All language subtitles for Why.We.Hate.S01E04.WEBRip.x264-ION10

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EVERYBODY SETTLED?

IT'S AMAZING TO THINK THAT,
IN 2018,

WE'RE SEEING SUCH AN UPSURGE
OF EXTREMISM AND IDEOLOGIES

THAT I THINK WE THOUGHT
PERHAPS WERE OF THE PAST,

THE "NEVER AGAIN."

HI.

SO YOU SEE THESE DIVISIONS.

YOU SEE THE RISE
IN DEEP POLARIZATION,

THE MAINSTREAMING OF EXTREMISM

IN WAYS THAT
WE COULDN'T HAVE IMAGINED.

I WAS BORN AND RAISED IN LONDON
OF VERY MIXED BACKGROUND.

MY FATHER WAS YUGOSLAV.

I WATCHED, AS A VERY YOUNG GIRL,
YUGOSLAVIA,

A PLACE THAT I KNEW
INTIMATELY --

I'VE FAMILY, FRIENDS,

I SPENT EVERY HOLIDAY
AS A CHILD THERE --

REALLY RIP ITSELF
TO GENOCIDAL SHREDS.

AND IT WAS EXTRAORDINARY
TO WATCH THAT TRANSFORMATION.

18 MONTHS,
AND WE WERE IN A BLOODBATH.

AND IT WAS OVERWHELMING TO ME.

I GOT RADICALIZED
BY THAT EXPERIENCE.

I WANTED TO FIGURE OUT A WAY
TO DO SOMETHING.

SO, THE INSTITUTE
FOR STRATEGIC DIALOGUE

IS AN INCUBATOR OF RESPONSES
TO THIS RISING CHALLENGE

GLOBALLY OF EXTREMISM,
OF HATE, OF POLARIZATION.

WHO'S IN
THE SITUATION ROOM?

AND WHO NEEDS TO BE
BROUGHT TO THE TABLE?

AND SINCE 2006, WE'VE BEEN
IN THE BUSINESS

OF LOOKING AT WHAT COULD
POSSIBLY WORK TO UNDERSTAND,

IN-DEPTH, THE PROCESSES
OF RADICALIZATION,

BUT ALSO OF HOW PEOPLE
COME OUT OF THESE MOVEMENTS.

WHAT YOU'RE KNOWN FOR
IN PHILADELPHIA --

EVERYONE'S KNOWN FROM
WHAT STREET YOU GREW UP ON.

YOU'RE INHERENTLY BORN INTO YOUR
GANG OF YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD, SO...

AND IT'S ALWAYS THAT WAY.
IT'S US AND THEM.

HOW LONG HAVE YOU
LIVED HERE FOR?

HOW LONG
HAVE YOU BEEN HERE?

PERSONALLY?
YEAH.

58 YEARS.
IN THIS HOUSE?

YEAH.OKAY, SO, YEAH, I USED TO BE

ONE OF THE LITTLE KIDS
ON THE STREET BACK --

I REMEMBER YOUR VOICE
OR SOMETHING THERE.

YEAH, THOMASINE WAS MY MOM.
THOMASINE AND JOHN.

OH, THOMASINE, YEAH.

I REMEMBER YOU WERE BAD, TOO,
WHEN YOU WERE LITTLE.

THIS IS THE HOUSE I GREW UP IN
OVER 30 YEARS AGO.

IT DIDN'T LOOK THIS NICE.

IT WASN'T THAT BAD,
BUT IT WAS...

IT DIDN'T LOOK THIS NICE.

MY STEPFATHER MOVED IN
WHEN I WAS 9,

AND I LIVED THERE WITH HIM
FOR ABOUT FOUR YEARS.

AND THE BEATINGS AND STUFF, THEY
STARTED KIND OF RIGHT AWAY --

I MEAN, PROBABLY WITHIN
THE FIRST WEEK

OF HIM MOVING IN WITH ME.

I WASN'T EVEN ALLOWED TO TALK
AT THE DINNER TABLE.

DUMBASSES LIKE ME WOULD RUIN
HIS APPETITE, HE'D SAY.

I HAD A BULLY LIVING IN MY HOME.

I HATED MY STEPFATHER.

I MEAN, IT WAS PROBABLY MY FIRST
HATRED IN THE WORLD,

WAS TOWARDS THIS MAN.

MY STEPFATHER KICKED ME OUT,

SO I HAD TO GO MOVE WITH MY DAD,
SO I WENT TO AN ALL-BLACK SCHOOL

IN THE MIDDLE
OF THE SCHOOL YEAR.

I KNEW EVERY DAY --
EVERYDAY --

SOMEBODY WAS GONNA SAY
SOMETHING TO ME,

AND IF I'D DARE TO SAY
ANYTHING BACK,

YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHAT
THEY WANTED, YOU KNOW,

'CAUSE THEN THEY HAVE
JUSTIFICATION

THAT I STARTED THE FIGHT
OR SOMETHING STUPID.

AND THEY ALWAYS USED MY RACE
AS AMMUNITION

TO SAY SOMETHING TO ME,
YOU KNOW?

AND I THINK THESE KIDS, TO ME,

WERE REPRESENTING
THE WHOLE COMMUNITY.

AND IT WASN'T THE WHOLE
COMMUNITY JUMPING ME.

IT WAS JUST THESE KIDS,
BUT IT MADE THAT DIVIDE

BETWEEN US AND THEM
MORE SOLID.

I MEAN, HATRED WAS JUST
BUILDING UP IN ME, PERIOD.

THAT SUMMER...
THAT SUMMER I GOT TO GO

UP TO LANCASTER, PENNSYLVANIA.

MY COUSIN WAS UP THERE,
AND I FOUND MY SAFE PLACE.

SIEG HEIL!
SIEG HEIL! SIEG HEIL!

SO, WHEN I GO UP TO
MY COUSIN'S HOUSE IN LANCASTER,

HE HAD, LIKE, NEWSPAPER ARTICLES
ABOUT NEO-NAZIS ON HIS WALL,

AND HE HAD, LIKE,
A PICTURE OF HITLER,

AND HE HAD, LIKE,
A SWASTIKA FLAG.

AND SO, HE WOULD HAVE ALL THESE
OTHER BIG, BAD SKINHEAD GUYS

COME OVER HIS HOUSE EVERY NIGHT,

AND SO THEY WOULD SIT AROUND
AND TALK ABOUT

HOW THE JEWS SECRETLY RUN
THE FEDERAL RESERVE

AND THEY SIPHON OFF MONEY
OFF THE COUNTRY,

AND THE JEWS ARE
THE SEED OF SATAN,

AND YOU ARE, YOU KNOW,
THE VICTIM OF THAT RIGHT NOW.

IF SOMEONE SAYS
I'M A VICTIM OF SOMETHING,

I'M ALREADY LIKE,
"I FEEL LIKE I'M A VICTIM.

MAN, I'M GETTING THE ****
KNOCKED OUT OF MY EVERYWHERE."

AND I REMEMBER I JUST ENJOYED
EVERY NIGHT

WHEN THEY ALL SHOWED UP
'CAUSE I KNEW

THAT SOMEONE WAS GONNA
EVENTUALLY ASK ME ABOUT ME.

SOME GUY SLAPPED ME IN MY
PUNK-ROCK HAIRCUT AND SAID,

"WHEN YOU GONNA SHAVE THIS
**** OFF YOUR HEAD, MAN?"

SO THEY ALL TOOK ME OUT
ON THE BACK PORCH THAT NIGHT

AND SHAVED MY HEAD.

AND THAT WAS IT --
I WAS IN.

THERE IS OFTEN TRAUMA
IN THESE INDIVIDUAL CASES

OF RADICALIZATION EARLY ON.

LIKE FRANK MEEINK --
IDENTITY CRISES,

A SENSE OF A LACK OF BELONGING,
"WHO AM I? WHERE DO I BELONG?"

A DESPERATE NEED
FOR BELONGING TO SOMETHING.

AND I THINK WE SEE,
FROM THE OUTSIDE,

EXTREMIST GROUPS
AS MANIFESTLY VIOLENT AND ANGRY,

BUT ACTUALLY WHAT THEY OFFER
THEIR MEMBERS

IS LOVE AND SUPPORT AND FAMILY
AND BELONGING AND CARE.

SIEG HEIL!
SIEG HEIL! SIEG HEIL!

AND THE SKINHEADS,
THEY WOULD ALWAYS SAY TO ME,

"FRANK, GOD'S TELLING YOU
THE TRUTH NOW.

HE'S JUST USING ME AS A TOOL
TO REVEAL THE TRUTH TO YOU.

HE NEEDS YOU.
HE NEEDS MORE SOLDIERS.

HE NEEDS MORE ANGELS
TO RUIN SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

AND AMERICA'S
SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

DO YOU WANT TO TAKE
THAT TASK ON?"

I'M A TEAM GUY.
I'M A SPORTS GUY.

I'M GOING,
"THIS IS MY TEAM NOW.

AND GOD CHOSE ME?

LIKE, I'M A WELFARE KID
FROM PHILADELPHIA.

HE CHOSE --
HE WANTS ME ON THIS TEAM?

HE WANTS TO GIVE IT ALL?
I'LL GIVE HIM MY ALL."

AND I DID, FOR YEARS.

SIEG HEIL! SIEG HEIL!

I GET INTO THIS
FULL-HEARTEDLY, 100%.

I BELIEVE EVERYTHING ABOUT IT.

I GO ON TO GO DO SOME TV SHOWS
FOR THE MOVEMENT...

GO ON OVER AND TALK
TO HIM BESIDE YOU.

YOU'VE BEEN SAYING THIS TO ME
AT EVERY COMMERCIAL.

DO YOU THINK YOU'RE SCARED JUST
BECAUSE OF OTHER PEOPLE

WHEN -- NOT BECAUSE
THEY'RE JUST DIFFERENT?

NO, I DON'T...
I AIN'T SCARED.

I AIN'T NOTHING...
I AIN'T AFRAID OF ANYBODY ELSE.

I'M JUST... I'M SO PROUD
OF MY RACE, AND I WOULD...

LIKE I SAID, I WOULD
LIVE OR DIE FOR MY RACE

IF ANYTHING EVER
CAME DOWN TO IT.

I COMMIT CRIME CONSISTENTLY.

I'M SELLING GUNS.

AND I KIDNAP ONE OF OUR RIVALS.

I HAD HEARD THAT HE WAS
KIND OF TRYING TO STEAL

SOME OF MY NEW RECRUITS,
AND I JUST COULDN'T HAVE THAT.

SO I CALLED HIM UP
AROUND CHRISTMASTIME,

SAID WE WERE HAVING A CHRISTMAS
PARTY AND THAT IT'S NEUTRAL,

WE'RE ALL COOL.

AND HE CAME OVER,
AND THERE WAS NO PARTY.

IT WAS JUST A COUPLE OF US
WAITING FOR HIM.

AIN'T NOBODY.
THEY'RE GONE. THEY'RE GONE.

I DIDN'T THINK HE WOULD EVER GO
TO THE COPS, YOU KNOW?

IT'S PART OF THE GAME.

JANUARY OR FEBRUARY,
THEY ARRESTED ME

AND CHARGED ME AS AN ADULT
FOR AGGRAVATED KIDNAPPING --

17 YEARS OLD.

PLEA BARGAIN WAS, I BELIEVE,
THREE TO FIVE YEARS,

BUT IT WAS A THREE-YEAR
DEFINITE.

GOOD EVENING.

FRANK'S STORY,
IT'S A STORY OF TRANSFORMATION.

IT'S A STORY OF REDEMPTION.

I GOT OUT OF PRISON.
I AIN'T GOT A JOB.

NO ONE'S HIRING A DUDE
WITH A SWASTIKA,

AGGRAVATED KIDNAPPING
ON HIS RECORD.

I MEAN, I'M JUST NOT
A HIREE-TYPE PERSON.

AND A BUDDY OF MINE CAME TO ME
AND SAID HE CAN GET ME A JOB

DOING ANTIQUE FURNITURE
AT AN ANTIQUES SHOW.

I SAID, "DEFINITELY,
I'LL TAKE THE JOB."

HE GOES, "THE DUDE'S A JEW
THAT RUNS THE COMPANY.

YOU STILL WANT THE JOB?"

AND I WAS LIKE, "YEAH.
IF I DON'T GOT TO TALK TO HIM

AND I COULD JUST WORK,
ABSOLUTELY."

AND HE GOES, "OH,
I TOLD KEITH ALL ABOUT YOU,

SAID YOU'RE A NEO-NAZI DUDE,
JUST GOT OUT OF THE JOINT."

HE GOES, "HE DOESN'T GIVE
A RAT'S ASS WHAT YOU BELIEVE --

JUST DON'T BREAK HIS FURNITURE."
HE JUST WAS ONE OF THOSE GUYS,

AND HE JUST FIT
EVERY STEREOTYPE.

AND SO,
END OF THE WEEKEND COMES,

AND I THINK HE'S NOT GONNA
PAY ME MY MONEY.

WHEN HE CAME UP TO ME,

I'D SET OUT THESE LAND MINES
IN THE CONVERSATION,

HOPING HE'D STEP ON THEM
AND SO WE COULD FIGHT.

I KNEW HE WAS NOT GONNA
PAY ME MY MONEY --

HE WAS GOING TO "JEW" ME.

AND HE COMES OUT AND GOES,
"I OWE YOU MONEY, DON'T I?"

AND I WAS LIKE,
"YES, YOU DO. YES, YOU DO.

YOU OWE ME SOME MONEY."
AND HE'S LIKE, "HOW MUCH?"

I SAID, "$300 -- HUNDRED BUCKS
A DAY," OR WHATEVER.

HE'S LIKE, "OH, THAT'S RIGHT."

"YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.
THAT'S RIGHT,"

YOU KNOW, LIKE,
JUST BEING A JERK.

AND HE PULLS OUT THIS BIG WAD
OF MONEY THAT HE MADE,

AND HE'S LIKE,
"HERE'S ONE, TWO, HERE'S THREE."

HE'S LIKE, "HOLD ON.
HERE'S AN EXTRA HUNDRED BUCKS.

YOU'RE A REALLY GOOD WORKER."

SO, HE GOES TO DROP ME OFF,

AND HE SAYS,
"WHAT DO YOU DO FOR A LIVING?"

AND I SAID,
"I DON'T DO ANYTHING.

I HAVE A SWASTIKA ON MY NECK."

AND HE GOES, "WELL, WHY DON'T
YOU COME WORK FOR ME?"

AND HE GAVE ME A FULL-TIME JOB.

I'M STILL A NEO-NAZI.

I STILL WEAR MY NAZI BOOTS
EVERY DAY AND EVERYTHING.

AND, FINALLY, ONE DAY,
I BROKE SOMETHING.

AND THAT WAS HIS BIG RULE, MAN,
"JUST DON'T BREAK MY FURNITURE."

AND SO I'M LOOKING UP AT THIS
JEWISH GUY, AND I'M LIKE,

"I AM SO SORRY. I AM SO STUPID,"
AND ALL I'M THINKING ABOUT

IS HOW MUCH HE'S GONNA
TAKE OUT OF MY PAY,

AND HE'S PROBABLY
GONNA FIRE ME.

AND HE GIVES ME
MY WHOLE THING OF MONEY,

DOESN'T OPEN IT UP
AND TAKE SOME OUT OR NOTHING.

HE'S LIKE, "HERE YOU GO.
I'LL SEE YOU MONDAY, RIGHT?"

AND I JUST FELT LIKE CRYING.
I WAS LIKE,

"YEAH, I'LL SEE YOU MONDAY.
I'LL SEE YOU MONDAY."

SOON AS I GOT HOME,
I RIPPED MY BOOTS OFF MY FEET.

I JUST -- I THREW THEM OUT
IN MY MOM'S BASEMENT,

AND, TO THIS DAY, I DON'T KNOW
WHERE THEY EVER WENT.

LIKE, I NEVER LOOKED
AT THEM AGAIN.

IT ISN'T A SYSTEMATIC THING.

WE CAN'T LEGISLATE
BEING A GOOD HUMAN BEING.

AND PEOPLE WOULD THROW BOTTLES
AT US AND SNOWBALLS,

AND THEY'D THROW BRICKS AT US,

AND THEY'D SCREAM
NASTY THINGS AT US

AS WE MARCHED
THROUGH THE STREETS

OF WEST CHESTER OR SPOKANE
OR WHEREVER.

NEVER ONCE DID I DUCK
A BOTTLE AND GO,

"WHOA, I BETTER RETHINK
MY BELIEFS HERE."

THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN.
IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.

BUT WHEN YOU START
HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH ME,

I DIDN'T KNOW
HOW TO FIGHT AGAINST THAT.

I'D EASILY FIGHT AGAINST
A BOTTLE BEING THROWN.

"THERE'S MY ENEMY. THERE HE IS.
HE'S RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF ME.

HE THREW THE BOTTLE AT ME.
I'M GONNA KICK HIS ASS."

WHEN YOU DIDN'T HAVE
THAT INTERACTION WITH ME,

I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO HANDLE IT.

SO WE HAVE TO GO AND HAVE THOSE
REAL CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE.

I WAS ANGRY, AND I KNEW THAT
I HAD A LIKING FOR VIOLENCE,

BUT I HAD STILL THOUGHT THAT,
DEEP DOWN INSIDE,

I THOUGHT I WAS A GOOD PERSON.

I STILL THOUGHT THAT WAY
OF MYSELF.

I THOUGHT IT WAS ABOUT
WHAT WAS RIGHT AND NOT RIGHT.

I THOUGHT THAT WHAT THEY WERE
TEACHING ME WAS RIGHT.

I ALWAYS THOUGHT --

UNTIL THE END, I REALLY THOUGHT

THAT THIS WAS 100%
THE RIGHT THING TO BELIEVE IN.

IT'S NOT A GIVEN
THAT SOMEBODY DERADICALIZES,

AND IT IS A HARD PROCESS
BECAUSE MANY OF THESE GROUPS

PROVIDE A VERY IDEALISTIC
SENSE OF PURPOSE AND MISSION

THAT THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE
TO FIND IN THEIR DAILY LIVES.

BUT THE ONE THING I THINK
WE STILL DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND

IS WHAT TAKES SOMEBODY
OVER THE EDGE

FROM ADHERING TO
EXTREMIST IDEOLOGIES

TO VIOLENCE.

THE EXPERIMENT WAS DEVISED

BY A PROFESSOR OF PSYCHOLOGY
AT STANFORD -- PHILIP ZIMBARDO.

IT GREW OUT OF A COURSE

CALLED "THE PSYCHOLOGY
OF IMPRISONMENT."

THE PURPOSE OF THE EXPERIMENT
WAS TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND,

TO FEEL, WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE
A PRISONER OR A PRISON GUARD.

THE CENTRAL TENET OF
ALL EXTREMIST IDEOLOGY

IS A SYSTEM OF
THE DEHUMANIZATION OF THE OTHER.

SO ONCE YOU SET UP
A FRAME OF MIND

WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY
US AGAINST THEM,

YOU CAN DO UNBELIEVABLE THINGS
IN TERMS OF DIVIDING PEOPLE

AND TURNING THEM
AGAINST EACH OTHER.

1971, PHILIP ZIMBARDO
AT STANFORD UNIVERSITY

AND HIS COLLEAGUES --
HE PLACED AN ADVERT IN, I THINK,

THE PALO ALTO NEWSPAPER
ASKING FOR PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE

IN A STUDY OF PRISON LIFE.

AND HE HAS CONSTRUCTED,
IN THE BASEMENT

OF THE PSYCHOLOGY DEPARTMENT
AT STANFORD UNIVERSITY,

A PRISON.

HE GETS THESE VOLUNTEERS,
WHO WERE STUDENTS,

AND THEY ARE RANDOMLY
ASSIGNED TO TWO GROUPS.

ROUGHLY HALF OF THEM
ARE PRISONERS,

HALF OF THEM ARE GUARDS.

THE FIRST DAY,
THE PRISONERS WERE PICKED UP

UNEXPECTEDLY BY THE POLICE,

AND THAT PUT THEM, MOST OF THEM,
IN A STATE OF SHOCK.

WE -- THEY WERE HUMILIATED.
THEY WERE STRIPPED NAKED.

THEY WERE DELOUSED.

AND THE IDEA,
AS TOLD BY ZIMBARDO, IS THAT,

HAVING ASSIGNED THEM
TO THOSE TWO ROLES,

HE STANDS BACK AND OBSERVES
WHAT IS GONNA HAPPEN.

AND HIS QUESTION IS,
WHAT WERE THE CONDITIONS

THAT WOULD LEAD PEOPLE
TO OPPRESS,

TO HATE,
TO BRUTALIZE OTHER PEOPLE?

AND WHAT HE OBSERVES
AND WHAT HE REPORTS IS THAT,

OVER THIS COURSE OF THE STUDY --
SIX DAYS --

THE GUARDS BECOME INCREASINGLY
BRUTAL TOWARDS THE PRISONERS.

THEY OPPRESS THEM.

WELCOME BACK, 5704.

THEY'RE GETTING THEM
TO WEAR CHAINS.

THEY'RE GETTING THEM
TO WASH OUT TOILETS.

THEY'RE GETTING THEM
TO DO PUSH-UPS.

DOWN! UP!

DOWN! UP!

THEN THEY'RE PUTTING THEIR FEET
IN THEIR BACKS

AS THEY DO THE PUSH-UPS,
AND THEY'RE SHOUTING AT THEM.

NOW THAT'S
MORE LIKE IT!

FIVE MORE SETS.
YOU GO THERE AND DO IT AGAIN.

AND THE PRISONERS,
FOR THEIR PART,

ARE BECOMING
INCREASINGLY DEPRESSED

AND DISPIRITED AND BROKEN.

AND THIS ESCALATES
AND ESCALATES AND ESCALATES

TO A POINT WHERE YOU'VE GOT
A KIND OF, LIKE, HELL ON EARTH.

AND AT THAT POINT,
THE STORY GOES,

ZIMBARDO'S GIRLFRIEND
TURNS UP AND SAYS,

"WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?"
AND HE'S KIND OF...

ZIMBARDO, WHO'S RUNNING
THE WHOLE OPERATION, SAYS,

"OH, MY GOD.
THIS IS A NIGHTMARE" --

BECAUSE HE'S GOT
CAUGHT UP IN IT, TOO --

AND SAYS, "WE MUST STOP THIS,"
AND THE WHOLE THING STOPS.

HIS STORY THEN IS,
WHAT HAS GONE ON HERE IS,

PEOPLE WILL CONFORM NATURALLY

TO THE REQUIREMENTS
OF THEIR ROLE.

SO WHEN WE OBSERVE BRUTALITY
IN THE WORLD,

THIS IS NOTHING
ABOUT THE PERSON,

AND IT'S EVERYTHING
ABOUT THE ROLES

THAT ARE REQUIRED OF THEM
IN A GIVEN SITUATION.

HERE HE COMES.
LAMBS TO THE SLAUGHTER.

PRISONER ARRIVED!

ONE DAY IN 2001,
I GOT A CALL FROM THE BBC,

AND THEY'D READ OR HEARD
ABOUT SOME OF OUR RESEARCH.

AND THEY SAID, "LOOK,
WE'RE INTERESTED IN REVISITING

THE STANFORD PRISON STUDY,

AND WOULD YOU BE INTERESTED
IN DOING THAT?"

EDWARDS.

MR. EDWARDS, YOU ARE
PRISONER NUMBER 637.

THIS WAS 20 YEARS AGO.
WE WERE YOUNG.

WE WERE FOOLISH.
SO WE SAID, "OKAY."

EFFECTIVELY, WE STARTED WITH
THE SAME SETUP AS ZIMBARDO.

WE TOOK... I THINK IT WAS 15 MEN.
THEY WEREN'T STUDENTS.

THEY WERE MEMBERS
OF THE GENERAL POPULATION.

AND WE ASSIGNED THEM TO BE
PRISONERS AND GUARDS.

AND THEN WE WATCHED
WHAT HAPPENED

AND JUST LET THE GUARDS
RUN THE PRISON.

NOW, IT WAS AT THAT POINT THAT
WE REALLY GOT THE FIRST SHOCK

BECAUSE, ACTUALLY, THE GUARDS
DIDN'T IDENTIFY WITH THEIR ROLE.

THEY WERE ACTUALLY
A BIT RELUCTANT

TO TAKE ON THE ROLE OF GUARDS.
THEY THOUGHT, "MM, NOT SURE."

I DON'T WANT TO BE A GUARD,
TO BE HONEST, REALLY.

I'D RATHER BE A PRISONER,
REALLY, IN ALL HONESTY.

MORE PARTICULARLY,

THEY SHOWED ABSOLUTELY
NO APPETITE, YOU KNOW,

TO INEVITABLY CONFORM
TO THE REQUIREMENTS

OF THE PRISON AND START
TO BRUTALIZE THE PRISONERS.

THE GUARDS DON'T REALLY WANT
TO ACT AS A GROUP.

THEY DON'T WANT
TO TAKE ON THEIR ROLES.

ALL OF THEM HATE
INEQUALITY,

DON'T WANT TO, YOU KNOW,
BE TYRANNICAL GUARDS,

DON'T WANT TO BE
OPPRESSED PRISONERS.

WE KNEW SOMETHING
WAS MISSING.

WE KNEW SOMETHING HAD GONE ON,
BUT WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS,

AND WE WERE THINKING,

"OH, WE MUST BE DOING
SOMETHING WRONG HERE."

WELL, ACTUALLY, THEN,
AT THAT POINT,

WE WENT BACK
AND LOOKED VERY CLOSELY

AT WHAT MATERIAL WAS AVAILABLE
FROM THE STANFORD STUDY.

TEST.
TEST ONE, TWO.

AND THEN WE GOT
ACCESS TO A TAPE

WHICH HAS JUST BEEN DIGITIZED
IN THE STANFORD ARCHIVE.

ON THAT TAPE,
WHAT YOU HEAR IS A MEETING

BETWEEN ZIMBARDO'S
PRISON WARDEN,

WHO'S ACTUALLY ONE OF HIS
COLLABORATORS, DAVID JAFFE,

AND A GUARD, JOHN MARK.

AND THIS GUARD HAS BEEN
A BIT RELUCTANT

TO KIND OF GET IN THE MIX.

WHEN YOU HEAR THE GUARD
BEING TOLD HOW TO BEHAVE,

I THINK THAT'S A SHOCK.

THE MORE THAT WE WENT INTO IT,
THE MORE WE REALIZED,

ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, ZIMBARDO
HAD DONE STUFF THAT WE HADN'T.

AND THE KEY REASON WHY WE
HADN'T FOUND THAT BEHAVIOR

ON THE PART OF THE GUARDS

WAS WE HAD NEVER LED THEM
TO BELIEVE

THAT THAT WAS WHAT WE WANTED.

SO, ESSENTIALLY, WE'RE SETTING
UP A PHYSICAL PRISON HERE

TO STUDY WHAT THAT DOES.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT
THE PSYCHOLOGY OF THE STUDIES,

WE JUST FOCUS
ON THE PARTICIPANTS

AND WHY THEY DID WHAT THEY DID.

BUT A CRITICAL PIECE
OF THE JIGSAW,

IF YOU LIKE,
IS WHAT WAS ZIMBARDO DID

TO MAKE THEM WANT TO DO
WHAT THEY DID.

WE CAN CREATE BOREDOM,

CAN CREATE A SENSE
OF FRUSTRATION,

CAN CREATE A SENSE
OF FEAR IN THEM.

THE STANFORD PRISON
EXPERIMENT TELLS US

THERE IS NO SUCH THING
AS A VIOLENT TYPE.

THIS IS ANYBODY.

THIS CAN BE ANYBODY...

IN THE RIGHT CONTEXT.

AUTHORITY PLAYS A ROLE, THEN,

AND LEADERSHIP, FOR CERTAIN.

AND WHAT'S REALLY SHOCKING IS
THE SPEED AT WHICH THAT HAPPENS.

THAT WAS THE THING THAT STRUCK
ME IN WATCHING YUGOSLAVIA

GOING FROM PEACEFUL
TO GENOCIDAL IN 18 MONTHS.

AND I THINK THIS IS WHAT WE SEE
WITH THE STANFORD EXPERIMENT --

THE SPEED AT WHICH YOU
CAN INCITE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR

IN ORDINARY PEOPLE.

THEY ARE NOT CRAZY.

THESE ARE NOT MENTALLY DERANGED
INDIVIDUALS.

THESE ARE NORMAL PEOPLE.

ZIMBARDO RAN STRAIGHT OUT
AFTER HAVING PRODUCED THE FINDINGS

AND TOLD THE WORLD ABOUT THEM.

HE WENT STRAIGHT INTO
SOME CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS,

AND I THINK THERE WAS
A LOT OF BUY-IN FOR THAT

FOR QUITE A LONG TIME.

THERE WAS A MASSIVE RESURGENCE

IN THE IRAQ WAR
AROUND ABU GHRAIB

BECAUSE, ACTUALLY,
WHAT YOU SAW THERE

WERE IMAGES THAT SEEMED TO BE
VERY MUCH ALIGNED

WITH THE KIND OF IMAGES
IN THE STANFORD STUDY,

AND THE STORY HE TOLD
IN THAT CONTEXT WAS,

"LOOK, WHERE YOU SAW
BRUTALITY IN ABU GHRAIB,

THIS WAS NOT BECAUSE
THE GUARDS WERE BRUTAL.

IT WAS NOTHING ABOUT
THE PEOPLE INVOLVED.

IT WAS EVERYTHING
ABOUT THE SITUATION."

AND AT THE TIME,

OURSELVES AND OTHER PEOPLE
WERE STARTING TO SAY,

"ACTUALLY, LEADERSHIP HAD TO BE
PART OF THE STORY HERE."

IT'S NOT SOMETHING WE'RE DOING
BECAUSE WE'RE JUST NASTY PEOPLE.

WE'RE DOING THIS
BECAUSE THAT CAUSE

IS REPRESENTED AS SOMETHING
THAT'S GLORIOUS

AND IS VALORIZED AS SOMETHING

THAT IS NOBLE AND GOOD.

IN THE CONTEXT OF ABU GHRAIB,

I WOULD BE ASKING
THESE SOLDIERS,

"IN YOUR MIND,
WHO GAVE YOU THAT ORDER?

YOUR ENTIRE TRAINING
IS TO FOLLOW COMMAND.

WHERE DID YOU FEEL THAT
THAT COMMAND CAME FROM?"

"HOW DID YOU FEEL
IT WAS JUSTIFIED?

DID YOU HAVE ANY SENSE
OF REPERCUSSION?

DID YOU FEEL THAT YOU WOULD BE
TAKEN TO TASK FOR THIS BEHAVIOR?

DID YOU FEEL IT WAS RIGHT?

DID YOU ULTIMATELY FEEL
THAT IT WAS RIGHT?"

THE WAY IN WHICH
LEADERS MOBILIZE THEIR FOLLOWERS

IS TO INSTILL IN THEIR FOLLOWERS
A SENSE OF

IMMEDIATE EXISTENTIAL THREAT
OR HUGE MORAL REWARD.

YOU HAVE A HIGHER PURPOSE.

SO NO MATTER HOW SAD OR SMALL
YOUR LIFE WAS BEFORE,

YOU ARE NOW SOMEBODY.

I SAW THE WORLD
IN BLACK AND WHITE

FROM THE BEGINNING.

AS FAR BACK AS I CAN REMEMBER,

I WAS ALWAYS NOT SEARCHING FOR
A TRUTH THAT BELONGED TO ME,

BUT ONE SINGLE OBJECTIVE TRUTH.

I WENT THROUGH SEVERE ABUSE
IN THE EARLY STAGES OF MY LIFE.

THAT LED ME TO RUN AWAY
WHEN I WAS 16,

TO FLEE THE ABUSE.

I STARTED SELLING DRUGS
TO SURVIVE.

I GOT CAUGHT WITH A LOT
OF DRUGS, TRUTH BE TOLD.

SO I ENDED UP SITTING IN PRISON
FOR 11 MONTHS.

AND, OF COURSE, THERE'S
NOTHING TO DO IN JAIL BUT READ,

SO OF COURSE I DID,

AND I FOUND AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY
OF MALCOLM X.

THAT'S ACTUALLY
WHAT LED ME TO ISLAM.

I HADN'T READ THE QUR'AN.

I COULD RELATE
WITH MALCOLM'S STORY.

HE HAD A VERY TRAUMATIC
UPBRINGING,

BUT THEN HE WAS EDUCATED
IN GOOD SCHOOLS, LIKE ME,

AND I WANTED TO BE
THE RADICAL THAT MALCOLM WAS.

THIS REVIVAL...

IT TOOK ME ABOUT A YEAR
TO ACTUALLY CONVERT,

AND I BECAME
YOUNUS ABDULLAH MUHAMMAD.

- WHAT IS YOUR NAME?
- MUHAMMAD.

- MUHAMMAD WHAT?
- YOUNUS ABDULLAH MUHAMMAD.

WHAT'S YOUR NAME,
THE ONE YOU'RE BORN WITH?

YOUNUS ABDULLAH MUHAMMAD.
THAT'S MY NAME.

- WHO DO YOU REPRESENT?
- I REPRESENT ISLAM.

I TOTALLY TRANSFORMED
MY LIFE THROUGH ISLAM.

I DIDN'T USE DRUGS, ALCOHOL
FOR 14 YEARS,

AND I FOUND ISLAM
WAS SORT OF PURE FOR ME.

I WAS OPPOSED TO CONSUMERISM.

I FELT LIKE PEOPLE
DIDN'T UNDERSTAND

THAT THERE WAS
A DEEPER COMPONENT TO LIFE

THAN SIMPLY OBTAINING THINGS.

SO, I LEARNED ABOUT A NEW --

SORT OF THE SALAFI JIHADIST
MENTALITY, OR THE IDEOLOGY,

AND I STARTED TO ABSORB IT.

OUR HATRED AND ENMITY EXTENDS
TO ALL THOSE

THAT SUPPORT THE JEWISH STATE
WITH THEIR WEALTH,

WITH THEIR WORD,
AND WITH THEIR WEAPONS.

WE ISSUE
THE FOLLOWING...

SO I DECIDED TO START
MY OWN ORGANIZATION.

THESE ARE THE BROTHERS
OF REVOLUTION MUSLIM.

WE TELL YOU MUSLIMS
TO RISE UP.

THEY ARE RECRUITING JUST OUTSIDE
NEW YORK'S 96th STREET MOSQUE.

...THAT THE QUR'AN COMMANDS
THAT YOU DISAVOW

AND MAKE HATRED AND ENMITY
BETWEEN DEMOCRACY.

MY ORGANIZATION
WAS GONNA BE DIFFERENT.

MY ORGANIZATION WAS GONNA STAND
ON THE CORNER AND SAY,

"YES, I LOVE OSAMA BIN LADEN,
AND I SUPPORT HIM."

THAT YOU SEE
THE UNITED STATES

AS THE ENEMY
IT REALLY IS!

IT WAS THE FIRST TIME IN
THE UNITED STATES THAT, I THINK,

ANYBODY DID SO
IN THE POST-9/11 ARENA.

SO EVERY FRIDAY THE MUSLIMS HAVE

WHAT COULD BE CONSIDERED
THEIR CHURCH,

WHERE THE IMAM GIVES
ABOUT A 45-MINUTE LECTURE,

AND THEN EVERYBODY
PRAYS TOGETHER.

AND FRIDAY'S PROBABLY
THE BUSIEST DAY AT THE MOSQUE.

SO FOR FUNDRAISING PURPOSES,
RECRUITMENT PURPOSES,

AND IN ORDER TO SHOW THAT WE
WERE ACTIVE IN THE COMMUNITY,

WHAT WE WOULD DO IS WE WOULD
COME HERE RIGHT OUT FRONT.

THEY COULDN'T STOP US BECAUSE
THIS IS A PUBLIC STREET.

THAT'S PRIVATE PROPERTY.

THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING
ABOUT A PUBLIC STREET.

SO EVEN THOUGH THEY DIDN'T
WANT US TO PREACH HERE,

WE UTILIZED THE LAW

IN ORDER TO JUST FORCE IT
DOWN THEIR THROATS.

SO OUTSIDE THE MOSQUE,
WE WOULD SIT ON THE CORNER.

WE WOULD SET UP A TABLE.
WE WOULD HAVE A BANNER.

WE WOULD GIVE AWAY DVDs OF OUR
SCHOLAR OR OF OUR WEEKLY LESSON.

WE ALSO HAD A DOCUMENT WE CALLED
"THE RADICAL REVIEW" --

SHORT LITTLE HANDOUT,
GET THEM TO THE WEBSITE.

SO THAT WAS BASICALLY
HOW WE RECRUITED.

YOU DEFINE TERRORISM
AS GOING

AND KILLING
AN INNOCENT CIVILIAN.

THAT'S WHAT YOUR... HOW DO YOU...?

I DEFINE TERRORISM
AS MAKING THEM FEARFUL

SO THAT THEY THINK TWICE
BEFORE THEY GO RAPE YOUR MOTHER

OR KILL YOUR BROTHER
OR GO ONTO YOUR LAND

AND TRY TO STEAL
YOUR RESOURCES.

THROUGH TRIAL AND ERROR,
WE LEARNED THAT THERE ARE

CERTAIN THINGS
THAT ARE INCREDIBLY BENEFICIAL

WITH REGARD TO
GENERATING RECRUITMENT

AND RADICALIZATION
OF OTHERS, RIGHT?

SO, YOU HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION

TO WHAT'S GOING ON
WITH THE KIDS ON THE STREET

BECAUSE IF YOU'RE
A 40-YEAR-OLD RECRUITER,

YOU'RE STILL GONNA RECRUIT
22-YEAR-OLDS

WHEN IT COMES
TO SALAFI JIHADISM, RIGHT?

SO YOU GOT TO UNDERSTAND
HOW THE KIDS ARE MOVING.

AND NOW IT'S ALL ABOUT SLOGANS
AND MEMES AND VIOLENCE.

AND IF ISIS HAS ANYTHING
TO OFFER, IT'S VIOLENCE.

JESSE WAS VERY INFLUENTIAL.

HE'S EXTREMELY CHARISMATIC.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO?!

AN AMERICAN KID ABLE
TO SPEAK TO AMERICAN KIDS.

AND IN THAT SENSE, EXTREMELY
IMPORTANT TO THE MOVEMENT,

BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND
BETTER THAN ANYBODY

THE NEED TO SPEAK TO PEOPLE
IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGES,

WITH THEIR OWN SEMANTIC,

IN THEIR OWN
CULTURAL CONTEXT.

THE QUR'AN SAYS VERY CLEARLY
IN THE ARABIC LANGUAGE...

THIS MEANS "TERRORIZE THEM."

JESSE WAS PROBABLY, IN AMERICA,

I WOULD SAY THEMOST
PROLIFIC RECRUITER

FOR AL-QAEDA DURING THE PERIOD
OF TIME WHEN HE WAS ACTIVE.

NUMEROUS FOILED PLOTS HAVE BEEN
LINKED BACK TO THE WEBSITE

THAT HE CREATED
AND THAT HE MODERATED,

SO HE WAS REALLY
IN THE MOVEMENT.

AND THEIR PROPAGANDA
BASICALLY BEGINS

WITH THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE --

"THE WORLD IS AT WAR
WITH ISLAM."

ALLAHU AKBAR!

AND THEY CALL OUT
TO FELLOW MUSLIMS

TO COME AND DEFEND
THEIR BROTHERS AND SISTERS.

THESE YOUNG MEN CANNOT
AFFORD TO JUST SIT AND WATCH

AS THE AMERICAN CRUSADERS
PERPETRATED

THE MOST HIDEOUS ATROCITIES
AGAINST THEIR MUSLIM BROTHERS.

A LOT
OF THE YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN

THAT I'VE SPOKEN TO,

AT LEAST IN THE FIRST INITIAL
STAGES OF THEIR RECRUITMENT,

WHAT IS HAPPENING IS THEY

ARE ACTUALLY RESPONDING
FROM A PLACE OF GOODNESS.

THEY'RE RESPONDING
FROM A PLACE OF COMPASSION,

AND THAT COMPASSION
IS BEING WEAPONIZED.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT,

"COME HERE
AND BEHEAD CIVILIANS."

WHY WOULD THAT
BE APPEALING TO ANYONE,

EXCEPT FOR MAYBE A VERY SMALL
NUMBER OF TRUE PSYCHOPATHS?

OBVIOUSLY, YOU NEED TO APPEAL
TO SOME HIGHER SENSE OF PURPOSE

IN ORDER FOR PEOPLE TO WANT
TO UPEND THEIR LIVES.

WE TELL YOU MUSLIMS
TO RISE UP.

ONE OF THE MISTAKES
I THINK PEOPLE MAKE

IN THEIR ASSUMPTIONS
ABOUT EXTREMISTS

IS THAT THEY ARE SOMEHOW
HOPELESS FIGURES.

THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

YOU HAVE SMART, CHARISMATIC,
THOUGHTFUL INDIVIDUALS

LIKE JESSE
WHO ENTER THESE MOVEMENTS,

AND THAT COMBINATION
MAKES THEM EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE

AND IS WHAT MAKES THEM
SUCCESSFUL.

SO I THINK JESSE,
IN SOME SENSE,

IS TYPICAL OF A LEADERSHIP ROLE
WITHIN AN EXTREMIST MOVEMENT.

"PERSONAL STORY" SEGMENT
TONIGHT --

THE PROGRAM "SOUTH PARK" IS
A CONTROVERSIAL SATIRICAL SHOW

THAT OFTEN MOCKS RELIGION.

LAST WEEK, "SOUTH PARK" WENT
AFTER THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD.

THERE'S SOMEBODY I'VE ALWAYS
WANTED TO MEET FACE-TO-FACE.

IF YOU COULD GET HIM TO SHOW
UP IN YOUR TOWN...

SURE!
WHO IS IT?

WE CAN GET ANYBODY
FOR YOU.

MUHAMMAD, THE PROPHET
OF THE MUSLIM FAITH.

OOOOH...

THE WRITERS OF
THE CARTOON "SOUTH PARK"

ANNOUNCED THEY WERE GOING TO
PORTRAY THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD.

NOW A MAN NAMED
JESSE CURTIS MORTON,

WHO IS ALSO KNOWN AS
YOUNUS ABDULLAH MUHAMMAD,

HAS BEEN THREATENING THE WRITERS

OF THE TELEVISION COMEDY SERIES
"SOUTH PARK."

WELL, AFTER THAT EPISODE RAN,

THE FOLLOWING QUOTE APPEARED
ON A PRO-JIHADI WEBSITE

TARGETING THE CREATORS
OF "SOUTH PARK" --

"WE HAVE TO WARN
MATT AND TREY..."

THEY ARE THE CREATORS.

"...THAT WHAT THEY ARE DOING
IS STUPID

AND THEY WILL PROBABLY
WIND UP LIKE

THEO VAN GOGH
FOR AIRING THIS SHOW.

THIS IS NOT A THREAT,
BUT A WARNING OF THE REALITY

OF WHAT WILL LIKELY HAPPEN
TO THEM."

THEO VAN GOGH, AS YOU MAY KNOW,

IS A DUTCH CITIZEN MURDERED
AFTER CRITICIZING ISLAM.

SO IT WAS A CLEAR THREAT,

AND I USED IT TO GENERATE
A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF CONTROVERSY

AND ATTENTION TOWARDS
REVOLUTION MUSLIM'S WEBSITE.

BUT YOU GOT TO DEAL
WITH REALITY.

THESE PEOPLE ARE KILLERS,
AND THEY WILL KILL YOU.

IT WAS BEING DETERMINED BY
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT,

THE NYPD,

IF THEY COULD CHARGE ME
AS A RESULT OF THE POST.

I WASN'T INDICTED RIGHT AWAY
OR ARRESTED RIGHT AWAY.

MY CODEFENDANT ULTIMATELY WAS
ARRESTED ABOUT SIX MONTHS LATER.

I KNEW HE WAS GONNA GET
A LOT OF TIME FOR THAT.

SO WE GOT ON THE NEXT PLANE
LEAVING THE COUNTRY,

NOT KNOWING IF I'D BE ABLE TO.

I PACKED ALL MY FAMILY UP
AND JUST MOVED THEM

TO CASABLANCA, MOROCCO,
TO GET AWAY.

SO, I WAS TEACHING ENGLISH,
AND I WAS TEACHING,

AT A UNIVERSITY,
BUSINESS CLASSES IN CASABLANCA

WHEN THE ARAB SPRING
BROKE OUT.

SO I STARTED TO HAVE
THESE CONVERSATIONS

WITH MY STUDENTS AFTER CLASS.

I REALIZED THAT THEY REALLY
JUST WANTED THINGS

THAT I HAD TAKEN FOR GRANTED
MY ENTIRE LIFE --

AN ABILITY TO SPEAK THEIR MINDS,

AN ABILITY TO ELECT
REPRESENTATIVES.

AND THEN, ON THE OTHER HAND,

I HAD ALL THIS ANTI-AMERICAN
SENTIMENT COMING TO ME.

THEY WERE INSULTING AMERICANS,
SAYING THEY'RE ALL FAT,

THEY DON'T FEED YOU
WHEN YOU GO TO THEIR HOUSE.

AND FOR THE FIRST TIME
IN MY LIFE,

STARTED TO DEFEND
THE UNITED STATES.

HIS NAME IS JESSE MORTON.

BORN IN PENNSYLVANIA.

2010, HE FLED TO MOROCCO,
WHERE HE WAS ARRESTED.

SO I WAS ARRESTED IN
CASABLANCA ONE DAY, OUT OF NOWHERE.

I WAS ARRESTED TWO WEEKS AFTER
OSAMA BIN LADEN WAS KILLED

IN THE ABBOTTABAD RAIDS,

MAY 23rd OF 2011.

AND I WAS SET FOR EXTRADITION
BACK TO THE UNITED STATES.

BUT WHEN THEY PUT ME
ON THE PLANE,

THEY PUT THE BLINDFOLDERS ON,
THEY PLUGGED MY EARS.

THE SECRET SERVICE, NAVY SEALS,
THE WHOLE NINE YARDS,

DRESSED ME UP LIKE
YOU WOULD DRESS SOMEBODY UP

GOING TO GUANTANAMO OR BAGRAM.

THEY WALKED ME WITH
THE CHAIN LINKS DOWN THE TARMAC.

WHEN THEY PUT ME ON THE PLANE,
A SECRET SERVICE AGENT,

FIRST THING HE DOES IS PUT
MY QUR'AN DOWN IN FRONT OF ME.

HE SAYS, "DO YOU WANT TO HOLD
ONTO THAT WHILE WE FLY?"

AND THEN HE ASKED ME, HE SAYS,
"TECHNICALLY, I GOT TO ASK YOU,

DO YOU WANT ME
TO CALL YOU JESSE?

OR DO YOU WANT ME
TO CALL YOU YOUNUS?"

AND I THINK HE EXPECTED ME
TO SAY YOUNUS.

I EXPECTED MYSELF TO SAY YOUNUS.

BUT FOR SOME REASON
I SAID JESSE MORTON.

I WANTED TO BE CALLED
JESSE MORTON, AND THIS WAS...

IT JUST STANDS OUT
AS THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT

FOR MY STARTING POINT
FOR MY DERADICALIZATION.

HE WAS RELEASED FROM JAIL.

HE INITIALLY GOT A JOB AT
GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY

AT THE PROGRAM ON EXTREMISM.

THINGS LOOKED REALLY GOOD
FOR HIM FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS,

AND THEN HE SLIPPED
AND STARTED USING DRUGS AGAIN

AND WAS IMMEDIATELY FIRED
BY G.W.

WHEN HE STARTED TO FEEL LIKE HIS
IDEOLOGY WAS FALLING APART...

THIS IS NOT SOME PASSING THING.

THIS WAS DEEPLY INSIDE HIS DNA.

HE REALLY THOUGHT HE WAS
DOING THE RIGHT THING.

AND IT WAS VERY FRIGHTENING,
I THINK,

WHEN THAT WORLD VIEW STARTED
TO CRUMBLE AROUND HIM

AND HE BEGAN TO REALIZE,
YOU KNOW,

THAT HE HAD LED ALL THESE PEOPLE
INTO THEIR ARREST,

INTO FOILED PLOTS,
INTO ATTEMPTS AT VIOLENCE,

AND THAT MAYBE HE WAS WRONG.

FOR US AS EUROPEANS,

IT IS ONLY NORMAL AGAIN
WHEN WE ARE GREAT AGAIN.

HAIL TRUMP! HAIL OUR PEOPLE!
HAIL VICTORY!

THE FAR RIGHT AND THE ISLAMIST
PARTS OF THE SPECTRUM

ACTUALLY SHARE
THE SAME NARRATIVE --

YOU KNOW,
"MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY,

AND WE ARE ULTIMATELY
INCOMPATIBLE."

AND THAT NOW IS MAINSTREAMING

IN WAYS THAT WE COULDN'T HAVE
IMAGINED BEFORE.

THEY ARE ORGANIZING
TACTICALLY ACROSS BORDERS,

ACROSS A FAIRLY WIDE
IDEOLOGICAL SPECTRUM.

AND THE ULTIMATE OBJECTIVE
OF THESE GROUPS IS DIVISION,

IS POLARIZATION,
A SORT OF DEEP POLARIZATION.

BLOOD AND SOIL!
BLOOD AND SOIL!

WE'RE AN AMERICAN
ORGANIZATION,

AND OUR MEMBERSHIP
REPRESENTS THIS.

WHAT HAPPENED WITH
DONALD TRUMP COMING INTO OFFICE,

AND PEOPLE THINK, "WOW, THAT WAS
THE RISE OF THIS NEW PARTY."

NO. IT WAS ALWAYS THERE,

AND THEN, KNOWING THAT REALLY
THE BIGGEST RISE WAS IN 2008.

NBC NEWS CALLING FOR
THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE.

THAT'S WHEN THE MOVEMENT
GOT GIGANTIC OVERNIGHT.

THERE WAS A BLACK DUDE
IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

I WANT OUR ACTIONS TO TELL EVERY
CHILD IN EVERY NEIGHBORHOOD,

"YOUR LIFE MATTERS."

MAN AND WOMAN, YOUNG AND OLD,

BLACK AND WHITE, LATINO, ASIAN,

IMMIGRANT, NATIVE AMERICAN,
GAY, STRAIGHT,

AMERICANS WITH MENTAL ILLNESS
OR PHYSICAL DISABILITY,

EVERYBODY MATTERS.

I WOULD BUILD A GREAT WALL,

AND NOBODY BUILDS WALLS
BETTER THAN ME, BELIEVE ME,

AND I'LL BUILD THEM
VERY INEXPENSIVELY.

DONALD TRUMP
ANNOUNCES HIS CANDIDACY

AND GOES RIGHT INTO THE WALL.

THEY'RE BRINGING DRUGS,
THEY'RE BRINGING CRIME.

AND HE SAYS,
"WE GOTTA BUILD THIS WALL

'CAUSE THERE ARE DRUG DEALERS,
RAPISTS, GANG MEMBERS."

THEY'RE RAPISTS.

HE JUST SPOKE TO EVERY RACIST

THAT CAME OUT IN 2008.

HE JUST SPOKE TO EVERY ONE
OF THEM AND SAID,

"I BELIEVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE,"

AND THEY ALL POPPED THEIR HEADS
BACK UP AND WAS LIKE,

"YES, OUR GUY IS RUNNING,"
YOU KNOW?

WE WANT TRUMP!
WE WANT TRUMP!

CANDIDATE
AND PRESIDENT TRUMP TAPPED INTO

THIS FEAR OF CHANGE...

WE'VE GOT TO FIGHT BACK.
WE'VE GOT TO FIGHT BACK.

...THE NOTION
OF CULTURAL CHANGE.

IN FACT, IT'S BEEN TWISTED TO BE
CALLED WHITE CULTURAL GENOCIDE.

JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US!

JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US!

JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US!

AT THE TIKI TORCH MARCH
IN CHARLOTTESVILLE

IN AUGUST OF '17,

THEY THOUGHT THAT THEY COULD
USE THE DEBATE

OVER THE CONFEDERATE MONUMENTS

AS A WAY TO WEDGE
INTO THE MAINSTREAM

THE NOTION THAT CITIZENSHIP...

YOUR AMERICA'S GONE,
****!

...THE TRUE AMERICAN
IS ONE THAT HAS WHITE SKIN,

AND EVERYBODY ELSE IS AN ENEMY

THAT IS TRYING
TO COME FROM WITHIN.

OUR MONUMENTS
ARE BEING TORN DOWN.

THEY ARE BEING REMOVED
AND REPLACED.

AND OUR PEOPLE ARE BEING
TORN DOWN AND REPLACED.

WHITE PRIDE!

THERE'S NOTHING WRONG
WITH BEING PROUD OF WHO YOU ARE.

WITH ALL THESE
WHITE SUPREMACISTS,

WHITE NATIONALISTS,
NAZIS, KLAN SYMPATHIZERS,

WE HADN'T SEEN
ANYTHING LIKE THAT

CERTAINLY IN MY
PROFESSIONAL CAREER,

AND I'VE BEEN DOING THIS
FOR OVER THREE DECADES.

- WHITE LIVES MATTER!
- WHOO!

STAY BACK! STAY BACK!
STAY BACK!

WHEN CHARLOTTESVILLE
BROKE DOWN, THE FIRST NIGHT,

I HAD HEARD THAT SOME OF THEM
WERE SAYING STUFF ABOUT JEWS,

SO I WAS LIKE,
"ALRIGHT, I'M KIND OF..."

YOU KNOW, IT KIND OF GOT
MY INTEREST THERE,

"JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US."

AND I'M LIKE,
"MAN, WHO'S LEADING THIS?"

AND THEN I STARTED SEEING THAT
THERE WAS SOME REAL NEO-NAZIS

THERE, GUYS THAT CAME UP KIND OF
WHEN I CAME UP THAT ARE NOW,

YOU KNOW, THE INTERNET GUYS
OF THE MOVEMENT,

AND I'M LIKE, "THERE'S SOME
BIG NAMES DOWN THERE."

- BLOOD AND SOIL!
- WHITE LIVES MATTER!

BACK UP.
BACK UP ON THE STEPS!

- WHAT THE ****?!
- BACK!

WHAT'S GOING ON
RIGHT NOW WITH ALL THESE GROUPS

IS THEY'RE REPACKAGING
WHAT WE SOLD IN THE '90s,

REPACKAGING FEAR,
REPACKAGING HATE.

IT'S ALL THE SAME.

IT'S ABSOLUTELY 100%
ALL THE SAME.

IT'S A BUNCH OF MEN WHO ARE
FEARFUL AND THEY'RE SCARED

AND THEY ARE GONNA LASH OUT
VIOLENTLY.

THERE'S NO OTHER END
TO THIS RIGHT NOW

THAN VIOLENCE SOMEWHERE.

WE'RE MARCHING TO McINTIRE --

WE'RE MARCHING TO McINTIRE PARK!

CHARLOTTESVILLE POLICE
DEPARTMENT COMES IN

AN HOUR AND A HALF AFTER OUR
PERMIT STARTED AT 10:00 A.M.

AND DECLARES
AN UNLAWFUL ASSEMBLY.

AND IT WAS A HECKLER'S VETO.

WE, OUR PEOPLE,
WERE NOT BEING VIOLENT.

THEY WERE BEING VIOLENT TO US.

THERE IS
A CHOREOGRAPHED DANCE

THAT EXISTS BETWEEN
THE COUNTERPROTESTERS,

ANTIFA,
AND WHITE NATIONALISTS.

WE HAVE REPLACED YOU!

ANTIFA IS BANGING DRUMS

AND YELLING
AND BEING IN THEIR FACE

TO RESIST
THIS WHITE NATIONALISM.

...RIGHT NOW
OR YOU WILL BE ARRESTED.

ANTIFA, AT VARYING LEVELS,
EXCUSES OR ACCEPTS VIOLENCE.

THESE ARE NOT
MARTIN LUTHER KING FOLKS

IN THEIR HARDEST INCARNATION.

BUT I WANT TO BE CLEAR HERE --

NOT ONLY IS THERE
NO MORAL EQUIVALENCY,

ANTIFA DOES NOT HAVE
A DIRECT CONNECTION

TO 1600 PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE.

WHITE NATIONALISTS DO.

YOU HAD PEOPLE IN THAT GROUP
THAT WERE THERE TO PROTEST

THE TAKING DOWN OF, TO THEM,
A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT STATUE.

YOU'RE CHANGING HISTORY.
YOU'RE CHANGING CULTURE.

THE FORMER HEAD OF THE
KKK, DAVID DUKE, OVER THE WEEKEND,

TWEETING, "GRATEFUL TO THE
PRESIDENT FOR HIS WORDS TODAY."

"THANK YOU, PRESIDENT TRUMP,
FOR YOUR HONESTY AND COURAGE

TO TELL THE TRUTH
ABOUT CHARLOTTESVILLE."

WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP,
THEY REALLY SAW HIM

AS SOMEONE WHO -- HE'S GONNA
PUSH A PRO-WHITE AGENDA.

HE'S OPENED UP A DOOR.

HIS MOVEMENT
HAS OPENED UP A DOOR.

AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED.

OUR COUNTRY!

I'M A PROUD **** AMERICAN!
MADE IN USA, ****!

MADE IN **** USA!

GO **** COOK
MY BURRITO, ****!

WHILE THE VIOLENCE IS
THE MOST SORT OF OBVIOUS ASPECT

OF EXTREMIST ORGANIZATIONS
AND MOVEMENTS,

WE SEE ALL SORTS OF
EXTREMIST GROUPS BRAND-CLEANSE.

THEY'VE STARTED TO SOFTEN
THE LANGUAGE THAT THEY USE,

TO SOME EXTENT,
IN ORDER TO REACH OUT

TO MUCH MORE MAINSTREAM
AUDIENCES.

WE'VE SEEN THAT NOW
WITH THE ALT-RIGHT,

BY NOT PUTTING
THE RACIST FOOT FIRST,

TALKING INSTEAD
ABOUT CULTURAL THREATS.

AND THE PATHWAY
TO RADICALIZATION,

IT IS NOT A BOTTOM-UP MOVEMENT.

THESE ARE MOVEMENTS
THAT ARE ORCHESTRATED,

MANIPULATED TOP-DOWN
ACROSS THE WHOLE OF THE WEST,

I THINK, IN BIG WAYS,
BUT ALSO INTERNATIONALLY.

I REACT TO THE FACT THAT
THERE'S SO MUCH ISLAMOPHOBIA

AND SO MUCH FEAR OF
THE AMERICAN MUSLIM COMMUNITY

BY BLAMING MYSELF.

WE WILL FIGHT YOU AND DESTROY
YOU IF WE HAVE TO!

NOT IN TOTALITY,
BUT WE PLAYED A MAJOR ROLE.

HOW YOU DOING?

I DON'T REMEMBER
HOW LONG IT'S BEEN.

VERY GOOD.
VERY GOOD. VERY GOOD.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I

WOULD LIKE TO MAKE AMENDS FOR
THE MOST

IS THE FACT THAT A RELIGION
THAT I BELIEVED IN

AND THAT HELPED ME SO MUCH
TO GET MY LIFE TOGETHER,

I BETRAYED THE ADHERENCE
OF THAT RELIGION.

IT'S A MOTIVATING FACTOR,
BUT TRUTH BE TOLD,

IT'S ALSO THE ROOT
OF A LOT OF GUILT AND SHAME.

I CAN'T WATCH THE OLD VIDEOS

OF YOUNUS ABDULLAH MUHAMMAD
PREACHING.

IT MAKES ME SICK.

LET'S GO.

I'LL GIVE YOU THE TOUR.

DERADICALIZATION IS

SUCH A COMPLICATED
AND MULTI-DIMENSIONAL PROCESS.

IT MEANS TO CHANGE AND ALTER
YOUR POSITION IN A MOVEMENT

SO THAT YOU CAN START
TO WALK AWAY FROM EXTREMISM

STEP BY STEP.

HAPPY TO SEE YOU.I'M HAPPY TO SEE YOU, TOO.

YEAH. MM.

HOW ARE YOU DOING? I'M DOING VERY WELL.

YEAH?
MM-HMM.

THE REASON THAT WE STARTED

TO REACH OUT
TO FORMER EXTREMISTS

WAS BECAUSE WE NEED
TO HAVE THE PEOPLE

WHO UNDERSTAND
THEIR COMMUNITIES,

WHO DEEPLY UNDERSTAND THE NEEDS
AND THE RESPONSES THAT WORK.

WHEN WE HAD
THAT SESSION

AND WE WERE LOOKING
AT GETTING PROPER SUPPORT

FOR PEOPLE IN YOUR SITUATION,
CAN YOU REMEMBER?

YEAH, FOR SURE.

I MEAN, IT WAS AWKWARD,

'CAUSE THAT WAS RIGHT
AT MY TRANSITION POINT,

WHERE THINGS STARTED
TO GET CLOUDY,

WHERE I WAS JUST LIKE,
"I DON'T KNOW

IF CAN DO THIS,"
YOU KNOW?

WHAT WE STARTED
TO FIND AS WE REACHED OUT

TO THESE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAD
COME OUT OF THESE ORGANIZATIONS

WAS HOW SIMILAR
THEIR PERSONAL JOURNEYS WERE,

THEIR TRAJECTORIES IN AND OUT,

EVEN THOUGH THE IDEOLOGIES
DIFFERED.

AND THE WAY IN WHICH
WE WORKED WITH THEM,

WE STARTED TO LOOK AT WAYS
IN WHICH TO SUPPORT THEM

IN PASSING THAT FORWARD.

THE QUESTION IS ULTIMATELY,
LIKE, WHERE DO I GO FROM HERE?

AND IF YOU LEAVE
THAT PERSON

INDEPENDENT AND ALONE
AND IN ISOLATION

AND THEY DON'T HAVE
A SOCIAL SENSE

OF BELONGING OR SOME
OTHER ALTERNATIVE NETWORK

AND OTHER ALTERNATIVE
AVENUE TO ENGAGE...

YEAH.

...THERE'S GOING TO BE
COMPLICATIONS.

AND THE PROBLEM IS,
IS, LIKE,

YOU DON'T HAVE
THAT COMMUNITY IN PLACE,

WHICH IS WHAT I THINK
MY KEY TAKEAWAY IS,

THAT YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE
A COMMUNITY.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS
ACCOMPANIED MY DERADICALIZATION

IS THIS IDENTIFICATION THAT
THERE ARE VERY SIMILAR PATTERNS

BETWEEN JIHADISM
AND RIGHT-WING EXTREMISM.

HEY, JASON.
HEY, JESSE.

NICE TO FINALLY SEE YOU
IN PERSON.

NICE TO MEET YOU.

FEEL LIKE I ALREADY KNOW YOU,
BUT WE'LL HAVE A CONVERSATION.

HOW'D YOU GET HERE?
WAS IT GOOD?

SO, LAST YEAR, WHEN THERE WAS
THE CHARLOTTESVILLE

UNITE THE RIGHT RALLY,
I WROTE AN OP-ED PIECE...

I MEAN, AS YOU KNOW, WE'VE BEEN
TALKING FOR SOME TIME NOW.

YEP.

...ABOUT HOW THE IDEOLOGIES
ARE SIMILAR,

BUT ALSO WROTE ABOUT
JASON KESSLER

AS A FIGURE WHO WAS LESS EXTREME
BUT REPRESENTED A SIMILAR ROLE

TO THE ONE THAT I PLAYED
AT REVOLUTION MUSLIM.

I'M CURIOUS TO KNOW,
HOW DID YOU FEEL

WHEN YOU GOT AN E-MAIL
THAT SAID,

"HEY, I'M A FORMER
JIHADIST,

AND I'D LIKE TO TALK TO YOU
ABOUT YOUR IDEAS"?

YOU KNOW,
I WAS OPEN-MINDED TO IT

BECAUSE IT SEEMED LIKE
YOU WERE GENUINELY CURIOUS

ABOUT WHERE I WAS
COMING FROM.

I MEAN, IT'S...
RIGHT NOW,

WITH THE PERCEPTION
OF MY EVENT LAST YEAR,

SOME PEOPLE, LIKE,
THEY JUST HATE THE CONCEPTS

THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT,
AND I UNDERSTAND THAT.

WHITE PEOPLE AREN'T ALLOWED
TO HAVE ORGANIZATIONS.

WHAT I'VE TRIED TO DO
IS A CIVIL RIGHTS THING.

AND WHENEVER I ACT THE WAY
THAT I SEE OTHER RACES ACTING

WHEN THEY'RE CALLED
CIVIL RIGHTS,

PEOPLE ACCUSE ME
OF WHITE SUPREMACY.

AND FOR ME, IN MY HEAD,

I WAS THINKING
OF THE EXAMPLE OF PEOPLE

LIKE MARTIN LUTHER KING,
WHO LED MARCHES,

AND I WAS THINKING,
"THIS IS A CIVIL RIGHTS MARCH,"

AND I'M WALKING AT
THE FRONT OF THIS THING.

AND NOW WHERE THAT GETS
INTO THE EXTREMISM THING

IS THAT MOST PEOPLE
ARE FUNDAMENTALLY GOOD PEOPLE,

AND WHEN PEOPLE
SHAME THEM AND SAY,

"YOU'RE A BAD PERSON FOR TRYING
TO STAND UP FOR WHITE PEOPLE,"

THEY'LL EITHER GIVE UP
AND JUST SAY,

"THIS IS TOO MUCH.
I'M NOT GONNA RISK MY FAMILY,

MY JOB, MY FUTURE
TO DEAL WITH THIS."

SO THE PEOPLE WHO CONTINUE ON
TEND TO BE,

LIKE, REALLY EXTREME
IN THEIR THINKING.

AROUND THE TWO MONTHS
AFTER CHARLOTTESVILLE RALLY,

HE ANNOUNCED THAT
IT WAS MORE STRATEGIC

TO HAVE WHAT HE CALLED
A WHITE CIVIL RIGHTS PLATFORM.

HE, IN HIS MIND, COGNITIVELY,

BELIEVES THAT HE HAS
DISTINGUISHED HIMSELF

AND SEPARATED HIMSELF
FROM THE CONNECTION

TO FURTHER LEVELS
OF EXTREMISM AND COMMITMENT.

SINCE TWO MONTHS,
WHEN WE FIRST MET,

THERE'S BEEN
A LOT OF ACTIVITY.

YOU'RE THREE DAYS AWAY
FROM THE...

I GUESS WE COULD CALL IT
THE ANNIVERSARY

OF THE UNITE THE RIGHT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKE TO CALL IT
UNITE THE RIGHT RALLY 2.

FROM CHARLOTTESVILLE
UNTIL NOW,

THE PLATFORM HAS CHANGED
SOMEWHAT.

YOU HAVE RE-BRANDED,
ESSENTIALLY,

AND ARE NOW CALLING FOR
A WHITE CIVIL RIGHTS PLATFORM,

WHICH IS QUITE DIFFERENT
THAN LAST YEAR.

AND I SEE THAT THERE'S BEEN
SORT OF CONFLICT WITH NEO-NAZIS,

TO THE POINT WHERE
YOU'VE ACTUALLY TOLD THEM

THEY'RE NOT WELCOME
AT YOUR RALLY,

WHICH I THINK IS
WONDERFUL.

I THINK, AT THE END OF THE DAY,

IT'S NOT WORTH
GIVING UP ON JASON.

HE'S AT AN EARLY STAGE

OF APPROPRIATENESS
FOR INTERVENTION,

AND IT IS NECESSARY AND
MORE BENEFICIAL, I BELIEVE,

FROM THE PHILOSOPHY
THAT WE APPROACH

COMBATING
VIOLENT EXTREMISM FROM,

TO PROMOTE ENGAGEMENT, RATHER
THAN TO SHUN AND TO DIVIDE.

VIRGINIA'S GOVERNOR
HAS DECLARED A STATE OF EMERGENCY

AS CHARLOTTESVILLE MARKS
ONE YEAR

SINCE THE DEADLY
WHITE SUPREMACIST RALLY THERE.

ONE YEAR AFTER CHARLOTTESVILLE,

A VERY DIFFERENT SCENE HERE
IN THE NATION'S CAPITAL.

MY NAME IS JASON KESSLER.

I ORGANIZED LAST YEAR'S
UNITE THE RIGHT RALLY,

AND I ORGANIZED
THIS YEAR'S RALLY.

A HANDFUL OF WHITE NATIONALISTS,

JUST TWO DOZEN, GATHERED
WITHIN SIGHT OF THE WHITE HOUSE.

LEGIONS OF
COUNTERPROTESTERS SWARMED THE CITY.

LOVE, NOT HATE!

LOVE, NOT HATE!

LOVE, NOT HATE!

WE CAN POINT THE CAMERAS
AT THESE RALLIES

AND MAKE JOKES ABOUT KESSLER
AND HIS INABILITY

TO GET ANY KIND OF CROWD NOW
EXCEPT COUNTERPROTESTERS.

BLACK LIVES MATTER!

BUT HERE'S THE THING --

9% OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC SAY
THAT NAZI VIEWS ARE ACCEPTABLE.

THERE'S A MOVEMENT THAT'S
A LITTLE BIT MORE SHROUDED,

THAT SAYS, "WE JUST
DON'T WANT CULTURAL GENOCIDE.

WE DON'T WANT
THE CHANGE OF TRADITIONS."

THEY USE THAT AS THE TRAPPINGS
TO GET FOLKS IN.

THE NEFARIOUS THING IS THAT
WE'RE LOOKING

AT THE SHINIEST, LOUDEST
OBJECTS...

...WITHOUT REALIZING WE'RE
SEEING A POLITICAL DE-EVOLUTION

THAT EXPLOITS FEAR.

IT'S NOT JUST IN
THE UNITED STATES.

THIS NATIONALISM IS NOW
AN INTERNATIONAL MOVEMENT.

CLOSE THE DUTCH BORDERS

FOR IMMIGRANTS
FROM ISLAMIC COUNTRIES.

DEEP POLARIZATION, DIVISION --

HOW DO WE DEAL WITH THIS
IN SOCIETY?

I THINK WE'RE FACING
A PERFECT STORM.

THE KIND OF PEACE
AND SOCIAL HARMONY

THAT WE HAVE BEEN SO LUCKY
TO LIVE IN

IN SO MANY
OF OUR WESTERN COUNTRIES

IS PRECARIOUS.

EACH OF THESE GROUPS
HAS A VERY CLEAR STRATEGY

TO ENGAGE THOSE THAT AREN'T
YET THEIR HARD-CORE BASE,

AND THEN ALSO TO UNDERMINE
THOSE THAT OPPOSE THEM.

AND THEY HAVE TOOLS
AT THEIR DISPOSAL

THAT ENABLES THEM TO REACH
AUDIENCES AROUND THE WORLD

IN NANOSECONDS.

BUT WE HAVE THOSE TOOLS, TOO.

WE NEED BUSINESSES INVOLVED,
CITIES INVOLVED, ORGANIZATIONS.

WE NEED CREDIBLE VOICES.
WE NEED INFLUENCES.

WE NEED TO HAVE A WHOLE-SOCIETY
RESPONSE TO THIS.

AND I BELIEVE WE CAN
TURN THE TIDE.

BUT WE NEED TO DO IT.

AT THE BEGINNING,
THERE WAS ONE OVEN.

IT BURNED ABOUT FIVE, SIX
CORPSES PER ONE HOUR.

BUT IT WAS NOT ENOUGH
FOR THE CAMP.

WE ALL HAVE
ELEMENTS OF HATRED

THAT ARE POTENTIALLY
VERY STRONG IN US.

NOBODY COULD SAY EXACTLY
WHAT HE WAS GOING TO SAY.

THERE WERE SO MANY MOMENTS
THAT WE THOUGHT THAT,

"IT'S ALL OVER."

WE KNEW THAT IT WAS JUST
A MATTER OF TIME.