Original subtitles

Étienne, get up, the tram's coming!

Étienne.

Come on.

Étienne...

- Leave me alone! - If we miss this tram...

Back off!

- Come on, Étienne. - I don't wanna!

You are coming with me. Come on!

- I swear if we miss this tram... - I don't wanna!

Étienne, get up!

Let go of me!

Lila, go in.

No!

Mom!

Let go of me!

Now, you listen to me. Get in that tram.

Shit!

Étienne, come with me, you're unbearable.

Move it.

Are your pockets empty?

- Belt? - No.

Just a second.

Go through.

Yes, put that in there.

Anything in your pockets?

You can go through. Hold on.

Keys, phone? Anything metallic.

- No, everything's there. - Go ahead.

I'm just going to check if I've got my ID on me.

Please take your jacket off.

Yes.

- He's your brother? - Yeah.

Stand back, please.

- Here? - Yes.

- Don't touch him! - Let's calm down.

One moment, please.

I said stop touching him!

Mom!

- Stop! Don't touch my son. - We're not.

- Calm down. - Don't touch him.

The machine went off, we're just checking.

Could you empty your pockets?

Your son has a knife in his pocket.

Where did that come from?

Étienne? Look at me.

You want us to get locked up?

No one's gonna lock us up, Mom. He just got scared.

- It's OK, I'll set it aside. - That's right, asshole.

- Tell your daughter to keep it civil. - Yes, OK.

This comes after Mr. Goossens initiated CPS proceedings

and since no voluntary support was set up,

they're bringing it to court.

Now it is up to the judge to take measures regarding the children.

- Can she take them from me? - No, she won't do that.

But she can now make a ruling based on the children's best interests.

Her goal is to protect them.

She knows about the criminal trial?

She's aware a complaint was made as it's in the CPS report.

But she doesn't have all the details. They don't communicate much.

Yeah, we got that.

The most important thing is to come off confident.

Be convincing in everything you say.

If you're ever at a loss, I'll step in and round things off.

But it's going to be OK.

Stay calm, think about what you'll say...

Dad won't sit here, will he?

No, sweetheart, we've requested that he sit in another room.

That's what I requested, in any case.

Why are they making them go through this?

- What's the children's lawyer doing? - Who gives a crap? He's useless.

Mom!

Stay with her. Étienne!

Étienne, we need to go.

You said we wouldn't see him and we did.

I know.

You're a liar.

I'm not responsible for the fact that...

Come, sweetie, we'll miss...

- Étienne, we'll miss our turn. - I don't care.

You made me write a letter and for what?

I didn't make you write the letter.

The judge said to write one if you didn't want to see him.

That's what we did.

Come on, we have to go.

- Let go. - Étienne, please.

Get your things, we're leaving.

You're leaving?

Ms. Piron.

Alice... What's going on?

It's been three years of this, tons of hearings.

They were told they wouldn't see him, and he's here!

That's no reason to leave. Don't leave.

If you do, it'll go against you.

And he'll have won.

- They don't want to talk. - I'll do it.

You will?

- Did he talk to you? - No, I ignored him.

And that giraffe face with her old, pink scrunchie. I'm quaking.

- Did you sleep well? - Of course not.

Don't worry. The judge is used to this.

The Goossens children?

Are you ready? Let's go.

Give me a minute. I'm just going to talk to Counsel Roland.

- Ms. Roland? - Yes.

You wanted to add a document?

Yes, Étienne's attendance record. I was sent it yesterday.

OK. May I see it?

The absences have been excused. The judge will use her discretion.

It's nothing, just an attendance record.

Where are they?

They were moved to another room. It's procedure.

Procedure? I wasn't told.

- It was the judge. - Where are they?

In another room.

Ms. Piron?

Where are my children?

- Could I have your name? - Yes.

It's Alice Piron for Étienne...

- and Lila Goossens. - OK.

Their session ended.

Lila! Étienne!

- Calm down, this is normal. - I want to see my kids.

Everything's fine.

I want to see my kids.

Lila!

Étienne!

What's going on here? You're at a courthouse, ma'am.

No one's telling me where my kids are!

Your children are in a waiting room a little further down.

I'm the one who asked them to move there, OK?

Let's remain calm, please.

Come.

Everything's OK. Don't panic.

Please be seated.

Right.

I'll start with a brief summary of what the children said.

I'll then listen to Counsel Roland's motions...

followed by Ms. Piron's lawyer, Counsel Alaoui,

before letting Counsel Comuzzo have the floor

who represents the children's interests.

Ms. Piron, Mr. Goossens, I would ask you not to intervene

until you are given the floor in the second part of the hearing.

You will have the time to express yourselves as you wish.

Ms. Roland, could you explain

why this case came to the youth protection court?

I can see that, over four years ago,

a decision was made in the family court regarding living arrangements.

The father has since lodged a complaint for violation of custody rights.

Could you elaborate?

As I see it, the CPS report is incomprehensible.

Thank you, Your Honor.

The reason for our being here

is that we believe the children are in danger.

Their father has noticed that they're not doing well,

that they're isolated and have been missing school recently.

And, please excuse the informality,

but Ms. Piron has decided to pile it on

by making some very serious accusations against Mr. Goossens.

He has formally contested them,

but this is not the topic at hand today.

Consequently, as you're acutely aware,

the criminal proceedings block any possibility of moving forward

with the family court.

This means that the only option we're left with is to come before you

to ask that Mr. Goossens' rights be reinstated

and that his relationship with his children be restored.

I would also like to draw your attention

to the fact that I think we have all noticed

that Ms. Piron is prone to outbursts.

Just now, in the waiting area.

And I must say I was very shocked

by the fact that the children couldn't even say hi to their father.

We have reached a point of no return which you must absolutely put an end to

because the relationship is being blocked for Mr. Goossens.

That is why we've come to you, Your Honor.

OK, Ms. Roland. Thank you for clarifying.

Right, I heard what the children had to say,

Lila and Étienne,

and they very clearly expressed their wish

to no longer see their father.

I also received their letter.

Lila confirms that she hasn't seen her father since January 2022

and has no desire or need to reestablish contact with him.

She pinpoints the rupture in her relationship with her father at 13.

She says that she has always felt

like he used her to show off in front of his new partner.

She even told me that he's dead to her.

Étienne was just as clear about not wanting to see his father.

He says he doesn't miss him

and that he wants to forget certain images in his head.

So, to be clear, the issue I have is

that when I asked Étienne to describe those images,

he was very evasive.

In any case, given your son's earlier statements,

I won't be able to make a ruling, that's what the criminal court is for.

My role today as a judge

is to determine whether the children

need social, educational or psychological support or not.

With this in mind, Ms. Roland, the floor is yours.

What would you recommend?

As you mentioned, Your Honor,

it has been over two years since the children saw their father.

We are in a situation that is being spearheaded by Ms. Piron herself.

A situation that fuels the children to completely break ties

and have zero contact with their dad.

You saw how my client was affected

by your account of your interview with the children.

For a dad to hear that he's dead to his daughter

is extremely shocking and harsh, I think.

This reflects just how serious the situation is today.

Mr. Goossens is really suffering from being stripped of his rights

and being completely deprived of any rights in his children's lives.

But he is also really worried, which is why we're here.

He's tried communicating with Lila, but to no avail.

He gets no response, ties have been completely severed.

Communication stopped overnight

for no reason.

Up to that point, Mr. Goossens had a good relationship with his children.

Even after the custody arrangements.

Then everything stopped overnight.

He is aware that Étienne sees a psychologist and doctors,

but only because he receives mail from his insurance.

So, he is never informed about anything, he is never consulted.

He found out about Étienne's unexcused absence because the school told him.

Speaking of which, Your Honor, I wanted to submit a document

which is a record of his unauthorized absences.

I brought it to my colleague's attention before this hearing.

Thank you. Continue.

I think it is quite important to take this element into account.

So, he was informed solely by the school, not the mother.

He's also very worried about Lila.

She's always had excellent grades

and he doesn't understand why they've gone down.

So, the question we are asking,

and I believe that this should factor in your deliberation,

is that Ms. Piron clearly wishes to keep the children cocooned.

In other words, to cut them off from the world.

There is another very questionable factor:

Étienne's incontinence.

Until now, Étienne has never expressed any physical discomfort

or any issues in that area.

Now, once again, overnight,

he's being treated for incontinence.

One might almost wonder

whether their mother takes pleasure in changing her 10-year-old's diaper.

That is a legitimate question.

Excuse me. A little respect, please.

- Counsel... - There are boundaries.

- Excuse me, Counsel. - May I continue? Thank you.

So, we have noticed this cocooned upbringing,

and a distancing from her in-laws too.

Mr. Goossens' family has no place in the kids' lives

unlike their mother's family which is involved.

So, there is a gross imbalance

even though Mr. Goossens has always been a good father.

He has good practices,

he is committed to giving his children a good education.

He actually runs a community recreation center,

so, he's highly skilled in the field of education

and knows full well what's good for his children.

If I may continue on the topic of their respective jobs,

I would also like you to think about

the professional setting in which Ms. Piron operates.

This is a woman who works in a family planning clinic.

A woman who is quite accustomed

to instances of sexual abuse.

She has always talked about this topic

on the phone or during private meetings,

presumably in front of her children.

So, rightfully so, he wonders

whether she has developed a fascination or obsession over this

- which might fuel... - Ms. Roland?

I must say that it strikes me that you think

that a woman dedicated to her job which involves sexual violence

could be fascinated by it...

So, am I fascinated by the acts of violence

I hear in this court every day?

You Honor, that's not what I meant...

I simply think that this could fuel the accusations

that Ms. Piron has made against this man.

Anyway...

This is someone who also sees a psychiatrist.

She also has a kidney condition

which means that she's hospitalized on a regular basis.

So, inevitably, she's not there to look after her children

when she's in hospital.

She's going through a difficult period, health-wise,

and we absolutely respect that,

but the children shouldn't be left to their own devices.

The children should be taken care of

and that's where Mr. Goossens could come in.

He could offer the children security and support.

When their mother is unavailable,

the children could be safe and sound at their dad's.

Yes, they'll be safe and sound at their rapist dad's. Obviously.

Ms. Piron, you are in court.

- Continue. - Yes, just a few words, Your Honor,

about the infamous criminal proceedings that everyone's talking about.

It is of utmost importance to stress that, until now,

Ms. Piron is the only one to have brought up instances of incest.

It's crucial to go back to one of the core tenets of these proceedings:

Mr. Goossens' presumption of innocence.

For now, there is no proof of this.

So, I would ask, Your Honor,

to not let your judgement be clouded by these criminal proceedings.

You're not a criminal judge, you're a youth protection judge...

I'm fully aware of my role, Counsel. Thank you.

I would just like to stress this point as I think it's important.

- Could you now state your motion? - Yes.

I'll move on to what we're requesting today,

on behalf of Mr. Goossens.

With regards to Étienne,

given the point of no return we have reached

and the gravity of the current situation,

we feel it would be appropriate if you placed him in a neutral setting.

In an institution, he will be able to be supported by a psychosocial team

who will be able to monitor him and his development,

and propose measures

to slowly and gradually reestablish contact with his dad.

That would be our recommendation regarding Étienne.

With regards to Lila, given her age,

it would be quite complicated to impose anything on her.

Mr. Goossens is now fostering this hope

that Lila can take a step back from what her mother tells her.

The decision that we hope you will make today

might allow this young girl to realize

that her father is a friend and not a foe.

With regards to Ms. Piron, I have expressed my concerns about her health,

both mental and physical.

In order for you to make a clear decision

and take all elements into account,

you should request a psychiatric evaluation.

Without it, I don't see us making progress.

On what legal grounds would you like me to request this?

I'll leave that to you, Your Honor.

Thank you, Counsel.

Ms. Alaoui, Ms. Piron's lawyer, you now have the floor.

Thank you, Your Honor.

A small preliminary remark,

I fail to understand, as does my client, these new proceedings

since we've already been through one in family court.

A few years ago, there was a ruling formalizing an agreement

which has not been adhered to for some time,

and for good reason.

Secondly, we're also in the middle of criminal proceedings.

As you know, sexual abuse was committed by Mr. Goossens against his son.

This was reported over two years ago.

This was clearly what caused the breakdown in communication.

The investigation is still ongoing.

He was questioned about it,

so he is obviously aware that it's ongoing.

He's acting as if it isn't.

And now, after two years of not having cared

about his children's wellbeing or their situation,

- he reappears. - There's no investigation.

- Not true. - It's not your turn to speak.

- No, but... - Yes, sir, there is an investigation.

- Continue. - So, there's an ongoing investigation

and we're waiting for a referral to criminal court.

Furthermore, Étienne's recorded version is in your case file.

So, I think it is quite something to pretend it doesn't exist

because this man has been questioned as part of this investigation.

With these proceedings, I would also like to draw your attention

to how taxing they are for my client and her children.

That's quite normal.

I know that and I know...

That's the legal system.

Yes, I know. The case was brought to court.

Nevertheless, it's brutal, the kids are experiencing secondary victimization.

They are being summoned time and time again,

having to physically confront their father

and go through the incidents and their trauma yet again.

This is extremely hard for them and for my client.

Rest assured, she is not seriously ill.

Yes, at times, she has to take care of herself

and she does have a small health issue which I won't go into

since patient confidentiality is still a thing.

Of course.

The kids are not left to their own devices.

Luckily, they also obviously have a relationship

with my client's family, namely, her parents.

Thanks to that, they're also able to flourish.

I'll briefly go back to the family history.

My client was in a rollercoaster of a relationship with Mr. Goossens.

When she fell pregnant, he seemed thrilled to become a father,

but my client actually went through her pregnancy alone.

She went to countless appointments on public transport

with no support whatsoever.

Nothing changed once they were born.

She always had to take the lead while the father was negligent.

Both parties separated which was followed by proceedings in family court.

A second accommodation was arranged

so the children could spend some weekends with their dad.

At first, everything seemed to be fine,

however, the situation soon soured.

And yet my client tried to calm the situation

by allowing and even insisting that her children go to their father's.

That is, of course, until how Étienne was being treated came to light,

which no longer made it possible, as you can imagine.

I'll stress that the children are being asked to express themselves,

but when they do, as adults,

it's truly important that we hear them out and respect them.

And that is what my client did.

So, she soon realized

that the nightmare her son Étienne had revealed

was, in fact, true.

It corresponded with all the signs she could've known about at that time.

In other words, Étienne was seeing a psychologist at the time,

and the psychologist also said that she had suspected abuse

for the past few sessions.

This is also when his encopresis started.

Encopresis is an intestinal issue

which manifests as involuntary bowel movements.

I think you are well aware of what that might represent

for a young boy like Étienne.

First, in terms of his self-image, his social interactions

and the daily challenges that come with that.

I see that Mr. Goossens is still in denial about what happened,

and is well within his right,

but I'd like to point out that my client was not the one who reported him,

it was Étienne.

The children reported him.

Étienne hasn't changed his statement in over two years.

He says it's as if he's looking down on himself,

separated from his body,

and he sees himself being crushed by his father's body.

This disembodiment phenomenon is quite characteristic of trauma.

I won't ask for a criminal ruling,

but I do ask that you take the case into account

because the children's wellbeing and safety depend on it.

We can't take any risks.

I heard: "Everything was going well until now",

"Étienne wasn't incontinent until now."

But Mr. Goossens' "until now" ended two years ago.

Remember, ties were completely cut over two years ago.

He's clueless about his kid's situation now.

He's come here with a bunch of claims

and self-centered hypotheses that are so off base,

fabricating this idea that my client is influencing her children's reaction.

I can't believe my ears.

Is it really plausible

that someone could pretend to be incontinent?

It's time for a reality check.

So, back to my motion.

There is just one measure that would be helpful for the children,

that would ensure their safety, even if only on a psychological level.

As I said, there was a breakdown in communication,

they don't want to see Mr. Goossens.

Acknowledging this state of affairs

and enforcing a no-contact order with Mr. Goossens

would be the only thing to appease them.

That's what we're asking today.

- Thank you. - Thank you.

Right...

Mr. Comuzzo, what do you think about this?

Thank you, Your Honor.

We have heard a lot of interesting things

from the parents' lawyers.

We have seen that this is a highly emotional situation,

this was observed this morning.

But one piece of good news is that both you and I are driven

by one interest only, that of the children.

No other elements are being considered.

To this end, I met with them at length,

I spoke with both of them at length.

We were able to address several matters

and they told me about their numerous wishes.

I'm not sure that's exactly what we heard today.

One thing's for sure:

the children don't want to see their father again for the time being.

First, you have Lila,

a young 17-year-old teenager who appears to be really enraged.

She's enraged with the world, the legal system, politics, men,

which is a thing now.

She's in tune with the times and fighting those battles,

but she has this very strong inner rebellion and rage.

Then you have Étienne,

this young boy who may perhaps show signs of...

a loyalty conflict with his parents.

It's a struggle, particularly with his father.

But, importantly, and I have to say this representing their interests,

throughout our entire discussion, I never took charge or swayed them

because I wanted to hear what they had to say.

And, to that end, I never heard about any episodes, Your Honor.

I was never told about an episode

which is currently being investigated.

Étienne hasn't mentioned these problems to me. So...

It's kind of awkward to talk about.

Ms. Piron, if you'll allow me to continue,

- you'll have your turn to speak. - Yes.

As I was saying, Your Honor, these two children are rather distinct,

but they're bound by one thing: Trauma.

Trauma from their parents' split.

The issue is that these young people are still not fully aware

that they need both parents for their proper development.

And I must say, to put it bluntly,

I feel like the parents are screwing everything up right now.

Particularly because you have a father who has been absent,

who has never been willing to pay a single euro

to look after his children.

This absence is unacceptable.

And, sir, if you'll allow me to address you,

if my daughter, and the judge mentioned this earlier,

felt that I was dead to her,

I would try to sort things out.

I'd try to come up with solutions.

I might go and pick her up from school.

Sorry.

This man is reproaching this woman

for not letting their children see him,

but did this man ever attempt to exert his right?

I'm not so sure.

This man lost interest in his children for a long period of time

and I'm questioning this delayed awakening.

Is there an ulterior motive for it? I don't know.

I question this man's true motives to bring these proceedings before you

as a way of resuming contact with his children.

I think there's reason to take a closer look at his actual motives.

So, as I said earlier, this is obviously both parents' responsibility.

Ma'am, you too, when facing certain difficulties,

I think you might benefit from letting your guard down a little.

Don't you think you're putting a bit too much pressure on your kids?

I was observing you in the waiting room earlier and I...

I wondered whether your children were slightly scared of you.

I understand all the issues you're dealing with,

but I think you're adding too much pressure

and this pressure spills over onto your children.

I think that Ms. Piron is dealing with a lot of challenges:

growing pressures, a difficult situation,

providing for two children by herself.

In this day and age, it's not feasible, Your Honor.

We must look into other solutions.

I think we should consider a meeting place

where the children can...

Don't touch me.

- What's wrong? - I did nothing.

- He touched my thigh. - No, I didn't.

I didn't do anything.

Could you swap places with your client?

But I didn't do anything.

Don't insist. Let's swap places.

Swap places, please.

Mr. Comuzzo, could you conclude, please?

Thank you, Your Honor.

I was talking about a meeting place with the father.

I really think it's essential

that we don't formalize this breakdown in contact.

Reestablishing contact will, I think, allow the children to develop.

This is why I think a meeting place would work,

especially because educational support

will allow Ms. Piron to be able

to have renewed confidence in her role as a mother.

Thank you, Your Honor.

Thank you, Counsel.

Mr. Goossens.

What would you like to say with regards to everything we've just heard?

I don't think I understand.

And I'm very worried about the children.

I don't understand what I'm being accused of.

I've always done everything to be a good father.

Today I...

I'm being accused of something I didn't do.

It doesn't feel like we're talking about me,

it feels like it's someone else.

You know I got on great with the kids...

Mr. Goossens? Speak to me, not Ms. Piron.

Mr. Comuzzo is right.

I should put something in place to reestablish contact regardless.

But I'm scared to.

With all this, I feel sullied, I feel insulted...

I don't understand why my children are scared of me.

I've never had an issue with my children.

Never.

OK, sir, but...

tell us what happened, then.

Why don't they want to see you anymore? That's what they told me.

- You tell me, ma'am. - Your Honor.

Your Honor.

Sorry, Your Honor. Apologies.

I was saying that

I'm asking myself the same question, Your Honor.

It needs explaining.

Everything was fine, with no issues for years,

then we split up.

I did everything in my power to make sure the break-up was amicable.

I was seeing my kids regularly

without any, I beg your pardon, poop issues

from my son, just to be clear.

There was no encopresis, I didn't even know the term for it.

Alice works in the medical sector.

She knows what she's talking about with everything she's claiming.

Anyway...

So, I'm seeing my kids,

that's going on without a glitch,

and then, one day... boom!

Just like that, they stop replying to me.

I text my daughter and nothing.

My son stops going to his swimming classes.

I find out through a letter that the kids are seeing doctors

since I'm the one who pays for the insurance.

The school tells me that my kids are no longer going to school,

not even Lila who's an excellent student.

Now she seems depressed, you know? Depressed.

And today,

I find out there's an ongoing investigation.

Why an investigation?

No one's reached out, I've done nothing.

No one's telling me what's going on

and I haven't seen my children for two years now.

Two years.

My son is ten years old, he's sad, he doesn't go to school.

And, yes, Alice and I are separated,

but I still worry about her.

I don't get what she's accusing me of.

Things have always been fine between us,

never any misconduct.

I don't know who filled her head with that.

I wonder whether...

I think that...

she just can't stand the fact that I've got a new life.

That I've moved on, unlike her.

Because I have a new baby.

Everything's going great.

So, I'm worried about her mental health...

as well as my kids'.

I love my children.

I never hurt them.

I didn't do anything.

I didn't. I don't want to pay for something I didn't do.

I didn't do anything.

I just want my kids back, I just want them to be OK.

Please, Your Honor.

Mr. Goossens, your arguments are noted.

Ms. Piron, the floor is yours.

For...

For the past 17 years, so, my daughter's age, I...

I've always looked after my children by myself.

When we met, I was very young.

I'd never been in a proper relationship.

And, uh...

I fell for him really quickly.

He came into my life...

My friends and family welcomed him right away.

He was funny, a good-looking guy,

I was proud to be with him.

I was still a student when I got pregnant with Lila.

At first, I felt supported, he was very present.

I remember

him coming to the first ultrasound.

Excuse me, Your Honor, is this not slightly off topic?

If you don't mind, let Ms. Piron speak, as we've done for each person.

Continue.

So, yes, I think the situation got worse during my pregnancy.

I remember once when he came home,

this must've happened once or twice,

I was sitting on the couch and...

like a lot of moms, I was talking to my baby in my stomach.

I remember saying to my baby: "Look, Daddy's here."

And I was surprised because he said:

"You don't give a damn about Dad, it's all about your belly now."

I felt...

very lonely.

He'd often tell me that he needed to see some friends

whom I didn't even know, whom I'd never actually met.

As I'm saying this,

I realize I barely knew anyone from his friend group.

Even his family, I barely saw them.

I dunno, maybe once, I...

No one was stopping you from taking an interest in them.

I also remember the time when...

we went to his parents' house for them to meet Lila

and I felt completely robbed of my daughter...

because he kept telling me...

He was so insistent that only his mom look after her.

He kept saying: "Look, she's doing such a good job.

It's better this way and that way."

It felt like even his mom felt awkward about it because...

Maybe she said that to him

because we didn't see each other again after that

and I thought that was weird.

So, yeah. And...

After that, he distanced me from his family.

I don't know why.

So, from that moment on, I started to feel really lonely.

I remember having to deal with everything day and night:

the house, grocery shopping, cleaning,

my daughter, resuming my studies...

He was there when people were around, but when it was just us, he was gone.

I still didn't know where he was sleeping.

Sometimes, for days on end.

Admittedly, I didn't ask questions.

I didn't even try to find out what he was up to.

Now I know.

He was already

in another relationship in Liège, near his parents' home.

And then when we split up,

we agreed that he'd be with his daughter every other weekend.

And I...

It felt like...

after we officially separated,

that, all of a sudden,

when we'd cross paths because of the children, he...

he was trying to seduce me.

I remember he'd compliment me.

It felt like he was trying to make up for things

so that Lila and I would love him again.

One thing led to another and we started spending more time together.

He was over at the house a lot.

And just like at the beginning, I thought he was sweet, thoughtful...

and we got back together. I then fell pregnant with my son and...

of course, shortly after, it was the same pattern all over again.

Could you bring the attention back to the children?

Yes.

So, he was happy to have a son.

Although it felt like he quickly lost interest in him.

I remember him saying that two kids was too much for him,

that it wasn't his plan and that I was the one who wanted it.

Afterwards...

as the kids were getting older,

I realized that their relationship with their father had become complex.

It had become much more contentious, starting with him and Lila.

She'd often tell me that he was very demanding of her,

that he asked her to do a lot.

I realized that she was so scared of disappointing her father, that...

Because, he said it himself, she's always been a great student,

had excellent grades and was top of her class.

But she was having sleepless nights.

She wasn't...

a happy child.

So, little by little,

as she got into her teens, she...

she wanted to see less of him.

She said that he was constantly criticizing her

and that she no longer felt that he loved her.

I remember she'd make up excuses to not go there.

There you go.

That period coincided with the time

where Étienne started having his issues.

So, I started by taking him to a psychologist,

his dad was told at that point.

In fact, he took his son to two of those sessions.

And when I told him I wanted to take Étienne to a gastroenterologist,

he was completely against it.

He didn't want to discuss it, he was opposed to getting him treated.

- False. - No, it's true.

Don't react.

So, Étienne's issues started

to prevent him from following regular schooling.

He is constantly scared...

He's scared of any leaks.

He's scared of being in public and for it to be smelly,

for him to be rejected or made fun of.

So, you know, it's complicated.

And, yes, I did get into the habit...

I got into the habit of putting underpants in his schoolbag

so that he could change in the restroom and throw the dirty ones in the trash.

That way, he'd avoid keeping them in his bag.

All of that, of course, had an impact my son's behavior.

He became increasingly withdrawn

and his introverted nature made our friends and family...

worry about him and want to know what was going on.

And it was when we were with a relative,

who I won't name,

that my son...

went into specific detail about his father's penis.

I asked Étienne a few questions and he confided in me

that he'd see himself from above being crushed by him.

I was so horrified when I heard that, I...

Which child says that?

Étienne told me that that's all he saw, that's all he remembered.

And once he told me that, I didn't want to push him

to go into more detail. I mean...

He told me he didn't remember it.

I didn't want to push him because I didn't want him to make up anything.

I think what he said was clear enough.

That, along with his physical issues, wasn't a coincidence.

So...

there are no witnesses, none,

because there can't be any.

Could you tell us what you did after Étienne's revelations?

Yes.

So...

So, at first,

I think I preferred not to believe it.

I mean, some time passed before...

I mulled everything over

and replayed it in my mind.

There were certain things that made more sense:

the anal tears that my son had once after being at his dad's.

Now it seems obvious, I...

I blame myself for not having thought of it sooner.

I should've realized...

It's impossible to think your child could go through that.

It was brutal, really brutal.

Unimaginable for me.

And...

I remember that, yes,

at the time, and still to this day,

Étienne would have a lot of angry outbursts,

really extreme ones.

All of a sudden, I understood

why he'd bang on the walls screaming: "Why are you doing that?"

Because he was suffering and he's still really suffering.

When I told Étienne's psychologist,

she also told me that she had suspected sexual abuse.

She had doubts because Étienne would insult his dad in the sessions.

She'd also noticed that when he played with dinosaur figurines,

that he would...

Sorry.

He would stuff their mouths with Play-Doh

as if to stop them from shouting.

I found out what needed to be done.

I called an incest helpline,

they told me they couldn't give any support without a court ruling.

A document was then sent to the CPS

and that's when I was encouraged to report a sexual assault.

I didn't know what was meant to be done.

And to this day, I still don't know

if I did everything right.

That seemed like the only way to make sure

that my son didn't have to relive what he went through.

You did everything you needed to, ma'am.

You know, Étienne's encopresis is so severe

and debilitating,

it stops him from having a normal childhood.

He's constantly fearful of being in public.

The lawyer said earlier that I enjoy changing nappies.

You think I like changing my 10-year-old's diaper

five times a day?

Do you think that? That I enjoy it?

So, yes, for the past two years, since the legal proceedings started,

I...

I've been losing the plot.

You know, I thought I would be...

I thought once I stated the facts, that I'd be supported, taken care of,

supported, protected, cared for

by the legal system, my family. Instead...

it feels like most people would rather think

that what my son or I are...

that what my children or I are saying isn't true.

They'd rather believe we're lying than believe our experience.

When I hear that a relationship needs to be maintained with the father...

when everything points to the fact that my son was raped.

It just makes me want to scream.

And, yes, I'm using that term.

Yes, their father is a rapist.

Sorry for asking this question,

but who would want to maintain contact with their rapist?

Nobody.

So, why are my children being forced to do it?

The last time my son thought he saw his dad

when we were on our way to the grocery store, he ran.

He froze, he was paralyzed, stunned.

All of a sudden, he ran off and jumped on the first bus he saw.

I found him on the other side of town.

All that over a guy who was just someone who looked like his dad.

Even I'm scared of bumping into him.

He's threatened us. He's shown up at my work

telling my colleagues that I kept my kids locked up.

I'm scared of him too.

I'm scared of him because I don't know him.

I don't know what he might do, what he's capable of.

He's next to me right now and I just want it to stop.

It's hard to realize that you've been intimate

with someone who's capable of that.

- Have you finished? - No.

What I'd like is some relief for myself, for my children.

Mainly for my children, for me too.

I'd also like to no longer have to get his consent

concerning any decisions regarding the children,

such as medical treatment.

He's still refusing to consent to Étienne receiving appropriate care.

Pardon the details, but on a regular basis,

I find small bits of dry poo around Étienne's bed.

The doctors say he's doing that to protect himself...

- This is too much. - Mr. Goossens...

Mr. Goossens, could you let my client finish?

So, yes, sometimes I do lose it.

When Étienne refuses to go to school because of fear or stomach pains,

I still try to encourage him to go because...

I'm scared of being seen as a bad mom

- and he gets so angry... - Ms. Piron.

It's OK.

He gets so angry that...

he hits me, hits the walls until he hurts himself.

So, yes, sometimes I've cracked, I've gotten physical.

Sometimes I've pinned him to the ground until he's calmed down.

I'm scared of him hurting himself,

of him jumping out the window as he's threatened to do in the past.

Yes, I've locked him up, tied him up,

doubled his dose of sleep medication.

Meanwhile, my daughter's looking on, resenting me for all of this.

I can't take it anymore.

My son is broken, ma'am. He's broken.

When I say that, it's not to shock you. I mean it.

I'm saying that because that's how it is.

My son is in pain, he's suffering.

So, who are we really trying to protect?

I'm done, Your Honor.

Thank you, Ms. Piron.

We'll now conclude this session.

I will make my decision regarding any potential measures...

next June 3.

The deliberations will be posted to you.

Thank you, you may...

- Thank you, Your Honor. - Thank you.

Goodbye, Your Honor.

You were great.

The other side.

So, now there's...

Hi, Mom.

You OK, Mom?

Yes.

- How many words are left? - A few, it won't take long.

"Savoring."

- "Savoring"? - Yeah.

- I don't know. - Maybe there.

No.

"Savoring" goes there.

- "Too", don't you have "too"? - No.

Those are the words. No "too".

Oh, yeah. Well done.

Mr. Goossens would like to give the children gifts.

For the last time, we don't wanna see him.

- OK, I'll tell them. - Thanks.

- You're not finishing the game? - No, let's go.

It's up to you. Either we go past him

or we wait here until he's gone.

- Mr. Goossens, step away. - Étienne!

- They don't want to see you. - Don't come in!

- This is ridiculous! - Stop, no!

You're scaring them!

- Don't go in. - You can't stop me.

- You're hurting them, don't you see that? - It's ridiculous.

- You're scaring them. - You're ridiculous.

- Let me through. - No.

Étienne.

I've got you a gift.

Étienne.

- Take it. - Leave me alone.

Look.

I hope you'll like it.

I'm not a monster.

He's gone.

It's over.

What was that?

Think you're gonna fix this with shitty gifts?

You good? Can you breathe?

You still breathing?

- His hair's not real. - I thought so!

I thought there was something up with his hair.

He has fake hair.

Look!

The worst part is that you can see the plastic, it's so ugly.

- You can see the plastic! - No way.

- Did he look like that today? - It's all that testosterone.

What's testosterone?

When old people lose their hair and then get hairy backs.

You don't have that.

I do, I've got hair on my arm.

I knew something was up with his hair.

Forward it to me, OK?

- No way. - Luckily, she notices that stuff.

That's the kind of thing she doesn't miss.

- I have a recording. - ...as I said earlier,

we're before the judge.

She is here to hear you out, to understand you and ask questions

because she needs to understand what's going on.

Do you agree?

Lila...

Can I ask you a few questions?

It's OK?

- Did you say hello to your father today? - No.

- Why? - We don't wanna see him.

And why don't you want to see him?

Étienne, do you feel the same?

I dunn... Yes.

Why?

You don't have to have the same opinion as your sister.

He also doesn't have to repeat himself 100 times.

Étienne...

Would you rather whisper it in my ear?

I don't want to see my father.

Do you have good memories with your dad?

Yes.

What, for example?

Do you want to tell us?

Do you like school?

It's OK.

He's done talking.

Really?

Would you rather stop?

You know, it's our job to listen to the children.

That's not true.

I wrote a letter saying I didn't want to see him and I did.

I'm always asked to explain myself, but I don't know anymore.

Anyway, nobody cares, no one believes us.

- Yes, yes, I believe you. - Why doesn't that change anything?

You know, the legal system is tricky.

It's slow, it takes time.

We have to hear everyone out.

But we believe you.

WE BELIEVE YOU

According to a WHO estimate,

20 percent of girls and 10 percent of boys worldwide

are victims of sexual violence during their childhood.

10 percent of these victims press charges.

Only 2 percent of them ever obtain justice.

Subtitles: Babel Subtitling - babelSUB.be