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TV REPORT: Dennis Nilsen
is charged with murdering
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Kenneth Ockenden, Martyn Duffy,
William Sutherland, Malcolm Barlow,
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John Howlett and Stephen Sinclair.
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He's also accused of attempting
to murder Douglas Stewart
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and Paul Knobbs.
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As each of the eight
charges were read out,
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the defendant was asked,
"How say you, Nilson?
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"Are you guilty or not guilty?"
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Eight times, in a firm voice,
he replied, "Not guilty."
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But is Nilson guilty of murder,
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or is he guilty only of manslaughter?
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Synced & corrected by QueenMaddie
www.addic7ed.com
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I don't understand.
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Well, it's quite simple.
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Having spoken to my solicitors,
my barrister, um...
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learned people from the
psychology profession,
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I'm not sure if I am guilty.
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But on-on what grounds?
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In all the months
that we've been talking
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you've not mentioned a
plea of insanity once.
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Not insanity, no.
Diminished responsibility.
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But am I mad? I don't know.
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Madness, as Quixote said,
"Madness is seeing life as it is,
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"and not as it should be."
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You murdered those men, Des.
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And you knew what you were doing.
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Did I? I don't deny taking their lives.
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You know, I must wear
the label of a killer,
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and maybe I should be hanged for it.
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But I didn't plan them.
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Never.
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I took them home with
much purer intentions.
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Then I'd wake up and
they'd be sat there, dead.
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Now, no-one feels the
weight of that more than me.
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But the power of responsibility,
at that time, was nil.
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I-I look in the mirror,
and I see me, yeah?
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Just me. It's friendly, helpful,
responsible me. Just that.
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If this was true,
then why didn't you go to the police
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after the first time it happened?
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Don't you think I contemplated
that, Brian? Eh?
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Don't you think I wanted to
hand myself in, or end it all?
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Y'know? But then...
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survival and shame and the future
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makes you promise yourself
it'll never happen again...
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till it does.
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But yeah, I mean...
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had it not been for the dog,
I may well have surrendered myself.
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All I know is I don't know,
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and thus, a jury needs to decide.
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The press will be allowed to
publish every word spoken in court.
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Every single detail exposed.
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Is that not what you're doing?
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Well, I'm not exploiting
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these young men's tragedies
to sell newspapers.
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No, you're just exploiting me.
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I hope you know me better than that.
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I just want to get to the truth.
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Don't you?
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_
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[KNOCK AT DOOR]
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Peter, you know Mr Green, QC.
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Allan, please.
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I hear he's got the Krays' brief?
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And Ivan Lawrence as QC.
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It's a formidable defence team,
to say the least.
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Please, take a seat.
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I take it their angle's
diminished responsibility?
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- Didn't wash with Sutcliffe.
- The jury won't buy it.
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Sutcliffe didn't watch
TV with the bodies.
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Nilsen's not insane.
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They don't have to prove that.
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All they have to do
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is show that he was suffering
some abnormality of mind
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and therefore not fully
responsible for what he was doing.
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We, on the other hand,
have to prove that these crimes
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were carefully planned and premeditated.
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Surely his confessions do that.
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I'm afraid the confessions
only take us so far.
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What do you mean?
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He gave you a lot of answers
which prove what he did,
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but not what mind he
was in when he did it.
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He gave you exactly what he wanted to.
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You hardly asked him
any probing questions
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about what was on his mind.
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Hold on. We didn't want
him to suddenly stop talking.
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We needed to identify 15 people.
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00:04:09,951 --> 00:04:13,508
I understand that, but the effect
was he gave you a lot of details
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that aren't going to
help us convict him.
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I'm sorry,
are you saying he planned this?
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We'll never know.
But if all we have are the confessions,
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then that's not going to be enough.
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We need more. Much more.
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We should have pushed for motive.
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Don't listen to Green.
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Everybody always thinks they're
a better copper than a copper.
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If he'd have stopped talking
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there's no way we'd have
found the people we did.
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Listen, they're just looking
for someone to blame
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if this all goes pear-shaped.
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But we're gonna make damned
sure that doesn't happen.
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Yeah.
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See you tomorrow.
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Thanks for meeting me.
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Please, take a seat.
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I almost didn't come.
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But you did.
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Cos you know this is wrong.
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I take it he's written to you
over the past few months?
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Oh, he has.
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How much?
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52 exercise books' worth.
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We're gonna need to take a look at them.
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That could be useful to
prove premeditation.
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- Mr Jay...
- All that matters is that
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we find as much evidence as we can
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that Nilsen was in his right mind.
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What if he's insane?
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You think he's insane?
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Well, it's not for me to decide.
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He's not mad.
He knew what he was doing was wrong.
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Well, I don't deny that.
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But at the same time,
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he was able to take the
head of someone he'd known,
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the severed head,
into a cooking pot on the stove,
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and let it simmer overnight.
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And then the next morning,
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he was able to pour
himself a cup of coffee
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and butter a slice of toast,
whilst turning up the heat
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to make sure that
the head was boiling properly.
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Now that is completely mad.
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I mean...
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He's really done a number
on you, hasn't he?
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You mistake me, Mr Jay.
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He's not my friend. I know who he is.
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Do you?
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Right, well, if there's nothing else...
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Listen, if he can convince a jury
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that he was out of his mind somehow,
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then he only gets manslaughter.
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He goes to a hospital and then
in 15 years he's deemed cured,
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and he's back out on the streets.
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Is that justice for the
victims and their families?
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If that happens...
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can you live with yourself?
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Because I know I can't.
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I'll drop the exercise
books off at the station.
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But we have a murder weapon.
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A tie attached to a knotted rope.
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Seems pretty pre-emptive to me.
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Okay, good. What else?
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We've got Duffey's knives.
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Nilsen let them rust in his back garden
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so they could never be
traced back to Martyn.
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That shows knowledge of wrongdoing,
therefore criminally sane.
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That's a stretch.
156
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What about these books from Masters?
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Surely there's got to
be something in here.
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The tragedy of the monochrome man?
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I mean, most of it's rambling nonsense.
160
00:08:06,358 --> 00:08:08,319
They help the defence if anything.
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00:08:09,105 --> 00:08:10,596
What about Douglas Stewart?
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The press'll have a field day
with what happened to Stewart.
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Police embarrassment is
hardly relevant now.
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We have to use him. What else?
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What about the Soho Project?
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What about it?
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A woman called.
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Thinks someone in her therapy
group could be a possible victim...
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but I thought we weren't
looking for them any more.
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Okay, Steve and I will follow that up.
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Is that our lot?
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Paul Knobbs, in his statement, says...
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[VOICES FADE]
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Sorry to have called.
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It's just he's been having
this recurring dream,
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but actually,
I think he's been attacked.
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Okay.
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I hope I'm not wasting your time.
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00:09:01,733 --> 00:09:04,019
Is it all right if we
have a word with him?
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Go easy on him, okay?
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Of course. What's his name?
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Carl.
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All right.
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I'm in a dark room.
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I don't know where, and...
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there's music but it's calm.
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And then... this man appears.
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And I can't see his face,
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but he's very close to me.
190
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Um... But I'm not afraid, because...
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I'm warm.
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I'm wrapped up in some
kind of sleeping bag.
193
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And then, all of a sudden,
I feel something around my neck...
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digging into my throat,
and-and choking me.
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00:09:58,325 --> 00:10:01,973
And I can hear him saying,
"Just stay still".
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00:10:02,466 --> 00:10:04,812
And then everything goes dark.
197
00:10:05,247 --> 00:10:08,263
But then, after a while, I feel...
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00:10:09,435 --> 00:10:10,748
something on my face,
199
00:10:10,779 --> 00:10:15,652
like... sort of like a dog
licking me or something.
200
00:10:15,677 --> 00:10:17,613
Can you remember what breed?
201
00:10:18,692 --> 00:10:21,692
Um... No.
202
00:10:26,169 --> 00:10:27,930
Carl?
203
00:10:29,625 --> 00:10:31,505
Have you seen this man?
204
00:10:33,982 --> 00:10:38,052
- Yeah, yeah, on the news.
- His name is Dennis Nilsen.
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00:10:38,355 --> 00:10:41,982
He killed 15 young men and
attempted to kill seven others.
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All of these men were strangled.
207
00:10:45,332 --> 00:10:48,013
Mostly with a tie or a headphone cord.
208
00:10:48,919 --> 00:10:51,503
But one, he tried to kill
with a sleeping bag.
209
00:10:53,172 --> 00:10:54,452
No...
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00:10:58,325 --> 00:11:01,092
Cos the man in my dream keeps telling me
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00:11:01,117 --> 00:11:03,646
not to get caught up in the zip.
212
00:11:09,613 --> 00:11:12,654
He also said he attempted to drown him
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00:11:13,125 --> 00:11:15,466
before resuscitating him.
214
00:11:20,185 --> 00:11:22,435
I've never told anyone about the water.
215
00:11:23,582 --> 00:11:25,381
Do you remember the water?
216
00:11:25,527 --> 00:11:27,904
Yeah. Um...
217
00:11:29,074 --> 00:11:30,510
It was cold water,
218
00:11:30,543 --> 00:11:34,135
and I was being held down.
219
00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,214
Where? In a bath or a sink?
220
00:11:37,239 --> 00:11:39,759
I don't understand. Are you...
221
00:11:41,446 --> 00:11:43,636
Are you telling me that
this actually happened?
222
00:11:43,661 --> 00:11:44,863
Yes.
223
00:11:46,206 --> 00:11:48,853
I think you're one of
Nilsen's attempted victims.
224
00:11:49,542 --> 00:11:51,068
Because everything
that you are telling us
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aligns to what he told us.
226
00:11:53,237 --> 00:11:55,261
Can you remember where you met him or,
227
00:11:55,286 --> 00:11:57,033
anything about where he lived?
228
00:11:57,058 --> 00:11:58,261
Well, no...
229
00:11:58,286 --> 00:12:00,065
You said he warned you
about the sleeping bag.
230
00:12:00,089 --> 00:12:02,931
- What did he say exactly?
- I don't know.
231
00:12:02,956 --> 00:12:04,029
When he warned you about the zip,
232
00:12:04,053 --> 00:12:06,064
it shows he was planning
it way before he did it
233
00:12:06,089 --> 00:12:08,096
so I need you to be clear. Come on.
234
00:12:08,121 --> 00:12:10,307
- Just try to remember.
- I don't wanna do this any more.
235
00:12:10,331 --> 00:12:12,463
Look, you have to. I know this is tough,
236
00:12:12,488 --> 00:12:13,854
- but we need all the details.
- Detective.
237
00:12:13,878 --> 00:12:15,285
- Just think.
- Detective,
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00:12:15,310 --> 00:12:16,362
he's told you he's had enough.
239
00:12:16,386 --> 00:12:17,456
I'm aware of that, but
240
00:12:17,481 --> 00:12:19,597
- we are, I'm-I'm just trying...
- Peter.
241
00:12:24,730 --> 00:12:25,955
We can't use him.
242
00:12:25,980 --> 00:12:27,884
He won't survive cross-examination.
243
00:12:27,909 --> 00:12:30,733
You saw him in there.
They'll destroy him.
244
00:12:32,464 --> 00:12:33,908
I'll come back in a couple of days,
245
00:12:33,933 --> 00:12:35,533
see if I can get a statement from him
246
00:12:35,572 --> 00:12:37,134
and we can read that out in court,
247
00:12:37,159 --> 00:12:38,733
if we need to.
248
00:12:39,282 --> 00:12:41,495
Peter... we have enough.
249
00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:43,933
And he led us to the bodies,
for fuck's sake.
250
00:12:52,561 --> 00:12:55,464
For the first day of this,
the trial of Dennis Nilsen,
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00:12:55,496 --> 00:12:58,503
the unassuming civil servant
who's charged with crimes
252
00:12:58,528 --> 00:13:01,222
that have shocked
and sickened the nation.
253
00:13:01,405 --> 00:13:05,228
Nilsen is charged with six murders
and two attempted murders.
254
00:13:05,542 --> 00:13:09,013
Details of a recently identified
seventh victim, Graham Allen,
255
00:13:09,038 --> 00:13:11,073
a heroin addict and petty criminal,
256
00:13:11,098 --> 00:13:13,776
will not be featured on the indictment.
257
00:13:14,332 --> 00:13:16,939
- [CROWD SHOUTING]
- Masters!
258
00:13:16,964 --> 00:13:19,519
What's it like being friends
with a serial killer?
259
00:13:20,386 --> 00:13:23,275
What's it like rubbing shoulders
with a murderer, Masters?
260
00:13:23,300 --> 00:13:26,065
[SHOUTING OVER EACH OTHER]
261
00:13:26,090 --> 00:13:28,995
What's it like being friends
with a serial killer?
262
00:13:49,324 --> 00:13:50,620
Steve.
263
00:13:51,409 --> 00:13:52,847
You all right?
264
00:13:52,872 --> 00:13:53,872
Good.
265
00:13:54,663 --> 00:13:57,303
- Sleep okay?
- No. I never do.
266
00:14:09,241 --> 00:14:11,405
Oh, here he is. Brian Masters,
267
00:14:11,430 --> 00:14:13,790
biographer to the
murderer of the century.
268
00:14:13,815 --> 00:14:15,536
Did you see the press outside?
269
00:14:15,561 --> 00:14:17,663
Jesus, they'll have headlines for weeks.
270
00:14:17,688 --> 00:14:19,741
Revelling in the case, like carrion.
271
00:14:19,766 --> 00:14:21,999
One of the papers today had the headline
272
00:14:22,024 --> 00:14:24,311
"House Of Horrors - The Trial."
273
00:14:24,336 --> 00:14:25,710
The only "house of
horrors" I've ever seen
274
00:14:25,734 --> 00:14:27,134
is Number Ten Downing Street.
275
00:14:27,867 --> 00:14:30,358
- They mention you an' all.
- Yes, I saw.
276
00:14:30,383 --> 00:14:34,184
Yeah? How do you feel, being
talked about in a national newspaper?
277
00:14:34,976 --> 00:14:36,859
You wanted to see me?
278
00:14:37,412 --> 00:14:39,853
Aye. They've brought me my suit,
but no tie.
279
00:14:40,187 --> 00:14:42,249
I was wondering if I could borrow yours.
280
00:14:44,692 --> 00:14:45,929
Right.
281
00:14:45,954 --> 00:14:48,507
I know it's an ask,
but an open-necked shirt
282
00:14:48,532 --> 00:14:51,124
isn't the kind of impression
I want to give out
283
00:14:51,149 --> 00:14:52,921
on the first day of the trial.
284
00:14:56,363 --> 00:14:58,387
Right. I'll leave it with the guard.
285
00:14:58,412 --> 00:15:00,292
My saviour.
286
00:15:00,482 --> 00:15:02,212
I started out with 15 ties,
287
00:15:02,237 --> 00:15:04,333
but now the police have
them all in evidence.
288
00:15:07,491 --> 00:15:09,841
You, the members of the jury,
will be asked
289
00:15:09,866 --> 00:15:13,552
to ascertain this man's state of
mind at the time of the killings
290
00:15:13,577 --> 00:15:15,988
and to decide, as a result,
291
00:15:16,013 --> 00:15:20,419
if he is guilty of the murder
of six innocent young men,
292
00:15:20,444 --> 00:15:23,412
or merely of their manslaughter.
293
00:15:23,566 --> 00:15:27,879
That Mr Nilsen killed these men
is not contested by the defence.
294
00:15:27,904 --> 00:15:29,466
They will argue, however,
295
00:15:29,491 --> 00:15:33,787
that he was out of his mind
when he committed his crimes,
296
00:15:33,812 --> 00:15:36,724
and that he cannot be
held truly accountable.
297
00:15:36,749 --> 00:15:39,526
But I intend to prove that
Mr Nilsen not only
298
00:15:39,551 --> 00:15:41,206
knew what he was doing,
299
00:15:41,237 --> 00:15:45,757
but that these crimes were
premeditated and carefully planned.
300
00:15:46,166 --> 00:15:50,009
He lured 15 innocent young men
301
00:15:50,034 --> 00:15:51,722
back to his home,
302
00:15:51,747 --> 00:15:54,667
before cruelly murdering them.
303
00:15:55,193 --> 00:15:57,674
Mr Nilsen is no madman.
304
00:15:57,699 --> 00:16:00,339
He is intelligent and rational,
305
00:16:00,371 --> 00:16:03,450
possessing the skills
to conceal his crimes,
306
00:16:03,748 --> 00:16:06,222
and manipulate those around him.
307
00:16:06,441 --> 00:16:12,082
He is, in short, an experienced
and calculating killer.
308
00:16:13,206 --> 00:16:17,019
I have spent a total of 14
hours with Dennis Nilsen,
309
00:16:17,044 --> 00:16:20,204
on 16 separate occasions
since his arrest.
310
00:16:20,229 --> 00:16:22,635
You are a forensic psychiatrist,
Dr Hardy?
311
00:16:22,660 --> 00:16:23,836
- Correct.
- Could you share
312
00:16:23,861 --> 00:16:25,758
with the court the clinical evaluation
313
00:16:25,783 --> 00:16:28,196
you made of the defendant
during these many meetings?
314
00:16:28,221 --> 00:16:31,900
Did you find, for example,
any evidence of mental abnormality?
315
00:16:31,925 --> 00:16:34,017
Quite the reverse.
I formed the impression very quickly
316
00:16:34,041 --> 00:16:35,664
that he was a highly intelligent man.
317
00:16:35,689 --> 00:16:39,672
In my view, Nilsen possesses
an extremely rational mind.
318
00:16:39,697 --> 00:16:42,211
He is capable of feeling very deeply
319
00:16:42,236 --> 00:16:46,108
and concealing these feelings in
order to preserve appearances.
320
00:16:46,258 --> 00:16:49,013
Thank you.
No further questions, my Lord.
321
00:16:51,394 --> 00:16:55,362
Dennis Nilsen killed
perhaps 15 young men,
322
00:16:55,387 --> 00:16:57,278
for no apparent reason.
323
00:16:57,303 --> 00:17:00,098
He kept their bodies,
bathed and dressed them,
324
00:17:00,123 --> 00:17:02,004
watched television programmes with them,
325
00:17:02,029 --> 00:17:05,110
conversed with them
about those programmes.
326
00:17:05,135 --> 00:17:09,254
You say you find no evidence
of mental disturbance.
327
00:17:09,707 --> 00:17:13,481
Of course strangling people
is not normal behaviour.
328
00:17:13,506 --> 00:17:16,489
While Nilsen was on remand,
329
00:17:16,514 --> 00:17:20,973
he made a series of
protests and complaints
330
00:17:20,998 --> 00:17:24,867
about his treatment in
Her Majesty's Prison Herne Hill.
331
00:17:24,892 --> 00:17:26,871
Would you not agree that this shows
332
00:17:26,896 --> 00:17:29,551
markedly paranoid tendencies?
333
00:17:29,751 --> 00:17:32,145
Perhaps. In some cases.
334
00:17:32,170 --> 00:17:35,748
And in this case, in fact,
his behaviour became so extreme,
335
00:17:35,773 --> 00:17:41,524
so erratic, that he was recently
put down as a suicide risk.
336
00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:43,499
Could you tell us, Dr Hardy,
337
00:17:43,524 --> 00:17:46,422
who the psychiatrist was
who recommended this step?
338
00:17:48,324 --> 00:17:49,428
I did.
339
00:17:49,453 --> 00:17:51,475
So, would you not agree
340
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:54,313
that someone at risk of suicide is,
by definition,
341
00:17:54,338 --> 00:17:56,852
suffering a mental disorder?
342
00:17:57,863 --> 00:18:02,266
I suppose, in strict terms,
that is true.
343
00:18:02,291 --> 00:18:04,730
Thank you.
No further questions, my Lord.
344
00:18:26,483 --> 00:18:27,884
Miss Mead?
345
00:18:29,103 --> 00:18:31,343
They're using what happened to Graham,
346
00:18:31,647 --> 00:18:33,625
making it all public,
347
00:18:33,794 --> 00:18:35,828
but he doesn't get justice?
348
00:18:36,852 --> 00:18:38,391
I know.
349
00:18:38,919 --> 00:18:42,439
Look, there are certain details
about his case that can...
350
00:18:42,464 --> 00:18:43,852
You didn't give a shit about him
351
00:18:43,877 --> 00:18:46,000
when you thought he was
just a junkie who OD'd
352
00:18:46,025 --> 00:18:48,144
in a squat or a bedsit somewhere.
353
00:18:48,169 --> 00:18:51,969
But now, you're gonna
bring up every little detail.
354
00:18:54,896 --> 00:18:56,416
I'm sorry.
355
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:00,801
No, you're not.
356
00:19:01,962 --> 00:19:05,203
Do you have any fucking idea
what you've put me through?
357
00:19:06,584 --> 00:19:09,039
And he won't even get justice?
358
00:19:11,883 --> 00:19:14,141
All you lot care about
359
00:19:14,490 --> 00:19:17,930
is you're the people that
caught Dennis Nilsen.
360
00:19:21,423 --> 00:19:24,236
Peter. We're back in.
361
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:38,502
So, Mr Stewart,
362
00:19:38,527 --> 00:19:40,527
after meeting him in the Golden Lion,
363
00:19:40,552 --> 00:19:43,525
Mr Nilsen suggested that you
both go back to his residence
364
00:19:43,550 --> 00:19:45,924
- to continue drinking?
- That's right.
365
00:19:45,949 --> 00:19:49,642
195 Melrose Avenue.
I remember it very clearly.
366
00:19:49,667 --> 00:19:52,767
- And what happened next?
- We had a couple more pints.
367
00:19:52,792 --> 00:19:56,032
He offered me vodka but I said,
"It's not my drink".
368
00:19:56,736 --> 00:19:59,924
Then he asked me to go to bed with him.
369
00:19:59,949 --> 00:20:02,017
I said that wasn't my thing either.
370
00:20:02,042 --> 00:20:04,580
So I fell asleep on the sofa.
371
00:20:04,675 --> 00:20:08,174
I woke up, must have
been a few hours later,
372
00:20:08,199 --> 00:20:11,878
and my ankles were
tied together with a tie.
373
00:20:12,201 --> 00:20:15,447
Nilsen was kneeling on my chest,
trying to strangle me.
374
00:20:15,472 --> 00:20:16,791
But I fought him off.
375
00:20:16,816 --> 00:20:18,572
I wasn't going down without a fight.
376
00:20:18,597 --> 00:20:20,314
How did he respond to that?
377
00:20:20,806 --> 00:20:23,807
He started shouting,
"Take my money, take my money!"
378
00:20:23,832 --> 00:20:25,479
Really loud, like.
379
00:20:31,587 --> 00:20:34,369
But you weren't stealing from him?
380
00:20:34,394 --> 00:20:37,338
Seemed like he was trying
to make the neighbours think
381
00:20:37,363 --> 00:20:39,080
he was being attacked himself.
382
00:20:39,105 --> 00:20:41,787
He was trying to create an alibi.
383
00:20:41,812 --> 00:20:44,658
Hardly the act of a man out of his mind.
384
00:20:44,978 --> 00:20:47,549
Thank you, Mr Stewart.
No further questions, my Lord.
385
00:20:48,026 --> 00:20:51,197
In your police statement, Mr Stewart,
386
00:20:51,222 --> 00:20:55,174
you said you stayed for
another drink with Nilsen.
387
00:20:55,567 --> 00:20:59,168
Another drink,
after he allegedly tried to kill you?
388
00:20:59,536 --> 00:21:02,468
Well, I thought that was the
best way to calm him down.
389
00:21:02,493 --> 00:21:03,612
I see.
390
00:21:03,652 --> 00:21:04,736
You mentioned earlier
391
00:21:04,761 --> 00:21:08,801
that you remembered seeing
the address as 195 Melrose Avenue.
392
00:21:08,901 --> 00:21:11,205
How did you remember
the address so clearly?
393
00:21:11,386 --> 00:21:13,386
I saw the number on the door.
394
00:21:13,613 --> 00:21:16,971
You also told us that when
you met him in the pub
395
00:21:16,996 --> 00:21:20,047
the defendant introduced
himself to you as Dennis.
396
00:21:20,072 --> 00:21:22,018
- Yeah.
- And that when you got to his house
397
00:21:22,043 --> 00:21:25,494
to continue your drinking session
together, he offered you vodka.
398
00:21:25,827 --> 00:21:27,107
That's right.
399
00:21:27,132 --> 00:21:30,424
Unfortunately, none of
these things are true, are they?
400
00:21:30,449 --> 00:21:32,729
The defendant's first name may be Dennis
401
00:21:32,754 --> 00:21:35,554
but he always calls himself Des.
402
00:21:35,579 --> 00:21:38,861
He always drinks rum, not vodka,
403
00:21:38,886 --> 00:21:42,213
and there is no number plate
on the house at Melrose Avenue.
404
00:21:42,398 --> 00:21:43,957
There never has been.
405
00:21:43,982 --> 00:21:46,346
I dunno, I thought there was.
406
00:21:46,371 --> 00:21:49,650
Mm, but you seemed so
sure of the details before.
407
00:21:49,675 --> 00:21:51,036
And why might that be?
408
00:21:51,061 --> 00:21:55,460
Why might someone go to the trouble
of furnishing their testimony
409
00:21:55,485 --> 00:21:58,604
with a great deal of specific detail
410
00:21:58,629 --> 00:22:01,405
that seems to be pulled from thin air?
411
00:22:01,430 --> 00:22:04,295
I put it to you, Mr Stewart,
that your testimony to this court
412
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,281
is nothing more than a pack of lies,
413
00:22:06,306 --> 00:22:09,678
dreamt up to satisfy
a tabloid newspaper.
414
00:22:11,029 --> 00:22:13,590
Well, Mr Stewart?
415
00:22:14,232 --> 00:22:16,631
Have you sold your story?
416
00:22:17,404 --> 00:22:21,228
Er... Y... Yes.
417
00:22:21,829 --> 00:22:24,533
No further questions, my Lord.
418
00:22:27,006 --> 00:22:28,327
How dare he!
419
00:22:28,352 --> 00:22:30,415
Standing up there in
that ridiculous suit,
420
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,040
spouting those lies.
421
00:22:32,065 --> 00:22:34,704
So you're saying that
Douglas Stewart is lying?
422
00:22:34,729 --> 00:22:36,848
That you didn't try and kill him?
423
00:22:36,873 --> 00:22:39,438
Yes, I did. But not as he described it.
424
00:22:39,463 --> 00:22:41,977
This is about absolute truth, Brian.
425
00:22:42,313 --> 00:22:44,845
It has to be,
otherwise we don't get any answers.
426
00:22:45,464 --> 00:22:47,523
You cannot possibly believe
427
00:22:47,548 --> 00:22:50,140
that what you put him through
out there was justified.
428
00:22:50,165 --> 00:22:52,413
What are you getting so agitated about?
429
00:22:52,438 --> 00:22:55,360
I'm giving you a wonderful
final act for your book.
430
00:22:55,923 --> 00:22:57,938
Like you said about the book, Brian,
431
00:22:57,963 --> 00:23:00,374
it's not up to us to make
subjective decisions.
432
00:23:00,399 --> 00:23:02,345
We have to remain
objective in all of this.
433
00:23:02,370 --> 00:23:05,087
Thus, it is up to the jury to decide
434
00:23:05,112 --> 00:23:06,759
whether I'm just bad...
435
00:23:06,784 --> 00:23:08,751
or outrageously bad.
436
00:23:17,554 --> 00:23:19,675
- See you back in chambers.
- Thank you.
437
00:23:19,769 --> 00:23:21,424
Did you know he'd sold
his story to the press?
438
00:23:21,448 --> 00:23:22,462
Course I didn't!
439
00:23:22,487 --> 00:23:25,247
We're lucky the judge didn't strike
his testimony from the record.
440
00:23:25,615 --> 00:23:27,790
It can't have harmed us
that much, right?
441
00:23:28,141 --> 00:23:30,516
Stewart's credibility is gone,
his testimony is now useless.
442
00:23:30,541 --> 00:23:31,741
We're in a lot of trouble.
443
00:23:31,766 --> 00:23:32,923
Surely we still have enough?
444
00:23:32,948 --> 00:23:35,589
I mean, we have the tie with the
knotted rope, and Duffey's knives.
445
00:23:35,614 --> 00:23:37,438
All those show premeditation to murder.
446
00:23:37,463 --> 00:23:39,158
Peter, physical evidence
is all very good and well,
447
00:23:39,182 --> 00:23:40,438
but it's also circumstantial.
448
00:23:40,463 --> 00:23:41,993
We had an eye witness, a survivor,
449
00:23:42,018 --> 00:23:44,602
and without that,
we're significantly weaker.
450
00:23:45,297 --> 00:23:46,626
Sorry.
451
00:24:01,833 --> 00:24:03,391
Hello, Carl.
452
00:24:03,777 --> 00:24:05,138
Can I come in?
453
00:24:15,386 --> 00:24:17,106
How have you been?
454
00:24:18,436 --> 00:24:20,436
Things keep coming back to me.
455
00:24:22,231 --> 00:24:24,030
What kind of things?
456
00:24:27,540 --> 00:24:29,540
He said he liked my shoes.
457
00:24:34,396 --> 00:24:35,676
Thank you.
458
00:24:39,590 --> 00:24:43,791
The doctor said it was
all nightmares, caused...
459
00:24:45,790 --> 00:24:49,830
I'd had a bit of a hard
time with an ex of mine.
460
00:24:51,477 --> 00:24:54,398
They even put me on tablets
to block everything out.
461
00:25:01,388 --> 00:25:03,708
Listen, Carl, um...
462
00:25:06,055 --> 00:25:08,255
The trial isn't going how we'd hoped.
463
00:25:08,536 --> 00:25:11,005
We think your testimony
could be crucial.
464
00:25:11,030 --> 00:25:12,942
But I've already given my statement.
465
00:25:13,407 --> 00:25:15,067
The man said that would be enough.
466
00:25:15,092 --> 00:25:18,453
I know, but we need you
to give it in court.
467
00:25:19,413 --> 00:25:20,739
What, with him there?
468
00:25:20,764 --> 00:25:23,255
- You wouldn't have to be close to him.
- No, I can't.
469
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,942
- Carl...
- He killed me, Mr Jay.
470
00:25:27,144 --> 00:25:30,864
And then he... brought me back to life.
471
00:25:31,435 --> 00:25:34,317
I can't imagine what
you've been through, Carl.
472
00:25:34,892 --> 00:25:36,677
I really can't.
473
00:25:37,771 --> 00:25:39,442
But please believe me,
474
00:25:39,467 --> 00:25:42,388
if he gets a lesser sentence,
you'll find no peace.
475
00:25:42,763 --> 00:25:45,162
I'm sorry. I can't...
476
00:25:47,018 --> 00:25:49,939
be in the same room as him.
477
00:25:51,395 --> 00:25:53,224
I can't go back there.
478
00:25:55,493 --> 00:25:57,810
Then they'll subpoena you anyway.
479
00:25:57,835 --> 00:26:00,115
You'll be forced to testify.
480
00:26:03,275 --> 00:26:05,474
So I don't have a choice?
481
00:26:15,219 --> 00:26:16,738
[DOOR OPENS]
482
00:26:23,340 --> 00:26:25,261
[DOOR SLAMS SHUT]
483
00:26:25,930 --> 00:26:28,606
I swear by Almighty God that
the evidence I shall give
484
00:26:28,631 --> 00:26:32,130
shall be the truth, the whole
truth and nothing by the truth.
485
00:26:33,334 --> 00:26:35,263
Could you recount, Mr Stottor,
486
00:26:35,288 --> 00:26:37,989
the events of that night in April 1982,
487
00:26:38,014 --> 00:26:39,453
when you met the defendant?
488
00:26:45,220 --> 00:26:49,188
Where, for example,
did you meet Mr Nilsen?
489
00:26:49,325 --> 00:26:51,372
In The Black Cap, Camden.
490
00:26:51,606 --> 00:26:53,192
I was depressed.
491
00:26:53,497 --> 00:26:56,239
I'd just broken up with someone.
492
00:26:56,264 --> 00:26:59,264
Speak up, please, Mr Stottor.
493
00:27:03,131 --> 00:27:04,610
He was nice to me.
494
00:27:04,989 --> 00:27:07,435
In what sense was he nice?
495
00:27:07,654 --> 00:27:10,661
He bought me drinks.
496
00:27:10,686 --> 00:27:13,886
Er... He asked me about my family.
497
00:27:14,253 --> 00:27:16,653
He asked if you had family?
498
00:27:16,773 --> 00:27:21,493
Yes, and then he invited me
back to his flat for a drink.
499
00:27:22,222 --> 00:27:25,802
Um... We just drank
a lot and then he said
500
00:27:25,827 --> 00:27:28,278
I could go to sleep on his bed.
501
00:27:28,303 --> 00:27:31,083
And then he warned me not to get caught
502
00:27:31,108 --> 00:27:33,388
in the zip of the sleeping bag.
503
00:27:33,569 --> 00:27:34,849
Why do you think that was?
504
00:27:34,874 --> 00:27:37,034
Was it perhaps because
he was planning an alibi
505
00:27:37,059 --> 00:27:39,286
- in case you managed to escape?
- Objection, my Lord.
506
00:27:39,311 --> 00:27:41,552
- Leading.
- Sustained.
507
00:27:41,641 --> 00:27:43,841
Tell us what happened next.
508
00:27:50,644 --> 00:27:52,708
I woke up and I couldn't breathe.
509
00:27:53,129 --> 00:27:56,669
He was behind me and...
510
00:27:56,694 --> 00:27:59,294
I could feel something
digging into my neck.
511
00:28:00,771 --> 00:28:03,606
The pressure got worse...
512
00:28:03,959 --> 00:28:06,169
and the pain was unbearable.
513
00:28:06,194 --> 00:28:07,908
I couldn't see,
514
00:28:07,933 --> 00:28:10,833
or speak, or swallow.
515
00:28:10,858 --> 00:28:13,552
And I could hear him saying,
"Keep still".
516
00:28:14,627 --> 00:28:17,880
The next thing I knew, I was in water.
517
00:28:18,928 --> 00:28:22,614
In a bath. Being pushed down.
Again and again.
518
00:28:22,685 --> 00:28:26,684
And I didn't know where I
was or what was happening.
519
00:28:26,709 --> 00:28:30,325
And I swallowed water.
520
00:28:30,752 --> 00:28:34,591
I couldn't resist any more
and I realised...
521
00:28:35,466 --> 00:28:37,778
that I was dying.
522
00:28:39,234 --> 00:28:40,888
Thank you, Mr Stottor.
523
00:28:40,913 --> 00:28:42,731
No further questions, my Lord.
524
00:28:43,011 --> 00:28:46,724
You have an alter-ego,
Mr Stottor, do you not?
525
00:28:47,263 --> 00:28:49,422
Khara Le Fox.
526
00:28:49,591 --> 00:28:51,302
A drag act.
527
00:28:51,327 --> 00:28:53,411
You're a female impersonator.
528
00:28:53,436 --> 00:28:55,028
I used to be, yes.
529
00:28:55,053 --> 00:28:57,817
You've already been asked, Mr Stottor,
530
00:28:57,842 --> 00:28:59,653
if you could speak up
531
00:28:59,678 --> 00:29:02,028
for the benefit of the court?
532
00:29:02,372 --> 00:29:03,512
[LOUDER] Yes.
533
00:29:04,498 --> 00:29:05,973
But...
534
00:29:06,546 --> 00:29:11,065
since the attack,
I'm not able to sing any more.
535
00:29:11,090 --> 00:29:14,251
And you had several
relationships with men,
536
00:29:14,276 --> 00:29:17,508
including one which became abusive.
537
00:29:17,533 --> 00:29:21,339
Your night with Nilsen was, therefore,
538
00:29:21,364 --> 00:29:24,395
not your first violent
homosexual encounter...
539
00:29:24,420 --> 00:29:27,005
My Lord, I must object
to this line of questioning.
540
00:29:27,030 --> 00:29:29,309
A history of deviant encounters
541
00:29:29,334 --> 00:29:32,669
raises the possibility of
a sex game gone wrong, my Lord.
542
00:29:32,694 --> 00:29:35,770
Sustained. Move on, Mr Lawrence.
543
00:29:36,228 --> 00:29:38,817
Now, could you tell us, Mr Stottor,
544
00:29:38,842 --> 00:29:42,332
where you woke up after
you had been in the bath?
545
00:29:43,294 --> 00:29:44,533
On the bed.
546
00:29:44,572 --> 00:29:48,332
On the bed. And was
the room warm or cold?
547
00:29:48,809 --> 00:29:49,942
Warm.
548
00:29:49,967 --> 00:29:52,145
Nilsen had heated the room, had he not?
549
00:29:52,170 --> 00:29:55,528
He had put on all the
bars on the electric fire.
550
00:29:56,738 --> 00:29:59,658
Yes, I suppose so.
551
00:29:59,754 --> 00:30:03,215
And how long after
you woke up did you leave the flat?
552
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:08,137
Well, I kept falling asleep,
so maybe one or two days.
553
00:30:08,162 --> 00:30:09,856
One or two days.
554
00:30:09,881 --> 00:30:13,231
Did Nilsen keep you under duress?
555
00:30:13,256 --> 00:30:18,450
No, but I was very confused...
556
00:30:18,575 --> 00:30:20,778
and also in a lot of pain.
557
00:30:20,803 --> 00:30:22,200
Did he, in fact,
558
00:30:22,225 --> 00:30:26,225
walk you to the tube station
when you wanted to go?
559
00:30:27,062 --> 00:30:28,181
Yes.
560
00:30:28,206 --> 00:30:32,123
This supposedly cold
and calculating killer,
561
00:30:32,148 --> 00:30:34,490
with every opportunity
to finish the job,
562
00:30:34,515 --> 00:30:38,412
instead let you sleep
in a warm bed for days,
563
00:30:38,437 --> 00:30:40,865
before seeing you home safely.
564
00:30:40,890 --> 00:30:44,130
In fact, aside from the incident itself,
565
00:30:44,155 --> 00:30:48,810
did he not show you more care
and kindness that evening
566
00:30:48,835 --> 00:30:52,740
than anyone else in your life
had done for a very long time?
567
00:30:55,220 --> 00:30:56,659
Yes.
568
00:30:59,309 --> 00:31:01,269
That's what I can't understand.
569
00:31:02,403 --> 00:31:04,762
Is he my murderer or my saviour?
570
00:31:05,993 --> 00:31:10,201
How peculiar that is.
571
00:31:11,407 --> 00:31:13,654
No further questions, my Lord.
572
00:31:15,274 --> 00:31:17,514
You may step down, Mr Stottor.
573
00:31:23,053 --> 00:31:24,533
You did really well in there.
574
00:31:24,795 --> 00:31:25,926
Listen, Carl...
575
00:31:25,951 --> 00:31:27,428
I want to go home now.
576
00:31:27,476 --> 00:31:30,451
[CROWD CALLS OUT]
577
00:31:30,476 --> 00:31:33,310
[MAN SHOUTS]
He should have killed you, you queer!
578
00:31:47,651 --> 00:31:50,381
[VOICES FADE]
579
00:31:56,213 --> 00:31:57,685
Mr Jay...
580
00:32:05,679 --> 00:32:08,170
I feel I owe you an apology.
581
00:32:09,916 --> 00:32:11,607
You were right.
582
00:32:12,479 --> 00:32:13,928
He's not insane.
583
00:32:14,647 --> 00:32:17,771
He knew exactly what he was doing.
584
00:32:18,677 --> 00:32:23,236
As much then as he does now.
585
00:32:42,846 --> 00:32:46,100
[PHOTOGRAPHERS SHOUT]
586
00:33:16,849 --> 00:33:18,329
Detective, are you confident?
587
00:33:18,354 --> 00:33:20,753
Do you think you'll get justice
for the victims, Detective?
588
00:33:21,216 --> 00:33:23,576
In the following days
you interviewed him at length.
589
00:33:23,601 --> 00:33:25,012
Is that correct?
590
00:33:25,045 --> 00:33:28,146
Yes, we interviewed
him for a total of 31 hours.
591
00:33:28,171 --> 00:33:29,612
And in those 31 hours,
592
00:33:29,637 --> 00:33:33,118
did Mr Nilsen ever mention
visions or voices in his head
593
00:33:33,143 --> 00:33:35,576
- telling him to commit his crimes?
- No.
594
00:33:35,601 --> 00:33:36,857
Did he ever show any signs at all
595
00:33:36,881 --> 00:33:39,006
of being out of his mind, so to speak,
596
00:33:39,031 --> 00:33:41,014
or mentally unwell in any way?
597
00:33:41,053 --> 00:33:42,805
No. Quite the opposite, in fact.
598
00:33:42,830 --> 00:33:45,973
He seemed... calm.
599
00:33:46,167 --> 00:33:48,675
Collected. In control.
600
00:33:48,700 --> 00:33:50,940
- Hardly a madman.
- No.
601
00:33:51,165 --> 00:33:52,885
Detective Chief Inspector Jay,
602
00:33:52,910 --> 00:33:54,102
could you please tell the court,
603
00:33:54,126 --> 00:33:56,388
for how long have you
been a police officer?
604
00:33:56,558 --> 00:33:58,242
Almost 23 years.
605
00:33:58,267 --> 00:34:00,379
And based on those years of experience,
606
00:34:00,404 --> 00:34:03,916
what is your professional
opinion of Dennis Nilsen?
607
00:34:06,447 --> 00:34:09,264
I've seen criminals in
all shapes and sizes.
608
00:34:10,486 --> 00:34:11,601
When they're on remand,
609
00:34:11,626 --> 00:34:14,435
they ask to be visited
by all sorts of people,
610
00:34:14,730 --> 00:34:17,659
priests, rabbis, imams.
611
00:34:18,057 --> 00:34:21,061
I even had a fella who
asked for a shaman.
612
00:34:21,873 --> 00:34:25,884
Because most of them are
just wanting forgiveness.
613
00:34:27,797 --> 00:34:29,200
Mr Nilsen's only visitor
614
00:34:29,225 --> 00:34:31,580
in the eight months
whilst he was on remand
615
00:34:31,917 --> 00:34:33,533
was a biographer.
616
00:34:35,227 --> 00:34:38,334
In my opinion, he's a remorseless coward
617
00:34:38,359 --> 00:34:41,580
who killed innocent and
vulnerable men as they slept.
618
00:34:43,147 --> 00:34:44,690
Thank you, Detective Chief Inspector.
619
00:34:44,715 --> 00:34:46,494
No further questions, my Lord.
620
00:34:47,064 --> 00:34:48,930
Detective Chief Inspector,
621
00:34:48,955 --> 00:34:53,419
you say you interviewed
Nilsen for 31 hours, yes?
622
00:34:53,444 --> 00:34:54,444
That's right.
623
00:34:54,469 --> 00:34:58,270
In all that time of him
talking almost incessantly,
624
00:34:58,295 --> 00:35:03,014
did he ever mention
planning the murders at all?
625
00:35:04,318 --> 00:35:05,547
No.
626
00:35:05,990 --> 00:35:08,007
No further questions, my Lord.
627
00:35:08,272 --> 00:35:09,875
You may step down, Officer.
628
00:35:10,074 --> 00:35:11,260
Thank you.
629
00:35:12,738 --> 00:35:15,223
We have an old Latin phrase in the law,
630
00:35:15,248 --> 00:35:17,091
"Res ipsa loquitur",
631
00:35:17,116 --> 00:35:19,200
"The act speaks for itself."
632
00:35:19,467 --> 00:35:21,842
What sort of man kills people,
633
00:35:21,867 --> 00:35:24,644
lives with their bodies
rotting under the floorboards,
634
00:35:24,669 --> 00:35:28,536
and flushes pieces of
them down the lavatory?
635
00:35:28,561 --> 00:35:33,013
Do these seem to you the actions
of a man in his right mind?
636
00:35:33,277 --> 00:35:36,082
If you think, as we invite you to think,
637
00:35:36,107 --> 00:35:38,227
and as the evidence surely shows,
638
00:35:38,252 --> 00:35:42,204
that these crimes were not
planned or premeditated,
639
00:35:42,229 --> 00:35:45,898
but were due to Nilsen's
seriously abnormal personality
640
00:35:45,923 --> 00:35:47,198
and way of thinking,
641
00:35:47,223 --> 00:35:50,348
then you will find him
not guilty of murder,
642
00:35:50,373 --> 00:35:54,889
but guilty of manslaughter by
way of diminished responsibility.
643
00:35:55,030 --> 00:35:58,311
That is the verdict which
we invite you to return.
644
00:36:01,165 --> 00:36:02,926
What's taking them so long?
645
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,340
Same again? Wee ones?
646
00:36:12,594 --> 00:36:14,442
[DOOR OPENS]
647
00:36:30,132 --> 00:36:32,013
Madam Foreman of the jury.
648
00:36:33,632 --> 00:36:36,592
Have you reached verdicts
on which you are all agreed?
649
00:36:37,272 --> 00:36:38,908
No, we have not.
650
00:36:38,933 --> 00:36:40,571
[THEY SIGH]
651
00:36:40,596 --> 00:36:44,605
Might you reach a verdict if
the court sits until early evening?
652
00:36:44,855 --> 00:36:46,977
I don't believe so, your Honour.
653
00:36:47,002 --> 00:36:49,477
Very well. You will retire overnight.
654
00:36:49,502 --> 00:36:51,502
The court will reconvene in the morning
655
00:36:51,527 --> 00:36:54,286
where I will accept a majority verdict.
656
00:37:01,210 --> 00:37:02,731
TV REPORT: More time's now being spent
657
00:37:02,756 --> 00:37:05,352
on what's possibly
wrong with Dennis Nilsen
658
00:37:05,377 --> 00:37:07,258
than what he's actually done.
659
00:37:07,418 --> 00:37:11,758
A man who has described himself as
the "murderer of the century".
660
00:37:11,783 --> 00:37:15,813
A defence psychiatrist said Nilsen
acted as if he were the judge,
661
00:37:15,838 --> 00:37:18,478
judging this case of an infamous crime.
662
00:37:18,503 --> 00:37:19,556
He shows off.
663
00:37:19,581 --> 00:37:22,965
He really believes he is the most
important person of the century.
664
00:37:22,990 --> 00:37:26,808
The defence expert found another
way of describing Nilsen's mind.
665
00:37:26,833 --> 00:37:29,059
"His personality was like his house.
666
00:37:29,084 --> 00:37:31,460
"It looked perfectly all
right from the outside,
667
00:37:31,485 --> 00:37:34,301
"but perhaps there was something
of a funny smell about it,
668
00:37:34,326 --> 00:37:36,112
"and when you looked
under the floorboards,
669
00:37:36,137 --> 00:37:38,018
"you would find horrors."
670
00:37:38,524 --> 00:37:40,267
The jury is returning.
671
00:38:08,439 --> 00:38:10,636
Would the foreman of
the jury please stand?
672
00:38:13,284 --> 00:38:14,684
Madam Foreman,
673
00:38:14,709 --> 00:38:17,340
do you have a majority on your verdicts?
674
00:38:17,832 --> 00:38:19,123
We do.
675
00:38:19,567 --> 00:38:22,625
On the charge of the
murder of Stephen Sinclair,
676
00:38:22,650 --> 00:38:24,650
how do you find the defendant?
677
00:38:25,965 --> 00:38:27,284
Guilty.
678
00:38:28,335 --> 00:38:31,559
On the charge of the murder
of Kenneth Ockenden,
679
00:38:31,673 --> 00:38:33,448
how do you find the defendant?
680
00:38:33,632 --> 00:38:34,805
Guilty.
681
00:38:34,844 --> 00:38:37,804
On the charge of
the murder of John Howlett,
682
00:38:38,202 --> 00:38:40,295
how do you find the defendant?
683
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:41,331
Guilty.
684
00:38:41,356 --> 00:38:43,974
On the charge of
the murder of Martyn Duffey,
685
00:38:43,999 --> 00:38:45,729
how do you find the defendant?
686
00:38:45,754 --> 00:38:47,184
Guilty.
687
00:38:47,209 --> 00:38:50,157
On the charge of
the murder of Billy Sutherland,
688
00:38:50,182 --> 00:38:52,103
how do you find the defendant?
689
00:38:52,128 --> 00:38:53,489
Guilty.
690
00:38:53,514 --> 00:38:55,785
On the charge of
the murder of Malcolm Barlow,
691
00:38:55,813 --> 00:38:57,355
how do you find the defendant?
692
00:38:57,380 --> 00:38:58,846
Guilty.
693
00:38:58,871 --> 00:39:02,447
On the charge of the attempted
murder of Douglas Stewart,
694
00:39:02,472 --> 00:39:04,088
how do you find the defendant?
695
00:39:04,113 --> 00:39:05,423
Guilty.
696
00:39:05,757 --> 00:39:09,036
On the charge of the attempted
murder of Paul Nobbs,
697
00:39:09,269 --> 00:39:11,389
how do you find the defendant?
698
00:39:11,550 --> 00:39:12,829
Guilty.
699
00:39:14,686 --> 00:39:16,886
Dennis Andrew Nilsen,
700
00:39:16,911 --> 00:39:19,897
your victims were innocent young men,
701
00:39:19,922 --> 00:39:23,136
guilty only of accepting
your hospitality,
702
00:39:23,161 --> 00:39:28,036
whereupon you ended
their lives cruelly and callously,
703
00:39:28,061 --> 00:39:32,296
for reasons that will
remain known only to you.
704
00:39:33,620 --> 00:39:37,765
The sentence for murder is fixed in law.
705
00:39:37,790 --> 00:39:39,789
It is imprisonment for life,
706
00:39:39,814 --> 00:39:42,613
and that is the sentence
which I pass on you
707
00:39:42,638 --> 00:39:46,131
on each count of this indictment.
708
00:39:47,931 --> 00:39:49,491
Take him down.
709
00:40:14,890 --> 00:40:16,771
[DOOR SLAMS]
710
00:40:16,796 --> 00:40:18,676
[INDISTINCT CONVERSATION]
711
00:40:20,301 --> 00:40:22,417
Mr Jay. Well done.
712
00:40:22,442 --> 00:40:24,441
It went down to the wire
at the end, didn't it?
713
00:40:24,466 --> 00:40:26,280
You must be pleased it's over.
714
00:40:28,465 --> 00:40:31,546
If at any time in the future
you remember any more names...
715
00:40:33,273 --> 00:40:34,713
please write to me.
716
00:40:35,493 --> 00:40:37,353
I promise you'll be the first to know.
717
00:40:38,194 --> 00:40:39,796
I think the jury got it
right in the end.
718
00:40:39,821 --> 00:40:41,646
- Yeah.
- I don't think I'm mad.
719
00:40:42,652 --> 00:40:45,373
If you hadn't caught me that day...
720
00:40:47,352 --> 00:40:50,239
it'd be 115, not 15.
721
00:40:51,516 --> 00:40:53,356
I could never have stopped.
722
00:40:56,466 --> 00:40:57,785
Okay.
723
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:00,843
Good luck.
724
00:41:30,957 --> 00:41:32,758
What will you do with it all?
725
00:41:32,783 --> 00:41:36,859
Oh, I don't know.
Chuck most of it, probably.
726
00:41:42,001 --> 00:41:44,543
Mr Jay... um...
727
00:41:44,693 --> 00:41:46,814
do you mind if I ask you a question?
728
00:41:47,737 --> 00:41:48,936
Go on.
729
00:41:49,224 --> 00:41:53,825
When you first met him,
did you believe him straight away?
730
00:41:55,553 --> 00:41:57,029
Yes, I did.
731
00:41:58,199 --> 00:42:00,069
What went through your
mind at that moment?
732
00:42:00,094 --> 00:42:02,253
Well, I thought, um...
733
00:42:07,501 --> 00:42:09,061
Honestly?
734
00:42:12,697 --> 00:42:15,458
The first thing I thought was,
"I hope that I'm up to this."
735
00:42:15,483 --> 00:42:17,963
Don't put that in your book.
736
00:42:19,242 --> 00:42:20,922
You have my word.
737
00:42:24,057 --> 00:42:26,724
- And about my book...
- No, look, it's fine.
738
00:42:29,747 --> 00:42:32,178
We both had our way of looking at this.
739
00:42:35,772 --> 00:42:38,933
Well, what will they do with this place?
740
00:42:39,449 --> 00:42:41,362
I don't know.
741
00:42:42,488 --> 00:42:45,140
Sell it or rent it out, I'd imagine.
742
00:42:46,085 --> 00:42:48,705
Who'd want to live here? I mean, it's...
743
00:42:49,421 --> 00:42:52,590
There's the smell for one thing.
744
00:42:54,602 --> 00:42:56,340
D'you know the worst thing?
745
00:42:58,839 --> 00:43:00,960
I don't smell it any more.
746
00:43:06,889 --> 00:43:08,690
I'll see you outside.
747
00:43:21,324 --> 00:43:23,826
So, how have you been?
748
00:43:23,883 --> 00:43:25,033
Ah, you know.
749
00:43:25,725 --> 00:43:28,797
Adjusting to being
a permanent resident, and all.
750
00:43:29,521 --> 00:43:31,667
Apart from that, not too bad.
751
00:43:32,198 --> 00:43:34,158
I read your book. My book.
752
00:43:34,326 --> 00:43:35,651
What did you think?
753
00:43:35,682 --> 00:43:39,443
To be honest, Brian,
I found it absolutely terrifying.
754
00:43:41,008 --> 00:43:42,633
But it's good, yeah.
755
00:43:42,658 --> 00:43:44,380
Much better than I expected.
756
00:43:44,601 --> 00:43:46,568
Of course, I have some thoughts.
757
00:43:48,568 --> 00:43:50,730
Please don't be discouraged
by my observations.
758
00:43:50,755 --> 00:43:53,748
I've lost none of my respect
or admiration for you,
759
00:43:53,773 --> 00:43:55,105
or your work.
760
00:44:00,908 --> 00:44:02,839
Oh, well, thank you. Um...
761
00:44:03,238 --> 00:44:05,261
I'm sure it'll be very helpful.
762
00:44:05,402 --> 00:44:08,042
My biggest concern is you
didn't name any of the victims.
763
00:44:08,244 --> 00:44:10,836
No, I-I wanted to respect their privacy.
764
00:44:11,095 --> 00:44:13,741
Well, I think it's disrespectful
not naming them.
765
00:44:15,003 --> 00:44:16,248
I robbed them of their life.
766
00:44:16,273 --> 00:44:18,137
Please don't rob them
of their identities.
767
00:44:20,299 --> 00:44:22,150
And the title,
768
00:44:23,159 --> 00:44:25,542
Killing For Company, is a little...
769
00:44:26,132 --> 00:44:27,328
Ah.
770
00:44:27,825 --> 00:44:29,671
It should just be Nilsen.
771
00:44:30,272 --> 00:44:31,831
No.
772
00:44:31,942 --> 00:44:33,123
Why not?
773
00:44:33,917 --> 00:44:35,545
Book is about me, after all.
774
00:44:35,570 --> 00:44:37,612
I'm not going to call it Nilsen.
775
00:44:37,637 --> 00:44:40,310
This isn't your book.
It's not about you.
776
00:44:40,813 --> 00:44:42,910
It's about how someone
like you came to be.
777
00:44:42,935 --> 00:44:44,856
I told you when we first met
778
00:44:44,881 --> 00:44:48,542
that I wasn't going to use
grisly or emotive adjectives,
779
00:44:48,567 --> 00:44:50,559
and I have stuck to my word.
780
00:44:51,532 --> 00:44:53,549
But make no mistake,
781
00:44:53,574 --> 00:44:55,602
this isn't a celebration.
782
00:44:56,555 --> 00:44:58,756
It's a warning.
783
00:45:03,014 --> 00:45:05,837
You know, there were only
12 victims, not 15.
784
00:45:08,775 --> 00:45:11,874
When I sat in the back of the police car
the night of my arrest,
785
00:45:11,899 --> 00:45:13,786
they asked me how many there were,
and I wasn't very sure,
786
00:45:13,810 --> 00:45:16,263
so I just gave them
a figure, "15 or 16".
787
00:45:18,271 --> 00:45:21,256
And three... three of those
victims were invented,
788
00:45:22,182 --> 00:45:25,518
just to complement the continuity
of evidence for the police.
789
00:45:25,543 --> 00:45:27,263
Keep them happy.
790
00:45:28,707 --> 00:45:31,707
Everybody has had a chance to
write their version of my story.
791
00:45:31,732 --> 00:45:33,238
When's it my turn?
792
00:45:41,682 --> 00:45:44,523
I'll send you a copy
when it's published.
793
00:45:45,410 --> 00:45:47,208
Come and see me again.
794
00:46:01,533 --> 00:46:06,086
_
795
00:46:06,370 --> 00:46:11,569
_
796
00:46:17,227 --> 00:46:21,711
_
797
00:46:21,922 --> 00:46:27,513
_
798
00:46:29,853 --> 00:46:32,151
_
799
00:46:32,218 --> 00:46:34,190
_
800
00:46:34,384 --> 00:46:38,394
_
801
00:46:38,596 --> 00:46:43,067
_
802
00:46:45,293 --> 00:46:47,407
_
803
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,367
_
804
00:46:49,465 --> 00:46:51,248
_
805
00:47:01,736 --> 00:47:04,736
Synced & corrected by QueenMaddie
www.addic7ed.com
59999
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