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[frogs croaking]
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[croaking continues]
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[somber music]
4
00:00:47,264 --> 00:00:48,265
[pen cap clicking]
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[pen rasping]
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00:00:51,660 --> 00:00:53,662
[croaking]
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[Matt] I always first start
with the eyeball like this,
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00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,455
and you gotta leave a little bit
of space there for the goo.
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His little froggie eyelids.
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That looks like sex parts
a little bit.
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[marker rasping]
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00:01:15,249 --> 00:01:18,513
[Matt] I've just always been
into drawing.
13
00:01:18,556 --> 00:01:22,082
And it takes tons of time
to come up with a character
14
00:01:22,125 --> 00:01:25,476
that you like enough
to draw over and over again.
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00:01:27,957 --> 00:01:30,916
It's just been kind of
a slow drip of frogs
16
00:01:30,960 --> 00:01:32,788
throughout my entire life.
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[Matt]It's just one little frog after another,
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after another, after another.
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And then eventually,
it was Pepe.
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[birds chirping]
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00:01:48,891 --> 00:01:50,632
[Matt] It's a happy little frog.
22
00:02:01,730 --> 00:02:04,298
[interviewer] What do people
get wrong about drawing Pepe?
23
00:02:04,907 --> 00:02:07,301
[Matt] Um...
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00:02:07,344 --> 00:02:10,826
Probably when they put Pepe
on the Internet saying, like,
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00:02:10,869 --> 00:02:13,089
"Kill Jews."
26
00:02:13,742 --> 00:02:16,875
[upbeat music]
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00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:21,184
Are you familiar with this meme
called Pepe the Frog?
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00:02:21,228 --> 00:02:22,881
[Stephen] Okay,
so for those who don't,
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00:02:22,925 --> 00:02:25,319
here's the thing.
Here's Pepe the Frog, okay?
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00:02:27,712 --> 00:02:29,932
Have you seen, you know,
this frog meme?
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00:02:29,975 --> 00:02:31,063
Uh, forgot the name of it.
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Many of you may remember
Pepe the Frog who once...
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♪ I saw a man today
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♪ He led a big parade
Downtown ♪
35
00:02:44,816 --> 00:02:46,122
♪ And the doctor came
36
00:02:46,166 --> 00:02:48,298
♪ He stands aside
Talking down ♪
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00:02:48,342 --> 00:02:49,821
♪ Hey
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00:02:49,865 --> 00:02:51,388
♪ It sounds like
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00:02:51,432 --> 00:02:54,043
I bet 90% of your viewers
haven't heard of Pepe the Frog.
40
00:02:54,086 --> 00:02:56,219
[Trump Jr] I thought
it was a frog in a wig.
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00:02:56,263 --> 00:02:58,047
[woman #1] The white
supremacist movement
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00:02:58,090 --> 00:03:00,745
has taken over Pepe the Frog!
43
00:03:00,789 --> 00:03:02,312
♪ 'Cause I've been really
44
00:03:02,356 --> 00:03:04,836
♪ I've been in love with you
45
00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,275
[overlapping dialogue]
46
00:03:11,278 --> 00:03:13,454
[mouse clicking]
47
00:03:14,150 --> 00:03:15,325
[beeping]
48
00:03:20,983 --> 00:03:23,551
[upbeat music]
49
00:03:27,859 --> 00:03:29,513
[screaming]
50
00:03:29,557 --> 00:03:32,342
♪ I've been in love
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00:03:32,386 --> 00:03:34,301
♪ With you
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00:03:34,344 --> 00:03:36,477
[screams]
53
00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,479
♪ I've been in love
54
00:03:38,522 --> 00:03:42,961
♪ With you
55
00:03:52,014 --> 00:03:53,624
[girl panting]
56
00:03:53,668 --> 00:03:56,932
[footsteps rustling]
57
00:04:01,110 --> 00:04:02,677
[both chuckle]
58
00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,374
[Matt] We're here
in the community thrift store,
59
00:04:04,418 --> 00:04:06,420
and, uh, it all started here.
60
00:04:08,204 --> 00:04:09,945
Ooh, let's see what's back here.
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00:04:12,861 --> 00:04:15,429
[Matt] I do get, like,
waves of nostalgia
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00:04:15,472 --> 00:04:18,388
for the youthful time in my 20s working here,
63
00:04:18,432 --> 00:04:19,911
just hanging out
with my friends, and...
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00:04:19,955 --> 00:04:21,609
just riding a bike
around San Francisco.
65
00:04:22,349 --> 00:04:23,611
So...
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00:04:23,654 --> 00:04:26,788
I basically just want
to be young again.
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00:04:29,530 --> 00:04:31,183
[man chuckles]
Guess what.
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00:04:32,663 --> 00:04:34,839
[Matt] This is my old
office space here.
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00:04:36,711 --> 00:04:40,105
It used to be
the toy department.
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00:04:40,149 --> 00:04:42,412
This is where I spent my days.
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00:04:42,456 --> 00:04:44,936
-With...
-[Elmo giggling]
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00:04:44,980 --> 00:04:46,547
That tickles.
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00:04:46,590 --> 00:04:47,591
...guys like that.
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00:04:51,116 --> 00:04:54,424
[Matt] I would have literally
a mountain of toys every day,
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00:04:54,468 --> 00:04:57,384
and it was just
really inspiring.
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00:04:57,427 --> 00:05:00,212
It's like working
inside of a brain.
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00:05:00,256 --> 00:05:03,868
If I got caught up with my work, I would just draw.
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00:05:03,912 --> 00:05:05,827
Every day would be, like,
new toys that would come in
79
00:05:05,870 --> 00:05:07,568
and I would draw them, and so...
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00:05:07,611 --> 00:05:09,831
It was my ideal job situation.
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00:05:12,399 --> 00:05:15,402
[Aiyana]Matt was always drawing that frog forever, I swear.
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00:05:15,445 --> 00:05:17,621
That was his go-to thing
to draw,
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00:05:17,665 --> 00:05:21,495
so I've been seeing
that frog's face...
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00:05:21,538 --> 00:05:22,844
for as long as I've known Matt.
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00:05:22,887 --> 00:05:24,411
[sneezes]
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-[Aiyana] Ew!
-[giggles]
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00:05:27,109 --> 00:05:29,154
-Ew! Ew, ew, ew.
-Excuse you.
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00:05:29,198 --> 00:05:30,982
[Aiyana giggles]
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00:05:31,026 --> 00:05:32,419
[Matt] I mean, the first time
I actually named him Pepe
90
00:05:32,462 --> 00:05:34,377
was for this comics that I did called Playtime.
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00:05:36,118 --> 00:05:38,338
I was just messing around
on Microsoft Paint
92
00:05:38,381 --> 00:05:40,557
and came up with Pepe and Brett.
93
00:05:41,297 --> 00:05:42,342
Two characters.
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00:05:43,865 --> 00:05:47,042
They did things
like go to raves and paint.
95
00:05:47,085 --> 00:05:48,609
[keyboard clacking]
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00:05:48,652 --> 00:05:50,437
[Matt] It just kind of
naturally developed.
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00:05:52,134 --> 00:05:53,309
And then I just thought
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00:05:53,353 --> 00:05:54,789
it would be fun
to have four characters,
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00:05:54,832 --> 00:05:56,747
kinda like the Ninja Turtles.
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00:05:56,791 --> 00:05:59,881
[Matt] It became Boy's Club.
101
00:05:59,924 --> 00:06:03,754
A lot of the humor is kind of
about post-college zone.
102
00:06:03,798 --> 00:06:05,800
You don't quite know
what you're doing,
103
00:06:05,843 --> 00:06:07,976
but you like drinking
and hanging out.
104
00:06:08,019 --> 00:06:10,108
The four characters
were just reflections
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00:06:10,152 --> 00:06:11,458
of my personality
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00:06:11,501 --> 00:06:13,068
and the personality
of my friends.
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00:06:13,111 --> 00:06:15,070
Landwolf, the party dog,
108
00:06:15,113 --> 00:06:17,072
Andy was the jokester
of the group,
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00:06:17,115 --> 00:06:18,595
Brett liked to dance,
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00:06:18,639 --> 00:06:20,292
and then Pepe the Frog
was just kinda like
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00:06:20,336 --> 00:06:21,642
the little brother of the group.
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00:06:21,685 --> 00:06:23,600
[clicking, beeping]
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[Chris] The better
I got to know Matt,
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00:06:29,301 --> 00:06:32,653
the more, kind of, similarities I saw with him and Pepe.
115
00:06:34,524 --> 00:06:36,221
Even the way Pepe looks,
116
00:06:36,265 --> 00:06:38,789
like he kinda, like,
looks like Matt a little bit.
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00:06:41,009 --> 00:06:42,445
[chuckles]
118
00:06:42,489 --> 00:06:44,012
[Johnny] Matt was
a little bit different
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00:06:44,055 --> 00:06:46,971
from what most people
would consider
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00:06:47,015 --> 00:06:48,538
a typical cartoonist.
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00:06:50,061 --> 00:06:51,280
I think it's more like this.
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00:06:52,063 --> 00:06:54,022
Mm-hmm.
[chuckles]
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00:06:54,065 --> 00:06:57,112
Button down shirt, nerd glasses.
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00:06:57,155 --> 00:06:59,375
[Johnny] He seem like he was,
like, a cool guy.
125
00:07:00,071 --> 00:07:01,464
And Boy's Club,
126
00:07:01,508 --> 00:07:03,031
it's one
of the funniest comics of,
127
00:07:03,074 --> 00:07:05,425
I don't know,
the last ten years.
128
00:07:05,468 --> 00:07:08,253
What's happening here is
Landwolf is passed out,
129
00:07:08,297 --> 00:07:09,994
but that's like how
he passed out.
130
00:07:10,038 --> 00:07:11,909
Like, he didn't quite make it
onto the bed.
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00:07:11,953 --> 00:07:13,345
[Chris] I don't know why,
I thought he was trying
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00:07:13,389 --> 00:07:15,783
to jerk off and he passed out,
like while he was...
133
00:07:15,826 --> 00:07:16,914
[Matt] Oh, I see.
134
00:07:17,567 --> 00:07:18,916
Yeah.
135
00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:20,135
[Chris] I guess it's open
for interpretation, huh?
136
00:07:20,178 --> 00:07:21,832
It is open for interpretation.
137
00:07:21,876 --> 00:07:23,834
Landwolf, I think
he kind of represents
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00:07:23,878 --> 00:07:26,881
the kind of hairy,
gross roommate
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00:07:26,924 --> 00:07:28,273
that you have sometimes.
140
00:07:28,317 --> 00:07:29,884
[Aiyana] Kinda clogging
the drains.
141
00:07:29,927 --> 00:07:32,016
It just made me think of our actual roommate, Chris.
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00:07:33,235 --> 00:07:34,758
Issues.
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00:07:34,802 --> 00:07:36,151
[munching]
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00:07:36,194 --> 00:07:37,805
[Matt] It's weird talking
about these
145
00:07:37,848 --> 00:07:39,850
because they're meant to be read in the privacy of your own home.
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00:07:39,894 --> 00:07:41,373
[Chris and Matt laughing]
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00:07:41,417 --> 00:07:43,680
I never actually had to explain
any of this shit.
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00:07:43,724 --> 00:07:44,986
[Matt laughs]
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00:07:46,553 --> 00:07:48,206
[Lisa] I met Matt
at a comics convention
150
00:07:48,250 --> 00:07:49,991
where we're signing
next to each other.
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00:07:50,034 --> 00:07:51,514
I loved Matt's comics.
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00:07:51,558 --> 00:07:52,863
I grew up with an older brother
153
00:07:52,907 --> 00:07:54,517
so I already had
that sense of humor
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00:07:54,561 --> 00:07:58,739
where I liked, you know,
boner jokes and barf and farts.
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00:07:58,782 --> 00:08:00,610
-[farts]
-[beeps]
156
00:08:00,654 --> 00:08:02,525
[Lisa] To me,
it felt very accessible.
157
00:08:02,569 --> 00:08:04,135
Like, it's the sort
of masculinity
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00:08:04,179 --> 00:08:05,441
where you can be
in your underwear
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00:08:05,485 --> 00:08:07,617
singing to Shania Twain.
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00:08:07,661 --> 00:08:11,055
♪ Oh, oh, oh, go totally crazy
161
00:08:11,099 --> 00:08:13,101
♪ Forget I'm a lady
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00:08:13,144 --> 00:08:14,537
♪ Men's shirts, short skirts
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00:08:14,581 --> 00:08:16,321
You know,
when I watched Seinfeld,
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00:08:16,365 --> 00:08:17,845
I liked Kramer the best.
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00:08:17,888 --> 00:08:20,500
When I read Boy's Club,
I liked Landwolf the best.
166
00:08:20,543 --> 00:08:22,763
[Emily]I guess Pepe's kind of more of an Elaine.
167
00:08:22,806 --> 00:08:24,068
-I mean...
-[Lisa chuckles]
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00:08:24,112 --> 00:08:26,375
[Emily] Elaine is great,
but, uh...
169
00:08:26,418 --> 00:08:29,813
But yeah, if Elaine had become
a symbol of the alt-right...
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00:08:29,857 --> 00:08:31,206
[chuckles]
I would be like,
171
00:08:31,249 --> 00:08:33,034
"Yeah, that's crazy.
That shouldn't be the case."
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00:08:35,123 --> 00:08:37,821
[Johnny]
It seems incredibly random.
173
00:08:37,865 --> 00:08:39,040
People are like,
174
00:08:39,083 --> 00:08:40,998
"This is the character
we're going to use
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00:08:41,042 --> 00:08:42,565
for the Internet."
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00:08:42,609 --> 00:08:44,262
Like, "This is going to be
the mascot for the Internet."
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00:08:46,134 --> 00:08:47,135
[camera shutter clicks]
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00:08:51,531 --> 00:08:55,578
[Aiyana] One day, he was doing
Boy's Club comics
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00:08:55,622 --> 00:08:57,275
at my house.
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00:08:57,319 --> 00:09:00,017
[Matt]I remember I was sitting on Aiyana's little love seat
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00:09:00,061 --> 00:09:02,193
in her tiny ass apartment.
182
00:09:02,237 --> 00:09:03,238
[Aiyana] He said...
183
00:09:03,847 --> 00:09:05,370
"Can you...
184
00:09:05,414 --> 00:09:08,286
stand over there
and bend over and,
185
00:09:08,330 --> 00:09:11,028
and kind of make it look like
you're pulling your pants down
186
00:09:11,072 --> 00:09:13,944
while you're bending over
so I can draw you?"
187
00:09:13,988 --> 00:09:15,990
You know,
toilets are hard to draw.
188
00:09:16,033 --> 00:09:18,732
People pulling down their pants
is hard to draw.
189
00:09:18,775 --> 00:09:20,037
So I kind of hunched over
190
00:09:20,081 --> 00:09:22,562
and pretended
like I was pulling my pants down
191
00:09:22,605 --> 00:09:23,998
and he drew a little sketch.
192
00:09:25,347 --> 00:09:27,828
[Aiyana]It ended up being Pepe.
193
00:09:28,872 --> 00:09:30,744
So, that was my butt.
194
00:09:32,354 --> 00:09:33,529
And my toilet.
195
00:09:33,573 --> 00:09:35,792
-[trickling]
-Ahh!
196
00:09:37,402 --> 00:09:39,491
[interviewer] So is Pepe's body
based on Aiyana?
197
00:09:40,101 --> 00:09:41,406
[Matt]
198
00:09:41,450 --> 00:09:43,539
[chuckles]
199
00:09:43,583 --> 00:09:44,975
Whatever kind of weird stuff
200
00:09:45,019 --> 00:09:47,064
kinda stuck with me
in childhood,
201
00:09:47,108 --> 00:09:49,501
sometimes it ends up
in Boy's Club, like...
202
00:09:49,545 --> 00:09:52,243
[Matt] I remember when I was
in second grade
203
00:09:52,287 --> 00:09:56,073
and I went to the bathroom
alongside my cousin David.
204
00:09:56,117 --> 00:09:58,815
And he pulled his pants
all the way down to go pee.
205
00:09:58,859 --> 00:10:01,601
Underwear and everything.
206
00:10:01,644 --> 00:10:04,212
[Matt] It seems
like it would feel really good
207
00:10:04,255 --> 00:10:06,475
so I wanted to make a comic
about that.
208
00:10:07,607 --> 00:10:08,999
Feels good, man.
209
00:10:11,436 --> 00:10:13,351
[Aiyana] That was
the frame that...
210
00:10:13,395 --> 00:10:15,876
[chuckles]
...started it all.
211
00:10:18,356 --> 00:10:21,229
[whirring]
212
00:10:26,016 --> 00:10:27,148
[Matt] I just thought
it was cool
213
00:10:27,191 --> 00:10:28,758
that I could just draw a comic,
214
00:10:28,802 --> 00:10:31,195
scan it in
and put it on MySpace,
215
00:10:31,239 --> 00:10:33,720
and then people
would see it instantly.
216
00:10:34,285 --> 00:10:36,113
[whirring]
217
00:10:38,246 --> 00:10:41,466
Back then, it was kind of
newer territory and...
218
00:10:41,510 --> 00:10:43,251
and I liked the vibe
of MySpace a lot.
219
00:10:43,294 --> 00:10:44,774
[Matt] It was like,
um, you were inside
220
00:10:44,818 --> 00:10:46,515
somebody's locker room
or something.
221
00:10:52,739 --> 00:10:56,351
At the time, I had some friends
that, like, were into exercise.
222
00:10:56,394 --> 00:10:59,397
[Matt]And they found it online, like a before and after shot.
223
00:11:00,485 --> 00:11:02,009
It would say, "Feels good, man."
224
00:11:03,358 --> 00:11:04,751
I thought it was really weird.
225
00:11:04,794 --> 00:11:06,491
[Chris]A lot of weight lifters would be, like,
226
00:11:06,535 --> 00:11:08,493
"Oh, I just finished
a great workout.
227
00:11:08,537 --> 00:11:09,712
Feels good, man."
228
00:11:11,627 --> 00:11:13,934
And I remember
just thinking, like,
229
00:11:13,977 --> 00:11:15,936
"Oh, that can't be
because of Pepe."
230
00:11:15,979 --> 00:11:19,330
[Chris] You know, it's just some random accident.
231
00:11:19,374 --> 00:11:21,202
[Aiyana] The catch phrase,
"Feels good, man,"
232
00:11:21,245 --> 00:11:22,682
started becoming more popular.
233
00:11:24,379 --> 00:11:26,424
It would be a photo
of a cat or something
234
00:11:26,468 --> 00:11:28,296
and it would say,
"Feels good, man."
235
00:11:28,339 --> 00:11:32,169
Or there was one version of it
that said, "Feels Goodman,"
236
00:11:32,213 --> 00:11:33,954
with John Goodman's face.
237
00:11:33,997 --> 00:11:36,347
It was pretty funny at the time.
[chuckles]
238
00:11:41,657 --> 00:11:43,180
[Matt] When I would check
my email,
239
00:11:43,224 --> 00:11:45,966
every so often,
somebody would send me a link
240
00:11:46,009 --> 00:11:49,360
to a Pepe being in some kind
of weird chat room
241
00:11:49,404 --> 00:11:50,840
or something like that.
242
00:11:50,884 --> 00:11:52,450
I remember specifically,
243
00:11:52,494 --> 00:11:54,365
my dad sent me a link
to this kid
244
00:11:54,409 --> 00:11:55,802
who made a Pepe song.
245
00:11:55,845 --> 00:11:57,238
♪ Hey, Pepe
246
00:11:57,281 --> 00:11:58,456
♪ I heard you pull
Your pants down ♪
247
00:11:58,500 --> 00:12:00,110
♪ All the way to go pee
248
00:12:00,154 --> 00:12:03,070
- ♪ Could you show me?
- ♪ Feels good, man
249
00:12:03,113 --> 00:12:04,985
♪ Feels good, man
250
00:12:05,028 --> 00:12:07,204
And it was like
this big nerdy thing.
251
00:12:08,684 --> 00:12:11,295
I was, like,
kind of interested in it
252
00:12:11,339 --> 00:12:13,297
as an Internet phenomenon,
253
00:12:13,341 --> 00:12:15,299
but I didn't really think
too much about it.
254
00:12:15,343 --> 00:12:17,824
I was just like,
ha ha, whatever.
255
00:12:17,867 --> 00:12:19,608
[Johnny] When it started
to snowball...
256
00:12:21,131 --> 00:12:24,874
and Matt didn't seem to mind,
I was a little, like...
257
00:12:24,918 --> 00:12:27,224
"Well. I mean, that's weird."
258
00:12:27,268 --> 00:12:29,139
[Johnny] I said,
"Sue them. Lawyer up."
259
00:12:30,662 --> 00:12:32,012
[Matt] Man, I'm like an artist
260
00:12:32,055 --> 00:12:34,405
so I don't like suing
other artists.
261
00:12:34,449 --> 00:12:36,277
[Johnny]He's kind of just like, "Oh, yeah, man.
262
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,888
Just let them do
what they want."
263
00:12:38,932 --> 00:12:40,977
Using Pepe as a meme.
That's cool, you know.
264
00:12:41,412 --> 00:12:42,631
"Meme."
265
00:12:42,674 --> 00:12:44,807
I didn't even know
what a meme was
266
00:12:44,851 --> 00:12:47,331
or I don't even still know
if I'm saying that correctly,
267
00:12:47,375 --> 00:12:50,378
but it was through Pepe
that I learned what a meme was.
268
00:12:51,988 --> 00:12:53,903
[calm music]
269
00:12:53,947 --> 00:12:55,383
[creaking]
270
00:13:00,127 --> 00:13:01,476
[birds chirping]
271
00:13:03,043 --> 00:13:04,696
[wind chimes tinkling]
272
00:13:04,740 --> 00:13:06,307
[Dr. Blackmore] It's hard to remember what I first thought
273
00:13:06,350 --> 00:13:07,699
when I saw Pepe the Frog.
274
00:13:07,743 --> 00:13:09,614
But I think
I kind of imagined, like,
275
00:13:09,658 --> 00:13:13,314
in my student days,
these guys hanging out with a...
276
00:13:13,357 --> 00:13:15,882
a spliff and having a nice time.
277
00:13:15,925 --> 00:13:18,319
And he was just rather
sort of hopeless and sweet
278
00:13:18,362 --> 00:13:21,104
and I just thought, "Aw, mm."
279
00:13:21,148 --> 00:13:22,279
[Dr. Blackmore]
Chick, chick, chick!
280
00:13:22,323 --> 00:13:23,933
Chickens, come on!
281
00:13:23,977 --> 00:13:25,413
[Dr. Blackmore] The whole idea
of memes comes from
282
00:13:25,456 --> 00:13:29,069
Richard Dawkins' 1976 book,
The Selfish Gene.
283
00:13:29,112 --> 00:13:30,548
Most of the book is about
284
00:13:30,592 --> 00:13:32,986
what he called
"Universal Darwinism,"
285
00:13:33,029 --> 00:13:36,511
which said all of biology
is driven by genes,
286
00:13:36,554 --> 00:13:38,948
but culture is driven by memes.
287
00:13:40,820 --> 00:13:42,430
He said, look around you
288
00:13:42,473 --> 00:13:46,042
and you'll see floating about
in the primeval soup of culture
289
00:13:46,086 --> 00:13:48,175
is information
copied by imitation
290
00:13:48,218 --> 00:13:49,350
from person to person.
291
00:13:50,481 --> 00:13:52,309
So that would include chairs,
292
00:13:52,919 --> 00:13:54,529
trousers,
293
00:13:54,572 --> 00:13:56,009
hairstyles.
294
00:13:56,052 --> 00:13:58,489
All of these things
are only here
295
00:13:58,533 --> 00:14:00,013
because humans have copied them
296
00:14:00,056 --> 00:14:02,580
and the ones around us
are the winners
297
00:14:02,624 --> 00:14:04,756
in an evolutionary battle.
298
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,151
And then, gradually came
the concept of Internet memes.
299
00:14:09,805 --> 00:14:12,286
[Dr. Blackmore]
And people can easily see
300
00:14:12,329 --> 00:14:13,896
that process happening...
301
00:14:13,940 --> 00:14:14,897
with Pepe.
302
00:14:20,250 --> 00:14:22,296
Pepe is a wonderful example
of a meme
303
00:14:22,339 --> 00:14:24,602
that escaped out there
into the memosphere
304
00:14:26,256 --> 00:14:29,259
and suffered all the things
you'd expect of a meme.
305
00:14:33,133 --> 00:14:35,831
[Dale] Pepe,
it's just folds upon folds.
306
00:14:35,875 --> 00:14:37,789
Um...
307
00:14:37,833 --> 00:14:41,445
[Dale] The Pepe technique
is to draw too many lines.
308
00:14:41,489 --> 00:14:44,274
There's another fold
and then another fold.
309
00:14:44,318 --> 00:14:47,103
And, like, these...
these, like, lumps.
310
00:14:47,147 --> 00:14:50,150
And he looks really cracked out,
but that's the idea.
311
00:14:50,193 --> 00:14:52,979
It's like steering
into that mistake.
312
00:14:53,022 --> 00:14:55,329
He also symbolizes
steering into the mistake
313
00:14:55,372 --> 00:14:57,200
of staying
in your mom's basement.
314
00:15:00,508 --> 00:15:03,554
[Dale] I saw Boy's Club
around 2007 or so,
315
00:15:03,598 --> 00:15:04,947
kind of when
he was first posting it
316
00:15:04,991 --> 00:15:06,557
on the Internet.
317
00:15:06,601 --> 00:15:08,777
Then it just kept appearing
in message boards.
318
00:15:09,821 --> 00:15:10,910
"Feels good, man."
319
00:15:12,389 --> 00:15:13,956
In that little story,
320
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,612
he's owning the fact
that he's this weird guy.
321
00:15:17,655 --> 00:15:19,440
That moment of owning
your loserdom,
322
00:15:19,483 --> 00:15:21,703
like owning your weirdness,
right? It's like...
323
00:15:21,746 --> 00:15:23,357
perfect 4chan ethics.
324
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:24,793
[keyboard clacking]
325
00:15:27,622 --> 00:15:29,015
[Dale] Christopher Poole.
326
00:15:29,058 --> 00:15:32,105
He was 14 years old,
living with his mom,
327
00:15:32,148 --> 00:15:36,239
spending all his time indoors,
on the Internet, and...
328
00:15:36,283 --> 00:15:39,895
He created this crazy monster
in his basement.
329
00:15:39,939 --> 00:15:41,853
[Christopher] Now, over
7 million people are using it,
330
00:15:41,897 --> 00:15:44,552
contributing over 700,000 posts per day.
331
00:15:44,595 --> 00:15:48,034
And we've gone
from 1 board to 48 boards.
332
00:15:48,077 --> 00:15:50,297
[suspenseful music]
333
00:15:52,299 --> 00:15:54,866
So 4chan,
just the way that it functioned,
334
00:15:54,910 --> 00:15:58,870
was super conducive
to creating memes.
335
00:15:58,914 --> 00:16:00,437
[Dale] The way 4chan works
is that
336
00:16:00,481 --> 00:16:02,613
it's a Darwinian competition
for attention.
337
00:16:02,657 --> 00:16:04,267
So you have a post.
338
00:16:04,311 --> 00:16:06,704
And if the post gets
a lot of replies,
339
00:16:06,748 --> 00:16:08,271
it floats to the top.
340
00:16:08,315 --> 00:16:10,012
And if no one replies,
it sinks to the bottom
341
00:16:10,056 --> 00:16:12,188
and quickly dies.
342
00:16:12,232 --> 00:16:14,277
It's a winning
and losing system.
343
00:16:14,321 --> 00:16:15,539
And it's a lot like
a video game.
344
00:16:17,150 --> 00:16:18,673
[Dale] There were all these
adolescent boys
345
00:16:18,716 --> 00:16:20,849
trying to own each other
in the competition.
346
00:16:22,155 --> 00:16:23,808
-And so it became this...
-[whooping]
347
00:16:23,852 --> 00:16:26,594
[Dale] ...culture of saying
the most offensive thing.
348
00:16:28,726 --> 00:16:33,340
And so, like, Pepe kind of melts into that community.
349
00:16:33,383 --> 00:16:34,906
And all of the stuff
that just exploded
350
00:16:34,950 --> 00:16:36,647
out of the culture
four or five years later
351
00:16:36,691 --> 00:16:39,085
were being invented there
by all these clever people
352
00:16:39,128 --> 00:16:41,391
and they were all anonymous.
353
00:16:41,435 --> 00:16:44,133
[keyboard clacking]
354
00:16:46,918 --> 00:16:48,920
[classical music playing]
355
00:16:53,099 --> 00:16:57,190
[Pizza]On 4chan, you're talking to another text box
356
00:16:57,233 --> 00:16:59,931
so you're free to express
those kind of secret ideas
357
00:16:59,975 --> 00:17:01,585
that people have
358
00:17:01,629 --> 00:17:03,065
that they don't feel comfortable expressing in real life.
359
00:17:07,939 --> 00:17:10,072
I posted Pepes all the time.
360
00:17:10,116 --> 00:17:12,770
To not post Pepe
would be strange
361
00:17:12,814 --> 00:17:15,425
because it's just...
It's the meme.
362
00:17:16,122 --> 00:17:18,515
Post, send. Boom.
363
00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:20,256
[Pizza] So there I am
right there.
364
00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:24,173
It's hard to say why Pepe
gained popularity so fast.
365
00:17:24,217 --> 00:17:28,264
You could say it was just
an easily relatable image.
366
00:17:28,308 --> 00:17:31,354
I have my own collection. I have my reaction image folder
367
00:17:31,398 --> 00:17:33,748
filled with Pepe
and all the derivatives.
368
00:17:36,446 --> 00:17:39,188
The term was like,
"We feel alone together."
369
00:17:39,232 --> 00:17:40,668
[Dale]Um, that was their idea.
370
00:17:43,758 --> 00:17:47,066
As it ages,
it just gets more desperate.
371
00:17:47,109 --> 00:17:50,112
They would describe themselves
as NEET.
372
00:17:50,156 --> 00:17:54,116
NEET stands for Not in Education Employment or Training.
373
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,163
The idea was that
they were trying to find a word
374
00:17:57,206 --> 00:17:59,208
that described their situation,
375
00:17:59,252 --> 00:18:02,037
for these sort of, like,
masses of kids
376
00:18:02,081 --> 00:18:04,953
who are just unemployed or just
kind of dropped out of life.
377
00:18:04,996 --> 00:18:07,347
I think the best thing would be
to start with a job.
378
00:18:07,390 --> 00:18:09,131
-No. No!
-[Dr. Phil] Yeah, absolutely.
379
00:18:09,175 --> 00:18:10,306
She needs a job.
380
00:18:10,350 --> 00:18:14,658
No!
[sobbing]
381
00:18:14,702 --> 00:18:17,400
[Dale] So 4chan really comes
to embody that culture
382
00:18:17,444 --> 00:18:19,968
of checking out and living
in your mom's basement.
383
00:18:27,106 --> 00:18:29,673
It started in 2003
and still exists.
384
00:18:29,717 --> 00:18:32,198
So imagine people
being on there ten years,
385
00:18:32,241 --> 00:18:33,938
like it becoming a lifestyle.
386
00:18:39,205 --> 00:18:41,381
[knife thudding]
387
00:18:53,088 --> 00:18:54,829
A lot of people are talking
that they have
388
00:18:54,872 --> 00:18:57,788
super hot basement layers
where they get to NEET it up.
389
00:18:57,832 --> 00:18:59,921
Well, I mean, basically,
nobody's really touching my game
390
00:18:59,964 --> 00:19:01,227
right now, you know? So...
391
00:19:01,270 --> 00:19:03,968
Got the Primo couch bed
392
00:19:04,012 --> 00:19:06,188
and I just kick this shit
all over the place
393
00:19:06,232 --> 00:19:07,755
because I just don't give a fuck
about anything.
394
00:19:07,798 --> 00:19:08,799
And, uh...
395
00:19:09,844 --> 00:19:10,975
It's... it's a life.
396
00:19:13,195 --> 00:19:14,805
[chuckles]
397
00:19:14,849 --> 00:19:16,807
[Mills] I think I probably saw
images of Pepe first
398
00:19:16,851 --> 00:19:19,723
on the fitness board of 4chan.
399
00:19:19,767 --> 00:19:22,073
You know,
this frog was so prevalent.
400
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:27,122
What does Pepe mean to me?
401
00:19:28,297 --> 00:19:29,429
What does he mean to me?
402
00:19:32,214 --> 00:19:33,302
He's a frog.
403
00:19:36,262 --> 00:19:37,567
He's a sad frog.
404
00:19:39,265 --> 00:19:41,615
Sad frog.
405
00:19:41,658 --> 00:19:44,313
[Mills] Now on 4chan,
the quote-unquote sad frog
406
00:19:44,357 --> 00:19:49,100
became the most popular image
for displaying sadness.
407
00:19:49,144 --> 00:19:52,713
There were other images that
would describe that feeling.
408
00:19:52,756 --> 00:19:55,368
[Mills] You have things
like a picture of Keanu Reeves
409
00:19:55,411 --> 00:19:57,108
sitting on a bench.
410
00:19:57,152 --> 00:19:59,763
But maybe
he's just deep in thought.
411
00:19:59,807 --> 00:20:01,417
[horse neighs]
412
00:20:01,461 --> 00:20:04,246
[Mills] That sad frog.
You knew what it was about.
413
00:20:04,290 --> 00:20:05,856
Nothing else needed
to be said there.
414
00:20:07,902 --> 00:20:09,686
Pepe the sad frog.
415
00:20:11,122 --> 00:20:12,254
Pepe.
416
00:20:12,298 --> 00:20:13,473
[woman #2] Pepe what?
417
00:20:13,516 --> 00:20:15,257
-The sad frog.
-[woman #2] The sad frog?
418
00:20:15,301 --> 00:20:17,259
-Pepe the sad frog.
-[woman #2] What's that?
419
00:20:17,303 --> 00:20:18,913
[EKG flatlining]
420
00:20:18,956 --> 00:20:20,871
You know, it wasn't something
that's really circulated heavily
421
00:20:20,915 --> 00:20:21,959
on, like, Facebook
422
00:20:22,003 --> 00:20:23,831
or any of that stuff
at the time.
423
00:20:23,874 --> 00:20:27,400
[Mills] Pepe just kinda felt
like uniquely 4chan.
424
00:20:27,443 --> 00:20:28,749
[robotic man voice]
Feels bad man.
425
00:20:28,792 --> 00:20:30,446
I didn't know
about the Boy's Club comic
426
00:20:30,490 --> 00:20:31,534
or anything like that.
427
00:20:31,578 --> 00:20:33,928
I did not know
who Matt Furie was.
428
00:20:33,971 --> 00:20:36,322
[Mills] Even after
I learned about Boy's Club,
429
00:20:36,365 --> 00:20:38,324
I was like, "Oh, they're making a Pepe comic.
430
00:20:38,367 --> 00:20:39,629
Oh, that's cool."
431
00:20:45,592 --> 00:20:47,594
[upbeat music]
432
00:20:58,387 --> 00:21:00,433
[upbeat music continues]
433
00:21:01,869 --> 00:21:02,913
[chuckles]
434
00:21:11,792 --> 00:21:13,315
That's the story, um...
435
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,622
[Peder] It's about
somewhere in the future.
436
00:21:15,665 --> 00:21:19,626
The mutants have taken over
and they make new children.
437
00:21:19,669 --> 00:21:22,019
I like this style of gun.
[laughs]
438
00:21:22,977 --> 00:21:25,022
Are you, uh...
439
00:21:25,066 --> 00:21:26,981
actually the guy that made...
440
00:21:27,024 --> 00:21:29,244
-that made Pepe? Yeah.
-Yeah, yeah.
441
00:21:29,288 --> 00:21:30,376
[Matt chuckles]
442
00:21:30,419 --> 00:21:32,291
But it must suck for you
that it, uh...
443
00:21:33,988 --> 00:21:35,206
That he has become, uh,
444
00:21:35,250 --> 00:21:37,731
that he become hijacked by...
by 4chan.
445
00:21:37,774 --> 00:21:40,951
I mean, it definitely sucks,
but, nothing's forever, right?
446
00:21:41,604 --> 00:21:42,605
[Matt chuckles]
447
00:21:44,694 --> 00:21:46,870
[Matt] I'm just a spectator
to how things
448
00:21:46,914 --> 00:21:50,004
kinda mutate and evolve
on the Internet.
449
00:21:50,047 --> 00:21:53,486
You kinda see everything
as some big joke,
450
00:21:53,529 --> 00:21:57,141
but it's like kind of a window into this kinda like dark place.
451
00:21:58,186 --> 00:21:59,361
[shutter clicks]
452
00:21:59,405 --> 00:22:00,710
[indistinct chatter]
453
00:22:00,754 --> 00:22:02,973
[Matt] I'll draw you
a little Pepe.
454
00:22:03,017 --> 00:22:05,236
[Matt] People on the Internet
have their own characters
455
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,456
that Pepe was interacting with.
456
00:22:07,500 --> 00:22:09,502
There's one where
he's interacting with this guy.
457
00:22:09,545 --> 00:22:11,460
I think his name is Wojack.
458
00:22:11,504 --> 00:22:13,897
[clanking]
459
00:22:13,941 --> 00:22:15,812
I would see pictures of Pepe,
460
00:22:15,856 --> 00:22:20,077
like, hugging this stark white
sad looking guy.
461
00:22:20,121 --> 00:22:21,383
And I was like, "What is that?"
462
00:22:21,427 --> 00:22:24,343
[somber music]
463
00:22:24,386 --> 00:22:26,649
They call him, you know,
The Feels Guy or...
464
00:22:26,693 --> 00:22:31,219
Wojack is the proper term.
465
00:22:31,262 --> 00:22:35,441
[Mills] He was for expressing
an unpleasant feeling.
466
00:22:35,484 --> 00:22:37,617
I'd be sitting there
and kinda be tense from anxiety
467
00:22:37,660 --> 00:22:38,705
kind of, like...
[inhales sharply]
468
00:22:38,748 --> 00:22:39,967
You know, and being...
like that.
469
00:22:40,010 --> 00:22:41,621
And I go on the board,
I'd be like, "Okay.
470
00:22:41,664 --> 00:22:42,752
These are my people."
471
00:22:44,537 --> 00:22:46,147
[Mills]We're all over the world but we all have
472
00:22:46,190 --> 00:22:48,105
these feelings of anxiety
and everything together
473
00:22:48,149 --> 00:22:49,846
and it's like a group therapy
on the Internet.
474
00:22:52,458 --> 00:22:54,764
Even when I was at work,
we had these security cameras.
475
00:22:54,808 --> 00:22:56,853
I would duck behind,
like, a stack of crates
476
00:22:56,897 --> 00:22:59,465
and quick to be, like,
"You dumb idiots."
477
00:22:59,508 --> 00:23:01,249
[Mills] Then I'd check,
like, 10-15 minutes later,
478
00:23:01,292 --> 00:23:02,990
you know, to see
who's replying to me,
479
00:23:03,033 --> 00:23:06,123
and I would face an onslaught
of people just saying
480
00:23:06,167 --> 00:23:08,256
I was the most
hideous man alive.
481
00:23:08,299 --> 00:23:10,084
I would, you know, wear that as a badge of honor.
482
00:23:10,127 --> 00:23:12,826
I'd be like,
"Yes. I'm a true 4chan guy.
483
00:23:12,869 --> 00:23:15,959
I'm a true social reject.
I'm a true freak.
484
00:23:16,003 --> 00:23:17,787
Yeah, you're darn tooting."
485
00:23:23,010 --> 00:23:25,534
I'm a latecomer to Pepe.
486
00:23:25,578 --> 00:23:27,580
Uh, probably because
he's not my type.
487
00:23:27,623 --> 00:23:29,364
[laughs]
488
00:23:29,408 --> 00:23:33,412
[Dr. Aleks] I came to Pepe
after he had gone dark.
489
00:23:35,501 --> 00:23:37,285
Pepe is a sad frog.
490
00:23:37,328 --> 00:23:40,027
He's never happy.
He's just sort of miserable.
491
00:23:40,070 --> 00:23:41,985
[thunder crashing]
492
00:23:45,772 --> 00:23:48,862
And I think,
for a huge population,
493
00:23:48,905 --> 00:23:51,342
online and offline,
we're not really allowed
494
00:23:51,386 --> 00:23:54,258
to express sorrow
or sadness or grief.
495
00:23:54,302 --> 00:23:57,784
And this sad little frog
arrives online
496
00:23:57,827 --> 00:24:02,049
in the midst of the push
to commodify the Internet.
497
00:24:03,703 --> 00:24:05,269
[Dr. Aleks] What was going on
at that point
498
00:24:05,313 --> 00:24:07,837
was that everybody
was super damn positive.
499
00:24:07,881 --> 00:24:10,971
The people were suddenly able
to make cash money
500
00:24:11,014 --> 00:24:12,886
out of their image
501
00:24:12,929 --> 00:24:15,584
which meant that they had to be, like, totally rad,
502
00:24:15,628 --> 00:24:19,327
happy, fitspo,
my best-self thing.
503
00:24:19,370 --> 00:24:23,287
And in drops Pepe...
ripe for the taking.
504
00:24:23,331 --> 00:24:24,854
Hey, guys. It's me, Lily.
505
00:24:24,898 --> 00:24:27,335
[upbeat music]
506
00:24:27,378 --> 00:24:30,817
Today I'm going to be doing
a Pepe transformation.
507
00:24:35,517 --> 00:24:38,825
Pepe starts to percolate
into another population.
508
00:24:38,868 --> 00:24:41,958
We've got a lot more women,
a lot more girls.
509
00:24:42,002 --> 00:24:43,699
[Dr. Aleks] They were sharing
their own Pepe.
510
00:24:45,222 --> 00:24:47,877
Hey, guys. I just googled
what a meme was
511
00:24:47,921 --> 00:24:51,359
and I think I'm in love
with memes!
512
00:24:51,402 --> 00:24:54,101
Pepe... is the best.
513
00:24:54,797 --> 00:24:56,364
You draw the head,
514
00:24:57,539 --> 00:25:01,151
which is just like a butt.
515
00:25:01,195 --> 00:25:04,720
[Mills] Things begin to spiral
really out of control.
516
00:25:04,764 --> 00:25:09,464
A couple of celebrities,
Nicki Minaj and Katy Perry,
517
00:25:09,508 --> 00:25:12,815
they had posted on Instagram
a couple of Pepe images.
518
00:25:14,687 --> 00:25:16,471
[airplane whooshing]
519
00:25:19,387 --> 00:25:20,606
[Mills]A lot of people see it for the first time.
520
00:25:20,649 --> 00:25:21,911
They wonder, "Who is this frog?
521
00:25:21,955 --> 00:25:23,434
What is this frog?
What is this?"
522
00:25:23,478 --> 00:25:25,306
I want to see
some more of that.
523
00:25:25,349 --> 00:25:29,528
They start making, like,
a migration over to 4chan.
524
00:25:29,571 --> 00:25:31,399
[Mills] Young women
in particular,
525
00:25:31,442 --> 00:25:35,185
downloading Pepe images , using them for their own likes.
526
00:25:35,229 --> 00:25:37,100
And that was seen as...
527
00:25:37,144 --> 00:25:38,188
despicable.
528
00:25:38,232 --> 00:25:40,277
I love Pepe so much.
529
00:25:40,321 --> 00:25:42,541
The true Pepe is this Pepe.
530
00:25:42,584 --> 00:25:45,021
[girl #1]Pepe has green skin. It's so beautiful.
531
00:25:45,065 --> 00:25:46,936
It's different from frog.
532
00:25:46,980 --> 00:25:49,199
Pepe green is special green.
533
00:25:49,243 --> 00:25:51,288
[eerie music]
534
00:25:51,332 --> 00:25:53,464
[Mills] It seemed to me,
like, invasion.
535
00:25:53,508 --> 00:25:55,336
You had people
that would come on and say,
536
00:25:55,379 --> 00:25:57,425
"Why are all you
virgin losers here?"
537
00:25:57,468 --> 00:25:58,818
You know,
"Where's the Pepe pictures at?
538
00:25:58,861 --> 00:25:59,906
Where are they at?"
539
00:25:59,949 --> 00:26:01,690
[girl #2] I strive to be Pepe.
540
00:26:03,387 --> 00:26:05,868
Just kidding.
541
00:26:05,912 --> 00:26:08,697
I hate Pepe the Frog.
542
00:26:08,741 --> 00:26:10,481
Pe... whatever his name is.
543
00:26:10,525 --> 00:26:11,831
Peep, Pepe.
544
00:26:11,874 --> 00:26:14,834
Either way, he's stupid.
545
00:26:14,877 --> 00:26:18,446
And I don't really know
why I made my face green
546
00:26:18,489 --> 00:26:20,622
to prove the point
that I hate Pepe.
547
00:26:20,666 --> 00:26:22,972
But let me prove it by saying,
548
00:26:23,016 --> 00:26:24,583
"I hate you, Pepe."
549
00:26:24,626 --> 00:26:26,759
I'm going to chop your head off.
550
00:26:26,802 --> 00:26:27,934
Your little...
551
00:26:27,977 --> 00:26:31,720
Your little froggie head off
like this.
552
00:26:31,764 --> 00:26:33,853
It was serious
to a lot of people, like,
553
00:26:33,896 --> 00:26:36,203
"This is the symbol
of our culture."
554
00:26:37,900 --> 00:26:41,382
[Mills] And it really was turning into a total Pepe Fest.
555
00:26:53,176 --> 00:26:56,310
[Matt] Ooh, nice.
556
00:26:56,353 --> 00:26:59,792
[Matt] Pepe was just really turning into a thing and, um...
557
00:26:59,835 --> 00:27:01,489
my buddy Skinner was, like,
558
00:27:01,532 --> 00:27:03,883
"Hey you should do
a clothing line."
559
00:27:05,188 --> 00:27:07,277
[fanfare music]
560
00:27:09,758 --> 00:27:12,500
[camera shutter clicking]
561
00:27:12,543 --> 00:27:15,634
Yeah, it was just kinda funny
to make something official
562
00:27:15,677 --> 00:27:18,549
out of something that's so,
kind of, like...
563
00:27:18,593 --> 00:27:20,073
bootlegged on the Internet.
564
00:27:22,858 --> 00:27:24,425
I drew all these...
565
00:27:24,468 --> 00:27:27,428
goofy-ass Pepes
that were kinda based on...
566
00:27:27,471 --> 00:27:30,823
just whatever random nonsense
was out there on the Internet.
567
00:27:30,866 --> 00:27:33,303
I like this one
with the little cigarette.
568
00:27:33,347 --> 00:27:35,784
[Matt] This one's
particularly weird.
569
00:27:35,828 --> 00:27:38,395
And this one is just...
[blows raspberry]
570
00:27:38,439 --> 00:27:41,355
I like that. That's a
very stripped down Pepe.
571
00:27:41,398 --> 00:27:44,358
The sad frog golf shirt.
572
00:27:44,401 --> 00:27:46,665
You can have
a pasta meal with your family
573
00:27:46,708 --> 00:27:47,709
wearing this one.
574
00:27:50,930 --> 00:27:53,106
Pepe was, like, a famous meme.
575
00:27:53,149 --> 00:27:56,022
[Chris] And my friend, Jay,
he got a tattoo gun.
576
00:27:56,065 --> 00:27:58,328
He just had it set up
in his kitchen.
577
00:27:58,372 --> 00:28:00,200
And so one night,
578
00:28:00,243 --> 00:28:02,028
I think it was just
completely spontaneous.
579
00:28:02,071 --> 00:28:05,422
We're just like,
"Oh, let's get Pepe tattoos."
580
00:28:05,466 --> 00:28:08,643
It's like very little thought
goes into this at all, you know.
581
00:28:08,687 --> 00:28:09,688
[chuckles]
582
00:28:11,124 --> 00:28:12,299
[Chris] We just thought
it was funny
583
00:28:12,342 --> 00:28:13,779
to have a Pepe tattoo
584
00:28:13,822 --> 00:28:15,781
and Matt was there
so it was like a tribute
585
00:28:15,824 --> 00:28:17,260
to my friend.
586
00:28:17,304 --> 00:28:18,522
I didn't know at the time
587
00:28:18,566 --> 00:28:21,482
but I got it, like,
below my sleeve here.
588
00:28:21,525 --> 00:28:24,572
[Chris] That would kind of, uh,
come back to bite me.
589
00:28:25,791 --> 00:28:28,750
As the Pepe defense was building
590
00:28:28,794 --> 00:28:31,448
to try and steer people away
from using Pepe
591
00:28:31,492 --> 00:28:34,756
for their own, you know,
normie usage...
592
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,587
that spawned a lot of angry,
raging Pepes.
593
00:28:39,630 --> 00:28:41,763
But then,
that fateful day occurred
594
00:28:41,807 --> 00:28:46,246
where there was a YouTube video
of screaming frogs.
595
00:28:46,289 --> 00:28:48,204
[man #1] Say something
for the camera.
596
00:28:48,248 --> 00:28:50,903
Look at the thing blow up
like a balloon.
597
00:28:50,946 --> 00:28:53,122
[squeaky scream]
598
00:28:57,431 --> 00:29:00,390
[scream continues]
599
00:29:00,434 --> 00:29:02,610
[Mills] They have
a high pitched scream
600
00:29:02,653 --> 00:29:03,916
which sounded a lot like...
601
00:29:03,959 --> 00:29:06,875
-[imitates frog scream]
-[squeaky scream]
602
00:29:10,923 --> 00:29:12,925
[Mills] And it became
like this battle cry.
603
00:29:14,970 --> 00:29:18,408
[screaming]
604
00:29:18,452 --> 00:29:19,888
[Mills]There would be somebody who would be coming in
605
00:29:19,932 --> 00:29:22,064
from Instagram.
606
00:29:22,108 --> 00:29:24,850
Sort of out themselves,
maybe a sex-haver
607
00:29:24,893 --> 00:29:26,503
or a woman.
608
00:29:26,547 --> 00:29:30,072
A neurotypical,
socially well-adjusted person.
609
00:29:30,116 --> 00:29:33,075
Once you kinda get that seed
planted in the head of, like,
610
00:29:33,119 --> 00:29:35,861
you know, the popular kids
and look...
611
00:29:35,904 --> 00:29:37,123
look how they're living,
612
00:29:37,166 --> 00:29:38,777
then look at you, you know.
You're this...
613
00:29:38,820 --> 00:29:40,735
You're this... slug.
614
00:29:40,779 --> 00:29:42,215
[Mills] All you normies
have been bullying us
615
00:29:42,258 --> 00:29:43,738
our whole lives.
616
00:29:43,782 --> 00:29:45,827
I'll never be one of you
disgusting normies.
617
00:29:45,871 --> 00:29:48,874
Fuck... normies.
618
00:29:48,917 --> 00:29:51,006
[suspenseful music]
619
00:29:51,050 --> 00:29:53,530
[screaming]
620
00:29:55,794 --> 00:29:57,796
[eerie music]
621
00:30:01,712 --> 00:30:04,063
You know, these were a group
of disempowered men
622
00:30:04,106 --> 00:30:06,195
who had retreated
into fantasy worlds.
623
00:30:06,239 --> 00:30:07,849
[growling]
624
00:30:07,893 --> 00:30:10,678
[Dale]That was their last place of retreat, in a sense.
625
00:30:10,721 --> 00:30:14,725
And so, having women there
was what they didn't want
626
00:30:14,769 --> 00:30:17,467
because that was a symbol
of their defeat in real life.
627
00:30:26,433 --> 00:30:27,434
Ursula.
628
00:30:28,478 --> 00:30:29,828
Hey.
629
00:30:29,871 --> 00:30:32,265
-Is that Twilight Sparkle?
-Mm-hmm!
630
00:30:32,308 --> 00:30:34,136
-Is that her name?
-Yeah!
631
00:30:34,180 --> 00:30:37,226
She's like,
"Ursula, I'm going to help you."
632
00:30:37,270 --> 00:30:39,620
[Ursula] Aw!
633
00:30:39,663 --> 00:30:41,404
-Okay.
-That's so cute.
634
00:30:41,448 --> 00:30:44,233
That one says,
"A pocket mouse sleeps...
635
00:30:44,277 --> 00:30:46,279
-safely it in its nest."
-That's so cute.
636
00:30:46,322 --> 00:30:47,976
-It's a little mouse.
-Oh.
637
00:30:50,761 --> 00:30:52,502
[Matt]
People would just email me
638
00:30:52,546 --> 00:30:55,027
fucked up pictures of Pepe
639
00:30:55,070 --> 00:30:57,464
and it didn't really shock me.
640
00:30:57,507 --> 00:31:00,728
I'd be more shocked by,
you know, people actually...
641
00:31:00,771 --> 00:31:03,905
expressing some form
of cuteness or love
642
00:31:03,949 --> 00:31:07,039
like this other stuff is just...
It's just garbage.
643
00:31:08,823 --> 00:31:10,303
[Matt] I think the weird thing
644
00:31:10,346 --> 00:31:12,131
about American culture
in general is, like,
645
00:31:12,174 --> 00:31:14,220
we do kinda celebrate garbage
646
00:31:14,263 --> 00:31:17,092
and we also produce a hell
of a lot of physical garbage.
647
00:31:17,136 --> 00:31:18,267
So it's just like...
648
00:31:19,529 --> 00:31:20,879
fucking garbage world.
649
00:31:32,194 --> 00:31:33,500
[Matt]
I was definitely conscious
650
00:31:33,543 --> 00:31:35,154
of not wanting to be remembered
651
00:31:35,197 --> 00:31:37,721
as the artist that did
Boy's Club.
652
00:31:37,765 --> 00:31:41,160
So I just wanted
to keep doing other stuff.
653
00:31:41,203 --> 00:31:43,640
There's no connection
between this frog and Pepe
654
00:31:43,684 --> 00:31:46,295
other than they kinda look
like one another.
655
00:31:46,339 --> 00:31:50,473
But this is just another frog
in a different place.
656
00:31:52,606 --> 00:31:54,347
[Matt] I decided to do
a whole kids book
657
00:31:54,390 --> 00:31:57,132
that was totally wordless.
658
00:31:57,176 --> 00:32:01,049
It follows the life of this frog
and his pet rat...
659
00:32:01,093 --> 00:32:02,921
living in
a little mushroom house.
660
00:32:02,964 --> 00:32:05,097
They travel on the back
of a bike.
661
00:32:07,577 --> 00:32:10,015
[Matt]They wake up at nighttime and go exploring.
662
00:32:10,841 --> 00:32:12,626
Okay, look at me.
663
00:32:12,669 --> 00:32:14,106
[Matt] Through the forest
664
00:32:14,149 --> 00:32:17,022
then they end up
surfing on some dolphins,
665
00:32:17,065 --> 00:32:18,806
and swimming
and going underground.
666
00:32:19,850 --> 00:32:21,200
I just really went
667
00:32:21,243 --> 00:32:23,680
for the childlike wonder
with this one.
668
00:32:30,165 --> 00:32:31,601
[bicycle bell ringing]
669
00:32:34,126 --> 00:32:35,475
[Brian] The Night Riders.
670
00:32:35,518 --> 00:32:37,477
It's a work of highly skilled craftsmanship.
671
00:32:39,087 --> 00:32:40,654
It took him almost a year
to make it.
672
00:32:42,438 --> 00:32:44,875
I told him, you know,
I saw that he had that in him.
673
00:32:44,919 --> 00:32:46,399
He had a
Where the Wild Things Are
674
00:32:46,442 --> 00:32:48,575
in him, I just knew it.
675
00:32:48,618 --> 00:32:50,055
We were working on
The Night Riders
676
00:32:50,098 --> 00:32:53,797
before all this insane
Pepe stuff started to happen.
677
00:32:53,841 --> 00:32:55,669
[Brian] Pepe's really just
the tip of the iceberg
678
00:32:55,712 --> 00:33:00,152
for the kind of art
that Matt's capable of making.
679
00:33:00,195 --> 00:33:02,458
[Brian] How come the dragon
doesn't have wings?
680
00:33:02,502 --> 00:33:03,982
[Matt] It's more of
a land dragon,
681
00:33:04,025 --> 00:33:06,071
than a dragon of the air
or a dragon of the sea.
682
00:33:06,114 --> 00:33:08,290
So he's... He's a land dragon.
683
00:33:10,162 --> 00:33:12,077
[Brian] The characters
are of different species,
684
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,036
but they seem like friends
from the neighborhood.
685
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:16,777
We can tell they love each other
686
00:33:16,820 --> 00:33:19,562
and the book is built toward
687
00:33:19,606 --> 00:33:23,436
a bunch of nocturnal animals
experiencing a sunrise.
688
00:33:23,479 --> 00:33:25,481
[seagulls squawking]
689
00:33:28,702 --> 00:33:29,964
The end.
690
00:33:31,444 --> 00:33:33,446
[crickets chirping]
691
00:33:36,101 --> 00:33:38,581
[Dale] Pepe had escaped
and he was roaming around.
692
00:33:40,105 --> 00:33:41,671
And, like,
it was fun for a while.
693
00:33:41,715 --> 00:33:42,759
[chuckles]
694
00:33:42,803 --> 00:33:44,500
[Dale] Um, until, uh...
695
00:33:44,544 --> 00:33:45,675
-[rattles]
-[shatters]
696
00:33:45,719 --> 00:33:47,286
[Dale] ...it wasn't anymore.
[laughs]
697
00:33:48,548 --> 00:33:49,592
And on 4chan...
698
00:33:50,506 --> 00:33:51,942
whenever they thought
699
00:33:51,986 --> 00:33:54,380
quote-unquote normies,
sort of outsiders or other sites
700
00:33:54,423 --> 00:33:55,903
were stealing their memes,
701
00:33:55,946 --> 00:33:58,906
they would try to make them
as offensive as possible.
702
00:33:58,949 --> 00:34:01,300
[Dale] It's like a classic
punk response.
703
00:34:01,343 --> 00:34:03,302
Literally armored
like a punk, right?
704
00:34:03,345 --> 00:34:04,564
And they're like,
"It's so offensive, I...
705
00:34:04,607 --> 00:34:05,913
It can't be co-opted."
706
00:34:08,524 --> 00:34:11,440
[Dale]So they put him next to the Trade Towers disintegrating.
707
00:34:11,484 --> 00:34:15,140
They put swastikas all over him and Nazified Pepe.
708
00:34:15,183 --> 00:34:17,098
And it sort of snowballs.
709
00:34:17,142 --> 00:34:20,101
Back then, it was just the most offensive thing you could do.
710
00:34:20,145 --> 00:34:22,147
But it now reads
as a weird prologue
711
00:34:22,190 --> 00:34:24,584
to when the irony
kind of melted away.
712
00:34:27,978 --> 00:34:29,980
There are people
on these platforms who believe
713
00:34:30,024 --> 00:34:33,549
that because you've couched
your intention in a joke,
714
00:34:33,593 --> 00:34:35,464
that you can disavow it
when people come asking.
715
00:34:35,508 --> 00:34:37,510
That's right.
That's exactly right.
716
00:34:37,553 --> 00:34:39,947
So you create this ambiguity
so there's no way for you
717
00:34:39,990 --> 00:34:41,296
to mean
what you really mean ever.
718
00:34:41,340 --> 00:34:43,255
Yeah.
719
00:34:43,298 --> 00:34:45,474
I think what's appealing
about Pepe
720
00:34:45,518 --> 00:34:48,303
is that he combines
this impossible mixture
721
00:34:48,347 --> 00:34:50,218
of innocence and evil.
722
00:34:50,262 --> 00:34:53,091
[Joel] Like he has this kind
of knowing smile
723
00:34:53,134 --> 00:34:56,746
while he's performing acts
that are really atrocious.
724
00:34:56,790 --> 00:34:58,922
It sort of fulfills the idea
725
00:34:58,966 --> 00:35:01,708
that we can say
these terrible things
726
00:35:01,751 --> 00:35:04,624
and just mean them as jokes
all the time.
727
00:35:04,667 --> 00:35:06,321
They're always just jokes
all the time
728
00:35:06,365 --> 00:35:08,932
and you can't prove otherwise.
729
00:35:08,976 --> 00:35:10,630
[Joel] We're just a bunch
of kids in our underwear.
730
00:35:10,673 --> 00:35:13,459
It's harmless.
No one really means it.
731
00:35:13,502 --> 00:35:16,288
The problem, I think, is that
it's really demonstrable
732
00:35:16,331 --> 00:35:20,596
in the worst cases
that this isn't funny.
733
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,424
You know, it's not funny
when people die.
734
00:35:22,468 --> 00:35:23,512
[sirens blaring]
735
00:35:23,556 --> 00:35:25,253
[woman on radio]
CPR in progress.
736
00:35:25,297 --> 00:35:27,647
[man on radio] Okay, we got
another gunshot victim at...
737
00:35:27,690 --> 00:35:29,649
Shots fired! Shots fired!
738
00:35:29,692 --> 00:35:32,130
A black car pulls up and stops
739
00:35:32,173 --> 00:35:33,261
and he rolls down the window...
740
00:35:33,305 --> 00:35:34,741
I just saw four gunshots.
741
00:35:34,784 --> 00:35:36,264
[reporter #1]
A Friday night rampage
742
00:35:36,308 --> 00:35:38,440
in this bustling college town
743
00:35:38,484 --> 00:35:41,226
after two gun battles
with police and a chase,
744
00:35:41,269 --> 00:35:42,575
seven people were dead.
745
00:35:42,618 --> 00:35:44,054
Twenty-two year old
Elliott Rodger
746
00:35:44,098 --> 00:35:45,665
believed to be the gunman.
747
00:35:45,708 --> 00:35:47,580
Tonight investigators are
pouring over videos
748
00:35:47,623 --> 00:35:49,234
Rodger posted online.
749
00:35:49,277 --> 00:35:51,061
There was sort of this intense
750
00:35:51,105 --> 00:35:53,194
pain that you could see
where he was
751
00:35:53,238 --> 00:35:54,848
really divorced from reality.
752
00:35:54,891 --> 00:35:57,155
[Dale] Like he did
the shooting spree in a car,
753
00:35:57,198 --> 00:35:59,026
a fancy car his parents
had bought for him
754
00:35:59,069 --> 00:36:01,202
to boost his confidence.
755
00:36:01,246 --> 00:36:02,725
[neighbor] He didn't even
make an effort.
756
00:36:02,769 --> 00:36:05,554
Didn't talk to anybody.
And he was so closed off
757
00:36:05,598 --> 00:36:07,426
and it was like when he was
sitting there,
758
00:36:07,469 --> 00:36:09,819
you can just tell he's just
thinking these thoughts
759
00:36:09,863 --> 00:36:12,387
in his head the entire time.
He's just talking to himself.
760
00:36:14,128 --> 00:36:16,957
[Mills] I came on
to 4chan that day.
761
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,568
People in this environment
were starting to get whipped up
762
00:36:19,612 --> 00:36:20,961
and they're like,
"Yeah, that's right.
763
00:36:21,004 --> 00:36:22,049
You showed him who's boss."
764
00:36:22,092 --> 00:36:23,529
You know, he, he went out there.
765
00:36:23,572 --> 00:36:27,097
He stood up for being,
you know, the virgin with rage.
766
00:36:27,141 --> 00:36:30,231
The very first picture
of Elliott Rodger that I saved
767
00:36:30,275 --> 00:36:32,277
was a picture of this sort of
768
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,236
semi-transparent sobbing woman,
769
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,500
and then like three
or four Pepes with guns.
770
00:36:38,544 --> 00:36:39,849
It was like one
of the very first ones
771
00:36:39,893 --> 00:36:42,112
that like took Elliott
and put it into like a,
772
00:36:42,156 --> 00:36:43,766
sort of like a context.
773
00:36:43,810 --> 00:36:45,507
[Mills] People started
drawing Pepes
774
00:36:45,551 --> 00:36:48,771
riding around in BMWs
with Elliot Rodger.
775
00:36:48,815 --> 00:36:50,730
Yeah, I kind of get a little bit energized by it, you know.
776
00:36:50,773 --> 00:36:52,166
And it was kind of this, like,
777
00:36:52,210 --> 00:36:53,776
maybe society does need
to get flipped on its head.
778
00:36:53,820 --> 00:36:56,605
-[static]
-[radio playing]
779
00:36:59,260 --> 00:37:01,219
[upbeat music]
780
00:37:04,613 --> 00:37:07,181
Hi, Elliot Rodger.
781
00:37:08,661 --> 00:37:10,140
[Mills] I don't
condone violence, you know.
782
00:37:10,184 --> 00:37:11,751
I'm not a violence condoner.
783
00:37:11,794 --> 00:37:14,057
But, he set me off into the path
784
00:37:14,101 --> 00:37:16,103
that made me who I am today,
785
00:37:16,146 --> 00:37:17,713
and I have to acknowledge that.
786
00:37:17,757 --> 00:37:19,759
[tense music]
787
00:37:21,587 --> 00:37:24,024
-[buzzing]
-[heavy breathing]
788
00:37:24,067 --> 00:37:28,158
On 4chan, you see something
totally new called the...
789
00:37:28,202 --> 00:37:30,770
[inhales deeply]
uh, Beta Male Uprising,
790
00:37:30,813 --> 00:37:32,772
the Beta Uprising.
791
00:37:32,815 --> 00:37:34,295
-[mouse click] -[Dale]The idea would be that,
792
00:37:34,339 --> 00:37:36,166
all of them would
793
00:37:36,210 --> 00:37:37,864
run out of their mom's basements
794
00:37:37,907 --> 00:37:40,214
and start shooting people.
795
00:37:40,258 --> 00:37:42,912
[suspenseful music]
796
00:37:42,956 --> 00:37:45,654
And of course, like, it's a way
of making fun of themselves.
797
00:37:45,698 --> 00:37:47,482
It's always coded
in guarded irony.
798
00:37:47,526 --> 00:37:49,789
But of course, behind the irony
is the seriousness.
799
00:37:49,832 --> 00:37:51,225
Why are you talking about that?
800
00:37:51,269 --> 00:37:52,835
It's because that's an issue
that resonates with you.
801
00:37:54,315 --> 00:37:55,882
[computerized voice] Uprise.
802
00:37:55,925 --> 00:37:58,145
Welcome to your demise.
803
00:37:58,188 --> 00:37:59,842
[Dale] Pepe
then becomes the symbol.
804
00:37:59,886 --> 00:38:01,888
You see him holding the gun.
805
00:38:01,931 --> 00:38:03,890
It's the classic response
from 4chan,
806
00:38:03,933 --> 00:38:05,370
which is like
the most nihilistic
807
00:38:05,413 --> 00:38:06,980
and despairing, cynical right
808
00:38:07,023 --> 00:38:08,808
where anyone wants
to kill themselves
809
00:38:08,851 --> 00:38:11,506
or do something awful,
or do something anti-social,
810
00:38:11,550 --> 00:38:14,640
making that screen illusion
real in some way.
811
00:38:14,683 --> 00:38:16,859
Um, they're like,
"Yeah. Go for it."
812
00:38:16,903 --> 00:38:18,600
[male anchor #1]
Philadelphia area colleges
813
00:38:18,644 --> 00:38:21,516
have all warned students
to be extra cautious tomorrow
814
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,214
This is the threat that was
posted on 4chan,
815
00:38:24,258 --> 00:38:27,087
a message board
where everyone is anonymous.
816
00:38:27,130 --> 00:38:28,828
It was posted last Friday,
817
00:38:28,871 --> 00:38:31,047
the day after
the shooting in Oregon.
818
00:38:31,091 --> 00:38:32,527
It phrases the gunman
819
00:38:32,571 --> 00:38:35,225
as a fellow member of
the Beta Rebellion.
820
00:38:35,269 --> 00:38:36,792
The post on 4chan
821
00:38:36,836 --> 00:38:38,881
uses a profile picture
of what appears to be
822
00:38:38,925 --> 00:38:41,449
the Grinch in a mask,
holding a gun.
823
00:38:41,493 --> 00:38:43,451
That same picture
was used in a post
824
00:38:43,495 --> 00:38:45,540
the day before
the Oregon massacre.
825
00:38:47,020 --> 00:38:48,282
[Finkelstein]
You see, it's not just
826
00:38:48,326 --> 00:38:50,632
the memes generate the violence.
827
00:38:50,676 --> 00:38:53,766
It's that the violence
becomes a meme.
828
00:38:53,809 --> 00:38:55,942
But, it's just a joke.
829
00:38:55,985 --> 00:38:58,074
Right? It's just a stupid frog.
830
00:39:00,816 --> 00:39:03,341
[Mills] If you had had
a victory over the normies,
831
00:39:03,384 --> 00:39:05,952
you know, striking back
at the oppressors,
832
00:39:05,995 --> 00:39:09,651
it was seen as too enthusiastic
to post like a big, you know...
833
00:39:09,695 --> 00:39:11,349
grinning, laughing,
you know, ha-ha-ha.
834
00:39:11,392 --> 00:39:13,481
[suspenseful music]
835
00:39:13,525 --> 00:39:17,398
So when this smug Pepe came out,
it was groundbreaking.
836
00:39:17,442 --> 00:39:20,096
Like in a way that is
maybe hard to explain.
837
00:39:21,576 --> 00:39:24,100
It was the most succinct,
838
00:39:24,144 --> 00:39:26,015
perfect face.
839
00:39:26,059 --> 00:39:28,757
Then the, uh, you know,
the, the hand up.
840
00:39:28,801 --> 00:39:30,542
It had the perfect
841
00:39:30,585 --> 00:39:32,500
silly look to it.
842
00:39:32,544 --> 00:39:34,633
You know, crude...
843
00:39:34,676 --> 00:39:36,286
like holding back laughter,
844
00:39:36,330 --> 00:39:39,377
but enjoying the suffering
of others.
845
00:39:39,420 --> 00:39:41,988
It was like the perfect
trolling accessory.
846
00:39:43,250 --> 00:39:44,730
The way he's redrawn
847
00:39:44,773 --> 00:39:47,428
with his like thumb up like
this, like really smug...
848
00:39:47,472 --> 00:39:49,474
-[Lisa] Yeah.
-It's like...
849
00:39:49,517 --> 00:39:51,476
that tone is so ugly.
850
00:39:53,129 --> 00:39:54,827
It's used to imply like...
851
00:39:56,132 --> 00:39:57,395
being above
852
00:39:57,438 --> 00:39:59,266
a conversation that people
are trying to have
853
00:39:59,309 --> 00:40:01,007
about kindness.
854
00:40:02,791 --> 00:40:04,576
[indistinct chattering]
855
00:40:04,619 --> 00:40:07,274
[camera shutters clicking]
856
00:40:07,317 --> 00:40:10,799
[Mills] Trump was sort of seen
as like the personification
857
00:40:10,843 --> 00:40:13,976
of the smug Pepe meme.
858
00:40:14,020 --> 00:40:16,457
When he was announcing
that he was going to run,
859
00:40:16,501 --> 00:40:19,460
every news story is, you know,
they don't like him.
860
00:40:19,504 --> 00:40:21,331
People in his own party,
they don't like him.
861
00:40:21,375 --> 00:40:23,595
And people in the other party,
they really don't like him.
862
00:40:23,638 --> 00:40:25,292
And it was like,
"Oh, this is perfect."
863
00:40:25,335 --> 00:40:26,728
He's making everybody upset.
864
00:40:28,164 --> 00:40:31,646
A really interesting time
in 4chan
865
00:40:31,690 --> 00:40:34,606
is Trump's initial announcement
866
00:40:34,649 --> 00:40:36,651
that he is
running for president.
867
00:40:36,695 --> 00:40:38,784
[Aaron] If you look at
the 4chan threads,
868
00:40:38,827 --> 00:40:40,612
before Trump's speech,
869
00:40:40,655 --> 00:40:43,179
it was fairly skeptical.
870
00:40:43,223 --> 00:40:45,225
But then they saw
871
00:40:45,268 --> 00:40:48,141
a lot of these things in his rhetoric that they like.
872
00:40:48,184 --> 00:40:49,490
They saw nationalism.
873
00:40:49,534 --> 00:40:51,797
They saw white nationalism.
874
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,626
And almost immediately
you'll see people being like,
875
00:40:54,669 --> 00:40:57,977
can we get a Pepe
with Donald Trump hair.
876
00:40:58,020 --> 00:40:59,587
I want to start
circulating this.
877
00:40:59,631 --> 00:41:01,763
And that happened,
that's within hours.
878
00:41:05,637 --> 00:41:07,769
[birds squawking]
879
00:41:09,858 --> 00:41:11,860
[ominous music]
880
00:41:15,081 --> 00:41:17,039
[keyboard clacking]
881
00:41:18,563 --> 00:41:21,522
I think that
President Trump is...
882
00:41:21,566 --> 00:41:24,220
a real life version of Pepe,
883
00:41:24,264 --> 00:41:27,006
in the ability to illicit
884
00:41:27,049 --> 00:41:29,487
a reaction and to get attention
885
00:41:29,530 --> 00:41:32,446
and to express and to capture
peoples' hopes and fears.
886
00:41:33,969 --> 00:41:36,276
I was formerly the
Director of Strategy and Data
887
00:41:36,319 --> 00:41:37,886
for the Trump campaign,
888
00:41:37,930 --> 00:41:42,195
so I know as much, if not more
about how to use voter data
889
00:41:42,238 --> 00:41:43,762
than anybody else
in the country.
890
00:41:45,807 --> 00:41:47,200
During the campaign,
891
00:41:47,243 --> 00:41:50,420
there was an effort by 4chan
892
00:41:50,464 --> 00:41:52,814
to get other people
to support the president
893
00:41:52,858 --> 00:41:54,860
by creating memes.
894
00:41:54,903 --> 00:41:56,165
[Braynard]And then sharing them
895
00:41:56,209 --> 00:41:57,993
to say, normies,
896
00:41:58,037 --> 00:42:01,388
to try to motivate them
to support President Trump.
897
00:42:02,563 --> 00:42:04,391
The inside terminology
898
00:42:04,434 --> 00:42:06,349
for this was
"The Great Meme War."
899
00:42:09,048 --> 00:42:11,224
It gave people who had never
really been involved
900
00:42:11,267 --> 00:42:12,573
in politics before
901
00:42:12,617 --> 00:42:13,618
a way in.
902
00:42:15,924 --> 00:42:17,186
[Braynard]
The best memes that you see,
903
00:42:17,230 --> 00:42:18,710
the most effective ones,
904
00:42:18,753 --> 00:42:21,539
are just some person
who has no power at all.
905
00:42:21,582 --> 00:42:22,801
They have no influence,
they have no money,
906
00:42:22,844 --> 00:42:24,150
they have no connections.
907
00:42:24,193 --> 00:42:25,847
But if they can make
one good meme,
908
00:42:25,891 --> 00:42:27,545
they can take off and go viral.
909
00:42:29,111 --> 00:42:30,243
Then when you hypercharge it
910
00:42:30,286 --> 00:42:31,853
by having
the president retweet it,
911
00:42:31,897 --> 00:42:34,247
you felt like you were part
of this rebel group,
912
00:42:34,290 --> 00:42:35,988
this insurgency
913
00:42:36,031 --> 00:42:39,426
that was completely
unpredictable and from
914
00:42:39,469 --> 00:42:41,689
where no one would have
ever expected it.
915
00:42:41,733 --> 00:42:44,039
How does an image like this
916
00:42:44,083 --> 00:42:47,652
end up on Donald Trump's
Twitter account?
917
00:42:47,695 --> 00:42:50,480
[Dale] 4chan supported Trump
for a mix of reasons.
918
00:42:50,524 --> 00:42:52,657
Some of it I think
was this nihilistic idea
919
00:42:52,700 --> 00:42:54,180
that Trump was a wrecking ball.
920
00:42:54,223 --> 00:42:56,443
And that they wanted
to embarrass people
921
00:42:56,486 --> 00:42:57,923
by electing him.
922
00:42:57,966 --> 00:42:59,620
[Dale] And so when Trump
retweeted himself
923
00:42:59,664 --> 00:43:01,404
depicted as Pepe,
924
00:43:01,448 --> 00:43:03,711
it was like
this watershed moment.
925
00:43:06,409 --> 00:43:08,716
[reporter #2] This is Donald Trump co-opting the idea
926
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,590
of himself, uh, sort of substituted as Pepe.
927
00:43:12,633 --> 00:43:14,461
[Braynard]
It was so transgressive,
928
00:43:14,504 --> 00:43:16,463
so anti-PC.
929
00:43:16,506 --> 00:43:19,858
To most of the voters out there, it just seemed kind of odd.
930
00:43:19,901 --> 00:43:21,816
But, if you were
part of the community
931
00:43:21,860 --> 00:43:24,036
that has been spending years
and years, and years
932
00:43:24,079 --> 00:43:25,124
using Pepe,
933
00:43:25,167 --> 00:43:27,474
suddenly,
a little antenna goes up
934
00:43:27,517 --> 00:43:29,215
and you pick up a signal
and say, "Wow.
935
00:43:30,782 --> 00:43:32,392
Maybe this guy's right for us."
936
00:43:34,089 --> 00:43:36,091
[suspenseful music]
937
00:43:43,446 --> 00:43:44,534
[whirs]
938
00:43:47,276 --> 00:43:49,061
[Greer] There's always
magic going on
939
00:43:49,104 --> 00:43:50,715
in any political campaign.
940
00:43:50,758 --> 00:43:52,151
And so...
941
00:43:52,194 --> 00:43:55,894
what happened when Pepe the Frog
suddenly became, um,
942
00:43:55,937 --> 00:43:58,418
in effect Donald Trump's
invisible running mate...
943
00:43:59,811 --> 00:44:02,552
was that a magical force
had entered the picture
944
00:44:02,596 --> 00:44:03,858
and it was a wild card.
945
00:44:03,902 --> 00:44:06,078
[chiming]
946
00:44:06,121 --> 00:44:08,558
A meme can become the anchor
947
00:44:08,602 --> 00:44:10,038
or the seed, if you will,
948
00:44:10,082 --> 00:44:13,041
around which a group of
like-minded people can gather
949
00:44:13,085 --> 00:44:14,652
and toward which
they can focus their energy.
950
00:44:14,695 --> 00:44:17,045
That's a basic tool
of meme magic.
951
00:44:17,089 --> 00:44:19,700
And that's one of the things
we saw during the 2016 Election.
952
00:44:22,311 --> 00:44:24,357
[suspenseful music]
953
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,707
[Greer] The way that magic
was used on the Chans was
954
00:44:26,751 --> 00:44:31,103
they focused on building up
a series of hypersigils,
955
00:44:31,146 --> 00:44:34,236
-of images like Pepe the Frog.
-[lightning crackles]
956
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,718
[Greer] And piled into
those images,
957
00:44:37,762 --> 00:44:39,546
all of their hopes and
all of their energy,
958
00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:41,548
their emotional focus
959
00:44:41,591 --> 00:44:44,246
of seeing Donald Trump
in the White House.
960
00:44:44,290 --> 00:44:46,814
You ended up with a lot of people on the Chans just going,
961
00:44:46,858 --> 00:44:48,773
"Wow, I could do this."
962
00:44:52,864 --> 00:44:54,996
[keyboard clacking]
963
00:44:57,085 --> 00:44:59,087
[foreboding music]
964
00:45:00,915 --> 00:45:03,352
[crowd clamoring]
965
00:45:05,790 --> 00:45:08,836
It's not Republicanism
as we have known it.
966
00:45:12,231 --> 00:45:15,451
These are racist ideas,
race baiting ideas.
967
00:45:15,495 --> 00:45:19,020
Anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant,
968
00:45:19,064 --> 00:45:22,589
anti-women. All key tenants
making up the emerging
969
00:45:22,632 --> 00:45:23,851
racist ideology
970
00:45:23,895 --> 00:45:26,288
known as the alt-right.
971
00:45:26,332 --> 00:45:27,637
[man in crowd] Pepe!
972
00:45:27,681 --> 00:45:30,989
Now, alt-right is short for
alternative-right.
973
00:45:31,032 --> 00:45:33,252
The Wall Street Journal
describes it
974
00:45:33,295 --> 00:45:35,950
as a loose and racist ideology
975
00:45:35,994 --> 00:45:38,170
known as the alt-right.
976
00:45:38,213 --> 00:45:39,475
[man in crowd] Pepe!
977
00:45:39,519 --> 00:45:40,738
Pepe!
978
00:45:42,174 --> 00:45:43,566
And, and to most people,
979
00:45:43,610 --> 00:45:46,787
that was a totally inexplicable
thing at the moment.
980
00:45:46,831 --> 00:45:48,006
It must be totally random.
981
00:45:48,049 --> 00:45:50,138
To the white supremacist
anti-Semitic
982
00:45:50,182 --> 00:45:51,836
neo-Nazi right in this country,
983
00:45:51,879 --> 00:45:54,012
that was a moment of triumph.
984
00:45:55,187 --> 00:45:57,145
[keyboard clacking]
985
00:45:59,887 --> 00:46:02,672
Suddenly, Pepe the meme,
the most...
986
00:46:02,716 --> 00:46:05,675
silliest piece of
meaningless culture,
987
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,896
was sort of like
passing through the screen.
988
00:46:08,940 --> 00:46:11,029
[Dale] It was kinda like
the dream of the troll,
989
00:46:11,072 --> 00:46:12,421
making the Internet real.
990
00:46:16,077 --> 00:46:18,297
[suspenseful music]
991
00:46:22,692 --> 00:46:24,912
It was becoming like,
992
00:46:24,956 --> 00:46:27,567
you know, weird to, like,
have this tattoo.
993
00:46:32,224 --> 00:46:34,400
You're here
to get me involved in your...
994
00:46:34,443 --> 00:46:36,489
nightmare world?
995
00:46:36,532 --> 00:46:38,230
-[gate clicks]
-What's good?
996
00:46:38,273 --> 00:46:39,797
-We're here to exploit you.
-[chuckles]
997
00:46:41,450 --> 00:46:42,712
[both laughing]
998
00:46:42,756 --> 00:46:45,106
Is this... this better be
about Landwolf.
999
00:46:46,151 --> 00:46:47,674
[Skinner] Duck your head.
1000
00:46:47,717 --> 00:46:49,241
Please don't kick my cat.
1001
00:46:50,503 --> 00:46:52,200
If, if you can help it.
1002
00:46:52,810 --> 00:46:54,507
[guitar chimes]
1003
00:46:54,550 --> 00:46:56,422
That... I think it's funny
that, like...
1004
00:46:56,465 --> 00:46:59,468
that Chris got the Pepe tattooed
on his arm and he was like,
1005
00:46:59,512 --> 00:47:01,035
-"I have to hide it now."
-[laughing]
1006
00:47:01,079 --> 00:47:03,733
"Somebody at Subway thought
I was a white power dude."
1007
00:47:03,777 --> 00:47:05,387
-Yeah. Everybody...
-[laughs]
1008
00:47:05,431 --> 00:47:06,867
everybody's actually very...
1009
00:47:06,911 --> 00:47:08,651
everybody's
very excited about Pepe.
1010
00:47:08,695 --> 00:47:10,262
They're like, "Oh wow,
Pepe's this awesome meme, dude."
1011
00:47:10,305 --> 00:47:11,350
[Skinner] He rules.
1012
00:47:11,393 --> 00:47:12,917
-Yeah.
-"Wow, you made Pepe?"
1013
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,310
I was like all proud of myself,
strutting down the street,
1014
00:47:15,354 --> 00:47:17,182
-you know.
-[snaps fingers]
1015
00:47:17,225 --> 00:47:19,488
[Skinner] Now people
just throw rocks at you.
1016
00:47:19,532 --> 00:47:21,360
"That's the guy
who created Pepe!"
1017
00:47:21,403 --> 00:47:22,883
-Yeah. -[Skinner]You're not strutting
1018
00:47:22,927 --> 00:47:24,450
-anymore, are ya? Sicko!
-[Matt] No, I'm not.
1019
00:47:24,493 --> 00:47:25,886
Now I'm, now I'm like
1020
00:47:25,930 --> 00:47:28,193
just slithering down the street
1021
00:47:28,236 --> 00:47:31,326
in a pool of my own waste
or something.
1022
00:47:31,370 --> 00:47:32,937
-[Skinner] Whoa, like a...
-[Matt] Yeah.
1023
00:47:32,980 --> 00:47:34,503
-Like a slug lord.
-Like a...
1024
00:47:34,547 --> 00:47:37,376
Just a... a slurping slimeball.
1025
00:47:37,419 --> 00:47:39,334
[Skinner] But
I really do feel like
1026
00:47:39,378 --> 00:47:41,815
this would only happen to you.
1027
00:47:43,034 --> 00:47:44,774
[slime rustling]
1028
00:47:44,818 --> 00:47:45,906
[squelches]
1029
00:47:50,302 --> 00:47:53,479
[Adam]I interviewed Matt Furie in September 2016
1030
00:47:53,522 --> 00:47:55,176
with The Atlantic.
1031
00:47:55,220 --> 00:47:58,397
My impression of Furie was that
he was very well intentioned,
1032
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,313
but somewhat naive about
the extent to which
1033
00:48:01,356 --> 00:48:04,925
this symbol had been
appropriated by the far right.
1034
00:48:04,969 --> 00:48:07,536
[reporter #3] Pepe is a white nationalist symbol...
1035
00:48:07,580 --> 00:48:08,886
[reporter #4]
...increasingly being used
1036
00:48:08,929 --> 00:48:10,191
by white supremacists...
1037
00:48:10,235 --> 00:48:12,846
It's something of a mascot
by the alt-right.
1038
00:48:12,890 --> 00:48:15,588
[Adam] Defining the alt-right
is somewhat easier these days.
1039
00:48:15,631 --> 00:48:17,285
But around 2016,
1040
00:48:17,329 --> 00:48:18,547
it encompassed a lot of people
1041
00:48:18,591 --> 00:48:20,680
who were ideologically
opposed to the left
1042
00:48:20,723 --> 00:48:23,117
but not necessarily united
on every issue.
1043
00:48:23,161 --> 00:48:24,902
And then you've got people
like Richard Spencer
1044
00:48:24,945 --> 00:48:26,555
who are overt
white nationalists.
1045
00:48:26,599 --> 00:48:29,602
[Spencer]
1046
00:48:31,691 --> 00:48:34,041
[Adam] But the alt-right Pepe
allows them
1047
00:48:34,085 --> 00:48:35,260
to pretend that they're kidding.
1048
00:48:35,303 --> 00:48:36,478
They're not kidding.
1049
00:48:36,522 --> 00:48:38,567
What they want is for you to be
1050
00:48:38,611 --> 00:48:40,134
both scared by the threat
1051
00:48:40,178 --> 00:48:43,572
and be mocked for being scared
in the first place.
1052
00:48:43,616 --> 00:48:45,966
The point is to cause that
kind of psychic anguish
1053
00:48:46,010 --> 00:48:48,534
and then they draw a great deal
of pleasure from that.
1054
00:48:48,577 --> 00:48:50,797
Basically alt-right
is a big tent
1055
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:52,277
or rather a big rock
1056
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,932
under which creeps
a diverse assortment of
1057
00:48:54,975 --> 00:48:57,673
paleo conservatives,
men's rights misogynists...
1058
00:48:57,717 --> 00:49:01,416
I remember I went to
a taping of Sam Bee.
1059
00:49:01,460 --> 00:49:05,333
And she had a segment about
Pepe the Frog.
1060
00:49:05,377 --> 00:49:07,727
And I got to meet her
after the taping.
1061
00:49:07,770 --> 00:49:09,381
And good
old-fashioned neo-Nazis.
1062
00:49:09,424 --> 00:49:10,730
And I was like, "You know,
1063
00:49:10,773 --> 00:49:12,950
Pepe was actually created by
a friend of mine
1064
00:49:12,993 --> 00:49:14,473
and he's a really sweet artist
1065
00:49:14,516 --> 00:49:16,779
and, and it doesn't mean
this thing that it,
1066
00:49:16,823 --> 00:49:18,172
it transformed into,
1067
00:49:18,216 --> 00:49:20,783
and she was just,
sort of like, "Okay."
1068
00:49:20,827 --> 00:49:23,438
The alt-right's use of Pepe
just drowned out
1069
00:49:23,482 --> 00:49:25,571
any other visual interpretation,
1070
00:49:25,614 --> 00:49:29,053
you know, Trump's former campaign chair Steve Bannon said
1071
00:49:29,096 --> 00:49:31,403
the Democrats
are not the opposition party,
1072
00:49:31,446 --> 00:49:33,013
the media
is the opposition party
1073
00:49:33,057 --> 00:49:34,319
and how do you beat the media?
1074
00:49:34,362 --> 00:49:35,755
You flood the zone with shit.
1075
00:49:35,798 --> 00:49:37,626
Well, these people
are flooding the zone with shit
1076
00:49:37,670 --> 00:49:40,151
so that you don't know
what's real or what's not.
1077
00:49:42,153 --> 00:49:44,198
[Alex] I mean quite frankly
I've been to the events.
1078
00:49:44,242 --> 00:49:45,634
It wasn't even real.
1079
00:49:45,678 --> 00:49:47,288
Literally,
they're just Jewish actors.
1080
00:49:47,332 --> 00:49:49,160
A lot of the KKK guys
with their hats off
1081
00:49:49,203 --> 00:49:52,206
literally looks like
the cast of Seinfeld...
1082
00:49:52,250 --> 00:49:54,774
[Adam] A conspiracy theorist
like Alex Jones
1083
00:49:54,817 --> 00:49:56,167
appeals to Trump because
1084
00:49:56,210 --> 00:49:58,212
one of Trump's
major political tools
1085
00:49:58,256 --> 00:50:01,781
is forcing people to reject
objective reality
1086
00:50:01,824 --> 00:50:03,870
in favor of
his version of reality.
1087
00:50:03,913 --> 00:50:05,132
[Alex] Well, Donald Trump,
let me say this.
1088
00:50:05,176 --> 00:50:07,439
You are the leading presidential
frontrunner
1089
00:50:07,482 --> 00:50:09,093
with the Republicans
1090
00:50:09,136 --> 00:50:11,269
gaining a huge lead as you don't
back down, but I got to just...
1091
00:50:11,312 --> 00:50:13,619
And the point of it is to
obliterate objective truth.
1092
00:50:13,662 --> 00:50:15,055
[man on megaphone] Fake news!
1093
00:50:15,099 --> 00:50:17,971
[crowd chanting]
Fuck CNN, fuck CNN!
1094
00:50:18,015 --> 00:50:19,451
Trump frames his language
1095
00:50:19,494 --> 00:50:21,714
in terms of winners and losers.
1096
00:50:21,757 --> 00:50:23,455
I said are you sick
of fucking winning?
1097
00:50:23,498 --> 00:50:24,673
[crowd] No!
1098
00:50:24,717 --> 00:50:26,414
What happens
when that mindset is adopted
1099
00:50:26,458 --> 00:50:28,068
by people on the bottom?
1100
00:50:28,112 --> 00:50:29,461
Instead of thinking of society
1101
00:50:29,504 --> 00:50:30,766
so like where everyone
is sort of equal
1102
00:50:30,810 --> 00:50:32,855
and we're all
lifting ourselves up together,
1103
00:50:32,899 --> 00:50:34,901
you think the world
is a hierarchy
1104
00:50:34,944 --> 00:50:36,946
and the only way you're
going to get to the top
1105
00:50:36,990 --> 00:50:39,079
is by displacing someone else.
1106
00:50:39,123 --> 00:50:40,602
Then you start
getting these ideas like,
1107
00:50:40,646 --> 00:50:42,300
"Well, maybe I'm at the bottom
1108
00:50:42,343 --> 00:50:46,217
because this group of people
has snuck their way to the top."
1109
00:50:46,260 --> 00:50:48,219
They probably cheated their way
up there.
1110
00:50:48,262 --> 00:50:50,047
And so then you get
these elaborate
1111
00:50:50,090 --> 00:50:51,309
conspiracies about like,
1112
00:50:51,352 --> 00:50:54,007
"Oh, well, the, the Jews run
the media.
1113
00:50:54,051 --> 00:50:55,661
[Dale] Uh, "Immigrants,
they're the problem."
1114
00:50:55,704 --> 00:50:58,316
[supporter]
Build a wall! Build a wall!
1115
00:50:58,359 --> 00:51:02,407
Fuck those dirty beaners.
Build a wall.
1116
00:51:02,450 --> 00:51:05,801
[Alex] We're not giving in.
We're not going away.
1117
00:51:05,845 --> 00:51:07,107
Have we not given them
1118
00:51:07,151 --> 00:51:09,936
a big giant red, white,
and blue middle finger?
1119
00:51:09,979 --> 00:51:12,156
[crowd cheering]
1120
00:51:14,984 --> 00:51:17,030
So, then
it started to get strange.
1121
00:51:18,858 --> 00:51:21,382
[Greer] Somebody on the Chans,
nobody knows who,
1122
00:51:21,426 --> 00:51:23,515
found an ancient Egyptian
frog god
1123
00:51:23,558 --> 00:51:24,994
whose name was Kek.
1124
00:51:25,038 --> 00:51:27,084
He looked like
an anthropomorphic figure
1125
00:51:27,127 --> 00:51:28,998
with a frog's head
rather like Pepe.
1126
00:51:29,956 --> 00:51:31,958
Obviously that had to be shared
1127
00:51:32,001 --> 00:51:35,135
and... the Chans went ape.
1128
00:51:35,179 --> 00:51:36,832
[Greer] The reason why
this caught on
1129
00:51:36,876 --> 00:51:39,444
is that Kek is a bit
of gamer slang.
1130
00:51:39,487 --> 00:51:42,882
For complicated reasons,
where we say "ha-ha-ha,"
1131
00:51:42,925 --> 00:51:46,146
in certain gaming circles,
you say "kek-kek-kek."
1132
00:51:46,190 --> 00:51:48,192
[ominous music]
1133
00:51:50,150 --> 00:51:51,717
[supporter #2]
Trumpsters taking the hill.
1134
00:51:52,413 --> 00:51:53,719
The nation of Kek.
1135
00:51:53,762 --> 00:51:56,548
Kekistan taking the hill.
1136
00:51:56,591 --> 00:51:58,941
[Joel] They came up
with this idea of Kekistan,
1137
00:51:58,985 --> 00:52:01,553
of a kind of promised land
for Pepes.
1138
00:52:01,596 --> 00:52:04,121
And anytime you have these ideas
1139
00:52:04,164 --> 00:52:05,818
of ethnic homelands
1140
00:52:05,861 --> 00:52:08,386
and tribalist blood and soil,
1141
00:52:08,429 --> 00:52:11,215
it automatically seems to
cluster in
1142
00:52:11,258 --> 00:52:14,609
with the worst exercises
in human depravity.
1143
00:52:16,263 --> 00:52:18,831
All you need to do is just
put on the mask.
1144
00:52:19,484 --> 00:52:20,833
Put on the mask.
1145
00:52:22,356 --> 00:52:26,012
[coughing]
1146
00:52:26,055 --> 00:52:28,623
[Greer] There had been rumors
flying on the Chans
1147
00:52:28,667 --> 00:52:30,625
that Hillary Clinton was
actually seriously ill.
1148
00:52:31,713 --> 00:52:33,672
And a great many chaos magicians
1149
00:52:33,715 --> 00:52:36,196
were focusing their magical work
on one goal
1150
00:52:36,240 --> 00:52:38,024
which is making her collapse
in public.
1151
00:52:39,330 --> 00:52:41,201
There's a thing
that people talk about
1152
00:52:41,245 --> 00:52:44,465
in occult circles
called the TSW moment.
1153
00:52:44,509 --> 00:52:47,773
A TSW, the polite version is
This Stuff Works.
1154
00:52:49,818 --> 00:52:52,778
[Greer] The Chans
went through their TSW moment.
1155
00:52:52,821 --> 00:52:54,432
Hillary Clinton collapsed
1156
00:52:54,475 --> 00:52:56,608
and had to be hauled into
the SUV by other people.
1157
00:52:57,522 --> 00:53:00,133
[keyboard clacking]
1158
00:53:01,830 --> 00:53:03,267
I honestly think at that point
1159
00:53:03,310 --> 00:53:06,139
if Donald Trump
had asked the habituated Chans
1160
00:53:06,183 --> 00:53:07,619
to walk into the ocean,
1161
00:53:07,662 --> 00:53:08,794
they would have done it.
1162
00:53:11,666 --> 00:53:15,104
You know,
to just be grossly generalistic,
1163
00:53:16,584 --> 00:53:19,239
you could put
half of Trump's supporters
1164
00:53:19,283 --> 00:53:21,720
into what I call
the basket of deplorables.
1165
00:53:21,763 --> 00:53:23,939
[audience laughs]
1166
00:53:25,158 --> 00:53:27,073
-Right?
-[audience applauding]
1167
00:53:28,944 --> 00:53:30,772
The racist, sexist,
1168
00:53:30,816 --> 00:53:33,732
homophobic, xenophobic,
1169
00:53:33,775 --> 00:53:36,082
-Islamophobic...
-[microphone feedback]
1170
00:53:36,125 --> 00:53:38,737
[Dale] Hillary Clinton
then released an explainer
1171
00:53:38,780 --> 00:53:41,740
explaining that Pepe
was a hate symbol
1172
00:53:41,783 --> 00:53:43,524
and that he symbolized
the alt-right
1173
00:53:43,568 --> 00:53:45,657
and through these associations,
1174
00:53:45,700 --> 00:53:49,878
it really made Trump
look like a neo-Nazi.
1175
00:53:49,922 --> 00:53:52,664
But it made her also look
a little clueless, right.
1176
00:53:52,707 --> 00:53:55,754
The idea that she was
denouncing a cartoon frog
1177
00:53:55,797 --> 00:53:57,538
was delightful to 4chan,
1178
00:53:57,582 --> 00:53:59,714
delightful to the alt-right.
1179
00:53:59,758 --> 00:54:01,542
[Dale] It was the best thing
1180
00:54:01,586 --> 00:54:03,762
that could have happened
for them.
1181
00:54:03,805 --> 00:54:05,764
[Braynard]
It certainly galvanized people
1182
00:54:05,807 --> 00:54:08,375
who thought,
"Hey, I really dig Pepe."
1183
00:54:08,419 --> 00:54:10,377
And she just
launched an attack on me
1184
00:54:10,421 --> 00:54:11,639
and called me a Nazi.
1185
00:54:14,207 --> 00:54:17,079
[Alex] Ladies and gentlemen,
the battle has just begun.
1186
00:54:17,123 --> 00:54:19,343
And we are ready.
1187
00:54:19,386 --> 00:54:23,303
[Matt] And I think that that just kind of solidified it.
1188
00:54:23,347 --> 00:54:26,393
Now once you start
deeming something
1189
00:54:26,437 --> 00:54:27,525
as a hate symbol,
1190
00:54:27,568 --> 00:54:30,615
It does, kind of, become that.
1191
00:54:30,658 --> 00:54:33,270
A popular cartoon character
turned Internet meme,
1192
00:54:33,313 --> 00:54:35,054
Pepe the frog, has been added to
1193
00:54:35,097 --> 00:54:38,144
the Anti-Defamation League's
database of hate symbols
1194
00:54:38,187 --> 00:54:39,928
[anchor #1]In a press release, the organization wrote,
1195
00:54:39,972 --> 00:54:41,321
the character had been, quote,
1196
00:54:41,365 --> 00:54:43,454
"Used by haters on social media
1197
00:54:43,497 --> 00:54:47,066
to suggest racist, anti-Semitic or other bigoted notions
1198
00:54:47,109 --> 00:54:48,589
as a hate symbol."
1199
00:54:48,633 --> 00:54:50,896
[Aiyana] Matt's name
was in the description
1200
00:54:50,939 --> 00:54:52,593
about it on the website.
1201
00:54:52,637 --> 00:54:55,074
-[mouse clicks] -[Aiyana]It's like a nightmare.
1202
00:54:57,206 --> 00:54:59,339
He's thinking, "I've worked
my whole life
1203
00:54:59,383 --> 00:55:00,688
as an artist
1204
00:55:00,732 --> 00:55:03,256
and now I'm gonna be lumped in
1205
00:55:03,300 --> 00:55:06,825
with this weird new swastika.
1206
00:55:06,868 --> 00:55:08,566
[newscaster] Matt Furie
put out a statement
1207
00:55:08,609 --> 00:55:10,263
to the Associated Press.
He said that he was horrified
1208
00:55:10,307 --> 00:55:11,830
to see his creation
become a mascot
1209
00:55:11,873 --> 00:55:13,614
for the alt-right
fringe movement.
1210
00:55:13,658 --> 00:55:15,399
[Matt] I don't want to
be associated with this.
1211
00:55:15,442 --> 00:55:17,314
You know, I'm, like, trying
to write children's books.
1212
00:55:19,359 --> 00:55:21,622
The nature of the media
and politics and stuff that
1213
00:55:21,666 --> 00:55:25,234
I've been trying to escape
from my entire life.
1214
00:55:25,278 --> 00:55:26,975
I don't give a shit
about any of that stuff.
1215
00:55:27,019 --> 00:55:29,674
Then I got pulled into it
just because...
1216
00:55:29,717 --> 00:55:32,720
I'm on a hate symbol
database list now
1217
00:55:32,764 --> 00:55:34,243
and it pissed me off.
1218
00:55:34,287 --> 00:55:36,985
-[birds chirping]
-[dogs barking]
1219
00:55:39,597 --> 00:55:41,860
[whirring]
1220
00:55:43,818 --> 00:55:47,561
As the news was going on
that this Internet frog
1221
00:55:47,605 --> 00:55:49,868
has been marked
as like a hate symbol,
1222
00:55:49,911 --> 00:55:52,349
that's when I got
the phone call from our buyer.
1223
00:55:52,392 --> 00:55:53,741
[Rachael] They pulled it
right away.
1224
00:55:53,785 --> 00:55:56,483
So, we have about 3,000 items
1225
00:55:56,527 --> 00:56:00,226
that were going to go
into 580 stores across the U.S.
1226
00:56:00,269 --> 00:56:03,708
and now it's in my garage. So...
1227
00:56:03,751 --> 00:56:06,232
[Rachael] These were probably,
like, $15 each to make.
1228
00:56:06,275 --> 00:56:08,408
If you think of 15 times 3,000,
1229
00:56:08,452 --> 00:56:10,367
like, it's pretty crazy.
[chuckles]
1230
00:56:10,410 --> 00:56:15,328
-Yeah it's 45,000 dollars.
-[Rachael] Yup.
1231
00:56:15,372 --> 00:56:17,417
We didn't want
to give it to Goodwill.
1232
00:56:17,461 --> 00:56:19,158
We didn't want
to sell it ourselves
1233
00:56:19,201 --> 00:56:20,942
because we're afraid...
1234
00:56:20,986 --> 00:56:24,337
white supremacists
would wear it and then...
1235
00:56:24,381 --> 00:56:27,906
What is that worth versus
putting out a hate symbol?
1236
00:56:27,949 --> 00:56:29,908
And I'm sure you feel
the same way.
1237
00:56:31,518 --> 00:56:35,087
A lot of the merchandise
ended up having to be destroyed.
1238
00:56:35,130 --> 00:56:36,654
[Matt] Yeah, now,
that's kind of the least
1239
00:56:36,697 --> 00:56:37,872
-of my worries.
-[Rachael] I know.
1240
00:56:41,136 --> 00:56:42,573
[Johnny] He was a dummy.
1241
00:56:42,616 --> 00:56:44,836
He just kinda let his character get away from him
1242
00:56:44,879 --> 00:56:47,404
and now, this shit happened.
1243
00:56:47,447 --> 00:56:51,843
Matt is just like most of us,
a poor, cartooning loser.
1244
00:56:51,886 --> 00:56:55,368
I was suggesting that he sue
the Anti-Defamation League
1245
00:56:55,412 --> 00:56:57,414
for defamation.
[chuckles]
1246
00:56:59,111 --> 00:57:01,113
[light music]
1247
00:57:01,722 --> 00:57:03,898
[smooches]
1248
00:57:03,942 --> 00:57:06,205
[Matt] I'm just trying
to be positive.
1249
00:57:06,248 --> 00:57:09,382
Not everybody has a platform to talk about this kinda stuff.
1250
00:57:10,992 --> 00:57:13,473
I teamed up with the ADL
1251
00:57:13,517 --> 00:57:16,476
to just try to offer people
some creative solutions.
1252
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:18,478
-[audience applauding]
-Hi, everybody.
1253
00:57:19,653 --> 00:57:21,046
Um...
1254
00:57:22,395 --> 00:57:24,049
So what we're trying to do now
1255
00:57:24,092 --> 00:57:26,791
is to start
a Save Pepe campaign.
1256
00:57:26,834 --> 00:57:30,185
-And uh...
-[audience laughs and applauds]
1257
00:57:32,666 --> 00:57:33,885
I invite everybody
1258
00:57:33,928 --> 00:57:36,844
to draw their own
peaceful version of Pepe
1259
00:57:36,888 --> 00:57:40,587
and share it on social media
with the hashtag "savepepe."
1260
00:57:41,849 --> 00:57:43,590
[Matt] Can we turn something
1261
00:57:43,634 --> 00:57:45,810
that's become a recognized
hate symbol
1262
00:57:45,853 --> 00:57:48,029
into a recognized love symbol?
1263
00:57:50,031 --> 00:57:52,251
[cheerful music]
1264
00:57:52,294 --> 00:57:54,471
[Emily] It was really funny,
but it was also really lovely.
1265
00:57:54,514 --> 00:57:56,429
-Like I tweeted about it. I...
-Yeah.
1266
00:57:56,473 --> 00:57:58,823
-I tried to help. I, like...
-Yeah. I drew a Pepe.
1267
00:57:58,866 --> 00:58:02,304
[Lisa] Part of
the Save Pepe campaign.
1268
00:58:02,348 --> 00:58:05,482
I'm like, damn, he's kind of
going through a situation
1269
00:58:05,525 --> 00:58:08,093
that isn't right
and I want to help him out.
1270
00:58:08,136 --> 00:58:10,138
[rasping]
1271
00:58:11,139 --> 00:58:12,184
Does that look like Pepe?
1272
00:58:12,967 --> 00:58:14,926
[Hampton laughs]
1273
00:58:14,969 --> 00:58:16,580
I've never drawn Pepe before,
1274
00:58:16,623 --> 00:58:19,017
but I figured I'm going to do
whatever I can to help
1275
00:58:19,060 --> 00:58:21,846
because I'm such
a big fan of Matt's, and...
1276
00:58:21,889 --> 00:58:24,718
So, I'm butchering
Pepe here, but...
1277
00:58:24,762 --> 00:58:25,850
something like that.
1278
00:58:26,981 --> 00:58:28,592
[Kevin] In Matt's work,
1279
00:58:28,635 --> 00:58:31,986
I can feel his love
for nature and the universe.
1280
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:35,294
I was like, "Oh, yeah,
Matt's my buddy, you know.
1281
00:58:35,337 --> 00:58:37,383
I like Pepe, so, I just
kind of, like, you know...
1282
00:58:37,426 --> 00:58:39,646
I made a Peace Frog Pepe,
you know.
1283
00:58:41,169 --> 00:58:42,780
Does that look like Pepe?
1284
00:58:42,823 --> 00:58:44,695
[both laugh]
1285
00:58:44,738 --> 00:58:46,305
[interviewer] It's getting less
and less like Pepe.
1286
00:58:46,348 --> 00:58:47,349
[laughs]
1287
00:58:50,048 --> 00:58:52,093
[Matt] I've been working on
it for about a month now
1288
00:58:52,137 --> 00:58:55,009
and I've gotten
about 500 and counting
1289
00:58:55,053 --> 00:58:57,403
brand new peace Pepes.
1290
00:58:57,446 --> 00:59:01,276
My goal with this
is to eventually start something
1291
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:04,932
that I'd like to call
the Peace Pepe Database of Love.
1292
00:59:05,629 --> 00:59:07,892
[cheerful music]
1293
00:59:07,935 --> 00:59:10,068
My whole thing is
just to focus on positive
1294
00:59:10,111 --> 00:59:11,504
and just keep being creative.
1295
00:59:14,420 --> 00:59:16,770
[ominous music]
1296
00:59:27,215 --> 00:59:29,174
[Braynard] The attempt
by Matt Furie
1297
00:59:29,217 --> 00:59:31,872
to wrest control over Pepe,
1298
00:59:31,916 --> 00:59:33,613
it seems like he understands
the Internet
1299
00:59:33,657 --> 00:59:35,746
about as well
as Hillary Clinton does.
1300
00:59:35,789 --> 00:59:40,620
Maybe if the original artwork
wasn't so pedestrian and basic
1301
00:59:40,664 --> 00:59:42,666
that an eight year old
can draw Pepe.
1302
00:59:42,709 --> 00:59:45,843
A scribbling
that was improved upon by others
1303
00:59:45,886 --> 00:59:48,367
that was given meaning
that it never had before,
1304
00:59:48,410 --> 00:59:51,109
I would just
encourage Matt to...
1305
00:59:51,152 --> 00:59:54,025
you know, just be glad
to have been a small part
1306
00:59:54,068 --> 00:59:55,113
of a very big thing.
1307
00:59:57,985 --> 01:00:00,901
[Matt] Art is supposed to be
therapeutic, so, uh...
1308
01:00:00,945 --> 01:00:02,860
before Trump got elected,
1309
01:00:02,903 --> 01:00:06,733
I just did this kind of, like,
nightmare scenario of Pepe,
1310
01:00:06,777 --> 01:00:09,170
like slowly morphing
into Donald Trump
1311
01:00:09,214 --> 01:00:11,172
and then into a monster
and then,
1312
01:00:11,216 --> 01:00:13,348
uh, being trapped inside
the monster's mouth,
1313
01:00:13,392 --> 01:00:15,220
as you can see, and, uh...
1314
01:00:15,263 --> 01:00:16,482
It's like a nuclear war.
1315
01:00:16,525 --> 01:00:18,049
[explosion]
1316
01:00:18,092 --> 01:00:20,181
[eerie music]
1317
01:00:23,620 --> 01:00:25,186
[crowd cheering]
1318
01:00:25,230 --> 01:00:28,407
[Alex Jones] This is
the new American moment.
1319
01:00:28,450 --> 01:00:32,498
This is like Martin-Luther-King- I-have-a-dream speech.
1320
01:00:32,541 --> 01:00:36,763
It's like Washington
crossing the Delaware
1321
01:00:36,807 --> 01:00:40,114
[all] ♪ We are the champions
1322
01:00:40,158 --> 01:00:42,682
[whooping]
1323
01:00:45,859 --> 01:00:47,382
[Mills] We were all ecstatic.
1324
01:00:47,426 --> 01:00:50,690
[keyboard clacking]
1325
01:00:50,734 --> 01:00:53,475
Donald Trump, he
wasn't supposed to be there.
1326
01:00:53,519 --> 01:00:54,999
[Mills] We all felt, like,
1327
01:00:55,042 --> 01:00:58,785
the meming had played a part
in the election.
1328
01:00:58,829 --> 01:01:02,920
[Matt] The Internet's joke
kind of came to fruition.
1329
01:01:04,486 --> 01:01:06,706
[victorious music]
1330
01:01:06,750 --> 01:01:09,274
[crowd cheering]
1331
01:01:14,888 --> 01:01:18,239
[reporter #5]The chaotic scene just blocks outside the secure
1332
01:01:18,283 --> 01:01:20,546
of the inauguration
and parade routes.
1333
01:01:20,589 --> 01:01:22,504
[reporter #6]
1334
01:01:22,548 --> 01:01:24,115
-What?
-[man speaking]
1335
01:01:24,158 --> 01:01:26,595
It's Pepe.
He's become kind of a symbol...
1336
01:01:26,639 --> 01:01:28,641
[upbeat music]
1337
01:01:47,704 --> 01:01:50,707
After the election,
Matt just came to me and said,
1338
01:01:50,750 --> 01:01:53,361
"Hey, I'm going to draw
a comic strip with Pepe in it
1339
01:01:53,405 --> 01:01:55,233
and I'm going to kill him."
1340
01:01:55,276 --> 01:01:58,845
[Matt] The Pepe thing was so
out of control at that point
1341
01:01:58,889 --> 01:02:01,587
and whatever Pepe meant
to all these other people
1342
01:02:01,630 --> 01:02:03,415
didn't mean
the same thing to me.
1343
01:02:04,329 --> 01:02:05,547
So I just killed him.
1344
01:02:06,940 --> 01:02:08,681
[thunder crashing]
1345
01:02:08,725 --> 01:02:10,335
[Matt] I just thought it'd be
funny to do a comic strip
1346
01:02:10,378 --> 01:02:12,119
where all the boys
are at his funeral.
1347
01:02:13,338 --> 01:02:14,861
♪ Your picture
1348
01:02:17,603 --> 01:02:19,083
♪ Is still
1349
01:02:19,126 --> 01:02:20,258
[thunder crashing]
1350
01:02:21,781 --> 01:02:23,696
♪ On my wall
1351
01:02:26,046 --> 01:02:27,874
♪ On my wall
1352
01:02:30,659 --> 01:02:32,270
♪ The color
1353
01:02:35,142 --> 01:02:37,057
♪ Are bright
1354
01:02:40,017 --> 01:02:41,583
♪ Bright
1355
01:02:44,238 --> 01:02:45,892
- ♪ As ever
-[crying]
1356
01:02:48,503 --> 01:02:52,638
♪ The red is strong
1357
01:02:52,681 --> 01:02:55,989
♪ The blue will rest pure
1358
01:02:57,121 --> 01:03:00,820
♪ Something lasts
1359
01:03:00,864 --> 01:03:03,170
♪ A long time
1360
01:03:06,434 --> 01:03:10,003
♪ Something lasts
1361
01:03:10,047 --> 01:03:12,136
♪ A long time
1362
01:03:19,970 --> 01:03:23,712
[Matt] I didn't think it'd
get noticed or anything.
1363
01:03:23,756 --> 01:03:24,844
I'm sure you recognize
1364
01:03:24,888 --> 01:03:26,454
the cartoon character
Pepe the Frog.
1365
01:03:26,498 --> 01:03:28,326
[male anchor #2]Well, he won't be around so much longer
1366
01:03:28,369 --> 01:03:31,155
because his creator has decided to kill him off.
1367
01:03:31,198 --> 01:03:33,766
[woman #3] A carton frog died
on the Internet.
1368
01:03:33,810 --> 01:03:35,855
His name was Pepe.
1369
01:03:35,899 --> 01:03:38,597
It seemed like every time
he drew Pepe,
1370
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:40,729
he would get
hounded by reporters.
1371
01:03:40,773 --> 01:03:44,646
-[thunder crashing]
-[bell tolling]
1372
01:03:44,690 --> 01:03:46,605
-[Aiyana] He just hated it.
-[camera shutters clicking]
1373
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:52,698
[thunder crashing]
1374
01:03:52,741 --> 01:03:56,658
[Pizza] When I had first seen
Matt's death of Pepe comic,
1375
01:03:56,702 --> 01:03:58,878
I was honestly a bit sad.
1376
01:03:58,922 --> 01:03:59,966
[sobbing]
1377
01:04:00,010 --> 01:04:01,881
But the Pepe we see,
unfortunately,
1378
01:04:01,925 --> 01:04:03,883
has been so far removed
from the original...
1379
01:04:03,927 --> 01:04:06,843
that the Pepe Matt was killing
was his own.
1380
01:04:11,108 --> 01:04:13,545
[suspenseful music]
1381
01:04:13,588 --> 01:04:14,851
[keys jingling]
1382
01:04:19,116 --> 01:04:21,335
[Matt] The burden
of this weird Pepe shit
1383
01:04:21,379 --> 01:04:24,991
was starting to make me feel
anxious and weird.
1384
01:04:29,126 --> 01:04:31,650
Maybe it is
whatever people say it is.
1385
01:04:31,693 --> 01:04:34,131
Like I can't fucking control it, you know.
1386
01:04:35,567 --> 01:04:38,831
[whooshing]
1387
01:04:40,137 --> 01:04:43,183
♪ The power that's inside
1388
01:04:43,227 --> 01:04:45,403
♪ Pokemon!
Gotta catch 'em all! ♪
1389
01:04:45,446 --> 01:04:47,448
♪ It's you and me
1390
01:04:54,020 --> 01:04:57,284
[Peter] Owning a rare Pepe
is about being alpha.
1391
01:04:57,328 --> 01:05:02,115
It's about having dank,
rare Pepes nobody else has.
1392
01:05:02,159 --> 01:05:05,118
And it's about how do we
get to the moon in a Lambo.
1393
01:05:07,077 --> 01:05:08,556
[Peter]Okay, let's pull it up.
1394
01:05:09,949 --> 01:05:11,995
I'm in these crypto forums,
1395
01:05:12,038 --> 01:05:13,866
and for the longest time,
1396
01:05:13,910 --> 01:05:16,216
these guys would talk
about Pepe Cash.
1397
01:05:17,478 --> 01:05:19,132
Some huge guys,
1398
01:05:19,176 --> 01:05:21,961
like, seven to eight figure
portfolio crypto guys.
1399
01:05:22,005 --> 01:05:24,007
And I look at the website,
I'm like, "What?
1400
01:05:24,050 --> 01:05:25,965
What the fuck
are they talking about?"
1401
01:05:26,009 --> 01:05:27,010
What is it?
1402
01:05:28,620 --> 01:05:31,318
[gurgling]
1403
01:05:31,362 --> 01:05:33,755
[millionaire]So I actually am a Pepe Cash millionaire.
1404
01:05:34,974 --> 01:05:36,106
How many million is that?
1405
01:05:36,149 --> 01:05:38,195
Is that 363 million?
1406
01:05:38,238 --> 01:05:42,025
Ah, 363 million Internet Pepe.
1407
01:05:42,068 --> 01:05:43,374
You know, I like that.
1408
01:05:43,417 --> 01:05:45,158
[whirring]
1409
01:05:45,202 --> 01:05:47,639
[millionaire] This is when
we christened the SS Rare Pepe
1410
01:05:47,682 --> 01:05:50,555
which I bought with Pepe Cash
and I live on it.
1411
01:05:52,426 --> 01:05:55,212
If you want to explain
the rare Pepe economy,
1412
01:05:55,255 --> 01:05:58,302
imagine a few dozen geeks
on the Internet
1413
01:05:58,345 --> 01:06:02,132
came up with a way to trade
memes off 4chan
1414
01:06:02,175 --> 01:06:05,396
and lock them into ownership.
1415
01:06:05,439 --> 01:06:07,789
There are some Pepes
that are superhero knockoffs.
1416
01:06:07,833 --> 01:06:10,879
You know, Iron Man Pepes,
Spiderman Pepes.
1417
01:06:10,923 --> 01:06:13,273
Some people's heroes
are more political in nature.
1418
01:06:13,317 --> 01:06:14,753
Trump Pepe,
1419
01:06:14,796 --> 01:06:16,581
which is awesome,
because he's just like,
1420
01:06:16,624 --> 01:06:18,452
"Make crypto great again,
whether you like it or not."
1421
01:06:20,498 --> 01:06:21,934
It's much different
than comic books,
1422
01:06:21,978 --> 01:06:23,718
or even collectible
baseball cards
1423
01:06:23,762 --> 01:06:28,767
because it exists as math
on the Internet first...
1424
01:06:28,810 --> 01:06:32,553
and then later you can print
the physical copy of it.
1425
01:06:32,597 --> 01:06:35,295
This is the physical card.
This is worthless.
1426
01:06:35,339 --> 01:06:36,993
This is the thing that's worth
1427
01:06:37,036 --> 01:06:38,690
hundreds of thousands
of dollars.
1428
01:06:40,083 --> 01:06:42,868
So, I was going
to this digital arts conference
1429
01:06:42,911 --> 01:06:44,957
called Rare AF. Rare As Fuck.
1430
01:06:45,001 --> 01:06:46,785
[robotic music]
1431
01:06:46,828 --> 01:06:48,178
Luckily for me,
1432
01:06:48,221 --> 01:06:51,485
they're having the world's
first rare Pepe auction.
1433
01:06:51,529 --> 01:06:53,009
Rare Pepe after rare Pepe
1434
01:06:53,052 --> 01:06:55,054
after beautiful rare Pepe
passing by
1435
01:06:55,098 --> 01:06:57,013
and then finally
gets to the end.
1436
01:06:57,056 --> 01:06:59,232
It's the ultimate rare Pepe.
1437
01:06:59,276 --> 01:07:00,625
[Peter] The Homer Pepe.
1438
01:07:00,668 --> 01:07:03,193
[tense music]
1439
01:07:03,236 --> 01:07:04,803
And I'm like,
"I'm getting this thing."
1440
01:07:04,846 --> 01:07:05,978
Homer for 200.
1441
01:07:06,022 --> 01:07:07,284
-[man #2] Homer!
-Two hundred.
1442
01:07:07,327 --> 01:07:08,589
[Peter]
People start placing bids.
1443
01:07:08,633 --> 01:07:11,070
Twenty, 30, 40,
100,000 Pepe Cash.
1444
01:07:11,114 --> 01:07:12,724
Two hundred thousand Pepe Cash.
1445
01:07:12,767 --> 01:07:14,073
-[auctioneer] Two seventy-five.
-[man #3] Two seventy.
1446
01:07:14,117 --> 01:07:15,640
[Peter] It starts getting
so crazy
1447
01:07:15,683 --> 01:07:18,338
and it gets
to 350,000 Pepe Cash.
1448
01:07:18,382 --> 01:07:21,515
Which is about
39,000 US dollars.
1449
01:07:21,559 --> 01:07:24,214
Three hundred fifty going once,
going twice.
1450
01:07:24,257 --> 01:07:25,954
-[man #4] Uh-oh!
-Sold!
1451
01:07:25,998 --> 01:07:28,000
[crowd cheering]
1452
01:07:28,044 --> 01:07:31,134
[man #4] What inspired you
to pay 39,000 US dollars
1453
01:07:31,177 --> 01:07:33,832
-for a rare Pepe?
-I'm just excited about Pepe.
1454
01:07:33,875 --> 01:07:34,876
[man #4] Okay.
1455
01:07:36,226 --> 01:07:37,531
So this is Homer Pepe.
1456
01:07:39,055 --> 01:07:42,188
Currently the world's
most valuable rare Pepe.
1457
01:07:43,494 --> 01:07:46,758
Now what makes
this Pepe worth so much?
1458
01:07:46,801 --> 01:07:49,326
It's the only one
with a misprint.
1459
01:07:49,369 --> 01:07:53,330
Wait a minute.
"Wait a mintue. Wait a mintue."
1460
01:07:53,373 --> 01:07:54,374
That's value.
1461
01:07:56,637 --> 01:07:57,943
[engine roars]
1462
01:07:59,423 --> 01:08:00,641
[rock music]
1463
01:08:14,916 --> 01:08:17,005
[whooshing]
1464
01:08:19,399 --> 01:08:21,880
[bell tolling]
1465
01:08:25,753 --> 01:08:27,015
[Jeremy] You're Matt, right?
1466
01:08:27,712 --> 01:08:30,367
[Joel]
1467
01:08:30,410 --> 01:08:32,195
You have gainfully employed
all of us.
1468
01:08:32,238 --> 01:08:35,502
[all laugh]
1469
01:08:35,546 --> 01:08:38,157
So, uh...
What are you guys talking about?
1470
01:08:38,201 --> 01:08:41,029
We're all working
the general realm of, you know,
1471
01:08:41,073 --> 01:08:44,424
weird online behavior
from a scientific perspective.
1472
01:08:44,468 --> 01:08:47,166
[Jeremy] We have, uh,
security people from the U.S.
1473
01:08:47,210 --> 01:08:49,342
We have cryptographers
from the U.K.
1474
01:08:49,386 --> 01:08:52,171
We have systems people
from, uh, mainland Europe
1475
01:08:52,215 --> 01:08:54,565
and we take a large scale
analysis of data,
1476
01:08:54,608 --> 01:08:57,002
getting a quantitative
understanding of hate speech
1477
01:08:57,045 --> 01:08:58,090
throughout the web.
1478
01:08:58,134 --> 01:08:59,439
[indistinct chatter]
1479
01:08:59,483 --> 01:09:01,049
We had to figure out a way
1480
01:09:01,093 --> 01:09:03,182
to be able to measure
this stuff at large scale
1481
01:09:03,226 --> 01:09:07,578
and we ended up building
a system to measure memes.
1482
01:09:07,621 --> 01:09:09,754
[Jeremy] Just to give you
an idea of the scale, Matt.
1483
01:09:09,797 --> 01:09:12,278
So we had over a billion posts
1484
01:09:12,322 --> 01:09:15,063
from Twitter, Reddit,
/pol/ and Gab.,
1485
01:09:15,107 --> 01:09:18,197
and we examined the 160 million
some odd images.
1486
01:09:18,241 --> 01:09:19,851
So obviously,
these weren't all Pepes,
1487
01:09:19,894 --> 01:09:22,375
but the scale of this data
is huge.
1488
01:09:22,419 --> 01:09:24,508
-This is only for a year.
-Interesting.
1489
01:09:24,551 --> 01:09:26,597
[Jeremy] There's a variety
of different memes,
1490
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:29,774
but there tends to be
a Pepe variant
1491
01:09:29,817 --> 01:09:31,863
in every single one
of these clusters. So...
1492
01:09:31,906 --> 01:09:33,343
You pick a random meme
1493
01:09:33,386 --> 01:09:35,258
and Pepe has been
inserted into it
1494
01:09:35,301 --> 01:09:37,695
in some way, shape or form.
1495
01:09:37,738 --> 01:09:39,871
[Jeremy] In a lot of ways,
Pepe becomes an entry point
1496
01:09:39,914 --> 01:09:41,612
to radicalization.
1497
01:09:41,655 --> 01:09:43,875
That's a very scary thing
to think about.
1498
01:09:43,918 --> 01:09:47,444
Do you feel any
personal responsibility for...
1499
01:09:47,487 --> 01:09:49,097
the bad stuff
that has come out of this?
1500
01:09:50,142 --> 01:09:51,230
I mean, you shouldn't,
1501
01:09:51,274 --> 01:09:52,318
but you know,
we're humans, right?
1502
01:09:52,362 --> 01:09:53,406
[Jeremy] We feel guilt
for things
1503
01:09:53,450 --> 01:09:55,234
that we shouldn't feel
guilt for.
1504
01:09:55,278 --> 01:09:58,237
[Matt] Um, I'm... I mean, uh,
1505
01:09:58,281 --> 01:10:00,718
maybe I could have been
more proactive earlier on
1506
01:10:00,761 --> 01:10:02,285
-to, like, try to control it.
-Yeah.
1507
01:10:02,328 --> 01:10:04,243
[Jeremy] So, the question of,
"Can you get Pepe back?"
1508
01:10:04,287 --> 01:10:06,289
The reality is that
there is, you know,
1509
01:10:06,332 --> 01:10:09,988
160 million memes, essentially,
in a year, that we collected.
1510
01:10:10,031 --> 01:10:11,119
Not all of them
were Pepes again,
1511
01:10:11,163 --> 01:10:12,730
but a good chunk of them are.
1512
01:10:12,773 --> 01:10:14,775
That's a tough genie
to put back in the bottle.
1513
01:10:14,819 --> 01:10:16,777
Um, yeah. I wish you luck.
1514
01:10:16,821 --> 01:10:18,344
I do.
1515
01:10:18,388 --> 01:10:19,389
[Jeremy] Sincerely.
1516
01:10:20,172 --> 01:10:22,305
[somber music]
1517
01:10:23,393 --> 01:10:25,046
So...
[chuckles]
1518
01:10:25,090 --> 01:10:27,397
I try to stay positive,
you know.
1519
01:10:27,440 --> 01:10:29,007
[Matt] But to be honest, I...
1520
01:10:29,050 --> 01:10:30,095
I've gotten trolled.
1521
01:10:31,401 --> 01:10:32,837
Somebody sent me this.
1522
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:35,143
I don't take it personally
1523
01:10:35,187 --> 01:10:38,756
even though
I'm having my head decapitated.
1524
01:10:38,799 --> 01:10:40,845
It is what it is
what it is, right?
1525
01:10:41,585 --> 01:10:42,586
Um...
1526
01:10:45,937 --> 01:10:48,722
[Matt] It's not like wearing
on kind of, like, my spirit.
1527
01:10:48,766 --> 01:10:51,595
But it's kind of wearing
on my drive to be creative.
1528
01:10:54,337 --> 01:10:59,559
It did manifest anxieties that
I have yet to unravel.
1529
01:11:01,039 --> 01:11:03,259
He just kinda
slept a lot and, uh...
1530
01:11:05,217 --> 01:11:08,002
You know, honestly it was
kinda like hard to talk to him.
1531
01:11:09,395 --> 01:11:11,354
You know, I let him know
I was there for him
1532
01:11:11,397 --> 01:11:12,659
and all that, but, like,
1533
01:11:12,703 --> 01:11:15,619
there wasn't anything
anyone could really do.
1534
01:11:17,838 --> 01:11:20,232
[anchor #2]Tonight a Denton ISD assistant principal
1535
01:11:20,276 --> 01:11:23,279
is coming under fire for writing a new children's book.
1536
01:11:23,322 --> 01:11:25,542
A book, some say,
is politically motivated.
1537
01:11:25,585 --> 01:11:27,805
I'm using Pepe just as
a lighthearted way
1538
01:11:27,848 --> 01:11:31,112
of expressing maybe some
conservative, uh, values.
1539
01:11:32,331 --> 01:11:33,898
[Eric] If you love America,
1540
01:11:33,941 --> 01:11:35,726
you're going to love this book
for sure.
1541
01:11:39,469 --> 01:11:40,905
When Matt found out
1542
01:11:40,948 --> 01:11:44,996
that there was an Islamophobic
racist children's book
1543
01:11:45,039 --> 01:11:49,305
starring Pepe coming out
on Amazon,
1544
01:11:49,957 --> 01:11:51,263
he was so upset.
1545
01:11:52,786 --> 01:11:57,356
And that's when he kind of...
freaked out about it.
1546
01:11:57,400 --> 01:11:59,010
[Aiyana] It was, like,
the last straw.
1547
01:12:01,404 --> 01:12:04,624
It's like... It's like hell,
man. Like...
1548
01:12:04,668 --> 01:12:06,931
If you want to...
If you want to escape hell,
1549
01:12:06,974 --> 01:12:08,193
you can't ignore it.
1550
01:12:08,236 --> 01:12:09,977
You almost have to go
to the center of it.
1551
01:12:13,938 --> 01:12:15,374
[elevator dings]
1552
01:12:16,244 --> 01:12:18,246
[quirky music]
1553
01:12:20,423 --> 01:12:22,294
[Louis] It is not very often
1554
01:12:22,338 --> 01:12:24,601
that nerdy intellectual
property lawyers
1555
01:12:24,644 --> 01:12:26,994
get asked to fight
the alt-right.
1556
01:12:27,038 --> 01:12:29,214
But when we do, we're ready.
1557
01:12:33,436 --> 01:12:35,525
[Matt] I have a whole team
of lawyers
1558
01:12:35,568 --> 01:12:37,396
that are working with me
pro bono
1559
01:12:37,440 --> 01:12:39,398
and have really
empowered me to feel
1560
01:12:39,442 --> 01:12:42,183
like I do have some say
in all this.
1561
01:12:42,227 --> 01:12:45,012
[upbeat music]
1562
01:12:45,056 --> 01:12:48,668
He really wanted to prevent
the digital release of the book.
1563
01:12:48,712 --> 01:12:51,410
[Stephanie]
Inside it was, in fact,
1564
01:12:51,454 --> 01:12:53,499
a not so veiled reference
to a lot of alt-right themes.
1565
01:12:55,153 --> 01:12:57,068
We found out
who was publishing it
1566
01:12:57,111 --> 01:13:00,550
and explained that Matt Furie
owned the copyright to Pepe
1567
01:13:00,593 --> 01:13:04,510
and that we were prepared to enforce his rights in court.
1568
01:13:04,554 --> 01:13:06,425
[Louis] The Adventures
of Pepe and Pede.
1569
01:13:06,469 --> 01:13:09,863
the electronic version
was never published.
1570
01:13:09,907 --> 01:13:13,824
But the issue here is,
when you shut down one person,
1571
01:13:13,867 --> 01:13:15,086
others pop up.
1572
01:13:17,262 --> 01:13:18,785
-[marker rasping]
-[Matt] You know,
1573
01:13:18,829 --> 01:13:22,136
I'm a compassionate guy
and I'm a sensitive guy.
1574
01:13:22,180 --> 01:13:24,661
But being able to work
with a team of lawyers
1575
01:13:24,704 --> 01:13:26,837
has given me strength to...
1576
01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:29,970
shut these assholes up.
1577
01:13:31,494 --> 01:13:32,582
[host #1] You've been sued
by a frog, bro.
1578
01:13:32,625 --> 01:13:33,583
[host #2] Do you even
know this yet?
1579
01:13:33,626 --> 01:13:34,845
No.
1580
01:13:34,888 --> 01:13:36,150
-It's all over the Internet.
-I'm surprised.
1581
01:13:36,194 --> 01:13:37,674
Surprise, motherfucker.
You got sued by a frog.
1582
01:13:37,717 --> 01:13:38,805
[host #2] You've been sued
by a fucking' frog, dude.
1583
01:13:38,849 --> 01:13:42,026
A conspiracy frog named Pepe.
1584
01:13:42,069 --> 01:13:45,333
[Alex] We did sell
a poster that a listener made
1585
01:13:45,377 --> 01:13:46,944
titled Make American Great Again
1586
01:13:46,987 --> 01:13:48,598
that had a bunch of images,
1587
01:13:48,641 --> 01:13:51,209
of symbols that were popular
during the campaign.
1588
01:13:51,252 --> 01:13:52,906
We talked
to our trademark lawyers
1589
01:13:52,950 --> 01:13:56,475
and they said,"Mr. Jones,
this is so outrageous.
1590
01:13:56,519 --> 01:13:58,172
It's against
the First Amendment"
1591
01:13:58,216 --> 01:14:00,436
It is insane.
1592
01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:03,090
This is cockamamie balderdash.
1593
01:14:04,875 --> 01:14:06,833
He was selling a poster
with Pepe on it
1594
01:14:06,877 --> 01:14:08,182
with a bunch of douchebags
1595
01:14:08,226 --> 01:14:09,575
and I just didn't want him
to sell the poster.
1596
01:14:09,619 --> 01:14:11,359
[Johnny] The problem
isn't the drawing
1597
01:14:11,403 --> 01:14:14,101
or the making of the art,
you can do that.
1598
01:14:14,145 --> 01:14:17,365
[Johnny] It's just when
you mass produce it and sell it,
1599
01:14:17,409 --> 01:14:20,456
that's when it gets
into a stickier area.
1600
01:14:20,499 --> 01:14:23,023
[Matt] He's like, "Yeah, the man's gonna stop us."
1601
01:14:23,067 --> 01:14:26,679
He just jacked up
the price of the poster
1602
01:14:26,723 --> 01:14:28,333
and then offered to sign them.
1603
01:14:28,376 --> 01:14:30,074
[Alex] I'm trying to free
Pepe the Frog.
1604
01:14:30,117 --> 01:14:31,554
And I'm either
going to succeed
1605
01:14:31,597 --> 01:14:33,991
or I'll be destroyed
in the process, but that's okay.
1606
01:14:35,514 --> 01:14:38,474
[Matt] I actually don't know
many people on here.
1607
01:14:38,517 --> 01:14:39,953
-[Johnny] Is that Trump, too?
-[Matt] Yeah.
1608
01:14:39,997 --> 01:14:41,259
-There's are two Trumps.
-Sounds like having two Trumps
1609
01:14:41,302 --> 01:14:43,348
in the same poster,
is that legal?
1610
01:14:45,393 --> 01:14:47,308
[Johnny] Well, that's Billie Joe
Armstrong from Green Day.
1611
01:14:47,352 --> 01:14:49,136
[Matt laughs]
1612
01:14:49,180 --> 01:14:50,834
[Johnny] And there's Marsha
from The Brady Bunch.
1613
01:14:50,877 --> 01:14:52,139
-Billy Idol.
-[Matt laughing]
1614
01:14:52,183 --> 01:14:55,491
-Billy Idol.
-And there's Courtney Love.
1615
01:14:55,534 --> 01:14:57,405
[both laughing]
1616
01:15:00,365 --> 01:15:02,236
[barber] A lot of times,
I'm cutting people's hair
1617
01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:04,543
for court
when they're in trouble so...
1618
01:15:04,587 --> 01:15:06,763
Yeah, I'm not into...
I'm not in any trouble at all.
1619
01:15:06,806 --> 01:15:09,896
Just, uh, weird situation.
[chuckles]
1620
01:15:09,940 --> 01:15:12,725
Yeah, I've got this
kinda, like, a notorious,
1621
01:15:12,769 --> 01:15:14,988
uh, character named
Pepe the Frog.
1622
01:15:15,032 --> 01:15:16,773
-Have you ever heard of him?
-[barber] Yeah, I actually have.
1623
01:15:16,816 --> 01:15:19,253
-My kids have, too. Yeah.
-Oh, yeah?
1624
01:15:19,297 --> 01:15:22,692
-[old man] This guy, Pepe?
-Yeah, that guy right there.
1625
01:15:22,735 --> 01:15:25,433
So the guy, Matt,
do you know him?
1626
01:15:25,477 --> 01:15:26,565
[Matt] That's me.
[giggles]
1627
01:15:26,609 --> 01:15:28,045
That who you got to go
to court with?
1628
01:15:28,088 --> 01:15:29,525
Oh, no, that's me. I am Matt.
1629
01:15:29,568 --> 01:15:30,830
-[old man] Oh, you're Matt.
-Yeah.
1630
01:15:31,918 --> 01:15:33,006
[old man] Oh.
1631
01:15:35,052 --> 01:15:38,272
[Alex]I don't know who this guy is doing, this Furie fella.
1632
01:15:38,316 --> 01:15:40,144
But I agreed to be deposed...
1633
01:15:41,188 --> 01:15:43,364
for the Pepe the Frog deal.
1634
01:15:43,408 --> 01:15:44,931
[woman #4] Sir, would you raise
your right hand to be sworn?
1635
01:15:44,975 --> 01:15:46,019
Do you solemnly state
1636
01:15:46,063 --> 01:15:47,107
the testimony
you're about to give
1637
01:15:47,151 --> 01:15:48,282
will be the truth,
the whole truth
1638
01:15:48,326 --> 01:15:49,762
-and nothing but the truth?
-I do.
1639
01:15:53,766 --> 01:15:56,508
[Alex] I don't like the frog.
I don't like this whole thing.
1640
01:15:56,552 --> 01:15:58,118
But I got to stand up
for the First Amendment.
1641
01:15:59,946 --> 01:16:01,905
Let's say the frog is triggering
for me now.
1642
01:16:03,863 --> 01:16:05,343
I hate Pepe.
1643
01:16:05,386 --> 01:16:07,693
[man #5]Video tape deposition of Matt Furie
1644
01:16:07,737 --> 01:16:10,130
in the matter
of Matt Furie vs. InfoWars,
1645
01:16:10,174 --> 01:16:12,655
and Free Speech, LLC.
1646
01:16:13,786 --> 01:16:16,136
[man #5] So from 2001 to 2007,
1647
01:16:16,180 --> 01:16:20,140
you had sort of this carefree
part-time, knucklehead life.
1648
01:16:21,489 --> 01:16:22,795
I still have that.
1649
01:16:22,839 --> 01:16:25,276
[man #5 chuckles]
Excellent.
1650
01:16:25,319 --> 01:16:27,321
And what did you do to prepare
for today's deposition?
1651
01:16:28,932 --> 01:16:30,411
Really nothing.
1652
01:16:30,455 --> 01:16:33,850
[man #5] So how did you pick
the name Pepe the Frog?
1653
01:16:33,893 --> 01:16:36,417
It sounded like, um, "peepee."
1654
01:16:37,723 --> 01:16:39,203
To go peepee.
1655
01:16:39,246 --> 01:16:40,770
[man #5] So it is
a cartoon frog, right?
1656
01:16:40,813 --> 01:16:41,901
Yes, it's a cartoon frog.
1657
01:16:41,945 --> 01:16:44,512
[man #5]
It has round lips, right?
1658
01:16:45,513 --> 01:16:47,124
I wouldn't call that round lips.
1659
01:16:47,167 --> 01:16:49,387
-[man #5] Okay. Uh...
-More tubular.
1660
01:16:49,430 --> 01:16:50,954
[man #5] Tubular lips.
1661
01:16:50,997 --> 01:16:53,783
[Matt] I thought I had some kind of like Zen-like grip.
1662
01:16:53,826 --> 01:16:55,915
He kinda did the good cop,
bad cop thing on me.
1663
01:16:55,959 --> 01:16:59,005
He was like, "So you like
Beavis and Butthead"?
1664
01:16:59,049 --> 01:17:00,180
[man] Do you watch
Ren and Stimpy?
1665
01:17:00,224 --> 01:17:01,399
Yes.
1666
01:17:01,442 --> 01:17:03,531
[Matt] But then,
he was all kind of like...
1667
01:17:03,575 --> 01:17:04,707
"Let's get 'em."
1668
01:17:04,750 --> 01:17:07,448
[man #5] Forty-nine.
This is a fun one.
1669
01:17:09,886 --> 01:17:11,191
-[thuds]
-[sighs]
1670
01:17:11,235 --> 01:17:14,194
[man #5] Hold that up
and tell us what's 49?
1671
01:17:14,238 --> 01:17:17,676
Um, yeah, it's an allegory
on the direction nature's going
1672
01:17:17,720 --> 01:17:19,809
from my perspective.
1673
01:17:19,852 --> 01:17:21,549
[man #5] Uh, excuse me.
The second to last page.
1674
01:17:21,593 --> 01:17:22,812
-Page 20.
-I'm sorry.
1675
01:17:22,855 --> 01:17:25,423
I worked out this morning.
1676
01:17:25,466 --> 01:17:27,381
[man #5] It's just coincidental
that they look alike?
1677
01:17:27,425 --> 01:17:28,861
Absolutely.
1678
01:17:28,905 --> 01:17:32,952
An original character
that's based on a hot dog man.
1679
01:17:32,996 --> 01:17:35,172
Part man, part hot dog.
1680
01:17:35,215 --> 01:17:36,782
It's clear what all this is.
1681
01:17:36,826 --> 01:17:38,566
So people can say Jones is using
a white supremacist symbol
1682
01:17:38,610 --> 01:17:39,959
when it's not.
1683
01:17:40,003 --> 01:17:41,178
It's a way of saying
I'm a white supremacist.
1684
01:17:41,221 --> 01:17:44,355
It's a way of defaming me...
1685
01:17:44,398 --> 01:17:46,618
and acting like I stole
something all at the same time.
1686
01:17:46,662 --> 01:17:48,272
It's just... god! Evil!
1687
01:17:49,708 --> 01:17:51,754
That's just evil!
1688
01:17:51,797 --> 01:17:52,842
[man #5] Is that Big Bird?
1689
01:17:52,885 --> 01:17:54,408
Yes.
1690
01:17:54,452 --> 01:17:55,540
[man #5] Thirty-one
is not Grimace?
1691
01:17:55,583 --> 01:17:57,020
No.
1692
01:17:57,063 --> 01:17:59,718
[man #5] So those aren't
derivations of the Hamburglar?
1693
01:17:59,762 --> 01:18:01,677
-Oh, these guys?
-[man #5] Yes.
1694
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:04,462
-Do you mean Mayor McCheese?
-[man #5 chuckles]
1695
01:18:04,505 --> 01:18:06,682
And you got no license
to put that up.
1696
01:18:06,725 --> 01:18:08,901
-[scoffs]
-When I was in sixth grade,
1697
01:18:08,945 --> 01:18:11,817
I did not attain the license
to draw this stuff.
1698
01:18:13,776 --> 01:18:15,212
You know, I went to the bathroom
at one point
1699
01:18:15,255 --> 01:18:18,258
and he's taking a piss, too,
and he's like, uh...
1700
01:18:18,302 --> 01:18:20,696
"So I guess this is where
all the dicks hang out."
1701
01:18:20,739 --> 01:18:22,915
And I was like,
"Ha ha, that's funny.
1702
01:18:22,959 --> 01:18:24,874
And also awkward
that I got my dick in my hand
1703
01:18:24,917 --> 01:18:26,571
and we're talking
right now and..."
1704
01:18:26,614 --> 01:18:27,877
And then, shortly after that,
1705
01:18:27,920 --> 01:18:29,226
he's just
fucking screaming at me.
1706
01:18:29,269 --> 01:18:31,794
We're suing, uh, Alex Jones...
1707
01:18:32,664 --> 01:18:33,883
because he...
1708
01:18:33,926 --> 01:18:35,014
[man #5] That's not the question
I asked you.
1709
01:18:35,058 --> 01:18:36,233
Oh.
1710
01:18:36,276 --> 01:18:37,538
[man #5] Answer the question
I asked you.
1711
01:18:37,582 --> 01:18:39,236
It... It...
1712
01:18:39,279 --> 01:18:42,587
twisted my noodles for a while
and I, like...
1713
01:18:42,630 --> 01:18:45,285
You know when you, like,
say something in passing
1714
01:18:45,329 --> 01:18:47,200
to somebody else
and it's like...
1715
01:18:47,244 --> 01:18:48,854
you wish you would've said
something else.
1716
01:18:48,898 --> 01:18:52,336
[Matt]This was like four hours of concentrated...
1717
01:18:52,379 --> 01:18:55,382
me wishing I would have said
something else.
1718
01:18:55,426 --> 01:18:57,254
It's not
a comfortable situation.
1719
01:18:57,297 --> 01:19:00,736
Dude, it sucked. It was hard.
1720
01:19:00,779 --> 01:19:02,999
[Matt] From my point of view,
this is a direct copy.
1721
01:19:04,348 --> 01:19:06,306
[man #5] So all of your
references before
1722
01:19:06,350 --> 01:19:07,568
are just references.
1723
01:19:07,612 --> 01:19:09,179
But this one is what,
traced, you mean?
1724
01:19:09,222 --> 01:19:10,789
Yeah.
1725
01:19:10,833 --> 01:19:13,749
[man #5] Why do you suppose Pepe
looks happy in that picture?
1726
01:19:13,792 --> 01:19:15,098
Pepe's kinda like a mirror.
1727
01:19:15,141 --> 01:19:18,754
So the way that users online
would use Pepe
1728
01:19:18,797 --> 01:19:20,364
is a reflection of...
1729
01:19:21,234 --> 01:19:22,670
themselves, to an extent.
1730
01:19:22,714 --> 01:19:26,239
That's my...
interpretation of it.
1731
01:19:27,850 --> 01:19:29,068
[man #5] No further questions.
1732
01:19:29,112 --> 01:19:30,243
[man #6]
I have nothing else here either.
1733
01:19:30,287 --> 01:19:31,897
Thank you for your time.
1734
01:19:31,941 --> 01:19:33,551
This marks the end of the video
tape deposition of Alex Jones.
1735
01:19:33,594 --> 01:19:34,291
This marks the end of the video
tape deposition of Alex Jones.
1736
01:19:34,334 --> 01:19:35,901
Good luck.
1737
01:19:35,945 --> 01:19:38,338
[man #6] We're going off record
and the time is 13:00 even.
1738
01:19:42,516 --> 01:19:43,561
[Matt] Let's try to find
a little round...
1739
01:19:43,604 --> 01:19:45,868
-[Ursula] Oh!
-Oh, there it is.
1740
01:19:45,911 --> 01:19:48,522
-There.
-So we need two dark green ones.
1741
01:19:48,566 --> 01:19:49,785
Okay.
1742
01:19:51,351 --> 01:19:52,831
[Matt] It took me weeks
to detangle my mind
1743
01:19:52,875 --> 01:19:57,618
after all this legal stuff.
1744
01:19:57,662 --> 01:19:59,925
That's what I signed up for,
you know.
1745
01:19:59,969 --> 01:20:01,622
It's not going
to be easy, but...
1746
01:20:01,666 --> 01:20:03,929
but I'm willing to go
the distance with this shit.
1747
01:20:10,109 --> 01:20:12,329
♪ And he hops and hops
1748
01:20:12,372 --> 01:20:16,246
♪ Pepe, watch out
And he hops and hops ♪
1749
01:20:16,289 --> 01:20:17,769
♪ Pepe, do stop
1750
01:20:17,813 --> 01:20:19,945
- ♪ And he hops and hops
-[cellphone ringing]
1751
01:20:19,989 --> 01:20:21,991
♪ You make me dizzy
1752
01:20:22,034 --> 01:20:23,557
♪ You make me dizzy
1753
01:20:23,601 --> 01:20:25,559
♪ I say, Pepe, come here
1754
01:20:25,603 --> 01:20:28,127
-Yeah.
- ♪ And he hops and hops
1755
01:20:28,171 --> 01:20:29,737
♪ Pepe, watch out
1756
01:20:30,390 --> 01:20:33,176
[Matt laughs]
1757
01:20:36,614 --> 01:20:39,269
[Aiyana] Everybody's
saying congratulations.
1758
01:20:39,312 --> 01:20:43,360
"A sparkle of good news
in these troubling times."
1759
01:20:43,403 --> 01:20:45,797
[light music]
1760
01:20:49,366 --> 01:20:51,020
[Matt] This was actually
going to trial.
1761
01:20:51,063 --> 01:20:52,238
And then Louis was just, like,
1762
01:20:52,282 --> 01:20:54,893
"Oh, surprisingly
they want to settle."
1763
01:20:54,937 --> 01:20:57,548
[Louis] We were confident we were gonna prevail at trial.
1764
01:20:57,591 --> 01:20:59,419
And InfoWars gave up.
1765
01:21:00,943 --> 01:21:03,075
It just went live
on InfoWars.com.
1766
01:21:03,119 --> 01:21:05,512
[Alex] InfoWars settles
Pepe the Frog lawsuit.
1767
01:21:05,556 --> 01:21:08,776
Pays tiny settlement
to creator Matt Furie.
1768
01:21:08,820 --> 01:21:10,039
[Marc] This amount...
1769
01:21:10,082 --> 01:21:12,258
It's a bar tab
at a topless club, you know,
1770
01:21:12,302 --> 01:21:13,607
for one good night, so...
1771
01:21:13,651 --> 01:21:15,218
-So, what the heck.
-[Alex laughs]
1772
01:21:15,261 --> 01:21:17,873
This is more than I've ever made on theBoy's Club comic books.
1773
01:21:17,916 --> 01:21:20,397
So, it just, kind of...
To put it into context, like,
1774
01:21:20,440 --> 01:21:22,181
Alex Jones is like...
1775
01:21:22,225 --> 01:21:25,054
"Hey, we got away
with barely paying anything."
1776
01:21:25,097 --> 01:21:26,969
But it's all...
it's all relative.
1777
01:21:27,012 --> 01:21:29,101
This is a big deal to show
what these bullies are up to
1778
01:21:29,145 --> 01:21:30,537
and what happens
when you stand up to them.
1779
01:21:30,581 --> 01:21:32,452
[robotic voice]
1780
01:21:33,714 --> 01:21:35,542
At the end of the day,
he's just...
1781
01:21:35,586 --> 01:21:39,720
selling a bunch of bad ideas,
bad supplements,
1782
01:21:39,764 --> 01:21:41,809
in a bad attitude.
1783
01:21:41,853 --> 01:21:44,160
[Matt] It's just a business.
1784
01:21:44,203 --> 01:21:46,075
Without you buying
the videos and the books
1785
01:21:46,118 --> 01:21:47,467
and the supplements,
1786
01:21:47,511 --> 01:21:50,209
we couldn't put on
one hell of a junkyard dog fight
1787
01:21:50,253 --> 01:21:51,297
against these bastards.
1788
01:21:53,125 --> 01:21:55,214
[Louis] This case
against InfoWars
1789
01:21:55,258 --> 01:21:57,825
was the latest
in a string of successes.
1790
01:21:57,869 --> 01:21:59,740
We went after Richard Spencer.
1791
01:21:59,784 --> 01:22:01,786
Uh, we went after Baked Alaska.
1792
01:22:01,829 --> 01:22:05,790
We went after the Daily Stormer, a neo-Nazi website.
1793
01:22:05,833 --> 01:22:09,054
We have successfully enforced
Matt's copyrights in Pepe
1794
01:22:09,098 --> 01:22:12,971
against somewhere between 75
and 100 different entities
1795
01:22:13,015 --> 01:22:16,496
in connection with images
or language of hate.
1796
01:22:16,540 --> 01:22:19,369
And this is beginning
to turn the narrative
1797
01:22:19,412 --> 01:22:20,936
of Pepe back around.
1798
01:22:23,590 --> 01:22:25,592
[siren wailing in distance]
1799
01:22:30,946 --> 01:22:35,559
[Matt] This guys are, kind of,
like, messing with reality.
1800
01:22:35,602 --> 01:22:39,389
Amplifying negativity
or normalizing negativity.
1801
01:22:39,432 --> 01:22:42,000
And I'm doing everything I can
in my power
1802
01:22:42,044 --> 01:22:44,394
to change the course
of this thing.
1803
01:22:44,437 --> 01:22:47,701
And I think removing Pepe
from the hate symbol list,
1804
01:22:47,745 --> 01:22:49,225
it would be a win for...
1805
01:22:50,487 --> 01:22:51,575
peace.
1806
01:22:57,276 --> 01:22:59,539
[elevator dings]
1807
01:22:59,583 --> 01:23:01,628
With all these legal steps
that I'm taking,
1808
01:23:01,672 --> 01:23:03,935
everything I've been doing
up until now,
1809
01:23:03,979 --> 01:23:06,982
my goal is to get it off
the hate symbol database.
1810
01:23:07,025 --> 01:23:08,461
To me, it's not a symbol.
1811
01:23:08,505 --> 01:23:09,854
It's a character, you know.
1812
01:23:09,897 --> 01:23:11,247
It's the character,
1813
01:23:11,290 --> 01:23:13,162
but he's adorned with different
symbols, you know.
1814
01:23:13,205 --> 01:23:15,686
[Matt] And they're pretty
extreme stuff.
1815
01:23:15,729 --> 01:23:17,340
[Oren] I mean, yeah, you know.
1816
01:23:17,383 --> 01:23:20,038
It's tough, right? Having it
on the hate symbols database,
1817
01:23:20,082 --> 01:23:21,561
we have found
to be really useful
1818
01:23:21,605 --> 01:23:23,650
for those who are trying
to understand
1819
01:23:23,694 --> 01:23:26,218
this barrage of symbols
that is being thrown at them
1820
01:23:26,262 --> 01:23:29,308
whether it's a frog, a meme,
or a hand gesture.
1821
01:23:29,352 --> 01:23:31,093
-[Matt] Mm-hmm.
-It's complicated.
1822
01:23:31,136 --> 01:23:32,833
[Matt] Well, yeah,
it is complicated
1823
01:23:32,877 --> 01:23:34,618
because I think
with Pepe on the list,
1824
01:23:34,661 --> 01:23:37,577
it's seen more as a win for,
you know,
1825
01:23:37,621 --> 01:23:39,318
the so called alt-right
or these others
1826
01:23:39,362 --> 01:23:41,538
because now
they have that symbol.
1827
01:23:41,581 --> 01:23:44,236
You know, this is going to be
a lifelong journey for me
1828
01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:46,934
'cause I'm going to be entangled
with this character forever.
1829
01:23:46,978 --> 01:23:49,198
But what would be the impact
of removing it?
1830
01:23:49,241 --> 01:23:51,243
[Oren] Most of these people
are creating these images
1831
01:23:51,287 --> 01:23:53,593
and are going to keep turning
these things out.
1832
01:23:53,637 --> 01:23:56,031
Your bottomline request...
1833
01:23:56,074 --> 01:23:57,858
It's really not going
to solve the issue.
1834
01:23:57,902 --> 01:24:00,383
It's not about this cartoon
being on the hate symbols list.
1835
01:24:01,253 --> 01:24:02,254
[Oren] And it sucks!
1836
01:24:05,344 --> 01:24:06,563
-[Matt] All right, man.
-[Oren] Thanks a lot.
1837
01:24:06,606 --> 01:24:07,868
-Yeah, thank you.
-Good luck.
1838
01:24:11,655 --> 01:24:14,571
[tranquil music]
1839
01:24:20,272 --> 01:24:21,839
[Matt]
I don't want the narrative
1840
01:24:21,882 --> 01:24:25,451
to be like I'm victimized here.
1841
01:24:25,495 --> 01:24:29,542
People have to deal with horror on a daily level.
1842
01:24:30,630 --> 01:24:32,502
Let's work together, you know.
1843
01:24:32,545 --> 01:24:34,678
Let's uh... let's uh...
1844
01:24:36,462 --> 01:24:39,030
figure this shit out,
'cause, uh...
1845
01:24:39,074 --> 01:24:41,206
it's not getting any better,
you know.
1846
01:24:43,295 --> 01:24:45,341
All of the accounts
of what happened to me
1847
01:24:45,384 --> 01:24:48,518
and my family over the years
are enormous in scale
1848
01:24:48,561 --> 01:24:51,129
and historically rooted
in a legacy of white supremacy.
1849
01:24:51,173 --> 01:24:54,219
[crowd singing]
♪ This little light of mine
1850
01:24:54,263 --> 01:24:56,395
♪ I'm gonna let it shine
1851
01:24:56,439 --> 01:24:57,614
[reporter #7] Why?
Why are you being provocative?
1852
01:24:57,657 --> 01:24:59,790
[man #7] I like trolling people.
It's fun.
1853
01:24:59,833 --> 01:25:00,878
[reporter #8] You do it for fun.
1854
01:25:00,921 --> 01:25:02,140
Yeah, it's fun.
1855
01:25:02,184 --> 01:25:04,186
The aesthetics and ideals
1856
01:25:04,229 --> 01:25:06,536
that extremists
are promoting online
1857
01:25:06,579 --> 01:25:08,190
with their use of Pepe the Frog
1858
01:25:08,233 --> 01:25:10,279
are now bleeding completely
1859
01:25:10,322 --> 01:25:13,412
into what you would otherwise
describe as regular people.
1860
01:25:13,456 --> 01:25:14,544
[man #8] Yeah,
go ahead and video me now.
1861
01:25:14,587 --> 01:25:16,589
I'm videoing you too,
motherfucker.
1862
01:25:16,633 --> 01:25:18,243
You know what's coming
to you people, right?
1863
01:25:18,287 --> 01:25:19,853
You know Trump
is just the beginning.
1864
01:25:21,507 --> 01:25:23,770
You bearded monkeys
have no place in America.
1865
01:25:25,946 --> 01:25:27,644
The ideology is premised
1866
01:25:27,687 --> 01:25:30,516
on justifying violence
towards vulnerable people.
1867
01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:34,390
[crowd chanting]
USA! USA!
1868
01:25:34,433 --> 01:25:36,566
[Adam] And when that seeps
into the beliefs
1869
01:25:36,609 --> 01:25:38,176
of regular Americans,
1870
01:25:38,220 --> 01:25:41,005
you're heading
for some place very bad.
1871
01:25:41,048 --> 01:25:43,050
[crowd jeering]
1872
01:25:47,229 --> 01:25:49,361
[ominous music]
1873
01:25:50,928 --> 01:25:52,451
You can't put the genie
back in the bottle,
1874
01:25:52,495 --> 01:25:54,453
but you can send it
somewhere else.
1875
01:25:56,281 --> 01:25:59,893
To actually change the narrative
it would be necessary
1876
01:25:59,937 --> 01:26:03,070
to take the frog, to take Pepe,
1877
01:26:03,114 --> 01:26:05,812
and do something very different
with him.
1878
01:26:07,379 --> 01:26:09,033
Something that could develop...
1879
01:26:09,947 --> 01:26:11,078
a meme of its own.
1880
01:26:12,297 --> 01:26:14,604
[somber music]
1881
01:26:17,041 --> 01:26:19,217
[protesters chanting in Chinese]
1882
01:26:27,443 --> 01:26:30,750
[Dale]Suddenly, out of nowhere, Pepe is being used in Hong Kong
1883
01:26:30,794 --> 01:26:34,885
as a symbol of freedom,
democracy, and youth protest.
1884
01:26:34,928 --> 01:26:36,495
I was surprised
as much as anyone.
1885
01:26:36,539 --> 01:26:39,237
-[protesters chanting]
-[pops]
1886
01:26:42,066 --> 01:26:44,199
[Dale] This is
the newer version of him.
1887
01:26:44,242 --> 01:26:45,461
He is wearing a hard hat
1888
01:26:45,504 --> 01:26:48,377
and he's wearing
the outfit of the protesters.
1889
01:26:48,420 --> 01:26:50,944
[Dale] It was like a way
to resist authoritarianism.
1890
01:26:54,426 --> 01:26:55,558
[explosion]
1891
01:26:57,560 --> 01:27:01,041
[Dale] Oh, he was crying
from the tear gas.
1892
01:27:01,085 --> 01:27:03,522
[Matt] Pepe is now
being spray painted on walls
1893
01:27:03,566 --> 01:27:05,872
as a symbol of hope.
1894
01:27:08,092 --> 01:27:10,747
[Dale] Like when does that
actually happened in history?
1895
01:27:10,790 --> 01:27:12,314
You see it in movies
all the time.
1896
01:27:12,357 --> 01:27:15,142
Like, "This is the symbol
we're all gonna rally behind."
1897
01:27:15,186 --> 01:27:17,014
Yeah, this never happens
in reality,
1898
01:27:17,057 --> 01:27:19,277
except now it happened to Pepe.
1899
01:27:19,321 --> 01:27:20,583
[chuckles]
1900
01:27:22,889 --> 01:27:24,935
[Dale] Pepe beams
in everyone's brain
1901
01:27:24,978 --> 01:27:27,938
this idea of, like,
the every man.
1902
01:27:27,981 --> 01:27:30,549
As you grow up,
you realize that, in fact,
1903
01:27:30,593 --> 01:27:32,116
you can affect the world,
1904
01:27:32,159 --> 01:27:35,380
and you can use a small lever
1905
01:27:35,424 --> 01:27:38,122
to actually move
a great amount of weight.
1906
01:27:38,165 --> 01:27:40,864
[crowd singing]
1907
01:27:40,907 --> 01:27:44,171
That's the power
that Pepe has, right? Like...
1908
01:27:44,215 --> 01:27:47,610
"Oh, what's more worthless
than cartoons?"
1909
01:27:47,653 --> 01:27:50,134
But like, "What's more powerful
than Mickey Mouse?"
1910
01:27:50,177 --> 01:27:51,657
[laughing]
Right? Like...
1911
01:27:51,701 --> 01:27:53,616
One of the most powerful things
you can do
1912
01:27:53,659 --> 01:27:55,270
is create an iconic cartoon.
1913
01:27:57,794 --> 01:28:00,057
[in Chinese]
1914
01:28:25,561 --> 01:28:27,476
In a lot
of traditional societies,
1915
01:28:27,519 --> 01:28:30,130
it was very standard
to look for omens.
1916
01:28:30,174 --> 01:28:31,741
[bubbling]
1917
01:28:31,784 --> 01:28:35,222
[Greer]Signs, strange portents, things that were not expected
1918
01:28:35,266 --> 01:28:36,702
that suddenly came
out of the blue.
1919
01:28:37,964 --> 01:28:39,314
Because that was a warning
1920
01:28:39,357 --> 01:28:40,880
something was shifting
in society,
1921
01:28:40,924 --> 01:28:42,099
something had gone wrong,
1922
01:28:42,142 --> 01:28:43,709
or there was something building
1923
01:28:43,753 --> 01:28:45,842
that you need to know about
before it arrived.
1924
01:28:47,409 --> 01:28:48,714
Pepe the frog is an omen.
1925
01:28:48,758 --> 01:28:49,802
[thunder crashes]
1926
01:28:49,846 --> 01:28:51,195
[Greer] We need to listen
1927
01:28:51,238 --> 01:28:53,632
because it's not going
to go away...
1928
01:28:53,676 --> 01:28:55,765
until we hear the message
that it has to say.
1929
01:28:55,808 --> 01:28:57,810
[ominous music]
1930
01:29:03,555 --> 01:29:05,731
[Matt] Nowadays,
I've just been thinking
1931
01:29:05,775 --> 01:29:08,908
about this concept of a spiral.
1932
01:29:08,952 --> 01:29:12,651
Life unfolding in this kind
of spirally nature.
1933
01:29:14,349 --> 01:29:17,743
So, I've been drawing
in more kind of circular ways.
1934
01:29:19,832 --> 01:29:22,444
I think that there is kind of
a collective consciousness
1935
01:29:22,487 --> 01:29:25,490
of darkness and light.
1936
01:29:25,534 --> 01:29:28,711
And the only thing
that seems true to me
1937
01:29:28,754 --> 01:29:30,800
is that everything
is going to change.
1938
01:29:30,843 --> 01:29:34,586
Like, Trump is not going
to always be the president.
1939
01:29:34,630 --> 01:29:37,807
You know, Planet Earth isn't
always gonna have people on it.
1940
01:29:37,850 --> 01:29:39,069
You know, who knows?
1941
01:29:39,112 --> 01:29:40,375
[both laughing]
1942
01:29:40,418 --> 01:29:41,941
[Matt] The positive notion
of Pepe
1943
01:29:41,985 --> 01:29:44,509
is the possibility
that you can change again.
1944
01:29:48,121 --> 01:29:50,820
[burbling]
1945
01:29:52,604 --> 01:29:54,954
Hard core happy place.
1946
01:29:54,998 --> 01:29:56,869
You got to go hardcore happy.
1947
01:30:03,310 --> 01:30:05,225
[Matt]I still like drawing him.
1948
01:30:05,269 --> 01:30:06,575
I go through waves, like,
1949
01:30:06,618 --> 01:30:09,578
I think last time
I talked to you, Arthur,
1950
01:30:09,621 --> 01:30:10,796
I was sick of him.
1951
01:30:10,840 --> 01:30:12,276
But now,
I like drawing him again.
1952
01:30:13,364 --> 01:30:15,714
[dreamy music]
1953
01:30:17,237 --> 01:30:19,544
[breathes deeply]
1954
01:30:22,547 --> 01:30:24,941
[tranquil music]
1955
01:30:24,984 --> 01:30:26,595
[water sloshing lightly]
1956
01:30:34,690 --> 01:30:37,257
[breathes deeply]
1957
01:30:40,522 --> 01:30:42,132
[splashing]
1958
01:30:42,915 --> 01:30:44,917
[uplifting music]
148352
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