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1
00:01:14,408 --> 00:01:16,944
The life of a playwright is tough.
2
00:01:17,578 --> 00:01:19,947
It's not easy,
as some people seem to think.
3
00:01:20,547 --> 00:01:23,550
You work hard writing plays,
and nobody puts them on.
4
00:01:24,284 --> 00:01:26,687
You take up other lines of work
to try to make a living...
5
00:01:27,287 --> 00:01:28,889
I became an actor...
6
00:01:29,223 --> 00:01:31,091
...and people don't hire you.
7
00:01:31,558 --> 00:01:34,895
So you just spend your days
doing the errands of your trade.
8
00:01:36,563 --> 00:01:38,499
Today I'd had to be up
by 10.:00 in the morning...
9
00:01:38,966 --> 00:01:40,701
...to make some
important phone calls.
10
00:01:41,168 --> 00:01:44,705
Then I'd gone to the stationery store
to buy envelopes. Then to the Xerox shop.
11
00:01:45,572 --> 00:01:47,174
There were dozens of things to do.
12
00:01:53,247 --> 00:01:55,449
By 5.:00 I'd finally made it
to the post office...
13
00:01:55,983 --> 00:01:57,985
...and mailed off
several copies of my plays...
14
00:01:58,452 --> 00:02:00,387
...meanwhile checking constantly
with my answering service...
15
00:02:00,854 --> 00:02:03,657
...to see if my agent
had called with any acting work.
16
00:02:04,258 --> 00:02:07,194
In the morning, the mailbox
had just been stuffed with bills.
17
00:02:07,828 --> 00:02:09,997
What was I supposed to do?
How was I supposed to pay them?
18
00:02:10,564 --> 00:02:13,066
After all, I was already doing my best.
19
00:02:15,269 --> 00:02:17,237
I've lived in this city all my life.
20
00:02:17,771 --> 00:02:19,873
I grew up on the Upper East Side...
21
00:02:20,407 --> 00:02:23,610
...and when I was 10 years old
I was rich, I was an aristocrat...
22
00:02:24,344 --> 00:02:27,247
...riding around in taxis,
surrounded by comfort...
23
00:02:27,948 --> 00:02:30,484
...and all I thought about
was art and music.
24
00:02:31,084 --> 00:02:35,556
Now I'm 36,
and all I think about is money.
25
00:03:06,186 --> 00:03:07,721
It was now 7.:00...
26
00:03:08,188 --> 00:03:11,191
...and I would have liked nothing better than
to go home and have my girlfriend Debby...
27
00:03:11,859 --> 00:03:14,194
...cook me a nice, delicious dinner.
28
00:03:14,795 --> 00:03:16,864
But for the last several years
our financial circumstances...
29
00:03:17,397 --> 00:03:20,067
...have forced Debby to work
three nights a week as a waitress.
30
00:03:20,667 --> 00:03:23,270
After all, somebody had to
bring in a little money.
31
00:03:24,004 --> 00:03:26,206
So I was on my own.
32
00:03:26,807 --> 00:03:29,943
But the worst thing of all was that I'd been
trapped by an odd series of circumstances...
33
00:03:30,677 --> 00:03:34,615
...into agreeing to have dinner
with a man I'd been avoiding literally for years.
34
00:03:35,482 --> 00:03:37,084
His name was Andr� Gregory.
35
00:03:37,484 --> 00:03:40,153
At one time he'd been
a very close friend of mine...
36
00:03:40,754 --> 00:03:43,090
...as well as my most valued colleague
in the theater.
37
00:03:43,690 --> 00:03:45,626
In fact, he was the man
who had first discovered me...
38
00:03:46,026 --> 00:03:48,795
...and put one of my plays
on the professional stage.
39
00:03:49,429 --> 00:03:52,599
When I'd known Andr�, he'd been at the height
ofhis career as a theater director.
40
00:03:53,367 --> 00:03:55,769
The amazing work he did with his company,
the Manhattan Project...
41
00:03:56,370 --> 00:03:58,972
...had just stunned audiences
throughout the world.
42
00:04:00,841 --> 00:04:03,310
But then something
had happened to Andr�.
43
00:04:03,844 --> 00:04:06,380
He dropped out of the theater.
He sort of disappeared.
44
00:04:06,980 --> 00:04:09,449
For months at a time, his family seemed
only to know that he was traveling...
45
00:04:10,050 --> 00:04:12,152
...in some odd place like Tibet...
46
00:04:12,653 --> 00:04:14,922
...which was really weird
because he loved his wife and children.
47
00:04:15,455 --> 00:04:17,624
He never used to like
to leave home at all.
48
00:04:18,192 --> 00:04:20,994
Or else you'd hear that someone had met him
at a party and he'd been telling people...
49
00:04:21,662 --> 00:04:24,464
...that he talked with trees
or something like that.
50
00:04:25,199 --> 00:04:28,068
Obviously, something terrible
had happened to Andr�.
51
00:04:35,209 --> 00:04:37,177
The whole idea of meeting him
made me very nervous.
52
00:04:37,644 --> 00:04:39,479
I mean, I really wasn't up
for that sort of thing.
53
00:04:40,013 --> 00:04:43,150
I had problems of my own.
I mean, I couldn't help Andr�.
54
00:04:43,851 --> 00:04:45,652
Was I supposed to be a doctor, or what?
55
00:04:49,356 --> 00:04:50,958
- Hello.
- Hello.
56
00:04:52,759 --> 00:04:54,361
- Here you go.
- Thank you.
57
00:04:58,966 --> 00:05:02,369
- Yes, sir.
- Ah, sir, my name is Wallace Shawn.
58
00:05:03,170 --> 00:05:05,239
I'm expected at the table
of Andr� Gregory.
59
00:05:08,175 --> 00:05:09,843
That table will be a moment, sir.
60
00:05:10,244 --> 00:05:12,379
If you like,
you may have a drink at the bar.
61
00:05:31,665 --> 00:05:34,134
- Good evening, sir.
- Uh, could I have a club soda, please?
62
00:05:34,801 --> 00:05:37,271
I'm sorry, sir.
We only serve Source de Pavilion.
63
00:05:37,871 --> 00:05:39,673
Oh, that'd be fine, thank you.
64
00:05:54,955 --> 00:05:57,691
When I'd called Andr�, and he'd suggested
that we meet in this particular restaurant...
65
00:05:58,358 --> 00:06:01,962
I'd been rather surprised, because
Andr�'s taste used to be very ascetic...
66
00:06:02,763 --> 00:06:05,432
...even though people have always known
that he had some money somewhere.
67
00:06:06,033 --> 00:06:08,969
I mean, how the hell else could he have
been flying off to Asia and so on...
68
00:06:09,636 --> 00:06:11,972
...and still have been supporting his family?
69
00:06:14,241 --> 00:06:17,177
The reason I was meeting Andr� was that
an acquaintance of mine, George Grassfield...
70
00:06:17,845 --> 00:06:21,048
...had called me
and just insisted that I had to see him.
71
00:06:21,782 --> 00:06:25,185
Apparently, George had been walking his dog
in an odd section of town the night before...
72
00:06:25,986 --> 00:06:27,654
...and he'd suddenly come upon Andr�...
73
00:06:28,055 --> 00:06:30,991
...leaning against a crumbling old building
and sobbing.
74
00:06:31,658 --> 00:06:33,794
Andr� had explained to George
that he'd just been watching...
75
00:06:34,261 --> 00:06:36,263
...the Ingmar Bergman movie
Autumn Sonata...
76
00:06:36,797 --> 00:06:38,332
...about 25 blocks away...
77
00:06:38,799 --> 00:06:41,602
...and he'd been seized
by a fit of ungovernable crying...
78
00:06:42,402 --> 00:06:44,805
...when the character played
by Ingrid Bergman had said...
79
00:06:45,472 --> 00:06:49,276
"I could always live in my art,
but never in my life. "
80
00:06:55,415 --> 00:06:57,551
Wallyl...
81
00:06:58,085 --> 00:07:00,153
- Wow.
- My God.
82
00:07:04,158 --> 00:07:06,226
I remember, when I first
started working with Andr�'s company...
83
00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,963
I couldn't get over the way the actors
would hug when they greeted each other.
84
00:07:10,697 --> 00:07:13,300
"Wow. Now I'm really in the theater, "
I thought.
85
00:07:13,834 --> 00:07:15,636
Well, you look terrific.
86
00:07:16,170 --> 00:07:18,438
Well, I feel terrible.
87
00:07:21,041 --> 00:07:22,709
Good evening, sir.
Nice to see you again.
88
00:07:23,177 --> 00:07:25,913
Thank you. Good evening.
Ah, I think I'll have a spritzer, if I could.
89
00:07:26,580 --> 00:07:28,182
- Yes, sir.
- Thank you.
90
00:07:30,184 --> 00:07:31,952
I was feeling incredibly nervous.
91
00:07:32,419 --> 00:07:34,388
I wasn't sure I could stick through
an entire meal with him.
92
00:07:34,855 --> 00:07:36,223
Great.
93
00:07:36,590 --> 00:07:38,125
So we talked about this and that.
94
00:07:38,592 --> 00:07:40,460
He told me a few things
aboutJerzy Grotowski...
95
00:07:40,994 --> 00:07:42,529
...the great Polish theater director...
96
00:07:42,996 --> 00:07:45,532
...who was a friend and almost like
a kind of a guru of Andr�'s.
97
00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,202
He'd also dropped out of the theater.
98
00:07:48,669 --> 00:07:51,271
Grotowski was a pretty
unusual character himself.
99
00:07:51,839 --> 00:07:55,042
At one time, he'd been quite fat, then he'd
lost an incredible amount of weight...
100
00:07:55,809 --> 00:07:57,678
...and become very thin
and grown a beard.
101
00:07:58,212 --> 00:08:00,547
- Your table is ready, if you feel like sitting down.
- Oh.
102
00:08:01,081 --> 00:08:02,683
- Oh.
- Yes. Thank you.
103
00:08:10,657 --> 00:08:13,360
I was beginning to realize
that the only way to make this evening bearable...
104
00:08:13,961 --> 00:08:16,296
...would be to ask Andr�
a few questions.
105
00:08:16,864 --> 00:08:19,233
Asking questions always relaxes me.
106
00:08:19,766 --> 00:08:21,702
In fact, I sometimes think
that my secret profession...
107
00:08:22,169 --> 00:08:24,738
...is that I'm a private investigator,
a detective.
108
00:08:25,372 --> 00:08:27,608
I always enjoy finding out about people.
109
00:08:28,242 --> 00:08:32,513
Even if they're in absolute agony,
I always find it very... interesting.
110
00:08:34,848 --> 00:08:38,118
- By the way, is he still thin?
- What?
111
00:08:38,852 --> 00:08:41,855
Grotowski. Is he still thin?
112
00:08:42,589 --> 00:08:44,291
Oh. Absolutely.
113
00:08:48,395 --> 00:08:50,864
Oh, waiter?
Uh, I think we can do without this.
114
00:08:51,465 --> 00:08:53,433
- Yes, sir.
- Thank you.
115
00:08:53,867 --> 00:08:55,469
What about this one?
116
00:08:55,969 --> 00:08:58,539
Seven swimming shrimp.
117
00:09:01,441 --> 00:09:03,110
- Ready for your order?
- Ah, yes.
118
00:09:03,577 --> 00:09:05,946
Uh, the Galuska...
How... How do you prepare that?
119
00:09:06,446 --> 00:09:08,482
Andr� seemed
to know an awful lot about the menu.
120
00:09:09,016 --> 00:09:10,984
- Dumpling with raisins, blanched almonds.
- I didn't understand a word of it.
121
00:09:11,451 --> 00:09:13,220
- Very good, I think.
- Hmm.
122
00:09:13,687 --> 00:09:15,856
No, I... I think I'll have
the Cailles aux Raisin, the quail.
123
00:09:16,356 --> 00:09:18,358
- Very good.
- Oh, quails! I'll have that as well.
124
00:09:18,892 --> 00:09:20,494
- Two. -
Great. - Great!
125
00:09:20,894 --> 00:09:23,163
And then I think, to begin with,
the Terrine de Poissons.
126
00:09:23,697 --> 00:09:25,299
- Yes.
- What is that?
127
00:09:25,699 --> 00:09:28,368
Uh, it's a sort of p�te...
light, made of fish.
128
00:09:28,969 --> 00:09:31,371
- Does it have bones in it?
- No bones.
129
00:09:31,972 --> 00:09:33,707
Perfectly safe.
130
00:09:34,241 --> 00:09:38,111
Well, um...What is
the, um, Bramborov� Pol�vka?
131
00:09:38,979 --> 00:09:42,249
It's a potato soup.
It's quite delicious.
132
00:09:42,983 --> 00:09:44,718
Oh, well, that's great.
I'll have that.
133
00:09:45,252 --> 00:09:47,187
- Thank you very kindly.
- Thank you very much.
134
00:09:50,457 --> 00:09:52,059
Well.
135
00:09:53,460 --> 00:09:55,128
When was the last time
that we saw each other?
136
00:09:55,596 --> 00:09:57,798
So we talked for a while
about my writing and my acting...
137
00:09:58,398 --> 00:09:59,933
...and about my girlfriend, Debby.
138
00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,537
And we talked about his wife, Chiquita,
and his two children, Nicolas and Marina.
139
00:10:04,271 --> 00:10:06,139
And I'd stayed back in New York.
140
00:10:06,673 --> 00:10:09,409
Finally, I got around to asking him
what he'd been up to in the last few years.
141
00:10:10,077 --> 00:10:11,678
Oh, God. I'm just dying to hear it.
142
00:10:12,079 --> 00:10:13,480
- Really?
- Really.
143
00:10:13,881 --> 00:10:16,216
At first, he seemed
a little reluctant to go into it...
144
00:10:16,817 --> 00:10:19,820
...so I just kept asking,
and finally he started to answer.
145
00:10:20,487 --> 00:10:22,623
...conference
on paratheatrical work then.
146
00:10:23,223 --> 00:10:26,360
And, uh, this must have been
about five years ago...
147
00:10:27,094 --> 00:10:30,831
...and, uh, Grotowski and I were walking
along Fifth Avenue and we were talking.
148
00:10:31,698 --> 00:10:34,635
You see, he'd invited me to come
to teach that summer in Poland.
149
00:10:35,302 --> 00:10:38,238
You know, to teach a workshop
to actors and directors and whatever.
150
00:10:38,906 --> 00:10:42,576
And I had told him that I didn't want to come,
because, really, I had nothing left to teach.
151
00:10:43,377 --> 00:10:45,379
I had nothing left to say.
I didn't know anything.
152
00:10:45,846 --> 00:10:47,514
I couldn't teach anything.
153
00:10:47,981 --> 00:10:49,850
Exercises meant nothing to me anymore.
154
00:10:50,250 --> 00:10:52,186
Working on scenes from plays
seemed ridiculous.
155
00:10:52,653 --> 00:10:55,656
I - I didn't know what to do.
I mean, I just couldn't do it.
156
00:10:56,390 --> 00:10:59,793
So he said, " Why don't you tell me anything
you'd like to have if you did a workshop for me.
157
00:11:00,594 --> 00:11:03,330
No matter how outrageous.
And maybe I can give it to you. "
158
00:11:03,997 --> 00:11:06,667
So I said,
"Well, if you could give me...
159
00:11:07,267 --> 00:11:09,736
"40 Jewish women who speak
neither English nor French...
160
00:11:10,270 --> 00:11:12,940
"either women who've been in the theater
for a long time and want to leave it...
161
00:11:13,607 --> 00:11:15,142
"but don't know why...
162
00:11:15,609 --> 00:11:18,278
"or young women who love the theater,
but have never seen a theater they could love.
163
00:11:18,879 --> 00:11:20,881
"And if these women could play
the trumpet or the harp...
164
00:11:21,415 --> 00:11:22,950
...and if I could work in a forest, I'd come. "
165
00:11:24,885 --> 00:11:27,154
A week later, or two weeks later,
he called me from Poland.
166
00:11:27,688 --> 00:11:30,424
And he said, " Well, 40 Jewish women...
that's a little hard to find. "
167
00:11:31,091 --> 00:11:34,428
But he said, " I do have 40 women.
They all pretty much fit the definition. "
168
00:11:35,162 --> 00:11:37,164
And he said, " I also have
some very interesting men...
169
00:11:37,698 --> 00:11:39,366
"but you don't have to work with them.
170
00:11:39,766 --> 00:11:42,169
"These are all people who have in common
the fact that they're questioning the theater.
171
00:11:42,769 --> 00:11:45,305
"They don't all play the trumpet or the harp,
but they all play a musical instrument.
172
00:11:45,906 --> 00:11:47,641
And none of them speak English. "
173
00:11:48,041 --> 00:11:49,710
And he'd found me a forest, Wally.
174
00:11:50,177 --> 00:11:53,780
And the only inhabitants of this forest
were some wild boar and a hermit.
175
00:11:54,581 --> 00:11:56,183
So that was an offer I couldn't refuse.
176
00:11:56,583 --> 00:11:58,185
I had to go.
177
00:11:58,585 --> 00:12:01,855
So, I went to Poland, and it was this
wonderful group of young men and women.
178
00:12:02,589 --> 00:12:05,125
And the forest he had found us
was absolutely magical.
179
00:12:05,659 --> 00:12:07,261
You know, it was a huge forest.
180
00:12:07,661 --> 00:12:09,263
I mean, the trees were so large...
181
00:12:09,663 --> 00:12:13,333
...that four or five people linking their arms
couldn't get their arms around the trees.
182
00:12:14,201 --> 00:12:17,070
So we were camped out beside
the ruins of this tiny little castle...
183
00:12:17,804 --> 00:12:21,475
...and we would eat around this great stone slab
that served as a sort of a table.
184
00:12:22,276 --> 00:12:24,878
And our schedule was that usually
we'd start work around sunset...
185
00:12:25,479 --> 00:12:27,881
...and then generally we'd work
until about 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning.
186
00:12:28,482 --> 00:12:30,484
And then, because the Poles
love to sing and dance...
187
00:12:31,018 --> 00:12:33,687
...we'd sing and dance until about
10:00 or 11:00 in the morning.
188
00:12:34,288 --> 00:12:38,091
And then we'd have our food, which
was generally bread,jam, cheese and tea.
189
00:12:39,026 --> 00:12:41,762
And then we'd sleep
from around noon to sunset.
190
00:12:43,697 --> 00:12:45,365
Now, technically, of course...
191
00:12:45,766 --> 00:12:47,768
Technically, the situation
is a very interesting one...
192
00:12:48,302 --> 00:12:50,637
...because if you find yourself in a forest
with a group of 40 people...
193
00:12:51,171 --> 00:12:54,174
...who don't speak your language,
then all your moorings are gone.
194
00:12:54,975 --> 00:12:56,577
What do you mean exactly?
195
00:12:56,977 --> 00:12:59,246
Well, what we'd do
is just sit there and wait...
196
00:12:59,780 --> 00:13:02,449
...for someone to have
an impulse to do something.
197
00:13:03,050 --> 00:13:05,719
Now, in a way that's... That's something
like a theatrical improvisation.
198
00:13:06,386 --> 00:13:08,922
I mean, you know, if you were a director
working on a play by Chekhov...
199
00:13:09,456 --> 00:13:12,125
...you might have the actors playing
the mother, the son and the uncle...
200
00:13:12,793 --> 00:13:15,729
...all sit around in a room and do
a made-up scene that isn't in the play.
201
00:13:16,396 --> 00:13:17,998
For instance, you might say to them...
202
00:13:18,398 --> 00:13:21,134
"All right. Let's say that it's a rainy
Sunday afternoon on Sorin's estate...
203
00:13:21,802 --> 00:13:23,604
...and you're all trapped
in the drawing room together. "
204
00:13:24,071 --> 00:13:25,739
And then everyone would improvise...
205
00:13:26,206 --> 00:13:29,743
...saying and doing what their character
might say and do in that circumstance.
206
00:13:30,611 --> 00:13:33,947
Except that in this type of improvisation...
the kind we did in Poland...
207
00:13:34,681 --> 00:13:37,017
...the theme is oneself.
208
00:13:37,618 --> 00:13:39,686
So, you follow
the same law of improvisation...
209
00:13:40,220 --> 00:13:42,956
...which is that you do whatever your impulse,
as the character, tells you to do...
210
00:13:43,624 --> 00:13:45,959
...but in this case,
you are the character.
211
00:13:46,493 --> 00:13:49,296
So there's no imaginary situation
to hide behind...
212
00:13:50,030 --> 00:13:52,499
...and there's no other person
to hide behind.
213
00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:55,502
What you're doing, in fact,
is you're asking those same questions...
214
00:13:56,170 --> 00:14:00,240
...that Stanislavsky said the actor should
constantly ask himself as a character:
215
00:14:01,175 --> 00:14:04,111
Who am I? Why am I here?
216
00:14:04,778 --> 00:14:07,781
Where do I come from,
and where am I going?
217
00:14:08,448 --> 00:14:12,052
But instead of applying them to a role,
you apply them to yourself.
218
00:14:12,853 --> 00:14:14,721
- Hmm.
- Or, to look at it a little differently...
219
00:14:15,189 --> 00:14:16,857
...in a way, it's like going
right back to childhood...
220
00:14:17,257 --> 00:14:19,793
...where a group of children simply come
into a room or are brought into a room...
221
00:14:20,394 --> 00:14:22,262
...without toys... And begin to play.
222
00:14:22,663 --> 00:14:25,799
Grown-ups were learning
how to play again.
223
00:14:26,466 --> 00:14:29,670
So, you would, uh,
all sit together somewhere...
224
00:14:30,404 --> 00:14:32,606
...and, uh, you would play in some way.
225
00:14:33,207 --> 00:14:35,676
- But what would you actually do?
- Well, I could give you a good example.
226
00:14:36,410 --> 00:14:39,213
You see, we worked, uh, together
for a week in the city...
227
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:41,548
...before we went off to our forest.
228
00:14:42,015 --> 00:14:43,884
And of course,
Grotowski was there in the city too.
229
00:14:44,418 --> 00:14:46,753
I heard that every night,
he conducted something called a beehive.
230
00:14:47,287 --> 00:14:48,856
I loved the sound of this beehive...
231
00:14:49,289 --> 00:14:51,792
...so a night or two before we were
supposed to go off to the country...
232
00:14:52,392 --> 00:14:54,962
I grabbed him by the collar, and I said,
"Listen, about this beehive.
233
00:14:55,629 --> 00:14:57,297
"You know, I'd kind of like
to participate in one.
234
00:14:57,698 --> 00:15:00,000
Just instinctively I feel it would
be something interesting. "
235
00:15:00,634 --> 00:15:03,103
And he said, " Well, certainly.
In fact, why don't you, with your group...
236
00:15:03,704 --> 00:15:05,839
...lead the beehive
instead of participating in one?"
237
00:15:06,373 --> 00:15:09,643
You know, I... I got very nervous,
you know, and I said, " Well, what is a beehive?"
238
00:15:10,377 --> 00:15:12,579
He said, " Well, a beehive is...
239
00:15:13,113 --> 00:15:15,516
...at 8:00 a hundred strangers
come into a room. "
240
00:15:17,017 --> 00:15:18,986
I said, " Yes?" He said,
"Yes, and whatever happens is a beehive. "
241
00:15:19,453 --> 00:15:22,122
I said, " Yes, but what am I supposed to do?"
He said, " That's up to you. "
242
00:15:22,789 --> 00:15:25,993
I said, " No, no. I really don't want to do this.
I'll just participate. "
243
00:15:26,660 --> 00:15:29,796
And he said,
"No, no. You lead the beehive. "
244
00:15:30,464 --> 00:15:32,132
Well, I was terrified, Wally.
245
00:15:32,599 --> 00:15:35,369
I mean, in a way, I felt on stage.
246
00:15:37,004 --> 00:15:38,872
I did it anyway.
247
00:15:39,473 --> 00:15:41,408
God. Well, tell me about it.
248
00:15:41,875 --> 00:15:45,212
You see, there was this song...
I have a tape of it. I can play it for you one day.
249
00:15:46,113 --> 00:15:48,749
And it's just unbelievably beautiful.
250
00:15:49,416 --> 00:15:53,287
You see, one of the women in our group knew
a few fragments of this song of Saint Francis...
251
00:15:54,221 --> 00:15:56,757
...and it's a song in which you
thank God for your eyes...
252
00:15:57,424 --> 00:16:00,060
...and you thank God for your heart,
and you thank God for your friends...
253
00:16:00,694 --> 00:16:02,362
...and you thank God for your life.
254
00:16:02,830 --> 00:16:05,299
And it, uh... It repeats itself
over and over again.
255
00:16:05,899 --> 00:16:07,467
And this became our theme song.
256
00:16:07,901 --> 00:16:09,570
I really must play this thing
for you one day...
257
00:16:09,970 --> 00:16:13,640
...because you just can't believe that a group
of people who don't know how to sing...
258
00:16:14,508 --> 00:16:17,578
...could create something so beautiful.
259
00:16:18,312 --> 00:16:22,115
So, I decided that when the people
arrived for the beehive...
260
00:16:23,016 --> 00:16:25,319
...that our group would already be there
singing this very beautiful song...
261
00:16:25,853 --> 00:16:29,056
...and that we would simply sing it
over and over again.
262
00:16:29,790 --> 00:16:33,794
One of the people decided to bring
her very large teddy bear, you know.
263
00:16:34,695 --> 00:16:36,363
Well, she's a little afraid of this event.
264
00:16:36,797 --> 00:16:38,732
And somebody wanted
to bring a... A sheet.
265
00:16:39,199 --> 00:16:41,468
And somebody else wanted
to bring a large bowl of water...
266
00:16:42,002 --> 00:16:43,871
...in case people got hot or thirsty.
267
00:16:44,271 --> 00:16:46,206
And somebody suggested
that we have candles...
268
00:16:46,673 --> 00:16:50,110
...that there be no artificial light,
but candlelight.
269
00:16:50,878 --> 00:16:53,013
And I remember watching people
preparing for this evening.
270
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,349
Of course, there was no makeup,
and there were no costumes...
271
00:16:55,816 --> 00:16:57,951
...but it was exactly the way that people
prepare for a performance.
272
00:16:58,452 --> 00:17:01,155
You know, people sort of taking off
their jewelry and their watches...
273
00:17:01,788 --> 00:17:04,358
...and stowing it away
and making sure it's all secure.
274
00:17:05,025 --> 00:17:07,427
And then slowly people arrived,
the way they would arrive at the theater...
275
00:17:08,028 --> 00:17:10,364
...in ones and twos and 10s and 15s
and what have you.
276
00:17:10,864 --> 00:17:13,367
And we were just sitting there,
and we were singing this very beautiful song.
277
00:17:14,001 --> 00:17:16,770
And people started to sit with us
and started to learn the song.
278
00:17:17,437 --> 00:17:21,642
Now, there is, of course,
as in any performance or improvisation...
279
00:17:22,709 --> 00:17:24,711
...instinct for when things
are gonna get boring.
280
00:17:25,179 --> 00:17:28,448
So, at a certain point... It may have taken
an hour to get there, an hour and a half...
281
00:17:29,183 --> 00:17:32,519
I suddenly grabbed this teddy bear
and threw it in the air...
282
00:17:33,253 --> 00:17:36,256
...at which 140 or 130 people
suddenly exploded.
283
00:17:36,990 --> 00:17:39,526
You know, it was like
a... A Jackson Pollack painting, you know.
284
00:17:40,060 --> 00:17:43,730
Human beings exploded out of this tight
little circle that was singing the song.
285
00:17:44,598 --> 00:17:47,000
And before I knew it,
there were two circles, dancing, you know...
286
00:17:47,601 --> 00:17:50,337
...one dancing clockwise,
the other dancing counterclockwise...
287
00:17:51,071 --> 00:17:52,873
...with this rhythm
mostly from the waist down.
288
00:17:53,407 --> 00:17:56,977
In other words, like an American Indian dance,
with this thumping, persistent rhythm.
289
00:18:02,282 --> 00:18:05,085
Now, you could easily see,
'cause we're talking about group trance...
290
00:18:05,686 --> 00:18:09,356
...where the line between something like this
and something like Hitler's Nuremberg rallies...
291
00:18:10,190 --> 00:18:12,025
...is, in a way, a very thin line.
292
00:18:14,695 --> 00:18:18,131
Anyway, after about an hour
of this wild, hypnotic dancing...
293
00:18:18,899 --> 00:18:21,568
Grotowski and I found ourselves sitting opposite
each other in the middle of this whole thing.
294
00:18:22,236 --> 00:18:24,238
And we threw the teddy bear
back and forth.
295
00:18:24,705 --> 00:18:26,773
You know, on one level,
you could say this is childish.
296
00:18:27,374 --> 00:18:29,243
And I gave the teddy bear suck,
suddenly, at my breast.
297
00:18:29,710 --> 00:18:32,312
And then I threw the teddy bear to him,
and he gave it suck at his breast.
298
00:18:32,913 --> 00:18:34,915
And then the teddy bear
was thrown up into the air again...
299
00:18:35,382 --> 00:18:38,118
...at which there was another explosion
of form into... Something.
300
00:18:38,785 --> 00:18:41,121
And these...What was it like?
You know, this is the...
301
00:18:41,655 --> 00:18:44,658
There's something like a kaleidoscope,
like a human kaleidoscope.
302
00:18:45,392 --> 00:18:48,929
The evening was made up
of shiftings of the kaleidoscope.
303
00:18:49,663 --> 00:18:51,331
Now, the only other things
that I remember...
304
00:18:51,798 --> 00:18:53,400
...other than constantly trying
to guide this thing...
305
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,538
...which was always involved with either
movement, rhythm, repetition or song...
306
00:18:58,472 --> 00:19:00,274
Or chanting, because,
uh, two people in my group...
307
00:19:00,674 --> 00:19:02,342
...had brought musical instruments,
a flute and a drum...
308
00:19:02,810 --> 00:19:04,478
...which, of course,
are sacred instruments...
309
00:19:04,878 --> 00:19:07,014
...was that sometimes the room
would break up...
310
00:19:07,481 --> 00:19:10,284
...into six or seven different things
going on at once.
311
00:19:10,884 --> 00:19:13,353
You know, six or seven
different improvisations...
312
00:19:13,887 --> 00:19:17,090
...all of which seemed, in some way,
related to each other.
313
00:19:17,825 --> 00:19:20,561
It was... It was like
a magnificent cobweb.
314
00:19:22,496 --> 00:19:25,899
And at one point, I noticed that Grotowski
was at the center of one group...
315
00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:29,036
...huddled around a bunch of candles
that they'd gathered together.
316
00:19:29,703 --> 00:19:32,306
And like a little child
fascinated by fire...
317
00:19:32,906 --> 00:19:36,310
I saw that he had his hand right in the flame
and was holding it there.
318
00:19:37,110 --> 00:19:39,513
And as I approached his group,
I wondered if I could do it.
319
00:19:40,113 --> 00:19:44,117
I put my left hand in the flame and I found
I could hold it there for as long as I liked...
320
00:19:44,985 --> 00:19:46,987
...and there was no burn
and no pain.
321
00:19:47,521 --> 00:19:50,924
But when I tried to put my right hand in the
flame, I couldn't hold it there for a second.
322
00:19:51,658 --> 00:19:55,796
So Grotowski said, " If it burns,
try to change some little thing in yourself. "
323
00:19:56,663 --> 00:19:59,600
And I tried to do that.
Didn't work.
324
00:20:00,267 --> 00:20:04,071
Then I remember a very, very beautiful
procession with the sheet...
325
00:20:05,005 --> 00:20:07,007
...and there was somebody
being carried below the sheet.
326
00:20:07,474 --> 00:20:10,077
You know, the sheet was like
some great biblical canopy.
327
00:20:10,677 --> 00:20:14,214
And the entire group was weaving
around the room and chanting.
328
00:20:16,283 --> 00:20:18,552
And then at one point,
people were dancing...
329
00:20:19,086 --> 00:20:21,021
...and I was dancing with a girl...
330
00:20:21,488 --> 00:20:23,624
...and suddenly our hands began
vibrating near each other...
331
00:20:24,091 --> 00:20:25,692
...like this...vibrating, vibrating.
332
00:20:26,093 --> 00:20:29,029
And we went down to our knees,
and suddenly I was sobbing in her arms...
333
00:20:29,696 --> 00:20:33,167
...and she was sort of cradling me in her arms,
and then she started to cry too.
334
00:20:34,034 --> 00:20:36,036
And then we... Then we just
hugged each other for a moment.
335
00:20:36,637 --> 00:20:39,306
And, uh, then we joined the dance again.
336
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,843
And then at a certain point,
hours later...
337
00:20:43,510 --> 00:20:45,979
...we returned to the singing
of the song of Saint Francis...
338
00:20:46,580 --> 00:20:48,515
...and that was the end of the beehive.
339
00:20:50,317 --> 00:20:53,787
And then, again, when it was over, it was
just like the theater after a performance.
340
00:20:54,588 --> 00:20:57,257
You know, people sort of put on
their earrings and their wristwatches...
341
00:20:57,925 --> 00:20:59,526
...and we went off
to the railroad station...
342
00:20:59,860 --> 00:21:03,330
...to drink a lot of beer
and have a good dinner.
343
00:21:04,064 --> 00:21:06,400
Oh, and there was one girl,
who wasn't in our group...
344
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,870
...but who just wouldn't leave,
so we took her along with us.
345
00:21:12,272 --> 00:21:13,874
Huh.
346
00:21:19,413 --> 00:21:22,282
God. Well, tell me some of the other things
you did with your group.
347
00:21:23,016 --> 00:21:26,086
Well... Oh, I remember once
when we were in the city...
348
00:21:26,820 --> 00:21:29,623
...we tried doing an improvisation...you know,
the kind that I used to do in New York.
349
00:21:30,290 --> 00:21:32,292
Uh, everybody was supposed to be
on an airplane...
350
00:21:32,826 --> 00:21:35,162
...and they've all learned from the pilot
there's something wrong with the motor.
351
00:21:35,696 --> 00:21:38,098
But what was unusual
about this improvisation...
352
00:21:38,699 --> 00:21:41,768
...was that two people who
participated in it... Fell in love.
353
00:21:42,503 --> 00:21:44,104
They've, in fact, married.
354
00:21:44,505 --> 00:21:46,773
And when we were...
Yeah, out of fear...
355
00:21:47,307 --> 00:21:49,977
...of being on this plane,
they fell in love...
356
00:21:50,644 --> 00:21:52,379
...thinking they were going to die
at any moment.
357
00:21:52,846 --> 00:21:55,916
And when we went to the forest,
these two disappeared...
358
00:21:56,583 --> 00:21:58,585
...because they understood
the... The experiment so well...
359
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,189
...that they realized that to go off together
in the forest was much more important...
360
00:22:02,923 --> 00:22:05,859
...than any kind of experiment
the group could do as a whole.
361
00:22:06,527 --> 00:22:09,263
So, uh, about halfway
through the week...
362
00:22:09,863 --> 00:22:11,732
...we stumbled into
a clearing in the forest...
363
00:22:12,199 --> 00:22:15,068
...and the two of them
were fast asleep in each other's arms.
364
00:22:15,669 --> 00:22:17,938
It was around dawn,
and we put flowers on them...
365
00:22:18,472 --> 00:22:21,074
...to let them know we'd been there,
and then we crept away.
366
00:22:21,675 --> 00:22:24,478
And then on the last day of our stay
in the forest, these two showed up...
367
00:22:25,078 --> 00:22:27,548
...and they shook me by my hands,
and they thanked me very much...
368
00:22:28,081 --> 00:22:30,284
...for the wonderful work
they'd been able to do, you see.
369
00:22:30,818 --> 00:22:33,353
They understood what it was about.
370
00:22:34,021 --> 00:22:36,824
I mean, that, of course, poses
the question of what was it about.
371
00:22:38,826 --> 00:22:41,628
But it has...has something
to do with living.
372
00:22:45,032 --> 00:22:47,234
And then on the final day
of our stay in the forest...
373
00:22:47,835 --> 00:22:49,903
...the whole group did something
so wonderful for me, Wally.
374
00:22:50,504 --> 00:22:52,306
They arranged a christening...
a baptism... For me.
375
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,708
And they filled the castle with flowers.
376
00:22:55,242 --> 00:22:57,244
And it was just a miracle of light...
377
00:22:57,711 --> 00:23:00,981
...because they had literally set up
hundreds of candles and torches.
378
00:23:01,715 --> 00:23:04,051
I mean, no church
could have looked more beautiful.
379
00:23:04,585 --> 00:23:07,187
There was a simple ceremony, and one
of them played the role of my godmother...
380
00:23:07,788 --> 00:23:09,456
...and another played the role
of my godfather.
381
00:23:09,923 --> 00:23:12,926
And I was given a new name.
They called me Yendrush.
382
00:23:13,594 --> 00:23:16,463
And some of the people
took it completely seriously...
383
00:23:17,064 --> 00:23:18,932
...and some of them found it funny.
384
00:23:19,399 --> 00:23:22,069
But, uh, I really felt
that I had a new name.
385
00:23:23,871 --> 00:23:27,074
And then we had an enormous feast,
with blueberries picked from the field...
386
00:23:27,808 --> 00:23:29,877
...and chocolate someone
had gone a great distance to buy...
387
00:23:30,477 --> 00:23:32,079
...and raspberry soup and rabbit stew.
388
00:23:32,613 --> 00:23:35,149
And we sang Polish songs
and Greek songs...
389
00:23:35,682 --> 00:23:38,152
...and everybody danced
for the rest of the night.
390
00:23:38,685 --> 00:23:40,487
- Hmm.
- Oh, I have a picture.
391
00:23:43,423 --> 00:23:45,893
See, this was... Let's see.
392
00:23:47,427 --> 00:23:49,830
Oh, yeah.
This was me in the forest. See?
393
00:23:50,430 --> 00:23:52,566
- God!
- That's what I felt like.
394
00:23:56,103 --> 00:23:58,038
- That's the state I was in.
- God.
395
00:23:59,506 --> 00:24:02,643
Yeah. I remember George, uh, told me
he'd seen you around that time.
396
00:24:03,443 --> 00:24:05,312
He said you looked like
you'd come back from a war.
397
00:24:05,846 --> 00:24:08,649
Yeah, I remember meeting him. He, uh...
He asked me a lot of friendly questions.
398
00:24:09,316 --> 00:24:11,118
I think I called you up, too,
that summer, didn't I?
399
00:24:11,585 --> 00:24:13,187
Huh.
400
00:24:13,587 --> 00:24:16,123
I think I was out of town.
401
00:24:16,723 --> 00:24:19,793
Yeah, well, most people I met thought
there was something wrong with me.
402
00:24:20,527 --> 00:24:23,197
They didn't say that, but I could tell that
that was what they thought.
403
00:24:23,797 --> 00:24:25,532
But...
404
00:24:25,999 --> 00:24:29,937
...you see, what I think
I experienced... was...
405
00:24:30,871 --> 00:24:33,140
...for the first time in my life...
406
00:24:33,674 --> 00:24:35,809
...to know what it means
to be truly alive.
407
00:24:36,276 --> 00:24:37,878
Now, that's very frightening...
408
00:24:38,278 --> 00:24:40,414
...because with that comes
an immediate awareness of death...
409
00:24:40,881 --> 00:24:42,483
'cause they go hand in hand.
410
00:24:42,883 --> 00:24:45,752
You know, the kind of impulse that led to
Walt Whitman, that led to Leaves of Grass.
411
00:24:46,420 --> 00:24:48,489
That feeling of being connected
to everything...
412
00:24:49,022 --> 00:24:50,891
...means to also be connected to death.
413
00:24:51,425 --> 00:24:53,227
And that's pretty scary.
414
00:24:53,694 --> 00:24:57,498
But I really felt as if I were floating
above the ground, not walking.
415
00:24:58,298 --> 00:25:00,501
You know, and I could do things
like go out to the highway...
416
00:25:01,034 --> 00:25:04,238
...and watch the lights go from red to green
and think, " How wonderful. "
417
00:25:05,038 --> 00:25:07,774
And then one day, in the early fall...
418
00:25:08,442 --> 00:25:10,511
I was out in the country,
walking in a field...
419
00:25:11,044 --> 00:25:13,847
...and I suddenly heard a voice
say, "Little Prince. "
420
00:25:14,515 --> 00:25:16,850
Of course, The Little Prince
was a book that I always thought of...
421
00:25:17,451 --> 00:25:18,986
...as disgusting, childish treacle.
422
00:25:19,453 --> 00:25:22,122
But still, I thought, " Well, you know,
if a voice comes to me in a field"...
423
00:25:22,723 --> 00:25:24,658
This was the first voice I had ever heard.
424
00:25:25,125 --> 00:25:26,793
Maybe I should go and read the book.
425
00:25:27,194 --> 00:25:29,129
Now, that same morning
I'd got a letter...
426
00:25:29,596 --> 00:25:31,532
...from a young woman
who'd been in my group in Poland.
427
00:25:31,999 --> 00:25:33,867
And in her letter she'd written,
"You have dominated me. "
428
00:25:34,268 --> 00:25:35,936
You know,
she spoke very awkward English.
429
00:25:36,403 --> 00:25:38,939
So she'd gone to the dictionary,
and she'd crossed out the word " dominated"...
430
00:25:39,606 --> 00:25:41,942
...and she'd said,
"No. The correct word is 'tamed. "'
431
00:25:42,476 --> 00:25:45,145
And then when I went to town
and bought the book and started to read it...
432
00:25:45,813 --> 00:25:49,216
I saw that " taming" was the most
important word in the whole book.
433
00:25:50,017 --> 00:25:53,220
By the end of the book, I was in tears,
I was so moved by the story.
434
00:25:53,887 --> 00:25:56,089
And then I went and tried to write
an answer to her letter...
435
00:25:56,623 --> 00:25:58,292
'cause she'd written me a very long letter.
436
00:25:58,692 --> 00:26:01,562
But I just couldn't find the right words,
so finally I took my hand...
437
00:26:02,229 --> 00:26:04,565
I put it on a piece of paper,
I outlined it with a pen...
438
00:26:05,098 --> 00:26:07,434
...and I wrote in the center something
like, " Your heart is in my hand. "
439
00:26:08,035 --> 00:26:09,436
Something like that.
440
00:26:09,837 --> 00:26:11,505
Then I went over
to my brother's house to swim...
441
00:26:11,905 --> 00:26:13,907
'cause he lives nearby in the country
and he has a pool.
442
00:26:14,441 --> 00:26:16,109
And he wasn't home.
I went into his library...
443
00:26:16,510 --> 00:26:18,979
...and he had bought at an auction
the collected issues of Minotaure.
444
00:26:19,713 --> 00:26:23,383
You know, the surrealist magazine? Oh, it's a great,
great surrealist magazine of the '20s and '30s.
445
00:26:24,251 --> 00:26:26,720
And I never...You know,
I consider myself a bit of a surrealist.
446
00:26:27,321 --> 00:26:29,456
I had never, ever seen
a copy of Minotaure.
447
00:26:29,990 --> 00:26:31,859
And here they all were,
bound, year after year.
448
00:26:32,326 --> 00:26:35,128
So, at random,
I picked one out, I opened it up...
449
00:26:35,796 --> 00:26:38,532
...and there was a full-page reproduction
of the letter " A"...
450
00:26:39,199 --> 00:26:40,934
...from Tenniel's Alice In Wonderland.
451
00:26:41,401 --> 00:26:44,071
And I thought, that...Well, you know,
it's been a day of coincidences...
452
00:26:44,805 --> 00:26:47,074
...but that's not unusual that the surrealists
would have been interested in Alice...
453
00:26:47,608 --> 00:26:49,276
...and I did a play of Alice.
454
00:26:49,676 --> 00:26:53,213
So at random,
I opened to another page...
455
00:26:54,014 --> 00:26:56,950
...and there were four handprints.
456
00:26:57,618 --> 00:27:00,020
One was Andr� Breton,
another was Andr� Derain...
457
00:27:00,621 --> 00:27:02,823
...the third was Andr�...
I've got it written down somewhere.
458
00:27:03,290 --> 00:27:06,560
It's not Malraux. It's, like, someone...
Another of the surrealists.
459
00:27:07,294 --> 00:27:11,298
All A's, and the fourth
was Antoine de Saint-Exup�ry...
460
00:27:12,232 --> 00:27:13,967
...who wrote The Little Prince.
461
00:27:14,434 --> 00:27:16,503
And they'd shown these handprints
to some kind of expert...
462
00:27:17,037 --> 00:27:19,373
...without saying
whose hands they belonged to.
463
00:27:19,907 --> 00:27:23,043
And under Exup�ry's,
it said that he was an artist...
464
00:27:23,844 --> 00:27:25,712
...with very powerful eyes...
465
00:27:26,246 --> 00:27:29,383
...who was a tamer of wild animals.
466
00:27:30,117 --> 00:27:31,919
I thought,
"This is incredible, you know. "
467
00:27:32,452 --> 00:27:35,522
And I looked back to see
when the issue came out.
468
00:27:36,256 --> 00:27:39,459
It came out on the newsstands
May 12, 1934...
469
00:27:40,194 --> 00:27:43,730
...and I was born during the day
of May 11, 1934.
470
00:27:45,532 --> 00:27:49,803
So, well, that's what started me on, uh,
Saint-Exup�ry and The Little Prince.
471
00:27:58,278 --> 00:28:00,414
Now, of course today...
472
00:28:00,881 --> 00:28:03,750
...today I think there's a very fascistic thing
under The Little Prince.
473
00:28:04,418 --> 00:28:06,353
You know, I...
Well, no, I think there's a kind of...
474
00:28:06,820 --> 00:28:11,358
I think a kind of S.S. Totalitarian
sentimentality in there somewhere.
475
00:28:12,292 --> 00:28:14,561
You know, there's something, you know...
that...
476
00:28:15,095 --> 00:28:16,964
...that love of, um...
477
00:28:17,431 --> 00:28:20,968
Well, that masculine love
of a certain kind of oily muscle.
478
00:28:21,835 --> 00:28:24,571
You know what I mean?
I mean, I can't quite put my finger on it.
479
00:28:25,239 --> 00:28:28,242
But I can just imagine
some beautiful S.S. Man...
480
00:28:28,909 --> 00:28:30,577
...loving The Little Prince.
481
00:28:31,044 --> 00:28:33,180
Now, I don't know why, but there's
something wrong with it. It stinks.
482
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,190
Well, didn't George tell me that you were gonna
do a play that was based on The Little Prince?
483
00:28:44,057 --> 00:28:46,727
Hmm. Well, what happened, Wally...
484
00:28:48,395 --> 00:28:49,663
...was that fall I was in New York...
485
00:28:49,997 --> 00:28:52,866
...and I met this young Japanese
Buddhist priest named Kozan...
486
00:28:53,500 --> 00:28:55,602
...and I thought he was Puck
from the Midsummer Night's Dream.
487
00:28:56,136 --> 00:28:57,938
You know,
he had this beautiful, delicate smile.
488
00:28:58,505 --> 00:29:00,140
I thought he was the Little Prince.
489
00:29:00,541 --> 00:29:03,343
So, naturally, I decided
to go off to the Sahara desert...
490
00:29:04,011 --> 00:29:06,847
...to work on The Little Prince
with two actors and this Japanese monk.
491
00:29:07,614 --> 00:29:09,216
You did?
492
00:29:09,616 --> 00:29:13,720
Well, I mean, I was still in a very
peculiar state at that time, Wally.
493
00:29:14,621 --> 00:29:17,491
You know, I would... I would look
in the rearview mirror of my car...
494
00:29:18,125 --> 00:29:20,427
...and see little birds
flying out of my mouth.
495
00:29:22,029 --> 00:29:25,499
And I remember always being
exhausted in that period.
496
00:29:26,300 --> 00:29:29,770
I always felt weak. You know, I really
didn't know what was going on with me.
497
00:29:30,504 --> 00:29:33,774
I would just sit out there all alone
in the country for days...
498
00:29:34,508 --> 00:29:37,177
...and do nothing but write in my diary.
499
00:29:37,845 --> 00:29:40,180
- And I was always thinking about death.
- Huh.
500
00:29:40,714 --> 00:29:42,382
But you went to the Sahara.
501
00:29:42,850 --> 00:29:44,585
Oh,yes, we went off into the desert...
502
00:29:45,018 --> 00:29:46,787
...and we rode through the desert
on camels.
503
00:29:47,254 --> 00:29:48,789
And we rode and we rode.
504
00:29:49,256 --> 00:29:51,258
And then at night we would walk out
under that enormous sky...
505
00:29:51,692 --> 00:29:53,360
...and look at the stars.
506
00:29:53,861 --> 00:29:56,864
I just kept thinking about the same things
that I was always thinking about at home...
507
00:29:57,531 --> 00:29:59,199
...particularly about Chiquita.
508
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,469
In fact, I thought about
just about nothing but my marriage.
509
00:30:05,038 --> 00:30:06,907
And then I remember
one incredibly dark night...
510
00:30:07,407 --> 00:30:10,077
...being at an oasis, and there were
palm trees moving in the wind...
511
00:30:10,677 --> 00:30:13,780
...and I could hear Kozan singing
far away in that beautiful bass voice.
512
00:30:14,481 --> 00:30:16,750
And I tried to follow his voice
along the sand.
513
00:30:19,286 --> 00:30:21,822
You see, I thought he had
something to teach me, Wally.
514
00:30:23,891 --> 00:30:25,559
And sometimes
I would meditate with him.
515
00:30:26,026 --> 00:30:28,428
Sometimes I'd go off
and meditate by myself.
516
00:30:30,297 --> 00:30:32,766
You know,
I would see images of Chiquita.
517
00:30:33,300 --> 00:30:35,269
Once I actually saw her growing old...
518
00:30:35,702 --> 00:30:37,905
...and her hair turning gray
in front of my eyes.
519
00:30:38,405 --> 00:30:42,509
And I would just wail and yell my lungs out
out there on the dunes.
520
00:30:46,446 --> 00:30:49,650
Anyway,
the desert was pretty horrible.
521
00:30:50,450 --> 00:30:51,985
It was pretty cold.
522
00:30:52,452 --> 00:30:55,322
We were searching for something, but we
couldn't tell if we were finding anything.
523
00:30:56,056 --> 00:30:57,724
You know that once Kozan and I...
524
00:30:58,125 --> 00:31:00,194
...we were sitting on a dune,
and we just ate sand.
525
00:31:00,727 --> 00:31:02,729
No, we weren't trying to be funny.
I started, then he started.
526
00:31:03,230 --> 00:31:06,400
We just ate sand and threw up.
That's how desperate we were.
527
00:31:07,134 --> 00:31:10,103
In other words, we didn't know why we were
there. We didn't know what we were looking for.
528
00:31:10,938 --> 00:31:13,440
The entire thing seemed
completely absurd, arid and empty.
529
00:31:14,141 --> 00:31:16,977
It was like, uh...
like a last chance or something.
530
00:31:17,611 --> 00:31:19,546
Huh.
531
00:31:20,013 --> 00:31:21,949
So what happened then?
532
00:31:22,416 --> 00:31:24,751
Well, in those days...
533
00:31:25,319 --> 00:31:27,154
I went completely on impulse.
534
00:31:27,621 --> 00:31:30,324
So on impulse I brought Kozan back
to stay with us in New York...
535
00:31:30,891 --> 00:31:33,861
...after we got back from the Sahara,
and he stayed for six months.
536
00:31:34,495 --> 00:31:37,831
- And he really sort of took over the whole family, in a way.
- What do you mean?
537
00:31:38,665 --> 00:31:42,169
Well, there was certainly a center
missing in the house at the time.
538
00:31:42,903 --> 00:31:45,038
There certainly wasn't a father,
'cause I was always thinking...
539
00:31:45,539 --> 00:31:48,375
...about going off to Tibet
or doing God knows what.
540
00:31:49,042 --> 00:31:51,044
And so he taught the whole family
to meditate...
541
00:31:51,512 --> 00:31:55,048
...and he told them all about Asia and the East
and his monastery and everything.
542
00:31:55,849 --> 00:31:59,520
He really captivated everybody
with an incredible bag of tricks.
543
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,656
He had literally
developed himself, Wally...
544
00:32:03,257 --> 00:32:07,127
...so that he could push on his fingers
and rise off out of his chair.
545
00:32:08,061 --> 00:32:09,730
I mean, he could literally go like this...
546
00:32:10,130 --> 00:32:11,932
You know, push on his fingers
and go into like a headstand...
547
00:32:12,466 --> 00:32:14,201
...and just hold himself there
with two fingers.
548
00:32:14,601 --> 00:32:16,637
Or if Chiquita would suddenly get
a little tension in her neck...
549
00:32:17,137 --> 00:32:19,807
...well, he'd immediately have her down on the
floor, he'd be walking up and down on her back...
550
00:32:20,407 --> 00:32:22,943
...doing these unbelievable massages,
you know.
551
00:32:24,611 --> 00:32:26,280
And the children found him amazing.
552
00:32:26,747 --> 00:32:29,416
I mean, you know, we'd visit friends
who had children...
553
00:32:30,017 --> 00:32:31,752
...and immediately
he'd be playing with these children...
554
00:32:32,252 --> 00:32:33,921
...in a way that, you know, we just can't do.
555
00:32:34,288 --> 00:32:36,557
I mean, those children...
just giggles, giggles, giggles...
556
00:32:37,090 --> 00:32:39,960
...about what this Japanese monk
was doing in these holy robes.
557
00:32:40,627 --> 00:32:43,163
I mean, he was an acrobat,
a ventriloquist...
558
00:32:43,730 --> 00:32:45,833
...a magician, everything.
559
00:32:46,300 --> 00:32:47,901
You know,
the amazing thing was that...
560
00:32:48,335 --> 00:32:50,304
I don't think he had any interest
in children whatsoever.
561
00:32:50,838 --> 00:32:52,639
None at all.
I don't think he liked them.
562
00:32:53,106 --> 00:32:54,908
I mean, you know,
when he stayed with us...
563
00:32:55,309 --> 00:32:57,578
...in the first week, really, the kids
were just googly-eyed over him.
564
00:32:58,111 --> 00:33:00,581
But then a couple of weeks later,
Chiquita and I could be out...
565
00:33:01,114 --> 00:33:03,650
...and Marina could have flu
or a temperature of 104...
566
00:33:04,251 --> 00:33:06,386
...and he wouldn't even go in
and say hello to her.
567
00:33:06,887 --> 00:33:09,723
But he was taking over more and more.
568
00:33:10,424 --> 00:33:12,593
I mean, his own habits
had completely changed.
569
00:33:13,127 --> 00:33:17,097
You know, he started wearing these elegant
Gucci shoes under his white monk's robes.
570
00:33:18,065 --> 00:33:19,733
He was eating huge amounts of food.
571
00:33:20,134 --> 00:33:23,070
I mean, he ate twice as much
as Nicolas ate, you know?
572
00:33:23,737 --> 00:33:25,806
This tiny little Buddhist
when I first met him, you know...
573
00:33:26,340 --> 00:33:28,775
...was eating a little bowl of milk...
hot milk with rice...
574
00:33:29,343 --> 00:33:31,478
...was now eating huge beef.
575
00:33:33,947 --> 00:33:36,216
It was just very strange.
576
00:33:36,717 --> 00:33:39,620
You know, and we had tried working together,
but really our work consisted mostly...
577
00:33:40,287 --> 00:33:44,291
...of my trying to do these incredibly painful
prostrations that they do in the monastery.
578
00:33:45,259 --> 00:33:47,761
You know, so really we hadn't
been working very much.
579
00:33:48,295 --> 00:33:52,833
Anyway, we were out in the country, and
we all went to Christmas mass together.
580
00:33:53,834 --> 00:33:55,669
You know, he was all dressed up
in his Buddhist finery.
581
00:33:56,103 --> 00:33:59,439
And it was one of those... One of those awful,
dreary Catholic churches on Long Island...
582
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,577
...where the priest talks about
communism and birth control.
583
00:34:04,311 --> 00:34:07,581
And as I was sitting there in mass, I was
wondering, " What in the world is going on?"
584
00:34:08,315 --> 00:34:09,983
I mean, here I am. I'm a grown man...
585
00:34:10,450 --> 00:34:12,586
...and there's this strange person living
in the house, and I'm not working...
586
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,056
You know, I was doing nothing
but scribbling a little poetry in my diary.
587
00:34:16,723 --> 00:34:20,494
And I can't get a job teaching anymore,
and I don't know what I want to do.
588
00:34:21,328 --> 00:34:25,933
When all of a sudden a huge creature
appeared, looking at the congregation.
589
00:34:26,934 --> 00:34:30,604
It was about, I'd say, 6'8"...
something like that, you know...
590
00:34:31,405 --> 00:34:33,941
...and it was...
it was half bull, half man...
591
00:34:34,541 --> 00:34:36,210
...and its skin was blue.
592
00:34:36,743 --> 00:34:39,746
It had violets growing out of its eyelids
and poppies growing out of its toenails.
593
00:34:40,414 --> 00:34:43,484
And it just stood there
for the whole mass.
594
00:34:44,218 --> 00:34:46,220
I mean, I could not make
that creature disappear.
595
00:34:46,687 --> 00:34:49,223
You know, I thought, " Oh, well. You know,
I'm just seeing this 'cause I'm bored. "
596
00:34:49,823 --> 00:34:54,161
You know, close my...
I could not make that creature go away.
597
00:34:55,129 --> 00:34:58,365
Okay. Now, I didn't talk with people about it,
because they'd think I was weird...
598
00:34:59,099 --> 00:35:03,704
...but I felt that this creature
was somehow coming to comfort me...
599
00:35:04,705 --> 00:35:07,407
...that somehow
he was appearing to say...
600
00:35:08,108 --> 00:35:11,912
"Well, you may feel low and you might
not be able to create a play right now...
601
00:35:12,713 --> 00:35:16,049
"but look at what can come to you
on Christmas Eve. Hang on, old friend.
602
00:35:16,817 --> 00:35:19,186
"I may seem weird to you,
but on these weird voyages...
603
00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:21,388
"weird creatures appear.
604
00:35:21,822 --> 00:35:25,058
It's part of the journey.
You're okay. Hang in there. "
605
00:35:31,064 --> 00:35:33,066
By the way, uh, did you ever see...
606
00:35:33,500 --> 00:35:36,537
...that play, uh, The Violets are Blue?
607
00:35:39,072 --> 00:35:40,607
No.
608
00:35:41,008 --> 00:35:43,710
Oh, when you mentioned the violets,
it-it reminded me of that.
609
00:35:44,344 --> 00:35:46,747
It-It was about, um, people...
610
00:35:47,347 --> 00:35:49,950
...being, uh, strangled
on a... On a submarine.
611
00:35:50,551 --> 00:35:52,352
Hmm.
612
00:35:56,690 --> 00:36:00,794
Well, so that was...
that was Christmas.
613
00:36:01,695 --> 00:36:03,964
What happened after that?
614
00:36:04,498 --> 00:36:06,967
- Do you really want to hear about all this?
- Yeah.
615
00:36:07,501 --> 00:36:10,604
Well, around that time...
616
00:36:14,441 --> 00:36:17,478
I was beginning to think about going to India.
And Kozan suddenly left one day.
617
00:36:18,245 --> 00:36:21,048
I was beginning to get into a lot
of very strange ideas around that time.
618
00:36:21,715 --> 00:36:25,052
Now, for example, I'd developed this...
Well, I got this idea which I...
619
00:36:25,819 --> 00:36:28,522
Now, it was very appealing to me
at the time, you know...
620
00:36:29,123 --> 00:36:31,892
...which was that I would have a flag,
a large flag...
621
00:36:32,493 --> 00:36:34,528
...and that wherever I worked,
this flag would fly.
622
00:36:35,062 --> 00:36:38,565
Or if we were outside, say, with a group, that
the flag could be the thing we lay on at night...
623
00:36:39,333 --> 00:36:42,469
...and that somehow, between
working on this flag and lying on this flag...
624
00:36:43,270 --> 00:36:44,805
...this flag flying over us...
625
00:36:45,272 --> 00:36:48,475
...that the flag would pick up
vibrations of a kind...
626
00:36:49,343 --> 00:36:51,612
...that would still be in the flag
when I brought it home.
627
00:36:52,146 --> 00:36:54,748
So I went down to meet this flag maker
that I'd heard about.
628
00:36:55,349 --> 00:36:57,017
And you know, there was
this very straightforward-looking guy.
629
00:36:57,417 --> 00:37:01,421
You know, very sweet, really healthy-looking
and everything. Nice big, blond.
630
00:37:02,356 --> 00:37:04,825
And he had a beautiful, clean loft
down in the village with lovely, happy flags.
631
00:37:05,425 --> 00:37:08,295
And I was all into The Little Prince,
and I talked to him about The Little Prince...
632
00:37:08,896 --> 00:37:12,166
...these adventures and everything, how I
needed the flag and what the flag should be.
633
00:37:12,900 --> 00:37:14,835
He seemed to really connect with it.
634
00:37:15,302 --> 00:37:17,437
So, two weeks later, I came back.
635
00:37:17,905 --> 00:37:21,041
He showed me a flag that I thought
was very odd, you know...
636
00:37:21,708 --> 00:37:23,377
'cause I had, you know...
well, you know...
637
00:37:23,844 --> 00:37:26,647
I had expected something
gentle and lyrical.
638
00:37:27,314 --> 00:37:29,249
There was something about this
that was so powerful...
639
00:37:29,716 --> 00:37:31,318
...it was almost overwhelming.
640
00:37:31,718 --> 00:37:33,387
And it did include the Tibetan swastika.
641
00:37:35,322 --> 00:37:37,191
He put a swastika in your flag?
642
00:37:37,658 --> 00:37:39,860
No, it was the Tibetan swastika,
not the Nazi swastika.
643
00:37:40,461 --> 00:37:42,329
It's one of the most ancient
Tibetan symbols.
644
00:37:42,863 --> 00:37:45,332
And it was just strange, you know?
645
00:37:45,933 --> 00:37:48,936
But I brought it home,
because my idea with this flag...
646
00:37:49,670 --> 00:37:51,738
...was that before I left...
you know, before I left for India...
647
00:37:52,272 --> 00:37:55,476
I wanted several people who were close to me
to have this flag in the room for the night...
648
00:37:56,276 --> 00:37:59,079
...to sleep with it, you know, and then
in the morning to sew something into the flag.
649
00:37:59,746 --> 00:38:03,083
So I took the flag into Marina, and I said,
"Hey, look at this. What do you think of this?"
650
00:38:03,817 --> 00:38:06,153
And she said, " What is that? That's awful. "
I said, " It's a flag. "
651
00:38:06,753 --> 00:38:08,088
And she said, " I don't like it. "
652
00:38:08,422 --> 00:38:11,091
I said, " I kind of thought you might like
to spend the night with it, you know. "
653
00:38:11,692 --> 00:38:14,228
But she really thought
the flag was awful.
654
00:38:14,828 --> 00:38:18,432
So then Chiquita threw this party
for me before I left for India...
655
00:38:19,233 --> 00:38:20,968
...and the apartment
was filled with guests.
656
00:38:21,435 --> 00:38:23,971
And at one point Chiquita said,
"The flag, the flag. Where's the flag?"
657
00:38:24,638 --> 00:38:27,908
And I said, " Oh, yeah. The flag. "
And I go and get the flag, and I open it up.
658
00:38:28,709 --> 00:38:31,912
Chiquita goes absolutely white
and runs out of the room and vomits.
659
00:38:32,646 --> 00:38:35,382
So the party just comes to a halt
and breaks up.
660
00:38:36,049 --> 00:38:38,252
And then the next day
I gave it to this young woman...
661
00:38:38,852 --> 00:38:40,988
...who'd been in my group in Poland,
who was now in New York.
662
00:38:41,522 --> 00:38:44,458
I didn't tell her anything
about any of this.
663
00:38:45,125 --> 00:38:47,127
At 5:00 in the morning,
she called me up and she said...
664
00:38:47,661 --> 00:38:49,663
"I gotta come and see you right away. "
I thought, " Oh, God. "
665
00:38:50,130 --> 00:38:53,267
She came up, and she said, " I saw things...
I saw things around this flag.
666
00:38:54,067 --> 00:38:56,537
"Now, I know you're stubborn, and I know
you want to take this thing with you...
667
00:38:57,137 --> 00:38:59,606
"but if you'd follow my advice,
you'd put it in a hole in the ground...
668
00:39:00,274 --> 00:39:02,609
...and burn it and cover it with earth,
cause the devil's in it. "
669
00:39:03,143 --> 00:39:04,745
I never took the flag with me.
670
00:39:05,145 --> 00:39:08,882
In fact, I gave it to her, and, uh,
she... She had a ceremony with it...
671
00:39:09,750 --> 00:39:11,752
...six months later, in France,
with some friends...
672
00:39:12,219 --> 00:39:14,087
...in which, uh, they did burn it.
673
00:39:15,556 --> 00:39:17,491
God.
674
00:39:17,958 --> 00:39:20,694
That's really, really amazing.
675
00:39:22,896 --> 00:39:25,098
So, did you ever go to India?
676
00:39:25,632 --> 00:39:28,368
Oh, yes, I... I went to India
in the spring, Wally...
677
00:39:29,036 --> 00:39:31,104
...and I came back home
feeling all wrong.
678
00:39:31,638 --> 00:39:35,309
I mean, you know, I'd been to India,
and I'd just felt like a tourist.
679
00:39:36,109 --> 00:39:38,445
I'd found nothing.
680
00:39:39,046 --> 00:39:42,983
So I was... I was spending, uh, the summer
on Long Island with my family...
681
00:39:43,851 --> 00:39:46,320
...and I heard about this community
in Scotland called Findhorn...
682
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,857
...where people sang and talked
and meditated with plants.
683
00:39:50,524 --> 00:39:55,129
And it was founded by several rather
middle-class English and Scottish eccentrics.
684
00:39:56,130 --> 00:39:58,132
Some of them intellectuals,
and some of them not.
685
00:39:58,665 --> 00:40:00,667
And I'd heard that they'd
grown things in soil...
686
00:40:01,135 --> 00:40:03,737
...that supposedly nothing can grow in,
'cause it's almost beach soil...
687
00:40:04,471 --> 00:40:07,875
...and that they'd built... Not built... They'd
grown the largest cauliflowers in the world...
688
00:40:08,675 --> 00:40:10,344
...and there are sort of cabbages.
689
00:40:10,744 --> 00:40:13,881
And they've grown trees
that can't grow in the British Isles.
690
00:40:14,681 --> 00:40:16,884
So I went there.
I mean, it is an amazing place, Wally.
691
00:40:17,417 --> 00:40:20,954
I mean, if there are insects
bothering the plants...
692
00:40:21,755 --> 00:40:24,691
...they will talk with the insects
and, you know, make an agreement...
693
00:40:25,359 --> 00:40:28,762
...by which they'll set aside a special patch
of vegetables just for the insects...
694
00:40:29,496 --> 00:40:31,298
...and then the insects
will leave the main part alone.
695
00:40:31,698 --> 00:40:33,367
- Huh.
- Things like that.
696
00:40:33,834 --> 00:40:35,836
And everything they do
they do beautifully.
697
00:40:36,303 --> 00:40:38,639
I mean, the buildings just shine.
698
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,576
And I mean, for instance, the icebox,
the stove, the car... They all have names.
699
00:40:43,310 --> 00:40:45,179
And since you wouldn't treat Helen,
the icebox...
700
00:40:45,646 --> 00:40:47,648
...with any less respect
than you would Margaret, your wife...
701
00:40:48,115 --> 00:40:51,318
...you know, you make sure that Helen is as clean
as Margaret, or treated with equal respect.
702
00:40:54,321 --> 00:40:58,125
And when I was there, Wally,
I remember being in the woods...
703
00:40:58,926 --> 00:41:02,796
...and I would look at a leaf,
and I would actually see that thing...
704
00:41:03,664 --> 00:41:06,333
...that is alive in that leaf.
705
00:41:06,934 --> 00:41:09,403
And then I remember just running
through the woods as fast as I could...
706
00:41:10,070 --> 00:41:12,139
...with this incredible laugh
coming out of me...
707
00:41:12,673 --> 00:41:17,010
...and really being in that state,you know,
where laughter and tears seem to merge.
708
00:41:17,945 --> 00:41:19,546
I mean, it absolutely blasted me open.
709
00:41:19,947 --> 00:41:22,549
When I came out of Findhorn,
I was hallucinating nonstop.
710
00:41:23,150 --> 00:41:25,285
I was seeing clouds as creatures.
711
00:41:25,819 --> 00:41:28,021
The people on the airplane
all had animals' faces.
712
00:41:28,555 --> 00:41:31,959
I mean, I was on a trip. It was like being
in a William Blake world suddenly.
713
00:41:32,759 --> 00:41:34,361
Things were exploding.
714
00:41:34,761 --> 00:41:38,365
So immediately I went to Belgrade,
'cause I wanted to talk to Grotowski.
715
00:41:39,099 --> 00:41:41,768
Grotowski and I got together
at midnight in my hotel room...
716
00:41:42,436 --> 00:41:45,372
...and we drank instant coffee
out of the top of my shaving cream...
717
00:41:46,039 --> 00:41:49,376
...and we talked from midnight
until 11:00 the next morning.
718
00:41:50,244 --> 00:41:52,246
- God. What did he say?
- Nothing!
719
00:41:52,713 --> 00:41:54,515
I talked. He didn't say a word.
720
00:41:54,915 --> 00:41:58,051
And...And then I guess really...
721
00:41:59,653 --> 00:42:02,990
...the last big experience of this kind
took place that fall.
722
00:42:03,724 --> 00:42:05,325
It was out at Montauk on Long Island...
723
00:42:05,726 --> 00:42:08,729
...and there were only about nine
of us involved, mostly men.
724
00:42:09,463 --> 00:42:11,932
And we borrowed Dick Avedon's property
out at Montauk.
725
00:42:12,533 --> 00:42:15,202
And the country out there
is like Heathcliff country.
726
00:42:15,869 --> 00:42:17,938
It's absolutely wild.
727
00:42:18,539 --> 00:42:20,541
What we wanted to do was
we wanted to take, you know...
728
00:42:21,074 --> 00:42:22,943
We wanted to take All Souls' Eve,
Halloween...
729
00:42:23,477 --> 00:42:25,345
...and use it as a point of departure
for something.
730
00:42:25,879 --> 00:42:28,682
So each one of us prepared
some sort of event for the others...
731
00:42:29,483 --> 00:42:31,819
...somehow in the spirit
of All Souls' Eve.
732
00:42:32,352 --> 00:42:34,755
But the biggest event
was three of the people...
733
00:42:35,355 --> 00:42:37,357
...kept disappearing
in the middle of the night each night...
734
00:42:37,825 --> 00:42:39,760
...and we knew they were
preparing something big...
735
00:42:40,227 --> 00:42:41,895
...but we didn't know what.
736
00:42:42,362 --> 00:42:45,833
And midnight on Halloween,
under a dark moon, above these cliffs...
737
00:42:46,633 --> 00:42:49,837
...we were all told to gather at the topmost cliff
and that we would be taken somewhere.
738
00:42:50,504 --> 00:42:54,107
And we did.
And we waited, and it was very, very cold.
739
00:42:54,908 --> 00:42:58,045
And then the three of them... Helen, Bill
and Fred... Showed up wearing white.
740
00:42:58,712 --> 00:43:02,182
You know, something they'd made out
of sheets... Looked a little spooky, not funny.
741
00:43:02,916 --> 00:43:06,854
And they took us into the basement of this house
that had burned down on the property.
742
00:43:07,721 --> 00:43:11,058
And in this ruined basement, they had set up
a table with benches they'd made.
743
00:43:11,859 --> 00:43:16,063
And on this table they had laid out paper,
pencils, wine and glasses.
744
00:43:17,064 --> 00:43:21,468
And we were all asked to sit at the table
and to make out our last will and testament.
745
00:43:22,469 --> 00:43:25,339
You know, to think about and write down
whatever our last words were to the world...
746
00:43:26,140 --> 00:43:27,941
...or to somebody we were very close to.
747
00:43:28,542 --> 00:43:30,677
And that's quite a task.
748
00:43:31,278 --> 00:43:34,081
I must have been there for about
an hour and a half or so, maybe two.
749
00:43:34,882 --> 00:43:37,684
And then one at a time they would ask
one of us to come with them...
750
00:43:38,352 --> 00:43:40,020
...and I was one of the last.
751
00:43:40,487 --> 00:43:42,489
And they came for me,
and they put a blindfold on me...
752
00:43:42,956 --> 00:43:44,758
...and they ran me through these fields...
two people.
753
00:43:45,225 --> 00:43:48,629
And they'd found a kind of potting shed...
you know, a kind of shed, on the grounds...
754
00:43:49,429 --> 00:43:52,366
...a little tiny room
that had once had tools in it.
755
00:43:53,033 --> 00:43:55,569
And they took me down the steps,
into this basement...
756
00:43:56,103 --> 00:44:00,240
...and the room was just filled
with harsh white light.
757
00:44:01,108 --> 00:44:04,044
Then they told me to get undressed
and give them all my valuables.
758
00:44:04,711 --> 00:44:06,713
Then they put me on a table,
and they sponged me down.
759
00:44:07,247 --> 00:44:10,984
Well, you know, I just started flashing
on-on-on death camps and secret police.
760
00:44:11,852 --> 00:44:15,055
I don't know what happened to the other people,
but I just started to cry uncontrollably.
761
00:44:15,722 --> 00:44:19,526
Uh, then-then they got me to my feet
and they took photographs of me, naked.
762
00:44:20,327 --> 00:44:22,663
And then naked, again blindfolded,
I was run through these forests...
763
00:44:23,263 --> 00:44:25,933
...and we came to a kind of tent made of sheets,
with sheets on the ground.
764
00:44:26,533 --> 00:44:28,202
And there were all these naked bodies...
765
00:44:28,669 --> 00:44:31,538
...huddling together
for warmth against the cold.
766
00:44:32,339 --> 00:44:34,074
Must have been left there
for about an hour.
767
00:44:34,541 --> 00:44:37,144
And then again, one by one,
one at a time, we were led out.
768
00:44:37,744 --> 00:44:39,413
The blindfold was put on...
769
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,950
...and I felt myself being lowered
onto something like a stretcher.
770
00:44:43,684 --> 00:44:47,754
And the stretcher was carried a long way,
very slowly, through these forests...
771
00:44:48,689 --> 00:44:53,427
...and then I felt myself
being lowered into the ground.
772
00:44:54,428 --> 00:44:57,498
They had, in fact, dug six graves...
773
00:44:58,232 --> 00:45:00,501
...eight feet deep.
774
00:45:01,034 --> 00:45:04,638
And then I felt these pieces of wood
being put on me.
775
00:45:05,439 --> 00:45:08,308
And I cannot tell you, Wally,
what I was going through.
776
00:45:08,909 --> 00:45:11,712
And then the stretcher was lowered
into the grave...
777
00:45:12,312 --> 00:45:13,981
...and then this wood was put on me...
778
00:45:14,448 --> 00:45:16,517
...and then my valuables were put on me,
in my hands.
779
00:45:17,050 --> 00:45:19,319
And they'd taken, you know,
a kind of sheet or canvas...
780
00:45:19,853 --> 00:45:21,922
...and they'd stretched about this much
above my head...
781
00:45:22,456 --> 00:45:24,792
...and then they shoveled dirt
into the grave...
782
00:45:26,527 --> 00:45:30,397
...so that I really had the feeling
of being buried alive.
783
00:45:33,333 --> 00:45:35,669
And after being in the grave
for about half an hour...
784
00:45:36,270 --> 00:45:39,006
I mean, I didn't know how long
I'd be in there...
785
00:45:39,673 --> 00:45:41,742
I was resurrected,
lifted out of the grave...
786
00:45:42,276 --> 00:45:44,278
...blindfold taken off,
and run through these fields.
787
00:45:44,745 --> 00:45:48,415
And we came to a great circle of fire,
with music and hot wine...
788
00:45:49,283 --> 00:45:51,018
...and everyone danced until dawn.
789
00:45:51,485 --> 00:45:54,221
And then at dawn...
790
00:45:54,888 --> 00:45:57,357
...to the best of our ability,
we filled up the graves...
791
00:45:57,958 --> 00:46:00,227
...and went back to New York.
792
00:46:03,764 --> 00:46:06,834
And that was really the last big event.
I mean, that was the end.
793
00:46:07,568 --> 00:46:09,169
I mean, you know, I began to realize...
794
00:46:09,570 --> 00:46:11,839
I just didn't want to do these things
anymore, you know?
795
00:46:12,372 --> 00:46:16,110
I felt sort of becalmed, you know,
like that chapter in Moby Dick...
796
00:46:16,910 --> 00:46:19,446
...where the wind goes out of the sails.
797
00:46:20,114 --> 00:46:22,382
And then last winter, without, uh,
thinking about it very much...
798
00:46:22,916 --> 00:46:26,520
I went to see this agent I know to tell him
I was interested in directing plays again.
799
00:46:27,321 --> 00:46:29,323
Actually,
he seemed a little surprised...
800
00:46:29,857 --> 00:46:32,726
...to see that Rip Van Winkle
was still alive.
801
00:46:38,932 --> 00:46:40,534
Mmm.
802
00:46:40,934 --> 00:46:42,603
God.
803
00:46:43,070 --> 00:46:44,605
I didn't know they were so small.
804
00:46:47,875 --> 00:46:49,610
Well,you know, frankly...
805
00:46:50,077 --> 00:46:52,412
I'm sort of repelled by the whole story,
if you really want to know.
806
00:46:52,946 --> 00:46:54,948
- What?
- Ah, you know...
807
00:46:55,482 --> 00:46:57,151
Who did I think I was, you know?
808
00:46:57,551 --> 00:47:01,355
I mean, that's the story of some kind
of spoiled princess, you know.
809
00:47:02,289 --> 00:47:04,158
Who did I think I was,
the Shah of Iran?
810
00:47:04,691 --> 00:47:08,695
You know, I really wonder if people such
as myself are really not Albert Speer, Wally.
811
00:47:09,563 --> 00:47:13,033
- You know, Hitler's architect, Albert Speer?
- What?
812
00:47:13,834 --> 00:47:16,837
No, I've been thinking a lot about him recently
because, uh, I think I am Speer.
813
00:47:17,571 --> 00:47:20,040
And I think it's time that I was caught
and tried the way he was.
814
00:47:20,774 --> 00:47:22,109
What are you talking about?
815
00:47:22,443 --> 00:47:25,646
Well, you know, he was a very cultivated man,
an architect, an artist, you know...
816
00:47:26,313 --> 00:47:29,183
...so he thought the ordinary rules of life
didn't apply to him either.
817
00:47:32,453 --> 00:47:35,656
I mean, I really feel
that everything I've done...
818
00:47:36,323 --> 00:47:38,459
...is horrific,just horrific.
819
00:47:38,926 --> 00:47:41,462
My God. But why?
820
00:47:42,062 --> 00:47:45,799
You see...You see, I've seen a lot of death
in the last few years, Wally...
821
00:47:46,667 --> 00:47:48,535
...and there's one thing
that's for sure about death...
822
00:47:49,069 --> 00:47:51,138
You do it alone, you see.
That seems quite certain, you see.
823
00:47:51,672 --> 00:47:54,208
That I've seen. That the people
around your bed mean nothing.
824
00:47:54,875 --> 00:47:57,344
Your reviews mean nothing.
Whatever it is, you do it alone.
825
00:47:57,945 --> 00:48:01,348
And so the question is, when I get on my
deathbed, what kind of a person am I gonna be?
826
00:48:02,149 --> 00:48:04,485
And I'm just very dubious about the kind
of person who would have lived his life...
827
00:48:05,085 --> 00:48:06,620
...those last few years the way I did.
828
00:48:07,087 --> 00:48:09,223
Why should you feel that way?
829
00:48:09,756 --> 00:48:13,494
You see, I've had a very rough time
in the last few months, Wally.
830
00:48:14,361 --> 00:48:17,631
Three different people in my family
were in the hospital at the same time.
831
00:48:18,365 --> 00:48:19,967
Then my mother died.
832
00:48:20,367 --> 00:48:22,836
Then Marina had something wrong with her back,
and we were terribly worried about her.
833
00:48:23,437 --> 00:48:26,039
You know, so... So, I mean,
I'm feeling very raw right now.
834
00:48:26,774 --> 00:48:29,376
I mean, uh... I mean, I can't sleep,
my nerves are shot.
835
00:48:29,977 --> 00:48:31,645
I mean, I'm affected by everything.
836
00:48:32,045 --> 00:48:35,449
You know, la-last week I had this really nice
director from Norway over for dinner...
837
00:48:36,250 --> 00:48:38,118
...and he's someone
I've known for years and years...
838
00:48:38,519 --> 00:48:40,387
...and he's somebody
that I think I'm quite fond of.
839
00:48:40,854 --> 00:48:43,524
And I was sitting there just thinking
that he was a pompous, defensive...
840
00:48:44,124 --> 00:48:46,126
...conservative stuffed shirt
who was only interested in the theater.
841
00:48:46,660 --> 00:48:49,596
He was talking and talking. His mother
had been a famous Norwegian comedienne.
842
00:48:50,264 --> 00:48:53,867
I realized he had said " I remember my mother"
at least 400 times during the evening.
843
00:48:54,668 --> 00:48:57,204
And he was telling story after story
about his mother.
844
00:48:57,871 --> 00:49:00,274
You know, I'd heard these stories
20 times in the past.
845
00:49:00,874 --> 00:49:03,076
He was drinking this whole bottle
of bourbon very quietly.
846
00:49:03,677 --> 00:49:05,412
His laugh was so horrible.
847
00:49:05,879 --> 00:49:08,882
You know, I could hear his laugh...
the pain in that laugh, the hollowness.
848
00:49:09,550 --> 00:49:11,552
You know, what being that woman's son
had done to him.
849
00:49:12,085 --> 00:49:15,155
You know, so at a certain point I just had
to ask him to leave... Nicely, you know.
850
00:49:15,889 --> 00:49:18,692
I told him I had to get up early
the next morning, 'cause it was so horrible.
851
00:49:19,359 --> 00:49:21,361
It was just as if he had died
in my living room.
852
00:49:21,895 --> 00:49:25,299
You know, then I went into the bathroom
and cried 'cause I felt I'd lost a friend.
853
00:49:26,100 --> 00:49:27,835
And then after he'd gone,
I turned the television on...
854
00:49:28,235 --> 00:49:30,237
...and there was this guy who had
just won the something-something.
855
00:49:30,771 --> 00:49:33,707
Some sports event... Some kind of a great big
check and some kind of huge silver bottle.
856
00:49:34,374 --> 00:49:36,376
And he, you know... He couldn't stuff
the check in the bottle...
857
00:49:36,844 --> 00:49:39,513
...and he put the bottle in front of his nose
and pretended it was his face.
858
00:49:40,114 --> 00:49:42,049
He wasn't really listening
to the guy who was interviewing him...
859
00:49:42,516 --> 00:49:45,385
...but he was smiling malevolently at his friends,
and I looked at that guy and I thought...
860
00:49:46,053 --> 00:49:49,389
"What a horrible, empty,
manipulative rat. "
861
00:49:50,124 --> 00:49:53,393
Then I thought, " That guy is me. "
862
00:49:54,128 --> 00:49:56,797
Then last night actually, you know,
it was our 20th wedding anniversary...
863
00:49:57,464 --> 00:49:59,333
...and I took Chiquita to see
this show about Billie Holiday.
864
00:49:59,733 --> 00:50:02,669
I looked at these show business people who
know nothing about Billie Holiday, nothing.
865
00:50:03,337 --> 00:50:06,473
You see, they were really kind of,
in a way, intellectual creeps.
866
00:50:07,141 --> 00:50:10,344
And I suddenly had this feeling. I mean, you know I
was just sitting there, crying through most of the show.
867
00:50:11,078 --> 00:50:13,413
And I suddenly had this feeling
I was just as creepy as they were...
868
00:50:13,947 --> 00:50:15,616
...and that my whole life
had been a sham...
869
00:50:16,083 --> 00:50:18,418
...and I didn't have the guts
to be Billie Holiday either.
870
00:50:18,952 --> 00:50:22,089
I mean, I really feel
that I'm just washed up, wiped out.
871
00:50:22,890 --> 00:50:25,092
I feel I've just squandered my life.
872
00:50:29,096 --> 00:50:32,299
Andr�, now, how can you say
something like that?
873
00:50:33,100 --> 00:50:34,635
I mean...
874
00:50:42,776 --> 00:50:47,448
Well, you know, I may be in
a very emotional state right now, Wally...
875
00:50:48,449 --> 00:50:50,984
...but since I've come back home I've just
been finding the world we're living in...
876
00:50:51,518 --> 00:50:53,654
...more and more upsetting.
877
00:50:54,121 --> 00:50:56,590
I mean, last week I went down
to the Public Theater one afternoon.
878
00:50:57,124 --> 00:50:58,992
You know, when I walked in,
I said hello to everybody...
879
00:50:59,460 --> 00:51:01,795
'cause I know them all, and they all know me,
they're always very friendly.
880
00:51:02,329 --> 00:51:05,599
You know that seven or eight people
told me how wonderful I looked?
881
00:51:06,333 --> 00:51:09,269
And then one person... One... A woman
who runs the casting office, said...
882
00:51:09,937 --> 00:51:11,605
"Gee, you look horrible.
Is something wrong?"
883
00:51:12,072 --> 00:51:14,541
Now, she...You know, we started talking.
Of course, I started telling her things.
884
00:51:15,142 --> 00:51:18,412
And she suddenly burst into tears
because an aunt of hers who's 80...
885
00:51:19,279 --> 00:51:22,749
...whom she's very fond of, went into
the hospital for a cataract, which was solved.
886
00:51:23,550 --> 00:51:26,487
But the nurse was so sloppy,
she didn't put the bed rails up...
887
00:51:27,154 --> 00:51:29,756
...and so the aunt fell out of bed
and is now a complete cripple.
888
00:51:30,357 --> 00:51:32,292
So you know, we were talking
about hospitals.
889
00:51:32,759 --> 00:51:35,496
Now, you know, this woman,
because of who she is...
890
00:51:36,163 --> 00:51:38,098
You know, 'cause this had happened
to her very, very recently.
891
00:51:38,565 --> 00:51:41,502
- She could see me with complete clarity.
- Uh-huh.
892
00:51:42,169 --> 00:51:43,837
She didn't know anything
about what I'd been going through.
893
00:51:44,238 --> 00:51:46,440
But the other people, what they saw
was this tan, or this shirt...
894
00:51:46,974 --> 00:51:48,642
...or the fact that the shirt
goes well with the tan.
895
00:51:49,042 --> 00:51:50,644
So they said, " Gee, you look wonderful. "
896
00:51:51,044 --> 00:51:53,781
Now, they're living
in an insane dreamworld.
897
00:51:54,448 --> 00:51:57,117
They're not looking.
That seems very strange to me.
898
00:51:57,718 --> 00:52:00,387
Right, because they just didn't
see anything, somehow...
899
00:52:01,054 --> 00:52:03,924
...except, uh, the few little things
that they wanted to see.
900
00:52:07,528 --> 00:52:11,331
Yeah, you know, it's like what happened
just before my mother died.
901
00:52:12,132 --> 00:52:14,134
You know, we'd gone to the hospital
to see my mother...
902
00:52:14,668 --> 00:52:16,670
...and I went in to see her...
903
00:52:17,137 --> 00:52:20,941
...and I saw this woman who looked as bad
as any survivor of Auschwitz or Dachau.
904
00:52:21,875 --> 00:52:24,945
And I was out in the hall
sort of comforting my father...
905
00:52:25,679 --> 00:52:29,016
...when a doctor who was a specialist
in a problem she had with her arm...
906
00:52:29,750 --> 00:52:32,085
...went into her room
and came out just beaming.
907
00:52:32,686 --> 00:52:35,823
And he said, " Boy, don't we have
a lot of reason to feel great?
908
00:52:36,557 --> 00:52:39,560
Isn't it wonderful
how she's coming along?"
909
00:52:40,294 --> 00:52:44,364
Now, all he saw was the arm.
That's all he saw.
910
00:52:45,299 --> 00:52:48,969
Now, here's another person
who's existing in a dream.
911
00:52:49,770 --> 00:52:51,772
Who, on top of that,
is a kind of butcher...
912
00:52:52,372 --> 00:52:54,174
...who's committing
a kind of familial murder...
913
00:52:54,641 --> 00:52:57,311
...because when he comes out of that room,
he psychically kills us...
914
00:52:57,978 --> 00:52:59,646
...by taking us into a dream world...
915
00:53:00,047 --> 00:53:02,916
...where we become confused
and frightened...
916
00:53:03,584 --> 00:53:06,320
'cause the moment before,
we saw somebody who already looked dead...
917
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,724
...and now here comes a specialist
who tells us they're in wonderful shape.
918
00:53:11,525 --> 00:53:13,794
I mean, they were literally
driving my father crazy.
919
00:53:14,328 --> 00:53:16,930
I mean, you know, here's an 82-year-old man
who's very emotional...
920
00:53:17,531 --> 00:53:20,067
...and you know, and if you go in one moment,
and you see the person's dying...
921
00:53:20,667 --> 00:53:23,203
...and you don't want them to die, and then
a doctor comes out five minutes later...
922
00:53:23,737 --> 00:53:25,405
...and tells you they're in wonderful shape...
923
00:53:25,873 --> 00:53:28,075
I mean, you know, you can go crazy.
924
00:53:28,542 --> 00:53:31,745
- Yeah. I know what you mean.
- I mean, the doctor didn't see my mother.
925
00:53:32,479 --> 00:53:34,548
The people at the Public Theater
didn't see me.
926
00:53:35,082 --> 00:53:37,551
I mean, we're just walking around
in some kind of fog.
927
00:53:38,152 --> 00:53:41,622
I think we're all in a trance.
We're walking around like zombies.
928
00:53:42,356 --> 00:53:45,359
I don't... I don't think we're even aware
of ourselves or our own reaction to things.
929
00:53:46,093 --> 00:53:48,495
We...We're just going around all day
like unconscious machines...
930
00:53:49,096 --> 00:53:51,632
...and meanwhile there's all of this rage
and worry and uneasiness...
931
00:53:52,299 --> 00:53:54,034
...just building up
and building up inside us.
932
00:53:54,501 --> 00:53:56,370
That's right. It just builds up, uh...
933
00:53:56,904 --> 00:53:59,640
...and then it just leaps out
inappropriately.
934
00:54:01,708 --> 00:54:03,844
I mean, I remember
when I was, uh, acting in this play...
935
00:54:04,445 --> 00:54:06,046
...based on The Master and Margarita
by Bulgakov.
936
00:54:06,447 --> 00:54:08,449
And I was playing the part of the cat.
937
00:54:08,982 --> 00:54:10,984
But they had trouble, uh,
making up my cat suit...
938
00:54:11,452 --> 00:54:14,521
...so I didn't get it delivered to me
till the night of the first performance.
939
00:54:15,255 --> 00:54:18,258
Particularly the head... I mean,
I'd never even had a chance to try it on.
940
00:54:18,926 --> 00:54:21,862
And about four of my fellow actors
actually came up to me...
941
00:54:22,529 --> 00:54:24,731
...and they said these things
which I just couldn't help thinking...
942
00:54:25,265 --> 00:54:26,867
...were attempts to destroy me.
943
00:54:27,267 --> 00:54:30,537
You know, one of them said, uh,
"Oh, well, now that head...
944
00:54:31,271 --> 00:54:33,340
"will totally change your hearing
in the performance.
945
00:54:34,141 --> 00:54:36,743
"You may hear everything
completely differently...
946
00:54:37,277 --> 00:54:39,146
"and it may be very upsetting.
947
00:54:39,613 --> 00:54:42,282
"Now, I was once in a performance
where I was wearing earmuffs...
948
00:54:42,883 --> 00:54:46,019
...and I couldn't hear anything
anybody said. "
949
00:54:46,687 --> 00:54:49,823
And then another one said, " Oh, you know,
whenever I wear even a hat on stage...
950
00:54:50,491 --> 00:54:52,092
I tend to faint. "
951
00:54:52,493 --> 00:54:55,028
I mean, those remarks
were just full of hostility...
952
00:54:55,629 --> 00:54:58,432
...because, I mean, if I'd listened to those people,
I would have gone out there on stage...
953
00:54:59,099 --> 00:55:01,435
...and I wouldn't have been able to hear anything,
and I would have fainted.
954
00:55:02,035 --> 00:55:03,704
But the hostility
was completely inappropriate...
955
00:55:04,104 --> 00:55:05,706
...because, in fact,
those people liked me.
956
00:55:06,106 --> 00:55:09,042
I mean, that hostility was just
some feeling that was, you know...
957
00:55:09,710 --> 00:55:12,045
...left over from
some previous experience.
958
00:55:12,646 --> 00:55:15,449
Because somehow
in our social existence today...
959
00:55:16,116 --> 00:55:18,786
...we're only allowed to
express our feelings, uh...
960
00:55:19,453 --> 00:55:21,188
...weirdly and indirectly.
961
00:55:21,655 --> 00:55:23,724
If you express them directly,
everybody goes crazy.
962
00:55:24,191 --> 00:55:26,794
Well, did you express your feelings
about what those people said to you?
963
00:55:27,394 --> 00:55:30,798
No. I mean, I didn't even know
what I felt till I thought about it later.
964
00:55:31,598 --> 00:55:34,468
And I mean, at the most, you know,
in a situation like that, uh...
965
00:55:35,068 --> 00:55:36,937
...even if I had known what I felt...
966
00:55:37,404 --> 00:55:39,673
I might say something,
if I'm really annoyed...
967
00:55:40,207 --> 00:55:43,410
...like, uh, " Oh, yeah.
Well, that's just fascinating...
968
00:55:44,077 --> 00:55:47,214
...and, uh, I probably will
faint tonight,just as you did. "
969
00:55:47,881 --> 00:55:50,350
I do just the same thing myself.
970
00:55:50,884 --> 00:55:53,687
We can't be direct, so we end up
saying the weirdest things.
971
00:55:54,288 --> 00:55:56,957
I mean, I remember a night. It was
a couple of weeks after my mother died.
972
00:55:57,624 --> 00:55:59,159
And I was in pretty bad shape.
973
00:55:59,626 --> 00:56:01,361
And I had dinner with three
relatively close friends...
974
00:56:01,829 --> 00:56:03,497
...two of whom had
known my mother quite well...
975
00:56:03,897 --> 00:56:06,033
...and all three of whom
had known me for years.
976
00:56:06,500 --> 00:56:08,836
You know that we went through that
entire evening without my being able to...
977
00:56:09,436 --> 00:56:11,105
...for a moment,
get anywhere near what...
978
00:56:11,505 --> 00:56:13,307
Not that I wanted to sit
and have this dreary evening...
979
00:56:13,841 --> 00:56:16,176
...in which I was talking about all this pain
that I was going through and everything.
980
00:56:16,710 --> 00:56:18,112
Really, not at all.
981
00:56:18,512 --> 00:56:20,247
But the fact that nobody could say...
982
00:56:20,714 --> 00:56:23,117
"Gee, what a shame about your mother"
or " How are you feeling?"
983
00:56:23,717 --> 00:56:26,453
It was just as if nothing had happened.
They were all making these jokes and laughing.
984
00:56:27,121 --> 00:56:28,789
I got quite crazy, as a matter of fact.
985
00:56:29,189 --> 00:56:31,258
One of these people mentioned
a certain man whom I don't like very much...
986
00:56:31,792 --> 00:56:35,062
...and I started screeching about how
he had just been found in the Bronx River...
987
00:56:35,796 --> 00:56:39,199
...and his penis had dropped off from gonorrhea,
and all kinds of insane things.
988
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:43,937
And later, when I got home, I realized I'd just
been desperate to break through this ice.
989
00:56:44,805 --> 00:56:46,073
Yeah.
990
00:56:46,406 --> 00:56:49,743
I mean, do you realize, Wally, if you brought
that situation into a Tibetan home...
991
00:56:50,477 --> 00:56:53,013
That'd be just so far out. I mean,
they wouldn't be able to understand it.
992
00:56:53,614 --> 00:56:55,616
That would be simply...
simply so weird, Wally.
993
00:56:56,083 --> 00:56:59,353
If four Tibetans came together,
and tragedy had just struck one of the ones...
994
00:57:00,087 --> 00:57:03,957
...and they spent the whole evening going...
995
00:57:04,825 --> 00:57:06,627
I mean,you know,
Tibetans would have looked at that...
996
00:57:07,094 --> 00:57:09,696
...and would have thought that was
the most unimaginable behavior.
997
00:57:10,297 --> 00:57:12,232
- But for us, that's common behavior.
- Mm-hmm.
998
00:57:12,699 --> 00:57:15,836
I mean, really, the... The Africans would have
probably put their spears into all four of us...
999
00:57:16,603 --> 00:57:18,205
'cause it would have driven them crazy.
1000
00:57:18,639 --> 00:57:20,707
They would have thought we were
dangerous animals or something like that.
1001
00:57:21,241 --> 00:57:24,378
- Right.
- I mean, that's absolutely abnormal behavior.
1002
00:57:25,112 --> 00:57:26,947
Is everything all right, gentlemen?
1003
00:57:27,414 --> 00:57:28,982
- Great.
- Yeah.
1004
00:57:33,387 --> 00:57:35,255
But those are
typical evenings for us.
1005
00:57:35,722 --> 00:57:39,193
I mean, we go to dinners and parties
like that all the time.
1006
00:57:39,993 --> 00:57:42,529
These evenings are really
like sort of sickly dreams...
1007
00:57:43,063 --> 00:57:45,199
...because people are talking in symbols.
1008
00:57:45,666 --> 00:57:49,203
Everyone is sort of floating through
this fog of symbols and unconscious feelings.
1009
00:57:50,003 --> 00:57:52,005
No one says what they're
really thinking about.
1010
00:57:52,473 --> 00:57:56,643
Then people will start making these jokes
that are really some sort of secret code.
1011
00:57:57,611 --> 00:57:59,613
Right. Well, what often happens
in some of these evenings...
1012
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,750
...is that these really crazy little fantasies
will just start being played with, you know...
1013
00:58:04,618 --> 00:58:07,154
...and everyone will be talking at once
and sort of saying...
1014
00:58:07,821 --> 00:58:10,958
"Hey, wouldn't it be great if Frank Sinatra
and Mrs. Nixon and blah-blah-blah...
1015
00:58:11,658 --> 00:58:13,761
...were in such and such a situation?"
1016
00:58:14,294 --> 00:58:17,097
You know, always with famous people,
and always sort of grotesque.
1017
00:58:17,831 --> 00:58:19,967
Or people will be talking about
some horrible thing...
1018
00:58:20,501 --> 00:58:24,238
...like... Like, uh, the death of that girl
in the car with Ted Kennedy...
1019
00:58:25,105 --> 00:58:27,074
...and they'll just be
roaring with laughter.
1020
00:58:27,574 --> 00:58:29,643
I mean, it's really amazing.
It's just unbelievable.
1021
00:58:30,177 --> 00:58:34,448
That's the only way anything is expressed,
through these completely insane jokes.
1022
00:58:35,382 --> 00:58:38,051
I mean, I think that's why I never understand
what's going on at a party.
1023
00:58:38,685 --> 00:58:41,321
I'm always completely confused.
1024
00:58:42,022 --> 00:58:45,926
You know, uh, Debby once said,
after one of these New York evenings...
1025
00:58:46,794 --> 00:58:48,729
...she thought she'd traveled
a greater distance...
1026
00:58:49,196 --> 00:58:52,099
...just by journeying from her origins
in the suburbs of Chicago...
1027
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:54,401
...to that New York evening...
1028
00:58:54,802 --> 00:58:57,337
...than her grandmother had traveled
in, uh, making her way...
1029
00:58:58,005 --> 00:59:00,140
...from the steppes of Russia
to the suburbs of Chicago.
1030
00:59:00,674 --> 00:59:02,609
I think that's right.
1031
00:59:04,178 --> 00:59:06,346
You know, it may... it may be, Wally,
that one of the reasons...
1032
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:08,482
...that we don't know
what's going on...
1033
00:59:08,882 --> 00:59:11,285
...is that when we're there at a party,
we're all too busy performing.
1034
00:59:11,885 --> 00:59:12,953
Uh-huh.
1035
00:59:13,287 --> 00:59:16,090
That was one of the reasons
that, uh, Grotowski gave up the theater.
1036
00:59:16,824 --> 00:59:20,227
He just felt that people in their lives now
were performing so well...
1037
00:59:21,028 --> 00:59:23,230
...that performance in the theater
was sort of superfluous...
1038
00:59:23,797 --> 00:59:25,399
...and, in a way, obscene.
1039
00:59:25,766 --> 00:59:27,534
Huh.
1040
00:59:28,102 --> 00:59:30,370
Isn't it amazing
how often a doctor...
1041
00:59:30,871 --> 00:59:33,173
...will live up to our expectation
of how a doctor should look?
1042
00:59:33,707 --> 00:59:36,643
When you see a terrorist on television,
he looks just like a terrorist.
1043
00:59:37,311 --> 00:59:39,379
I mean, we live in a world
in which fathers...
1044
00:59:39,847 --> 00:59:41,715
...or single people, or artists...
1045
00:59:42,182 --> 00:59:44,051
...are all trying to live up
to someone's fantasy...
1046
00:59:44,451 --> 00:59:47,721
...of how a father, or a single person,
or an artist should look and behave.
1047
00:59:48,455 --> 00:59:50,791
They all act as if they know exactly how
they ought to conduct themselves...
1048
00:59:51,391 --> 00:59:52,960
...at every single moment...
1049
00:59:53,393 --> 00:59:55,129
...and they all seem totally self-confident.
1050
00:59:55,596 --> 00:59:57,664
Of course, privately people
are very mixed up about themselves.
1051
00:59:58,198 --> 00:59:59,066
Yeah.
1052
00:59:59,399 --> 01:00:01,201
They don't know what they should
be doing with their lives.
1053
01:00:01,702 --> 01:00:03,437
- They're reading all these self-help books.
- Oh, God!
1054
01:00:04,004 --> 01:00:06,006
I mean, those books are just so touching,
because they show...
1055
01:00:06,607 --> 01:00:09,009
...how desperately curious we all are
to know how all the others of us...
1056
01:00:09,610 --> 01:00:11,145
...are really getting on in life...
1057
01:00:11,612 --> 01:00:13,814
...even though, by performing
these roles all the time...
1058
01:00:14,414 --> 01:00:16,884
...we're just hiding the reality of ourselves
from everybody else.
1059
01:00:17,484 --> 01:00:19,653
I mean, we live in such
ludicrous ignorance of each other.
1060
01:00:20,220 --> 01:00:22,022
We usually don't know
the things we'd like to know...
1061
01:00:22,489 --> 01:00:24,158
...even about our supposedly
closest friends.
1062
01:00:24,625 --> 01:00:26,160
I mean... I mean, you know...
1063
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:28,629
...suppose you're going through
some kind of hell in your own life.
1064
01:00:29,163 --> 01:00:32,032
Well, you would love to know if your friends
have experienced similar things.
1065
01:00:32,699 --> 01:00:34,268
But we just don't dare to ask each other.
1066
01:00:34,668 --> 01:00:36,703
No. It would be like asking
your friend to drop his role.
1067
01:00:37,171 --> 01:00:40,040
I mean, we just put no value at all
on perceiving reality.
1068
01:00:40,641 --> 01:00:43,644
I mean, on the contrary, this incredible
emphasis that we all place now...
1069
01:00:44,378 --> 01:00:46,046
...on our so-called careers...
1070
01:00:46,447 --> 01:00:50,317
...automatically makes perceiving reality
a very low priority...
1071
01:00:51,185 --> 01:00:55,055
...because if your life is organized around
trying to be successful in a career...
1072
01:00:55,856 --> 01:01:00,127
...well, it just doesn't matter what
you perceive or what you experience.
1073
01:01:01,061 --> 01:01:03,864
You can really sort of shut your mind off
for years ahead, in a way.
1074
01:01:04,465 --> 01:01:06,934
You can sort of
turn on the automatic pilot.
1075
01:01:07,468 --> 01:01:10,337
You know,just the way your mother's doctor
had on his automatic pilot...
1076
01:01:10,971 --> 01:01:12,806
...when he went in
and he looked at the arm...
1077
01:01:13,273 --> 01:01:15,275
...and he totally failed
to perceive anything else.
1078
01:01:15,809 --> 01:01:19,146
That's right. Our... Our minds are just
focused on these goals and plans...
1079
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:21,482
...which in themselves
are not reality.
1080
01:01:21,849 --> 01:01:24,618
No. Goals and plans are not...
1081
01:01:25,285 --> 01:01:28,922
I mean, they're... They're fantasy.
They're part of a dream life.
1082
01:01:29,757 --> 01:01:32,659
I mean, you know, it always just
does seem so ridiculous, somehow...
1083
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:36,430
...that everybody has to have
his little... His little goal in life.
1084
01:01:37,197 --> 01:01:40,768
I mean, it's so absurd, in a way, when you
consider that it doesn't matter which one it is.
1085
01:01:41,568 --> 01:01:43,570
Right. And because people's
concentration is on their goals...
1086
01:01:44,037 --> 01:01:46,573
...in their life
they just live each moment by habit.
1087
01:01:47,207 --> 01:01:49,843
Really, like the Norwegian telling
the same stories over and over again.
1088
01:01:50,444 --> 01:01:52,579
- Mm-hmm.
- Life becomes habitual.
1089
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:54,915
And it is today.
1090
01:01:55,382 --> 01:01:57,050
I mean, very few things happen now
like that moment...
1091
01:01:57,451 --> 01:01:59,787
...when Marlon Brando sent the Indian woman
to accept the Oscar...
1092
01:02:00,387 --> 01:02:01,922
...and everything went haywire.
1093
01:02:02,389 --> 01:02:04,358
Things just very rarely
go haywire now.
1094
01:02:04,858 --> 01:02:07,394
And if you're just operating by habit...
1095
01:02:07,995 --> 01:02:10,330
...then you're not really living.
1096
01:02:10,998 --> 01:02:13,133
I mean, you know, in Sanskrit,
the root of the verb " to be"...
1097
01:02:13,667 --> 01:02:15,602
...is the same as " to grow"
or " to make grow. "
1098
01:02:16,036 --> 01:02:17,671
Huh.
1099
01:02:21,408 --> 01:02:22,943
- Do you know about Roc?
- Hmm?
1100
01:02:23,410 --> 01:02:25,145
Oh, well.
1101
01:02:25,612 --> 01:02:27,281
Roc was a wonderful man.
1102
01:02:27,681 --> 01:02:29,483
He was one of the founders
of Findhorn...
1103
01:02:29,950 --> 01:02:33,554
...and he was one of Scotland's...well,
he was Scotland's greatest mathematician...
1104
01:02:34,388 --> 01:02:36,457
...and he was one of the century's
great mathematicians.
1105
01:02:36,957 --> 01:02:41,228
And he prided himself on the fact
that he had no fantasy life, no dream life...
1106
01:02:42,162 --> 01:02:44,398
...nothing to stand be...
no imaginary life...
1107
01:02:44,965 --> 01:02:48,635
...nothing to stand between him
and the direct perception of mathematics.
1108
01:02:49,436 --> 01:02:52,739
And one day when he was in his mid-50s,
he was walking in the gardens of Edinburgh...
1109
01:02:53,574 --> 01:02:55,909
...and he saw a faun.
1110
01:02:56,477 --> 01:02:59,446
The faun was very surprised because fauns
have always been able to see people...
1111
01:03:00,180 --> 01:03:02,316
...but you know,
very few people ever see them.
1112
01:03:02,850 --> 01:03:05,119
You know, uh,
those little imaginary creatures.
1113
01:03:05,652 --> 01:03:07,287
- Not a deer.
- Oh.
1114
01:03:07,654 --> 01:03:10,324
- You call them fauns, don't you?
- I thought a fawn was a baby deer.
1115
01:03:10,991 --> 01:03:13,627
Yeah, well, there's a deer that's called a fawn,
but these are like those little imagi...
1116
01:03:14,261 --> 01:03:16,396
- Oh! The kind that Debussy...
- Yes. Right.
1117
01:03:16,964 --> 01:03:19,833
Well, so he got to know the faun,
and he got to know other fauns...
1118
01:03:20,467 --> 01:03:22,369
...and a series of conversations began...
1119
01:03:22,870 --> 01:03:25,205
...and more and more fauns would
come out every afternoon to meet him.
1120
01:03:25,806 --> 01:03:27,341
And he'd have talks with the fauns.
1121
01:03:27,775 --> 01:03:30,544
Then one day, after a while, when, you know,
they'd really gotten to know him...
1122
01:03:31,145 --> 01:03:33,213
...they asked him
if he would like to meet Pan...
1123
01:03:33,747 --> 01:03:35,482
...because Pan would like to meet him.
1124
01:03:35,949 --> 01:03:37,618
And of course,
Pan was afraid of terrifying him...
1125
01:03:38,085 --> 01:03:40,254
...because he knew
of the Christian misconception...
1126
01:03:40,754 --> 01:03:43,757
...which portrayed Pan as an evil creature,
which he's not.
1127
01:03:44,458 --> 01:03:46,894
But Roc said he would love to meet Pan,
and so they met...
1128
01:03:47,428 --> 01:03:49,696
...and Pan indirectly sent him
on his way on a journey...
1129
01:03:50,364 --> 01:03:53,967
...in which he met the other people
who began Findhorn.
1130
01:03:54,768 --> 01:03:57,304
But Roc used to practice
certain exercises...
1131
01:03:57,971 --> 01:04:00,574
...like, uh, for instance,
if he were right-handed...
1132
01:04:01,141 --> 01:04:03,043
...all today he would do everything
with his left hand.
1133
01:04:03,577 --> 01:04:05,779
All day... Eating, writing,
everything... Opening doors...
1134
01:04:06,380 --> 01:04:08,682
...in order to break the habits of living.
1135
01:04:09,249 --> 01:04:11,385
Because the great danger,
he felt, for him...
1136
01:04:11,852 --> 01:04:14,588
...was to fall into a trance,
out of habit.
1137
01:04:15,255 --> 01:04:19,026
He had a whole series of very simple
exercises that he had invented...
1138
01:04:19,860 --> 01:04:23,330
...just to keep
seeing, feeling, remembering.
1139
01:04:24,198 --> 01:04:25,866
Because you have to learn now.
1140
01:04:26,266 --> 01:04:28,669
It didn't used to be necessary,
but today you have to learn something...
1141
01:04:29,269 --> 01:04:31,004
...like, uh, are you really hungry...
1142
01:04:31,472 --> 01:04:34,074
...or are you just stuffing your face...
1143
01:04:34,675 --> 01:04:36,477
Because that's what you do,
out of habit?
1144
01:04:36,977 --> 01:04:39,113
I mean, you can afford to do it,
so you do it...
1145
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:41,281
...whether you're hungry or not.
1146
01:04:41,615 --> 01:04:43,951
You know, if you go to
the Buddhist Meditation Center...
1147
01:04:44,551 --> 01:04:46,620
...they make you taste
each bite of your food...
1148
01:04:47,154 --> 01:04:50,157
...so it takes two hours...
it's horrible... To eat your lunch.
1149
01:04:50,824 --> 01:04:53,694
But you're conscious
of the taste of your food.
1150
01:04:54,361 --> 01:04:57,097
If you're just eating out of habit,
then you don't taste the food...
1151
01:04:57,765 --> 01:05:00,167
...and you're not conscious of the reality
of what's happening to you.
1152
01:05:00,768 --> 01:05:02,436
You enter the dream world again.
1153
01:05:02,870 --> 01:05:05,773
Now, do you think maybe
we live in this dream world...
1154
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:09,243
...because we do so many things every day
that affect us in ways...
1155
01:05:09,843 --> 01:05:12,713
...that somehow
we're just not aware of?
1156
01:05:13,380 --> 01:05:16,917
I mean, you know, I was thinking,
um, last Christmas...
1157
01:05:17,785 --> 01:05:20,421
Debby and I were given
an electric blanket.
1158
01:05:21,054 --> 01:05:24,958
I can tell you that it is just
such a marvelous advance...
1159
01:05:25,826 --> 01:05:29,663
...over our old way of life, and it is just great.
1160
01:05:30,531 --> 01:05:33,400
But, uh, it is quite different
from not having an electric blanket...
1161
01:05:34,067 --> 01:05:36,470
...and I sometimes sort of wonder,
well, what is it doing to me?
1162
01:05:37,070 --> 01:05:40,073
I mean, I sort of feel, uh,
I'm not sleeping quite in the same way.
1163
01:05:40,774 --> 01:05:42,342
No, you wouldn't be.
1164
01:05:42,743 --> 01:05:45,145
I mean, uh, and my dreams
are sort of different...
1165
01:05:45,779 --> 01:05:48,082
...and I feel a little bit different
when I get up in the morning.
1166
01:05:49,616 --> 01:05:52,553
I wouldn't put an electric blanket on
for anything.
1167
01:05:53,220 --> 01:05:57,157
First, I'd be worried I might get electrocuted.
No, I don't trust technology.
1168
01:05:58,025 --> 01:06:01,028
But I mean, the main thing, Wally,
is that I think that that kind of comfort...
1169
01:06:01,762 --> 01:06:04,431
...just separates you from reality
in a very direct way.
1170
01:06:05,032 --> 01:06:07,301
- You mean...
- I mean, if you don't have that electric blanket...
1171
01:06:07,835 --> 01:06:10,104
...and your apartment is cold
and you need to put on another blanket...
1172
01:06:10,637 --> 01:06:13,507
...or go into the closet and pile up coats
on top of the blankets you have...
1173
01:06:14,174 --> 01:06:15,976
...well, then you know it's cold.
1174
01:06:16,443 --> 01:06:18,245
And that sets up a link of things.
1175
01:06:18,779 --> 01:06:21,682
You have compassion for the per...
Well, is the person next to you cold?
1176
01:06:22,382 --> 01:06:24,184
Are there other people in the world
who are cold?
1177
01:06:24,618 --> 01:06:26,653
What a cold night!
I like the cold.
1178
01:06:27,154 --> 01:06:30,023
My God, I never realized.
I don't want a blanket. It's fun being cold.
1179
01:06:30,657 --> 01:06:33,460
I can snuggle up against you even more
because it's cold.
1180
01:06:34,161 --> 01:06:36,196
All sorts of things occur to you.
1181
01:06:36,864 --> 01:06:39,633
Turn on that electric blanket,
and it's like taking a tranquilizer...
1182
01:06:40,267 --> 01:06:42,336
...or it's like being lobotomized
by watching television.
1183
01:06:42,803 --> 01:06:44,404
I think you enter
the dream world again.
1184
01:06:46,406 --> 01:06:49,009
I mean, what does it do to us, Wally,
living in an environment...
1185
01:06:49,643 --> 01:06:52,980
...where something as massive
as the seasons, or winter, or cold...
1186
01:06:53,781 --> 01:06:55,616
...don't in any way affect us?
1187
01:06:56,016 --> 01:06:57,618
I mean, we're animals, after all.
1188
01:06:58,018 --> 01:06:59,653
I mean, what does that mean?
1189
01:07:00,053 --> 01:07:02,623
I think that means that instead
of living under the sun...
1190
01:07:03,223 --> 01:07:05,492
...and the moon and the sky
and the stars...
1191
01:07:06,026 --> 01:07:08,395
...we're living in a fantasy world
of our own making.
1192
01:07:08,962 --> 01:07:11,698
Yeah, but I mean, I would never
give up my electric blanket, Andr�.
1193
01:07:12,433 --> 01:07:14,668
I mean, because New York
is cold in the winter.
1194
01:07:15,235 --> 01:07:17,905
I mean, our apartment is cold.
It's a difficult environment.
1195
01:07:18,572 --> 01:07:20,374
I mean, our lives
are tough enough as it is.
1196
01:07:20,841 --> 01:07:23,777
I'm not looking for ways to get rid of
the few things that provide relief and comfort.
1197
01:07:24,445 --> 01:07:26,747
I mean, on the contrary,
I'm looking for more comfort...
1198
01:07:27,381 --> 01:07:29,249
...because, uh, the world is very abrasive.
1199
01:07:29,783 --> 01:07:31,752
I mean, uh,
I'm trying to protect myself...
1200
01:07:32,219 --> 01:07:35,255
...because, really, there are these abrasive
beatings to be avoided everywhere you look.
1201
01:07:35,923 --> 01:07:39,259
But, Wally, don't you... Don't you see
that comfort can be dangerous?
1202
01:07:40,060 --> 01:07:42,729
I mean, you like to be comfortable,
and I like to be comfortable too...
1203
01:07:43,330 --> 01:07:46,266
...but comfort can lull you
into a dangerous tranquillity.
1204
01:07:47,935 --> 01:07:50,471
I mean, my mother knew
a woman, Lady Hatfield...
1205
01:07:51,004 --> 01:07:52,806
...who was one of the richest women
in the world...
1206
01:07:53,207 --> 01:07:55,976
...and she died of starvation
because all she would eat was chicken.
1207
01:07:56,610 --> 01:07:58,946
I mean, she just liked chicken, Wally,
and that was all she would eat.
1208
01:07:59,546 --> 01:08:02,082
And actually her body was starving,
but she didn't know it...
1209
01:08:02,616 --> 01:08:05,619
'cause she was quite happy eating her chicken,
and so she finally died.
1210
01:08:06,353 --> 01:08:09,823
See, I honestly believe
that we're all like Lady Hatfield now.
1211
01:08:10,624 --> 01:08:13,894
We're having a lovely, comfortable time
with our electric blankets and our chicken...
1212
01:08:14,628 --> 01:08:17,898
...and meanwhile we're starving because
we're so cut off from contact with reality...
1213
01:08:18,632 --> 01:08:21,802
...that we're not getting any real sustenance,
'cause we don't see the world.
1214
01:08:22,569 --> 01:08:24,104
We don't see ourselves.
1215
01:08:24,571 --> 01:08:26,306
We don't see how our actions
affect other people.
1216
01:08:26,774 --> 01:08:29,309
Have you read Martin Buber's book
On Hasidism?
1217
01:08:29,977 --> 01:08:31,812
- No.
- Well, here's a view of life.
1218
01:08:32,246 --> 01:08:34,748
I mean, he talks about the belief
of the HasidicJews...
1219
01:08:35,315 --> 01:08:36,917
...that there are spirits chained
in everything.
1220
01:08:37,317 --> 01:08:39,753
There are spirits chained in you.
There are spirits chained in me.
1221
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:42,256
Well, there are spirits chained
in this table.
1222
01:08:42,723 --> 01:08:46,827
And that prayer is the action of liberating
these enchained embryo-like spirits...
1223
01:08:47,728 --> 01:08:49,463
...and that every action of ours in life...
1224
01:08:49,930 --> 01:08:52,466
...whether it's, uh,
doing business, or making love...
1225
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:54,668
...or having dinner together,
or whatever...
1226
01:08:55,169 --> 01:08:57,304
...that every action of ours
should be a prayer...
1227
01:08:57,805 --> 01:08:59,339
...a sacrament in the world.
1228
01:08:59,773 --> 01:09:01,942
Now, do you think we're living like that?
1229
01:09:02,409 --> 01:09:04,078
Why do you think
we're not living like that?
1230
01:09:04,545 --> 01:09:07,014
I think it's because if we allowed ourselves
to see what we do every day...
1231
01:09:07,648 --> 01:09:09,316
...we might just find it too nauseating.
1232
01:09:09,750 --> 01:09:11,285
I mean, the way we treat other people.
1233
01:09:11,752 --> 01:09:14,755
You know, every day, several times a day,
I walk into my apartment building.
1234
01:09:15,422 --> 01:09:18,358
The doorman calls me Mr. Gregory,
and I call him Jimmy.
1235
01:09:18,992 --> 01:09:21,628
Already, what's the difference
between that...
1236
01:09:22,229 --> 01:09:24,565
...and the Southern plantation owner
who's got slaves?
1237
01:09:25,165 --> 01:09:27,668
You see, I think that an act of murder
is committed in that moment...
1238
01:09:28,235 --> 01:09:29,903
...when I walk into that building.
1239
01:09:30,370 --> 01:09:33,774
Because here's a dignified, intelligent man...
a man of my own age...
1240
01:09:34,508 --> 01:09:37,511
...and when I call him Jimmy,
then he becomes a child, and I'm an adult...
1241
01:09:38,245 --> 01:09:40,180
...because I can buy my way
into the building.
1242
01:09:40,647 --> 01:09:42,783
Right. That's right.
1243
01:09:43,317 --> 01:09:46,587
I mean, my God,
when I was a Latin teacher...
1244
01:09:47,321 --> 01:09:49,056
I mean, people used to treat me...
1245
01:09:49,523 --> 01:09:51,792
I mean, uh, you know,
if I would go to a party...
1246
01:09:52,326 --> 01:09:54,728
...of professional or literary people...
1247
01:09:55,329 --> 01:09:58,265
I mean, I was just treated, uh,
in the nicest sense of the word...
1248
01:09:58,966 --> 01:10:00,267
...uh, like a dog.
1249
01:10:00,734 --> 01:10:02,402
I mean, in other words,
there was no question...
1250
01:10:02,803 --> 01:10:05,806
...of my being able to participate on
an equal basis in a conversation with people.
1251
01:10:06,507 --> 01:10:08,575
I mean, you know, I'd occasionally
have conversations with people...
1252
01:10:09,143 --> 01:10:11,211
...but then, uh,
when they asked what I did...
1253
01:10:11,745 --> 01:10:13,747
...which would always happen
after about five minutes...
1254
01:10:14,214 --> 01:10:16,083
...uh, you know, their faces...
1255
01:10:16,517 --> 01:10:19,620
Even if they were enjoying the conversation, or
they were flirting with me, or whatever it was...
1256
01:10:20,354 --> 01:10:23,190
...their faces would just have that expression
just like the portcullis crashing down.
1257
01:10:23,824 --> 01:10:26,627
You know, those medieval gates.
They would just walk away.
1258
01:10:27,361 --> 01:10:30,097
I mean, I literally lived like a dog.
1259
01:10:30,831 --> 01:10:33,767
And I mean, uh, when Debby was
working as a secretary, you know...
1260
01:10:34,435 --> 01:10:37,371
...if she would tell people what she did,
they would just go insane.
1261
01:10:38,105 --> 01:10:40,040
I mean, it would be just
as if she'd said, uh...
1262
01:10:40,507 --> 01:10:44,511
"Oh, well, I've been serving a life sentence
recently, uh, for child murdering. "
1263
01:10:46,547 --> 01:10:49,883
I mean, my God, you know, when you talk
about our attitudes toward other people...
1264
01:10:51,785 --> 01:10:53,454
I mean, I think of myself...
1265
01:10:53,921 --> 01:10:57,257
...as just a very decent,
good person, you know...
1266
01:10:57,991 --> 01:10:59,927
...just because I think
I'm reasonably friendly...
1267
01:11:00,394 --> 01:11:02,262
...to most of the people
I happen to meet every day.
1268
01:11:02,763 --> 01:11:04,998
I mean, I really think
of myself quite smugly.
1269
01:11:05,532 --> 01:11:08,068
I just think I'm a perfectly nice guy,
uh, you know...
1270
01:11:08,735 --> 01:11:11,271
...so long as I think of the world
as consisting of, you know...
1271
01:11:11,939 --> 01:11:14,274
...just the small circle of the people
that I know as friends...
1272
01:11:14,808 --> 01:11:17,344
...or the few people that we know
in this little world of our little hobbies...
1273
01:11:17,945 --> 01:11:19,480
...the theater or whatever it is.
1274
01:11:19,913 --> 01:11:22,416
And I'm really quite self-satisfied.
I'm just quite happy with myself.
1275
01:11:23,016 --> 01:11:24,752
I just have no complaint about myself.
1276
01:11:25,219 --> 01:11:26,887
I mean, you know, let's face it.
1277
01:11:27,354 --> 01:11:30,491
I mean, there's a whole enormous world
out there that I just don't ever think about.
1278
01:11:31,191 --> 01:11:34,695
I certainly don't take responsibility
for how I've lived in that world.
1279
01:11:35,496 --> 01:11:37,831
I mean, you know, if I were actually
to sort of confront the fact...
1280
01:11:38,432 --> 01:11:40,167
...that I'm sort of sharing this stage...
1281
01:11:40,734 --> 01:11:42,703
...with-with-with this starving person
in Africa somewhere...
1282
01:11:43,303 --> 01:11:45,339
...well, I wouldn't feel so great
about myself.
1283
01:11:45,906 --> 01:11:49,843
So naturally I just... I just blot all those
people right out of my perception.
1284
01:11:50,744 --> 01:11:53,280
So, of course...
of course, I'm ignoring...
1285
01:11:53,914 --> 01:11:56,650
...a whole section of the real world.
1286
01:11:57,418 --> 01:11:59,386
But frankly, you know...
1287
01:11:59,953 --> 01:12:03,524
...when I write a play, in a way, one of the things
I guess I think I'm trying to do...
1288
01:12:04,324 --> 01:12:06,994
...is I'm trying to bring myself up
against some little bits of reality...
1289
01:12:07,594 --> 01:12:10,130
...and I'm trying to share that, uh,
with an audience.
1290
01:12:12,199 --> 01:12:14,668
I mean... I mean,
of course we all know, uh...
1291
01:12:15,202 --> 01:12:17,337
...the theater is, uh,
in terrible shape today.
1292
01:12:17,805 --> 01:12:21,475
I mean, uh... I mean, at least a few years ago
people who really cared about the theater...
1293
01:12:22,342 --> 01:12:24,211
...used to say, " The theater is dead. "
1294
01:12:24,745 --> 01:12:27,147
And now everybody's redefined
the theater in such a trivial way...
1295
01:12:27,748 --> 01:12:29,283
...that, I mean... I mean, God...
1296
01:12:29,750 --> 01:12:33,220
I know people who are involved with
the theater who go to see things now that...
1297
01:12:34,021 --> 01:12:35,956
I mean, a few years ago
these same people...
1298
01:12:36,423 --> 01:12:38,826
...would have just been embarrassed
to have even seen some of these plays.
1299
01:12:39,426 --> 01:12:41,495
I mean, they would have just shrunk,
you know,just in horror...
1300
01:12:42,029 --> 01:12:43,831
...at the superficiality of these things.
1301
01:12:44,298 --> 01:12:46,500
But now they say,
"Oh, that was pretty good. "
1302
01:12:46,967 --> 01:12:48,635
It's just incredible.
1303
01:12:49,136 --> 01:12:51,672
And I really just find that attitude
unbearable...
1304
01:12:52,306 --> 01:12:55,509
...because I really do think the theater
can do something very important.
1305
01:12:56,210 --> 01:13:00,180
I mean, I do think the theater can help
bring people in contact with reality.
1306
01:13:01,115 --> 01:13:05,018
Now, now, you may not feel that at all.
You may just find that totally absurd.
1307
01:13:07,187 --> 01:13:09,656
Yeah, but, Wally,
don't you see the dilemma?
1308
01:13:10,190 --> 01:13:13,527
You're not taking into account
the period we're living in.
1309
01:13:14,328 --> 01:13:16,063
I mean, of course that's what
the theater should do.
1310
01:13:16,530 --> 01:13:18,198
I mean, I've always felt that.
1311
01:13:18,599 --> 01:13:21,402
You know, when I was a young director,
and I directed the Bacchae at Yale...
1312
01:13:22,136 --> 01:13:24,805
...my impulse, when Pentheus has been
killed by his mother and the Furies...
1313
01:13:25,406 --> 01:13:27,541
...and they pull the tree back,
and they tie him to the tree...
1314
01:13:28,142 --> 01:13:30,878
...and fling him into the air, and he flies
through space and he's killed...
1315
01:13:31,545 --> 01:13:33,947
...and they rip him to shreds
and I guess cut off his head...
1316
01:13:34,481 --> 01:13:37,551
...my impulse was that the thing to do was
to get a head from the New Haven morgue...
1317
01:13:38,285 --> 01:13:39,887
...and pass it around the audience.
1318
01:13:40,287 --> 01:13:42,689
Now, I wanted Agawe
to bring on a real head...
1319
01:13:43,290 --> 01:13:45,292
...and that this head should be
passed around the audience...
1320
01:13:45,826 --> 01:13:48,829
...so that somehow people realized
that this stuff was real, see?
1321
01:13:49,496 --> 01:13:51,698
That it was real stuff.
1322
01:13:52,166 --> 01:13:55,302
- Now, the actress playing Agawe
absolutely refused to do it.
1323
01:13:55,969 --> 01:13:57,771
You know, Gordon Craig
used to talk about...
1324
01:13:58,172 --> 01:14:01,708
...why is there gold or silver in the churches
or something... The great cathedrals...
1325
01:14:02,509 --> 01:14:05,446
...when actors could be wearing
gold and silver?
1326
01:14:06,113 --> 01:14:09,183
And I mean, people who saw Eleonora Duse
in the last couple of years of her life, Wally...
1327
01:14:09,917 --> 01:14:12,719
...people said that is was like
seeing light on stage, or mist...
1328
01:14:13,387 --> 01:14:14,988
...or the essence of something.
1329
01:14:15,389 --> 01:14:17,658
I mean, then when you think
about Bertolt Brecht...
1330
01:14:18,192 --> 01:14:20,794
He somehow created a theater
in which people could observe...
1331
01:14:21,395 --> 01:14:23,197
...that was vastly entertaining
and exciting...
1332
01:14:23,730 --> 01:14:26,200
...but in which the excitement
didn't overwhelm you.
1333
01:14:26,934 --> 01:14:30,404
He somehow allowed you the distance
between the play and yourself...
1334
01:14:31,205 --> 01:14:33,607
...that, in fact, two human beings need
in order to live together.
1335
01:14:34,208 --> 01:14:37,544
You know, the question is whether
the theater now can do for an audience...
1336
01:14:38,278 --> 01:14:41,148
...what Brecht tried to do
or what Craig or Duse tried to do.
1337
01:14:41,815 --> 01:14:43,417
Can it do it now?
1338
01:14:43,817 --> 01:14:46,553
'Cause, you see, I think that
people today are so deeply asleep...
1339
01:14:47,221 --> 01:14:49,490
...that unless, you know, you're putting on
those sort of superficial plays...
1340
01:14:49,957 --> 01:14:51,825
...that just help your audience
to sleep more comfortably...
1341
01:14:52,292 --> 01:14:54,628
...it's very hard to know
what to do in the theater.
1342
01:14:57,164 --> 01:15:01,034
Because, you see, I think that if you
put on serious, contemporary plays...
1343
01:15:01,902 --> 01:15:03,504
...by writers like yourself...
1344
01:15:03,904 --> 01:15:06,173
...you may only be helping to deaden
the audience in a different way.
1345
01:15:06,707 --> 01:15:08,776
What do you mean?
1346
01:15:09,309 --> 01:15:11,044
Well, I mean, Wally...
1347
01:15:11,512 --> 01:15:14,248
...how does it affect an audience
to put on one of these plays...
1348
01:15:14,915 --> 01:15:17,384
...in which you show that people
are totally isolated now...
1349
01:15:17,985 --> 01:15:20,654
...and they can't reach each other,
and their lives are desperate?
1350
01:15:21,321 --> 01:15:24,057
Or how does it affect them to see a play
that shows that our world...
1351
01:15:24,725 --> 01:15:28,195
...is full of nothing but shocking
sexual events, and terror, and violence?
1352
01:15:28,996 --> 01:15:30,931
Does that help to wake up
a sleeping audience?
1353
01:15:31,398 --> 01:15:34,001
See, I don't think so,
'cause I think it's very likely...
1354
01:15:34,601 --> 01:15:37,071
...that the picture of the world that you're
showing them in a play like that...
1355
01:15:37,805 --> 01:15:40,274
...is exactly the picture of the world
they have already.
1356
01:15:40,874 --> 01:15:43,210
I mean, you know, they know
their own lives and relationships...
1357
01:15:43,811 --> 01:15:45,479
...are difficult and painful.
1358
01:15:45,879 --> 01:15:47,614
And if they watch the evening news
on television...
1359
01:15:48,082 --> 01:15:50,751
...well, there what they see
is a terrifying, chaotic universe...
1360
01:15:51,351 --> 01:15:54,688
...full of rapes and murders
and hands cut off by subway cars...
1361
01:15:55,489 --> 01:15:58,425
...and children pushing their parents
out of windows.
1362
01:15:59,093 --> 01:16:01,829
So the play tells them that
their impression of the world is correct...
1363
01:16:02,496 --> 01:16:04,164
...and that there's absolutely no way out.
1364
01:16:04,565 --> 01:16:06,166
There's nothing they can do.
1365
01:16:06,567 --> 01:16:09,036
And they end up feeling
passive and impotent.
1366
01:16:09,570 --> 01:16:11,705
I mean, look... Look, at something
like that christening...
1367
01:16:12,172 --> 01:16:14,108
...that my group arranged for me
in the forest in Poland.
1368
01:16:14,575 --> 01:16:17,111
Well, there was an example of something
that really had all the elements of theater.
1369
01:16:17,711 --> 01:16:20,380
It was worked on carefully.
It was thought about carefully.
1370
01:16:20,981 --> 01:16:22,916
It was done with
exquisite taste and magic.
1371
01:16:23,383 --> 01:16:25,185
And they, in fact, created something...
1372
01:16:25,719 --> 01:16:28,789
...which, in this case, was, in a way,
just for an audience of one...just for me.
1373
01:16:29,523 --> 01:16:32,726
But they created something
that had ritual, love, surprise...
1374
01:16:33,527 --> 01:16:35,062
...denouement,
beginning, a middle and end...
1375
01:16:35,529 --> 01:16:38,265
...and was an incredibly beautiful
piece of theater.
1376
01:16:38,866 --> 01:16:40,734
And the impact that it had
on its audience... On me...
1377
01:16:41,201 --> 01:16:43,137
...was somehow a totally positive one.
1378
01:16:43,604 --> 01:16:45,672
It didn't deaden me.
It brought me to life.
1379
01:16:48,942 --> 01:16:50,878
Yeah, but I mean, are you saying
that it's impossible...
1380
01:16:51,345 --> 01:16:54,815
I mean, uh... I mean...
I mean, uh, isn't it a little upsetting...
1381
01:16:55,549 --> 01:16:58,752
...to come to the conclusion that there's
no way to wake people up anymore...
1382
01:16:59,486 --> 01:17:03,090
...except to involve them in some kind
of a strange, uh, christening in Poland...
1383
01:17:03,891 --> 01:17:06,093
...or some kind of a strange experience
on top of Mount Everest?
1384
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:10,164
I mean, uh, because, uh,
you know that the awful thing is...
1385
01:17:11,098 --> 01:17:12,833
...if you really say that it's-it's necessary...
1386
01:17:13,367 --> 01:17:15,502
...to, uh, take everybody to, uh, Everest...
1387
01:17:15,969 --> 01:17:19,306
...it's really tough, because everybody
can't be taken to Everest.
1388
01:17:20,107 --> 01:17:22,776
I mean, there must have been periods in history
when it would have been possible...
1389
01:17:23,377 --> 01:17:25,779
...to, uh, save the patient
through less drastic measures.
1390
01:17:26,380 --> 01:17:28,515
I mean, there must have been periods
when in order to give people...
1391
01:17:29,116 --> 01:17:30,784
...a strong or meaningful experience...
1392
01:17:31,185 --> 01:17:33,654
...you wouldn't actually have to
take them to Everest.
1393
01:17:34,321 --> 01:17:36,190
But you do now.
In some way or other, you do now.
1394
01:17:36,723 --> 01:17:39,059
You know, there was a time when you
could have just, for instance, written...
1395
01:17:39,593 --> 01:17:42,396
I don't know,
uh, Sense and Sensibility byJane Austen.
1396
01:17:43,063 --> 01:17:46,066
And I'm sure the people who read it had
a pretty strong experience. I'm sure they did.
1397
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:49,069
I mean, all right, now you're saying
that people today wouldn't get it.
1398
01:17:49,536 --> 01:17:52,539
Maybe that's true. But I mean, isn't there
any kind of writing or any kind of a play...
1399
01:17:53,273 --> 01:17:55,342
I mean, isn't it still legitimate
for writers...
1400
01:17:55,876 --> 01:17:58,612
...to try to portray reality
so that people can see it?
1401
01:17:59,279 --> 01:18:02,616
I mean, really, tell me, why do we
require a trip to Mount Everest...
1402
01:18:03,350 --> 01:18:05,285
...in order to be able to perceive
one moment of reality?
1403
01:18:05,753 --> 01:18:08,088
I mean... I mean, is Mount Everest
more real than New York?
1404
01:18:08,689 --> 01:18:10,424
I mean, isn't New York real?
1405
01:18:10,891 --> 01:18:14,294
I mean, you see, I think if you
could become fully aware...
1406
01:18:15,095 --> 01:18:17,898
...of what existed in the cigar store
next door to this restaurant...
1407
01:18:18,699 --> 01:18:20,234
I think it would just
blow your brains out.
1408
01:18:20,701 --> 01:18:22,770
I mean... I mean, isn't there
just as much reality to be perceived...
1409
01:18:23,303 --> 01:18:24,972
...in a cigar store
as there is on Mount Everest?
1410
01:18:25,372 --> 01:18:26,707
I mean, what do you think?
1411
01:18:27,107 --> 01:18:29,309
I think that not only is there nothing
more real about Mount Everest...
1412
01:18:29,910 --> 01:18:31,578
I think there's nothing that different,
in a certain way.
1413
01:18:31,979 --> 01:18:34,047
I mean, because reality
is uniform, in a way...
1414
01:18:34,581 --> 01:18:36,250
...so that if your...
if your perceptions are...
1415
01:18:36,717 --> 01:18:39,052
I mean, if your own mechanism
is operating correctly...
1416
01:18:39,586 --> 01:18:42,322
...it would become irrelevant to go
to Mount Everest, and sort of absurd...
1417
01:18:42,990 --> 01:18:45,325
...because, I mean... it just...
I mean, of course, on some level, I mean...
1418
01:18:45,859 --> 01:18:48,862
...obviously it's very different
from a cigar store on 7 th Avenue.
1419
01:18:49,596 --> 01:18:52,266
- But I mean...
- Well, I agree with you, Wally.
1420
01:18:52,866 --> 01:18:55,069
But the problem is that people
can't see the cigar store now.
1421
01:18:55,669 --> 01:18:57,671
I mean, things don't affect people
the way they used to.
1422
01:18:58,138 --> 01:19:00,140
I mean, it may very well be
that 10 years from now...
1423
01:19:00,674 --> 01:19:03,010
...people will pay $10,000 in cash
to be castrated...
1424
01:19:03,544 --> 01:19:05,746
...just in order to be affected by something.
1425
01:19:07,748 --> 01:19:10,350
Well, why...why do you think that is?
I mean, why is that?
1426
01:19:10,951 --> 01:19:14,755
I mean, is it just because people
are lazy today, or they're bored?
1427
01:19:15,556 --> 01:19:18,158
I mean, are we just
like bored, spoiled children...
1428
01:19:18,759 --> 01:19:20,894
...who've just been lying
in the bathtub all day...
1429
01:19:21,361 --> 01:19:23,297
...just playing with their plastic duck...
1430
01:19:23,764 --> 01:19:26,567
...and now they're just thinking,
"Well, what can I do?"
1431
01:19:28,702 --> 01:19:31,038
Okay. Yes. We're bored.
1432
01:19:31,572 --> 01:19:33,173
We're all bored now.
1433
01:19:33,574 --> 01:19:35,375
But has it every occurred to you, Wally,
that the process...
1434
01:19:35,909 --> 01:19:37,978
...that creates this boredom
that we see in the world now...
1435
01:19:38,445 --> 01:19:42,116
...may very well be a self-perpetuating,
unconscious form of brainwashing...
1436
01:19:42,983 --> 01:19:45,652
...created by a world totalitarian government
based on money...
1437
01:19:46,253 --> 01:19:48,522
...and that all of this is much more dangerous
than one thinks...
1438
01:19:49,056 --> 01:19:51,392
...and it's not just a question
of individual survival, Wally...
1439
01:19:51,925 --> 01:19:53,927
...but that somebody who's bored
is asleep...
1440
01:19:54,461 --> 01:19:57,064
...and somebody who's asleep
will not say no?
1441
01:19:57,731 --> 01:20:00,000
See, I keep meeting these people...
I mean, uh,just a few days ago...
1442
01:20:00,667 --> 01:20:02,269
I met this man whom I greatly admire.
1443
01:20:02,669 --> 01:20:04,605
He's a Swedish physicist.
Gustav Bj�rnstrand.
1444
01:20:05,072 --> 01:20:07,141
And he told me that he
no longer watches television...
1445
01:20:07,674 --> 01:20:10,077
...he doesn't read newspapers,
and he doesn't read magazines.
1446
01:20:10,677 --> 01:20:12,546
He's completely
cut them out of his life...
1447
01:20:13,080 --> 01:20:16,817
...because he really does feel that we're living
in some kind of Orwellian nightmare now...
1448
01:20:17,684 --> 01:20:21,021
...and that everything that you hear now
contributes to turning you into a robot.
1449
01:20:22,756 --> 01:20:25,759
And when I was at Findhorn, I met
this extraordinary English tree expert...
1450
01:20:26,493 --> 01:20:28,228
...who had devoted his life
to saving trees.
1451
01:20:28,695 --> 01:20:30,697
Just got back from Washington,
lobbying to save the redwoods.
1452
01:20:31,165 --> 01:20:33,567
He's 84 years old,
and he always travels with a backpack...
1453
01:20:34,168 --> 01:20:35,769
'cause he never knows
where he's gonna be tomorrow.
1454
01:20:36,170 --> 01:20:38,639
And when I met him at Findhorn,
he said to me, " Where are you from?"
1455
01:20:39,239 --> 01:20:41,842
I said, " New York. " He said, " Ah, New York.
Yes, that's a very interesting place.
1456
01:20:42,443 --> 01:20:45,712
Do you know a lot of New Yorkers who keep talking
about the fact that they want to leave, but never do?"
1457
01:20:46,447 --> 01:20:48,649
And I said, " Oh, yes. " And he said,
"Why do you think they don't leave?"
1458
01:20:49,183 --> 01:20:52,453
I gave him different banal theories.
He said, " Oh, I don't think it's that way at all. "
1459
01:20:53,120 --> 01:20:56,924
He said, " I think that New York is the new
model for the new concentration camp...
1460
01:20:57,725 --> 01:20:59,860
"where the camp has been built
by the inmates themselves...
1461
01:21:00,327 --> 01:21:03,263
"and the inmates are the guards, and they
have this pride in this thing they've built.
1462
01:21:04,064 --> 01:21:05,666
"They've built their own prison.
1463
01:21:06,066 --> 01:21:07,668
"And so they exist
in a state of schizophrenia...
1464
01:21:08,135 --> 01:21:09,737
"where they are both guards
and prisoners.
1465
01:21:10,137 --> 01:21:12,940
"And as a result, they no longer have...
having been lobotomized...
1466
01:21:13,540 --> 01:21:15,542
"the capacity to leave
the prison they've made...
1467
01:21:16,076 --> 01:21:18,479
...or to even see it as a prison. "
1468
01:21:19,079 --> 01:21:21,749
And then he went into his pocket,
and he took out a seed for a tree...
1469
01:21:22,349 --> 01:21:23,951
...and he said, " This is a pine tree. "
1470
01:21:24,351 --> 01:21:27,354
He put it in my hand and he said,
"Escape before it's too late. "
1471
01:21:29,289 --> 01:21:31,425
See, actually,
for two or three years now...
1472
01:21:31,959 --> 01:21:35,562
Chiquita and I have had this very unpleasant
feeling that we really should get out.
1473
01:21:36,363 --> 01:21:38,699
We really feel likeJews in Germany
in the late '30s.
1474
01:21:39,299 --> 01:21:40,834
Get out of here.
1475
01:21:41,235 --> 01:21:42,903
Of course, the problem is
where to go.
1476
01:21:43,437 --> 01:21:47,441
'Cause it seems quite obvious that the
whole world is going in the same direction.
1477
01:21:50,244 --> 01:21:52,980
See, I think it's quite possible
that the 1960s...
1478
01:21:53,647 --> 01:21:57,584
...represented the last burst of the human being
before he was extinguished...
1479
01:21:58,452 --> 01:22:00,721
...and that this is the beginning
of the rest of the future, now...
1480
01:22:01,255 --> 01:22:04,591
...and that from now on there'll simply be
all these robots walking around...
1481
01:22:05,325 --> 01:22:07,261
...feeling nothing, thinking nothing.
1482
01:22:07,728 --> 01:22:10,264
And there'll be nobody left almost
to remind them...
1483
01:22:10,864 --> 01:22:13,534
...that there once was a species
called a human being...
1484
01:22:14,268 --> 01:22:15,803
...with feelings and thoughts...
1485
01:22:16,270 --> 01:22:18,672
...and that history and memory
are right now being erased...
1486
01:22:19,273 --> 01:22:21,675
...and soon nobody
will really remember...
1487
01:22:22,276 --> 01:22:24,078
...that life existed on the planet.
1488
01:22:26,080 --> 01:22:29,817
Now, of course, Bj�rnstrand feels
that there's really almost no hope...
1489
01:22:30,684 --> 01:22:33,420
...and that we're probably
going back to a very savage...
1490
01:22:34,088 --> 01:22:36,623
...lawless, terrifying period.
1491
01:22:37,291 --> 01:22:39,293
Findhorn people
see it a little differently.
1492
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:42,096
They're feeling that there'll be
these pockets of light...
1493
01:22:42,629 --> 01:22:44,364
...springing up
in different parts of the world...
1494
01:22:44,832 --> 01:22:48,435
...and that these will be, in a way,
invisible planets on this planet...
1495
01:22:49,236 --> 01:22:51,305
...and that as we, or the world,
grow colder...
1496
01:22:51,839 --> 01:22:54,842
...we can take invisible space journeys
to these different planets...
1497
01:22:55,509 --> 01:22:58,445
...refuel for what it is we need to do
on the planet itself...
1498
01:22:59,113 --> 01:23:01,048
...and come back.
1499
01:23:01,515 --> 01:23:03,851
And it's their feeling that
there have to be centers now...
1500
01:23:04,451 --> 01:23:08,055
...where people can come and reconstruct
a new future for the world.
1501
01:23:08,856 --> 01:23:10,524
And when I was talking
to, uh, Gustav Bj�rnstrand...
1502
01:23:10,924 --> 01:23:13,594
...he was saying that actually these centers
are growing up everywhere now...
1503
01:23:14,261 --> 01:23:16,730
...and that what they're trying to do,
which is what Findhorn was trying to do...
1504
01:23:17,464 --> 01:23:19,199
...and, in a way, what I was trying to do...
1505
01:23:19,733 --> 01:23:21,668
I mean,
these things can't be given names...
1506
01:23:22,136 --> 01:23:25,672
...but in a way, these are all attempts
at creating a new kind of school...
1507
01:23:26,473 --> 01:23:28,275
...or a new kind of monastery.
1508
01:23:28,742 --> 01:23:30,811
And Bj�rnstrand talks about
the concept of" reserves"...
1509
01:23:31,345 --> 01:23:33,614
...islands of safety where history
can be remembered...
1510
01:23:34,148 --> 01:23:36,283
...and the human being
can continue to function...
1511
01:23:36,884 --> 01:23:39,887
...in order to maintain the species
through a dark age.
1512
01:23:42,556 --> 01:23:44,558
In other words, we're talking
about an underground...
1513
01:23:45,025 --> 01:23:47,227
...which did exist in a different way
during the Dark Ages...
1514
01:23:47,761 --> 01:23:50,030
...among the mystical orders
of the church.
1515
01:23:50,564 --> 01:23:52,299
And the purpose of this underground...
1516
01:23:52,766 --> 01:23:57,104
...is to find out how to preserve
the light, life, the culture...
1517
01:23:58,038 --> 01:24:00,908
...how to keep things living.
1518
01:24:01,508 --> 01:24:03,977
You see, I keep thinking
that what we need...
1519
01:24:04,511 --> 01:24:06,847
...is a new language...
1520
01:24:07,448 --> 01:24:09,316
...a language of the heart...
1521
01:24:09,716 --> 01:24:12,986
...a language, as in the Polish forest,
where language wasn't needed.
1522
01:24:13,721 --> 01:24:17,858
Some kind of language between people
that is a new kind of poetry...
1523
01:24:18,726 --> 01:24:22,596
...that's the poetry of the dancing bee
that tells us where the honey is.
1524
01:24:23,464 --> 01:24:25,933
And I think that in order
to create that language...
1525
01:24:26,667 --> 01:24:29,470
...you're going to have to learn how
you can go through a looking glass...
1526
01:24:30,270 --> 01:24:31,805
...into another kind of perception...
1527
01:24:32,272 --> 01:24:36,343
...where you have that sense
of being united to all things...
1528
01:24:37,277 --> 01:24:39,947
...and suddenly you understand everything.
1529
01:24:49,623 --> 01:24:51,492
Are you ready for some dessert?
1530
01:24:51,959 --> 01:24:53,761
Uh, I think I'll just have an espresso.
Thank you.
1531
01:24:54,228 --> 01:24:57,498
- Very good.
- I'll... I'll also have one. Thank you.
1532
01:24:58,232 --> 01:25:00,968
And...And, uh, could I also
have, uh, an amaretto?
1533
01:25:01,635 --> 01:25:03,837
Certainly, sir.
1534
01:25:04,438 --> 01:25:06,173
Thank you.
1535
01:25:06,640 --> 01:25:10,177
You see, Wally, there's this incredible
building that they built at Findhorn.
1536
01:25:10,911 --> 01:25:13,113
And the man who designed it
had never designed anything in his life.
1537
01:25:13,647 --> 01:25:15,315
He wrote children's books.
1538
01:25:15,716 --> 01:25:18,318
And some people wanted it to be
a sort of hall of meditation...
1539
01:25:18,919 --> 01:25:20,921
...and others wanted it to be
a kind of lecture hall.
1540
01:25:21,455 --> 01:25:24,858
But the psychic part of the community
wanted it to serve another function as well...
1541
01:25:25,659 --> 01:25:28,662
...because they wanted it to be a kind
of spaceship which at night could rise up...
1542
01:25:29,329 --> 01:25:31,665
...and let the U.F.O.'s know that this
was a safe place to land...
1543
01:25:32,266 --> 01:25:33,934
...and that they would find friends there.
1544
01:25:34,334 --> 01:25:37,404
So, the problem was...
'cause it needed a massive kind of roof...
1545
01:25:38,138 --> 01:25:40,741
...was how to have a roof
that would stay on the building...
1546
01:25:41,341 --> 01:25:44,144
...but at the same time be able to fly up
at night and meet the flying saucers.
1547
01:25:44,812 --> 01:25:47,147
So, the architect
meditated and meditated...
1548
01:25:47,748 --> 01:25:50,084
...and he finally came up with
the very simple solution...
1549
01:25:50,617 --> 01:25:52,553
...of not actually joining the roof
to the building...
1550
01:25:53,020 --> 01:25:54,621
...which means that it should fall off...
1551
01:25:55,022 --> 01:25:57,691
...because they have great gales
up in northern Scotland.
1552
01:25:58,292 --> 01:26:01,228
So, to keep it from falling off,
he got beach stones from the beach...
1553
01:26:01,895 --> 01:26:04,164
...or we did,
'cause I-I worked on this building...
1554
01:26:04,832 --> 01:26:06,500
...all up and down the roof,
just like that.
1555
01:26:06,900 --> 01:26:10,504
And the idea was that the energy
that would flow from stone to stone...
1556
01:26:11,305 --> 01:26:12,973
...would be so strong, you see...
1557
01:26:13,440 --> 01:26:16,176
...that it would keep the roof down
under any conditions...
1558
01:26:16,844 --> 01:26:20,581
...but at the same time, if the roof needed
to go up, it would be light enough to go up.
1559
01:26:21,448 --> 01:26:24,518
Well...
it works, you see.
1560
01:26:25,252 --> 01:26:27,321
Now, architects
don't know why it works...
1561
01:26:27,855 --> 01:26:29,523
...and it shouldn't work,
'cause it should fall off.
1562
01:26:29,923 --> 01:26:31,525
But it works. It does work.
1563
01:26:31,925 --> 01:26:34,995
The gales blow, and the roof should fall off,
but it doesn't fall off.
1564
01:26:40,334 --> 01:26:41,935
Yep.
1565
01:26:42,336 --> 01:26:43,937
Well, uh...
1566
01:26:45,339 --> 01:26:47,608
...do you want to know
my actual response to all this?
1567
01:26:48,142 --> 01:26:50,077
- Do you want to hear my actual response?
- Yes!
1568
01:26:52,212 --> 01:26:54,148
See, my actual response...
I mean...
1569
01:26:54,615 --> 01:26:58,886
I mean... I mean,
I'm just trying to... To survive, you know?
1570
01:26:59,820 --> 01:27:02,423
I mean,
I'm just trying to earn a living...
1571
01:27:03,023 --> 01:27:05,225
...just trying to pay my rent and my bills.
1572
01:27:05,692 --> 01:27:07,694
I mean, uh...
1573
01:27:08,228 --> 01:27:10,964
Ah, I live my life.
1574
01:27:11,698 --> 01:27:14,234
I enjoy staying home with Debby.
1575
01:27:14,835 --> 01:27:17,237
I'm reading Charlton Heston's
autobiography.
1576
01:27:17,838 --> 01:27:19,173
And that's that.
1577
01:27:19,506 --> 01:27:21,975
I mean, you know...
I mean, occasionally, maybe...
1578
01:27:22,509 --> 01:27:26,180
Debby and I will step outside,
we'll go to a party or something.
1579
01:27:27,047 --> 01:27:29,917
And if I can occasionally get my little talent
together and write a little play...
1580
01:27:30,651 --> 01:27:32,453
...well, then that's just...
that's just wonderful.
1581
01:27:32,920 --> 01:27:35,322
And I mean, I enjoy reading about
other little plays people have written...
1582
01:27:35,923 --> 01:27:38,726
...and reading the reviews of those plays
and what people said about them...
1583
01:27:39,460 --> 01:27:42,129
...and what people said
about what people said.
1584
01:27:42,730 --> 01:27:46,467
And I mean, I have... I have a list of errands
and responsibilities that I keep in a notebook.
1585
01:27:47,334 --> 01:27:49,336
I enjoy going through the notebook...
1586
01:27:49,803 --> 01:27:51,805
...carrying out the responsibilities,
doing the errands...
1587
01:27:52,339 --> 01:27:55,008
...and crossing them off the list.
1588
01:27:55,609 --> 01:27:59,279
And, I mean, I just... I just don't know
how anybody could enjoy anything more...
1589
01:28:00,080 --> 01:28:03,751
...than I enjoy, uh, reading
Charlton Heston's autobiography...
1590
01:28:04,618 --> 01:28:06,954
...or, uh, you know, uh,
getting up in the morning...
1591
01:28:07,488 --> 01:28:10,424
...and having the cup of cold coffee
that's been waiting for me all night...
1592
01:28:11,091 --> 01:28:13,227
...still there for me
to drink in the morning...
1593
01:28:13,694 --> 01:28:16,563
...and no cockroach or fly
has-has died in it overnight.
1594
01:28:17,231 --> 01:28:19,366
I mean, I'm just so thrilled
when I get up...
1595
01:28:20,033 --> 01:28:22,836
...and I see that coffee there,
just the way I wanted it.
1596
01:28:23,504 --> 01:28:25,439
I mean, I just can't imagine...
1597
01:28:25,906 --> 01:28:28,108
...how anybody could enjoy something else
any more than that.
1598
01:28:28,642 --> 01:28:31,779
I mean... I mean, obviously, if the cockroach...
if there is a dead cockroach in it...
1599
01:28:32,513 --> 01:28:34,848
...well, then I just have a feeling
of disappointment, and I'm sad.
1600
01:28:35,449 --> 01:28:37,985
But I mean, I... I just...
I just don't think...
1601
01:28:38,652 --> 01:28:40,521
I feel the need for anything more
than all this.
1602
01:28:41,055 --> 01:28:43,190
Whereas, you know,
you seem to be saying...
1603
01:28:43,724 --> 01:28:46,126
...that, uh...
1604
01:28:46,727 --> 01:28:49,463
...it's inconceivable that anybody could
be having a meaningful life today...
1605
01:28:50,130 --> 01:28:51,932
...and, you know,
everyone is totally destroyed...
1606
01:28:52,399 --> 01:28:54,468
...and we all need to live
in these outposts.
1607
01:28:55,135 --> 01:28:57,271
But I mean, you know,
I just can't believe... Even for you...
1608
01:28:57,805 --> 01:29:00,541
I mean, don't you find... Isn't it pleasant
just to get up in the morning...
1609
01:29:01,208 --> 01:29:04,144
...and there's Chiquita,
there are the children...
1610
01:29:04,812 --> 01:29:06,814
...and The Times is delivered,
you can read it.
1611
01:29:07,281 --> 01:29:09,750
I mean, maybe you'll direct a play,
maybe you won't direct a play.
1612
01:29:10,284 --> 01:29:12,486
But forget about the play
that you may or may not direct.
1613
01:29:13,020 --> 01:29:16,890
Why is it necessary to...Why not lean back
and just enjoy these details?
1614
01:29:17,691 --> 01:29:21,495
I mean, and there'd be a delicious cup
of coffee and a piece of coffeecake.
1615
01:29:22,296 --> 01:29:24,565
I mean, why is it necessary
to have more than this...
1616
01:29:25,099 --> 01:29:27,034
...or to even think about
having more than this?
1617
01:29:27,501 --> 01:29:30,237
I mean, I don't really know
what you're talking about.
1618
01:29:32,106 --> 01:29:34,374
I mean... I mean,
I know what you're talking about...
1619
01:29:34,908 --> 01:29:37,244
...but I don't really know
what you're talking about.
1620
01:29:37,845 --> 01:29:40,514
And I mean, you know, even if I were
to totally agree with you, you know...
1621
01:29:41,115 --> 01:29:43,784
...and even if I were to accept the idea
that there's just no way for anybody...
1622
01:29:44,451 --> 01:29:46,120
...to have personal happiness now...
1623
01:29:46,520 --> 01:29:48,522
...well, you know,
I still couldn't accept the idea...
1624
01:29:48,989 --> 01:29:51,191
...that the way to make life wonderful
would be to just totally...
1625
01:29:51,725 --> 01:29:53,660
...you know,
reject Western civilization...
1626
01:29:54,128 --> 01:29:56,864
...and fall back into some kind of belief
in some kind of weird something...
1627
01:29:57,464 --> 01:29:59,466
I mean, I don't even know how
to begin talking about this...
1628
01:30:00,067 --> 01:30:02,870
...but you know, in the Middle Ages...
1629
01:30:03,470 --> 01:30:06,473
...before the arrival of
scientific thinking as we know it today...
1630
01:30:07,207 --> 01:30:09,143
...well, people could believe anything.
1631
01:30:09,610 --> 01:30:11,812
Anything could be true...
the statue of the Virgin Mary...
1632
01:30:12,279 --> 01:30:13,947
...could speak or bleed
or whatever it was.
1633
01:30:14,415 --> 01:30:16,083
But the wonderful thing
that happened...
1634
01:30:16,483 --> 01:30:19,019
...was that then in the development
of science in the Western world...
1635
01:30:19,620 --> 01:30:23,490
...certain things did come slowly
to be known and understood.
1636
01:30:24,425 --> 01:30:26,560
I mean, you know...
1637
01:30:27,094 --> 01:30:29,963
...obviously, all ideas in science
are constantly being revised.
1638
01:30:30,631 --> 01:30:32,166
I mean, that's the whole point.
1639
01:30:32,633 --> 01:30:36,770
But we do at least know that the universe
has some shape and order...
1640
01:30:37,704 --> 01:30:41,442
...and that, uh, you know, trees do not
turn into people or goddesses...
1641
01:30:42,309 --> 01:30:44,244
...and there are very good reasons
why they don't...
1642
01:30:44,712 --> 01:30:46,647
...and you can't just believe
absolutely anything.
1643
01:30:47,114 --> 01:30:48,716
Whereas, the things
that you're talking about...
1644
01:30:49,116 --> 01:30:52,052
I mean... I mean, you found
the handprint in the book...
1645
01:30:52,720 --> 01:30:56,056
...and there were... There were three Andr�s
and one Antoine de Saint-Exup�ry.
1646
01:30:56,790 --> 01:30:59,059
And to me that is a coincidence.
1647
01:30:59,593 --> 01:31:02,129
But...And-And then, you know,
the people who put that book together...
1648
01:31:02,663 --> 01:31:04,531
...well, they had their own reasons
for putting it together.
1649
01:31:04,998 --> 01:31:07,668
But to you it was significant, as if that book
had been written 40 years ago...
1650
01:31:08,268 --> 01:31:11,538
...so that you would see it,
as if it was planned for you, in a way.
1651
01:31:12,406 --> 01:31:14,074
I mean, really... I mean...
1652
01:31:14,475 --> 01:31:18,345
I mean, all right, let's say, if I get
a fortune cookie in a Chinese restaurant...
1653
01:31:19,213 --> 01:31:20,881
I mean, of course,
even I have a tendency...
1654
01:31:21,281 --> 01:31:23,617
I mean, you know... I mean, of course,
I would hardly throw it out.
1655
01:31:24,218 --> 01:31:26,620
I mean, I read it.
I read it, and... And, uh...
1656
01:31:27,221 --> 01:31:29,957
I just instinctively sort of...
You know, if it says something like, uh...
1657
01:31:30,624 --> 01:31:33,627
"A conversation with a dark-haired man
will be very important for you"...
1658
01:31:34,294 --> 01:31:36,764
...well, I just instinctively think, you know,
"Who do I know who has dark hair?
1659
01:31:37,431 --> 01:31:39,767
Did we have a conversation?
What did we talk about?"
1660
01:31:40,300 --> 01:31:43,904
In other words, uh, there's something
in me that makes me read it...
1661
01:31:44,705 --> 01:31:47,708
...and I instinctively interpret it
as if it were an omen of the future.
1662
01:31:48,375 --> 01:31:51,378
But in my conscious opinion, which is
so fundamental to my whole view of life...
1663
01:31:52,112 --> 01:31:54,715
I mean, I would just have to change totally
to not have this opinion.
1664
01:31:55,315 --> 01:31:56,984
In my conscious opinion,
this is simply something...
1665
01:31:57,384 --> 01:32:00,921
...that was written in the cookie factory
several years ago and in no way refers to me.
1666
01:32:01,655 --> 01:32:03,924
I mean, you know,
the... The fact that I got it...
1667
01:32:04,458 --> 01:32:06,727
I mean, the man who wrote it
did not know anything about me.
1668
01:32:07,261 --> 01:32:08,929
I mean, he could not have known
anything about me.
1669
01:32:09,396 --> 01:32:11,665
There's no way that this cookie
could actually have to do with me.
1670
01:32:12,199 --> 01:32:14,268
And the fact that I've gotten it
is just basically a joke.
1671
01:32:14,802 --> 01:32:17,137
And I mean, if I were gonna go
on a trip on an airplane...
1672
01:32:17,671 --> 01:32:19,339
...and I got a fortune cookie
that said " Don't go"...
1673
01:32:19,807 --> 01:32:22,943
I mean, of course, I admit I might feel
a bit nervous for about one second.
1674
01:32:23,677 --> 01:32:25,813
But in fact, I would go because,
I mean...
1675
01:32:26,280 --> 01:32:28,282
...that trip is gonna be successful
or unsuccessful...
1676
01:32:28,816 --> 01:32:30,951
...based on the state of the airplane
and the state of the pilot.
1677
01:32:31,485 --> 01:32:33,754
And the cookie is in no position
to know about that.
1678
01:32:34,288 --> 01:32:35,889
And I mean, you know, it's the same...
1679
01:32:36,290 --> 01:32:38,625
...with any kind of, uh, prophecy,
or a sign, or an omen.
1680
01:32:39,226 --> 01:32:42,896
Because if you believe in omens,
then that means that the universe...
1681
01:32:43,697 --> 01:32:45,699
I mean, I don't even know how
to begin to describe this.
1682
01:32:46,233 --> 01:32:49,036
That means that the future
is somehow sending messages...
1683
01:32:49,770 --> 01:32:51,438
...backwards to the present.
1684
01:32:51,905 --> 01:32:54,641
Which-Which means that the future
must exist in some sense already...
1685
01:32:55,309 --> 01:32:57,778
...in order to be able
to send these messages.
1686
01:32:58,379 --> 01:33:01,782
And it also means that things in the universe
are there for a purpose... To give us messages.
1687
01:33:02,583 --> 01:33:04,585
Whereas I think that things
in the universe are just there.
1688
01:33:05,052 --> 01:33:06,653
I mean, they don't mean anything.
1689
01:33:07,054 --> 01:33:10,858
I mean, you know, if the turtle's egg falls out
of the tree and splashes on the paving stones...
1690
01:33:11,658 --> 01:33:14,261
...it's just because that turtle was clumsy...
by accident.
1691
01:33:14,862 --> 01:33:18,332
And-And to decide whether to send
my ships off to war on the basis of that...
1692
01:33:19,066 --> 01:33:20,734
...seems a big mistake to me.
1693
01:33:21,268 --> 01:33:24,204
Well, what information would
you send your ships to war on?
1694
01:33:25,005 --> 01:33:26,407
Because if it's all meaningless...
1695
01:33:26,807 --> 01:33:28,342
...what's the difference whether
you accept the fortune cookie...
1696
01:33:28,876 --> 01:33:30,544
...or the statistics
of the Ford Foundation?
1697
01:33:31,011 --> 01:33:32,679
It doesn't seem to matter.
1698
01:33:33,080 --> 01:33:36,483
Well, the meaningless fact
of the fortune cookie or the turtle's egg...
1699
01:33:37,284 --> 01:33:40,421
...can't possibly have any relevance
to the subject you're analyzing.
1700
01:33:41,221 --> 01:33:43,891
Whereas a group of meaningless facts
that are collected and interpreted...
1701
01:33:44,491 --> 01:33:47,294
...in a scientific way
may quite possibly be relevant.
1702
01:33:47,961 --> 01:33:50,230
Because the wonderful thing
about scientific theories about things...
1703
01:33:50,764 --> 01:33:53,767
...is that they're based on experiments
that can be repeated.
1704
01:33:55,502 --> 01:33:57,104
Hmm.
1705
01:34:12,252 --> 01:34:14,054
Well, it's true, Wally.
1706
01:34:14,455 --> 01:34:16,724
I mean, you know,
following omens and so on...
1707
01:34:17,257 --> 01:34:19,593
...is probably just a way
of letting ourselves off the hook...
1708
01:34:20,194 --> 01:34:23,731
...so that we don't have to take individual
responsibility for our own actions.
1709
01:34:24,598 --> 01:34:26,467
But I mean, giving yourself over
to the unconscious...
1710
01:34:27,000 --> 01:34:31,405
...can leave you vulnerable to all sorts
of very frightening manipulation.
1711
01:34:32,406 --> 01:34:35,142
And in all the work that I was involved in,
there was always that danger.
1712
01:34:35,809 --> 01:34:38,812
And there was always that question
of tampering with people's lives...
1713
01:34:39,480 --> 01:34:42,483
...because if I lead one of these workshops,
then I do become partly a doctor...
1714
01:34:43,217 --> 01:34:44,952
...and partly a therapist,
and partly a priest.
1715
01:34:45,419 --> 01:34:49,089
And I'm not a doctor,
or a therapist, or a priest.
1716
01:34:49,890 --> 01:34:52,025
And already some
of these new monasteries...
1717
01:34:52,559 --> 01:34:54,628
...or communities or whatever
we've been talking about...
1718
01:34:55,162 --> 01:34:56,897
...are becoming institutionalized...
1719
01:34:57,364 --> 01:35:00,033
...and I guess even in a way, at times,
sort of fascistic.
1720
01:35:00,634 --> 01:35:03,971
You know, there's a sort of self-satisfied
elitist paranoia that grows up...
1721
01:35:04,772 --> 01:35:07,307
...a feeling of" them" and " us"...
that is very unsettling.
1722
01:35:07,975 --> 01:35:11,512
But I mean, uh, the thing is, Wally, I think
it's the exaggerated worship of science...
1723
01:35:12,246 --> 01:35:13,847
...that has led us into this situation.
1724
01:35:14,248 --> 01:35:16,450
I mean, science has been held up to us
as a magical force...
1725
01:35:16,984 --> 01:35:18,652
...that would somehow solve everything.
1726
01:35:19,053 --> 01:35:20,921
Well, quite the contrary.
It's done quite the contrary.
1727
01:35:21,388 --> 01:35:23,057
It's destroyed everything.
1728
01:35:23,457 --> 01:35:25,059
So that is what has really led,
I think...
1729
01:35:25,459 --> 01:35:28,796
...to this very strong, deep reaction
against science that we're seeing now...
1730
01:35:29,596 --> 01:35:31,799
...just as the Nazi demons that were
released in the '30s in Germany...
1731
01:35:32,399 --> 01:35:35,536
...were probably a reaction against
a certain oppressive kind of knowledge...
1732
01:35:36,270 --> 01:35:38,338
...and culture and rational thinking.
1733
01:35:38,872 --> 01:35:41,809
So I agree that we're talking about
something potentially very dangerous.
1734
01:35:42,476 --> 01:35:45,145
But modern science has not been
particularly less dangerous.
1735
01:35:45,813 --> 01:35:47,481
Right. Well, I agree with you.
1736
01:35:47,881 --> 01:35:49,483
I completely agree.
1737
01:35:51,685 --> 01:35:53,754
No, you know, the truth is...
1738
01:35:54,288 --> 01:35:57,691
I think I do know what really disturbs me
about the work you've described...
1739
01:35:58,492 --> 01:36:00,961
...and I don't even know if I can express it.
1740
01:36:01,562 --> 01:36:04,832
But somehow it seems that the whole point
of the work that you did in those workshops...
1741
01:36:05,566 --> 01:36:08,836
...when you get right down to it
and you ask what was it really about...
1742
01:36:09,570 --> 01:36:11,171
The whole point, really, I think...
1743
01:36:11,572 --> 01:36:14,241
...was to enable the people in the workshops,
including yourself...
1744
01:36:14,842 --> 01:36:18,445
...to somehow sort of strip away
every scrap of purposefulness...
1745
01:36:19,246 --> 01:36:21,448
...from certain selected moments.
1746
01:36:21,982 --> 01:36:24,651
And the point of it was so that you would
then all be able to experience...
1747
01:36:25,252 --> 01:36:27,921
...somehow just pure being.
1748
01:36:28,589 --> 01:36:31,792
In other words, you were trying to discover what
it would be like to live for certain moments...
1749
01:36:32,593 --> 01:36:35,129
...without having any particular thing
that you were supposed to be doing.
1750
01:36:35,796 --> 01:36:37,664
And I think
I just simply object to that.
1751
01:36:38,198 --> 01:36:40,734
I mean, I just don't think I accept the idea
that there should be moments...
1752
01:36:41,402 --> 01:36:43,203
...in which you're not trying
to do anything.
1753
01:36:43,670 --> 01:36:47,007
I think, uh,
it's our nature, uh, to do things.
1754
01:36:47,808 --> 01:36:49,343
I think we should do things.
1755
01:36:49,743 --> 01:36:51,478
I think that, uh, purposefulness...
1756
01:36:51,945 --> 01:36:55,549
...is part of our ineradicable
basic human structure.
1757
01:36:56,350 --> 01:36:58,685
And to say that we ought to
be able to live without it...
1758
01:36:59,286 --> 01:37:02,623
...is like saying that, uh, a tree ought to
be able to live without branches or roots.
1759
01:37:03,357 --> 01:37:05,626
But... But actually, without branches
or roots, it wouldn't be a tree.
1760
01:37:06,160 --> 01:37:08,495
I mean, it would just be a log.
Do you see what I'm saying?
1761
01:37:09,029 --> 01:37:10,497
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
1762
01:37:10,831 --> 01:37:13,634
I mean, in other words, if I'm sitting at home
and I have nothing to do...
1763
01:37:14,368 --> 01:37:15,969
...well, I naturally reach for a book.
1764
01:37:16,370 --> 01:37:19,440
I mean, what would be so great about
just sitting there and, uh, doing nothing?
1765
01:37:20,174 --> 01:37:21,709
It just seems absurd.
1766
01:37:22,176 --> 01:37:23,377
And if Debby is there?
1767
01:37:24,978 --> 01:37:26,513
Well, that's just the same thing.
1768
01:37:26,980 --> 01:37:29,383
I mean, is there really
such a thing as, uh...
1769
01:37:29,983 --> 01:37:33,187
...two people doing nothing
but just being together?
1770
01:37:33,987 --> 01:37:35,656
I mean, would they simply then...
1771
01:37:36,056 --> 01:37:38,525
...be, uh, " relating,"
to use the word we're always using?
1772
01:37:39,193 --> 01:37:40,728
I mean, what would that mean?
1773
01:37:41,195 --> 01:37:42,863
I mean, either we're
gonna have a conversation...
1774
01:37:43,263 --> 01:37:44,998
...or we're going to, uh,
carry out the garbage...
1775
01:37:45,599 --> 01:37:48,469
...or we're going to do something,
separately or together.
1776
01:37:49,203 --> 01:37:50,738
I mean, do you see what I'm saying?
1777
01:37:51,138 --> 01:37:54,408
I mean, what does it mean
to just, uh, simply, uh, sit there?
1778
01:37:55,142 --> 01:37:57,077
That makes you nervous.
1779
01:37:57,544 --> 01:38:01,215
Well, well, why shouldn't it make me nervous?
It just seems ridiculous to me.
1780
01:38:02,082 --> 01:38:03,751
That's interesting, Wally.
1781
01:38:05,152 --> 01:38:08,355
You know, when I went to Ladakh in western
Tibet and stayed on a farm for a month...
1782
01:38:09,022 --> 01:38:12,292
...well, there, you know, when people come over
in the evening for tea, nobody says anything.
1783
01:38:13,026 --> 01:38:14,828
Unless there's something to say,
but there almost never is.
1784
01:38:15,229 --> 01:38:18,165
So they just sit there and drink their tea,
and it doesn't seem to bother them.
1785
01:38:21,835 --> 01:38:24,104
I mean, you see, the trouble, Wally,
with always being active and doing things...
1786
01:38:24,638 --> 01:38:27,241
...is that I think it's quite possible
to do all sorts of things...
1787
01:38:27,841 --> 01:38:30,711
...and at the same time
be completely dead inside.
1788
01:38:31,378 --> 01:38:33,380
I mean, you're doing all these things,
but are you doing them...
1789
01:38:33,847 --> 01:38:35,582
...because you really feel
an impulse to do them...
1790
01:38:36,050 --> 01:38:38,385
...or are you doing them mechanically,
as we were saying before?
1791
01:38:38,986 --> 01:38:41,121
Because I really do believe
that if you're just living mechanically...
1792
01:38:41,655 --> 01:38:43,457
...then you have to change your life.
1793
01:38:43,991 --> 01:38:46,460
I mean, you know, when you're young,
you go out on dates all the time.
1794
01:38:47,061 --> 01:38:49,463
You go dancing or something.
You're floating free.
1795
01:38:50,064 --> 01:38:52,666
And then one day suddenly
you find yourself in a relationship...
1796
01:38:53,333 --> 01:38:55,069
...and suddenly everything freezes.
1797
01:38:55,536 --> 01:38:57,871
And this can be true
in your work as well.
1798
01:38:58,472 --> 01:39:00,808
And I mean, of course,
if you're really alive inside...
1799
01:39:01,341 --> 01:39:02,943
...then of course there's no problem.
1800
01:39:03,343 --> 01:39:05,279
I mean, if you're living with somebody
in one little room...
1801
01:39:05,746 --> 01:39:08,082
...and there's a life going on between you
and the person you're living with...
1802
01:39:08,615 --> 01:39:12,286
...well, then a whole adventure
can be going on right in that room.
1803
01:39:13,153 --> 01:39:16,156
But there's always the danger
that things can go dead.
1804
01:39:16,824 --> 01:39:19,827
Then I really do think you have to kind of
become a hobo or something, you know...
1805
01:39:20,561 --> 01:39:22,296
...like Kerouac,
and go out on the road.
1806
01:39:22,763 --> 01:39:24,565
I really believe that.
1807
01:39:25,032 --> 01:39:28,302
You know, it's not that wonderful
to spend your life on the road.
1808
01:39:29,036 --> 01:39:32,840
My own overwhelming preference
is to stay in that room if you can.
1809
01:39:33,640 --> 01:39:36,310
But you know, if you live with somebody for
a long time, people are constantly saying...
1810
01:39:36,977 --> 01:39:39,980
"Well, of course it's not as great
as it used to be, but that's only natural.
1811
01:39:40,647 --> 01:39:43,584
The first blush of a romance goes,
and that's the way it has to be. "
1812
01:39:44,251 --> 01:39:46,920
Now, I totally disagree with that.
1813
01:39:47,588 --> 01:39:51,392
But I do think that you have to constantly ask
yourself the question, with total frankness:
1814
01:39:52,259 --> 01:39:53,994
Is your marriage still a marriage?
1815
01:39:54,461 --> 01:39:56,263
Is the sacramental element there?
1816
01:39:56,730 --> 01:39:58,932
Just as you have to ask about
the sacramental element in your work...
1817
01:39:59,466 --> 01:40:01,402
Is it still there?
1818
01:40:01,935 --> 01:40:04,138
I mean, it's a very frightening thing, Wally,
to have to suddenly realize...
1819
01:40:04,605 --> 01:40:08,208
...that, my God, I thought I was living my life,
but in fact I haven't been a human being.
1820
01:40:09,009 --> 01:40:10,611
I've been a performer.
1821
01:40:11,011 --> 01:40:13,614
I haven't been living. I've been acting.
I've... I've acted the role of the father.
1822
01:40:14,214 --> 01:40:17,217
I've acted the role of the husband.
I've acted the role of the friend.
1823
01:40:17,951 --> 01:40:20,821
I've acted the role of the writer,
or director, or what have you.
1824
01:40:21,422 --> 01:40:24,625
I've lived in the same room with this person,
but I haven't really seen them.
1825
01:40:25,359 --> 01:40:28,762
I haven't really heard them.
I haven't really been with them.
1826
01:40:29,563 --> 01:40:31,699
Yeah, I know some people
are just sometimes...
1827
01:40:32,366 --> 01:40:34,435
...uh, existing just side by side.
1828
01:40:35,035 --> 01:40:39,106
I mean, uh, the other person's, uh, face
could just turn into a great wolf's face...
1829
01:40:40,040 --> 01:40:42,376
...and, uh, it just wouldn't be noticed.
1830
01:40:42,976 --> 01:40:45,713
And it wouldn't be noticed, no.
It wouldn't be noticed.
1831
01:40:47,581 --> 01:40:49,383
I mean, when I was in Israel
a little while ago...
1832
01:40:49,850 --> 01:40:51,985
I mean, I have this picture of Chiquita
that was taken when she...
1833
01:40:52,519 --> 01:40:55,522
I always carry it with me. It was taken
when she was about 26 or something.
1834
01:40:56,256 --> 01:40:58,592
And it's in summer,
and she's stretched out on a terrace...
1835
01:40:59,126 --> 01:41:01,528
...in this sort of old-fashioned long skirt
that's kind of pulled up.
1836
01:41:02,129 --> 01:41:04,198
And she's slim and sensual
and beautiful.
1837
01:41:04,732 --> 01:41:08,402
And I've always looked at that picture
and just thought about just how sexy she looks.
1838
01:41:09,203 --> 01:41:11,138
And then last year in Israel,
I looked at the picture...
1839
01:41:11,605 --> 01:41:15,209
...and I realized that that face in the picture
was the saddest face in the world.
1840
01:41:16,009 --> 01:41:18,612
That girl at that time was just lost...
1841
01:41:19,213 --> 01:41:20,814
...so sad and so alone.
1842
01:41:21,215 --> 01:41:24,218
I've been carrying this picture for years
and not ever really seeing what it is, you know.
1843
01:41:24,952 --> 01:41:27,488
I just never really
looked at the picture.
1844
01:41:30,023 --> 01:41:33,627
And then, at a certain point, I realized I'd
just gone for a good 18 years unable to feel...
1845
01:41:34,428 --> 01:41:36,296
...except in the most extreme situations.
1846
01:41:36,764 --> 01:41:39,233
I mean, to some extent, I still had
the ability to live in my work.
1847
01:41:39,967 --> 01:41:41,502
That was why I was such a work junkie.
1848
01:41:41,969 --> 01:41:45,439
That was why I felt that every play that I did
was a matter of my life or my death.
1849
01:41:46,240 --> 01:41:47,975
But in my real life, I was dead.
1850
01:41:48,442 --> 01:41:50,577
I was a robot.
1851
01:41:51,178 --> 01:41:53,580
I mean, I didn't even allow myself
to get angry or annoyed.
1852
01:41:54,114 --> 01:41:56,450
I mean, you know, today
Chiquita, Nicolas, Marina...
1853
01:41:57,051 --> 01:42:00,320
All day long, as people do, they do things that
annoy me and they say things that annoy me.
1854
01:42:01,055 --> 01:42:03,323
And today I get annoyed.
And they say, " Why are you annoyed?"
1855
01:42:03,857 --> 01:42:05,592
And I say, " Because you're annoying,"
you know.
1856
01:42:07,594 --> 01:42:09,530
And when I allowed myself
to consider the possibility...
1857
01:42:09,997 --> 01:42:12,132
...of not spending
the rest of my life with Chiquita...
1858
01:42:12,733 --> 01:42:15,736
I realized that what I wanted most in life
was to always be with her.
1859
01:42:17,805 --> 01:42:20,607
But at that time, I hadn't learned what
it would be like to let yourself react...
1860
01:42:21,208 --> 01:42:22,810
...to another human being.
1861
01:42:23,210 --> 01:42:24,878
And if you can't react
to another person...
1862
01:42:25,345 --> 01:42:28,015
...then there's no possibility
of action or interaction.
1863
01:42:28,615 --> 01:42:32,820
And if there isn't, I don't really know
what the word " love" means...
1864
01:42:33,754 --> 01:42:37,758
...except duty, obligation,
sentimentality, fear.
1865
01:42:41,028 --> 01:42:43,097
I mean...
1866
01:42:44,565 --> 01:42:46,233
I don't know about you, Wally, but I...
1867
01:42:46,767 --> 01:42:50,104
I just had to put myself into a kind of training
program to learn how to be a human being.
1868
01:42:50,838 --> 01:42:52,639
I mean, how did I feel about anything?
I didn't know.
1869
01:42:53,173 --> 01:42:56,710
What kind of things did I like? What kind of
people did I really want to be with? You know?
1870
01:42:57,511 --> 01:42:59,513
And the only way
that I could think of to find out...
1871
01:43:00,047 --> 01:43:03,317
...was to just cut out all the noise
and stop performing all the time...
1872
01:43:04,051 --> 01:43:06,854
...and just listen to what was inside me.
1873
01:43:07,521 --> 01:43:10,057
See, I think a time comes
when you need to do that.
1874
01:43:10,591 --> 01:43:13,127
Now, maybe in order to do it,
you have to go to the Sahara...
1875
01:43:13,727 --> 01:43:15,396
...and maybe you can do it at home.
1876
01:43:15,796 --> 01:43:17,731
But you need to cut out the noise.
1877
01:43:22,403 --> 01:43:24,071
Yeah. Of course, personally,
I- I just, uh...
1878
01:43:24,538 --> 01:43:27,541
I usually don't, uh...
like those quiet moments, you know.
1879
01:43:28,208 --> 01:43:29,676
I really don't.
1880
01:43:30,010 --> 01:43:33,947
I mean, uh, I don't know if
it's that, uh, Freudian thing or what...
1881
01:43:34,815 --> 01:43:37,017
But, uh, you know, the fear
of unconscious impulses...
1882
01:43:37,551 --> 01:43:40,220
...or my own aggression
or whatever, but, uh...
1883
01:43:40,821 --> 01:43:43,891
...if things get too quiet, and I find myself
just, uh, sitting there...
1884
01:43:44,625 --> 01:43:46,226
...you know,
as we were saying before...
1885
01:43:46,627 --> 01:43:50,431
I mean, whether I'm by myself,
or-or I'm-I'm with someone else...
1886
01:43:51,365 --> 01:43:53,901
I just, uh...
I just have this feeling of...
1887
01:43:54,501 --> 01:43:57,838
...uh, my God,
I'm going to be revealed.
1888
01:43:58,706 --> 01:44:02,109
In other words, I'm adequate
to do any sort of a task, um...
1889
01:44:02,910 --> 01:44:06,180
...but I'm not adequate, uh,
just to... To be a human being.
1890
01:44:06,914 --> 01:44:08,515
I mean, in other words, I'm not, uh...
1891
01:44:08,916 --> 01:44:11,652
If I'm just, uh, trapped there
and I'm not allowed to do things...
1892
01:44:12,319 --> 01:44:15,189
...but all I can do is just,
um, be there...
1893
01:44:15,789 --> 01:44:17,725
...well, I'll just fail.
1894
01:44:18,192 --> 01:44:19,793
I mean, in other words, uh...
1895
01:44:20,194 --> 01:44:22,196
I can pass any other sort of a test...
1896
01:44:22,730 --> 01:44:25,933
...and, you know, I can even get an " A"
if I put in the required effort...
1897
01:44:26,600 --> 01:44:28,402
...but I just don't, uh...
1898
01:44:28,936 --> 01:44:31,071
I just don't have a clue
how to pass this test.
1899
01:44:31,739 --> 01:44:34,541
I mean... I mean, of course,
I realize this isn't a test...
1900
01:44:35,209 --> 01:44:37,478
...but, um, I see it as a test...
1901
01:44:38,011 --> 01:44:39,680
...and I feel I'm going to fail it.
1902
01:44:40,147 --> 01:44:41,682
I mean, it's... it's very scary.
1903
01:44:42,149 --> 01:44:45,686
I just feel, uh,just totally at sea.
I mean...
1904
01:44:46,553 --> 01:44:48,555
Well, you know,
I could imagine a life, Wally...
1905
01:44:49,022 --> 01:44:53,027
...in which each day would become
an incredible, monumental, creative task...
1906
01:44:53,961 --> 01:44:55,763
...and we're not necessarily up to it.
1907
01:44:56,230 --> 01:44:59,033
I mean, if you felt like walking out
on the person you live with, you'd walk out.
1908
01:44:59,700 --> 01:45:01,368
Then if you felt like it,
you'd come back.
1909
01:45:01,835 --> 01:45:04,838
But meanwhile, the other person
would have reacted to your walking out.
1910
01:45:05,639 --> 01:45:08,308
It would be a life of such feeling.
1911
01:45:08,909 --> 01:45:10,844
I mean, what was amazing
in the workshops I led...
1912
01:45:11,311 --> 01:45:14,314
...was how quickly people seemed
to fall into enthusiasm...
1913
01:45:14,982 --> 01:45:18,585
...celebration,joy, wonder,
abandon, wildness, tenderness.
1914
01:45:19,386 --> 01:45:21,255
Could we stand to live like that?
1915
01:45:21,722 --> 01:45:24,258
Yeah, I think it's that moment of contact
with another person.
1916
01:45:24,792 --> 01:45:26,393
I mean, that's what scares us.
1917
01:45:26,794 --> 01:45:29,663
I mean, that moment of being
face to face with another person.
1918
01:45:30,330 --> 01:45:31,865
I mean, now...
1919
01:45:32,332 --> 01:45:35,803
You wouldn't think it would be so frightening.
It's strange that we find it so frightening.
1920
01:45:36,603 --> 01:45:38,205
Well, it isn't that strange.
1921
01:45:38,605 --> 01:45:41,275
I mean, first of all, there are some
pretty good reasons for being frightened.
1922
01:45:41,942 --> 01:45:45,479
I mean, you know, the human being
is a complex and dangerous creature.
1923
01:45:46,346 --> 01:45:48,482
I mean, really,
if you start living each moment?
1924
01:45:49,016 --> 01:45:50,684
Christ, that's quite a challenge.
1925
01:45:51,151 --> 01:45:54,154
I mean, if you really reach out and you're
really in touch with the other person...
1926
01:45:54,822 --> 01:45:57,624
...well, that really is something
to strive for, I think, I really do.
1927
01:45:58,292 --> 01:46:00,561
Yeah, it's just so pathetic
if one doesn't do that.
1928
01:46:01,095 --> 01:46:04,698
Of course there's a problem, because the closer
you come, I think, to another human being...
1929
01:46:05,632 --> 01:46:08,102
...the more completely mysterious...
and unreachable...
1930
01:46:08,702 --> 01:46:10,304
...that person becomes.
1931
01:46:10,704 --> 01:46:13,774
I mean, you know, you have to reach out,
you have to go back and forth with them...
1932
01:46:14,508 --> 01:46:17,778
...and you have to relate, and yet you're
relating to a ghost or something.
1933
01:46:18,512 --> 01:46:20,180
I don't know,
because we're ghosts.
1934
01:46:20,581 --> 01:46:23,784
We're phantoms.
Who are we?
1935
01:46:24,518 --> 01:46:26,854
And that's to face, to confront the fact
that you're completely alone.
1936
01:46:27,388 --> 01:46:29,723
And to accept that you're alone
is to accept death.
1937
01:46:30,324 --> 01:46:32,993
You mean, because somehow when you
are alone, you're alone with death.
1938
01:46:33,594 --> 01:46:37,131
I mean, nothing's obstructing your view of it,
or something like that.
1939
01:46:37,931 --> 01:46:39,400
Right.
1940
01:46:39,800 --> 01:46:42,202
You know, if I understood it correctly,
I think, uh, Heidegger said...
1941
01:46:42,803 --> 01:46:46,273
...that, uh, if you were to experience
your own being to the full...
1942
01:46:47,141 --> 01:46:51,278
...you'd be experiencing the decay
of that being toward death...
1943
01:46:52,212 --> 01:46:54,148
...as a part of your experience.
1944
01:46:54,615 --> 01:46:57,284
You know, in the sexual act there's
that moment of complete forgetting...
1945
01:46:57,885 --> 01:46:59,219
...which is so incredible.
1946
01:46:59,620 --> 01:47:01,422
Then in the next moment,
you start to think about things:
1947
01:47:01,889 --> 01:47:03,757
...work on the play,
what you've got to do tomorrow.
1948
01:47:04,224 --> 01:47:07,161
I don't know if this is true of you,
but I think it must be quite common.
1949
01:47:07,828 --> 01:47:09,897
The world comes in quite fast.
1950
01:47:10,364 --> 01:47:13,300
Now, that again may be because we're
afraid to stay in that place of forgetting...
1951
01:47:13,967 --> 01:47:15,636
...because that, again, is close to death.
1952
01:47:16,103 --> 01:47:18,105
Like people
who are afraid to go to sleep.
1953
01:47:18,572 --> 01:47:21,842
In other words, you interrelate, and you
don't know what the next moment will bring.
1954
01:47:22,576 --> 01:47:24,244
And to not know
what the next moment will bring...
1955
01:47:24,712 --> 01:47:26,380
...brings you closer
to a perception of death.
1956
01:47:26,780 --> 01:47:29,917
You see, that's why I think
that people have affairs.
1957
01:47:30,584 --> 01:47:32,586
I mean, you know, in the theater,
if you get good reviews...
1958
01:47:33,120 --> 01:47:35,122
...you feel for a moment
that you've got your hands on something.
1959
01:47:35,589 --> 01:47:37,458
You know what I mean?
I mean, it's a good feeling.
1960
01:47:37,925 --> 01:47:39,793
But then that feeling goes quite quickly.
1961
01:47:40,327 --> 01:47:43,063
And once again you don't know
quite what you should do next.
1962
01:47:43,731 --> 01:47:45,065
What'll happen?
1963
01:47:45,399 --> 01:47:47,468
Well, have an affair,
and up to a certain point...
1964
01:47:48,135 --> 01:47:50,270
...you can really feel
that you're on firm ground, you know.
1965
01:47:50,804 --> 01:47:53,807
There's a sexual conquest to be made.
There are different questions.
1966
01:47:54,541 --> 01:47:56,210
Does she enjoy the ears being nibbled?
1967
01:47:56,610 --> 01:47:59,413
How intensely can you talk about Schopenhauer
at some elegant French restaurant?
1968
01:48:00,080 --> 01:48:02,082
Whatever nonsense it is.
1969
01:48:02,616 --> 01:48:05,953
It's all, I think, to give you the semblance
that there's firm earth.
1970
01:48:06,687 --> 01:48:09,957
Well, have a real relationship
with a person that goes on for years...
1971
01:48:10,691 --> 01:48:12,960
That's completely unpredictable.
1972
01:48:13,494 --> 01:48:16,163
Then you've cut off all your ties to the land,
and you're sailing into the unknown...
1973
01:48:16,764 --> 01:48:18,766
...into uncharted seas.
1974
01:48:19,366 --> 01:48:23,237
I mean, you know, people hold on to these
images of father, mother, husband, wife...
1975
01:48:24,171 --> 01:48:25,773
...again for the same reason...
1976
01:48:26,173 --> 01:48:29,043
'cause they seem to provide
some firm ground.
1977
01:48:29,777 --> 01:48:31,712
But there's no wife there.
1978
01:48:32,179 --> 01:48:33,847
What does that mean?
A wife.
1979
01:48:34,314 --> 01:48:36,517
A husband. A son.
1980
01:48:37,117 --> 01:48:38,786
A baby holds your hands...
1981
01:48:39,186 --> 01:48:42,189
...and then suddenly there's this huge man
lifting you off the ground...
1982
01:48:42,923 --> 01:48:44,458
...and then he's gone.
1983
01:48:44,925 --> 01:48:46,460
Where's that son?
1984
01:49:06,013 --> 01:49:09,349
All the other customers
seemed to have left hours ago.
1985
01:49:10,084 --> 01:49:13,620
We got the bill,
and Andr� paid for our dinner.
1986
01:49:14,355 --> 01:49:15,622
Really?
1987
01:49:42,182 --> 01:49:43,984
I treated myself to a taxi.
1988
01:49:45,919 --> 01:49:47,988
I rode home through the city streets.
1989
01:49:49,590 --> 01:49:51,859
There wasn't a street,
there wasn't a building...
1990
01:49:52,393 --> 01:49:55,062
...that wasn't connected
to some memory in my mind.
1991
01:49:57,131 --> 01:49:59,666
There, I was buying a suit
with my father.
1992
01:50:02,870 --> 01:50:05,739
There, I was having
an ice cream soda after school.
1993
01:50:10,411 --> 01:50:13,213
When I finally came in,
Debby was home from work...
1994
01:50:13,881 --> 01:50:16,817
...and I told her everything
about my dinner with Andr�.
191302
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