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TV REPORT: 'Dennis Nilsen
is charged with murdering
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'Kenneth Ockenden, Martyn Duffy,
William Sutherland, Malcolm Barlow,
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'John Howlett and Stephen Sinclair.
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'He's also accused of attempting
to murder Douglas Stewart
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'and Paul Knobbs.'
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As each of the
eight charges were read out,
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the defendant was asked,
"How say you, Nilson?
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"Are you guilty or not guilty?"
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'Eight times, in a firm voice,
he replied, "Not guilty." '
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'But is Nilson guilty of murder,
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'or is he guilty
only of manslaughter?'
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I don't understand.
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Well, it's quite simple.
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Having spoken to my solicitors,
my barrister, um...
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learned people
from the psychology profession,
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I'm not sure if I am guilty.
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But on-on what grounds?
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In all the months
that we've been talking
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you've not mentioned
a plea of insanity once.
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Not insanity, no.
Diminished responsibility.
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But am I mad? I don't know.
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Madness, as Quixote said,
"Madness is seeing life as it is,
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"and not as it should be."
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You murdered those men, Des.
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And you knew what you were doing.
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Did I?
I don't deny taking their lives.
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I must wear the label of a killer,
and maybe I should be hanged for it.
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But I didn't plan them. Never.
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I took them home
with much purer intentions.
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Then I'd wake up
and they'd be sat there, dead.
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Now, no-one feels the weight
of that more than me.
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But the power of responsibility,
at that time, was nil.
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I-I look in the mirror,
and I see me, yeah?
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Just me. It's friendly, helpful,
responsible me. Just that.
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If this was true,
then why didn't you go to the police
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after the first time it happened?
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Don't you think
I contemplated that, Brian? Eh?
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Don't you think I wanted
to hand myself in, or end it all?
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Y'know? But then...
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survival and shame and the future
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makes you promise yourself
it'll never happen again...
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till it does.
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But yeah, I mean...
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had it not been for the dog,
I may well have surrendered myself.
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All I know is I don't know,
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and thus, a jury needs to decide.
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The press will be allowed to publish
every word spoken in court.
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Every single detail exposed.
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Is that not what you're doing?
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Well, I'm not exploiting these young
men's tragedies to sell newspapers.
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No, you're just exploiting me.
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I hope you know me better than that.
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I just want to get to the truth.
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Don't you?
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KNOCK AT DOOR
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Peter, you know Mr Green, QC.
Allan, please.
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I hear he's got
the Krays' brief?
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And Ivan Lawrence as QC.
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00:03:16,965 --> 00:03:19,725
It's a formidable defence team,
to say the least.
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Please, take a seat.
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I take it their angle's
diminished responsibility?
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Didn't wash with Sutcliffe.
The jury won't buy it.
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Sutcliffe didn't watch TV
with the bodies.
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Nilsen's not insane.
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They don't have to prove that.
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All they have to do
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is show that he was suffering
some abnormality of mind
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and therefore not fully
responsible for what he was doing.
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We, on the other hand,
have to prove that these crimes
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were carefully planned
and premeditated.
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Surely his confessions do that.
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I'm afraid the confessions
only take us so far.
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What do you mean?
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He gave you a lot of answers
which prove what he did,
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but not what mind
he was in when he did it.
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He gave you exactly
what he wanted to.
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You hardly asked him
any probing questions
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about what was on his mind.
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Hold on. We didn't want him
to suddenly stop talking.
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We needed to identify 15 people.
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I understand that, but the effect
was he gave you a lot of details
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that aren't going
to help us convict him.
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I'm sorry,
are you saying he planned this?
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We'll never know. But if all
we have are the confessions,
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then that's not going to be enough.
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We need more. Much more.
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We should have pushed for motive.
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Don't listen to Green.
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Everybody always thinks they're
a better copper than a copper.
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If he'd have stopped talking
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there's no way we'd have
found the people we did.
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Listen, they're just looking
for someone to blame
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if this all goes pear-shaped.
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But we're gonna make
damned sure that doesn't happen.
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Yeah.
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See you tomorrow.
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00:05:25,645 --> 00:05:27,325
Thanks for meeting me.
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Please, take a seat.
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I almost didn't come.
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But you did.
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Cos you know this is wrong.
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I take it he's written to you over
the past few months? Oh, he has.
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How much?
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52 exercise books' worth.
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We're gonna need
to take a look at them.
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00:05:54,924 --> 00:05:57,645
That could be useful
to prove premeditation. Mr Jay...
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All that matters is that
we find as much evidence as we can
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that Nilsen was in his right mind.
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What if he's insane?
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You think he's insane?
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Well, it's not for me to decide.
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He's not mad.
He knew what he was doing was wrong.
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Well, I don't deny that.
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But at the same time,
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he was able to take
the head of someone he'd known,
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the severed head,
into a cooking pot on the stove,
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and let it simmer overnight.
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And then the next morning he was
able to pour himself a cup of coffee
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and butter a slice of toast,
whilst turning up the heat
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00:06:31,725 --> 00:06:33,645
to make sure that the head
was boiling properly.
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Now that is completely mad.
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I mean...
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He's really done a number
on you, hasn't he?
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You mistake me, Mr Jay.
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He's not my friend.
I know who he is.
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Do you?
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00:06:51,564 --> 00:06:54,604
Right, well,
if there's nothing else...
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00:06:54,645 --> 00:06:58,684
Listen, if he can convince a jury
that he was out of his mind somehow,
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then he only gets manslaughter.
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He goes to a hospital and then
in 15 years he's deemed cured,
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00:07:03,205 --> 00:07:05,845
and he's back out on the streets.
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00:07:05,885 --> 00:07:09,285
Is that justice for the victims
and their families?
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00:07:10,405 --> 00:07:12,164
If that happens...
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00:07:13,845 --> 00:07:16,364
..can you live with yourself?
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Because I know I can't.
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I'll drop the exercise books off
at the station.
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00:07:40,684 --> 00:07:42,164
'But we have a murder weapon.'
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A tie attached to a knotted rope.
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Seems pretty pre-emptive to me.
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00:07:46,765 --> 00:07:48,604
OK, good. What else?
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We've got Duffey's knives.
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Nilsen let them rust
in his back garden
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so they could never
be traced back to Martyn.
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00:07:53,405 --> 00:07:56,965
That shows knowledge of wrongdoing,
therefore criminally sane.
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00:07:57,004 --> 00:07:58,804
That's a stretch.
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00:07:58,845 --> 00:08:00,684
What about these books from Masters?
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00:08:00,725 --> 00:08:02,525
Surely there's got to be something
in here.
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00:08:02,564 --> 00:08:04,525
The tragedy of the monochrome man?
150
00:08:04,564 --> 00:08:06,525
I mean,
most of it's rambling nonsense.
151
00:08:06,564 --> 00:08:08,525
They help the defence if anything.
152
00:08:08,564 --> 00:08:10,205
What about Douglas Stewart?
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The press'll have a field day
with what happened to Stewart.
154
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Oh! Police embarrassment is hardly
relevant now. We have to use him.
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What else?
156
00:08:19,325 --> 00:08:20,804
What about the Soho Project?
157
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What about it?
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A woman called.
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Thinks someone in her therapy group
could be a possible victim...
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but I thought we weren't
looking for them any more.
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00:08:32,244 --> 00:08:35,405
OK, Steve and I will follow that up.
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00:08:35,445 --> 00:08:37,244
Is that our lot?
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Paul Knobbs,
in his statement, says...
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VOICES FADE
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Sorry to have called.
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It's just he's been having
this recurring dream,
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00:08:55,445 --> 00:08:59,165
but actually,
I think he's been attacked. OK.
168
00:08:59,205 --> 00:09:01,884
I hope I'm not wasting your time.
169
00:09:01,925 --> 00:09:04,524
Is it all right
if we have a word with him?
170
00:09:04,565 --> 00:09:07,445
Go easy on him, OK?
171
00:09:07,484 --> 00:09:10,644
Of course. What's his name?
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Carl.
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All right.
174
00:09:17,524 --> 00:09:19,004
'I'm in a dark room.'
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I don't know where, and...
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00:09:21,644 --> 00:09:25,965
there's music but it's calm.
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And then... this man appears.
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And I can't see his face,
179
00:09:33,805 --> 00:09:35,764
but he's very close to me.
180
00:09:37,445 --> 00:09:42,165
Um... But I'm not afraid,
because... I'm warm.
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00:09:43,205 --> 00:09:47,004
I'm wrapped up
in some kind of sleeping bag.
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00:09:48,644 --> 00:09:53,524
And then, all of a sudden,
I feel something around my neck...
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um...digging into my throat,
and-and choking me.
184
00:09:58,325 --> 00:10:02,165
And I can hear him saying,
"Just stay still".
185
00:10:02,205 --> 00:10:05,004
And then everything goes dark.
186
00:10:05,045 --> 00:10:10,925
But then, after a while,
I feel... something on my face,
187
00:10:10,965 --> 00:10:15,244
like... sort of like
a dog licking me or something.
188
00:10:15,284 --> 00:10:17,805
Can you remember what breed?
189
00:10:18,884 --> 00:10:21,884
Um... No.
190
00:10:26,284 --> 00:10:28,045
Carl?
191
00:10:29,404 --> 00:10:31,284
Have you seen this man?
192
00:10:34,004 --> 00:10:38,244
Yeah, yeah, on the news.
His name is Dennis Nilsen.
193
00:10:38,284 --> 00:10:42,845
He killed 15 young men
and attempted to kill seven others.
194
00:10:42,884 --> 00:10:45,484
All of these men were strangled.
195
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Mostly with a tie
or a headphone cord.
196
00:10:48,244 --> 00:10:51,524
But one, he tried to kill
with a sleeping bag.
197
00:10:53,364 --> 00:10:54,644
No...
198
00:10:56,805 --> 00:11:01,284
..um... cos the man in my dream
keeps telling me
199
00:11:01,325 --> 00:11:03,685
not to get caught up in the zip.
200
00:11:09,805 --> 00:11:12,004
He also said he
attempted to drown him
201
00:11:12,045 --> 00:11:15,165
before resuscitating him.
202
00:11:20,124 --> 00:11:22,404
I've never told
anyone about the water.
203
00:11:22,445 --> 00:11:24,845
Do you remember the water?
204
00:11:24,884 --> 00:11:26,685
Yeah.
205
00:11:26,725 --> 00:11:28,644
Um...
206
00:11:28,685 --> 00:11:30,524
It was cold water,
207
00:11:30,565 --> 00:11:33,764
and I was being held down.
208
00:11:33,805 --> 00:11:37,165
Where? In a bath or a sink?
209
00:11:37,205 --> 00:11:39,725
I don't understand. Are you...
210
00:11:41,524 --> 00:11:45,445
Are you telling me that
this actually happened? Yes.
211
00:11:45,484 --> 00:11:49,045
I think you're one
of Nilsen's attempted victims.
212
00:11:49,085 --> 00:11:51,244
Because everything
that you are telling us
213
00:11:51,284 --> 00:11:53,404
aligns to what he told us.
214
00:11:53,445 --> 00:11:57,045
Can you remember where you met him
or anything about where he lived?
215
00:11:57,085 --> 00:12:00,085
Well, no... You said he warned you
about the sleeping bag.
216
00:12:00,124 --> 00:12:02,725
What did he say exactly?
I don't know.
217
00:12:02,764 --> 00:12:04,045
When he warned you about the zip,
218
00:12:04,085 --> 00:12:05,884
it shows he was planning it
way before he did it
219
00:12:05,925 --> 00:12:08,124
so I need you to be clear. Come on.
220
00:12:08,165 --> 00:12:10,325
Just try to remember.
I don't wanna do this any more.
221
00:12:10,364 --> 00:12:12,244
Look, you have to.
I know this is tough,
222
00:12:12,284 --> 00:12:14,004
but we need all the details.
Detective.
223
00:12:14,045 --> 00:12:16,445
Just think. Detective,
he's told you he's had enough.
224
00:12:16,484 --> 00:12:19,445
I'm aware of that,
but I'm-I'm just trying... Peter.
225
00:12:24,764 --> 00:12:25,805
'We can't use him.'
226
00:12:25,845 --> 00:12:27,965
He won't survive cross-examination.
227
00:12:28,004 --> 00:12:30,925
You saw him in there.
They'll destroy him.
228
00:12:32,284 --> 00:12:33,965
I'll come back in a couple of days,
229
00:12:34,004 --> 00:12:35,725
see if I can get
a statement from him
230
00:12:35,764 --> 00:12:37,205
and we can read that out in court,
231
00:12:37,244 --> 00:12:38,925
if we need to.
232
00:12:38,965 --> 00:12:40,004
Peter...
233
00:12:40,045 --> 00:12:41,805
we have enough.
234
00:12:41,845 --> 00:12:43,805
He led us to the bodies,
for fuck's sake.
235
00:12:52,615 --> 00:12:55,534
For the first day of this,
the trial of Dennis Nilsen,
236
00:12:55,575 --> 00:12:58,534
the unassuming civil servant
who's charged with crimes
237
00:12:58,575 --> 00:13:01,615
that have shocked
and sickened the nation.
238
00:13:01,654 --> 00:13:05,054
Nilsen is charged with six murders
and two attempted murders.
239
00:13:05,095 --> 00:13:08,855
Details of a recently identified
seventh victim, Graham Allen,
240
00:13:08,894 --> 00:13:11,054
a heroin addict and petty criminal,
241
00:13:11,095 --> 00:13:14,134
will not be featured
on the indictment.
242
00:13:14,174 --> 00:13:16,534
CROWD SHOUTING
Masters!
243
00:13:16,575 --> 00:13:19,774
What's it like being friends
with a serial killer?
244
00:13:19,815 --> 00:13:22,975
What's it like rubbing shoulders
with a murderer, Masters?
245
00:13:23,014 --> 00:13:26,014
SHOUTING OVER EACH OTHER
246
00:13:26,054 --> 00:13:28,934
What's it like being friends
with a serial killer?
247
00:13:49,495 --> 00:13:51,414
Steve.
248
00:13:51,455 --> 00:13:54,615
You all right? Good.
249
00:13:54,654 --> 00:13:57,294
Sleep OK?
No. I never do.
250
00:14:08,695 --> 00:14:11,455
Oh, here he is.
Brian Masters -
251
00:14:11,495 --> 00:14:13,855
biographer to the
murderer of the century.
252
00:14:13,894 --> 00:14:15,615
Did you see the press outside?
253
00:14:15,654 --> 00:14:17,894
Jesus,
they'll have headlines for weeks.
254
00:14:17,934 --> 00:14:19,774
Revelling in the case, like carrion.
255
00:14:19,815 --> 00:14:22,134
One of the papers today
had the headline
256
00:14:22,174 --> 00:14:24,294
"House Of Horrors - The Trial."
257
00:14:24,335 --> 00:14:26,215
The only "house of horrors"
I've ever seen
258
00:14:26,254 --> 00:14:27,654
is Number Ten Downing Street.
259
00:14:27,695 --> 00:14:30,495
They mention you an' all.
Yes, I saw.
260
00:14:30,534 --> 00:14:34,335
Yeah? How do you feel, being talked
about in a national newspaper?
261
00:14:34,375 --> 00:14:37,215
You wanted to see me?
262
00:14:37,254 --> 00:14:39,695
Aye. They've brought me
my suit, but no tie.
263
00:14:39,735 --> 00:14:42,855
Come on, let me borrow yours.
264
00:14:44,534 --> 00:14:46,335
Right.
265
00:14:46,375 --> 00:14:48,615
I know it's an ask,
but an open-necked shirt
266
00:14:48,654 --> 00:14:51,534
isn't the kind of impression
I want to give out
267
00:14:51,575 --> 00:14:53,134
on the first day of the trial.
268
00:14:56,495 --> 00:14:58,215
Right. I'll leave it with the guard.
269
00:14:58,254 --> 00:15:00,134
My saviour.
270
00:15:00,174 --> 00:15:02,054
I started out with 15 ties,
271
00:15:02,095 --> 00:15:04,014
but now the police
have them all in evidence.
272
00:15:07,615 --> 00:15:10,134
You, the members of the jury,
will be asked
273
00:15:10,174 --> 00:15:13,575
to ascertain this man's state
of mind at the time of the killings
274
00:15:13,615 --> 00:15:15,815
and to decide, as a result,
275
00:15:15,855 --> 00:15:20,774
if he is guilty of the murder
of six innocent young men,
276
00:15:20,815 --> 00:15:24,455
or merely of their manslaughter.
277
00:15:24,495 --> 00:15:27,215
That Mr Nilsen killed these men
is not contested by the defence.
278
00:15:27,254 --> 00:15:30,095
They will argue, however,
279
00:15:30,134 --> 00:15:33,615
that he was out of his mind
when he committed his crimes,
280
00:15:33,654 --> 00:15:36,934
and that he cannot
be held truly accountable.
281
00:15:36,975 --> 00:15:41,495
But I intend to prove that Mr Nilsen
not only knew what he was doing,
282
00:15:41,534 --> 00:15:46,054
but that these crimes were
premeditated and carefully planned.
283
00:15:46,095 --> 00:15:49,495
He lured 15 innocent young men
284
00:15:49,534 --> 00:15:51,855
back to his home,
285
00:15:51,894 --> 00:15:55,215
before cruelly murdering them.
286
00:15:55,254 --> 00:15:57,735
Mr Nilsen is no madman.
287
00:15:57,774 --> 00:16:00,414
He is intelligent and rational,
288
00:16:00,455 --> 00:16:03,534
possessing the skills
to conceal his crimes,
289
00:16:03,575 --> 00:16:07,134
and manipulate those around him.
290
00:16:07,174 --> 00:16:12,815
He is, in short, an experienced
and calculating killer.
291
00:16:12,855 --> 00:16:17,294
I have spent a total of 14 hours
with Dennis Nilsen,
292
00:16:17,335 --> 00:16:20,495
on 16 separate occasions
since his arrest.
293
00:16:20,534 --> 00:16:23,335
You are a forensic psychiatrist,
Dr Hardy? Correct.
294
00:16:23,375 --> 00:16:26,095
Could you share with the court
the clinical evaluation
295
00:16:26,134 --> 00:16:28,294
you made of the defendant
during these many meetings?
296
00:16:28,335 --> 00:16:32,014
Did you find, for example,
any evidence of mental abnormality?
297
00:16:32,054 --> 00:16:34,294
Quite the reverse.
I formed the impression very quickly
298
00:16:34,335 --> 00:16:35,934
that he was
a highly intelligent man.
299
00:16:35,975 --> 00:16:40,254
In my view, Nilsen possesses
an extremely rational mind.
300
00:16:40,294 --> 00:16:42,414
He is capable of feeling very deeply
301
00:16:42,455 --> 00:16:45,934
and concealing these feelings
in order to preserve appearances.
302
00:16:45,975 --> 00:16:48,855
Thank you. No further questions,
my Lord.
303
00:16:51,495 --> 00:16:54,615
Dennis Nilsen killed
perhaps 15 young men,
304
00:16:54,654 --> 00:16:57,654
for no apparent reason.
305
00:16:57,695 --> 00:17:00,294
He kept their bodies,
bathed and dressed them,
306
00:17:00,335 --> 00:17:02,095
watched television programmes
with them,
307
00:17:02,134 --> 00:17:05,215
conversed with them
about those programmes.
308
00:17:05,254 --> 00:17:09,774
You say you find no evidence
of mental disturbance.
309
00:17:09,815 --> 00:17:13,775
Of course strangling people
is not normal behaviour.
310
00:17:13,815 --> 00:17:17,174
While Nilsen was on remand,
311
00:17:17,214 --> 00:17:21,095
he made a series of protests
and complaints
312
00:17:21,134 --> 00:17:24,694
about his treatment
in Her Majesty's Prison Herne Hill.
313
00:17:24,734 --> 00:17:30,015
Would you not agree that this shows
markedly paranoid tendencies?
314
00:17:30,055 --> 00:17:32,214
Perhaps. In some cases.
315
00:17:32,255 --> 00:17:35,575
And in this case, in fact,
his behaviour became so extreme,
316
00:17:35,615 --> 00:17:42,015
so erratic, that he was recently
put down as a suicide risk.
317
00:17:42,055 --> 00:17:43,654
Could you tell us, Dr Hardy,
318
00:17:43,694 --> 00:17:46,775
who the psychiatrist was
who recommended this step?
319
00:17:48,214 --> 00:17:49,255
I did.
320
00:17:49,295 --> 00:17:50,974
So, would you not agree
321
00:17:51,015 --> 00:17:54,575
that someone at risk of suicide
is, by definition,
322
00:17:54,615 --> 00:17:57,855
suffering a mental disorder?
323
00:17:57,894 --> 00:18:02,214
I suppose, in strict terms,
that is true.
324
00:18:02,255 --> 00:18:04,694
Thank you.
No further questions, my Lord.
325
00:18:26,654 --> 00:18:28,055
Miss Mead?
326
00:18:29,375 --> 00:18:31,615
They're using
what happened to Graham,
327
00:18:31,654 --> 00:18:33,894
making it all public,
328
00:18:33,934 --> 00:18:36,974
but he doesn't get justice?
329
00:18:37,015 --> 00:18:39,214
I know.
330
00:18:39,255 --> 00:18:42,775
Look, there are certain details
about his case that can...
331
00:18:42,815 --> 00:18:44,375
You didn't give a shit about him
332
00:18:44,414 --> 00:18:46,295
when you thought
he was just a junkie who OD'd
333
00:18:46,335 --> 00:18:48,454
in a squat or a bedsit somewhere.
334
00:18:48,494 --> 00:18:52,095
But now, you're gonna
bring up every little detail.
335
00:18:54,974 --> 00:18:56,494
I'm sorry.
336
00:18:59,134 --> 00:19:00,855
No, you're not.
337
00:19:02,414 --> 00:19:05,055
Do you have any fucking idea
what you've put me through?
338
00:19:06,654 --> 00:19:08,815
And he won't even get justice?
339
00:19:11,295 --> 00:19:14,535
All you lot care about
340
00:19:14,575 --> 00:19:18,015
is you're the people
that caught Dennis Nilsen.
341
00:19:21,414 --> 00:19:24,815
Peter. We're back in.
342
00:19:37,335 --> 00:19:38,454
'So, Mr Stewart,'
343
00:19:38,494 --> 00:19:40,494
after meeting him
in the Golden Lion,
344
00:19:40,535 --> 00:19:43,694
Mr Nilsen suggested that you
both go back to his residence
345
00:19:43,734 --> 00:19:45,974
to continue drinking?
That's right.
346
00:19:46,015 --> 00:19:50,015
195 Melrose Avenue.
I remember it very clearly.
347
00:19:50,055 --> 00:19:52,815
And what happened next?
We had a couple more pints.
348
00:19:52,855 --> 00:19:56,095
He offered me vodka
but I said, "It's not my drink".
349
00:19:56,134 --> 00:20:00,015
Then he asked me
to go to bed with him.
350
00:20:00,055 --> 00:20:02,015
I said that wasn't my thing either.
351
00:20:02,055 --> 00:20:05,174
So I fell asleep on the sofa.
352
00:20:05,214 --> 00:20:08,494
I woke up,
must have been a few hours later,
353
00:20:08,535 --> 00:20:12,214
and my ankles were tied together
with a tie.
354
00:20:12,255 --> 00:20:15,295
Nilsen was kneeling on my chest,
trying to strangle me.
355
00:20:15,335 --> 00:20:16,654
But I fought him off.
356
00:20:16,694 --> 00:20:18,575
I wasn't going down
without a fight.
357
00:20:18,615 --> 00:20:21,414
How did he respond to that?
358
00:20:21,454 --> 00:20:23,815
He started shouting,
"Take my money, take my money!"
359
00:20:23,855 --> 00:20:25,174
Really loud, like.
360
00:20:31,414 --> 00:20:35,015
But you weren't stealing from him?
361
00:20:35,055 --> 00:20:37,335
Seemed like he was trying
to make the neighbours think
362
00:20:37,375 --> 00:20:39,335
he was being attacked himself.
363
00:20:39,375 --> 00:20:41,615
He was trying to create an alibi.
364
00:20:41,654 --> 00:20:44,654
Hardly the act
of a man out of his mind.
365
00:20:44,694 --> 00:20:47,015
Thank you, Mr Stewart.
No further questions, my Lord.
366
00:20:47,055 --> 00:20:52,214
In your police statement,
Mr Stewart,
367
00:20:52,255 --> 00:20:55,894
you said you stayed
for another drink with Nilsen.
368
00:20:55,934 --> 00:20:59,535
Another drink, after he
allegedly tried to kill you?
369
00:20:59,575 --> 00:21:02,295
Well, I thought that was
the best way to calm him down.
370
00:21:02,335 --> 00:21:03,454
I see.
371
00:21:03,494 --> 00:21:05,015
You mentioned earlier
372
00:21:05,055 --> 00:21:09,095
that you remembered seeing
the address as 195 Melrose Avenue.
373
00:21:09,134 --> 00:21:11,775
How did you remember
the address so clearly?
374
00:21:11,815 --> 00:21:13,815
I saw the number on the door.
375
00:21:13,855 --> 00:21:17,095
You also told us that
when you met him in the pub
376
00:21:17,134 --> 00:21:19,454
the defendant introduced himself
to you as Dennis.
377
00:21:19,494 --> 00:21:22,575
Yeah.
And that when you got to his house
378
00:21:22,615 --> 00:21:25,615
to continue your drinking session
together, he offered you vodka.
379
00:21:25,654 --> 00:21:26,934
That's right.
380
00:21:26,974 --> 00:21:30,414
Unfortunately, none of these
things are true, are they?
381
00:21:30,454 --> 00:21:32,734
The defendant's
first name may be Dennis
382
00:21:32,775 --> 00:21:35,575
but he always calls himself Des.
383
00:21:35,615 --> 00:21:39,414
He always drinks rum, not vodka,
384
00:21:39,454 --> 00:21:42,295
and there is no number plate
on the house at Melrose Avenue.
385
00:21:42,335 --> 00:21:43,894
There never has been.
386
00:21:43,934 --> 00:21:46,335
I dunno, I thought there was.
387
00:21:46,375 --> 00:21:49,654
Mm, but you seemed
so sure of the details before.
388
00:21:49,694 --> 00:21:51,055
And why might that be?
389
00:21:51,095 --> 00:21:55,494
Why might someone go to the trouble
of furnishing their testimony
390
00:21:55,535 --> 00:21:58,654
with a great deal of specific detail
391
00:21:58,694 --> 00:22:01,894
that seems to be
pulled from thin air?
392
00:22:01,934 --> 00:22:04,375
I put it to you, Mr Stewart,
that your testimony to this court
393
00:22:04,414 --> 00:22:06,375
is nothing more than a pack of lies,
394
00:22:06,414 --> 00:22:09,335
dreamt up to satisfy
a tabloid newspaper.
395
00:22:11,974 --> 00:22:14,535
Well, Mr Stewart?
396
00:22:14,575 --> 00:22:16,974
Have you sold your story?
397
00:22:17,015 --> 00:22:21,055
Er... Y... Yes.
398
00:22:21,095 --> 00:22:24,375
THEY SIGH
No further questions, my Lord.
399
00:22:26,934 --> 00:22:28,255
'How dare he!'
400
00:22:28,295 --> 00:22:32,134
Standing up there in that ridiculous
suit, spouting those lies.
401
00:22:32,174 --> 00:22:34,974
So you're saying that
Douglas Stewart is lying?
402
00:22:35,015 --> 00:22:37,134
That you didn't try and kill him?
403
00:22:37,174 --> 00:22:39,575
Yes, I did.
But not as he described it.
404
00:22:39,615 --> 00:22:42,335
This is about absolute truth, Brian.
405
00:22:42,375 --> 00:22:45,454
It has to be,
otherwise we don't get any answers.
406
00:22:45,494 --> 00:22:47,335
You cannot possibly believe
407
00:22:47,375 --> 00:22:49,694
that what you put him through
out there was justified.
408
00:22:49,734 --> 00:22:52,134
What are you getting
so agitated about?
409
00:22:52,174 --> 00:22:56,015
I'm giving you a wonderful
final act for your book.
410
00:22:56,055 --> 00:22:57,934
Like you said about the book, Brian,
411
00:22:57,974 --> 00:23:00,134
it's not up to us
to make subjective decisions.
412
00:23:00,174 --> 00:23:02,535
We have to remain objective
in all of this.
413
00:23:02,575 --> 00:23:04,934
Thus, it is up to
the jury to decide
414
00:23:04,974 --> 00:23:07,095
whether I'm just bad...
415
00:23:07,134 --> 00:23:08,694
or outrageously bad.
416
00:23:17,654 --> 00:23:19,775
See you back in chambers. Thank you.
417
00:23:19,815 --> 00:23:21,615
Did you know he'd sold
his story to the press?
418
00:23:21,654 --> 00:23:22,815
Course I didn't!
419
00:23:22,855 --> 00:23:25,615
We're lucky the judge didn't strike
his testimony from the record.
420
00:23:25,654 --> 00:23:27,414
It can't have harmed us that much,
right?
421
00:23:27,454 --> 00:23:30,575
Stewart's credibility is gone,
his testimony is now useless.
422
00:23:30,615 --> 00:23:31,815
We're in a lot of trouble.
423
00:23:31,855 --> 00:23:33,134
Surely we still have enough?
424
00:23:33,174 --> 00:23:35,815
I mean, we have the tie with the
knotted rope, and Duffey's knives.
425
00:23:35,855 --> 00:23:37,535
All those show
premeditation to murder.
426
00:23:37,575 --> 00:23:39,734
Peter, physical evidence
is all very good and well,
427
00:23:39,775 --> 00:23:40,894
but it's also circumstantial.
428
00:23:40,934 --> 00:23:42,255
We had an eye witness, a survivor,
429
00:23:42,295 --> 00:23:45,375
and without that,
we're significantly weaker.
430
00:23:45,414 --> 00:23:46,494
Sorry.
431
00:24:01,575 --> 00:24:03,454
Hello, Carl.
432
00:24:03,494 --> 00:24:04,855
Can I come in?
433
00:24:15,174 --> 00:24:16,894
How have you been?
434
00:24:18,615 --> 00:24:20,615
Things keep coming back to me.
435
00:24:21,855 --> 00:24:23,654
What kind of things?
436
00:24:27,375 --> 00:24:29,375
He said he liked my shoes.
437
00:24:34,575 --> 00:24:35,855
Thank you.
438
00:24:39,894 --> 00:24:44,095
The doctor said
it was all nightmares, caused...
439
00:24:46,055 --> 00:24:50,095
I'd had a bit of a hard time
with an ex of mine.
440
00:24:51,454 --> 00:24:54,375
They even put me on tablets
to block everything out.
441
00:25:01,535 --> 00:25:03,855
Listen, Carl, um...
442
00:25:06,055 --> 00:25:08,255
..the trial
isn't going how we'd hoped.
443
00:25:08,295 --> 00:25:10,934
We think your testimony
could be crucial.
444
00:25:10,974 --> 00:25:13,335
But I've already given my statement.
445
00:25:13,375 --> 00:25:14,894
The man said that would be enough.
446
00:25:14,934 --> 00:25:18,295
I know, but we need you
to give it in court.
447
00:25:19,615 --> 00:25:20,775
What, with him there?
448
00:25:20,815 --> 00:25:23,255
You wouldn't have to be close
to him... No, I can't.
449
00:25:23,295 --> 00:25:27,174
Carl...
He killed me, Mr Jay.
450
00:25:27,214 --> 00:25:30,934
And then he...
brought me back to life.
451
00:25:30,974 --> 00:25:34,694
I can't imagine
what you've been through, Carl.
452
00:25:34,734 --> 00:25:37,414
I really can't.
453
00:25:37,454 --> 00:25:39,414
But please believe me,
454
00:25:39,454 --> 00:25:42,214
if he gets a lesser sentence,
you'll find no peace.
455
00:25:42,255 --> 00:25:44,654
I'm sorry. I can't...
456
00:25:47,134 --> 00:25:50,055
..be in the same room as him.
457
00:25:51,535 --> 00:25:53,055
I can't go back there.
458
00:25:55,335 --> 00:25:57,734
Then they'll subpoena you anyway.
459
00:25:57,775 --> 00:26:00,055
You'll be forced to testify.
460
00:26:03,414 --> 00:26:05,214
So I don't have a choice?
461
00:26:15,375 --> 00:26:16,894
DOOR OPENS
462
00:26:22,934 --> 00:26:24,855
DOOR SLAMS SHUT
463
00:26:26,015 --> 00:26:29,095
I swear by Almighty God
that the evidence I shall give
464
00:26:29,134 --> 00:26:31,894
shall be the truth, the whole truth
and nothing by the truth.
465
00:26:33,255 --> 00:26:35,134
Could you recount, Mr Stottor,
466
00:26:35,174 --> 00:26:37,974
the events of that night
in April 1982,
467
00:26:38,015 --> 00:26:39,454
when you met the defendant?
468
00:26:45,454 --> 00:26:49,015
Where, for example,
did you meet Mr Nilsen?
469
00:26:49,055 --> 00:26:51,214
In The Black Cap, Camden.
470
00:26:51,255 --> 00:26:53,535
I was depressed.
471
00:26:53,575 --> 00:26:56,414
I'd just broken up with someone.
472
00:26:56,454 --> 00:26:59,454
Speak up, please, Mr Stottor.
473
00:27:03,255 --> 00:27:04,734
He was nice to me.
474
00:27:04,775 --> 00:27:07,535
In what sense was he nice?
475
00:27:07,575 --> 00:27:10,815
He bought me drinks.
476
00:27:10,855 --> 00:27:14,055
Er... He asked me about my family.
477
00:27:14,095 --> 00:27:16,575
He asked if you had family?
478
00:27:16,615 --> 00:27:21,335
Yes, and then he invited me
back to his flat for a drink.
479
00:27:22,494 --> 00:27:25,615
Um... We just drank a lot
and then he said
480
00:27:25,654 --> 00:27:28,535
I could go to sleep on his bed.
481
00:27:28,575 --> 00:27:31,295
And then he warned me
not to get caught
482
00:27:31,335 --> 00:27:33,615
in the zip of the sleeping bag.
483
00:27:33,654 --> 00:27:34,934
Why do you think that was?
484
00:27:34,974 --> 00:27:37,134
Was it perhaps because
he was planning an alibi
485
00:27:37,174 --> 00:27:40,134
in case you managed to escape?
Objection, my Lord. Leading.
486
00:27:40,174 --> 00:27:42,015
Sustained.
487
00:27:42,055 --> 00:27:44,255
Tell us what happened next.
488
00:27:50,815 --> 00:27:53,174
I woke up and I couldn't breathe.
489
00:27:53,214 --> 00:27:56,974
He was behind me and...
490
00:27:57,015 --> 00:27:59,815
I could feel
something digging into my neck.
491
00:27:59,855 --> 00:28:03,894
The pressure got worse...
492
00:28:03,934 --> 00:28:06,375
and the pain was unbearable.
493
00:28:06,414 --> 00:28:07,734
I couldn't see,
494
00:28:07,775 --> 00:28:11,295
or speak, or swallow.
495
00:28:11,335 --> 00:28:14,414
And I could hear him saying,
"Keep still".
496
00:28:14,454 --> 00:28:18,934
The next thing I knew,
I was in water.
497
00:28:18,974 --> 00:28:22,775
In a bath. Being pushed down.
Again and again.
498
00:28:22,815 --> 00:28:27,055
And I didn't know where I was
or what was happening.
499
00:28:27,095 --> 00:28:31,055
And I swallowed water.
500
00:28:31,095 --> 00:28:34,934
I couldn't resist any more
and I realised...
501
00:28:34,974 --> 00:28:37,734
that I was dying.
502
00:28:39,335 --> 00:28:40,934
Thank you, Mr Stottor.
503
00:28:40,974 --> 00:28:43,174
No further questions, my Lord.
504
00:28:43,214 --> 00:28:47,214
You have an alter-ego,
Mr Stottor, do you not?
505
00:28:47,255 --> 00:28:49,414
Khara Le Fox.
506
00:28:49,454 --> 00:28:51,255
A drag act.
507
00:28:51,295 --> 00:28:53,694
You're a female impersonator.
508
00:28:53,734 --> 00:28:55,615
I used to be, yes.
509
00:28:55,654 --> 00:28:58,015
You've already been asked,
Mr Stottor,
510
00:28:58,055 --> 00:28:59,575
if you could speak up
511
00:28:59,615 --> 00:29:02,174
for the benefit of the court?
512
00:29:02,214 --> 00:29:04,535
LOUDER: Yes.
513
00:29:04,575 --> 00:29:06,575
But...
514
00:29:06,615 --> 00:29:11,134
since the attack,
I'm not able to sing any more.
515
00:29:11,174 --> 00:29:14,335
And you had several relationships
with men,
516
00:29:14,375 --> 00:29:17,335
including one which became abusive.
517
00:29:17,375 --> 00:29:20,815
Your night with Nilsen
was, therefore,
518
00:29:20,855 --> 00:29:24,494
not your first violent
homosexual encounter...
519
00:29:24,535 --> 00:29:27,055
My Lord, I must object
to this line of questioning.
520
00:29:27,095 --> 00:29:29,414
A history of deviant encounters
521
00:29:29,454 --> 00:29:32,454
raises the possibility
of a sex game gone wrong, my Lord.
522
00:29:32,494 --> 00:29:36,015
Sustained. Move on, Mr Lawrence.
523
00:29:36,055 --> 00:29:39,414
Now, could you tell us, Mr Stottor,
524
00:29:39,454 --> 00:29:42,174
where you woke up
after you had been in the bath?
525
00:29:42,214 --> 00:29:44,375
On the bed.
526
00:29:44,414 --> 00:29:48,174
On the bed.
And was the room warm or cold?
527
00:29:48,214 --> 00:29:50,015
Warm.
528
00:29:50,055 --> 00:29:52,214
Nilsen had heated the room,
had he not?
529
00:29:52,255 --> 00:29:55,295
He had put on all the bars
on the electric fire.
530
00:29:56,855 --> 00:29:59,775
Yes, I suppose so.
531
00:29:59,815 --> 00:30:04,095
And how long after you woke up
did you leave the flat?
532
00:30:04,134 --> 00:30:08,095
Well, I kept falling asleep,
so maybe one or two days.
533
00:30:08,134 --> 00:30:13,575
One or two days.
Did Nilsen keep you under duress?
534
00:30:13,615 --> 00:30:18,494
No, but I was very confused...
535
00:30:18,535 --> 00:30:20,974
and also in a lot of pain.
536
00:30:21,015 --> 00:30:26,335
Did he, in fact, walk you to the
Tube station when you wanted to go?
537
00:30:27,295 --> 00:30:28,414
Yes.
538
00:30:28,454 --> 00:30:32,815
This supposedly cold
and calculating killer,
539
00:30:32,855 --> 00:30:34,734
with every opportunity
to finish the job,
540
00:30:34,775 --> 00:30:38,335
instead let you sleep
in a warm bed for days,
541
00:30:38,375 --> 00:30:40,894
before seeing you home safely.
542
00:30:40,934 --> 00:30:44,174
In fact,
aside from the incident itself,
543
00:30:44,214 --> 00:30:48,494
did he not show you more
care and kindness that evening
544
00:30:48,535 --> 00:30:53,255
than anyone else in your life
had done for a very long time?
545
00:30:55,055 --> 00:30:56,494
Yes.
546
00:30:59,214 --> 00:31:01,174
That's what I can't understand.
547
00:31:02,535 --> 00:31:04,894
Is he my murderer or my saviour?
548
00:31:06,055 --> 00:31:10,295
How peculiar that is.
549
00:31:11,734 --> 00:31:14,295
No further questions, my Lord.
550
00:31:15,414 --> 00:31:17,654
You may step down, Mr Stottor.
551
00:31:21,974 --> 00:31:24,375
You did really well in there.
552
00:31:24,414 --> 00:31:25,694
Listen, Carl...
553
00:31:25,734 --> 00:31:28,214
I want to go home now.
554
00:31:28,255 --> 00:31:30,575
CROWD CALLS OUT
555
00:31:30,615 --> 00:31:33,694
MAN SHOUTS: He should
have killed you, you queer!
556
00:31:47,815 --> 00:31:51,615
VOICES FADE
557
00:31:56,055 --> 00:31:57,214
Mr Jay...
558
00:32:05,694 --> 00:32:07,855
I feel I owe you an apology.
559
00:32:10,095 --> 00:32:12,414
You were right.
560
00:32:12,454 --> 00:32:14,615
He's not insane.
561
00:32:14,654 --> 00:32:18,535
He knew exactly what he was doing.
562
00:32:18,575 --> 00:32:23,134
As much then as he does now.
563
00:32:43,134 --> 00:32:45,694
PHOTOGRAPHERS SHOUT
564
00:33:17,575 --> 00:33:19,055
Detective, are you confident?
565
00:33:19,095 --> 00:33:21,494
Do you think you'll get
justice for the victims, Detective?
566
00:33:21,535 --> 00:33:23,694
'In the following days
you interviewed him at length.
567
00:33:23,734 --> 00:33:24,615
'Is that correct?'
568
00:33:24,654 --> 00:33:28,375
Yes, we interviewed him
for a total of 31 hours.
569
00:33:28,414 --> 00:33:29,855
And in those 31 hours,
570
00:33:29,894 --> 00:33:33,375
did Mr Nilsen ever mention
visions or voices in his head
571
00:33:33,414 --> 00:33:35,575
telling him to commit his crimes?
No.
572
00:33:35,615 --> 00:33:36,855
Did he ever show any signs at all
573
00:33:36,894 --> 00:33:39,654
of being out of his mind,
so to speak,
574
00:33:39,694 --> 00:33:42,454
or mentally unwell in any way?
No. Quite the opposite, in fact.
575
00:33:42,494 --> 00:33:45,815
He seemed... calm.
576
00:33:45,855 --> 00:33:48,855
Collected. In control.
577
00:33:48,894 --> 00:33:51,174
Hardly a madman.
No.
578
00:33:51,214 --> 00:33:52,934
Detective Chief Inspector Jay,
579
00:33:52,974 --> 00:33:54,414
could you please tell the court,
580
00:33:54,454 --> 00:33:56,214
for how long
have you been a police officer?
581
00:33:56,255 --> 00:33:58,934
Almost 23 years.
582
00:33:58,974 --> 00:34:00,615
And based on those
years of experience,
583
00:34:00,654 --> 00:34:03,734
what is your professional
opinion of Dennis Nilsen?
584
00:34:06,375 --> 00:34:10,174
I've seen criminals
in all shapes and sizes.
585
00:34:10,214 --> 00:34:14,654
When they're on remand, they ask to
be visited by all sorts of people,
586
00:34:14,694 --> 00:34:18,094
priests, rabbis, imams.
587
00:34:18,135 --> 00:34:21,534
I even had a fella
who asked for a shaman.
588
00:34:21,574 --> 00:34:25,815
Because most of them
are just wanting forgiveness.
589
00:34:27,775 --> 00:34:29,534
Mr Nilsen's only visitor
590
00:34:29,574 --> 00:34:32,054
in the eight months
whilst he was on remand
591
00:34:32,094 --> 00:34:33,295
was a biographer.
592
00:34:35,054 --> 00:34:38,414
In my opinion,
he's a remorseless coward
593
00:34:38,454 --> 00:34:41,534
who killed innocent
and vulnerable men as they slept.
594
00:34:42,974 --> 00:34:44,775
Thank you,
Detective Chief Inspector.
595
00:34:44,815 --> 00:34:47,655
No further questions, my Lord.
596
00:34:47,695 --> 00:34:49,375
Detective Chief Inspector,
597
00:34:49,414 --> 00:34:53,335
you say you interviewed Nilsen
for 31 hours, yes?
598
00:34:53,375 --> 00:34:54,494
That's right.
599
00:34:54,534 --> 00:34:58,335
In all that time
of him talking almost incessantly,
600
00:34:58,375 --> 00:35:03,094
did he ever mention
planning the murders at all?
601
00:35:04,375 --> 00:35:05,375
No.
602
00:35:05,414 --> 00:35:08,295
No further questions, my Lord.
603
00:35:08,335 --> 00:35:11,655
You may step down, Officer.
Thank you.
604
00:35:11,695 --> 00:35:15,255
We have an old Latin phrase
in the law,
605
00:35:15,295 --> 00:35:17,215
"Res ipsa loquitur",
606
00:35:17,255 --> 00:35:19,255
"The act speaks for itself."
607
00:35:19,295 --> 00:35:21,855
What sort of man kills people,
608
00:35:21,894 --> 00:35:24,175
lives with their bodies
rotting under the floorboards,
609
00:35:24,215 --> 00:35:28,094
and flushes pieces of them
down the lavatory?
610
00:35:28,135 --> 00:35:32,855
Do these seem to you the actions
of a man in his right mind?
611
00:35:32,894 --> 00:35:36,175
If you think,
as we invite you to think,
612
00:35:36,215 --> 00:35:38,335
and as the evidence surely shows,
613
00:35:38,375 --> 00:35:42,414
that these crimes
were not planned or premeditated,
614
00:35:42,454 --> 00:35:45,894
but were due to Nilsen's
seriously abnormal personality
615
00:35:45,934 --> 00:35:47,375
and way of thinking,
616
00:35:47,414 --> 00:35:50,175
then you will find him
not guilty of murder,
617
00:35:50,215 --> 00:35:55,054
but guilty of manslaughter
by way of diminished responsibility.
618
00:35:55,094 --> 00:35:59,094
That is the verdict
which we invite you to return.
619
00:36:01,094 --> 00:36:02,855
What's taking them so long?
620
00:36:04,414 --> 00:36:07,494
Same again? Wee ones?
621
00:36:12,614 --> 00:36:14,974
DOOR OPENS
622
00:36:29,974 --> 00:36:31,454
Madam Foreman of the jury.
623
00:36:33,375 --> 00:36:36,335
Have you reached verdicts
on which you are all agreed?
624
00:36:37,335 --> 00:36:38,735
No, we have not.
625
00:36:38,775 --> 00:36:41,094
THEY SIGH
626
00:36:41,135 --> 00:36:44,335
Might you reach a verdict if the
court sits until early evening?
627
00:36:44,375 --> 00:36:47,175
I don't believe so, your Honour.
628
00:36:47,215 --> 00:36:49,574
Very well.
You will retire overnight.
629
00:36:49,614 --> 00:36:51,614
The court will reconvene
in the morning
630
00:36:51,655 --> 00:36:54,414
where I will accept
a majority verdict.
631
00:37:01,014 --> 00:37:02,854
TV REPORT: 'More time's
now being spent
632
00:37:02,894 --> 00:37:05,255
'on what's possibly wrong
with Dennis Nilsen
633
00:37:05,294 --> 00:37:07,175
'than what he's actually done.
634
00:37:07,215 --> 00:37:11,974
'A man who has described himself
as the "murderer of the century".
635
00:37:12,014 --> 00:37:15,814
'A defence psychiatrist said Nilsen
acted as if HE were the judge,
636
00:37:15,854 --> 00:37:18,494
'judging this case
of an infamous crime.
637
00:37:18,535 --> 00:37:19,775
'He shows off.
638
00:37:19,814 --> 00:37:23,735
'He really believes he is the most
important person of the century.
639
00:37:23,775 --> 00:37:27,095
'The defence expert found another
way of describing Nilsen's mind.
640
00:37:27,135 --> 00:37:29,294
' "His personality
was like his house.
641
00:37:29,334 --> 00:37:31,494
' "It looked perfectly
all right from the outside,
642
00:37:31,535 --> 00:37:34,014
' "but perhaps there was something
of a funny smell about it,
643
00:37:34,055 --> 00:37:36,255
' "and when you looked
under the floorboards,
644
00:37:36,294 --> 00:37:38,175
' "you would find horrors." '
645
00:37:38,215 --> 00:37:40,735
The jury is returning.
646
00:38:08,215 --> 00:38:10,374
Would the foreman
of the jury please stand?
647
00:38:13,294 --> 00:38:14,454
Madam Foreman,
648
00:38:14,494 --> 00:38:17,334
do you have a majority
on your verdicts?
649
00:38:17,374 --> 00:38:19,494
We do.
650
00:38:19,535 --> 00:38:22,454
On the charge of the murder
of Stephen Sinclair,
651
00:38:22,494 --> 00:38:24,494
how do you find the defendant?
652
00:38:25,535 --> 00:38:26,854
Guilty.
653
00:38:28,374 --> 00:38:31,934
On the charge of the murder
of Kenneth Ockenden,
654
00:38:31,974 --> 00:38:33,494
how do you find the defendant?
655
00:38:33,535 --> 00:38:34,575
Guilty.
656
00:38:34,615 --> 00:38:37,575
On the charge of the murder
of John Howlett,
657
00:38:37,615 --> 00:38:40,055
how do you find the defendant?
658
00:38:40,095 --> 00:38:41,294
Guilty.
659
00:38:41,334 --> 00:38:44,095
On the charge of the murder
of Martyn Duffey,
660
00:38:44,135 --> 00:38:45,775
how do you find the defendant?
661
00:38:45,814 --> 00:38:47,494
Guilty.
662
00:38:47,535 --> 00:38:50,294
On the charge of the murder
of Billy Sutherland,
663
00:38:50,334 --> 00:38:52,255
how do you find the defendant?
664
00:38:52,294 --> 00:38:53,655
Guilty.
665
00:38:53,695 --> 00:38:55,854
On the charge of the murder
of Malcolm Barlow,
666
00:38:55,894 --> 00:38:57,615
how do you find the defendant?
667
00:38:57,655 --> 00:38:59,175
Guilty.
668
00:38:59,215 --> 00:39:02,454
On the charge of the
attempted murder of Douglas Stewart,
669
00:39:02,494 --> 00:39:04,294
how do you find the defendant?
670
00:39:04,334 --> 00:39:06,175
Guilty.
671
00:39:06,215 --> 00:39:09,494
On the charge of
the attempted murder of Paul Nobbs,
672
00:39:09,535 --> 00:39:11,655
how do you find the defendant?
673
00:39:11,695 --> 00:39:12,974
Guilty.
674
00:39:14,334 --> 00:39:17,014
Dennis Andrew Nilsen,
675
00:39:17,055 --> 00:39:19,735
your victims
were innocent young men,
676
00:39:19,775 --> 00:39:23,215
guilty only
of accepting your hospitality,
677
00:39:23,255 --> 00:39:27,894
whereupon you ended their lives
cruelly and callously,
678
00:39:27,934 --> 00:39:32,894
for reasons that will
remain known only to you.
679
00:39:32,934 --> 00:39:37,655
The sentence for murder
is fixed in law.
680
00:39:37,695 --> 00:39:40,014
It is imprisonment for life,
681
00:39:40,055 --> 00:39:42,854
and that is the sentence
which I pass on you
682
00:39:42,894 --> 00:39:46,215
on each count of this indictment.
683
00:39:47,814 --> 00:39:49,374
Take him down.
684
00:40:15,014 --> 00:40:17,135
DOOR SLAMS
685
00:40:17,175 --> 00:40:19,055
INDISTINCT CONVERSATION
686
00:40:19,095 --> 00:40:22,334
Mr Jay. Well done.
687
00:40:22,374 --> 00:40:24,175
It went down to the wire
at the end, didn't it?
688
00:40:24,215 --> 00:40:26,374
You must be pleased it's over.
689
00:40:28,454 --> 00:40:31,535
If at any time in the future
you remember any more names...
690
00:40:33,255 --> 00:40:34,695
..please write to me.
691
00:40:34,735 --> 00:40:37,894
I promise
you'll be the first to know.
692
00:40:37,934 --> 00:40:40,095
I think the jury got it right
in the end. Yeah.
693
00:40:40,135 --> 00:40:41,535
I don't think I'm mad.
694
00:40:42,854 --> 00:40:45,575
If you hadn't caught me that day...
695
00:40:47,454 --> 00:40:49,974
..it'd be 115, not 15.
696
00:40:51,775 --> 00:40:53,615
I could never have stopped.
697
00:40:56,135 --> 00:40:57,454
OK.
698
00:40:59,334 --> 00:41:00,535
Good luck.
699
00:41:30,974 --> 00:41:32,775
What will you do with it all?
700
00:41:32,814 --> 00:41:36,775
Oh, I don't know.
Chuck most of it, probably.
701
00:41:42,095 --> 00:41:44,414
Mr Jay...um...
702
00:41:44,454 --> 00:41:46,575
do you mind if I ask you a question?
703
00:41:47,775 --> 00:41:48,974
Go on.
704
00:41:49,014 --> 00:41:53,615
When you first met him,
did you believe him straight away?
705
00:41:55,535 --> 00:41:56,655
Yes, I did.
706
00:41:57,854 --> 00:41:59,615
What went through your mind
at that moment?
707
00:41:59,655 --> 00:42:01,814
Well, I thought, um...
708
00:42:07,454 --> 00:42:09,014
Honestly?
709
00:42:12,814 --> 00:42:15,575
The first thing I thought was,
"I hope that I'm up to this."
710
00:42:15,615 --> 00:42:18,095
Don't put that in your book.
711
00:42:19,294 --> 00:42:20,974
You have my word.
712
00:42:23,854 --> 00:42:25,814
And about my book...
713
00:42:25,854 --> 00:42:27,454
No, look, it's fine.
714
00:42:29,934 --> 00:42:32,775
We both had our way
of looking at this.
715
00:42:35,974 --> 00:42:39,135
Well, what will they do
with this place?
716
00:42:39,175 --> 00:42:41,294
I don't know.
717
00:42:42,334 --> 00:42:45,934
Sell it or rent it out, I'd imagine.
Hm.
718
00:42:45,974 --> 00:42:49,135
Who'd want to live here?
I mean, it's...
719
00:42:49,175 --> 00:42:52,695
There's the smell for one thing.
720
00:42:54,854 --> 00:42:57,215
D'you know the worst thing?
721
00:42:58,934 --> 00:43:01,055
I don't smell it any more.
722
00:43:06,934 --> 00:43:08,735
I'll see you outside.
723
00:43:21,334 --> 00:43:24,215
So, how have you been?
724
00:43:24,255 --> 00:43:28,894
Ah, you know. Adjusting to being
a permanent resident, and all.
725
00:43:28,934 --> 00:43:32,055
Apart from that, not too bad.
726
00:43:32,095 --> 00:43:34,055
I read your book. My book.
727
00:43:34,095 --> 00:43:35,814
What did you think?
728
00:43:35,854 --> 00:43:39,615
To be honest, Brian,
I found it absolutely terrifying.
729
00:43:41,175 --> 00:43:42,575
But it's good.
730
00:43:42,615 --> 00:43:45,735
Much better than I expected.
Of course, I have some thoughts.
731
00:43:48,294 --> 00:43:50,894
Please don't be discouraged
by my observations.
732
00:43:50,934 --> 00:43:53,655
I've lost none of my respect
or admiration for you,
733
00:43:53,695 --> 00:43:55,615
or your work.
734
00:44:00,854 --> 00:44:03,215
Oh, well, thank you. Um...
735
00:44:03,255 --> 00:44:05,095
I'm sure it'll be very helpful.
736
00:44:05,135 --> 00:44:07,775
My biggest concern is
you didn't name any of the victims.
737
00:44:07,814 --> 00:44:10,695
No, I-I wanted to respect
their privacy.
738
00:44:10,735 --> 00:44:13,934
Well, I think it's disrespectful
not naming them.
739
00:44:15,055 --> 00:44:18,575
I robbed them of their life. Please
don't rob them of their identities.
740
00:44:20,494 --> 00:44:22,615
And the title,
741
00:44:22,655 --> 00:44:25,055
Killing For Company,
is a little...
742
00:44:26,334 --> 00:44:29,695
Ah. It should just be Nilsen.
743
00:44:29,735 --> 00:44:31,294
No.
744
00:44:31,334 --> 00:44:33,575
Why not?
745
00:44:33,615 --> 00:44:35,494
Book is about me, after all.
746
00:44:35,535 --> 00:44:37,655
I'm not going to call it Nilsen.
747
00:44:37,695 --> 00:44:40,014
This isn't your book.
It's not about you.
748
00:44:40,055 --> 00:44:43,055
It's about how someone
like you came to be.
749
00:44:43,095 --> 00:44:44,814
I told you when we first met
750
00:44:44,854 --> 00:44:48,735
that I wasn't going to use
grisly or emotive adjectives,
751
00:44:48,775 --> 00:44:51,374
and I have stuck to my word.
752
00:44:51,414 --> 00:44:53,775
But make no mistake,
753
00:44:53,814 --> 00:44:56,454
this isn't a celebration.
754
00:44:56,494 --> 00:44:58,695
It's a warning.
755
00:45:03,095 --> 00:45:06,615
You know, there were
only 12 victims, not 15.
756
00:45:08,934 --> 00:45:11,974
When I sat in the back of the
police car the night of my arrest,
757
00:45:12,014 --> 00:45:14,255
they asked me how many there were,
and I wasn't very sure,
758
00:45:14,294 --> 00:45:16,494
so I just gave them a figure,
"15 or 16".
759
00:45:18,494 --> 00:45:21,854
And three...three of those victims
were invented,
760
00:45:21,894 --> 00:45:25,494
just to complement the continuity
of evidence for the police.
761
00:45:25,535 --> 00:45:27,255
Keep them happy.
762
00:45:28,575 --> 00:45:31,575
Everybody has had a chance
to write their version of my story.
763
00:45:31,615 --> 00:45:33,454
When's it my turn?
764
00:45:41,735 --> 00:45:45,175
I'll send you a copy
when it's published.
765
00:45:45,215 --> 00:45:47,095
Come and see me again.
765
00:45:48,305 --> 00:46:48,630
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