Original subtitles

Several weeks ago, I began to receive a number of

letters, phone calls,

postcards by constituents throughout the state.

They expressed a feeling of shock, of outrage, of anger.

I'll paraphrase some they said how dare you spend our taxpayers money

on this trash

They all objected to taxpayers

money being used for a piece of so-called artwork which to be quite

candid I am somewhat reluctant to to utter the name

in which this so-called deplorable, despicable display of vulgarity,

of obscenity, and it fits that definition as

it relates to the court's interpretations of what obscenity is, of

a photograph of the crucifix submerged in the artist's

urine. Here's a picture.

The title, Piss Christ.

What a disgrace.

What a disgrace.

Incredible.

Because if this continues, and if this goes unrectified, without there being

corrective action, these crazies will go further.

Michael Coulter was my friend for 25 years. He was also my assistant.

When we went to Amsterdam, somebody

gave us a camera, and so Michael started documenting everything we did.

He was always my partner in crime, and as he once said, we both had larceny in

our hearts.

Well, you know, Mark Wilson, who's the curator of the Groninger Museum in

Holland, he's an American that I know from here, and he at some point said he

wanted to organize a show of my work, a big retrospective in Holland.

And I said, yeah, sure.

And as this show, as the time came nearer to the show, a few months, maybe

six months before the show, he said to me, he asked me to, he invited me to go

to Holland to make some work there.

And I said to him, you know, frankly, Mark, I'm doing a new show at the, you

know, Paula Cooper Gallery. The show is called A History of Sex. So as much as

I'd like to, I don't have time to go to Holland to make work about the Dutch.

And he said to me, if you're doing sex pictures, why don't you come to

Amsterdam? And all of a sudden it made sense, and that's why I went to

Amsterdam.

The moment I got to Amsterdam, Mark Wilson hooked me up.

He provided me with all the necessary, you know, people and resources I needed.

And so from the beginning I was always in search of models and locations and

ideas.

This place is better for that sort of thing, but the white walls I don't like.

I would just have something in the background.

Yeah, so we're here now for, we'll be here for six weeks, almost two months.

He's taking erotic pictures.

Yeah, in Amsterdam I want to do erotic work.

And it's going to be part of the show. I'm a curator at the museum. He's the

curator at the museum organizing this show. It's a very big show. Big, big,

big, big show in February.

Oh, I've seen anyone else.

I'd like to meet anyone. Yeah?

Really? What will you do?

What would you do? You can handle it?

You've got a good look.

Yeah, you guys have a good look.

Actually, take their numbers too, huh? Yeah.

But you guys aren't afraid to, like, take off your clothes if it comes to

that? It's nothing too horrible, but... Remember, it's for a museum show, so...

Yeah, it's hard.

It's not pornography.

If you make beautiful pictures out of it, it's cool and all, but I don't like

pornography. No, it's not pornography.

This is kind of like theater in a way, you know? I mean, so it's not that far.

Right, Andre?

Your pictures. It's kind of like theater in a way, right? Yeah.

Andres' early work comes out of Bunuel's films, and so there is a real surrealist

background for Andres.

There is a play of fetishism, whether it be fetishism with a piece of meat that

one of his friends is holding as if it's a machine gun.

Or whether it's the fetishism of the cow's head that he puts on the faux-bois

pedestal.

It's very important, these highly cathected elements.

I'm not sure I figured out why they are, and I don't think it's necessarily

important to figure out.

There's a current theory of interpretation of dreams that sometimes,

if things are highly cathected, full of meaning, it's enough to look at them and

realize that they're full of meaning.

And since art is frequently dreams for the awake, societal dreams if you wish,

I think André's play with these fetishes is of extreme importance.

One of the people that helped me a lot in Amsterdam was Zaviera Hollander.

Zaviera Hollander is the happy hooker, and she had been asked by the Groningen

Museum to help me. They figured her sex expertise and the contacts she had would

be good for me.

Zaviera attracts all kinds of people, very creative, cultured people.

So Zaviera, you know, a couple of times invited me to a couple of her parties

where I would meet models and people.

have a good time, but mostly connect with people that might be interested in

participating in the project.

I'm here for another six or seven weeks actually.

Yeah, I'm trying to do some work here.

I'm staying in an apartment, you know.

Actually, she's a photographer, the woman I got the apartment from. Her name

is Marjolein Holland, I believe.

I met him before I saw a lot of pictures of him.

The pictures are different than the guy.

He likes disco tapes, he likes women, he's a little bit flat.

He took this picture when this young man was 20 years old.

His name is Lawrence Fishburne.

He was Larry Fishburne back in those days.

In this picture you can see that the meat and the person are same, are

together.

In harmony. He's not afraid of his weapon.

Yes. The weapon belongs to the man.

Yeah, they were in harmony. I think on that one. Yeah.

I don't like this.

And why is that?

It's too trick.

What does it mean?

You can't see it.

I don't like it.

I don't like pictures.

It can be everything.

And when...

The pumping can be everything. It is not interesting for me. What do you want to

say about this?

I don't know.

It's too nice.

You know what it is, of course.

I think it is the... I don't know. It is the... It's

the... Cotton?

This is his ejaculation.

This is his ejaculation.

This is his sperm.

He masturbated and he used a timing device to capture

it.

Yeah.

You know what it is? I'm having a show here at the Groninger Museum in

February.

No, you know, the thing is, I don't want a studio. What I want is to find

interesting locations, so that's what I keep looking for.

Interesting classical locations that are kind of old and, you know, very

beautiful, with some sort of available light, too, as well.

Yeah, we bought bikes.

We bought bikes last night off junkies, you know.

Starting in the middle of the 80s, he became involved with the new idea of

photography.

And photography was being challenged in the 1980s as a medium of veracity.

People were seeing that photographs necessarily don't tell the truth, but

they skew the truth in very particular ways.

And I think this turned on certain lights for Andres, because what he did

was to start working two-dimensionally.

And he started working with liquids that he had in plexiglass containers.

So one of the first was milk and blood.

But I think, you know, Andres' being a Catholic is extremely important to the

work.

and central to a lot of the work.

The church was this sort of wonder cabinet of aesthetics for Andre and

really drew him in as a child, but then what is behind that, you know, and

what's the sort of subterranean, you know, political and emotional aspects of

that Catholic teaching?

Have a feeling that if he had said as a title that this was a figure of Christ

in bodily fluids It would not have created the same problems as this Christ

and Andres has said he used the title Because he learned to write ad copy and

that it has a short very powerful very pungent quality to it

Is this the Piss Christ one?

No, it comes a little further on in.

Was the statue basically submerged in a tank of piss or was it just a filter

screen or something?

No, it's piss.

All of those... So how big was the tank?

Huh? How big was the tank?

How big was the statue also?

I just wondered how long it takes him to fill up one tank.

Well, he puts it in a bottle first, he said.

Yeah, but how many bottles?

Oh, a biggie.

A biggie. I like a full water cooler bottle. You know those big... Yeah, I

know. Five-gallon jar or more.

And so is it his own or other people's? All his.

All his. Does he have a particular sort of drinking diet before... He doesn't

drink beer either, by the way.

No, I noticed that.

Yeah.

Thank you.

I would say I practice my faith in my own way and it has nothing to do with

the church.

But I'm drawn to the aesthetics of the church and so a lot of times I'm using

images of Christian iconography in my work and Christ figure.

I was brought up Catholic and I was brought up in a Catholic boarding

school. Oh really?

And I was a... Did they spank you or anything? Did they hit you? They were

kind of tough. The nuns, I mean, they'd come after us with sticks.

Definitely priests.

The priests? They were fucking the little boys or what?

Well, not really fucking, but... Played with them?

They played with you?

Well,

the seniors did.

But I didn't like that.

The seniors?

Seniors, like the older...

The kids?

Yeah,

let me show you what this is. Let me explain to you. I did a lot of piss

pictures. These are tanks full of piss, my own urine.

And then I put a, I would put statues, like in this case, this is a classic

statue of a woman.

So this is a piss picture. I mean, there's like lights here behind the

tank, lights in front. This is all, this is all piss, you see?

And they are pretty pictures, but they also... No, this is awesome.

Yeah, see, I mean...

Yeah, the poolscape are beautiful.

I don't really want to have any, especially I don't want my

body hanging in a gallery or in a book.

Oh, you don't? No, not really.

Oh. Not my naked body anyway.

Okay. Yeah. What part of your body then would you want? Well, I thought... You

thought what? Well, a photo can also be somebody's face or somebody's...

i don't know what you what you want to do but um um i'm not interested in being

naked okay well that's good to know because you see because what we're doing

is erratic images and so a lot of times people don't have to yeah i already told

you when i told you um at the embassy um

uh i'm i'm busy with at the moment with myself

i'm making myself into a woman

Would you?

I'm not going to suck a horse.

If you're getting at that, I'm not going to suck a horse.

Well, would you hold the pee-pee?

I would do that. You could hold your red pee-pee, right? Yes.

But I'm not going to put him on that.

No.

No.

I think you're better off going somewhere like a sex club or a...

Getting people that are willing to do these things. You won't find them in

Holland. You won't find people that are just going to fuck in front of you.

My photographs exist on paper and in my head in one way and when I

decide to, when I actually do the images

I find that the models a lot of times bring something that I didn't anticipate

and they bring a lot more to the work than I could have hoped for. And so

sometimes I feel like I can't take credit for everything that happens in

the photographs because there are other people, you know, participating and

giving equal input to what goes on there.

Is it swamp?

Swamp.

But you know, it's all about signals. I mean, it's been a real education for me

going into these places and learning how people act without speaking.

Like non-verbal communication and the things that people do. And we almost

kind of behave like animals because we are animals, you know?

It isn't about conversation or any type of conversation.

body language would

you

like a coffee?

I liked Helena, but Michael loved Helena.

In fact, Michael was so in love with Helena, he wanted to do a film about

her.

Call yeah, but it's better just to be safe on that Because you know we're

going to run late.

Can I use your phone?

Yeah, sure.

Now, let me ask you something.

I was thinking, she said you were going to do the piss picture, right?

I wonder, yeah, she also mentioned that you had a big date, right? I was

wondering if, I'm not sure if I want you to do the piss picture or there's

another picture I would like you to do too. It's a masturbation picture.

Are you masturbating?

Would you do that one? Would you be able to do that one too?

Okay. Thanks a lot. Okay. See you Monday.

Tomorrow, yes.

Tomorrow. See you tomorrow. Bye.

Either way, he's going to meet me tomorrow at the Victoria Hotel at 5.30.

We're going out for location tomorrow night, I take it, no matter what it will

be.

So, if I could find another person, I could do two shots, you know?

I could do a fist-fishing and an ass-fishing. If I could find another guy

to get pissed on instead.

Okay. Alright, great.

I'm just keeping my legs together now. Yeah, like this.

Do you want it on top?

Does that help the situation?

Yeah, that's good. Let's try that.

You can hold out his arm to support you.

You should almost come in like a kisser.

Is that getting better?

And if he has an erection...

How

do

you feel that that's working?

I'm thinking like, we got to meet those people tomorrow at 5.30.

You know, do you think we should try to tell 5.30 tomorrow?

Or should we... Who?

Matthew. All of them. Yeah, all of them. I just need a white woman for Matthew.

It's kind of funny.

So, if we're going to do something, we're going to meet tomorrow at 5.30.

But I'll let you know tomorrow in the afternoon.

Otherwise we do it Wednesday.

I'm Matthew.

Yeah, so right now I still have to call her to tell her 5.30.

And to ask her if she'll suck the man's dick instead.

The black man's dick. But I think the piss picture is more important.

Yeah, but Ralph looks better with the masturbation shot, I think. I think.

I just think it's a pity if you leave here and you don't have the piss

picture. Well, I'll shoot it tomorrow.

I mean, I'm set to, I'm going to see him tomorrow.

We're set.

So if I don't find another, you know, his head, I'll use him.

Can we give him another try?

This is too high.

Everything is good. We just have to move the table a little bit.

A little bit where?

This way?

Yeah, this way.

We're going to go with this.

We're getting rid of this thing.

No, you know what? It's because you look huge.

You look big.

That was big.

When you hold it, make sure you pull it back so it looks nice and strong.

Actually, eventually she became an actress and I believe she's a featured

player on Dutch TV now.

What I like about Amsterdam is it's full of contradiction.

This church, for instance, faces a bunch of brothels in the red light district.

The last time I have photographed in the church was in Budapest where Michael and

I almost got arrested.

I was photographing in this church.

And I thought I had permission, and then this nun came up to me and she started

attacking the equipment.

So I was concerned for the equipment, so I had to physically separate the nun

from my equipment.

And once I did that, they locked the doors and tried to keep us in there.

We left and no sooner did we get in a cab, we saw a police car pulling up.

So we made a narrow escape in Budapest.

There's nothing coming out.

I mean,

for

Andres to go and shoot the Klan

was just an incredible thing.

I mean, he's fearless.

He wasn't doing this simply as a put-down of the Klan, but he was wanting

to show them with all the romance, all of the glamour, all of the hype that

they would love to see.

You know, he was very surprised at the experience that he had because he found

them to be just kind of normal people, you know, farmers.

And actually the Klan members were so thrilled, they said, you're a brother,

which is very strange considering his relationship to the Klan.

And I think what is so incredible about the Klan photographs, one is the pathos

of looking at these costumes that are obviously handmade.

some of them with threads that are unraveled. And I think the other thing

that is so powerful about Andre Serrano, and this is true of his work in general,

is that he mixes glamour with the other.

He is providing seductive views of the other.

He is hyping the other.

You said you wanted a white woman

The sea? Is he there?

For me, when I'm playing an SNL game of having sex

at the same time, I'm just an animal.

I can do it everywhere, I can come everywhere.

One day is always different than the other.

That's the same with pain.

Again, it's quite important that I know the person very well who's going to hurt

me. Or in S&M play, when I'm playing with such a person, I don't call it pain

anymore. It's just kind of very rough massage.

Very enjoyable.

And pain, I can go to hell and back

on pain.

I've been king. and the cane is a very thin bamboo

stick about this long with a rounded edge and you can

hit it on the ass of somebody preferably me

and when you do it good you see instantly two blue lines

at the sides where the cane waxed in your body And the inner line is quite

wide.

Those are... Well, you can call it pain.

But for me it's heaviness.

It's an avalanche.

And I can go very deep and very far with that.

Pain is something heavenly for me.

Are you in a relationship right now?

No. I'm not in a relationship at the moment.

I had some relationships, but it never worked

out really.

And I got an idea why.

Because I'm trying to get more than the person

actually can give me.

I can take so much.

I scare people in the scene.

Maybe with Louise.

She's a real nice friend of mine. She's got two kids.

She's got a nice family. She's a family person now.

She's not that much mistress or dominant person anymore.

But she's a bit of my girlfriend.

I'm visiting her regularly.

I'm bringing little presents for the kids. I'm playing with the kids.

and just have talks.

And yeah, that's my relationship actually with Louise.

She got a relationship with somebody else, of course not two kids, but I got

a relationship with her and she's a very fine person.

She gave me for the first time, hard.

And I surprised her, but she liked it.

When I take pictures, I'm finding myself and

You know, I think, I don't think I'm not, you know, I think it'd be

presumptuous or arrogant for me to think I'm enlightening the world. But it's

almost like I'm bringing something to the world, something to the table, you

know. I'm giving an offering.

I wanted to photograph gay couples, but I

realized that Hans and Franz went way beyond gayness.

because we're panning for the shooting vertical.

So I want to do some shots with you guys more upward so that we can get closer.

So you don't do the same thing, just bring it right up here.

Baby, now I got the flow.

Cause I know it from the start.

Baby, when you broke my heart.

That I had to do my thing.

I will show you that I'm winning.

Young life of mine.

All those things I said that I love you. Young life of mine.

Yes, I try.

Yes, I try.

Young life of mine.

Even though you knew I'd die for you. Young life.

This shot I did 13 rows of film.

Yeah, so it's a hundred and thirty pictures.

Sometimes the choice is easy. There's only one that's easy.

Yeah, yeah.

But sometimes the light is not good on some, so I look for the light. A lot of

things, you know.

And how long do they take on the... On the Agona?

They'll be, uh,

this high and about this wide. Really? Yeah, this high.

And the color is gold, yeah.

Leo was actually a character that Michael had told me about, that he met

at some of these fetish parties we went to. And I was intrigued about what went

on in Leo's head when he was doing these things. So I asked Michael if he would

introduce me to Leo.

And so Michael, he arranged for me to meet.

Leo said something very interesting. He said, I always get an erection whenever

I see a picture of a woman pissing into a man's mouth.

And I said to Michael, well, why not? We do requests. We play the hits. Let's do

that.

I'm going to have to go in the water.

There's a cluster of rocks. Do you see that?

Yeah.

I'm looking for a tree where I can pee.

Do you feel this is the shot, huh?

Is it okay if he

leaves his underwear on?

Let's take a polaroid and see what it looks like.

Nope, not now. Not for the polaroid.

It'll

probably

be ready to do it in five minutes.

All right.

Take a look.

No, I don't like the way she is.

I'm just pointing here at this spot, because that's where I have to look.

If I look there, I'm fine.

I'm going to throw the rope

to Martin now, because I think he's going to take his position.

She's starting to wet you already.

Oh, I'm so sorry.

Put the hand where it's supposed to be. Here?

Like this always, huh Andre?

Yeah. Like that?

Okay,

stop.

Yeah, you turned out to be real good for this picture. I didn't realize when I

first, when Xaviera first told me you were going to do the picture I was.

It wasn't the face that I had in mind, but yeah, it looks real good.

Oh, thank you very much.

Hey, where's the water?

Yeah, that's correct.

He was nice enough to go get it for you.

Are you happy already?

Oh, thank you.

The light is going to go in 15 minutes.

You must have problems in the United States with your work, or not?

Yeah, it's a little bit problematic sometimes, but it's okay.

This is all very, very dark and flat. There's no light here.

Whenever you're ready. Yep, go ahead.

Stop? Yep.

Okay.

Andre, give her a few seconds when she can, because the stream takes a few

minutes to go from thin to like... Okay. Yeah? Whenever you're ready.

Yep.

Stop? Yep.

You feel sorry for me, don't you?

Great.

You got enough for two big boats, two big pictures.

You got enough tea for two pictures?

Great.

You got some pee?

You got more?

Let's finish the roll.

This is what's left of my big dick.

Oh

shit!

Can you manage to do that?

Yeah, but then we probably won't see any of her pussy.

No, it's not the bevel. No? Okay.

Forget it.

So bad to be original, huh?

You come down.

Yeah, sorry, you gotta just go down again. As much as you can.

Do this.

Hold it. Yeah, do that.

Hold it, yeah, hold it. Just hold it tight.

No, just hold it.

Take my hair.

It's easy. Easier for me, too.

Great, yeah, that feels good. Just give me a little more space.

Hold it tight, hold it tight, yeah.

Yes, I'm sorry.

Go, go.

Can you hold it with two hands, yeah, like that? Just hold my hair.

Whatever, yeah, that's good.

A little more distance.

Yeah, that's good. Two hands, two more. Two hands, yeah.

If you want to participate in the arts, you'll have to suffer, I suppose.

Well,

you know, this photo, he requested it in a strange way. We were asking for exotic

beautiful photos you know like getting people to propose things right and uh

leo is so involved and uh one of the things he said to us the only thing he

said to us just as a matter of fact he says uh you know something that always

gives me an erection when i see a woman pissing in a man's mouth right it always

is very exciting i found it very exciting myself thank you was it

exciting for you um well it was uncomfortable laying on the stones but

for the rest i mean

Yeah.

Just, you know, whatever.

Uh-huh. It was nice. Well, thank you.

My turn to pee.

Yeah.

How about that?

When I was in my early 20s...

coming up with all these ideas for sexual images.

And I wrote down maybe 30 or 40 ideas.

And of course that list is long since gone.

And I don't even know if any of those images that I did for this show were on

that list. But I would say the question for me is not so much why did it take

me, why did I do it, but why did it take me so long to get to sex?

I mean, what do you feel when you watch it?

What I feel?

I feel very good. I like it when the people see.

See me.

I like the entertainment for the people.

It's a show, right?

It is a show, yes.

I didn't feel nothing in my mind.

I like it what we're doing.

It was an extraordinary experience for me.

Personally, we had the morgue pictures.

At first, in the beginning, I'd get to the door of the gallery and I'd kind of

take a big, deep breath and, you know, enter the gallery, but...

As I lived with the show, I started to think about everything.

I started to think not only about death or about these terrible things that

happen to the people in the photographs or the difficult deaths,

but I started to think about life.

He said that he started off very delicately and then he saw someone, I

guess the term is eviscerate a young female, and the body sort of opened up

and he realized after that that he didn't need to be quite so careful.

He has not revealed where the morgue is.

He was not allowed to reveal the identity of individual people.

Consequently, you find what looks almost like a liturgical cloth that is spread

over a portion of the face.

At a certain point, they became incredibly beautiful to me.

And that is, I think, Part of its power again that one is seduced by something

that one doesn't want to look at

So

I think we're at a stage now where i'm starting to get excited

about the last two shoots in particular you know i really the helena

the dwarf lady is really exciting for me as well

as uh as this one and that is the last two shots i mean the last the last two

shots

The shot is a little dramatic in terms of lighting,

but I think it will be good enough.

I'm amazed that I've been here five months. I didn't realize that.

I thought I'd been here three months.

I kept telling the people I was here less than three months.

In the photographs I've seen, are there...

things in the sex that you have photographed now that you've never heard

of before?

I think I learned a little bit about sexual relationships and I must say at

times though I've been confused because the level of tolerance in

Amsterdam has sometimes amazed me.

Low or high?

I've been impressed by it.

Well, under the right circumstances, it can be very, very high.

And I'm talking about seeing couples go into kinky parties where they have sex

with many people involved.

strangers and they leave there obviously as a couple even closer even closer than

ever and so you have to make you think about what real love is and jealousy sex

what is sex

Well, you know, it was the first time where we actually had an opening that

included a formal invitation to the models.

And I was a little nervous because it was the first time they were seeing the

work and the pictures of themselves.

But it turned out to be great. They seemed to have a great time. They spoke

to the press. They spoke to each other.

It was like going out on a picnic.

As

you

can see, it's a very good picture of me.

Very expressive, very painful.

Yeah, I like this.

And, of course, the two homos with the shaved heads.

They are so cute to see. It's so warm.

The old lady with the young man and the old man with the young lady. That

contrasts the pictures.

The fisting picture was nice as well. Because he's just standing there with a

fist in his ass, just looking like it's the normal thing to do.

Which it is. Which it is.

In the end, the Groningen Museum show became very controversial because of the

fact that the museum chose to use Leo's fantasy, the piss picture, as the

poster. And so what happened was that a lawyer representing, I believe, four

schools and eight churches went to court to try to get an injunction against the

poster being shown. Your last name is Serano? Serano. Serano.

Where does that originate from?

We are saying that this is art and we know that we can

put art outside the doors because it's a part of our show.

But that's our decision and they have another opinion.

It's a completely other opinion.

If I was just painting the images that I make, they would not be as effective, no

question. And it's because people confuse a photograph for the real thing.

This is, for example, the newspaper for today, Het Parool.

This is a national newspaper, the NRC of today.

But the judge ruled that the poster couldn't go, but the DAs in Rotterdam

and Amsterdam and Groningen said that they would prosecute anyone who put up

the poster.

And so, in the end, the poster was never used. Instead, it was sold as a

collector's item.

Eventually, I believe 90,000 people went to see the show, which is remarkable

because it's a small town.

The

museum

was happy, even though they got three bomb threats, two Molotov cocktails and

several graffiti attacks.

You know, they really, um, they have risen to the occasion. I mean, they

really are triple checking everybody.

You know, I never ever heard you say, you've gone too far.

That's, we can't do that.

No, because we didn't.

Yeah, sure, feel free to.

Oh, my God.

You know, I started off collecting stuff from flea markets and thrift stores,

actually thrift stores, 50 years ago, 20 years ago.

And eventually, though, I went back, I got into Victorian 19th century. Now I'm

at a point where I really am interested in 17th century or earlier.

You're not going to find that in any thrift stores.

No, no, no. There are specific stores I go to now.

15th century, 16th, 17th. And some pieces I have are actually 15th, 16th.

So, you know, even though this place is nice, I feel like I've outgrown it. I

have no more room. And I have to move, so I'm going to look for a place in the

city. What do the neighbors say if they ever get in here? Like, are they scared?

Yeah, you know, but sometimes people are a little curious. You know, I want to

live in a home that's something between a church and a museum. Right, right,

right.

Well, Sort of place where somebody goes in and they don't believe that you live

there. Yeah, exactly.

Or they're just very confused. That's what I mean when they come in here. For

most, the neighbor's house doesn't look like this. Yeah, I hope not.

So you're not keeping up with the Joneses.

Man, I like your stuff. I thought it was good.

I mean, even when you did Piss Christ, we did this thing called the rosary job

in one of my movies, which caused people to... go so crazy.

But I think I did it for different reasons. I did it to purpose. I don't

think you did do Piss Christ for that reason.

No, no. It was like what happened was almost like an accident or an

act of destiny because it certainly wasn't expected or intended.

It's the only postcard I've ever sent to prison that didn't make it through the

censors. They tore it up. But I've sent to prison some pretty weird postcards

it's the only one that was actually never made it well you know i got

another postcard let me get it for you so moving out of here is going to be

difficult oh imagine it's funny every when i saw this i thought of a person

that actually said that all his life he had wanted to do this yeah and finally

did it and for 20 years he hasn't been able to get the taste out of it which i

think sums it up

In the beginning with you, didn't all the bad publicity help?

Of course it does.

It still does. It still does. And I want to ask you something.

Because I don't quite know how to deal with it. I mean, I do know how to deal

with it. I've processed it and everything. But I'm talking about bad

reviews.

I know the New York Times. I read it.

It was mean.

It was mean.

But I've had ones that mean in my life, too. It happens like that all the time,

especially when work is very sensational.

Which yours is.

But doesn't it hurt your feelings? Yes, of course it does. You gotta take this

shit personal, right?

You have to try not to.

When the chief critic of the New York Times says to me, like, Andre Serrano's

15 minutes are up, you know?

I know, that's mean. I'll be the first to say, that is really mean.

The art world is certainly different, but you're lucky in a way that no matter

what, it doesn't have to play in Peoria.

You don't have to. You think it's hard to please an artwork. You should try to

have to please families in Omaha.

It's much harder to please them.

Do you find, like, the audiences listen to the critics, or do they just, you

know, form their own opinions?

The only way you can look at it, I mean, it would be better if it was good.

There's no way about it, you know? That's the truth. Same with movie

reviews. You think, well, this could be the... Bullshit. It would be better if

it was good. But if it isn't, all you can do is put it with all the other ones

and say, that's it. Still, it draws people in.

you know, to the shows. I'm sure that is what the movie business... Yeah, tons of

people... They call it money review. I mean, did more people come to see it?

Exactly. The day the review came out and the day afterwards, a ton of people came

as a result of the review, you know? And some people have even said to me, oh, I

saw the New York Times, you know, review, great review.

And I said, did you read it? It was bad. And they're like, no, I didn't read it,

but it was a great picture, you know? And so...

I actually gave your book to a lot of people for Christmas, and they actually

liked it very much. The most troublesome ones to me are the old people. Oh,

really? They're the most alarming to me, because as I get older, I... Really?

Yeah, to me... As I get older, I get better.

Well, I think I get better, too, but to me, the older ones, you almost never see

that.

But that's why I did it. I know, and there's a term, gerontophilia, the

sexual attraction to old people.

Which I hope I meet one.

You mean there's a... There is. They're also, we call them wrinkle queens.

I'm hoping to meet one. A young, budding gerontophiliac.

Well, you know, I noticed that, you know, at my age, that, you know, that

women half my age are now more interested in me than they were when I

was their age. That's fame and power, though. Really?

I don't care what it is. I like it. I like it.

I'll take it any way I can. I don't care what it is. That's a good one.

That's a good attitude.

Right.

Now,

will you sign this for me? Absolutely. Good. Let me jump.

What should I write? Whatever you want. I'm always stumped. I know.

Whatever you want. I found a neat trick. Just sign it. I was going to say, I

found a neat trick recently.

Sometimes I just like doing my signature.

And if I do just my signature to people when they hand me the book, and if I

don't say anything, sometimes they're too polite or they don't say, can you

write it out to me? No, but here's what you should tell them. The truth is, if

we're both famous, it's worth more if it's to both of us. If one person isn't

famous, it's worth more if you just sign it. If it's to Bill and Bill's nobody,

it ruins the value of you signing it.

Oh, really? Yeah, but if it's to somebody in the space, then it's both to

put both. But you know what I mean? So when people always say to me, well, just

sign it, I think, well, that's better. They can sell it.

Okay,

so how should I do it? Just put to me and sign it. That's fine. And the date.

And maybe Brooklyn.

You know what I mean? Because you're not going to live here much longer.

You might if you're looking for an apartment in New York. That could take

ten years to find one.

Especially now when rent control might be over any second. You better get one

soon.

Your condo is better, right? Yes. You think you would get a hassle with the

cold floors?

Yes. Yeah, probably. Yeah, are you kidding? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Hey,

thank you for coming out. Sure, thanks so much. It's great. Thanks, I love your

house. You're a real nice person, you know. Thanks very much. Thank you.

My agenda has always been to be an artist, to produce my work, and so I've

never felt like I wanted to be part of any kind of debate on censorship.

But at the same time, I must say that the controversy, all the controversies,

they just make me feel more, they empower me because they make me realize,

yes, I can take the heat, so I'm going to stay in the kitchen.

Senator from North Carolina.

Mr. President, it is precisely because of the so-called art community's failure

to understand or their deliberate refusal to understand that a difference

exists between an artist's right to free expression and his right to have the

government, that is to say, the taxpayers, pay for it.

Now, I'm not going into detail about the crudeness of the art in question.

I don't even acknowledge that it's art.

I don't even acknowledge that the fellow who did it was an artist. I think he was

a jerk.

And I said that earlier.

But in any case, there's a fundamental difference between government

censorship, the preemption of publication or production, and the

government's refusal to pay for such publication and production.

Artists have a right, it is said, to express their feelings as they wish.

Only a Philistine would suggest the contrary.

But... No artist has a preemptive claim on the tax dollars of the American

people to put forth such trash.

That's the point of this amendment, and if anybody wants to debate it further, I

can go further, but I think that the point has been made on both sides.

I think this film is as much, if not more, about Michael than it is about me.

I love

you.

Yes, I try.

Even though you know I'd die for you.