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TV REPORT: 'Dennis Nilsen
is charged with murdering
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'Kenneth Ockenden, Martyn Duffy,
William Sutherland, Malcolm Barlow,
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00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,520
'John Howlett and Stephen Sinclair.
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'He's also accused of attempting
to murder Douglas Stewart
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'and Paul Knobbs.'
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As each of the
eight charges were read out,
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the defendant was asked,
"How say you, Nilson?
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"Are you guilty or not guilty?"
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'Eight times, in a firm voice,
he replied, "Not guilty." '
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'But is Nilson guilty of murder,
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'or is he guilty
only of manslaughter?'
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00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:50,074
Learn Thai online with BananaThai
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00:00:55,660 --> 00:00:57,000
I don't understand.
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00:00:57,660 --> 00:00:58,520
Well, it's quite simple.
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00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:03,260
Having spoken to my solicitors,
my barrister, um...
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00:01:03,700 --> 00:01:06,520
learned people
from the psychology profession,
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00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:07,520
I'm not sure if I am guilty.
18
00:01:07,980 --> 00:01:10,040
But on-on what grounds?
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In all the months
that we've been talking
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you've not mentioned
a plea of insanity once.
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Not insanity, no.
Diminished responsibility.
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But am I mad? I don't know.
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Madness, as Quixote said,
"Madness is seeing life as it is,
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"and not as it should be."
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You murdered those men, Des.
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And you knew what you were doing.
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00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,560
Did I?
I don't deny taking their lives.
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I must wear the label of a killer,
and maybe I should be hanged for it.
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But I didn't plan them. Never.
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I took them home
with much purer intentions.
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Then I'd wake up
and they'd be sat there, dead.
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Now, no-one feels the weight
of that more than me.
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But the power of responsibility,
at that time, was nil.
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00:01:50,820 --> 00:01:53,820
I-I look in the mirror,
and I see me, yeah?
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Just me. It's friendly, helpful,
responsible me. Just that.
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00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:00,840
If this was true,
then why didn't you go to the police
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00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:02,160
after the first time it happened?
38
00:02:02,260 --> 00:02:04,520
Don't you think
I contemplated that, Brian? Eh?
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00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,760
Don't you think I wanted
to hand myself in, or end it all?
40
00:02:08,140 --> 00:02:09,740
Y'know? But then...
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00:02:10,260 --> 00:02:13,520
survival and shame and the future
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makes you promise yourself
it'll never happen again...
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00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:17,100
till it does.
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00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:22,360
But yeah, I mean...
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00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,860
had it not been for the dog,
I may well have surrendered myself.
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All I know is I don't know,
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and thus, a jury needs to decide.
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The press will be allowed to publish
every word spoken in court.
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Every single detail exposed.
50
00:02:42,060 --> 00:02:43,420
Is that not what you're doing?
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00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:48,280
Well, I'm not exploiting these young
men's tragedies to sell newspapers.
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No, you're just exploiting me.
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I hope you know me better than that.
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I just want to get to the truth.
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Don't you?
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KNOCK AT DOOR
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Peter, you know Mr Green, QC.
Allan, please.
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I hear he's got
the Krays' brief?
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And Ivan Lawrence as QC.
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00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,520
It's a formidable defence team,
to say the least.
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00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:28,680
Please, take a seat.
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00:03:30,780 --> 00:03:32,880
I take it their angle's
diminished responsibility?
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00:03:33,220 --> 00:03:36,080
Didn't wash with Sutcliffe.
The jury won't buy it.
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00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,720
Sutcliffe didn't watch TV
with the bodies.
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00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:40,200
Nilsen's not insane.
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00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:41,720
They don't have to prove that.
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00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:43,420
All they have to do
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00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,880
is show that he was suffering
some abnormality of mind
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00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,260
and therefore not fully
responsible for what he was doing.
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00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,280
We, on the other hand,
have to prove that these crimes
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00:03:51,300 --> 00:03:53,620
were carefully planned
and premeditated.
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00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:55,120
Surely his confessions do that.
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00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,520
I'm afraid the confessions
only take us so far.
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00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:00,980
What do you mean?
75
00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,060
He gave you a lot of answers
which prove what he did,
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00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,700
but not what mind
he was in when he did it.
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00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:07,660
He gave you exactly
what he wanted to.
78
00:04:07,900 --> 00:04:10,880
You hardly asked him
any probing questions
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about what was on his mind.
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00:04:12,300 --> 00:04:14,940
Hold on. We didn't want him
to suddenly stop talking.
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00:04:15,020 --> 00:04:17,120
We needed to identify 15 people.
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00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,040
I understand that, but the effect
was he gave you a lot of details
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00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:22,900
that aren't going
to help us convict him.
84
00:04:24,140 --> 00:04:26,360
I'm sorry,
are you saying he planned this?
85
00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,360
We'll never know. But if all
we have are the confessions,
86
00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:31,560
then that's not going to be enough.
87
00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,040
We need more. Much more.
88
00:04:47,580 --> 00:04:49,560
We should have pushed for motive.
89
00:04:50,460 --> 00:04:52,100
Don't listen to Green.
90
00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,520
Everybody always thinks they're
a better copper than a copper.
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00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:57,240
If he'd have stopped talking
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00:04:57,300 --> 00:04:59,420
there's no way we'd have
found the people we did.
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00:05:02,820 --> 00:05:05,520
Listen, they're just looking
for someone to blame
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00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,180
if this all goes pear-shaped.
95
00:05:08,020 --> 00:05:10,520
But we're gonna make
damned sure that doesn't happen.
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00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:13,520
Yeah.
97
00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:17,520
See you tomorrow.
98
00:05:32,940 --> 00:05:34,120
Thanks for meeting me.
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00:05:34,820 --> 00:05:36,240
Please, take a seat.
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00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:40,720
I almost didn't come.
101
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But you did.
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00:05:43,900 --> 00:05:45,180
Cos you know this is wrong.
103
00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,880
I take it he's written to you over
the past few months? Oh, he has.
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00:05:55,140 --> 00:05:55,900
How much?
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00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:59,640
52 exercise books' worth.
106
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:01,740
We're gonna need
to take a look at them.
107
00:06:01,940 --> 00:06:04,560
That could be useful
to prove premeditation. Mr Jay...
108
00:06:04,620 --> 00:06:07,020
All that matters is that
we find as much evidence as we can
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00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:08,520
that Nilsen was in his right mind.
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What if he's insane?
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00:06:10,420 --> 00:06:11,520
You think he's insane?
112
00:06:11,700 --> 00:06:13,280
Well, it's not for me to decide.
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00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,520
He's not mad.
He knew what he was doing was wrong.
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00:06:16,700 --> 00:06:18,420
Well, I don't deny that.
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But at the same time,
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he was able to take
the head of someone he'd known,
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the severed head,
into a cooking pot on the stove,
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00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,000
and let it simmer overnight.
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00:06:30,540 --> 00:06:35,340
And then the next morning he was
able to pour himself a cup of coffee
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00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,940
and butter a slice of toast,
whilst turning up the heat
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00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:40,520
to make sure that the head
was boiling properly.
122
00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,520
Now that is completely mad.
123
00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,240
He's really done a number
on you, hasn't he?
124
00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,400
You mistake me, Mr Jay.
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00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,520
He's not my friend.
I know who he is.
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00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:58,360
Do you?
127
00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:01,520
Right, well,
if there's nothing else...
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00:07:01,700 --> 00:07:05,820
Listen, if he can convince a jury
that he was out of his mind somehow,
129
00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:07,520
then he only gets manslaughter.
130
00:07:07,620 --> 00:07:10,380
He goes to a hospital and then
in 15 years he's deemed cured,
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00:07:10,460 --> 00:07:12,000
and he's back out on the streets.
132
00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:15,480
Is that justice for the victims
and their families?
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00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:19,040
If that happens...
134
00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:22,520
..can you live with yourself?
135
00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:25,400
Because I know I can't.
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00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:38,520
I'll drop the exercise books off
at the station.
137
00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:49,520
'But we have a murder weapon.'
138
00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:51,700
A tie attached to a knotted rope.
139
00:07:52,340 --> 00:07:53,820
Seems pretty pre-emptive to me.
140
00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:55,480
OK, good. What else?
141
00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:57,000
We've got Duffey's knives.
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00:07:57,060 --> 00:07:58,900
Nilsen let them rust
in his back garden
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00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:00,520
so they could never
be traced back to Martyn.
144
00:08:00,740 --> 00:08:03,860
That shows knowledge of wrongdoing,
therefore criminally sane.
145
00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:05,160
That's a stretch.
146
00:08:06,620 --> 00:08:08,400
What about these books from Masters?
147
00:08:08,460 --> 00:08:09,720
Surely there's got to be something
in here.
148
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,860
The tragedy of the monochrome man?
149
00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:13,640
I mean,
most of it's rambling nonsense.
150
00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:15,080
They help the defence if anything.
151
00:08:16,380 --> 00:08:17,620
What about Douglas Stewart?
152
00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,160
The press'll have a field day
with what happened to Stewart.
153
00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,160
Oh! Police embarrassment is hardly
relevant now. We have to use him.
154
00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:24,940
What else?
155
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:27,560
What about the Soho Project?
156
00:08:28,380 --> 00:08:29,520
What about it?
157
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:30,880
A woman called.
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Thinks someone in her therapy group
could be a possible victim...
159
00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,520
but I thought we weren't
looking for them any more.
160
00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:41,540
OK, Steve and I will follow that up.
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00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:43,740
Is that our lot?
162
00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,520
Paul Knobbs,
in his statement, says...
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VOICES FADE
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Sorry to have called.
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00:08:59,900 --> 00:09:02,520
It's just he's been having
this recurring dream,
166
00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,000
but actually,
I think he's been attacked. OK.
167
00:09:06,680 --> 00:09:08,320
I hope I'm not wasting your time.
168
00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:10,620
Is it all right
if we have a word with him?
169
00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:13,940
Go easy on him, OK?
170
00:09:15,260 --> 00:09:17,520
Of course. What's his name?
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00:09:17,980 --> 00:09:18,840
Carl.
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00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:21,520
All right.
173
00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:26,160
'I'm in a dark room.'
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00:09:26,860 --> 00:09:28,000
I don't know where, and...
175
00:09:29,460 --> 00:09:32,420
there's music but it's calm.
176
00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,060
And then... this man appears.
177
00:09:37,780 --> 00:09:40,280
And I can't see his face,
178
00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:42,740
but he's very close to me.
179
00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:49,320
Um... But I'm not afraid,
because... I'm warm.
180
00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,040
I'm wrapped up
in some kind of sleeping bag.
181
00:09:56,100 --> 00:10:00,740
And then, all of a sudden,
I feel something around my neck...
182
00:10:02,220 --> 00:10:05,260
um...digging into my throat,
and-and choking me.
183
00:10:05,620 --> 00:10:09,260
And I can hear him saying,
"Just stay still".
184
00:10:09,820 --> 00:10:12,080
And then everything goes dark.
185
00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:18,040
But then, after a while,
I feel... something on my face,
186
00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,520
like... sort of like
a dog licking me or something.
187
00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:24,560
Can you remember what breed?
188
00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,660
Um... No.
189
00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:34,740
Carl?
190
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:38,520
Have you seen this man?
191
00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,180
Yeah, yeah, on the news.
His name is Dennis Nilsen.
192
00:10:45,780 --> 00:10:48,780
He killed 15 young men
and attempted to kill seven others.
193
00:10:50,500 --> 00:10:52,220
All of these men were strangled.
194
00:10:52,780 --> 00:10:54,960
Mostly with a tie
or a headphone cord.
195
00:10:56,260 --> 00:10:58,520
But one, he tried to kill
with a sleeping bag.
196
00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:01,520
No...
197
00:11:03,940 --> 00:11:08,280
..um... cos the man in my dream
keeps telling me
198
00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:10,680
not to get caught up in the zip.
199
00:11:17,060 --> 00:11:19,620
He also said he
attempted to drown him
200
00:11:20,420 --> 00:11:22,400
before resuscitating him.
201
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:29,520
I've never told
anyone about the water.
202
00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:32,300
Do you remember the water?
203
00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:33,520
Yeah.
204
00:11:34,060 --> 00:11:35,360
Um...
205
00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:37,520
It was cold water,
206
00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,400
and I was being held down.
207
00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,520
Where? In a bath or a sink?
208
00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,520
I don't understand. Are you...
209
00:11:48,780 --> 00:11:51,780
Are you telling me that
this actually happened? Yes.
210
00:11:53,580 --> 00:11:56,120
I think you're one
of Nilsen's attempted victims.
211
00:11:56,860 --> 00:11:58,340
Because everything
that you are telling us
212
00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,140
aligns to what he told us.
213
00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,260
Can you remember where you met him
or anything about where he lived?
214
00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,520
Well, no... You said he warned you
about the sleeping bag.
215
00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:10,160
What did he say exactly?
I don't know.
216
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:11,280
When he warned you about the zip,
217
00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,400
it shows he was planning it
way before he did it
218
00:12:13,460 --> 00:12:15,380
so I need you to be clear. Come on.
219
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:17,580
Just try to remember.
I don't wanna do this any more.
220
00:12:17,620 --> 00:12:19,680
Look, you have to.
I know this is tough,
221
00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,120
but we need all the details.
Detective.
222
00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,620
Just think. Detective,
he's told you he's had enough.
223
00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,520
I'm aware of that,
but I'm-I'm just trying... Peter.
224
00:12:31,980 --> 00:12:33,080
'We can't use him.'
225
00:12:33,300 --> 00:12:35,040
He won't survive cross-examination.
226
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,740
You saw him in there.
They'll destroy him.
227
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:41,040
I'll come back in a couple of days,
228
00:12:41,060 --> 00:12:42,920
see if I can get
a statement from him
229
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:44,380
and we can read that out in court,
230
00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:46,040
if we need to.
231
00:12:46,500 --> 00:12:47,120
Peter...
232
00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:48,240
we have enough.
233
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:50,860
He led us to the bodies,
for fuck's sake.
234
00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,760
For the first day of this,
the trial of Dennis Nilsen,
235
00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,680
the unassuming civil servant
who's charged with crimes
236
00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,520
that have shocked
and sickened the nation.
237
00:13:08,700 --> 00:13:12,520
Nilsen is charged with six murders
and two attempted murders.
238
00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,080
Details of a recently identified
seventh victim, Graham Allen,
239
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,320
a heroin addict and petty criminal,
240
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,140
will not be featured
on the indictment.
241
00:13:21,380 --> 00:13:23,920
CROWD SHOUTING
Masters!
242
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,720
What's it like being friends
with a serial killer?
243
00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:30,300
What's it like rubbing shoulders
with a murderer, Masters?
244
00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:33,360
SHOUTING OVER EACH OTHER
245
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,040
What's it like being friends
with a serial killer?
246
00:13:56,740 --> 00:13:58,000
Steve.
247
00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,940
You all right? Good.
248
00:14:01,860 --> 00:14:04,520
Sleep OK?
No. I never do.
249
00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,620
Oh, here he is.
Brian Masters -
250
00:14:18,740 --> 00:14:20,920
biographer to the
murderer of the century.
251
00:14:20,980 --> 00:14:22,520
Did you see the press outside?
252
00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:24,880
Jesus,
they'll have headlines for weeks.
253
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:26,900
Revelling in the case, like carrion.
254
00:14:26,940 --> 00:14:29,220
One of the papers today
had the headline
255
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,520
"House Of Horrors - The Trial."
256
00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:32,820
The only "house of horrors"
I've ever seen
257
00:14:32,860 --> 00:14:34,520
is Number Ten Downing Street.
258
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,520
They mention you an' all.
Yes, I saw.
259
00:14:37,620 --> 00:14:41,300
Yeah? How do you feel, being talked
about in a national newspaper?
260
00:14:42,540 --> 00:14:43,860
You wanted to see me?
261
00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:46,980
Aye. They've brought me
my suit, but no tie.
262
00:14:47,620 --> 00:14:49,720
I was wondering if I could borrow yours.
263
00:14:52,020 --> 00:14:52,940
Right.
264
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,700
I know it's an ask,
but an open-necked shirt
265
00:14:55,780 --> 00:14:58,420
isn't the kind of impression
I want to give out
266
00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,020
on the first day of the trial.
267
00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:05,520
Right. I'll leave it with the guard.
268
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:07,160
My saviour.
269
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:09,520
I started out with 15 ties,
270
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,360
but now the police
have them all in evidence.
271
00:15:14,780 --> 00:15:17,020
You, the members of the jury,
will be asked
272
00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,660
to ascertain this man's state
of mind at the time of the killings
273
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:22,860
and to decide, as a result,
274
00:15:23,340 --> 00:15:27,300
if he is guilty of the murder
of six innocent young men,
275
00:15:27,780 --> 00:15:30,320
or merely of their manslaughter.
276
00:15:30,860 --> 00:15:34,960
That Mr Nilsen killed these men
is not contested by the defence.
277
00:15:35,220 --> 00:15:36,580
They will argue, however,
278
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,780
that he was out of his mind
when he committed his crimes,
279
00:15:41,140 --> 00:15:43,860
and that he cannot
be held truly accountable.
280
00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,160
But I intend to prove that Mr Nilsen
not only knew what he was doing,
281
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:53,040
but that these crimes were
premeditated and carefully planned.
282
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,520
He lured 15 innocent young men
283
00:15:57,380 --> 00:15:58,720
back to his home,
284
00:15:58,980 --> 00:16:01,860
before cruelly murdering them.
285
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,860
Mr Nilsen is no madman.
286
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,460
He is intelligent and rational,
287
00:16:07,660 --> 00:16:10,520
possessing the skills
to conceal his crimes,
288
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:12,860
and manipulate those around him.
289
00:16:13,740 --> 00:16:19,380
He is, in short, an experienced
and calculating killer.
290
00:16:20,620 --> 00:16:23,960
I have spent a total of 14 hours
with Dennis Nilsen,
291
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,380
on 16 separate occasions
since his arrest.
292
00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,400
You are a forensic psychiatrist,
Dr Hardy? Correct.
293
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,120
Could you share with the court
the clinical evaluation
294
00:16:33,180 --> 00:16:35,300
you made of the defendant
during these many meetings?
295
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,060
Did you find, for example,
any evidence of mental abnormality?
296
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,280
Quite the reverse.
I formed the impression very quickly
297
00:16:41,340 --> 00:16:42,740
that he was
a highly intelligent man.
298
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,880
In my view, Nilsen possesses
an extremely rational mind.
299
00:16:46,980 --> 00:16:49,460
He is capable of feeling very deeply
300
00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:53,260
and concealing these feelings
in order to preserve appearances.
301
00:16:53,620 --> 00:16:55,920
Thank you. No further questions,
my Lord.
302
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,540
Dennis Nilsen killed
perhaps 15 young men,
303
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,520
for no apparent reason.
304
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,200
He kept their bodies,
bathed and dressed them,
305
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,260
watched television programmes
with them,
306
00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,240
conversed with them
about those programmes.
307
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,160
You say you find no evidence
of mental disturbance.
308
00:17:17,060 --> 00:17:20,520
Of course strangling people
is not normal behaviour.
309
00:17:20,860 --> 00:17:23,760
While Nilsen was on remand,
310
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:28,260
he made a series of protests
and complaints
311
00:17:28,300 --> 00:17:31,860
about his treatment
in Her Majesty's Prison Herne Hill.
312
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,300
Would you not agree that this shows
markedly paranoid tendencies?
313
00:17:37,020 --> 00:17:39,160
Perhaps. In some cases.
314
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,920
And in this case, in fact,
his behaviour became so extreme,
315
00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:48,500
so erratic, that he was recently
put down as a suicide risk.
316
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:50,640
Could you tell us, Dr Hardy,
317
00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:53,360
who the psychiatrist was
who recommended this step?
318
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:56,400
I did.
319
00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:58,520
So, would you not agree
320
00:17:58,620 --> 00:18:01,400
that someone at risk of suicide
is, by definition,
321
00:18:01,460 --> 00:18:03,940
suffering a mental disorder?
322
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:09,520
I suppose, in strict terms,
that is true.
323
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,160
Thank you.
No further questions, my Lord.
324
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:35,140
Miss Mead?
325
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,180
They're using
what happened to Graham,
326
00:18:38,980 --> 00:18:40,500
making it all public,
327
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:42,800
but he doesn't get justice?
328
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:45,480
I know.
329
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,620
Look, there are certain details
about his case that can...
330
00:18:49,660 --> 00:18:50,920
You didn't give a shit about him
331
00:18:51,140 --> 00:18:53,220
when you thought
he was just a junkie who OD'd
332
00:18:53,380 --> 00:18:55,000
in a squat or a bedsit somewhere.
333
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,140
But now, you're gonna
bring up every little detail.
334
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:03,520
I'm sorry.
335
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:07,540
No, you're not.
336
00:19:09,340 --> 00:19:12,520
Do you have any fucking idea
what you've put me through?
337
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:15,860
And he won't even get justice?
338
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,080
All you lot care about
339
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,160
is you're the people
that caught Dennis Nilsen.
340
00:19:28,780 --> 00:19:31,220
Peter. We're back in.
341
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:45,780
'So, Mr Stewart,'
342
00:19:45,860 --> 00:19:47,620
after meeting him
in the Golden Lion,
343
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,860
Mr Nilsen suggested that you
both go back to his residence
344
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,020
to continue drinking?
That's right.
345
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,760
195 Melrose Avenue.
I remember it very clearly.
346
00:19:56,900 --> 00:19:59,820
And what happened next?
We had a couple more pints.
347
00:20:00,060 --> 00:20:02,880
He offered me vodka
but I said, "It's not my drink".
348
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,820
Then he asked me
to go to bed with him.
349
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:09,100
I said that wasn't my thing either.
350
00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:11,380
So I fell asleep on the sofa.
351
00:20:11,980 --> 00:20:15,280
I woke up,
must have been a few hours later,
352
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,200
and my ankles were tied together
with a tie.
353
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,520
Nilsen was kneeling on my chest,
trying to strangle me.
354
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:23,520
But I fought him off.
355
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,520
I wasn't going down
without a fight.
356
00:20:25,900 --> 00:20:27,440
How did he respond to that?
357
00:20:27,740 --> 00:20:30,820
He started shouting,
"Take my money, take my money!"
358
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:32,520
Really loud, like.
359
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,440
But you weren't stealing from him?
360
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,680
Seemed like he was trying
to make the neighbours think
361
00:20:44,740 --> 00:20:46,200
he was being attacked himself.
362
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,860
He was trying to create an alibi.
363
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,520
Hardly the act
of a man out of his mind.
364
00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:54,780
Thank you, Mr Stewart.
No further questions, my Lord.
365
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,300
In your police statement,
Mr Stewart,
366
00:20:58,540 --> 00:21:02,260
you said you stayed
for another drink with Nilsen.
367
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,140
Another drink, after he
allegedly tried to kill you?
368
00:21:06,860 --> 00:21:09,520
Well, I thought that was
the best way to calm him down.
369
00:21:09,780 --> 00:21:10,520
I see.
370
00:21:10,860 --> 00:21:11,980
You mentioned earlier
371
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,880
that you remembered seeing
the address as 195 Melrose Avenue.
372
00:21:16,260 --> 00:21:18,060
How did you remember
the address so clearly?
373
00:21:18,740 --> 00:21:20,560
I saw the number on the door.
374
00:21:20,940 --> 00:21:24,200
You also told us that
when you met him in the pub
375
00:21:24,260 --> 00:21:27,240
the defendant introduced himself
to you as Dennis.
376
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,220
Yeah.
And that when you got to his house
377
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,520
to continue your drinking session
together, he offered you vodka.
378
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:34,040
That's right.
379
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,320
Unfortunately, none of these
things are true, are they?
380
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:39,860
The defendant's
first name may be Dennis
381
00:21:39,940 --> 00:21:42,520
but he always calls himself Des.
382
00:21:42,980 --> 00:21:45,880
He always drinks rum, not vodka,
383
00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:49,520
and there is no number plate
on the house at Melrose Avenue.
384
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:50,880
There never has been.
385
00:21:51,340 --> 00:21:53,420
I dunno, I thought there was.
386
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,820
Mm, but you seemed
so sure of the details before.
387
00:21:57,020 --> 00:21:58,160
And why might that be?
388
00:21:58,340 --> 00:22:02,520
Why might someone go to the trouble
of furnishing their testimony
389
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,520
with a great deal of specific detail
390
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,340
that seems to be
pulled from thin air?
391
00:22:08,660 --> 00:22:11,520
I put it to you, Mr Stewart,
that your testimony to this court
392
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,520
is nothing more than a pack of lies,
393
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,520
dreamt up to satisfy
a tabloid newspaper.
394
00:22:18,460 --> 00:22:20,580
Well, Mr Stewart?
395
00:22:21,620 --> 00:22:23,640
Have you sold your story?
396
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,520
Er... Y... Yes.
397
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,520
THEY SIGH
No further questions, my Lord.
398
00:22:34,220 --> 00:22:35,520
'How dare he!'
399
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,180
Standing up there in that ridiculous
suit, spouting those lies.
400
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,720
So you're saying that
Douglas Stewart is lying?
401
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:43,540
That you didn't try and kill him?
402
00:22:44,020 --> 00:22:46,720
Yes, I did.
But not as he described it.
403
00:22:46,780 --> 00:22:48,940
This is about absolute truth, Brian.
404
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,840
It has to be,
otherwise we don't get any answers.
405
00:22:52,740 --> 00:22:54,520
You cannot possibly believe
406
00:22:54,820 --> 00:22:57,040
that what you put him through
out there was justified.
407
00:22:57,260 --> 00:22:59,520
What are you getting
so agitated about?
408
00:22:59,700 --> 00:23:02,280
I'm giving you a wonderful
final act for your book.
409
00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:05,040
Like you said about the book, Brian,
410
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,760
it's not up to us
to make subjective decisions.
411
00:23:07,820 --> 00:23:09,520
We have to remain objective
in all of this.
412
00:23:09,580 --> 00:23:12,040
Thus, it is up to
the jury to decide
413
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:13,820
whether I'm just bad...
414
00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:15,520
or outrageously bad.
415
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,520
See you back in chambers. Thank you.
416
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:28,680
Did you know he'd sold
his story to the press?
417
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:29,560
Course I didn't!
418
00:23:29,700 --> 00:23:32,300
We're lucky the judge didn't strike
his testimony from the record.
419
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,520
It can't have harmed us that much,
right?
420
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,860
Stewart's credibility is gone,
his testimony is now useless.
421
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:38,780
We're in a lot of trouble.
422
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:40,080
Surely we still have enough?
423
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,780
I mean, we have the tie with the
knotted rope, and Duffey's knives.
424
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:44,740
All those show
premeditation to murder.
425
00:23:44,780 --> 00:23:46,260
Peter, physical evidence
is all very good and well,
426
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:47,680
but it's also circumstantial.
427
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,320
We had an eye witness, a survivor,
428
00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:51,740
and without that,
we're significantly weaker.
429
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:53,440
Sorry.
430
00:24:09,180 --> 00:24:10,340
Hello, Carl.
431
00:24:10,980 --> 00:24:11,940
Can I come in?
432
00:24:22,780 --> 00:24:23,880
How have you been?
433
00:24:25,860 --> 00:24:27,520
Things keep coming back to me.
434
00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:30,520
What kind of things?
435
00:24:34,780 --> 00:24:36,520
He said he liked my shoes.
436
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:42,720
Thank you.
437
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,560
The doctor said
it was all nightmares, caused...
438
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:56,740
I'd had a bit of a hard time
with an ex of mine.
439
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,520
They even put me on tablets
to block everything out.
440
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,540
Listen, Carl, um...
441
00:25:13,540 --> 00:25:15,520
..the trial
isn't going how we'd hoped.
442
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,040
We think your testimony
could be crucial.
443
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:19,940
But I've already given my statement.
444
00:25:20,820 --> 00:25:22,300
The man said that would be enough.
445
00:25:22,420 --> 00:25:25,520
I know, but we need you
to give it in court.
446
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:27,520
What, with him there?
447
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,520
You wouldn't have to be close
to him... No, I can't.
448
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,220
Carl...
He killed me, Mr Jay.
449
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,960
And then he...
brought me back to life.
450
00:25:38,860 --> 00:25:41,020
I can't imagine
what you've been through, Carl.
451
00:25:42,220 --> 00:25:43,760
I really can't.
452
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:46,580
But please believe me,
453
00:25:46,660 --> 00:25:49,520
if he gets a lesser sentence,
you'll find no peace.
454
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:51,520
I'm sorry. I can't...
455
00:25:54,340 --> 00:25:57,320
..be in the same room as him.
456
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,120
I can't go back there.
457
00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:04,520
Then they'll subpoena you anyway.
458
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,120
You'll be forced to testify.
459
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,520
So I don't have a choice?
460
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:23,880
DOOR OPENS
461
00:26:30,460 --> 00:26:31,720
DOOR SLAMS SHUT
462
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,920
I swear by Almighty God
that the evidence I shall give
463
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,880
shall be the truth, the whole truth
and nothing by the truth.
464
00:26:40,620 --> 00:26:42,520
Could you recount, Mr Stottor,
465
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,200
the events of that night
in April 1982,
466
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:46,520
when you met the defendant?
467
00:26:52,660 --> 00:26:56,220
Where, for example,
did you meet Mr Nilsen?
468
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:58,520
In The Black Cap, Camden.
469
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,160
I was depressed.
470
00:27:00,860 --> 00:27:03,260
I'd just broken up with someone.
471
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,080
Speak up, please, Mr Stottor.
472
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:11,520
He was nice to me.
473
00:27:12,500 --> 00:27:14,240
In what sense was he nice?
474
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,560
He bought me drinks.
475
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,720
Er... He asked me about my family.
476
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,520
He asked if you had family?
477
00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:28,520
Yes, and then he invited me
back to his flat for a drink.
478
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,120
Um... We just drank a lot
and then he said
479
00:27:33,220 --> 00:27:35,520
I could go to sleep on his bed.
480
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,400
And then he warned me
not to get caught
481
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,520
in the zip of the sleeping bag.
482
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,040
Why do you think that was?
483
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,360
Was it perhaps because
he was planning an alibi
484
00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:47,240
in case you managed to escape?
Objection, my Lord. Leading.
485
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:48,740
Sustained.
486
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:50,720
Tell us what happened next.
487
00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:59,820
I woke up and I couldn't breathe.
488
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,680
He was behind me and...
489
00:28:03,900 --> 00:28:06,560
I could feel
something digging into my neck.
490
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,880
The pressure got worse...
491
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,520
and the pain was unbearable.
492
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:14,780
I couldn't see,
493
00:28:15,220 --> 00:28:18,160
or speak, or swallow.
494
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,580
And I could hear him saying,
"Keep still".
495
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,880
The next thing I knew,
I was in water.
496
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,660
In a bath. Being pushed down.
Again and again.
497
00:28:29,860 --> 00:28:33,840
And I didn't know where I was
or what was happening.
498
00:28:33,900 --> 00:28:37,320
And I swallowed water.
499
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,580
I couldn't resist any more
and I realised...
500
00:28:42,820 --> 00:28:44,520
that I was dying.
501
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,060
Thank you, Mr Stottor.
502
00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:49,840
No further questions, my Lord.
503
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,820
You have an alter-ego,
Mr Stottor, do you not?
504
00:28:54,660 --> 00:28:56,140
Khara Le Fox.
505
00:28:56,820 --> 00:28:58,520
A drag act.
506
00:28:58,620 --> 00:29:00,200
You're a female impersonator.
507
00:29:00,740 --> 00:29:02,080
I used to be, yes.
508
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,040
You've already been asked,
Mr Stottor,
509
00:29:05,140 --> 00:29:06,820
if you could speak up
510
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,020
for the benefit of the court?
511
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:10,780
LOUDER: Yes.
512
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:12,820
But...
513
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,000
since the attack,
I'm not able to sing any more.
514
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,520
And you had several relationships
with men,
515
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,520
including one which became abusive.
516
00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:28,340
Your night with Nilsen
was, therefore,
517
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,700
not your first violent
homosexual encounter...
518
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,280
My Lord, I must object
to this line of questioning.
519
00:29:34,340 --> 00:29:36,520
A history of deviant encounters
520
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,020
raises the possibility
of a sex game gone wrong, my Lord.
521
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,000
Sustained. Move on, Mr Lawrence.
522
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,120
Now, could you tell us, Mr Stottor,
523
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,520
where you woke up
after you had been in the bath?
524
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:51,520
On the bed.
525
00:29:51,820 --> 00:29:55,220
On the bed.
And was the room warm or cold?
526
00:29:56,260 --> 00:29:57,060
Warm.
527
00:29:57,260 --> 00:29:59,340
Nilsen had heated the room,
had he not?
528
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,520
He had put on all the bars
on the electric fire.
529
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,520
Yes, I suppose so.
530
00:30:07,060 --> 00:30:10,040
And how long after you woke up
did you leave the flat?
531
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:15,320
Well, I kept falling asleep,
so maybe one or two days.
532
00:30:15,420 --> 00:30:20,160
One or two days.
Did Nilsen keep you under duress?
533
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:25,520
No, but I was very confused...
534
00:30:25,860 --> 00:30:28,020
and also in a lot of pain.
535
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:33,520
Did he, in fact, walk you to the
Tube station when you wanted to go?
536
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:35,080
Yes.
537
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,360
This supposedly cold
and calculating killer,
538
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,620
with every opportunity
to finish the job,
539
00:30:41,820 --> 00:30:45,520
instead let you sleep
in a warm bed for days,
540
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,880
before seeing you home safely.
541
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,300
In fact,
aside from the incident itself,
542
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:56,080
did he not show you more
care and kindness that evening
543
00:30:56,140 --> 00:30:59,940
than anyone else in your life
had done for a very long time?
544
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:03,520
Yes.
545
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,520
That's what I can't understand.
546
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,880
Is he my murderer or my saviour?
547
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,240
How peculiar that is.
548
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:20,560
No further questions, my Lord.
549
00:31:22,540 --> 00:31:24,520
You may step down, Mr Stottor.
550
00:31:30,220 --> 00:31:31,520
You did really well in there.
551
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:33,140
Listen, Carl...
552
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:34,780
I want to go home now.
553
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,520
CROWD CALLS OUT
554
00:31:37,780 --> 00:31:40,240
MAN SHOUTS: He should
have killed you, you queer!
555
00:31:54,980 --> 00:31:58,060
VOICES FADE
556
00:32:03,420 --> 00:32:04,520
Mr Jay...
557
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,080
I feel I owe you an apology.
558
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:18,540
You were right.
559
00:32:19,780 --> 00:32:21,140
He's not insane.
560
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,960
He knew exactly what he was doing.
561
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:30,100
As much then as he does now.
562
00:32:50,180 --> 00:32:53,220
PHOTOGRAPHERS SHOUT
563
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:25,800
Detective, are you confident?
564
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,920
Do you think you'll get
justice for the victims, Detective?
565
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,840
'In the following days
you interviewed him at length.
566
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:31,520
'Is that correct?'
567
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,240
Yes, we interviewed him
for a total of 31 hours.
568
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:36,720
And in those 31 hours,
569
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,640
did Mr Nilsen ever mention
visions or voices in his head
570
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,840
telling him to commit his crimes?
No.
571
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,160
Did he ever show any signs at all
572
00:33:44,220 --> 00:33:46,240
of being out of his mind,
so to speak,
573
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,880
or mentally unwell in any way?
No. Quite the opposite, in fact.
574
00:33:50,100 --> 00:33:52,820
He seemed... calm.
575
00:33:53,460 --> 00:33:55,720
Collected. In control.
576
00:33:55,940 --> 00:33:58,060
Hardly a madman.
No.
577
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,040
Detective Chief Inspector Jay,
578
00:34:00,180 --> 00:34:01,360
could you please tell the court,
579
00:34:01,380 --> 00:34:03,400
for how long
have you been a police officer?
580
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,240
Almost 23 years.
581
00:34:05,540 --> 00:34:07,520
And based on those
years of experience,
582
00:34:07,660 --> 00:34:11,140
what is your professional
opinion of Dennis Nilsen?
583
00:34:13,700 --> 00:34:16,200
I've seen criminals
in all shapes and sizes.
584
00:34:17,860 --> 00:34:21,360
When they're on remand, they ask to
be visited by all sorts of people,
585
00:34:21,980 --> 00:34:24,540
priests, rabbis, imams.
586
00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:27,780
I even had a fella
who asked for a shaman.
587
00:34:29,260 --> 00:34:32,560
Because most of them
are just wanting forgiveness.
588
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:36,400
Mr Nilsen's only visitor
589
00:34:36,460 --> 00:34:38,860
in the eight months
whilst he was on remand
590
00:34:39,260 --> 00:34:40,520
was a biographer.
591
00:34:42,220 --> 00:34:45,600
In my opinion,
he's a remorseless coward
592
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,520
who killed innocent
and vulnerable men as they slept.
593
00:34:50,580 --> 00:34:52,000
Thank you,
Detective Chief Inspector.
594
00:34:52,020 --> 00:34:53,420
No further questions, my Lord.
595
00:34:54,300 --> 00:34:56,540
Detective Chief Inspector,
596
00:34:56,540 --> 00:35:00,520
you say you interviewed Nilsen
for 31 hours, yes?
597
00:35:00,740 --> 00:35:01,520
That's right.
598
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,520
In all that time
of him talking almost incessantly,
599
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:10,180
did he ever mention
planning the murders at all?
600
00:35:11,580 --> 00:35:12,520
No.
601
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,040
No further questions, my Lord.
602
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,200
You may step down, Officer.
Thank you.
603
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,520
We have an old Latin phrase
in the law,
604
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,240
"Res ipsa loquitur",
605
00:35:24,380 --> 00:35:26,520
"The act speaks for itself."
606
00:35:26,700 --> 00:35:29,000
What sort of man kills people,
607
00:35:29,100 --> 00:35:32,080
lives with their bodies
rotting under the floorboards,
608
00:35:32,100 --> 00:35:35,760
and flushes pieces of them
down the lavatory?
609
00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:40,100
Do these seem to you the actions
of a man in his right mind?
610
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,280
If you think,
as we invite you to think,
611
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,520
and as the evidence surely shows,
612
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,320
that these crimes
were not planned or premeditated,
613
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,120
but were due to Nilsen's
seriously abnormal personality
614
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:54,520
and way of thinking,
615
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,520
then you will find him
not guilty of murder,
616
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,040
but guilty of manslaughter
by way of diminished responsibility.
617
00:36:02,300 --> 00:36:05,880
That is the verdict
which we invite you to return.
618
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:09,720
What's taking them so long?
619
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,520
Same again? Wee ones?
620
00:36:19,860 --> 00:36:21,460
DOOR OPENS
621
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:38,880
Madam Foreman of the jury.
622
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,340
Have you reached verdicts
on which you are all agreed?
623
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:45,880
No, we have not.
624
00:36:46,100 --> 00:36:47,640
THEY SIGH
625
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,720
Might you reach a verdict if the
court sits until early evening?
626
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,180
I don't believe so, your Honour.
627
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,520
Very well.
You will retire overnight.
628
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,680
The court will reconvene
in the morning
629
00:36:58,740 --> 00:37:01,180
where I will accept
a majority verdict.
630
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,000
TV REPORT: 'More time's
now being spent
631
00:37:10,060 --> 00:37:12,520
'on what's possibly wrong
with Dennis Nilsen
632
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,320
'than what he's actually done.
633
00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:18,840
'A man who has described himself
as the "murderer of the century".
634
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,880
'A defence psychiatrist said Nilsen
acted as if HE were the judge,
635
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,520
'judging this case
of an infamous crime.
636
00:37:25,720 --> 00:37:26,520
'He shows off.
637
00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:30,080
'He really believes he is the most
important person of the century.
638
00:37:30,300 --> 00:37:33,880
'The defence expert found another
way of describing Nilsen's mind.
639
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,300
' "His personality
was like his house.
640
00:37:36,380 --> 00:37:38,520
' "It looked perfectly
all right from the outside,
641
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,360
' "but perhaps there was something
of a funny smell about it,
642
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,360
' "and when you looked
under the floorboards,
643
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,340
' "you would find horrors." '
644
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,280
The jury is returning.
645
00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:17,520
Would the foreman
of the jury please stand?
646
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:21,520
Madam Foreman,
647
00:38:21,980 --> 00:38:24,520
do you have a majority
on your verdicts?
648
00:38:25,220 --> 00:38:26,020
We do.
649
00:38:26,900 --> 00:38:29,520
On the charge of the murder
of Stephen Sinclair,
650
00:38:30,020 --> 00:38:31,520
how do you find the defendant?
651
00:38:33,300 --> 00:38:34,060
Guilty.
652
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,480
On the charge of the murder
of Kenneth Ockenden,
653
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:40,520
how do you find the defendant?
654
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:41,580
Guilty.
655
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,800
On the charge of the murder
of John Howlett,
656
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,360
how do you find the defendant?
657
00:38:47,660 --> 00:38:48,420
Guilty.
658
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,160
On the charge of the murder
of Martyn Duffey,
659
00:38:51,340 --> 00:38:52,840
how do you find the defendant?
660
00:38:53,100 --> 00:38:53,980
Guilty.
661
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,200
On the charge of the murder
of Billy Sutherland,
662
00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,160
how do you find the defendant?
663
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:00,520
Guilty.
664
00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:03,060
On the charge of the murder
of Malcolm Barlow,
665
00:39:03,140 --> 00:39:04,520
how do you find the defendant?
666
00:39:04,820 --> 00:39:05,600
Guilty.
667
00:39:06,180 --> 00:39:09,520
On the charge of the
attempted murder of Douglas Stewart,
668
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,240
how do you find the defendant?
669
00:39:11,340 --> 00:39:12,180
Guilty.
670
00:39:13,180 --> 00:39:16,160
On the charge of
the attempted murder of Paul Nobbs,
671
00:39:16,620 --> 00:39:18,520
how do you find the defendant?
672
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:19,700
Guilty.
673
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:23,960
Dennis Andrew Nilsen,
674
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,000
your victims
were innocent young men,
675
00:39:27,180 --> 00:39:30,320
guilty only
of accepting your hospitality,
676
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:35,160
whereupon you ended their lives
cruelly and callously,
677
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,600
for reasons that will
remain known only to you.
678
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,520
The sentence for murder
is fixed in law.
679
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:46,840
It is imprisonment for life,
680
00:39:47,100 --> 00:39:49,780
and that is the sentence
which I pass on you
681
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,520
on each count of this indictment.
682
00:39:55,180 --> 00:39:56,520
Take him down.
683
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,520
DOOR SLAMS
684
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:25,900
INDISTINCT CONVERSATION
685
00:40:27,460 --> 00:40:29,520
Mr Jay. Well done.
686
00:40:29,620 --> 00:40:31,520
It went down to the wire
at the end, didn't it?
687
00:40:31,780 --> 00:40:33,320
You must be pleased it's over.
688
00:40:35,700 --> 00:40:38,520
If at any time in the future
you remember any more names...
689
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:41,520
..please write to me.
690
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:44,640
I promise
you'll be the first to know.
691
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,360
I think the jury got it right
in the end. Yeah.
692
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:48,520
I don't think I'm mad.
693
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,520
If you hadn't caught me that day...
694
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,200
..it'd be 115, not 15.
695
00:40:58,820 --> 00:41:00,340
I could never have stopped.
696
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:04,520
OK.
697
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:07,420
Good luck.
698
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:39,380
What will you do with it all?
699
00:41:39,940 --> 00:41:43,700
Oh, I don't know.
Chuck most of it, probably.
700
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:51,520
Mr Jay...um...
701
00:41:52,020 --> 00:41:53,800
do you mind if I ask you a question?
702
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:55,880
Go on.
703
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,520
When you first met him,
did you believe him straight away?
704
00:42:02,780 --> 00:42:03,820
Yes, I did.
705
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,080
What went through your mind
at that moment?
706
00:42:07,380 --> 00:42:08,560
Well, I thought, um...
707
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:16,020
Honestly?
708
00:42:19,980 --> 00:42:22,660
The first thing I thought was,
"I hope that I'm up to this."
709
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,180
Don't put that in your book.
710
00:42:26,660 --> 00:42:27,880
You have my word.
711
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:32,460
And about my book...
712
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:33,960
No, look, it's fine.
713
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,080
We both had our way
of looking at this.
714
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,140
Well, what will they do
with this place?
715
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:48,160
I don't know.
716
00:42:49,900 --> 00:42:52,400
Sell it or rent it out, I'd imagine.
Hm.
717
00:42:53,460 --> 00:42:55,460
Who'd want to live here?
I mean, it's...
718
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,300
There's the smell for one thing.
719
00:43:01,980 --> 00:43:03,240
D'you know the worst thing?
720
00:43:06,140 --> 00:43:07,660
I don't smell it any more.
721
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:15,540
I'll see you outside.
722
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,700
So, how have you been?
723
00:43:31,180 --> 00:43:35,820
Ah, you know. Adjusting to being
a permanent resident, and all.
724
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:38,700
Apart from that, not too bad.
725
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:41,380
I read your book. My book.
726
00:43:41,620 --> 00:43:42,560
What did you think?
727
00:43:42,860 --> 00:43:46,260
To be honest, Brian,
I found it absolutely terrifying.
728
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:49,520
But it's good.
729
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,000
Much better than I expected.
Of course, I have some thoughts.
730
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,140
Please don't be discouraged
by my observations.
731
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,860
I've lost none of my respect
or admiration for you,
732
00:44:01,060 --> 00:44:01,840
or your work.
733
00:44:08,220 --> 00:44:09,700
Oh, well, thank you. Um...
734
00:44:10,620 --> 00:44:12,380
I'm sure it'll be very helpful.
735
00:44:12,780 --> 00:44:15,080
My biggest concern is
you didn't name any of the victims.
736
00:44:15,460 --> 00:44:17,520
No, I-I wanted to respect
their privacy.
737
00:44:18,300 --> 00:44:20,540
Well, I think it's disrespectful
not naming them.
738
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,520
I robbed them of their life. Please
don't rob them of their identities.
739
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,000
And the title,
740
00:44:30,340 --> 00:44:32,520
Killing For Company,
is a little...
741
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,520
Ah. It should just be Nilsen.
742
00:44:37,660 --> 00:44:38,520
No.
743
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:40,420
Why not?
744
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:42,800
Book is about me, after all.
745
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:44,520
I'm not going to call it Nilsen.
746
00:44:44,940 --> 00:44:47,360
This isn't your book.
It's not about you.
747
00:44:48,060 --> 00:44:50,180
It's about how someone
like you came to be.
748
00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:51,560
I told you when we first met
749
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,820
that I wasn't going to use
grisly or emotive adjectives,
750
00:44:55,860 --> 00:44:58,000
and I have stuck to my word.
751
00:44:58,740 --> 00:45:00,520
But make no mistake,
752
00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:03,160
this isn't a celebration.
753
00:45:03,900 --> 00:45:05,520
It's a warning.
754
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,160
You know, there were
only 12 victims, not 15.
755
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,720
When I sat in the back of the
police car the night of my arrest,
756
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,060
they asked me how many there were,
and I wasn't very sure,
757
00:45:21,100 --> 00:45:23,520
so I just gave them a figure,
"15 or 16".
758
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,440
And three...three of those victims
were invented,
759
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:32,520
just to complement the continuity
of evidence for the police.
760
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:34,220
Keep them happy.
761
00:45:35,860 --> 00:45:38,900
Everybody has had a chance
to write their version of my story.
762
00:45:38,980 --> 00:45:40,340
When's it my turn?
763
00:45:49,060 --> 00:45:51,860
I'll send you a copy
when it's published.
764
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:54,260
Come and see me again.
765
00:45:55,305 --> 00:46:55,887
Learn Thai more flexible & enjoyable
with Banana Thai osdb.link/bananathai
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00:46:55,937 --> 00:47:00,487
Repair and Synchronization by
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