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1
00:00:17,038 --> 00:00:20,207
Debbie was
an exceptional daughter.
2
00:00:21,876 --> 00:00:24,211
She was kind.
3
00:00:24,295 --> 00:00:25,921
She was friendly.
4
00:00:27,006 --> 00:00:29,842
She was very helpful to anybody.
5
00:00:30,968 --> 00:00:32,178
And...
6
00:00:33,554 --> 00:00:35,139
Except around the house.
7
00:00:37,892 --> 00:00:41,771
This is Deborah
when she graduated from high school.
8
00:00:46,567 --> 00:00:50,112
Debbie was 18 when she got married.
9
00:00:53,449 --> 00:00:55,076
I was eight years old.
10
00:00:55,659 --> 00:00:58,537
I was a flower girl in her wedding.
11
00:00:59,538 --> 00:01:01,874
I was so nervous I was going to mess up.
12
00:01:03,334 --> 00:01:05,336
And I wanted to do it so right for her.
13
00:01:06,670 --> 00:01:09,090
The last time I saw Debbie...
14
00:01:11,258 --> 00:01:12,259
I'm sorry.
15
00:01:13,761 --> 00:01:15,805
That's a terrible day.
16
00:01:19,058 --> 00:01:19,892
Was...
17
00:01:21,644 --> 00:01:24,480
her dad's birthday.
18
00:01:25,648 --> 00:01:29,401
And we all went out to have dinner.
19
00:01:33,114 --> 00:01:34,156
We ate,
20
00:01:34,573 --> 00:01:37,910
and then we took her home
to her house,
21
00:01:38,661 --> 00:01:40,079
approximately 8:30.
22
00:01:42,665 --> 00:01:44,750
I was supposed to stay the night
with her.
23
00:01:45,876 --> 00:01:46,794
And, um...
24
00:01:50,297 --> 00:01:51,632
for whatever reason, Mother--
25
00:01:51,715 --> 00:01:55,052
When we pulled into the driveway,
Mother had decided that I was not.
26
00:02:00,641 --> 00:02:03,811
I always felt like if I was there,
I could've made a difference.
27
00:02:10,609 --> 00:02:14,697
We got a phone call from Doug,
her husband.
28
00:02:16,824 --> 00:02:21,871
Told us to come to the house right away,
that Debbie was dead.
29
00:02:25,958 --> 00:02:28,335
It was horrible.
30
00:02:31,172 --> 00:02:34,300
I'll never forget that moment.
31
00:02:41,974 --> 00:02:44,518
No one could come up with anything
as far as...
32
00:02:44,602 --> 00:02:48,189
someone she had made mad
or crossed a path with.
33
00:02:50,191 --> 00:02:52,109
We never gave up hope
34
00:02:52,943 --> 00:02:53,777
that...
35
00:02:54,361 --> 00:02:56,280
her murderer would be caught.
36
00:02:58,741 --> 00:03:03,162
Nine years went by with no leads.
37
00:03:06,165 --> 00:03:09,001
We were getting pretty low.
38
00:03:12,504 --> 00:03:15,424
When we got the call from the police
39
00:03:16,759 --> 00:03:19,970
and they said they had a confession,
40
00:03:20,054 --> 00:03:21,680
we didn't know who,
41
00:03:23,015 --> 00:03:23,849
but...
42
00:03:24,850 --> 00:03:26,936
it didn't matter to us.
43
00:03:27,603 --> 00:03:30,147
We were just so happy.
44
00:03:30,231 --> 00:03:32,274
There's a lot of emotions with that.
45
00:03:33,234 --> 00:03:34,568
Getting that news...
46
00:03:35,319 --> 00:03:37,738
and thinking it's over.
47
00:03:41,033 --> 00:03:44,870
My parents immediately went
to hear this confession
48
00:03:44,954 --> 00:03:49,083
and get the details of this person
that had killed my sister.
49
00:03:51,794 --> 00:03:55,339
And that's where
nightmare number two began.
50
00:03:56,340 --> 00:03:58,467
Henry Lee Lucas came into our lives.
51
00:04:40,175 --> 00:04:42,720
Lucas says he killed
more than 150 women.
52
00:04:42,803 --> 00:04:45,764
170 murders
directly attributed to Lucas.
53
00:04:45,848 --> 00:04:47,558
189 in 24 states.
54
00:04:47,641 --> 00:04:50,894
Murdered at least 360 people,
including his mother.
55
00:04:50,978 --> 00:04:54,857
Henry Lee Lucas has confessed
to killing 600 people.
56
00:04:55,316 --> 00:04:58,402
My victims never knew
what was gonna happen.
57
00:04:58,485 --> 00:05:00,154
I've had shootings,
58
00:05:00,237 --> 00:05:02,656
strangulations, beatings.
59
00:05:02,740 --> 00:05:06,535
I participated in actual crucifixions.
60
00:05:07,244 --> 00:05:08,996
The last person he killed
61
00:05:09,079 --> 00:05:12,249
meant no more to him
than the last cigarette that he smoked.
62
00:05:12,333 --> 00:05:15,210
To me, it didn't matter. I mean,
I didn't have no feelings about killing.
63
00:05:15,878 --> 00:05:18,297
It's like you just drink
a drink of water, really.
64
00:05:18,380 --> 00:05:20,299
I mean, it didn't mean anything to me.
65
00:05:38,025 --> 00:05:40,402
Henry was in Georgetown, Texas.
66
00:05:40,736 --> 00:05:44,990
Sheriff Jim Boutwell
was in charge of the jail.
67
00:05:46,033 --> 00:05:49,661
Boutwell told me
I could have total access.
68
00:05:50,788 --> 00:05:53,332
And I did for probably six months.
69
00:05:55,250 --> 00:05:58,504
It just gave me access
that nobody else had.
70
00:05:59,338 --> 00:06:01,673
They didn't trust too many reporters.
71
00:06:02,257 --> 00:06:03,675
And they trusted me.
72
00:06:04,426 --> 00:06:05,677
Hi.
-Hi.
73
00:06:09,515 --> 00:06:10,974
When I'd go in there,
74
00:06:12,142 --> 00:06:14,728
they would often let him walk free,
75
00:06:15,646 --> 00:06:17,398
and he wasn't handcuffed.
76
00:06:18,399 --> 00:06:20,150
You got the handcuffs?
77
00:06:23,195 --> 00:06:24,947
Let's talk
about Jim Boutwell.
78
00:06:25,030 --> 00:06:26,365
He's an unusual man.
79
00:06:26,448 --> 00:06:29,535
What, What kind of relationship
do you have with him?
80
00:06:30,577 --> 00:06:33,122
I look at him as a friend,
not as a sheriff.
81
00:06:35,165 --> 00:06:37,209
He's always treated me good,
82
00:06:37,292 --> 00:06:40,963
and he's, went out of his way
to do things for me that...
83
00:06:41,547 --> 00:06:43,674
normally, he wouldn't do
for other prisoners.
84
00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,971
Boutwell and Lucas
did have an unusual relationship.
85
00:06:50,597 --> 00:06:53,934
Henry told me more than once,
"Well, he just seems like my daddy."
86
00:06:54,017 --> 00:06:56,728
Of course, Boutwell did everything
in the world
87
00:06:57,271 --> 00:06:58,230
for Henry.
88
00:06:58,647 --> 00:07:00,774
Henry, we...
We'll go get some lunch.
89
00:07:00,858 --> 00:07:02,443
Is there anything we can bring you?
90
00:07:02,860 --> 00:07:04,194
Not unless you run into...
91
00:07:04,653 --> 00:07:08,824
some Sonic out there somewhere
and see a milkshake sitting around.
92
00:07:09,366 --> 00:07:11,118
I'll figure it out.
93
00:07:11,702 --> 00:07:15,122
Every day,
he brought him a strawberry milkshake.
94
00:07:16,373 --> 00:07:19,293
He praised him to everyone.
95
00:07:19,376 --> 00:07:20,878
He's doing something now,
96
00:07:20,961 --> 00:07:25,799
which is a very valuable service
to, law enforcement and to mankind.
97
00:07:26,508 --> 00:07:29,136
You can't help but, give him credit
98
00:07:29,553 --> 00:07:33,724
for the fact that he knows
he doesn't have to clear up these cases,
99
00:07:33,807 --> 00:07:35,684
he knows he doesn't have to talk...
100
00:07:37,060 --> 00:07:38,562
and-- and yet,
101
00:07:38,645 --> 00:07:40,522
he-- he does want to get it straight.
102
00:07:42,149 --> 00:07:43,984
Henry never lived so good.
103
00:07:44,526 --> 00:07:45,652
He ate good,
104
00:07:46,111 --> 00:07:47,070
he drank good,
105
00:07:47,154 --> 00:07:50,032
he had cigarettes,
more than he could smoke.
106
00:07:52,242 --> 00:07:54,703
My theory
during my entire career
107
00:07:54,786 --> 00:07:56,121
has been, "treat people
108
00:07:56,955 --> 00:07:59,875
the way you'd want to be treated
in the same circumstances."
109
00:08:01,293 --> 00:08:03,170
We'd bring him cigarettes,
110
00:08:03,253 --> 00:08:07,007
or have the interviewing officers
bring him cigarettes.
111
00:08:07,090 --> 00:08:09,176
This is the kind of cigarettes
you like.
112
00:08:09,551 --> 00:08:12,554
If I was a smoker,
that's the way I'd wanna be treated.
113
00:08:13,931 --> 00:08:16,683
Boutwell and the Texas Rangers
had set up
114
00:08:17,100 --> 00:08:18,477
a task force
115
00:08:18,936 --> 00:08:23,732
to clear all these hundreds of murders
that he was claiming.
116
00:08:24,691 --> 00:08:27,819
It was like Henry was a member
of the task force.
117
00:08:28,362 --> 00:08:32,032
He often would be on the phone,
talking to officers
118
00:08:32,115 --> 00:08:35,953
all over the country,
helping to solve their cases.
119
00:08:36,495 --> 00:08:37,955
It was pretty bizarre.
120
00:08:38,038 --> 00:08:41,124
I don't know whether I can find it
on a map or not. I have to look.
121
00:08:43,252 --> 00:08:47,005
We had a map in the inner office,
of the United States,
122
00:08:47,798 --> 00:08:51,260
and whenever an officer would determine
123
00:08:51,343 --> 00:08:54,137
that Lucas was involved in the case,
124
00:08:54,221 --> 00:08:57,683
we would put a pin at that location.
125
00:09:00,018 --> 00:09:01,979
Policemen came
from all over the country,
126
00:09:02,062 --> 00:09:03,772
and they wanted to solve cases.
127
00:09:03,855 --> 00:09:06,692
How long did you talk to him?
-About an hour and a half.
128
00:09:06,775 --> 00:09:09,278
How close do you think
you are to making an arrest
129
00:09:09,361 --> 00:09:11,822
or having a charge
in either one of these cases?
130
00:09:12,406 --> 00:09:13,282
Quite close.
131
00:09:13,907 --> 00:09:15,409
Both or just one?
132
00:09:15,826 --> 00:09:17,536
We're not allowed to discuss that.
133
00:09:17,953 --> 00:09:20,414
This was the biggest thing
that had ever happened
134
00:09:20,497 --> 00:09:22,082
to a lot of these cops.
135
00:09:22,583 --> 00:09:27,254
The actual ability to come,
and talk, and smoke,
136
00:09:27,337 --> 00:09:32,092
and maybe have a bite
with the biggest killer in the world.
137
00:09:32,509 --> 00:09:35,095
I want to thank you,
for your time.
138
00:09:35,178 --> 00:09:38,307
I want to thank you for myself,
for the Pennsylvania State Police.
139
00:09:38,390 --> 00:09:41,560
These cops would come,
and they would clear a case,
140
00:09:41,643 --> 00:09:44,271
and they'd shake hands with him
and pat him on the back.
141
00:09:44,354 --> 00:09:46,356
Where were we?
Henry, what were you saying?
142
00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,067
Well, I guess
where I, killed that girl
143
00:09:49,151 --> 00:09:51,486
up on the... on the marker on 70.
144
00:09:52,070 --> 00:09:55,032
He'd never felt so important
in his life.
145
00:09:55,365 --> 00:09:58,577
Suddenly everyone wanted to talk
to Henry Lucas.
146
00:09:58,660 --> 00:10:00,996
Do you think it's possible
that...
147
00:10:01,413 --> 00:10:03,040
you committed that homicide?
148
00:10:03,665 --> 00:10:06,710
And whenever officers would come in
and talk to Lucas,
149
00:10:06,793 --> 00:10:10,589
the instructions I'd give 'em,
"You believe him if you can confirm it.
150
00:10:10,839 --> 00:10:13,759
If he likes you,
he will do everything he can
151
00:10:13,842 --> 00:10:16,386
to try to take responsibility
for your homicide.
152
00:10:16,637 --> 00:10:18,930
But if you cannot confirm it,
153
00:10:19,306 --> 00:10:20,223
um...
154
00:10:20,307 --> 00:10:21,224
don't believe him."
155
00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,227
I've got 'em scattered
all over the country though...
156
00:10:24,311 --> 00:10:27,564
He liked to impress people
with what he'd done.
157
00:10:27,981 --> 00:10:31,610
I've tried to show law enforcement,
I've tried to teach 'em.
158
00:10:31,693 --> 00:10:33,904
Instead of trying to hide
what he had done,
159
00:10:33,987 --> 00:10:36,657
he would exaggerate what he had done.
160
00:10:36,740 --> 00:10:38,492
Everything except poison.
161
00:10:38,575 --> 00:10:39,826
Everything?
162
00:10:40,827 --> 00:10:43,789
Sometimes I would go down
and I would run into
163
00:10:44,331 --> 00:10:47,542
people from two or three
police departments at the same time.
164
00:10:48,126 --> 00:10:50,962
And they all had an hour or two
or whatever.
165
00:10:51,380 --> 00:10:53,340
This is the dining room area.
166
00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:55,967
And the living room.
167
00:10:57,636 --> 00:10:59,638
You can't just walk in
and say, "Okay, Henry.
168
00:11:00,222 --> 00:11:03,684
You've killed 300 people
all across the United States.
169
00:11:04,059 --> 00:11:07,813
Tell me the one I'm thinking of now."
I mean, you got to give him something.
170
00:11:07,896 --> 00:11:11,233
See if that might mean anything to you.
171
00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:14,736
He seemed to respond better
with photos of the victim.
172
00:11:15,529 --> 00:11:18,865
This woman is the one
that I picked up from this car.
173
00:11:20,409 --> 00:11:24,454
I walked in the room one time
to talk to one of the Rangers,
174
00:11:25,747 --> 00:11:27,749
and he was looking through the books
175
00:11:28,250 --> 00:11:32,337
the police department sent in
to the task force.
176
00:11:33,255 --> 00:11:35,841
They'd have crime scene photos.
177
00:11:36,591 --> 00:11:38,760
Well, the next day, here came the police.
178
00:11:39,094 --> 00:11:41,930
He knew what highway they were on,
179
00:11:42,180 --> 00:11:43,974
he knew what the house looked like.
180
00:11:44,057 --> 00:11:46,351
Put your initials...
181
00:11:46,435 --> 00:11:48,812
Sometimes I'd be there
for several hours
182
00:11:48,895 --> 00:11:51,523
and they'd clear six cases, murder cases.
183
00:11:51,606 --> 00:11:54,276
Sign your name to it,
however you want to do it.
184
00:11:55,569 --> 00:11:58,697
Sheriff Boutwell said,
"We solved six more."
185
00:11:59,239 --> 00:12:01,324
And Bob Prince says,
186
00:12:01,908 --> 00:12:06,455
"For every case,
I promised Henry a milkshake.
187
00:12:06,955 --> 00:12:09,332
So that is six milkshakes.
188
00:12:09,416 --> 00:12:11,460
So you want them once a day?"
189
00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,005
And Henry says,
"Yeah, that sounds good to me,
190
00:12:15,088 --> 00:12:16,631
and make it strawberry."
191
00:12:17,132 --> 00:12:20,051
And I thought, "Six cases...
192
00:12:20,510 --> 00:12:22,512
Six murder cases."
193
00:12:24,931 --> 00:12:29,311
Clemmie was convinced that her role
194
00:12:29,561 --> 00:12:33,440
was to offer spiritual guidance
to Henry, and also...
195
00:12:34,065 --> 00:12:35,901
emotional support,
196
00:12:35,984 --> 00:12:37,986
because, according to her,
197
00:12:38,069 --> 00:12:40,197
he would get very emotional
after the interviews
198
00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,032
and was returned to the jail cell.
199
00:12:43,909 --> 00:12:47,829
He was looking to please Clemmie
at every juncture.
200
00:12:48,246 --> 00:12:51,416
He had never had a woman friend
like this.
201
00:12:52,501 --> 00:12:54,211
He loved her presence.
202
00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:56,963
If it wasn't for her,
I'll be honest with you,
203
00:12:57,047 --> 00:12:58,715
I don't think I could go through
204
00:12:59,257 --> 00:13:02,511
the constant reliving each case and stuff.
205
00:13:02,594 --> 00:13:03,428
Yeah.
206
00:13:04,346 --> 00:13:07,307
Very often, he would get
what was called "moody."
207
00:13:07,891 --> 00:13:10,310
Sheriff Boutwell knew that Henry
208
00:13:10,936 --> 00:13:12,979
was more inclined to cooperate
209
00:13:13,355 --> 00:13:16,525
if Clemmie believed
it was the right thing to do,
210
00:13:16,608 --> 00:13:19,653
and very often,
they would convince Clemmie
211
00:13:19,736 --> 00:13:21,488
that they needed her help.
212
00:13:22,906 --> 00:13:27,035
Sheriff Boutwell said,
"We have families waiting
213
00:13:27,536 --> 00:13:31,706
for him to come and see
if these are his people.
214
00:13:31,790 --> 00:13:33,583
These poor families."
215
00:13:34,167 --> 00:13:37,587
It was like, "You get him there,
Sister Clemmie,
216
00:13:37,671 --> 00:13:39,506
and I can take care of the rest."
217
00:13:45,762 --> 00:13:47,389
They were clearing cases,
218
00:13:47,806 --> 00:13:48,807
and, at that point,
219
00:13:48,890 --> 00:13:52,060
Henry was already facing
several life sentences.
220
00:13:52,894 --> 00:13:56,064
But with the Orange Socks case coming up,
221
00:13:56,940 --> 00:13:58,608
the ball game had changed.
222
00:14:00,652 --> 00:14:03,071
Now he faced the death penalty.
223
00:14:05,574 --> 00:14:07,492
Dubbed
the Orange Socks case,
224
00:14:07,576 --> 00:14:11,955
the body of a woman was found dumped
in a culvert north of Georgetown.
225
00:14:12,038 --> 00:14:14,249
She came to be called Orange Socks
226
00:14:14,332 --> 00:14:17,335
because that was
the only shred of identity Lucas left her.
227
00:14:18,461 --> 00:14:23,633
It was an unsolved murder case
of a woman killed on I-35.
228
00:14:25,343 --> 00:14:27,804
Sheriff Jim Boutwell
was assigned the case.
229
00:14:27,888 --> 00:14:29,681
I know that he had made a commitment
230
00:14:29,764 --> 00:14:31,808
that he was going to do
everything he could
231
00:14:31,892 --> 00:14:35,604
to find the killer
of the Orange Socks victim.
232
00:14:35,687 --> 00:14:37,230
Is this the girl...
233
00:14:37,606 --> 00:14:38,899
It's the same girl.
234
00:14:38,982 --> 00:14:40,817
...that you picked up?
-Same one.
235
00:14:40,901 --> 00:14:41,776
Okay.
236
00:14:42,319 --> 00:14:45,864
Sheriff Jim Boutwell
says Lucas confessed to the murder
237
00:14:45,947 --> 00:14:49,200
and described details
only the killer could know.
238
00:14:49,284 --> 00:14:50,952
He looked at the picture
239
00:14:51,202 --> 00:14:53,371
and after a moment, he told me...
240
00:14:53,705 --> 00:14:57,584
"That girl was a hitchhiker
that I picked up near Oklahoma City."
241
00:14:58,376 --> 00:15:00,629
And he said,
"She would've been strangled."
242
00:15:01,338 --> 00:15:03,590
After I pulled over,
why, I grabbed her by the neck
243
00:15:03,673 --> 00:15:05,717
and choked her until she died.
244
00:15:07,260 --> 00:15:08,970
I had sex with her again.
245
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:11,848
I went down here.
246
00:15:13,433 --> 00:15:14,726
Dropped her right over there.
247
00:15:14,809 --> 00:15:16,227
She landed on her side.
248
00:15:16,603 --> 00:15:18,605
Just socks, no clothing.
249
00:15:24,069 --> 00:15:26,029
I didn't kill the girl
in the orange socks.
250
00:15:26,112 --> 00:15:27,989
I didn't have anything to do with it.
251
00:15:28,073 --> 00:15:30,575
I did not do it,
and I'll prove it if you want to.
252
00:15:32,744 --> 00:15:34,371
When there was nobody around,
253
00:15:34,454 --> 00:15:37,415
Henry would deny to me
the Orange Socks case.
254
00:15:38,208 --> 00:15:40,752
He was telling me he was at work
in Florida.
255
00:15:42,212 --> 00:15:44,422
What about Orange Socks?
Did you do that one?
256
00:15:45,215 --> 00:15:46,549
Let's put it this way--
257
00:15:46,633 --> 00:15:48,551
They're not gonna get mad
if you tell them.
258
00:15:48,635 --> 00:15:50,971
-You did it.
-I know. It's done been settled, you know,
259
00:15:51,054 --> 00:15:52,681
so that's... We'll leave it as what it is.
260
00:15:52,764 --> 00:15:54,182
Okay.
261
00:16:00,855 --> 00:16:03,650
I knew I had to check
what Henry was telling me.
262
00:16:04,275 --> 00:16:08,488
Really had to find out
if it was a legitimate story or not.
263
00:16:15,870 --> 00:16:19,416
I went to Jacksonville where Lucas worked.
264
00:16:21,793 --> 00:16:26,047
I would never have figured that Henry
would, you know, end up being a killer,
265
00:16:26,131 --> 00:16:27,924
because he was, like I said,
a normal person.
266
00:16:28,008 --> 00:16:30,552
He was quiet
and the whole family loved him.
267
00:16:30,635 --> 00:16:32,846
You know, we got along great.
They was, um...
268
00:16:33,555 --> 00:16:35,265
just a working-- a hard-working family.
269
00:16:35,348 --> 00:16:38,393
You don't really believe that he had
killed all those many people, do you?
270
00:16:38,476 --> 00:16:40,395
Not really. I don't.
271
00:16:40,895 --> 00:16:42,397
He was a good boy.
272
00:16:44,566 --> 00:16:47,485
I found out
that he had a tremendous memory.
273
00:16:48,278 --> 00:16:50,363
He told me where he sold scrap.
274
00:16:50,613 --> 00:16:52,574
He told me where he bought insurance.
275
00:16:52,657 --> 00:16:55,326
He told me
where he was in jail overnight.
276
00:16:56,119 --> 00:16:57,912
His stories checked out.
277
00:16:59,664 --> 00:17:00,957
I was finding...
278
00:17:01,666 --> 00:17:02,917
real evidence.
279
00:17:03,001 --> 00:17:05,086
You gotta call them,
then I can get the exact time.
280
00:17:05,170 --> 00:17:08,590
I found out
where Lucas had cashed a check
281
00:17:09,174 --> 00:17:12,218
the night before Orange Socks was killed.
282
00:17:12,802 --> 00:17:16,973
And he come to cash the check, they--
you know, every-- every week.
283
00:17:18,016 --> 00:17:20,435
I also found work records that...
284
00:17:21,019 --> 00:17:22,937
showed that he was on the job
285
00:17:23,354 --> 00:17:26,316
just hours before Orange Socks was killed,
286
00:17:26,649 --> 00:17:28,651
1,100 miles away.
287
00:17:29,527 --> 00:17:34,032
Why would he travel 1,100 miles
to kill a person he didn't know?
288
00:17:34,574 --> 00:17:36,284
I mean, it was just ludicrous.
289
00:17:38,828 --> 00:17:40,872
When I got back to Georgetown,
290
00:17:41,456 --> 00:17:45,668
I told Boutwell, and Boutwell
was always friendly to me
291
00:17:45,752 --> 00:17:47,087
up to that point, and...
292
00:17:47,837 --> 00:17:49,297
he said, "I know he did it.
293
00:17:49,380 --> 00:17:51,216
He's told me he did it."
294
00:17:51,299 --> 00:17:54,135
I've seen Lucas mention cases himself
295
00:17:54,219 --> 00:17:56,054
that he had never been asked about,
296
00:17:56,721 --> 00:17:58,765
and describe them in great detail,
297
00:17:59,349 --> 00:18:02,352
and direct the officers
to the scene of the crimes
298
00:18:02,435 --> 00:18:06,648
and tell them in advance what to expect
over the next rise in the hill.
299
00:18:08,108 --> 00:18:11,402
Lawmen across the country
are keeping a close eye on this case,
300
00:18:11,486 --> 00:18:15,532
some even waiting to file murder charges
until this trial is complete
301
00:18:15,615 --> 00:18:19,119
and a jury decides
whether Lucas will die for his crimes.
302
00:18:20,453 --> 00:18:22,539
I knew that Henry was a killer,
303
00:18:22,872 --> 00:18:25,125
and I knew that he was a liar,
304
00:18:25,708 --> 00:18:28,670
but I didn't think he should get
the death penalty on a case
305
00:18:28,753 --> 00:18:31,589
he had absolutely nothing to do with.
306
00:18:32,006 --> 00:18:34,092
So I went to Henry's attorneys.
307
00:18:34,175 --> 00:18:35,593
...that is that we have no...
308
00:18:35,677 --> 00:18:38,513
Don and I were now co-counsel
on the Lucas case.
309
00:18:39,430 --> 00:18:41,474
When Henry told us that he had not
310
00:18:42,100 --> 00:18:43,476
been in Texas,
311
00:18:44,435 --> 00:18:47,063
we were like,
"Well, why are you confessing to this?"
312
00:18:48,064 --> 00:18:50,733
And his... his statement...
313
00:18:50,817 --> 00:18:53,236
which he told us
before the beginning of the trial,
314
00:18:53,319 --> 00:18:55,864
was that he was trying
to commit legal suicide.
315
00:18:57,699 --> 00:19:00,660
And he felt a great deal of remorse
for having killed Becky.
316
00:19:01,870 --> 00:19:04,873
Becky was the only person
that had ever treated him
317
00:19:04,956 --> 00:19:08,835
with any kind of love, or affection,
or respect.
318
00:19:11,629 --> 00:19:13,715
He felt so bad he wanted to die,
319
00:19:14,090 --> 00:19:16,134
but if he took his own life,
320
00:19:16,509 --> 00:19:19,345
he could not get into heaven
where Becky was.
321
00:19:19,762 --> 00:19:23,558
And he came up with this idea that
"I'll have the state kill me,
322
00:19:24,475 --> 00:19:28,104
and then, that way,
I will be in heaven with Becky."
323
00:19:29,731 --> 00:19:30,607
And...
324
00:19:31,316 --> 00:19:34,485
I'd never studied anything like that
in law school,
325
00:19:34,569 --> 00:19:36,571
never heard of the concept
of legal suicide.
326
00:19:36,654 --> 00:19:39,866
We certainly did not, plead it
to the court.
327
00:19:41,367 --> 00:19:43,036
After I pulled over, why...
328
00:19:43,286 --> 00:19:45,788
Henry, I'm going to tell you
one more time...
329
00:19:46,164 --> 00:19:51,502
you're talking yourself
into a very possible death penalty case.
330
00:19:51,753 --> 00:19:54,964
I have to go with whatever goes.
I mean, I can't help it.
331
00:19:55,215 --> 00:19:57,508
I'm asking you
not to make any further statements,
332
00:19:57,592 --> 00:19:58,927
to terminate this interview.
333
00:19:59,010 --> 00:20:00,094
Well...
334
00:20:00,178 --> 00:20:04,140
Generally, anyone who is charged
with a crime wants to help their lawyer
335
00:20:04,224 --> 00:20:05,225
get them out.
336
00:20:05,892 --> 00:20:07,727
It was maddening trying to...
337
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,607
represent somebody
who was actually working against you
338
00:20:13,566 --> 00:20:15,235
in a death penalty case.
339
00:20:16,277 --> 00:20:19,155
There were so many times that...
340
00:20:19,739 --> 00:20:21,157
Mr. Higginbotham and I
341
00:20:21,950 --> 00:20:23,826
walked out of the jail just...
342
00:20:24,535 --> 00:20:26,746
"What's going on?"
343
00:20:26,829 --> 00:20:29,332
Would you like
the death penalty if you are convicted?
344
00:20:29,415 --> 00:20:30,291
I'm gonna get it.
345
00:20:30,792 --> 00:20:32,752
He said--
He said he's gonna get it?
346
00:20:33,002 --> 00:20:37,465
I slipped away at the start
of the second week of... of jury selection
347
00:20:37,548 --> 00:20:39,842
and flew over to Jacksonville
348
00:20:40,134 --> 00:20:42,720
and found four witnesses.
349
00:20:44,555 --> 00:20:45,682
At the jail,
350
00:20:46,182 --> 00:20:50,019
I saw Henry's traveling companion,
Ottis Toole.
351
00:20:51,396 --> 00:20:54,315
The thing that I remember the most
was that he was wearing
352
00:20:54,399 --> 00:20:56,818
a T-shirt with a cartoon.
353
00:20:58,903 --> 00:20:59,946
He was...
354
00:21:00,446 --> 00:21:03,324
as... as dumb as you get.
355
00:21:03,741 --> 00:21:06,160
I'm gonna show you photographs
356
00:21:06,536 --> 00:21:09,080
of... of the victim, of the body.
357
00:21:10,164 --> 00:21:11,958
Now, we've looked at these, have we not?
358
00:21:12,041 --> 00:21:16,129
Ottis had no clue
of what I was talking about
359
00:21:16,546 --> 00:21:19,966
other than that I had been with Henry,
I was one of Henry's lawyers,
360
00:21:20,049 --> 00:21:22,218
and-- and he wanted to help Henry.
361
00:21:25,305 --> 00:21:27,265
Henry and Ottis Toole
362
00:21:28,141 --> 00:21:30,935
played off of each other and...
363
00:21:31,561 --> 00:21:33,271
tried to impress each other.
364
00:21:34,897 --> 00:21:37,150
When I'd ask him any question,
he'd always say,
365
00:21:37,233 --> 00:21:39,986
"What does... What does Henry say?
What did Henry say?"
366
00:21:40,069 --> 00:21:42,071
He wanted to match whatever Henry said.
367
00:21:42,155 --> 00:21:44,365
We're all going through this
and I've advised--
368
00:21:44,449 --> 00:21:45,700
What all does he say?
369
00:21:45,783 --> 00:21:47,410
Pardon?
-He ain't gonna go in there.
370
00:21:47,493 --> 00:21:50,246
No, no. I'd-- I'd like to know
what you've got to say.
371
00:21:50,330 --> 00:21:52,248
And I want to know what he got to say.
372
00:21:55,501 --> 00:21:58,504
When I went to see him,
he said, "Henry.
373
00:21:58,588 --> 00:22:00,757
I love Henry. And he just--
374
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,135
Whatever he says,
I'll just go... go along with."
375
00:22:05,136 --> 00:22:07,263
Wherever we go,
we'll still be together.
376
00:22:07,472 --> 00:22:08,389
Yeah.
377
00:22:08,473 --> 00:22:09,307
And...
378
00:22:10,391 --> 00:22:11,726
It's your decision.
379
00:22:11,809 --> 00:22:14,395
Sure will, 'cause I think
about you all the time.
380
00:22:14,479 --> 00:22:17,065
Well, I do too. I've got
your picture down here in my cell.
381
00:22:17,148 --> 00:22:18,649
Well, I got yours too.
382
00:22:20,193 --> 00:22:23,154
The conversations that I had
with Lucas and Ottis were...
383
00:22:23,905 --> 00:22:26,324
I mean, it was just fanciful.
384
00:22:26,407 --> 00:22:29,243
It was just exaggerated boasting.
385
00:22:29,327 --> 00:22:31,746
When they were together,
they'd just kind of feed each other.
386
00:22:34,374 --> 00:22:37,627
That time when I cooked
some of them people, what made me do that?
387
00:22:38,127 --> 00:22:41,047
Wouldn't that make me a cannibal,
doing things like that or what?
388
00:22:41,130 --> 00:22:42,715
No, you wasn't a cannibal.
389
00:22:42,799 --> 00:22:45,468
Like I say,
it was a force of the devil and...
390
00:22:45,551 --> 00:22:47,762
I would pour some of that blood
out of 'em.
391
00:22:47,845 --> 00:22:49,305
Well, I know that.
392
00:22:49,389 --> 00:22:51,307
See what the mess tastes like.
393
00:22:52,850 --> 00:22:55,853
Some of it tastes like real meat
when it's got barbecue sauce on it.
394
00:22:55,937 --> 00:22:57,855
Well, you know how that is.
395
00:22:58,356 --> 00:23:00,650
I talked to Lucas about
396
00:23:00,733 --> 00:23:03,736
why now Ottis
is making up stories about...
397
00:23:04,195 --> 00:23:06,697
barbecuing people and eating them and all.
398
00:23:07,365 --> 00:23:10,284
And he said,
"Well, it's because I got famous.
399
00:23:10,660 --> 00:23:11,953
He was jealous,
400
00:23:12,036 --> 00:23:15,289
and he wanted everybody to know
who he was too."
401
00:23:16,791 --> 00:23:19,085
How many people
did you kill, Henry?
402
00:23:19,168 --> 00:23:20,586
A hundred and fifty.
403
00:23:21,963 --> 00:23:22,964
By yourself?
404
00:23:23,423 --> 00:23:25,007
No, not by myself.
405
00:23:29,053 --> 00:23:31,806
I was with you
on some of them myself, wasn't I?
406
00:23:32,390 --> 00:23:34,517
If you want to admit to that, yes.
407
00:23:34,976 --> 00:23:37,019
Yeah.
-It's up to you. Whatever you--
408
00:23:37,103 --> 00:23:39,522
I don't care what you done.
I still care about you.
409
00:23:39,605 --> 00:23:40,648
That's the way it goes.
410
00:23:40,731 --> 00:23:42,942
Well, I know that. And...
411
00:23:44,527 --> 00:23:46,529
as long as we understand each other,
412
00:23:46,821 --> 00:23:49,073
as long as we know the truth
about each other...
413
00:23:49,157 --> 00:23:50,992
Yeah.
-And that's all I want.
414
00:24:05,798 --> 00:24:07,508
Let me walk for a bit.
415
00:24:16,225 --> 00:24:18,060
Today was the day
the testimony began
416
00:24:18,144 --> 00:24:20,688
in the trial of confessed killer
Henry Lee Lucas.
417
00:24:21,230 --> 00:24:24,025
He has never faced the death penalty
until now.
418
00:24:24,775 --> 00:24:27,153
Williamson County prosecutors
trying to show,
419
00:24:27,236 --> 00:24:28,779
mainly through his confessions,
420
00:24:28,863 --> 00:24:31,866
that Lucas did indeed kill
the unidentified nude hitchhiker
421
00:24:31,949 --> 00:24:34,619
found north of Georgetown, Halloween 1979.
422
00:24:35,411 --> 00:24:38,206
In a surprising turn,
Williamson County Sheriff Jim Boutwell
423
00:24:38,289 --> 00:24:41,209
is heard on the tapes supplying Lucas
with some of the key details
424
00:24:41,292 --> 00:24:43,085
of the murder Lucas is charged with.
425
00:24:43,169 --> 00:24:44,462
During cross examination,
426
00:24:44,545 --> 00:24:48,007
Boutwell said he just refreshed
Lucas' memory about the details.
427
00:24:49,884 --> 00:24:50,968
By that time,
428
00:24:51,385 --> 00:24:53,179
he was having second thoughts.
429
00:24:53,262 --> 00:24:55,097
Trying to pull himself out,
430
00:24:55,306 --> 00:24:56,516
not knowing how.
431
00:24:57,183 --> 00:24:58,935
And he was scared.
432
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,648
It appears the defense
may finally get the case tomorrow,
433
00:25:03,731 --> 00:25:06,901
and the speculation continues
whether Ottis Elwood Toole
434
00:25:06,984 --> 00:25:09,320
will be testifying
on behalf of the defense.
435
00:25:09,403 --> 00:25:11,572
Latest word we get is "no."
436
00:25:12,573 --> 00:25:15,868
Nobody in their right mind
would put that person on the witness stand
437
00:25:15,952 --> 00:25:18,412
to testify to try to help your case.
438
00:25:19,205 --> 00:25:21,040
Ottis did not help us at all.
439
00:25:22,291 --> 00:25:25,836
We had witnesses that we brought over
from Florida
440
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,422
who testified during the defense.
441
00:25:29,507 --> 00:25:32,552
Roofing company supervisor
Fred Ellis took the stand
442
00:25:32,635 --> 00:25:35,012
to back up records
dated the day the woman died.
443
00:25:35,471 --> 00:25:39,308
Defense lawyer Parker McCullough asked,
"Did Henry Lucas work that day?"
444
00:25:39,392 --> 00:25:41,143
"Yes. There's a check by his name."
445
00:25:41,561 --> 00:25:43,396
"How do you know?" "I put it there."
446
00:25:44,105 --> 00:25:47,316
"You recall seeing Henry Lucas
on this particular job?"
447
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,401
"Yes."
448
00:25:49,402 --> 00:25:51,821
The case for the defense
was built on two things:
449
00:25:51,904 --> 00:25:54,949
Lucas' alibi that he was working
in Florida at the time of the murder
450
00:25:55,032 --> 00:25:56,784
and that he was and is insane.
451
00:25:57,368 --> 00:26:01,080
But the prosecution used Lucas' own words
to refute both arguments.
452
00:26:01,163 --> 00:26:03,499
Lucas explained how he paid off
people in Florida
453
00:26:03,583 --> 00:26:05,668
to show him present at his roofing job.
454
00:26:06,210 --> 00:26:09,130
The psychiatrist
who examined Lucas said he's a sociopath,
455
00:26:09,213 --> 00:26:10,590
a person with no conscience,
456
00:26:10,673 --> 00:26:14,260
with deviant sexual disorders
including bestiality and necrophilia.
457
00:26:14,719 --> 00:26:16,804
But he falls in the normal range.
458
00:26:17,597 --> 00:26:19,682
After all the evidence
had been presented,
459
00:26:19,765 --> 00:26:23,185
the only person who was smiling
was the defendant, Henry Lee Lucas.
460
00:26:23,269 --> 00:26:26,814
The defense team, on the other hand,
seemed to have lost the air of confidence
461
00:26:26,897 --> 00:26:29,358
it had been exhibiting
for the past several days.
462
00:26:29,442 --> 00:26:31,902
We came to the conclusion
463
00:26:31,986 --> 00:26:35,990
that the only way we were gonna be able
to get Henry out of the death penalty
464
00:26:36,866 --> 00:26:38,492
was to have him testify,
465
00:26:38,576 --> 00:26:40,745
and I worked with him
for two or three hours
466
00:26:40,828 --> 00:26:44,874
in preparation of his testifying
the following morning.
467
00:26:45,583 --> 00:26:48,836
I told my attorneys
I didn't do the case.
468
00:26:48,919 --> 00:26:52,632
I turn around and tell the sheriff
that I did do the case.
469
00:26:53,007 --> 00:26:56,135
Then I turn around and give you
information about the work records.
470
00:26:56,218 --> 00:26:58,763
Then I turn around and tell them
the work records are no good.
471
00:26:59,221 --> 00:27:01,057
Then are the work records
good or no good?
472
00:27:01,140 --> 00:27:02,224
They're good.
473
00:27:02,642 --> 00:27:04,143
You gonna say that tomorrow?
474
00:27:04,226 --> 00:27:05,061
Yeah.
475
00:27:07,605 --> 00:27:09,482
I felt good when I left him.
476
00:27:09,815 --> 00:27:11,317
Got up early the next day.
477
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,904
I said, "Henry, are you ready to go?
Today's a big day."
478
00:27:15,863 --> 00:27:17,907
He said, "I'm not going to do it."
479
00:27:19,158 --> 00:27:20,034
I said...
480
00:27:21,035 --> 00:27:21,952
"Wait a minute.
481
00:27:23,204 --> 00:27:25,247
When I talked to you
less than 12 hours ago,
482
00:27:25,331 --> 00:27:26,957
you were prepared to testify."
483
00:27:27,875 --> 00:27:29,377
He said, "I just can't do it."
484
00:27:30,503 --> 00:27:32,171
Someone must have talked to him.
485
00:27:32,588 --> 00:27:34,757
Someone must have seen him
after I left the jail
486
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,678
or, before he was brought
into our conference room the next morning.
487
00:27:40,304 --> 00:27:41,806
I'm absolutely convinced
488
00:27:41,889 --> 00:27:46,102
that Henry refused to take
the witness stand in his defense
489
00:27:46,185 --> 00:27:48,646
because he did not want to go
against the sheriff.
490
00:27:52,191 --> 00:27:53,776
And then we rested our case.
491
00:27:54,235 --> 00:27:55,069
That was it.
492
00:27:55,820 --> 00:27:58,406
That was the end of the defense
for Henry Lee Lucas.
493
00:27:59,573 --> 00:28:02,034
After hearing the verdict
from the San Angelo jury,
494
00:28:02,118 --> 00:28:05,162
convicted murderer Henry Lee Lucas
left the courthouse smiling
495
00:28:05,246 --> 00:28:07,123
about the capital murder conviction.
496
00:28:07,206 --> 00:28:09,333
Do you feel like
it's, suicide for you?
497
00:28:09,667 --> 00:28:11,877
It is suicide,
because I didn't do the crime.
498
00:28:13,003 --> 00:28:15,965
Why are you happy?
-Because I got what I wanted.
499
00:28:18,509 --> 00:28:20,469
He got exactly what he wanted.
500
00:28:22,221 --> 00:28:25,391
And, I guess I should say
I'm happy for him.
501
00:28:27,017 --> 00:28:27,852
But...
502
00:28:28,269 --> 00:28:30,438
I'm going to do everything that I can,
503
00:28:30,521 --> 00:28:34,108
and we tried to do everything
that we could to prevent that.
504
00:28:35,985 --> 00:28:38,863
Personally, I had
a great sense of disappointment
505
00:28:39,196 --> 00:28:41,449
that I had been...
506
00:28:44,118 --> 00:28:46,036
a participant in a miscarriage.
507
00:28:47,037 --> 00:28:48,706
I felt so close to it
508
00:28:48,956 --> 00:28:50,791
and felt really stung
509
00:28:51,208 --> 00:28:53,544
by the harshness of the verdict...
510
00:28:54,670 --> 00:28:56,046
and the realization
511
00:28:56,130 --> 00:29:01,051
that this man had talked his way
into a death penalty case
512
00:29:01,135 --> 00:29:03,262
and been found guilty of capital murder.
513
00:29:07,516 --> 00:29:10,019
Lucas won't be transferred
to death row at Huntsville
514
00:29:10,102 --> 00:29:11,187
for the time being though.
515
00:29:11,270 --> 00:29:14,064
Instead, he will be kept
in the Williamson County Jail
516
00:29:14,148 --> 00:29:15,941
to assist the homicide task force,
517
00:29:16,025 --> 00:29:19,153
which is working on murders
he claims to have been involved in.
518
00:29:19,612 --> 00:29:22,114
The easy thing to have done
519
00:29:22,198 --> 00:29:24,283
would've been
to take him to the penitentiary
520
00:29:24,366 --> 00:29:25,409
the day he was convicted.
521
00:29:25,993 --> 00:29:27,912
That would've been the easy route
for everybody.
522
00:29:27,995 --> 00:29:31,916
But to the people
that have missing loved ones,
523
00:29:32,291 --> 00:29:34,543
we would certainly
be doing them an injustice.
524
00:29:34,627 --> 00:29:37,338
Department of Public Safety
says they owe it to the families
525
00:29:37,421 --> 00:29:39,048
and the lawmen of America
526
00:29:39,131 --> 00:29:43,010
to clear as many murder cases as possible
before Lucas is put to death.
527
00:29:44,970 --> 00:29:46,680
Now Lucas
is headed out of state
528
00:29:46,764 --> 00:29:49,391
to continue visits with law officials
around the country,
529
00:29:49,475 --> 00:29:52,186
and although authorities
refuse to reveal his itinerary,
530
00:29:52,269 --> 00:29:55,022
they do say he will be on the road
until September.
531
00:29:55,439 --> 00:29:57,942
Lucas came to New Orleans
amid great fanfare
532
00:29:58,025 --> 00:30:01,237
to confess to 30 more murders
in our metropolitan area.
533
00:30:01,987 --> 00:30:04,281
He'd never been on an airplane
in his life.
534
00:30:04,824 --> 00:30:08,410
Suddenly, they started flying him
all around the country
535
00:30:08,702 --> 00:30:10,371
to confess to these murders.
536
00:30:10,746 --> 00:30:14,208
He rubs elbows with cops
and drinks gallons of coffee,
537
00:30:14,834 --> 00:30:16,710
touring murder scenes.
538
00:30:18,045 --> 00:30:19,380
He was pretty cocky.
539
00:30:19,672 --> 00:30:21,674
When we went to California, he said,
540
00:30:22,132 --> 00:30:26,053
"I'll come, but I want a TV in my cell
every night wherever I am."
541
00:30:26,804 --> 00:30:30,850
We went to California for five
to seven days, something like that and...
542
00:30:30,933 --> 00:30:32,935
and they did put a TV in his cell.
543
00:30:34,353 --> 00:30:36,313
I'm here this morning to report that...
544
00:30:36,647 --> 00:30:40,025
15 outstanding California murder cases
have been resolved
545
00:30:40,109 --> 00:30:43,070
as a result
of a recently completed tour of the state
546
00:30:43,863 --> 00:30:47,366
by condemned serial killer
Henry Lee Lucas.
547
00:30:47,741 --> 00:30:51,745
Lucas led state and local authorities
to murder sites throughout California.
548
00:30:51,996 --> 00:30:54,290
Here is a print-out, by the way,
549
00:30:54,665 --> 00:30:57,293
that I have of the various locations,
550
00:30:57,376 --> 00:30:59,503
and it almost defies belief.
551
00:31:00,421 --> 00:31:03,132
He did virtually every kind of crime
known to man.
552
00:31:03,215 --> 00:31:04,508
You name it...
553
00:31:04,967 --> 00:31:06,802
You name it, he did it.
554
00:31:07,344 --> 00:31:10,055
I do know
that he has personally led officers...
555
00:31:10,639 --> 00:31:15,394
back physically to the scene
in excess of 100 times.
556
00:31:16,562 --> 00:31:19,231
It was like he was a movie star
everywhere he went.
557
00:31:19,315 --> 00:31:20,691
Here, I'll hold it for you.
558
00:31:21,275 --> 00:31:23,819
I've had a lot of people
come to me and...
559
00:31:24,445 --> 00:31:26,530
say, "Why? Why are you doing it?"
560
00:31:27,406 --> 00:31:31,493
And it's very simple. Why?
Because God asked me to do it.
561
00:31:31,744 --> 00:31:34,413
If it wasn't for Him,
I would never confess.
562
00:31:35,497 --> 00:31:38,918
I've been able to completely identify
563
00:31:39,501 --> 00:31:40,961
the locations,
564
00:31:41,045 --> 00:31:42,129
the details,
565
00:31:42,838 --> 00:31:44,173
and the way it's happened.
566
00:31:58,395 --> 00:32:01,565
Henry Lee Lucas was right here
in Lubbock yesterday,
567
00:32:01,649 --> 00:32:04,526
leading detectives
to several locations of murders,
568
00:32:04,610 --> 00:32:05,945
including this carport,
569
00:32:06,028 --> 00:32:10,282
where, in 1975, detectives found the body
of Deborah Sue Williamson.
570
00:32:11,116 --> 00:32:13,994
The detail Lucas provided
was so exact,
571
00:32:14,078 --> 00:32:15,454
authorities found it frightening.
572
00:32:15,996 --> 00:32:18,540
In some sense,
there is a little comfort now
573
00:32:18,624 --> 00:32:21,543
in knowing they have solved the unsolved.
574
00:32:26,924 --> 00:32:29,843
We got the call from the police,
575
00:32:29,927 --> 00:32:32,262
and we went Monday morning.
576
00:32:33,973 --> 00:32:36,392
They handed us this confession,
577
00:32:36,976 --> 00:32:38,852
how he went in the house.
578
00:32:39,937 --> 00:32:42,106
He said that he went
579
00:32:42,606 --> 00:32:44,608
in through the glass door.
580
00:32:45,943 --> 00:32:47,111
There was a big...
581
00:32:47,653 --> 00:32:51,156
curio cabinet in front of that patio door.
582
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,076
He could not have gone through it anyway.
583
00:32:54,493 --> 00:32:57,871
Went down the hall,
into the bedroom,
584
00:32:58,372 --> 00:33:01,792
and went out the back door.
585
00:33:04,628 --> 00:33:06,422
None of that happened.
586
00:33:08,257 --> 00:33:13,137
We told the detectives
we did not believe this,
587
00:33:13,220 --> 00:33:15,264
he could not have done this.
588
00:33:15,347 --> 00:33:18,100
How can you even accept this?
589
00:33:19,643 --> 00:33:21,395
We were mad.
590
00:33:23,063 --> 00:33:25,691
We went straight to the media.
591
00:33:26,025 --> 00:33:28,652
Bob and Joyce Lemons
are the parents of one of the victims
592
00:33:28,736 --> 00:33:30,738
in Henry's touted crime spree.
593
00:33:30,821 --> 00:33:32,364
At first, the Lemons were pleased
594
00:33:32,448 --> 00:33:35,242
that, at last, their daughter's killer
had been captured,
595
00:33:35,325 --> 00:33:38,037
but then they listened to a tape
of the confessions.
596
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,914
There was absolutely nothing
in the confession
597
00:33:40,998 --> 00:33:43,542
that indicated to us
that he knew anything about it.
598
00:33:44,043 --> 00:33:48,338
I don't think it would be proper for me
to comment on... on the evidence.
599
00:33:48,422 --> 00:33:52,176
That is their conclusion.
I disagree with their conclusion.
600
00:33:53,010 --> 00:33:54,553
He was absolutely amazed
601
00:33:54,636 --> 00:33:57,765
because we didn't buy
what, he was trying to sell us.
602
00:33:59,099 --> 00:34:00,601
Um...
-He was very upset
603
00:34:00,684 --> 00:34:02,811
because we found something wrong
with the tape.
604
00:34:03,604 --> 00:34:06,315
We had no help, no support.
605
00:34:08,358 --> 00:34:10,194
So we decided
606
00:34:10,277 --> 00:34:13,322
to do our own investigation.
607
00:34:14,323 --> 00:34:15,699
They wanted her case reopened,
608
00:34:15,783 --> 00:34:19,620
and that was the only way as to prove
either Henry did it or he didn't.
609
00:34:24,166 --> 00:34:25,626
They spent...
610
00:34:26,210 --> 00:34:28,045
month after month after month
611
00:34:28,128 --> 00:34:30,214
investigating and finding these people
612
00:34:30,297 --> 00:34:34,301
and getting actual factual documentation
to prove where Henry was.
613
00:34:34,718 --> 00:34:36,220
I feel like-- that Joyce and I
614
00:34:36,303 --> 00:34:39,973
were forced to go out and do...
615
00:34:40,891 --> 00:34:43,185
the work of law enforcement.
616
00:34:44,394 --> 00:34:46,647
Bob Lemons and I
went up to Maryland...
617
00:34:46,730 --> 00:34:50,400
...to trace Lucas's whereabouts.
618
00:34:50,818 --> 00:34:53,028
Your name, please?
-Betty M. Crawford.
619
00:34:53,112 --> 00:34:55,155
We found Betty Crawford
620
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,825
who had been married to Henry Lucas.
621
00:34:58,951 --> 00:35:00,619
We got a certificate
622
00:35:00,994 --> 00:35:03,497
showing that they were married
on the same day
623
00:35:03,956 --> 00:35:06,041
that Lucas had already confessed
624
00:35:06,125 --> 00:35:08,252
to killing someone in Pennsylvania.
625
00:35:09,086 --> 00:35:11,839
What were your feelings
towards Henry Lucas?
626
00:35:12,339 --> 00:35:15,467
He is a sick, perverted man.
627
00:35:16,093 --> 00:35:17,594
When I found out, when he...
628
00:35:17,970 --> 00:35:21,140
he had left, that he had molested
my two oldest daughters.
629
00:35:23,225 --> 00:35:26,937
In that process, discovering
who he was and where he was, um,
630
00:35:27,020 --> 00:35:29,356
there was no way
that he could've been in Texas
631
00:35:29,439 --> 00:35:30,649
at the time Debbie was killed.
632
00:35:31,859 --> 00:35:36,947
Debbie was murdered
on August 24th, 1975.
633
00:35:37,489 --> 00:35:41,577
And we found out that he had just gotten
out of prison
634
00:35:41,660 --> 00:35:44,163
on the 22nd of August.
635
00:35:44,913 --> 00:35:47,708
Well, he, called me from Perryville...
636
00:35:48,167 --> 00:35:49,918
-Okay.
-...at the bus depot...
637
00:35:50,460 --> 00:35:52,337
for me to come and pick him up.
638
00:35:53,380 --> 00:35:57,634
And he was living there
with his half-sister
639
00:35:57,718 --> 00:36:00,095
at the time Debbie was murdered.
640
00:36:00,179 --> 00:36:02,931
Do you believe
that he wasn't even in Texas
641
00:36:03,015 --> 00:36:04,558
on the night your daughter was murdered?
642
00:36:04,641 --> 00:36:07,394
I know he wasn't.
-We know he wasn't. We know where he was.
643
00:36:07,477 --> 00:36:08,520
He was in Maryland.
644
00:36:08,604 --> 00:36:13,066
In all our travels
and all the time we went to Maryland,
645
00:36:13,567 --> 00:36:17,321
we never once met anybody
646
00:36:17,571 --> 00:36:19,448
that had talked to
647
00:36:19,531 --> 00:36:21,116
an investigator,
648
00:36:21,742 --> 00:36:23,035
or a Ranger,
649
00:36:23,577 --> 00:36:25,704
or anybody from Texas.
650
00:36:28,957 --> 00:36:32,753
We went to Georgetown
to meet with Bob Prince.
651
00:36:34,504 --> 00:36:37,841
I was aware
of the Lemons from...
652
00:36:38,425 --> 00:36:42,930
the criticism of law enforcement
that they were doing in the news media.
653
00:36:43,555 --> 00:36:44,848
And they lost a child.
654
00:36:45,390 --> 00:36:49,269
And they were hurting
the way any parent would be.
655
00:36:50,312 --> 00:36:54,483
And... But they were taking their anger
out on...
656
00:36:55,692 --> 00:36:56,777
the wrong folks.
657
00:36:57,778 --> 00:37:01,573
Bob Lemons and his wife
just came into my office one day
658
00:37:01,657 --> 00:37:05,244
and demanded that they talk to me
about the case.
659
00:37:05,911 --> 00:37:08,664
We took documents with us.
660
00:37:09,248 --> 00:37:10,999
We told him,
661
00:37:11,083 --> 00:37:12,918
"Here is the facts.
662
00:37:13,001 --> 00:37:15,963
Henry could not have done this."
663
00:37:16,046 --> 00:37:17,673
I told them when they got there,
664
00:37:19,216 --> 00:37:22,052
"I don't know anything about it,
can't talk to you about it.
665
00:37:22,135 --> 00:37:24,388
You'll need to talk
to the Lubbock authorities."
666
00:37:24,930 --> 00:37:27,766
I know they got extremely upset.
667
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:31,895
Mr. Lemons got,
668
00:37:31,979 --> 00:37:34,773
to where we thought
it was gonna be physical.
669
00:37:34,856 --> 00:37:37,025
Bob Prince gave me the alternative
670
00:37:37,109 --> 00:37:40,946
of either leave on your own power,
or we'll throw you out.
671
00:37:41,613 --> 00:37:44,032
What did you think
of their investigation?
672
00:37:44,366 --> 00:37:45,575
The Lemons?
673
00:37:45,659 --> 00:37:48,704
I have no comment about the Lemons.
You know, they're...
674
00:37:49,288 --> 00:37:51,707
Well, they've invested
years of their life
675
00:37:51,790 --> 00:37:53,250
looking into the Lucas case.
676
00:37:57,713 --> 00:37:59,089
I have no interest in that.
677
00:38:08,807 --> 00:38:11,601
One by one, I could show that
678
00:38:11,685 --> 00:38:14,396
a lot of these murder cases
he was taking,
679
00:38:14,855 --> 00:38:19,109
it was virtually impossible
for Lucas to be there.
680
00:38:19,901 --> 00:38:22,571
So then I went to the Dallas Times Herald.
681
00:38:24,364 --> 00:38:26,742
And, within hours, they agreed.
682
00:38:27,117 --> 00:38:29,411
Gave me the best reporter they had.
683
00:38:30,454 --> 00:38:33,165
I wasn't really into crime reporting.
684
00:38:33,457 --> 00:38:36,126
I'd done a lot of that when I was younger.
685
00:38:36,209 --> 00:38:38,503
I was never one of these people
who thought
686
00:38:38,587 --> 00:38:41,131
criminals were interesting people.
687
00:38:42,883 --> 00:38:46,428
But we sit down and talked
about the Henry Lucas story,
688
00:38:46,762 --> 00:38:50,098
and Hugh even said,
"Well, we might be able to prove
689
00:38:50,349 --> 00:38:53,018
15 or 20 of these he couldn't have done."
690
00:38:53,435 --> 00:38:56,313
We found out real quickly
691
00:38:56,897 --> 00:38:59,232
that it was a lot more than 15 or 20.
692
00:39:02,152 --> 00:39:06,365
And it was surprisingly easy to prove
where Lucas was
693
00:39:06,448 --> 00:39:10,035
going back to 1975,
when he was turned loose from prison.
694
00:39:14,206 --> 00:39:16,917
And he had work records
and dental appointments.
695
00:39:17,292 --> 00:39:19,044
Speeding tickets,
696
00:39:19,127 --> 00:39:20,087
banking records,
697
00:39:20,170 --> 00:39:21,129
IOUs.
698
00:39:22,005 --> 00:39:25,884
His dog had pooped in a park
and he was in trouble for that.
699
00:39:26,676 --> 00:39:30,347
And it turned out
Lucas left a large paper trail.
700
00:39:30,847 --> 00:39:34,434
And he really wasn't the drifter
he was being described as.
701
00:39:35,852 --> 00:39:41,233
Jim and I were able to get ahold
of the task force report.
702
00:39:42,567 --> 00:39:44,653
The first thing we had to do was
703
00:39:44,861 --> 00:39:47,197
get the cases in chronological order.
704
00:39:47,489 --> 00:39:49,574
I think there were maybe 200 of them,
705
00:39:49,991 --> 00:39:52,702
from when he was released from prison
in 1975,
706
00:39:53,453 --> 00:39:57,457
up until 1983
when he was in jail in Montague County.
707
00:39:58,875 --> 00:40:03,130
It was simple enough to see
the folly of the whole thing.
708
00:40:05,715 --> 00:40:09,177
Some sheriff in Minnesota
would call up and say,
709
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,805
"You got anything on Henry
on June 2nd?"
710
00:40:12,681 --> 00:40:16,226
They'd look at the list of crimes
he confessed to up on the wall.
711
00:40:17,227 --> 00:40:19,438
"Nope, he was--
he was available that day."
712
00:40:20,313 --> 00:40:22,399
They'd write down "June 2nd."
713
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,154
And then a call came in, the guy said,
"Is June 4th open?"
714
00:40:27,988 --> 00:40:28,864
Yeah.
715
00:40:28,947 --> 00:40:29,948
So, they got...
716
00:40:30,615 --> 00:40:32,367
June the 2nd in Minneapolis
717
00:40:32,742 --> 00:40:33,952
and June the 4th
718
00:40:34,536 --> 00:40:37,164
in Seattle or El Paso.
719
00:40:37,247 --> 00:40:38,748
It was striking.
720
00:40:44,421 --> 00:40:47,340
They have Lucas driving
to commit a murder
721
00:40:47,424 --> 00:40:50,927
in Spokane, Washington
on October 2nd,
722
00:40:52,012 --> 00:40:54,514
driving more than 2,000 miles
723
00:40:54,598 --> 00:40:57,601
for an attempted abduction on October 4th,
724
00:40:58,101 --> 00:41:03,982
driven 600 miles to kill in Saline County,
Arkansas on October 7,
725
00:41:04,691 --> 00:41:10,405
travel 950 miles to kill in New Mexico
on October 16.
726
00:41:11,531 --> 00:41:16,536
Then traveling 1,000 miles
to kill in Nevada on October 27,
727
00:41:17,204 --> 00:41:22,918
and driving 1,600 miles
to kill in Bossier City, Louisiana
728
00:41:23,001 --> 00:41:24,628
on October 29.
729
00:41:25,337 --> 00:41:29,633
And another 2,100 miles away
to kill two days later,
730
00:41:30,509 --> 00:41:35,347
then back another 2,000 miles
to kill two days after that.
731
00:41:38,558 --> 00:41:40,352
It just was not possible.
732
00:41:41,436 --> 00:41:43,688
I mean, if they were traveling
by cruise missile,
733
00:41:43,772 --> 00:41:47,317
they couldn't have gotten there that--
that many places that quick.
734
00:41:48,818 --> 00:41:51,655
Lucas would have had
to travel constantly,
735
00:41:51,738 --> 00:41:53,156
50 miles an hour,
736
00:41:53,490 --> 00:41:55,575
with absolutely no sleep,
737
00:41:55,659 --> 00:41:56,743
no stop,
738
00:41:56,993 --> 00:41:58,954
no gas-up, nothing.
739
00:42:00,580 --> 00:42:03,959
Now, how ridiculous can you get?
740
00:42:04,042 --> 00:42:05,919
And if it's that obvious,
741
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,215
why wasn't it obvious to the Rangers or--
742
00:42:10,674 --> 00:42:12,300
and to Sheriff Boutwell?
743
00:42:13,552 --> 00:42:15,804
Lucas traveled far and wide.
744
00:42:16,346 --> 00:42:20,100
He loved to drive.
He loved to live in a car.
745
00:42:21,226 --> 00:42:24,229
He got his money for gas
by killing and robbing.
746
00:42:25,146 --> 00:42:28,567
I don't think Henry Lucas knows
how many people he's killed...
747
00:42:28,942 --> 00:42:31,695
I don't think anybody knows
how many people he's killed.
748
00:42:32,612 --> 00:42:36,283
But I'm certain
that he is probably the biggest
749
00:42:36,658 --> 00:42:39,119
multiple killer
in the history of this country.
750
00:42:43,164 --> 00:42:45,292
I was traveling a lot at that time,
751
00:42:45,375 --> 00:42:48,003
trying to pin down Lucas' story.
752
00:42:48,753 --> 00:42:51,923
I came home one time
and one of the windows was broken.
753
00:42:52,757 --> 00:42:56,553
Cameras, television sets and everything
wasn't touched.
754
00:42:57,637 --> 00:43:00,390
But many of my tapes were missing.
755
00:43:01,308 --> 00:43:03,560
And the tapes that were taken
756
00:43:03,643 --> 00:43:06,271
were some of the interviews
of Henry Lee Lucas.
757
00:43:06,354 --> 00:43:09,024
I went to, Maryland to live...
758
00:43:09,316 --> 00:43:11,318
I knew a lot of police in Dallas,
759
00:43:11,568 --> 00:43:13,862
but I knew that they all band together,
760
00:43:14,696 --> 00:43:16,239
so I never reported it.
761
00:43:16,698 --> 00:43:19,659
Later on, when I ran into Boutwell
the next time,
762
00:43:19,743 --> 00:43:23,663
he said, "I'm sure sorry to hear
about you being burglarized, Hugh."
763
00:43:24,623 --> 00:43:26,333
It was in no newspaper.
764
00:43:26,708 --> 00:43:31,004
Nobody but my very close friends knew
about the burglary.
765
00:43:42,307 --> 00:43:44,726
I remember hearing
about Henry Lucas.
766
00:43:44,809 --> 00:43:47,604
I think it was
before I was sworn in as DA.
767
00:43:47,687 --> 00:43:49,898
It could have been during the campaign.
768
00:43:51,274 --> 00:43:54,736
It's like, "Whoa!
That guy confessed to another one!"
769
00:43:57,697 --> 00:43:59,991
I got a call from the Texas Rangers
770
00:44:00,075 --> 00:44:02,160
that he had confessed to...
771
00:44:02,661 --> 00:44:04,704
three crimes in my county,
772
00:44:04,788 --> 00:44:07,999
and they wanted to bring him up
and let him plead guilty.
773
00:44:09,668 --> 00:44:12,337
For a young ambitious DA like I was,
774
00:44:12,420 --> 00:44:15,382
to be handed Lucas cases
775
00:44:15,799 --> 00:44:17,759
that he wasn't even gonna contest...
776
00:44:17,842 --> 00:44:21,304
He would just come in, we'd get
the free publicity and it's over.
777
00:44:21,388 --> 00:44:23,598
That was like somebody handing me a...
778
00:44:23,932 --> 00:44:27,352
a chocolate cake with a big cherry on top,
you know?
779
00:44:27,435 --> 00:44:30,146
It would help boost my political career.
780
00:44:32,023 --> 00:44:35,193
I was ready to stand in line with the rest
of them, get my picture taken,
781
00:44:35,276 --> 00:44:38,571
get the boogeyman out of there
and go on my way.
782
00:44:41,491 --> 00:44:45,328
But when the Rangers brought
the three cases to my office,
783
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:49,290
I had suspicions about those confessions.
784
00:44:50,333 --> 00:44:53,712
I knew he didn't killed Dorothy Collins
785
00:44:53,795 --> 00:44:55,130
'cause we knew who did.
786
00:44:55,755 --> 00:45:01,302
Then I looked a lot closer
at Glen Parks and Rita Salazar.
787
00:45:02,303 --> 00:45:04,055
Now, in the Rita Salazar case,
788
00:45:04,305 --> 00:45:07,142
Henry's confession sounded funny to me.
789
00:45:07,684 --> 00:45:11,563
I'd read a lot of confessions by then,
I'd already tried a lot of cases,
790
00:45:11,646 --> 00:45:15,984
so I knew
what a real confession smelled like.
791
00:45:16,443 --> 00:45:20,280
And the one on, Miss Salazar
just bothered me.
792
00:45:22,907 --> 00:45:24,784
That's when I asked Truman.
793
00:45:25,452 --> 00:45:29,706
Truman Simons was a Sheriff's Deputy
assigned to the DA's office
794
00:45:29,789 --> 00:45:31,833
for homicide investigations.
795
00:45:33,084 --> 00:45:35,336
And I said, "See if you can figure out
796
00:45:35,420 --> 00:45:37,297
where Henry Lucas was
797
00:45:37,672 --> 00:45:39,382
on the dates of these murders.
798
00:45:39,466 --> 00:45:42,635
Get into TCIC, NCIC."
799
00:45:42,886 --> 00:45:45,972
Those are the computer
for the Texas Criminal Records
800
00:45:46,055 --> 00:45:47,432
and the National Criminal Records.
801
00:45:47,515 --> 00:45:49,476
Now, we didn't have internet back then.
802
00:45:49,976 --> 00:45:53,188
All we had was a little old screen
down in the basement like this
803
00:45:53,271 --> 00:45:56,191
that was connected
to just those two databases.
804
00:46:04,574 --> 00:46:05,909
When I ran him, traffic,
805
00:46:05,992 --> 00:46:07,911
I mean, it lit up on NCIC.
806
00:46:07,994 --> 00:46:10,163
He had all kinds of different places
where he'd been.
807
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,752
And he had like 11 or 12 dates
808
00:46:16,044 --> 00:46:17,670
where Henry had been
809
00:46:18,171 --> 00:46:21,925
either incarcerated
or getting, tickets
810
00:46:22,008 --> 00:46:25,136
in different places
from some of these other murders
811
00:46:25,220 --> 00:46:27,263
that had already been cleared.
812
00:46:29,015 --> 00:46:31,851
And I remember
I was working late one night,
813
00:46:32,852 --> 00:46:34,771
and Truman came up to my office,
814
00:46:34,854 --> 00:46:36,856
and he looked white as a sheet.
815
00:46:36,940 --> 00:46:39,567
And he said, "You're not gonna believe
what just happened."
816
00:46:40,527 --> 00:46:41,986
I went into NCIC,
817
00:46:42,070 --> 00:46:45,073
and when I pulled up Henry Lucas,
818
00:46:45,156 --> 00:46:47,992
to try to look
for more records in the background,
819
00:46:48,243 --> 00:46:49,619
it flickered a little,
820
00:46:50,119 --> 00:46:53,289
and then I got a message
that said "Access Denied."
821
00:46:55,792 --> 00:46:57,752
I think my heart skipped a beat.
822
00:47:02,549 --> 00:47:04,342
Well, you got a guy that, you know,
823
00:47:04,425 --> 00:47:07,804
supposedly is a serial killer,
mass murderer, and all that kind of stuff,
824
00:47:07,887 --> 00:47:10,473
and they're trying to keep people
in law enforcement
825
00:47:10,557 --> 00:47:11,933
from finding out about him.
826
00:47:12,016 --> 00:47:14,102
It's just spooky, and just...
827
00:47:14,185 --> 00:47:15,687
I never ran into that before.
828
00:47:17,397 --> 00:47:19,399
I knew then we were up against
829
00:47:19,482 --> 00:47:22,819
some very, very powerful people.
830
00:47:23,403 --> 00:47:25,446
And somebody was gonna get hurt,
831
00:47:25,947 --> 00:47:28,157
and I was afraid it was gonna be me.
65526
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