Original subtitles

You wanted me to do more around the house,

and I said to you,

"So, basically, you want a slave."

And you got very upset that I said that.

And what-- what does that mean to you?

What she describes as love, for the most part,

is when people do things for her.

So it feels like...

I'm getting love in exchange for physical labor.

If I do say something, I'm a bitch.

If I don't say something, I'm digging myself in a ditch.

I don't know where to go from there.

So I'd rather dig myself in the hole.

-Where is that coming from? -What?

That "I'm a bitch" part -- where is that coming from?

Because I don't-- I don't say that to you.

No, you don't.

This-- pause.

You have slavery,

you have "I'm a bitch."

-[laughs] -[laughing] Right.

[Orna] Each person is entitled to their own--

Right, no, but I-- I could-- but the way--

No, seriously!

Race, gender -- it's all between you.

-Yeah. -[laughs]

♪curious mellow music♪

[Orna VO] The idea that we are motivated by unconscious forces

is, like, a huge change in how we think.

Before Freud and his colleagues developed their theory,

that was not the way we thought of the mind and of the world.

♪♪♪

A traditional psychoanalyst would say,

"If you go deep, deep, deep, deep,

deep into the unconscious, you'll find the drives --

sexual drives, aggressive drives, competitive drives,

death drive...

That's the bedrock of the psyche."

People like myself think that if you go really, really deep --

if you dive into the unconscious --

I think you'll find the collective --

the social structure of the group to which you've belonged.

♪♪♪

And that group could be an extended family,

it can be a tribe,

it can be a religious group,

it could be a nation...

♪♪♪

Being part of a group and part of a collective is

deeply embedded in us.

[chanting]

♪♪♪

Deep in the unconscious, you're gonna find

the matrix of everything.

♪♪♪

Hi!

[Joey, laughing] Oh my God!

We just got back from Vegas.

[Orna] Right.

I was anticipating it to be just as amazing as our trip to

Tennessee, but we were so tired.

And then we kind of got into, like, a mini argument.

He kept saying he wanted to watch a video that I took of him

-from earlier in the day... -Busting my ass.

Yeah, it was just a funny video...

Mm-hm.

[Joey] But he wanted to watch it at that particular time.

And I was like, "Can we watch it later?

Like, we're having dinner in this nice, like,

romantic environment, and it's--

like, I feel very uncomfortable."

I still tried to bring up the point that it was something I

-wanted to do. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

Right?

I thought it'd be funny; it would lighten the mood.

And I told her, like,

"Even if it's the wrong thing to do,

we still never try doing it my way...

to at least have me fail."

[sighs]

I think I just had, like, a little bit of a...

[laughs] epiphany.

[Orna] Mm!

Because my biggest issue with my mom was I wanted to make my own

mistakes, and I wanted to just to it my way,

even if it's the more dangerous way --

or whatever the alternative is -- and...

it's like I'm almost repeating

whatever she has instilled in me...

[Orna] Right.

That I really hated about our relationship.

[sucks teeth]

That's important.

Mm.

[Orna VO] She was like, "Oh my God!

I just...

had an epiphany!"

That's what her mother would do to her --

like, fight her on every opinion that was different from

-the mother's. -[Mary] Mm-hm.

What purpose might it serve to replicate it -- the dynamic?

This idea of Freud's that, when you give up a loved one --

as she has done with her mother...

[Orna] Mm-hm.

There's a move to internalize that person and live them from

the inside...

Mm!

So that she's given up her mother,

she's becoming like her mother as a way of keeping her mother.

Where is her mother in this still now?

They're still not talking, yeah, yeah.

'Til they figure out their own boundaries and their marriage,

I think it's...wise.

♪tender curious music♪

[whispering] Oh...

[chuckling] What are you doing?

Wait, wait, you messed it up.

[Rex] You messed it up.

-Blessed. -[chuckles]

Hello!

-Hello. -Hi!

[chuckling] We were in a really bad place in November.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

Like, I-- I really felt hopeless,

and I knew, like, somewhere down the line,

if we didn't address it, that it could lead to divorce or

something, you know, more serious.

I didn't think that --

that anything would lead to divorce...

except your mother.

Right, except your mother.

-That's not a small factor. -[Joey] Mm-hm.

I constantly feel like --

from watching, like, movies and stuff --

like...

the guy...

would make everything better.

The guy would find a way to...

bring the mom back and fix everything.

Oh, wow!

[laughs] That sounds like a big burden.

[chuckles]

-There's the bear... -[Joey, laughing] Right.

-[chuckles] And then Mom. -[Joey, laughing] Right.

Like, going there, showing up...

Mom's like, "What the heck?"

Like...

And then just try and try for months.

Just keep showing up.

[laughing] Maybe pissing her off even more.

[chuckling] Don't-- you may get the police

[laughing] called on you.

Yeah, whatever needs to be done, and...

and then it will eventually, uh-- she'll come around.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

Fictional.

[Orna] Heroic!

-Fictional. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

[Joey] I have never, like, seen him talk so much and...

-[Rex chuckles] -And be-- well, yeah!

I mean, that's, like, huge progress to just hear him talk

about his feelings and--

But you too!

You're full of ideas and thoughts and questions and...

Yeah, I guess so.

I mean, to me, hitting the one-year milestone was a huge

step for us, and just making it to a year and still feeling like

this was the best decision I've made...

without regrets.

♪hopeful delicate piano♪

[Law groans and babbles]

-[Elíana] I know. -[whimpering]

[Elíana] Daddy, can you eat that for him?

Gracias.

♪♪♪

On Saturday, when you came home from work,

it felt like all you wanted to do was fight with me.

Mm-hm.

My ex-husband used to do this to go out and go, like,

deal with other women, so I get--

-like, I spiral... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

Very easily.

[Orna] Into?

Like, that he'll leave.

-He'll leave. -[Elíana] Yeah.

Abandonment fears.

-Yeah, I guess, in a way. -[Orna] Yeah.

After our arguments, it never occurs to me--

when I say "never," I mean never;

like, it would have to be, like, a catastrophic event.

I haven't thought about leaving since I moved out.

Really?!

I haven't-- I haven't-- it doesn't cross my mind,

so I don't want you to think that I'm thinking about leaving

you, or even when you get the urge and you're feeling those

abandonment issues

-kicking in... -Mm-hm.

Like, remember that; I'm not thinking that way.

I'm probably just, at worst, thinking space.

Okay.

And not like space as in, like, I-leave-the-house space...

-[laughs] -But space as in, like,

I'm-gonna-be-in-the-room...

watching-TV-on-my-phone space.

-[Elíana] Okay. -You know what I mean?

-[Elíana] Yeah, yeah, yeah. -Like, that-- that's it for me.

Are you hearing that?

[Elíana] Yeah!

That should address your abandonment anxieties.

[Elíana] Yeah!

[laughs] Thank you.

Orna, I just put on a masterclass of empathy...

-[laughs] -And I got a thumbs-up.

He said, "And that concludes my TED Talk."

-[laughs] -Nico, you see what I be doin'?

This is crazy.

-I think, um... -[Orna laughs]

A lot of times, in those situations,

two things happen to me, where I go into, like,

super people-pleasing mode,

where I just want things to just, like,

-not feel that way... -Mm-hm.

And then the other, where I'm just like,

"I'm burning this bitch to the goddamn ground!"

I fear kind of, like, what that looks like as we get older and

maybe have more kids.

I don't want that to be, like, a constant...

"Mom's either gonna burn down the whole house and everyone

gets to evacuate" or, like,

I'm going into super-duper people-pleasing,

-cleaning-everything mode. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

Like, when you came home on Sunday...

what did that house look like?

[softly] It was really clean.

-Yeah. -[softly] Yeah.

'Cause I was like, "At the very least, like,

the clean space needs to happen."

I think that would be a good thing for us to

-think about together. -[Elíana] What?

What the cleaning means to you.

Fuck!

No cursing!

-Bitches! -No cursing!

[both laugh]

Ugh, [speaking Spanish].

Oh my God!

Orna, why do you do this to me, girl?!

Gimme that shit.

-[both laugh] -No cursing.

[Elíana, laughing] Stop!

Yeah, cleaning means a lot.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

My dad's like that, that's why.

Like, when we would fight really bad as kids...

the house was imma-- like... [chuckles]

We would be fighting and he's like...

"Cleaning the car!"

[laughing] Like...

"Anna, did you see?

I did the whole closet over again!" [laughs]

[laughing] Like...

But it's 'cause he-- or, like, when him and my mom fight,

rather; when it gets really-- like, when they've argued,

that's what he does.

[Orna] It's sort of a way to, I guess...

reassure that there's some peace?

I think it's a way where I'm useful.

And I joke, but I fuckin' mean it when I say, like,

"You're gonna go from me to who?"

-[Mitch laughs] -[Orna] Mm-hm.

[laughing] Somebody who doesn't threaten to burn the house down.

[Elíana laughs]

But, like, good luck trying to replace me.

[Mitch laughs]

I need to feel useful...

-if I'm to be kept. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

It's a very weird fuckin' thing.

Goddamn it!

You know what?

That is very parallel to what Mitchell says that you do

with him.

You know, you say that...

Elíana sometimes talks to you as if your usefulness is what

keeps you.

And Elíana is saying she feels the same way about herself.

Mm-hm.

It sort of, like, helps me understand that, like,

it's not slavery to you.

It's just...

or what I interpreted as you thinking or trying to

-slave me out in the house... -That's crazy. [chuckles]

Isn't that, but, like, it actually stems from something

that's real.

"Slave me out" is crazy, though, by the way.

-[laughing] I know, but-- -"Slave me out" comes out

-real crazy. -But that's...

-[Orna] Yeah. -That's-- that's--

-Yeah. -That's what I felt in the

-moment. -[Orna] Yeah.

But now, getting clarity on, like,

where it stems from, it makes a lot of sense.

That's fair; I appreciate you, like,

-realizing that. -Yeah!

I want a-- our handshake; I don't want no regular handshake.

-I know. -[chuckles]

♪tender folk music♪

[Orna VO] Elíana and Mitchell have changed so much.

They came in deeply mistrustful, not living together,

kind of on the verge of breaking up.

Mitchell was really willing to take on new responsibilities,

learn how to parent...

And Elíana was willing to kind of make some differentiation

between, like, what was her own stuff and what was really needed

between them.

[speaking Spanish]

[Elíana and Mitchell groan]

♪♪♪

[Lorena VO] There is this fear of the floor dropping out

from me.

Aryn could be like, "I don't want you to date Lorena" or

"I want us to close our relationship"...

Not that you've been like "There's a veto over your head!"

That's not what I'm saying at all.

But that-- that is the floor dropping.

[Lorena] Yeah.

It's, like, something completely out of my control.

That one of these two decides "We're...

we're now gonna be exclusive and..."

-Mm-hm. -[Orna] "You're out."

Any thoughts?

I will never...

veto you.

[sucks teeth] I...

-appreciate that. [chuckles] -Yeah.

Do you wanna say more about that?

[Aryn] Yeah!

Like, I've been in dynamics where I've accepted being a

third person to someone else's dynamic with the understanding

that they have a veto over, like, my presence in their life,

but me and Josh don't have vetoes with you,

and I don't believe we would have vetoes in the future...

especially not, like, an existing relationship.

I can't imagine a scenario where that would ever be a thing.

-I appreciate hearing that. -[Aryn] Yeah.

I have a question: for, like,

playing out a more reasonable scenario that actually might

-happen... -Mm-hm.

What happens if Josh and I decide to move?

[Lorena] Your future has just always been...

part of this...

dynamic.

You guys moving has been on the table from the beginning.

It would feel crazy for me to have, like,

a "veto" on that, and be like,

"Nope, you guys can't move to San Francisco."

That feels crazy to me.

That makes me feel really, like, safe and held...

that you understand that.

-Oh, yeah! -Yeah.

I'm super grateful for you, 'cause I can imagine it would be

very...

destabilizing of having a six-year relationship,

and then, like, really pursuing your career...

while Josh and I, like, develop a relationship of significance.

Like, that seems like that would be really challenging in

-different ways. -It's been hard.

-Yeah. [laughs] -Yeah.

-[Lorena, laughing] Yeah. -Yeah.

Um...

and so I've always tried to keep that...

-Yeah. -Very much in mind.

[softly] Yeah.

♪tender piano music♪

[Orna VO] To see them...

refuse the immediacy of "Well, I get to decide;

-I'm the most important"... -[Virginia VO] Yeah.

[Orna VO] But, rather, say "I want this,

but, of course, I'm gonna take your needs into consideration

too, and, therefore, we don't know exactly how this is gonna

unfold," it's really interesting.

And even they, themselves, are going from

"primary" to "anchor."

From hierarchical to non-hierarchical.

You know, they're constantly looking for a new category,

because it's being invented.

As Josh was saying, "You have to read all the time,

-and we are!" -[Orna] Yeah.

I can see that they're paying a price for that, too.

But...

that's their choice and I-- I appreciate it.

Yeah, I'm coming around, totally, yeah.

[Orna] Yeah.

You know, I've been interested in this whole way of doing

relationships.

I kind of support the...

-sentiment. -Mm-hm.

[Orna] But I also think it's hard.

I mean, there's a lot of ideology that sometimes,

I think, masks other kinds of feelings.

It can muddy things...

-Mm-hm. -[Josh] Totally.

[Orna] When you say one thing but mean something else.

-Mm-hm. -[Orna] Um...

I think the ideology of, say, non-hierarchical relationships

can be, like, said is that's what we're doing,

but yet, I also...

have a need to still feel...

special and, like, I-- I totally see that as a conflict.

[Orna] Yeah.

But those kinds of conflicts will keep happening.

-[Aryn] Mm-hm. -[Josh] Totally.

Yeah.

[Lorena] I think one of my things is...

I've really struggled with what you guys have said versus what

has been done,

but I was looking to you two to tell me what I should expect

about our relationship.

So it's like I'm seeing the ways that I have, like,

played into this, and doing anything that's

non-normative and against the culture is really hard.

Mm-hm.

I feel like it just stays messy.

Totally.

♪uplifting folk music♪

How are you two?

Well, I feel great.

[chuckles]

No, we're good, yeah.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

[Casimar] He was gone for a week and he came back yesterday.

-But-- - I missed him, for sure.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

He did; he was, like, all lovey-dovey in text messages...

[chuckles]

He was saying all of this nice stuff to me that he don't be

saying in person...

-Oh!... -[Casimar] Mm-hm.

-[Alexes] I said one thing! -Like what?

[Casimar] What'd you say?

When I was going to sleep -- which was late -- I messaged him

that I'm, like-- "You know, I really want...

to be the best version of myself,

and I want us to be the best versions of ourselves because...

you know, I wanna marry you, and I wanna have a kid with you,

and so I'm gonna...

work towards that."

Mm!

He ain't never tell me that in person!

[Alexes chuckles]

I just said in person, technically.

But it's to Orna!

[all laugh]

But it was nice; I woke up at, like,

seven o'clock in the morning and I was like...

[laughs]

-But, um... -[Orna] That's very sweet.

[Casimar] Yeah!

I don't know, I just was, like, [chuckling] super emotional...

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And my introspection when I was there was...

like, you have said, like, that you've felt I'm ready for...

-like, pressure? -Mm-hm.

-Or a challenge? -[Orna] Yes.

Or something?

[Orna] I have said that,

-several times. -Yeah.

And I've listened! [chuckles]

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -[chuckling] Oh, shit!

[chuckles]

Like, it feels like...

faith and...

uh, love, if I can say that?

-Mm-hm. -[Alexes] Like...

I'm like, "Okay, I'm ready!

Like, I wanna be ready," you know?

Like...

I'm, like, uncomfortable, and I'm like,

"Okay, maybe this is a good pressure," you know?

Yes, exactly!

[Alexes] Like, it feels great, and then it feels, like...

not great, you know? Like--

[Orna] "Not great" like you're afraid?

Yeah, like I'm afraid, yeah.

I communicate none of this to him. [chuckles]

And then, I come back,

and he's telling me about this one chapter that he wrote

in the book, and it was so similar.

You know? It was so...

[sucks teeth]

kind, I guess?

What was in it?

This power dynamic thing that we've been discussing.

Um, for me, it shows up in this negative way of him being

controlling.

And then I thought, "Well, he wants control because when he's

in control, he feels, uh, safe.

And him needing to create this safety comes from this drive --

like 'I have to make something to make this life worth

living.'"

And then, I thought about how he feels about me sometimes,

and that maybe I'm too complacent.

And that I lack the sense of urgency.

Then, I thought, "Well, that's really just me being at peace."

You know, the real gift should be that I can...

show him how to see peace,

and he can remind me...

[chuckles]

[chuckling, softly] Sorry.

[voice wavering] That he can remind me that I don't need to

feel shame...

[stifling crying]

I don't need to feel shame in wanting more.

I'm, like, determined, and that's the whole purpose,

really, like, of the book.

This is a guide to how to survive a survivor because

you're gonna love them anyway.

-What's your reaction? -[Alexes sucks teeth]

[chuckles]

I don't know, it's just my brain.

-Like, it's-- -[Orna] What's it doing?

It literally [chuckling] is just telling me, like,

"Well, xyz is also true," you know?

[Orna] What do you mean?

Like... [sucks teeth]

Like an expression of some kind of mistrust?

[chuckling] Yeah.

Uh-huh.

[Alexes] Why are you looking at me like that?!

[wordlessly] I don't know...

I'm assuming that you're looking at him because you were offering

him a nice gesture, and, as you're saying,

your mind had to, like...

do something to it so it doesn't feel that good.

Yeah!

[Orna] You argued with the gift.

-Yeah. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

-[laughing] I know I do that. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

You can just take the gift.

It'll feel good.

[inhales sharply]

No, I know!

But it's-- you know, it's a process.

[Orna] Mm-hm, yeah.

-But [laughing] just do it. -[Casimar] Yeah.

[Alexes, chuckling] Yeah.

[chuckles]

[sighs deeply]

♪upbeat mellow music♪

[Orna VO] They've come such a long way that I'm like,

"They have tools to keep the work going."

But with this kind of trauma, it's not like you can have magic

treatments and, bam, you're all better.

What they really need is long-term support.

♪♪♪

[Virginia] Even though they both acknowledged that they've made a

-lot of progress... -Mm-hm.

They're really worried that without you and this practice,

they're just gonna fall back to these very-available habits.

All of them are worried about this.

[Virginia] Yeah!

[Orna VO] I'm just trying to arm them, again, with, like,

"Have a coin in your pocket; this is one thing--"

[Virginia VO] Yeah, well, this is the other version:

"What would Orna...

say now?

What's the question Orna would be asking now?"

[Orna] Yeah. That's good.

[Virginia] I'm just thinking of all these ways to-- that they

-can keep you with them... -[Orna] Yeah.

-In the analytic... -[Orna] Right.

-Practice. -Right.

There's several times that I start thinking in my Orna-isms.

"Orna said, 'Retaliation isn't wise,'

and this is a form of retaliation.

I'm trying the-- the Orna technique of just listening...

for deeper...knowing.

We talk about this, and then I go back home and I think about

it throughout the week, so it's, like-- it stays retained 'cause

I'm trying to apply it.

-[Virginia VO] You're in there. -Yeah.

[Virginia] You are already in there.

"What would Orna say?"

We just make that more explicit.

What would I ask?

Yeah, "What would Orna have me ask myself?"

[Orna] Yeah.

What do you want?

How do you imagine it?

What do you think you need?

What are you hearing?

How can we more clearly hear one another...

-[Orna] Yeah. -When we are feeling...

not heard?

You've given us, also, a lot of great tools.

We take those tools and we continue to apply it

in our lives.

When numerous situations occur in the future,

we use those same tactics that we learned here and

apply them there.

[whispering] I can't cry! [chuckles]

I'll have to try to find a way to make you cry.

Oh, thank you so much!

Yeah, I'll leave dishes in the sink for you;

-that'll make you cry. [laughs] -[Elíana] Oh my God!

That's not gonna cause me to cry,

that's gonna cause me to burn some shit down.

[both laugh]

-Am I allowed to hug you? -[Orna] Yes, of course!

[Elíana] Okay.

Thank you.

Do not make me cry, damn it!

[Elíana and Mitch laugh]

[Mitch] Orna, thank you so much.

Take your water so they don't have to clean it.

Thank you.

♪♪♪

[Joey] Thank you.

[Rex] Thank you.

[Orna] Be good.

Lorena hand-baked dog treats for Nico.

[gasps]

[laughs] It's true.

[Orna] Let's have her do a trick.

-Paw. -[Lorena, laughing] Oh!

[Orna] Very good.

Now, say "I love you!"

-[Nico grumbles] -[Orna] Good girl.

Good girl!

[Joey] Close the door.

Close the door!

♪♪♪

[kiss]

[kiss]

[kiss]

[Lorena] Eeeew!

-I'm just kidding. -[Aryn laughs]

♪♪♪

[sounds of office being reset]