Original subtitles

You know what really makes us mad? It's wasting money on CDs with only one or

two good songs.

Yeah. Talk about punk!

What's up, hosers, and welcome to Punk Lotta Pot. I'm your host, Justin

Hensley. I'm your other co-host, Dylan Hensley.

I was wondering who was going to pull it out first. Who was going to bring out

the impersonation first?

You should have intro'd the episode with it.

What's up, posers?

I don't think Marquis Smith ever used the word poser, though.

Despite probably thinking everyone he ever encountered was a poser. So there's

that. But we'll get into that more.

Welcome to Punk Lotto Pod. This is the show where we choose one year at random

and select one punk, hardcore, emo, or punk-adjacent album from that year to

discuss. And today, we are talking about a band that we have mentioned several,

several times over the years of doing this show.

We've done silly impersonations, we've talked about them on I'm Listenings, and

we are finally going to actually talk about this band.

You know who it is, you read the title, but we'll save it.

It's for the theater. Yeah, I mean, if the impression didn't give it away.

Man, if that's your introduction to the fall... Is our

impersonations?

It's an uphill battle.

Sorry, guys.

It was your turn to choose this one, so this one's all on Dylan.

But we'll get into it.

If you head to patreon.com slash punklottopod, that's where you get

access to all of our weekly bonus audio, where last week we did a...

pretty large two-in-one news of the world i'm listening where we talked

about news stories and the music we listened to over a few different weeks

because it had been close to a month since we've done a real two-in-one

recording so we had a lot to get through yeah it's a double stuffed two-in-one

it's double stuffed oreos which now come in zero sugar i've had them

they're not very good yeah i imagine if you take you know sugar out of oreos

being that that's the primary flavor of oreos the primary ingredient in

oreos is sugar i i i suspect they probably taste like ashes

newspaper they tasted weirdly buttery okay it's it's

strange that's better than expected It gave me that little throat burn that the

fake sugars have, so that's how you know it's the fake sugars. I think it's the

same thing they're doing with all those, like, protein desserts, whatever those

things are, however you describe those things.

Yeah, see, that would make me, again, I'm back to newspaper.

Yeah, I mean, it tastes like newspaper.

That's what protein tastes like.

Yeah, they're not great.

I had the double stuffed. I wonder, it makes me wonder if the regular filling

version would actually be better.

Yeah, less of the filling.

Yeah, I think I need to try it. But the thing is, they come in bags and they're

individually packaged.

It's like it's the only way to get them.

They rob you of the traditional Oreo eating experience.

The sleeve of an Oreo? The crinkly plastic tray that it comes in.

And that.

top that like it sticks back on it but not that well yeah yeah you never line

it back up right never and then too much air gets in and they get real the

version of stale that oreos get is soft that's when you're like oh no yeah it's

just absorbing all the moisture in the air yeah individually packaged that's

how they are but we're not talking about oreos today this isn't moon pies for

misfits we could do that

We could just end this show and just do Moon Pies for Misfits. Just snacks the

show.

How do we do that so far away? That was almost the concept of one of the first

podcasts we tried to do anyway.

Yeah, it was YouTube.

I mean, yeah, we did video. Yeah, we were going to try to do an eating stuff

on camera show.

Yeah, like 10 years ago.

When that was still kind of new.

It's still a thing. Are you just on TikTok now?

Yeah, it's true. It is on TikTok now.

Why are we stalling? Oh, my God. We have a lot to actually talk about today.

If you sign up for the $5 producer tier, that gets your name said on the show

every single week. So shout out to our producers, Dave Brown, writer of the

newsletter Oklahoma Lefty. Shout out to Steve Long, host of the podcast Rebel

Nerd Radio.

Shout out to Jason W., writer of the newsletter Songs About Chocolate and

Girls. And shout out to Zach in Oregon.

If you want your name said on the show, sign up for that $5 tier. And you get to

vote in the once a month exclusive producer poll that determines what we

talk about on that month's extra play.

We have an extra play coming up soon that will be available in the $1 feed.

But if you want to vote in the poll to determine what we talk about next time,

sign up for that $5 tier and get your name said.

And then we have our $10 tier where you choose the album we devote an entire

episode to.

Okay, 1986.

This is my birth year.

And it was your turn to pick from the year.

And I think you did one of your calendars was 86 in the last recent few

years. So you spent a lot of time with this year. And I spent a lot of time

with this year, too, because I had the series called Dance of Days where I was

trying to find the good stuff from 1986.

Because I've always felt like 1986 is not that good of a year.

You always want your birth year to be, you know, more exciting than it actually

is. Yeah, I spent a little time with this year kind of deep diving.

last year so a lot of familiar stuff and well and a lot of stuff that i know

i've talked about on like i'm listening i've probably talked about this record

that we're doing on the show on and i'm listening yeah last year but maybe

didn't have a ton to say then but yeah so i'm fairly familiar with this year

and kind of what is going on categorically speaking and uh

1986, very big year, pretty peak for jangle pop and

jangly stuff.

And the Smiths put out The Queen is Dead.

You know, we've got records from The Go-Betweens, The Church, The House

Martins, The Triffids, though they're a little more on the kind of leaning into

sort of an alt country.

cow punky side of things as well as yola tango they i would kind of put them

somewhere between jangle pop more of the rem variety and kind of cow punk at this

time period but i think that's my i think that's my favorite yola tango

record too that's a really good one right the tiger is really good yeah and

it's probably it doesn't sound anything like the rest of yola tango's catalog

but yeah i like it a lot yeah all those 80s yola tango records are like an

entirely different band almost Yeah.

It's a different band, and I like both versions of the band.

And 1986 is the year of the notorious, infamous?

That makes it sound more negative, but I guess it depends on who you ask. The C

-86 comp, which nerds on the internet insist is a genre of music.

Right. Which it's not. It's not. It's jangle pop.

It's twee.

It's several things.

It's so many different things on that comp.

Yeah, it was just a compilation that for some reason people have decided to call

a genre. It's not a genre. I know some of it's more scene, I guess. But even

then, they're not even from the same scene.

They're from various different parts of the UK.

And we're in one of the first few big years of

alternative rock.

college rock and alternative rock kind of interchangeable terms at this point

but uh it is it is the basis of really alternative rock into the 90s and you

know what kind of opens the door for grunge to be the big thing that it is

and so we've got records from they might be giants their first proper

album yeah the self-title and uh who's gonna do is candy apple gray Fire Hose

did Rage in Full On.

We've got a Love and Rockets record.

A couple of Camper Van Beethoven records.

Yeah. I was always confused by 2 and 3 being just one record.

It's just funny to call 2 and 3 one album.

Hardcore is still a thing.

Barely. Remember, hardcore dies in 1986, according to Stephen Blush.

Yeah, except for all this hardcore I'm about to talk about.

Yeah. multiple iterations one that's actually like a really big record that

kind of starts a new wave of hardcore too yeah right chromax the age of

quarrel that's a huge record that kicked off new york hardcore as like a thing

as like a fully developed thing and it's like hardcore died it's like shut up you

just stop paying attention that's what happened i mean if chromax is your next

wave of hardcore i'd quit too Yeah.

I would be fine with it.

I'm just like, yeah, hardcore is dead.

We got fucking Harley.

Yeah.

But yeah, there's lots of other hardcore records in 86. Dead Kennedys is pretty

much a full tilt hardcore band at this point. We have no time for democracy.

And Agnostic Front have a record.

Poison Idea put out Kings of Punk.

Gang Green did another Wasted Night.

Surprisingly fun album. I actually like that gangrene record.

And Crossover is its own whole big thing. So

Hardcore is continuing to develop into new sounds.

Got records from Cryptic Slaughter.

I said Agnostic Front a minute ago, but I think they really properly fit in the

crossover lane here.

Yeah, for that record, yeah.

And Crumbsuckers.

That's a fun record.

Luda Christ.

Yep. The Luda Christ record's fun.

The Crumb Suckers record's fun. There's like a Nuclear Assault record that came

out that year that's pretty great, too.

I think there's a, whatchacallit record, too.

Voivod record, too.

Yeah, I think so.

Roar? Yeah. Yeah.

And we've got Emo Corps.

Yes. In small doses.

This Badger Band's...

can i say which is yeah you know an all-time record of the genre then you

have your arguably more post-hardcore but similar to

emo core in terms of uh it's kind of a railroad time situation i feel like

because you wouldn't necessarily properly call moving targets or articles

of faith emo core bands but when you kind of listen to what they're doing

with hardcore

it's not that different from dag or embrace so i kind of feel like they fit

in a technical sense yeah i don't know this your your header on this one i

think this is really there's not a specific scene for this stuff yet that's

really what's happening this batch you have is like don't let the header fool

you it's not exactly what it sounds like it is yeah really if if anything it's

just i've kind of grouped the

The bands that are trying to do more melodic things with hardcore together.

So broadly, you could call it melodic hardcore.

Right. And, you know, Ramones did Animal Boy, their attempt at hardcore.

Youth of Today put out Break Down the Walls, so we're seeing the beginning of

Youth Crew.

Descendants did Enjoy.

Agent Orange did This is the Voice.

So we kind of have the origins of skate punk as well.

And, I mean, Dag Nasty also, like...

They're a melodic hardcore band. They're an emo core band.

They also kind of are influential on skate punk. So, you know, it's just that

melodic direction that I think hardcore is taking in the mid 80s. Kind of

goes on to inspire a lot of subgenres.

And we got some gothy shit.

Yeah, there's a lot of it. Yeah.

Notably, The Mission put out God's Own Medicine.

Suzy and the Banshees put out Tinderbox.

Sam Hain, and I will always say it's Sam Hain.

Yeah, it's fine.

It sounds pretentious to say it the other way.

No one knows what you're talking about if you say it the right way.

Yeah. You know Danzig's not saying it the right way.

He always says, like, I accept both.

It's like, that means you said it wrong first, probably.

You were never saying it right to begin with, and then people were like, you

know it's actually pronounced Salwin.

And he was like, what?

Because he probably read the word.

Yeah. For like 10 years before he ever even heard anyone say it.

Yeah. The Cramps put out a date with Elvis.

Great record.

Which is a lot of fun.

The Damned put out Anything.

Which is not a lot of fun.

That record's rough.

It's not terrible.

It's the They Tried to Do 80s Production record.

That's why I don't like that one.

It's not even the first time they tried to do 80s production.

It feels like the first time they went as hard as they did on it, though.

It does not sound like the damn when you listen to it.

I do not like that record at all.

I think it's okay.

There's a little bit of crust and DB kind of stuff going on.

Conflict, which we talked about that record.

Ungovernable Force and Gauze put out Equalizing Distort.

That record rocks, too. Yeah.

So you picked a few different things here for your almost picked selections

there.

It's an interesting batch that you managed to cobble together here.

So what were you considering to choose for us to talk about?

So there's a lot of stuff that I mentioned in the genre section that I

know I listened to and I talked about sometime last year. And they felt like

things that I've talked about to you recently. There's plenty of stuff that I

think is interesting still from 86 to talk about. Can I say by Dag Nasty for

one? I mean, we probably should do that record, you know.

I briefly consider they might be Giants as well, but I thought maybe that's too

much of a stretch. But the ones that I properly consider, the ones that jumped

out to me, Bad Brains, Eye Against Eye, was my first one to really jump out to

me. You said this was their second best Bad Brains record.

I would probably agree with that, especially because their first two

albums are basically the same album two times.

yeah the self-titled and rock for light it's like they re-recorded a bunch of

the self-titled for rock for light so it's the same songs but also like the

best material on rock for light is from the first record yeah so i don't know

why they're unnecessary and it doesn't sound as good like the rock for light

recordings are nowhere near as good as the bad brains the roar tape is what's

often called versions yeah yeah i don't think that rick okay sick understood how

to record a hardcore band and then there's a bunch of bad reggae songs on

there and then it's also like yeah it's the mixing mastering

remix issue with the yeah i think the streaming version of rock for light is

the fucked up mix version where it's faster as chip monkey yeah yeah so

honestly i'm of the bad brains records i mean i know the first one is so

important but it feels maybe talked about too much in the grand scheme

of punk rock that i'm i'm somewhat more inclined to pick this one and this was

probably the strongest contender other than the record i ended up with but you

think it's interesting we've never done bad brains but yeah there's a lot of

stuff we've never done i mean

we keep every now and then we're like oh yeah we should do the obvious stuff yeah

so maybe this is our reminder we should have a run of much more obvious records

yeah yeah because you need it you need to do them you know you can't just be

only the rare you know the rare but like the lesser known stuff you know

especially if you're going for growth in your podcast too uh we i considered the

good earth by the v by the feelies uh which you were saying we're gonna throw

away all of our cred yeah we did so many hardcore records over the like last two

months that are like hey let's do a record that's not even like that close

to punk yeah that's like maybe not even actually a punk record yeah i wouldn't

but yeah and it's it's the least it's one of the well there's really only one

feelies record that you would i think fully properly categorized as a punk

record So that's probably the one we should do if we talk about a feelies

record. But this one's my favorite. So I don't know. That's why it jumped out to

me. But yeah, you know, sleepy REM maybe isn't what

this show should be about.

Maybe up there with the with the Sundays record that we did, where it's just

like, I don't know if this is even close enough.

And that Sunday's record was even a stretch for like my bloody Valentine's

Day. Yeah. Yeah. It would be like, it's not really shoegaze either.

Yeah.

And I considered Pretty Little Baka Guy by Shonen Knife. I think this one's

important. I don't really know with this band.

I don't either. I don't know which ones are important, which ones aren't. The

yellow one with the Jimi Hendrix font is probably the most important one.

Yeah. They have multiple surprisingly popular records throughout their career.

uh particularly the 80s and 90s though so i think that's probably like the era

to focus on but man they are still around and it is at

least one original member i think i think two original members but maybe one

of them is like studio only i don't i don't know i didn't look into it too too

closely but i feel like when they put that last record out i was still doing

my um New Music Fridays, New Release Fridays.

And I talked about it on there. And I think that record, it was like one of

the first records without that other original member.

I think it's the drummer.

Yeah. I think they've had like the two main ones for like most of their entire

career, but just recently.

Yeah. One retired.

I also, I want to talk about a Shona Knife record for some reason, but I

don't, even though I don't think that.

there's very much i feel like i can really say about them and like i don't

know if i want to devote a whole episode to just reducing them down to ramon's

core but kawaii like but i also don't think that they think that their music

is super serious either so yeah like i don't know we'll see if we ever get to a

shonen knife record i feel like maybe eventually but yeah who knows when well

It was your turn to choose, so what did you choose us to talk about?

I picked Ben Sinister by The Fall.

approaching 600 pounds gas and flesh

Robson tainted it's approaching lips

and tongue and hearts flickering

lexicon on a straight on pack

leader

Yes,

let's run down some stats.

So, The Fall were from Prestwick in Greater Manchester in the United

Kingdom. They formed in 1976, and this is their ninth studio album.

I can't think of anybody else from this era that had nine records, from the punk

era, had nine records by 86.

This was released September 29th, 1986 on Beggar's Banquet Records.

The Ramones?

How many Ramones? Were they up to nine by that point yet?

Maybe. They might be at that point.

Yeah. Animal Boy was their ninth record.

So, yeah.

It's the Ramones in the fall.

The person on this record is Craig Scanlon on guitars, Stephen Hanley on

bass and guitar, John Simon Wollstonecroft on drums, Simon Rogers on

keys and guitar, Brick Smith on guitar, keys, and vocals, and Mark E. Smith on

vocals and tapes.

We have additional musicians here. We have Paul Hanley on drums on the song

Dr. Faustus, and it was produced by John Leckie and released on CD, vinyl, and

cassette. So what made you choose Bend Sinister as the album that we're going

to talk about today?

Well, honestly, I picked this one at random because you asked me after I had

shown you my nominations a few days later. You were like, well, what record

are we doing?

Yeah. So I looked at what I had nominated again and I was like, not any

closer to deciding. So I just picked it at random. I just threw it in a number

generator. Oh, wow.

And. And I figured, like, if I draw a number and then the record that

corresponds to it isn't actually that exciting to me, I would just draw again.

You know, it's the coin toss.

It tells you what you want.

Yeah. If you have a negative reaction to the result of the coin toss, you don't

follow it. You just do the opposite.

That's what you actually want to do.

Or at least you don't want to do the other thing more. Right.

It's because you don't realize how much you don't want to do something until you

do that coin toss. And you're like, oh, but I didn't want to do that one. And

then you're like, oh, because you want to do the other one. Yeah.

So I got this one and I was like, sure. Yeah.

Let's do a fall record.

It's about time.

I mean, we've considered fall records in the past.

And we've talked about them off and on throughout the years. And they're a

really important band that we haven't properly devoted.

time too so uh why i nominated nominated this one specifically this is one of the

most consistently enjoyable fall records i've heard familiar with this record

already and even though it's not even like top five most popular

fall records it is still really well regarded and fairly popular in their

discography and i think there's a case to be made that this is the last

really vital fall record uh i think there's interesting stuff going on later

in their career their 90s records where they're doing like alternative dance are

kind of interesting but it's really far from what they're known for and also

not great because i've heard some of those records i listened to one of them

but inf was the one called like infotainment scam or something like that

Yeah, that's like probably the most important dance record they made.

It's probably the most like notable record they made into the 90s. Yeah,

yeah. There's, you know, there's the later post-dance stuff where they kind

of go back to sounding like classic fall too.

That's maybe interesting to talk about. But even still, like that stuff is

almost like Marky Smith doing a tribute act to the fall.

with a bunch of ringers.

So really not that important to hear. I also thought this one would be

interesting to talk about because it is the follow-up to probably their most

important record.

It's their most popular, probably the highest rated record in their

discography. I want to say it's probably in that 1001 Albums to Hear

book. and why it's so popular but nation saving grace came out prior to this

record and uh so i think it's i think it's interesting to this is one of

those not that one kind of cases where it's like this is the follow-up to

something huge that they did like what's the deal with it you know yeah we've had

a few of these in the past where we've covered like the the record after the

big one you know

The ones I can think of, I guess, would be... We did Conspiracy of One. That was

the follow-up to Americana, which was, like, a weird, like, later smash hit

album. Not counting Smash.

Or we did, like, Life Won't Wait by Rancid, which was the follow-up to Out

Come the Wolves.

There is something interesting about the follow-up to the big record.

Because it could either be a huge disappointment, something like that

Rancid record where they were just like, we can do whatever we want, and they

made an over-an-hour-long Rancid record.

It's like, no one wanted that.

You know, so, yeah, there's a lot of different ways that the follow up to the

big one could go.

Then, you know, my personal experience, yours and my personal experience, I

think it's the same.

But really, really, I think our proper introduction to the fall is through our

friend and the poor who's been on the show in the past. She gave us a playlist

of fall songs to listen to.

And that really helped me kind of get a grip on what.

their deal is up to that point really i just knew the name and recognized some

of the album covers i thought maybe they were just one of those bands that's too

arty and weird for me to really get into like half japanese yeah and i

think there's stuff in their discography that is still too arty and weird for me

but you know getting that introduction to them and like getting this kind of

tasting of a lot of different records in their discography was really helpful to

be like okay i like what they're doing here that's really appealing to me so i

want to see if there's more stuff like that and um so i i've been interested

enough to check out their records over the years different you know usually

when i'm deep diving on a year and i come across a fall record i'm game to

throw it on and give it a listen because i think there's there's a chance they do

something that i like Pretty much on every record.

Yeah, I mean, my background's the same. We would see their name on the charts

when we'd do the chart section of the show and just be like, oh, The Fall's

got another record. It's like, yeah, The Fall's got a record almost every single

year. They're a good chunk of their career.

And then, yeah, Anne was the one to kind of be like, you guys talk about The

Fall, but you don't know what they sound like, do you? It's like, nope.

She kind of helped us understand what their deal is.

She's like, not everything's perfect, but they do have some really good stuff.

I agree. I do think not everything's perfect. I think... I have a weird

experience with The Fall. The Fall is a band that intellectually, when I listen

to the records, I go, hmm, this is good. I am quite smart and erudite, and I know

what I'm talking about when I say The Fall have good records.

But I never actually want to listen to a Fall record. Does that make sense?

I never have the urge to put on The Fall.

When I listen to The Fall, it's because I'm doing a thing where I'm like, ah,

I'm studying a year, so I must listen to this Fall record.

Yeah, yeah, I have kind of a similar experience of just not going out of my

way to listen to The Fall.

I may be a little bit more excited when I see them pop up than you are.

I'm, I don't listen to The Fall for pleasure.

It does always feel a little bit like homework.

Yeah, I feel like I'm like, I'm appreciating art.

It's like when I watch like an art film, I'm like, all right, let's watch it.

Do I like it? I don't know, but it's interesting.

Yeah. And that's how I think I would describe the fall. I don't know if I

like them, but I do think they're interesting.

So that's something right.

Gives you something to talk about.

Okay. What? Okay.

Also rants.

What is an also ran of the fall?

Like what is, what is this from? What, what, what's similar? What's going on

here? Yeah.

So there's some stuff that I think is pretty close.

And there's some stuff that is a little bit more of a stretch.

But I'm generally grouping a lot of post-punk and art, rock,

and noisy stuff into one category here. I

see this list and I'm like, man, there's a lot of stuff here I don't like.

Yeah. Yeah.

The stuff that I think is probably closest to what The Fall is doing, No

Means No put out Sex Mad.

Chumbawamba put out pictures of starving children sell records, colon,

starvation, charity, and rock and roll, dash, lies and traditions.

I think it's their first record too.

Yeah.

It is just so funny to think about Chumbawamba.

Yeah.

Everything about them is we're anarchists and we make weird, arty post

-punk. Except for that blip where they were one of the biggest pop bands in the

world for like a year.

Bizarre career.

Yeah. And are forever a football chant song.

They're a jock jam.

Yeah. Public Image Limited put out album in terms of like

abrasive weirdo post-punk bands. That's probably the closest to the fall.

certainly abrasive is it actually as abrasive as johnny rotten wants you to

think it is no no musically it's not he is yeah as a

person he is very abrasive i would put me cons pretty close to the fall

uh they put out the edge of the world the biggest difference being that the me

cons probably do more pretty stuff

I think the Mekons are probably catchier than the Fall are.

Yeah. I've heard some, not a lot, but I've heard like one or two records by

them. And then maybe some things that don't... Maybe a little bit more of a

stretch. Killing Joke, Brighter Than a Thousand Suns. At this point, Killing

Joke are not quite as hard-edged and industrial as they once were.

Yeah, this is basically like a post-punk record. Just a fairly well-produced post

-punk album.

And then there's stuff that is...

Not exactly musically the same, but edgy or challenging

or experimental in nature.

Sonic Youth's Evil.

Big Black did Atomizer.

Nick Cave did two records.

Your Funeral, My Trial, Kicking Against the Pricks.

Butthole Surfers put out Rembrandt Pussy Horse.

Oof. Yeah, that's not for me.

That is not the band for me.

Pepper is the only thing I can handle by them.

Scratch Acid, put out Just Keep Eating.

There's like two Swans records.

Yuck. Going further into industrial, you've got KMFDM.

What do you know?

Deutschland.

Is KMFDM German?

I would assume they are.

Yeah. From Hamburg.

Yeah.

Hamburg. Yeah. Okay.

Okay, so the record we're talking about came out on Beggar's Banquet.

So the Beggar's Banquet records from 1986 are Peter Murphy's Should the World

Fail to Fall Apart, Peter Murphy from Bauhaus. We have the previously

mentioned Love and Rockets record, Express.

We have Gene Love's Jezebel's Discover.

And then we have albums by Flesh for Lulu.

Albums in like seven inches and EPs. We got The Flesh for Lulu, The Icicle

Works, The Bolshoi, which are like a goth rock band, Pierce Turner, who's

like an Irish singer-songwriter, Adult Net, which is a Brick Smith side project

trying to do New Wave, and albums produced by John Leckie, who produced

this record from 1986, as he did an album by a band called The Lucy Show,

and two records by someone named Bill Nelson. So I don't really know those

records or what they are.

Yeah!

Yeah!

Okay, let's get into the story.

There's a lot of story here. The Fall have a very long history because they

put out a shit ton of records and they had a shit ton of band members.

And there's a ton to it. So my approach for this is I tend to start with the

beginning of the band's story just because I think it's interesting and I

think it's worth putting into context.

you know, where a band comes from and how they got their start.

I'm also going to basically track their catalog to this record through the

members and the releases in the labels. So that's kind of how I'm doing this

one. So it's going to be kind of long. So Dylan, feel free to interject if

something sounds funny or interesting that you want to point out, but we're

nine albums deep into a career. And I kind of want to see how I wanted to be.

The challenge was how do we get to this record?

So the fall initially met in press, which England,

As some sort of like poetry group that mainly what they would do is they would

get together and read each other their writings and then do drugs together.

So the fall begins with drugs and poetry.

And that really, if you really boil it down, reduce it. If you reduce it to the

core, people doing drugs and reading poetry is what the fall is.

So, they consisted of Mark E. Smith, Martin Brama, Una Baines, and Tony

Friel. And they managed to see the Sex Pistols perform in Manchester in July

1976, and then decided, we should start a band. Tale as old as time.

Sex Pistols play a show, 20 bands spring out of that show.

Especially in this era, this early.

They decided that they wanted to start a band, and musically, they were citing

Can. The Velvet Underground, Captain Beefheart, The Monks, and The Stooges as

Influences. And of course they did. Of course.

Yeah. Because they are doing speed and reading poetry.

Yeah. Of course they like Krautrock and Lou Reed.

And Captain Beefheart.

When can we stop pretending that Captain Beefheart's actually good?

It's not actually good.

But for some god-awful reason, it's like one of the most... referenced and cited

records of all time. I don't understand it. So, Mark wanted to call the band The

Outsiders, but Friel came up with The Fall, based on the Albert Camus novel of

the same name. And if you really think about it, that makes way more sense for

this band than The Outsiders. S.E. Hinton?

No.

I mean, it's a good story.

It's not a challenging read, Mark. It's a children's book.

Stay gone, honey boy.

ah, Soda Pop was facing off against the Sox. Yeah.

There would be a band called The Outsiders who would form in the UK.

They had like two records.

So the lineup, performing lineup, Mark Smith is the vocalist, Brahma is on

guitar, Friel is on bass, and Bane smashed on biscuit tins because she

couldn't afford an actual drum set.

So we're doing Pickle Jars. The Against Me Pickle Jars situation.

She later switches to keys because they're like... This sounds terrible.

So they play their first show in July of 1977, and they are joined by their first

real drummer, known only as Dave or Steve.

I don't know how you don't remember the name of the guy.

Dave or Steve.

It was Dave. No, it was Steve.

I think they're getting the V-E. That's all they could remember.

Decades later, a journalist discovered that the drummer was most likely a man

named Steve Ormrod.

And he left after one show.

due to political differences with the band.

I don't know which direction that goes.

I don't either. That's a weird question.

The thing about the Fall is... What are they politically?

They're incomprehensible.

Yeah. He says things like, the Fall is like being in the Nazi party.

It's like, what does that mean?

You're Hitler?

Is that what that means? What does that mean?

He's not a socialist.

He's not a communist.

I don't think he's an anarchist.

I think he's a libertarian. I think that's what he is.

Like the equivalent of whatever the British version, 70s, 80s British

version of a libertarian is. It's probably what he is.

Yeah.

Populist? Yeah.

Maybe. You know, working class English background.

That's true.

Something relatable there, regardless of what direction he takes that.

I do wonder what the Steve Dudes deal was, though. Was he more like... I'm

just a Tory, you know? Or was he more like, you guys don't have an actual

comprehensive or like a cohesive belief?

Was he like an anarchist or something? Yeah.

Yeah. An actual like leftist with socialist policies and is like, I'm not

a socialist.

Okay. Who knows?

I think Mark E. Smith just liked being confusing.

But, okay.

Steve Ormerod is replaced with drummer Carl Burns, who Friel had played with in

another band.

They then managed to gain the attention of the Buzzcocks manager Richard Boone,

who funded their first recording session, which would wind up becoming

their debut EP, Bingo Masters Breakout.

Boone had intended on releasing it on his own record label called New

Hormones, but discovered he couldn't afford it, and he just gave the tapes

back to the band. Which is actually kind of cool. He's just like...

I can't do anything with this. I thought I could. Here, you should put it out. So

their first official release is actually just two songs on the live compilation

by Virgin Records called Short Circuit Live at the Electric Circus. Electric

Circus was a music venue in Manchester that was closing.

And so they compiled a live compilation of bands who performed at the Electric

Circus. Kind of an odd thing for Virgin Records, for a major label to do.

Just do like a tribute to a music venue.

Interesting. Must have been a big deal.

So Una Bain's friend and co-worker at a psychiatric institute named Kay Carroll

became the band's manager.

And she just so happened to start dating Mark E. Smith.

Friel was not happy about this situation.

He didn't like her management style and didn't like how basically whatever Mark

wanted, she agreed with.

So he winds up quitting the band and he'll be replaced by Johnny Brown. Very

briefly. before Eric McGann becomes the permanent replacement.

Baines would leave in 1978 after a drug overdose and subsequent nervous

breakdown, and she would be replaced by Yvonne Pollitt. Eric McGann would wind

up quitting after being dis... This is very funny to me. Eric McGann would quit

after being disgusted by the van driver wearing a Hawaiian shirt to drive them

to their first session with John Peel. Just think about that for a second.

He's wearing a Hawaiian shirt?

This guy's so unprofessional.

We can't be showing up at a John Peel session with our driver wearing a

Hawaiian shirt.

Who the fuck cares? Is the driver coming inside and recording with you? Like, why

do you care?

And as far as I know, that driver actually stuck with the van for a long

time. So it's like somebody they knew.

He's gonna see him through the window.

Like, I just can't imagine like what it is that was like, why did that piss you

off so badly?

I wonder if there was something else going on. He's like, this is my out.

So you got to be what's what else is going on is you have to work with Marky

Smith is what's going on.

Yeah. John Peel would later go on to record 24 sessions with The Fall and

consider them his favorite band.

So it probably helps to have someone like John Peel in your corner and

championing you every chance he could possibly get.

The band's roadie, Mark Riley, would eventually take over bass duties for

McGann. So Bingo Master Breakout would finally be released a year after it was

recorded in 1978 on Step Forward Records, which...

By the time it comes out, the lineup is like almost entirely different. There's

like two people, three people from that recording that were still in the band at

this point.

And they then would release their first full-length album, Live at the Witch

Trials, in 1979.

Burns would quit after this recording session and be replaced with drummer

Mike Lee, who was known as a drummer for the Cabaret Scene.

So he was just a drum for hire.

Bram would wind up leaving...

excuse me, Brahma would wind up leaving shortly after, making him the final

forming member besides Marky Smith to leave The Fall.

Mark Reilly would then shift over from bass to guitar, while an additional

guitarist named Craig Scanlon joins the band. And I believe Craig is our first

member to perform on Ben Sinister to join the band that's not Mark. And they

bring in new bassist Steve Hanley.

Hanley would be known as the bass player that gave The Fall their specific sound.

Paulette would leave in 1979 to care for her dog.

Ah, sorry, guys. I can't be in the fall anymore. I gotta go take care of my dog.

That feels like another excuse to quit the band.

Can't, guys.

My dog needs more attention.

Hawaiian shirts.

My dog's sick.

I don't even know if the dog is actually sick. I think it's just like, oh, I

couldn't get a sitter.

And one legitimate one who's like, I don't like the manager being the band

leader's girlfriend.

That's probably the most legitimate complaint.

So they would then release their next record, Dragnet, in 1979.

And then Mike Lee would quit in 1980 because his complaint was that they

would wait two weeks. They wouldn't play a show more than every two weeks because

Mark was...

taking too long to come up with new lyrics and i took that to mean that mark

just made up new lyrics all the time for their songs it's like just play the

songs you already wrote lyrics for them but i was reading later that he would

just constantly just like make up new lyrics to songs all the time so he's one

of those guys and he didn't like he's like i want to play shows so he went

back to the cabaret scene because he could just go play a show like probably

every other night if he wanted to Paul Hanley would then replace him on drums,

and this begins what is considered the classic lineup of the band.

They would then quit Step Forward Records and sign to Rough Trade and

release their album Grotesque after The Gram in 1980.

They would then quit Rough Trade due to the band's dislike of the label's

politics. That is twice now that someone has quit because of politics.

Now this one you can probably understand.

Rough Trade's a pretty big label in the UK.

And they probably weren't just like, eh, we're just cranking shit out. We don't

necessarily have like a cohesive political statement that we're trying to

make either. So The Fall then signs to indie label Camara.

The Fall attempted to go on tour in the U.S., but Paul Hanley was denied a visa

due to being so young he couldn't play in the 21 and up clubs in the U.S. He

joins the band when he's like 16 years old. So he's like literally still a

child. They would then bring back Carl Burns to play drums for their U.S. tour.

And he winds up just staying with the band after they return back to the UK.

And The Fall would just have two drummers for a few records now.

So the next record, Hex Induction Hour in 1982.

And then we have Room to Live, same year, 1982.

Mark Reilly would then be fired by the end of 82 due to several arguments and

getting into a fistfight on a tour of Australia. I'm not sure if it was with a

fistfight with a band member or with someone at a...

You know, a gig.

But then Bricks Smith would be brought in to play guitar. And she is Mark E.

Smith's American girlfriend.

What's different about Bricks is she was pretty fashionable.

She had, like, bleached blonde hair.

She was up on, like, the style of the time. Like, she, you know, was put

together. Which kind of put her at odds with the Fall's working class look.

One of the members, I think, made fun of Mark E. Smith's clothing is calling it,

like, jumper clown wear he was like you're wearing a jumper but you look

like a clown it's just like this weird fashion style they was making fun of so

bricks kind of like gave them a lend of uh lent them a sheen of polish to their

look she's also known for bringing a poppier element to the fall through her

guitar playing because her style of playing was a little bit more straight

ahead a little bit more pop sensible than the previous guitarists that have

been in the band So they would then re-sign to Rough Trade Records for their

next record, Perverted by Language, released in 1983.

They would then quit Rough Trade again because the label was more interested in

putting money into the Smiths than bands like The Fall.

Now, I don't like the Smiths, but... Yeah, you can see the commercial appeal.

That's the move.

If you're a record label, you're going to put more money behind the Smiths than

The Fall.

Especially a band who'd already quit your label once before.

Like, yeah.

Also... Yeah, I mean, look at Morrissey.

Yeah.

The second coming of Elvis.

And look at Mark.

Yeah. A builder's son.

So Bricks and Mark get married in 1983.

He does that a lot.

So the fall then winds up signing to Beggar's Banquet, and they release their

seventh album, The Wonderful and Frightening World of, in 1984.

Paul Hanley then quits the band during the middle of the tour for this record.

I didn't really read why. It didn't say why.

They then released This Nation's Saving Grace in 1985, after which drummer Carl

Burns would quit the band, ending their two-drummer period.

They did ask Paul Hanley to come back to finish up some dates until they got his

replacement, which is John S.

Walstoncroft, a.k.a. Simon Walstoncroft, and he would join the band as their new

drummer, giving the band...

a light and airy drumming style, and he would stay in the band for 11 more

years. So this period and the period right before are kind of considered the

classic runs of the band because it's the most consistent lineup they've had,

longstanding members, and yeah.

In 1985, Stephen Hanley took a brief paternity break and was filled in by

Simon Rogers, who remained in the band on keys after Stephen returned from his

break.

A little bit on Beggar's Banquet, they're a UK independent label that

began in 1977 with a 7-inch by the band The Lurkers.

And they would go on to form the sub-labels 4AD and XL Recordings, which,

you know, pretty well-known record labels.

They would also absorb other record labels like Matador.

So Matador is currently owned by Beggar's Banquet.

And Beggar's Banquet was known at this time for releasing albums by Gary

Newman, Bauhaus, Modern English, and The Cult.

And then, like, the 480 stuff. I didn't really go through the 480 stuff because

it's kind of its own thing.

But, like, they already have Cocteau Twins by 86.

So they go into studio at Yellow 2 in Stockport, as well as at Abbey Road in

London and Square One in Bury.

All of these are in London area.

And John Leckie is the producer here.

He was a tape operator at Abbey Road who became a producer, who was most known

for working with bands such as XTC, Magazine, The Adverts, Civil Minds, and

Human League.

And John Leckie had actually worked with the band on their previous two Beggar's

Banquet albums.

This would be his final record with The Fall.

So John Leckie and Mark would argue during recording, and Mark would

complain that John Leckie was always putting a swamp on everything, which he

described as making it all psychedelic.

Mark, at one point, demanded that some of the tracks be mastered from the

cassette copy of the mixes that he had been listening to on his Walkman.

So basically, he gets a copy of the mix from the record, and he has this Walkman

player, but it has a speaker. It's one of those Walkmans with a speaker, not

headphones. So he was just playing it through the speaker on his Walkman.

And once they were like, all right, here are our final mixes, he would then

complain. He's like, these are not what we mixed in the studio.

And like he said, it's because the Walkman he was listening to, it was on

chrome tape, which was like bad. It just didn't sound good. Chrome tape doesn't

sound anywhere near as good.

And the speaker he had was distorting it too.

So what he was hearing was just his own, these mixes being played through a

shitty ass speaker on shitty ass tape and was demanding that these be the

final mixes.

I like how fucked up it sounded.

Leckie was like, no, we're not doing this. But eventually actually did let

him put a couple mixes on the record from his cassette copy.

And then Leckie was like, ultimately he was right. He's like, that's their

sound. That is their sound.

Shitty distorted tape through a bad speaker is the Falls sound.

So Mark has a songwriting credit on every song on the record, except for Mr.

Pharmacist, which is a cover of the song The Other Half by the 1960s garage rock

psych group from San Francisco.

Bricks has songwriting credits on about half the record.

Scanlon Rogers and Hanley all have some songwriting credits on multiple songs.

And Paul Hanley does actually play drums on the song Dr.

Faustus. So different pressings have different tracks on them. The version

that's on streaming, I believe, is the CD and the cassette version.

was the first album released on CD for the fall.

And the vinyl version does not feature the songs Living Too Late or Autotech

Pilot. Those two songs were actually singles and singles and b-sides.

And they decided for the CD and the cassette version that now they had

enough room for it, they would put those songs on there as well.

The cassette, there's a certain cassette version that also has a song called Town

and Country Hobgoblins, which is a live version of a song called City Hobgoblins

off of like a 1980 record.

So I mentioned it the same year they released this record. They did the

Living Too Late single, which was on 7-inch and 12-inch vinyl that has Hot

Aftershave Bop as a B-side on it.

Mr. Pharmacist was released as a 7-inch and a 12-inch single backed with Lucifer

over Lancashire.

And they did release another single in 86 called Hey Luciani, which is a non

-album track. There is a version of the record, I think, that was reissued much,

much later that features that one on it.

It features Shoulder Pads number one as the B-side on that one as well. And this

album, up to that point, was one of their most successful records.

And it ranked at number 36 on the UK album charts.

And then NME called it number seven on their year-end album chart list that

year. So that is the main story leading up to Ben Sinister. There's so many

other smaller details about each record that I could have gotten found, but I...

I didn't want to. I was just trying to get us to where we are. But so there we

are. Ben Sinister.

Dear pharmacist, won't you please give me some energy?

Mr. Pharmacist, Mr.

Pharmacist.

Hey, Mr. Pharmacist.

I recommend you to my friends.

I'm very happy.

Mr.

Pharmacist, can you help?

What did you think of it?

Revisiting. So coming back to this record, I enjoyed it. And I think

it... holds its status to me as one of the most consistently enjoyable fall

records. I would say this one and This Nation's

Saving Grace are the two fall records I've liked the most, which kind of makes

sense. I think this time period for the band is more in line with my tastes and

what I want to hear from this kind of band. And it's the more pop-sensible

stuff.

Honestly, I do think the fall as a band needed a little reigning in because I've

heard some of the earlier stuff.

And a lot of those records are, they're good, they're challenging, but they're a

little too challenging. And they're not something I want to reach for very

often. They feel a lot more like work. And this is a record I can listen to.

And I feel like this Nation Saving Grace is a record that I can listen to and not

feel like I'm having to.

try so hard to enjoy what they're doing to get what they're going for there's a

there's a lot less i understand it creatively but i don't enjoy listening

to it and i enjoy listening to more of the these records than probably anything

else i've heard in their discography that being said you know i think by the

end of it i do feel the repetition and the length a little bit i

I, you know, I don't know if I need every song on here.

I don't know that I need every long song to be as long as it is. You know,

Bon Mouth Runner, Riddler. They're like six minutes long. And I'm like, and

there are six minutes of Marky saying Bon Mouth Runner.

You know, so it's like I got the idea and some.

Some degree of repetition, of almost excessive repetition, is necessary

because that is kind of a fundamental element of the fall. But it can,

even on this record, I think get to be a little bit too much.

But that's my main real criticism with the record.

It's funny listening to this record, really funny listening to any fall

record that I...

you know, ostensibly enjoy to whatever degree that I do and whatever mode I'm

in, you know, enjoying it.

The fall is a band that I feel like is, I'm trying to think of an analogy.

I'm thinking of it like it's a, like it's a portrait of Dorian Gray, you

know, like the fall is this case against ever describing

a, a band as,

too arty or too weird or too disjointed or too repetitive you know whatever

like criticism you reach for in the moment of saying like oh you know what's

wrong with this record is the the vocals are are monotonous and or you know the

idea the songs are too repetitive or something like that and i'm like

actually that is the fall's whole deal and i enjoy them so like that's not it

so like the fall is the the fall if you if you describe them in

in technical terms is a band that i should not enjoy and it's probably why i

thought i wouldn't like them for as long as i did but listening to them and the

way that the pieces come together and the tones and timbres

like are all right for some reason

More than not. I would say they're never at the point where, you know, they're

never at the point where I'm like, oh, I really want to go listen to The Fall

right now. But at least for music that I do kind of have to force myself to

listen to or listen to as work, it rarely ever actually feels as much like

work as I'm going to think before I press play. There is something about...

the records that I've listened to by them, and particularly this one, that

has almost an instinctual response.

You know, there's something visceral about it that makes it feel a lot less

like pretentious art music.

We kind of touched on it a little bit there, my feelings on the band in

general and how I never want to listen to The Fall, and when I do, it is, I'm

with you, it's never as...

hard to listen to as I think it's going to be which you think that I would

remember that every time I go and listen to it but I think that just comes from

when I'm done with a fall record I don't even really know how to describe the

feeling I have when I'm finished with a fall record I listen to it and I'm in

the process of listening to it I'm like choices interesting choices don't hate

everything that's happening here like this thing don't like this

It's a weird, it's a rollercoaster kind of experience because it's like, there's

things I do like, there's things I don't like.

Ultimately, at the end, there isn't anything about the record, though, that

makes me want to come back to it, though.

So it's a strange, like, I don't know.

I'm not compelled to listen to The Fall for enjoyment.

And I don't want to outright just say, like, I don't like the record because

that's not actually true.

But maybe I don't.

I don't even know. I don't even know how to describe what I feel when I listen to

this. Maybe I don't. It's a process to listen to a fall record. And maybe

that's what I don't like is that it's like the homeworkness of it. It's the,

it does feel like a little bit of a chore to finish a fall record to me.

Well, yeah, I think maybe to an extent, you know, I think what you're getting at

is that it requires, it kind of requires analysis.

Yeah. while you're listening to it yeah that does seem fair it yeah yeah like

it's not something you can just get into and have fun with you kind of no are

checking in on yourself the entire time you're listening to it you're like is

this good am i liking this do i like this yeah yeah it's a bizarre phenomenon

like i can't it's not something it is the only thing i can relate it to is

when i watch like more challenging film is when i'm watching something and being

like Oh, Tetsuo the Iron Man.

Am I enjoying this? Is this fun? Is this entertaining?

I don't know. I'm thinking about it a lot.

That's something.

And then I will watch a movie that is like technically more straight ahead.

It's pretty like solid as a story, but doesn't really take any risks.

Then I'm kind of bored and kind of wondering like, how long is, you know,

when is this going to be over? You know, to me, that is a failure of a movie's or

an album's.

pacing abilities if i'm like when's this over and i look at it and there's like

half a record left or half a movie left i'm like i think this means i don't

enjoy this process but i don't know there are moments i think film is a very

good comparison for the fall like i think to make a comparison to other art

forms film makes sense because i understand what you mean about watching

a movie that is challenging or difficult or you know the story is unpleasant or

and is like you know painfully realistic or you know something that's like

cinematography is very advanced and it's like compositionally very interesting

but maybe the story's not that interesting or yeah it's there's more

facets to film maybe than music in terms of like critical analysis. And I think

that that's a thing that the fall manages to do musically.

It kind of requires you to dig into, like I said, that analysis that you're

having to do while you're listening to it. It's not as instantly accessible as

you're used to music being.

And the music that you want to listen to more often is going to be something that

you can.

not have to think about why they made the decision that they did about the

drums or the guitar tone or the vocal delivery or the, you know,

you're thinking about the atmosphere of the record a lot more than its contents.

In terms of its actual musical contents, this record in

particular and some of my favorite fall songs and As much as I can say I have

favorite fall records, the ones that I like the most, and I've probably said

this before, but they sound like evil B-52s.

Like, it's the dancey stuff.

It's the, which I should like their dance stuff more, their 90s dance stuff

more on that basis. But then that's getting into more like electronic dance

than it is. Yeah.

The retro garage rock and surf kind of musical.

things that they're doing especially when you add in the other vocalists you

know that kind of adds to the the atmosphere of it and breaks up the

monotony of mark but mark also has you know that fred schneider kind of

sprig of saying delivery you know it's it's a speech singing band with a groove

and rhythm section it's funny it is kind of a similar

tone i think right or or cadence it's ah who made the nazis and then like it's as

big as a whale it's like one is up one is down like it's but it's the same like

level that they live at that is funny yeah this is an interesting record in

the sense that like there are moments that i really enjoy i think dr or mr

pharmacist is a fun song that's like a fan favorite that they would play live

forever

It's a cover. It's just very weird that a cover would be something they just

kept in their set list.

Dr. Faustus, I think it's a pretty entertaining song as well.

Did you catch the part? I was reading the lyrics to that song and it's not in

the lyrics, but do you catch where Bix, Bex? No, Bix.

Bricks. I was thinking it's Guns of Brixton. I don't know why I couldn't

remember that.

Bricks. She's just like saying foods in the background.

And she says several times in that song, banana.

And I'm like, oh, she's a minion.

Brick's doing her Minion impression.

Are the Minions big The Fall fans?

Banana.

I thought that was fun. I think... What's the song?

Shorter Paths 1 and 2.

They have that synth thing that sounds like a whistle.

Like one of the most upbeat and bright,

catchy things on any Fall record I've ever heard is that whistle synth or

whatever you call it.

Yeah, the Shoulder Pads songs in particular make me think of the B-52s.

They feel like something that would be on a B-52s record.

There's stuff like Bournemouth Runner. Even though the song is too long itself,

it is fast and it has that kind of driving wire riff. To me, it was them

doing their version of Roadrunner. Yeah.

Bournemouth Runner.

He even sings the song kind of in a similar way.

Of the Modern Lovers song.

But it also, I think it starts really slow. It has a really slow intro. It

goes a really long time before then it just picks up and becomes a faster song.

Also Jonathan Richman, Prickly Weirdo.

Yeah. Yeah.

US 80s, 90s. That one's memorable.

But it's kind of mechanical.

Which, you could say that about most fall songs. But there was just something

especially mechanical about that one.

Yeah, that song works more than it doesn't for me. But it's kind of like...

It has elements that I'm like, I wish that this was in a better song overall.

Yeah. Terry Waits has a pretty strong track there. It's kind of short, too.

It's not a very long one.

Brick sings a lot on that one.

Yeah, it's got that kind of fun surfy guitar lick on it. I wish that song was

longer. Yeah, that one I would actually take a longer song from.

You know what I would take a lot less of is Living Too Late.

That was a little too long for me. Yeah.

Living Too Late and Riddler.

Gross Chapel, British Grenadiers.

That's way too long of a song, too.

Everything I kept reading was like, that was their Joy Division song.

I was like, well, don't do any more of that, because I don't like when you do

that. It just is like, the fall's already too slow.

And then when you try and do, like, sometimes they're too slow. Not always,

but a lot of times they're slow.

And then trying to do, like, Joy Division slow?

I'm like, eh.

I don't like it. That's a 7 minute and 20 second song.

Longest song on the record?

Yep, it is.

Yeah. Bournemouth Runners, 605. Riddler, 622.

I should have listened to the vinyl track list, and I wonder if I would have

enjoyed it more.

Because that's where they don't include Living Too Late or Autotech Pilot on

there. And they don't really feel like they added much to me, for me.

Yeah. Yeah, they don't. Those two songs are...

unnecessary and looking at that track listing the the lp version of it i like

it better right like gross chapel and us 80s 90s that feels like

less of a slog without living too late in between yeah yeah living too late

is uh another it's a four and a half minute song yeah i think i probably

would enjoy the flow a little bit better without those which Makes sense because

it was recorded without those songs. And those are just added for. Yeah.

We could fit it on a cassette and a CD, you know. Well, and you also have your

LP split between Gross Chapel, British Grenadiers and U.S. 80s, 90s. Which

helps. Also, U.S. 80s, 90s is faster than Gross Chapel, British Grenadiers.

And then it's like 80s, 90s. Then Terry Wade says, I think it would make

Bournemouth Runner a little easier to get through.

Riddler, I don't know.

Yeah, Riddler just kind of plods along. It feels so unnecessary of a song,

because it has probably some of the least interesting musical ideas.

Yeah. Though I do think the idea of ending the record on shoulder pads

number two, that's an odd choice, too.

Like, that's the final track of the LP version.

But I almost wonder if they would have made that the end of track one, or side

one, if it would have had a fun little symmetry there, too.

I don't know.

Yeah, I look at the track list with the bonus tracks, the single tracks. It it

looks like a harder record to get through.

So that's that is an interesting.

Oh, weird. OK, what is this?

So they've done this record has like a weird subtitle. It's also subtitled the

Domesday Payoff Triad.

I don't know what that means. I'm not entirely sure what that means. It just

kind of means like nonsense, I think.

But it has a different track listing, too. But I don't know if that's just

bonus tracks or what, but it's.

It's weird. There's like songs that are not on the record on there. I think

that's bonus tracks. It has to be. Cause I don't think it's a, yeah, that's like

an 87 bonus version of it. Yeah. Weird.

Yeah. There's a ghost in my house.

Hey, Luciani, Hoff found Borman, but it has most of the other stuff.

Yeah. It moves them around a lot though.

Like Mr. Farmers is about the only one that's in the same spot.

Oh, Domesday Payoff is the re-sequenced American version of Ben Sinister.

Ah.

You know, those re-sequenced American versions are almost never better,

though. Because they've done it, we've talked about a few in the past, and it's

just like, I don't, that wasn't the move.

I think you messed it up. They put R.O.D. on the B side.

Which I think is a bad opener. I don't think R.O.D. is a great opener.

I think it's too slow.

But it loses Dr.

Faustus entirely.

Yeah, I don't know that this re-sequencing, I don't know what the new

stuff, the different stuff is. There's a Ghost in My House, I think, is a cover.

Yeah, it's a Motown song.

Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I would like that version.

Yeah, it doesn't look like an improvement.

No, it doesn't. I don't know what they were thinking with that.

Yeah, I think the vinyl version might be the way to go. That might be the

sequence to go.

Because it's still a 43-minute album that way.

It's a long record.

With the other tracks, it's like a 50-something minute album.

That's tough, too.

It's just 50-minute albums. You've got to be a really good record to be 50

minutes long and for me to really want to come back to it.

I'd say this record probably has the most stuff I want to hear again. I do

think Dr.

Faustus, Shoulder Paths, Mr.

Pharmacist, Terry Wade Says are all probably some of the more enjoyable

songs that I've heard by the fall that I would want to come back to.

It is funny, on the streaming version, I could always tell when I got to those

bonus tracks, though, because they sounded production-wise very different.

Like, obviously different, to the point where I was like, that's not a good

mastering job, you know, to get those on there.

It's almost as if the album was mastered, and then the label was just

like, and we just stuck the other songs in there without, like, trying to master

it to the rest of the album.

I don't know, it's an interesting group of performers, too.

I think you got to be a little bit of a weirdo to want to be in the fall too.

Especially by this point.

Yeah. Like Hanley had been in the band for a while.

Scanlon had been in the band for a while.

Wollstonecraft would stay in the band for a while. Bricks would stay for a

little while longer. She was married to Mark.

They would get divorced in like 90, 89 or 90.

And then she would quit.

And then he would bring his next wife in to play like keys later.

It's like, he just keeps doing that.

I put all the women I'm dating in my bands.

Yeah, probably some element of being a control freak there.

Yeah.

Would not be surprised. You have a little more influence.

Yeah, it probably helps them to be like, oh, I got a voice in the room with me at

all times, so we're not going to argue with me.

I think that original run of people who were all just like, fuck you, Mark, and

just quit the band were probably the other voices.

And I think they said when Branham quit, they were like, that was the last equal

to Mark in the band to quit the band.

Because everything after that, it becomes the Mark E. Smith band from that

point on.

Which is very early in the band's career. Like, it's not even that long.

I tried to read lyrics.

Fall lyrics make no sense.

That's just it. I tried to read them. I was just like, I don't know what any of

this is about. I read some interviews where he talked about what some of the

songs were about. And I'm just like, ah.

U.S. 80s, 90s is about how when he came back to the U.S., I guess probably for a

tour, he was like, it felt like I was in Russia.

It felt like I was in communist Russia.

But he said it was like that only in the 80s when they went in there, like after

Reagan was elected. He said that's when it changed. He said before that, it felt

like a country you went into and could actually feel freedom.

It was his description of it. He's like, you go there and you're like, wow, this

is the land of the free.

And then when they went back with Reagan, it was like, Oh, it was like

Russia because they'd been to Russia, too. They toured the whole world. So

they got to see the actual countries and they were just like, oh, America sucks

now. Which if you really think about how things are now, it does kind of trace

back to Reagan.

Yeah. A lot of what we have today is a direct line from what started with the

Reagan administration.

So, yeah.

Yeah, it's funny because Mark, you know, he's like kind of conservative, has been

conservative off and on.

I don't know that he's uniformly conservative, but I think he supported

the Falklands War.

I don't know.

Yeah, it's weird.

I mean, he constantly talks about how he's not a socialist, not an anarchist.

He's not, you know, all these other things.

So he doesn't really hold like super strong leftist views on anything.

I don't know. I don't know what he is.

I mean, was, I guess. But I also don't see him being like a supporter of the

Iraq War and David Cameron and that kind of stuff either. So I don't know.

Who knows with him?

But yeah, like I said, I tried to read lyrics. I don't know. I couldn't get

anything myself.

Album cover. It's a pretty cool album cover. It's like a black and white

photo. It looks like a duplication, like constantly Xeroxed this photo, and they

used three different iterations of it for the front cover.

The liner notes have more of a collage-y kind of look to it, and apparently

it's... A bunch of different photographers contributed pictures for

the liner notes.

Most famous is Jeff Veach, who did the photo cover for Killing Jokes Nighttime,

which is one of the ones where he's standing on the cover and looking like a

crooner, almost, on it.

Review-wise, I found some reviews, but only two that I felt like really

highlighting. So there's one here from Far Out.

I think it's a magazine.

And they were talking about it for the, I think it was like the 35th anniversary

of the record.

And so...

Here's what they say.

There would be no point eulogizing his wild ways if there was no substance to

prop them up. Him being Marky Smith. What separated him from the average

wayward wayfarer traversing the cobbled streets of Salford.

This review also is written like Marky Smith wrote it. What separated him from

the average wayward wayfarer.

Yeah.

But anyway, separating him from the average wayward wayfarer, traversing the

cobbled streets of Salford was a style of poetry akin to Charles Baudelaire

after 12 pints of super strength lager with the kaleidoscopic colorings of a

particularly caustic John Cooper Clark and the biggest fuck you attitude that

the world has seen since John the Baptist.

The author of this article is pretty smart because they did that alliteration

before the John Cooper Clark.

Yeah, because that is all John Cooper Clark is alliteration. Yeah.

Alliterated nursery rhymes. Yeah. Ben Sinister saw this one-man army

approaching his human wrecking ball peak.

Naturally, it wasn't an album that catapulted the irascible fringe hero to

stardom, but 36 in the UK charts was the mid-latitude heights of purgatory, and

that's as lofty as a bastard like Smith was ever set to reach.

The line of saying...

Charles Baudelaire after 12 pints of super strength lager and the

kaleidoscopic colorings of the particularly caustic John Cooper Clark.

When I read that John Cooper Clark thing, I was like, fuck, that's what it

is. It's the same thing to me.

If John Cooper Clark was good?

Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, yeah, if John Cooper Clark wasn't just baby

nursery rhymes and all alliteration, it would be Marky Smith.

And I bet those two.

Okay, I bet John Cooper Clark liked Mark E. Smith, and I bet Mark E. Smith hated

John Cooper Clark.

Probably.

Yeah.

Because he's the version of him that he doesn't want to be, is really what it

is. He's the pop version of what he's doing.

By the way, you were in the UK. You sent me a picture of John Cooper Clark on

your television.

Yeah, it was... What was it? What's the show? Eight Out of...

you know 10 cats does countdown does countdown yeah um yeah i watched like a

second of that and he was on it so i i sent you a picture of it yeah yeah

watching british tv was funny they really do show a lot of peep show and

red dwarf they just show it all the time like uh what's the channel dave that

does red dwarf dave's like the rerun channel it's like yeah they they always

make jokes about like mock the week when they were, well, they're back now. They

used to be, they were canceled for a few years, but they used to always, they

would do like a joke where they would be like, and in five years on Dave, you'll

see this joke and you'll think, what, what are they talking about? It's just

very funny. Cause it's a topical political show, but they would rerun it

on Dave, which is just like, why?

No one knows what you're talking about anymore.

There was one channel that would do like an hour of peep show at like 10 o'clock

or something.

I think they famously, like, showed a lot of The Simpsons back then, too.

Like, in the UK, too. They're just, like, always showing The Simpsons. I

don't know if that's still a thing, but... There was a lot of antiques

shows.

Like, people buying antiques and trying to auction them off for profit.

Or, like, doing restorations on antiques.

There's multiple shows that I saw that were like that.

There was, um...

There was this one game show that we watched a lot that because there was

like nothing else on that was basically, you know, the coin game at the arcade

where you put the coins in and it drops them down into the machine. And like

you're supposed to like pile the coins up and there's the little thing that

pushes the coins to the edge and you're trying to get like the most coins to

fall. Yeah.

It was a giant board of that.

And you would play to win.

money and then like you would drop coins to win money but then once

you ran out of coins you had to answer trivia questions to get coins to drop

for money so it was it was half just dropping coins into this machine

and half answering the easiest trivia questions you've ever heard

and getting them wrong It sounds like a Price is Right thing

as a TV show, as the only game.

Yeah. A Price is Right game is the whole show?

Yeah. Like the ones where it's like, now if you can figure out which of these two

things, you know, cost more of the two, you'll get a coin that you could then

use to end the game.

Like for Plinko. That's how they do Plinko.

But yeah, like the trivia questions were so easy. And they're like, and...

But it was so funny, too, because like the money that they were earning from

the coin machine was not a lot.

I mean, they're like thirty six hundred pounds.

It's like that's that's kind of not a lot for a game show.

I mean, maybe you actually stand a chance of actually getting that money.

Yeah, you might actually.

They make American, you know, game shows. It's like, oh, you won a million

dollars, but you actually don't because.

You either take the payout or you take the lifetime payment. It's like the

lottery. You can take the lifetime payment or the lump sum. And the lump

sum is like a third.

Yeah. I got one little shorter review from Trouser Press that I'm going to

quote from.

Named for a novel by Vladimir Nabokov, Ben Sinister is a rather gloomy, dark

-sounding record.

Minor keys and Joy Division-like guitar riffing dominate tracks like US 80s,

90s, and Gross Chapel British Grenadiers.

And then in the middle of all that is Shoulder Pads, one of the poppiest, most

upbeat songs they've ever done.

Multi-instrumentalist Simon Rogers has become the fall's chief sound shaper,

providing all kinds of odd synths and guitar fills and embellishments.

And yeah, I thought those there were other reviews, but like I read one

interview. I was telling you this before you record. I read one interview that

was so British that I was like, I feel like I'm reading another language.

Every reference and every comment and everything in this interview is like 80

is written in the 80s, like 88 or something like that. And it was just it

just felt like I was reading nonsense.

And it just kind of reminds me. It's like, oh, yeah, it's.

The world has gotten a little smaller in this with the advent of the internet. So

now like people are starting to talk the same way around the world. So it's, it's

making a little more sense now than like back then. It was just like, you had to

live in England for six months to understand half the interviews I was

reading. It was weird.

Well, let's see the aftermath. So The Fall are known for being one of the most

prolific bands in the UK punk scene.

They released 31 studio albums, not to count live albums and compilations,

which Mark E. Smith was against. He did not want live albums and compilations

released, but there are a ton of those too.

They also had 66 members of the band throughout various points.

And with a third of the members staying less than a year, Mark is known for

being an extremely difficult musician.

And members would frequently argue and sometimes physically fight.

There have been 66 members of The Fall over the years.

We've only mentioned 17 of The Fall's members.

Think about how many more people that is that have yet to even enter The Fall

that we didn't even mention yet.

I think in the 2000s, he might have been at his worst when it came to people

staying in the band. I think that's the period where he's just like changing

members every six months.

Wild.

Marky Smith is the only constant of the band for their entire run, and he would

eventually pass away in January 2018.

He had two different forms of cancer. I think he had stomach and lung cancer.

He was a very heavy drug and alcohol user for his entire life.

He would go through periods of more sobriety than others, but never

completely sober, never completely clean. He would always just... be doing

something um he was like a constant smoker too they said he like smoked non

-stop so it probably explains where the lung cancer came from and i wouldn't be

surprised if the stomach cancer came from all the alcohol he drank because

they are saying there are links between alcohol and cancer so yeah yeah he lived

a rough life but it sounds like he lived the life he wanted to live yeah i mean i

think he chose it i don't think he could do anything else it's one of those kind

of people I don't think he wanted to do anything else.

Yeah. Wouldn't even entertain the idea of attempting anything else in his life.

Yeah.

I don't know. Final thoughts on the record though.

Yeah. I mean, I enjoy the record. I think it has its flaws and I think every

fall record does.

I think it's, I think the fall are a case by case band.

Um, I think I just, uh, at the end of the day, If I'm

entertained about half the time, I think I'm pretty happy with a fall record.

That is a glowing review. I liked half the album.

I know what you mean, though.

I would say as far as the fall records I have listened to, I probably enjoyed

this one on the higher end. I probably like this more than some of the other

ones I've heard. I don't think it's my favorite, but I also cannot tell you

what that would be either. So that kind of shows you my relationship with the

fall.

And with this episode, I will probably never listen to Ben Sinister ever again.

Fair enough. I mean... It's... Okay.

I think it's music that I can just intellectually recognize as good, but I

don't actively enjoy.

It would be how I describe The Fall. I don't like it, but I get it. And I

respect it. That's probably where I am with it.

Rating-wise, I would give it... I'm giving it a 3.25.

What about you?

I think I'm at like a four.

Oh, wow. Okay.

You know, it's a record that I probably like a lot more than I can

properly express.

And I don't know.

The thing with The Fall, you know, I think it's music that I, the music I

respect and enjoy more than the person who made it.

Cause I don't think I like, I, I would say I definitely don't like Mark as a

person. Oh yeah. Yeah. As a person.

Um, which is kind of a whole weird layer to listening to anything by the fall.

Yeah. I mean, how much does liking the person who makes the music really matter

though? If you really think about it.

Yeah. I mean, if the person like is a bad person, then I, yeah, that's one

thing, but like, yeah.

As far as just like, oh, I think there's an argument to be made that maybe he's a

bad person.

Yeah. Yeah.

But I mean, you know, I still like Black Flag Records and Greg Gantz sucks.

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

It's one of those things where it's like, did he do anything like actually

bad enough to be like, oh, that's never again? Or is it just more like, I think

he's just a massive asshole who's like unpleasant to be around.

It's not a crime. Doesn't mean you have to like him, but.

Yeah. Interesting. Interesting band.

I don't know if we'll ever be picking another fall record for the show. So

this one, I guess kind of served as our, here's everything we feel about the

fall. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know that any other records that we could cover in the

future, I would have substantially different things to say.

So probably not. This is probably the one.

Yeah.

The only thing I would be considered like.

interesting to look at would be later career because i don't know what that is

i don't know what it even looks like like sonically musically creatively like

i don't know what late you know post dance fall is even like it's kind of how

i feel about that about late period new order late period wire it's like what am

i going to actually say about them like oh this period is not as good as the old

period oh okay that's kind of what we thought but it's still like got merit i

don't know it's tough to say but All right. Well, I think that will do it for

us, though. So I appreciate each and every one of you for listening and hope

you enjoyed the episode.

You can follow us everywhere on social media at punklottopod, punklottopod at

gmail.com. Our voicemail line, 202-688-PUNK. We'll play it on the show

and punklottopod at gmail.com. Did I say that? Yeah, that's our email address.

Where are we following you online?

You can find me at Husker Dillon or Major Awards Band.

I'll start teasing this now because I scheduled it for release. The next major

awards single is coming out at the end of May.

Nice!

Some more details on that one as we get closer. Maybe we'll come up. I also

don't do shoot interviews, so maybe I won't.

It's only going to be the work.

Just cave vape, brother. Cave vape.

All right, that'll do it. So thank you all so much for listening. We appreciate

you, and we will talk to you all next time.

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