Original subtitles

[♪ "You Must Love Me" by Jay-Z playing]

-♪ Throughout my life ♪ -♪ Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh ♪

-♪ No matter what I've done ♪ -♪ Right ♪

♪ You've been merciful ♪

-♪ And your love endureth ♪ -♪ Yeah ♪

-♪ Through all things ♪ -♪ Yeah ♪

♪ For that, I am eternally grateful ♪

♪ Say that you love me, yeah ♪

♪ You must love me ♪

♪ All I know, say that you must love me ♪

♪ You must love me ♪

♪ Ohh, yeah ♪

♪ You must love me-- ♪

-[♪ music stops abruptly] -[Jay-Z] Man.

I can't believe I wrote that at--

So again, I was 27.

-But still early in my career. -Yeah.

-Second album. -And you're saying that as a person,

-you wouldn't have said these things in real life. -No. Not a chance.

Not a chance.

That's crazy.

And I was saying also, like the first time, you know,

hearing this would be on record.

It wasn't like it was a heads-up, either.

It wasn't like some-- "Let me sit down.

This is what I'm saying."

-Yeah. -Like, 4:44 is way different.

When I wrote that, uh, Smile,

-about my mom... -Mm-hmm.

...it was a conversation, like,

"Hey, this is-- Listen to this."

The first-- I remember the first time hearing it,

she was like, "No. That's my story to tell."

And I was like, "Yeah, but, you know...

let me mentor you through this process."

And it was like a-- a real conversation.

Until, like, maybe a month later

she came to LA and she had wrote-- written that poem

on the plane, and she came like, "Listen to this."

And it was like-- Uh, it was like

her saying yes and the blessings

-and, like, the completion... -Yes.

...of a real healthy conversation...

-Incredible. -...about speaking about certain things, you know?

This was unhealthy, it was just...

Like you said, it was therapy for me,

but it wasn't all the way fair to people...

[Rick Rubin] Let's talk about what's going on in your head

to allow this to come out

-in your art. -Yeah.

Even that is radical.

-Yes, exactly. -These are the words

not to be said, and you're laying it out.

This was the only place-- was my only outlet

for-- to release these.

You know, you can hear the shame and guilt

-in all of these verses. -Yeah.

I say later on a thing, "In more than one way,

-cocaine numbs the brain." -Yeah.

Like, you-- you start numbing yourself...

-Yes. -...to things that you would never do.

-Yes. -Like, you start losing yourself in that.

Like, it's always like-- I always say

there's two sides of substance abuse.

You know, people get addicted to that feeling

and the adrenaline to being hustlers

and being in that life

that like, you know,

you start look-- overlooking things.

You have to-- you have to compartmentalize.

-Absolutely, to be able to do it. -To be able to do it.

-Yeah. Yes. -Yeah. Yes.

You know what I mean, you have to, like, make these versions of yourself.

-Yeah. -You have to splinter off into all these little versions

to justify what you're doing, say, "I'm gonna do that,

"but I'm not gonna do this.

"I'll sell drugs to this person, but I won't sell it

to a pregnant woman."

But you end up living in a really small box.

Yeah. A-And I could hear, like, just dealing with that.

Like, dealing with that, and dealing with--

in a real-- there's like-- like in a real way, like--

-In a real way, in a poetic way. -Real emotions.

-Yeah. -You feel the emotion in it.

-Yeah. Yeah. -And in the context of someone who's--

you hear bragging on records, this is shocking.

-Right. Yeah. -It's shocking.

It was always the moment, and this one,

I believe was the last song on the album.

Like, when the last song came in where I was super introspective.

Even on the first album, the last song is Regrets.

-"When I was young, you used to hold me." -Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was a rapper saying, "You used to hold me."

-Yeah. -"You told me I was--" Another song to my mom--

"When I was young, you used to hold me.

"Told me I was the best.

Everything-- only thing I want is all that I regret."

Oh, "In order to survive, had to learn to live with regrets."

Again, this compartmentalization

of like, I had to put away those feelings.

I couldn't deal with regret and mistakes.

You gotta-- you gotta keep going.

You can't dwell on it. "Oh man, I did that? Ah."

[claps] Keep going.

And once you start doing that, obviously,

you burying your feelings and burying those feelings.

-They're not going anywhere. -No.

They're there.

They start filling up, filling up, filling up,

-until either you snap... -Yeah.

...or, you know, something happens.

-You know? -That also can explain why...

the album a year, the-- the need...

-Yeah. -...to move as fast as you were moving as an artist.

-Yeah. -Was for that purpose of,

you need to get this information out of yourself.

Yeah.

Do you remember if you felt any sense of peace

when you-- once you said it?

Any memories of...

I don't have a distinct memory of peace, but...

I can definite-- definitely relate,

connect to being able to say that...

-Yeah. -...for someone who doesn't speak,

would be so freeing.

I'm sure in the booth it was just like...

-Yeah. -You know.

You know, um...

I don't even remember being in the booth.

It must have been one of those times.

-Yeah. -'Cause, you know, where you just...

-Yeah, yeah, yeah. -...you just go somewhere else,

-and it's just like... -Yeah.

You know, soul takes over.

[Rick] Yeah.

It doesn't even sound like your voice.

I know, it's like much deeper.

Yeah.

I think I was-- I think the bravado

of that-- of still being-- I remember,

this is-- this is two years removed from the street.

-Yeah. -And I think it did something like you had to, like...

[in deeper voice] "Yo, what's up, you know what I'm saying, like..."

-Yeah. -I-- there's a-- I can't even, like,

listen to, like, a lot of my interviews

'cause I'm like, I don't even-- I don't--

You don't relate to that person.

-I don't even talk like that. -Yeah, yeah.

-[chuckles] Yeah. Yeah. -Yeah.

[gunshot]

Tell me the story of that verse.

-That... [sighs] -[laughing]

-Okay. -[both laugh]

So, my brother, who was my hero,

at one time was like really-- was on drugs.

-Mm-hmm. -And he was stealing things around the house.

And we knew this.

But there was this ring, it was like a three-finger ring

that-- I was dating a girl at that time-- that bought me.

And she was at the house.

And I had just left the room

and I put the ring down and, whatever.

And I came back and the ring was gone.

I'm like, "Who took my ring?"

Like, looking around, Eric took the ring.

Like, "Yo, you took my ring," and he had this look.

I knew he took it.

And I think that because of the embarrassment

and the girl is there as well, you know,

and maybe the-- just the frustration

of how many times he was stealing from out the house...

it just kept...

it kept escalating.

And it was like...

it wasn't like-- even in-- in the verse, I say,

"Hoping that you said no,"

or maybe-- maybe he was looking for that.

Like, he just kept pushing the-- the issue,

and I just kept going further in my-- my-- my ego

and, you know, my embarrassment.

The gi-- this is my big brother, stole my ring

in front of the girl, and da-da-da-da.

And it just, like, kept escalating.

-Mm. -Kept escalating.

And I never thought it would end

the way it end, like...

It just-- it got to a point. It was like, wait, what?

It seemed like it happened like this. [snapping]

It's like, what the fuck just happened here?

And again, like, to his credit, the next day he was like,

"Yo, tell Shawn-- tell Shawn, you know,

-come see me and..." -That's the line.

-Yeah. Yeah. -That's the line when I'm listening

-that hits me just like, I can't believe it. -Yeah.

It's so beautiful.

It's so beautiful that you tell the story

and that that's how that-- that verse ends.

Yeah.

-So much there. -Yeah.

-Incredible. -And it's-- and again,

you look at those things and it's like,

how could you, like, man.

It shows how far away from who you are

you-- you become.

-Yes. -It's kind of frightening, like,

how desensitized a person could come.

I'm really just a regular, normal kid.

-Yeah. -All my years of hustling,

I always stayed away from violence.

There was-- I wanted-- I was a hustler, not a gangster.

-Mm-hmm. -The big difference.

You know what I mean? I didn't want to hurt nobody.

-Yeah. -I didn't wanna embarrass nobody.

I didn't wanna bully anybody. I hate bullies.

-Mm-hmm. -But I would fight.

I would do whatever. I wouldn't allow myself

-to be bullied at all. -Mm-hmm.

-You know what I mean? Like, that's just not gonna happen. -Yeah. Yeah.

But I wouldn't seek out any problems.

I didn't wanna move anybody by hurting them.

"Let me take your block."

I ain't wanna rob people.

No way.

-Straight up, you give me... -Yeah.

"I owe you $5? Here's $5." You know what I mean? Like...

Yeah, yeah, yeah, transaction. Straight up transac-- business.

-Straight. Straight. -Doing business.

Reputation golden. You know?

-Yeah. -Um...

How did people treat you differently

when you were a kingpin in your old life

versus a kingpin in your new life?

In-- in that life, you're a-- you're a star.

-Yeah. -Like, people see your car, they know who you are.

A lot of similarities.

I think that music and entertainment is just...

more widespread.

-For everybody. -Mainstream and worldwide,

-and little kids coming up... -Yeah.

...saying, "Can I have your autograph?"

-Yeah. -There was no autograph signing.

-[chuckles] -And you said earlier

that in those days

you would not want your picture taken.

-Exactly. Yeah. -It's kind of the opposite

in terms of where the spotlight is.

Yeah, that's right. And we were talking about--

when the music started, we were talking about how--

how you're hiding, but meanwhile, we have Acuras

and Legends with TVs in 'em and, you know,

-all these foreign cars. -And dressed obviously.

But we would do things like,

we're not gonna drive our cars in the town.

We drive 'em to the edge of the town

and then we either ride a bike or ride, like,

-what they called a hooptie. -Yeah.

It's like a-- like a older car.

-Yeah. -Like an older beat-up car so you-- you...

-Low profile. -Like incognito, low profile.

-Yeah. -We ride to the edge of town.

Obviously, the police was watching us, right?

-Yeah. -At some point we realized that

-when Emory went to jail. -Mm-hmm.

They ride to the edge of town, take our cars,

park those little things, jump back in like a foreign car,

and then we was like...

-Amazing. -"What? It's ridiculous."

[chuckles] Like, where do we think we're going?

But in your mind, again, you move the line

to, like, this makes perfect sense.

-I'm not driving it. -No.

-I'm not shitting where-- -No, you're being careful.

-I'm being careful. -Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah.

[♪ "Lyrical Exercise" playing]

♪ One, one, two, two ♪

♪ Three, three, four, breathe easy ♪

The "drop the set" line.

Had you already worked out with trainers and stuff?

-How would you know about dropping a set? -I must have.

-That's like some weightlifter talk. -Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

-Very specific, again. -Yeah. Yeah.

♪ Breathe easy ♪

Sometimes, you know, I-- I will--

I will always say, how would I know that?

-How is that even possible? -Yeah. 'Cause I meant-- Yeah.

That's my favorite line right there.

I'ma-- I'll tell you about that line.

♪ One, two ♪

-[♪ music stops] -[Jay-Z chuckles]

-That was fun. -Yeah.

Um, I was saying my fir-- my favorite line

was "Jigga Man is diesel when I lift the eight up."

So, "diesel" meaning strong.

-Yeah. -He's got that-- you know, he's cocked diesel.

-Yeah, yeah. -And then, the "eight,"

referencing a gun, a .38.

-Mm-hmm. -He said, "D-Diesel when I lift the eight up."

But the second meaning of that, when Kobe...

and Shaq won the championship,

there's a famous photo of Shaq holding him in his hand.

"Jigga Man is diesel." They call Shaq "Shaq Diesel,"

'cause he was so strong.

"Jigga Man is diesel when I lift the eight up."

-Kobe number was eight. -Wow.

So, he had Kobe in his hand.

-So cool. -[chuckles] Yeah.

Would you ever research for a song?

Like, I was asking you about the "drop set" lines.

Like, I don't know how you would know that terminology.

Look at all the detail in this.

-No, then I would... -Look, it's...

There were times where I-- where words,

especially in the first album,

like, there was, like, us-- the word usage.

It's like, I don't even know how I-- how that entered my...

-my lexicon, I guess, you know? -Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, I don't know how that entered my body.

-I never used that word. -Yeah, it's funny.

I have the experience sometimes where the right word

comes to my mind that I've never used before,

and I-- I know what it means, but it's not in my vocabulary.

-Right. -And it's just like, oh,

that's just the right word to use now.

And I say it, and I-- I'll laugh to myself

-if I say it or write it. -Uh-huh.

Because it's just like, I don't use that word,

but it's so specific and it's the right word

-for the right case. -Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

-Amazing. -Yeah, it is.

-It's one of those, again... -Yeah.

...being tapped into our subconscious,

being able to find the stuff that's there.

Yeah, we don't know what we know.

That's right. I love that.

-Yeah. -Mm-hmm.

I love these clipboards.

[chuckles]

-Oh, man. -[♪ "This Can't Be Life" begins playing]

[both laughing]

♪ What's up? ♪

I love these, your song selection is fantastic.

-[chuckles] -I mean, obviously.

-[laughing] -♪ Everybody got a story ♪

♪ We all ghetto, B ♪

♪ Here's mine ♪

♪ This can't be life, this can't be love ♪

And I almost had to do it to, like, cope with the pain.

-Yeah. -I'm talking about the painful stuff right there.

-Yeah. -"Tears... [mumbling]

"She got her palm to it."

I had to figure out...

you know, almost like when-- when someone--

something bad's happened, someone laugh.

-Almost like a nervous reaction. -Yeah.

It's like, why are you laughing? It's like...

-Too much. -Too much.

-Yeah. -Um, I was seeing a girl,

um, and she had just had a-- a miscarriage.

And I was like, super excited, I'm about to have a baby

and all these things, and it's like...

I wasn't ready for a child. You know what I mean?

And it's just like...

Um...

It's like just going through those-- those emotions.

It's like, anytime-- "Guesstimate the weight you--"

I'm talking about just coming up.

-Yeah. -My mom's old car

that we used to jump in.

My brother crashed that car. [chuckles]

And seeing the game, like,

wanting to be a rapper, and, like,

Biggie and Craig Mack had a campaign

-called "B.I.G. Mack." -[patting table]

-It was a really brilliant campaign... -Yeah.

...when they first album come out, and--

And this is me watching it.

"It's like '93, '94, about the year

that Big and Mack dropped and 'Illmatic' rocked."

Illmatic came out like '94.

"Outta every rag drop and the West had it locked.

"Everybody doing them. I'm still stretching

on the block like, damn, I'm gonna be a failure."

And, like, my reality, "surrounded by thugs...

-Yeah. -"...drugs and drug paraphernalia.

"cops, courts and their-- and their thoughts is to derail us.

Three-time felons in shorts."

You know, still young boys wearing shorts.

-Yeah. -"With jealous thoughts,

trying to guesstimate--"

Uh, "Trying to figure where your mail is."

"Guesstimate."

I don't even know why I would guesstimate. What?

-"Guesstimate the weight you're selling." -Yeah.

"So they could send shots straight to your melon-- wait.

It gets worse."

Yeah, then, that flow comes to, like,

"Baby mama water burst. Baby came out stillborn."

It wasn't-- that-- again, creative license.

-Yeah, yeah, yeah. -It didn't go that far, she just had a-- a miscarriage.

No, but-- but it works so good

and it paints such a clear picture.

Yeah. Yeah.

-[♪ music resuming] -♪ This can't be us ♪

-♪ This can't be life ♪ -[♪ music stops]

-Wow. -It's unbelievable.

-Wow. -Yeah.

And that-- everything happened exactly like that.

So, he was coming to do this song,

and he walks in the studio...

and he gets on the phone and, uh...

the whole expression changed, and he's just like,

you know, he's gone.

And then, he gets the phone, like, man.

And he calls his wife...

tells his wife what happened and he's-- he's done.

Like, he-- You can see he's visibly in pain.

And I say, "Hey, man, you know, we-- let's do this another time.

Like, let's-- let's not, uh, let's not do this now."

He's like, "No, Jig." He call me Jig.

"Nah, Jig. No, well, we need to do this right now."

And then, um, he goes in.

Now, "As I walk into the studio--"

I'm listening-- "to do this with Jig,

"I get a phone call from one of my nigs

"said my homeboy Reek, he just lost one of his kids.

And when I heard that, I just broke into tears."

And I call-- And he said-- He said he called his wife,

"and I broke into tears.

"And the second hand, you don't really know how it is,

"but it hits that close to home. You feel a pain in your crib.

-So, I called mines." -Yeah.

You know, you think, "Man, I can't imagine losing my child."

-No. -And-- And you call your house.

"So, I called mine.

"I saddened my wife with the bad news.

"Now we both depressed, counting our blessings

'cause Brad two." Like, and you start

-thinking about your kids. -Yeah. Yes.

You know, it's not selfish, it's like...

-No. -...a reaction to think

-about your own kids. -Yeah.

And then he says,

"Brad two, praying for young souls

"who laugh at life through the stars,

"loving your kids just like they were ours.

And I'm hurting for you, dog."

-And something as... -I'm getting chills.

...as simple of a line as,

-"And I'm hurting for you, dog." -Yeah.

-'Cause it's so real. -That's right.

-That's not rap lyrics. -Yes. Exactly.

-That's just real life. -Yeah.

He was able in the moment

to turn that experience into this.

-And he used... -Mm-hmm.

...that tragedy to make something beautiful.

And then another part, when he says,

"I could have rapped about my hard times on this song."

-Yeah. Yeah. -In that moment, that would've been wrong.

-He wasn't saying, like, in general. -Yeah.

-No. -Like rapping about himself.

-In this moment. -In this moment.

"I just got this call."

-"I could--" -"I'm lucky."

-"I'm here." -He is-- he is--

I don't know if there's ever been a more aware

or conscious verse.

Well, I haven't witnessed.

'Cause he's talking about what's happening right now.

"And I could have rapped about my hard times in the song.

"But heaven knows I would've been wrong.

It wouldn't have been life. It wouldn't have been love."

-Yeah. -"I wouldn't have been right.

"It wouldn't have been us. This can't be life.

"This can't be life.

-This can't be love." -Wild.

It's one of my favorite hooks. Just so simple.

"There gotta be more. Gotta be more.

"This can't be us. This can't be life.

-This can't be love." -Yeah.

I think that was one of Tupac's, um, superpowers.

He was able to say really simple things,

really powerful things. So, you know, his--

The knock on him is like, he's not a "great rapper,"

like a technical rapper.

And I-- you know, I argue that with, it's hard to do that.

It's hard to say really powerful things...

you know, just like in simple phrases.

"Dear Mama."

-"Dear Mama," like that-- -Says a lot.

-Says so much. -A lot.

That's harder to say than, you know,

"I got a mama like this 'cause my mama is like--"

Like, yeah, I get the technical playing with words,

but it's-- you just playing with words.

[hitting table] He struck a real emotional chord.

Like, he took a piece of you and brought it to the forefront.

Like, he tapped into an emotion that we all feel.

Those things are hard.

Like, that's why it's one of my favorites.

Back to the point, it's like, this can't be life.

This can't be love. This can't be right.

It's just a question of, you know, a hard life.

And when those sort of things happen,

like someone's son, like-- and if you believe in karma,

he's like, "What if this kid-- what could this kid have done?"

And now it gets to a different place of, "How do I explain this?"

I-- I experienced that with my nephew.

-Yeah. -Like, you know,

when, uh, people pass, it was like...

we're in life, so I could see that happening.

You know, friends of mine that were close to me,

and young-- young boys, 18, 19, 17.

Black Eric, Vance, T. Lowe,

I could go on and on and on.

-People that I grew up with and was around. -Yeah.

We know that these things can happen.

-Yeah. -So, my nephew was in a car accident.

I'm like, this kid was so beautiful.

This kid was so pure, never done a thing in his life.

Went-- going to school.

I actually bought him the car as a graduation gift.

You know, and it was like,

for the first time it was like,

"I can't really explain why that is."

Yeah.

And there was just like no explanation for it.

Until, like, a year later,

it was like, his girlfriend's pregnant.

Another kid.

He had a kid. And it's like, you know,

it doesn't put it all in a neat box...

-No. -...but it-- it certainly is like...

"Oh, my goodness." You know what I mean?

It's just like...

In these moments, when it's like, why him?

All these people doing all these terrible things in the world,

-take them. -Yeah.

And it's just not neat like that, it just--

-No. -Everything happens for a reason

and the reason may not have anything to do with you.

And it's beyond our scope

-of understanding. -Yeah.

-It's bigger than us. -That's right.

-There's some other thing going on. -Right.

-We're just playing our part. -That's right.

Best of our ability.

And it's not bad or good or anything.

-No. -It's just happening.

-It just happens. -It's just how we relate to it.

There's a verse you have. I'll talk about it now,

even though we're probably gonna hear it at another time,

because it hit me in such an emotional way

when I was listening, where it's a verse

-to your nephew. -Mm-hmm.

You're giving him, um,

-fatherly advice. -Mm-hmm.

The first time I heard it, for some reason

when I'm listening to it,

I didn't hear that it was to your nephew.

-Mm-hmm. -I just heard you

-giving fatherly advice in the verse. -Right.

And I started crying.

Because what I-- what it struck me as was...

it felt like you were saying this for everybody listening...

whose father either isn't there

or isn't savvy enough

-to give them good advice. -Mm-hmm.

And you were sharing this fatherly wisdom

for everybody listening.

And I'm thinking about the kids who really need to hear this.

And it just struck me as, this is unbelievable

-that this is in a song that's so beautiful. -Mm-hmm.

And that's when rap has really worked.

That's the beauty of it, like when you hear certain songs

and it's like, "That's it. I can relate to that.

I'm going through the same thing with my nephews."

-You can't make that up. -Yeah.

Those are real emotions, and real feelings,

and real words, and I need that.

I can't even imagine what this verse did for the family.

[Rick] Yeah.

How healing it was to them, to this specific family,

and to people who just went through...

-...similar tragedy. Yeah. -Anyone who goes through a tragedy.

-Yeah. -That's Scarface.

Was he...

the first one that you heard do something like this?

And when I say "something like this," I don't mean...

-I mean, this is very specific, but I mean... -Yeah.

-He always writes like this. -Always.

-He's always like... -Yeah. Yeah.

...ripping his chest open and tearing his heart out.

"Never seen a man cry till I see that man die."

"Man die." It's like, what?

He's one of my favorite of all time.

-Yeah. -Because of that.

-Yes. -'Cause he was so emotional...

and then talking about Mr. Scarface,

-talking about the hardest shit ever made. -Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then the next song, he's just like, you know,

"And my mama told me... [mumbling]

and my mama gave me blessings." It's so spiritual.

-Yeah. -And it's just like,

it's so real and so just like...

-Again, so vulnerable. -Yes.

The pictures of these people are not just stereotype...

-Exactly. -...gangster bad guy.

-Exactly. -We get to see

-the whole picture. -That's right.

We get to see the emotion and the depth.

-Some people can't get it all the way there. -Yeah.

And he was one who could go all the way into the emotions.

Speaking of going for emotions...

-[chuckles] -...let's hear 4:44.

-Mm. Come on, man. -♪ Do I find it so hard ♪

-Come on, Rick. -[both laughing]

♪ When I know in my heart ♪

[Rick] Had 'em stacked up in order for a certain reason.

-[laughing] -♪ I'm letting you down every day ♪

♪ Letting you down every day ♪

♪ Day-day ♪

[singer vocalizing]

It's sad.

[chuckles] Thank you.

♪ Oh, no, and I'm never gonna treat you ♪

♪ I'm never gonna treat you like I should ♪

♪ Ohh ♪

[Rick exhales sharply]

-Yeah. -[both chuckle]

♪ And I'm never gonna treat you ♪

-Can I give you a hug up in here? -[both laughing]

♪ Treat you like I should ♪

[indistinct]

♪ Oh, no ♪

♪ I'm never gonna treat you ♪

♪ Like I should ♪

♪ Mm ♪

-[♪ music stops] -Okay. [chuckles]

-On that note. -On that note.

I think that's maybe the s...

-The-- it's on par with You Must Love Me. -Yeah.

Probably heard that song...

less than any song that I've ever written...

except for, You Must Love Me.

-Wow. -You know what I mean?

Like, just listening to it is hard.

-Yeah. -Like, doing it was difficult enough.

-Yeah. -Then, hearing it back.

-Yeah. -You know, it was just like...

at-- at some point...

um... we got taught so many other things.

Again, like I say, you get taught to spot that

you-- you know this, I know that.

I know not to pull up to a car too close

'cause you wanna make sure you can go to the left or right.

I tell my driver, "Don't pull up so close,"

you know, 'cause I learned that from the streets.

I never would pull up too close, and--

Like, all these things that you would know,

like this kind of wisdom, but you had--

we had zero emotional intelligence.

[Rick] Yeah.

We've never seen healthy relationships...

-No. -...in-- in the spaces.

And even when you think you're ready--

So, when I thought I was ready,

when I met my dad and all those walls came down...

-Yeah. -...I still didn't have the tools.

-Yeah. -Now, you need the tools

to know how to communicate and how to have a relationship.

[Rick] There's a line about, um...

"'Don't embarrass me' instead of 'be mine.'"

Oh yeah, that was-- that was really--

That's-- that's how we started going together.

I was so, again, immature, and so, like,

-afraid to be vulnerable. -Yeah.

So afraid to be vulnerable that I like this person.

-Yes. -I like this woman.

-Yes. -And I'm like, how do we go--

like, how do we take the step from just, you know,

talking on the phone and being friends

to boyfriend and girlfriend?

And instead of saying, you know, like,

"Would you-- just can-- let's try this thing."

-Yeah. Yeah. -Boyfriend and girlfriend. I still can't even say it.

-I don't even know how to say it first. -Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's-- I was like, "Don't embarrass me."

-[laughing] -It's like, "Are you asking me

-to be your girlfriend?" -Wow.

And that was-- that is like-- that was my--

That was the only way I could get to being vulnerable.

-Yeah. -Like that. It was like,

-luckily for me, that she was able to see. -Yeah.

"Oh, you're struggling with this, let me--

let me help you out with it," you know?

'Cause that's a horrible, not engagement,

but that's a horrible proposal.

[both laughing]

And there's some beauty in it too.

It's some kinda like...

Well, she met you where you were.

Yeah. Exactly.

-Yeah. -Wow.

-That's real. -You know, that's real.

That's real.

And...

man, I didn't hear that song since I made it.

-Is that true? -Yeah.

-I didn't know that. -Yeah. So, this was like...

So raw, so honest,

-and just like... -It's unbelievable.

[Jay-Z muttering indistinctly]

A-And then you, like, the last verse,

you're dealing with your children

and the-- and the day

they're gonna hear this, they're gonna grow up.

-Absolutely. -And they're gonna hear this song

-and they're gonna know, like-- -Absolutely.

"I regret the day that the mask goes away

"and Santa Claus is fake.

"And you go online and see for Blue's tooth,

the tooth fairy didn't pay."

Like, the-- just the loss of innocence,

like, seeing their parents

as something other than their parents.

You-- growing up, your parents are superheroes.

-Yeah. -And then one day, you realize,

-"Who are my--" -They're people.

My parents are people, and they make mistakes,

and they're not perfect. And so, that feeling,

that loss of innocence is like what I was dealing with too.

Wow. When you say it, it's--

-Yeah. Yeah. -It's so heavy in the song.

And it's like...

But this is-- we love each other,

-and a soulmate. -Yeah, and you choose--

-And you choose it. -You choose-- we choose each other

and, like, you know, let's do it.

Let's-- let's heal it.

Let's heal this-- let's heal this pain

and let's be there for each other

and let's-- let's, um...

you know, I don't wanna say do it right

'cause there's no right, but let's--

Let's just-- Let's do the work, I guess.

Do you feel like there's been, uh, progress?

-Oh, yeah. Definitely. -Great. Great.

-Definitely. Yeah. -I hope so.

-Yeah. -I want you to be happy.

Yeah, thank you, yeah. Yeah.

[♪ "Blueprint 2 (Instrumental)" playing]