Original subtitles

Thanks again for all this, especially on a Sunday.

What would you usually be doing? Shopping or…

Oh, I don't know. Possibly.

Well, if we could just rattle through some of these questions

then we know what we're doing if we press more charges.

When… we press more charges.

The sooner we do, the sooner you can get home.

And remember, you're not under any kind of caution. Okay?

Mm-hmm.

Okay. Time is 15:42, Sunday, 8th March.

Present in the room, Detective Constable Vanessa Warren and…

Julia Bryce.

If you could also give your date of birth.

Twentieth January 1972.

Thank you. Now, one of the things that's come up

since Philip's conviction for the murder of Max Peeters

was the name Luca Passero.

Does that name mean anything to you at all?

Yes.

It's okay. Just aim your answers at me. The mic will pick it up.

So, you know that name? Yeah?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

And how is it that you know that name, that individual?

Um, he was one of Philip's students.

Philip being your husband.

No.

Yes, well, we're separated.

So he was a pupil of your former partner, Philip Bryce?

Correct. At Northgreen.

The English language school?

Correct.

Thank you.

It's okay. You're doing great.

I'd forgotten what it's like.

Talking to people like you.

Well, we're opening up old wounds here, aren't we?

It's hard.

Julia, do you see Luca Passero in any of the pictures?

On the end.

For the record, Ms. Bryce has indicated Exhibit 1C.

You met Luca in person?

Yes.

At the language school?

No, at home.

Philip had one of his barbecues. The one that Max Peeters was at.

The one that was mentioned at the murder trial and…

Luca was there too.

The first time I met him. Shy boy.

Then after, when Max went missing,

or so people thought at the time…

Luca started to come over more and more.

So even after Max Peeters disappeared,

Luca would still come over to see your husband?

- Ex-husband. - Ex-husband. Sorry.

And the last time that you saw Luca?

Well…

In the days prior to Philip's arrest…

He went back to Italy, I think.

Malpensa?

Malpenso?

Is that it? Is that where he's from?

I really haven't…

Heard about him at all, to be honest, then or since.

You have to remember, my husband had been arrested for murder and…

Everything was in pieces. I was… shattered.

Not as in tired. As in…

In pieces.

It's okay.

Why?

Julia, we've been contacted by a magistrate in Milan.

They've been looking for Luca Passero.

Now, he did buy a plane ticket to Milan on 28th September.

He also got one for the Gatwick Express,

but there's no evidence that he made either of those journeys.

The Italian police don't think that he ever came home.

Please, God, no.

Don't tell me he's killed another one.

What you can do here is,

you can help us to get some justice for Luca Passero.

That's the aim. To check what you know against what Philip's already told us.

- Does that make sense? - Mm-hmm.

So… you've interviewed him already? Philip?

Not me personally. I don't do the big interviews.

I support, or I do the smaller ones.

What, like this, you mean? With witnesses?

So, he's been charged with this as well, has he, or…?

Not yet.

When will this nightmare ever end?

Besides everything else, Philip has children from his first marriage.

Grandchildren.

It's the first thing I said when this came out: People will know what he's done.

Friends, family, people connected with their schools.

It's not just him who bears the brunt.

- Julia… - Christ almighty!

I want you to focus.

Stick to the questions.

Now…

Philip stuck to what he'd said in court about Max Peeters.

Said he'd had a sexual relationship with him,

but that he did not kill him…

Then when we asked him about Luca,

he said that Luca had never even visited the house.

Though he did say that he had kissed Luca

at the college, not long after Max's body was found,

in a sort of… sort of…

What did he say? Hang on.

"In a sort of passionate state of grief."

Said he'd, "liked Luca a lot,

and I was sad that he'd returned to Italy."

Well, there you go.

Sorry?

He did go back to Italy.

But as for never visiting the house…

- Well, like I said, simply not true. - Okay.

So there were three things that Philip said

in his most recent statement that we wanted to check.

The next one is to do with the jumper.

From Zara.

Yeah, you've half-answered me already.

Got a black Merino wool sweater from Zara.

A medium.

I don't shop at Zara.

What about Philip?

Philip doesn't shop at Zara.

Look, I bought all his clothes.

After about two years of marriage, around the time he… gave up,

I bought everything for him.

Not on his card, on our shared account.

And not in a medium, in an extra-large.

And certainly not in Zara.

Our thought was that it might've been a present for someone.

Now, our third thing that we wanted to check was your trip to Bristol.

The two of you.

Now, Philip said in his statement that you went to Bristol together

on the 28th and 29th…

Of…?

September.

We have CCTV of your car there.

We have CCTV from the bottom of a road called Gloucester Road on the Saturday,

and a place near Cabot Circus, which is also in Bristol, on the Sunday.

Green Vauxhall Corsa, second half of 2009.

Yeah.

So… you were there?

Yeah, yeah. It's where my mother lives.

She's having her garden redone.

I was there on my own. Philip never came. He never liked her.

He said she's… bad tempered.

So he's lying, then?

She is, but that's not her. That's her… her insomnia.

Sorry?

So he's lying?

Yes, if that's what he's claiming, then yes.

Are you married?

No.

Have a partner?

Well…

…if you ever do,

make sure you find out what your friends, your parents, your mother,

most importantly…

What they really think of this person

you're planning on binding yourself to, because they won't offer that up.

No, you have to force that information out of them.

But on this one particular point, more than anything else,

they have perspective, they can stand back and…

Take it all in.

See this relationship for…

What it really is.

And if they sense you're doing the wrong thing…

You need to make sure they tell you,

rather than be all British about it.

Otherwise, you'll end up like me,

sitting on patio chairs in Bristol…

With your mother giving you hour after hour of I-told-you-so's,

all the while forgetting, until now, she never said a thing.

You don't need me lecturing you.

No, you're all right.

On a Sunday!

Julia.

If you want to talk, talk.

It sounds like smart advice.

You're being kind.

If you do find the right man…

Then follow your heart.

I mean, that is… That's my actual advice.

They don't all end up strangling people with leather belts…

- Hey. - …standing on the back of their necks,

throttling them all till there's not a breath left in their bloody bodies.

Stop it. We're doing really well here, me and you.

I'm not having you go back over stuff that you don't need to.

It's not going to happen.

We'll get this done and get it done right.

Okay, okay, now let's just take a minute,

get ourselves together, and then we can continue.

Thank you. Thank you.

I can't explain it down the phone. I was hoping you might come here.

Yes. I'm aware what day it is.

If it wasn't important I wouldn't be calling on a Sunday.

Thank you. Do you want to give me a rough ETA or…

Fine.

Are you sure he's dead?

We're treating it that way.

But…

If there's no proof, then it strikes me…

His phone was switched off on the 28th.

He hasn't withdrawn any money or anything from any shop,

hasn't posted anything on social media, and he was on that all the time.

His life, it just…

Stopped.

Thanks for this.

- So? - So, this is Julia.

Bryce's ex-wife. DC Warren and I are...

Comparing her statement against Philip's, yeah. And?

Well, DC Warren was going through the list of points we were given.

That's all been going fine.

Then, Miss Bryce starts saying this whole thing about how

being married to a killer is, well,

far from ideal.

Then at the end of her speech,

she mentions how her husband was someone who strangled people.

Which he did.

Yes.

Yeah.

- Yes. - Yeah.

He strangled Max Peeters with a leather belt.

Yes, by standing on the back of the neck and pulling upwards.

Yes. That's what happened.

Yes.

But some of the details she mentioned are not details she should know.

They never came up in Philip's interview, or at his trial.

That was only in the pathologist's report.

Which she's never seen?

Right, so Vanessa's clocked it, yeah?

So why haven't you told her?

The interview hasn't stopped since it became a thing.

Then we need to stop it.

Do we?

- Yeah, we might need to caution her. - But we also might not.

Nobody knows I've spotted what I've spotted.

She trusts DC Warren,

and she's started speaking very freely, in my view.

We can just let her carry on incriminating herself.

Can't we?

I get it, it's Sunday. I get it. But…

We are your team too, you know?

Yeah, I could explain it down the phone, Tony,

but it might be one of those where you're better off coming in.

What are we dealing with?

When did you first realize that Philip was into his male students?

Well, when I did that…

That thing with his thumb.

While he was asleep, I'd get his phone,

put his thumb on it so the lock would open,

and I'd read all these WhatsApp messages to Max,

messages to Luca…

- Are you sure they were to Luca? - Absolutely.

- We don't have any record of... - No, I deleted them, all of them.

Without telling him.

So that when he went to send the next one he'd find the others were gone.

Wifey's way of saying, "I'm onto you"

without actually having to confront it in person.

And it made you angry?

No, I was…

Embarrassed for him more than anything else.

The never-ending… flattery.

Mortifying.

And what did they say, the messages?

What you want is for more of these things to come up in their conversation.

Other facts, known only to the killer.

Question is, are we allowed to let this continue?

'Course we are.

But we now have reason to believe she may be the killer.

Yes, but Vanessa doesn't know that, so until she comes out, we're fine.

It's like that philosophy thing, isn't it?

If a tree falls in the woods and there's no one there to hear it… No?

Does it make a sound?

Yeah.

They don't know what they don't know. So let them get on with it.

That's what I said. If she knows we're onto her she'll stop talking.

Here we go. Look.

"The killer, when using a leather belt, pulled upwards and tightened from behind."

- You got that? - Mm-hmm.

The fact killer "stood on the base of the neck to gain purchase."

She said that.

Did she?

She said "stood on their neck."

Okay.

And this… Rohypnol?

"Rohypnol was ingested by Max Peeters at, or prior to strangulation."

That hasn't been disclosed?

Hang on. Why would she have had Rohypnol?

How are you feeling?

Want to stop, get a cup of tea, take a break?

There's only so much more I can help you with.

May as well press on till the end,

providing this is useful to you in some way.

No, it's great.

You don't say!

Let's make triple sure.

So we've got Philip Bryce,

on the brink of being charged for his second murder,

but we're now thinking not only is he innocent,

he might not have committed the first one either?

The one he was sent down for in November?

Yes.

Then we've got his wife in with Vanessa, accidentally confessing to all of this,

and all without Vanessa realizing that's what's going on?

- Yeah. - And yet…

Vanessa's actually doing a pretty great job?

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I thought that's what you said on the phone.

We just got to make sure that we can use what she's saying.

If she doesn't know she's being questioned for murder…

She's not being questioned for murder. That's not the call.

Not until I've made it.

Did Luca tell you that he was going back to Italy?

No, Philip told me.

How did Philip feel about that, can you remember?

He seemed, um…

Surprisingly upset.

That was the impression he gave.

Although if Philip wanted everyone to think Luca was going back to Italy,

if that were some form of distraction like I think you're suggesting, then…

Maybe his reaction was just an act.

Oh…

Christ, I don't want to think like this. Like him.

It's okay, we're nearly done.

The minute they break, I want you cueing up the relevant bits of the tape.

It's not that I don't believe you, but we need to double-check these contradictions.

Then we can arrest her, at least for the murder of Luca Passero.

That'll buy us time to work out what to do about Philip

and the murder of Max Peeters.

Why, Julia, if Philip liked these guys, would he have killed them?

Because he was tortured.

The poor man chased and chased, and…

None of these beautiful young boys ever wanted to know.

Story of his life, so he ended up…

He said all this to me once.

In the house in Dorset where we sometimes go. Let it all out.

"It's bad enough I feel the things that I feel,

but they barely even look."

…he said to me, in this great…

Outpouring of self-pity.

To which I said…

"Well…

How do you think I feel?"

Rejection. That's my theory.

"If I can't have them, no one can."

This…

This has all been very helpful.

Thank you.

You've been honest…

Brave…

It's just a shame it's a Sunday and there aren't more people here to see it.

Is there anything else that you want to tell me about Luca?

Right, well, then I'll quickly summarize and you're free to go.

Okay.

You met Luca at the house.

Yes.

You were alone in Bristol on 28th and 29th September.

Yes.

- Philip wasn't there. - No.

This is something your mother can confirm?

Correct.

Actually,

if it helps,

I always go into Boots at Cribbs Causeway

on the way to see Mum, pick up her pills.

And that will have CCTV and…

Philip won't be on that.

She's full-on, but she's not stupid.

In rubbishing his alibi, she's also creating her own.

Wow.

Okay, interview ends at 17:32.

I'll walk you back down.

Jamie.

I won't come to court, just so you know.

As a witness, yes, but not every day. I just can't.

I get that.

I need this to be over for me.

Vanessa?

Can we just hold on a minute?

Look, I bought all his clothes.

After about two years of marriage, around the time he…

Then follow your heart. I mean, that…

That is my actual advice.

This is it.

They don't all end up strangling people with leather belts…

Standing on the back of their necks,

throttling them all till there's not a breath left in their bloody bodies.

That's enough.

17:38. That's the time we put in the notes.

This is me, making the call.

Julia Bryce.

I'm arresting you for the murder of Luca Passero.

You do not have to say anything but it may harm your defense if you do not mention…

But I've just been questioned.

What is this? You said it was informal.

Anything you say may be given in evidence, is that clear?

No, it's not clear. It's not clear at all.

She mentioned details only the killer would know. More than one.

Kyle spotted it.

The belt being leather.

Foot on the back of the neck.

The angle.

I'm sorry, Guv. Didn't clock it.

Well, that's what the observation room's for, isn't it?

- What you did was great. - Yeah.

If we'd have stopped it, we'd have to charge her.

So we just let you continue while we were double-checking.

She was chatting for England,

which is credit to you, the relationship you had with her.

She said things about the Peeters murder only the killer would know,

and if she killed Peeters,

there's a high likelihood that she killed Luca.

So we've got a double murderer on our hands.

Serial killer.

No, a serial killer needs three victims,

killed over a period greater than 30 days.

He's right.

You mean less than 30 days?

No, that's a spree killer.

He's right.

So what happens now?

We bring her back tomorrow.

We hit her with the facts.

Push for a confession.

So who do we want doing the interview?

Well, we want to cash in on all that lovely rapport.

We want Vanessa.

But we'll have everyone in, please. Usual time.

One thing I look forward to on a Sunday is chocolate after five-a-side.

I never got to play five-a-side but I've decided that's not my fault,

so therefore…

Why not treat myself to a Galaxy, anyway?

And they say Keith Richards is rock and roll!

It's the biggest case we've ever done.

Well, it's up there anyway.

Go on, then. What's up?

I just…

Feel like I was the only one who wasn't in on it.

That's what I like, being in on things.

That's my thing.

Now everyone's acting like I've been given this big break, this interview,

but it don't work like that for me.

No, you've got her cornered on double murder.

No, we have.

All of us.

I just want to be part of the team.

I'm not ambitious.

But you're not allowed to say that you're not ambitious, not these days.

Do you want me to do it?

I'll look like I've bottled it.

Or we could do it together.

That'll look like I've bottled it and I can't admit it.

Maybe I am bottling it.

I've never done this before.

I've never asked for it either.

What does she mean about rapport, anyway? There'll be none left.

She'll think I was trying to trap her, which I wasn't.

Well…

I'm glad someone's happy.

Well, I am happy.

I'm always the one getting advice from you, aren't I?

Finally it's my go.

Right…

First, not only can you do it, you'll do it brilliantly.

Second, as to whether you want to do it or not…

Get over yourself. It's not an invitation, it's an order.

And those young men and their families could do with this,

so you get in there and you show us how talented you are,

and if you don't want to do it next time, then that's a different story.

- Is that it? - That's the thrust of it. Yeah.

Yeah, it sounded good. Convincing. Still bricking it, though, but thank you.

No problem.

Don't think I've forgotten, by the way.

What did she say?

Oh, no. This little conversation we're having, it's not about me.

- Tony! - No, it's about you.

You did ask her, didn't you?

Well, you were there. You saw me.

And?

This way, please.

- Any tea, coffee? - Let's just get on with this.

Interview commences at 9:47 a.m. on 9th March.

Present in the room, Detective Constable Warren and…

Nasreen Shah, solicitor for Ms. Bryce.

And?

I'm not talking to you.

Julia Bryce.

Julia, as you know,

we've decided to arrest you for the murder of Luca Passero,

that is, after my colleagues reviewed some of the things that you mentioned

in the witness interview that you gave yesterday.

What I'd like to do now is go back ov…

Go over, sorry…

Some of those details with you now.

While you try to find your place there,

I think we should take a moment to check protocol here.

You brought my client in here yesterday without caution,

and yet within minutes of her leaving this room,

you're springing murder charges on her.

Yes, but like I said…

You must be certain you know what you're doing here,

positive that what was said yesterday can be used in court,

and that it doesn't undermine what gets said in here today,

because if it does, you watch me…

I'll take it,

and I'll use it to make this whole thing go away.

It's Vanessa, isn't it?

Do you understand where I'm coming from, Vanessa?

It's like one of those football matches, isn't it?

Where your team can't get a kick at the ball.

You can relate to that, can you?

See, I'd hate to false start, and you…

You seem a bit nervous to me, so…

I am a bit nervous.

But not for the reasons you're talking about.

We've checked all that, followed all the guidelines.

The decision to arrest was made after the interview

as they wanted to check the tape.

Now, I'm nervous because even with all this evidence,

I'll come up against a woman who won't confess.

'Cause then we'll go to trial, and like she says herself,

there's a load of stress and anxiety that comes with a trial.

Those are tough things to sit through.

So that's what I'm concerned about, Nasreen.

It is Nasreen, isn't it?

Julia…

You said yesterday

that Philip used a leather belt to strangle all his victims.

- Did I? - Yes.

16:12, you said exactly that.

You also said that he was strangled from behind.

Um, I don't think so.

You don't remember saying it or you don't remember doing it?

You also said

that the killer ended up standing on the back of their necks.

How do you know all these things?

You tell me.

I don't know how you know. I am asking you.

Philip… would have told me.

Really? When?

Afterwards.

But when, afterwards?

After his arrest.

So Philip told you that he'd killed Max Peeters after his arrest?

Yeah.

We've checked all the contact you've had with Philip,

subsequent to his arrest, and there's nothing.

You haven't called or messaged him since. He hasn't called or messaged you either.

He has one call to a 19-year-old man called Alvaro who works near Paddington.

And this Alvaro guy, he's not come into contact with you either.

Luckily, I reckon.

For Alvaro.

So once again…

How did you know?

Oh, no, no. Sorry.

Um…

The truth is, yes…

He did tell me, but…

He told me beforehand.

Before it happened?

It's nonsense.

It's nonsense that's hard to disprove.

I didn't take it seriously, otherwise I would have…

Said something, warned someone.

If I'd thought that, that would have been my moral obligation.

But you can't blame yourself. You mustn't. My therapist has said this to me.

She said…

I have to keep reminding myself that it was him…

Not me.

Philip told you that he was going to murder Max Peeters?

You then forgot he'd told you that?

And you're only just remembering it now?

- That's what you want me to believe? - No.

No. Please, believe what you want. I'm just…

Telling you what he said.

It's funny, that.

You've no idea that you know something, and then suddenly…

- There it is. - Exactly.

Let me give you another example.

When I got home last night I was trying to take my mind off all this.

I did a load of things.

I rang Mum.

Made food I didn't eat. And watched telly I didn't watch.

'Cause you see, with me, I…

I made this promise to myself that I wouldn't take the work home with me,

because it's ruined things in the past.

Relationships.

That kind of thing.

Last night, I could…

I could feel it all building again. The stress.

I could feel my body telling me,

"You're not sleeping tonight, it's not going to happen."

But then I remembered something that you said in here about your mum,

and her insomnia, and the medicine that she takes,

and I remembered I'd had an ex like that.

He couldn't sleep either.

So I'm in the bathroom and I'm rooting around,

to see if I've still got anything, and I do.

A small bottle of pills that he used to take.

So I take it too.

Do you know what?

I'm in bed and within five minutes,

as if by magic,

I'm gone.

So I'm up this morning, fresh as,

and I'm looking at the pills thinking, "They're so good, they're dangerous."

And I'm reading the ingredients.

Flunitrazepam. That's what it's called.

"That's funny," I thought.

"Flunitrazepam."

Flunitrazepam.

"I know that word, and I don't know why."

Then that thing that's just happened to you, happened to me.

You've no idea that you know,

and then suddenly…

There it is.

Flunitrazepam is in your file.

Flunitrazepam is Rohypnol.

Rohypnol was found in Max Peeters' body.

So my only question is…

Why?

Maybe he was taking it.

Not in this quantity.

Or…

Given it.

By?

By Philip.

Mmm.

Philip was never prescribed it.

Maybe Philip…

Took it from my bag.

But it wasn't in your bag.

Was it?

You pick it up on the way to Bristol to see your mother.

There'd be no reason for you to bring it back with you.

Everyone through there

was convinced it was you last night.

I was, too.

I just kept wondering how.

Even if you could get the belt around their necks,

even if you did know the details,

these are fully grown men, they would have fought.

Now we know, don't we?

Here.

Put enough of that…

In their system, and as if by magic, they are gone.

Want to keep going?

You've no idea what I've been through.

Want to talk about the belt?

Why, after Philip's arrest,

did you buy a men's leather belt from M&S?

And not on the shared account.

On your own.

Bit like what Philip does when he goes to Zara

and he's buying something he's hoping to hide.

Was it because your fingerprints were on the first belt?

The one you used to strangle Max Peeters?

Did Luca take Flunitrazepam too?

Was it really that these men didn't want to know Philip?

Or was it that Philip never wanted to know you?

Stop.

That he didn't know the person that you'd become?

- Stop. - I mean, I get it.

Stop.

That's a life sentence in itself.

I've got an idea.

Let's take five minutes.

Get ourselves together.

Then you can come back

and you can tell me what happened.

You can tell me how you bought Luca's plane ticket.

Tell me where to find Luca's body

for his mum and dad after all these months.

'Cause you know what they say, don't ya?

It's not just you who bears the brunt.

My mother said…

"If you had to kill anyone…"

He never gave us a chance.

He withheld it.

We never got to have anything.

So he knows all about it.

Philip knows that you killed them?

Deep down, he knows.

And he knows it was because of him.

Why do you think in all this time he's never pointed the finger at me?

If you can't have him…

No one can.

Interview suspended at 10:01.

Right.

Excellent. Now it's all about drawing out the definitive statements.

"Yes, I killed him." "Yes, the pills were mine".

Belt and braces, but…

I'm impressed.

Thank you, ma'am.

We should get you doing more of these. Not just supporting, taking the lead.

- Oh, I... - I could put you in with Tony.

I think I'm okay, to be honest.

You and me could partner.

No.

No, thank you.

Well, we don't need to talk about it now. It's…

It's just…

It's a lot of work to take on, that's all,

and if I take it on, I'll take it home.

And I don't want that.

Oh. Is everything okay?

Everything's great, ma'am.

Just trying to keep it that way.

- Let's talk about this tomorrow. - I'm not in tomorrow.

Tomorrow's Tuesday.

I worked Sunday, remember?

Yeah.

I forgot.

Interview resumes at 10:09.

Present in the room, Detective Constable Vanessa Warren…