responsible for
the deaths of so many,
48
00:02:29,875 --> 00:02:32,458
but someone who,
to the best of my
knowledge,
49
00:02:32,541 --> 00:02:35,750
never personally
killed anyone.
50
00:02:35,833 --> 00:02:39,625
My regret is that
nobody had the chance
to study him,
51
00:02:39,708 --> 00:02:41,249
to find out what
made him tick.
52
00:02:42,625 --> 00:02:44,375
How did he get that way?
53
00:02:44,458 --> 00:02:47,041
Could I get that way?
Could anyone?
54
00:02:47,124 --> 00:02:50,667
♪ ♪
55
00:02:50,750 --> 00:02:53,249
I look back on the many
killers I have come to know
56
00:02:53,333 --> 00:02:55,999
over the past four decades.
57
00:02:56,083 --> 00:02:58,750
There are diagnoses
I make now
58
00:02:58,833 --> 00:03:01,083
that I didn't
even know existed
59
00:03:01,166 --> 00:03:03,875
because of my own
ignorance, comma,
60
00:03:03,958 --> 00:03:07,166
because I didn't ask
the right questions.
61
00:03:07,249 --> 00:03:10,708
(laughs)
It's nice to be able
to correct one's mistakes.
62
00:03:10,792 --> 00:03:15,333
More often, we probably
don't even know
when we make them.
63
00:03:15,416 --> 00:03:18,458
Man:
Doctor, looking at
the evidence in this case,
64
00:03:18,541 --> 00:03:21,375
are you able to tell us
whether the defendant
65
00:03:21,458 --> 00:03:24,041
(echoing):
is insane or not?
66
00:03:24,124 --> 00:03:27,249
♪ ♪
67
00:03:32,625 --> 00:03:35,458
(newsreel music)
68
00:03:35,541 --> 00:03:37,458
Dorothy:
When I was very little,
69
00:03:37,541 --> 00:03:40,541
I remember reading about
the Nuremberg Trials.
70
00:03:40,625 --> 00:03:43,708
Newsreel Narrator:
In Berlin, the defendants
71
00:03:43,792 --> 00:03:45,291
are to plead guilty
72
00:03:45,375 --> 00:03:48,041
-or not guilty...
-Dorothy:
Lying on the carpet.
73
00:03:48,124 --> 00:03:50,667
We lived in New York,
in an apartment,
74
00:03:50,750 --> 00:03:54,041
and the newspaper
in front of me,
75
00:03:54,124 --> 00:03:57,375
and seeing pictures of
Goebbels and Göring.
76
00:03:57,458 --> 00:03:59,708
Judge:
Defendant Hermann
Wilhelm Göring,
77
00:03:59,792 --> 00:04:02,166
the International
Military Tribunal
78
00:04:02,249 --> 00:04:05,875
sentences you to
death by hanging.
79
00:04:05,958 --> 00:04:07,625
Dorothy:
I was aware that
80
00:04:07,708 --> 00:04:11,625
people were deliberately
killing other people.
81
00:04:11,708 --> 00:04:13,625
And I was aware
82
00:04:13,708 --> 00:04:16,999
of my own anger
and my own aggression.
83
00:04:17,999 --> 00:04:20,917
And I remember thinking,
84
00:04:20,999 --> 00:04:23,375
how come I don't kill?
85
00:04:23,458 --> 00:04:26,833
How come, when I get
so angry, I don't kill?
86
00:04:28,166 --> 00:04:29,750
It's fascinated me.
87
00:04:29,833 --> 00:04:32,750
I've been horrified
by the fact that
88
00:04:32,833 --> 00:04:35,999
I think any one of us,
myself included,
89
00:04:36,083 --> 00:04:37,541
could become a Nazi.
90
00:04:37,625 --> 00:04:39,750
♪ ♪
91
00:04:39,833 --> 00:04:43,416
Maybe I went to
medical school
or became a psychiatrist,
92
00:04:43,500 --> 00:04:46,249
in part,
to learn about why.
93
00:04:46,333 --> 00:04:47,999
(bell chiming)
94
00:04:48,083 --> 00:04:50,583
Don't you ever wonder
why you don't murder?
95
00:04:50,667 --> 00:04:52,875
-Alex Gibney: I do.
-Yeah.
96
00:04:56,625 --> 00:04:58,999
I never planned to work
with violent people,
97
00:04:59,083 --> 00:05:00,958
certainly not murderers.
98
00:05:01,041 --> 00:05:02,833
Dorothy and Narrator:
I went through
medical school
99
00:05:02,917 --> 00:05:05,500
in order to become
a psychoanalyst.
100
00:05:05,583 --> 00:05:07,792
I saw myself in
a private office,
101
00:05:07,875 --> 00:05:10,041
seated behind
a supine patient...
102
00:05:10,124 --> 00:05:12,249
Narrator:
listening and commenting
as he struggled
103
00:05:12,333 --> 00:05:14,917
to resolve the violent
internal conflicts
104
00:05:14,999 --> 00:05:16,958
between his id
and his superego.
105
00:05:17,041 --> 00:05:19,833
Instead, a series
of unexpected events
106
00:05:19,917 --> 00:05:24,291
drew me deeper and deeper
into the study of violence.
107
00:05:24,375 --> 00:05:26,166
In the early '70s,
I was working at
108
00:05:26,249 --> 00:05:28,541
the Juvenile Court Clinic
in New Haven,
109
00:05:28,625 --> 00:05:31,124
examining delinquents.
Most of the delinquents
110
00:05:31,208 --> 00:05:32,750
who crossed the threshold
of my office
111
00:05:32,833 --> 00:05:34,166
had horrendous
backgrounds--
112
00:05:34,249 --> 00:05:36,458
car accidents,
falls, burns,
113
00:05:36,541 --> 00:05:39,166
even carbon monoxide
poisoning.
114
00:05:39,249 --> 00:05:40,999
A good number
of the injuries
115
00:05:41,083 --> 00:05:42,625
were not caused by
reckless drivers,
116
00:05:42,708 --> 00:05:46,083
broken tree branches,
or overturned coffee pots.
117
00:05:46,166 --> 00:05:48,500
They were
caused by parents.
118
00:05:48,583 --> 00:05:50,083
♪ ♪
119
00:05:50,166 --> 00:05:52,249
Gradually,
I was gathering clues.
120
00:05:52,333 --> 00:05:55,458
I was discovering why
one person cried in pain,
121
00:05:55,541 --> 00:05:58,291
while another lashed
out in response to it.
122
00:05:59,583 --> 00:06:01,667
(siren wailing)
123
00:06:01,750 --> 00:06:04,792
I managed to get
a small grant to study
the prisoners on
124
00:06:04,875 --> 00:06:07,291
the Bellevue
Forensic Wards.
125
00:06:07,375 --> 00:06:09,333
I examined
Mark David Chapman,
126
00:06:09,416 --> 00:06:11,124
the man who shot
John Lennon.
127
00:06:11,208 --> 00:06:14,416
We also saw a less famous,
but more flamboyant inmate,
128
00:06:14,500 --> 00:06:17,041
who cut off his
father's head and penis,
129
00:06:17,124 --> 00:06:19,500
and chucked both
out the window.
130
00:06:19,583 --> 00:06:22,083
It was a...
colorful period.
131
00:06:22,166 --> 00:06:24,291
(hospital chatter)
132
00:06:26,667 --> 00:06:29,667
Gibney:
So how'd you first start
working with Dorothy?
133
00:06:29,750 --> 00:06:31,750
By accident, yeah. So,
134
00:06:31,833 --> 00:06:34,875
I saw this ad for
a research assistant.
135
00:06:34,958 --> 00:06:38,833
"Juvenile delinquents,"
is what the ad says.
136
00:06:38,917 --> 00:06:41,375
A grant to do a project
137
00:06:41,458 --> 00:06:43,583
having to do with delinquency.
138
00:06:43,667 --> 00:06:45,375
It happened to be Dorothy.
139
00:06:45,458 --> 00:06:48,333
I happened to say,
you know,
I'll give it a shot.
140
00:06:48,416 --> 00:06:51,708
We hit it off,
and it started everything.
141
00:06:51,792 --> 00:06:55,124
Dorothy:
We became a bit of a team,
working together.
142
00:06:55,208 --> 00:07:00,583
And we saw so many
children at Bellevue.
143
00:07:00,667 --> 00:07:03,625
Narrator: A study
of the patients on our
children's psychiatric ward
144
00:07:03,708 --> 00:07:07,500
revealed that
of 55 children
admitted in one year,
145
00:07:07,583 --> 00:07:10,249
21 had been homicidal.
146
00:07:10,333 --> 00:07:14,333
One child was admitted
after trying to
strangle her sister.
147
00:07:14,416 --> 00:07:18,541
Another set fire
to the couch on which
his mother slept.
148
00:07:18,625 --> 00:07:21,124
A 4-year-old held a knife
to his mother's throat.
149
00:07:21,208 --> 00:07:24,458
-(flames burning)
-(children chattering)
150
00:07:24,541 --> 00:07:26,249
We tried to look
at the variables.
151
00:07:26,333 --> 00:07:29,166
Was there any difference between
152
00:07:29,249 --> 00:07:31,541
the homicidal young children,
153
00:07:31,625 --> 00:07:33,375
and the ones who were on
154
00:07:33,458 --> 00:07:37,166
the psychiatric ward,
but had not been homicidal.
155
00:07:37,249 --> 00:07:39,708
And we found that
156
00:07:39,792 --> 00:07:42,833
the homicidal kids
were much more likely
157
00:07:42,917 --> 00:07:44,792
to have been abused,
158
00:07:44,875 --> 00:07:46,792
and they were
much more likely
159
00:07:46,875 --> 00:07:49,958
to have signs of
organic impairment,
160
00:07:50,041 --> 00:07:52,917
brain dysfunction.
161
00:07:52,999 --> 00:07:56,208
Jonathan Pincus:
I was an ambitious academic
neurologist at the time,
162
00:07:56,291 --> 00:07:58,625
on the faculty at Yale.
163
00:07:58,708 --> 00:08:02,041
I thought that there was nothing
164
00:08:02,124 --> 00:08:05,291
neurologically wrong
with violent people.
165
00:08:05,375 --> 00:08:08,166
She convinced me to
participate in the study.
166
00:08:08,249 --> 00:08:09,792
What's the relationship
between
167
00:08:09,875 --> 00:08:12,958
the brain damage
and the behavior?
168
00:08:13,041 --> 00:08:16,458
Dorothy:
What we saw was if you
have battered a child,
169
00:08:16,541 --> 00:08:18,875
shaken it,
knocked it
against the wall,
170
00:08:18,958 --> 00:08:23,208
then you could often
see little hemorrhages
in the brain.
171
00:08:23,291 --> 00:08:25,999
Sometimes,
that distinguished
172
00:08:26,083 --> 00:08:28,083
the super-aggressive kids
173
00:08:28,166 --> 00:08:31,958
from the
psychiatrically ill
but not aggressive kids.
174
00:08:32,500 --> 00:08:34,458
♪ ♪
175
00:08:34,541 --> 00:08:39,333
I had written an article
in a psychiatric journal,
176
00:08:39,416 --> 00:08:43,041
and Diane Sawyer,
her assistants had read it,
177
00:08:43,124 --> 00:08:45,792
and they called me
and she wanted
to interview me.
178
00:08:45,875 --> 00:08:48,958
We're going to take a closer
look at violent children,
179
00:08:49,041 --> 00:08:50,917
-teenagers or...
-Dorothy:
It's the first time
180
00:08:50,999 --> 00:08:52,999
I'd ever been
on television.
181
00:08:53,083 --> 00:08:55,833
Diane Sawyer:
Dr. Lewis, thank you very
much for coming this morning.
182
00:08:55,917 --> 00:08:58,083
It's a fascinating study,
and a pioneering one,
183
00:08:58,166 --> 00:08:59,333
as I understand it.
184
00:08:59,416 --> 00:09:01,792
We did a study of
the medical histories
185
00:09:01,875 --> 00:09:03,208
from hospital records...
186
00:09:03,291 --> 00:09:06,625
Dorothy:
I talked about
the brain dysfunction
187
00:09:06,708 --> 00:09:09,708
and the history of
abuse that a lot of
188
00:09:09,792 --> 00:09:13,667
-the violent kids had.
-46% had major
neurological problems...
189
00:09:13,750 --> 00:09:16,583
Either that day or
the next day, I got a call
190
00:09:16,667 --> 00:09:20,249
from Dick Burr,
just an incredible
public defender
191
00:09:20,333 --> 00:09:23,750
and he said, "I saw you
on the news yesterday."
192
00:09:23,833 --> 00:09:25,667
Dick Burr:
She was talking about how
193
00:09:25,750 --> 00:09:27,958
you can't begin to
evaluate somebody
194
00:09:28,041 --> 00:09:30,541
who's committed a violent
crime unless you have
195
00:09:30,625 --> 00:09:32,958
a really thorough
and complete life history.
196
00:09:33,041 --> 00:09:35,333
-Here's a family history...
-Burr: And at that point
197
00:09:35,416 --> 00:09:37,583
in the death penalty
defense community,
198
00:09:37,667 --> 00:09:40,541
we had always thought
mental health
was important,
199
00:09:40,625 --> 00:09:42,458
but we didn't
understand it.
200
00:09:42,541 --> 00:09:45,166
Dorothy:
He said, "I have a client
201
00:09:45,249 --> 00:09:47,041
on death row
here in Florida."
202
00:09:47,124 --> 00:09:49,541
Burr:
We had a case,
William Elledge...
203
00:09:49,625 --> 00:09:51,708
♪ ♪
204
00:09:51,792 --> 00:09:54,083
that I was the primary
lawyer on,
205
00:09:54,166 --> 00:09:57,249
moving into the state
post-conviction process.
206
00:09:57,333 --> 00:09:59,500
Dorothy:
"Would you be willing to
come down to death row
207
00:09:59,583 --> 00:10:01,041
and examine him?"
208
00:10:01,124 --> 00:10:04,083
Burr:
And she came and helped us
and taught us. (laughs)
209
00:10:04,166 --> 00:10:06,208
-(prison chatter)
-Dorothy: Sure enough,
210
00:10:06,291 --> 00:10:09,166
the guy had
brain dysfunction
211
00:10:09,249 --> 00:10:13,583
and a history
of hideous abuse.
212
00:10:13,667 --> 00:10:16,750
A few weeks later,
I saw I got a call again.
213
00:10:16,833 --> 00:10:18,667
"We have another guy."
214
00:10:18,750 --> 00:10:21,249
His name was Nollie Martin.
215
00:10:21,333 --> 00:10:25,083
Apparently, someone had run
over his head with a car,
216
00:10:25,166 --> 00:10:27,792
and there was
a dent in his head.
217
00:10:27,875 --> 00:10:29,625
So, I wrote it up.
218
00:10:29,708 --> 00:10:32,958
A colleague of mine
said to me,
219
00:10:33,041 --> 00:10:35,166
"Dorothy,
think of it this way.
220
00:10:35,249 --> 00:10:36,958
"If you put your
finger in a haystack
221
00:10:37,041 --> 00:10:40,458
"and you get tapped
by a needle,
that's by chance.
222
00:10:40,541 --> 00:10:44,124
"But if you put
your finger in the haystack
a second time,
223
00:10:44,208 --> 00:10:45,999
and again you're stuck
by a needle," he said,
224
00:10:46,083 --> 00:10:48,541
"there are a lot
of needles there."
225
00:10:48,625 --> 00:10:52,041
Burr:
When a murder happens,
you wonder why.
226
00:10:52,124 --> 00:10:55,416
I've always been of the view
that there are some reasons
227
00:10:55,500 --> 00:10:57,541
that they happen.
Not because people
228
00:10:57,625 --> 00:10:59,750
are inherently bad or evil.
229
00:10:59,833 --> 00:11:01,792
I don't believe in evil.
(laughs)
230
00:11:01,875 --> 00:11:04,583
Anybody who pulls a trigger and
squeezes a life out of somebody
231
00:11:04,667 --> 00:11:06,750
for the calculated reason
of starting a race war
232
00:11:06,833 --> 00:11:08,999
where other people
would be killed is evil.
233
00:11:09,083 --> 00:11:12,750
Well, evil is
a religious concept.
234
00:11:12,833 --> 00:11:14,500
It's not a scientific concept.
235
00:11:14,583 --> 00:11:16,833
And what society wants to do
236
00:11:16,917 --> 00:11:19,917
with a person like
that is up to society.
237
00:11:19,999 --> 00:11:22,792
But, it at least helps
to know what motivates
238
00:11:22,875 --> 00:11:25,917
a serial killer
or what motivates a...
239
00:11:25,999 --> 00:11:29,375
-Right, hatred. That's
what's motivating it.
-Well, it's more than that.
240
00:11:29,458 --> 00:11:30,833
There's much more than that.
241
00:11:30,917 --> 00:11:33,166
Burr:
You know, we all sort
of just saw the light,
242
00:11:33,249 --> 00:11:36,500
and began to realize from
working with Dorothy that
243
00:11:36,583 --> 00:11:40,333
we had to get a lot
more information
about people's lives.
244
00:11:40,416 --> 00:11:42,124
Yeager:
We had defense attorneys
245
00:11:42,208 --> 00:11:44,124
from different parts of
the country start to call us
246
00:11:44,208 --> 00:11:46,958
as a team to see
their tough cases.
247
00:11:47,041 --> 00:11:49,999
These tended not to be
open-and-shut cases
248
00:11:50,083 --> 00:11:53,041
of people doing
violent things.
These were puzzles.
249
00:11:53,124 --> 00:11:56,875
I have now seen
22 serial killers.
250
00:11:56,958 --> 00:11:59,208
A lot of other
plain-old killers,
251
00:11:59,291 --> 00:12:02,208
(chuckle) but 22 serial killers.
252
00:12:02,291 --> 00:12:04,375
And what we tend to find is
253
00:12:04,458 --> 00:12:08,208
when you couple
either a predisposition
to psychosis
254
00:12:08,291 --> 00:12:11,208
and/or some kind of
brain dysfunction,
255
00:12:11,291 --> 00:12:15,625
with a history of horrible
early ongoing abuse,
256
00:12:15,708 --> 00:12:17,833
you get a
super-dangerous person.
257
00:12:19,166 --> 00:12:22,583
And what is fascinating
is you can find
258
00:12:22,667 --> 00:12:25,208
what were the social,
the psychological,
259
00:12:25,291 --> 00:12:28,792
the biological forces that
came together to create
260
00:12:28,875 --> 00:12:31,875
this murderous human being.
261
00:12:32,999 --> 00:12:35,833
It's like being a detective,
which I love.
262
00:12:35,917 --> 00:12:38,041
I truly love it.
263
00:12:38,833 --> 00:12:41,792
(birds chirping)
264
00:12:45,625 --> 00:12:48,833
(coffee machine humming)
265
00:12:48,917 --> 00:12:51,917
-(cafe chatter)
-Dorothy: Thanks so much.
266
00:12:51,999 --> 00:12:54,750
-Thank you. Yeah.
-Barista: You're welcome.
267
00:12:54,833 --> 00:12:56,500
(cars honking)
268
00:13:01,541 --> 00:13:04,833
(elevator bell dings)
269
00:13:04,917 --> 00:13:08,416
Teacher:
The only way to approach
a drawing is to feel free.
270
00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:10,416
If you have that
freedom in you,
271
00:13:10,500 --> 00:13:12,208
it's gonna show
in your drawing.
272
00:13:12,291 --> 00:13:14,083
As long as we keep in mind,
273
00:13:14,166 --> 00:13:16,792
stepping back, looking
at what we're doing,
274
00:13:16,875 --> 00:13:19,249
and then going back
and making changes.
275
00:13:19,333 --> 00:13:21,124
Changes are very important.
276
00:13:21,208 --> 00:13:23,083
I always say
to the students,
277
00:13:23,166 --> 00:13:25,875
remember those first
drawings you were doing,
278
00:13:25,958 --> 00:13:27,958
and then you were
unhappy with them?
279
00:13:28,041 --> 00:13:30,291
Those drawings
allows you actually
280
00:13:30,375 --> 00:13:33,249
to do what you have
been doing now.
281
00:13:33,333 --> 00:13:36,291
And so, that's why I always
talk about the process
282
00:13:36,375 --> 00:13:38,291
and making changes
all the time...
283
00:13:38,375 --> 00:13:41,625
♪ ♪
284
00:13:41,708 --> 00:13:43,458
Dorothy:
Any case I've worked on,
285
00:13:43,541 --> 00:13:45,458
I came as a blank slate,
286
00:13:45,541 --> 00:13:47,875
and saw whatever I saw.
287
00:13:49,333 --> 00:13:53,541
Over time, the complete
picture came to light.
288
00:13:57,917 --> 00:14:01,249
Early in my career,
I evaluated a woman,
289
00:14:01,333 --> 00:14:02,792
Marie Moore.
290
00:14:02,875 --> 00:14:06,166
She lived in an apartment
with her 14-year-old
daughter,
291
00:14:06,249 --> 00:14:09,208
and her daughter's
boyfriend.
292
00:14:09,958 --> 00:14:11,958
The boyfriend was
293
00:14:12,041 --> 00:14:14,541
a particularly sadistic
kind of person.
294
00:14:14,625 --> 00:14:17,458
-(woman giggling)
-Somehow, Marie got
295
00:14:17,541 --> 00:14:19,667
sexually involved
with the boyfriend.
296
00:14:19,750 --> 00:14:22,958
And a girlfriend of
her daughter came over,
297
00:14:23,041 --> 00:14:26,541
-and Marie
and the boyfriend
-(door creaking)
298
00:14:26,625 --> 00:14:30,333
-took her captive.
-(shuts)
299
00:14:30,416 --> 00:14:32,958
They kept her naked,
just in diapers.
300
00:14:33,041 --> 00:14:35,333
-(cuffs click)
-They handcuffed her
301
00:14:35,416 --> 00:14:37,917
and toe-cuffed
her to the floor.
302
00:14:37,999 --> 00:14:40,875
They shoved things
into every orifice
303
00:14:40,958 --> 00:14:43,124
that a person has.
304
00:14:43,208 --> 00:14:46,958
And then, one day,
the 14-year-old boy
305
00:14:47,041 --> 00:14:49,667
dragged her over
to the bathroom
306
00:14:49,750 --> 00:14:51,124
and knocked her head
307
00:14:51,208 --> 00:14:53,333
-(thud)
-against the tub
and killed her.
308
00:14:53,416 --> 00:14:54,583
(dripping)
309
00:14:54,667 --> 00:14:58,041
The body was discovered
and they were arrested.
310
00:14:58,124 --> 00:15:00,041
(police siren, radio chatter)
311
00:15:00,124 --> 00:15:03,041
The boy ratted on Marie.
312
00:15:03,124 --> 00:15:05,500
It was the boy who had
actually killed her,
313
00:15:05,583 --> 00:15:08,917
but, being a juvenile,
he was offered a plea,
314
00:15:08,999 --> 00:15:11,291
and Marie was tried
315
00:15:11,375 --> 00:15:13,500
-for this murder.
-(phone ringing)
316
00:15:13,583 --> 00:15:16,750
I got a call from
an attorney asking me
317
00:15:16,833 --> 00:15:20,249
whether I would do
an evaluation of Marie.
318
00:15:20,333 --> 00:15:23,667
The lawyer said
something to me about how
319
00:15:23,750 --> 00:15:26,583
he thought she was a multiple.
320
00:15:26,667 --> 00:15:29,708
Well, I had been trained
that there was no such thing.
321
00:15:29,792 --> 00:15:31,875
♪ ♪
322
00:15:31,958 --> 00:15:34,500
I went to see her,
323
00:15:34,583 --> 00:15:36,583
and she reminded me of me.
324
00:15:36,667 --> 00:15:40,999
I was wearing big glasses
and she was wearing
big glasses.
325
00:15:41,083 --> 00:15:42,917
We were talking
and I asked her
326
00:15:42,999 --> 00:15:45,958
had anyone ever
bothered her sexually,
327
00:15:46,041 --> 00:15:47,249
and she said,
328
00:15:47,333 --> 00:15:49,500
"No! No! No!
329
00:15:49,583 --> 00:15:52,667
Absolutely not!"
330
00:15:53,875 --> 00:15:55,875
I had been told that
331
00:15:55,958 --> 00:16:00,291
people around her
said that she changed.
332
00:16:00,375 --> 00:16:03,792
That sometimes,
her voice became gruff,
333
00:16:03,875 --> 00:16:06,875
and she wanted
to be called Billy.
334
00:16:06,958 --> 00:16:10,541
So I asked her about this,
and she said,
335
00:16:10,625 --> 00:16:13,416
"Well, people tell me
that I get that way,
336
00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:15,124
"that I become like a boy,
337
00:16:15,208 --> 00:16:18,750
but I don't remember it.
I don't think so."
338
00:16:18,833 --> 00:16:20,208
♪ ♪
339
00:16:20,291 --> 00:16:22,667
It was getting
to be about 5:00,
340
00:16:22,750 --> 00:16:24,708
and the investigator
341
00:16:24,792 --> 00:16:26,833
stuck his head in the door,
and he said, you know,
342
00:16:26,917 --> 00:16:29,667
"We have to go."
And I said, "Marie,
343
00:16:29,750 --> 00:16:33,625
I have to stop now, but
I'll be back to see you."
344
00:16:33,708 --> 00:16:35,583
And she said, "Don't go."
345
00:16:35,667 --> 00:16:38,124
She said,
"There's something
I have to tell you."
346
00:16:38,208 --> 00:16:41,458
In just that tone.
And so, I sat.
347
00:16:42,124 --> 00:16:44,708
And, uh, sat.
348
00:16:44,792 --> 00:16:46,500
And I said,
"You know, Marie,
349
00:16:46,583 --> 00:16:49,124
I really have to go."
350
00:16:49,208 --> 00:16:51,166
And then I gathered
up my papers,
351
00:16:51,249 --> 00:16:54,166
and I turn my back
and put my hand
352
00:16:54,249 --> 00:16:56,999
on the doorknob,
and I hear
353
00:16:57,083 --> 00:17:00,458
behind me a voice
that said...
354
00:17:00,541 --> 00:17:03,208
(gruffly):
"Don't go."
355
00:17:03,291 --> 00:17:07,333
(laughs) You know,
the hairs on my arm stood up.
356
00:17:07,416 --> 00:17:11,416
And I turned around
and I said...
357
00:17:11,500 --> 00:17:14,333
"Billy?"
And he says...
358
00:17:14,416 --> 00:17:15,458
(gruffly):
"Hello."
359
00:17:15,541 --> 00:17:18,999
♪ ♪
360
00:17:19,083 --> 00:17:22,083
I said, "Billy, how long
have you known Marie?"
361
00:17:22,166 --> 00:17:25,708
And he said,
"I've known her
all her life."
362
00:17:25,792 --> 00:17:26,958
I said to him,
363
00:17:27,041 --> 00:17:30,083
"Did her father
ever bother her
364
00:17:30,166 --> 00:17:32,458
in any way?"
And Billy said,
365
00:17:32,541 --> 00:17:34,708
"Sure, he did.
366
00:17:34,792 --> 00:17:37,124
"He used to put pencils
367
00:17:37,208 --> 00:17:39,541
"in her vagina,
in her rectum.
368
00:17:39,625 --> 00:17:42,375
"When she was 12 years old,
he went to bed with her
369
00:17:42,458 --> 00:17:45,041
and he had sex with her."
370
00:17:45,124 --> 00:17:46,792
And I said, "Billy,
371
00:17:46,875 --> 00:17:49,541
I really need to
talk to Marie again."
372
00:17:49,625 --> 00:17:51,792
But Billy said,
373
00:17:51,875 --> 00:17:53,792
"I could kill her.
374
00:17:53,875 --> 00:17:55,875
"I could make her
take pills.
375
00:17:55,958 --> 00:17:58,124
I could make her
hang herself."
376
00:17:59,958 --> 00:18:03,333
That turned out to be
the very first multiple that--
377
00:18:03,416 --> 00:18:05,458
Not the first I've ever seen.
378
00:18:05,541 --> 00:18:07,999
The first that
I ever knew I saw.
379
00:18:08,083 --> 00:18:10,124
♪ ♪
380
00:18:10,208 --> 00:18:14,416
I had her have
psychological testing.
381
00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:16,750
And on the Rorschach test,
382
00:18:16,833 --> 00:18:18,500
which is a projective test,
383
00:18:18,583 --> 00:18:21,875
you look at inkblots
and see what people see,
384
00:18:21,958 --> 00:18:23,750
and there are certain
normal responses
385
00:18:23,833 --> 00:18:27,750
and certain psychotic
kinds of responses.
386
00:18:27,833 --> 00:18:31,291
And Billy's test results
were
387
00:18:31,375 --> 00:18:34,583
as psychotic as they come,
388
00:18:34,667 --> 00:18:37,291
and Marie had absolutely
389
00:18:37,375 --> 00:18:40,708
the most normal Rorschach
that you would expect.
390
00:18:43,667 --> 00:18:47,166
I'm fascinated by
how can there be such
391
00:18:47,249 --> 00:18:50,750
different functioning
in the same brain?
392
00:18:50,833 --> 00:18:52,750
My daughter Gillian says,
393
00:18:52,833 --> 00:18:54,458
"Mom, you're
the only one who does
394
00:18:54,541 --> 00:18:56,291
group therapy with one person."
395
00:18:56,375 --> 00:18:59,500
♪ ♪
396
00:19:00,917 --> 00:19:04,583
Narrator:
I would never again see
people as I had before.
397
00:19:04,667 --> 00:19:07,458
My innocence,
which sprang
from ignorance,
398
00:19:07,541 --> 00:19:09,208
would be stripped away,
399
00:19:09,291 --> 00:19:11,166
and I would learn things
about human beings
400
00:19:11,249 --> 00:19:14,875
that I'd not been taught
during my training
as a psychiatrist.
401
00:19:14,958 --> 00:19:17,708
Things most of us
would rather not know.
402
00:19:19,333 --> 00:19:21,124
Violent alternate
personalities
403
00:19:21,208 --> 00:19:23,750
are usually
caricatures of evil,
404
00:19:23,833 --> 00:19:25,958
created in the minds
of tormented children
405
00:19:26,041 --> 00:19:28,166
to take their pain
and defend them
406
00:19:28,249 --> 00:19:31,999
against real
or imagined enemies.
407
00:19:32,083 --> 00:19:35,041
They embody the strength,
courage, and wiliness
408
00:19:35,124 --> 00:19:37,917
needed for a tortured
child to survive.
409
00:19:39,583 --> 00:19:40,958
Though some mental
health experts say
410
00:19:41,041 --> 00:19:43,750
Multiple Personality Disorder
doesn't exist,
411
00:19:43,833 --> 00:19:46,917
the American Psychiatric
Association says it does,
412
00:19:46,999 --> 00:19:49,625
calling it Dissociative
Identity Disorder,
413
00:19:49,708 --> 00:19:51,541
and adding, in most
cases, it involves
414
00:19:51,625 --> 00:19:54,208
severe abuse or trauma
in childhood.
415
00:19:54,291 --> 00:19:57,625
Parts of the mind splitting
from each other...
416
00:19:57,708 --> 00:20:01,083
Dorothy:
Before Freud, people
like Janet talked about
417
00:20:01,166 --> 00:20:03,416
consciousness at many
different levels,
418
00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:06,833
like streams running
parallel to each other.
419
00:20:06,917 --> 00:20:08,875
♪ ♪
420
00:20:08,958 --> 00:20:10,541
Haven't you ever driven
and been kind of
421
00:20:10,625 --> 00:20:13,291
into your own thoughts
and you pass the exit
422
00:20:13,375 --> 00:20:15,249
that you meant
to get off at
423
00:20:15,333 --> 00:20:18,833
'cause you were really
thinking about
something else?
424
00:20:18,917 --> 00:20:22,375
-We all, from time
to time, dissociate.
-(fireworks popping)
425
00:20:22,458 --> 00:20:24,208
It's a continuum.
426
00:20:24,291 --> 00:20:27,375
There are degrees
all the way to where,
427
00:20:27,458 --> 00:20:30,208
for a period of time,
the individual
428
00:20:30,291 --> 00:20:33,792
truly believes himself
to be someone else.
429
00:20:35,958 --> 00:20:39,750
At Bellevue, we ran
a clinic for children
430
00:20:39,833 --> 00:20:42,375
with Dissociative
Identity Disorder,
431
00:20:42,458 --> 00:20:45,208
and it became clear
that it starts
432
00:20:45,291 --> 00:20:48,958
very, very, very early.
433
00:20:49,041 --> 00:20:51,375
I worked with one child,
let's call her Nancy,
434
00:20:51,458 --> 00:20:54,708
and she had an alter
named Amanda.
435
00:20:59,999 --> 00:21:01,625
Uh...
436
00:21:03,999 --> 00:21:06,583
Around 7 or 8.
437
00:21:06,667 --> 00:21:09,500
-7 or 8? What did
you do for her?
-Mm-hmm.
438
00:21:11,792 --> 00:21:13,917
-I talked to her.
-(clicks pen)
439
00:21:13,999 --> 00:21:15,875
You talked to her?
440
00:21:15,958 --> 00:21:18,333
-What about?
-(clicks pen)
441
00:21:18,416 --> 00:21:20,041
What happened.
442
00:21:21,208 --> 00:21:23,583
Dorothy:
Nancy was referred to me
443
00:21:23,667 --> 00:21:26,416
by a social worker.
444
00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:28,541
She had been abused
by a relative.
445
00:21:37,500 --> 00:21:40,458
Dorothy:
I have videos of
Nancy going through
446
00:21:40,541 --> 00:21:42,667
so many different
kinds of stages.
447
00:21:42,750 --> 00:21:44,249
♪ ♪
448
00:21:44,333 --> 00:21:48,917
Also, Nancy kept a diary.
449
00:21:48,999 --> 00:21:51,833
Her different personas
had different handwriting.
450
00:21:51,917 --> 00:21:54,583
Different spelling!
451
00:21:57,249 --> 00:21:59,291
Narrator:
Alternate personalities
leave evidence
452
00:21:59,375 --> 00:22:01,667
of their existence
all over the place.
453
00:22:01,750 --> 00:22:04,333
Teacher reports,
social service records,
454
00:22:04,416 --> 00:22:06,792
medical charts, journals,
455
00:22:06,875 --> 00:22:09,124
diaries, drawings.
456
00:22:09,208 --> 00:22:11,958
All are pieces
of the puzzle
that reveal the picture
457
00:22:12,041 --> 00:22:15,500
of a divided,
often fragmented mind.
458
00:22:15,583 --> 00:22:17,833
These constitute
the evidence needed to show
459
00:22:17,917 --> 00:22:20,708
that Multiple Personality
Disorder existed
460
00:22:20,792 --> 00:22:23,833
years before the diagnosis
was even considered.
461
00:22:23,917 --> 00:22:25,917
They're proof that
the interviewer
462
00:22:25,999 --> 00:22:28,249
did not create
the disorder.
463
00:22:29,541 --> 00:22:31,458
(applause)
464
00:22:31,541 --> 00:22:33,917
Gibney: So when you
start to present
some of your findings
465
00:22:33,999 --> 00:22:36,041
-to other psychiatric
colleagues...
-Dorothy: Yeah.
466
00:22:36,124 --> 00:22:39,625
...what was their reaction?
Was it welcoming?
467
00:22:39,708 --> 00:22:41,958
Oh sure. (laughs) No.
468
00:22:42,041 --> 00:22:44,917
If you were
an esteemed clinician,
469
00:22:44,999 --> 00:22:48,166
researcher, psychologist,
psychiatrist,
470
00:22:48,249 --> 00:22:49,833
you did not take that seriously.
471
00:22:49,917 --> 00:22:52,792
That was a bogus diagnosis.
472
00:22:52,875 --> 00:22:54,999
Dorothy:
I got ridiculed a lot
473
00:22:55,083 --> 00:22:57,208
at Yale, where I showed
474
00:22:57,291 --> 00:23:02,541
some of the most poignant
pictures of small children,
475
00:23:02,625 --> 00:23:04,625
and you saw them switch,
476
00:23:04,708 --> 00:23:08,208
and you could give
the history of what
had happened to them.
477
00:23:08,291 --> 00:23:11,500
Even when they saw it right
in front of their faces,
478
00:23:11,583 --> 00:23:13,291
the head of one of
the departments said,
479
00:23:13,375 --> 00:23:16,667
"There must be
another explanation."
480
00:23:16,750 --> 00:23:18,208
(laughs) And so I thought,
481
00:23:18,291 --> 00:23:22,208
"Tell me what it is.
I'm open to that." But, uh,
482
00:23:22,291 --> 00:23:24,208
so, there was...
483
00:23:24,291 --> 00:23:27,208
Well, I think there
still is a skepticism.
484
00:23:27,291 --> 00:23:30,041
♪ ♪
485
00:23:30,124 --> 00:23:33,875
At Bellevue,
we had a lot of room
486
00:23:33,958 --> 00:23:38,083
to spread out our data
and to videotape
487
00:23:38,166 --> 00:23:40,416
and stuff like that
and then
488
00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:44,249
they hired someone who was
very hostile to our work
489
00:23:44,333 --> 00:23:48,458
and took away
all our space,
and, eventually, I left.
490
00:23:51,416 --> 00:23:54,541
(machine humming)
491
00:23:55,166 --> 00:23:57,291
(footsteps)
492
00:24:05,958 --> 00:24:07,541
H, I, J...
493
00:24:09,166 --> 00:24:12,625
These files are filled
with death row inmates,
494
00:24:12,708 --> 00:24:15,416
or evaluations
that we've done
495
00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:18,458
on murderers who
were going to trial.
496
00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:21,083
(rattling)
497
00:24:21,166 --> 00:24:24,416
There are also records
of what we discovered
498
00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:26,958
and then what the law
was willing to accept.
499
00:24:27,041 --> 00:24:29,208
♪ ♪
500
00:24:29,291 --> 00:24:32,875
-(typing)
-(indistinct chatter)
501
00:24:32,958 --> 00:24:35,166
Man 1:
She was just snatched
off the street...
502
00:24:36,375 --> 00:24:38,041
Man 2: Found a body...
503
00:24:41,833 --> 00:24:43,625
Man 3:
Possibility of
strangulation...
504
00:24:43,708 --> 00:24:45,833
Man 4: You would not
be able to recognize
the face of the body.
505
00:24:45,917 --> 00:24:47,625
Man 5:
Postmortem mutilation
of the victims...
506
00:24:47,708 --> 00:24:49,917
Man 6:
It is one of the most
significant arrests...
507
00:24:49,999 --> 00:24:51,458
Arthur J. Shawcross...
508
00:24:51,541 --> 00:24:54,416
Served 15 years in prison for
the murder of two children.
509
00:24:54,500 --> 00:24:56,249
1987, he was
released on parole.
510
00:24:56,333 --> 00:24:58,541
Man 7:
He is a severely
emotionally disturbed man.
511
00:24:58,625 --> 00:25:02,291
Woman:
512
00:25:02,375 --> 00:25:04,750
Whether this defendant
was legally insane
513
00:25:04,833 --> 00:25:08,208
is a question of fact
for you to decide.
514
00:25:12,041 --> 00:25:14,500
Narrator:
Arthur Shawcross was
preparing to go to trial
515
00:25:14,583 --> 00:25:16,458
in Rochester, New York.
516
00:25:16,541 --> 00:25:18,625
Before I even laid
eyes on the defendant,
517
00:25:18,708 --> 00:25:21,833
his lawyers had obtained
an MRI of his brain.
518
00:25:21,917 --> 00:25:24,041
The MRI had shown
that at the very tip
519
00:25:24,124 --> 00:25:27,875
of his right temporal lobe
was a small fluid cyst.
520
00:25:27,958 --> 00:25:29,333
♪ ♪
521
00:25:29,416 --> 00:25:32,041
The brain is
a very sensitive organ.
522
00:25:32,124 --> 00:25:35,333
The tiniest scar
or tumor or cyst
523
00:25:35,416 --> 00:25:36,833
can, under certain
circumstances,
524
00:25:36,917 --> 00:25:39,750
trigger abnormal
electric activity
525
00:25:39,833 --> 00:25:42,708
and seizures
associated with bizarre,
526
00:25:42,792 --> 00:25:44,999
animalistic behaviors.
527
00:25:46,792 --> 00:25:49,208
Here is the frontal lobe,
528
00:25:49,291 --> 00:25:52,416
and the frontal
lobes restrain.
529
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:54,500
They're the part
that kind of says,
530
00:25:54,583 --> 00:25:56,333
"Well, I might want
another piece of cake,
531
00:25:56,416 --> 00:25:57,917
but I'm not gonna have it."
532
00:25:57,999 --> 00:26:02,041
Or, "I might like
to rape this lady, but
maybe I can find some...
533
00:26:02,124 --> 00:26:05,375
more appropriate
(laughs) whatever."
534
00:26:05,458 --> 00:26:08,500
There's a deep part
of the brain called
535
00:26:08,583 --> 00:26:10,041
the limbic system.
536
00:26:10,124 --> 00:26:13,166
This limbic system
has to do with food,
537
00:26:13,249 --> 00:26:15,541
with sex, with anger,
538
00:26:15,625 --> 00:26:17,041
with you name it.
539
00:26:17,124 --> 00:26:20,041
It's the very primitive
part of the brain.
540
00:26:20,124 --> 00:26:23,166
There are a lot of connections
between the lobes
541
00:26:23,249 --> 00:26:25,458
and the limbic system.
542
00:26:25,541 --> 00:26:28,458
I think of it as
reins on a horse.
543
00:26:28,541 --> 00:26:30,750
So, with Shawcross,
544
00:26:30,833 --> 00:26:33,999
the cyst in his
temporal lobe
545
00:26:34,083 --> 00:26:37,416
would excite
the limbic system,
546
00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:40,249
and put it out of whack.
547
00:26:40,333 --> 00:26:42,833
But then, Jonathan Pincus
said, "Dorothy,
548
00:26:42,917 --> 00:26:45,541
what about the scars
in the frontal lobe?"
549
00:26:45,625 --> 00:26:47,583
♪ ♪
550
00:26:47,667 --> 00:26:51,249
And, you know, it's incredible.
551
00:26:51,333 --> 00:26:54,917
The reins on the horse
had been cut,
552
00:26:54,999 --> 00:26:57,083
and he was triggered.
553
00:26:57,166 --> 00:26:59,416
If somebody said,
"I'll tell the police,"
554
00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:01,500
or, "I'll tell
your mother."
555
00:27:01,583 --> 00:27:05,667
That would snap him,
and he would kill.
556
00:27:09,667 --> 00:27:12,124
-Dorothy: Do you know me?
No? I'm Dr. Lewis.
-No.
557
00:27:12,208 --> 00:27:15,041
Would it be okay to talk
with you a little bit? Yeah?
558
00:27:15,124 --> 00:27:18,375
I videotaped
Arthur Shawcross, yes.
559
00:27:18,458 --> 00:27:20,708
Yeah. Oh, he was a character.
560
00:27:21,667 --> 00:27:24,875
Dorothy:
561
00:27:31,208 --> 00:27:32,917
And, you know...
562
00:27:50,541 --> 00:27:53,249
(birds chirping,
animals calling)
563
00:28:01,208 --> 00:28:03,166
I just...
564
00:28:03,249 --> 00:28:04,750
Dorothy:
From day one, I said,
565
00:28:04,833 --> 00:28:07,333
"I think he has
temporal lobe seizures
566
00:28:07,416 --> 00:28:09,291
from everything
he told me."
567
00:28:09,375 --> 00:28:11,999
The person may see
very bright lights,
568
00:28:12,083 --> 00:28:15,625
the person may get nauseated,
the person...
569
00:28:15,708 --> 00:28:18,667
may feel a headache
or dizzy,
570
00:28:18,750 --> 00:28:21,124
followed by sleep.
571
00:28:39,416 --> 00:28:42,124
Dorothy:
What would happen is
the girl would be in his car
572
00:28:42,208 --> 00:28:44,541
or his van,
573
00:28:44,625 --> 00:28:46,291
and he would kill her,
574
00:28:46,375 --> 00:28:48,750
and he'd fall sound asleep.
575
00:28:48,833 --> 00:28:50,541
And he'd wake up,
576
00:28:50,625 --> 00:28:53,458
and it was kinda, "Oops.
I must've done it again."
577
00:28:54,958 --> 00:28:56,958
Shawcross:
578
00:29:02,833 --> 00:29:05,375
(police chatter)
579
00:29:05,458 --> 00:29:08,208
Yeager:
Something that was telling
about how his brain worked
580
00:29:08,291 --> 00:29:11,375
was we interviewed
the wife separately,
581
00:29:11,458 --> 00:29:13,999
and she did not believe
he had done anything bad.
582
00:29:14,083 --> 00:29:16,583
She saw him as
this loving man
583
00:29:16,667 --> 00:29:20,333
who worked nights.
He was a cook
in a cafeteria.
584
00:29:20,416 --> 00:29:22,750
And then he would be done
early in the morning,
585
00:29:22,833 --> 00:29:25,208
and our best guess was if he
was gonna commit a murder,
586
00:29:25,291 --> 00:29:27,750
it would be sometime
in the dark in
the middle of the night
587
00:29:27,833 --> 00:29:29,792
or towards dawn.
588
00:29:29,875 --> 00:29:31,708
And he would tell his wife,
589
00:29:31,792 --> 00:29:34,958
"You know, there's
a serial murderer around.
Don't go out."
590
00:29:35,041 --> 00:29:37,667
(laughs) So,
when she told us that,
591
00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:39,792
you know, at that point,
we had an inkling
592
00:29:39,875 --> 00:29:42,208
that there was
something not right.
593
00:29:42,291 --> 00:29:44,458
Dorothy:
594
00:29:50,792 --> 00:29:52,500
(in falsetto): Bessie.
595
00:29:52,583 --> 00:29:54,208
Bessie!
596
00:29:58,792 --> 00:30:00,208
(paper crinkling)
597
00:30:04,166 --> 00:30:06,999
Narrator:
It became clear that
Arthur Shawcross experienced
598
00:30:07,083 --> 00:30:09,041
dissociative states.
599
00:30:09,124 --> 00:30:12,249
At these times, he would
hear his mother in his head,
600
00:30:12,333 --> 00:30:15,249
berating him and the women
he was seeing.
601
00:30:15,333 --> 00:30:18,333
No one was good enough
for Artie. They should die.
602
00:30:19,166 --> 00:30:22,083
Dorothy:
603
00:30:24,333 --> 00:30:26,708
-I hurt all of them.
-Dorothy: What?
604
00:30:32,875 --> 00:30:34,041
(scoffs)
605
00:30:38,917 --> 00:30:41,041
Dorothy:
606
00:30:54,708 --> 00:30:57,875
Dorothy:
He lifted up his fist.
607
00:30:59,625 --> 00:31:02,625
There was no way
that I could get out,
608
00:31:02,708 --> 00:31:06,583
and I thought that he
was going to attack me.
609
00:31:08,625 --> 00:31:10,249
Dorothy:
A knife?
610
00:31:17,166 --> 00:31:18,958
(sighs)
611
00:31:23,833 --> 00:31:25,291
Dorothy:
612
00:31:25,792 --> 00:31:27,041
(sighs)
613
00:31:27,124 --> 00:31:30,249
Dorothy:
Who are you cutting?
614
00:31:30,333 --> 00:31:32,208
Dorothy:
One of his victims
615
00:31:32,291 --> 00:31:34,999
had been sliced
from her neck
616
00:31:35,083 --> 00:31:37,541
all the way down
to her pubic area.
617
00:31:37,625 --> 00:31:41,083
-(police chatter)
-(siren)
618
00:31:41,166 --> 00:31:42,958
Dorothy:
619
00:31:44,792 --> 00:31:46,999
(in childish voice):
620
00:31:47,875 --> 00:31:48,958
Dorothy:
621
00:31:49,041 --> 00:31:50,249
(whimpers)
622
00:31:51,792 --> 00:31:53,958
Where is she biting you, Art?
623
00:31:55,291 --> 00:31:57,249
Art, Art, where is she--
624
00:31:57,333 --> 00:31:58,625
Dorothy:
625
00:31:59,333 --> 00:32:00,999
(whimpers)
626
00:32:04,958 --> 00:32:07,375
Narrator:
I had no question
that Mr. Shawcross
627
00:32:07,458 --> 00:32:10,416
had been severely abused.
628
00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:12,375
School records
described his mother
629
00:32:12,458 --> 00:32:14,750
as punishing and rejecting.
630
00:32:14,833 --> 00:32:18,041
In grade school,
the young Arthur
cowered under radiators
631
00:32:18,124 --> 00:32:21,708
-while the other
children sang songs.
-(distant singing)
632
00:32:21,792 --> 00:32:23,500
Psychological tests revealed
633
00:32:23,583 --> 00:32:25,583
a seriously disturbed child,
634
00:32:25,667 --> 00:32:28,291
lost in a fantasy in
which he perceived himself
635
00:32:28,375 --> 00:32:30,958
a new person.
636
00:32:31,041 --> 00:32:32,708
(normal voice):
637
00:32:51,291 --> 00:32:52,958
Opening arguments
began today
638
00:32:53,041 --> 00:32:55,625
in the Shawcross murder trial,
and late this afternoon,
639
00:32:55,708 --> 00:32:57,291
the first witnesses
were called to the stand.
640
00:32:57,375 --> 00:32:59,583
Defense Attorney
Thomas Cocuzzi
641
00:32:59,667 --> 00:33:01,500
contends that his
client's sanity
642
00:33:01,583 --> 00:33:03,875
is in question.
Cocuzzi told jurors
643
00:33:03,958 --> 00:33:06,124
that he will put
an expert psychiatrist,
644
00:33:06,208 --> 00:33:07,750
Dr. Dorothy Lewis,
on the stand.
645
00:33:07,833 --> 00:33:09,416
Thomas Cocuzzi:
And you're going to hear aspects
646
00:33:09,500 --> 00:33:11,917
of his medical records
and his school records
647
00:33:11,999 --> 00:33:13,708
and his prison records...
648
00:33:14,917 --> 00:33:17,458
reflecting his behavior
649
00:33:17,541 --> 00:33:19,958
not since his arrest,
650
00:33:20,041 --> 00:33:21,458
but throughout his life.
651
00:33:21,541 --> 00:33:25,083
-Gibney: You were
testifying for the defense.
-Yes, I was.
652
00:33:25,166 --> 00:33:26,999
But what's
interesting with him--
653
00:33:27,083 --> 00:33:28,792
Gibney:
To keep him from
being executed?
654
00:33:28,875 --> 00:33:31,041
Well, not really
'cause it was New York,
655
00:33:31,124 --> 00:33:34,333
and they don't execute
people in New York.
656
00:33:34,416 --> 00:33:36,750
But the defense was arguing
657
00:33:36,833 --> 00:33:40,458
he should be
in an institution,
not in prison.
658
00:33:42,750 --> 00:33:45,458
And I had said
to the lawyers,
659
00:33:45,541 --> 00:33:48,041
"We're gonna be
educating the public.
660
00:33:48,124 --> 00:33:50,583
"Look, you can show
the jury pictures
661
00:33:50,667 --> 00:33:52,500
"of the MRI.
662
00:33:52,583 --> 00:33:54,458
"You can see the cyst.
663
00:33:54,541 --> 00:33:57,667
"You can see the scars
in the frontal lobe.
664
00:33:57,750 --> 00:34:01,416
Go with that."
And they didn't.
665
00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:07,333
Instead, they ran with
the dissociative symptoms.
666
00:34:08,249 --> 00:34:10,999
Dorothy (on video):
667
00:34:11,625 --> 00:34:14,583
(in falsetto):
668
00:34:14,667 --> 00:34:18,458
But that's a much tougher
diagnosis for a jury.
669
00:34:18,541 --> 00:34:21,708
I mean, it, it
just seems so fantastic.
670
00:34:21,792 --> 00:34:23,958
Dorothy (on video):
671
00:34:26,583 --> 00:34:27,667
Dorothy: 11?
672
00:34:32,750 --> 00:34:35,291
-Shawcross (on video):
-Dorothy (on video): No?
673
00:34:35,375 --> 00:34:37,208
Narrator:
I had been tricked.
674
00:34:37,291 --> 00:34:39,958
What about
the neurological findings?
675
00:34:40,041 --> 00:34:41,416
By the time
I took the stand,
676
00:34:41,500 --> 00:34:43,583
it was clear that
Shawcross' attorneys
677
00:34:43,667 --> 00:34:47,166
were not going to
produce a neurologist.
678
00:34:47,249 --> 00:34:50,458
Your Honor, I was lied to,
and therefore,
679
00:34:50,541 --> 00:34:53,750
I cannot credibly testify
680
00:34:53,833 --> 00:34:57,291
without clarifying
what I was told,
681
00:34:57,375 --> 00:34:59,416
what I was told
was being done,
682
00:34:59,500 --> 00:35:03,208
-and then what I...
-Burr: Dorothy had a hard
time on the witness stand.
683
00:35:05,375 --> 00:35:07,541
She was always involved
in so many things.
684
00:35:07,625 --> 00:35:10,583
She would come to
wherever the hearing was,
685
00:35:10,667 --> 00:35:13,416
and she wouldn't have sort of
686
00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:15,541
gathered her thoughts and,
687
00:35:15,625 --> 00:35:17,999
you know, kinda
systematized her thinking.
688
00:35:18,083 --> 00:35:21,375
Dorothy's not linear, um.
689
00:35:21,458 --> 00:35:24,291
And that's part of her genius.
690
00:35:24,375 --> 00:35:26,875
But it's also part of...
691
00:35:26,999 --> 00:35:28,999
frustration in trying to,
692
00:35:29,083 --> 00:35:30,999
to bring her into a system
693
00:35:31,083 --> 00:35:34,291
that requires linearity,
like the legal system.
694
00:35:34,375 --> 00:35:36,458
-(indistinct)
-Dorothy: Your Honor,
may I please request
695
00:35:36,541 --> 00:35:38,416
a recess for 15 minutes
696
00:35:38,500 --> 00:35:43,124
because I do not feel
prepared to go on right now.
697
00:35:43,208 --> 00:35:45,124
Narrator:
I was repeatedly
chastised by the judge
698
00:35:45,208 --> 00:35:48,416
for not responding
directly to questions
with a succinct
699
00:35:48,500 --> 00:35:49,958
yes or no.
700
00:35:50,041 --> 00:35:53,416
I looked clumsy
and disorganized.
701
00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:57,500
This is not the way
psychiatry works.
It is not the way...
702
00:35:57,583 --> 00:36:00,625
Narrator:
The prosecution hired
Park Dietz, one of the most
703
00:36:00,708 --> 00:36:03,792
highly regarded forensic
psychiatrists in the nation,
704
00:36:03,875 --> 00:36:08,041
a man who had been
a consultant
at the FBI and CIA.
705
00:36:08,124 --> 00:36:11,999
He was a handsome,
confident man who
never appeared hassled.
706
00:36:12,083 --> 00:36:14,625
It was very clear what was
happening on the videotapes,
707
00:36:14,708 --> 00:36:16,792
that Dr. Lewis was inviting him
708
00:36:16,875 --> 00:36:18,999
to play various performances.
709
00:36:19,083 --> 00:36:21,291
She invited him
to play the role
710
00:36:21,375 --> 00:36:23,166
of his mother,
even telling him that
711
00:36:23,249 --> 00:36:26,875
he can take on the role of his
mother and talk like his mother,
712
00:36:26,958 --> 00:36:29,999
and he even does it in
a falsetto voice.
713
00:36:30,083 --> 00:36:32,999
Gibney:
Do you buy the whole idea of
Multiple Personality Disorder?
714
00:36:33,083 --> 00:36:35,583
No. (laughs)
I think it's a hoax.
715
00:36:36,541 --> 00:36:38,500
I think it is a sad fact
716
00:36:38,583 --> 00:36:40,500
that people in my profession
717
00:36:40,583 --> 00:36:43,583
were so eager
to find something
718
00:36:43,667 --> 00:36:46,999
that they did a form
of interviewing
719
00:36:47,083 --> 00:36:49,458
that can cause
vulnerable people
720
00:36:49,541 --> 00:36:52,583
to believe they have more
than one personality.
721
00:36:53,208 --> 00:36:55,667
Dorothy:
722
00:37:01,124 --> 00:37:04,208
Dietz:
Dr. Lewis subjected
Shawcross
723
00:37:04,291 --> 00:37:09,083
to a kind of a hypnosis
during part of her
interview.
724
00:37:09,999 --> 00:37:11,792
Dorothy:
725
00:37:14,416 --> 00:37:17,375
Dorothy: You don't like
to use hypnosis
if you can avoid it.
726
00:37:17,458 --> 00:37:22,833
But it was early
in my career
at the Shawcross trial.
727
00:37:22,917 --> 00:37:25,041
Hypnosis is questionable.
728
00:37:25,124 --> 00:37:28,625
People who can be hypnotized
can also-- are very suggestible.
729
00:37:28,708 --> 00:37:31,708
If you do use hypnosis,
you want to
730
00:37:31,792 --> 00:37:34,249
confirm what was said,
731
00:37:34,333 --> 00:37:36,416
either from other relatives,
732
00:37:36,500 --> 00:37:39,041
friends, hospital records,
school records.
733
00:37:39,124 --> 00:37:42,208
You just can't
believe everything.
734
00:37:42,291 --> 00:37:44,750
Dietz:
During a hypnotic session,
735
00:37:44,833 --> 00:37:49,500
he identified himself as
a 13th century cannibal.
736
00:37:52,667 --> 00:37:54,291
Yeah?
737
00:37:59,375 --> 00:38:00,999
Dorothy:
738
00:38:05,083 --> 00:38:07,708
He exhibited none
of that with me.
739
00:38:09,041 --> 00:38:10,833
Dietz:
740
00:38:16,667 --> 00:38:18,041
Dietz:
He answered to his name,
741
00:38:18,124 --> 00:38:20,875
as he had to everybody else
throughout his entire life,
742
00:38:20,958 --> 00:38:22,291
except Dorothy Lewis.
743
00:38:22,375 --> 00:38:24,792
And he understood how,
where, when, and why
744
00:38:24,875 --> 00:38:27,083
he did every one
of those murders.
745
00:38:39,625 --> 00:38:42,875
Any popular notion
that serial killers
746
00:38:42,958 --> 00:38:45,833
are crazy people is just wrong.
747
00:38:45,917 --> 00:38:48,999
We have no way to
know how many men
748
00:38:49,083 --> 00:38:51,958
have as their favorite
sexual fantasy
749
00:38:52,041 --> 00:38:53,625
strangling a woman to death
750
00:38:53,708 --> 00:38:56,083
until her tongue
protrudes from her mouth
751
00:38:56,166 --> 00:38:59,458
and you hear the last breath
leave her body.
752
00:38:59,541 --> 00:39:02,999
But I bet it isn't related
only to those few men
753
00:39:03,083 --> 00:39:05,249
who do that routinely.
754
00:39:06,750 --> 00:39:07,999
Gibney:
This was a guy who did
755
00:39:08,083 --> 00:39:10,166
some pretty grisly
things to his victims.
756
00:39:10,249 --> 00:39:11,958
Well, he...
757
00:39:12,041 --> 00:39:14,917
ate the vagina of one of them,
758
00:39:14,999 --> 00:39:16,999
and, uh, you know,
759
00:39:17,083 --> 00:39:20,792
I thought that was pretty
bizarre, and I've seen a lot.
760
00:39:20,875 --> 00:39:22,917
Nobody with
a taste for that.
761
00:39:31,041 --> 00:39:32,500
Dorothy:
On the stand,
762
00:39:32,583 --> 00:39:35,375
Park Dietz said
he ate the vagina
763
00:39:35,458 --> 00:39:37,333
to hide the DNA.
764
00:39:37,416 --> 00:39:40,041
Surely, Doctor,
there must be an easier way
765
00:39:40,124 --> 00:39:42,875
to get rid of
the evidence. (laughs)
766
00:39:42,958 --> 00:39:44,999
♪ ♪
767
00:39:45,083 --> 00:39:46,708
Dietz:
Ultimately,
it was my opinion
768
00:39:46,792 --> 00:39:48,750
that Shawcross
was not insane
769
00:39:48,833 --> 00:39:51,375
under the law, and that
he knew what he was doing,
770
00:39:51,458 --> 00:39:53,208
knew it was wrong.
771
00:39:53,291 --> 00:39:54,999
Gibney:
"What kind of sane person
772
00:39:55,083 --> 00:39:57,249
would eat the vaginas
of his victims?"
773
00:39:57,333 --> 00:40:01,625
I guess would be what
an average person
like me might say.
774
00:40:01,708 --> 00:40:03,833
One has nothing
to do with the other.
775
00:40:03,917 --> 00:40:09,124
Whether you are responsible
for a murder you did
776
00:40:09,208 --> 00:40:13,041
is unrelated to whether
you once ate a raw rabbit
777
00:40:13,124 --> 00:40:15,291
or a raw vagina.
778
00:40:15,999 --> 00:40:19,458
Cold, calculating,
779
00:40:19,541 --> 00:40:21,833
and remorseless.
780
00:40:21,917 --> 00:40:23,541
For whom killing
781
00:40:23,625 --> 00:40:26,416
was not an emotional
disturbance.
782
00:40:26,500 --> 00:40:29,124
Yeager:
Siragusa was the prosecutor
on the case,
783
00:40:29,208 --> 00:40:33,416
and he was running
for office.
784
00:40:33,500 --> 00:40:36,249
And so, I think
she was the recipient
785
00:40:36,333 --> 00:40:38,667
of his need to
786
00:40:38,750 --> 00:40:40,541
show that he's
a tough guy on crime.
787
00:40:40,625 --> 00:40:42,875
-And you said--
-Dorothy: Said that they
might've been caused...
788
00:40:42,958 --> 00:40:46,999
-by a stroke.
-Excuse me, Doctor.
Can you answer--
789
00:40:47,083 --> 00:40:49,958
Can you try, Doctor,
just to answer our question?
790
00:40:50,041 --> 00:40:51,833
-Shh.
-Can you hear me, Doctor?
791
00:40:51,917 --> 00:40:54,917
Yeager:
And he was gonna put her
into the mud because that
792
00:40:54,999 --> 00:40:57,875
would help his cause,
and he did get elected.
793
00:40:57,958 --> 00:40:59,541
I would never say anything
794
00:40:59,625 --> 00:41:02,458
about Dr. Lewis other
than to comment that
795
00:41:02,541 --> 00:41:05,541
I think her performance in
court speaks for itself.
796
00:41:05,625 --> 00:41:08,416
You know, Dorothy paved the way
797
00:41:08,500 --> 00:41:10,458
for a whole generation
798
00:41:10,541 --> 00:41:14,375
of mental health professionals
who followed in her steps.
799
00:41:14,458 --> 00:41:18,249
But she was a pioneer,
and pioneers are often...
800
00:41:18,333 --> 00:41:20,124
you know, not treated well.
801
00:41:20,208 --> 00:41:22,625
I think there was
an intuitive recognition
802
00:41:22,708 --> 00:41:25,208
on the part of prosecutors, uh,
803
00:41:26,041 --> 00:41:28,208
that what she had to say
804
00:41:29,875 --> 00:41:32,875
bore heavily on the truth.
805
00:41:32,958 --> 00:41:35,291
And the truth is not
806
00:41:35,375 --> 00:41:37,792
what some prosecutors wanted.
807
00:41:37,875 --> 00:41:41,833
She swallowed
the stories he told
hook, line, and sinker.
808
00:41:41,917 --> 00:41:43,875
Gibney:
So when you were
on the stand,
809
00:41:43,958 --> 00:41:46,667
the attorney
on the other side,
the prosecuting attorney
810
00:41:46,750 --> 00:41:49,041
-was making fun of you
for thinking that there was
-Yes.
811
00:41:49,124 --> 00:41:52,999
-such a thing
as multiple personalities.
-Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
812
00:41:53,083 --> 00:41:55,917
Or for anything else
(laughs) you know.
813
00:41:55,999 --> 00:41:58,708
The local radio station
made up jingles about me.
814
00:41:58,792 --> 00:42:01,083
DJ:
The boys have written
a song in Dorothy's honor
815
00:42:01,166 --> 00:42:03,083
and I hope it
comes out alright.
816
00:42:03,166 --> 00:42:05,500
♪ Hey, look who's
on the stand again ♪
817
00:42:05,583 --> 00:42:07,083
(country music)
818
00:42:07,166 --> 00:42:09,750
♪ Back to defend
her killer friend ♪
819
00:42:10,917 --> 00:42:13,166
♪ Got her
psychiatry degree ♪
820
00:42:13,249 --> 00:42:14,917
♪ Hoo Lord! ♪
821
00:42:14,999 --> 00:42:18,583
♪ Now, she's on
Arthur's side you see ♪
822
00:42:18,667 --> 00:42:22,541
♪ She tries to
justify what's wrong ♪
823
00:42:22,625 --> 00:42:25,124
♪ Because his mother played
with his dong, hey, hey! ♪
824
00:42:25,208 --> 00:42:27,708
♪ Yakety yak,
Dorothy's back ♪
825
00:42:27,792 --> 00:42:29,541
-Yeah.
-Gibney: They were making
fun of you because--
826
00:42:29,625 --> 00:42:31,208
just because
you were on his side,
or because
827
00:42:31,291 --> 00:42:33,792
you were evincing
a particular theory about him?
828
00:42:35,667 --> 00:42:37,583
How about all of the above?
829
00:42:37,667 --> 00:42:39,833
All of the above,
you know, uh...
830
00:42:43,583 --> 00:42:44,708
Yeah.
831
00:42:44,792 --> 00:42:46,166
Members of the jury,
832
00:42:46,249 --> 00:42:48,291
how do you find
in the matter of
833
00:42:48,375 --> 00:42:51,667
the People of the State of
New York vs. Arthur Shawcross?
834
00:42:51,750 --> 00:42:53,541
Foreman:
Guilty.
835
00:42:53,625 --> 00:42:55,833
Narrator:
It took the jury
less than two hours
836
00:42:55,917 --> 00:42:57,541
to find Mr. Shawcross sane
837
00:42:57,625 --> 00:43:00,375
and guilty of
the murders of 10 women.
838
00:43:00,458 --> 00:43:02,750
It took me three years
to recover
839
00:43:02,833 --> 00:43:04,917
from my three weeks
on the stand.
840
00:43:04,999 --> 00:43:07,792
No one had believed
a word I said.
841
00:43:07,875 --> 00:43:11,124
-Reporter: Do you think
Dorothy Lewis let you down?
-Don't block me, please.
842
00:43:11,208 --> 00:43:14,166
I have no comment
on Dr. Dorothy Lewis.
843
00:43:14,249 --> 00:43:17,999
-Thank you.
-(door shutting)
844
00:43:18,083 --> 00:43:20,458
Dorothy:
What are you doing?
What's happening?
845
00:43:20,541 --> 00:43:23,333
(whimpering) No more.
846
00:43:25,958 --> 00:43:29,208
Narrator:
Was Arthur Shawcross crazy
when he murdered his victims
847
00:43:29,291 --> 00:43:32,249
and consumed
their genitalia?
848
00:43:32,333 --> 00:43:35,583
Of course. He had to be.
849
00:43:35,667 --> 00:43:37,917
Insane?
850
00:43:37,999 --> 00:43:40,166
Not necessarily.
851
00:43:43,500 --> 00:43:46,667
(birds chirping)
852
00:43:48,833 --> 00:43:51,083
-Gibney: When a defense
attorney hires you...
-Dorothy: Yeah? Mm-hmm.
853
00:43:51,166 --> 00:43:53,625
-in the legal system, for what
purpose do they hire you?
-Dorothy: Yeah.
854
00:43:53,708 --> 00:43:55,291
Well, uh, you know,
855
00:43:55,375 --> 00:43:57,792
I don't really care
for what purpose
856
00:43:57,875 --> 00:44:00,792
'cause I do
the same evaluation.
857
00:44:00,875 --> 00:44:03,083
They're probably
hoping that I will find
858
00:44:03,166 --> 00:44:06,333
the person is stark
raving mad. (laughs)
But, uh...
859
00:44:07,792 --> 00:44:10,917
The law has a lot to learn
from psychiatry.
860
00:44:10,999 --> 00:44:15,833
And instead, psychiatry
accepts the legal definition
861
00:44:15,917 --> 00:44:19,249
of what's crazy
and what isn't crazy.
862
00:44:19,333 --> 00:44:21,291
They have a notion
of competence,
863
00:44:21,375 --> 00:44:23,625
and a notion of insanity,
864
00:44:23,708 --> 00:44:27,750
both of which don't make
sense psychiatrically.
865
00:44:27,833 --> 00:44:31,124
There are different
levels of competence.
866
00:44:31,208 --> 00:44:33,333
"Oh, well, I know
what a courtroom is.
867
00:44:33,416 --> 00:44:36,416
A courtroom is where there's
a judge and there's a jury."
868
00:44:36,500 --> 00:44:38,833
"And do you know what
you're accused of?"
869
00:44:38,917 --> 00:44:41,500
"Oh yeah.
I'm accused of robbery,
870
00:44:41,583 --> 00:44:42,999
of murder, and..."
871
00:44:43,083 --> 00:44:46,500
Done, you know?
He's competent.
872
00:44:46,583 --> 00:44:48,583
This is the law, period.
873
00:44:50,375 --> 00:44:52,333
Burr:
In the Middle Ages
in England,
874
00:44:52,416 --> 00:44:54,875
they had the death penalty,
and the legal system
875
00:44:54,958 --> 00:44:58,166
had the view if
somebody had become mad,
876
00:44:58,249 --> 00:45:01,500
that madness itself
was enough punishment.
877
00:45:01,583 --> 00:45:03,999
That's part of
the English common law
878
00:45:04,083 --> 00:45:08,416
that came with the English
colonists to North America.
879
00:45:08,500 --> 00:45:10,333
At some point though,
880
00:45:10,416 --> 00:45:13,291
in death penalty cases
in the United States,
881
00:45:13,375 --> 00:45:15,625
that notion got lost.
882
00:45:15,708 --> 00:45:18,333
That madness was
punishment enough,
883
00:45:18,416 --> 00:45:21,792
and people could be executed
884
00:45:21,875 --> 00:45:24,833
despite being very psychotic.
885
00:45:26,041 --> 00:45:28,667
And as late as the 1950s,
886
00:45:28,750 --> 00:45:31,875
the US Supreme Court had
examined a case like that,
887
00:45:31,958 --> 00:45:33,875
and said that doesn't
offend the Constitution.
888
00:45:33,958 --> 00:45:36,249
It's not cruel
and unusual to do that.
889
00:45:37,708 --> 00:45:40,208
Dorothy:
You're competent
to be executed
890
00:45:40,291 --> 00:45:43,375
if you know what you've
been found guilty of,
891
00:45:43,458 --> 00:45:46,750
and if you know what
it is to be executed.
892
00:45:49,124 --> 00:45:51,625
Now, that's a pretty low bar,
wouldn't you say?
893
00:45:53,875 --> 00:45:56,416
By and large,
the law has taken on
894
00:45:56,500 --> 00:45:59,124
the very simple-minded
criterion
895
00:45:59,208 --> 00:46:01,249
that ignores all
that we know now
896
00:46:01,333 --> 00:46:03,999
about how
the human brain works,
897
00:46:04,083 --> 00:46:06,625
about some of the genetics
of disorders.
898
00:46:08,500 --> 00:46:10,667
(applause, cheering)
899
00:46:10,750 --> 00:46:13,541
When Clinton was
running for president,
900
00:46:13,625 --> 00:46:16,124
he was called back
to Arkansas
901
00:46:16,208 --> 00:46:20,750
to sign a death warrant
because he was governor.
902
00:46:20,833 --> 00:46:24,875
Apparently, Ricky Ray was
used to having his dinner
903
00:46:24,958 --> 00:46:29,375
at a certain time and saving
the dessert for later.
904
00:46:29,458 --> 00:46:31,166
And he...
905
00:46:31,249 --> 00:46:33,583
saved his pecan pie
906
00:46:33,667 --> 00:46:36,917
for after the execution.
907
00:46:36,999 --> 00:46:41,458
Now, I would say he didn't know
what it meant to be executed.
908
00:46:41,541 --> 00:46:44,458
But my colleagues found
him perfectly competent
909
00:46:44,541 --> 00:46:46,124
to be executed.
910
00:46:46,208 --> 00:46:48,291
And I don't know
who ate the pie.
911
00:46:48,375 --> 00:46:51,541
(applause, cheering)
912
00:46:55,583 --> 00:46:58,708
♪ ♪
913
00:46:59,917 --> 00:47:01,958
Max (singing):
♪ Mrs. Mooney
has a pie shop ♪
914
00:47:02,041 --> 00:47:05,041
♪ Does good business,
but I've noticed
something weird ♪
915
00:47:05,124 --> 00:47:08,124
♪ Lately, all the neighbors'
cats have disappeared ♪
916
00:47:08,208 --> 00:47:09,667
♪ Wouldn't do in my shop ♪
917
00:47:09,750 --> 00:47:12,416
♪ Just the thought of it's
enough to make you sick ♪
918
00:47:12,500 --> 00:47:15,416
♪ And I'm telling you
them pussycats is quick ♪
919
00:47:15,500 --> 00:47:18,541
♪ No denying times
is hard, sir ♪
920
00:47:18,625 --> 00:47:21,917
♪ Even harder than the worst
pies in London-- ♪
921
00:47:23,833 --> 00:47:25,750
More pies.
922
00:47:25,833 --> 00:47:27,792
More pies.
923
00:47:27,875 --> 00:47:29,375
More pies.
924
00:47:31,416 --> 00:47:33,500
More pies.
925
00:47:33,583 --> 00:47:35,416
Eat the flesh.
926
00:47:35,500 --> 00:47:39,249
♪ Eat his body,
drink his blood ♪
927
00:47:39,333 --> 00:47:42,208
Narrator:
I am haunted by
the prospect of condemning
928
00:47:42,291 --> 00:47:44,833
to death a person
whose upbringing
929
00:47:44,917 --> 00:47:46,667
and brain function
have made it hard,
930
00:47:46,750 --> 00:47:50,249
if not impossible,
for him to control his acts.
931
00:47:50,333 --> 00:47:52,500
Granted, the person
may be a menace.
932
00:47:52,583 --> 00:47:54,917
I have no problem
locking him up
933
00:47:54,999 --> 00:47:56,999
and throwing away the key.
934
00:47:57,083 --> 00:47:59,333
Until we know how to
treat such individuals,
935
00:47:59,416 --> 00:48:01,291
the public
must be protected.
936
00:48:07,999 --> 00:48:09,375
Dorothy:
937
00:48:09,458 --> 00:48:10,667
(bird chirping)
938
00:48:17,208 --> 00:48:21,583
Max was brought to
the prison ward at Bellevue
939
00:48:21,667 --> 00:48:24,541
because this was
the second time
940
00:48:24,625 --> 00:48:27,833
that he had tried
to kill a lover.
941
00:48:27,917 --> 00:48:30,166
♪ ♪
942
00:48:30,249 --> 00:48:33,500
I was called by
one of the doctors
943
00:48:33,583 --> 00:48:36,166
because they
believed that he had
944
00:48:36,249 --> 00:48:38,875
Multiple Personality
Disorder.
945
00:48:38,958 --> 00:48:42,500
I was asked to
confirm the diagnosis,
946
00:48:42,583 --> 00:48:44,249
and then we kinda clicked.
947
00:48:44,333 --> 00:48:47,500
-(Dorothy laughs)
-So, I went to see
him frequently.
948
00:48:47,583 --> 00:48:48,958
Party tonight.
949
00:48:50,124 --> 00:48:52,958
As far as we could tell,
Max had been
950
00:48:53,041 --> 00:48:56,083
tortured by his mother.
951
00:48:56,166 --> 00:48:57,999
Dorothy:
Where would she hit you?
952
00:49:04,541 --> 00:49:06,541
She punched...
953
00:49:06,625 --> 00:49:07,875
she punched and she...
954
00:49:07,958 --> 00:49:10,541
She had big long nails,
and she used to break...
955
00:49:10,625 --> 00:49:13,708
-Dorothy: Really?
-She used to dig
them into your skin.
956
00:49:13,792 --> 00:49:15,958
Do you have any marks
where she hurt you?
957
00:49:16,041 --> 00:49:17,708
Do I have any marks
where she hurt me?
958
00:49:17,792 --> 00:49:19,291
I see marks here,
959
00:49:19,375 --> 00:49:22,208
-little bit I think here, yeah.
-Max: Yeah.
960
00:49:22,291 --> 00:49:25,083
-And also right here.
-Dorothy: Mm-hmm, yeah.
961
00:49:25,166 --> 00:49:26,917
Marks where I had
to kneel on glass.
962
00:49:26,999 --> 00:49:29,792
-Dorothy: What do
you mean, kneel on glass?
-I had broken some,
963
00:49:29,875 --> 00:49:31,500
and she said,
"Well, clean it up."
964
00:49:31,583 --> 00:49:35,083
And so, she pushed me
down on the floor, and I,
965
00:49:35,166 --> 00:49:36,875
you know, there was glass
on the floor, and I said,
966
00:49:36,958 --> 00:49:38,750
"Well, let me get up."
She said, "Clean it up.
967
00:49:38,833 --> 00:49:40,291
You broke it.
Clean it up," she said.
968
00:49:40,375 --> 00:49:43,166
-(slapping, growl)
-Dorothy: Stop it!
969
00:49:44,999 --> 00:49:48,249
-(gibberish)
-Dorothy: ...terrible things.
970
00:49:49,083 --> 00:49:50,583
(gibberish)
971
00:50:03,416 --> 00:50:05,083
(in haughty voice):
But you cannot see him?
972
00:50:05,166 --> 00:50:07,917
Why is that we can see him--
Can you see him?
973
00:50:07,999 --> 00:50:09,875
-Mm, no.
-He's there.
974
00:50:09,958 --> 00:50:11,833
-Who?
-You...
975
00:50:11,917 --> 00:50:14,249
-You cannot see him?
-Dorothy: There was
976
00:50:14,333 --> 00:50:17,625
a very strong, often cruel,
977
00:50:17,708 --> 00:50:19,124
part of him, Kalki,
978
00:50:19,208 --> 00:50:23,541
who was almost
god-like in the way
he viewed himself.
979
00:50:30,917 --> 00:50:32,249
Whatever I do is good.
980
00:50:33,291 --> 00:50:36,124
Dorothy:
981
00:50:38,041 --> 00:50:41,249
He was the one who
stabbed Max's lovers.
982
00:50:43,083 --> 00:50:44,375
It was the game.
983
00:50:44,458 --> 00:50:47,625
(gibberish)
984
00:50:49,625 --> 00:50:51,958
(mumbling)
985
00:50:52,041 --> 00:50:54,333
Dorothy:
And then there's Jabreel,
986
00:50:54,416 --> 00:50:56,875
and Jabreel was an old man.
987
00:50:56,958 --> 00:50:59,875
A Zen monk.
988
00:50:59,958 --> 00:51:02,833
(lightly):
You see? That is love there.
That is love.
989
00:51:02,917 --> 00:51:04,375
She would hold him sometimes...
990
00:51:04,458 --> 00:51:08,625
Dorothy:
He seemed to have developed
as a comforter for Max.
991
00:51:08,708 --> 00:51:12,124
-Max also talked
about a baby.
-(whining)
992
00:51:13,124 --> 00:51:15,041
(whining continues)
993
00:51:15,124 --> 00:51:16,917
Yeager:
He was a very
bright young man
994
00:51:16,999 --> 00:51:19,041
and had some insight
995
00:51:19,124 --> 00:51:21,208
into what was going on
in his head.
996
00:51:21,291 --> 00:51:24,583
So we would say to him,
"Max,
997
00:51:24,667 --> 00:51:27,291
"if a 12-year-old kid
had the same kinds
998
00:51:27,375 --> 00:51:29,249
"of switching that you have,
999
00:51:29,333 --> 00:51:31,667
what kinds of questions
would you ask him?"
1000
00:51:32,625 --> 00:51:34,500
I would ask them...
1001
00:51:35,291 --> 00:51:36,583
if they had a place...
1002
00:51:36,667 --> 00:51:38,875
-(water flowing)
-they can go
1003
00:51:38,958 --> 00:51:40,708
that nobody else can go to.
1004
00:51:40,792 --> 00:51:42,500
A place inside themselves
1005
00:51:42,583 --> 00:51:45,124
where nobody else
could go to.
1006
00:51:45,208 --> 00:51:48,333
-(birds chirping)
-That would seem like
that no one else is there.
1007
00:51:48,416 --> 00:51:51,333
And I would say,
"Is it a beach?
Is it trees?"
1008
00:51:51,416 --> 00:51:53,583
I would say, "What is it?
Where do you go?
1009
00:51:53,667 --> 00:51:55,458
"Where do you go when
1010
00:51:55,541 --> 00:51:58,041
you just feel like
going someplace else?"
1011
00:51:58,124 --> 00:52:00,625
♪ ♪
1012
00:52:00,708 --> 00:52:04,083
It's a very special thing to do,
and not many people can do that.
1013
00:52:04,166 --> 00:52:07,750
-Dorothy: So you'd
say it's very special?
-I'd say it's very special.
1014
00:52:07,833 --> 00:52:09,999
Yeager:
And then we would try
it out on the kids,
1015
00:52:10,083 --> 00:52:11,958
and he was spot on.
1016
00:52:12,041 --> 00:52:14,541
That's how bright
and insightful he was,
1017
00:52:14,625 --> 00:52:16,667
but he couldn't help himself.
1018
00:52:16,750 --> 00:52:19,083
-Dorothy: What games
are you playing?
-Hm.
1019
00:52:19,166 --> 00:52:20,792
Dorothy:
The last time
you played games,
1020
00:52:20,875 --> 00:52:23,875
-you got him into
a lot of trouble.
-Hm.
1021
00:52:23,958 --> 00:52:27,416
-Dorothy: What are you
doing, Kalki?
-Hm.
1022
00:52:27,500 --> 00:52:30,792
Don't pull that
"hm" on me.
1023
00:52:30,875 --> 00:52:33,583
-Hello, Kalki. Yeah,
I know you're there.
-I am here.
1024
00:52:33,667 --> 00:52:36,083
I know you're there,
and I know
most people don't
1025
00:52:36,166 --> 00:52:37,999
-talk to you straight.
-Hm.
1026
00:52:38,083 --> 00:52:41,333
But I am miffed.
I thought we had
an agreement.
1027
00:52:41,416 --> 00:52:43,041
You and Jabreel
had an agreement.
1028
00:52:43,124 --> 00:52:46,291
-I thought we did.
I thought we did!
-We did not.
1029
00:52:46,375 --> 00:52:47,917
I thought that went--
1030
00:52:47,999 --> 00:52:50,208
Do you speak any French?
1031
00:52:50,291 --> 00:52:52,500
You know ça va sans dire.
1032
00:52:52,583 --> 00:52:55,541
-It goes without saying.
-Saying. (laughs)
1033
00:52:56,999 --> 00:53:00,917
Maybe we clicked because
I didn't play favorites.
1034
00:53:00,999 --> 00:53:03,958
If you notice, I'm empathic
to every one of them.
1035
00:53:04,041 --> 00:53:06,541
Well, Kalki certainly
has a lot of strength.
1036
00:53:06,625 --> 00:53:08,375
(lightly):
Yes, he is very
strong, isn't he?
1037
00:53:08,458 --> 00:53:12,500
Dorothy:
You never badmouth,
especially the abuser.
1038
00:53:12,583 --> 00:53:15,792
That is-- that's an invitation
to murder.
1039
00:53:15,875 --> 00:53:18,958
-(ominous music)
-(thunder rumbling)
1040
00:53:19,041 --> 00:53:21,708
♪ ♪
1041
00:53:21,792 --> 00:53:24,999
One day,
I came into my office,
1042
00:53:25,083 --> 00:53:29,166
and my secretary
handed me one of these
telephone slips,
1043
00:53:29,249 --> 00:53:30,500
and it said,
1044
00:53:30,583 --> 00:53:33,958
"Mr. Scorsese's
office has called,
1045
00:53:34,041 --> 00:53:36,958
and would like
you to call back."
1046
00:53:37,041 --> 00:53:39,041
So I called back,
1047
00:53:39,124 --> 00:53:41,375
and an assistant
of his said,
1048
00:53:41,458 --> 00:53:48,249
"Mr. Scorsese has discovered
that you see murderers.
1049
00:53:48,333 --> 00:53:51,041
"Robert De Niro is going
to be in a remake
1050
00:53:51,124 --> 00:53:53,958
"of 'Cape Fear,'
and he would like
1051
00:53:54,041 --> 00:53:56,041
"to meet some murderers.
1052
00:53:56,124 --> 00:53:58,041
Can you arrange that?"
1053
00:53:58,124 --> 00:54:00,083
It was so funny.
I felt like,
1054
00:54:00,166 --> 00:54:03,500
would you say,
a casting director?
1055
00:54:03,583 --> 00:54:06,750
So I asked Max.
1056
00:54:06,833 --> 00:54:09,083
He really had attempted
to murder twice.
1057
00:54:09,166 --> 00:54:10,375
Oh yes,
I could talk to him.
1058
00:54:10,458 --> 00:54:12,541
Dorothy: Max said sure,
he would talk with him.
1059
00:54:12,625 --> 00:54:15,875
-I said, "Well,
how about Kalki?"
-(haughty): Yes.
1060
00:54:15,958 --> 00:54:20,291
-"And Jabreel?"
And Jabreel said...
-(lightly): Oh, yes.
1061
00:54:20,375 --> 00:54:23,249
Dorothy:
So we made an arrangement
for De Niro
1062
00:54:23,333 --> 00:54:25,958
to go into the prison ward.
1063
00:54:26,041 --> 00:54:29,166
At first,
Max seemed puzzled.
1064
00:54:29,249 --> 00:54:32,750
And I said, "Max,
you must know him.
1065
00:54:32,833 --> 00:54:34,917
You've seen 'Taxi Driver.'"
1066
00:54:34,999 --> 00:54:38,041
And he said,
"I've never seen 'Taxi Driver.'"
1067
00:54:38,124 --> 00:54:41,249
I said, "Max,
Mr. De Niro's going to make
1068
00:54:41,333 --> 00:54:43,667
"a movie out of a man
1069
00:54:43,750 --> 00:54:45,416
who has trouble
with his temper."
1070
00:54:45,500 --> 00:54:47,041
Oh! (grunts)
1071
00:54:47,124 --> 00:54:49,208
(Dorothy laughing)
1072
00:54:49,291 --> 00:54:51,541
And I said, "I know
1073
00:54:51,625 --> 00:54:53,458
"Kalki has had trouble
with his temper.
1074
00:54:53,541 --> 00:54:55,541
"I would like very much
1075
00:54:55,625 --> 00:54:58,500
for Mr. De Niro
to meet Kalki."
1076
00:54:58,583 --> 00:55:00,208
♪ ♪
1077
00:55:00,291 --> 00:55:05,583
And the next thing I know,
Max really metamorphoses
1078
00:55:05,667 --> 00:55:07,708
to this haughty--
1079
00:55:07,792 --> 00:55:09,792
The chin came up.
1080
00:55:09,875 --> 00:55:12,792
You know,
he really looks different.
1081
00:55:12,875 --> 00:55:16,124
The whole visage is,
you know, different.
1082
00:55:16,208 --> 00:55:17,625
The muscles.
1083
00:55:17,708 --> 00:55:20,458
I said, "Kalki,
this is Mr. De Niro.
1084
00:55:20,541 --> 00:55:23,124
Mr. De Niro,
this is Kalki."
1085
00:55:23,208 --> 00:55:24,625
And Kalki says,
1086
00:55:24,708 --> 00:55:28,667
"Oh, you were so
good in 'Taxi Driver'!"
1087
00:55:31,667 --> 00:55:33,833
Dorothy:
Tell me, what has happened
to your case since--
1088
00:55:33,917 --> 00:55:36,667
No, nothing's happened.
It will take a long time.
1089
00:55:36,750 --> 00:55:38,291
I do not care what happens.
1090
00:55:38,375 --> 00:55:40,291
-I wish they had
the death penalty.
-Oh!
1091
00:55:40,375 --> 00:55:42,833
I wish they had
the death penalty.
I would happily have it.
1092
00:55:42,917 --> 00:55:46,333
-Since wha--
Because when...
-Dorothy: Why?
1093
00:55:46,416 --> 00:55:48,833
(voice breaking):
I-I will tell you why.
Because...
1094
00:55:48,917 --> 00:55:52,166
when a dog goes mad,
you shoot it, don't you?
1095
00:55:52,249 --> 00:55:55,416
And a person's worth
more than a dog,
1096
00:55:55,500 --> 00:55:57,625
and if, and if...
1097
00:55:59,416 --> 00:56:01,500
if you were that kind to a dog,
1098
00:56:01,583 --> 00:56:04,083
why not be that kind
to a human being
1099
00:56:04,166 --> 00:56:06,291
and just shoot him or something?
1100
00:56:06,375 --> 00:56:10,166
Dorothy:
Max had some good lawyers
who cared about him,
1101
00:56:10,249 --> 00:56:13,792
and they asked me
if I would write
1102
00:56:13,875 --> 00:56:18,124
a note saying that he
was no longer dangerous
1103
00:56:18,208 --> 00:56:21,541
and that he should be
discharged from there,
1104
00:56:21,625 --> 00:56:22,917
and I said no.
1105
00:56:22,999 --> 00:56:27,999
He had twice,
in his altered states,
1106
00:56:28,083 --> 00:56:29,792
tried to kill.
1107
00:56:29,875 --> 00:56:32,708
And I had
no reason to believe
1108
00:56:32,792 --> 00:56:35,375
that he wouldn't
do it again.
1109
00:56:35,458 --> 00:56:38,458
And even though we had
a lovely relationship,
1110
00:56:38,541 --> 00:56:40,917
you know, I've seen
enough to know that
1111
00:56:40,999 --> 00:56:42,917
people can turn on a dime.
1112
00:56:44,083 --> 00:56:47,208
They were very,
very angry at me,
1113
00:56:47,291 --> 00:56:50,541
but they found another
psychiatrist who was willing
1114
00:56:50,625 --> 00:56:54,625
to write a note,
and he was discharged.
1115
00:56:56,708 --> 00:57:00,083
I think Max never
really forgave me.
1116
00:57:00,166 --> 00:57:02,166
(cars honking)
1117
00:57:02,249 --> 00:57:05,333
♪ ♪
1118
00:57:16,667 --> 00:57:19,792
(snow falling)
1119
00:57:22,333 --> 00:57:24,416
Where is Dad? Where is he?
1120
00:57:24,500 --> 00:57:26,500
-Gillian Lewis: Oh, there he is.
-Eric: Here's Dad.
1121
00:57:26,583 --> 00:57:29,124
-Dorothy: Is this Dad? Yay.
-Eric: Yeah.
1122
00:57:32,208 --> 00:57:34,750
Dorothy:
I like that Royal Army
Medical Corps, huh?
1123
00:57:34,833 --> 00:57:36,875
-Eric: It looks great.
-Yes.
1124
00:57:36,958 --> 00:57:38,583
-Gillian: Design is so nice.
-Beautifully done.
1125
00:57:38,667 --> 00:57:41,375
-Yeah.
-Eric: It says, "scholar,
editor, teacher."
1126
00:57:41,458 --> 00:57:44,750
-I forgot that we put that.
-Gillian: You left out,
you know,
1127
00:57:44,833 --> 00:57:47,124
-husband, father.
-Dorothy: Husband, father.
1128
00:57:47,208 --> 00:57:48,792
-Gillian: Cool dude.
-Eric: Funny guy.
1129
00:57:48,875 --> 00:57:51,166
Dorothy:
I bought four places.
1130
00:57:51,249 --> 00:57:53,999
So which-- now which one
of you wants to be where?
1131
00:57:54,083 --> 00:57:56,500
I wanna be there.
I think we have that.
1132
00:57:56,583 --> 00:57:57,999
Eric:
Yeah, you have to
be next to dad.
1133
00:57:58,083 --> 00:57:59,458
And then the one back there,
one back there.
1134
00:57:59,541 --> 00:58:02,124
-Eric: That works.
-Dorothy: Yeah. Okay.
1135
00:58:02,208 --> 00:58:04,750
-Gillian: This is
the weirdest conversation.
-(laughs)
1136
00:58:04,833 --> 00:58:07,917
♪ ♪
1137
00:58:09,041 --> 00:58:11,333
(projector clicking)
1138
00:58:11,416 --> 00:58:15,208
Dorothy:
I first met Mel in
medical school at Yale.
1139
00:58:16,625 --> 00:58:18,458
I was a student,
and he was
1140
00:58:18,541 --> 00:58:21,500
an assistant professor
in psychiatry.
1141
00:58:21,583 --> 00:58:25,792
I bumped into him in
the medical school library.
1142
00:58:25,875 --> 00:58:28,583
That night, I got a call.
1143
00:58:28,667 --> 00:58:30,541
He asked me out.
1144
00:58:30,625 --> 00:58:32,875
And I remember
sitting in my chair,
1145
00:58:32,958 --> 00:58:35,999
and it spun, and just
spinning around in it,
1146
00:58:36,083 --> 00:58:38,458
going, "Whee!"
1147
00:58:38,541 --> 00:58:43,083
I knew in a week I really,
really liked this person,
1148
00:58:43,166 --> 00:58:45,208
and I didn't forgive Mel
1149
00:58:45,291 --> 00:58:48,625
because it took him
two weeks to ask me
to marry him.
1150
00:58:53,583 --> 00:58:54,541
(baby crying)
1151
00:58:54,625 --> 00:58:57,416
You know,
he was a lot older than I.
1152
00:58:57,500 --> 00:59:00,500
And so, I spent
a fair amount of time
1153
00:59:00,583 --> 00:59:03,458
when he was going
off to meetings
and things like that,
1154
00:59:03,541 --> 00:59:05,750
I was back here.
1155
00:59:07,124 --> 00:59:09,625
Gillian:
When we were little,
Mom brought us
1156
00:59:09,708 --> 00:59:13,041
to our music lessons,
1157
00:59:13,124 --> 00:59:16,416
and we'd do art
projects with her.
1158
00:59:16,500 --> 00:59:19,541
Whereas my father,
I remember
1159
00:59:19,625 --> 00:59:21,208
climbing over him
and wrestling
1160
00:59:21,291 --> 00:59:23,958
in the living room,
or stuff like that.
1161
00:59:24,041 --> 00:59:27,541
They were two very
complementary forms
1162
00:59:27,625 --> 00:59:30,208
of bringing up a kid.
1163
00:59:30,291 --> 00:59:32,958
My father was
the very playful one...
1164
00:59:34,249 --> 00:59:38,416
and my mom was kinda
the inspirational one.
1165
00:59:38,500 --> 00:59:42,041
My career took off in a way
I hadn't planned it.
1166
00:59:42,124 --> 00:59:44,625
♪ ♪
1167
00:59:44,708 --> 00:59:48,166
My work on juveniles
condemned to death was cited
1168
00:59:48,249 --> 00:59:51,291
in several
Supreme Court decisions,
1169
00:59:51,375 --> 00:59:55,500
but success did
affect my family.
1170
00:59:55,583 --> 00:59:59,999
I made some teaching tapes
of Arthur Shawcross.
1171
01:00:00,083 --> 01:00:03,500
And some of the things
that he went through...
1172
01:00:03,583 --> 01:00:06,458
(childish):
She squeezed my thingy.
1173
01:00:06,541 --> 01:00:10,917
...were terribly
unsettling to my kids.
1174
01:00:10,999 --> 01:00:13,583
Now, they're kind
of interested in it.
1175
01:00:13,667 --> 01:00:15,500
(typing)
1176
01:00:17,792 --> 01:00:20,375
My mom does her writing by hand,
1177
01:00:20,458 --> 01:00:23,500
and then I type up
what she's given me.
1178
01:00:23,583 --> 01:00:27,249
I'm like a fast hunt-
and-peck-type typist,
1179
01:00:27,333 --> 01:00:29,249
so it could be worse.
1180
01:00:30,833 --> 01:00:33,041
(printing)
1181
01:00:33,124 --> 01:00:35,333
-(footsteps)
-Dorothy: Hey, Eric?
1182
01:00:35,416 --> 01:00:37,249
-Eric: Hey, Mom!
-Dorothy: Yeah?
1183
01:00:37,333 --> 01:00:40,166
-Eric: I'm done.
-That's beautiful.
1184
01:00:40,249 --> 01:00:41,625
Thanks, Mom,
but read it over
1185
01:00:41,708 --> 01:00:43,708
because I probably
made a few mistakes.
1186
01:00:43,792 --> 01:00:45,333
-Dorothy: Okay.
-I love you.
1187
01:00:45,416 --> 01:00:46,625
I love you.
1188
01:00:46,708 --> 01:00:48,375
Oh, thank you so much.
1189
01:00:48,458 --> 01:00:51,875
-You're so welcome.
I'll be back soon.
-Yeah, okay.
1190
01:00:56,583 --> 01:00:59,333
-Alright, I love you, Ma.
-I love you.
1191
01:00:59,416 --> 01:01:01,249
-Uber carefully!
-I will.
1192
01:01:01,333 --> 01:01:03,249
(door shuts)
1193
01:01:03,333 --> 01:01:04,958
Woman 1: I will never
forget that moment,
1194
01:01:05,041 --> 01:01:07,166
-or never forget that day.
-(glass breaking)
1195
01:01:07,249 --> 01:01:09,333
Woman 2:
The loss, the tragedy.
1196
01:01:09,416 --> 01:01:12,583
♪ ♪
1197
01:01:14,958 --> 01:01:18,083
Woman 3:
1198
01:01:19,500 --> 01:01:21,792
Woman 4:
The guy oughta
just be killed.
1199
01:01:26,416 --> 01:01:29,416
Dorothy:
Johnny Frank Garrett
had climbed into
1200
01:01:29,500 --> 01:01:31,333
the window of a convent,
1201
01:01:31,416 --> 01:01:34,917
and he had gotten into
the room of a nun.
1202
01:01:34,999 --> 01:01:36,833
He left all the
fingerprints,
1203
01:01:36,917 --> 01:01:38,416
he left the knives.
1204
01:01:38,500 --> 01:01:41,124
This was not a genius
we were dealing with.
1205
01:01:41,208 --> 01:01:45,500
(laughs) And an arch-criminal?
Uh-uh.
1206
01:01:45,583 --> 01:01:48,249
Narrator:
It was not always easy to
understand Johnny Garrett.
1207
01:01:48,333 --> 01:01:50,333
He was forever changing.
1208
01:01:50,416 --> 01:01:52,291
Shortly after confessing,
1209
01:01:52,375 --> 01:01:55,249
he insisted that
he had nothing to do
with the murder.
1210
01:01:55,333 --> 01:01:58,041
Hence, he refused to
sign the confession
1211
01:01:58,124 --> 01:02:00,041
he had just provided.
1212
01:02:00,124 --> 01:02:03,750
To the trial court, he was
a liar, pure and simple.
1213
01:02:05,166 --> 01:02:06,875
Johnny Frank Garrett,
1214
01:02:06,958 --> 01:02:09,249
thief, rapist,
murderer, liar,
1215
01:02:09,333 --> 01:02:12,583
was not crazy.
He was bad.
1216
01:02:12,667 --> 01:02:14,917
Johnny was dispatched to
death row in Huntsville
1217
01:02:14,999 --> 01:02:16,541
to await execution.
1218
01:02:16,625 --> 01:02:18,999
♪ ♪
1219
01:02:19,083 --> 01:02:21,041
We were doing a study
1220
01:02:21,124 --> 01:02:25,375
of 14 juveniles
under the age of 18
1221
01:02:25,458 --> 01:02:27,124
who were sentenced to death.
1222
01:02:28,291 --> 01:02:31,041
Johnny related in
a bizarre fashion,
1223
01:02:31,124 --> 01:02:33,541
and he talked to voices.
1224
01:02:33,625 --> 01:02:36,333
He clearly was
hallucinating.
1225
01:02:38,208 --> 01:02:40,708
We wrote reports
on everybody we saw
1226
01:02:40,792 --> 01:02:41,875
and sent them to lawyers,
1227
01:02:41,958 --> 01:02:44,708
but this one,
I was more detailed about
1228
01:02:44,792 --> 01:02:47,500
because at that point,
he was the sickest
1229
01:02:47,583 --> 01:02:50,458
of the death row people
I had ever seen.
1230
01:02:50,541 --> 01:02:54,208
I'd never seen somebody
so flamboyantly psychotic.
1231
01:02:55,667 --> 01:02:59,333
I diagnosed schizophrenia
with brain damage
1232
01:02:59,416 --> 01:03:02,124
and a history of seizures.
1233
01:03:03,333 --> 01:03:06,249
But then, I saw a video.
1234
01:03:06,333 --> 01:03:08,416
"48 Hours" interviewed him.
1235
01:03:08,500 --> 01:03:10,124
You're saying you didn't
commit the murder?
1236
01:03:10,208 --> 01:03:12,583
No, I didn't. I didn't
commit neither one of 'em,
1237
01:03:12,667 --> 01:03:14,416
rape or murder.
1238
01:03:14,500 --> 01:03:17,333
The hell would I go and do
somethin' like that for?
1239
01:03:17,416 --> 01:03:19,166
Reporter:
Johnny Garrett
claims he talks
1240
01:03:19,249 --> 01:03:20,375
to his dead
Aunt Barbara...
1241
01:03:20,458 --> 01:03:23,083
Sometimes she'll answer,
sometimes she won't.
1242
01:03:23,166 --> 01:03:25,958
Reporter:
...who he says often appears
in his death row cell.
1243
01:03:26,041 --> 01:03:28,833
-What does she tell you?
-That they're not gonna kill me.
1244
01:03:28,917 --> 01:03:31,166
That they can't kill me.
1245
01:03:31,249 --> 01:03:34,291
Dorothy:
Immediately, I realized
he's a multiple.
1246
01:03:34,375 --> 01:03:37,083
That's all she'll say
is they cannot kill me.
1247
01:03:37,166 --> 01:03:40,625
Dorothy:
Years later,
I was reading the "Times."
1248
01:03:40,708 --> 01:03:42,958
"Pope asks for clemency
1249
01:03:43,041 --> 01:03:46,166
for death row inmate
Johnny Frank Garrett."
1250
01:03:46,249 --> 01:03:48,249
And I couldn't believe it.
1251
01:03:48,333 --> 01:03:50,124
(church bell ringing)
1252
01:03:50,208 --> 01:03:52,416
Narrator:
Ann Richards,
the governor of Texas,
1253
01:03:52,500 --> 01:03:54,249
found herself in a quandary.
1254
01:03:54,333 --> 01:03:56,708
According to the material
she had read,
1255
01:03:56,792 --> 01:03:59,958
the condemned was
obviously demented.
1256
01:04:00,041 --> 01:04:02,500
Texas was about to
execute a crazy man
1257
01:04:02,583 --> 01:04:05,249
for an act committed
as a crazy boy.
1258
01:04:05,333 --> 01:04:08,041
If there was ever a case
deserving of clemency,
1259
01:04:08,124 --> 01:04:09,875
this was it.
1260
01:04:09,958 --> 01:04:13,208
On the other hand, Texas was
still the no-nonsense state.
1261
01:04:13,291 --> 01:04:14,500
♪ ♪
1262
01:04:14,583 --> 01:04:17,166
In fact, Texas was running
neck-and-neck with Florida
1263
01:04:17,249 --> 01:04:18,917
for the distinction
of executing
1264
01:04:18,999 --> 01:04:20,625
the greatest
number of criminals
1265
01:04:20,708 --> 01:04:23,541
since the death penalty
was re-instituted
1266
01:04:23,625 --> 01:04:25,750
in 1976.
1267
01:04:26,750 --> 01:04:28,166
No governor of Texas
1268
01:04:28,249 --> 01:04:29,583
who granted clemency
outright
1269
01:04:29,667 --> 01:04:31,041
could rely on reelection.
1270
01:04:33,750 --> 01:04:37,500
The Texas governor would
convene a clemency board.
1271
01:04:37,583 --> 01:04:39,792
It would act as
another jury.
1272
01:04:39,875 --> 01:04:41,625
If, after pondering
all the evidence,
1273
01:04:41,708 --> 01:04:44,208
it voted to spare
the prisoner,
1274
01:04:44,291 --> 01:04:45,875
so be it.
1275
01:04:45,958 --> 01:04:47,124
Nobody could then accuse
1276
01:04:47,208 --> 01:04:50,875
this governor of
being soft on crime.
1277
01:04:50,958 --> 01:04:54,958
Who was the political pawn
whose life hung
in the balance?
1278
01:04:55,041 --> 01:04:57,249
Johnny Frank Garrett.
1279
01:04:58,625 --> 01:05:01,208
He was coming up for
a clemency trial.
1280
01:05:01,291 --> 01:05:03,208
Dorothy:
See, you can see
a light in here,
1281
01:05:03,291 --> 01:05:05,541
and you can see if it's playing.
1282
01:05:05,625 --> 01:05:08,041
So I found out
who his lawyer was,
1283
01:05:08,124 --> 01:05:10,875
and called her, and I said,
1284
01:05:10,958 --> 01:05:13,333
"I goofed. I made a mistake.
1285
01:05:13,416 --> 01:05:16,041
"I will come down to Texas,
1286
01:05:16,124 --> 01:05:17,833
no fee, no charge, nothing."
1287
01:05:17,917 --> 01:05:22,041
It's pretty clear
that he dissociates.
1288
01:05:22,124 --> 01:05:25,500
He had a persona,
a violent one,
Aaron Shockman.
1289
01:05:25,583 --> 01:05:28,124
Dorothy:
1290
01:05:29,333 --> 01:05:30,999
(low whistle)
1291
01:05:33,208 --> 01:05:35,208
On about--
I guess I had to be
1292
01:05:35,291 --> 01:05:37,166
in fifth grade
'cause I met him--
1293
01:05:37,249 --> 01:05:39,917
Well, didn't meet him. I...
1294
01:05:39,999 --> 01:05:42,583
-Dorothy: How did you
meet him first?
-I got beat up.
1295
01:05:42,667 --> 01:05:44,833
And what happened
when you got beat up?
1296
01:05:44,917 --> 01:05:48,166
-I became Aaron Shockman.
-At that time?
1297
01:05:48,917 --> 01:05:51,083
And what did you do?
1298
01:05:51,166 --> 01:05:53,083
-Well, he beat them up.
-Really?
1299
01:05:53,166 --> 01:05:55,667
He's older than me...
1300
01:05:55,750 --> 01:05:57,625
-mentally.
-He's older than you?
1301
01:05:57,708 --> 01:06:00,875
-Intellectually.
-Mm-hmm.
1302
01:06:00,958 --> 01:06:04,124
-He's smarter than I am.
-Mm-hmm.
1303
01:06:04,208 --> 01:06:07,375
Dorothy:
He would pause between
what he was telling me,
1304
01:06:07,458 --> 01:06:09,833
and his eyes would
kind of go up,
1305
01:06:09,917 --> 01:06:11,875
and you see that often
1306
01:06:11,958 --> 01:06:14,625
with people who are
talking to someone
1307
01:06:14,708 --> 01:06:15,875
in their head.
1308
01:06:15,958 --> 01:06:17,375
Dorothy:
1309
01:06:23,416 --> 01:06:24,583
Dorothy: That's right.
1310
01:06:28,541 --> 01:06:29,958
Dorothy: Yeah.
1311
01:06:30,041 --> 01:06:31,500
Johnny:
1312
01:06:31,583 --> 01:06:33,041
♪ ♪
1313
01:06:35,166 --> 01:06:36,708
Dorothy:
He needed someone to take pain.
1314
01:06:42,541 --> 01:06:43,875
Dorothy:
1315
01:06:47,458 --> 01:06:48,416
Dorothy:
1316
01:06:49,500 --> 01:06:50,958
Dorothy:
1317
01:06:52,583 --> 01:06:53,583
Dorothy: Yes?
1318
01:06:55,333 --> 01:06:57,208
Dorothy: Yes? Yes?
1319
01:06:58,833 --> 01:07:01,416
Dorothy:
1320
01:07:05,875 --> 01:07:06,958
(indistinct)
1321
01:07:11,750 --> 01:07:14,625
Narrator:
I'd once heard a lecture
by an FBI agent.
1322
01:07:14,708 --> 01:07:17,833
He talked about how
children used in pornography
1323
01:07:17,917 --> 01:07:20,541
feared for the rest of their
lives that their identities
1324
01:07:20,625 --> 01:07:23,166
and the perverted acts they
were once forced to perform
1325
01:07:23,249 --> 01:07:25,708
will someday come to light.
1326
01:07:25,792 --> 01:07:28,708
Johnny was more terrified
of being recognized
1327
01:07:28,792 --> 01:07:31,625
in the pornographic films
he had made as a child
1328
01:07:31,708 --> 01:07:34,333
than he was of his
impending execution.
1329
01:07:36,625 --> 01:07:38,291
Dorothy: Mm-hmm.
1330
01:07:41,999 --> 01:07:43,875
Aaron was talking with me.
1331
01:07:43,958 --> 01:07:46,291
Again, Johnny's eyes
1332
01:07:46,375 --> 01:07:47,708
kinda looked up,
1333
01:07:47,792 --> 01:07:50,416
and I said,
"What's happening?"
1334
01:07:50,500 --> 01:07:52,249
Dorothy:
Is someone talking to you now?
1335
01:07:52,333 --> 01:07:54,291
Who's talking to you, Aaron?
1336
01:07:54,375 --> 01:07:56,750
-What's go--
What's happening?
-That bitch.
1337
01:07:56,833 --> 01:07:58,708
Dorothy:
Aaron said,
"That bitch Barbara,
1338
01:07:58,792 --> 01:08:00,291
she wants to get rid of me."
1339
01:08:00,375 --> 01:08:03,875
-Gibney: Aunt Barbara?
-Yeah. There was Aunt Barbara.
1340
01:08:03,958 --> 01:08:06,333
She was another
alter of Johnny's,
1341
01:08:06,416 --> 01:08:08,166
and she was near-sighted.
1342
01:08:08,249 --> 01:08:10,583
-I can't see you.
-Dorothy: What?
1343
01:08:10,667 --> 01:08:12,333
I can't see you.
1344
01:08:12,416 --> 01:08:15,249
-Dorothy: What do you mean,
you can't see me?
-You're blurred.
1345
01:08:15,333 --> 01:08:19,625
-Dorothy: And what's your name?
-Barbara.
1346
01:08:19,708 --> 01:08:21,750
Narrator:
A condemned person
must understand
1347
01:08:21,833 --> 01:08:25,249
the nature of the crime for
which he is being executed.
1348
01:08:25,333 --> 01:08:27,249
He must also
understand the fact
1349
01:08:27,333 --> 01:08:29,458
that he is about
to die for it.
1350
01:08:29,541 --> 01:08:33,375
In Johnny's case,
Aunt Barbara
had promised repeatedly
1351
01:08:33,458 --> 01:08:35,416
that Johnny would not die.
1352
01:08:35,500 --> 01:08:38,875
I'm not gonna let
that happen to him.
1353
01:08:38,958 --> 01:08:41,124
-Dorothy: What do you mean?
-I'm gonna stop it.
1354
01:08:41,208 --> 01:08:43,375
Dorothy:
How could you do that?
1355
01:08:43,458 --> 01:08:45,667
They will kill me, not him.
1356
01:08:46,750 --> 01:08:49,625
Dorothy:
Really? They would kill you,
1357
01:08:49,708 --> 01:08:51,667
and then what would
happen with him?
1358
01:08:51,750 --> 01:08:53,917
He would still be alive.
1359
01:08:56,291 --> 01:08:59,375
♪ ♪
1360
01:09:00,541 --> 01:09:03,333
Dorothy:
I testified the
following day.
1361
01:09:03,416 --> 01:09:05,041
We had reams of data
1362
01:09:05,124 --> 01:09:08,458
about his intelligence,
his mental condition.
1363
01:09:08,541 --> 01:09:12,291
This is how you create
a psychotic individual.
1364
01:09:12,375 --> 01:09:14,416
And we had clips
1365
01:09:14,500 --> 01:09:16,667
of him in some of
these states.
1366
01:09:16,750 --> 01:09:19,208
When he doesn't
want to remember...
1367
01:09:20,208 --> 01:09:21,958
he gives me the memories.
1368
01:09:22,041 --> 01:09:26,041
Dorothy:
But the clemency board
didn't give a damn.
1369
01:09:26,124 --> 01:09:28,750
Reporter:
Board members came
out to vote 17-to-1
1370
01:09:28,833 --> 01:09:30,708
to carry out the execution.
1371
01:09:30,792 --> 01:09:32,208
Garrett's only real hope now
1372
01:09:32,291 --> 01:09:34,333
is a personal pardon
from the governor.
1373
01:09:34,416 --> 01:09:37,792
That's unlikely,
and he faces death
by lethal injection...
1374
01:09:39,249 --> 01:09:40,792
Dorothy: Yeah.
1375
01:09:46,083 --> 01:09:47,583
Dorothy: Yeah.
1376
01:09:50,583 --> 01:09:51,458
(door slams)
1377
01:09:51,541 --> 01:09:53,375
Narrator:
To no one's surprise,
1378
01:09:53,458 --> 01:09:55,750
Aunt Barbara's plan
did not come off,
1379
01:09:55,833 --> 01:09:58,917
and the poison flowed
into Johnny's veins.
1380
01:09:58,999 --> 01:10:01,999
Witness accounts of the
execution lead me to believe
1381
01:10:02,083 --> 01:10:04,166
that before the poison
was injected,
1382
01:10:04,249 --> 01:10:07,375
it was Aaron, someone
far tougher than Johnny,
1383
01:10:07,458 --> 01:10:10,958
who came to help him
through his final ordeal.
1384
01:10:11,041 --> 01:10:13,041
Dorothy:
His last words were
something like,
1385
01:10:13,124 --> 01:10:14,958
"I'm sorry to my mother,
1386
01:10:15,041 --> 01:10:17,958
"sorry to the family
of the nun,
1387
01:10:18,041 --> 01:10:20,999
and the rest of you can
go fuck yourselves."
1388
01:10:21,083 --> 01:10:22,625
And I said, "Way to go."
1389
01:10:22,708 --> 01:10:24,541
Crowd (singing):
♪ Na-na, na, na! ♪
1390
01:10:24,625 --> 01:10:26,625
♪ Hey, hey, hey ♪
1391
01:10:26,708 --> 01:10:28,166
♪ Goodbye ♪
1392
01:10:28,249 --> 01:10:30,208
Reporter:
To this group of mostly
college students,
1393
01:10:30,291 --> 01:10:31,792
Johnny Frank Garrett
represented
1394
01:10:31,875 --> 01:10:33,792
all that's wrong
with our legal system.
1395
01:10:33,875 --> 01:10:35,166
With chants and candles,
1396
01:10:35,249 --> 01:10:37,833
they applauded Garrett's
death by lethal injection,
1397
01:10:37,917 --> 01:10:39,999
saying the punishment
must fit the crime.
1398
01:10:40,083 --> 01:10:41,917
Crowd (chanting):
Texas, you know!
1399
01:10:41,999 --> 01:10:43,541
Death row has got to go!
1400
01:10:43,625 --> 01:10:45,166
Reporter:
On the same side
of the street,
1401
01:10:45,249 --> 01:10:46,375
but with an opposite view,
1402
01:10:46,458 --> 01:10:48,375
were members of
Amnesty International.
1403
01:10:48,458 --> 01:10:49,958
The human rights group argue
1404
01:10:50,041 --> 01:10:52,750
that by executing
a mentally unstable convict,
1405
01:10:52,833 --> 01:10:55,124
a greater crime
was committed.
1406
01:10:55,208 --> 01:10:56,583
These hardened criminals
1407
01:10:56,667 --> 01:11:00,124
will never again murder,
rape, or deal drugs.
1408
01:11:00,208 --> 01:11:02,166
As governor,
I made sure they received
1409
01:11:02,249 --> 01:11:04,375
the ultimate punishment, death.
1410
01:11:04,458 --> 01:11:06,375
And Texas is a safer
place for it.
1411
01:11:06,458 --> 01:11:08,583
Yeager:
Back when we were doing
a lot of this work,
1412
01:11:08,667 --> 01:11:12,249
the tenor of our culture
at that time was really
1413
01:11:12,333 --> 01:11:14,750
crime and punishment,
and not rehabilitation.
1414
01:11:14,833 --> 01:11:17,249
They are not just
gangs of kids anymore.
1415
01:11:17,333 --> 01:11:21,124
They are often the kinds of kids
that are called super predators.
1416
01:11:21,208 --> 01:11:23,166
No conscience, no empathy.
1417
01:11:23,249 --> 01:11:25,083
So I don't wanna ask
1418
01:11:25,166 --> 01:11:27,124
what made them do this.
1419
01:11:27,208 --> 01:11:29,999
They must be taken
off the street.
1420
01:11:30,083 --> 01:11:31,958
Commercial:
She's the only Democrat
for governor
1421
01:11:32,041 --> 01:11:33,583
for the death penalty.
1422
01:11:33,667 --> 01:11:35,458
She's Dianne Feinstein.
1423
01:11:35,541 --> 01:11:37,667
When Dorothy and I first
started working together,
1424
01:11:37,750 --> 01:11:40,375
and we were seeing our
juveniles that were growing up,
1425
01:11:40,458 --> 01:11:42,083
so these were kids that
she had seen at 14.
1426
01:11:42,166 --> 01:11:44,041
I saw them when they
were in their 20s.
1427
01:11:44,124 --> 01:11:45,875
Man:
Picture of a bird with a long...
1428
01:11:45,958 --> 01:11:47,708
Yeager:
And, initially,
1429
01:11:47,792 --> 01:11:50,875
the state prisons had
a rehabilitative model.
1430
01:11:50,958 --> 01:11:54,375
So they were teaching
people how to read, write,
1431
01:11:54,458 --> 01:11:57,541
balance a checkbook,
get a job, write a resume.
1432
01:11:57,625 --> 01:11:59,625
And then as we were
getting more and more
1433
01:11:59,708 --> 01:12:02,917
into the work we were doing,
the culture was changing
1434
01:12:02,999 --> 01:12:05,458
and the politicians
were getting the message
1435
01:12:05,541 --> 01:12:08,708
that crime and punishment
is what's important.
1436
01:12:08,792 --> 01:12:10,416
We don't want to rehabilitate.
1437
01:12:10,500 --> 01:12:12,500
It's too expensive,
and who cares anyway?
1438
01:12:12,583 --> 01:12:14,875
If you come into our state
1439
01:12:14,958 --> 01:12:16,833
and you kill
one of our children,
1440
01:12:16,917 --> 01:12:18,750
you kill a police officer,
1441
01:12:18,833 --> 01:12:20,500
you're involved
with another crime
1442
01:12:20,583 --> 01:12:22,833
and you kill
one of our citizens,
1443
01:12:22,917 --> 01:12:25,833
you will face
the ultimate justice
1444
01:12:25,917 --> 01:12:29,416
in the state of Texas, and that
is you will be executed.
1445
01:12:29,500 --> 01:12:31,583
-Moderator:
What do you make of--
-(applause)
1446
01:12:31,667 --> 01:12:34,500
Burr:
The rationales for
the death penalty
1447
01:12:34,583 --> 01:12:37,999
have always been
retribution and deterrence.
1448
01:12:38,083 --> 01:12:41,833
Keeping other people from
engaging in the same behavior.
1449
01:12:41,917 --> 01:12:44,999
And all the studies,
social science studies,
have shown that
1450
01:12:45,083 --> 01:12:47,708
there's no deterrent effect
from executions.
1451
01:12:47,792 --> 01:12:52,333
In fact,
executions sort of bring
1452
01:12:52,416 --> 01:12:55,500
the act of killing into, uh,
1453
01:12:55,583 --> 01:12:58,458
the mainstream
as acceptable.
1454
01:12:58,541 --> 01:13:00,500
In states where
executions have gone up,
1455
01:13:00,583 --> 01:13:03,708
homicide rates
have often gone up.
1456
01:13:03,792 --> 01:13:05,625
Dorothy:
The legal system
at this point
1457
01:13:05,708 --> 01:13:10,208
is most interested in
incapacitating these people,
1458
01:13:10,291 --> 01:13:13,249
and you can't really
blame them for that.
1459
01:13:13,333 --> 01:13:16,083
Their interest is in
the public safety.
1460
01:13:16,166 --> 01:13:18,500
But, if you have
that and only that,
1461
01:13:18,583 --> 01:13:22,083
and you don't try to figure
out what it is that creates
1462
01:13:22,166 --> 01:13:23,541
these very dangerous people,
1463
01:13:23,625 --> 01:13:26,458
then you just run
the risk of making
1464
01:13:26,541 --> 01:13:29,833
more and more
and more prisons,
and never preventing.
1465
01:13:29,917 --> 01:13:32,541
♪ ♪
1466
01:13:32,625 --> 01:13:34,416
Narrator:
Ever since 1976,
1467
01:13:34,500 --> 01:13:37,291
juries have been obliged
to consider the mitigating
1468
01:13:37,375 --> 01:13:40,625
as well as the aggravating
circumstances of a murder.
1469
01:13:40,708 --> 01:13:42,875
Aggravating
circumstances focus,
1470
01:13:42,958 --> 01:13:46,416
for the most part,
on the grotesqueness
of the crimes.
1471
01:13:46,500 --> 01:13:50,083
Was the victim tortured
or raped or mutilated?
1472
01:13:50,166 --> 01:13:53,124
Was there more
than one victim?
1473
01:13:53,208 --> 01:13:55,291
Then there are
the mitigating
circumstances.
1474
01:13:55,375 --> 01:13:58,500
These often focus
on the defendant's
abusive childhood
1475
01:13:58,583 --> 01:14:01,375
and on the issues
of mental health.
1476
01:14:01,458 --> 01:14:03,999
Herein lies
the contradiction.
1477
01:14:04,083 --> 01:14:05,750
The gruesomeness
of the murder
1478
01:14:05,833 --> 01:14:07,958
is directly proportional
1479
01:14:08,041 --> 01:14:09,541
to the craziness
of the murderer.
1480
01:14:11,500 --> 01:14:14,291
Now, ask a jury to wrestle
with that equation
1481
01:14:14,375 --> 01:14:19,083
and come up with an answer.
It can't be done.
1482
01:14:19,166 --> 01:14:23,416
Burr:
The Supreme Court has always
used that word "compassion"
1483
01:14:23,500 --> 01:14:27,625
in describing what's
important about mitigation.
1484
01:14:27,708 --> 01:14:29,833
That it's something that allows
1485
01:14:29,917 --> 01:14:33,375
a compassionate impulse
to work in jurors.
1486
01:14:33,458 --> 01:14:35,833
My hope, and others' hope,
1487
01:14:35,917 --> 01:14:37,792
in our community
was that it would
1488
01:14:37,875 --> 01:14:39,458
expand to...
1489
01:14:39,541 --> 01:14:41,792
a view that serious
mental illness
1490
01:14:41,875 --> 01:14:43,708
would exempt people from
1491
01:14:43,792 --> 01:14:45,999
even being sentenced
to death to start with.
1492
01:14:46,083 --> 01:14:48,124
It hasn't,
hasn't moved that direction.
1493
01:14:48,208 --> 01:14:50,208
Are the courts becoming
more receptive?
1494
01:14:50,291 --> 01:14:52,917
Are juries becoming
more receptive to this?
1495
01:14:52,999 --> 01:14:54,416
-Dorothy: No.
-No.
1496
01:14:54,500 --> 01:14:56,375
Sawyer:
This is Yale psychiatrist
Dorothy Lewis
1497
01:14:56,458 --> 01:15:00,625
and her partner,
neurologist Jonathan Pincus
of Georgetown University.
1498
01:15:00,708 --> 01:15:03,917
They're trying to get courts
to give Multiple Personality
1499
01:15:03,999 --> 01:15:05,999
different treatment
under the law.
1500
01:15:06,083 --> 01:15:08,667
Which brings us
to David Wilson,
1501
01:15:08,750 --> 01:15:10,750
convicted of
murdering a stranger
1502
01:15:10,833 --> 01:15:12,458
who stopped to help
when he thought
1503
01:15:12,541 --> 01:15:14,667
Wilson's car was broken
down on the highway...
1504
01:15:14,750 --> 01:15:16,958
Man 1:
Was shot point-blank with
a 12-gauge shotgun...
1505
01:15:17,041 --> 01:15:18,583
Man 2:
...wallet still
in the glove box.
1506
01:15:18,667 --> 01:15:20,958
-A savage act...
-Man 3: What can you
say after something
1507
01:15:21,041 --> 01:15:22,416
so shocking happens?
1508
01:15:22,500 --> 01:15:23,958
♪ ♪
1509
01:15:24,041 --> 01:15:25,708
Dorothy:
David went into
1510
01:15:25,792 --> 01:15:27,917
some kind of state,
1511
01:15:27,999 --> 01:15:29,833
and he mistook
1512
01:15:29,917 --> 01:15:31,999
the guy who'd
stopped to help him
1513
01:15:32,083 --> 01:15:35,500
for somebody dangerous,
somebody in his life,
1514
01:15:35,583 --> 01:15:38,625
-and shot him
and killed him.
-(gunshot)
1515
01:15:38,708 --> 01:15:42,083
David: Wilson:
Personally, I remember
being in, in the car,
1516
01:15:42,166 --> 01:15:45,166
-but in the backseat
sleeping.
-Dorothy: Okay.
1517
01:15:45,249 --> 01:15:47,375
Wilson:
I didn't know
anybody got killed.
1518
01:15:47,458 --> 01:15:49,583
(video static)
1519
01:15:52,875 --> 01:15:54,541
-Dorothy: Is it working?
-Man: Mm-hmm.
1520
01:15:54,625 --> 01:15:56,541
Dorothy:
I went and examined him
1521
01:15:56,625 --> 01:15:59,625
after he was found guilty
and sentenced to death.
1522
01:16:00,625 --> 01:16:02,541
I was quite startled
1523
01:16:02,625 --> 01:16:05,124
when I saw he had scars
1524
01:16:05,208 --> 01:16:08,792
all over his chest
and all over his back,
1525
01:16:08,875 --> 01:16:11,583
and there was a burn scar.
1526
01:16:12,958 --> 01:16:14,208
Wilson:
1527
01:16:14,291 --> 01:16:15,249
Dorothy:
1528
01:16:17,667 --> 01:16:18,792
Dorothy:
1529
01:16:29,208 --> 01:16:32,166
Dorothy:
He had an alter named Juan.
1530
01:16:32,249 --> 01:16:34,667
Man:
1531
01:16:37,500 --> 01:16:38,667
Man: Juan?
1532
01:16:42,958 --> 01:16:44,917
Man: Lee?
1533
01:16:44,999 --> 01:16:47,249
Dorothy:
And then he had
another alter.
1534
01:16:47,333 --> 01:16:49,625
I think there were
three of them.
1535
01:16:51,583 --> 01:16:52,667
Man:
1536
01:16:59,333 --> 01:17:01,999
-Man:
-Dorothy:
1537
01:17:03,875 --> 01:17:06,541
Dorothy:
1538
01:17:08,750 --> 01:17:10,541
Dorothy:
1539
01:17:12,416 --> 01:17:13,875
Dorothy:
1540
01:17:15,625 --> 01:17:16,583
Dorothy: I do.
1541
01:17:17,166 --> 01:17:18,833
Dorothy:
1542
01:17:28,667 --> 01:17:31,416
Dorothy:
David's father used
to hang David up
1543
01:17:31,500 --> 01:17:35,375
by his stomach,
with his trousers off.
1544
01:17:44,375 --> 01:17:45,541
Dorothy: Yeah?
1545
01:18:06,833 --> 01:18:10,083
-Dorothy: You...
-(heavy breathing)
1546
01:18:23,249 --> 01:18:25,416
(sniffling)
1547
01:18:28,708 --> 01:18:30,291
Dorothy:
1548
01:18:36,083 --> 01:18:37,458
Dorothy:
1549
01:18:39,291 --> 01:18:40,458
(sniffles)
1550
01:18:44,333 --> 01:18:46,333
Dorothy:
1551
01:18:46,416 --> 01:18:48,124
Dorothy: You don't remember...
1552
01:18:49,416 --> 01:18:53,541
What is, to you,
the most telling thing
1553
01:18:53,625 --> 01:18:54,958
that convinces you?
1554
01:18:55,041 --> 01:18:57,291
-It's a constellation
of things--
-And you've documented
1555
01:18:57,375 --> 01:19:00,041
-this independently?
Not just his word?
-Oh, yes.
1556
01:19:00,124 --> 01:19:01,667
No. Absolutely.
1557
01:19:01,750 --> 01:19:03,458
Because again, people
sitting at home would say
1558
01:19:03,541 --> 01:19:05,208
he's got a lot to gain here.
1559
01:19:05,291 --> 01:19:07,917
-Well here, you know...
-What? What does
he have to gain?
1560
01:19:07,999 --> 01:19:11,541
-Getting hospitalized
instead of jailed.
-Dorothy: He doesn't want that.
1561
01:19:11,625 --> 01:19:13,875
I had a different
impression from yours,
1562
01:19:13,958 --> 01:19:16,291
which was that he
really did not want us
1563
01:19:16,375 --> 01:19:17,750
to see these switches.
1564
01:19:17,833 --> 01:19:20,999
And indeed,
he doesn't really
believe that they occur.
1565
01:19:23,958 --> 01:19:25,667
Dorothy:
David touched me.
1566
01:19:25,750 --> 01:19:30,750
There's something about him
that was so vulnerable and, uh,
1567
01:19:30,833 --> 01:19:34,541
and so innocent.
There was a part that was...
1568
01:19:34,625 --> 01:19:37,083
♪ ♪
1569
01:19:37,166 --> 01:19:40,625
I got called to
testify at the appeal.
1570
01:19:41,333 --> 01:19:44,249
And David was there.
1571
01:19:44,333 --> 01:19:48,750
And I was explaining
his dissociative states,
1572
01:19:48,833 --> 01:19:52,917
and I stopped myself,
and I said, "Your Honor,
1573
01:19:52,999 --> 01:19:55,041
"may I interrupt
for a moment?
1574
01:19:55,124 --> 01:19:58,291
"Because David is
not here right now,
1575
01:19:58,375 --> 01:20:01,041
but Juan has come."
1576
01:20:01,875 --> 01:20:04,291
He switched.
1577
01:20:04,375 --> 01:20:07,124
It was after that hearing
1578
01:20:07,208 --> 01:20:10,541
that the judge reduced
the sentence to life.
1579
01:20:14,041 --> 01:20:15,792
-Dorothy: Do you remember me?
-Yes.
1580
01:20:15,875 --> 01:20:18,958
-Yeah? What's my name?
That's right.
-Dorothy.
1581
01:20:19,041 --> 01:20:21,625
Dorothy:
No civilized nation
throughout history
1582
01:20:21,708 --> 01:20:24,041
has executed its insane.
1583
01:20:24,124 --> 01:20:26,583
So from a moral
point of view,
1584
01:20:26,667 --> 01:20:29,124
you don't kill people who,
1585
01:20:29,208 --> 01:20:31,375
because of an illness,
1586
01:20:31,458 --> 01:20:33,999
act in an
uncontrollable way.
1587
01:20:34,083 --> 01:20:37,083
Sawyer:
But does this really mitigate
1588
01:20:37,166 --> 01:20:39,833
the horrible crime he committed?
1589
01:20:39,917 --> 01:20:42,458
He should be punished
and punished severely,
1590
01:20:42,541 --> 01:20:44,750
but should he be put
to death for that
1591
01:20:44,833 --> 01:20:47,166
if the main operative factors
1592
01:20:47,249 --> 01:20:50,833
in producing his violence were
completely out of his control?
1593
01:20:50,917 --> 01:20:53,833
But under the law,
he is still competent enough
1594
01:20:53,917 --> 01:20:55,792
to know right from wrong.
1595
01:20:55,875 --> 01:20:59,999
The issue is really
whether the individual
1596
01:21:00,083 --> 01:21:03,166
has that degree of control
1597
01:21:03,249 --> 01:21:05,750
to conform his behavior
1598
01:21:05,833 --> 01:21:07,291
to the requirements of law.
1599
01:21:07,375 --> 01:21:08,833
♪ ♪
1600
01:21:08,917 --> 01:21:11,041
(banging)
1601
01:21:11,124 --> 01:21:13,833
Narrator:
My daughter believes that
the judge who sentences
1602
01:21:13,917 --> 01:21:16,375
a person to death
should be responsible
1603
01:21:16,458 --> 01:21:18,792
for carrying out
his sentence.
1604
01:21:18,875 --> 01:21:21,500
He should spring
the trapdoor
under the gallows,
1605
01:21:21,583 --> 01:21:23,708
press the button to
deliver the current,
1606
01:21:23,792 --> 01:21:26,041
inject the poison.
1607
01:21:26,124 --> 01:21:29,291
-(church bells ringing)
-She thinks then there
would be fewer executions.
1608
01:21:29,375 --> 01:21:30,667
Most people, she believes,
1609
01:21:30,750 --> 01:21:33,708
would have trouble
doing those things.
1610
01:21:33,792 --> 01:21:35,416
I'm not so sure.
1611
01:21:35,500 --> 01:21:39,750
Game Voice:
Do you wonder what it is like
to witness an electrocution?
1612
01:21:39,833 --> 01:21:42,375
Insert 25 cents,
1613
01:21:42,458 --> 01:21:44,917
then quickly pull
the control handles
1614
01:21:44,999 --> 01:21:46,333
to administer
capital punishment.
1615
01:21:46,416 --> 01:21:48,333
(electricity buzzing)
1616
01:21:48,416 --> 01:21:51,958
(clanking, banging)
1617
01:21:55,458 --> 01:21:58,708
Narrator:
My question is,
within our own society,
1618
01:21:58,792 --> 01:22:00,833
are there individuals
who are able
1619
01:22:00,917 --> 01:22:02,583
to kill repeatedly,
1620
01:22:02,667 --> 01:22:05,958
and whose only
psychopathology,
if you could call it that,
1621
01:22:06,041 --> 01:22:08,833
is a lack of empathy
for other human beings?
1622
01:22:10,041 --> 01:22:12,583
Are there real sociopaths?
1623
01:22:12,667 --> 01:22:14,458
♪ ♪
1624
01:22:14,541 --> 01:22:16,083
Reporter (on TV):
The man on the left
has killed almost
1625
01:22:16,166 --> 01:22:17,333
20 men in Louisiana
1626
01:22:17,416 --> 01:22:19,667
since December 1983.
1627
01:22:19,750 --> 01:22:21,625
He is sought after
by the authorities,
1628
01:22:21,708 --> 01:22:24,999
-but only when it is
time to kill again.
-(chuckles)
1629
01:22:25,083 --> 01:22:28,291
Sam Jones is an executioner.
1630
01:22:28,375 --> 01:22:30,667
How many people do you
think you've executed?
1631
01:22:30,750 --> 01:22:32,792
Sam Jones (on TV):
Uh, I don't know
the exact number.
1632
01:22:32,875 --> 01:22:35,583
Eighteen to 19,
I'm not sure.
I lose track.
1633
01:22:35,667 --> 01:22:37,917
Reporter:
Sam usually works out
of the death house
1634
01:22:37,999 --> 01:22:39,999
at the Angola State
Prison in Louisiana,
1635
01:22:40,083 --> 01:22:43,375
but today, he's some
1,148 miles away,
1636
01:22:43,458 --> 01:22:45,500
up in Harrisburg,
Pennsylvania,
where he's working
1637
01:22:45,583 --> 01:22:48,708
at his other job as
a licensed electrician.
1638
01:22:51,041 --> 01:22:53,583
Yeager:
He was a traveling
executioner.
1639
01:22:53,667 --> 01:22:56,999
So he would go wherever
the execution needed to be.
1640
01:22:57,083 --> 01:22:58,917
"People" magazine
had found this guy,
1641
01:22:58,999 --> 01:23:00,917
and I think he was
probably advertising
1642
01:23:00,999 --> 01:23:03,667
his services pretty widely.
1643
01:23:03,750 --> 01:23:04,708
(laughs)
1644
01:23:04,792 --> 01:23:06,124
Jones (on TV):
Warden, this is Sam Jones.
1645
01:23:06,208 --> 01:23:09,124
I was checking to see if
I had any dates coming up.
1646
01:23:09,208 --> 01:23:11,917
Dorothy:
He executed some
of my clients.
1647
01:23:14,458 --> 01:23:17,958
He lived in a trailer
park in Louisiana.
1648
01:23:18,041 --> 01:23:22,333
Cathy and I go down,
and we meet this guy.
1649
01:23:22,416 --> 01:23:24,375
Yeager:
I think I had said
to you before,
1650
01:23:24,458 --> 01:23:27,750
not too many people
have made me frightened.
1651
01:23:28,708 --> 01:23:29,917
He did.
1652
01:23:29,999 --> 01:23:32,041
Dorothy:
Sam came with,
I think, a six-pack,
1653
01:23:32,124 --> 01:23:34,500
and he opened for me
1654
01:23:34,583 --> 01:23:36,833
and for him,
and we started talking.
1655
01:23:36,917 --> 01:23:38,541
Are you ready?
1656
01:23:38,625 --> 01:23:41,249
Dorothy:
1657
01:23:47,416 --> 01:23:48,416
Dorothy: Yeah.
1658
01:23:57,958 --> 01:23:59,375
Mm-hmm.
1659
01:24:03,833 --> 01:24:05,083
Mm-hmm.
1660
01:24:06,541 --> 01:24:10,375
He had no insight into
what this was doing to him...
1661
01:24:10,458 --> 01:24:11,833
He, uh...
1662
01:24:20,500 --> 01:24:22,500
Narrator:
Now, I had met
someone who told me
1663
01:24:22,583 --> 01:24:25,875
he had no qualms
about killing anyone,
1664
01:24:25,958 --> 01:24:28,083
man, woman, or child.
1665
01:24:33,500 --> 01:24:34,999
Dorothy:
1666
01:24:39,708 --> 01:24:41,625
Narrator:
Was Sam Jones the character
1667
01:24:41,708 --> 01:24:44,166
I'd been seeking for years?
1668
01:24:44,249 --> 01:24:47,333
The cool, premeditated
killer without a trace
1669
01:24:47,416 --> 01:24:49,999
of psychosis
or brain damage?
1670
01:24:50,083 --> 01:24:53,083
♪ ♪
1671
01:24:53,166 --> 01:24:57,249
I did all this stuff that I do
with my murderers.
1672
01:24:57,333 --> 01:24:58,667
Dorothy:
1673
01:25:10,999 --> 01:25:12,708
Dorothy: Yeah. Like what?
1674
01:25:17,583 --> 01:25:19,583
Why? Oh really?
1675
01:25:19,667 --> 01:25:21,792
Dorothy:
1676
01:25:27,708 --> 01:25:29,291
Dorothy:
1677
01:25:37,124 --> 01:25:39,541
Dorothy:
1678
01:25:43,041 --> 01:25:44,249
Dorothy:
1679
01:25:52,917 --> 01:25:53,875
Dorothy:
1680
01:25:58,500 --> 01:26:01,041
Dorothy:
Sam was as confused
and muddle-headed,
1681
01:26:01,124 --> 01:26:03,291
as battered and beaten,
as the violent men
1682
01:26:03,375 --> 01:26:05,375
I had interviewed
on death row.
1683
01:26:05,458 --> 01:26:09,291
And by his own admission,
he had a violent past.
1684
01:26:09,375 --> 01:26:12,500
His serial executions
were but the latest
manifestations
1685
01:26:12,583 --> 01:26:15,208
of his paranoid rage.
1686
01:26:15,291 --> 01:26:18,583
He had served time only
for assault and battery,
not for murder.
1687
01:26:18,667 --> 01:26:20,667
But that seemed more
the luck of the draw
1688
01:26:20,750 --> 01:26:23,541
than a reflection
of mental health.
1689
01:26:23,625 --> 01:26:26,083
By his 19th execution,
1690
01:26:26,166 --> 01:26:28,375
he had a lot
of experience.
1691
01:26:28,458 --> 01:26:31,833
I suspect each
press of the button
further inured him,
1692
01:26:31,917 --> 01:26:35,958
making it easier and easier
over time to do his job.
1693
01:26:37,083 --> 01:26:39,416
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, uh-huh.
1694
01:26:41,917 --> 01:26:44,792
Yeager:
When he was really
talking about himself
1695
01:26:44,875 --> 01:26:47,083
and really getting
into his philosophy
1696
01:26:47,166 --> 01:26:49,875
on executions
and he's just doing a job,
1697
01:26:50,583 --> 01:26:52,083
he told us that...
1698
01:26:54,833 --> 01:26:56,333
Dorothy:
1699
01:26:58,458 --> 01:26:59,792
Dorothy:
1700
01:27:06,541 --> 01:27:09,833
Yeager:
He would blank out, and he
would do a piece of artwork.
1701
01:27:09,917 --> 01:27:11,625
(indistinct chatter)
1702
01:27:11,708 --> 01:27:15,124
Dorothy:
The pictures got more
and more bizarre,
1703
01:27:15,208 --> 01:27:17,249
more and more psychotic,
1704
01:27:17,333 --> 01:27:19,999
and more and more
violent.
1705
01:27:20,083 --> 01:27:21,875
Jones:
1706
01:27:21,958 --> 01:27:25,458
Yeager: There, you saw
the real person who had
1707
01:27:25,541 --> 01:27:29,375
this facade that
he was a cool guy
'cause he was doing this
1708
01:27:29,458 --> 01:27:32,917
terrifying work, which
should upset anybody.
1709
01:27:32,999 --> 01:27:36,917
Although he was very
cool about, you know,
"Oh, no big deal."
1710
01:27:36,999 --> 01:27:40,416
His paintings
showed his humanity.
1711
01:27:40,500 --> 01:27:42,958
You could see the upset.
1712
01:27:49,375 --> 01:27:50,541
Dorothy: Mm-hmm.
1713
01:28:03,583 --> 01:28:05,500
Dorothy:
Yeah.
1714
01:28:15,041 --> 01:28:16,458
Dorothy:
1715
01:28:16,541 --> 01:28:18,750
It's puzzling. It's...
1716
01:28:20,208 --> 01:28:23,875
you know, you,
you certainly wonder was--
1717
01:28:23,958 --> 01:28:27,792
did he dissociate or, uh,
1718
01:28:27,875 --> 01:28:31,833
did he think killing is
different from executing?
1719
01:28:34,958 --> 01:28:37,541
Dorothy: Your grandchild?
How old is your grandchild?
1720
01:28:38,375 --> 01:28:39,333
Dorothy:
1721
01:28:41,208 --> 01:28:43,041
Dorothy:
(laughs) He does?
1722
01:28:43,124 --> 01:28:46,208
♪ ♪
1723
01:28:52,583 --> 01:28:55,708
(birds chirping)
1724
01:29:01,667 --> 01:29:03,083
(grunts)
1725
01:29:05,750 --> 01:29:08,124
(coughing)
There's mold on these things.
1726
01:29:11,917 --> 01:29:14,291
(clacking)
1727
01:29:19,917 --> 01:29:23,249
Oh for... God's sake.
1728
01:29:23,333 --> 01:29:24,541
Hey, Eric?
1729
01:29:24,625 --> 01:29:28,208
-Eric! Eric,
guess what I found?
-Eric: Yeah?
1730
01:29:28,291 --> 01:29:31,500
"1/23/89, tape 2."
1731
01:29:31,583 --> 01:29:32,999
(Eric laughs)
1732
01:29:33,083 --> 01:29:36,208
You know what that is?
I wouldn't even put
1733
01:29:36,291 --> 01:29:38,291
Bundy's name on it
'cause I thought
1734
01:29:38,375 --> 01:29:40,667
in case anyone
got hold of these,
1735
01:29:40,750 --> 01:29:42,625
I didn't want them
to know what it was.
1736
01:29:42,708 --> 01:29:45,708
That's my last
interview with him.
1737
01:29:45,792 --> 01:29:48,041
Take a look.
Don't get DNA on it!
1738
01:29:48,124 --> 01:29:49,541
(laughs)
1739
01:29:49,625 --> 01:29:53,541
♪ ♪
1740
01:29:53,625 --> 01:29:56,458
Narrator:
It is now 30 years
since Theodore Bundy,
1741
01:29:56,541 --> 01:29:58,375
arguably the most notorious
1742
01:29:58,458 --> 01:30:01,124
American serial murderer
of the 20th century,
1743
01:30:01,208 --> 01:30:02,833
was electrocuted.
1744
01:30:02,917 --> 01:30:05,041
Crowd (singing):
♪ Fry, fry! ♪
1745
01:30:05,124 --> 01:30:06,792
♪ Ted Bundy, goodbye ♪
1746
01:30:06,875 --> 01:30:09,083
Narrator:
For readers unfamiliar
with this case,
1747
01:30:09,166 --> 01:30:10,667
Theodore Bundy
was a young male
1748
01:30:10,750 --> 01:30:13,333
sexual predator who
terrorized the United States
1749
01:30:13,416 --> 01:30:17,625
from coast to coast
during the 1970s.
1750
01:30:18,958 --> 01:30:22,833
He committed over
30 homicides of young women,
1751
01:30:22,917 --> 01:30:24,583
decapitating some
1752
01:30:24,667 --> 01:30:27,166
and saving their
skulls as trophies.
1753
01:30:28,833 --> 01:30:31,792
Attractive, articulate,
and charismatic,
1754
01:30:31,875 --> 01:30:33,416
he convinced the court
1755
01:30:33,500 --> 01:30:36,249
to allow him to
represent himself,
1756
01:30:36,333 --> 01:30:39,458
turning his trials more
into performance pieces
1757
01:30:39,541 --> 01:30:42,083
than serious legal
proceedings.
1758
01:30:42,166 --> 01:30:44,124
After numerous
unsuccessful appeals,
1759
01:30:44,208 --> 01:30:47,166
Bundy was executed
in Starke, Florida,
1760
01:30:47,249 --> 01:30:50,375
on January 24th, 1989.
1761
01:30:52,500 --> 01:30:54,083
(typing)
1762
01:30:54,166 --> 01:30:57,917
Why write about Bundy
decades after his death?
1763
01:30:57,999 --> 01:31:00,750
Hasn't everything of
importance already
been said?
1764
01:31:00,833 --> 01:31:02,375
No.
1765
01:31:04,375 --> 01:31:06,583
The authors
resurrect this case
1766
01:31:06,667 --> 01:31:09,291
to call into question
the widely held belief
1767
01:31:09,375 --> 01:31:14,166
that Bundy had
a normal childhood,
and that he simply had
1768
01:31:14,249 --> 01:31:17,458
an innate predisposition
to extreme violence.
1769
01:31:17,541 --> 01:31:20,458
That he was simply
born evil.
1770
01:31:20,541 --> 01:31:23,625
Bundy himself perpetuated
the fantasy
1771
01:31:23,708 --> 01:31:26,541
that he came from this
perfectly normal childhood,
1772
01:31:26,625 --> 01:31:29,124
and so, he must be evil.
1773
01:31:29,208 --> 01:31:32,541
I grew up in a wonderful
home with two...
1774
01:31:32,625 --> 01:31:34,249
dedicated and loving parents,
1775
01:31:34,333 --> 01:31:36,958
one of five brothers
and sisters.
1776
01:31:37,041 --> 01:31:40,500
Yeager:
That's fodder for us to say,
now, wait a minute.
1777
01:31:40,583 --> 01:31:43,708
We know that people
are not born evil.
1778
01:31:43,792 --> 01:31:46,208
That has to develop somehow.
1779
01:31:46,291 --> 01:31:49,166
I hope no one will try
to take the easy way out
1780
01:31:49,249 --> 01:31:52,333
and to try to blame
or otherwise accuse
1781
01:31:52,416 --> 01:31:55,875
my family of contributing
to this because...
1782
01:31:55,958 --> 01:31:59,083
Gibney:
So I'm interested in
particular of why you,
1783
01:31:59,166 --> 01:32:02,208
you're so interested in him,
even today.
1784
01:32:02,291 --> 01:32:04,667
Uh-huh. Well, uh,
1785
01:32:04,750 --> 01:32:07,750
first of all,
'cause I got it wrong.
1786
01:32:07,833 --> 01:32:10,833
♪ ♪
1787
01:32:10,917 --> 01:32:15,750
In '86, Bundy's attorneys
asked, "Would you
1788
01:32:15,833 --> 01:32:19,375
work with the defense team?"
Because they were appealing.
1789
01:32:19,458 --> 01:32:21,583
And I said sure.
1790
01:32:21,667 --> 01:32:24,208
We had our psychologist,
1791
01:32:24,291 --> 01:32:27,333
our neurologist,
our neuropsychologist,
1792
01:32:27,416 --> 01:32:30,667
and did a computerized EEG.
1793
01:32:30,750 --> 01:32:34,708
We did not find any gross
neurological problems,
1794
01:32:34,792 --> 01:32:37,792
but we did find
some abnormalities
1795
01:32:37,875 --> 01:32:41,875
that are often seen
in depressed people.
1796
01:32:41,958 --> 01:32:46,166
Bundy had already
been evaluated by several
other professionals.
1797
01:32:47,458 --> 01:32:49,541
They diagnosed psychopathy.
1798
01:32:49,625 --> 01:32:52,333
They said he was
just a psychopath.
1799
01:32:54,999 --> 01:32:58,124
-Did you ever see
the Dobson tapes?
-Gibney: Yes.
1800
01:32:58,208 --> 01:32:59,333
You know? (laughs)
1801
01:32:59,416 --> 01:33:01,291
James Dobson:
Ted, how did it happen?
1802
01:33:01,375 --> 01:33:04,917
Take me back.
What are the antecedents
1803
01:33:04,999 --> 01:33:06,458
of the behavior?
1804
01:33:06,541 --> 01:33:08,750
The basic...
1805
01:33:08,833 --> 01:33:12,416
humanity and basic spirit
that God gave me was intact,
1806
01:33:12,500 --> 01:33:15,875
but, unfortunately,
it became overwhelmed at times
1807
01:33:15,958 --> 01:33:19,291
through the kind of fantasy
life that was fueled...
1808
01:33:20,416 --> 01:33:24,083
largely,
by pornography.
1809
01:33:24,166 --> 01:33:25,999
Do you realize how many
1810
01:33:26,083 --> 01:33:28,458
serial killers you
would have out there
1811
01:33:28,541 --> 01:33:30,917
if pornography could do that?
1812
01:33:30,999 --> 01:33:33,041
It's so simple-minded.
1813
01:33:33,124 --> 01:33:36,375
I think it's clear that sexual
sadists, like Ted Bundy,
1814
01:33:36,458 --> 01:33:38,249
are very much interested
in pornography.
1815
01:33:38,333 --> 01:33:42,249
Research I've recently done
with Roy Hazelwood of the FBI
1816
01:33:42,333 --> 01:33:45,750
indicated that more than 50%
of sexually sadistic offenders,
1817
01:33:45,833 --> 01:33:48,541
like Bundy, had sizable
pornography collections.
1818
01:33:48,625 --> 01:33:51,999
Would curbing pornography
make our society any safer?
1819
01:33:52,083 --> 01:33:54,500
It would do more good than
banning assault rifles would do.
1820
01:33:54,583 --> 01:33:56,999
Bryant Gumbel:
What kinds of materials
are, perhaps,
1821
01:33:57,083 --> 01:33:59,792
-more harmful?
-Well, number one on my list,
1822
01:33:59,875 --> 01:34:03,249
as of 1986, was the covers
of "Detective" magazines.
1823
01:34:03,333 --> 01:34:05,833
♪ ♪
1824
01:34:05,917 --> 01:34:08,875
Dorothy:
Bundy's grandfather
had a real collection
1825
01:34:08,958 --> 01:34:12,416
of pornography that he
was exposed to very young,
1826
01:34:12,500 --> 01:34:14,083
pulp fiction,
1827
01:34:14,166 --> 01:34:16,625
sex and murder
and stuff like that.
1828
01:34:16,708 --> 01:34:21,541
And he would fantasize about
these sexual, murderous
1829
01:34:21,625 --> 01:34:23,124
kinds of things.
1830
01:34:23,208 --> 01:34:27,583
And he said
it would build and build,
1831
01:34:27,667 --> 01:34:30,875
and then,
it had to be released.
1832
01:34:32,667 --> 01:34:35,124
Ted Bundy:
Those of us who have been
1833
01:34:35,208 --> 01:34:40,208
so much influenced by
pornographic violence
1834
01:34:40,291 --> 01:34:42,708
are not some kind of
inherent monsters.
1835
01:34:42,792 --> 01:34:45,750
We are your sons
and we are your husbands.
1836
01:34:45,833 --> 01:34:48,166
We grew up in regular families,
1837
01:34:48,249 --> 01:34:49,708
and pornography can reach out
1838
01:34:49,792 --> 01:34:53,083
and snatch a kid out
of any house today.
1839
01:34:53,166 --> 01:34:57,166
Dorothy:
Clearly, it had
some influence on him,
1840
01:34:57,249 --> 01:34:59,917
but I think there were
other explanations.
1841
01:34:59,999 --> 01:35:01,541
♪ ♪
1842
01:35:01,625 --> 01:35:04,500
And so, I interviewed
family members.
1843
01:35:04,583 --> 01:35:07,875
His aunts, an uncle,
his mother.
1844
01:35:09,792 --> 01:35:12,458
I learned that his
grandmother suffered
1845
01:35:12,541 --> 01:35:14,708
from a depressive disorder.
1846
01:35:14,792 --> 01:35:17,208
She was psychiatrically
hospitalized
1847
01:35:17,291 --> 01:35:20,333
and treated with
electroconvulsive therapy.
1848
01:35:20,416 --> 01:35:22,041
(electricity buzzing)
1849
01:35:22,124 --> 01:35:25,958
I was talking to
Aunt Julia, and I said,
1850
01:35:26,041 --> 01:35:29,124
"What was he like
as a little boy?"
1851
01:35:29,208 --> 01:35:32,708
And she said, "Well,
when he was 3 years old,
1852
01:35:32,792 --> 01:35:35,875
"he used to come up
with kitchen knives,
1853
01:35:35,958 --> 01:35:38,208
"and he'd stand
1854
01:35:38,291 --> 01:35:40,291
at the door,
then he'd come in."
1855
01:35:40,375 --> 01:35:43,249
He picked up the blanket
1856
01:35:43,333 --> 01:35:47,249
and put the knives
around her on the bed.
1857
01:35:47,333 --> 01:35:50,249
And he had that
glint in his eye.
1858
01:35:52,041 --> 01:35:55,667
This was the first,
the very, very first time
1859
01:35:55,750 --> 01:36:00,249
that we realized
how aberrant he had been.
1860
01:36:00,333 --> 01:36:02,166
I was so stunned.
1861
01:36:03,625 --> 01:36:05,249
Reporter 1:
Convicted murderer
Theodore Bundy
1862
01:36:05,333 --> 01:36:08,291
is taking new steps to avoid
Florida's electric chair.
1863
01:36:08,375 --> 01:36:10,249
Reporter 2:
Armed guards brought Bundy
1864
01:36:10,333 --> 01:36:12,375
to the Orlando Federal
Building for a hearing
1865
01:36:12,458 --> 01:36:14,541
to determine his
mental competency.
1866
01:36:14,625 --> 01:36:16,750
♪ ♪
1867
01:36:16,833 --> 01:36:20,541
Dorothy:
When I testified,
I had enough data
1868
01:36:20,625 --> 01:36:23,833
to make a diagnosis
of a bipolar disorder.
1869
01:36:23,917 --> 01:36:26,333
He had episodes of highs
where he could keep
1870
01:36:26,416 --> 01:36:29,792
going and going and going
and he was grandiose,
1871
01:36:29,875 --> 01:36:32,083
but these were
interspersed with periods
1872
01:36:32,166 --> 01:36:34,083
of terrible depression,
1873
01:36:34,166 --> 01:36:35,917
when he'd drop out
of school,
1874
01:36:35,999 --> 01:36:40,083
he would weep,
he would go off by himself.
1875
01:36:40,166 --> 01:36:43,083
On the stand,
I said he was not competent
1876
01:36:43,166 --> 01:36:44,875
either to represent himself,
1877
01:36:44,958 --> 01:36:46,958
or, really, to go to trial.
1878
01:36:47,041 --> 01:36:50,291
I'm not going through this
and you knew that, Your Honor.
1879
01:36:50,375 --> 01:36:53,833
Dorothy:
But the judge ruled that
he was competent enough,
1880
01:36:53,917 --> 01:36:56,999
and he upheld
the death sentence.
1881
01:36:57,083 --> 01:36:58,208
(static)
1882
01:36:58,291 --> 01:37:01,249
Reporter:
Salvador Dali was 84.
1883
01:37:01,333 --> 01:37:03,124
In Florida,
a convicted serial killer
1884
01:37:03,208 --> 01:37:06,124
is continuing his string
of 11th hour confessions.
1885
01:37:06,208 --> 01:37:09,166
As NBC's Ed Ravel reports,
Ted Bundy is apparently trying
1886
01:37:09,249 --> 01:37:12,958
to delay his execution scheduled
for the electric chair tomorrow.
1887
01:37:13,041 --> 01:37:16,124
Dorothy:
A few years after
I first saw him,
1888
01:37:16,208 --> 01:37:19,166
I got a call
from his lawyer,
1889
01:37:19,249 --> 01:37:22,917
saying he wanted to meet with
me before he was executed.
1890
01:37:22,999 --> 01:37:25,500
So I did go.
1891
01:37:25,583 --> 01:37:28,166
The attorney, she said,
1892
01:37:28,249 --> 01:37:31,083
"Ted wants to know
if you can
1893
01:37:31,166 --> 01:37:35,333
say that he is incompetent
to be executed."
1894
01:37:35,416 --> 01:37:38,917
And I said, "I would
be laughed out of town.
1895
01:37:38,999 --> 01:37:40,833
I just can't do that."
And I said,
1896
01:37:40,917 --> 01:37:43,375
"And all the work
that we've done
1897
01:37:43,458 --> 01:37:46,541
"to understand people who
1898
01:37:46,625 --> 01:37:50,875
"do these kinds of things
will not be considered valid
1899
01:37:50,958 --> 01:37:54,500
if I say something
as ridiculous as that."
1900
01:37:54,583 --> 01:37:56,750
Gibney:
But he clearly knew he
was going to be executed.
1901
01:37:56,833 --> 01:37:58,583
-Yes.
-He knew what
an execution meant.
1902
01:37:58,667 --> 01:38:00,583
That's right,
and he knew what he had done.
1903
01:38:00,667 --> 01:38:02,041
♪ ♪
1904
01:38:02,124 --> 01:38:04,208
And I said,
"Besides, the warden
1905
01:38:04,291 --> 01:38:06,708
"has three other
psychiatrists out there,
1906
01:38:06,792 --> 01:38:09,958
waiting to refute this."
1907
01:38:10,041 --> 01:38:11,625
Gibney:
What was his reaction?
1908
01:38:11,708 --> 01:38:14,625
He said he, he could
understand that.
1909
01:38:15,625 --> 01:38:17,833
Dorothy (on tape):
Testing.
1910
01:38:17,917 --> 01:38:21,375
Dorothy:
He gave me permission
to tape the conversation.
1911
01:38:21,458 --> 01:38:24,124
Dorothy (on tape):
1912
01:38:25,708 --> 01:38:28,750
Dorothy:
I asked him why did
he ask to see me.
1913
01:38:29,375 --> 01:38:30,875
And he said...
1914
01:38:30,958 --> 01:38:33,917
Bundy (on tape):
1915
01:38:37,833 --> 01:38:43,625
I was not fascinated
by his perversions.
1916
01:38:43,708 --> 01:38:49,249
I was far more interested in
how he got the way he was.
1917
01:38:49,333 --> 01:38:52,416
Narrator:
Whatever his motives for
asking me to come to Starke
1918
01:38:52,500 --> 01:38:53,917
and mine for coming,
1919
01:38:53,999 --> 01:38:55,917
our four and a half
hours together
1920
01:38:55,999 --> 01:38:59,500
on the day before his
execution were riveting.
1921
01:38:59,583 --> 01:39:01,708
Dorothy (on tape):
1922
01:39:09,333 --> 01:39:11,333
Bundy (on tape):
1923
01:39:24,041 --> 01:39:26,458
Bundy (on tape):
1924
01:39:26,541 --> 01:39:27,958
(door creaking)
1925
01:39:28,041 --> 01:39:29,958
Narrator:
When the tape recorder
was off,
1926
01:39:30,041 --> 01:39:32,083
Bundy told me
that he had had
1927
01:39:32,166 --> 01:39:35,583
a sexual encounter
with one of his sisters.
1928
01:39:35,667 --> 01:39:37,917
Later, his mother told me
1929
01:39:37,999 --> 01:39:40,041
that Bundy
had told his sister
1930
01:39:40,124 --> 01:39:41,541
that she should be careful
1931
01:39:41,625 --> 01:39:43,333
because there was
someone out in the world
1932
01:39:43,416 --> 01:39:46,750
who was killing women
who looked just like her.
1933
01:39:47,958 --> 01:39:49,667
Bit by bit, I was beginning
1934
01:39:49,750 --> 01:39:53,249
to see
a very different story
in Bundy's family life.
1935
01:39:53,333 --> 01:39:56,875
One that would upend
the myth of pure evil.
1936
01:39:59,375 --> 01:40:02,541
(horn blaring, train roaring)
1937
01:40:04,416 --> 01:40:07,416
♪ ♪
1938
01:40:14,083 --> 01:40:16,750
(rumbling)
1939
01:40:22,750 --> 01:40:24,208
(doorbell rings)
1940
01:40:24,291 --> 01:40:26,999
(door opens)
1941
01:40:27,083 --> 01:40:28,458
-Dr. Lewis, how are you?
-Hello!
1942
01:40:28,541 --> 01:40:30,917
Dorothy:
The last interview
I did tape,
1943
01:40:30,999 --> 01:40:34,500
and there was a point
in that interview
1944
01:40:34,583 --> 01:40:37,500
when he said, "I want you to
turn the tape off." Only once.
1945
01:40:37,583 --> 01:40:38,999
And that was when
he talked about
1946
01:40:39,083 --> 01:40:40,500
his relationship
with his sister.
1947
01:40:40,583 --> 01:40:42,583
I didn't talk to him
about his sisters.
1948
01:40:42,667 --> 01:40:44,750
I was basically talking
about crimes with him.
1949
01:40:44,833 --> 01:40:46,833
Really? Did you--
But even earlier on,
1950
01:40:46,917 --> 01:40:49,792
-he didn't tell
you that he had--
-No, I didn't...
1951
01:40:49,875 --> 01:40:52,375
He was always protective
with his family. I mean,
1952
01:40:52,458 --> 01:40:55,583
he would tell me things that
I wouldn't even ask him about.
1953
01:40:55,667 --> 01:40:58,041
Dorothy:
Bill Hagmaier,
he was the major
1954
01:40:58,124 --> 01:41:00,458
FBI agent on the case.
1955
01:41:00,541 --> 01:41:04,083
He had spent
a lot of time with Bundy,
1956
01:41:04,166 --> 01:41:06,083
much more time than I did.
1957
01:41:06,166 --> 01:41:08,792
So, that's why
I wanted to see him.
1958
01:41:09,625 --> 01:41:13,500
Each of us was close to Bundy
1959
01:41:13,583 --> 01:41:16,333
in a different kind of capacity.
1960
01:41:16,416 --> 01:41:20,750
We were the ones that
Bundy trusted.
1961
01:41:20,833 --> 01:41:23,583
♪ ♪
1962
01:41:23,667 --> 01:41:27,166
Bill Hagmaier:
I was assigned to
the Behavioral Science Unit,
1963
01:41:27,249 --> 01:41:29,667
and they had already
started to do
1964
01:41:29,750 --> 01:41:31,917
some research
on murderers,
1965
01:41:31,999 --> 01:41:34,333
and Bundy's name came up.
1966
01:41:34,416 --> 01:41:36,999
So I wrote him a letter,
just general letter,
1967
01:41:37,083 --> 01:41:39,875
and Ted invited
me to visit him.
1968
01:41:39,958 --> 01:41:41,541
Gibney:
Were you able to get
Bundy to talk much
1969
01:41:41,625 --> 01:41:44,249
about his family
and his childhood?
1970
01:41:44,333 --> 01:41:47,708
Hagmaier:
We talked about it
quite a bit.
1971
01:41:47,792 --> 01:41:49,917
He wasn't telling the truth
on all this, I know.
1972
01:41:49,999 --> 01:41:52,875
Everything was cotton candy
for him and his family.
1973
01:41:52,958 --> 01:41:55,958
He didn't want to say anything
bad about his family at all.
1974
01:41:56,041 --> 01:41:57,208
Or his mother.
1975
01:41:58,500 --> 01:42:00,750
Dorothy:
Bundy's mother
was impregnated
1976
01:42:00,833 --> 01:42:03,958
by someone,
we're not sure who it is.
1977
01:42:04,041 --> 01:42:06,375
I asked her something
about how she felt
1978
01:42:06,458 --> 01:42:08,625
when she knew
she was pregnant.
1979
01:42:08,708 --> 01:42:11,875
And I don't know if
I actually said abortion
1980
01:42:11,958 --> 01:42:15,792
or if she brought it up,
but she said, "He,"
1981
01:42:15,875 --> 01:42:17,750
now meaning the father,
1982
01:42:17,833 --> 01:42:20,291
"He took me to a doctor.
1983
01:42:20,375 --> 01:42:24,291
"The doctor gave me
pills for an abortion,
1984
01:42:24,375 --> 01:42:25,917
but nothing happened."
1985
01:42:25,999 --> 01:42:29,625
-Gibney: So it was an attempted
abortion that didn't succeed?
-Yeah, yeah.
1986
01:42:29,708 --> 01:42:32,333
Which is not supposed
to be so good for the baby.
1987
01:42:34,875 --> 01:42:36,541
Her father made
arrangements
1988
01:42:36,625 --> 01:42:40,792
for her to go up to
a home for unwed mothers,
1989
01:42:40,875 --> 01:42:42,958
called the Lund Home.
1990
01:42:43,041 --> 01:42:45,416
She was at the Lund Home
for two months,
1991
01:42:45,500 --> 01:42:48,041
and then gave birth to him.
1992
01:42:48,124 --> 01:42:51,583
She wouldn't allow her
father to come up at all
1993
01:42:51,667 --> 01:42:54,999
until after the baby
was born,
1994
01:42:55,083 --> 01:42:57,667
and she signed papers
1995
01:42:57,750 --> 01:43:01,124
saying he could be
put up for adoption.
1996
01:43:01,208 --> 01:43:03,999
And then,
her father came up
1997
01:43:04,083 --> 01:43:07,249
and brought her home,
back to Philadelphia.
1998
01:43:07,333 --> 01:43:10,375
However, for two months,
he kept saying,
1999
01:43:10,458 --> 01:43:13,500
"We have to get
the baby back.
We want the baby back."
2000
01:43:13,583 --> 01:43:16,416
And finally, she gave in.
2001
01:43:16,500 --> 01:43:19,792
She went and picked
the baby up,
brought the baby home,
2002
01:43:19,875 --> 01:43:22,667
and then her father
insisted
2003
01:43:22,750 --> 01:43:25,708
that he be known
as the baby's father,
2004
01:43:25,792 --> 01:43:28,375
and that the baby
call him Father,
2005
01:43:28,458 --> 01:43:31,667
and that Louise be
known as his sister.
2006
01:43:31,750 --> 01:43:34,124
♪ ♪
2007
01:43:35,416 --> 01:43:37,541
He was an incredibly
violent man,
2008
01:43:37,625 --> 01:43:39,917
and, apparently,
a very, very disturbed man,
2009
01:43:39,999 --> 01:43:44,166
according to interviews that
I've had with relatives.
2010
01:43:44,249 --> 01:43:46,416
Dorothy (on tape):
2011
01:43:50,041 --> 01:43:52,667
Bundy (on tape):
2012
01:43:58,500 --> 01:44:00,124
(traffic noise)
2013
01:44:00,208 --> 01:44:02,124
Dorothy:
The whole family
2014
01:44:02,208 --> 01:44:04,875
knows the story
that in the car
2015
01:44:04,958 --> 01:44:07,541
while the grandfather
was driving,
2016
01:44:07,625 --> 01:44:09,541
one of his younger
brothers, I believe,
2017
01:44:09,625 --> 01:44:15,333
said, "Oh! Tell us about
Ted's real father."
2018
01:44:15,416 --> 01:44:16,750
And, apparently,
2019
01:44:16,833 --> 01:44:20,999
the grandfather was out of
his mind, filled with rage.
2020
01:44:22,708 --> 01:44:25,792
He had total control
over Bundy's mother.
2021
01:44:25,875 --> 01:44:30,291
He had total control over
how this child was
gonna be raised,
2022
01:44:30,375 --> 01:44:33,583
and, um, and the family
told Dorothy that
2023
01:44:33,667 --> 01:44:36,999
they had to help the mother
and the child, Ted,
2024
01:44:37,083 --> 01:44:39,792
escape from the father
and go cross-country
2025
01:44:39,875 --> 01:44:42,541
to get away from him.
2026
01:44:42,625 --> 01:44:44,708
Dorothy:
Things were horrendous
for Bundy
2027
01:44:44,792 --> 01:44:46,416
from conception onward.
2028
01:44:46,500 --> 01:44:49,625
♪ ♪
2029
01:44:55,667 --> 01:44:57,583
(birds chirping)
2030
01:44:57,667 --> 01:44:59,875
(papers rustling)
2031
01:45:01,917 --> 01:45:05,958
Several years after
Bundy was executed,
2032
01:45:06,041 --> 01:45:08,708
I got a phone call
from his wife, and--
2033
01:45:08,792 --> 01:45:12,041
who I had never spoken to,
never heard from before,
2034
01:45:12,124 --> 01:45:15,708
and I think I couldn't even
contact her while he was alive.
2035
01:45:15,792 --> 01:45:20,124
And she said a friend of
hers was coming to New York.
2036
01:45:20,208 --> 01:45:24,792
She was going to give her
a packet of love letters
2037
01:45:24,875 --> 01:45:28,375
that Bundy had
written to her.
2038
01:45:29,708 --> 01:45:34,625
The handwriting was
all very much alike.
2039
01:45:34,708 --> 01:45:37,416
But the signatures
were different.
2040
01:45:38,999 --> 01:45:44,625
See look. This would be a--
an ordinary thing.
2041
01:45:44,708 --> 01:45:47,958
An ordinary writing, yeah.
2042
01:45:48,041 --> 01:45:50,416
But, uh, here,
look at the difference.
2043
01:45:50,500 --> 01:45:52,708
That is so aberrant
2044
01:45:52,792 --> 01:45:55,667
and out of control
and, uh, different.
2045
01:45:55,750 --> 01:46:00,375
He often signed different
names to his letters,
2046
01:46:00,458 --> 01:46:04,875
but the most important one
is that some of them
2047
01:46:04,958 --> 01:46:06,291
are signed "Sam."
2048
01:46:06,375 --> 01:46:08,999
Oh look, here's Sam.
2049
01:46:09,083 --> 01:46:11,792
Here's Sam.
2050
01:46:11,875 --> 01:46:13,708
Here's another Sam.
2051
01:46:13,792 --> 01:46:16,416
No, it's a Sambo.
It's a version of Sam.
2052
01:46:16,500 --> 01:46:17,917
Sambo.
2053
01:46:19,166 --> 01:46:21,166
It turns out that
2054
01:46:21,249 --> 01:46:24,583
Sam was the name
of his grandfather.
2055
01:46:26,458 --> 01:46:29,792
People who are multiples,
or who have DID,
2056
01:46:29,875 --> 01:46:33,333
it's very common for
them to have an alter
2057
01:46:33,416 --> 01:46:35,667
who is the abuser.
2058
01:46:35,750 --> 01:46:41,416
When I saw that, I thought,
how did I so miss this?
2059
01:46:41,500 --> 01:46:44,416
We realized that Sam
was the grandfather,
2060
01:46:44,500 --> 01:46:47,708
and that he had taken
on this persona...
2061
01:46:47,792 --> 01:46:50,500
With all the work that
we have been doing,
2062
01:46:50,583 --> 01:46:53,708
there are numerous
data that show
2063
01:46:53,792 --> 01:46:56,208
he is somewhere on the continuum
2064
01:46:56,291 --> 01:46:59,500
of Dissociative
Identity Disorder.
2065
01:47:00,958 --> 01:47:02,541
When he was going
to be sentenced,
2066
01:47:02,625 --> 01:47:05,583
-he said to the judge...
-Bundy: I'm not
asking for mercy,
2067
01:47:05,667 --> 01:47:07,333
for I find it
somewhat absurd
2068
01:47:07,416 --> 01:47:10,750
to ask for mercy for
something I did not do.
2069
01:47:10,833 --> 01:47:14,708
Dorothy:
And there was one time
after he had told me
2070
01:47:14,792 --> 01:47:16,833
about many of the murders.
2071
01:47:16,917 --> 01:47:18,958
He came in and he sat down,
2072
01:47:19,041 --> 01:47:21,166
and his demeanor
was different.
2073
01:47:21,249 --> 01:47:25,083
And he said, "The person
sitting before you
2074
01:47:25,166 --> 01:47:28,750
never killed anyone."
2075
01:47:28,833 --> 01:47:31,041
I don't think
that he is kidding
2076
01:47:31,124 --> 01:47:33,583
or pretending that
he's innocent.
2077
01:47:33,667 --> 01:47:36,333
I think that there
is a Bundy state
2078
01:47:36,416 --> 01:47:39,041
where he did not do
any of those murders.
2079
01:47:39,124 --> 01:47:40,291
♪ ♪
2080
01:47:40,375 --> 01:47:45,249
In fact, he referred
to the person who killed,
2081
01:47:45,333 --> 01:47:47,124
he called that The Entity.
2082
01:47:47,208 --> 01:47:49,375
Bundy (on tape):
2083
01:48:28,208 --> 01:48:30,208
(indistinct tape chatter)
2084
01:48:30,291 --> 01:48:32,708
Dorothy:
I had a clue then
2085
01:48:32,792 --> 01:48:36,333
that he might suffer from
a dissociative disorder,
2086
01:48:36,416 --> 01:48:38,416
but then when I saw the writing,
2087
01:48:38,500 --> 01:48:41,500
and I saw that he did, at times,
2088
01:48:41,583 --> 01:48:44,333
seem to become his grandfather,
2089
01:48:44,416 --> 01:48:47,667
who was a very violent
kind of person,
2090
01:48:47,750 --> 01:48:49,416
that's when I got interested.
2091
01:48:50,583 --> 01:48:52,333
So yeah, uh...
2092
01:48:52,416 --> 01:48:55,667
I'm not the first to have
2093
01:48:55,750 --> 01:48:59,583
wondered whether his grandfather
was indeed his father.
2094
01:48:59,667 --> 01:49:02,041
♪ ♪
2095
01:49:02,124 --> 01:49:04,333
May I ask you
a question?
2096
01:49:04,416 --> 01:49:07,750
There are a lot of reasons
that I think this would--
2097
01:49:07,833 --> 01:49:10,083
and you've heard
this also before.
2098
01:49:10,166 --> 01:49:13,875
Other people who
have thought that--
2099
01:49:13,958 --> 01:49:16,875
I've said he's his own
father, but he isn't.
2100
01:49:16,958 --> 01:49:19,792
I-I think the grandfather
may have...
2101
01:49:21,667 --> 01:49:23,208
Hagmaier:
I-I don't know.
2102
01:49:23,291 --> 01:49:25,667
I know that was one of
the first things that
Louise said to me
2103
01:49:25,750 --> 01:49:28,208
when she met me.
She just said,
"I just want you to know
2104
01:49:28,291 --> 01:49:31,208
right now that my father
is not his father."
2105
01:49:31,291 --> 01:49:34,500
-(laughing)
-I didn't-- I didn't even
ask her the question.
2106
01:49:34,583 --> 01:49:36,958
That is amazing
'cause I did not...
2107
01:49:37,041 --> 01:49:38,416
(voice fading)
2108
01:49:38,500 --> 01:49:40,792
A number of people
have suspected
2109
01:49:40,875 --> 01:49:43,583
that there was incest,
but nobody has ever come out
2110
01:49:43,667 --> 01:49:45,708
and said that there is
incest in the family.
2111
01:49:45,792 --> 01:49:47,917
If we were to get blood,
2112
01:49:48,917 --> 01:49:51,625
we could look at the genes
2113
01:49:51,708 --> 01:49:55,083
in the blood sample,
the DNA.
2114
01:49:55,166 --> 01:49:58,999
We all have a
certain number of
identical matching genes.
2115
01:50:00,083 --> 01:50:03,416
But, if you have more than
2116
01:50:03,500 --> 01:50:07,083
a certain number
of identical genes,
2117
01:50:07,166 --> 01:50:09,458
it is an indication
of incest
2118
01:50:09,541 --> 01:50:12,708
because you have too much
from the same family.
2119
01:50:12,792 --> 01:50:14,375
♪ ♪
2120
01:50:14,458 --> 01:50:16,917
Basically, what you're
getting to, does incest
2121
01:50:16,999 --> 01:50:19,792
influence serial
killer development?
2122
01:50:19,875 --> 01:50:23,291
(stammers):
I doubt that the FBI's lab
2123
01:50:23,375 --> 01:50:26,333
is going to give out
that for that purpose.
2124
01:50:26,416 --> 01:50:29,625
Not saying it wouldn't
help us understand behavior
2125
01:50:29,708 --> 01:50:33,458
in people with it,
but it's just...
2126
01:50:33,541 --> 01:50:37,291
Gibney:
So were you able to
get DNA from the FBI?
2127
01:50:37,375 --> 01:50:40,708
Dorothy:
Oh no. The FBI isn't
generous that way.
2128
01:50:42,124 --> 01:50:44,541
But I was able
to get a sample
2129
01:50:44,625 --> 01:50:47,958
elsewhere, and according
to that report,
2130
01:50:48,041 --> 01:50:50,625
his grandfather
was not his father.
2131
01:50:50,708 --> 01:50:53,458
He was not
the product of incest.
2132
01:50:53,541 --> 01:50:55,792
Gibney:
Was there some actual
disappointment when you--
2133
01:50:55,875 --> 01:50:59,708
-Dorothy: Oh yes.
Oh, oh yes.
-Gibney: And why would it be
2134
01:50:59,792 --> 01:51:02,792
so important to know
whether or not
Bundy's grandfather
2135
01:51:02,875 --> 01:51:04,458
was also his father?
2136
01:51:04,541 --> 01:51:07,124
I don't think
genetically it matters.
2137
01:51:07,208 --> 01:51:09,416
That I really don't believe.
2138
01:51:09,500 --> 01:51:11,249
Uh, you know, it might.
2139
01:51:11,333 --> 01:51:14,333
It may be
that he had more, uh,
2140
01:51:14,416 --> 01:51:17,792
a greater likelihood of
having a bipolar disorder,
2141
01:51:17,875 --> 01:51:20,833
but, uh, I think that--
2142
01:51:20,917 --> 01:51:22,917
I think he was treated
2143
01:51:22,999 --> 01:51:25,917
throughout his
lifetime as though
2144
01:51:25,999 --> 01:51:28,541
he were some
kind of child that
2145
01:51:28,625 --> 01:51:31,416
you don't want
to have around.
2146
01:51:31,500 --> 01:51:33,291
♪ ♪
2147
01:51:33,375 --> 01:51:36,208
His mother,
when I spoke with her,
2148
01:51:36,291 --> 01:51:39,583
she said, "I can't wait
till it's all over."
2149
01:51:41,958 --> 01:51:44,249
-Gibney: You mean the execution?
-Yeah.
2150
01:51:44,333 --> 01:51:47,833
I-I find it hard to
interpret it any other way.
2151
01:51:47,917 --> 01:51:51,458
Yeah. But can you imagine?
"I can't wait
till it's all over."
2152
01:51:51,541 --> 01:51:52,917
Uh...
2153
01:51:54,625 --> 01:51:56,708
Reporter:
There was the atmosphere
of a public hanging as
2154
01:51:56,792 --> 01:51:59,667
hundreds of singing,
chanting
death penalty supporters
2155
01:51:59,750 --> 01:52:01,291
gathered at
the Florida State Prison,
2156
01:52:01,375 --> 01:52:03,667
demanding the execution
of serial killer
2157
01:52:03,750 --> 01:52:05,416
Ted Bundy be carried out.
2158
01:52:05,500 --> 01:52:07,958
And when the
official witnesses
came out of the prison,
2159
01:52:08,041 --> 01:52:09,625
signaling the death
of Bundy,
2160
01:52:09,708 --> 01:52:13,500
-there were cheers.
-(crowd cheering)
2161
01:52:13,583 --> 01:52:16,667
(rumbling)
2162
01:52:19,750 --> 01:52:21,875
Dorothy:
You know,
it's taken me 30 years
2163
01:52:21,958 --> 01:52:23,458
to get to this point,
2164
01:52:23,541 --> 01:52:26,875
but we could've learned
a whole lot more from him.
2165
01:52:26,958 --> 01:52:31,708
If he were not killed,
we could've learned a lot about
2166
01:52:31,792 --> 01:52:35,208
serial murderers, but, uh...
2167
01:52:35,291 --> 01:52:37,999
they killed him.
They, uh...
2168
01:52:38,917 --> 01:52:41,999
♪ ♪
2169
01:52:54,166 --> 01:52:58,041
(wind blowing)
2170
01:52:58,124 --> 01:52:59,583
Female Reporter (on TV):
And we have
breaking news today
2171
01:52:59,667 --> 01:53:01,249
from the
Justice Department.
2172
01:53:01,333 --> 01:53:04,249
A new directive
from Attorney General
Bill Barr to reinstate
2173
01:53:04,333 --> 01:53:06,875
executions of federal
death penalty prisoners
2174
01:53:06,958 --> 01:53:08,917
for the first time in
nearly two decades.
2175
01:53:08,999 --> 01:53:12,083
But Attorney General Barr
says it's time to restore
2176
01:53:12,166 --> 01:53:14,625
the death penalty for
the sake of victims
2177
01:53:14,708 --> 01:53:16,667
and their families.
He points out that
2178
01:53:16,750 --> 01:53:19,667
under administrations
of both parties,
2179
01:53:19,750 --> 01:53:21,958
attorneys general
have approved seeking...
2180
01:53:22,041 --> 01:53:25,625
Dorothy:
When I heard that,
I thought that all of
2181
01:53:25,708 --> 01:53:29,124
the advances that
we had made in terms of
2182
01:53:29,208 --> 01:53:33,708
being humane,
uh, were lost.
2183
01:53:33,792 --> 01:53:35,458
♪ ♪
2184
01:53:35,541 --> 01:53:38,667
Barr, he puzzles me.
2185
01:53:38,750 --> 01:53:40,500
These five people.
If indeed,
2186
01:53:40,583 --> 01:53:43,416
they've done the most
grotesque things,
2187
01:53:43,500 --> 01:53:46,999
we know that
the most disturbed,
the most psychotic,
2188
01:53:47,083 --> 01:53:50,333
or the most brain-damaged
killers,
2189
01:53:50,416 --> 01:53:53,917
do the most bizarre,
grotesque, horrendous
kinds of things.
2190
01:53:53,999 --> 01:53:55,958
So he was picking
2191
01:53:56,041 --> 01:54:00,917
the sickest of the sick
to execute.
2192
01:54:03,625 --> 01:54:07,541
You know, I'm not sure
that we've come as far as
we think we have.
2193
01:54:09,083 --> 01:54:12,208
It feels as if all the work
2194
01:54:12,291 --> 01:54:15,667
that I had done,
that Dick Burr had done,
2195
01:54:15,750 --> 01:54:18,333
that, for the moment,
it had been--
2196
01:54:18,416 --> 01:54:20,875
It was like flushed
down the toilet.
2197
01:54:20,958 --> 01:54:23,291
(mob chattering)
2198
01:54:23,375 --> 01:54:26,708
As if we'd gone back
to like the Middle Ages.
2199
01:54:29,249 --> 01:54:31,875
(chatter continues)
2200
01:54:31,958 --> 01:54:34,583
♪ ♪
2201
01:54:34,667 --> 01:54:37,583
I remember one time,
someone asked me,
2202
01:54:37,667 --> 01:54:39,833
"When you see in a movie
2203
01:54:39,917 --> 01:54:42,208
"or read about
a witch being burned,
2204
01:54:42,291 --> 01:54:45,667
are you watching it,
or are you the witch?"
2205
01:54:45,750 --> 01:54:48,917
(inaudible)
2206
01:54:48,999 --> 01:54:51,875
I'm always the witch.
2207
01:54:51,958 --> 01:54:54,667
-I think, what a horrible,
horrible thing.
-(flames roar)
2208
01:54:54,750 --> 01:54:58,208
And picture the flames
coming up around me,
2209
01:54:58,291 --> 01:55:02,166
and wondering how
someone could do that
to someone else.
2210
01:55:03,458 --> 01:55:06,166
It appalled me
and it fascinated me.
2211
01:55:11,458 --> 01:55:16,458
It reminds me of taking
a tour of death row.
2212
01:55:16,541 --> 01:55:20,917
First, it was the area
where the visitors watch.
2213
01:55:20,999 --> 01:55:23,375
And then,
they took us around
2214
01:55:23,458 --> 01:55:26,458
to go right into
the execution room.
2215
01:55:26,541 --> 01:55:30,291
This wooden chair
with leather belts.
2216
01:55:31,917 --> 01:55:34,375
I did picture
myself there.
2217
01:55:34,458 --> 01:55:37,541
♪ ♪
2218
01:55:39,500 --> 01:55:41,708
Narrator:
Ted Bundy, Johnny Garrett,
2219
01:55:41,792 --> 01:55:45,041
Marie Moore, Jonathan, me.
2220
01:55:45,124 --> 01:55:47,416
Could any of us
become a murderer?
2221
01:55:47,500 --> 01:55:50,750
Could anyone in the world
become a murderer?
2222
01:55:50,833 --> 01:55:52,416
I think so.
2223
01:55:52,500 --> 01:55:57,291
Murderers are made,
not born.
2224
01:55:57,375 --> 01:56:00,208
The more we understand
about the genesis
of violence,
2225
01:56:00,291 --> 01:56:04,083
the harder it is
to draw a line between
guilt and innocence,
2226
01:56:04,166 --> 01:56:06,041
sanity and insanity.
2227
01:56:07,041 --> 01:56:08,833
(click, electricity zapping)
2228
01:56:08,917 --> 01:56:10,541
Dorothy:
As human beings,
we struggle to cope
2229
01:56:10,625 --> 01:56:12,124
with the need
for protection,
2230
01:56:12,208 --> 01:56:13,708
the desire for revenge,
2231
01:56:13,792 --> 01:56:15,875
and decency and morality.
2232
01:56:15,958 --> 01:56:19,124
But to understand
sometimes means to forgive,
2233
01:56:19,208 --> 01:56:23,208
and these days,
people aren't in a
very forgiving mood.
2234
01:56:23,291 --> 01:56:25,083
Maybe Ted Bundy was right.
2235
01:56:25,166 --> 01:56:28,792
We are all far more
curious about what
the murderer did,
2236
01:56:28,875 --> 01:56:30,458
the gory details
of the crime,
2237
01:56:30,541 --> 01:56:32,999
than about why they did it.
2238
01:56:33,083 --> 01:56:35,792
It's the act of murder
that fascinates us
2239
01:56:35,875 --> 01:56:38,458
and tickles our
own limbic systems.
2240
01:56:38,541 --> 01:56:41,041
No wonder people fight
for seats at executions.
2241
01:56:41,124 --> 01:56:42,999
(fireworks blasting)
2242
01:56:43,083 --> 01:56:46,208
Is that, at least in part,
why I do the work I do?
2243
01:56:46,291 --> 01:56:48,583
-(projector clicking)
-Maybe.
2244
01:56:48,667 --> 01:56:50,875
I wouldn't be surprised.
2245
01:56:53,375 --> 01:56:55,291
(projector stops)
2246
01:56:56,708 --> 01:56:59,792
♪ ♪
2247
01:57:25,999 --> 01:57:29,124
♪ ♪
161431
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