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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:15,883 --> 00:00:19,623 This film is about the Achilles heel of capitalism, 2 00:00:19,687 --> 00:00:21,457 how human nature drives 3 00:00:21,522 --> 00:00:23,892 the economy to crisis after crisis 4 00:00:23,957 --> 00:00:26,827 time and time again. 5 00:00:26,894 --> 00:00:31,074 Every generation thinks it's smarter than its parents and its grandparents, 6 00:00:31,132 --> 00:00:34,802 and it never proves to be the case. 7 00:00:34,868 --> 00:00:38,108 What happens is a crisis fades into memory 8 00:00:38,172 --> 00:00:40,242 and then it becomes history. 9 00:00:41,109 --> 00:00:42,739 That is the reason we often give 10 00:00:42,810 --> 00:00:45,850 for why we study history and why we teach history 11 00:00:45,913 --> 00:00:50,683 is to not have to repeat the mistakes of the past. 12 00:00:50,751 --> 00:00:54,821 You ever seen the State of the Union address where the president comes on and says, 13 00:00:54,888 --> 00:00:57,628 "Guys, we're fucked." 14 00:00:57,691 --> 00:01:00,391 These booms and busts will always be with us. 15 00:01:00,461 --> 00:01:03,161 It's in human nature that they would be with us. 16 00:01:05,266 --> 00:01:07,766 And I've said before, Mr. Deputy Speaker, 17 00:01:07,835 --> 00:01:09,935 "No return to boom and bust." 18 00:01:10,003 --> 00:01:11,673 ( all cheering ) 19 00:01:11,739 --> 00:01:13,869 ( footsteps ) 20 00:01:13,941 --> 00:01:17,181 The human strategies we're seeing in real markets 21 00:01:17,245 --> 00:01:18,975 are just evolutionarily really old. 22 00:01:19,046 --> 00:01:22,376 They're kind of leftover the strategies from 35 million years ago. 23 00:01:24,952 --> 00:01:26,822 WILLEM H. BUITER: It is very hard to, eh, 24 00:01:26,887 --> 00:01:28,817 understand why economists 25 00:01:28,889 --> 00:01:33,329 focus on models in which crises could not occur. 26 00:01:35,696 --> 00:01:39,526 They run the economy based on science fiction models. 27 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,200 That's why they had no idea this crisis was coming 28 00:01:42,270 --> 00:01:44,410 because they ignored banks, debt, and money. 29 00:01:45,439 --> 00:01:47,279 ( clattering hooves ) 30 00:01:49,743 --> 00:01:51,583 GEORGE MAGNUS: We always thought how lucky we were 31 00:01:51,645 --> 00:01:55,475 that we never actually had to live through in the 1929 crash 32 00:01:55,549 --> 00:01:57,319 and the 1930s Great Depression, 33 00:01:57,385 --> 00:01:59,715 because we are cleverer now 34 00:01:59,787 --> 00:02:02,587 and we know how to avoid these kinds of accidents, 35 00:02:02,656 --> 00:02:05,456 and actually, a lot of economists 36 00:02:05,526 --> 00:02:08,856 were absolutely adamant that the worst would not happen 37 00:02:08,929 --> 00:02:11,799 because we know how to deal with these things. 38 00:02:11,865 --> 00:02:16,235 And, of course, the truth is, we didn't know how to deal with them. 39 00:02:16,304 --> 00:02:19,374 TERRY JONES: In 1928, President Calvin Coolidge 40 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,810 gave his State of the Union address 41 00:02:21,875 --> 00:02:23,835 in the following terms: 42 00:02:23,911 --> 00:02:25,351 In the domestic field, 43 00:02:25,413 --> 00:02:27,353 there is tranquility 44 00:02:27,415 --> 00:02:29,215 and contentment... 45 00:02:29,283 --> 00:02:30,783 and the highest record 46 00:02:30,851 --> 00:02:33,621 of years of prosperity, 47 00:02:33,687 --> 00:02:38,487 the great wealth created by our enterprises and industry, 48 00:02:38,559 --> 00:02:41,899 and saved by our economy, 49 00:02:41,962 --> 00:02:46,232 has had the widest distribution among our own people. 50 00:02:46,300 --> 00:02:49,170 The country can regard the present 51 00:02:49,237 --> 00:02:50,967 with satisfaction 52 00:02:51,038 --> 00:02:53,708 and anticipate the future 53 00:02:53,774 --> 00:02:55,644 with optimism. 54 00:02:55,709 --> 00:02:57,549 ( all applaud ) 55 00:03:02,182 --> 00:03:06,522 ( singing ) 56 00:03:06,587 --> 00:03:08,717 TERRY JONES: He didn't know what we know now, 57 00:03:08,789 --> 00:03:11,759 that the United States was about to suffer 58 00:03:11,825 --> 00:03:15,895 the worst economic disaster in its then history. 59 00:03:23,604 --> 00:03:26,614 Our economy's healthy and vigorous, 60 00:03:26,674 --> 00:03:30,644 and growing faster than other major industrialized nations. 61 00:03:33,347 --> 00:03:36,477 The American people have turned in an economic performance 62 00:03:36,550 --> 00:03:38,450 that is the envy of the world. 63 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,520 TERRY JONES: He didn't know what we know now, 64 00:03:42,590 --> 00:03:46,130 that the worst crisis ever to hit the Western economies 65 00:03:46,193 --> 00:03:48,833 was just around the corner. 66 00:03:51,031 --> 00:03:53,331 The crisis of 2008 67 00:03:53,401 --> 00:03:56,541 is often referred to as the subprime crash. 68 00:03:56,604 --> 00:04:00,474 In less than 15 years, there was a huge rise 69 00:04:00,541 --> 00:04:02,681 in lending mortgages to people 70 00:04:02,743 --> 00:04:04,753 who basically couldn't afford them. 71 00:04:04,812 --> 00:04:07,482 Ladies and gentlemen, Harvey Rosen, 72 00:04:07,548 --> 00:04:10,178 Chairman of the White House Council of economic advisers 73 00:04:10,250 --> 00:04:12,950 speaking in 2007. 74 00:04:13,020 --> 00:04:16,020 The main that innovations in the mortgage market 75 00:04:16,089 --> 00:04:18,629 have done over the past 30 years is to let in 76 00:04:18,692 --> 00:04:21,632 the excluded, the young, 77 00:04:21,695 --> 00:04:23,695 the discriminated against, 78 00:04:23,764 --> 00:04:25,934 the people without a lot of money in the bank 79 00:04:25,999 --> 00:04:27,699 to use for a down payment. 80 00:04:27,768 --> 00:04:31,238 ( muttering agreement and affirmation ) 81 00:04:31,305 --> 00:04:35,575 JONES: This reckless lending to people who couldn't afford a mortgage 82 00:04:35,643 --> 00:04:38,553 became known as subprime lending, 83 00:04:38,612 --> 00:04:40,252 but the banks insisted 84 00:04:40,314 --> 00:04:44,654 they had eliminated risks by statistical processing. 85 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,590 When you look at how banks managed risks, 86 00:04:48,656 --> 00:04:50,016 particularly before the crisis-- 87 00:04:50,090 --> 00:04:52,560 this is very interesting, and quite funny actually. 88 00:04:52,626 --> 00:04:54,796 What they did was to take risky assets, 89 00:04:54,862 --> 00:04:58,272 such as, um, junk mortgages, 90 00:04:58,332 --> 00:04:59,872 slice them into little bits, 91 00:04:59,933 --> 00:05:02,903 repackage them after mixing them with all the risky bits, 92 00:05:02,970 --> 00:05:06,240 and then sell them on to other banks and financial institutions. 93 00:05:06,306 --> 00:05:08,476 And so these risks became 94 00:05:08,542 --> 00:05:10,842 uh, dispersed in the financial markets, 95 00:05:10,911 --> 00:05:13,681 and nobody really knew anymore where the risks were 96 00:05:13,747 --> 00:05:17,117 or for that matter, nobody knew exactly whether the... 97 00:05:17,184 --> 00:05:20,594 package of financial products that he was buying, 98 00:05:20,654 --> 00:05:23,094 that he was investing in, was risky, 99 00:05:23,156 --> 00:05:26,086 whether it was very risky or not risky at all. 100 00:05:26,159 --> 00:05:28,699 JONES: They sold these packages to investors 101 00:05:28,762 --> 00:05:31,472 as very low-risk products. 102 00:05:31,532 --> 00:05:33,902 Banking organizations of all sizes have made 103 00:05:33,967 --> 00:05:36,537 substantial strides over the past two decades 104 00:05:36,604 --> 00:05:39,514 in their ability to measure and manage risks. 105 00:05:39,573 --> 00:05:42,113 So, because we could not observe risks anymore, 106 00:05:42,175 --> 00:05:44,745 we were telling ourselves, "There is no risk." 107 00:05:44,812 --> 00:05:46,782 What's even worse when you do this, 108 00:05:46,847 --> 00:05:48,877 risks become connected with each other. 109 00:05:48,949 --> 00:05:51,789 You don't know exactly how the risks are connected, 110 00:05:51,852 --> 00:05:53,122 but they are. 111 00:05:53,186 --> 00:05:56,086 In the pre-crisis period, 112 00:05:56,156 --> 00:05:57,956 we told ourselves a story 113 00:05:58,025 --> 00:05:59,855 about the bigger banks 114 00:05:59,927 --> 00:06:04,097 being able to spread their risk across their balance sheet, 115 00:06:04,164 --> 00:06:07,274 which would then 116 00:06:07,334 --> 00:06:09,544 allow us as regulators 117 00:06:09,603 --> 00:06:13,043 to enable them to run with lower safety margins. 118 00:06:13,106 --> 00:06:15,236 Everybody was happy and confident 119 00:06:15,308 --> 00:06:18,808 that the mortgage market had become more efficient than ever. 120 00:06:18,879 --> 00:06:21,449 And I have said before, Mr. Deputy Speaker, 121 00:06:21,515 --> 00:06:24,515 no return to boom and bust. 122 00:06:24,585 --> 00:06:27,885 Our economy is healthy and vigorous, 123 00:06:27,955 --> 00:06:32,025 and growing faster than other major industrialized nations. 124 00:06:32,092 --> 00:06:34,132 Everyone was convinced 125 00:06:34,194 --> 00:06:36,564 that this time, it's different. 126 00:06:36,630 --> 00:06:40,230 ZVI BODIE: The subprime crisis of 2008 127 00:06:40,300 --> 00:06:43,700 was essentially a bubble bursting. 128 00:06:43,771 --> 00:06:46,741 They lent lots of money against houses. 129 00:06:46,807 --> 00:06:50,777 I've seen them in Gary, Indiana, in Detroit, Michigan, 130 00:06:50,844 --> 00:06:53,884 that you can now buy for ten grand. 131 00:06:53,947 --> 00:06:57,377 But they'd lent u-usually about a hundred grand, 132 00:06:57,451 --> 00:07:01,821 so that poor people who'd never, ever owned a house before could own a house. 133 00:07:01,889 --> 00:07:03,919 When we take your income and your wealth, 134 00:07:03,991 --> 00:07:06,631 you measure 620 on the FICO scale. 135 00:07:06,694 --> 00:07:08,504 620? that's great. 136 00:07:08,562 --> 00:07:11,672 No, no, no, no, no. You see, we financial wizards 137 00:07:11,732 --> 00:07:15,102 reckon 850 on the FICO scale is good. 138 00:07:15,168 --> 00:07:18,538 And 300 is very, very bad. 139 00:07:18,606 --> 00:07:22,576 You see, most people score about 725 on the FICO scale, 140 00:07:22,643 --> 00:07:26,313 and I'm afraid 620 is usually our cut-off point. 141 00:07:26,379 --> 00:07:29,779 Oh, dear, so, I won't get my interest on the mortgage 142 00:07:29,850 --> 00:07:31,590 ( laughing ) Not so fast. 143 00:07:31,652 --> 00:07:35,522 You could still be eligible for a stated-income verified assets loan. 144 00:07:35,589 --> 00:07:37,319 What's that? 145 00:07:37,390 --> 00:07:40,990 That's where you state your income and we verify your wealth. 146 00:07:41,061 --> 00:07:42,931 Well, I'm worth one million dollars. 147 00:07:42,996 --> 00:07:44,296 Oh... 148 00:07:44,364 --> 00:07:45,634 Can you prove it? 149 00:07:45,699 --> 00:07:48,539 Not really. 150 00:07:48,602 --> 00:07:50,942 Look, we really want your money. 151 00:07:51,004 --> 00:07:54,114 Uh-uh, I mean, we really want you to have this interest-only mortgage. 152 00:07:54,174 --> 00:07:57,684 So, we can go down the stated-income, stated-assets route. 153 00:07:57,745 --> 00:07:59,305 What's that? 154 00:07:59,379 --> 00:08:03,349 You state your income and assets and we don't check them. 155 00:08:03,416 --> 00:08:05,016 Great! 156 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,090 Well, eh, then-then that's all signed and sealed. 157 00:08:11,158 --> 00:08:14,158 Believe it or not, this scene or something like it, 158 00:08:14,227 --> 00:08:17,027 must have been played out numberless times. 159 00:08:17,097 --> 00:08:19,897 In 2004 to 2005, 160 00:08:19,967 --> 00:08:22,697 more than a third of all mortgages 161 00:08:22,770 --> 00:08:25,570 were no income, no jobs or assets, 162 00:08:25,639 --> 00:08:27,639 that were nicknamed "Ninja Loan." 163 00:08:27,708 --> 00:08:30,008 Hiyah! Hiyah! 164 00:08:31,378 --> 00:08:32,548 That's what this was about. 165 00:08:32,613 --> 00:08:34,013 It was about forcing loans 166 00:08:34,081 --> 00:08:35,981 onto people who would never repay them, 167 00:08:36,049 --> 00:08:39,719 who would end up getting foreclosed, 168 00:08:39,787 --> 00:08:43,387 in order to earn a fee on the origination 169 00:08:43,456 --> 00:08:47,286 and another fee when they were sold to some sucker who would take the loss. 170 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,600 The whole thing becomes, eventually, a bit of a con trick 171 00:08:50,664 --> 00:08:55,504 because, everybody thought that asset prices would continue to go up. 172 00:08:55,569 --> 00:08:58,939 The unimaginable happened. 173 00:08:59,006 --> 00:09:01,466 Housing prices started to fall. 174 00:09:01,541 --> 00:09:04,981 That signaled to them that they could never pay that debt, 175 00:09:05,045 --> 00:09:07,405 because they were relying on the house price to rise 176 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:08,880 as we all do in these bubbles. 177 00:09:08,949 --> 00:09:12,419 And then, um, like a, string of dominoes, 178 00:09:12,485 --> 00:09:13,745 the very risky lenders 179 00:09:13,821 --> 00:09:15,761 knocked over the risky lenders, 180 00:09:15,823 --> 00:09:17,793 knocked over the normal lenders, 181 00:09:17,858 --> 00:09:20,858 and then they all fell apart. 182 00:09:27,668 --> 00:09:29,498 * Ain't got no home * 183 00:09:29,569 --> 00:09:31,439 * Ain't got no shoes * 184 00:09:31,504 --> 00:09:33,814 * Ain't got no money * 185 00:09:33,874 --> 00:09:35,714 * Ain't got no class * 186 00:09:35,776 --> 00:09:37,746 * Ain't got no skirts * 187 00:09:37,811 --> 00:09:39,981 * Ain't got no sweater * 188 00:09:40,047 --> 00:09:42,277 * Ain't got no perfume * 189 00:09:42,349 --> 00:09:43,419 * Ain't got no bed * 190 00:09:43,483 --> 00:09:45,053 * Ain't got no man * 191 00:09:45,118 --> 00:09:48,788 JONES: The banks were taking on more and more risk, 192 00:09:48,856 --> 00:09:51,556 Investing in the financial economy 193 00:09:51,625 --> 00:09:54,795 instead of the real economy. 194 00:09:54,862 --> 00:09:57,772 The financial economy, as it's become, 195 00:09:57,831 --> 00:10:00,831 is essentially making money out of money, 196 00:10:00,901 --> 00:10:03,971 instead of investing in firms and companies 197 00:10:04,037 --> 00:10:08,307 and contributing to the real economy. 198 00:10:08,375 --> 00:10:11,775 So what happened to the banks and the insurance companies 199 00:10:11,845 --> 00:10:14,375 that got involved in the subprime lending? 200 00:10:14,447 --> 00:10:18,487 You can think of the-the the end of 2007. What happened? 201 00:10:18,551 --> 00:10:22,421 The bank starts looking a little more carefully at their balance sheet. 202 00:10:22,489 --> 00:10:25,789 They look at the assets they got and they say, 203 00:10:25,859 --> 00:10:28,859 "Wow, a lot of those assets are trash. 204 00:10:28,929 --> 00:10:31,059 "Okay, we know that these things are bad, 205 00:10:31,131 --> 00:10:32,601 "a high percentage of them, 206 00:10:32,666 --> 00:10:35,866 "and, um, some of our assets 207 00:10:35,936 --> 00:10:39,036 "are the I-O-U's of other banks. 208 00:10:39,106 --> 00:10:40,966 I wonder if their balance sheets are as bad as ours." 209 00:10:41,041 --> 00:10:42,641 And they started to think, 210 00:10:42,710 --> 00:10:45,650 "They probably are because we're all doing the same stuff." 211 00:10:45,713 --> 00:10:48,783 And then they say, " You know, maybe when that loan comes due, 212 00:10:48,849 --> 00:10:50,279 "we should call it in, 213 00:10:50,350 --> 00:10:52,050 "say we're not going to renew it anymore, 214 00:10:52,119 --> 00:10:54,019 "because we think, maybe, 215 00:10:54,087 --> 00:10:57,727 you could get in trouble and we wont get paid." 216 00:10:57,791 --> 00:10:59,731 Suddenly, all the banks started doing this. 217 00:10:59,793 --> 00:11:01,433 And, basically, 218 00:11:01,494 --> 00:11:05,234 that is when the global credit markets froze up. 219 00:11:05,298 --> 00:11:08,038 Banks wouldn't lend each other anymore. 220 00:11:08,101 --> 00:11:11,601 And so that turned into a massive liquidity crisis, 221 00:11:11,671 --> 00:11:13,671 and that is what set off the whole thing. 222 00:11:13,741 --> 00:11:16,041 So this layering of debt on debt, 223 00:11:16,109 --> 00:11:18,909 financial institutions owing other financial institutions, 224 00:11:18,979 --> 00:11:21,479 turns out to be extremely dangerous. 225 00:11:21,548 --> 00:11:22,978 News you're waking up to: 226 00:11:23,050 --> 00:11:25,090 the American investment bank Lehman Brothers 227 00:11:25,152 --> 00:11:27,422 has filed for bankruptcy in New York. 228 00:11:27,487 --> 00:11:29,587 That's happened in the last few minutes. 229 00:11:29,656 --> 00:11:31,086 It means the Wall Street institution, 230 00:11:31,158 --> 00:11:33,628 which has been in business for 150 years 231 00:11:33,693 --> 00:11:35,263 and survived the Great Depression, 232 00:11:35,328 --> 00:11:38,968 is now the most high-profile casualty of the credit crunch. 233 00:11:39,032 --> 00:11:42,142 JONES: It was not only Lehman Brothers that went bust. 234 00:11:42,202 --> 00:11:45,312 In the U.S., Citigroup were rescued by the U.S government 235 00:11:45,372 --> 00:11:48,982 with guarantees to the tune of 300 billion dollars. 236 00:11:49,042 --> 00:11:54,752 AIG were bailed out for a 182 billion dollars. 237 00:11:54,815 --> 00:11:57,345 * The best things in life are free * 238 00:11:57,417 --> 00:12:01,017 * But you can give 'em to the birds and bees * 239 00:12:07,094 --> 00:12:10,204 Bear Sterns was taken over by J.P. Morgan 240 00:12:10,263 --> 00:12:12,403 after the U.S. government secured them 241 00:12:12,465 --> 00:12:15,835 with a 30 billion dollar guarantee. 242 00:12:15,903 --> 00:12:17,273 Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, 243 00:12:17,337 --> 00:12:19,137 government-backed mortgage lenders 244 00:12:19,206 --> 00:12:21,806 who were involved in the sub-prime mortgage lending, 245 00:12:21,875 --> 00:12:25,575 were rescued by the Federal Housing Finance Agency. 246 00:12:25,645 --> 00:12:29,375 Merrill Lynch was taken over by the Bank of America. 247 00:12:29,449 --> 00:12:32,189 In the UK, the Royal Bank of Scotland 248 00:12:32,252 --> 00:12:34,722 was bailed out by the UK government 249 00:12:34,788 --> 00:12:37,018 for 20 billion pounds, 250 00:12:37,090 --> 00:12:41,390 HBOS was bailed out for 13 billion pounds, 251 00:12:41,461 --> 00:12:43,901 and Lloyds for 4 billion pounds, 252 00:12:43,964 --> 00:12:49,844 on exactly the same day, October the 13th, 2008. 253 00:12:49,903 --> 00:12:53,373 * Money don't get everything, it's true * 254 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,510 * But what it don't get, I can't use * 255 00:12:58,645 --> 00:13:01,205 Sir, another insurance company is going under. 256 00:13:01,281 --> 00:13:05,351 Now determining most prudent move for insurance company. 257 00:13:05,418 --> 00:13:07,118 ( chicken crowing ) 258 00:13:22,202 --> 00:13:23,202 Bailout! 259 00:13:23,270 --> 00:13:24,970 The most prudent move is a bailout! 260 00:13:25,038 --> 00:13:29,008 I remember sitting, um... uh, in a room. 261 00:13:29,076 --> 00:13:31,536 Bit like this one, at the Treasury, 262 00:13:31,611 --> 00:13:33,251 back in 2008, 263 00:13:33,313 --> 00:13:36,353 around the time of the Lehman crisis. 264 00:13:36,416 --> 00:13:37,946 We sat there. 265 00:13:38,018 --> 00:13:41,318 During the first half hour of that meeting, 266 00:13:41,388 --> 00:13:43,188 the share price of 267 00:13:43,256 --> 00:13:45,426 one of the biggest banks in this country 268 00:13:45,492 --> 00:13:48,162 fell by 50 percent. 269 00:13:48,228 --> 00:13:50,358 In the 2nd half hour of that meeting, 270 00:13:50,430 --> 00:13:52,270 the share price of that same bank 271 00:13:52,332 --> 00:13:54,402 rose 50 percent. 272 00:13:54,467 --> 00:13:57,567 We knew at that point, this wasn't Kansas anymore. 273 00:13:57,637 --> 00:14:01,667 I mean, if the 2008 crash didn't wake people up, 274 00:14:01,741 --> 00:14:03,381 um, I don't know what will. 275 00:14:03,443 --> 00:14:06,013 ( yawns ) 276 00:14:07,580 --> 00:14:09,020 Where do we go from here? 277 00:14:09,082 --> 00:14:12,052 How do we deal with these financial crisis? 278 00:14:12,119 --> 00:14:14,519 And one of the most important first steps 279 00:14:14,587 --> 00:14:16,717 is understanding where we've come from. 280 00:14:16,789 --> 00:14:18,629 Financial crises 281 00:14:18,691 --> 00:14:21,631 aren't some new thing that we're going into now. 282 00:14:21,694 --> 00:14:23,464 We've had many financial crises. 283 00:14:23,530 --> 00:14:26,470 The 19th century is filled with financial crises, 284 00:14:26,533 --> 00:14:29,143 and even the 18th and 17th and 16th century, 285 00:14:29,202 --> 00:14:31,972 and when you start looking at all these different examples 286 00:14:32,039 --> 00:14:35,939 of economies and their financial systems and their crashes, 287 00:14:36,009 --> 00:14:38,049 you start to get a much better understanding 288 00:14:38,111 --> 00:14:40,881 of what financial crisis is about. 289 00:14:40,948 --> 00:14:42,378 The seeds that were sown 290 00:14:42,449 --> 00:14:44,819 were the same seeds that were sown 291 00:14:44,884 --> 00:14:48,194 in all previous crises. 292 00:14:48,255 --> 00:14:52,285 So, if we look to what works and what doesn't, 293 00:14:52,359 --> 00:14:56,559 no better lessons are there than those from history. 294 00:15:11,044 --> 00:15:14,854 Tulip Mania started back in 1562, 295 00:15:14,914 --> 00:15:18,654 when a ship from Constantinople docked in Antwerp. 296 00:15:18,718 --> 00:15:21,618 Aboard was a cargo of tulips, 297 00:15:21,688 --> 00:15:25,058 the first to be seen in Europe. 298 00:15:25,125 --> 00:15:28,125 * Oh, tulips, precious tulips * 299 00:15:28,195 --> 00:15:31,095 * I kiss you with my two lips * 300 00:15:31,164 --> 00:15:34,334 * Make me healthy, make me wealthy * 301 00:15:34,401 --> 00:15:38,111 * Tulips precious tulips 302 00:15:39,672 --> 00:15:42,512 The tulips proved to be a sensation 303 00:15:42,575 --> 00:15:45,305 amongst the rich merchants of Amsterdam, 304 00:15:45,378 --> 00:15:48,648 then embarking on their golden era. 305 00:15:48,715 --> 00:15:51,175 The merchants built grand houses 306 00:15:51,251 --> 00:15:53,091 surrounded by flower gardens, 307 00:15:53,153 --> 00:15:56,623 and the star of the show was the tulip. 308 00:15:58,191 --> 00:16:01,761 Tulips grew in prestige and popularity, 309 00:16:01,828 --> 00:16:04,258 and prices began to soar. 310 00:16:04,331 --> 00:16:08,371 By 1636, a tulip bulb could be worth 311 00:16:08,435 --> 00:16:10,965 a new carriage, two grey horses, 312 00:16:11,038 --> 00:16:13,038 and a complete harness. 313 00:16:13,106 --> 00:16:15,776 Some bulbs were reportedly changing hands 314 00:16:15,842 --> 00:16:18,082 over ten times a day. 315 00:16:18,145 --> 00:16:20,745 It seemed like everyone could make money 316 00:16:20,813 --> 00:16:23,053 if only they bought tulips. 317 00:16:23,116 --> 00:16:26,416 A kind of euphoria gripped everybody. 318 00:16:26,486 --> 00:16:29,886 But, on February the 5th, 1637, 319 00:16:29,956 --> 00:16:31,556 it all came to an end. 320 00:16:31,624 --> 00:16:35,204 At a tulip auction in Haarlem, in the Netherlands, 321 00:16:35,262 --> 00:16:38,072 only the sellers of tulip turned up. 322 00:16:38,131 --> 00:16:40,331 There were no buyers. 323 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,700 Harlem was at that time in the grip of Bubonic plague, 324 00:16:44,771 --> 00:16:49,311 so perhaps that's why no one wanted to go out and buy tulips. 325 00:16:49,376 --> 00:16:51,206 But the damage was done. 326 00:16:51,278 --> 00:16:54,178 The bottom fell out of the tulip market. 327 00:16:54,247 --> 00:16:58,447 Bulbs that had commanded the price of 5,000 guilders 328 00:16:58,518 --> 00:17:00,548 sold for fifty. 329 00:17:00,620 --> 00:17:05,130 This is what economists call a bubble. 330 00:17:05,192 --> 00:17:08,762 Well, a bubble is a financial episode 331 00:17:08,828 --> 00:17:10,698 in which the price of assets, 332 00:17:10,763 --> 00:17:14,433 whether it's tulips, or equities, or gold, 333 00:17:14,501 --> 00:17:16,771 basically becomes completely detached 334 00:17:16,836 --> 00:17:19,236 from any intrinsic value. 335 00:17:19,306 --> 00:17:22,206 Being in a bubble, is like... 336 00:17:22,275 --> 00:17:27,405 yeah, it's a state of extreme hope and excitement and stupidity. 337 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,720 And it can continue for as long as people believe 338 00:17:30,783 --> 00:17:33,423 that there is something magical or new 339 00:17:33,486 --> 00:17:36,056 about the valuation today. 340 00:17:36,123 --> 00:17:38,063 In every boom-and-bust cycle, 341 00:17:38,125 --> 00:17:40,825 there is a period of exceptionalism. 342 00:17:40,893 --> 00:17:42,163 "This time, it's different. 343 00:17:42,229 --> 00:17:43,799 Everything is different." 344 00:17:43,863 --> 00:17:45,773 And, there's always a cool excuse, 345 00:17:45,832 --> 00:17:49,642 and things like, "Well, you know, our demographics are different." 346 00:17:49,702 --> 00:17:53,012 Or, you know, "This time, interest costs really are very low." 347 00:17:53,072 --> 00:17:54,542 Or "inflation has been solved." 348 00:17:54,607 --> 00:17:57,207 Or, "Oh, there's a boom in gold mining." 349 00:17:57,277 --> 00:18:00,007 You know, tulips-- tulips were the first ones. 350 00:18:00,079 --> 00:18:03,749 "This is the first time you'll ever be able to buy these tulips. 351 00:18:03,816 --> 00:18:05,346 You must get in now." 352 00:18:05,418 --> 00:18:07,688 There's always a reason why you'd want 353 00:18:07,754 --> 00:18:12,334 to suspend your rational faculties and buy into this. 354 00:18:12,392 --> 00:18:14,332 Normally, it's because you look around, 355 00:18:14,394 --> 00:18:16,134 and you see everybody else doing it. 356 00:18:22,135 --> 00:18:24,795 In 1711, the British government 357 00:18:24,871 --> 00:18:28,411 was deep in debt, to the tune of 9 million pounds. 358 00:18:28,475 --> 00:18:30,235 A couple of entrepreneurs 359 00:18:30,310 --> 00:18:32,750 named Edward Harley and John Blunt 360 00:18:32,812 --> 00:18:35,552 devised a scheme to rescue the government. 361 00:18:36,416 --> 00:18:38,386 Instead of repayment, 362 00:18:38,451 --> 00:18:40,491 anyone to whom the government owed money 363 00:18:40,553 --> 00:18:42,823 was obliged to accept shares 364 00:18:42,889 --> 00:18:46,389 in a company called The South Sea Company. 365 00:18:46,459 --> 00:18:48,659 At the same time, the South Sea Company 366 00:18:48,728 --> 00:18:50,628 was given the exclusive right 367 00:18:50,697 --> 00:18:53,997 to the monopoly of trade with South America. 368 00:18:54,066 --> 00:18:56,136 Conveniently overlooked 369 00:18:56,203 --> 00:18:57,573 was the fact that Spain, 370 00:18:57,637 --> 00:18:59,537 with whom England was at war, 371 00:18:59,606 --> 00:19:02,206 controlled all the trade with South America 372 00:19:02,275 --> 00:19:05,775 and had done so for 200 years. 373 00:19:05,845 --> 00:19:07,305 But hopes were high, 374 00:19:07,380 --> 00:19:10,420 and the scheme was a phenomenal success. 375 00:19:11,451 --> 00:19:14,791 In 1713, the war ended. 376 00:19:16,989 --> 00:19:21,029 Spain then allowed Britain precisely one ship a year 377 00:19:21,093 --> 00:19:23,533 of no more than 500 tons 378 00:19:23,596 --> 00:19:25,966 to trade with South America, 379 00:19:26,032 --> 00:19:27,732 and one quarter of the proceeds 380 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:29,870 was to go to the King of Spain-- 381 00:19:29,936 --> 00:19:34,166 not exactly a winning scheme for a bankrupt country. 382 00:19:36,676 --> 00:19:40,306 And, in 1718, the war with Spain broke out again, 383 00:19:40,380 --> 00:19:44,650 and the company's assets inside South America were seized, 384 00:19:44,717 --> 00:19:47,947 and any prospects of profit from trade 385 00:19:48,020 --> 00:19:49,860 disappeared overnight. 386 00:19:49,922 --> 00:19:53,362 But, unbelievably, hopes were still high. 387 00:19:53,426 --> 00:19:55,896 The South Sea Company talked up the value 388 00:19:55,962 --> 00:19:58,772 of its potential trade with South America, 389 00:19:58,831 --> 00:20:01,501 aided by politicians and members of the government, 390 00:20:01,568 --> 00:20:03,498 who were in on the act, 391 00:20:03,570 --> 00:20:05,510 and the price of shares rose 392 00:20:05,572 --> 00:20:08,382 from 128 pounds in January 393 00:20:08,441 --> 00:20:11,081 to 330 pounds in March, 394 00:20:11,143 --> 00:20:13,713 890 pounds in early June, 395 00:20:13,780 --> 00:20:17,920 and finally 1000 pounds in early August. 396 00:20:17,984 --> 00:20:19,724 All good bubbles have to burst, 397 00:20:19,786 --> 00:20:23,656 and the South Sea bubble burst in a spectacular fashion. 398 00:20:25,392 --> 00:20:27,092 From 1000 pounds in August, 399 00:20:27,159 --> 00:20:30,729 the stock fell to a hundred by the end of the year. 400 00:20:30,797 --> 00:20:32,767 With the collapse of the stock price, 401 00:20:32,832 --> 00:20:34,602 thousands of people were ruined, 402 00:20:34,667 --> 00:20:36,497 including Sir Isaac Newton, 403 00:20:36,569 --> 00:20:38,339 who lost the equivalent 404 00:20:38,405 --> 00:20:40,535 of 2.4 million pounds, 405 00:20:40,607 --> 00:20:43,237 and about which, his niece reported 406 00:20:43,310 --> 00:20:45,450 he never liked to talk about. 407 00:20:45,512 --> 00:20:49,122 Newton said, "I calculate the movement of stars, 408 00:20:49,181 --> 00:20:51,781 but not the madness of men." 409 00:20:51,851 --> 00:20:54,821 I hope he included himself in that. 410 00:20:54,887 --> 00:20:57,687 The South Sea Bubble is a perfect example 411 00:20:57,757 --> 00:21:00,427 of what is called euphoria. 412 00:21:00,493 --> 00:21:03,703 One of the things we have to control 413 00:21:03,763 --> 00:21:05,233 is this tendency 414 00:21:05,298 --> 00:21:08,538 for people to go through these periods, 415 00:21:08,601 --> 00:21:13,041 a sort of mass euphoria and mass pessimism. 416 00:21:13,105 --> 00:21:16,205 When people become very optimistic about the future 417 00:21:16,275 --> 00:21:18,345 and they project this optimism 418 00:21:18,411 --> 00:21:19,781 into the prices of assets, 419 00:21:19,846 --> 00:21:21,576 there can be an asset bubble. 420 00:21:21,648 --> 00:21:23,648 And prices go up, and when prices go up, 421 00:21:23,716 --> 00:21:26,216 people say, "Oh, seems like people are optimistic about the future. 422 00:21:26,285 --> 00:21:28,215 I should be optimistic too." 423 00:21:28,287 --> 00:21:31,417 And so I buy those assets, and that pushes the price up a little more. 424 00:21:31,491 --> 00:21:33,431 Prices move completely out of line 425 00:21:33,493 --> 00:21:34,933 with any sort of reality 426 00:21:34,994 --> 00:21:37,604 or any earnings basis or, in housing market, 427 00:21:37,664 --> 00:21:39,374 any sort of income basis, 428 00:21:39,432 --> 00:21:41,902 and it becomes a self-fulfilling bubble. 429 00:21:41,968 --> 00:21:44,798 If you think you're investing in tulips 430 00:21:44,871 --> 00:21:47,371 because you can always sell the tulips to somebody else 431 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,110 at a greater price, 432 00:21:50,176 --> 00:21:52,506 you're not investing, you're speculating. 433 00:21:53,746 --> 00:21:56,316 And there is a difference. 434 00:21:56,383 --> 00:21:59,853 One is... has a real impact on the economy, 435 00:21:59,919 --> 00:22:01,449 the other is just 436 00:22:01,521 --> 00:22:03,721 people handing money back and forth, 437 00:22:03,790 --> 00:22:05,990 and hoping, that after a while, 438 00:22:06,058 --> 00:22:08,998 when the music stops, they'll be the one 439 00:22:09,061 --> 00:22:11,661 who isn't holding the parcel, who is holding the money. 440 00:22:11,731 --> 00:22:14,971 And again, that's okay. Let them do that. 441 00:22:15,034 --> 00:22:18,104 But just don't do it with your family home and all your money. 442 00:22:18,170 --> 00:22:21,340 When you're in a bubble, you can't see outside of it, 443 00:22:21,408 --> 00:22:23,338 so there's no way 444 00:22:23,410 --> 00:22:25,710 of actually knowing or recognizing it as it's happening. 445 00:22:25,778 --> 00:22:28,418 It looks like success, it feels like success, 446 00:22:28,481 --> 00:22:29,481 which is even more dangerous. 447 00:22:29,549 --> 00:22:31,449 Bubbles of the past, 448 00:22:31,518 --> 00:22:33,948 you know how they ended. 449 00:22:34,020 --> 00:22:35,920 And, when they ended, 450 00:22:35,988 --> 00:22:37,788 you understood, where they had ended. 451 00:22:37,857 --> 00:22:39,727 This one hasn't ended yet, 452 00:22:39,792 --> 00:22:42,862 so it's completely different from your memory of the others. 453 00:22:42,929 --> 00:22:45,899 It's very hard to remind yourself of that 454 00:22:45,965 --> 00:22:47,565 in the boom times, 455 00:22:47,634 --> 00:22:49,674 because everyone else is making a lot of money, 456 00:22:49,736 --> 00:22:52,636 and you naturally wanna make a lot of money with them. 457 00:22:52,705 --> 00:22:55,235 And if you don't, in fact you're kind of a fool. 458 00:22:55,307 --> 00:23:00,647 It's one of the really great mysteries of economics 459 00:23:00,713 --> 00:23:02,653 that if everybody decides it's okay, 460 00:23:02,715 --> 00:23:04,415 it really is okay. 461 00:23:04,484 --> 00:23:06,594 And if everybody decides it's a disaster, 462 00:23:06,653 --> 00:23:08,093 it really is a disaster. 463 00:23:08,154 --> 00:23:11,694 So, everybody believing it is a certain way 464 00:23:11,758 --> 00:23:13,228 makes it a certain way. 465 00:23:13,292 --> 00:23:15,962 From the 1950s to the 1970s, 466 00:23:16,028 --> 00:23:17,758 John Kenneth Galbraith 467 00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:21,270 was probably the most famous economist in the world. 468 00:23:21,333 --> 00:23:24,703 Recurrent descent into insanity 469 00:23:24,771 --> 00:23:28,911 is not a wholly attractive feature of capitalism. 470 00:23:28,975 --> 00:23:32,105 J.K. Galbraith was vociferous about-- 471 00:23:32,178 --> 00:23:34,048 about speculative euphoria, 472 00:23:34,113 --> 00:23:36,623 and about why periods of speculative euphoria 473 00:23:36,683 --> 00:23:38,853 just keep on happening over periods of time. 474 00:23:38,918 --> 00:23:40,618 It's very much human behavior, 475 00:23:40,687 --> 00:23:43,957 but also our failure, uh, to be able to deal with 476 00:23:44,023 --> 00:23:47,063 the worst consequences of that euphoria. 477 00:23:47,126 --> 00:23:48,926 ( train chugging ) 478 00:23:57,236 --> 00:24:01,906 * You cannot lose with the railways * 479 00:24:01,974 --> 00:24:05,144 * They are the coming thing 480 00:24:05,211 --> 00:24:08,921 * So come and invest in the railways * 481 00:24:08,981 --> 00:24:12,181 * Great fortunes for all they will bring * 482 00:24:12,251 --> 00:24:13,791 TERRY JONES: In the 1840s, 483 00:24:13,853 --> 00:24:17,423 railways were promoted as foolproof investments. 484 00:24:17,490 --> 00:24:20,930 Shares in them could be bought for a 10 percent deposit. 485 00:24:20,993 --> 00:24:24,103 The snag was that the railway company reserved the right 486 00:24:24,163 --> 00:24:28,103 to call in the remainder at any time. 487 00:24:28,167 --> 00:24:31,037 Thousands of investors on modest incomes 488 00:24:31,103 --> 00:24:33,113 brought large numbers of shares 489 00:24:33,172 --> 00:24:36,482 while being only able to afford the deposit. 490 00:24:36,543 --> 00:24:40,953 Families put their entire savings into prospective companies 491 00:24:41,013 --> 00:24:43,853 and lost everything when the bubble burst, 492 00:24:43,916 --> 00:24:49,016 without knowing they took ten times more risk than was reasonable, 493 00:24:49,088 --> 00:24:52,558 and nobody prevented them from doing so. 494 00:24:54,761 --> 00:24:58,101 The disreputable history of financial euphoria 495 00:24:58,164 --> 00:25:00,604 goes on and on. 496 00:25:17,984 --> 00:25:20,694 TERRY JONES: The '20s was an age of prosperity, 497 00:25:20,753 --> 00:25:23,593 but the wealth wasn't sharedevenly 498 00:25:23,656 --> 00:25:25,256 throughout the population. 499 00:25:25,324 --> 00:25:29,134 In 1929, the top five percent of the population 500 00:25:29,195 --> 00:25:31,755 received approximately one third 501 00:25:31,831 --> 00:25:35,131 of all personal income. 502 00:25:35,201 --> 00:25:37,671 Now the richest five percent of humans 503 00:25:37,737 --> 00:25:39,507 can't eat more than the rest of us, 504 00:25:39,572 --> 00:25:43,782 so they are compelled to spend their money on luxury items 505 00:25:43,843 --> 00:25:46,613 such as property or invest in stocks, 506 00:25:46,679 --> 00:25:49,249 thereby hoping to increase their wealth. 507 00:25:49,315 --> 00:25:52,145 Not only the wealthy, but middle class Americans 508 00:25:52,218 --> 00:25:56,458 were displaying what John Kenneth Galbraith described as... 509 00:25:56,522 --> 00:25:59,662 an inordinate desire to get rich quickly 510 00:25:59,726 --> 00:26:03,026 with a minimum of physical effort. 511 00:26:03,095 --> 00:26:06,095 TERRY JONES: The Stock Exchange in New York boomed. 512 00:26:06,165 --> 00:26:10,865 In May 1928, the volume of shares reached 5 million, 513 00:26:10,937 --> 00:26:12,937 an all-time record. 514 00:26:14,106 --> 00:26:16,906 The trouble was that many investors 515 00:26:16,976 --> 00:26:18,976 weren't using their own money. 516 00:26:19,045 --> 00:26:21,975 They were borrowing money to buy stocks. 517 00:26:22,048 --> 00:26:26,318 This is known in the financial world as "buying on margin." 518 00:26:26,385 --> 00:26:28,655 TERRY JONES: Say you have two hundred dollars 519 00:26:28,721 --> 00:26:30,161 and you borrow eight hundred more 520 00:26:30,222 --> 00:26:33,392 to invest a thousand dollars in stocks. 521 00:26:33,459 --> 00:26:36,499 If the price of stocks goes up 30 percent, 522 00:26:36,562 --> 00:26:39,672 you make a 150 percent profit. 523 00:26:39,732 --> 00:26:42,232 After you repay the eight hundred dollars, 524 00:26:42,301 --> 00:26:45,971 you now have five hundred dollars for yourself. 525 00:26:46,038 --> 00:26:49,108 But if the price of stocks goes down 30 percent, 526 00:26:49,175 --> 00:26:52,905 your stocks end up being worth only 700 dollars, 527 00:26:52,979 --> 00:26:55,979 but you still need to repay the 800 dollars. 528 00:26:56,048 --> 00:26:58,888 You now owe the bank a hundred dollars. 529 00:26:58,951 --> 00:27:01,521 The problem is that borrowing money to buy stocks, 530 00:27:01,587 --> 00:27:03,487 "buying on margin," 531 00:27:03,555 --> 00:27:08,185 although it amplifies the gains, it also amplifies the losses. 532 00:27:08,260 --> 00:27:12,630 You can end up owing money to the bank without having a penny left. 533 00:27:12,699 --> 00:27:15,229 TERRY JONES: By the end of 1928, 534 00:27:15,301 --> 00:27:18,541 folk were swarming to buy stocks on margin. 535 00:27:18,604 --> 00:27:22,544 In other words, speculation had taken a hold on people 536 00:27:22,608 --> 00:27:24,338 like never before. 537 00:27:24,410 --> 00:27:28,350 Never before or since have so many become 538 00:27:28,414 --> 00:27:33,924 so wondrously, so effortlessly, and so quickly rich. 539 00:27:33,986 --> 00:27:36,016 You might say what is the difference 540 00:27:36,088 --> 00:27:38,758 between speculation and gambling? 541 00:27:38,825 --> 00:27:41,325 Well, uh, a Journalist, Will Payne, 542 00:27:41,393 --> 00:27:45,003 explains in this edition of World's Work. 543 00:27:45,064 --> 00:27:47,474 A gambler only wins because somebody else loses. 544 00:27:47,533 --> 00:27:50,073 When you invest in stocks and shares, everybody wins. 545 00:27:50,136 --> 00:27:53,206 One investor buys shares in General Motors at a hundred dollars. 546 00:27:53,272 --> 00:27:55,312 He then sells it to another for 150 dollars, 547 00:27:55,374 --> 00:27:57,414 who sells it to a third for 200 dollars. 548 00:27:57,476 --> 00:28:00,206 Everybody makes money! 549 00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:01,979 TERRY JONES: It's like conjuring, 550 00:28:02,048 --> 00:28:04,818 continually pulling rabbits out of hats. 551 00:28:04,884 --> 00:28:08,794 And like conjuring, it's an illusion. 552 00:28:08,855 --> 00:28:14,725 What Will Payne forgot is that the stock prices could also go down. 553 00:28:16,462 --> 00:28:19,202 But as long as the price of stocks is increasing, 554 00:28:19,265 --> 00:28:21,465 everybody is happy to run with it. 555 00:28:21,533 --> 00:28:25,143 The illusion takes hold of formerly rational people. 556 00:28:25,204 --> 00:28:27,014 TERRY JONES: Such as the Chairman 557 00:28:27,073 --> 00:28:30,283 of the Democratic National Committee, John J. Raskob, 558 00:28:30,342 --> 00:28:34,482 who wrote an article entitled "Everybody ought to be rich." 559 00:28:34,546 --> 00:28:37,176 RASKOB: Anyone who saves 15 dollars a month, 560 00:28:37,249 --> 00:28:39,619 invested it in sound common stocks, 561 00:28:39,685 --> 00:28:41,515 and spent no dividends, 562 00:28:41,587 --> 00:28:45,017 would be worth some 80,000 dollars after 20 years. 563 00:28:45,091 --> 00:28:48,731 TERRY JONES: Raskob wasn't aiming his scheme at the middle classes, 564 00:28:48,795 --> 00:28:50,995 but at the ordinary working man. 565 00:28:51,063 --> 00:28:56,803 The press was unanimous in its praise of Raskob's Debt Speculation Machine, 566 00:28:56,869 --> 00:28:58,539 a practical utopia, 567 00:28:58,604 --> 00:29:02,314 the greatest vision of Wall Street's greatest mind. 568 00:29:02,374 --> 00:29:05,144 But not everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet. 569 00:29:05,211 --> 00:29:08,781 Roger Babson, an entrepreneur and business theorist, 570 00:29:08,848 --> 00:29:13,988 started to warn about a market crash as early as 1926. 571 00:29:14,053 --> 00:29:16,323 BABSON: Sooner or later a crash is coming. 572 00:29:16,388 --> 00:29:19,458 Factories will shut down, men will be thrown out of work. 573 00:29:19,525 --> 00:29:22,755 The result will be a serious depression. 574 00:29:24,430 --> 00:29:27,700 TERRY JONES : Paul Warburg was a banker and an early advocate 575 00:29:27,766 --> 00:29:29,666 of the U.S. Federal reserve system. 576 00:29:29,735 --> 00:29:32,495 PAUL WARBURG: If the present orgy of unrestrained speculation 577 00:29:32,571 --> 00:29:34,941 is not brought to a halt, 578 00:29:35,007 --> 00:29:38,007 there will ultimately be a general depression 579 00:29:38,077 --> 00:29:39,847 involving the entire country. 580 00:29:39,912 --> 00:29:42,552 Ah, Warburg's obsolete! 581 00:29:42,614 --> 00:29:46,554 Yeah, he's sandbagging American prosperity. 582 00:29:46,618 --> 00:29:49,858 TERRY JONES: Wall Street roundly denounced Babson and Warburg. 583 00:29:49,922 --> 00:29:53,292 The consensus of judgment of the millions whose evaluations 584 00:29:53,359 --> 00:29:56,029 on that admirable market, the Stock Exchange, 585 00:29:56,095 --> 00:29:58,795 is that stocks are not at present overvalued. 586 00:29:58,865 --> 00:30:02,595 The economic condition of the world seems on the verge of a great forward movement. 587 00:30:02,668 --> 00:30:07,368 Stock prices have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau. 588 00:30:07,439 --> 00:30:11,139 Where is that group of men with the all-embracing wisdom 589 00:30:11,210 --> 00:30:16,050 which will entitle them to veto the judgment of this intelligent multitude? 590 00:30:17,683 --> 00:30:21,123 This advert appeared in the Saturday Evening Post 591 00:30:21,187 --> 00:30:25,487 a few weeks before the meltdown of 1929. 592 00:30:25,557 --> 00:30:29,527 MAN: "In 1719, there was practically no way of finding out the facts. 593 00:30:29,595 --> 00:30:33,365 "How different the position of the investor in 1929! 594 00:30:33,432 --> 00:30:39,942 For now, every investor has at his disposal, facilities for obtaining the facts." 595 00:30:40,006 --> 00:30:42,976 24 October is the first of the days 596 00:30:43,042 --> 00:30:47,312 which history identifies with the panic of 1929. 597 00:30:47,379 --> 00:30:51,119 That day, almost 13 million shares changed hands, 598 00:30:51,183 --> 00:30:56,723 many of them had prices which shattered the dreams and hopes of those who owned them. 599 00:30:56,788 --> 00:31:02,328 By 11:30, the market had surrendered to blind, relentless fear. 600 00:31:02,394 --> 00:31:07,474 Thousand of speculators who previously had only seen the market rising 601 00:31:07,533 --> 00:31:11,773 now discovered the problem with buying on margin, 602 00:31:11,837 --> 00:31:16,637 as brokers sent telegrams demanding huge amounts of cash. 603 00:31:16,708 --> 00:31:18,708 VINTAGE NARRATOR: This was the case in 1929 604 00:31:18,777 --> 00:31:20,747 when the overinflated American economy, 605 00:31:20,812 --> 00:31:24,082 and the stock market which fueled it, crashed. 606 00:31:24,150 --> 00:31:27,820 By the end of the year, banks all over the country were closing their doors 607 00:31:27,886 --> 00:31:32,086 as frightened people clamored to reclaim their savings. 608 00:31:32,158 --> 00:31:35,688 To many, many watchers, it meant that their dream-- 609 00:31:35,761 --> 00:31:38,431 in fact, their brief reality of opulence-- 610 00:31:38,497 --> 00:31:41,967 had gone glimmering together with home, 611 00:31:42,034 --> 00:31:45,974 car, furs, jewelry and reputation. 612 00:31:50,776 --> 00:31:53,776 ( footsteps ) 613 00:31:53,845 --> 00:31:57,715 GALBRAITH: Tuesday, 29, October, was the most devastating day 614 00:31:57,783 --> 00:32:00,093 in the history of the New York Stock Market. 615 00:32:03,789 --> 00:32:05,589 ( paper rustling ) 616 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,060 TERRY JONES: The 1929 Wall Street crash 617 00:32:11,130 --> 00:32:14,170 was a deep and prolonged crisis, 618 00:32:14,233 --> 00:32:17,973 different from some of the previous panics in history. 619 00:32:18,037 --> 00:32:21,367 It combined euphoria with massive borrowing. 620 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,440 And speculation combined with borrowed money 621 00:32:25,511 --> 00:32:30,181 is the most toxic combination in capitalism. 622 00:32:30,249 --> 00:32:33,319 * Yeah, yeah, I need the crystale dropping popping * 623 00:32:33,385 --> 00:32:35,985 * I need diamonds rocking rocking * 624 00:32:36,055 --> 00:32:37,915 * I need that money money 625 00:32:37,990 --> 00:32:39,730 * I need that money, money 626 00:32:39,791 --> 00:32:41,091 * I need that money, money 627 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,890 We came out of the Great Depression 628 00:32:42,961 --> 00:32:45,431 with hardly any private sector debt. 629 00:32:45,497 --> 00:32:48,097 Households and firms were not very indebted, 630 00:32:48,167 --> 00:32:50,197 partly because they went bankrupt, 631 00:32:50,269 --> 00:32:52,069 partly because they paid down debt 632 00:32:52,138 --> 00:32:55,508 and for generations Americans were afraid to get into debt. 633 00:32:55,574 --> 00:32:58,014 Corporations were afraid to get into debt. 634 00:32:58,077 --> 00:33:03,317 Okay, but gradually over time because the economy performed fairy well, 635 00:33:03,382 --> 00:33:06,722 gradually the memories of the Great Depression faded 636 00:33:06,785 --> 00:33:10,055 and the new generations became more willing to borrow, 637 00:33:10,122 --> 00:33:11,762 both households and firms, 638 00:33:11,823 --> 00:33:13,733 and these debt ratios started to climb. 639 00:33:13,792 --> 00:33:18,902 In United States if you look at the long sweep of, uh, history, 640 00:33:18,964 --> 00:33:22,974 you'd discover that there have been two great peaks of private debt 641 00:33:23,035 --> 00:33:24,635 as a share of income. 642 00:33:24,703 --> 00:33:29,143 One of them occurred in 1929, the other one occurred in 2008. 643 00:33:29,208 --> 00:33:33,678 The road to financial crisis-- often at least-- 644 00:33:33,745 --> 00:33:37,315 begins with private sector getting careless about debt. 645 00:33:37,383 --> 00:33:39,593 Debts is all about debts, uh... 646 00:33:39,651 --> 00:33:43,091 people took on large amounts of debt hoping that sort of 647 00:33:43,155 --> 00:33:47,225 wonderful things would happen in the future that would allow them to repay them. 648 00:33:47,293 --> 00:33:51,763 Nothing is ever learned for long. We forget. 649 00:33:51,830 --> 00:33:55,500 People who learned that lessons, who lived those lessons, died. 650 00:33:55,567 --> 00:33:59,607 And their children viewed the Great Depression as, 651 00:33:59,671 --> 00:34:01,411 as a historical episode. 652 00:34:01,473 --> 00:34:04,313 But why does it happen time after time 653 00:34:04,376 --> 00:34:06,546 throughout the centuries? 654 00:34:17,423 --> 00:34:22,363 TERRY JONES: In the 1960s, '70s, and '80s, the economist Hyman Minsky 655 00:34:22,428 --> 00:34:27,128 proposed the financial instability hypothesis. 656 00:34:28,267 --> 00:34:30,797 -Hi, Dad. -Oh, hello, son. 657 00:34:30,869 --> 00:34:32,669 -Sit down. -Sure. 658 00:34:32,738 --> 00:34:35,468 -Now, listen up, Alan. -I'm all ears, Dad. 659 00:34:35,541 --> 00:34:39,151 The essence of the financial instability hypothesis 660 00:34:39,211 --> 00:34:41,251 is that financial traumas-- 661 00:34:41,313 --> 00:34:42,983 You mean crashes and such? 662 00:34:43,048 --> 00:34:49,118 Exactly. Occur as a normal function in a capitalist economy. 663 00:34:49,188 --> 00:34:52,158 This does not mean the economy is always 664 00:34:52,224 --> 00:34:53,964 tottering on the brink of disaster. 665 00:34:54,025 --> 00:34:55,955 I should hope not. What kind of sys-- 666 00:34:56,027 --> 00:34:57,757 Son, be serious. 667 00:34:57,829 --> 00:35:00,129 The normal functioning of an economy 668 00:35:00,199 --> 00:35:02,599 with a robust financial situation 669 00:35:02,668 --> 00:35:06,038 is both tranquil and on the whole successful. 670 00:35:06,104 --> 00:35:10,614 But tranquility and success are not self-sustaining states. 671 00:35:10,676 --> 00:35:12,806 You mean stability leads to more optimism 672 00:35:12,878 --> 00:35:15,778 and therefore more borrowing in stocks and houses. 673 00:35:15,847 --> 00:35:18,877 Uh-huh. And this leads to a transformation over time 674 00:35:18,950 --> 00:35:21,850 of an initially robust financial structure 675 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,320 into a fragile structure. 676 00:35:23,389 --> 00:35:26,059 Wait, let me get this straight. 677 00:35:26,124 --> 00:35:27,594 After a deep depression, 678 00:35:27,659 --> 00:35:30,999 governments impose regulations on the financial world. 679 00:35:31,062 --> 00:35:33,002 There follows a period of stability, 680 00:35:33,064 --> 00:35:34,634 but the problem with this stability 681 00:35:34,700 --> 00:35:36,670 is that it breathes overconfidence. 682 00:35:36,735 --> 00:35:39,935 Overconfidence leads to financial euphoria, 683 00:35:40,005 --> 00:35:44,105 during which time the politicians relax the regulations. 684 00:35:44,176 --> 00:35:46,546 This then leads to excessive borrowing, 685 00:35:46,612 --> 00:35:51,282 and excessive borrowing and euphoric bubbles cause instability. 686 00:35:51,350 --> 00:35:54,520 By Jove, I think my boy's got it. 687 00:35:54,586 --> 00:35:56,686 Well, I've been hearing about it at the dinner table 688 00:35:56,755 --> 00:35:58,215 since I was six. 689 00:35:59,958 --> 00:36:02,928 Hyman Minsky used to say, uh, 690 00:36:02,994 --> 00:36:04,604 stability is destabilizing. 691 00:36:04,663 --> 00:36:08,273 It causes people to get overconfident, 692 00:36:08,334 --> 00:36:10,404 it causes people to forget 693 00:36:10,469 --> 00:36:12,669 about the underlying nature of the system, 694 00:36:12,738 --> 00:36:15,508 that it's inherently unstable, inherently unstable. 695 00:36:15,574 --> 00:36:17,614 But it's a powerful hypothesis. 696 00:36:17,676 --> 00:36:20,976 And the hypothesis is actually, basically that, 697 00:36:21,046 --> 00:36:22,946 there are long cycles in which 698 00:36:23,014 --> 00:36:25,824 people forget about the dangers of debt 699 00:36:25,884 --> 00:36:28,524 forget about the dangers of being a highly leveraged. 700 00:36:28,587 --> 00:36:31,757 That goes both for borrowers, for lenders, 701 00:36:31,823 --> 00:36:33,433 for government regulators, everybody, 702 00:36:33,492 --> 00:36:35,862 And the last financial crisis recedes 703 00:36:35,927 --> 00:36:38,297 into the fog of memory, 704 00:36:38,364 --> 00:36:39,804 and that sets you up for the next one. 705 00:36:39,865 --> 00:36:42,665 He predicted that financially complex capitalism 706 00:36:42,734 --> 00:36:45,904 creates crashes, creates massive booms and busts, 707 00:36:45,971 --> 00:36:50,011 that can on some occasions reach the scale of 1929. 708 00:36:50,075 --> 00:36:53,005 So, it, 1929, can happen again. 709 00:36:53,078 --> 00:36:54,708 That's "Minksy-anism." 710 00:36:54,780 --> 00:36:56,280 ( piano plays ) 711 00:37:01,787 --> 00:37:05,217 Hyman Minsky says a bubble's in three stages. 712 00:37:05,291 --> 00:37:09,531 The hedge participants are first in line. 713 00:37:09,595 --> 00:37:11,395 * What they save or make or get * 714 00:37:11,463 --> 00:37:13,063 * Pays the interest on their debt * 715 00:37:13,131 --> 00:37:16,971 * The economy is looking pretty fine * 716 00:37:17,035 --> 00:37:20,505 * The second stage involves some speculation * 717 00:37:20,572 --> 00:37:24,282 * Speculators borrow cash to buy more shares * 718 00:37:24,343 --> 00:37:26,353 * And as long as the market rises * 719 00:37:26,412 --> 00:37:28,482 * There are no nasty surprises * 720 00:37:28,547 --> 00:37:31,547 * But when it falls It take them unawares * 721 00:37:31,617 --> 00:37:35,017 * Things have gotten really quite unstable * 722 00:37:35,086 --> 00:37:39,356 * This is where the dangerous stage begins * 723 00:37:39,425 --> 00:37:40,825 * People borrow more 724 00:37:40,892 --> 00:37:45,132 * To pay their interest as before * 725 00:37:45,196 --> 00:37:49,296 * And in the end it's just the bank that wins * 726 00:37:49,368 --> 00:37:52,038 But he was not himself, uh, a banker. 727 00:37:52,103 --> 00:37:55,243 Okay, he was not himself, so he had a bigger picture. 728 00:37:55,307 --> 00:37:56,807 He was able to step back from this 729 00:37:56,875 --> 00:37:59,675 and understand the system as a whole. 730 00:37:59,745 --> 00:38:02,345 For someone to write about financial instability 731 00:38:02,414 --> 00:38:05,024 in the late 1950's as he was doing, 732 00:38:05,083 --> 00:38:08,393 you know, this was a period that at least on the surface 733 00:38:08,454 --> 00:38:12,724 was the most financially stable period United States had ever had, 734 00:38:12,791 --> 00:38:15,461 and so it didn't seem like 735 00:38:15,527 --> 00:38:18,927 what he was saying was relevant, 736 00:38:18,997 --> 00:38:21,427 uh, to the kind of economy we'd developed. 737 00:38:21,500 --> 00:38:23,800 JOHN CASSIDY: And, all the guys in Harvard and MIT 738 00:38:23,869 --> 00:38:26,739 and Chicago and all the other universities 739 00:38:26,805 --> 00:38:29,505 who said, look, the financial system is perfectly stable, 740 00:38:29,575 --> 00:38:32,105 what are you talking about, Hyman? 741 00:38:32,177 --> 00:38:34,247 So, he was discredited, really, 742 00:38:34,312 --> 00:38:35,952 inside the profession. 743 00:38:36,014 --> 00:38:40,424 And then suddenly, 2008, everything goes to hell, 744 00:38:40,486 --> 00:38:42,916 the financial system has basically blown up the world, 745 00:38:42,988 --> 00:38:44,318 he's the man who warned 746 00:38:44,390 --> 00:38:46,590 that this could happen 25 years earlier, 747 00:38:46,658 --> 00:38:49,258 so everybody suddenly becomes a Minskyite. 748 00:38:49,327 --> 00:38:51,257 Anyone who read that stuff 749 00:38:51,329 --> 00:38:53,699 could've seen the crisis coming. 750 00:38:53,765 --> 00:38:55,395 So, the Queen asked, you know, 751 00:38:55,467 --> 00:38:56,837 "Why didn't you guys see it coming?" 752 00:38:56,902 --> 00:38:58,742 The answer is they didn't read Minsky. 753 00:38:58,804 --> 00:39:02,914 If they had read Minsky, they absolutely would have seen it coming. 754 00:39:02,974 --> 00:39:04,314 It was really clear. 755 00:39:04,376 --> 00:39:06,376 You know, this is what a boom looks like. 756 00:39:06,445 --> 00:39:08,975 This is in a euphoric... system. 757 00:39:09,047 --> 00:39:12,277 This is what these asset booms look like. 758 00:39:12,350 --> 00:39:14,250 Minsky was absolutely right. 759 00:39:14,319 --> 00:39:15,619 He was dead on. 760 00:39:15,687 --> 00:39:17,657 Which rather begs the question, 761 00:39:17,723 --> 00:39:19,323 how is it we forgot 762 00:39:19,391 --> 00:39:20,991 about not just his work 763 00:39:21,059 --> 00:39:22,629 but others' work, 764 00:39:22,694 --> 00:39:25,804 in the period prior to the crises. 765 00:39:25,864 --> 00:39:28,304 I don't just mean the three or four years, 766 00:39:28,366 --> 00:39:30,936 I mean the three or four decades 767 00:39:31,002 --> 00:39:33,542 when economics 768 00:39:33,605 --> 00:39:35,965 pursued a path 769 00:39:36,041 --> 00:39:38,711 that ruled out Minsky-type dynamics 770 00:39:38,777 --> 00:39:40,107 for what was going wrong. 771 00:39:40,178 --> 00:39:44,018 Like many other people in my economic profession, 772 00:39:44,082 --> 00:39:46,252 we probably didn't even know who he was. 773 00:39:46,317 --> 00:39:48,417 Well, Minsky was inconvenient. 774 00:39:48,487 --> 00:39:52,687 He operated always on the margins of the... 775 00:39:52,758 --> 00:39:55,288 hierarchy of the economics profession. 776 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:56,430 Uh... 777 00:39:56,495 --> 00:39:59,225 and that made him... 778 00:39:59,297 --> 00:40:01,967 relatively easy to disregard. 779 00:40:02,033 --> 00:40:04,573 It's a paradox, actually, with my father, 780 00:40:04,636 --> 00:40:06,066 as to why he was ignored, 781 00:40:06,137 --> 00:40:09,267 because the very, perhaps, reasons he was ignored, 782 00:40:09,340 --> 00:40:12,510 were the very reasons he eventually became so celebrated. 783 00:40:12,578 --> 00:40:17,148 Hy Minsky was a remarkably warm individual. 784 00:40:17,215 --> 00:40:20,145 And, I don't know how many economists you've ever met, okay? 785 00:40:20,218 --> 00:40:22,018 But that's not particularly a trait 786 00:40:22,087 --> 00:40:24,417 that economists are well known for. 787 00:40:24,490 --> 00:40:26,890 In university lectures, 788 00:40:26,958 --> 00:40:30,058 when outside professors were brought in, 789 00:40:30,128 --> 00:40:31,358 Minsky would 790 00:40:31,429 --> 00:40:32,829 appear to be either asleep 791 00:40:32,898 --> 00:40:34,928 or reading the newspaper. 792 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,270 But, as soon as the Q-and-A time came, 793 00:40:38,336 --> 00:40:41,406 it was always obvious he was the most brilliant person in the room, 794 00:40:41,473 --> 00:40:44,083 who actually knew what had been going on, 795 00:40:44,142 --> 00:40:47,452 and, um, knew what was wrong with it. 796 00:40:47,513 --> 00:40:50,453 Minsky was a brilliant man. 797 00:40:50,516 --> 00:40:53,516 I only, eh... went to a few of his lectures 798 00:40:53,585 --> 00:40:55,215 at Edinburgh and Cambridge, 799 00:40:55,286 --> 00:40:57,516 but he was very captivating. 800 00:40:57,589 --> 00:40:59,859 Even Minsky predicts that 801 00:40:59,925 --> 00:41:02,055 his warnings will again go unheeded 802 00:41:02,127 --> 00:41:03,997 and he will be forgotten. 803 00:41:04,062 --> 00:41:06,732 So it seems like now is the time when he's being remembered, 804 00:41:06,798 --> 00:41:09,068 and, hopefully maybe he's wrong, 805 00:41:09,134 --> 00:41:11,074 we won't forget what he is saying. 806 00:41:11,136 --> 00:41:14,406 One of the ironies about the 2008 crisis is that, um, 807 00:41:14,472 --> 00:41:16,242 Minsky's books were out of print. 808 00:41:16,307 --> 00:41:18,807 His last book, Stabilizing An Unstable Economy, 809 00:41:18,877 --> 00:41:19,947 as the crash was happening, 810 00:41:20,011 --> 00:41:21,851 and as asset prices were falling, 811 00:41:21,913 --> 00:41:24,783 uh, the price of his book was being bid up and up and up, 812 00:41:24,850 --> 00:41:26,520 because everyone wanted to read 813 00:41:26,585 --> 00:41:27,745 his book about the, uh, 814 00:41:27,819 --> 00:41:29,819 about the crises that was happening. 815 00:41:29,888 --> 00:41:33,058 Stability leads to instability. 816 00:41:33,124 --> 00:41:34,794 Euphoria makes us blind. 817 00:41:34,860 --> 00:41:36,800 And we take irresponsible risks 818 00:41:36,862 --> 00:41:38,932 that eventually lead to disaster. 819 00:41:38,997 --> 00:41:41,397 So stable and booming markets 820 00:41:41,466 --> 00:41:44,396 make us blind to the increasing risks. 821 00:41:44,469 --> 00:41:46,869 But can we measure this blindness? 822 00:41:46,938 --> 00:41:48,008 Well, yes. 823 00:41:48,073 --> 00:41:50,743 There is an index based on the price 824 00:41:50,809 --> 00:41:52,539 people are willing to pay 825 00:41:52,611 --> 00:41:55,011 for protection against the market crash. 826 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:59,650 This is the market traded price of risk. 827 00:41:59,718 --> 00:42:01,218 And what is interesting 828 00:42:01,286 --> 00:42:03,116 is that this price of risk 829 00:42:03,188 --> 00:42:04,558 actually declines 830 00:42:04,623 --> 00:42:06,163 to very low levels 831 00:42:06,224 --> 00:42:08,434 during periods when stock markets 832 00:42:08,493 --> 00:42:11,733 go sky high and instability grows. 833 00:42:13,732 --> 00:42:18,272 So our perception of risk runs contrary to the actual risk. 834 00:42:18,336 --> 00:42:20,806 In the crash of 2008, 835 00:42:20,872 --> 00:42:26,112 the price of risk was at its lowest level ever. 836 00:42:26,177 --> 00:42:28,747 You're not allowed to teach that in universities. 837 00:42:28,814 --> 00:42:31,054 You can, but you won't get a chair of economics 838 00:42:31,116 --> 00:42:33,746 at a major, prestigious, global university. 839 00:42:33,819 --> 00:42:37,059 Only the economics that says capitalism's stable 840 00:42:37,122 --> 00:42:40,592 can be thought at these universities. 841 00:42:47,933 --> 00:42:50,203 The conventional economic model 842 00:42:50,268 --> 00:42:52,468 which is used to run the economy 843 00:42:52,537 --> 00:42:55,067 is known as the free market, 844 00:42:55,140 --> 00:42:58,610 or neoclassical economic theory, 845 00:42:58,677 --> 00:43:00,347 and it is based on the idea 846 00:43:00,411 --> 00:43:03,621 that we are all rational when it comes to money, 847 00:43:03,682 --> 00:43:09,152 that the economy will always find itself in an equilibrium, 848 00:43:09,220 --> 00:43:12,620 and the bubbles simply can't happen. 849 00:43:17,295 --> 00:43:19,425 Neoclassical economics is this wonderful thing. 850 00:43:19,497 --> 00:43:20,727 It's useful, actually. 851 00:43:20,799 --> 00:43:22,329 I use it myself all the time. 852 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,670 It says, let's posit a world of perfectly rational people 853 00:43:26,738 --> 00:43:28,908 operating in perfectly competitive markets 854 00:43:28,974 --> 00:43:30,744 and see how they interact, 855 00:43:30,809 --> 00:43:32,909 and see what kind of, you know, properties. 856 00:43:32,978 --> 00:43:35,648 And, it turns out that if the world really was like that, 857 00:43:35,714 --> 00:43:37,154 there would be all kinds of nice things. 858 00:43:38,283 --> 00:43:39,893 So economists, uh, 859 00:43:40,852 --> 00:43:42,392 think about the world 860 00:43:42,453 --> 00:43:44,393 using, uh, models. 861 00:43:44,455 --> 00:43:46,185 And what does that mean? 862 00:43:46,257 --> 00:43:49,027 Okay, that's a simplified version of the world, 863 00:43:49,094 --> 00:43:55,034 um, taking out one or two or maybe three essential features 864 00:43:55,100 --> 00:43:56,530 of the world 865 00:43:56,601 --> 00:43:59,601 and acting as if those are the only features of the world, 866 00:43:59,671 --> 00:44:01,341 and, and building-- 867 00:44:01,406 --> 00:44:05,606 building out the consequences of those three kind of features. 868 00:44:05,677 --> 00:44:07,177 Models are just stories. 869 00:44:07,245 --> 00:44:09,045 You know, they say, if you do this, 870 00:44:09,114 --> 00:44:11,054 then that will happen. That's all they are. 871 00:44:11,116 --> 00:44:13,746 If you choose the three most essential features, 872 00:44:13,819 --> 00:44:15,089 then you have a good model. 873 00:44:15,153 --> 00:44:16,793 If you choose three features 874 00:44:16,855 --> 00:44:18,485 that are not very essential, 875 00:44:18,556 --> 00:44:20,156 then you have a model 876 00:44:20,225 --> 00:44:22,125 that's not really gonna help you with your problem. 877 00:44:22,193 --> 00:44:24,933 It's a useful-- it's an intuition pump, right? 878 00:44:24,996 --> 00:44:27,496 It helps you think about why markets sometimes work really well, 879 00:44:27,565 --> 00:44:28,965 helps you think about something. 880 00:44:29,034 --> 00:44:31,644 But if you start to believe that it is not a... 881 00:44:31,703 --> 00:44:33,673 helpful, ah, fairytale, 882 00:44:33,739 --> 00:44:36,439 but actually the truth, then you're in big trouble, 883 00:44:36,507 --> 00:44:38,437 because the world doesn't work like that, 884 00:44:38,509 --> 00:44:40,509 and at times like this, depression times, 885 00:44:40,578 --> 00:44:42,108 it really doesn't work like that. 886 00:44:42,180 --> 00:44:45,020 So neoclassical economics is a potential trap. 887 00:44:45,083 --> 00:44:47,493 So if I put it really at its simplest, 888 00:44:47,552 --> 00:44:49,192 you build a model where you say, 889 00:44:49,254 --> 00:44:51,264 we assume depressions are not possible. 890 00:44:51,322 --> 00:44:54,192 That unfortunately, is not the world we live in. 891 00:44:54,259 --> 00:44:57,399 Conventional economists don't like to model debt 892 00:44:57,462 --> 00:44:59,132 into their economic models 893 00:44:59,197 --> 00:45:02,767 because debt makes the models unstable, 894 00:45:02,834 --> 00:45:05,044 so they omit it altogether. 895 00:45:05,103 --> 00:45:08,413 It's modeling what is easier to model 896 00:45:08,473 --> 00:45:11,143 rather than what is happening in the real world. 897 00:45:11,209 --> 00:45:14,409 They-they will not break away from this 19th century, 898 00:45:14,479 --> 00:45:18,019 uh, heuristics that they thought 899 00:45:18,083 --> 00:45:19,793 would make it easier to solve the problem. 900 00:45:19,851 --> 00:45:21,291 In fact, they've made it far harder, 901 00:45:21,352 --> 00:45:23,892 and it's why they had no idea this crises was coming 902 00:45:23,955 --> 00:45:25,755 because they ignored banks, debt, and money. 903 00:45:29,294 --> 00:45:33,464 It was a serious, serious professional problem. 904 00:45:33,531 --> 00:45:34,801 We had a situation-- 905 00:45:34,866 --> 00:45:37,236 to compare it to doctors for a second, 906 00:45:37,302 --> 00:45:38,542 real doctors. 907 00:45:38,603 --> 00:45:43,643 We had a situation where the patient was bleeding, 908 00:45:43,708 --> 00:45:46,948 but we didn't really recognize the presence of blood. 909 00:45:47,012 --> 00:45:49,252 Like, it's that serious, you know. 910 00:45:49,314 --> 00:45:52,554 Why doesn't it appear ridiculous to economists 911 00:45:52,617 --> 00:45:54,517 to use models without money? 912 00:45:54,585 --> 00:45:56,145 Uh, I'm an economist myself, 913 00:45:56,221 --> 00:45:57,761 and it does appear ridiculous to me. 914 00:45:57,823 --> 00:46:00,593 So, there's at least one exemption to that, 915 00:46:00,658 --> 00:46:02,958 and quite a few others to be sure. 916 00:46:03,028 --> 00:46:05,858 It is very hard to, uh, understand 917 00:46:05,931 --> 00:46:11,741 the reasons why economists focused on models, 918 00:46:11,803 --> 00:46:13,703 eh, in which crises, 919 00:46:13,771 --> 00:46:16,171 eh, could not occur, 920 00:46:16,241 --> 00:46:17,541 were impossible. 921 00:46:17,608 --> 00:46:19,878 I think economics has this lure 922 00:46:19,945 --> 00:46:21,945 that the moment we can explain something 923 00:46:22,013 --> 00:46:24,923 in a beautiful model, it's just elegant. 924 00:46:24,983 --> 00:46:26,953 And you want the world to be elegant. 925 00:46:27,018 --> 00:46:28,888 * One dream 926 00:46:28,954 --> 00:46:30,824 * One soul 927 00:46:30,889 --> 00:46:32,959 * One prize 928 00:46:33,024 --> 00:46:34,464 * One goal 929 00:46:34,525 --> 00:46:35,785 * One goal 930 00:46:35,861 --> 00:46:37,561 * One golden glance 931 00:46:38,696 --> 00:46:40,796 * Of what should be 932 00:46:40,866 --> 00:46:42,396 * It's a kind of magic * 933 00:46:42,467 --> 00:46:43,967 * One shaft 934 00:46:44,035 --> 00:46:45,665 * Of light 935 00:46:45,736 --> 00:46:48,536 * That shows the way 936 00:46:49,740 --> 00:46:52,980 * No mortal man 937 00:46:53,879 --> 00:46:55,649 * Can win this day 938 00:46:55,713 --> 00:46:57,183 * It's a kind of magic * 939 00:46:57,248 --> 00:47:00,788 * The bell that rings 940 00:47:00,852 --> 00:47:04,622 * Inside your mind 941 00:47:04,689 --> 00:47:07,929 * Is challenging 942 00:47:08,894 --> 00:47:10,464 * The doors of time 943 00:47:12,597 --> 00:47:15,327 * The waiting seems 944 00:47:16,467 --> 00:47:18,197 * Eternity 945 00:47:20,071 --> 00:47:23,441 * The day will dawn 946 00:47:23,508 --> 00:47:26,038 * Of sanity 947 00:47:27,112 --> 00:47:33,252 * is this a kind of magic? 948 00:47:33,318 --> 00:47:35,218 I think deregulation has about it 949 00:47:35,286 --> 00:47:36,886 a sort of natural bubble, 950 00:47:36,955 --> 00:47:38,985 which is that when you allow people 951 00:47:39,057 --> 00:47:40,887 a massive amount of freedom, 952 00:47:40,959 --> 00:47:42,429 they enjoy it. 953 00:47:45,964 --> 00:47:48,604 Key parts of the regulatory apparatus 954 00:47:48,666 --> 00:47:50,866 were being run by people 955 00:47:50,936 --> 00:47:53,196 who didn't believe in their job. 956 00:47:53,271 --> 00:47:54,811 They-- they believed that their job was to 957 00:47:54,872 --> 00:47:56,072 get out of the way of the banks, 958 00:47:56,141 --> 00:47:57,411 or to-- or even to help the banks, 959 00:47:57,475 --> 00:48:00,475 but not to-- not to protect us from-- 960 00:48:00,545 --> 00:48:01,845 uh, from banks gone bad. 961 00:48:01,913 --> 00:48:03,513 We had a banking system 962 00:48:03,581 --> 00:48:06,721 with regulators who encouraged risk-taking. 963 00:48:06,784 --> 00:48:11,124 They positively encouraged and rewarded risk-taking, 964 00:48:11,189 --> 00:48:13,589 and politicians stood up and said 965 00:48:13,658 --> 00:48:16,458 that not just risk-taking is all right, guys, 966 00:48:16,527 --> 00:48:18,827 they said the risk-taking is good. 967 00:48:18,896 --> 00:48:20,096 The riskier the better. 968 00:48:20,165 --> 00:48:23,125 * We are sure that everything 969 00:48:23,201 --> 00:48:26,941 * Is hunky-dory, that's our story * 970 00:48:27,005 --> 00:48:29,105 * Everything will work out fine * 971 00:48:29,174 --> 00:48:32,684 * Like good wine, it just needs time * 972 00:48:32,743 --> 00:48:35,413 * Market freedom is the thing 973 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,480 * To cure all ills and that's why we sing * 974 00:48:38,549 --> 00:48:41,489 * Keep the markets free, free, free * 975 00:48:41,552 --> 00:48:47,432 * For all eternity, that's the only way to be * 976 00:48:47,492 --> 00:48:50,662 We have a free market ideology that says 977 00:48:50,728 --> 00:48:52,958 the more you remove the state 978 00:48:53,031 --> 00:48:54,601 from the market, 979 00:48:54,665 --> 00:48:57,995 the more the market is allowed to do what it does, 980 00:48:58,069 --> 00:48:59,899 which is to-- 981 00:48:59,971 --> 00:49:01,541 to bring millions of decisions 982 00:49:01,606 --> 00:49:04,006 by people, every day, together, 983 00:49:04,075 --> 00:49:06,105 in a way that provides a rational outcome. 984 00:49:06,177 --> 00:49:09,477 So, the market is our collective rationality. 985 00:49:11,249 --> 00:49:13,749 I suppose the free market ideology 986 00:49:13,818 --> 00:49:17,658 is where you have a fundamental belief 987 00:49:17,722 --> 00:49:20,992 that markets are the optimum way 988 00:49:21,059 --> 00:49:22,829 to create wealth 989 00:49:22,893 --> 00:49:27,473 and to distribute goods and services throughout society. 990 00:49:27,532 --> 00:49:30,542 CASSIDY: Alan Greenspan sort of exemplified the rise 991 00:49:30,601 --> 00:49:32,471 or the comeback of free market economics 992 00:49:32,537 --> 00:49:34,807 after it had been discredited in the 1930s. 993 00:49:34,872 --> 00:49:36,312 You can really trace 994 00:49:36,374 --> 00:49:38,384 the whole rise of it through his career, actually. 995 00:49:38,443 --> 00:49:41,313 He was a man who had, for decades, 996 00:49:41,379 --> 00:49:43,949 applied a certain way of thinking. 997 00:49:44,015 --> 00:49:46,215 And... and he was-- 998 00:49:46,284 --> 00:49:48,124 And he made very significant decisions 999 00:49:48,186 --> 00:49:50,656 that influenced the economy of the world 1000 00:49:50,721 --> 00:49:52,221 based on that framework. 1001 00:49:52,290 --> 00:49:54,730 Alan Greenspan, I think, had deep, deep belief 1002 00:49:54,792 --> 00:49:56,762 in lack of regulation. 1003 00:49:56,827 --> 00:49:58,057 Right? And, so, he basically, 1004 00:49:58,129 --> 00:49:59,829 eliminated many of the regulations, 1005 00:49:59,897 --> 00:50:02,097 allowing all the economic agents 1006 00:50:02,167 --> 00:50:04,197 to act as they wished. 1007 00:50:04,269 --> 00:50:06,739 And that framework assumed that-- 1008 00:50:06,804 --> 00:50:09,914 that the agents in the economy are rational... 1009 00:50:09,974 --> 00:50:11,584 including banks. 1010 00:50:11,642 --> 00:50:14,782 There is a book called Maestro written about him, 1011 00:50:14,845 --> 00:50:16,845 describing him as a genius 1012 00:50:16,914 --> 00:50:19,054 for not having listened to naysayers 1013 00:50:19,117 --> 00:50:21,447 who said, "You should slow this expansion down." 1014 00:50:25,290 --> 00:50:26,960 KRUGMAN: The crash was, in fact, the proof that 1015 00:50:27,024 --> 00:50:28,864 the Greenspan view that markets were 1016 00:50:28,926 --> 00:50:31,356 self-policing, self-regulating was all wrong. 1017 00:50:31,429 --> 00:50:34,029 CASSIDY: So, he was hauled before Congress to, you know, 1018 00:50:34,099 --> 00:50:36,529 say, well, you know, "You've been telling us all for years 1019 00:50:36,601 --> 00:50:38,641 we don't need financial regulation, 1020 00:50:38,703 --> 00:50:40,343 we don't need to worry about the market. 1021 00:50:40,405 --> 00:50:43,335 What went wrong? Did anything go wrong?" 1022 00:50:43,408 --> 00:50:46,978 And he said, "Partially. Something partially went wrong." 1023 00:50:47,044 --> 00:50:49,354 And they said, "What would you mean by that Mr. Greenspan? 1024 00:50:49,414 --> 00:50:52,284 You know, uh, what partially went wrong?" 1025 00:50:52,350 --> 00:50:55,420 You found a flaw in... reality-- 1026 00:50:55,486 --> 00:50:57,586 GREENSPAN: The one flaw in the model that I perceived 1027 00:50:57,655 --> 00:51:01,585 as the critical functioning structure 1028 00:51:01,659 --> 00:51:03,589 that defines how the world works, so to speak. 1029 00:51:03,661 --> 00:51:05,531 In other words, you found that your-- 1030 00:51:05,596 --> 00:51:08,666 your view of the world, your ideology was not right. 1031 00:51:08,733 --> 00:51:10,703 -It was not working. -GREENSPAN: That it. How do I-- 1032 00:51:10,768 --> 00:51:11,998 Precisely. You know, I-- 1033 00:51:12,069 --> 00:51:13,839 That's precisely the reason I was shocked 1034 00:51:13,904 --> 00:51:17,244 because I've been going for 40 years or more 1035 00:51:17,308 --> 00:51:19,138 with very considerable evidence 1036 00:51:19,210 --> 00:51:20,880 that it was working exceptionally well. 1037 00:51:20,945 --> 00:51:23,905 Quite amazing when he said that my view of the world was wrong. 1038 00:51:23,981 --> 00:51:26,251 it was a startling admission, 1039 00:51:26,317 --> 00:51:28,317 an indication that... 1040 00:51:28,386 --> 00:51:29,716 perhaps there was some-- 1041 00:51:29,787 --> 00:51:32,217 some humility and hope for redemption 1042 00:51:32,290 --> 00:51:34,020 um, in Mr. Greenspan, 1043 00:51:34,091 --> 00:51:35,831 which turns out to have been untrue. 1044 00:51:35,893 --> 00:51:38,533 Uh, almost immediately, he went right back to 1045 00:51:38,596 --> 00:51:40,296 pronouncing with great certainty 1046 00:51:40,365 --> 00:51:42,995 and impeccable wrongness about everything. 1047 00:51:43,067 --> 00:51:45,937 CUSACK: We really, sort of, made people like Greenspan 1048 00:51:46,003 --> 00:51:47,613 these, kind of, holy bishops, 1049 00:51:47,672 --> 00:51:50,542 and every word that they said was reinforced. 1050 00:51:50,608 --> 00:51:53,078 I mean, they were popes or something, or cardinals. 1051 00:51:53,144 --> 00:51:54,714 And, so, I think for this guy 1052 00:51:54,779 --> 00:51:56,509 to come-- come on and have to admit 1053 00:51:56,581 --> 00:52:00,551 that basically everything that he believed was wrong, 1054 00:52:00,618 --> 00:52:04,888 um, just shows you that this is a-- this is a joke. 1055 00:52:04,955 --> 00:52:07,555 You're all individuals! 1056 00:52:07,625 --> 00:52:11,055 ALL: Yes! We're all individuals! 1057 00:52:11,128 --> 00:52:12,928 You're all different! 1058 00:52:12,997 --> 00:52:16,267 Yes! We're all different. 1059 00:52:16,334 --> 00:52:18,744 -MAN: I'm not. -ALL: Shh! Shh! 1060 00:52:18,803 --> 00:52:22,813 If you try and read economies purely rationally, 1061 00:52:22,873 --> 00:52:24,843 I think that's a real mistake because 1062 00:52:24,909 --> 00:52:28,609 economies operate with a herd mentality, sure. 1063 00:52:28,679 --> 00:52:31,349 But it's a herd made up of human beings who are very 1064 00:52:31,416 --> 00:52:33,876 you know, complicated, and sometimes irrational. 1065 00:52:33,951 --> 00:52:36,251 I think the market is not our collective rationality. 1066 00:52:36,321 --> 00:52:40,331 It can be, but it can also be our collective irrationality, 1067 00:52:40,391 --> 00:52:42,191 and what was wrong with economics 1068 00:52:42,260 --> 00:52:44,700 is that it ruled out the possibility 1069 00:52:44,762 --> 00:52:46,332 of irrational outcomes. 1070 00:52:46,397 --> 00:52:48,367 That's the thing about free market economics. 1071 00:52:48,433 --> 00:52:50,373 It is a sort of ideology, 1072 00:52:50,435 --> 00:52:52,895 and once you start believing in it, um, 1073 00:52:52,970 --> 00:52:55,940 it does sort of provide a sort of framework 1074 00:52:56,006 --> 00:52:57,636 to explain the world. 1075 00:52:57,708 --> 00:53:00,608 And they were sort of trapped inside their own ideologies, really. 1076 00:53:01,646 --> 00:53:03,176 JONES: I guess it's about time 1077 00:53:03,248 --> 00:53:07,018 to factor human nature into economics. 1078 00:53:07,084 --> 00:53:08,794 We've come to Puerto Rico 1079 00:53:08,853 --> 00:53:13,263 to go to that island, over there, Monkey Island. 1080 00:53:13,324 --> 00:53:16,434 Monkey Island is a very funny place in Puerto Rico. 1081 00:53:16,494 --> 00:53:18,704 It's an island just off the southeast coast 1082 00:53:18,763 --> 00:53:21,073 that's home to about a thousand free-ranging rhesus monkeys. 1083 00:53:21,131 --> 00:53:23,101 It's a wonderful place to 1084 00:53:23,167 --> 00:53:24,537 really observe monkey behavior in the wild 1085 00:53:24,602 --> 00:53:26,602 and set up studies to study 1086 00:53:26,671 --> 00:53:28,411 how irrational they are sometimes. 1087 00:53:28,473 --> 00:53:29,873 I think, 'cause I study monkeys, 1088 00:53:29,940 --> 00:53:31,410 people think I'm interested in monkeys. 1089 00:53:31,476 --> 00:53:33,406 But really, I'm interested in people, 1090 00:53:33,478 --> 00:53:35,448 and I find that monkeys are this fascinating window 1091 00:53:35,513 --> 00:53:36,953 into what people are like. 1092 00:53:37,014 --> 00:53:39,124 You're down here, you're watching them, like, 1093 00:53:39,183 --> 00:53:40,793 hang out with their friends, and groom, 1094 00:53:40,851 --> 00:53:42,921 and strive for power, and getting resources, and, like, 1095 00:53:42,987 --> 00:53:45,417 it's just this little evolutionary microcosm 1096 00:53:45,490 --> 00:53:48,430 of what we're like without language and cellphones 1097 00:53:48,493 --> 00:53:50,633 and all this stuff of the 21st century. 1098 00:53:50,695 --> 00:53:52,225 One of the things we really wanted to do 1099 00:53:52,297 --> 00:53:53,297 to understand human choice 1100 00:53:53,364 --> 00:53:54,874 is to see if monkeys would make 1101 00:53:54,932 --> 00:53:56,872 some of the same smart decisions and bad decisions. 1102 00:53:56,934 --> 00:54:00,874 It tells something about where we came from evolutionarily 1103 00:54:00,938 --> 00:54:04,038 and how we're designed to make decisions. 1104 00:54:04,108 --> 00:54:05,338 So we introduced the monkeys 1105 00:54:05,410 --> 00:54:07,550 to their own new monkey currency. 1106 00:54:07,612 --> 00:54:09,312 I've one here. It's a monkey-- 1107 00:54:09,380 --> 00:54:10,780 It's got little bite-marks on it. 1108 00:54:10,848 --> 00:54:12,318 Um, but this is the monkey currency. 1109 00:54:12,383 --> 00:54:13,753 We gave it to them and taught them 1110 00:54:13,818 --> 00:54:15,788 they could trade these with humans for food. 1111 00:54:15,853 --> 00:54:20,123 I believe it's the only non-human currency in the world. 1112 00:54:20,190 --> 00:54:22,390 It is, in fact. It's probably very-- It's worth a lot, 1113 00:54:22,460 --> 00:54:23,890 so I'm gonna keep it in my pocket. 1114 00:54:25,430 --> 00:54:26,660 SANTOS: First they just traded with one person. 1115 00:54:26,731 --> 00:54:28,431 They got good at that. And now, 1116 00:54:28,499 --> 00:54:29,969 they get actually, a choice of people, 1117 00:54:30,034 --> 00:54:32,374 and they get to pick who they want to trade from. 1118 00:54:32,437 --> 00:54:34,367 And each person in the market, sort of, 1119 00:54:34,439 --> 00:54:35,569 shows the monkey, in a little dish, 1120 00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:36,840 you know, "Here's what you can buy." 1121 00:54:36,907 --> 00:54:38,637 And then, uh, the monkey just gets to choose. 1122 00:54:38,709 --> 00:54:40,509 And they have a little wallet of tokens 1123 00:54:40,578 --> 00:54:43,408 that they can, kind of, spend between the experimenters. 1124 00:54:43,481 --> 00:54:45,651 The monkeys meet experimenters 1125 00:54:45,716 --> 00:54:47,346 who don't always give 1126 00:54:47,418 --> 00:54:48,888 the same amount of food that they show. 1127 00:54:48,953 --> 00:54:50,593 So, they have one amount of food in their dish, 1128 00:54:50,655 --> 00:54:53,085 but then, they can, kind of, vary over time. 1129 00:54:53,157 --> 00:54:54,887 Um, so, the monkeys can, uh, say, 1130 00:54:54,959 --> 00:54:56,359 meet an experimenter 1131 00:54:56,427 --> 00:54:58,227 who looks like he's selling one grape, 1132 00:54:58,295 --> 00:54:59,525 which seems like a pretty good deal, 1133 00:54:59,597 --> 00:55:01,067 but every time the monkey pays him, 1134 00:55:01,131 --> 00:55:02,701 the monkey actually gets two. 1135 00:55:02,767 --> 00:55:05,037 So, the monkey's like, "Wow, this is great ...," right? 1136 00:55:05,102 --> 00:55:07,242 The monkeys also meet this other guy and they realize 1137 00:55:07,304 --> 00:55:08,644 this guy starts with three grapes. 1138 00:55:08,706 --> 00:55:09,966 He looks like he's a really good deal. 1139 00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:11,640 But every time the monkey pays him, 1140 00:55:11,709 --> 00:55:14,039 he takes one away to give the monkeys just two. 1141 00:55:14,111 --> 00:55:16,711 Now, both of these guys, the guy that, you know, 1142 00:55:16,781 --> 00:55:19,321 looks like he's giving one but he gives two, 1143 00:55:19,384 --> 00:55:21,754 versus the guy that looks like he's giving three but gives two, 1144 00:55:21,819 --> 00:55:23,819 they ultimately give the monkey two, right? 1145 00:55:23,888 --> 00:55:25,418 If the monkey was being rational, 1146 00:55:25,490 --> 00:55:27,220 he would just shop randomly between the two. 1147 00:55:27,291 --> 00:55:29,361 But what we find is that the monkeys 1148 00:55:29,427 --> 00:55:30,957 overwhelmingly shop at the guy who 1149 00:55:31,028 --> 00:55:32,628 starts with one and gives them two-- 1150 00:55:32,697 --> 00:55:34,327 the guy who looks like he's giving a bonus-- 1151 00:55:34,399 --> 00:55:35,769 even though, in fact, 1152 00:55:35,833 --> 00:55:37,303 the monkeys are getting the same amount of food. 1153 00:55:37,368 --> 00:55:39,538 JONES: I'm going back to the 2008 crash. 1154 00:55:39,604 --> 00:55:42,574 What-- what effect did that have on your research? 1155 00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:44,010 Oftentimes when you study monkeys, 1156 00:55:44,074 --> 00:55:46,644 you're studying, uh, whether the monkeys can do 1157 00:55:46,711 --> 00:55:48,251 all the smart things that humans do 1158 00:55:48,312 --> 00:55:49,752 like tool use and language 1159 00:55:49,814 --> 00:55:52,724 and all these incredibly smart things that people do. 1160 00:55:52,783 --> 00:55:54,953 And often, the monkeys come up a bit short. 1161 00:55:55,019 --> 00:55:57,619 And, so, it was really a game-changer for the research 1162 00:55:57,688 --> 00:55:59,758 because we could now ask the question, 1163 00:55:59,824 --> 00:56:02,794 not "Are monkeys similar to humans because monkeys are so smart?" 1164 00:56:02,860 --> 00:56:05,330 We could ask, "Are monkeys similar to humans 1165 00:56:05,396 --> 00:56:06,856 because in some ways they're so dumb?" 1166 00:56:06,931 --> 00:56:09,031 Uh, my colleague, Keith Chen, is fond of saying, 1167 00:56:09,099 --> 00:56:10,939 you know, if you plotted the monkey's data 1168 00:56:11,001 --> 00:56:13,041 and you didn't know the data were from a monkey, 1169 00:56:13,103 --> 00:56:16,413 you would just expect that they were from a real human market. 1170 00:56:16,474 --> 00:56:17,914 The human strategies we're seeing 1171 00:56:17,975 --> 00:56:21,345 in real markets are just evolutionarily really old. 1172 00:56:21,412 --> 00:56:24,552 They're kind of leftover strategies from 35 million years ago. 1173 00:56:26,383 --> 00:56:27,593 KAHNEMAN: Not only do people 1174 00:56:27,652 --> 00:56:30,992 value outcomes as gains and losses, 1175 00:56:31,055 --> 00:56:33,855 they value losses a lot more than gains. 1176 00:56:33,924 --> 00:56:36,064 But it leads to this bias where losses, 1177 00:56:36,126 --> 00:56:37,926 these changes that go in the negative direction, 1178 00:56:37,995 --> 00:56:39,425 we go in the red, 1179 00:56:39,497 --> 00:56:41,797 they just feel emotionally more powerful 1180 00:56:41,866 --> 00:56:44,096 than these changes in a positive direction, 1181 00:56:44,168 --> 00:56:46,238 and that can lead us to do all kinds of crazy things. 1182 00:56:46,303 --> 00:56:48,343 We're so trying to avoid these 1183 00:56:48,405 --> 00:56:50,335 small relative changes in the red 1184 00:56:50,407 --> 00:56:52,307 that we do things like take on more risk. 1185 00:56:52,376 --> 00:56:54,336 JONES: What can we do about that? 1186 00:56:54,411 --> 00:56:57,111 SANTOS: The idea is that we just have to admit that we have these biases, 1187 00:56:57,181 --> 00:56:59,521 that they're old and hard to get rid of, 1188 00:56:59,584 --> 00:57:00,854 and then we kind of have to design policies 1189 00:57:00,918 --> 00:57:02,588 and markets and systems around them. 1190 00:57:02,653 --> 00:57:04,493 I'm quite skeptical 1191 00:57:04,555 --> 00:57:06,385 about the idea that 1192 00:57:06,457 --> 00:57:08,557 individuals can make themselves smarter 1193 00:57:08,626 --> 00:57:11,726 or can make them de-bias themselves. 1194 00:57:11,796 --> 00:57:13,626 A little, not much. 1195 00:57:13,698 --> 00:57:15,898 On the other hand, I think organizations, 1196 00:57:15,966 --> 00:57:18,896 if they are very conscious of what they want to accomplish, 1197 00:57:18,969 --> 00:57:21,669 they, quite possibly, can put in place 1198 00:57:21,739 --> 00:57:23,739 procedures that will protect them 1199 00:57:23,808 --> 00:57:25,678 from different kinds of errors. 1200 00:57:25,743 --> 00:57:29,283 We change the system rather than our behavior. 1201 00:57:29,346 --> 00:57:31,346 Yeah, like, I mean, we've had these strategies 1202 00:57:31,415 --> 00:57:32,775 for 35 million years. 1203 00:57:32,850 --> 00:57:36,150 That is an evolutionary enormous amount of time. 1204 00:57:36,220 --> 00:57:37,860 We're not gonna just kind of override them 1205 00:57:37,922 --> 00:57:39,722 because in 2008, we did some dumb things. 1206 00:57:39,790 --> 00:57:41,590 Like, those things are here to stay. 1207 00:57:41,659 --> 00:57:42,929 We're gonna be much better off 1208 00:57:42,993 --> 00:57:45,133 if we change the system around those biases. 1209 00:57:45,195 --> 00:57:46,795 So, hey, we're not rational, 1210 00:57:46,864 --> 00:57:49,034 but we can be smart enough to set up the system 1211 00:57:49,099 --> 00:57:50,469 to allow us to thrive 1212 00:57:50,535 --> 00:57:53,335 even though we have these biases that are a little bit dumb. 1213 00:57:53,403 --> 00:57:55,213 The real problem here 1214 00:57:55,272 --> 00:57:57,242 is not the particular events 1215 00:57:57,307 --> 00:57:59,907 that kicked off the crash in 2008, 1216 00:57:59,977 --> 00:58:03,577 the real problem is the way the banking system is designed. 1217 00:58:03,648 --> 00:58:05,318 There are two things, really, about it. 1218 00:58:05,382 --> 00:58:06,782 I mean, one is to understand 1219 00:58:06,851 --> 00:58:09,351 the systemic nature of financial instability. 1220 00:58:09,419 --> 00:58:11,259 But the other part of it, actually, is 1221 00:58:11,321 --> 00:58:12,661 if you do understand 1222 00:58:12,723 --> 00:58:14,763 the systemic nature of instability, 1223 00:58:14,825 --> 00:58:17,355 then, lots of other things have to change. 1224 00:58:17,427 --> 00:58:19,127 If you are determined 1225 00:58:19,196 --> 00:58:21,626 to make sure that it-- it doesn't come back 1226 00:58:21,699 --> 00:58:24,369 uh, you know, within ten or 15 years and-- 1227 00:58:24,434 --> 00:58:26,044 and bite you in the backside again. 1228 00:58:26,103 --> 00:58:28,243 We've come up, as human beings, 1229 00:58:28,305 --> 00:58:31,375 with the most fragile design of financial system 1230 00:58:31,441 --> 00:58:33,311 we could possibly think of. 1231 00:58:33,377 --> 00:58:35,647 So, we need to re-think 1232 00:58:35,713 --> 00:58:38,523 what we need a financial system for, 1233 00:58:38,583 --> 00:58:40,593 and then design one 1234 00:58:40,651 --> 00:58:44,451 that will, uh, provide those various functions. 1235 00:58:44,521 --> 00:58:47,561 And that might mean separating out 1236 00:58:47,625 --> 00:58:50,185 the retail, the basic banking stuff, 1237 00:58:50,260 --> 00:58:53,130 from the rather higher-octane investment banking stuff. 1238 00:58:53,197 --> 00:58:54,397 And then, we can have 1239 00:58:54,464 --> 00:58:56,434 another part of the financial system 1240 00:58:56,500 --> 00:58:57,640 that does riskier stuff, 1241 00:58:57,702 --> 00:58:59,402 but we don't allow them 1242 00:58:59,469 --> 00:59:00,969 to, you know, take 1243 00:59:01,038 --> 00:59:03,208 funds away from households, 1244 00:59:03,273 --> 00:59:05,113 from firms, from pension funds. 1245 00:59:05,175 --> 00:59:07,135 We can redesign cars, 1246 00:59:07,211 --> 00:59:10,581 so why can't we redesign the economic system? 1247 00:59:10,648 --> 00:59:12,918 I got a hundred-dollar check from my grandma, 1248 00:59:12,983 --> 00:59:14,383 and my dad said I need to put it in the bank 1249 00:59:14,451 --> 00:59:15,551 so it can grow over the years. 1250 00:59:15,620 --> 00:59:17,490 Well, that's fantastic. 1251 00:59:17,554 --> 00:59:19,064 A really smart decision, young man. 1252 00:59:19,123 --> 00:59:22,233 We can put that check in a money market mutual fund. 1253 00:59:22,292 --> 00:59:25,062 Then we'll reinvest the earnings into foreign currency accounts 1254 00:59:25,129 --> 00:59:28,069 with compounding interest, and it's gone. 1255 00:59:35,105 --> 00:59:36,365 Uh, what? 1256 00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:38,040 It's gone. It's all gone. 1257 00:59:39,844 --> 00:59:41,654 -What's all gone? -The money in your account. 1258 00:59:41,712 --> 00:59:43,812 It didn't do too well. It's gone. 1259 00:59:43,881 --> 00:59:45,881 What do you mean? I--I have a hundred dollars! 1260 00:59:45,950 --> 00:59:47,890 Not anymore you don't. Poof. 1261 00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:51,460 Well... But what can I do to get back my-- 1262 00:59:51,521 --> 00:59:54,221 I'm sorry, sir, but this line is for bank members only. 1263 00:59:54,291 --> 00:59:55,561 I just opened an account. 1264 00:59:55,626 --> 00:59:57,656 Do you have any money invested with this bank? 1265 00:59:57,728 --> 00:59:58,828 No, you just lost it all. 1266 00:59:58,896 --> 01:00:00,626 Then please stand aside for people 1267 01:00:00,698 --> 01:00:02,528 who actually have money with us. Next, please. 1268 01:00:02,599 --> 01:00:04,499 Today there, the crisis in particular 1269 01:00:04,568 --> 01:00:08,008 has caused a lot of students to want to learn economics. 1270 01:00:08,072 --> 01:00:10,982 This happened with the Depression generation as well. 1271 01:00:11,041 --> 01:00:13,481 Many of the people, like Hyman Minsky, 1272 01:00:13,543 --> 01:00:14,983 came into economics 1273 01:00:15,045 --> 01:00:17,105 because of that experience of their childhood. 1274 01:00:17,181 --> 01:00:18,821 They felt this was something important 1275 01:00:18,883 --> 01:00:21,093 that they needed to understand. 1276 01:00:21,151 --> 01:00:23,391 They didn't find the economics that they were taught 1277 01:00:23,453 --> 01:00:24,823 to be very helpful. 1278 01:00:29,359 --> 01:00:33,259 The average Ph.D. economist would train for five years, 1279 01:00:33,330 --> 01:00:37,230 and they would never learn anything about the history 1280 01:00:37,301 --> 01:00:40,271 of the economic system that had preceded them. 1281 01:00:40,337 --> 01:00:43,467 If you would spend the class, uh, for a whole semester, 1282 01:00:43,540 --> 01:00:46,540 and you learn about one financial crisis after another, 1283 01:00:46,610 --> 01:00:48,210 it might occur to that student 1284 01:00:48,278 --> 01:00:50,978 that financial crises are a regular part of an economy, 1285 01:00:51,048 --> 01:00:54,348 whereas if you don't really make that the focus and you kind of mention, 1286 01:00:54,418 --> 01:00:57,548 "Yeah, oh, yeah, there was a crisis here, there was a crisis there," 1287 01:00:57,621 --> 01:01:01,691 it's a lot easier to convince a student that crises aren't natural, 1288 01:01:01,759 --> 01:01:03,589 that it's some fault of a government 1289 01:01:03,660 --> 01:01:05,100 or some particular action 1290 01:01:05,162 --> 01:01:08,072 that caused the crisis in this peculiar situation, 1291 01:01:08,132 --> 01:01:11,102 but that's not the normal tendency of an economy. 1292 01:01:29,086 --> 01:01:32,256 WOMAN: We're all undergraduates at the University of Manchester, 1293 01:01:32,322 --> 01:01:34,932 and we're members of the Post- Crash Economics Society. 1294 01:01:34,992 --> 01:01:37,132 We set up at the end of last year 1295 01:01:37,194 --> 01:01:39,934 'cause we feel that our economics education so far 1296 01:01:39,997 --> 01:01:42,027 has been quite limited. 1297 01:01:42,099 --> 01:01:43,929 One of the main issues is that economics 1298 01:01:44,001 --> 01:01:45,671 has been caught in this trap where... 1299 01:01:45,736 --> 01:01:49,066 uh... Funding for universities is entirely determined, 1300 01:01:49,139 --> 01:01:51,939 well, by and large determined, by research. 1301 01:01:52,009 --> 01:01:53,779 And the research that is going to get published 1302 01:01:53,844 --> 01:01:56,254 is the mainstream, is neoclassical economics. 1303 01:01:56,313 --> 01:01:58,353 As a result, that's what we're being taught. 1304 01:01:58,415 --> 01:02:01,715 The beauty of science, of true science, physics, chemistry, 1305 01:02:01,786 --> 01:02:04,286 is that there is a-- there is a debate between key theorists, 1306 01:02:04,354 --> 01:02:06,424 between, you know, different ideas. 1307 01:02:06,490 --> 01:02:08,590 Whereas, in economics, that debate simply isn't big enough, 1308 01:02:08,658 --> 01:02:11,028 or it's not large enough, and that's what we're fighting for. 1309 01:02:11,095 --> 01:02:15,965 Our education produces economists who do believe that 1310 01:02:16,033 --> 01:02:19,243 their type of economics is the only way to do economics. 1311 01:02:19,303 --> 01:02:21,143 I mean, there's very little of our degree 1312 01:02:21,205 --> 01:02:23,665 which is devoted to analyzing 1313 01:02:23,740 --> 01:02:27,280 what happened in 2008 and what happened in the 1920s, 1314 01:02:27,344 --> 01:02:30,654 which I think must be a fundamental part of any economics degree. 1315 01:02:30,714 --> 01:02:32,384 -Yeah. -It's embarrassing... 1316 01:02:32,449 --> 01:02:36,049 going home and people asking, "Oh, so you do economics? 1317 01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:37,750 What happened in 2008?" 1318 01:02:37,822 --> 01:02:39,322 And I can't tell them. 1319 01:02:39,389 --> 01:02:42,189 What I think we'd all like to see is, you know, 1320 01:02:42,259 --> 01:02:45,059 economists with a critical mind coming out of university, 1321 01:02:45,129 --> 01:02:47,799 and into the city and into public policy. 1322 01:02:47,865 --> 01:02:49,265 And you'll have-- and hopefully you-- 1323 01:02:49,333 --> 01:02:51,373 you'll have policy that reflects as well. 1324 01:02:51,435 --> 01:02:54,195 You'll have a financial sector that reflects that 1325 01:02:54,271 --> 01:02:58,041 rather than just, you know, this one-dimensional myopia. 1326 01:02:58,108 --> 01:03:01,408 We want to be economists and we want to see economists 1327 01:03:01,478 --> 01:03:02,908 coming out of universities 1328 01:03:02,980 --> 01:03:05,480 that can engage with the real world economy, 1329 01:03:05,549 --> 01:03:08,249 whereas at the moment we don't feel we can. 1330 01:03:08,318 --> 01:03:11,188 That's what we think is the point of economics. 1331 01:03:11,255 --> 01:03:13,255 I think that's sort of gotten lost somewhere. 1332 01:03:29,106 --> 01:03:32,076 The way you change the teaching of economics 1333 01:03:32,142 --> 01:03:33,782 is to change the teachers. 1334 01:03:33,844 --> 01:03:35,214 It's as simple as that. 1335 01:03:35,279 --> 01:03:38,049 You're not gonna get into a situation where... 1336 01:03:38,115 --> 01:03:42,685 the teachers who spent decades building up expertise 1337 01:03:42,752 --> 01:03:45,492 in very mainstream approaches are going to simply say, 1338 01:03:45,555 --> 01:03:47,415 "Oh, yes, well, that was all a complete waste of time. 1339 01:03:47,491 --> 01:03:49,931 I'm gonna go do something else." They simply won't. 1340 01:03:49,994 --> 01:03:51,634 Right. Now, listen up. 1341 01:03:51,695 --> 01:03:54,295 ( grunting ) 1342 01:03:56,333 --> 01:03:59,773 And so, what I think is, the professors 1343 01:03:59,836 --> 01:04:03,066 start parroting these party lines. 1344 01:04:03,140 --> 01:04:04,670 I think you should just pelt them with vegetables 1345 01:04:04,741 --> 01:04:07,681 and rotten fruit, and maybe urinate on them. 1346 01:04:07,744 --> 01:04:09,854 That's what, I mean, that's what I'd do. 1347 01:04:13,217 --> 01:04:16,547 And there's gonna have to be a different approach to how this stuff is taught. 1348 01:04:16,620 --> 01:04:18,860 It shouldn't be taught as branch of physics. 1349 01:04:18,923 --> 01:04:20,693 It should be taught as a piece of history, 1350 01:04:20,757 --> 01:04:24,787 or as an idea that economics is again a social thought. 1351 01:04:24,861 --> 01:04:26,931 It's something that we all do together. 1352 01:04:26,997 --> 01:04:29,967 I--I was at a conference once 1353 01:04:30,034 --> 01:04:32,744 with a, uh, economist from Freddie Mac. 1354 01:04:32,802 --> 01:04:37,172 That's one of the agencies that failed in the 2008 crisis. 1355 01:04:37,241 --> 01:04:39,841 I asked him about-- this was before the crisis-- 1356 01:04:39,910 --> 01:04:41,710 about what kind of planning 1357 01:04:41,778 --> 01:04:43,848 they had been doing for a crisis. 1358 01:04:43,914 --> 01:04:47,454 And he said confidently, "We have it planned. 1359 01:04:47,517 --> 01:04:50,287 So, we have figured out what would happen to us 1360 01:04:50,354 --> 01:04:53,724 even if home prices fell dramatically, 1361 01:04:53,790 --> 01:04:56,160 and we would survive the storm." 1362 01:04:56,226 --> 01:04:58,156 And I said, "Well, how much is dramatically?" 1363 01:04:58,228 --> 01:05:00,028 He said, "Well, we've figured out 1364 01:05:00,097 --> 01:05:05,737 what would be the effect on us if home prices fell 13%." 1365 01:05:05,802 --> 01:05:09,812 And I said, "Well, what if they fall more than 13%?" 1366 01:05:09,873 --> 01:05:11,943 And then, he said, "What do you mean? 1367 01:05:12,009 --> 01:05:13,979 They've never fallen that much." 1368 01:05:14,044 --> 01:05:16,484 He said, "Well, not since The Great Depression." 1369 01:05:16,546 --> 01:05:18,176 One of the things that we learn 1370 01:05:18,248 --> 01:05:20,448 from the study of history 1371 01:05:20,517 --> 01:05:23,817 is that people learn nothing from history, 1372 01:05:23,887 --> 01:05:27,657 or they tend to repeat the mistakes of the past, 1373 01:05:27,724 --> 01:05:31,604 and I think that's because of human nature. 1374 01:05:31,661 --> 01:05:33,961 ( music playing ) 1375 01:05:35,499 --> 01:05:40,339 * We're here forever blowing bubbles * 1376 01:05:40,404 --> 01:05:43,774 * Pretty bubbles in the air * 1377 01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:46,680 * They fly so high 1378 01:05:46,743 --> 01:05:48,583 * Nearly reach the sky 1379 01:05:48,645 --> 01:05:51,775 * They're like my dreams they fade and die * 1380 01:05:51,848 --> 01:05:53,118 ( groaning ) 1381 01:05:53,183 --> 01:05:57,823 * Fortune's always hiding * 1382 01:05:57,887 --> 01:06:02,157 * We've looked everywhere * 1383 01:06:02,226 --> 01:06:06,056 * We're forever blowing bubbles * 1384 01:06:06,130 --> 01:06:10,900 * Pretty bubbles in the air * 1385 01:06:10,967 --> 01:06:13,297 * We're dreaming dreams * 1386 01:06:13,370 --> 01:06:15,410 * We're scheming schemes * 1387 01:06:15,472 --> 01:06:19,882 * We're building castles high * 1388 01:06:19,943 --> 01:06:22,113 * They're born anew * 1389 01:06:22,179 --> 01:06:24,249 * Their days are few 1390 01:06:24,314 --> 01:06:26,884 * Just like a sweet butterfly * 1391 01:06:26,950 --> 01:06:28,350 ( sighs ) 1392 01:06:28,418 --> 01:06:33,088 * And as the daylight is dawning * 1393 01:06:33,157 --> 01:06:37,727 * They come again in the morning * 1394 01:06:40,530 --> 01:06:45,270 * We're forever blowing bubbles * 1395 01:06:45,335 --> 01:06:50,335 * Pretty bubbles in the air * 1396 01:06:50,407 --> 01:06:53,437 * They fly so high 1397 01:06:53,510 --> 01:06:55,510 * Nearly reach the sky 1398 01:06:55,579 --> 01:07:00,919 * They're like my dreams they fade and die * 1399 01:07:00,984 --> 01:07:05,464 * Fortune's always hiding * 1400 01:07:05,522 --> 01:07:11,132 * We've looked everywhere * 1401 01:07:11,195 --> 01:07:15,165 * We're forever blowing bubbles * 1402 01:07:15,232 --> 01:07:20,242 * Pretty bubbles in the air * 1403 01:07:21,705 --> 01:07:25,035 * We're forever blowing bubbles * 1404 01:07:25,109 --> 01:07:26,609 * Two, three, four 1405 01:07:26,676 --> 01:07:30,246 * Pretty bubbles in the air * 1406 01:07:31,181 --> 01:07:33,481 * They fly so high 1407 01:07:33,550 --> 01:07:36,020 * Nearly reach the sky * 1408 01:07:36,086 --> 01:07:37,986 * Then like my dreams * 1409 01:07:38,054 --> 01:07:41,194 * They fade and die * 1410 01:07:41,258 --> 01:07:46,358 * Fortune's always hiding * 1411 01:07:46,430 --> 01:07:51,270 -* We've looked everywhere * -( groaning ) 1412 01:07:51,335 --> 01:07:55,605 * We're forever blowing bubbles * 1413 01:07:55,672 --> 01:08:00,682 * Pretty bubbles in the air * 1414 01:08:00,744 --> 01:08:07,184 * Pretty bubbles in the air * 1415 01:08:11,321 --> 01:08:13,361 * Yeah 1416 01:08:15,225 --> 01:08:17,255 ( music playing ) 1417 01:08:19,796 --> 01:08:21,866 * Financial instability hypothesis * 1418 01:08:21,931 --> 01:08:24,001 * Boom boom boom boom 1419 01:08:24,067 --> 01:08:26,397 * I need the crystal drop and poppin' * 1420 01:08:26,470 --> 01:08:28,470 * I got diamonds rockin' rockin' * 1421 01:08:28,538 --> 01:08:30,568 * A boom-bust boom-bust keep bumpin' * 1422 01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:32,680 * Minsky wasn't no chump, said somethin' * 1423 01:08:32,742 --> 01:08:34,782 * Greedy motherfuckers need to hear * 1424 01:08:34,844 --> 01:08:37,014 * Shit's going on here all year * 1425 01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:39,380 * Blowin' bubbles, makin' ninja loans * 1426 01:08:39,449 --> 01:08:41,689 * Maybe greed's just in the bones * 1427 01:08:41,751 --> 01:08:43,691 * Blowin' bubbles makin' ninja loans * 1428 01:08:43,753 --> 01:08:45,993 * Maybe greed is just in the bones * 1429 01:08:46,055 --> 01:08:49,955 * Boom bust boom bust 1430 01:08:50,026 --> 01:08:52,226 * Leaving brothers ghost town 1431 01:08:52,296 --> 01:08:54,856 * Negative equity take down 1432 01:08:54,931 --> 01:08:58,601 * Boom bust boom bust 1433 01:08:58,668 --> 01:09:01,098 * Subprime toxic downtown 1434 01:09:01,171 --> 01:09:03,011 * Double dip, triple-A meltdown * 1435 01:09:03,072 --> 01:09:05,182 * Pile of tulip maniacs, free market brainiacs * 1436 01:09:05,242 --> 01:09:07,812 * Wall Street apes buyin' two-for-one grape sale * 1437 01:09:07,877 --> 01:09:09,907 * Never learnin' just turnin' * 1438 01:09:09,979 --> 01:09:12,019 * Stamping papers on the bridge then burn it * 1439 01:09:12,081 --> 01:09:14,381 -* Gimme, gimme that -* Money, money 1440 01:09:14,451 --> 01:09:16,551 -* Need to get that -* Money money 1441 01:09:16,620 --> 01:09:18,620 -* I wanna get that -* Money money 1442 01:09:18,688 --> 01:09:20,818 -* Gimme, gimme that -* Money money 1443 01:09:20,890 --> 01:09:23,190 * Blowing bubbles makin' ninja loans * 1444 01:09:23,260 --> 01:09:25,330 * Maybe greed is just in the bones * 1445 01:09:25,395 --> 01:09:27,425 * Blowing bubbles makin' ninja loans * 1446 01:09:27,497 --> 01:09:30,197 * Maybe greed is just in the bones * 1447 01:09:30,267 --> 01:09:32,397 * Hyman Minksy never lied 1448 01:09:32,469 --> 01:09:34,569 * John Cusack never lied 1449 01:09:34,638 --> 01:09:36,838 * Mr. Krugman never lied 1450 01:09:36,906 --> 01:09:38,976 * Ted Crocker never lied 1451 01:09:39,042 --> 01:09:40,982 * Terry Jones never lied 1452 01:09:41,044 --> 01:09:42,914 * Bill and Ben never lied 1453 01:09:42,979 --> 01:09:45,219 * Justin Weyers never lied 1454 01:09:45,282 --> 01:09:47,382 * Chris and John never lied 1455 01:09:47,451 --> 01:09:49,951 * ...never lied 1456 01:09:50,019 --> 01:09:52,059 * Andre never lied 1457 01:09:52,121 --> 01:09:53,921 * ...never lied 1458 01:09:53,990 --> 01:09:55,860 * Triple-A meltdown 1459 01:09:55,925 --> 01:09:58,695 * Financial instability hypothesis boom * 1460 01:10:00,530 --> 01:10:04,730 * Financial instability hypothesis boom * 1461 01:10:04,801 --> 01:10:07,301 * Financial instability hypothesis boom * 1462 01:10:08,938 --> 01:10:12,208 * Financial instability hypothesis boom * 109612

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