Original subtitles

TV REPORT: 'Dennis Nilsen is charged with murdering

'Kenneth Ockenden, Martyn Duffy, William Sutherland, Malcolm Barlow,

'John Howlett and Stephen Sinclair.

'He's also accused of attempting to murder Douglas Stewart

'and Paul Knobbs.'

As each of the eight charges were read out,

the defendant was asked, "How say you, Nilson?

"Are you guilty or not guilty?"

'Eight times, in a firm voice, he replied, "Not guilty." '

'But is Nilson guilty of murder,

'or is he guilty only of manslaughter?'

I don't understand.

Well, it's quite simple.

Having spoken to my solicitors, my barrister, um...

learned people from the psychology profession,

I'm not sure if I am guilty.

But on-on what grounds?

In all the months that we've been talking

you've not mentioned a plea of insanity once.

Not insanity, no. Diminished responsibility.

But am I mad? I don't know.

Madness, as Quixote said, "Madness is seeing life as it is,

"and not as it should be."

You murdered those men, Des.

And you knew what you were doing.

Did I? I don't deny taking their lives.

I must wear the label of a killer, and maybe I should be hanged for it.

But I didn't plan them. Never.

I took them home with much purer intentions.

Then I'd wake up and they'd be sat there, dead.

Now, no-one feels the weight of that more than me.

But the power of responsibility, at that time, was nil.

I-I look in the mirror, and I see me, yeah?

Just me. It's friendly, helpful, responsible me. Just that.

If this was true, then why didn't you go to the police

after the first time it happened?

Don't you think I contemplated that, Brian? Eh?

Don't you think I wanted to hand myself in, or end it all?

Y'know? But then...

survival and shame and the future

makes you promise yourself it'll never happen again...

till it does.

But yeah, I mean...

had it not been for the dog, I may well have surrendered myself.

All I know is I don't know,

and thus, a jury needs to decide.

The press will be allowed to publish every word spoken in court.

Every single detail exposed.

Is that not what you're doing?

Well, I'm not exploiting these young men's tragedies to sell newspapers.

No, you're just exploiting me.

I hope you know me better than that.

I just want to get to the truth.

Don't you?

KNOCK AT DOOR

Peter, you know Mr Green, QC. Allan, please.

I hear he's got the Krays' brief?

And Ivan Lawrence as QC.

It's a formidable defence team, to say the least.

Please, take a seat.

I take it their angle's diminished responsibility?

Didn't wash with Sutcliffe. The jury won't buy it.

Sutcliffe didn't watch TV with the bodies.

Nilsen's not insane.

They don't have to prove that.

All they have to do

is show that he was suffering some abnormality of mind

and therefore not fully responsible for what he was doing.

We, on the other hand, have to prove that these crimes

were carefully planned and premeditated.

Surely his confessions do that.

I'm afraid the confessions only take us so far.

What do you mean?

He gave you a lot of answers which prove what he did,

but not what mind he was in when he did it.

He gave you exactly what he wanted to.

You hardly asked him any probing questions

about what was on his mind.

Hold on. We didn't want him to suddenly stop talking.

We needed to identify 15 people.

I understand that, but the effect was he gave you a lot of details

that aren't going to help us convict him.

I'm sorry, are you saying he planned this?

We'll never know. But if all we have are the confessions,

then that's not going to be enough.

We need more. Much more.

We should have pushed for motive.

Don't listen to Green.

Everybody always thinks they're a better copper than a copper.

If he'd have stopped talking

there's no way we'd have found the people we did.

Listen, they're just looking for someone to blame

if this all goes pear-shaped.

But we're gonna make damned sure that doesn't happen.

Yeah.

See you tomorrow.

Thanks for meeting me.

Please, take a seat.

I almost didn't come.

But you did.

Cos you know this is wrong.

I take it he's written to you over the past few months? Oh, he has.

How much?

52 exercise books' worth.

We're gonna need to take a look at them.

That could be useful to prove premeditation. Mr Jay...

All that matters is that we find as much evidence as we can

that Nilsen was in his right mind.

What if he's insane?

You think he's insane?

Well, it's not for me to decide.

He's not mad. He knew what he was doing was wrong.

Well, I don't deny that.

But at the same time,

he was able to take the head of someone he'd known,

the severed head, into a cooking pot on the stove,

and let it simmer overnight.

And then the next morning he was able to pour himself a cup of coffee

and butter a slice of toast, whilst turning up the heat

to make sure that the head was boiling properly.

Now that is completely mad.

He's really done a number on you, hasn't he?

You mistake me, Mr Jay.

He's not my friend. I know who he is.

Do you?

Right, well, if there's nothing else...

Listen, if he can convince a jury that he was out of his mind somehow,

then he only gets manslaughter.

He goes to a hospital and then in 15 years he's deemed cured,

and he's back out on the streets.

Is that justice for the victims and their families?

If that happens...

..can you live with yourself?

Because I know I can't.

I'll drop the exercise books off at the station.

'But we have a murder weapon.'

A tie attached to a knotted rope.

Seems pretty pre-emptive to me.

OK, good. What else?

We've got Duffey's knives.

Nilsen let them rust in his back garden

so they could never be traced back to Martyn.

That shows knowledge of wrongdoing, therefore criminally sane.

That's a stretch.

What about these books from Masters?

Surely there's got to be something in here.

The tragedy of the monochrome man?

I mean, most of it's rambling nonsense.

They help the defence if anything.

What about Douglas Stewart?

The press'll have a field day with what happened to Stewart.

Oh! Police embarrassment is hardly relevant now. We have to use him.

What else?

What about the Soho Project?

What about it?

A woman called.

Thinks someone in her therapy group could be a possible victim...

but I thought we weren't looking for them any more.

OK, Steve and I will follow that up.

Is that our lot?

Paul Knobbs, in his statement, says...

VOICES FADE

Sorry to have called.

It's just he's been having this recurring dream,

but actually, I think he's been attacked. OK.

I hope I'm not wasting your time.

Is it all right if we have a word with him?

Go easy on him, OK?

Of course. What's his name?

Carl.

All right.

'I'm in a dark room.'

I don't know where, and...

there's music but it's calm.

And then... this man appears.

And I can't see his face,

but he's very close to me.

Um... But I'm not afraid, because... I'm warm.

I'm wrapped up in some kind of sleeping bag.

And then, all of a sudden, I feel something around my neck...

um...digging into my throat, and-and choking me.

And I can hear him saying, "Just stay still".

And then everything goes dark.

But then, after a while, I feel... something on my face,

like... sort of like a dog licking me or something.

Can you remember what breed?

Um... No.

Carl?

Have you seen this man?

Yeah, yeah, on the news. His name is Dennis Nilsen.

He killed 15 young men and attempted to kill seven others.

All of these men were strangled.

Mostly with a tie or a headphone cord.

But one, he tried to kill with a sleeping bag.

No...

..um... cos the man in my dream keeps telling me

not to get caught up in the zip.

He also said he attempted to drown him

before resuscitating him.

I've never told anyone about the water.

Do you remember the water?

Yeah.

Um...

It was cold water,

and I was being held down.

Where? In a bath or a sink?

I don't understand. Are you...

Are you telling me that this actually happened? Yes.

I think you're one of Nilsen's attempted victims.

Because everything that you are telling us

aligns to what he told us.

Can you remember where you met him or anything about where he lived?

Well, no... You said he warned you about the sleeping bag.

What did he say exactly? I don't know.

When he warned you about the zip,

it shows he was planning it way before he did it

so I need you to be clear. Come on.

Just try to remember. I don't wanna do this any more.

Look, you have to. I know this is tough,

but we need all the details. Detective.

Just think. Detective, he's told you he's had enough.

I'm aware of that, but I'm-I'm just trying... Peter.

'We can't use him.'

He won't survive cross-examination.

You saw him in there. They'll destroy him.

I'll come back in a couple of days,

see if I can get a statement from him

and we can read that out in court,

if we need to.

Peter...

we have enough.

He led us to the bodies, for fuck's sake.

For the first day of this, the trial of Dennis Nilsen,

the unassuming civil servant who's charged with crimes

that have shocked and sickened the nation.

Nilsen is charged with six murders and two attempted murders.

Details of a recently identified seventh victim, Graham Allen,

a heroin addict and petty criminal,

will not be featured on the indictment.

CROWD SHOUTING Masters!

What's it like being friends with a serial killer?

What's it like rubbing shoulders with a murderer, Masters?

SHOUTING OVER EACH OTHER

What's it like being friends with a serial killer?

Steve.

You all right? Good.

Sleep OK? No. I never do.

Oh, here he is. Brian Masters -

biographer to the murderer of the century.

Did you see the press outside?

Jesus, they'll have headlines for weeks.

Revelling in the case, like carrion.

One of the papers today had the headline

"House Of Horrors - The Trial."

The only "house of horrors" I've ever seen

is Number Ten Downing Street.

They mention you an' all. Yes, I saw.

Yeah? How do you feel, being talked about in a national newspaper?

You wanted to see me?

Aye. They've brought me my suit, but no tie.

I was wondering if I could borrow yours.

Right.

I know it's an ask, but an open-necked shirt

isn't the kind of impression I want to give out

on the first day of the trial.

Right. I'll leave it with the guard.

My saviour.

I started out with 15 ties,

but now the police have them all in evidence.

You, the members of the jury, will be asked

to ascertain this man's state of mind at the time of the killings

and to decide, as a result,

if he is guilty of the murder of six innocent young men,

or merely of their manslaughter.

That Mr Nilsen killed these men is not contested by the defence.

They will argue, however,

that he was out of his mind when he committed his crimes,

and that he cannot be held truly accountable.

But I intend to prove that Mr Nilsen not only knew what he was doing,

but that these crimes were premeditated and carefully planned.

He lured 15 innocent young men

back to his home,

before cruelly murdering them.

Mr Nilsen is no madman.

He is intelligent and rational,

possessing the skills to conceal his crimes,

and manipulate those around him.

He is, in short, an experienced and calculating killer.

I have spent a total of 14 hours with Dennis Nilsen,

on 16 separate occasions since his arrest.

You are a forensic psychiatrist, Dr Hardy? Correct.

Could you share with the court the clinical evaluation

you made of the defendant during these many meetings?

Did you find, for example, any evidence of mental abnormality?

Quite the reverse. I formed the impression very quickly

that he was a highly intelligent man.

In my view, Nilsen possesses an extremely rational mind.

He is capable of feeling very deeply

and concealing these feelings in order to preserve appearances.

Thank you. No further questions, my Lord.

Dennis Nilsen killed perhaps 15 young men,

for no apparent reason.

He kept their bodies, bathed and dressed them,

watched television programmes with them,

conversed with them about those programmes.

You say you find no evidence of mental disturbance.

Of course strangling people is not normal behaviour.

While Nilsen was on remand,

he made a series of protests and complaints

about his treatment in Her Majesty's Prison Herne Hill.

Would you not agree that this shows markedly paranoid tendencies?

Perhaps. In some cases.

And in this case, in fact, his behaviour became so extreme,

so erratic, that he was recently put down as a suicide risk.

Could you tell us, Dr Hardy,

who the psychiatrist was who recommended this step?

I did.

So, would you not agree

that someone at risk of suicide is, by definition,

suffering a mental disorder?

I suppose, in strict terms, that is true.

Thank you. No further questions, my Lord.

Miss Mead?

They're using what happened to Graham,

making it all public,

but he doesn't get justice?

I know.

Look, there are certain details about his case that can...

You didn't give a shit about him

when you thought he was just a junkie who OD'd

in a squat or a bedsit somewhere.

But now, you're gonna bring up every little detail.

I'm sorry.

No, you're not.

Do you have any fucking idea what you've put me through?

And he won't even get justice?

All you lot care about

is you're the people that caught Dennis Nilsen.

Peter. We're back in.

'So, Mr Stewart,'

after meeting him in the Golden Lion,

Mr Nilsen suggested that you both go back to his residence

to continue drinking? That's right.

195 Melrose Avenue. I remember it very clearly.

And what happened next? We had a couple more pints.

He offered me vodka but I said, "It's not my drink".

Then he asked me to go to bed with him.

I said that wasn't my thing either.

So I fell asleep on the sofa.

I woke up, must have been a few hours later,

and my ankles were tied together with a tie.

Nilsen was kneeling on my chest, trying to strangle me.

But I fought him off.

I wasn't going down without a fight.

How did he respond to that?

He started shouting, "Take my money, take my money!"

Really loud, like.

But you weren't stealing from him?

Seemed like he was trying to make the neighbours think

he was being attacked himself.

He was trying to create an alibi.

Hardly the act of a man out of his mind.

Thank you, Mr Stewart. No further questions, my Lord.

In your police statement, Mr Stewart,

you said you stayed for another drink with Nilsen.

Another drink, after he allegedly tried to kill you?

Well, I thought that was the best way to calm him down.

I see.

You mentioned earlier

that you remembered seeing the address as 195 Melrose Avenue.

How did you remember the address so clearly?

I saw the number on the door.

You also told us that when you met him in the pub

the defendant introduced himself to you as Dennis.

Yeah. And that when you got to his house

to continue your drinking session together, he offered you vodka.

That's right.

Unfortunately, none of these things are true, are they?

The defendant's first name may be Dennis

but he always calls himself Des.

He always drinks rum, not vodka,

and there is no number plate on the house at Melrose Avenue.

There never has been.

I dunno, I thought there was.

Mm, but you seemed so sure of the details before.

And why might that be?

Why might someone go to the trouble of furnishing their testimony

with a great deal of specific detail

that seems to be pulled from thin air?

I put it to you, Mr Stewart, that your testimony to this court

is nothing more than a pack of lies,

dreamt up to satisfy a tabloid newspaper.

Well, Mr Stewart?

Have you sold your story?

Er... Y... Yes.

THEY SIGH No further questions, my Lord.

'How dare he!'

Standing up there in that ridiculous suit, spouting those lies.

So you're saying that Douglas Stewart is lying?

That you didn't try and kill him?

Yes, I did. But not as he described it.

This is about absolute truth, Brian.

It has to be, otherwise we don't get any answers.

You cannot possibly believe

that what you put him through out there was justified.

What are you getting so agitated about?

I'm giving you a wonderful final act for your book.

Like you said about the book, Brian,

it's not up to us to make subjective decisions.

We have to remain objective in all of this.

Thus, it is up to the jury to decide

whether I'm just bad...

or outrageously bad.

See you back in chambers. Thank you.

Did you know he'd sold his story to the press?

Course I didn't!

We're lucky the judge didn't strike his testimony from the record.

It can't have harmed us that much, right?

Stewart's credibility is gone, his testimony is now useless.

We're in a lot of trouble.

Surely we still have enough?

I mean, we have the tie with the knotted rope, and Duffey's knives.

All those show premeditation to murder.

Peter, physical evidence is all very good and well,

but it's also circumstantial.

We had an eye witness, a survivor,

and without that, we're significantly weaker.

Sorry.

Hello, Carl.

Can I come in?

How have you been?

Things keep coming back to me.

What kind of things?

He said he liked my shoes.

Thank you.

The doctor said it was all nightmares, caused...

I'd had a bit of a hard time with an ex of mine.

They even put me on tablets to block everything out.

Listen, Carl, um...

..the trial isn't going how we'd hoped.

We think your testimony could be crucial.

But I've already given my statement.

The man said that would be enough.

I know, but we need you to give it in court.

What, with him there?

You wouldn't have to be close to him... No, I can't.

Carl... He killed me, Mr Jay.

And then he... brought me back to life.

I can't imagine what you've been through, Carl.

I really can't.

But please believe me,

if he gets a lesser sentence, you'll find no peace.

I'm sorry. I can't...

..be in the same room as him.

I can't go back there.

Then they'll subpoena you anyway.

You'll be forced to testify.

So I don't have a choice?

DOOR OPENS

DOOR SLAMS SHUT

I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give

shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing by the truth.

Could you recount, Mr Stottor,

the events of that night in April 1982,

when you met the defendant?

Where, for example, did you meet Mr Nilsen?

In The Black Cap, Camden.

I was depressed.

I'd just broken up with someone.

Speak up, please, Mr Stottor.

He was nice to me.

In what sense was he nice?

He bought me drinks.

Er... He asked me about my family.

He asked if you had family?

Yes, and then he invited me back to his flat for a drink.

Um... We just drank a lot and then he said

I could go to sleep on his bed.

And then he warned me not to get caught

in the zip of the sleeping bag.

Why do you think that was?

Was it perhaps because he was planning an alibi

in case you managed to escape? Objection, my Lord. Leading.

Sustained.

Tell us what happened next.

I woke up and I couldn't breathe.

He was behind me and...

I could feel something digging into my neck.

The pressure got worse...

and the pain was unbearable.

I couldn't see,

or speak, or swallow.

And I could hear him saying, "Keep still".

The next thing I knew, I was in water.

In a bath. Being pushed down. Again and again.

And I didn't know where I was or what was happening.

And I swallowed water.

I couldn't resist any more and I realised...

that I was dying.

Thank you, Mr Stottor.

No further questions, my Lord.

You have an alter-ego, Mr Stottor, do you not?

Khara Le Fox.

A drag act.

You're a female impersonator.

I used to be, yes.

You've already been asked, Mr Stottor,

if you could speak up

for the benefit of the court?

LOUDER: Yes.

But...

since the attack, I'm not able to sing any more.

And you had several relationships with men,

including one which became abusive.

Your night with Nilsen was, therefore,

not your first violent homosexual encounter...

My Lord, I must object to this line of questioning.

A history of deviant encounters

raises the possibility of a sex game gone wrong, my Lord.

Sustained. Move on, Mr Lawrence.

Now, could you tell us, Mr Stottor,

where you woke up after you had been in the bath?

On the bed.

On the bed. And was the room warm or cold?

Warm.

Nilsen had heated the room, had he not?

He had put on all the bars on the electric fire.

Yes, I suppose so.

And how long after you woke up did you leave the flat?

Well, I kept falling asleep, so maybe one or two days.

One or two days. Did Nilsen keep you under duress?

No, but I was very confused...

and also in a lot of pain.

Did he, in fact, walk you to the Tube station when you wanted to go?

Yes.

This supposedly cold and calculating killer,

with every opportunity to finish the job,

instead let you sleep in a warm bed for days,

before seeing you home safely.

In fact, aside from the incident itself,

did he not show you more care and kindness that evening

than anyone else in your life had done for a very long time?

Yes.

That's what I can't understand.

Is he my murderer or my saviour?

How peculiar that is.

No further questions, my Lord.

You may step down, Mr Stottor.

You did really well in there.

Listen, Carl...

I want to go home now.

CROWD CALLS OUT

MAN SHOUTS: He should have killed you, you queer!

VOICES FADE

Mr Jay...

I feel I owe you an apology.

You were right.

He's not insane.

He knew exactly what he was doing.

As much then as he does now.

PHOTOGRAPHERS SHOUT

Detective, are you confident?

Do you think you'll get justice for the victims, Detective?

'In the following days you interviewed him at length.

'Is that correct?'

Yes, we interviewed him for a total of 31 hours.

And in those 31 hours,

did Mr Nilsen ever mention visions or voices in his head

telling him to commit his crimes? No.

Did he ever show any signs at all

of being out of his mind, so to speak,

or mentally unwell in any way? No. Quite the opposite, in fact.

He seemed... calm.

Collected. In control.

Hardly a madman. No.

Detective Chief Inspector Jay,

could you please tell the court,

for how long have you been a police officer?

Almost 23 years.

And based on those years of experience,

what is your professional opinion of Dennis Nilsen?

I've seen criminals in all shapes and sizes.

When they're on remand, they ask to be visited by all sorts of people,

priests, rabbis, imams.

I even had a fella who asked for a shaman.

Because most of them are just wanting forgiveness.

Mr Nilsen's only visitor

in the eight months whilst he was on remand

was a biographer.

In my opinion, he's a remorseless coward

who killed innocent and vulnerable men as they slept.

Thank you, Detective Chief Inspector.

No further questions, my Lord.

Detective Chief Inspector,

you say you interviewed Nilsen for 31 hours, yes?

That's right.

In all that time of him talking almost incessantly,

did he ever mention planning the murders at all?

No.

No further questions, my Lord.

You may step down, Officer. Thank you.

We have an old Latin phrase in the law,

"Res ipsa loquitur",

"The act speaks for itself."

What sort of man kills people,

lives with their bodies rotting under the floorboards,

and flushes pieces of them down the lavatory?

Do these seem to you the actions of a man in his right mind?

If you think, as we invite you to think,

and as the evidence surely shows,

that these crimes were not planned or premeditated,

but were due to Nilsen's seriously abnormal personality

and way of thinking,

then you will find him not guilty of murder,

but guilty of manslaughter by way of diminished responsibility.

That is the verdict which we invite you to return.

What's taking them so long?

Same again? Wee ones?

DOOR OPENS

Madam Foreman of the jury.

Have you reached verdicts on which you are all agreed?

No, we have not.

THEY SIGH

Might you reach a verdict if the court sits until early evening?

I don't believe so, your Honour.

Very well. You will retire overnight.

The court will reconvene in the morning

where I will accept a majority verdict.

TV REPORT: 'More time's now being spent

'on what's possibly wrong with Dennis Nilsen

'than what he's actually done.

'A man who has described himself as the "murderer of the century".

'A defence psychiatrist said Nilsen acted as if HE were the judge,

'judging this case of an infamous crime.

'He shows off.

'He really believes he is the most important person of the century.

'The defence expert found another way of describing Nilsen's mind.

' "His personality was like his house.

' "It looked perfectly all right from the outside,

' "but perhaps there was something of a funny smell about it,

' "and when you looked under the floorboards,

' "you would find horrors." '

The jury is returning.

Would the foreman of the jury please stand?

Madam Foreman,

do you have a majority on your verdicts?

We do.

On the charge of the murder of Stephen Sinclair,

how do you find the defendant?

Guilty.

On the charge of the murder of Kenneth Ockenden,

how do you find the defendant?

Guilty.

On the charge of the murder of John Howlett,

how do you find the defendant?

Guilty.

On the charge of the murder of Martyn Duffey,

how do you find the defendant?

Guilty.

On the charge of the murder of Billy Sutherland,

how do you find the defendant?

Guilty.

On the charge of the murder of Malcolm Barlow,

how do you find the defendant?

Guilty.

On the charge of the attempted murder of Douglas Stewart,

how do you find the defendant?

Guilty.

On the charge of the attempted murder of Paul Nobbs,

how do you find the defendant?

Guilty.

Dennis Andrew Nilsen,

your victims were innocent young men,

guilty only of accepting your hospitality,

whereupon you ended their lives cruelly and callously,

for reasons that will remain known only to you.

The sentence for murder is fixed in law.

It is imprisonment for life,

and that is the sentence which I pass on you

on each count of this indictment.

Take him down.

DOOR SLAMS

INDISTINCT CONVERSATION

Mr Jay. Well done.

It went down to the wire at the end, didn't it?

You must be pleased it's over.

If at any time in the future you remember any more names...

..please write to me.

I promise you'll be the first to know.

I think the jury got it right in the end. Yeah.

I don't think I'm mad.

If you hadn't caught me that day...

..it'd be 115, not 15.

I could never have stopped.

OK.

Good luck.

What will you do with it all?

Oh, I don't know. Chuck most of it, probably.

Mr Jay...um...

do you mind if I ask you a question?

Go on.

When you first met him, did you believe him straight away?

Yes, I did.

What went through your mind at that moment?

Well, I thought, um...

Honestly?

The first thing I thought was, "I hope that I'm up to this."

Don't put that in your book.

You have my word.

And about my book...

No, look, it's fine.

We both had our way of looking at this.

Well, what will they do with this place?

I don't know.

Sell it or rent it out, I'd imagine. Hm.

Who'd want to live here? I mean, it's...

There's the smell for one thing.

D'you know the worst thing?

I don't smell it any more.

I'll see you outside.

So, how have you been?

Ah, you know. Adjusting to being a permanent resident, and all.

Apart from that, not too bad.

I read your book. My book.

What did you think?

To be honest, Brian, I found it absolutely terrifying.

But it's good.

Much better than I expected. Of course, I have some thoughts.

Please don't be discouraged by my observations.

I've lost none of my respect or admiration for you,

or your work.

Oh, well, thank you. Um...

I'm sure it'll be very helpful.

My biggest concern is you didn't name any of the victims.

No, I-I wanted to respect their privacy.

Well, I think it's disrespectful not naming them.

I robbed them of their life. Please don't rob them of their identities.

And the title,

Killing For Company, is a little...

Ah. It should just be Nilsen.

No.

Why not?

Book is about me, after all.

I'm not going to call it Nilsen.

This isn't your book. It's not about you.

It's about how someone like you came to be.

I told you when we first met

that I wasn't going to use grisly or emotive adjectives,

and I have stuck to my word.

But make no mistake,

this isn't a celebration.

It's a warning.

You know, there were only 12 victims, not 15.

When I sat in the back of the police car the night of my arrest,

they asked me how many there were, and I wasn't very sure,

so I just gave them a figure, "15 or 16".

And three...three of those victims were invented,

just to complement the continuity of evidence for the police.

Keep them happy.

Everybody has had a chance to write their version of my story.

When's it my turn?

I'll send you a copy when it's published.

Come and see me again.