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Hi, everybody. We're still on lockdown.
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Hope you are too.
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Maybe you saw-- I hope you did--
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the conversation with Anthony Ray Hinton,
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who survived 30 years on death row
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in solitary confinement.
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He had a few things to say about how
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we can manage our feelings in this crisis now.
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He's a survivor,
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and I wanted you to meet another survivor.
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Her name is Dr. Edith Eva Eger.
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She survived the Holocaust,
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actually had to dance for Mengele,
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when she first arrived in the death camp.
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And she wrote a book called
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The Choice: Embrace the Possible.
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And her message that none of us
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has to ever be a victim to our circumstances.
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No matter what the circumstance,
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we all have the ability through our mind to rise.
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And so today, our conversation,
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Oprah Talks with Dr. Edith Eger.
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Hello, Dr. Edith Eva Eger.
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-How are you? -[chuckles]
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Hello, hello, hello, Oprah Winfrey,
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the beautiful role model to us all.
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Oh, thank you so much.
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So you're 92.
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And up until this, were-- this virus,
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you were still seeing clients every day,
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helping them overcome their trauma.
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How are you and your own family managing in this moment?
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Oh, I couldn't be more excited to tell you
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that any moment,
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my grandson's wife is expecting twins.
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Oh.
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I'm going to have six great grandsons pretty soon.
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That is beautiful. That is beautiful.
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So have you been-- you've been sheltering in place.
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You've been staying at home, obviously.
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I am. I am.
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But it doesn't stop me from
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being as active as I can be
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and doing what I was called to do,
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to guide people from victimization to empowerment
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and to see that all this is temporary,
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not permanent.
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[Oprah] Well, you know it was almost a year ago
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that we sat down...
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-Yes. -At my home.
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-To discuss-- -In the Maya Angelou--
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Yes, in the Maya Angelou room here
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to discuss The Choice: Embrace the Possible.
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And I told you then and I still believe
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I love that title because I think it's so relevant today,
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particularly when so many people are feeling stressed
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and out of control and a sense of uncertainty.
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But as one who has been through one of the most stressful,
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uncertain, and atrocious experiences
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in the history of the world, surviving the Holocaust,
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what do you want to say to people at this moment?
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I'd like to say to people
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that we are all in shock right now
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because that was totally unexpected and unanticipated.
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And to be able to allow ourselves,
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give ourselves permission
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to feel the feelings of hopelessness,
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and yet not allow us to become less than who we are.
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And ask ourselves, "Is this the best I can do?"
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And chances are
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that I hopefully can give people the tools
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how to think about their thinking,
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which will create the feeling not to ever give up hope.
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And find the hope in hopelessness
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and to be able to somehow become much stronger for it,
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because we're never gonna be the same.
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We are never going to be the same.
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-Never. -As a country, as world.
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Why do you say that?
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Because any experience
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makes you stronger if you survive.
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That means that you have the mentality
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of finding some good in everything,
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that this is a wake-up call, that this is time out,
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and to be able to really see in what we--
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we can empower each other
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to stretch our comfort zone
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and to really find a way to become survivors,
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and never, ever to be victims of anything, anyone,
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or any circumstance.
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Well, I think it's difficult when--
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I think you're right, obviously.
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You're the therapist, I'm not, and I think--
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I've often thought of it in terms of,
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we have to go through the five stages of grief.
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-Yes. -Beginning with shock.
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And then denial.
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Everybody's still feeling like they can go out and do whatever.
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Until we--and then being upset about it--
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anger-- and work our way to acceptance,
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which is the final stage of any grieving process.
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-[Dr. Eger] Yes. -Work our way to acceptance
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so that we can begin the work
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of doing what we need to do in this moment.
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Oh, how beautifully said.
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Elisabeth Kubler-Ross is wonderful in telling us
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that there are stages of grief,
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and anger is not the primary emotion,
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because when we're angry,
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chances are that we expected something different
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than what is happening.
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There is a gap between expectation on one hand
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and reality on the other.
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And then you go back and ask yourself,
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are my expectations realistic or unrealistic?
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People can ask themselves,
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"Is this the best I can do, what am I doing now,
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ad how's it working for me?"
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To have a goal and then focus on what you're focusing on
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and see whether it can get you to the point in time
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that this time is to regroup,
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and not only that, but re-decide--
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re-decide--
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what am I doing with something I cannot change...
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-Wow. -From the outside.
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So I will really pay attention
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to my attitude and the way I respond.
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Not to react.
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Because when you react, you don't think.
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You shoot from the hip.
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To be able to respond
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just like we were able to practice that in Auschwitz
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because we didn't know what's going to happen next.
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We didn't know whether water or gas is gonna come out.
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So there's a big difference between stress and distress.
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Mm.
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You know, you survived Auschwitz and then later--
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later you earned two Master's degrees
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and a PhD in psychology,
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became this expert trauma therapist,
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where you're still doing that in San Diego.
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Oh, absolutely.
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You of all people are uniquely qualified,
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I think, to guide us in this moment
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in managing our fears and anxiety right now.
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So you just said we have to be in a position to respond.
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What are the steps,
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actual steps we need to be taking right now
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to keep ourselves sane and whole?
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I think it's very good to pick an arrow that you follow.
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You want to be sure
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that you are not running away
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from the feelings of rage.
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And it's okay to express the rage,
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because you cannot really forgive
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unless you go through the rage.
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You know, the shock, the denial, anger--
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the anger has, underneath,
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a lot of fear.
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Mm-hmm.
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And fear and love does not coexist.
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Right.
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So to be able to let go of something,
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but you cannot let go of anything
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unless you replace it with something else.
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It's just like a trapeze artist.
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You hold on because you have a fear of falling,
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whether it's, you know-- there's something or not.
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But I think it's very important
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to acknowledge that you just cannot let go
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unless you have another way to look at the situation.
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It's the same situation.
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The question is
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how you can look at it from a different perspective.
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[Oprah] And once--
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To offer the different perspective.
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Okay, so you once said in the book The Choice,
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which we all have,
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that being alone is really the best company you can have.
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[Dr. Eger] You've got it.
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And I think that's important
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for a lot of people to understand right now.
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I think for a lot of people, and I know some,
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that this is the first time they've had this much alone time
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and this much time with their families ever.
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I couldn't say it better.
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This is the time for you that you didn't have before,
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so consider it an opportunity
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for discoveries, not recovery,
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but to discover the kind of skills
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that I discovered in Auschwitz.
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This is the time to see
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how we can unite as people to--
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to hold hand in hand
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and create the family of--
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of wonderful ways
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that we can communicate now
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that we didn't have before.
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So everything is an opportunity.
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You tell-- you tell this--
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this wonderful story in The Choice
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about the moment you all are in the cattle cars
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and you are approaching Auschwitz,
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and it's one of the final times you saw your mother
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before she was taken to the gas chambers,
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and she turned to you and she said--
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can you tell us that story?
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Yes, she hugged me,
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and I'm picturing her now as I'm crying,
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to tell you that everything happened
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just the way she said to me, and I quote,
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"Honey, we don't know where we're going.
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"We don't know what's going to happen.
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"Just remember.
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No one can take away from you what you put in your own mind."
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And this is exactly what happened.
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Everything was taken away from us,
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and that's what's happening now.
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We cannot change what's outside of us,
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but we can certainly reach out
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and to be richer and to be able to--
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or closer,
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get to know one another and make peace,
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especially maybe a sister
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that you didn't talk to for years
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or your parents that you don't realize
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that half of you is your mother,
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half of you is your father,
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and it's--find the family within you.
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There is a little girl in you,
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a little boy in you that has dreams.
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But the family now finally can have
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more family dinners together
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and get to know one another,
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and give birth to that you,
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that genuine, beautiful you that you gave up early in life.
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So I think it's a wonderful time
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to take inventory of your life,
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to take stock of every part in you and really--
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It's like that beautiful Derek Walcott poem that says,
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"Pay attention to the you--
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to the you you ignored for so long."
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Yes.
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The you that you've ignored for another.
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Absolutely.
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The you you've ignored for another.
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Oh, honey, I'm so happy that I--I get to talk to you
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because I'm really, really wanting to be sure
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that people will have this "aha."
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This is not the best I can do,
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and I can be free at last.
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Well, one of the things that you say that I think is so crucial
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is that there really is no crisis,
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which is an extraordinary comment
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coming from somebody who's been through
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one of the world's greatest crises,
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the Holocaust.
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You say there is no such thing as a crisis.
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There's only transition.
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I love that so much I want to say it again.
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There is no such thing as crisis.
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There's only transition.
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Explain that for everyone.
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Well, especially in midlife,
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we talk about midlife crisis.
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There is no such thing.
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I just can't have any children,
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but who wants them anyway by then?
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And I think many of us now
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really facing a decision:
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what we're going to concentrate on.
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How are we going to see everything in life
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as an opportunity,
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as an opportunity to really discover
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the parts in us that was dormant?
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And now it's coming to the fore.
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[Oprah] Yes.
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You wrote in The Choice
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that the opposite of depression is expression,
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and we've seen so many people
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rising up, getting creative
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to lift each other during this time.
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People are finding new ways to connect with one another.
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How can self-expression be healing for us in this moment?
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Because what we do with anger, we either suppress it,
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vent it, and I like it to be dissolved.
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-Mm. -Dissolve the anger.
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Because that will never--
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the anger will never really give you that freedom.
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Because while you are angry,
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you're still a prisoner.
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I would still be a hostage of the Nazis
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if I would live in--
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in hate and anger.
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Yeah.
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So it's really self-love, which is self-care.
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As you know, I say it's not narcissistic.
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And it's very, very important this time
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to give birth to the you
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that was really, really given to us
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by the wonderful God that put us here to have joy,
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to have passion for life.
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I find it so interesting that you wrote a book
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so many years ago based on your Holocaust experience
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called The Choice,
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because you wanted everybody to know
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the choice that you had to make
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to no longer be a victim.
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And now we are all faced
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throughout the world with this choice
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to not to be victimized by this virus,
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but to use this moment for what it has to teach us.
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And what do you think this moment has to teach us?
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I think if we all just look at the virus and focus on the virus
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and the virus, and we're locked down
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and we can't do the things that we want,
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we're gonna miss this moment.
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I think it's a pivotal moment for our humanity.
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Yes, to live in the moment, and right now,
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you can write down all your favorite poems
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and the people who wrote the poems,
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your favorite music,
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things that you never had time for before.
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My second book is called The Gift.
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And having--
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people were asking me to write another book
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to have more how-tos, something more practical.
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-Mm-hmm. -If then, if then.
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That the more choices you have,
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the less you're going to feel like a victim.
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And this is a good opportunity for everyone
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to give themselves a gift...
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-[Oprah] Yeah. -Of time out.
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I ask these questions because I firmly believe
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that there is a lesson in all experiences,
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and that this is a moment
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that we can all raise our consciousness.
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I say that also being very much aware,
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but when you are trying to take care of your kids at home
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and homeschooling and now bombarded
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with all of the reckonings
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that have come to be because we are in this moment--
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not having enough, you know, food
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and not knowing if your job is going to be waiting for you
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when this is all over--
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it's hard to think about consciousness
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when you have, you know, basic life struggles.
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Absolutely, and that's why
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the family becomes closer together,
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because they come up with rules
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that somebody can make a dinner once a week
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that you can really stretch.
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Stretch all your comfort zone,
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and the family can really, truly cooperate
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and not compete or dominate.
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Mm.
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So it's a time to rethink
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that whole family process...
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And re-decide.
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There's a time to reorganize, rethink.
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I think what you said earlier-- it's a reset.
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-It's a reset. -Yes.
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-It's a reset. -Yes, very important.
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-I couldn't say it better. -[Oprah] [laughs]
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I couldn't say it better.
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You're the one everyone is looking for,
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and I hope that you will be able
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to be as healthy and beautiful and spiritually...
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-[Oprah] Well, thank you. -Inspiring.
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I hope you do the same and you stay well.
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-We need you. -[Dr. Eger] Oh.
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Thank you.
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Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Eger.
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-Thank you so much. -Why, thank you so much.
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Beautiful. Beautiful seeing you.
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Thank you for having me.
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[Oprah] [laughs] Good.
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-I love you. -[Oprah] Love you.
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