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Hi, everybody. Still at home.
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Thanks for joining me on Apple TV+.
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During this time, I know a lot of people are feeling
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the sense of being isolated
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and the uncertainty of not knowing
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when is this going to end,
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when are we gonna be released back into the world.
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Well, I know a man who knows a lot about that.
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Back in 2016,
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I met Shaka Senghor.
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Let me tell you about him.
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He not only survived an extreme form of isolation,
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but taught himself to use that time
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to grow and improve his life.
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At 19, Shaka was convicted of second-degree murder,
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served 19 years in prison for four consecutive years.
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He was alone in solitary confinement
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inside a 6 by 9-foot cell
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with no link to the outside world
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and never knowing if he would ever get out.
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He shared his story in his New York Times bestselling memoir.
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Great memoir, it is.
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Writing My Wrongs.
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I wanted to talk to him again now because
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even if you think you can't relate to something
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as extreme as prison,
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I think we can learn from how
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he was able to endure isolation.
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Real isolation.
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Morning, Shaka, Shaka!
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-Good morning, how are you? -How you doing?
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-Good to see you. -I'm good.
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Likewise. So good to see you as well.
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Well, thanks for sending me the article that you did
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on the onset of this pandemic
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where you wrote for Medium,
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What Four Years in Solitary Confinement
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Taught Me About Surviving Isolation.
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I want to talk about that in a moment.
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But for people who are meeting you for the first time--
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there may be a few around the world--
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can you explain to them how you grew up,
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what your dreams were,
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and how you ended up in prison in solitary confinement?
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Yeah, so I grew up in the city of Detroit
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in what on the outside looking in
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was a model for working middle-class black America.
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Two-parent household.
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But unfortunately, there were things happening
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inside of our household.
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[Oprah] Not just two-parent household.
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Two-parent household, beautiful tree-lined street,
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you know, the American dream.
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Absolutely, yeah. I mean, every--
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we were living like the black Brady Brunch.
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I mean, that's how my siblings and I always described it
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in terms of, like, you know, we had the brick home,
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you know, sitting right in the middle of the block,
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fruit trees all around, and everything
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you could imagine a great start for a kid would be.
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-And during that time-- -You were a straight A student.
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Had dreams of becoming a doctor.
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[Shaka] Yeah, absolutely.
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I wanted to be a doctor, and, you know,
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growing up, that was my vision.
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You know, I thought that would be a career profession
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that my mother would be proud of and would love.
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But unfortunately,
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things weren't always what they appeared in the household
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and I found myself running away
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when I was around 13 or 14 years old.
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And,
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you know, I ended up in this street culture,
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a very adult street culture.
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I was super naive and easily manipulated
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like so many other young men and women are
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in that culture, you know, where they get exploited
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by older, more seasoned hustlers.
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And I experienced every imaginable horror
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that comes with that culture,
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from childhood friends being murdered
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to being robbed at gunpoint,
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and eventually, at the age of 17,
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I was shot multiple times
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standing on the corner of my block.
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And one of the things that I recognize now very clearly
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is the level of PTSD that came as a result of that experience
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and how that impacted my life decisions.
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And 16 months later,
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found myself in a conflict about 2:00 in the morning.
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And that conflict escalated relatively quickly.
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And I fired what turned out to be four fatal shots
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that tragically caused a man's death.
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I was subsequently arrested, charged with open murder,
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and sentenced to a total of 17 to 40 years in prison.
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And you served how many years? 19?
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I eventually served a total of 19 years.
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Seven of those years was in solitary confinement
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with the longest stretch being 4 1/2 years straight.
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And now you've come out and done miraculous things.
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You've been out now ten years.
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[Shaka] Yeah, June will mark my tenth year at home.
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It's been an unbelievable journey
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of second chances,
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something I'm a great advocate of.
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I believe in the power of redemption
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largely because I live it.
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I life my life fully transparent
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and present in the turnaround.
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And, you know, I knew that when I came back home,
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one of my biggest responsibilities
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was serving the community,
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especially young men and women who have grown up
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in an environment similar to where I came from.
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And I knew I wanted to lend my voice to them
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in a real meaningful way.
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Yeah, one of the things you said that struck me
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in 2016 for Super Soul Sunday--
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it's still one of my favorite interviews of all time.
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[Shaka] Mine as well.
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[Oprah] What struck me is that you said
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you believed and knew in your heart
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that nobody is the worst thing they've ever done.
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Yeah, absolutely, I mean--
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And that's why redemption is necessary, yeah.
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Yeah, I mean, you know, when I reflected back,
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for years, it took me a long time to get there
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because I felt so guilty for the decision I made.
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And I felt horrible. I felt horrible as a person.
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[stammers] You know, it took me a long time to get--
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'Cause you took another man's life.
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Absolutely, and devastated a family
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and caused a great deal of harm to my community.
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And, you know, that was one of the things
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that made it hard for me to come to that realization
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that that was one moment in my life.
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So in that ten years that
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you have been out of prison,
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you have done extraordinary work
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to turn your life around and to show yourself
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to be worthy of that redemption.
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What are you most proudest of
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that you've done in the past ten years being free?
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Yeah, I think the thing that I'm most proud of
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is the impact I've been able to have on young men and women
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through the various schools that I've adopted
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throughout the country.
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It enriches my life
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in ways that I never even thought possible.
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[Oprah] Mm.
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You were in pri--
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during those years where you were in--
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which brings us to why we're talking about this pandemic.
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You were in the mainstream prison for a period of time,
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but you were in solitary confinement,
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like, in a 5 by 7 prison cell,
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alone, for how long?
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Yes, so it was a 23-hour lockdown
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five days out of the week,
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24 hours the other two days.
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I served a total of seven years in solitary,
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but 4 1/2 years straight
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was the longest I served in solitary.
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-Wow. -Yeah.
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And so... [chuckles]
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There are people who are now, as you know--
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that's why you wrote that article--
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feeling isolated with three weeks.
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And you have a few things to say about
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how to deal with isolation.
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How does one not lose one's mind?
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One of the things that I realized
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when I was in solitary the last time,
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the first two years, I was very anxious.
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I was very stressed out.
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And I realized that I was trying to control things
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that were beyond my control.
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And so what I did is,
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I began to shift the way that I saw the environment,
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shift the way that I saw myself,
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and realized that I can only focus on
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what was in front of me, what I can control,
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and focus on the moment.
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I think as humans, we tend to live in two places
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that we just don't have any control over--
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our pasts, which no longer exists,
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and the future that hasn't arrived yet,
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and a lot of times, we miss the magic of the moment.
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And for me, I knew that if I can get past
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the pain of those moments,
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I can come out on the other side.
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And it's one of the reasons
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I decided to write the piece for Medium.
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Yes, well, you wrote this about your time in prison.
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"There were days when the ghosts of the past
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and the uncertainty of the future
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threatened to crush the little bit of hope I had
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of ever being free."
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And you go on to say,
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"Remember each moment is all we really have."
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So I think this present moment living,
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which I've been talking about for 20 years on my past show,
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on Super Soul Sunday,
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being able to live in the present moment
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'cause that's all we have--
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how did you learn to do that for yourself,
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and how can you help other people get it?
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I think the first steps was just reading.
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I was reading everything I could get my hands on
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'cause I really wanted to understand
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how we process things in the midst of trauma,
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and who I had become in the midst of my own trauma.
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And so reading and meditating--
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you know, I started meditating when I was about 20 years old
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and I was in solitary at the time.
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And I had--I didn't even know what the word "meditation" was,
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but I came across this pamphlet,
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and it was just like, you know, focus on your breathing.
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And I remember those first moments were horrifying
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because everything that, you know,
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bad had happened in my life was coming up, and I was like,
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"Oh, I don't want to deal with all this."
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But I stayed with it.
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And so being able to center myself in that way
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has just been one of the best gifts.
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Well, after many years in prison
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and a lot of spiritual reflection,
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I know from your book, Writing My Wrongs,
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which is still one of my favorite memoirs ever,
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that you were finally able to turn your cell into--
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that 5 by 7 cell into a space of enlightenment,
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of creativity.
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You made your cell a space of higher learning.
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Absolutely, one of the--
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I knew that the only thing I had control over is my mind
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and what is in my mind, and I was really fortunate.
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I had some of the most incredible mentors
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when I was in prison.
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These men gave me books-- the importance of me
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even when I didn't believe in myself.
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They saw something in me.
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And I'm so thankful that they guided me to books
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because when I was in solitary, I structured my days
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as if I was at a university of higher learning.
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And I would study and I would read and I would write.
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And writing for me was like meditation.
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Like, I'd journal.
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It was the first time I had began a journal,
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and to really see myself clearly
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through the written word was so powerful
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because I understood that my thinking had lead me there
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and I believed in the laws
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that if it can lead me down a path of negativity,
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it can absolutely lead me down a path of positivity
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'cause those laws are unwavering.
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It's just all about the focus,
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and so journaling helped me see that.
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Writing letters to my family and friends
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really helped me see myself clearly.
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Creating a vision board, you also did.
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I knew never this until I read this Medium article
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that you created a vision board--
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did you ever tell me?
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I don't think you told me this--
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that you created a vision board,
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and I was on that vision board.
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Absolutely.
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The vision board that you wanted to one day
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be interviewed by me.
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[Shaka] Yes.
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And then that ended up happening.
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Yeah, so when I wrote my first book,
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I wrote my first book in solitary.
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And I asked the guys on the tier
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if they wanted to read the book.
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And one of the guys was like, "Man, be quiet.
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This is not Oprah's book club."
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And instead of getting upset, I was like, "This is a goal.
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I want to be interviewed by the woman who loves to read books."
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-And I wrote that goal down. -[chuckles]
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You've been working to make sure
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we don't turn our backs on the prison population.
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I was talking to Dr. Bruce Perry the other day
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and we were sharing--
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as you and I have discussed too--
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that when we all come out of this,
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the people who were marginalized before
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are going to be even marginalized now
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and it is up to those of us who are people of privilege
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to do what we can.
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What do you want people to know about
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the men and women who are currently incarcerated,
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and how we can show them compassion?
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It is the scariest thing right now.
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I literally just got off a call this morning
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with a friend of mine-- he's one of my mentors,
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one of my longest-serving mentors.
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He's getting out of prison in a few weeks.
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He just served 47 years.
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And he said it is horrifying in there right now.
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They don't have enough information,
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so they've given some people masks.
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But they haven't given them information
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on how to maintain the sanitary--
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sanitizing the masks.
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Just recently, I raised money to send 100,000 masks
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to several jails and prisons throughout the country.
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You did that with Reform Alliance, right?
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With Meek Mill and Jay-Z, yeah.
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Yeah, Reform Alliance.
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And we partnered on that and I had some donors who said,
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"Hey, let's help."
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But it's horrifying in there right now.
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And we really have to think about--
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we have the freedom to socially distance.
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Women and men in prison, they don't, you know?
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So they're forced to be in cells together,
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oftentimes in big spaces where there's, you know,
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30 to 40 men or women at any given time in one space
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with limited access to showers and things like that.
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And, you know, the reality is, if we don't act now,
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we really have a humanity crisis on our hands.
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And I think this is a defining moment for us as Americans,
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is we're either going to realize
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that we're really courageous or we're really cowardly.
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And so, you know, it's--
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you know, you're thinking about people who are at home
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insecure with food, insecure--
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like, this is our time to redefine
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what is possible for our country.
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Yeah, it's also a time for us to redefine ourselves.
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Those who have children at home
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and relationships with our children--
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I know over the years, every time I'd ask people,
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you know, "What would make you happy?"
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People always said,
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"Oh, just being able to spend more time with my children."
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[laughter]
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People want to have so much time with their children.
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They're like, "Something else would make me happy."
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But I know you have a beautiful son, Sekou.
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What are you telling Sekou about this time,
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and how are you managing your time with him?
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[Shaka] So Sekou is a wonderful child.
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Ebony and I, his mom, we started early on
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really just talking to him as, you know,
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we were talking to one of our peers.
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So he's very informed. He loves to learn.
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And the more he knows about something,
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the less anxiety he feels, you know?
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-[Oprah] Yeah. -[Shaka] So Sekou and I,
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we've been making dance videos.
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We've started this little book club.
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[laughs]
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So he's having so much fun
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just making his little videos about books he read.
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Oh, Sekou trying to give me competition
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with the Sekou Book Club.
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Listen, Sekou is hilarious with his book club.
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So as one who's spent a lot of time being self-isolated,
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you don't feel that this time is an isolating time.
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No, I mean, there's a very,
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you know, big difference, you know?
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And I really want people to really get this
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'cause I think people are being a little bit harsh
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on themselves even with the language.
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This is quarantine.
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We still have the option to go out in our backyard
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and walk around.
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We still can safely socially distance
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as we go out into the grocery store.
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You know, obviously, we want people to be safe.
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But there is a difference between quarantine
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and not having your freedom
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and not having the ability to socially isolate.
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Exercise even without the gym.
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I mean, there's so many different ways.
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When I was in prison,
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I would roll my mattress up and tie a sheet around it
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and then I would just use that to exercise with.
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I mean, you could put water in jugs and things like that.
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So there's so many things that we have at our advantage--
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Or--or, Shak, you could learn to make prison wine.
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Absolutely, I would definitely teach a course on that.
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[laughter]
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Prison wine.
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We should do, like, a master class on it.
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Oh, my gosh.
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A lot of geniuses using their imagination in prison.
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-Absolutely -Well, thank you so much.
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This is a good time, everybody, to read Shaka's book,
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Writing My Wrongs, one of the best memoirs ever.
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-[Shaka] Oh, thank you so much. -[Oprah] Thank you so much.
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Thank you so much. Shaka Senghor, thank you.
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-Talk soon. -Talk soon.
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-Bye. -Bye.
30793
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