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I've got loads,
I've got loads of childhood memories,
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00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:34,671
but none of them are really good.
4
00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,718
Erm, I don't think
you remember the good stuff.
5
00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:42,792
Being in the house,
6
00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:44,598
Mum out in the pub,
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00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,399
or Mum comatosed in bed
8
00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,948
and setting fire to the bedroom
9
00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,600
to keep my brother and sister warm
cos they was cold.
10
00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,593
I can remember Lorraine
setting the bedroom on fire.
11
00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:07,153
And I were only young then.
I were probably only about five.
12
00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,869
But still to this day, if you talk
about it to me aunties and stuff,
13
00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,270
and they'll still say, "We don't know
which one of yous it were."
14
00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,638
And I'm like, "It weren't me!" Because
I can actually remember it, to this day.
15
00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,998
She were messing with matches
and the mattress caught fire.
16
00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,793
Back then you didn't have
the double-glazing and stuff
17
00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,030
that you get now.
18
00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:30,394
The house was horrible;
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00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:35,713
no carpets, no central heating,
locked in a room with no door handle.
20
00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:38,599
And, erm...
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00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,879
...standing at the window
shouting for help.
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00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,793
You know, because the fire
had got out of control.
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00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,710
But I think, I think... I don't know,
I think it were actually me.
24
00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,633
But when we'd shut the bedroom door,
25
00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,759
the handle fell off the door on the
inside so we couldn't get back out.
26
00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,753
So, there were only
the handle on the outside.
27
00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,912
But I think it were me
that actually broke that
28
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,516
because I think I started unscrewing it
with a knife or summat.
29
00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,716
Just being mad kids.
30
00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,080
My mum used to take
the door handles off.
31
00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,993
She'd check in the bedroom
there was no knives or forks
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00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,072
because if you got a knife or fork
you could put the handle in
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00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:24,275
to get out of the door.
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00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,792
And, erm, we never used
to get out of the room
35
00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,917
until Mum was up and she was ready
36
00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,117
to sort of release us
from our prison, if you like.
37
00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:43,315
I can actually remember me mum
when we lived at Edge End Gardens.
38
00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,631
I can always remember her
staying up late writing.
39
00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:48,711
Well, now I know what it were,
40
00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,031
but when we were kids,
we never knew what she were doing.
41
00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:56,511
But she used to stay up late and just
write and write and write and write.
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00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,388
She'd have, like, A4 sheets of paper,
just loads of them on the bed.
43
00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,995
And then, cos I can remember Andrew
once pulled 'em off her bed
44
00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,993
and she had to re-sort them out
and put them back in order.
45
00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,553
I can just remember banging
and banging and banging on the window,
46
00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:23,312
trying to get out.
47
00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,118
There were a woman
that lived about two doors down
48
00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:38,792
and she were a bus driver.
49
00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,111
Well, it were her husband
who got a ladder up to the back window
50
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:43,997
and got us out of the window.
51
00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:49,200
I can remember me mum...
Oh, she were going stir crazy.
52
00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:53,910
It were... It were mad.
That were mad, that were.
53
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,429
Mum was never a touchy feely person
54
00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,080
and she didn't give us cuddles
or tell us she loved us
55
00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:06,878
and she didn't give us kisses.
56
00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,714
We got clouts around the head
and smacks all the time and shouted at,
57
00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:11,949
that was it.
58
00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,397
Erm, and regardless
of what all my family seem to think,
59
00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,711
the sexual abuse was
from somebody they knew.
60
00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,235
I don't know whether
she didn't believe it
61
00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,197
or she just didn't want to believe it,
62
00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:29,478
but she still left me in a position
where it got repeated again.
63
00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,158
Can I forgive her?
64
00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,917
If she was alive today,
I'd have a lot to say to her.
65
00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,753
One of the reasons I hated her
was cos I couldn't tell her
66
00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:50,709
exactly how I felt as a child
and the way she brought me up.
67
00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,837
Erm, so, no, I can't forgive her.
68
00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,832
Andrea Dunbar is 18 years old.
69
00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:46,558
When she was 15
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00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,632
she wrote a play set in Bradford,
where she was brought up.
71
00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:50,709
Through friends,
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00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,917
the play was sent to the
Royal Court Theatre in London,
73
00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,629
where it's now having a successful
run in the theatre upstairs.
74
00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:03,318
Max Stafford-Clark
is directing the play, Andrea's first,
75
00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,119
as part of the
Young People's Theatre Festival.
76
00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:12,714
Well, I'd just become Artistic
Director of The Royal Court.
77
00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,588
So I read the plays submitted to
the Young Writers' Festival,
78
00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,353
and one outstanding one was in fact
79
00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,718
The Arbor, Andrea's first play,
which was written in green ink,
80
00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,509
on a school exercise book which had
been... The pages had been ripped out.
81
00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,716
I'm going to bed.
I'll see you when I get in.
82
00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,554
- Why won't you tell me who it is?
- Because I don't want to.
83
00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,198
- OK, it's your life. Do what you want.
- Don't worry, I will.
84
00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,748
But don't run to me
when people start calling you.
85
00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,354
I'm a big girl now.
I can look after myself.
86
00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,432
- Do what you want.
- I will, don't worry.
87
00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:46,839
So I met Andrea
88
00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,992
and it was an extraordinary
first interview with a writer,
89
00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,709
who at that point was staying in
a battered wives home in Keighley.
90
00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:58,191
She'd never been out of Yorkshire
before, never been in a theatre.
91
00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,437
Nowadays, people want to
face up with what's actually happening.
92
00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:07,272
Cos it's actually what's said.
93
00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,636
And you write what's said.
You don't lie.
94
00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,190
If you write about something
that's happened, you're not gonna lie
95
00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,397
and say, "It didn't happen,"
when it did all the time.
96
00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,719
The Arbor by Andrea Dunbar.
97
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,389
As soon as you earn enough money
you can get out.
98
00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,914
Fuck off! You're the one
that needs kicking out.
99
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,911
Get out of my sight before I kill you.
100
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,276
You hit me and I'll hit you back
and you'll get it off David an' all.
101
00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:34,679
He won't be able to hit me.
102
00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,399
If you don't shut up
you won't be here much longer.
103
00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,516
- I'll go now, if you want.
- Fuck off then.
104
00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:41,511
No, you get out.
105
00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:42,828
No, you won't, will you?
106
00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,593
You know nobody'd have you
cos you're no fucking good.
107
00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:47,557
Oh, shut up.
108
00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,872
She's more like me than not.
109
00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,235
I wrote more or less about my feelings.
110
00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:58,836
I called the play The Arbor
111
00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:03,118
because the street I lived on
112
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,953
is called Brafferton Arbor.
113
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,315
It's always known as the Arbor
114
00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:13,554
and a lot of these things
actually happened on the street.
115
00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,994
They used to have
a pen thing in the middle.
116
00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,036
That were full of glass.
117
00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,271
There'd be people
having bonfires on the field.
118
00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:33,912
They did make you feel welcome though.
They were friendly people, but...
119
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,798
It's like me Uncle Tony,
he used to be one of the ones
120
00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,919
that used to sit round the fire
and have a drink
121
00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,470
and they'd throw potatoes on it
and stuff like that.
122
00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:45,788
It were all mad.
123
00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,190
Even I used to sit round fires with them
when we were younger.
124
00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,675
"Dear Max, I'm sending you
the bit of writing I've done."
125
00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:13,159
"It's not much, really."
126
00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,357
"That's because I've had to take
Lorraine out of the nursery."
127
00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,590
"They moved her up to a class
with other kids
128
00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:21,638
and it upset her so much
I had to take her out."
129
00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,188
"Now I don't get
much of a chance to write."
130
00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:28,592
"But if I could, I'd like to come down
to London so I can get most of it done."
131
00:11:28,680 --> 00:11:30,352
"I could leave Lisa at my mother's
132
00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,910
and I could always bring one of my
younger sisters to watch Lorraine,
133
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,673
while I write.
Let me know what you think."
134
00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,957
"I would really like
to get it done. Andrea."
135
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,511
The Arbor. Act 1, Scene 6.
136
00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:52,949
- Hurry up, it's the police.
137
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:54,553
Stop the car. I want to get out.
138
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,790
Don't look round at them.
Just act normal.
139
00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:58,950
I want to get out.
Tell 'em, Billy, to stop.
140
00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:00,712
Do you want them to catch you?
141
00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:02,836
When we get round this corner,
jump out.
142
00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:04,114
I'm not, I'm pregnant.
143
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,509
No, she's not.
And you'd better not be, either.
144
00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:09,073
Tell him to slow down a bit.
145
00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:10,798
I can't, they're catching us.
146
00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:12,393
Slow down, please.
147
00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:14,675
I'm gonna try to pull up.
Get ready to jump.
148
00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:22,878
They pull up and the girl is left
in the car, which rolls into a snicket.
149
00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,996
The policeman comes up to the girl.
150
00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,513
- Right, come on, get out.
- Don't talk bloody silly.
151
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,592
How can I get out when the car door
is jammed in the lamp-post?
152
00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:36,639
Well, get out this side then.
And hurry up, I haven't got all night.
153
00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:38,836
Give me a fucking chance,
will you, man?
154
00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:41,748
- What's your name?
- Why?
155
00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:43,512
- Because I want to know.
- I dunno.
156
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,716
You mean you're not gonna tell me?
157
00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:47,870
Give me a minute,
it'll come back to me.
158
00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:49,791
- Are you trying to be funny?
- No.
159
00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,519
- So what's your name?
- I think it's Andrea.
160
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,115
- What do you mean you think?
- Alright, alright. It's Andrea Dunbar.
161
00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:58,395
- Right, and where do you live?
- Up there.
162
00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,199
- Up where?
- Up there on the Arbor.
163
00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,035
- Right, well, get in that car.
- What for?
164
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,315
Because I said so, that's why.
165
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:13,228
It was notorious.
166
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,757
It was known as the toughest estate
in, you know, in Bradford.
167
00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:22,516
Buttershaw, and then the Arbor
was the toughest street.
168
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:24,670
But not any more. Look at it now.
169
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,710
"Dear Max, here are some re-writes
and a scene of me and Yousaf."
170
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,438
"Hope you like it."
171
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,353
"I think it's better talking
to each other on the way
172
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,876
rather than in the house.
Hope it doesn't matter."
173
00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:51,272
"But I like it better.
Will send you some more this week."
174
00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,238
I wish I could have gone to school.
I've never been.
175
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,632
Look at me now,
I can't read, I can't write
176
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,836
and I can't get a job because of it.
177
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,629
I've got to work in textiles
so I don't do any kind of writing.
178
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,553
People laugh at you when you say
you can't read or write.
179
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,596
Ask 'em what they're laughing at.
180
00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:12,638
They don't realise
you come from a poor country.
181
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,870
They don't know what poor means
over here.
182
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,032
In Pakistan, you can't say
you're going on social security
183
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,998
or going to scratch on.
They haven't got such places.
184
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,435
Will you carry these bags for me?
They're heavy.
185
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:44,951
Act 2, Scene 2.
186
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,828
The girl's brother, aged 11 years,
has just been killed in a car accident.
187
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:50,638
The father has already got over it
188
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:52,790
but the rest of the family
are still upset.
189
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,839
The father's drunk.
They're all sat watching TV.
190
00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:01,232
I can't get over it, Mother. I'll kill
that bastard that killed my brother.
191
00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,357
Stop going on about it.
He's dead, it won't bring him back.
192
00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,477
Shut up, Dad. Don't argue with him,
you know what'll happen.
193
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,471
David, you're upsetting your mother.
194
00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:13,599
I'll thump that bastard in a minute.
His son's dead and he ain't bothered.
195
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,875
What kind of a father is that?
Can you tell me?
196
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:17,916
Take no notice. You know what he's like.
197
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,959
Will you all just shut your fucking
mouths now? I've heard enough.
198
00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:23,029
Enough!
199
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,236
Well, he's dead. Dead, do you hear that?
200
00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,515
Can't you get it
through your bastard head?
201
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,875
You know what'll happen
if you talk like this.
202
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:31,791
- Don't ask for my help.
- He's dead.
203
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,678
You'll be dead,
you thoughtless fucking bastard.
204
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,070
It's your son that's dead.
Your son is laid dead in that hospital
205
00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:39,559
and you don't fucking care.
206
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,438
You're not a man,
you're a thoughtless fucking animal.
207
00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:43,999
- Shut up.
- Do you wanna fight?
208
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:45,752
- I don't.
- Well, shut up then.
209
00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,196
- I cared for him, you know.
- I said shut up.
210
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,670
Look, I won't tell you again.
Have you seen what you're doing to her?
211
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:54,193
- Who?
- Mother.
212
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,078
You two better stop it
before you end up fighting.
213
00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,470
- Keep out of it, you black bastard!
- There's no need for that.
214
00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,552
Just get out of here
and don't come back again
215
00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:07,713
or I'll smash them fucking black brains
out of that fucking black head of yours!
216
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,872
- I didn't ask to be a Paki.
- Well, just keep your mouth shut.
217
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,918
- Keep out of my arguments.
- Stop it, David.
218
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,753
You know what he's like.
He don't care about owt,
219
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,230
only his beer and his so-called
fucking mates down the pub.
220
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,436
Oh, fuck off!
221
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,590
Don't you ever say that to her again.
222
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:26,636
Leave him alone, David.
223
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:28,995
He deserves it.
224
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:30,274
Come on.
225
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,116
I think it must have been
hard for her
226
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,668
to have a mixed-race child on a...
227
00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:57,709
on a whole-white and very racist estate.
228
00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,791
Erm...
229
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:01,472
But you know, she, er...
230
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,074
She could have done a better job
than what she did.
231
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,470
It was the consequences
of her actions, not mine.
232
00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:12,755
You know, she slept
with an Asian man, not me.
233
00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:16,355
I didn't ask to be conceived.
I didn't ask to be born.
234
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:20,274
Quite frankly, I'd have rather not been
born if I knew what I were coming into.
235
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,316
Take your fucking hands off me.
Fuck off!
236
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,516
I can fucking walk on my own.
237
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,835
I got locked up that night
through it.
238
00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:37,433
I were gonna kill him.
239
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,114
He wasn't bothered.
I had to get in the police car.
240
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,715
They put me in and I got back out.
I still remember that.
241
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,792
Our Andrea moved out.
That were the day our Steven got killed.
242
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:52,518
She moved out and she went to live
243
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,114
with Yousaf, Lorraine's dad,
244
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,589
and that's how she got caught
with her then.
245
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:07,033
I didn't like him, me.
When I found out, I were gonna kill him.
246
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:11,955
I'm not racist,
but I just couldn't do with Pakistanis.
247
00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:16,158
In them days, you just didn't agree
with it. Know what I mean?
248
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,789
And I didn't think Andrea
would ever do owt like that.
249
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:25,352
And she said, "Oh, he's alright.
He isn't like the other things."
250
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,228
But he didn't seem that bad. Once you
got to know him, he were alright.
251
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,596
And if you were black in Buttershaw
and you were a Pakistani,
252
00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,433
you'd have got driven out of your home.
253
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,909
Now it doesn't matter now, does it?
254
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,398
Act 2, Scene 6.
255
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,438
The lads are sat on a wall
talking about the girl.
256
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,590
Fucking Paki lover.
257
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,592
Look at her. You dirty girl! Dirty!
258
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,752
Oh, go on, carry on. I don't give a fuck
what you think about me.
259
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,877
Hey, I don't give a fuck
what you think about me.
260
00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,952
- Carry on. Look who's here.
- What's wrong?
261
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,032
These wanna know
why I'm going out with a Paki.
262
00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:05,156
What's it got to do with you
what she does?
263
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,038
- Why do you go out with white lasses?
- Better than a Paki.
264
00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:09,473
It's up to her what she does.
265
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,757
Don't you tell her otherwise
or I'll beat your fucking brains in.
266
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:14,876
What's it got to do
with any of yous anyway?
267
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,116
Tell her,
or I'll throw you over the wall.
268
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:20,679
We wanted to go out with you.
269
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,674
What, all fucking seven of you? What
do you think she is, a fucking robot?
270
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:27,749
Well, you asked.
271
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,638
Don't bother.
They're the fuck-it-and-leave-it type.
272
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:31,869
- We're not.
- You are.
273
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,349
- Fuck off before I belt you.
- She's a Paki lover!
274
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,000
You'll get your fucking neck broken
next time.
275
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:38,195
You're not big enough.
276
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:39,952
Yeah, you fucking bastard.
277
00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:45,157
You make me sick, all of you.
278
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,755
- You make me fucking sick.
- Take no notice of them.
279
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,229
The more you argue,
the more they'll have a go.
280
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:52,958
Come inside.
281
00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,711
I bet everybody was shocked,
her having an Asian baby.
282
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:01,756
Not being funny, I don't think they were
283
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,593
into Asians in them days as well.
284
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,238
Everywhere you're gonna go...
285
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,834
They call us white trash and...
286
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:14,233
I don't personally, but other whites,
some whites, the bad whites, give them,
287
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,517
call them, "Black bastards,
get back to your own country."
288
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,238
And I don't think it's right, me.
289
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,756
Act 2, Scene 5.
The girl getting pregnant.
290
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,035
The next day,
the girl went to the doctor's.
291
00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:27,395
She didn't ask the doctor
for an abortion.
292
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,710
She was 14 weeks pregnant.
293
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,872
The girl walked into the house.
Yousaf was waiting for her.
294
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,596
- Is he gonna let you have an abortion?
- He said I can't.
295
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,353
Bastard, he is. The white fuck.
296
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,351
The doctor won't give you an abortion
297
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,556
unless you've got a reason
not to want it.
298
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,995
Can't you tell them
the father's fucked off?
299
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:49,798
That's not a good enough reason.
300
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:53,228
What's that in your hand?
301
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,869
Oh, it's a letter from the hospital
for some tablets.
302
00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,793
- Tablets? What are they for?
- Headaches.
303
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,436
- I know how to make you get rid of it.
- How?
304
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,273
By pulling you off a chair
when you're not expecting it.
305
00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:08,920
- What makes you think that'll work?
- I know it will.
306
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,230
My friend did it to June
and she lost her baby.
307
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,359
- That doesn't mean it'll happen to me.
- If it don't, I'll find another way.
308
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,396
Why can't I just have it?
309
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,516
- It's better you didn't.
- Why not?
310
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,148
Because you won't be able to go to work.
311
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:29,673
Yeah, I know. So?
312
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,355
- Where will you get the money from?
- You, where do you think?
313
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,954
You're not getting any money off me.
I need mine.
314
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:42,948
Well, what if I got a childminder
and I went back to work myself?
315
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,756
Alright. I'll let you have it
on one condition:
316
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,751
That when the baby's three months old,
317
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,513
you'll get a childminder
and go back to work.
318
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,033
Alright then, you're on.
319
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,032
Well, she moved in with him,
did our Andrea. And then,
320
00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:06,671
it got to the stage
he were tying her up.
321
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,719
You know, to a chair,
so she couldn't get out.
322
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,678
Then, this particular day,
somebody knocked at the door,
323
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,912
he answered the door and that's how she
got away. And that's when she left him.
324
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,156
They know me as Lorraine.
The little white girl.
325
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,471
As far as they're concerned,
the only Pakistani I've got in me is,
326
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,632
my mum slept with a Pakistani
but I'm not Pakistani.
327
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:36,352
Erm, there's absolutely no logic
in that, but that's the way they see it.
328
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:42,913
You know, you don't have to be...
English to be part of a family.
329
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,554
You know, I can be Muslim
and still be theirs.
330
00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:52,828
We've lived here for about ten years.
331
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,399
Who's that? Pamela?
332
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,469
Yeah, nine or ten anyway.
333
00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:58,549
My granddad.
334
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,437
We don't all live here now.
335
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,911
There were ten of us all together,
nine now.
336
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,118
And have any other of
the children ever written anything?
337
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:10,758
No.
338
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,798
What do you feel about
Andrea writing a play?
339
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:14,949
I'm proud of her.
340
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,916
Mr Dunbar, where do you
think she gets the writing from?
341
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,560
- Why do you think...
- Not from me certainly.
342
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,315
I don't know, it's just what she learnt
in school, I should imagine.
343
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:39,912
Well, I suppose the film began
when we'd had about three previews.
344
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:42,519
More or less for the press.
345
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,388
So, this bloke Oscar Lewinstein
came along to see it.
346
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:47,595
He'd rung and asked me
347
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,831
if I'd be interested
in making it into a screenplay.
348
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,469
I mean, I think
you're thankful for the play
349
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,791
and then somebody comes
and asks you to do a screenplay.
350
00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,552
All sorts goes through your head.
351
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,269
My husband is not a bastard.
It's your daughter and her mates.
352
00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:04,952
Are you satisfied now?
353
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,873
Will you stop blaming me?
It's as much your fault.
354
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:08,995
It's all of you.
355
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:10,069
It's your husband.
356
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,311
It's your daughter.
If it's on a plate he's gonna take it.
357
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,595
He wouldn't be a man if he did owt else.
358
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,513
Don't blame us till you find out
what's been going on.
359
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,034
Go on, Kevin, just you tell 'em.
360
00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:23,998
Up the IRA!
361
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,198
Don't you stick your oar in
or I'll fucking flatten you, bastard.
362
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:29,998
You tell him, man, you tell him.
363
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,914
It's all your fault. If you had sex with
him, he wouldn't have to go elsewhere.
364
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,479
Keep your mouth shut.
365
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,712
Well, is that what you've been saying?
You dirty bastard.
366
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,030
See what you've caused?
Now you've done it.
367
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:45,829
- Oh, get fucked, will ya?
- I'll fuck you in a minute.
368
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,992
Send them on Manningham Lane.
It's the best place for 'em.
369
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,399
It's best place for you.
370
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,948
What gave you the idea
for the film?
371
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:54,553
Was it personal experiences
372
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,870
or just viewing life
on the estate or what?
373
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:03,354
Parts of it was and... parts wasn't.
374
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,237
But you sort of see...
375
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,676
You see things happening
on an estate, wherever you live.
376
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,832
I mean, I don't find it shocking
to write about it.
377
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,196
I have had a few reactions
378
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,431
but I don't think
it's nothing to worry about.
379
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:23,594
You know, I've only had, you know
like about three people complain.
380
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,716
It's not bad off a whole estate, is it?
381
00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:39,429
At one time
she was living at Keighley.
382
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,308
But she didn't live there for long.
As she said, "I'll be back."
383
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,118
You know, to Buttershaw.
384
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,039
That's when she met Lisa's dad,
that's how she got caught with Lisa.
385
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,073
Because they've all different fathers,
haven't they?
386
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,311
Oh, me mum must have picked
some right saddos, I swear down.
387
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,638
Men twice her age or near enough.
388
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:11,394
Jim and my dad were round about
the same age. They're 50-summat.
389
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:24,550
Me and Andrea went out for about,
how long? Six years.
390
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,269
And had a child called Andrew.
391
00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:31,557
Erm, took it from there, really.
392
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,349
She wanted to stay down
and live with me
393
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,910
and we tried that and she says no,
394
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,994
she wanted her own house
because she had Lisa and Lorraine.
395
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,638
He's a strange sort of character is Jim.
396
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,709
Because I never thought of him as a
bad person when we were younger, at all.
397
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,313
I mean if he used to tell us off,
398
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,119
I mean, obviously
we didn't like him then.
399
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,718
Wiggy. We all called him Wiggy.
400
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,356
He weren't a bad lad. I think he helped
Andrea out more than owt else.
401
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,749
I don't know if you know Jim. Well,
he was, erm, he were a twat with kids.
402
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:29,119
What he used to do with them is
dump 'em off, stick 'em in his car,
403
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,478
put their clothes in a bin liner
and drop 'em off at me sister's
404
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,996
and then just drive off.
Not say, "I've dropped the kids off."
405
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,358
That were only Lorraine and Lisa.
It weren't Andrew.
406
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,511
It were just them two all the time.
407
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,948
Where our house were,
you could see the bus stop.
408
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,679
Sometimes you'd see 'em
stood there with bin liners
409
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,079
cos Jim had kicked 'em out.
410
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,277
They were having to go back up
to their auntie's at Buttershaw.
411
00:27:57,360 --> 00:27:59,794
Ann and Steve,
when we lived with Jim,
412
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:01,552
they used to live across the road.
413
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,313
Ann must've thought we was crazy,
cos all she could see
414
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,960
were these three kids
waving out of the window.
415
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,554
We were always in the house,
we didn't play out.
416
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,428
I don't know how, but we started
going over there and I loved it.
417
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:18,036
I didn't get called golliwog,
had lovely food, got cooked for,
418
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:20,839
had loads of area to play,
loads of toys.
419
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,355
We were always over there every day,
straight from school on a weekend,
420
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,432
probably sleep there all the time.
421
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,114
Well, in my eyes, I classed them
as me family anyway.
422
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,556
So, they're always there,
no matter what.
423
00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:39,830
I see them as just like
my mum and dad.
424
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:41,512
They've always been there for me
425
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,158
and I've always gone on holiday
426
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,800
with Ann and Steve, over the years.
427
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,350
Erm, yeah, they've played
a very big part in my life.
428
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,111
And they always used to say to me,
429
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,839
"You're gonna grow up to be
such a pretty young lady."
430
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,150
They says, "You're so pretty."
431
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,074
And I used to think, "They don't know
what they're talking about."
432
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,039
They was right,
I grew up to be very pretty.
433
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,033
And, erm, they've been there
for me ever since.
434
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,634
I remember Mum fighting with Jim
all the time.
435
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,713
Getting stiletto shoes
and proper clawing him with 'em.
436
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,156
Erm, I vaguely remember her
falling through a glass window
437
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,471
and having all them stitches
in her face.
438
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,437
Yeah, that happened down
at Great Horton Road.
439
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,877
She were absolutely stone-eyed.
440
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,069
I was looking after Lisa and Andrew.
441
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,515
Her and Jim was out at the pub,
as usual.
442
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,238
Erm...
443
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,756
And I heard it from upstairs.
Came running down.
444
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,751
I can't remember how many stitches
she had, but she had loads.
445
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:07,996
She tripped over and fell straight
into the bottom pane of glass.
446
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,071
Cut her face and everything.
447
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:15,029
I phoned the ambulance
and we got it all in, sorted it out.
448
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,749
Back then as a child,
I knew she drank a lot.
449
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,115
If she could spend
every single day in the pub,
450
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,794
she would spend
every single day in the pub.
451
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,476
Today, as an adult,
I'd say she was an alcoholic.
452
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,475
She wasn't functioning, she was just an
alcoholic. You know, she was very sick.
453
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,594
That's where I spent my small years,
in the pub.
454
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,148
The Beacon, Cap and Bells.
455
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,435
With my mum.
If anybody left a drink, I'd drink 'em.
456
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,479
You know, just all the little
lager and blacks that were left over.
457
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:01,675
Boring.
458
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:02,909
You know, if I was lucky
459
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,310
I'd get 20p and I'd go to the shop
and buy a packet of custard creams.
460
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,631
Best Buy custard creams used to be
19 pence. I'll never forget it.
461
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,677
She used to go to the pub
in the afternoon as well
462
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,797
and this little old man Willie
used to come pick us up to school
463
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,155
and then go back to Jim's.
464
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,550
So, I wouldn't say that
she liked to drink as much
465
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,790
as what people tried to make out.
466
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,917
You see stuff in the papers,
it were drink that killed her,
467
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,070
but it wasn't the drink that killed her.
468
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,913
It were just one of them things
that happens.
469
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,072
I'm not like Willie.
470
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,833
Rita, Sue and Bob Two... Three.
471
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,389
She were like my dad,
dinnertime, nights.
472
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,519
Come home dinnertime, sleep,
back out at night.
473
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,512
Oh, yeah, but she did that for years.
474
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,597
Every day.
475
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,434
We used to say, "I don't know
how you do it. A young lass like you."
476
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,353
Especially with her having kids an' all.
477
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,715
Yeah, she liked her drinks.
478
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,999
She ended up with a lot of friends when
she got a bit of money out of the film.
479
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,036
She didn't get that much really,
480
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,591
but she had a lot of cling-ons.
Cos them days, no one had nowt.
481
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,040
I remember it
when we first moved on.
482
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,076
Grass ain't like it were now.
483
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,994
It used to be... Well,
the council didn't cut it as much.
484
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,789
So it used to be right tall
and all kids could hide in it.
485
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,509
I mean, I can even remember myself
when my mum used to shout us.
486
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,238
And we dug down in the grass.
487
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,358
It was a red-hot sunny day.
488
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,274
Erm, and the grass was all
way overgrown and stuff.
489
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,511
We'd been playing hide and seek
and my Auntie Pamela shouted,
490
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,558
"Lorraine, it's your dad.
Lorraine, it's your dad."
491
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,030
And, erm... I was happy.
492
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,914
And he wanted to take me
for the weekend.
493
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,555
I think we were all shocked
when he turned up.
494
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,437
He asked Andrea if he could take her,
495
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,830
you know, for the day,
and she said no.
496
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,469
She said, "You're not taking her,
just in case you ran off with her."
497
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:03,475
He bought me loads
of clothes and when we got to Jim's,
498
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,199
Mum just ripped them all up,
cut them up.
499
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,829
She said, "I'm not having my daughter
dressed as no Paki."
500
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:11,353
And, er, ripped the lot up
501
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,956
because it was, like, velvet dresses
with frills on and stuff.
502
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,759
My dad promised he'd come
every weekend after that,
503
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,354
and every weekend I used
to look out of the window
504
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,237
and every weekend he never come.
505
00:34:33,720 --> 00:34:36,712
"Dear Max,
I'm sorry about the other agreements
506
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,394
but to be honest
I really forgot about them."
507
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,948
"I have to move them out of the way
of the kids."
508
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,350
"Lisa seems to have a fascination
for them and hides them."
509
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:46,998
"No, I'm not still with Jim."
510
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,514
"I haven't got much time
for him any more."
511
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,558
"Anyway, I've got so used
to doing what I want to do
512
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,428
that I'd rather not have someone around
to try and tell me I should."
513
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,159
"He was always saying,
'Do this, do that."'
514
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:03,870
"I never did like that, but that's
besides the point. Love, Andrea."
515
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:08,595
Keith, they called him. Keith.
516
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,119
He were nice to the kids.
He had time for the kids
517
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,350
and she'd known him
for quite a long time,
518
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,831
but sort of picked up with him
when she fell out with Jim.
519
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,992
I don't know what the falling-out
were about, you know.
520
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,833
He was a stable influence.
521
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:29,471
Yeah, and she seemed better in herself.
Her confidence levels were better.
522
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,274
Mum had come home drunk.
She was with Keith then.
523
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,999
We wasn't living with Jim.
524
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,550
And she come in and she opened
the door, just Mum being Mum.
525
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,315
And, erm, she thought I was asleep.
526
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,278
I heard my mum every single time
she come home. I was aware.
527
00:35:54,720 --> 00:35:56,676
I just... I pretended I was still asleep
528
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,228
cos I might have got in trouble
if I was awake.
529
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:04,758
And, erm, they was talking about me,
Lisa and Andrew,
530
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,229
and just from nowhere, I just, erm...
531
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,999
Well, she just said
that she'd regretted having me.
532
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:14,399
That...
533
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,874
And she'd regretted
sleeping with an Asian man.
534
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,873
She couldn't love me to the same level
that she loved Lisa and Andrew.
535
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:26,796
Might have been innocent on Mum's part,
536
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,590
but it was portrayed
as very racist on my part,
537
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,070
considering I was the only one
that had colour.
538
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,472
You know, so, erm... You can't say
you love two kids more than another.
539
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:53,877
She didn't write a play
for about seven months.
540
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:59,512
She didn't want to know anything.
She just totally left it.
541
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,912
She was depressed
and things were catching on.
542
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,950
Everybody getting on to her.
543
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:16,311
Well, she couldn't sleep and she did,
she used to phone me up and say,
544
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,359
"Look, I can't sleep." And I'd say,
"Look, do you want me to come up?"
545
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:26,037
And I used... She says, "Yeah."
So I used to go up and stay the night,
546
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:32,389
sleep with her and she used
to calm down. Cuddle up, calm down.
547
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,675
And that were it and then she slept.
548
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,274
That week before she died
she'd come here and say,
549
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,670
"Have you got any tablets?"
And I'd say, "What for?"
550
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:01,159
She said, "Headache."
551
00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:04,550
She said, "I've got this headache
and I can't get shut of it."
552
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,477
And that were it with her. I thought...
553
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,911
Cos we were really shocked
that day she died.
554
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,833
Yeah, that day, when she died, yeah.
555
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,309
She asked me to go to the pub
with her and I said no.
556
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,277
And, you know, I wish I had've done.
557
00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:34,190
Erm, I think she collapsed
in the Beacon pub.
558
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,317
I don't think she actually died
in the Beacon pub.
559
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,231
I think, well, she might've done.
560
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,709
But they pronounced her dead
at the hospital,
561
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,032
erm, some hours later, or it was
some hours later before we found out.
562
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,677
But she died in her home,
didn't she, the Beacon pub?
563
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:52,990
She practically lived there anyway.
564
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,475
And it were some sort of embolism.
565
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:19,680
Totally unrelated to, erm,
to any drink or owt like that.
566
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,557
I went in to see her, with the kids.
567
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:34,476
And we were talking
and I saw a little,
568
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:39,680
oh, it gives me tears now,
eye drop running down from her eye,
569
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,957
and I said, "Andrew, your mum's crying."
570
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,634
He says, "No." I said, "There, tears."
571
00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:47,438
And he says, "Oh, yeah, yeah."
572
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:52,036
I said, "You know, your mum knows you
now, she sees you, she can hear you."
573
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,759
And that were it, really.
574
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,554
She'd died and she hadn't
bought us one Christmas present.
575
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:18,278
I was so angry.
576
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,433
Not one single Christmas present.
It was only five days before Christmas.
577
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:27,548
She had the audacity to drop dead,
so I can't even tell her how I feel.
578
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,755
To this day I won't have anybody
say a bad word against me mum.
579
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:41,756
No way. Lorraine does, but I think part
of it is because she does miss her,
580
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,479
but she's got a mad way of showing it.
581
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,313
I don't recall
crying at my mum's funeral.
582
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,073
Not at all.
583
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,597
Erm, I can just remember thinking,
"It's over."
584
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,032
You know, that's it,
things can only get better now.
585
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,832
Have you read the play
or are you going to see it?
586
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:53,194
No, I haven't read it. No.
587
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,751
But are you all going
down to London to see it?
588
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,037
Well, the wife is
and my other daughter Pamela,
589
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:02,792
but I'm at home with the children.
590
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,190
Mrs Dunbar, have you
read it or will it be a surprise?
591
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:07,474
I've read it.
592
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,553
So it won't be so much
of a surprise when you see it?
593
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,315
No, but it'll, you know,
be summat different, won't it?
594
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,719
Do you hope Andrea
will write more plays?
595
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,872
Yes, I hope she'll make
a success of herself.
596
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,399
I think she wrote with great wit
and great perception
597
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,835
about the things happening round her.
598
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:34,675
It's a tragedy that she never wrote the
plays of her maturity, comparatively.
599
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,031
I think after Christmas,
that's when they sat us down
600
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:47,797
and asked us who we wanted to be with
and where we wanted to stay.
601
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,077
Obviously I'd always been close
to me grandma anyway,
602
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,755
so I decided that I wanted
to be with me grandma.
603
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:56,558
Andrew wanted to be with his dad
604
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,438
and Lorraine went to live
with my Auntie Janine.
605
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,717
Cos they used to get, like, moved.
606
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:08,074
Erm, like, we were moved about a bit,
really, as kids.
607
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:09,673
Erm...
608
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,918
But that's probably why I don't
remember much of me childhood, really.
609
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,239
Everything was weird, and then I got
separated from Lisa and Andrew
610
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:26,958
and that was odd.
611
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:31,556
Being the person that had looked after
them for so many years, it was hard.
612
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,310
My Auntie Janine, she was what, 18?
613
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,437
I was 11 years old so there was only
seven years' difference.
614
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,078
I used to go down to the Woodside Estate
just next door to Buttershaw.
615
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,913
Had some friends there.
There's a guy that I fancied.
616
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:53,357
I wanted to be big and hard and show him
that I could be grown up and stuff.
617
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:54,873
Erm...
618
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,994
And I started smoking bong buckets.
619
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,594
I couldn't bear it there no longer.
620
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,911
I tried self-harming,
I've still got the scar for it.
621
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,755
I took two overdoses and said,
"No, I'm not going back."
622
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:16,470
And Steve and Ann agreed to foster me.
623
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,475
Life got great.
624
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,948
I can't remember
if she were 12 or 13.
625
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,077
One day Steven's mum and dad
were babysitting.
626
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:32,991
When we come home she'd done a runner.
627
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,117
Blown, had Lorraine, gone,
back up to Buttershaw.
628
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:37,189
And she said,
629
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:38,918
"My auntie's gonna do my bedroom
630
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,355
and do this and that
and give me this and that."
631
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,910
So off she went and I went, "Well,
fair enough." So off she went back up.
632
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,117
And then, again, she took
another overdose or something
633
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,351
and social services
brought her back down here again.
634
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:56,958
So, then they said, "Well, she obviously
doesn't want to go back there."
635
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,430
"She has a choice of either
going in a home or, well,
636
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,078
do you want to look after her?"
637
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,630
So, she said, "Yeah, I want
to stop here." So we said, "Yeah."
638
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:08,830
By the time I went to live
with Ann and Steve,
639
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,799
I was smoking cannabis every weekend.
I used to get spending money and stuff.
640
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,873
I used to be in the park
drinking with all the lads.
641
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:18,279
I had short back and sides.
642
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,999
I wasn't into feminine things
because that's not,
643
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,311
that's not what I knew.
But I soon learnt.
644
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:32,868
Act 2, Scene 3. The girl is sat
on the bus talking to a friend.
645
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:35,797
Going out with Paul tonight.
646
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:37,871
- Who?
- Paul. He's my latest.
647
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,191
- Where did you meet him?
- Our Tony's party. It's his best mate.
648
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,635
- What's he like?
- What, in looks or in bed?
649
00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:46,951
- Either, if you're gonna tell me.
- He's great in bed.
650
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,828
Certainly knows what to do with a lass.
So funny, the first night, though.
651
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:52,990
- Do you want to know?
- I'm listening.
652
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,992
Well, we were just talking
and we were well drunk.
653
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,709
He started on about the girls he'd
screwed and who he'd like to screw.
654
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,155
He said, "Are you coming
to the toilet with me?"
655
00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:04,356
I thought he were joking
so I just laughed,
656
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:05,793
but he weren't, so I went.
657
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,678
- Where, in the toilet?
- Yeah. He had a piss.
658
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:10,990
- I bet you're having me on.
- No, seriously.
659
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,150
- I held it while he had a piss.
- Give over.
660
00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:16,232
Honest. But then we had it off.
661
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,517
- Weren't it a bit cramped?
- Not really, we did it standing up.
662
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,750
The only problem was
it kept slipping out.
663
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,513
- What did?
- His cock. What do you think?
664
00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:30,074
- Are you sure you're not having me on?
- Seriously, swear on my baby's life.
665
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,549
How is your young 'un?
Ain't seen her for a while.
666
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,153
She's alright. She's OK.
667
00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:37,073
- How old is she now?
- She's five months, nearly six.
668
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:38,912
She's just come out of hospital.
669
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,073
- Why? What's wrong with her?
- She had impetigo, quite bad as well.
670
00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:45,870
Fares, please.
671
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:47,951
- Ten, please.
- You full fare.
672
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,429
- Me, no.
- You how old?
673
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:52,750
- Nearly 15.
- 15 full fare.
674
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,035
I'm bleedin' nearly 15. I'm not yet.
675
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,556
You know, by the time I was 15, I'd
started to develop as a young woman
676
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:03,919
and I was getting male attention,
you know. Erm...
677
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:11,910
But I was naughty with it.
From getting raped at 14...
678
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,958
...I just turned into a bitch,
you know, erm...
679
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:23,194
Back then I didn't know that I'd made
a decision to just use and abuse men.
680
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,955
You know, the way I felt
used and abused by them.
681
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,435
And then it just...
It just went downhill very fast.
682
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:39,833
I started drinking at every opportunity,
smoking weed every single day.
683
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,674
By the time I was 15,
I used to go up to the Buttershaw Estate
684
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,639
and I used to walk up from Great Horton
because it's, like, 20 minutes' walk.
685
00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:51,599
And, erm, I got introduced
to crack cocaine.
686
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,713
When I first took it
I said, "There's nothing to that."
687
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:56,994
So I kept doing it.
688
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,277
They said, "The more you have it,
the more effects you'll get."
689
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,351
They wasn't kidding.
690
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:06,353
What I soon found out is taking crack,
you need something to come down.
691
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,954
Erm, so then I started taking heroin.
692
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:17,153
Basically it went from,
erm, dope, to acid
693
00:48:17,240 --> 00:48:20,471
and then all the lads on the estate
were having mad turns.
694
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,996
They used to hang round in a big gang
where they used to go to the woods
695
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,150
and pick magic mushrooms and all that.
696
00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:28,356
So that were, like, all the acid scene.
697
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:32,831
And then it went to ecstasy and then
from ecstasy, it went to heroin.
698
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:40,512
I was just an outcast.
699
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:42,955
"She ain't got no mum
and she's a Paki and..."
700
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:48,673
Yeah, even through to upper school
I got bullied. Ann and Steve...
701
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,035
Steve used to have
to pick me up from school.
702
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,032
They used to have to let me out
five minutes early.
703
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,235
I was working at a place
with a guy called Dave and Tracy.
704
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,835
They were supervisors.
I got a supervising job there
705
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,833
and, erm, they was heroin
and crack cocaine users.
706
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,398
And from 17, I never put it down.
707
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,750
I couldn't get up at six o'clock
in the morning and keep a job down.
708
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,479
My behaviour was very erratic.
709
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,996
I wasn't a day person any more,
I was a night person.
710
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,238
I said I was 18,
I went to work in a house.
711
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:42,396
Erm, in Huddersfield.
712
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,040
There was a guy in the house
with me all day.
713
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,795
I had to man the phones,
give out my description,
714
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,314
take them upstairs,
do the business, let them go,
715
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:56,474
give the man his money and I'd keep
my money. I used to make hundreds.
716
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,393
It's the easiest way for a woman
to make money, innit?
717
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:04,110
Physically, it's not, it's not,
erm, demanding. Mentally...
718
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,720
I've seen girls hang themselves over it.
719
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:13,751
You know, erm...
720
00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:20,632
But I suppose that's just how it is,
innit?
721
00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:23,393
Erm, I don't really want
to talk about it.
722
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,069
She rung me one day and I 1471 'd it
723
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:35,233
and it were summat like
Angels, erm... I can't remember.
724
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,791
And I rung it and it were...
it were a massage parlour.
725
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,269
That were one reason
why I knew she were there.
726
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:44,351
What else would she be there for?
727
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:48,797
Erm, Lisa had once said something about
somebody had come to her house
728
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,190
with some coats
that Lorraine had nicked.
729
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:53,349
Er, when did I know?
730
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,796
When some prostitutes came
on to the Arbor
731
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,917
looking for her cos she'd pinched
some Tommy Hilfiger coats.
732
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,150
They pulled me up
at the bottom of the street
733
00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:03,912
and asked me if I knew who she were.
734
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,719
I thought this looks like trouble
so I said no.
735
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,439
And that's when she told us everything
736
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,149
because she just told us she were
working at Manchester Airport.
737
00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:16,437
And then she came back with all
these nice clothes and I thought,
738
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,751
"Oh, yeah, she must be getting
a decent wage."
739
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:22,752
I were even wearing the clothes me sen.
740
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,833
Used to say to her,
"Why do you sell your body to people?"
741
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:30,549
She went, "For me drugs,
how else do you expect me to get 'em?"
742
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,599
OK, my first pregnancy.
743
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:51,796
I was living in...
744
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:57,192
...a hostel.
745
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:00,833
I had various different partners.
746
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:09,671
I moved from the hostel and I managed
to go into a young persons' project.
747
00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:16,030
For ages I wanted a child and then
I'd completely gone off the idea,
748
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,588
then I knew I was pregnant.
749
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:21,152
I told everybody I was pregnant.
750
00:52:21,240 --> 00:52:24,676
I told Ann and Steve I was pregnant,
I told the family I was pregnant.
751
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:34,309
No, I was a good parent.
I was... I was a good parent.
752
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:38,359
Social services did their little
assessment and everything was fine.
753
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:43,116
He was well catered for, but this time
round, I was on a methadone programme.
754
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,829
I didn't want a child. You know,
I could barely cope with the one I had.
755
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:50,796
He was, like, eight month or something.
756
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:55,078
So I said, "The only thing I can do is
move back to Buttershaw Estate,
757
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,435
be nearer the family
where they can help me."
758
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:01,272
I was too far gone.
759
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:08,710
Even with the kids, the first two,
760
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,713
she didn't have food in the cupboards.
She didn't have baby milk.
761
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:25,399
Erm...
762
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:35,156
It's probably one of the hardest things
any mother could ever admit.
763
00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:36,798
Erm...
764
00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:40,673
I couldn't look after 'em.
765
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:50,958
I mean, the two that got took off of
her, she had chance to get them back.
766
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:54,396
But the drugs were more important.
They said if she got off the drugs
767
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:56,789
and got rid of the bloke
that she were with,
768
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,156
she'd stand a chance
of getting them back, but she didn't.
769
00:54:04,240 --> 00:54:06,993
You know, there were so many
drug addicts on the estate.
770
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,640
They knew what you were doing,
where you were going,
771
00:54:09,720 --> 00:54:11,711
who you were ringing.
772
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,759
If I bought tinfoil, my Auntie Pamela
would know about it within five minutes.
773
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:19,594
I used to have to get other people
to go in the shop for me and stuff.
774
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:20,874
Erm...
775
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:26,033
The only person that stayed normal
with me at that point was my grandma.
776
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:32,196
I don't think any of the family
realised how much I loved my grandma.
777
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,714
Regardless of what I were doing
or how bad it got
778
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,360
or how down and out I got,
779
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:42,753
erm, there was only my grandma
I cared about. Because she was lovely.
780
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:47,592
And she'd give you what she could
and help as much as she could.
781
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:51,958
She had time to talk to you.
You know, and...
782
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:55,271
In her own little way,
she showed her affection in that way.
783
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:57,032
None of the rest of the family did.
784
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:01,432
It was all swearing and cursing and
shouting. My grandma wasn't like that.
785
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,637
Late '90s it were. It were
just all them high-rise flats.
786
00:55:16,720 --> 00:55:19,837
I don't know, it were mad.
There were just lads just running in,
787
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:23,595
booting doors in, ripping boilers out.
You know, in empty flats and that.
788
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,433
It got to that stage
so there were no sense of community,
789
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:30,229
whereas from years before you could see
the community. Do you know...
790
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:39,914
In 2000, 20 years on from
The Arbor and Rita, Sue and Bob Too,
791
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:44,039
I went back to Buttershaw,
to interview people for a new play
792
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:47,908
that showed what had changed there
since the early '80s.
793
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,390
The play was called A State Affair,
a verbatim play,
794
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:55,359
where the actors spoke the words
of the interviewees they had met.
795
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:59,638
The final words of the play were those
of Andrea's own daughter, Lorraine.
796
00:55:59,720 --> 00:56:05,477
I don't know why I was involved
with A State Affair to be honest.
797
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:07,710
Erm...
798
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:14,035
To me A State Affair was a progression
of Rita, Sue and Bob Too.
799
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:19,670
It highlighted how the Arbor
800
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:22,513
and the Buttershaw Estate had changed
801
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:26,388
and how the people living
on the estate had changed.
802
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,153
You know, erm,
803
00:56:29,240 --> 00:56:37,113
from drug addiction to a serious
lack of community and communication.
804
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:39,714
How it all broke down.
805
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,234
That's really all it is to me.
806
00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:47,710
There's two moments
when we did A State Affair
807
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,758
that'll stick in my mind forever.
808
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:53,400
One was when we did it
at the Soho Theatre
809
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:55,471
and Lorraine was in the audience
810
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:57,630
and there was this big speech
at the end,
811
00:56:57,720 --> 00:57:01,190
where she talks about her mum,
talks about Andrea,
812
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:06,308
and I just looked at Lorraine, just
tears streaming down Lorraine's face.
813
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,676
I was on stage thinking,
"Keep it together, don't start crying."
814
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:11,318
My eyes were welling up as well.
815
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:14,153
I was thinking,
"I've got to keep this together here."
816
00:57:14,240 --> 00:57:17,596
And then the second time
was when Lisa Dunbar,
817
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:20,638
Andrea's second child,
818
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:22,312
who was in the audience,
819
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:26,996
screaming and crying,
going, "No, I can't, no."
820
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:30,709
And leaving the theatre and people
in the audience going, "Shh."
821
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,634
This audience telling her to shush.
They thought it was someone being noisy.
822
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:36,756
If only they knew the story.
823
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:42,437
"If my mum wrote the play now,
Rita and Sue would be smackheads,
824
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:45,557
on crack as well
and working the red-light district,
825
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:48,154
sleeping with everybody
and anybody for money."
826
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:53,394
"Bob would probably be injecting heroin,
taking loads of tablets as well."
827
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:56,677
"As a piece of writing
Rita, Sue and Bob Too is OK."
828
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,320
"As a piece of autobiography,
it's disgusting."
829
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:01,960
"She made herself look a right tart."
830
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:05,032
"OK, she's got three different kids
to three different men,
831
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:08,271
that's bad enough,
but to tell everyone..."
832
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:11,636
"It was coming up to her memoriam.
She'd been dead eight years."
833
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:15,793
"Shaq was trying to persuade me to go
to the grave with flowers. I couldn't."
834
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:19,713
"One night when she thought
I was asleep I heard her say
835
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:24,032
she wished, she had thought...
she..." Sorry.
836
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:26,998
"I heard her say she wished
she'd had an abortion with me."
837
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:28,672
"How could she say that?"
838
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:32,070
"Every day I feel hurt,
pain, anger, hate."
839
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:35,436
"That's why I went on heroin,
to block out those feelings."
840
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:49,471
I didn't agree with anything she said.
841
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,870
She were more or less blaming my mum
for her being on drugs.
842
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:55,349
I wouldn't ever use me mum dying
as an excuse
843
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:59,797
for anything that I've ever done
in my life, really.
844
00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:03,395
Cos we've all got
to learn by our mistakes.
845
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:09,154
To me she were bang out of order
what she were saying.
846
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:12,835
I wouldn't have even spoke about
my mother like that. Simple as.
847
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:17,431
I'm ashamed for her saying that
848
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:22,196
because at the end of the day,
me mum is who she is.
849
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:24,794
Erm, it kicked off a riot.
850
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:26,677
Well, not a riot, but I mean
851
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:30,753
a lot of the family were disgusted
by the words what Lorraine had said.
852
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:36,832
I know where Lorraine came from
when she were saying that
853
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:41,277
because Lorraine ended up having drugs.
854
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:42,793
She had a couple of kids,
855
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:48,557
kids were taken off her
and that's what's happened, really.
856
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:59,592
End of 2001, I went homeless
and then met Johnny...
857
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:04,235
Otherwise known as Kitten. I was 21.
858
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:09,276
He was lovely, absolutely lovely.
859
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:16,234
Had money, smoked drugs,
got on, had a good sex life.
860
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:18,993
Erm, he was attractive,
861
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:22,868
funny, caring, gentle, loving,
862
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:26,475
but within a month that had all gone.
863
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:32,157
He was just the most vile, most violent
creature I ever come across.
864
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:35,232
I got forced onto the street.
I didn't do it for long.
865
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:39,233
Erm, not a nice experience.
866
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:43,397
Oh, the things that man did to me.
867
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,278
He was committing robberies,
left, right and centre,
868
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:48,954
but he was feeding my addiction.
869
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:52,715
But he was crack psychosed
to the eyeballs.
870
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:55,189
Erm, I didn't dare breathe
in front of him.
871
01:00:55,280 --> 01:01:00,912
Erm, he got me pregnant,
swore down blind it weren't his baby.
872
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:05,915
Erm, the baby went
into my fallopian tubes.
873
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:09,550
Then he kept beating me up,
874
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:13,553
so it must have just come out
through the beatings.
875
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:19,397
And, erm, then he got a screwdriver
876
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:24,156
and abused me with a screwdriver,
internally as well as physically,
877
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:28,597
and then raped me
and when I sat up the baby came out.
878
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:33,634
He... He'd imprisoned me
for, like, 12 days.
879
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:36,632
No drugs, no food, no toilet.
880
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:39,632
The only thing I had was water.
881
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:42,635
After 12 days I managed to get out.
882
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:50,156
I went to the doctor's cos all this
had happened with the pregnancy.
883
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:53,915
He found me at the doctor's.
He came back, out of the blue.
884
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,356
He dragged me into hospital.
He was saying, "She's been in a fight."
885
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:00,113
He went up the stairs before me.
And I just couldn't...
886
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:01,633
I says, "He's beating me up."
887
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:04,359
I ran down the stairs
and locked myself in the toilet.
888
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:08,353
He kicked the door off
in front of these two guys.
889
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:11,910
Got my head and started smashing it
on this toilet seat.
890
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,230
The guys rang the police.
891
01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:18,359
As soon as he heard the sirens, he left.
892
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:22,069
I ended up passed out on the floor.
893
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:27,439
They caught him about five month later
894
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:29,954
in a completely different town.
895
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:36,233
This man locked her in
with no toilet or nowt.
896
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:39,835
Erm, and I think she'd been beat up
897
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:42,992
and I think it were a caretaker
or something that got her out.
898
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:44,877
That lad got quite a few year for that
899
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:47,428
cos he'd already done summat
similar to it.
900
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:52,155
He ended up going to prison for
Section 18 and false imprisonment.
901
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:02,151
Act 2, Scene 8.
902
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:04,754
She was arguing with Yousaf
for two days.
903
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,115
He beat her during them two days.
904
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:09,191
She couldn't stand it no more.
905
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:12,238
The girl was sat with a neighbour
talking to her.
906
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:14,675
I think if it were me,
I'd stab the bastard.
907
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:16,557
I thought about it but I daren't.
908
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:19,029
You can't just let him
carry on like that.
909
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:22,430
- But I can't hit him back.
- Why not? I would.
910
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:24,829
Easier said than done.
Before you know it,
911
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:28,674
he's got me on the floor and he's
knocking ten tons of shit out of me.
912
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:30,955
I suppose it's hard
cos he's bigger than you.
913
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:33,508
I don't think that makes a difference.
914
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:36,319
I hit him back once
but I landed off the worst for it.
915
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:38,789
- You frightened of losing the baby?
- Oh, yeah.
916
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:44,318
Every time he comes near me,
I think, "Oh, what have I done now?"
917
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:47,392
To look at him you'd think
butter wouldn't melt in his mouth.
918
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:48,913
A lot of people say that to me.
919
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:52,788
He's so quiet and speaks
dead nice to you, using his manners.
920
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:54,836
You don't see many round here using 'em.
921
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:57,036
He's a bastard, really.
922
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:00,271
He likes for people to think
that he's nice, and a lot do,
923
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:04,476
but I'd love those people
to come round to ours when he starts.
924
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:07,552
- Has he done it to you before?
- It's his favourite thing.
925
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:09,312
He's always done it.
926
01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:12,915
What gets me is he doesn't stop
until I'm out cold on the floor.
927
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:14,558
He's a bastard.
928
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:16,676
I think I'm gonna have to leave him.
929
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:19,718
- When?
- As soon as possible.
930
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:22,758
- He's terrible. He's going nuts.
- What do you mean?
931
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:25,638
He's hitting me that much,
I can't stand it any more.
932
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:27,199
I feel I've got to get out.
933
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:30,875
- I've got to get away from him.
- What, for good or just for a while?
934
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,918
For good for me, and this baby.
935
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:37,276
I've got to get away for good.
936
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:41,069
I mean, if he's hitting me really bad
now, what's he going to do to the baby?
937
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:44,118
- He wouldn't harm a baby.
- Oh, but he would.
938
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:47,351
I won't give him the chance
to lay his hands on that.
939
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:51,558
If he can do it to me while I'm pregnant
he can do it to the baby once it's born.
940
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:05,836
2002, I went to jail.
941
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:11,631
I was at the scene
of a guy robbing a woman.
942
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:14,518
The police knew I hadn't
actually committed the robbery
943
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:17,876
and all they wanted was his name
but I was too scared to give his name
944
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:20,872
so I ended up pleading guilty
to the robbery
945
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:23,520
and getting two years, seven months.
946
01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:34,438
In fact I can honestly say, the best
time of my life were that sentence,
947
01:05:34,520 --> 01:05:36,033
where it was easy.
948
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:41,390
It's just nice, no worries,
no freedom, no abuse.
949
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,711
Erm, being cared for.
950
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:48,918
Because freedom had give me
nothing but headache and trouble.
951
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:57,674
I was still using heroin throughout
that sentence. I was getting it sent in.
952
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:00,149
It's not hard to get drugs in prison.
953
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:12,832
Act 2, Scene 9.
954
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:16,071
This is a scene of the girl
and Maureen in the refuge.
955
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:19,590
I'll be glad when I've had this baby.
956
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:21,955
What you gonna call it?
957
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:26,033
Julie, if it's a girl, or Lorraine.
958
01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:28,793
And Jason or Christopher
if it's a lad.
959
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:31,631
I'm glad we got away from that dump.
960
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:37,157
It may be a dump, but I quite miss it.
961
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:38,389
I miss my mum
962
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:41,829
and all the kids
963
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:46,391
and funnily enough,
I quite miss me dad and all me mates.
964
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:49,916
And it's a bit quiet here, innit?
965
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:07,473
Within 30 days of getting out of prison,
I was pregnant with Harris.
966
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:13,313
Cos I let her stay here
when she got out of prison.
967
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:17,518
She'd just found out she were pregnant
with Harris after she'd been here.
968
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:20,160
And she didn't take a suitcase with her
969
01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:23,232
and she'd left some clean clothes
on the side.
970
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:25,914
So I went to put 'em in a suitcase.
I weren't looking.
971
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:29,709
I seen a chemist bag with one of
my kitchen spoons hanging out of it.
972
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:31,518
So I thought, "What's this?"
973
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:34,114
A dirty great big needle
hanging out of that bag
974
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:36,236
and there was still heroin on the spoon.
975
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:40,074
So obviously I went mad. I wrapped it up
in a tea towel, put it in the bag
976
01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:43,357
and I went all the way to Bradford
because I were gonna kill her.
977
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,910
Cos my little one could have picked
that up, do you know what I mean?
978
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:49,753
And I were really mad with her.
979
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:52,434
But then I found out
she'd cut her tag off as well.
980
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:54,476
I didn't know that she'd had a tag.
981
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:57,472
She'd cut it off
before she come to my house.
982
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:02,990
The birth, Ann was there.
983
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:06,311
She was the first to hold him.
984
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:09,517
And I actually cried when I had Harris.
985
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:13,149
He was the first baby
that I really, really wanted.
986
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:17,991
I stayed mostly clean.
987
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:23,313
I used maybe once every two week
through Harris's pregnancy.
988
01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:26,233
He was born an addict. Erm...
989
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:30,309
He was my everything.
990
01:08:33,480 --> 01:08:35,948
I bet Rafee's about 50 now.
991
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:38,791
I made him hold Harris.
992
01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:42,793
And he was so pleased with himself
cos he'd never held a baby before.
993
01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:46,634
And he used to make sure Harris had
everything, make sure I had everything.
994
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:50,998
Cigarettes, food in the cupboard,
blah-di blah-di blah...
995
01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:53,799
In the back of my head
he was a client, but he wasn't,
996
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:58,237
if you know what I mean.
It was different, you know.
997
01:08:58,320 --> 01:09:02,233
He was a sugar daddy,
for want of a better term.
998
01:09:02,320 --> 01:09:06,108
He provided me with my drugs
whenever I rang up, you know.
999
01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:09,351
He was an importer
of crack cocaine and heroin.
1000
01:09:09,440 --> 01:09:13,433
Erm, it was like I hit gold
when I got him.
1001
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:15,272
He ended up getting me married off.
1002
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:21,155
Because he was a married man with
kids, he introduced me to a guy.
1003
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:25,836
I fell in love with him
and ended up marrying him.
1004
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:27,956
Half arranged, half love.
1005
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:31,955
Well, I liked Saif instantly,
he was handsome.
1006
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:35,476
You know, I am vain
and the first thing I do look at
1007
01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:37,915
is if somebody's handsome or not.
1008
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:42,872
I had to spend nine week away
from Harris when I was in prison.
1009
01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:45,269
It was hell.
1010
01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:47,920
I missed his first birthday on a recall.
1011
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:51,634
You know, I only ever got
one birthday with him.
1012
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:59,590
And we think children
don't know what's going on.
1013
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:03,673
I remember being in prison
and my husband bringing Harris up
1014
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:05,910
and he was so angry.
1015
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:10,630
Because not only had Mum gone, he
was now moved into a different house.
1016
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:14,759
You know, fair enough he went
to my foster parents, to Ann and Steve,
1017
01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:18,594
he went to his nan and granddad,
but Mum wasn't there.
1018
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:21,035
He wasn't waking up next to Mummy.
1019
01:10:23,480 --> 01:10:25,596
Some children,
you could give 'em to you
1020
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:29,514
and they'd have screamed and carted on,
wouldn't they, you know what I mean?
1021
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:31,556
At one year old... He weren't even one.
1022
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:35,428
It were April so he weren't one
till June, so he were 11, ten month old.
1023
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:37,875
Ten month old, that's a fact, yeah, ten.
1024
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:40,554
He were as good as gold.
But what Lorraine did say,
1025
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:43,029
"You've got to put six bottles
in his cot at night
1026
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:45,509
cos if you don't,
he'll wonder what's going on."
1027
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:47,909
And he'd drink 'em and sling 'em out,
1028
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:50,594
drink 'em, sling 'em out,
till the morning.
1029
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:54,639
And then, where the cot were there,
cot's there and our bed's there.
1030
01:10:54,720 --> 01:10:58,110
So we used to put... Cos he used
to stand up like that, looking at you.
1031
01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:00,953
As soon as you had eye contact
with him, that were it,
1032
01:11:01,040 --> 01:11:04,032
you had to either get up
or get up with him, be it whatever.
1033
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:07,032
So we, we used to put, like,
a dressing gown round it.
1034
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:10,510
And his head used to come up
and he'd be going...
1035
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:11,874
He'd be looking for you.
1036
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:14,838
And you'd laugh, cos I've got
a mirror and you could see him
1037
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:17,992
and you'd laugh and then you'd think,
"Right, just get him."
1038
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:20,355
So we'd put him
in the middle of us, bless him.
1039
01:11:20,440 --> 01:11:22,874
But he were not a minute's problem.
1040
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:25,793
He smiled all the time.
1041
01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:28,235
He were absolutely gorgeous.
1042
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:36,271
I think the job of a social worker
is so important.
1043
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:40,319
Because we attended meetings,
where sort of we'd say summat
1044
01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:42,789
and then it'd be a revelation
to somebody else.
1045
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:45,997
One of them didn't know
she'd had two children taken off her.
1046
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:47,069
You know what I mean?
1047
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:50,948
How could you make an informed decision
with so little knowledge?
1048
01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:54,919
They'd ask you on one hand
and disregard everything you'd said.
1049
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:57,878
They promised us
a degree of confidentiality
1050
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:02,829
but then went and told Lorraine, which
potentially caused a lot of conflict.
1051
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:07,311
It got back to her. She said, "Why have
you been saying that about me?"
1052
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:12,190
We suggested that it were more of
a weaning-off period back over to her.
1053
01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:15,078
Regular weight checks,
things like that.
1054
01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:16,275
He hadn't been eating.
1055
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:19,591
She wrote a letter, "Don't you
accuse me of not feeding my son."
1056
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:21,477
We didn't think she should have him.
1057
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:27,833
Ann and Steve.
I put them through hell.
1058
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:30,354
I knew they were looking after him.
1059
01:12:30,440 --> 01:12:33,318
You know, and I was
so grateful for them to do it,
1060
01:12:33,400 --> 01:12:37,996
but I was so jealous and envious
that he wasn't with me.
1061
01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:40,548
I wanted him with me,
where he belonged, with me.
1062
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:44,155
I was just being
downright bloody selfish.
1063
01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:49,953
I just can't for the life of me see
how they could come to a conclusion,
1064
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:54,636
that somebody heavily on drugs,
erm, with her background,
1065
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:57,678
you know,
could think she were capable of,
1066
01:12:57,760 --> 01:13:02,276
you know, maintaining a normal,
safe environment for Harris.
1067
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:07,512
You know, it just doesn't...
Doesn't sit right with me, anyway.
1068
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:11,195
The only good thing to come out of that,
it were over a gradual thing.
1069
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:13,714
She got him back over a few weeks.
1070
01:13:15,760 --> 01:13:18,274
I stayed on a methadone script.
1071
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:22,353
I got off of it but I couldn't get
more than five days of abstinence.
1072
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:27,273
I think I was having
a nervous breakdown.
1073
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:30,990
I split up with my husband.
1074
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:34,709
You know, I ended up
in a women's hostel.
1075
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:37,155
My addiction got worse.
1076
01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:48,397
Two... Two...
Two years and one month.
1077
01:13:48,480 --> 01:13:52,837
He was talking, he was walking,
he'd feed himself, he was in a nursery.
1078
01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:54,512
He was a clever little boy.
1079
01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:57,034
I used to pick him up from the nursery
and he knew,
1080
01:13:57,120 --> 01:13:58,872
he'd run to me and go in my pockets
1081
01:13:58,960 --> 01:14:01,520
cos he knew I had sweets
in my pockets for him.
1082
01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:05,073
I said, "Why didn't you leave him
with me that night?"
1083
01:14:05,160 --> 01:14:07,037
If you knew you were looking for drugs
1084
01:14:07,120 --> 01:14:09,270
and you were going out,
why didn't you?
1085
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:12,636
Because I'd lent her $20 that day
and I always think to myself,
1086
01:14:12,720 --> 01:14:14,950
if I hadn't had lent her the $20...
1087
01:14:15,040 --> 01:14:16,792
But it's like the policeman said,
1088
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:20,111
"If it hadn't have been that day,
it would have been another day."
1089
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:23,749
I'd got money off Ann
but then I couldn't score.
1090
01:14:23,840 --> 01:14:28,436
Erm, and I was
really, really withdrawing.
1091
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:32,239
He was with me that morning but, erm,
1092
01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:35,153
I had stacks and stacks
of methadone in that cabinet.
1093
01:14:35,240 --> 01:14:37,708
Cos I used to use
and try not to take the methadone.
1094
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:43,750
I used to take the methadone,
erm, when I really needed to.
1095
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:48,550
But there was a certain drug dealer that
I used to sit down and smoke crack with
1096
01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:51,757
and, er, he just used to give me it.
1097
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:53,751
But I couldn't get hold of him that day,
1098
01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:58,356
cos he, he hadn't, erm...
he hadn't got nothing on him.
1099
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:05,474
He went to bed,
Harris went to sleep, obviously.
1100
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:08,313
I think in the morning,
when she woke up, I don't know,
1101
01:15:08,400 --> 01:15:10,755
but you can presume,
she wanted to go to sleep,
1102
01:15:10,840 --> 01:15:12,592
he'd obviously wanted to get up.
1103
01:15:12,680 --> 01:15:15,797
Somebody'd heard her downstairs
shouting at Harris,
1104
01:15:15,880 --> 01:15:18,917
"Harris, get the eff to sleep."
1105
01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:23,039
They'd heard him running about because
the lady I went to the hospital with,
1106
01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:26,874
she said he'd got some nail varnish
and he'd been messing with it.
1107
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:37,589
Erm, I went to sleep with him
on the bed. Yeah.
1108
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:44,313
Erm, I had my hand and arm underneath
his head and we went to sleep.
1109
01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:49,354
I woke up and he never did.
1110
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:29,675
I remember sitting
on a caravan step just crying,
1111
01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:35,596
just like, erm, what can you do?
You couldn't... In fact it hurts me now.
1112
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:40,031
Well, there's nothing you can do
about it, you know what I mean?
1113
01:16:46,160 --> 01:16:47,957
Just awful.
1114
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:51,759
A lot of people have got a lot...
1115
01:16:51,840 --> 01:16:55,992
It never... It can never be put right
because, erm...
1116
01:16:57,720 --> 01:17:02,874
...situations are as they are
and we'll have learnt lessons from this
1117
01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:06,509
but they won't learn lessons at all
cos...
1118
01:17:06,600 --> 01:17:10,309
Well, when she got him back,
obviously whatever circumstances,
1119
01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:14,109
whatever lifestyle she chose to live...
1120
01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:22,398
We've got to live with seeing
the cemetery every day, virtually,
1121
01:17:22,480 --> 01:17:26,917
you know what I mean?
How can it not occur to you?
1122
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:32,989
Everybody let Harris down.
1123
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:35,674
We didn't, with hindsight,
fight hard enough.
1124
01:17:35,760 --> 01:17:40,072
We made the right noises,
but they were pissing in the wind.
1125
01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:21,954
Lorraine came to see Kathy
after a few days,
1126
01:18:22,040 --> 01:18:24,793
but she looked like
she weren't bothered.
1127
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:28,316
Kathy said, "Why ain't she crying?"
1128
01:18:28,400 --> 01:18:30,391
Cos if it had been her with her kids
1129
01:18:30,480 --> 01:18:33,756
and, like, I said,
if it were Nicole, if my child died,
1130
01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:36,673
I'd be in, I'd be in total meltdown.
1131
01:18:36,760 --> 01:18:40,070
I wouldn't be able to speak
to anybody for crying.
1132
01:18:40,160 --> 01:18:44,199
And she just walked in normal,
smiling and... It were weird.
1133
01:18:44,280 --> 01:18:46,316
It just all seemed weird
at that time.
1134
01:18:46,400 --> 01:18:51,428
But it's, like, I stuck up for her and
said, "People grieve in different ways."
1135
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:55,877
And I even went to stay
with Lorraine for a night.
1136
01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:59,316
And, er, she asked me
if she could have Nicole for a week.
1137
01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:03,109
I said, "Can you hell." I said,
"You deal with losing your son."
1138
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:05,998
Cos this were only
a couple of days after he died.
1139
01:19:06,080 --> 01:19:11,200
And she were wanting to have my child
and I was like, "No."
1140
01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:16,035
But... I don't know,
it's a horrible mess, that.
1141
01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:25,869
We just went to, erm, the graveside
and just took flowers,
1142
01:19:25,960 --> 01:19:28,554
you know the flowers
that everybody had brought.
1143
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:30,631
Because we hadn't got no vases,
1144
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:33,473
she was just sticking 'em
in the grave like that.
1145
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:35,676
You know,
just one flower after another.
1146
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:38,672
But then she started to go
like that with her hands
1147
01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:42,753
and she were, like,
getting all the soil like that.
1148
01:19:42,840 --> 01:19:45,673
And, erm, I thought
I'd better go help her here,
1149
01:19:45,760 --> 01:19:48,115
so I got down and I started doing it.
1150
01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:51,431
Cos she wanted to get the soil
to put the flowers in.
1151
01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:54,432
Erm, she ended up back
in Lingfield Mount
1152
01:19:54,520 --> 01:19:58,069
and I think she were there for about
a week. And then they arrested her.
1153
01:19:59,720 --> 01:20:02,678
My mum were absolutely devastated.
1154
01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:07,396
And she said, erm, if...
1155
01:20:07,480 --> 01:20:11,393
Same as the day that she were took
into hospital after this stroke.
1156
01:20:11,480 --> 01:20:16,952
And if she'd have known Lorraine were
there, she'd have had summat to say.
1157
01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:23,520
Cos she swore blind she didn't do
nothing, you know, to all of us.
1158
01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:25,397
And then when me mum got to find out,
1159
01:20:25,480 --> 01:20:31,112
she'd say,
"I'd shoot her for what she's done."
1160
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:33,919
"She's no granddaughter of mine."
1161
01:20:35,480 --> 01:20:41,077
Bradford Crown Court heard how
Harris Dunbar, at the age of just two,
1162
01:20:41,160 --> 01:20:43,674
had developed such a craving
for methadone
1163
01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:47,514
that as his mother took it for her
heroin addiction in front of him,
1164
01:20:47,600 --> 01:20:50,672
he'd hold out his arms screaming,
as if for a fix himself.
1165
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:51,954
He died last year
1166
01:20:52,040 --> 01:20:55,350
after swallowing the equivalent
of a teaspoonful of methadone,
1167
01:20:55,440 --> 01:20:57,829
prescribed for his mother's
heroin addiction.
1168
01:20:57,920 --> 01:20:59,751
Lorraine Dunbar is the daughter
1169
01:20:59,840 --> 01:21:02,354
of the late Bradford playwright,
Andrea Dunbar,
1170
01:21:02,440 --> 01:21:05,000
who became famous 20 years ago
for her film...
1171
01:21:05,080 --> 01:21:07,036
- It's not very flattering, is it?
- No.
1172
01:21:07,120 --> 01:21:10,351
...about life on the downtrodden
Buttershaw Estate in Bradford.
1173
01:21:10,440 --> 01:21:12,670
Lorraine was just 11
when her mother died
1174
01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:14,716
from a suspected
brain haemorrhage
1175
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:18,588
and her daughter had descended
into drugs by the age of 14.
1176
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:21,558
The judge said Dunbar
had totally failed as a parent
1177
01:21:21,640 --> 01:21:24,552
by omission rather than commission.
1178
01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:28,155
Today she was jailed for three years
and nine months for manslaughter
1179
01:21:28,240 --> 01:21:30,549
by gross neglect of her son Harris.
1180
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:35,070
John Cundy reporting.
More than 100 mourners attended...
1181
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:38,277
Embroidered it a little bit,
didn't they?
1182
01:21:53,520 --> 01:21:58,469
I didn't think for a minute
he'd died of drugs or owt related.
1183
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:02,319
He'd had methadone and dotheipin.
1184
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:07,030
Whether he'd been given it or whether
he'd taken it of his own free will,
1185
01:22:07,120 --> 01:22:09,156
we'll never know, will we?
1186
01:22:09,240 --> 01:22:13,870
Cos you can't just go around thinking
forever, "Did she? Didn't she?"
1187
01:22:13,960 --> 01:22:17,953
I mean, I thought to myself last night,
"Whatever happened, happened."
1188
01:22:18,040 --> 01:22:19,439
Now, he's not here.
1189
01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:22,114
Whether she give him it,
whether he picked it up,
1190
01:22:22,200 --> 01:22:25,272
it shouldn't have obviously been
in the room. It were.
1191
01:22:25,360 --> 01:22:27,476
And that's all there is to it now.
1192
01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:30,950
You can either say to her, "On your
bike, I don't wanna see you again,"
1193
01:22:31,040 --> 01:22:34,316
and just think, "Forget 'em all,"
and just get on with your life
1194
01:22:34,400 --> 01:22:36,960
or you can think,
1195
01:22:37,040 --> 01:22:40,715
"I won't do that and I'll sit back
and you know, I'll write to you
1196
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:45,555
and maybe see you and see how long
you get and see what you come out like."
1197
01:22:51,520 --> 01:22:54,592
I don't think it's ever something
you come to terms with.
1198
01:22:54,680 --> 01:22:58,912
Erm, the fact of the matter was,
I was responsible.
1199
01:23:01,080 --> 01:23:05,119
It took me over a year to even think
1200
01:23:05,200 --> 01:23:08,749
and start looking at the facts
that this was my fault.
1201
01:23:08,840 --> 01:23:13,595
You know, I allowed this and I caused
this, with no intention at all.
1202
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:18,389
But I chose drugs over my son.
1203
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:53,632
"If I wrote a play,
I'd do it about Buttershaw Estate."
1204
01:23:53,720 --> 01:23:56,280
"I'd show some people
getting their lives together
1205
01:23:56,360 --> 01:23:58,510
with a lot of courage and determination,
1206
01:23:58,600 --> 01:24:01,398
but it would also show others
going down a big steep hill
1207
01:24:01,480 --> 01:24:04,870
into a big black hole."
1208
01:24:22,440 --> 01:24:25,591
Today, I do every day
clean and sober.
1209
01:24:25,680 --> 01:24:29,275
If I ever felt like using, then I'd only
have to think of the consequence
1210
01:24:29,360 --> 01:24:32,750
of losing him and that's more than
enough to keep me clean.
1211
01:24:43,280 --> 01:24:44,713
I think I had to grow up.
1212
01:24:44,800 --> 01:24:47,268
I had to see the world as it was
and stop blaming it
1213
01:24:47,360 --> 01:24:51,194
and being very resentful
towards everyone.
1214
01:24:51,280 --> 01:24:53,236
And being angry, I guess.
1215
01:25:10,040 --> 01:25:11,632
With having Lorraine,
1216
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:14,188
I don't knock about with anybody,
same as Arbor.
1217
01:25:14,280 --> 01:25:17,795
I wouldn't say I've got any friends
cos I don't bother with nobody.
1218
01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:20,758
Keep myself to myself.
1219
01:25:20,840 --> 01:25:24,799
I think sometimes everybody
gets that way, wishing they hadn't.
1220
01:25:26,280 --> 01:25:29,829
Then they think...
I suppose sometimes you wish you hadn't
1221
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:32,992
cos you wanted to do this,
but when you've actually got 'em...
1222
01:25:33,080 --> 01:25:36,914
I mean if they were taken away from you,
you'd soon miss 'em and want 'em back,
1223
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:40,310
even though you can't do things
you'd like to do.
1224
01:25:40,400 --> 01:25:44,154
I don't think really
they are that much trouble,
1225
01:25:44,240 --> 01:25:48,279
not as much as what people
make them out to be.
1226
01:25:48,360 --> 01:25:51,477
Maybe it's just Lorraine,
cos she's a good baby. I don't know.
1227
01:26:53,920 --> 01:26:55,911
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