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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:06,120 In 1920, the leader of an obscure German political party 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,800 made what seemed at the time an insignificant decision. 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:15,440 Adolf Hitler adopted a symbol 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,480 for his National Democratic Socialist Party. 5 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,760 It was a symbol which, over the next two decades, 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,040 would become synonymous with hatred, fear, 7 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,440 and a regime that slaughtered millions. 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:32,880 The swastika. 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:40,200 The swastika means Nazism. It means evil, death and genocide. 10 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,680 In Auschwitz, it was an emblem that I hated 11 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,240 and I didn't even want to see it. 12 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,880 But the swastika has a long and complex history. 13 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:59,520 For thousands of years, this has been a religious symbol, 14 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:05,000 with a sacred past. A sign of benevolence, luck and good fortune. 15 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:13,000 And for the nearly one billion Hindus around the world today, 16 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,400 it lies at the heart of their religious practices and beliefs. 17 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,640 For me personally, the swastika means hope. It means purity, 18 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:23,880 it means auspiciousness. 19 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:29,360 The swastika will be used by Hindus to evoke a sense of the sacred. 20 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,800 To draw the attention of the divine to human undertakings. 21 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,480 But because of its recent past, in the West, the Hindu swastika 22 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,240 has sometimes provoked hostility. 23 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,280 I've got a tattoo of a swastika on my lip. 24 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,360 And when I got it done, the tattoo artist was a little taken aback 25 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,880 and he was like, "Ah, Jew killer." And I said, "No." 26 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,240 In the week when Hindus across Britain are celebrating 27 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:06,680 the holy festival of Diwali, we tell the story of their sacred symbol. 28 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,600 And we bring together members of the communities 29 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,880 for whom it has the most potent meaning, 30 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,400 to see if a new experience of the swastika 31 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,960 could break down long-held prejudices. 32 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,800 It's very beautiful. I mean, it's obviously quite different, 33 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:24,760 being in gold compared to red and black. 34 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,120 Can Hindus restore the reputation of a symbol 35 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,320 they believe invokes the blessings of the divine? 36 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:45,400 Sunday morning. 37 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,160 Chalfont Cricket Club in leafy Buckinghamshire. 38 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,640 A place associated with English teas 39 00:02:52,640 --> 00:02:55,480 and the gentle competitiveness of the weekend sportsman. 40 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,680 Certainly not a place you'd expect to see a symbol 41 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:05,120 most commonly associated with the fascist regimes of pre-war Germany. 42 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,000 But today is an exception. 43 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,840 The club is host to a Hindu wedding celebration, 44 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,800 in which the swastika plays a vital role. 45 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,720 As the guests congregate and the happy couple arrive, 46 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,240 the Hindu priest has an important task... 47 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,280 ..Placing a swastika in front of the sacred area 48 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,880 where the couple will sit during the ceremony. 49 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,600 And the meaning of this swastika 50 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,400 is a world away from that of Nazi Germany. 51 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:57,520 It's a diagram. 52 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,120 The moment you look at the diagram, it should invoke the peace 53 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:02,720 within you. 54 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,360 So it has the swastika. 55 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:09,080 "Swasti" means well-being, "swastika" - asking the well-being of the gods. 56 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,120 A statue of their elephant-headed god, Ganesh, 57 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,560 is placed at the centre of the swastika. 58 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,000 Ganesh is the remover of all obstacles. 59 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,640 And as the priest rotates him, 60 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,920 it's believed any hindrances to the ceremony are removed. 61 00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:34,040 For Hindus, the swastika isn't only a sacred power for good, 62 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,280 but an essential element of any rite of passage. 63 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,120 Ramesh Pattni is the father of the groom. 64 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,440 The word "swastik" actually comes from the Sanskrit word 65 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,840 for a state of auspiciousness. 66 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:57,160 Wherever any ceremony is performed - and Hindus have got 16 ceremonies 67 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,800 during the lifetime, and each one of them 68 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:05,080 will have one way or the other in which the swastik is represented. 69 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,720 In the wedding, the swastik, it is the most important. 70 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,400 Because the wedding ceremony marks a transition 71 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,000 from one period of life to another. 72 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:16,040 HE CHANTS 73 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,080 And therefore all the auspiciousness is required. 74 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:22,960 Warm the hands and get up! Yes! 75 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,800 It's the first exercise as wife and husband! 76 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,080 As unlikely as it might seem to those not brought up 77 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,840 in the Hindu faith, for the Hindus here today, 78 00:05:33,840 --> 00:05:37,400 a wedding without a swastika would be unusual. 79 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,440 I now declare you wife and husband. May God bless you. 80 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,200 You look beautiful. You'll live happily ever after. 81 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:46,960 For this young couple, 82 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,440 the swastika ensures their marriage is blessed by the gods. 83 00:05:52,280 --> 00:05:55,520 It's a far cry from its associations in the West. 84 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,960 Most western people when they see it, 85 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:05,040 they see a Nazi German symbol. 86 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:09,720 Shaunaka Rishi Das has been a Hindu priest for more than 30 years. 87 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,520 It is interesting that Hindus themselves, 88 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,600 they're brought up with the swastika, it's perfectly normal for them. 89 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,320 You see all the children at the wedding, 90 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,080 they're just seeing it from birth. Then they go to school 91 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,320 and learn that the Nazis used it in this way. 92 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,520 But you have to understand that here's a tradition that's ancient. 93 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,600 And the Germans borrow it from a different culture and misuse it 94 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,880 over less than two decades, and all of a sudden it develops 95 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,080 an internationally bad reputation. 96 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,520 HE CHANTS 97 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,400 Of all the symbols produced by ancient and modern man, 98 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,440 this is the most contradictory. 99 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,400 And its origins are shrouded in mystery. 100 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,960 Images of the swastika have been found across the world. 101 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,080 And the earliest examples date back thousands of years. 102 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,440 Well, the swastika's one of those strange symbols that you find 103 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,600 in lots of different cultures. 104 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,240 You see it in China and Japan, you see it in Mongolia, 105 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,840 you see it in the ancient Mediterranean world, in Greece, 106 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,880 even over in Native American cultures and in the British Isles as well. 107 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,040 But despite the swastika's prolific-ness, 108 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,040 its original meaning is an enigma. 109 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,920 Perhaps it's just a simple, elegant geometry. 110 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,360 Maybe it was a solar symbol. 111 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,400 It's so universal that we can't really find a first point of use, 112 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,800 it just has a kind of instinctive appeal across the world. 113 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:51,440 Some of the most ancient swastikas were found here, in India. 114 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,960 And over the centuries, it's been adopted across the Subcontinent 115 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:00,600 by many different religions. 116 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:08,120 Hindus, Buddhists and Jains all see it a holy symbol. 117 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:13,160 It's displayed just about everywhere, to bring good fortune. 118 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,680 And there's one time of year that it's specially prominent. 119 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:24,760 At the Hindu festival of Diwali. 120 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,800 It's a five day celebration to mark the Hindu New Year. 121 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,040 Also known as the festival of lights, 122 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,720 it marks the triumph of good over evil. 123 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:57,200 And in India, the streets are a riot of noise and colour. 124 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:06,120 The festival honours deities such as the goddess of wealth, Lakshmi, 125 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,680 and so the swastika is painted on the account books 126 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:13,520 for the new financial year, to ensure prosperity. 127 00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:18,600 But it's not just in the East that the swastika features 128 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,040 in Diwali festivities. 129 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,160 This is Neasden Temple in North West London. 130 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,560 It's the spiritual home to thousands of Hindus. 131 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,800 And every Diwali, the ladies of the temple 132 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:46,240 spend hours making an incredible display, known as a rangoli, 133 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,080 like this one, in which the swastika plays a central role. 134 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,960 Rangoli patterns are literal forms of art 135 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:01,240 and they're created by hand, generally by women who use rice 136 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:02,240 or coloured rice. 137 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:10,200 Avni Chag has been celebrating Diwali here for most of her life. 138 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,640 Diwali represents the festival of lights. 139 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,840 If you go back to physics lessons, you'll always be taught 140 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,000 how the spectrum of colours originates from white light. 141 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:26,440 And I think that's completely honoured within these beautiful 142 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,320 geometric patterns and these beautiful designs that are created 143 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:35,800 during Diwali. And most commonly you will see the Hindu swastika. 144 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:40,840 And for some it may mean prosperity, for some it may mean good luck. 145 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,840 For me personally, the swastika means hope. 146 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,640 For Hindus who've grown up with the swastika, 147 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,280 finding out that this emblem of light has been used 148 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,320 for the darkest of purposes, can be horrifying. 149 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,520 I was pretty much born with the symbol surrounding me, 150 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,280 and at special occasions, 151 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,080 festivals, this symbol would be prevalent. 152 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:16,000 And then when I finally started studying about the Second World War 153 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,440 in history lessons at school, I freaked out. 154 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:32,920 I saw the symbol and I was just completely gobsmacked. 155 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,800 Seeing it in this textbook associated with the Holocaust, with genocide, 156 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,480 with racial intolerance, was quite a shock. 157 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:52,040 And I wondered how it could've been mutated from something so positive 158 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:53,560 to something to so negative. 159 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,840 So how did this sacred symbol come to symbolise 160 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,320 one of the most evil regimes in history? 161 00:12:08,560 --> 00:12:11,800 The swastika's metamorphosis began with an archaeological dig 162 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:13,080 in the 19th century. 163 00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:20,960 In 1874, excavations started at a site believed to be 164 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,240 the ancient city of Troy in Turkey. 165 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,080 They were led by a German businessman 166 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:29,640 named Heinrich Schliemann. 167 00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:34,520 Schliemann was an adventurer and his real mission 168 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,720 was to find the real Troy, the Troy of the Homeric epics. 169 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:45,120 Now, as he dug, he found spheres. Strange spheres with an equator 170 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,200 round them bearing the image of what we would call the swastika 171 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,480 and plenty of fragments of pottery bearing swastikas. 172 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,760 What Schliemann had uncovered was to have deadly consequences. 173 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:03,240 His work would inadvertently lay the foundations for a new mythology 174 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,280 of the swastika to be constructed. 175 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:11,120 One which would transform it from a sacred symbol of benevolence 176 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,400 into the Nazi emblem of the Aryan master race. 177 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:19,720 Now, Schliemann didn't know what these symbols were. 178 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,720 But there were scholars who were willing to interpret these objects 179 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,000 and these symbols for him. 180 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,000 One of these men was a man called Emile Burnouf. 181 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,480 Burnouf was a scholar of ancient Indian literature, 182 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,360 and it was to a Hindu epic called the Rig Veda 183 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,440 that he turned to try and make sense of Schliemann's find. 184 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:44,280 In the Rig Vedas, there are a people called the Arias mentioned, 185 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:49,360 and in the lexicon of the Rig Vedas, the word "swastika" is mentioned. 186 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:54,000 And scholars like Burnouf put the swastika together with the Arias, 187 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:59,120 and said, "Ah! This was the ancient symbol of these people, the Arias, 188 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:03,880 "and these people were invaders, warriors, who came from the North, 189 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,840 "who displaced the existing people of India. 190 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,320 "And these were the same people who we find represented 191 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,800 "in the pottery fragments of Troy." 192 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,480 Two entirely unconnected mythologies were becoming one. 193 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:24,280 The people of ancient Troy were being fused with the Aryans 194 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,320 of the Hindu Rig Vedas. 195 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,360 And the swastika was the symbol that Burnouf claimed united them. 196 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,680 So, really, the swastika fragment became for pseudo-scholars 197 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,920 like Burnouf, the perfect excuse to build a new mythology, 198 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:47,120 and invent a single pan-European colonial warrior race 199 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,680 using the swastika as their emblem. 200 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,600 For Hitler, a symbol with such a mythology - albeit invented - 201 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,480 was the perfect emblem for his ambitions for Germany. 202 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,840 The Nazis were involved in this huge project of trying to create 203 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,080 a new history for themselves. 204 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,840 They weren't really happy with their association with Christian history 205 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,800 because they saw that as having Hebrew, Jewish roots. 206 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:18,080 And it was that notion of a history that was being kind of imagined 207 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:22,720 out of these different symbols and sources that Hitler wanted to use 208 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:27,040 to give the Nazi movement its own foundation. 209 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:38,320 Within decades, the swastika had been ripped from its ancient religious roots, 210 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,080 and become shorthand for the Nazis and their chilling agenda. 211 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,640 It was perhaps the most successful example of cultural theft in history. 212 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:52,960 When you look at the swastika, 213 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,120 you don't think this is the symbol of Hinduism. 214 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,080 No, the swastika means Nazism. 215 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,000 It means evil, death and genocide. 216 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:10,520 With its new connotations across Europe so entrenched, it seems unlikely 217 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:15,200 that the Hindu symbol can ever rid itself of the shadow of Nazism. 218 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:23,560 Especially, when for those who suffered directly in the Holocaust, it unlocks terrifying memories. 219 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,640 I was taken into my first camp at 11 and a half. 220 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:38,960 It was just a horrendous place. 221 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,480 Arek Hersh lost 81 members of his family under the Nazis. 222 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:49,960 SS men were there... 223 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,120 ..and they were beating people, and hanging people and... 224 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,080 ..just a few of us survived. 225 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,160 But you see the swastika everywhere. 226 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,280 I abhorred it, actually. 227 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:17,840 I hated to look at it even... 228 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,360 ..because I suffered very much under it. 229 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,840 And even for young Jews today, it's a symbol they still struggle with. 230 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,160 I do shudder when I see it. 231 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,720 It's something that is very infamous in the Jewish community. 232 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,960 And it's something that I think it would be very difficult...to change. 233 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:04,280 The Nazi theft of the Hindu sacred symbol changed 234 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,920 the perception of the swastika in the west, forever. 235 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,080 And yet at the time in India, 236 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,040 it was something most Hindus were unaware of. 237 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,360 The vast majority of Hindus especially in rural areas, mostly illiterate, 238 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:25,160 obviously did not know for a very long time 239 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,240 how it had been used by the Nazis. 240 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,680 But for the educated classes, I think there was a sense of being appalled. 241 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,200 And amongst Hindus today, 242 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,240 feelings against the Nazis' theft of the swastika run high. 243 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,320 Germany thought they can hijack this sacred symbol 244 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,040 from the Vedic culture 245 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:51,400 and use it you know to enforce their white supremacy and all that. 246 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:57,920 And, people are very angry and upset that a sacred symbol so dear to them 247 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,960 in their religion is hijacked by somebody like this. 248 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:07,440 After the war, the feeling against the swastika was so strong, 249 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,280 that in Germany and Poland, it was banned. 250 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,080 And since then it's become shorthand, not for divine blessings, 251 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,200 but for race hatred. 252 00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:26,480 It's a misappropriation that's had a real impact on Hindus today. 253 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,040 The difficult thing is that the swastika that Hitler uses 254 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:36,480 and the swastika that Indian culture uses, really do look a lot the same. 255 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,920 Often the Indian swastika will have dots between the four arms, 256 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:47,200 but there aren't any definite differences that you can always use to separate them out. 257 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,720 And that can make it hard for people to distinguish which symbol they're looking at. 258 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:58,360 And it's this confusion, in a society with little understanding of Hinduism, 259 00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:02,480 that's led to the Hindu symbol inadvertently finding itself under attack. 260 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:12,240 In 2007 German MEPs proposed a ban of the public use of swastikas 261 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,880 right across the European Union. 262 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,160 It was a proposition that upset many Hindus. 263 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,840 The British Hindus woke up to this 264 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:29,240 and they carried out a campaign to bring awareness 265 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,720 to the members of the British Parliament... 266 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,680 ..to make them understand how sacred this swastika is to the Hindu faith. 267 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,960 The British Hindu response was that this was a Eurocentric proposal. 268 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,480 It wasn't taking into account the bigger picture. 269 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,520 Millions of people use this symbol on a daily basis. 270 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,680 What had started out as an anxiety about Nazism, 271 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,720 had turned into a fight for religious freedom. 272 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,160 If Europe wants to be seen as a truly liberal society, 273 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,120 then it has to really be liberal in the bigger picture. 274 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:21,760 It has to let go of its history maybe...to look at how this symbol has been used in the world 275 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:28,160 in such a positive way for thousands of years, compared to the European historical aberration 276 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,040 that needs to be recognised 277 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,600 but also needs to be balanced with the bigger picture. 278 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,440 The reaction stopped the ban in its tracks... 279 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:45,720 ..and British Hindus were free to display their sacred symbol once more. 280 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,360 But even though it's not illegal in Britain to show the swastika, 281 00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:55,080 Hindus who do display it, sometimes face misunderstandings and even insults. 282 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,400 One of the things about Hindus is we don't always explain 283 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:05,400 ourselves very well and children if they take into school 284 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,840 something which displays the swastika, if their friends 285 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:14,920 and even the teachers don't know the meaning, they sometimes get chastised 286 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:20,480 or even worse, you know bullied, for being associated with Nazism. 287 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,880 Bharti Taylor spends much of her time teaching children about Hinduism. 288 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,720 It's a holy symbol for us, whether you draw it other way or this way. 289 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,840 For her, the key to Hindus being able to show the sign without fear, is knowledge. 290 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,960 I think we should have more education so that everybody understands 291 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,800 that the symbol is meant to be for the good, not an evil symbol. 292 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,520 But can Western, European perceptions really be changed? 293 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,840 Well, where better to start, than with the community for whom 294 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:04,680 the swastika holds the greatest fears...the Jews. 295 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,640 Today, Josh Dubell, a member of a London synagogue, 296 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,040 has been invited to the local Hindu Temple in Neasden. 297 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,080 The Hindus want to show him the beautiful rangoli they've created. 298 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,800 and to talk to him about their connection with the swastika, 299 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,440 in the hope that he might begin to see it in a different light. 300 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,760 If I saw a swastika on the wall in my local area, 301 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,800 I would report it straight away as an anti-semitic attack. 302 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:43,080 It's something that is synonymous with erm...with hate crimes. 303 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,440 I can understand that when Josh comes he'll come with some idea of the swastika, 304 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,360 and so it'll be interesting to see how he feels when he does see it, 305 00:23:56,360 --> 00:23:58,720 when it's portrayed within the temple. 306 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,160 I don't know that much about it as a Hindu symbol. 307 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:11,680 So I really hope to learn what it means to the Hindu faith. 308 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,120 Avni is going to show him round. 309 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,320 Hello. Hello. Hi, Josh, nice to meet you. 310 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,440 Nice to meet you too, how are you? I'm good, welcome to Neasden Temple. 311 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,560 Thank you, very happy to be here. Yeah? 312 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,600 And the first swastika Josh encounters appears before he even gets inside. 313 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:48,680 The main symbol that I'd like to point out to you is on the doors. 314 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,400 And that's the swastika. Ah, yes. 315 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,400 And I guess what that represents is that it's a sign of welcome, 316 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:01,120 and it's welcoming and wishing them good luck as they enter the temple to pray. Mmm. 317 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:04,520 It's really interesting. I mean me and my people seeing that 318 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,080 symbol in the past hasn't really provided me with that luck, but... 319 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,880 Especially as defined as you can see it here, yeah. 320 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,080 How do you feel about it? 321 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,560 It's, it's just a little erm... 322 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,640 ..taken aback a little bit by the erm...seeing it like this. 323 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,520 It's obviously quite different being gold compared to red and black. 324 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,880 But it's erm...it's really, really beautiful. 325 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:33,600 Shall we go on in? Yeah, sure. 326 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,120 The swastikas on the doors had a real impact on Josh, and what 327 00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:44,840 lies inside is even more striking. 328 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,840 How do you feel now seeing this? 329 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,080 I mean this is more in red now. Oh, right. 330 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,800 So this is called a rangoli and I guess it's an expression of worship. 331 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:03,840 And you'll find it at times of really big religious occasions or ceremonies. 332 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,440 The swastika represents prosperity and good luck and wealth. 333 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:16,000 How do you feel like in terms of the shape or is it something that's different? 334 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,080 Obviously to me, it's the most anti-Jewish symbol that 335 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:24,560 I've ever seen in terms of the death of a lot of people in my religion. 336 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,360 And er...I mean it seems a little bit less harsh. 337 00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:30,680 OK, yeah, because of the curl? Yeah, I think so. 338 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,120 You see, when I was growing up, 339 00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:36,960 I always had this positive view of the swastika, 340 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:42,040 so I never understood how it could mean something, you know, that it may mean to you. 341 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,240 As Josh's visit draws to an end, he's got a lot to think about. 342 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,520 I was taken aback on the doors but now you talk about it a little bit more, 343 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,880 and that's why I think dialogue is really, really important. 344 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,200 We talk a lot about what separates us, but hopefully we can 345 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,960 use this symbol to come together and talk about the things that we have in common. 346 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:12,120 Avni and Josh's experiences of the swastika are worlds apart, 347 00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:16,360 but their meeting has started to break down long-held prejudice. 348 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,320 It's still very, very strange and a little alien to me, 349 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:27,520 but it's actually changed some of my opinions about the swastika. 350 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,400 Maybe it can be used for good. 351 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,160 I think Josh's visit is like a first step in the Jewish community 352 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,680 coming to understand that the swastika means so many different things. 353 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:49,440 He understood that it doesn't necessarily have to mean one thing, universally. 354 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,720 It can mean different things for different people. 355 00:27:55,400 --> 00:28:01,480 I don't know whether the Jewish community will feel the same way as I do, 356 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,600 but you know what, hopefully we can really start to educate ourselves that this symbol 357 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,680 can be used for something positive. 358 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:19,160 Perhaps this ancient Hindu symbol, which for so long has held such different meanings 359 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,680 for these two religious communities, might actually bring them closer together. 360 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,960 And as Hindus across Britain prepare to celebrate Diwali, 361 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,240 the festival that marks the banishment of darkness and the coming of light, 362 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:40,680 maybe it's a first step towards the swastika being reclaimed for good. 363 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,560 I think over time the swastika will be redeemed in Europe. 364 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,520 Just because something in one context looks bad doesn't mean we slam it. 365 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,160 We have to look at the bigger picture always. 366 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,680 So the change will come, it'll just take time. 367 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:02,000 Wouldn't it be nice if one day there are people who saw the swastika being used in public 368 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,040 and said, "oh that's an Indian symbol. 369 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,640 "Hindus use it to signify auspiciousness and blessing." 370 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,560 And when they later come to see the Nazi use of the symbol, 371 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,560 they think, "Gosh that's horrific, that's really inappropriate." 372 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:21,480 If we can get to that point then finally Hitler will really have been defeated. 373 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,120 Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd 34690

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