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1
00:00:15,417 --> 00:00:17,501
"Nerds."
"Geeks." "Sweaties."
2
00:00:17,709 --> 00:00:20,000
Look how far we've come.
We rule the world.
3
00:00:20,209 --> 00:00:21,542
But it wasn't always this way.
4
00:00:21,751 --> 00:00:22,584
Let's go back to a time
5
00:00:22,792 --> 00:00:25,459
when there was no comic book
cinematic universe,
6
00:00:25,667 --> 00:00:28,542
when you had to wait three years
to get a superhero movie,
7
00:00:28,751 --> 00:00:32,167
back to a time when Batman
used a credit card.
8
00:00:32,375 --> 00:00:35,250
This is a film about a superhero movie
that didn't get made.
9
00:00:35,459 --> 00:00:38,667
In 1998, a movie called "Superman Lives"
was in production.
10
00:00:38,876 --> 00:00:40,334
It was going to be directed
by Tim Burton
11
00:00:40,542 --> 00:00:42,334
and star Nicolas Cage as Superman.
12
00:00:42,542 --> 00:00:44,834
I've been fascinated with this
since I first heard about it.
13
00:00:45,042 --> 00:00:47,334
From the concept design
to the various scripts
14
00:00:47,542 --> 00:00:48,584
to the people involved,
15
00:00:48,792 --> 00:00:52,000
this would've been the most craziest,
cosmic Superman movie ever made.
16
00:00:52,209 --> 00:00:53,876
( crowd chattering )
17
00:00:55,042 --> 00:00:57,042
Schnepp: What do you think
the "Superman Lives" movie
18
00:00:57,250 --> 00:00:58,792
that Tim Burton and Nicolas Cage
were going to make,
19
00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:00,417
what do you think that movie
would've been like?
20
00:01:00,626 --> 00:01:03,000
Nicolas Cage is probably
21
00:01:03,209 --> 00:01:05,751
one of our generation's
definitive actors.
22
00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,292
I don't know if he'd be able
to pull it off or not.
23
00:01:08,501 --> 00:01:11,876
But it would've been interesting.
It's one of those "what ifs."
24
00:01:12,083 --> 00:01:13,876
I saw some of the artwork,
25
00:01:14,083 --> 00:01:15,792
and I just didn't--
It just didn't fly with me.
26
00:01:16,792 --> 00:01:19,501
There's nothing about his face
that fits, nothing about his voice
27
00:01:19,709 --> 00:01:22,626
that fits that deep Superman voice
that you can trust.
28
00:01:22,834 --> 00:01:25,167
It just seems kind of hilarious.
29
00:01:25,375 --> 00:01:27,459
I'm sorry, God. No.
30
00:01:27,667 --> 00:01:29,501
Nicolas Cage is a great actor,
31
00:01:29,709 --> 00:01:31,959
so I think he could've
played that really well.
32
00:01:32,167 --> 00:01:34,751
We all watched George Reeves
and I watched Christopher Reeve.
33
00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,959
I wasn't like,
"That's George Reeves. Chris Reeve."
34
00:01:38,167 --> 00:01:39,417
It was Superman.
35
00:01:39,626 --> 00:01:42,626
Nic Cage, he, like--
That's Nic Cage as Superman.
36
00:01:42,834 --> 00:01:44,083
Nic Cage would've been awesome.
37
00:01:44,292 --> 00:01:47,292
I mean, I-- Still one of my favorites is
"Wild at Heart" with him.
38
00:01:47,501 --> 00:01:49,792
I just figure that guy as Superman
would be awesome.
39
00:01:50,792 --> 00:01:52,876
The attempts to make
superhero movies in the '90s
40
00:01:53,083 --> 00:01:54,834
weren't particularly
successful, I felt.
41
00:01:55,042 --> 00:01:56,334
Dick Tracy did the same
42
00:01:56,542 --> 00:01:58,876
or the Joel Schumacher "Batman" movies
did the same,
43
00:01:59,083 --> 00:02:02,250
with the costumes super bright
and primary-colored,
44
00:02:02,459 --> 00:02:05,918
and the idea of trying to create
what a comic would look like on screen--
45
00:02:06,125 --> 00:02:07,876
Obviously, it would've been
interesting to see it.
46
00:02:08,083 --> 00:02:10,167
It'd be pretty weird to see Nicolas Cage
as Superman.
47
00:02:10,375 --> 00:02:13,459
"Superman Lives" was basically written
by three different screenwriters:
48
00:02:13,667 --> 00:02:16,501
Kevin Smith, Wesley Strick
and Dan Gilroy.
49
00:02:16,709 --> 00:02:19,042
All three scripts revolved
around the same story
50
00:02:19,250 --> 00:02:21,417
basically taken
from the comic book series,
51
00:02:21,626 --> 00:02:22,667
"The Death of Superman,"
52
00:02:22,876 --> 00:02:24,876
where Superman fought the villains
Lex Luthor,
53
00:02:25,083 --> 00:02:26,959
Brainiac,
and the killing machine, Doomsday.
54
00:02:27,167 --> 00:02:29,292
Doomsday killed Superman
in the comic books,
55
00:02:29,501 --> 00:02:32,292
and then he came back to life
using Kryptonian technology.
56
00:02:32,501 --> 00:02:34,542
This revitalized
the comic book series.
57
00:02:34,751 --> 00:02:36,542
Warner Brothers took their cue
from the comic books
58
00:02:36,751 --> 00:02:38,626
to revitalize
their movie franchise.
59
00:02:38,834 --> 00:02:41,209
On the set of "Superman Returns,"
60
00:02:41,417 --> 00:02:43,792
at any moment in Video Village,
61
00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,876
Bryan had sort of a little, like--
It was like a little binder.
62
00:02:48,083 --> 00:02:49,459
No one could really touch it.
63
00:02:49,667 --> 00:02:53,459
And inside he had this photograph
of Nicolas Cage
64
00:02:53,667 --> 00:02:56,667
from Tim Burton's
aborted version of "Superman."
65
00:02:56,876 --> 00:03:00,250
Oftentimes we'll be
in studio executive meetings,
66
00:03:00,459 --> 00:03:03,334
and people will bitch about the fact
that Brandon Routh's costume
67
00:03:03,542 --> 00:03:05,167
is so similar to the comics,
68
00:03:05,375 --> 00:03:08,125
that it has the underwear,
that it looks a little kitschy.
69
00:03:08,334 --> 00:03:11,209
And so, Bryan,
whenever that would happen in a meeting,
70
00:03:11,417 --> 00:03:14,709
would snap his fingers and have
his assistant pull out this photograph,
71
00:03:14,918 --> 00:03:15,918
and it would instantly
shut them up.
72
00:03:16,125 --> 00:03:18,334
He would reach over
to Video Village,
73
00:03:18,542 --> 00:03:20,626
pick up his book, and he would say,
"You know,
74
00:03:20,834 --> 00:03:23,709
you guys were gonna make this.
75
00:03:23,918 --> 00:03:26,167
We're not making this."
76
00:03:26,375 --> 00:03:28,834
Schnepp:
Sometimes the interest in the "what if"
77
00:03:29,042 --> 00:03:31,792
is stronger than
the actual final product
78
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,125
because it fills your mind
with the possibilities
79
00:03:34,334 --> 00:03:36,375
of what could've been.
80
00:03:37,375 --> 00:03:39,125
That's something that interested me
when I saw
81
00:03:39,334 --> 00:03:41,250
the concept art
for "Superman Lives."
82
00:03:41,459 --> 00:03:45,083
Amazing, strange designs,
cosmic ideas,
83
00:03:45,292 --> 00:03:48,626
creatures, aliens,
Superman with a strange metal "S."
84
00:03:48,834 --> 00:03:51,250
All these things interested me,
and I wanted to find out why
85
00:03:51,459 --> 00:03:52,584
it never got made.
86
00:03:55,083 --> 00:03:57,167
Morrison:
Imagine a distant planet
87
00:03:57,375 --> 00:03:59,751
in a far-off star system,
88
00:03:59,959 --> 00:04:01,959
light-years from here.
89
00:04:02,167 --> 00:04:04,792
We've never seen it in our telescopes,
we know nothing about them,
90
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:06,459
but they look a bit like us.
91
00:04:06,667 --> 00:04:09,209
A star in the last days
of its life,
92
00:04:09,417 --> 00:04:12,417
and imagine that their planet
is under threat of destruction,
93
00:04:12,626 --> 00:04:15,751
and those fantastic scientists say
there's only one thing they can do,
94
00:04:15,959 --> 00:04:18,417
and that's to send a child
out into space
95
00:04:18,626 --> 00:04:21,959
who might carry the physical attributes
and mental attributes
96
00:04:22,167 --> 00:04:24,834
of these people have engendered
over the centuries.
97
00:04:25,042 --> 00:04:28,292
And imagine then that this child
coming to Earth
98
00:04:28,501 --> 00:04:31,918
suddenly is gifted with powers
that come from a great society
99
00:04:32,125 --> 00:04:33,334
that it gave birth to,
100
00:04:33,542 --> 00:04:36,167
and he not only brings those powers
but he brings a morality.
101
00:04:36,375 --> 00:04:38,709
Just imagine what he could do
to our world
102
00:04:38,918 --> 00:04:42,000
with the aim of changing it
and making us better.
103
00:04:42,209 --> 00:04:45,083
( upbeat music plays )
104
00:06:00,542 --> 00:06:02,250
"Superman Lives--"
105
00:06:02,459 --> 00:06:04,292
or "Superman Reborn"
and then "Superman Lives"
106
00:06:04,501 --> 00:06:06,501
and then later
"Superman Returns,"
107
00:06:06,709 --> 00:06:08,501
was meant to be kind of, like,
108
00:06:08,709 --> 00:06:10,709
let's kick-start Superman again
109
00:06:10,918 --> 00:06:12,959
in a bit more earnest way.
110
00:06:13,167 --> 00:06:15,083
Not the spit-curl and wink
111
00:06:15,292 --> 00:06:17,584
of Chris Reeve and Dick Donner.
112
00:06:17,792 --> 00:06:19,501
They wanted a '90s version
of Superman,
113
00:06:19,709 --> 00:06:21,250
even though when I was writing,
114
00:06:21,459 --> 00:06:23,083
all I was writing was Chris Reeve.
115
00:06:23,292 --> 00:06:26,000
I thought Bryan Singer's version
forgot to put in--
116
00:06:26,209 --> 00:06:28,083
- Action?
- Yeah, like, fuckin'--
117
00:06:28,292 --> 00:06:30,042
He didn't get to punch anybody.
He punched an island.
118
00:06:30,250 --> 00:06:31,083
And then somebody pointed out,
119
00:06:31,292 --> 00:06:33,000
they're like, "Superman doesn't
get to punch everything
120
00:06:33,209 --> 00:06:34,918
every movie,"
and I thought about it
121
00:06:35,125 --> 00:06:36,626
and looked back, and sometimes
he didn't punch shit.
122
00:06:36,834 --> 00:06:39,626
He fought some video game-type things
in "Superman III."
123
00:06:39,834 --> 00:06:41,626
Fought good taste
in "Superman III."
124
00:06:41,834 --> 00:06:44,584
- Fought himself, remember?
- Turned purple and--
125
00:06:44,792 --> 00:06:46,667
Drinking whiskey,
burning the peanuts.
126
00:06:46,876 --> 00:06:50,125
Smith: I can see why Bryan Singer
was sucked into doing
127
00:06:50,334 --> 00:06:52,250
a quasi sequel to the Dick Donner
Superman movies.
128
00:06:52,459 --> 00:06:54,918
Those were our Superman movies.
They were so fucking magical.
129
00:06:55,125 --> 00:06:56,125
And they found a way to make them work
130
00:06:56,334 --> 00:06:57,834
where your parents could sit there
and be like,
131
00:06:58,042 --> 00:06:59,792
"Yeah, all right. He's fighting
General Zod. I get it."
132
00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,375
They're not like, "This is horseshit."
They're like, "I can get behind this."
133
00:07:03,584 --> 00:07:06,792
So, there's a pull to it
because it's the classic lore
134
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,334
and Dick Donner did
such a great job with it.
135
00:07:10,501 --> 00:07:13,918
Jon Peters: "Superman" was something
I had seen with Dick Donner and I loved,
136
00:07:14,125 --> 00:07:17,000
and I was mesmerized by it.
137
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,375
So that was the granddaddy
of all the superheroes.
138
00:07:21,584 --> 00:07:23,584
I've made over 100 movies,
139
00:07:23,792 --> 00:07:25,959
movies that I did
with Polygram Pictures
140
00:07:26,167 --> 00:07:28,959
and all the movies that we've produced
and everything.
141
00:07:29,167 --> 00:07:31,959
I was the chairman of Sony,
and I was leaving.
142
00:07:32,167 --> 00:07:33,959
Peter and I were splitting up.
143
00:07:34,167 --> 00:07:36,000
And they said to me,
"You're not going to believe this,
144
00:07:36,209 --> 00:07:38,709
but we think
Superman is available.
145
00:07:38,918 --> 00:07:42,876
So I got into negotiation
with the Salkinds and their lawyers
146
00:07:43,083 --> 00:07:45,459
because Warner Brothers
had not picked up the option.
147
00:07:45,667 --> 00:07:48,125
They didn't know that.
It was before computers.
148
00:07:48,334 --> 00:07:51,959
So they would have to send someone
in a back room, "bing, bing, bing,"
149
00:07:52,167 --> 00:07:53,918
going through these things that--
It's not on a computer--
150
00:07:54,125 --> 00:07:56,542
Would-- Would be normally red-flagged.
151
00:07:56,751 --> 00:07:59,209
I got a call from Terry Semel,
who was the head of Warner Brothers
152
00:07:59,417 --> 00:08:00,959
who said, "We want you
to come back to the studio."
153
00:08:01,167 --> 00:08:03,876
And I said, "I'm working on something
now which is really what I want to do."
154
00:08:04,083 --> 00:08:06,125
I had made "Batman."
And he said, "What?"
155
00:08:06,334 --> 00:08:08,626
And I said, "I think I bought
the rights to Superman.
156
00:08:08,834 --> 00:08:12,083
He said, "You idiot.
Warner Brothers owns it. I own it."
157
00:08:12,292 --> 00:08:14,417
I said, "No, you don't. Check."
158
00:08:14,626 --> 00:08:16,209
Came back and said,
"You're right. You do."
159
00:08:16,417 --> 00:08:19,584
Essentially, if you read my script
for "Superman Lives,"
160
00:08:19,792 --> 00:08:20,834
it's like fan fiction.
161
00:08:21,042 --> 00:08:24,209
It's-- It's-- And-- And, fuck,
I was so nascent in my career.
162
00:08:24,417 --> 00:08:27,542
I was 26 years old, 27 years old.
'96, '97.
163
00:08:27,751 --> 00:08:29,751
So, I sat down and met with
164
00:08:29,959 --> 00:08:31,959
a creative exec named Basil Iwanyk.
165
00:08:32,167 --> 00:08:35,626
He goes, "What would you think about
'Beetlejuice Goes Hawaiian?'"
166
00:08:35,834 --> 00:08:36,667
I said, "That exists?"
167
00:08:36,876 --> 00:08:39,167
He's like, "Yeah, we've been trying
to figure out 'Beetlejuice' for years."
168
00:08:39,375 --> 00:08:41,834
I was like, "What's to figure out?
Burton cracked the code."
169
00:08:42,042 --> 00:08:43,876
He goes, "Well, you know,
we've been working on--
170
00:08:44,083 --> 00:08:45,125
Trying-- Working a Superman."
171
00:08:45,334 --> 00:08:48,125
And I was like, "Superman?"
That was no part
172
00:08:48,334 --> 00:08:51,584
of the meeting that I was going in for,
it just came up in conversation.
173
00:08:51,792 --> 00:08:54,459
But he had given me
the Superman script to take home.
174
00:08:54,667 --> 00:08:57,667
And, oh, good Lord.
Terrible title from the jump.
175
00:08:57,876 --> 00:08:59,667
It might as well have just said:
176
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,959
It was just not the Superman movie
I ever would've imagined.
177
00:09:05,167 --> 00:09:07,542
There was a scene in it
I remember specifically where
178
00:09:07,751 --> 00:09:10,876
Clark Kent's going to a psychiatrist
and talking about
179
00:09:11,083 --> 00:09:13,667
having this
"I'm Superman" conversation,
180
00:09:13,876 --> 00:09:15,876
and the psychiatrist is like,
"No, you're not."
181
00:09:16,876 --> 00:09:18,334
This is something for a comic book fan,
182
00:09:18,542 --> 00:09:19,918
particularly at that time
and place in my life.
183
00:09:20,125 --> 00:09:23,626
I was like, "Oh, why don't you
just piss on the Gospels, fuck!
184
00:09:23,834 --> 00:09:27,584
Why don't you just make Jesus
do dick jokes? This is ridiculous!"
185
00:09:27,792 --> 00:09:30,417
Why not just reach out to the guys
who do the comic books?
186
00:09:30,626 --> 00:09:32,876
They would get it.
This guy don't get it.
187
00:09:33,083 --> 00:09:35,709
And he goes, "Yeah, but those guys
are comic book guys."
188
00:09:35,918 --> 00:09:39,626
I swear to you.
That was 1996 mentality.
189
00:09:39,834 --> 00:09:41,959
Get another call from my agent,
he goes,
190
00:09:42,167 --> 00:09:43,375
"You made it all the way
up the chain, dude.
191
00:09:43,584 --> 00:09:45,083
You're going to meet
with Lorenzo di Bonaventura,
192
00:09:45,292 --> 00:09:46,125
the head of Warner Brothers."
193
00:09:46,334 --> 00:09:47,459
I was like, "Really?"
194
00:09:47,667 --> 00:09:49,501
I was the executive
in charge of it
195
00:09:49,709 --> 00:09:51,501
for quite a period of time
at Warner Brothers.
196
00:09:51,709 --> 00:09:54,167
Jon Peters came
to Warners and said,
197
00:09:54,375 --> 00:09:57,459
"Listen, I think we can put
all these rights together."
198
00:09:57,667 --> 00:09:59,459
We put the rights together.
199
00:09:59,667 --> 00:10:01,876
Kevin Smith came in
with a really great take.
200
00:10:02,083 --> 00:10:04,459
Lorenzo was the first one
to ever say this
201
00:10:04,667 --> 00:10:05,459
of everyone I met with:
202
00:10:05,667 --> 00:10:08,334
He goes, "All right, what would you
do differently?"
203
00:10:08,542 --> 00:10:10,584
And I was like, "Oh. Well..."
204
00:10:10,792 --> 00:10:12,959
I changed the title.
It wasn't "Superman Reborn."
205
00:10:13,167 --> 00:10:14,876
I wanted to call it
"Superman Lives."
206
00:10:15,083 --> 00:10:16,459
I thought
that sounded cool,
207
00:10:16,667 --> 00:10:18,959
plus "Fletch Lives"
had always sounded cool to me.
208
00:10:19,167 --> 00:10:20,959
So I was like, "Let's borrow that
from "Fletch Lives,"
209
00:10:21,167 --> 00:10:22,209
call it 'Superman Lives.'"
210
00:10:22,417 --> 00:10:24,626
More of a, "Yeah, that's more than
Superman Reborn."
211
00:10:24,834 --> 00:10:27,542
Same idea, but to me,
a little bit better.
212
00:10:27,751 --> 00:10:29,959
He's going, "I want to send you over
to meet with Jon Peters."
213
00:10:30,167 --> 00:10:32,584
I know who he is, he's a producer,
you know, he's a producer
214
00:10:32,792 --> 00:10:35,209
with Peter Guber
of "Rain Man,"
215
00:10:35,417 --> 00:10:38,125
of 1989's "Batman," of course.
216
00:10:38,334 --> 00:10:41,542
His history is that
he was a hairdresser--
217
00:10:41,751 --> 00:10:44,751
A stylist, whatever--
I don't mean to diminish.
218
00:10:44,959 --> 00:10:47,334
He did hair, coifs,
whatever they're called.
219
00:10:47,542 --> 00:10:51,667
So, he was a hair man,
and he worked for Barbra Streisand.
220
00:10:51,876 --> 00:10:54,792
They would up being in a relationship
and stuff like that.
221
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,834
He wound up being a producer.
What an American dream.
222
00:10:58,042 --> 00:11:00,876
You go from hair-- Barbra Streisand's
hairdresser to producing "Batman."
223
00:11:01,083 --> 00:11:04,083
I don't think people get over the fact
that I started as a hairdresser.
224
00:11:04,292 --> 00:11:06,626
If I went to Harvard,
it would probably be less different.
225
00:11:06,834 --> 00:11:10,667
Jon Peters comes in: "I hear
you've got a take on 'Superman.'"
226
00:11:10,876 --> 00:11:11,709
And I was like, "Yeah, yeah."
227
00:11:11,918 --> 00:11:14,042
He's going, "Okay. Well, let me tell
you-- Let me hear it, let me hear it."
228
00:11:14,250 --> 00:11:15,709
Kevin came in.
229
00:11:16,876 --> 00:11:19,459
I felt free with him.
He was kind of an interesting character.
230
00:11:19,667 --> 00:11:21,918
We talked about
a lot of different things.
231
00:11:22,125 --> 00:11:26,459
He was such a nut,
and he had-- He was so animated,
232
00:11:26,667 --> 00:11:30,542
and he talked a great game,
that I trusted him.
233
00:11:30,751 --> 00:11:34,083
And he goes, "Okay.
Three things I want with this picture.
234
00:11:34,292 --> 00:11:36,584
"I'm gonna send you on your way,
do your thing, come back.
235
00:11:36,792 --> 00:11:38,792
Number one:
I don't want to see him fly."
236
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,375
I said, "Okay. Ever?"
237
00:11:40,584 --> 00:11:43,626
He goes, "No, I think it looks fake.
I hate all that flying shit,
238
00:11:43,834 --> 00:11:46,417
so I don't want to see him fly."
I said, "Okay."
239
00:11:46,626 --> 00:11:49,375
"Number two: I don't want
to see him in that suit."
240
00:11:49,584 --> 00:11:50,626
I was like, "Which suit?"
241
00:11:50,834 --> 00:11:52,626
And he's going, "That suit.
The suit he's always wearing."
242
00:11:52,834 --> 00:11:54,167
I was like, "The Superman suit
243
00:11:54,375 --> 00:11:56,042
with the cape and the blue
and red and yellow?"
244
00:11:56,250 --> 00:11:59,751
He goes, "Yeah, I don't like it."
His words, not mine: "Too faggy."
245
00:11:59,959 --> 00:12:01,876
I said, "Uh, all right."
246
00:12:02,083 --> 00:12:04,501
You gave him some notes and said,
"Three things I don't want:
247
00:12:04,709 --> 00:12:08,709
"I don't want him to fly,
I don't want him in that costume..."
248
00:12:08,918 --> 00:12:11,292
That's-- None of that's true.
None of that's true.
249
00:12:11,501 --> 00:12:13,542
Of course he has to fly.
He always flew.
250
00:12:13,751 --> 00:12:16,167
Superman you're talking about?
Of course he's in the co--
251
00:12:16,375 --> 00:12:18,167
None of those are true.
Is there a third?
252
00:12:18,375 --> 00:12:21,876
Smith: Number three is he has to fight
a giant spider in the third act.
253
00:12:22,083 --> 00:12:24,334
I said, "Okay-- Really?"
254
00:12:24,542 --> 00:12:27,834
- Then he has to fight a giant spider.
- That was a Thanagarian Snare Beast.
255
00:12:28,042 --> 00:12:29,584
"What is this based on?"
256
00:12:29,792 --> 00:12:31,876
He goes, "Well, do you know
anything about spiders?
257
00:12:32,083 --> 00:12:34,501
Spiders are the fiercest killers
in the animal kingdom.
258
00:12:34,709 --> 00:12:36,501
You've got to be careful
around spiders.
259
00:12:36,709 --> 00:12:39,250
So if you have a big one,
imagine how deadly they are.
260
00:12:39,459 --> 00:12:41,542
I'm looking for my moment
in this movie,
261
00:12:41,751 --> 00:12:44,250
like "King Kong" when I was a boy
and they opened the gates
262
00:12:44,459 --> 00:12:45,792
and you saw the giant monkeys."
263
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,501
Going, "I want to open up the gates,
and then you see
264
00:12:48,709 --> 00:12:50,834
this gigantic spider
coming at him.
265
00:12:51,042 --> 00:12:52,876
Superman's got to fight the spider.
It's a vision I have."
266
00:12:53,083 --> 00:12:56,209
I was like, "Okay, man,
I'll spider it up for you and stuff."
267
00:12:56,417 --> 00:12:58,000
If I remember correctly,
268
00:12:58,209 --> 00:13:00,709
I acted as the director
for a while
269
00:13:00,918 --> 00:13:04,709
by bringing in people and starting
some of my concepts on paper
270
00:13:04,918 --> 00:13:07,501
so that ultimately when I brought in Tim
or whoever we brought in,
271
00:13:07,709 --> 00:13:10,417
I could sit down and say,
"This is where we are, what we've done."
272
00:13:10,626 --> 00:13:13,626
Jon Peters wanted to convince
273
00:13:13,834 --> 00:13:17,209
the higher-ups to invest in a movie
274
00:13:17,417 --> 00:13:21,792
that is going to have
something other than
275
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,083
another guy in Spandex
fighting Superman.
276
00:13:25,292 --> 00:13:29,083
My initial job was to come up with
this big scary frickin' thing
277
00:13:29,292 --> 00:13:32,417
with a body kind of based on
a black widow
278
00:13:32,626 --> 00:13:35,334
but a face more like
a tarantula.
279
00:13:35,542 --> 00:13:38,292
And I threw in maybe
a little crab and stuff in there too.
280
00:13:38,501 --> 00:13:40,918
One of the illustrations was what--
281
00:13:41,125 --> 00:13:43,292
It was a Giger-esque kind of thing
282
00:13:43,501 --> 00:13:46,000
and it's what they called
the Opening of the Yanni,
283
00:13:46,209 --> 00:13:49,542
and all these little face-hugger
mini spiders
284
00:13:49,751 --> 00:13:52,918
are coming down
and covering Superman.
285
00:13:53,125 --> 00:13:54,792
He's not going up against
a super villain.
286
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,209
He's going up against
the Alien or the Predator
287
00:13:57,417 --> 00:13:59,792
or something that will
try and kill him
288
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,459
and maybe eat him
or lay eggs in his eyeballs.
289
00:14:03,667 --> 00:14:07,459
That to me is super cool,
'cause it takes it to a different level
290
00:14:07,667 --> 00:14:09,542
that we haven't seen before.
291
00:14:09,751 --> 00:14:11,375
This was all out of my mind.
292
00:14:11,584 --> 00:14:13,375
The Thanagarian Snare Beast,
293
00:14:13,584 --> 00:14:16,834
I stole it from Jules Verne's
20,000 Leagues Under the Sea.
294
00:14:17,042 --> 00:14:21,000
This giant squid who tries
to swallow up this submarine.
295
00:14:21,209 --> 00:14:24,542
- With the big, snapping squid--
- Giant nautilus, maybe.
296
00:14:24,751 --> 00:14:27,167
Yes. So Superman would fight
every tentacle,
297
00:14:27,375 --> 00:14:29,792
getting closer
and closer and closer
298
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,292
to this beak till he killed it.
299
00:14:32,501 --> 00:14:35,000
It would've made an amazing sequence!
Amazing!
300
00:14:35,209 --> 00:14:37,792
I had appeased Warner Brothers
by not calling it a spider.
301
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,292
- I called it a Thanagarian Snare Beast.
- Another Hawkman reference.
302
00:14:41,501 --> 00:14:44,083
A little Hawkman reference.
The planet Thanagar, something like--
303
00:14:44,292 --> 00:14:46,751
Just little things to throw in.
And the Warner Brothers execs were like,
304
00:14:46,959 --> 00:14:48,751
"As long as it doesn't say ‘spider,'
we don't give a shit.
305
00:14:48,959 --> 00:14:50,667
We know it's a spider.
Call it what you--
306
00:14:50,876 --> 00:14:52,792
I mean, ‘snare beast'? Come on."
307
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,918
What made you want to tell
the death of Superman?
308
00:14:55,125 --> 00:14:58,459
I love dramatic structures,
so the idea
309
00:14:58,667 --> 00:15:01,501
was
"The Death of Superman: Chaos Rules"
310
00:15:01,709 --> 00:15:05,167
really I knew could be amazing.
311
00:15:05,375 --> 00:15:07,167
I just felt it in my bones.
312
00:15:07,375 --> 00:15:10,042
They wanted to do
the "death of Superman" storyline
313
00:15:10,250 --> 00:15:13,417
that had been done very successfully
in the comics a few years before.
314
00:15:13,626 --> 00:15:15,876
"Death and return" storyline.
315
00:15:17,959 --> 00:15:20,334
Schnepp: It was 1993,
exactly seven years
316
00:15:20,542 --> 00:15:24,334
since the theatrical and critical bomb
"Superman IV: The Quest for Peace."
317
00:15:24,542 --> 00:15:26,626
"Superman" comics were just
not selling anymore,
318
00:15:26,834 --> 00:15:29,250
so D.C. Comics decided
to do the unimaginable
319
00:15:29,459 --> 00:15:31,375
and kill Superman.
320
00:15:32,959 --> 00:15:35,667
We had thought of doing
"The Death of Superman" before.
321
00:15:35,876 --> 00:15:38,584
We had sort of lightly kicked
the idea around,
322
00:15:38,792 --> 00:15:41,000
and it felt like this could be
the time to do it.
323
00:15:41,209 --> 00:15:43,918
My frustration in working
on the comic book was that
324
00:15:44,125 --> 00:15:46,459
he didn't seem to have
anybody he could have
325
00:15:46,667 --> 00:15:49,459
a knockdown, drag-out,
bash-'em-up,
326
00:15:49,667 --> 00:15:51,501
take-down-half-a-city
fight with.
327
00:15:51,709 --> 00:15:54,626
With Doomsday, we wanted
a creature and a villain
328
00:15:54,834 --> 00:15:57,959
that was not cerebral
in any way, shape, or form.
329
00:15:58,167 --> 00:16:01,584
We wanted him to be
a hurricane personified,
330
00:16:01,792 --> 00:16:04,167
a force of nature,
a raging beast,
331
00:16:04,375 --> 00:16:08,000
because that's something
that is very different than Superman.
332
00:16:08,209 --> 00:16:10,584
And that's what we wanted
Doomsday to be.
333
00:16:10,792 --> 00:16:12,876
It was one of those jobs
where I was just like,
334
00:16:13,083 --> 00:16:15,000
"Fuck it, write your dream movie,"
you know you what I'm saying?
335
00:16:15,209 --> 00:16:17,667
It's the dream job. Go crazy.
Because whoever's going to direct it
336
00:16:17,876 --> 00:16:19,959
is going to change anything
they don't like anyway.
337
00:16:20,167 --> 00:16:22,375
I had the Eradicator in there.
I had Cyborg Superman.
338
00:16:22,584 --> 00:16:25,250
Lex Luthor was in there,
Doomsday was in there.
339
00:16:25,459 --> 00:16:27,042
Brainiac was the villain.
It was packed.
340
00:16:27,250 --> 00:16:29,417
One of the things that
your script actually brought in
341
00:16:29,626 --> 00:16:31,959
that now everyone's doing
is the crossover.
342
00:16:32,167 --> 00:16:34,501
You actually had not only
a lot of different villains,
343
00:16:34,709 --> 00:16:37,375
like, Deadshot was in it,
but you also had Batman.
344
00:16:37,584 --> 00:16:39,542
That's right.
There was a sequence where
345
00:16:39,751 --> 00:16:42,209
it was during Superman's funeral,
very dramatic.
346
00:16:42,417 --> 00:16:44,083
It was clearly written by a Batman fan.
347
00:16:44,292 --> 00:16:45,667
It was almost the whole reason
I took the job
348
00:16:45,876 --> 00:16:47,918
was just to write this cameo.
349
00:16:48,125 --> 00:16:50,334
It's kind of like Times Square.
They got TVs everywhere.
350
00:16:50,542 --> 00:16:52,125
And then they all just go,
( imitates cha-chunk ).
351
00:16:52,334 --> 00:16:53,167
They've just taken over
352
00:16:53,375 --> 00:16:55,834
and there's a big bat symbol,
and then he comes on
353
00:16:56,042 --> 00:16:58,250
and gives them this
message of encouragement.
354
00:16:58,459 --> 00:17:00,751
Like, "People of Metropolis,
your hero has fallen."
355
00:17:00,959 --> 00:17:04,667
Like, real fucking, like, wank stuff
if you're a huge comic book nerd.
356
00:17:04,876 --> 00:17:07,000
Turn it in,
Lorenzo's like, "I like this."
357
00:17:07,209 --> 00:17:08,292
Basil's like, "I like this."
358
00:17:08,501 --> 00:17:11,167
And Jon, his people,
359
00:17:11,375 --> 00:17:14,542
like Tracy Barone, who was running
his company at that point, Tracy goes,
360
00:17:14,751 --> 00:17:18,584
"You're going to come over tomorrow
to have a meeting with Jon, right?"
361
00:17:18,792 --> 00:17:21,876
I said, "Talk about the script?"
She goes, "To read the script."
362
00:17:22,083 --> 00:17:24,375
And I go, "What do you mean,
‘Read the script'?"
363
00:17:24,584 --> 00:17:27,459
And she's going, "He likes to have
the script read to him out loud."
364
00:17:27,667 --> 00:17:29,250
And I was like,
"Get out of here, man.
365
00:17:29,459 --> 00:17:31,000
Do you want me to, like,
tuck him in after I'm done?"
366
00:17:31,209 --> 00:17:32,292
She's going, "I'm serious."
367
00:17:32,501 --> 00:17:33,876
First of all,
I'm not a good reader, number one.
368
00:17:34,083 --> 00:17:38,584
Number two, everyone sometimes
reads things differently.
369
00:17:38,792 --> 00:17:40,667
But you can-- When you see it,
370
00:17:40,876 --> 00:17:43,542
it's pretty much what you see.
371
00:17:43,751 --> 00:17:45,417
I said, "I understand I'm going
to read you a script."
372
00:17:45,626 --> 00:17:47,792
He's going,
"Totally. Let's do this, man."
373
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,125
He lays down on his couch,
tennis shorts on and stuff,
374
00:17:51,334 --> 00:17:54,042
and he's looking up at the ceiling,
and he goes like this.
375
00:17:54,250 --> 00:17:56,834
He was making director hands
as he was laying there,
376
00:17:57,042 --> 00:18:00,542
and this was the movie screen
that he was placing onto his ceiling
377
00:18:00,751 --> 00:18:03,959
so that as I was reading,
he was seeing it on a canvas.
378
00:18:04,167 --> 00:18:06,083
I'm a visual guy,
379
00:18:06,292 --> 00:18:10,667
so, I-- I...
Most things I do by visualization.
380
00:18:10,876 --> 00:18:13,584
Every script I ever get,
I have someone read it to me,
381
00:18:13,792 --> 00:18:16,125
and I just lay back and listen,
382
00:18:16,334 --> 00:18:18,959
and I run it on my screen
in my brain.
383
00:18:19,167 --> 00:18:21,959
And at one time he stops and goes,
"Oh, nothing's happening.
384
00:18:22,167 --> 00:18:24,501
"You've got Brainiac
coming to the Fortress of Solitude.
385
00:18:24,709 --> 00:18:26,209
There's no fight.
Where's the fight?
386
00:18:26,417 --> 00:18:28,209
Fuckin' have somebody
up there, man.
387
00:18:28,417 --> 00:18:31,876
Have him, like, Brainiac fighting
Superman's guards."
388
00:18:32,083 --> 00:18:35,375
And I go, "Well, it's called
the Fortress of Solitude."
389
00:18:35,584 --> 00:18:38,417
Like, nobody's fucking up there, dude.
He's alone.
390
00:18:38,626 --> 00:18:41,959
Plus, why would Superman need guards?
He's Superman, dude.
391
00:18:42,167 --> 00:18:43,083
Like, think about it.
392
00:18:43,292 --> 00:18:46,959
And he goes,
"Well, what about polar bears?"
393
00:18:47,167 --> 00:18:49,000
And I go, "Polar bears?"
394
00:18:49,209 --> 00:18:51,167
And he goes,
"Polar bears are the fiercest killers
395
00:18:51,375 --> 00:18:52,375
in the animal kingdom."
396
00:18:52,584 --> 00:18:54,876
I'm sure there were 50 other ideas
we could've come up with,
397
00:18:55,083 --> 00:18:57,501
but at the time,
we wanted to animate those things
398
00:18:57,709 --> 00:19:00,834
or whatever we created
as something he could fight.
399
00:19:01,042 --> 00:19:03,834
And there's nothing
more ferocious
400
00:19:04,042 --> 00:19:07,209
than a 3,000-pound giant,
401
00:19:07,417 --> 00:19:10,083
12-foot, 15-foot polar bear.
402
00:19:10,292 --> 00:19:12,083
I remember reading a version--
I don't know if you're--
403
00:19:12,292 --> 00:19:14,417
There's two drafts that are--
Of yours that are online--
404
00:19:14,626 --> 00:19:17,834
There's one has Brainiac going
to the Fortress of Solitude,
405
00:19:18,042 --> 00:19:19,959
and there's two polar bears that--
Who see him--
406
00:19:20,167 --> 00:19:21,626
- Smith: Right.
- ( snarls )
407
00:19:21,834 --> 00:19:23,834
Schnepp: And I was like,
"Are they the guards,
408
00:19:24,042 --> 00:19:25,584
and he fucks one up...
409
00:19:27,501 --> 00:19:30,834
- and the other one scamps away?
- ( cries out )
410
00:19:31,042 --> 00:19:32,834
- That's it.
- Okay, but then
411
00:19:33,042 --> 00:19:35,042
this one that I was reading
earlier this week,
412
00:19:35,250 --> 00:19:38,417
that has the polar bears
just as statues outside.
413
00:19:38,626 --> 00:19:40,959
Because I was reading,
I was like, "Am I tripping?"
414
00:19:41,167 --> 00:19:42,918
So I was combing through it,
trying to find--
415
00:19:43,125 --> 00:19:45,751
But I think it was-- I don't know if
it was Tom Lassally or Lorenzo going,
416
00:19:45,959 --> 00:19:47,459
"Why is Brainiac killing an animal?"
417
00:19:47,667 --> 00:19:50,417
And I was like, "Because Jon thought
that he needed to fight
418
00:19:50,626 --> 00:19:52,459
Superman's guards
up at the Fortress of Solitude."
419
00:19:52,667 --> 00:19:54,292
Lorenzo's like,
"Why would Superman need guards?"
420
00:19:54,501 --> 00:19:56,626
I was like, "I know, right?
But whatever."
421
00:19:56,834 --> 00:19:59,834
Who else was on your plate
for directing the Superman film?
422
00:20:00,042 --> 00:20:01,876
Tim Burton was
my number-one choice.
423
00:20:02,083 --> 00:20:04,584
And obviously,
I didn't want to make a "Superman"
424
00:20:04,792 --> 00:20:07,709
that anybody else had made,
and I really wanted to run Superman
425
00:20:07,918 --> 00:20:09,375
through his brain.
426
00:20:09,584 --> 00:20:11,167
And they were like,
"Who do you see as director?"
427
00:20:11,375 --> 00:20:12,375
And I was like, "Tim Burton."
428
00:20:12,584 --> 00:20:13,667
Look what he did for "Batman."
429
00:20:13,876 --> 00:20:15,375
I know this is a fundamental
different character,
430
00:20:15,584 --> 00:20:16,959
but it's Tim Burton.
431
00:20:17,167 --> 00:20:18,000
You can't go wrong.
432
00:20:18,209 --> 00:20:20,792
If you're going to bring a superhero
back to the big screen,
433
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:21,959
you tap him again.
434
00:20:22,167 --> 00:20:24,876
I had no idea when I said that
I was just signing my own
435
00:20:25,083 --> 00:20:27,292
"You're fucking fired, fat boy"
warrant.
436
00:20:27,501 --> 00:20:29,751
- Kevin handed in his draft...
- Right.
437
00:20:29,959 --> 00:20:32,209
I called him,
and it just was no good.
438
00:20:32,417 --> 00:20:35,000
It wasn't funny.
It wasn't-- it had no structure to it.
439
00:20:35,209 --> 00:20:36,709
It was just unimaginative.
440
00:20:36,918 --> 00:20:38,709
He was an amateur writer.
441
00:20:38,918 --> 00:20:41,125
He wasn't a crafted writer.
442
00:20:47,042 --> 00:20:48,375
Schnepp:
What were your major influences,
443
00:20:48,584 --> 00:20:49,792
like, what were your favorite characters
444
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:51,709
when you were a kid,
started growing up?
445
00:20:51,918 --> 00:20:54,792
Tim Burton: I loved movies,
mainly monster movies
446
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,834
and Ray Harryhausen movies,
447
00:20:58,042 --> 00:21:00,584
but I guess the genre that--
You know,
448
00:21:00,792 --> 00:21:03,209
horror movies, monster movies,
science fiction films.
449
00:21:03,417 --> 00:21:05,709
I think my favorite--
450
00:21:05,918 --> 00:21:08,834
My favorite comic character
was Batman.
451
00:21:09,042 --> 00:21:11,167
Just getting into sort of psychology
452
00:21:11,375 --> 00:21:13,334
of the superhero--
453
00:21:13,542 --> 00:21:16,417
That was, at that time,
sort of new territory,
454
00:21:16,626 --> 00:21:19,000
and so when I got involved
with "Superman,"
455
00:21:19,209 --> 00:21:21,876
it was just a different
sort of, you know,
456
00:21:22,083 --> 00:21:24,375
sort of exploration of
that kind of feeling
457
00:21:24,584 --> 00:21:28,167
of being different
and feeling like
458
00:21:28,375 --> 00:21:30,417
somebody from another planet.
459
00:21:30,626 --> 00:21:33,125
Those kinds of themes
were always quite strong
460
00:21:33,334 --> 00:21:36,167
in old monster movies
and in some of the comic books.
461
00:21:36,375 --> 00:21:38,876
The graphic novel came into play,
462
00:21:39,083 --> 00:21:42,250
and the sort of psychology
of the characters.
463
00:21:42,459 --> 00:21:44,584
Obviously,
a lot of comic book characters
464
00:21:44,792 --> 00:21:47,417
fit into that kind of mythology
of somebody
465
00:21:47,626 --> 00:21:50,667
who doesn't fit in,
doesn't belong.
466
00:21:50,876 --> 00:21:54,542
That sort of exploration of
feeling like an alien on a planet
467
00:21:54,751 --> 00:21:57,167
and being different
and having to sort of
468
00:21:57,375 --> 00:21:59,167
hide yourself in some ways
469
00:21:59,375 --> 00:22:01,417
and suppress certain sides
of yourself,
470
00:22:01,626 --> 00:22:04,667
and the sort of secretive nature
471
00:22:04,876 --> 00:22:08,000
of that kind of a character.
472
00:22:08,209 --> 00:22:10,334
So that, I think,
was the thing that was--
473
00:22:10,542 --> 00:22:13,125
the root of it
was the most interesting.
474
00:22:13,334 --> 00:22:15,459
Hearing Tim's inspiration
for the character
475
00:22:15,667 --> 00:22:17,209
was a great moment
476
00:22:17,417 --> 00:22:19,876
where you were like,
"Oh, God."
477
00:22:20,083 --> 00:22:21,959
In a way, it's so obvious,
but of course
478
00:22:22,167 --> 00:22:24,375
the best ideas are not
that easy to get to.
479
00:22:24,584 --> 00:22:26,292
When you give him
the Thanagarian snare beast
480
00:22:26,501 --> 00:22:29,042
with all these characters,
Tim Burton goes to work.
481
00:22:29,250 --> 00:22:33,167
He is such a visualist
that he makes things happen
482
00:22:33,375 --> 00:22:35,667
through his mind, you know,
483
00:22:35,876 --> 00:22:38,375
that sometimes are not
even on the page.
484
00:22:38,584 --> 00:22:40,918
There was a little school
called Cal Arts
485
00:22:41,125 --> 00:22:42,918
that all of us guys were at
486
00:22:43,125 --> 00:22:44,667
way back in the late '70s.
487
00:22:44,876 --> 00:22:45,834
It was at Disney
488
00:22:46,042 --> 00:22:47,709
that we all went to
following that,
489
00:22:47,918 --> 00:22:49,792
and Tim and I started
to work together there.
490
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,167
Another project
that Tim and I worked on together
491
00:22:52,375 --> 00:22:55,792
was an experiment with
stop-motion animation for which
492
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,959
I took Tim's designs
and created puppets
493
00:22:59,167 --> 00:23:00,751
and three-dimensional sets.
494
00:23:00,959 --> 00:23:03,626
It's basically the story
of a little boy
495
00:23:03,834 --> 00:23:05,876
who thinks
that he's Vincent Price.
496
00:23:06,083 --> 00:23:08,792
Heinrichs: I was just finishing up
"The Big Lebowski" for the Coen brothers
497
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,125
and got the call
from the line producer.
498
00:23:11,334 --> 00:23:13,584
It sounded like
a really great idea.
499
00:23:13,792 --> 00:23:15,792
It was gonna be a somewhat
different take on the--
500
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,083
on the myth of Superman.
501
00:23:17,292 --> 00:23:18,876
I had worked with other
great artists--
502
00:23:19,083 --> 00:23:21,959
those are guys that I-- that had been
part of the Hollywood scene.
503
00:23:22,167 --> 00:23:24,501
The day before I got the call
to do this show,
504
00:23:24,709 --> 00:23:28,918
I had just signed on to do
the first "Matrix."
505
00:23:29,125 --> 00:23:32,375
Then had to quit that the next day
because I got the call from Tim.
506
00:23:32,584 --> 00:23:35,334
So I just immediately quit and said,
"No, I'm going to do 'Superman'."
507
00:23:35,542 --> 00:23:37,083
I'd already done
two shows for Tim.
508
00:23:37,292 --> 00:23:39,042
I'd done "Batman Returns"
and "Mars Attacks!"
509
00:23:39,250 --> 00:23:40,667
Pete Von Sholly was there
510
00:23:40,876 --> 00:23:42,834
doing monster
and creature designs.
511
00:23:43,042 --> 00:23:46,000
Michael Jackson, the storyboard artist,
gave my name to Rick Heinrichs
512
00:23:46,209 --> 00:23:47,959
because they needed
a bunch of monsters
513
00:23:48,167 --> 00:23:49,375
for Brainiac's zoo.
514
00:23:49,584 --> 00:23:50,584
He and I worked for a few weeks
515
00:23:50,792 --> 00:23:53,584
and just filled a wall
with monsters.
516
00:23:53,792 --> 00:23:56,209
Sylvain was great
because he-- he had
517
00:23:56,417 --> 00:23:58,792
that Moebius kind of feel
to his work-- he's French.
518
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,834
He worked with and knew Moebius.
519
00:24:01,042 --> 00:24:04,334
I remember asking Rick,
"Are you sure I'm the right person?"
520
00:24:04,542 --> 00:24:06,501
'Cause I grew up in Europe.
521
00:24:06,709 --> 00:24:09,375
My style as an illustrator
when I was doing that work
522
00:24:09,584 --> 00:24:11,709
was mostly European.
523
00:24:11,918 --> 00:24:13,959
I don't have any connection
524
00:24:14,167 --> 00:24:18,125
with the American superhero
comic book mindset.
525
00:24:18,334 --> 00:24:20,542
But Rick said,
"No, that's precisely what we want."
526
00:24:20,751 --> 00:24:23,542
He said, "We've already got the guys
who come from comics,
527
00:24:23,751 --> 00:24:25,918
and we want to diversify a little bit.
528
00:24:26,125 --> 00:24:28,250
We want to see what somebody
who comes from Europe
529
00:24:28,459 --> 00:24:30,792
with a completely different take
can give us."
530
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,876
So I joined the crew, and, uh...
531
00:24:35,626 --> 00:24:37,626
- and entered hell.
- Mm.
532
00:24:37,834 --> 00:24:40,292
Veteran illustrator Jack Johnson
533
00:24:40,501 --> 00:24:42,918
was doing Greek wash paintings
for the production.
534
00:24:43,125 --> 00:24:46,459
Jacques Rey doing lots of beautiful
concept design.
535
00:24:46,667 --> 00:24:47,959
Jim Carson was there.
536
00:24:48,167 --> 00:24:51,250
We all worked together.
Most of us worked in a bullpen.
537
00:24:51,459 --> 00:24:54,501
I don't know.
There was, ah, four or five of us.
538
00:24:54,709 --> 00:24:57,667
There was myself,
there was Jacques Rey,
539
00:24:57,876 --> 00:24:59,834
Harold Belker.
540
00:25:00,042 --> 00:25:02,667
Harold usually does
I.D. design, vehicle design,
541
00:25:02,876 --> 00:25:04,792
so it would've been
something of that nature.
542
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:05,918
What about Boes?
543
00:25:06,125 --> 00:25:08,626
Boes was in and out.
He had an office down the hall.
544
00:25:08,834 --> 00:25:10,459
Well, Rick Heinrichs,
who we got to know
545
00:25:10,667 --> 00:25:12,626
really well on
"Nightmare Before Christmas."
546
00:25:12,834 --> 00:25:15,501
He promoted me to be
the assistant art director on that show,
547
00:25:15,709 --> 00:25:19,209
and then I moved to L.A.
to sort of start my Hollywood career.
548
00:25:19,417 --> 00:25:21,250
Working on a movie lot--
you know, I'm from San Francisco,
549
00:25:21,459 --> 00:25:22,584
and this was like
a big deal for me.
550
00:25:22,792 --> 00:25:24,751
It was a really great moment
in my life.
551
00:25:24,959 --> 00:25:27,250
Stage 15 has an office upstairs,
552
00:25:27,459 --> 00:25:29,292
and at the beginning
of Warner Brothers--
553
00:25:29,501 --> 00:25:30,751
the logo,
you know the logo?
554
00:25:30,959 --> 00:25:31,959
It shows that moment.
555
00:25:32,167 --> 00:25:33,834
It shows stage 15--
that balcony--
556
00:25:34,042 --> 00:25:35,250
so it's something
that I always remember.
557
00:25:35,459 --> 00:25:37,918
Every time I watch a
Warner Brothers movie, I'm just like,
558
00:25:38,125 --> 00:25:40,000
"That's where we did
'Superman Lives.'"
559
00:25:41,417 --> 00:25:43,334
I'm more of a nuts-and-bolts
kind of guy.
560
00:25:43,542 --> 00:25:46,292
I mean, I, you know,
kind of run the operation.
561
00:25:46,501 --> 00:25:48,918
I make sure that the crew
is there, hired,
562
00:25:49,125 --> 00:25:51,626
that we're moving along
at a good pace.
563
00:25:51,834 --> 00:25:53,751
You know, I got a little bit involved
in more of the creative on this
564
00:25:53,959 --> 00:25:56,542
because we had a lot of R & D
going on with graphics
565
00:25:56,751 --> 00:25:59,209
and also all the visuals
that we were gonna do.
566
00:25:59,417 --> 00:26:01,250
I guess this was the late '90s,
567
00:26:01,459 --> 00:26:03,250
and we were doing
a lot of things at that time.
568
00:26:03,459 --> 00:26:06,125
I mean, the business was absolutely
exploding, in its prime.
569
00:26:06,334 --> 00:26:08,250
Yeah, this was the kind
of that genesis of when
570
00:26:08,459 --> 00:26:10,667
production companies
were getting savvy to the fact
571
00:26:10,876 --> 00:26:13,083
that they could get the best price
and the best quality work
572
00:26:13,292 --> 00:26:14,459
out of companies like my own
573
00:26:14,667 --> 00:26:16,584
by pitting three or four companies
against each other
574
00:26:16,792 --> 00:26:18,667
and basically
creating a contest.
575
00:26:18,876 --> 00:26:21,501
They said, "Show us this crazy,
whacked-out"--
576
00:26:21,709 --> 00:26:23,209
with notes from Tim--
577
00:26:23,417 --> 00:26:26,709
the wildest, most iridescent
soap-bubble
578
00:26:26,918 --> 00:26:28,709
light-up-Las-Vegas-sign arm
579
00:26:28,918 --> 00:26:30,501
as a test, as a prototype,
580
00:26:30,709 --> 00:26:32,083
and you could make a couple
if you want.
581
00:26:32,292 --> 00:26:33,501
And so we worked and worked
and worked
582
00:26:33,709 --> 00:26:35,083
and came up with a couple
of these prototypes.
583
00:26:35,292 --> 00:26:37,709
I believe we did three.
They said, "Wow, this stuff's great.
584
00:26:37,918 --> 00:26:39,167
Nobody else came close
to what you're doing.
585
00:26:39,375 --> 00:26:41,209
Tim loves 'em. Let's go.
Let's take the next step."
586
00:26:41,417 --> 00:26:43,292
I'm like, "Well, I don't even know
what we're building.
587
00:26:43,501 --> 00:26:44,459
What's the next step?"
588
00:26:44,667 --> 00:26:46,125
Number one, we had worked with
Colleen Atwood the--
589
00:26:46,334 --> 00:26:48,125
who always does Tim's stuff
as a wardrobe designer.
590
00:26:48,334 --> 00:26:49,375
She's pretty amazing.
591
00:26:49,584 --> 00:26:52,125
I met Tim on
"Edward Scissorhands,"
592
00:26:52,334 --> 00:26:54,375
which was my first collaboration
with him.
593
00:26:54,584 --> 00:26:57,375
You know, we just hit it off
and we had a good run on that.
594
00:26:57,584 --> 00:26:59,792
And then when "Superman" came up,
it was, you know,
595
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,584
a different kind of movie
for me at the time to do.
596
00:27:02,792 --> 00:27:04,626
I hadn't ever done any kind of
597
00:27:04,834 --> 00:27:08,501
big, kind of, superhero-y
sort of things at all.
598
00:27:08,709 --> 00:27:11,459
With Tim, you always start,
you know, with, like what his--
599
00:27:11,667 --> 00:27:12,751
who he thinks the people are,
600
00:27:12,959 --> 00:27:15,667
like his sort of take on it,
which is always unique
601
00:27:15,876 --> 00:27:18,584
and what makes him Tim
and special, I think.
602
00:27:18,792 --> 00:27:20,667
And his take on "Superman"
was, you know,
603
00:27:20,876 --> 00:27:22,876
was a new kind
of version of it.
604
00:27:23,083 --> 00:27:26,000
He didn't want to go with
the sort of Mr. Clean version.
605
00:27:26,209 --> 00:27:29,083
He wanted to go with kind of this
unnoticed kind of person.
606
00:27:29,292 --> 00:27:33,000
But with Tim, you see this
recurring theme of the outsider
607
00:27:33,209 --> 00:27:35,167
in a lot of his films.
608
00:27:35,375 --> 00:27:38,417
He's interested in characters
who kind of
609
00:27:38,626 --> 00:27:42,209
carry this extraordinary capability
or gift of some kind--
610
00:27:42,417 --> 00:27:43,834
you'll see this
in a lot of his films--
611
00:27:44,042 --> 00:27:46,584
and how that character interacts
with the outside world.
612
00:27:46,792 --> 00:27:48,083
They don't often connect well.
613
00:27:48,292 --> 00:27:49,959
Part of them needs to stay hidden
614
00:27:50,167 --> 00:27:52,167
because if you were to reveal
their real self,
615
00:27:52,375 --> 00:27:55,417
it would be calamitous
for that character.
616
00:27:55,626 --> 00:27:58,209
Schnepp: Batman also had
like a secondary role.
617
00:27:58,417 --> 00:28:00,501
He was Bruce Wayne,
and then he was Batman,
618
00:28:00,709 --> 00:28:03,042
with the Superman character,
there was Clark Kent.
619
00:28:03,250 --> 00:28:05,250
What was your take on Clark Kent?
620
00:28:05,459 --> 00:28:07,417
Well, it-- you know,
it's like you said,
621
00:28:07,626 --> 00:28:09,250
it's slightly similar,
but this is on a much grander,
622
00:28:09,459 --> 00:28:12,709
you know, this is like
on a global scale, in a way,
623
00:28:12,918 --> 00:28:13,959
in the sense
of having to hide.
624
00:28:14,167 --> 00:28:17,584
And, uh, you always try to put
your personal feelings into it.
625
00:28:17,792 --> 00:28:19,584
And I always felt like I was an alien.
626
00:28:19,792 --> 00:28:22,292
So I think a lot of people do
and a lot of kids do.
627
00:28:22,501 --> 00:28:25,167
So that very simple
through my...
628
00:28:25,375 --> 00:28:29,125
that was probably
the core thing, in a way.
629
00:28:29,334 --> 00:28:30,667
That for me was, I think,
630
00:28:30,876 --> 00:28:33,751
the main thing
that interested me.
631
00:28:33,959 --> 00:28:35,918
All of us feel like aliens.
632
00:28:36,125 --> 00:28:38,167
Nobody is comfortable
in their own skin
633
00:28:38,375 --> 00:28:39,417
all of the time,
634
00:28:39,626 --> 00:28:41,834
and we all feel that darkness.
635
00:28:42,042 --> 00:28:44,626
And I wanted him to be able
to talk about that darkness
636
00:28:44,834 --> 00:28:46,959
in a way that would be
interesting for the audience.
637
00:28:47,167 --> 00:28:50,000
I think the humanizing of Superman
was what I would look at
638
00:28:50,209 --> 00:28:52,542
as sort of
Tim's approach to him
639
00:28:52,751 --> 00:28:55,501
that made me really get excited,
made Warners get excited.
640
00:28:55,709 --> 00:28:57,542
I remember I was in
Hartford, Connecticut,
641
00:28:57,751 --> 00:29:00,125
doing press for "Chasing Amy."
642
00:29:00,334 --> 00:29:02,501
I got the phone call.
"They just brought on Tim Burton."
643
00:29:02,709 --> 00:29:04,834
I was like, "So, do you think
I get to stay on for the whole show?"
644
00:29:05,042 --> 00:29:06,417
He goes, "Oh, no, you're done."
645
00:29:06,626 --> 00:29:08,459
Tim Burton came on and goes,
"I don't want to do this script.
646
00:29:08,667 --> 00:29:10,125
I want to do my version
of 'Superman.'"
647
00:29:10,334 --> 00:29:11,626
And so I guess--
I don't know
648
00:29:11,834 --> 00:29:13,501
who the screenwriter was,
maybe Wesley Strick.
649
00:29:13,709 --> 00:29:15,459
I got involved
because I had worked with Tim
650
00:29:15,667 --> 00:29:18,542
on "Batman Returns"
about six years earlier.
651
00:29:18,751 --> 00:29:20,334
I ended up staying
for the whole shoot
652
00:29:20,542 --> 00:29:22,667
because he felt like
he needed a writer
653
00:29:22,876 --> 00:29:24,334
at his side through the process.
654
00:29:24,542 --> 00:29:27,959
I remember him sort of complaining
about making superhero movies.
655
00:29:28,167 --> 00:29:30,375
He compared it to
Chinese water torture.
656
00:29:30,584 --> 00:29:34,292
I asked him, "If you hate it so much,
why are you doing the sequel?"
657
00:29:34,501 --> 00:29:37,501
And he said, "'Cause I think I learned
a lot doing the first 'Batman' movie,
658
00:29:37,709 --> 00:29:40,417
and I want a second movie in which
I can put to use everything I learned"
659
00:29:40,626 --> 00:29:43,876
and sort of undo the mistakes
he felt he had made in the first one.
660
00:29:44,083 --> 00:29:45,626
I knew that there was
a Kevin Smith script.
661
00:29:45,834 --> 00:29:49,000
I read it without any
preconceived idea about it.
662
00:29:49,209 --> 00:29:51,334
But as I read it,
there was a lot about it I didn't--
663
00:29:51,542 --> 00:29:53,501
it wasn't sort of clicking with me.
664
00:29:53,709 --> 00:29:56,792
It's 'cause I'm not a sort of
Superman fanboy.
665
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,334
'Cause I hadn't read any of
the "Death of Superman" graphic novels,
666
00:30:00,542 --> 00:30:02,626
so I wasn't up to speed
with all that stuff.
667
00:30:02,834 --> 00:30:05,042
I was just sort of curious
what Tim's take on it was.
668
00:30:05,250 --> 00:30:09,000
So we met-- I remember we met at the
Chateau Marmont in the lobby there,
669
00:30:09,209 --> 00:30:11,667
and I said, um, "So, Tim,
I read the Kevin Smith script,"
670
00:30:11,876 --> 00:30:13,667
and before I was finished
with my sentence, he said,
671
00:30:13,876 --> 00:30:15,292
"I don't want to talk
about that script."
672
00:30:15,501 --> 00:30:17,042
I was like, "Okay.
673
00:30:17,250 --> 00:30:18,876
So, what do you want to--
like, what do you wanna do?"
674
00:30:19,083 --> 00:30:20,292
And he wasn't sure.
675
00:30:20,501 --> 00:30:23,250
We also were told by Warners
there were aspects of Kevin's plot,
676
00:30:23,459 --> 00:30:25,834
if not his script per se,
that they wanted to keep intact.
677
00:30:26,042 --> 00:30:28,417
Obviously, it was-- it was still based
on "The Death of Superman,"
678
00:30:28,626 --> 00:30:30,375
to some extent.
679
00:30:30,584 --> 00:30:31,876
Jon Peters
was very much involved
680
00:30:32,083 --> 00:30:34,042
right from the get-go,
and Tim was,
681
00:30:34,250 --> 00:30:35,626
I think, really ambivalent
about that, too.
682
00:30:35,834 --> 00:30:39,792
He had-- he had already had a sort of
bad experience with Peters on "Batman"
683
00:30:40,501 --> 00:30:42,125
and told me that the reason
he went to London to film it
684
00:30:42,334 --> 00:30:43,626
was to get away from Peters.
685
00:30:43,834 --> 00:30:46,501
And now he was making this movie--
the "Superman" movie in L.A.
686
00:30:46,709 --> 00:30:48,542
in the same city as Jon,
and he was a little--
687
00:30:48,751 --> 00:30:49,959
already uptight about it.
688
00:30:50,167 --> 00:30:52,042
I think he'd kind of--
could see the future.
689
00:30:52,250 --> 00:30:53,667
Jon is a force of nature,
690
00:30:53,876 --> 00:30:56,292
and he's passionate about things,
and that's, I think,
691
00:30:56,501 --> 00:30:59,292
where that sometimes,
where it becomes, you know, the problem.
692
00:30:59,501 --> 00:31:02,125
You know,
it's-- it's-- it's-- it's...
693
00:31:02,334 --> 00:31:04,292
it's like trying to control
the weather, you know?
694
00:31:04,501 --> 00:31:07,918
It's-- it's not--
it's kind of not...
695
00:31:08,125 --> 00:31:09,250
can't really do it.
696
00:31:09,459 --> 00:31:11,751
You have to, you know,
even though you're the producer,
697
00:31:11,959 --> 00:31:15,918
people just get mad at me--
I'm controlling, overbearing,
698
00:31:16,125 --> 00:31:17,709
a force of nature,
all these crazy things--
699
00:31:17,918 --> 00:31:20,584
only because it takes
tremendous energy
700
00:31:20,792 --> 00:31:23,501
to move most people
who say it can't be done,
701
00:31:23,709 --> 00:31:25,250
and most people
have no energy,
702
00:31:25,459 --> 00:31:28,000
into being able to see the same vision
and then get the money to do it.
703
00:31:28,209 --> 00:31:30,709
What Tim and I always discussed
704
00:31:30,918 --> 00:31:34,334
vis-Ã -vis "Superman" versus "Batman"
was that "Superman"
705
00:31:34,542 --> 00:31:37,584
takes place in daylight,
in sunlight.
706
00:31:37,792 --> 00:31:39,250
Batman was--
came out at night.
707
00:31:39,459 --> 00:31:40,792
I mean,
that was sort of the--
708
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,709
the real sort of yin-yang
of the two characters.
709
00:31:43,918 --> 00:31:46,250
And Tim was excited about doing it,
'cause I think he felt
710
00:31:46,459 --> 00:31:49,459
that a lot of his movies were, sort of,
movies made in the shadows
711
00:31:49,667 --> 00:31:50,751
- and darkness...
- Right.
712
00:31:50,959 --> 00:31:52,959
...and all of that and he--
I think he wanted to challenge himself
713
00:31:53,167 --> 00:31:55,459
to see if he could make a movie
that was brighter, sunnier,
714
00:31:55,667 --> 00:31:58,250
maybe a little more optimistic
than what he was accustomed to doing.
715
00:31:58,459 --> 00:32:01,584
Schnepp:
So you basically changed Batman.
716
00:32:01,792 --> 00:32:03,667
You were the one
who came in and said,
717
00:32:03,876 --> 00:32:05,667
"We're gonna get Batman
a brand-new look."
718
00:32:05,876 --> 00:32:07,709
We didn't really have the Internet
back in 1988,
719
00:32:07,918 --> 00:32:09,501
when you were shooting this,
720
00:32:09,709 --> 00:32:11,792
so the grumbling whiners
and complainers
721
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,083
didn't get a chance to attack
722
00:32:14,292 --> 00:32:16,501
as hard as they do nowadays.
723
00:32:16,709 --> 00:32:18,250
Where I just related
to people like, you know,
724
00:32:18,459 --> 00:32:20,542
Nicolas Cage as Superman,
what a weird choice.
725
00:32:20,751 --> 00:32:23,250
Or the same could be said
or Michael Keaton.
726
00:32:23,459 --> 00:32:25,125
But that-- you know,
luckily, you're right.
727
00:32:25,334 --> 00:32:26,417
It was before the Internet.
728
00:32:26,626 --> 00:32:28,417
But there definitely was...
729
00:32:28,626 --> 00:32:31,834
I luckily was here in England,
but I know that--
730
00:32:32,042 --> 00:32:33,626
I had heard
there was a huge backlash
731
00:32:33,834 --> 00:32:36,792
to that just because they thought,
"Oh, it's gonna be like a joke."
732
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,167
Even back then, luckily enough,
you know, I mean,
733
00:32:39,375 --> 00:32:41,375
there wasn't the analysis
that you get...
734
00:32:41,584 --> 00:32:45,542
- The breakdown, yeah.
...'cause it's like picking apart
735
00:32:45,751 --> 00:32:48,834
the carcass before
it's even dead yet, you know?
736
00:32:49,042 --> 00:32:51,000
No, it's true.
Welcome to the Internet.
737
00:32:51,209 --> 00:32:54,626
That's, uh, 5,000 people
all have solid opinions.
738
00:32:54,834 --> 00:32:55,834
- Yeah.
- Die.
739
00:32:56,042 --> 00:32:57,709
Yeah.
( chuckles )
740
00:32:57,918 --> 00:33:01,250
Michael Keaton had done a movie
called "Clean and Sober,"
741
00:33:01,459 --> 00:33:04,792
which I saw, and I thought,
"This guy is a genius actor."
742
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,792
The shouting about Michael Keaton
as Batman
743
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,167
was so fucking loud
and proliferate
744
00:33:11,375 --> 00:33:13,334
in 1988, '89,
745
00:33:13,542 --> 00:33:15,000
that even though
the Internet didn't exist,
746
00:33:15,209 --> 00:33:16,542
the Internet was still mad.
747
00:33:16,751 --> 00:33:18,459
Like that's how fucking big it was.
748
00:33:18,667 --> 00:33:20,709
People were like,
"What? Mr. Mom?"
749
00:33:20,918 --> 00:33:23,250
Keaton: I also want to say
something in response to all the folks
750
00:33:23,459 --> 00:33:27,167
who were, uh-- who kept those cards
and letters coming, you know?
751
00:33:27,375 --> 00:33:29,125
All you got to do
is tell me no, baby.
752
00:33:29,334 --> 00:33:32,083
The reason he worked for me
is that because,
753
00:33:32,292 --> 00:33:35,459
you know, he looked like somebody
who needed to dress like a bat
754
00:33:35,667 --> 00:33:37,167
to intimidate people.
755
00:33:37,375 --> 00:33:40,000
I knew, being a street fighter
my whole life,
756
00:33:40,209 --> 00:33:42,417
that you can gauge the toughness
of your opponent
757
00:33:42,626 --> 00:33:44,334
by the look in their eyes.
758
00:33:44,542 --> 00:33:47,083
And Michael Keaton
had that look.
759
00:33:47,292 --> 00:33:49,876
And it's lights out!
Now, you wanna get nuts?
760
00:33:50,083 --> 00:33:51,834
Come on!
Let's get nuts.
761
00:33:52,042 --> 00:33:55,334
And I had just read "The Dark Knight,"
uh, the Frank Miller comic book.
762
00:33:55,542 --> 00:33:57,000
So I was like,
"I want a badder-ass Batman."
763
00:33:57,209 --> 00:33:58,751
- I wanted a darker Batman.
- Right.
764
00:33:58,959 --> 00:34:02,125
And I grew up as a little kid
watching the Adam West Batmans,
765
00:34:02,334 --> 00:34:03,959
and this Batman that came out
766
00:34:04,167 --> 00:34:06,375
- was exactly what I wanted it.
- It was
767
00:34:06,584 --> 00:34:09,417
and it did almost a billion dollars
in those days,
768
00:34:09,626 --> 00:34:12,918
because we had a line where--
when he comes up he says, "I'm Batman,"
769
00:34:13,125 --> 00:34:15,542
the line from the movie was,
"I'm Batman, motherfucker."
770
00:34:15,751 --> 00:34:19,083
And Warners made me take out
the "motherfucker."
771
00:34:19,292 --> 00:34:21,334
And I wanted to do that 'cause I knew
the kids in the audience would go,
772
00:34:21,542 --> 00:34:23,209
"Yeah! All right!"
773
00:34:23,417 --> 00:34:27,209
There were lots of reasons
why he chose, you know, Michael,
774
00:34:27,417 --> 00:34:30,083
and so I knew, you know,
in my heart that--
775
00:34:30,292 --> 00:34:32,876
and we weren't making a joke,
but there was-- I mean, you're right.
776
00:34:33,083 --> 00:34:35,876
If the Internet had been around then,
it would've been...
777
00:34:36,083 --> 00:34:39,125
Oh, it's like they just did--
I mean, they just announced something
778
00:34:39,334 --> 00:34:40,834
- with Ben Aff-- you know what I mean?
- Oh, yeah, yeah.
779
00:34:41,042 --> 00:34:42,417
Poor guy.
You know, it's like,
780
00:34:42,626 --> 00:34:43,959
you know,
I'm sure he can handle it,
781
00:34:44,167 --> 00:34:46,459
but, you know,
it's tough out there.
782
00:34:46,667 --> 00:34:47,834
Yeah.
Lot of haters.
783
00:34:48,042 --> 00:34:51,042
Lot of little trolls hiding behind
their little Mom's basement.
784
00:34:51,250 --> 00:34:53,959
All right, so you've got Tim Burton
signed on, you've signed on,
785
00:34:54,167 --> 00:34:56,125
you've got Warner Brothers,
you've got the rights together.
786
00:34:56,334 --> 00:34:57,959
How did Nic Cage
enter the picture?
787
00:34:58,167 --> 00:35:01,125
He reminded me of Michael Keaton.
They both had this...
788
00:35:01,334 --> 00:35:04,417
weren't the handsomest guys,
but both had this tremendous,
789
00:35:04,626 --> 00:35:07,000
tremendous gift as an actor.
790
00:35:07,209 --> 00:35:09,250
Now when you think about it,
if somebody was just like,
791
00:35:09,459 --> 00:35:11,709
"Would you like to see
a Nic Cage Superman movie,"
792
00:35:11,918 --> 00:35:13,626
I'd be like "Fuck" and "Yes."
793
00:35:13,834 --> 00:35:15,751
Take all my money,
'cause I wanna see what that looks like.
794
00:35:15,959 --> 00:35:17,542
I was gonna play Superman,
795
00:35:17,751 --> 00:35:20,501
and that fell apart,
for whatever their reasons.
796
00:35:20,709 --> 00:35:23,083
And then I saw that movie
and said to myself,
797
00:35:23,292 --> 00:35:25,125
"Well, that was a much more nostalgic,
798
00:35:25,334 --> 00:35:28,125
traditional approach
to that character."
799
00:35:28,334 --> 00:35:29,542
And I didn't wanna do that.
800
00:35:29,751 --> 00:35:32,834
I was gonna turn that character
upside down along with Tim Burton.
801
00:35:33,042 --> 00:35:35,209
The great thing about Nic
was that he was also--
802
00:35:35,417 --> 00:35:38,042
he was a fan of the comics
but he also was a fan
803
00:35:38,250 --> 00:35:41,792
of the sort of underpinnings
and the psychology of it all.
804
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:43,626
So that-- that-- that's, again,
what's what making it exciting.
805
00:35:43,834 --> 00:35:47,709
He sort of understood, to me,
sort of both sides of it.
806
00:35:47,918 --> 00:35:50,334
I think Tim looks at these things
slightly off-center.
807
00:35:50,542 --> 00:35:52,000
You know, I mean,
if you think about Michael Keaton,
808
00:35:52,209 --> 00:35:54,792
it's not the guy you would've
thought of casting as Batman.
809
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:56,959
And yet, when you saw it,
it was great, you know?
810
00:35:57,167 --> 00:35:59,459
And I think when we first heard
the Nic Cage idea,
811
00:35:59,667 --> 00:36:01,083
we were both intrigued
and also going,
812
00:36:01,292 --> 00:36:04,292
"Well, that wasn't really the way
we were thinking of it, exactly."
813
00:36:04,501 --> 00:36:07,083
I thought it was exciting that Warners
was sot of pushing the envelope
814
00:36:07,292 --> 00:36:10,667
and allowing not a pretty boy
like Christopher Reeve.
815
00:36:10,876 --> 00:36:14,292
I think that's what they were trying
to do is not have that squared-off jaw
816
00:36:14,501 --> 00:36:16,459
like Chris Reeve or any of
the other people that have played
817
00:36:16,667 --> 00:36:17,792
Superman in the past.
818
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,876
They wanted somebody
who was a little edgier.
819
00:36:20,083 --> 00:36:22,375
Yeah, so it was your call
to get Nicolas Cage?
820
00:36:22,584 --> 00:36:23,959
Yes, it was my call,
my idea, yeah.
821
00:36:24,167 --> 00:36:27,501
He could create a character
that was an alien
822
00:36:27,709 --> 00:36:30,125
from another planet,
823
00:36:30,334 --> 00:36:32,959
so why couldn't he be
a dark alien and light?
824
00:36:33,167 --> 00:36:37,125
I didn't wanna make someone
who was just... pink.
825
00:36:37,334 --> 00:36:39,542
I wanted something for the street.
826
00:36:39,751 --> 00:36:41,292
Because he's such an eloquent actor,
827
00:36:41,501 --> 00:36:43,542
he's got a very powerful presence,
828
00:36:43,751 --> 00:36:46,959
he can convey doubt and torment,
829
00:36:47,167 --> 00:36:50,125
he can convey joy and happiness
830
00:36:50,334 --> 00:36:53,042
and humor, and, you know,
he's an actor.
831
00:36:53,250 --> 00:36:55,918
And the Oscar is awarded to...
832
00:36:56,125 --> 00:36:57,959
Nicolas Cage.
833
00:36:58,167 --> 00:37:00,918
I know it's not hip to say it,
but I just love acting,
834
00:37:01,125 --> 00:37:04,751
and I hope that there will be
more encouragement
835
00:37:04,959 --> 00:37:07,667
for alternative movies
where we can experiment
836
00:37:07,876 --> 00:37:10,083
and fast-forward
into the future of acting.
837
00:37:10,292 --> 00:37:13,417
When you match that with this idea
of making him a guy who
838
00:37:13,626 --> 00:37:15,125
has some insecurities,
839
00:37:15,334 --> 00:37:18,876
and Nic has that ability
to play so vulnerable,
840
00:37:19,083 --> 00:37:21,667
It was actually
a very natural fit to his take.
841
00:37:21,876 --> 00:37:23,292
Casting of Lois Lane--
842
00:37:23,501 --> 00:37:26,209
um, some of the names that came up
were Courteney Cox,
843
00:37:26,417 --> 00:37:28,375
- Julianne Moore...
- Courteney Cox I met with,
844
00:37:28,584 --> 00:37:29,834
- Julianne Moore I met.
- And Sandra Bullock.
845
00:37:30,042 --> 00:37:31,959
Sandra Bullock
was our main choice.
846
00:37:32,167 --> 00:37:33,918
She would've made
a great Lois Lane.
847
00:37:36,626 --> 00:37:38,542
( chuckles )
848
00:37:38,751 --> 00:37:41,375
Gee, where was I?
I must not have been in that day.
849
00:37:41,584 --> 00:37:44,250
Funny. She'd do it today,
but at the time, she turned us down.
850
00:37:44,459 --> 00:37:47,292
- And Chris Rock as Jimmy Olsen?
- Yeah, I think...
851
00:37:47,501 --> 00:37:49,709
I think we talked about Chris, yeah.
852
00:37:49,918 --> 00:37:52,709
Yeah, I like Chris.
Yeah, yeah, that...
853
00:37:52,918 --> 00:37:55,542
that sounds about right.
( chuckles )
854
00:37:55,751 --> 00:37:58,250
Chris Rock came into work one day
on "Dogma" and was like,
855
00:37:58,459 --> 00:38:01,042
"Guess who's playing Jimmy Olsen."
856
00:38:01,250 --> 00:38:03,292
- And I was like, "You?"
- And he goes, "Why not me?"
857
00:38:03,501 --> 00:38:05,167
I was like, "I'm just asking."
I was like, "That's awesome!"
858
00:38:05,375 --> 00:38:07,209
He's going,
"Just got the call today."
859
00:38:07,417 --> 00:38:09,083
I had heard
Jim Carrey as Brainiac.
860
00:38:09,292 --> 00:38:10,542
Ooh.
861
00:38:10,751 --> 00:38:13,125
Jim Carrey even born back then?
862
00:38:13,334 --> 00:38:14,334
- Yes.
- Was he?
863
00:38:14,542 --> 00:38:17,334
Schnepp: He had just played
The Riddler in "Batman Forever."
864
00:38:17,542 --> 00:38:22,167
I also had sort of
Christopher Walken in mind for Brainiac.
865
00:38:22,375 --> 00:38:26,083
One of the reasons why we all liked
Walken was because he's both
866
00:38:26,292 --> 00:38:29,834
a very menacing cat,
but he's also very funny, right?
867
00:38:30,042 --> 00:38:33,250
So there's a slightly off-centered
quality to who he is.
868
00:38:33,459 --> 00:38:35,876
Your daughter's screaming.
869
00:38:36,083 --> 00:38:37,751
Amy's screaming.
870
00:38:37,959 --> 00:38:40,918
And Brainiac can come across,
I think,
871
00:38:41,125 --> 00:38:43,000
very cold and very intellectual.
872
00:38:43,209 --> 00:38:44,959
The idea of embodying him
with a guy like that
873
00:38:45,167 --> 00:38:47,501
who has so much
bursting out of him...
874
00:38:47,709 --> 00:38:49,918
Shh!
875
00:38:50,125 --> 00:38:52,083
Kevin Spacey, I know,
he had talked about Luther,
876
00:38:52,292 --> 00:38:54,626
- and that was eventually Bryan Singer.
- Yeah. Yeah, we did.
877
00:38:54,834 --> 00:38:56,584
We always thought
he would be a good idea.
878
00:38:56,792 --> 00:38:58,292
He'd done a lot of movies
at Warners with us.
879
00:38:58,501 --> 00:39:00,918
He was definitely a favorite,
and I love him as an actor.
880
00:39:01,125 --> 00:39:02,918
So it was sort of
a no-brainer, that one.
881
00:39:03,125 --> 00:39:05,167
I always had
a certain thing in mind,
882
00:39:05,375 --> 00:39:09,083
and talked to Kevin Spacey
about Lex Luthor.
883
00:39:09,292 --> 00:39:10,792
Smith:
That is Lex Luthor.
884
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:15,167
The utter arrogance of, "Everyone
in this room is fucking beneath me."
885
00:39:15,375 --> 00:39:17,918
Like, what he has to be
behind closed doors is,
886
00:39:18,125 --> 00:39:20,125
"That fucking Kryptonian alien."
887
00:39:20,334 --> 00:39:23,167
Like, everything is dripping with
"He's not one of us."
888
00:39:23,375 --> 00:39:28,751
'Cause that's the only way that he could
possibly stand up to or over Superman.
889
00:39:28,959 --> 00:39:31,918
Gods are selfish beings
who fly around in little red capes
890
00:39:32,125 --> 00:39:34,292
and don't share their power
with mankind.
891
00:39:34,501 --> 00:39:39,042
So I had this sort of idea of kind of
melding them in a certain way.
892
00:39:39,250 --> 00:39:43,501
Strick: At some point, Brainiac
and Lex Luthor merge physically,
893
00:39:43,709 --> 00:39:45,751
and Tim was, like,
kind of doubtful about that.
894
00:39:45,959 --> 00:39:47,876
He said, "Isn't that gonna be
too much like that movie
895
00:39:48,083 --> 00:39:51,125
with Roosevelt Grier and Ray Milland,
"The Thing with Two Heads"?
896
00:39:51,834 --> 00:39:55,042
Like, that's when I read "Lex-iac."
"Wow, that's amazing!"
897
00:39:55,250 --> 00:39:56,542
Burton: I remember
I had a meeting with Kevin,
898
00:39:56,751 --> 00:40:00,209
and he's just-- he's very good
at doing certain imitation.
899
00:40:00,417 --> 00:40:02,209
And, uh, he did a great
Christopher Walken.
900
00:40:02,417 --> 00:40:04,626
Now, Christopher couldn't
be here tonight, Mike,
901
00:40:04,834 --> 00:40:06,501
but he did send
the following telegram:
902
00:40:08,167 --> 00:40:10,250
It's crazy.
903
00:40:10,459 --> 00:40:12,834
You know, the A.F.I.,
it's an award--
904
00:40:13,042 --> 00:40:15,083
it's like the Tony,
which I'm up for,
905
00:40:15,292 --> 00:40:17,792
and you have a bunch of--
it's crazy.
906
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,250
- Well, you're saying Christopher...
- But that's who I wanted.
907
00:40:20,459 --> 00:40:22,417
I mean, so, when I get something
in my mind, you know...
908
00:40:22,626 --> 00:40:26,375
But I also wanted Sammy Davis Jr.
for "Beetlejuice."
909
00:40:26,584 --> 00:40:28,459
Wrong.
910
00:40:28,667 --> 00:40:32,000
In terms of design,
you always try to match
911
00:40:32,209 --> 00:40:34,876
the design with the cast
and what you're going for and what--
912
00:40:35,083 --> 00:40:39,334
you know, and I think nothing, you know,
nothing ever really got finalized
913
00:40:39,542 --> 00:40:41,792
because everything else
was so, kind of, chaotic.
914
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,125
Well, a lot of the sort of guts
of the story is about
915
00:40:45,334 --> 00:40:49,083
an evolution that happens
to our main character.
916
00:40:49,292 --> 00:40:52,959
And we wanted, really,
to show that visually with the suits.
917
00:40:54,626 --> 00:40:56,626
Schnepp: A lot of people
just jump to strange conclusions.
918
00:40:56,834 --> 00:40:58,209
Especially, like,
we have troll wars...
919
00:40:58,417 --> 00:41:01,417
And we were crucified for that.
Tim always talked about it
920
00:41:01,626 --> 00:41:03,709
almost as though it was an alien
that was cradling him
921
00:41:03,918 --> 00:41:05,918
and bringing him back to life
after he dies,
922
00:41:06,125 --> 00:41:07,501
but it was a kind of a living organism.
923
00:41:07,709 --> 00:41:09,501
Schnepp: Right.
I think what happened with that--
924
00:41:09,709 --> 00:41:13,042
the Kal-El character, and he had
some kind of like robotic assistant
925
00:41:13,250 --> 00:41:15,292
that then when Superman
lost his powers,
926
00:41:15,501 --> 00:41:17,834
or actually when he got killed
by Doomsday,
927
00:41:18,042 --> 00:41:21,250
he had this like Kryptonian
kind of regeneration suit.
928
00:41:21,459 --> 00:41:23,501
Well, that has to be what it is, then.
Look at me-- I made it,
929
00:41:23,709 --> 00:41:25,375
and I don't know what the hell
I'm talking about.
930
00:41:26,626 --> 00:41:29,292
Atwood: That was, like,
the beginning of the regeneration suit,
931
00:41:29,501 --> 00:41:32,501
as the layers went on in the beginning,
when he was in the tank.
932
00:41:32,709 --> 00:41:35,792
So it's kind of the idea
of replacing
933
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,918
neural and circulatory things
in your body
934
00:41:39,125 --> 00:41:41,834
that were kind of under the fluid
that could be laser-driven and stuff
935
00:41:42,042 --> 00:41:46,125
without the kind of ecto layer
that you saw through later on it.
936
00:41:46,334 --> 00:41:47,459
So the first thing we did is,
937
00:41:47,667 --> 00:41:49,709
we sculpted a suit
and we cast it in silicone.
938
00:41:49,918 --> 00:41:52,042
But we did it over
Nic Cage's light cast...
939
00:41:52,250 --> 00:41:55,626
Kind of a biomechanical,
much more standard-looking suit.
940
00:42:07,334 --> 00:42:08,876
So we did this test on Nic with this
941
00:42:09,083 --> 00:42:12,626
basic, solid, silicone suit in New York,
and it was a complete disaster.
942
00:42:12,834 --> 00:42:15,167
He hated it. I hated it.
Tim hated it.
943
00:42:15,375 --> 00:42:18,125
Colleen hated it. I'm surprised
they didn't fire me right there.
944
00:42:26,459 --> 00:42:29,959
Oh, no. It's not...
945
00:42:30,167 --> 00:42:32,584
- What's doing it?
- I think this stuff is.
946
00:42:32,792 --> 00:42:34,292
Schnepp:
You made a couple different things.
947
00:42:34,501 --> 00:42:37,042
You made this exoskeleton
where he's kind of in this
948
00:42:37,250 --> 00:42:39,042
fluid, kind of regenerating,
949
00:42:39,250 --> 00:42:41,667
and then the robotic--
kind of those clear things.
950
00:42:57,626 --> 00:42:59,626
Johnson: The biggest problem with it,
it's not clear enough,
951
00:42:59,834 --> 00:43:02,167
it's not alive enough,
it's not iridescent enough,
952
00:43:02,375 --> 00:43:05,584
and, hello, it doesn't really move
very well, so how can we fix that?
953
00:43:05,792 --> 00:43:09,542
And I happen to have
a fantastic team.
954
00:43:09,751 --> 00:43:11,000
I believe Lennie Macdonald,
955
00:43:11,209 --> 00:43:14,292
who's a complete mad scientist
in this business and Bill Bryan as well,
956
00:43:14,501 --> 00:43:16,501
teamed up on this,
knowing what was possible,
957
00:43:16,709 --> 00:43:17,626
what we could do,
what we couldn't.
958
00:43:17,834 --> 00:43:22,042
I first started working with Steve
at Boss Films on "Ghostbusters."
959
00:43:22,250 --> 00:43:26,292
He was in charge of Slimer
and the librarian.
960
00:43:26,501 --> 00:43:27,876
I decided,
you know what?
961
00:43:28,083 --> 00:43:31,334
How about I just take a bunch
of the vacu-formed pieces,
962
00:43:31,542 --> 00:43:34,042
go back upstairs to my loft
and start messing with them.
963
00:43:34,250 --> 00:43:36,542
Vacu-forming is when you take
plastic, heat it up,
964
00:43:36,751 --> 00:43:40,083
and then take suction and suck it
around a hard plaster mold
965
00:43:40,292 --> 00:43:44,000
that we previously laminated
with an iridescent material.
966
00:43:44,209 --> 00:43:46,250
Once that's set up,
we can then vacu-form it,
967
00:43:46,459 --> 00:43:47,584
and something
interesting happened.
968
00:43:47,792 --> 00:43:50,250
The iridescent qualities
become amazing, like an oil slick.
969
00:43:50,459 --> 00:43:52,626
And we had done this on "The Abyss"
and it looked really cool,
970
00:43:52,834 --> 00:43:53,751
so we thought,
okay, that's step one.
971
00:43:53,959 --> 00:43:54,918
That's a soap bubble.
972
00:43:55,125 --> 00:43:57,959
They had these vacu-formed parts,
973
00:43:58,167 --> 00:44:00,501
and they were all in the places
that needed to move.
974
00:44:00,709 --> 00:44:02,417
And I started overlapping them
975
00:44:02,626 --> 00:44:04,417
and letting them slide
against each other.
976
00:44:04,626 --> 00:44:07,667
Colleen, when she came in and, uh,
she looked at us and said,
977
00:44:07,876 --> 00:44:09,626
"Hey, now, this has got
some possibilities."
978
00:44:09,834 --> 00:44:12,209
And then she had us
develop it further.
979
00:44:12,417 --> 00:44:17,125
Johnson: And we literally took
hundreds and hundreds of these
980
00:44:17,334 --> 00:44:20,584
beetle-like iridescent shapes,
we sculpted all of these shapes--
981
00:44:20,792 --> 00:44:21,709
every muscle in the body,
982
00:44:21,918 --> 00:44:24,292
extending it a little bit further
than you would need.
983
00:44:24,501 --> 00:44:27,334
And we came up with little clear staples
to go underneath,
984
00:44:27,542 --> 00:44:30,334
and it was all held together
with clear vinyl tubing.
985
00:44:30,542 --> 00:44:32,459
Johnson: Tie them together,
on Tim's recommendation
986
00:44:32,667 --> 00:44:33,876
as he wanted to go
a little "Edward Scissorhands,
987
00:44:34,083 --> 00:44:36,334
make it haphazard,
so we had this weird tubing
988
00:44:36,542 --> 00:44:38,792
that was tying it together
in a very asymmetrical fashion.
989
00:44:40,375 --> 00:44:42,501
We ran fiber optics
in all kinds of patterns,
990
00:44:42,709 --> 00:44:45,209
sequenced them,
laid into the Superman suit.
991
00:44:45,417 --> 00:44:48,501
You've got to know that number one optic
comes out at number one port,
992
00:44:48,709 --> 00:44:50,042
number two--
through the hundreds of them,
993
00:44:50,250 --> 00:44:53,751
so that you can then pattern the shapes,
just like a Las Vegas sign.
994
00:44:53,959 --> 00:44:56,501
That was a layered costume,
so it was
995
00:44:56,709 --> 00:45:00,417
a sculpt of musculature
with a sculpt of clear,
996
00:45:00,626 --> 00:45:02,918
almost like a plexi layer over it
997
00:45:03,125 --> 00:45:06,125
with etching in the plexi
where light could pass through it
998
00:45:06,334 --> 00:45:09,834
and it would sort of have
a glowing quality.
999
00:45:10,042 --> 00:45:13,334
Which were powered with lasers,
so it was really powerful stuff.
1000
00:45:13,542 --> 00:45:15,334
It looked great.
1001
00:45:16,709 --> 00:45:18,584
Heinrichs:
Tim was not a comics geek.
1002
00:45:18,792 --> 00:45:22,000
His thing was film, television,
1003
00:45:22,209 --> 00:45:25,918
and he was able to synthesize
a lot of what he saw
1004
00:45:26,125 --> 00:45:29,626
into a Tim Burton look and feel.
1005
00:45:29,834 --> 00:45:32,584
I've always admired the fact that
1006
00:45:32,792 --> 00:45:35,626
he doesn't approach things
with the same kind of reverence
1007
00:45:35,834 --> 00:45:38,876
that somebody who loved the comics
and loved certain things about them.
1008
00:45:39,083 --> 00:45:43,209
You know, every show Tim does,
he initiates the show with
1009
00:45:43,417 --> 00:45:45,375
sketches, character designs,
1010
00:45:45,584 --> 00:45:48,876
and they immediately give you a sense
of where he wants to go
1011
00:45:49,083 --> 00:45:50,876
and what he wants to do.
1012
00:45:51,083 --> 00:45:53,292
In your Tim Burton art book
from your museum show,
1013
00:45:53,501 --> 00:45:55,792
there's a big picture of Brainiac,
like with green flames,
1014
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:57,334
and there's three characters standing.
1015
00:45:57,542 --> 00:45:59,667
Burton: Well, there was like a bit
Wizard of Oz-y kind of...
1016
00:45:59,876 --> 00:46:02,375
What about some of those images
that I saw in some of your artwork?
1017
00:46:02,584 --> 00:46:03,959
Like a-- he has like--
he's kind of a--
1018
00:46:04,167 --> 00:46:07,000
he was a supercomputer,
so he's kind of a greenish...
1019
00:46:07,209 --> 00:46:09,918
Yeah, I kind of, I don't know,
I had a weird mixture of, like,
1020
00:46:10,125 --> 00:46:14,042
that head in the ball
of "The Haunted Mansion."
1021
00:46:14,250 --> 00:46:16,918
Sort of like a fishbowl
1022
00:46:17,125 --> 00:46:19,918
kind of head kind of thing.
1023
00:46:20,125 --> 00:46:23,626
And there was, like...
1024
00:46:23,834 --> 00:46:26,250
he had a cape on
or he looked like he was human,
1025
00:46:26,459 --> 00:46:29,792
but then he's, like,
more of a spider.
1026
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,584
You know,
I think I was inspired by
1027
00:46:32,792 --> 00:46:34,959
"The Brain That Wouldn't Die"
1028
00:46:35,167 --> 00:46:36,959
and there was a thing...
1029
00:46:37,167 --> 00:46:40,918
there was a spider creature
in "Jonny Quest" that I remember.
1030
00:46:41,125 --> 00:46:43,626
Weird mixture of things.
1031
00:46:43,834 --> 00:46:46,125
I was given a sketch
that Tim Burton did,
1032
00:46:46,334 --> 00:46:48,459
which I thought was cool.
1033
00:46:48,667 --> 00:46:50,209
Johnson:
And the sketches that Tim does,
1034
00:46:50,417 --> 00:46:52,000
they end up looking
a lot like that in the film.
1035
00:46:52,209 --> 00:46:54,125
It just was something
I had never encountered before.
1036
00:46:54,334 --> 00:46:56,334
And so I'm like, "Does he want me
to make this stuff look real,
1037
00:46:56,542 --> 00:46:58,626
or is he kidding?"
1038
00:46:58,834 --> 00:47:00,667
So I kind of took that sketch
1039
00:47:00,876 --> 00:47:04,042
and kind of made it
a little more superhero-ish.
1040
00:47:04,250 --> 00:47:06,918
It was still interesting.
We actually nicknamed that guy
1041
00:47:07,125 --> 00:47:09,042
"Edward Supermans."
1042
00:47:09,250 --> 00:47:12,209
How did those characters like Brainiac
come about visually for you?
1043
00:47:12,417 --> 00:47:15,000
You know, obviously, they're very crude,
so the thing is, is like, you know,
1044
00:47:15,209 --> 00:47:17,042
that's why you find people
to work with
1045
00:47:17,250 --> 00:47:20,667
who you know you can get something crude
and then interpret it
1046
00:47:20,876 --> 00:47:23,042
- to something that's real.
- Yeah.
1047
00:47:23,250 --> 00:47:26,250
'Cause to be honest, if things looked
exactly the way I drew them,
1048
00:47:26,459 --> 00:47:29,792
it wouldn't necessarily be so...
you know.
1049
00:47:31,501 --> 00:47:34,876
One of the concepts we were pursuing
is for Kal-El's journey,
1050
00:47:35,083 --> 00:47:38,792
that Jor-El provided with him
a means to survive.
1051
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,417
And one of the main means
1052
00:47:41,626 --> 00:47:44,459
for his survival in this new world
was Kay.
1053
00:47:44,667 --> 00:47:48,042
It was to be a companion for him
throughout his life.
1054
00:47:48,250 --> 00:47:50,083
Tim had a brilliant idea
1055
00:47:50,292 --> 00:47:53,000
to have Kay start out
as almost a teddy bear.
1056
00:47:53,209 --> 00:47:56,542
Kal-El was a baby when
he got in the craft to come to Earth,
1057
00:47:56,751 --> 00:48:00,959
and as Kal-El grew in the spaceship
on his journey to Earth,
1058
00:48:01,167 --> 00:48:03,542
he'd have this little teddy bear,
a companion,
1059
00:48:03,751 --> 00:48:05,918
something to comfort him
a little bit.
1060
00:48:06,125 --> 00:48:10,125
And Kay had the abilities
to morph and to change
1061
00:48:10,334 --> 00:48:12,292
to suit his needs.
1062
00:48:13,709 --> 00:48:16,083
Schnepp:
There was a through-line with both
1063
00:48:16,292 --> 00:48:18,751
Superman and Kay.
1064
00:48:18,959 --> 00:48:21,125
I like the whole Kay concept.
1065
00:48:21,334 --> 00:48:23,334
Going from the rejuvenation suit
1066
00:48:23,542 --> 00:48:26,250
into basically, I guess,
the Kay character
1067
00:48:26,459 --> 00:48:28,709
kind of becomes his suit
for a little bit.
1068
00:48:28,918 --> 00:48:31,375
Atwood:
We decided that it was protective.
1069
00:48:31,584 --> 00:48:33,542
We didn't want
another Superman suit.
1070
00:48:33,751 --> 00:48:34,792
That was pretty much all I heard.
1071
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:39,125
It's like, "Tim Burton, it's Superman,
and you're gonna design a suit
1072
00:48:39,334 --> 00:48:41,501
that is gonna replicate his powers.
1073
00:48:41,709 --> 00:48:45,459
I knew that there was probably an
element that he was healing inside it,
1074
00:48:45,667 --> 00:48:47,584
regenerating, possibly.
1075
00:48:47,792 --> 00:48:51,083
That kind of put this notion of
something that was maybe a bit Egyptian.
1076
00:48:51,292 --> 00:48:53,250
What about all the glyphs
on his suit?
1077
00:48:53,459 --> 00:48:56,709
Sharp: I thought the hieroglyphs
would give it a sense of age
1078
00:48:56,918 --> 00:48:59,125
and to make it feel alien.
1079
00:48:59,334 --> 00:49:01,584
And I probably completely
ripped off Ridley Scott with that.
1080
00:49:01,792 --> 00:49:04,542
The design I did was completely
unwieldy and impractical,
1081
00:49:04,751 --> 00:49:07,667
but it was always meant to be
just a leap-off point.
1082
00:49:07,876 --> 00:49:10,584
Carson:
We were kind of exploring a gothic,
1083
00:49:10,792 --> 00:49:13,334
art-deco, New York-ish
1084
00:49:13,542 --> 00:49:17,000
kind of a design language
on many of those.
1085
00:49:17,209 --> 00:49:20,501
Kind of different from the traditional
guy flying with a cape
1086
00:49:20,709 --> 00:49:23,042
so that it was
obvious that Kay
1087
00:49:23,250 --> 00:49:26,959
had melded with him
and become one with him
1088
00:49:27,167 --> 00:49:31,375
and just assisted
every part of his being.
1089
00:49:31,584 --> 00:49:35,459
Within the story,
Superman, you know, almost dies,
1090
00:49:35,667 --> 00:49:38,292
he has a healing bath,
he has a new suit at the end,
1091
00:49:38,501 --> 00:49:42,542
so it was a big deal with costumes
and studio and all that.
1092
00:49:42,751 --> 00:49:44,667
Here, I believe,
this one would be
1093
00:49:44,876 --> 00:49:47,626
after the Kay suit disengages,
1094
00:49:47,834 --> 00:49:49,626
and this is the reformed,
newer version.
1095
00:49:49,834 --> 00:49:52,542
This is the new,
darker Superman.
1096
00:49:52,751 --> 00:49:54,918
It feels a little more organic
than the suit.
1097
00:49:55,125 --> 00:49:57,459
Like, it feels a little more
exposed, in a way.
1098
00:49:57,667 --> 00:50:00,167
This "S" kind of broke apart
into, like...
1099
00:50:00,709 --> 00:50:02,709
- almost like a boomerang.
- Yeah, like weaponry.
1100
00:50:02,918 --> 00:50:04,709
And the logo was really important.
1101
00:50:04,918 --> 00:50:07,334
That logo had to break up
into elements.
1102
00:50:07,542 --> 00:50:09,626
Schnepp: I've seen
the silver "S," like, castings of it.
1103
00:50:09,834 --> 00:50:11,792
How far did you get
with that final outfit?
1104
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,042
Atwood: We kind of knew
what the material was
1105
00:50:14,250 --> 00:50:17,792
and the shapes and all that,
but as far as really mechanically
1106
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,792
making all that stuff work,
we weren't there yet.
1107
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,751
Schnepp: Doing a good job
of sculpting it up in 3-D,
1108
00:50:23,959 --> 00:50:25,709
vacu-forming those.
1109
00:50:25,918 --> 00:50:29,334
They vacu-formed them
in clear, iridescent,
1110
00:50:29,542 --> 00:50:33,083
reflective colors and shiny stuff.
1111
00:50:33,292 --> 00:50:36,667
This was gonna have a super polished
sort of feeling to it
1112
00:50:36,876 --> 00:50:39,626
to show all the different definitions
of the muscles.
1113
00:50:39,834 --> 00:50:42,542
When you moved and flew,
it would look really cool
1114
00:50:42,751 --> 00:50:45,042
because black is hard to film.
1115
00:50:45,250 --> 00:50:47,751
So this kind of kicked back
enough light
1116
00:50:47,959 --> 00:50:49,292
that you could
sort of see the body
1117
00:50:49,501 --> 00:50:52,209
and kind of feel the movement
a little bit more.
1118
00:50:52,417 --> 00:50:55,000
What inspired you
for some of the designs
1119
00:50:55,209 --> 00:50:57,167
of Superman's outfit,
1120
00:50:57,375 --> 00:51:00,000
which some were super shiny
and rubbery.
1121
00:51:00,209 --> 00:51:02,000
What were you going for?
1122
00:51:02,209 --> 00:51:05,501
Well, we were kind of into
a new discovery, you know?
1123
00:51:05,709 --> 00:51:08,125
We were looking for something
that wasn't a leotard.
1124
00:51:08,334 --> 00:51:10,709
We were looking for
the definition of muscle
1125
00:51:10,918 --> 00:51:13,959
which was more, kind of different
than the original "Superman,"
1126
00:51:14,167 --> 00:51:16,709
that was more of that period
where people didn't work out.
1127
00:51:16,918 --> 00:51:20,042
What she was doing also,
using sculptors.
1128
00:51:20,250 --> 00:51:22,334
They were sculpting
this fantastic suit.
1129
00:51:22,542 --> 00:51:24,626
Everybody wants to know
about the suit, always.
1130
00:51:24,834 --> 00:51:26,834
We get e-mails--
I get e-mails all the time.
1131
00:51:27,042 --> 00:51:29,667
"Can you tell me about the suit?"
I've never understood the fascination.
1132
00:51:29,876 --> 00:51:31,083
It's a suit.
1133
00:51:31,292 --> 00:51:33,501
He set up a team over there like
Jose Fernandez,
1134
00:51:33,709 --> 00:51:35,000
was an incredible suit creator.
1135
00:51:35,209 --> 00:51:39,042
It's a different kind of vision
of what the Superman meant.
1136
00:51:39,250 --> 00:51:41,334
So in this case, you know,
he was cut.
1137
00:51:41,542 --> 00:51:44,709
And so his suit had to fit
and be a certain way.
1138
00:51:44,918 --> 00:51:47,000
So it was a combination
of Nic and sculpt.
1139
00:51:47,209 --> 00:51:49,417
The first motion picture
I worked on with Tim
1140
00:51:49,626 --> 00:51:51,918
was "Mars Attacks!"
So this was the follow-up to that.
1141
00:51:52,125 --> 00:51:54,959
To have that suit play a part
1142
00:51:55,167 --> 00:51:56,876
as the character goes through
a transformation I thought
1143
00:51:57,083 --> 00:51:59,959
was really unique and something
you really, I guess,
1144
00:52:00,167 --> 00:52:02,292
up to that point,
you really hadn't seen in anything.
1145
00:52:02,501 --> 00:52:05,918
Between that and the different
incarnations of the suit--
1146
00:52:06,125 --> 00:52:09,459
the bio suit, which a lot of people
speculated about, talked about--
1147
00:52:09,667 --> 00:52:12,209
I'm glad you're clearing up
a lot of those perceptions.
1148
00:52:12,417 --> 00:52:14,292
Two minutes.
Two minutes in the movie
1149
00:52:14,501 --> 00:52:17,042
inside some kind of weird
neutrino liquid bath,
1150
00:52:17,250 --> 00:52:19,000
you'd see this electric stuff--
1151
00:52:19,209 --> 00:52:20,876
That's it.
That's all you would've seen.
1152
00:52:21,083 --> 00:52:23,000
It wasn't him flying around
with a rainbow suit.
1153
00:52:23,209 --> 00:52:26,000
I know there's been stills out there
from those tests,
1154
00:52:26,209 --> 00:52:29,000
and the stills actually
don't do it justice at all.
1155
00:52:29,209 --> 00:52:32,209
Schnepp: It's fantastic. I was referring
to this footage as the holy grail.
1156
00:52:32,417 --> 00:52:34,000
Frey:
It is like the holy grail.
1157
00:52:53,584 --> 00:52:56,584
Initially, I was really struck
at how he looked in that suit.
1158
00:52:56,792 --> 00:52:59,584
His physique, it was different
than what we had seen before.
1159
00:52:59,792 --> 00:53:01,751
Obviously, he's quite
a lean fellow,
1160
00:53:01,959 --> 00:53:04,083
but there was a certain power
to him as well.
1161
00:53:04,292 --> 00:53:08,042
Obviously, they're early tests.
It's about the giddiness,
1162
00:53:08,250 --> 00:53:11,375
the excitement of Tim and Nic
and their passion for it
1163
00:53:11,584 --> 00:53:13,792
and their first exploration
of the character.
1164
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:15,834
That's what always got me excited.
1165
00:53:31,250 --> 00:53:34,792
What did Nic say about pixie dust?
What was he saying? "Sparkle dust"?
1166
00:53:42,792 --> 00:53:45,792
The blue had a metallic finish to it.
That's what he meant.
1167
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,959
But he's a car guy, so they probably
call it that in car world.
1168
00:53:50,167 --> 00:53:51,584
That kind of obre two-tone.
1169
00:53:51,792 --> 00:53:55,209
When it changes in the light,
it goes back and forth.
1170
00:53:55,417 --> 00:53:56,459
We started with a darker blue,
1171
00:53:56,667 --> 00:53:58,501
but because it was a
black suit at the end,
1172
00:53:58,709 --> 00:54:00,584
we ended up with a more kind of
1173
00:54:00,792 --> 00:54:03,167
metallic feeling
on the surface of the suit.
1174
00:54:03,375 --> 00:54:06,250
So we tested
a million different materials
1175
00:54:06,459 --> 00:54:08,334
to try to figure out
what to make it out of.
1176
00:54:08,542 --> 00:54:11,167
I had guys coming in from 3M
and all these places
1177
00:54:11,375 --> 00:54:12,834
going, "Hey, we have
this new product."
1178
00:54:13,042 --> 00:54:15,584
It was really exciting that way
just to see...
1179
00:54:15,792 --> 00:54:17,834
You know, it's like
industrial design, almost.
1180
00:54:18,042 --> 00:54:21,501
With Superman's iconic kind of
an "S" curl and things like that,
1181
00:54:21,709 --> 00:54:22,876
were you gonna go with like a bit--
1182
00:54:23,083 --> 00:54:25,834
like the pictures that we saw
were like obviously a test-- long hair?
1183
00:55:11,250 --> 00:55:13,334
When they make wigs,
they make them
1184
00:55:13,542 --> 00:55:16,417
- so that they can be...
- Oh, yeah. They cut it down.
1185
00:55:16,626 --> 00:55:18,709
But we could've made it
into a nice "S,"
1186
00:55:18,918 --> 00:55:20,834
we could've given it
a nice bouffant,
1187
00:55:21,042 --> 00:55:22,626
a big comb-over...
1188
00:55:22,834 --> 00:55:25,959
I mean, we had so much
at our disposal.
1189
00:55:26,167 --> 00:55:28,959
Of course the Superman of the '90s,
also a lot of people forget
1190
00:55:29,167 --> 00:55:31,459
that the Superman of the '90s
had long hair at the time.
1191
00:55:31,667 --> 00:55:33,709
In the comic books,
he had longer hair.
1192
00:55:33,918 --> 00:55:36,459
We looked at long hair, short hair,
this thing, that thing.
1193
00:55:36,667 --> 00:55:40,167
It's like your notes
to yourself, you know?
1194
00:55:51,959 --> 00:55:53,834
I always looked at Superman--
1195
00:55:54,042 --> 00:55:56,834
"Can we get the diapers
off of him a little bit? Ehh..."
1196
00:55:57,042 --> 00:55:58,918
The red underwear
on the outside--
1197
00:55:59,125 --> 00:56:02,334
you know, we tried all different ways
to avoid that, actually,
1198
00:56:02,542 --> 00:56:05,667
'cause people kind of tend to make fun
of that element on Superman,
1199
00:56:05,876 --> 00:56:08,459
like the old "tighty-whitey"
kind of vibe.
1200
00:56:08,667 --> 00:56:12,667
You know, with superhero costumes,
it's always about the crotch.
1201
00:56:12,876 --> 00:56:14,876
There was a suggestion
that Superman wears
1202
00:56:15,083 --> 00:56:16,959
basketball shorts
like the Lakers.
1203
00:56:17,167 --> 00:56:20,042
I don't even know where this came up,
if I'm dreaming this or...
1204
00:56:20,250 --> 00:56:23,918
They started mentioning, like,
Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe,
1205
00:56:24,125 --> 00:56:26,459
the Laker outfits and doing it more
so it looks like
1206
00:56:26,667 --> 00:56:29,250
a basketball Laker...
I don't know.
1207
00:56:29,459 --> 00:56:31,584
Atwood: And you're just like,
"Really? How does that work?"
1208
00:56:31,792 --> 00:56:33,918
That's a horrible suggestion.
I'm glad that they didn't go with that.
1209
00:56:34,125 --> 00:56:35,083
It went away.
1210
00:57:02,375 --> 00:57:04,918
Atwood: We had capes
in all different surfaces and colors.
1211
00:57:05,125 --> 00:57:08,334
As the costume changed and evolved,
then the cape could also
1212
00:57:08,542 --> 00:57:11,834
go from light to dark
and for different purposes.
1213
00:57:12,042 --> 00:57:14,292
One of the things
that I tried to get Tim to do
1214
00:57:14,501 --> 00:57:16,501
at the time,
and we may have done it,
1215
00:57:16,709 --> 00:57:19,667
was to create a character
out of the cape,
1216
00:57:19,876 --> 00:57:22,209
so that in situations that he was in,
it became formidable.
1217
00:57:22,417 --> 00:57:26,083
It could take that cape
and he could throw it
1218
00:57:26,292 --> 00:57:29,334
and bring somebody to him,
cut their head off, whatever it is,
1219
00:57:29,542 --> 00:57:33,042
as a weapon that lived
and came back on him.
1220
00:57:41,959 --> 00:57:43,834
The thing we were gonna do,
1221
00:57:44,042 --> 00:57:46,834
and obviously we didn't even get--
we just had the initial thing--
1222
00:57:47,042 --> 00:57:49,834
was to give it
whatever that vibe was
1223
00:57:50,042 --> 00:57:53,792
but to make it him,
so whatever that was.
1224
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,292
And it usually takes you a while
to organically find
1225
00:57:56,501 --> 00:57:58,334
what that image is.
1226
00:57:58,542 --> 00:58:00,751
You know, like in terms of the texture,
the costume and, you know,
1227
00:58:00,959 --> 00:58:03,834
all of that was just
real initial stuff.
1228
00:58:04,042 --> 00:58:05,918
Man: In the process
of making your film,
1229
00:58:06,125 --> 00:58:08,000
you found that actual moment
1230
00:58:08,209 --> 00:58:11,667
when Nicolas Cage was closing his eyes
in the middle of the screen test,
1231
00:58:11,876 --> 00:58:14,667
wasn't aware, he wasn't even
posing or looking at the camera.
1232
00:58:14,876 --> 00:58:16,709
Yeah, I was literally
going over the footage
1233
00:58:16,918 --> 00:58:19,626
and saw that flash frame,
and I was like,
1234
00:58:19,834 --> 00:58:22,250
"Oh, my God! What is that?"
And I went to it
1235
00:58:22,459 --> 00:58:24,751
and literally stepped through it
and saw the half-eyed...
1236
00:58:24,959 --> 00:58:27,083
like, he's in mid-blink,
and that's the picture
1237
00:58:27,292 --> 00:58:29,334
that went all around
the entire globe.
1238
00:58:29,542 --> 00:58:32,167
Bryan Singer would carry around
that picture of Nicolas Cage,
1239
00:58:32,375 --> 00:58:35,834
the one where he had the long hair,
and it was obviously a costume test.
1240
00:58:36,042 --> 00:58:37,584
People on-line
don't even understand
1241
00:58:37,792 --> 00:58:40,375
the beginning of the behind-the-scenes
and how things operate.
1242
00:58:40,584 --> 00:58:43,083
Fair enough.
Like, nowadays,
1243
00:58:43,292 --> 00:58:46,584
I do stuff...
If I want to practice something,
1244
00:58:46,792 --> 00:58:48,667
you know, or experiment,
1245
00:58:48,876 --> 00:58:52,042
I just do it privately
with my friends.
1246
00:59:09,417 --> 00:59:12,042
Those are like Halloween co--
you know, that's like kids playing,
1247
00:59:12,250 --> 00:59:13,501
you know,
and they didn't even know.
1248
00:59:13,709 --> 00:59:15,292
"Well, that's just--
that's the wig.
1249
00:59:15,501 --> 00:59:17,167
I combed it.
It's this and it's that."
1250
00:59:17,375 --> 00:59:19,959
- There's a whole bunch of...
- There are things called lighting...
1251
00:59:20,167 --> 00:59:21,959
No, no, no. I mean,
1252
00:59:22,167 --> 00:59:25,626
it's literally like showing your kids
Halloween costumes.
1253
00:59:25,834 --> 00:59:29,000
Back then, you didn't really
think about it. It was just for us.
1254
00:59:29,209 --> 00:59:32,459
Now there's nothing
that's just for you anymore.
1255
00:59:32,667 --> 00:59:35,834
So that's why we do it,
you know,
1256
00:59:36,042 --> 00:59:38,834
three miles under the earth
in a bunker
1257
00:59:39,042 --> 00:59:41,042
with only one camera.
1258
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:03,542
What was your take on Krypton?
1259
01:00:03,751 --> 01:00:07,292
Well, you know,
that was a bit interesting to explore,
1260
01:00:07,501 --> 01:00:09,834
and I had a thing
with Brainiac involved,
1261
01:00:10,042 --> 01:00:12,000
and I thought was interesting.
1262
01:00:12,209 --> 01:00:15,083
Man: Tim had this concept
of him as a creature
1263
01:00:15,292 --> 01:00:17,083
once again who's able to plug in,
1264
01:00:17,292 --> 01:00:19,250
hitting the biomechanical theme,
1265
01:00:19,459 --> 01:00:22,626
who can also pass as human
in some places
1266
01:00:22,834 --> 01:00:25,501
and just be completely bizarre
and alien in others.
1267
01:00:25,709 --> 01:00:27,542
Jackson:
Tim said he felt like
1268
01:00:27,751 --> 01:00:29,918
Brainiac should appear
as the Grim Reaper,
1269
01:00:30,125 --> 01:00:32,459
and so we illustrated him
that way.
1270
01:00:32,667 --> 01:00:35,542
We did a quick sketch,
and Tim acted all that out.
1271
01:00:35,751 --> 01:00:38,334
He throws back his cloak,
and he reveals
1272
01:00:38,542 --> 01:00:40,667
who he is
and what he looks like, truly.
1273
01:00:40,876 --> 01:00:43,542
And then we see that spider-esque form
for the first time.
1274
01:00:43,751 --> 01:00:45,959
Did you ever interact
with anybody from I.L.M.?
1275
01:00:46,167 --> 01:00:50,000
No. We never saw their art.
Those worlds didn't collide, really.
1276
01:00:50,209 --> 01:00:52,042
Warner Brothers came to us
1277
01:00:52,250 --> 01:00:56,000
with the script for "Superman Lives"
I think sometime in '97.
1278
01:00:56,209 --> 01:00:59,167
Tim had the ability
to look at my drawings,
1279
01:00:59,375 --> 01:01:03,292
which were done almost entirely
with colored pencil and markers
1280
01:01:03,501 --> 01:01:06,417
on scraps of cardboard and paper,
1281
01:01:06,626 --> 01:01:10,125
and imagine how it would play
in the picture.
1282
01:01:10,334 --> 01:01:13,751
I kind of identified the sort of
three poles of design,
1283
01:01:13,959 --> 01:01:17,626
and that was the core, the humanoid,
and then the spider creature
1284
01:01:17,834 --> 01:01:20,000
with the holographic head
and the tongue,
1285
01:01:20,209 --> 01:01:23,918
and then the sort of
cobra-cloaked cobra Brainiac.
1286
01:01:24,125 --> 01:01:26,125
We were going to introduce
1287
01:01:26,334 --> 01:01:28,417
the organic, technical,
biomechanical
1288
01:01:28,626 --> 01:01:30,501
look and feel into Krypton.
1289
01:01:30,709 --> 01:01:32,667
The idea of instead of space
being depicted
1290
01:01:32,876 --> 01:01:35,000
as this cold,
technological place,
1291
01:01:35,209 --> 01:01:38,083
there were a lot of organic qualities
to what we were designing
1292
01:01:38,292 --> 01:01:41,334
that made you feel
that it was beautiful,
1293
01:01:41,542 --> 01:01:44,792
made you feel that
there was something poignant
1294
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:46,959
that Clark missed out on
1295
01:01:47,167 --> 01:01:49,000
in his life on Earth.
1296
01:01:49,209 --> 01:01:51,542
My little contribution was
trying to figure out if
1297
01:01:51,751 --> 01:01:54,083
Krypton's a sphere,
it's a planetoid,
1298
01:01:54,292 --> 01:01:57,876
maybe it's split into tectonic plates
that maybe telescope up and down
1299
01:01:58,083 --> 01:02:01,918
or shift or are constantly moving
and reacting to the universe,
1300
01:02:02,125 --> 01:02:05,375
and also the Dr. Seussian
pod shapes
1301
01:02:05,584 --> 01:02:09,667
that maybe dwell underneath
the tectonic plates as they move.
1302
01:02:10,792 --> 01:02:13,209
It was fun playing with the atmosphere
and how that would work.
1303
01:02:13,417 --> 01:02:15,667
And, you know, obviously,
a sphere is the perfect vessel
1304
01:02:15,876 --> 01:02:18,292
to hold an atmosphere inside.
1305
01:02:18,501 --> 01:02:21,542
My particular technique at the time,
before computers,
1306
01:02:21,751 --> 01:02:23,792
was to take black paper and draw
1307
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:25,792
with white or lighter colors
onto it,
1308
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:30,292
so you're basically drawing with light
and how light affects things.
1309
01:02:30,501 --> 01:02:33,000
Rich Heinrich's production designer
1310
01:02:33,209 --> 01:02:36,959
wanted to stay true
to Tim's design sensibilities,
1311
01:02:37,167 --> 01:02:40,542
so we did a lot of bulbous,
spherical things.
1312
01:02:40,751 --> 01:02:43,751
We were playing with
some different color schemes
1313
01:02:43,959 --> 01:02:46,375
that weren't
always seen in film.
1314
01:02:47,584 --> 01:02:49,792
Let's go back and talk
about your interior art
1315
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:51,167
that you did for Krypton.
1316
01:02:51,375 --> 01:02:53,626
Because that had
such a different tone to it.
1317
01:02:53,834 --> 01:02:55,584
What inspired you
with those drawings?
1318
01:02:55,792 --> 01:02:58,584
I think that
there's a sort of--
1319
01:02:58,792 --> 01:03:02,792
and this is something I've felt
on every movie I've worked on--
1320
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:07,209
it kind of has to do
with jamming, like musicians.
1321
01:03:07,417 --> 01:03:09,876
The idea is to sort of
go beyond technique
1322
01:03:10,083 --> 01:03:13,000
and just let yourself drift
and see what the vibe is.
1323
01:03:13,209 --> 01:03:15,751
And I think
what was happening is
1324
01:03:15,959 --> 01:03:19,542
Tim Burton was head
of the project,
1325
01:03:19,751 --> 01:03:22,209
in a sense, organically.
1326
01:03:22,417 --> 01:03:26,125
The team that worked with him
was people like Rich Heinrichs,
1327
01:03:26,334 --> 01:03:29,959
but there was Bill Boes, who was part
of an entirely different team.
1328
01:03:30,167 --> 01:03:33,292
That part of the team was bringing in
a certain knowledge
1329
01:03:33,501 --> 01:03:37,292
about how to make the idea
of Tim Burton's world
1330
01:03:37,501 --> 01:03:39,542
function in three dimensions
1331
01:03:39,751 --> 01:03:41,667
in a fairly realistic world.
1332
01:03:41,876 --> 01:03:44,334
That's all the inspiration we needed,
was to go, "Okay.
1333
01:03:44,542 --> 01:03:47,083
This is what you guys are doing,
so what can we do
1334
01:03:47,292 --> 01:03:49,083
to kind of try to blend in?"
1335
01:03:49,292 --> 01:03:51,876
So I think we were all getting
an organic idea
1336
01:03:52,083 --> 01:03:54,709
of what a Tim Burton adaptation
1337
01:03:54,918 --> 01:03:57,959
of a D.C. comic might look like.
1338
01:03:58,167 --> 01:03:59,542
Schnepp: So
this outfit here...
1339
01:03:59,751 --> 01:04:01,918
Atwood:
That was a Kryptonian partygoer.
1340
01:04:02,125 --> 01:04:04,167
This kind of thing I saw
on the Superman suit,
1341
01:04:04,375 --> 01:04:06,083
like in the regeneration area
there's some kind of--
1342
01:04:06,292 --> 01:04:09,209
Atwood: Yeah. I tried to use
elements that tied it together
1343
01:04:09,417 --> 01:04:13,000
so it was sort of from pieces
of things from the world.
1344
01:04:13,209 --> 01:04:15,459
( Atwood speaking )
1345
01:04:19,083 --> 01:04:22,334
I did a lot of stuff
to get a look for Krypton,
1346
01:04:22,542 --> 01:04:25,709
so again I used these elements
on the ecto thing
1347
01:04:25,918 --> 01:04:28,626
done together as headgear
and a collar thing.
1348
01:04:28,834 --> 01:04:30,834
So I was just figuring out
1349
01:04:31,042 --> 01:04:34,751
ways I could apply the backing
into the healing suit,
1350
01:04:34,959 --> 01:04:38,584
the elements of that,
on the pedestrians in Krypton.
1351
01:04:38,792 --> 01:04:42,584
So she has the element
of the hand thing on her foot.
1352
01:04:42,792 --> 01:04:45,792
It's an interesting exploration.
Obviously never finalized it.
1353
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:48,209
I just saw, like, yeah,
some of the early designs
1354
01:04:48,417 --> 01:04:52,417
had a kind of Moebius/Giger type
of biomechanical aspect to it.
1355
01:04:52,626 --> 01:04:55,584
Would that have ever--
I mean, who knows?
1356
01:04:55,792 --> 01:04:59,083
After a couple more months,
it might've turned into
1357
01:04:59,292 --> 01:05:02,417
"Logan's Run"-like jumpsuits.
Who knows?
1358
01:05:02,626 --> 01:05:06,250
I thought it might lose
the tinfoil aspect of it.
1359
01:05:06,459 --> 01:05:08,876
Schnepp:
Mm. Mm-hmm.
1360
01:05:09,083 --> 01:05:11,167
- The Jiffy-Pop...
- ( chuckles )
1361
01:05:11,375 --> 01:05:14,125
I always expected, like,
1362
01:05:14,334 --> 01:05:17,125
Marlon Brando to just
1363
01:05:18,125 --> 01:05:20,334
- explode into popcorn.
- ( laughs )
1364
01:05:21,584 --> 01:05:23,667
With Tim Burton,
we never really got far enough
1365
01:05:23,876 --> 01:05:26,000
to develop the complexities
about Krypton.
1366
01:05:26,209 --> 01:05:29,459
However,
when Krypton blew up--
1367
01:05:29,667 --> 01:05:32,334
hold on a second.
Just a second.
1368
01:05:32,542 --> 01:05:34,876
Pause for a second.
Hello?
1369
01:05:35,083 --> 01:05:38,292
I'm in the middle of this interview.
What do you need?
1370
01:05:44,292 --> 01:05:46,042
Yeah, do it.
Do it, do it.
1371
01:05:46,250 --> 01:05:47,918
Okay.
Hello?
1372
01:05:48,125 --> 01:05:50,584
Let me just take
this one thing real quick.
1373
01:05:52,501 --> 01:05:54,876
Everybody has heard
about the guy.
1374
01:05:55,083 --> 01:05:57,375
My guys know all about him.
I would love to have lunch with him,
1375
01:05:57,584 --> 01:05:59,959
if you could set that up.
Yeah.
1376
01:06:00,167 --> 01:06:03,626
How much money
did you guys raise for him?
1377
01:06:03,834 --> 01:06:06,125
So I could put some in there
if I wanted to? Okay.
1378
01:06:06,334 --> 01:06:07,417
All right, I love you.
Set this up for me.
1379
01:06:07,626 --> 01:06:10,083
I really appreciate it.
Okay, thanks. Bye.
1380
01:06:10,292 --> 01:06:12,501
- Sorry about that. Life goes on.
- No worries.
1381
01:06:14,417 --> 01:06:17,626
Sylvain was working primarily
on the skull ship.
1382
01:06:17,834 --> 01:06:19,751
He was doing
concept illustration,
1383
01:06:19,959 --> 01:06:22,918
beautiful pen-and-ink
and watercolor illustrations,
1384
01:06:23,125 --> 01:06:24,918
some done in marker.
1385
01:06:25,125 --> 01:06:27,667
This is one of the few times
I remember Tim Burton kind of
1386
01:06:27,876 --> 01:06:30,292
interjecting privately
that he wanted us
1387
01:06:30,501 --> 01:06:33,209
to try and design something,
like an actual vessel.
1388
01:06:33,417 --> 01:06:36,834
But Peters wouldn't have it.
He had a "National Geographic" cover
1389
01:06:37,042 --> 01:06:39,542
with an Australopithecus africanus,
1390
01:06:39,751 --> 01:06:41,626
you know, the Lucy thing,
1391
01:06:41,834 --> 01:06:44,083
and I think he pinned it
on our wall and said,
1392
01:06:44,292 --> 01:06:45,918
"It's a skull ship.
I want a skull ship.
1393
01:06:46,125 --> 01:06:47,501
Skull."
( grunts )
1394
01:06:47,709 --> 01:06:51,667
It obviously was a skull
that floated in space,
1395
01:06:51,876 --> 01:06:55,250
kind of like "Zardoz," that big face
that floats in the beginning of that.
1396
01:06:55,459 --> 01:06:58,417
The huge eye holes are the ports
that they look out,
1397
01:06:58,626 --> 01:07:01,501
and there's these little guys,
these little creatures about this big,
1398
01:07:01,709 --> 01:07:03,959
and in scale,
the eyes are huge.
1399
01:07:04,167 --> 01:07:06,542
I did some sketch models
of the skull ship
1400
01:07:06,751 --> 01:07:08,626
out of cardboard really quick.
1401
01:07:08,834 --> 01:07:10,667
That was going to be built
1402
01:07:10,876 --> 01:07:15,209
on Warner Brothers stage 16,
which is their biggest stage.
1403
01:07:16,334 --> 01:07:20,167
So introduced some of the design
elements from kind of a meld
1404
01:07:20,375 --> 01:07:23,417
between Giger and Burton.
1405
01:07:23,626 --> 01:07:25,501
That segued into
1406
01:07:25,709 --> 01:07:28,292
the skull ship
being sculpted by Bill Boes.
1407
01:07:28,501 --> 01:07:31,167
The skull ship itself was
probably about this big,
1408
01:07:31,375 --> 01:07:34,876
and then Rick wanted to have
all this really cool, like, tubing
1409
01:07:35,083 --> 01:07:37,000
and mechanical stuff
on the outside,
1410
01:07:37,209 --> 01:07:39,250
So him and I actually
jumped in the car,
1411
01:07:39,459 --> 01:07:41,292
got some parts
from the train store,
1412
01:07:41,501 --> 01:07:43,501
and we just started
gluing things on,
1413
01:07:43,709 --> 01:07:46,417
and it just sort of
took on its own identity.
1414
01:07:46,626 --> 01:07:50,167
Heinrichs: The extra of the skull ship
actually was an incredible sculpture.
1415
01:07:50,375 --> 01:07:52,876
that I believe ended up
over at Jon Peters' house.
1416
01:07:53,083 --> 01:07:55,292
Hey, Bill Boes,
I found the skull ship.
1417
01:07:55,501 --> 01:07:57,167
It's right here.
1418
01:07:57,375 --> 01:07:58,792
In the original concept,
1419
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:01,959
Krypton blew up into
thousands of little pieces.
1420
01:08:02,167 --> 01:08:05,709
They all became colonies
and all had their own monsters.
1421
01:08:05,918 --> 01:08:08,209
All these monsters
were in the skull ship.
1422
01:08:08,417 --> 01:08:09,667
Right, they were called
the menagerie.
1423
01:08:09,876 --> 01:08:11,959
The menagerie.
And it was like a zoo.
1424
01:08:12,167 --> 01:08:15,209
And we had all of these monsters that
were in the back of that big skull ship
1425
01:08:15,417 --> 01:08:18,292
which descended into Earth,
which would've been amazing.
1426
01:08:18,501 --> 01:08:22,083
Johnson: We did hundreds of designs
for aliens in Brainiac's ship.
1427
01:08:22,292 --> 01:08:24,167
We worked for months
and months and months designing,
1428
01:08:24,375 --> 01:08:26,167
and got pretty excited
about puppetry,
1429
01:08:26,375 --> 01:08:28,167
strange hybrid blends,
1430
01:08:28,375 --> 01:08:30,417
digital removal of certain aspects.
1431
01:08:30,626 --> 01:08:32,918
Kerry Gammill,
which was a perfect choice
1432
01:08:33,125 --> 01:08:35,375
from his "Superman" days
1433
01:08:35,584 --> 01:08:38,876
as an artist for the comic,
designed hundreds of designs for us.
1434
01:08:39,083 --> 01:08:41,584
I spent several weeks
just drawing these things.
1435
01:08:41,792 --> 01:08:45,042
They put a little sign
on the design room door
1436
01:08:45,250 --> 01:08:47,417
that said,
"Kerry's Fortress of Solitude,"
1437
01:08:47,626 --> 01:08:49,709
because no one was allowed
to come in there.
1438
01:08:49,918 --> 01:08:52,417
And then I went even a step further.
I'm a huge Brom fan.
1439
01:08:52,626 --> 01:08:54,751
I thought, what can it hurt to
call up Brom and see if he's interested?
1440
01:08:54,959 --> 01:08:56,459
And he was.
( snaps )
1441
01:08:56,667 --> 01:08:58,751
There was essentially
a mad-scientist
1442
01:08:58,959 --> 01:09:01,083
part of an alien race
that was coming in,
1443
01:09:01,292 --> 01:09:03,751
and they needed all these characters
brought to life.
1444
01:09:03,959 --> 01:09:07,042
So they brought me on board
and set me loose to start creating.
1445
01:09:07,250 --> 01:09:09,584
I could put a dark sense
of humor to them,
1446
01:09:09,792 --> 01:09:12,584
and there were elements-- again,
this was a mad-scientist's lab--
1447
01:09:12,792 --> 01:09:15,918
so there was a lot
of experimentation going on.
1448
01:09:16,125 --> 01:09:19,083
Brainiac had gone through
and collected all these specimens,
1449
01:09:19,292 --> 01:09:21,667
which is why he was
coming to Earth.
1450
01:09:21,876 --> 01:09:25,918
There's one where it's basically
like a giant dinosaur creature
1451
01:09:26,125 --> 01:09:29,209
attacking Superman inside
of a spaceship-- where is that from?
1452
01:09:29,417 --> 01:09:30,751
I just made it up.
It was like
1453
01:09:30,959 --> 01:09:33,083
they just wanted us
to go crazy.
1454
01:09:33,292 --> 01:09:35,167
They said,
"Just draw monsters."
1455
01:09:35,375 --> 01:09:37,792
Jon Peters liked
the ones that I didn't like.
1456
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:39,125
He would come in
and look at them,
1457
01:09:39,334 --> 01:09:40,501
and I would say,
"Look at this. Isn't this cool?"
1458
01:09:40,709 --> 01:09:41,751
And he'd go,
"I like this one here."
1459
01:09:41,959 --> 01:09:45,209
I think the nickname I heard
for him was "Loudmouth,"
1460
01:09:45,417 --> 01:09:47,542
'cause you could just
hear the bellowing
1461
01:09:47,751 --> 01:09:50,000
coming from all the way down the hall
whenever he showed up
1462
01:09:50,209 --> 01:09:53,959
with an army
of women and children.
1463
01:09:54,417 --> 01:09:57,167
Jon Peters came by a couple times,
and he had his own ideas?
1464
01:09:57,375 --> 01:10:00,167
He'd bring a little entourage of people
in the room with him,
1465
01:10:00,375 --> 01:10:02,292
and it was very disruptive,
1466
01:10:02,501 --> 01:10:05,792
and everybody kind of went,
"Oh, God, here he comes."
1467
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:07,834
He'd bring these kids
into the office
1468
01:10:08,042 --> 01:10:11,375
who would look at our drawings,
never look at us,
1469
01:10:11,584 --> 01:10:15,459
and start commenting, going,
"Oh, I like that one. I hate this."
1470
01:10:15,667 --> 01:10:18,042
Usually I bring my kids--
1471
01:10:18,250 --> 01:10:20,792
because--
I have four kids--
1472
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:23,250
because you get very jaded
1473
01:10:23,459 --> 01:10:25,709
in a studio atmosphere.
1474
01:10:25,918 --> 01:10:29,334
It's very controlled.
Most people are being paid by you,
1475
01:10:29,542 --> 01:10:32,667
so most people love everything,
nobody gives you an honest opinion.
1476
01:10:32,876 --> 01:10:35,209
But kids give you
a really good honest opinion.
1477
01:10:35,417 --> 01:10:38,542
I would be working on some of
Tim's designs some days,
1478
01:10:38,751 --> 01:10:41,626
and Peters might
come through the office,
1479
01:10:41,834 --> 01:10:44,334
and he might see that
and then say,
1480
01:10:44,542 --> 01:10:46,542
"We're not doing any of that."
1481
01:10:46,751 --> 01:10:49,042
"No, I don't want that.
I want to see muscles."
1482
01:10:49,250 --> 01:10:52,209
Every once in a while,
he'd come in and want to demonstrate
1483
01:10:52,417 --> 01:10:55,375
some new jiu-jitsu move he had learned
in front of these women,
1484
01:10:55,584 --> 01:10:57,459
so he would call
Rick Heinrichs in the hall
1485
01:10:57,667 --> 01:10:59,626
and wrestle him to the ground
in front of us.
1486
01:10:59,834 --> 01:11:02,584
So one day Rick comes
into the art department, he goes,
1487
01:11:02,792 --> 01:11:05,709
"Man, we just had a meeting
1488
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:08,417
with Jon Peters,
1489
01:11:08,626 --> 01:11:12,042
and he-- John Dexter,
1490
01:11:12,250 --> 01:11:15,501
the art director, was trying
to explain something to him,
1491
01:11:15,709 --> 01:11:17,918
and he put me, like,
in a headlock.
1492
01:11:18,125 --> 01:11:20,334
Man, it hurt!"
1493
01:11:20,542 --> 01:11:23,375
You being the producer, you'd come in,
look at some art, and then, you know...
1494
01:11:23,584 --> 01:11:26,083
- Choke 'em out?
- Choke somebody out.
1495
01:11:26,292 --> 01:11:31,125
Well, I was more
creating an energy
1496
01:11:31,334 --> 01:11:33,375
of an action hero
1497
01:11:33,584 --> 01:11:37,417
and a world that most men
don't know anything about.
1498
01:11:37,626 --> 01:11:39,334
I mean,
you get both sides of it.
1499
01:11:39,542 --> 01:11:41,584
Sometimes he'd get somebody
in a headlock.
1500
01:11:41,792 --> 01:11:44,959
One time he kissed me
full on the lips.
1501
01:11:45,167 --> 01:11:47,083
Now, which is better?
I don't know.
1502
01:11:47,292 --> 01:11:50,501
I think I might've preferred
the headlock, but, you know.
1503
01:11:50,709 --> 01:11:53,918
Or kicked in the face,
but whatever.
1504
01:11:54,125 --> 01:11:56,334
I wanted what it's like
to break your nose--
1505
01:11:56,542 --> 01:12:00,542
I've been in 500 fights--
to break your hands,
1506
01:12:00,751 --> 01:12:04,125
to bleed, to taste
someone else's blood...
1507
01:12:04,334 --> 01:12:06,626
I wanted that in these movies.
1508
01:12:06,834 --> 01:12:10,542
It's shooting fish in a barrel.
We take a paycheck from his studio.
1509
01:12:10,751 --> 01:12:13,209
Of course he can humiliate us.
1510
01:12:13,417 --> 01:12:17,083
I mean, that's easy, you know?
I'd like to see him wrestle a shark.
1511
01:12:17,292 --> 01:12:19,626
( both laugh )
1512
01:12:20,918 --> 01:12:24,167
I remember that Jon--
at the time, he had three
1513
01:12:24,375 --> 01:12:28,167
separate houses up Benedict Canyon
that he was renovating.
1514
01:12:28,375 --> 01:12:31,042
Tim and were always driving up there,
getting sort of uptight,
1515
01:12:31,250 --> 01:12:32,751
'cause you could
never quite predict
1516
01:12:32,959 --> 01:12:34,709
what it was going to be this time--
it was always something.
1517
01:12:34,918 --> 01:12:39,000
And then Tim and I got into a conflict
with Lorenzo di Bonaventura.
1518
01:12:39,209 --> 01:12:41,042
I'd been told that Terry Semel
1519
01:12:41,250 --> 01:12:43,209
had never read the script
and he finally did,
1520
01:12:43,417 --> 01:12:45,375
and he said,
"What is this? I hate this."
1521
01:12:45,584 --> 01:12:47,918
I was also told
that Warners was changing
1522
01:12:48,125 --> 01:12:50,876
its strategy in terms of the slate,
1523
01:12:51,083 --> 01:12:53,125
and they didn't want to swing
for the fences anymore.
1524
01:12:53,334 --> 01:12:56,459
They'd gotten burned on--
oh, I guess on "Batman Forever," maybe.
1525
01:12:56,667 --> 01:12:58,751
- Schnepp: "Batman & Robin."
- "Batman & Robin."
1526
01:12:58,959 --> 01:13:00,876
And Tim has always been upset
about the fact that
1527
01:13:01,083 --> 01:13:04,000
the "Superman" project was doomed
by Joel Schumacher,
1528
01:13:04,209 --> 01:13:06,042
who fucked up
Tim's own franchise
1529
01:13:06,250 --> 01:13:08,167
and then fucked up
Tim's Superman movie.
1530
01:13:08,375 --> 01:13:10,209
And one day, Tim said,
"Can you come over?"
1531
01:13:10,417 --> 01:13:13,167
This is three or four months
into the process.
1532
01:13:13,375 --> 01:13:15,334
and I kinda said,
"What's going on?"
1533
01:13:15,542 --> 01:13:17,334
And he started
in this sheepish way to say,
1534
01:13:17,542 --> 01:13:19,083
"Well, you know, the Warners brass
1535
01:13:19,292 --> 01:13:22,584
and Lorenzo and Terry Semel..."
1536
01:13:22,792 --> 01:13:25,334
And I kind of interrupted him.
I saw where it was going.
1537
01:13:25,542 --> 01:13:29,000
I said, "Tim, you're firing me."
And he said, "Well, they told me to."
1538
01:13:29,209 --> 01:13:32,250
This is where it gets into that
sort of gray area of studio,
1539
01:13:32,459 --> 01:13:35,209
the black-hole development.
1540
01:13:35,417 --> 01:13:38,459
It's the hardest thing to describe,
but you go through it almost every time.
1541
01:13:38,667 --> 01:13:40,626
Why, I don't know.
1542
01:13:40,834 --> 01:13:43,250
It's just that I've been involved in
so many scripts where you're fixing it,
1543
01:13:43,459 --> 01:13:46,375
but you're basically
just smothering the life out of it.
1544
01:13:46,584 --> 01:13:49,459
And when you go down that track,
it's not a good one,
1545
01:13:49,667 --> 01:13:51,834
but it happens
a lot of the time.
1546
01:13:52,042 --> 01:13:54,000
You know, he told me that
they were gonna
1547
01:13:54,209 --> 01:13:56,709
hire somebody else,
which was Dan Gilroy, I think.
1548
01:13:56,918 --> 01:13:59,584
The first meeting was
at Jon Peters' house up in Bel Air,
1549
01:13:59,792 --> 01:14:01,918
and we started talking
about the current script,
1550
01:14:02,125 --> 01:14:05,751
and it was the idea
of going deeper with the characters
1551
01:14:05,959 --> 01:14:07,584
and working on the action,
1552
01:14:07,792 --> 01:14:09,918
and just-- it became a sense that
the script wasn't where they wanted it.
1553
01:14:10,125 --> 01:14:12,834
And the next day,
I was at Warner Brothers,
1554
01:14:13,042 --> 01:14:14,792
going to meet with Tim
at the production office,
1555
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:17,584
and it became a daily,
for the next year,
1556
01:14:17,792 --> 01:14:19,334
it became a seven-day-a-week job.
1557
01:14:19,709 --> 01:14:22,375
And I think what was brilliant
about what Tim did
1558
01:14:22,584 --> 01:14:24,667
and what he wanted to explore
is to take
1559
01:14:24,876 --> 01:14:27,501
a classic superhero character
1560
01:14:27,709 --> 01:14:30,459
who is beyond emotional turmoil.
1561
01:14:30,667 --> 01:14:34,334
What Tim latched onto was,
"Wait a minute. He's an outsider."
1562
01:14:34,542 --> 01:14:36,751
Because Superman is unique.
He's not of the world.
1563
01:14:36,959 --> 01:14:39,083
Batman's of the world.
Spider-Man's of the world.
1564
01:14:39,292 --> 01:14:41,709
All of the X-Men are of the world.
They're mutants of the world.
1565
01:14:41,918 --> 01:14:44,501
It was the emotional angst
of somebody realizing
1566
01:14:44,709 --> 01:14:46,792
that they are not of us.
1567
01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:49,751
I think people who are drawn to fantasy
very much are drawn to fantasy
1568
01:14:49,959 --> 01:14:53,626
because it's literally an escape from
the bullshit nightmare societal damage
1569
01:14:53,834 --> 01:14:56,876
that gets created
by growing up.
1570
01:14:57,083 --> 01:14:59,042
In the later draft that I have,
1571
01:14:59,250 --> 01:15:01,542
Kay turns into Jor-El.
1572
01:15:01,751 --> 01:15:04,209
Gilroy: Our Kay, I think,
went much farther in the sense
1573
01:15:04,417 --> 01:15:07,501
of saying that somehow there was
a Kryptonian technology
1574
01:15:07,709 --> 01:15:10,667
that imbued
the essence of Jor-El,
1575
01:15:10,876 --> 01:15:13,792
that went beyond--
that went beyond just a projection.
1576
01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:15,918
I was playing
with looking at owls
1577
01:15:16,125 --> 01:15:18,334
as a kind of a touchstone.
1578
01:15:18,542 --> 01:15:21,417
Sort of like Brainiac was cobra,
I felt like Kay was owl
1579
01:15:21,626 --> 01:15:24,334
and was designed to
not only sort of
1580
01:15:24,542 --> 01:15:27,209
nurture and envelop Superman
when he was a baby,
1581
01:15:27,417 --> 01:15:30,501
but to teach him,
to train him, to befriend him.
1582
01:15:30,709 --> 01:15:32,751
And literally,
visually,
1583
01:15:32,959 --> 01:15:34,709
after Superman is killed
by Doomsday,
1584
01:15:34,918 --> 01:15:38,209
Kay resurrects him
and becomes the new costume.
1585
01:15:38,417 --> 01:15:42,250
I always felt that having Kay gave us
a more physical presence of Jor-El.
1586
01:15:42,459 --> 01:15:44,709
Really, the focus was on
1587
01:15:44,918 --> 01:15:46,751
Nic's character on Superman
1588
01:15:46,959 --> 01:15:49,501
and Clark and that part
of the story.
1589
01:15:49,709 --> 01:15:51,709
( Cage speaking )
1590
01:15:57,250 --> 01:16:00,334
( Burton speaking )
1591
01:16:19,250 --> 01:16:20,959
( Burton laughs )
1592
01:16:22,542 --> 01:16:25,334
It starts off with Clark Kent as a guy
who works at the newspaper,
1593
01:16:25,542 --> 01:16:27,542
but he had an apartment,
and inside his apartment
1594
01:16:27,751 --> 01:16:30,083
he had a separate place where it was
sort of his changing room,
1595
01:16:30,292 --> 01:16:32,626
his little man-cave,
and I remember on the wall
1596
01:16:32,834 --> 01:16:35,417
he had a tremendous number
of newspaper articles.
1597
01:16:35,626 --> 01:16:36,918
You could tell there'd been
a lot of research
1598
01:16:37,125 --> 01:16:38,542
that he'd done
trying to figure out
1599
01:16:38,751 --> 01:16:40,417
what might have caused
his condition,
1600
01:16:40,626 --> 01:16:43,417
that maybe this was some sort
of medical condition that he had.
1601
01:16:43,626 --> 01:16:47,000
So, early on,
when Lex, through Lexcorp,
1602
01:16:47,209 --> 01:16:50,250
uncovers the fragment of spaceship
near the Clark family farm,
1603
01:16:50,459 --> 01:16:53,125
the second that Clark Kent
realizes that he's an alien,
1604
01:16:53,334 --> 01:16:57,250
it is utterly, utterly devastating
emotionally to him.
1605
01:16:57,459 --> 01:16:58,709
And these are things
that dominated
1606
01:16:58,918 --> 01:17:00,501
the conversations
that I would have with Tim.
1607
01:17:00,709 --> 01:17:03,501
Both Tim and Nic
had this idea of, like--
1608
01:17:03,709 --> 01:17:06,834
Clark Kent was going to be
a bigger freak than Superman, almost.
1609
01:17:07,042 --> 01:17:08,083
Like, Clark Kent
would be the alien.
1610
01:17:08,292 --> 01:17:10,626
( Cage speaking )
1611
01:17:11,626 --> 01:17:13,459
( Atwood speaking )
1612
01:17:13,751 --> 01:17:15,042
( all laugh )
1613
01:17:16,667 --> 01:17:18,375
( Burton speaks )
1614
01:17:19,876 --> 01:17:22,292
Yeah, I guess the equivalent
of Clark Kent now would be
1615
01:17:22,501 --> 01:17:24,584
those guys, like,
in Silicon Valley,
1616
01:17:24,792 --> 01:17:27,334
like those kind of brainy guys
that are sort of--
1617
01:17:27,542 --> 01:17:29,209
who knows what
their secret life is?
1618
01:17:29,417 --> 01:17:31,167
( Cage speaking )
1619
01:17:31,375 --> 01:17:32,918
( Burton speaking )
1620
01:17:57,459 --> 01:17:59,417
It's a love story,
1621
01:17:59,626 --> 01:18:02,542
and we tried to make it
as simple as that.
1622
01:18:03,709 --> 01:18:06,959
But he did have a dark side,
like many men do.
1623
01:18:07,167 --> 01:18:09,375
On the other hand,
he was extremely vulnerable
1624
01:18:09,584 --> 01:18:12,000
because he really didn't have anybody
and he was alone.
1625
01:18:12,209 --> 01:18:15,209
She gave him the strength
of feeling,
1626
01:18:15,417 --> 01:18:17,959
you know, that he was
who he was
1627
01:18:18,167 --> 01:18:19,918
and that she loved him anyhow.
1628
01:18:20,125 --> 01:18:22,626
The relationship we established
early on was stalled.
1629
01:18:22,834 --> 01:18:25,542
He had this deep concern--
"What if we have a baby?
1630
01:18:25,751 --> 01:18:28,667
What if this baby punches
his way out of you, like 'Alien'?
1631
01:18:28,876 --> 01:18:30,417
What if the baby kills you?"
1632
01:18:30,626 --> 01:18:33,042
He doesn't share it,
but you can tell this is the dilemma.
1633
01:18:33,250 --> 01:18:35,292
di Bonaventura: He was going
to get engaged to Lois,
1634
01:18:35,501 --> 01:18:37,417
and he was sitting
in a restaurant
1635
01:18:37,626 --> 01:18:40,167
and literally pumping
his leg like this, you know?
1636
01:18:40,375 --> 01:18:43,000
And the water
on everybody's table was shaking.
1637
01:18:43,209 --> 01:18:46,667
He's so anxiety-ridden
that he leaves the restaurant--
1638
01:18:46,876 --> 01:18:48,834
it's, I think-- it was
on top of a building--
1639
01:18:49,042 --> 01:18:51,125
and then flew around the building,
like, 30 times,
1640
01:18:51,334 --> 01:18:52,584
trying to burn off steam.
1641
01:18:52,792 --> 01:18:53,918
He doesn't change his suit.
1642
01:18:54,125 --> 01:18:55,751
He doesn't look
for a phone booth or anything.
1643
01:18:55,959 --> 01:18:57,792
He just burns out of his suit.
1644
01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:00,709
He just takes off,
and that in itself is enough
1645
01:19:00,918 --> 01:19:02,834
to just shred the clothes.
1646
01:19:03,042 --> 01:19:06,417
Tim wanted more of a visceral punch
that you saw
1647
01:19:06,626 --> 01:19:10,959
in those Max Fleischer cartoons,
which is sort of an adaptation
1648
01:19:11,167 --> 01:19:14,125
of what Siegel and Shuster's
original "Superman" was.
1649
01:19:14,334 --> 01:19:16,584
That was our Kal-El.
That was our "Superman."
1650
01:19:16,792 --> 01:19:18,167
He's not somebody who can fly--
1651
01:19:18,375 --> 01:19:20,626
Tim said he didn't like
the idea of-- of--
1652
01:19:20,834 --> 01:19:24,417
of the sort of magical flying,
of just floating in space,
1653
01:19:24,626 --> 01:19:27,542
and so he said, "I want to ground it
and tie it to physics.
1654
01:19:27,751 --> 01:19:31,042
And so if he jumps
three miles in the air,
1655
01:19:31,250 --> 01:19:33,125
he comes right back down
like a bullet."
1656
01:19:33,334 --> 01:19:35,000
The first thing I'd done
for that was to do
1657
01:19:35,209 --> 01:19:39,042
almost a Superman parkour sequence
on a grand scale,
1658
01:19:39,250 --> 01:19:43,125
so it shows Superman
leaping across the city.
1659
01:19:43,584 --> 01:19:45,876
It might take him
five or six leaps,
1660
01:19:46,083 --> 01:19:47,459
but he makes each leap
1661
01:19:47,667 --> 01:19:50,626
being the equivalent
of two miles or three miles.
1662
01:19:50,834 --> 01:19:54,083
I'm much more interested in, like,
somebody flying through the clouds
1663
01:19:54,292 --> 01:19:57,250
and, you know, feeling the texture
of that on their face.
1664
01:19:57,459 --> 01:19:59,667
For me,
it was very important--
1665
01:19:59,876 --> 01:20:02,292
was the idea of
whatever was going on,
1666
01:20:02,501 --> 01:20:04,876
the feeling of
1667
01:20:05,083 --> 01:20:07,584
what it would feel like
to be like that kind of a character.
1668
01:20:07,792 --> 01:20:12,209
So I was trying to get more
into the sort of visceral feel of it,
1669
01:20:12,417 --> 01:20:14,042
uh, you know,
1670
01:20:14,250 --> 01:20:17,334
no matter what other bullshit
was going on.
1671
01:20:17,542 --> 01:20:19,501
How do you make flying cool
1672
01:20:19,709 --> 01:20:21,584
and also affordable?
1673
01:20:21,792 --> 01:20:22,834
Man:
I.L.M. got involved.
1674
01:20:23,042 --> 01:20:24,542
They were going to do
the visuals on the movie.
1675
01:20:24,751 --> 01:20:27,375
So they ended up coming down
and we did some tests
1676
01:20:27,584 --> 01:20:28,876
of just shooting this stuff
1677
01:20:29,083 --> 01:20:32,209
and then figuring out how
the cape was gonna fly.
1678
01:20:32,417 --> 01:20:33,751
Atwood:
We did a lot of testing with that,
1679
01:20:33,959 --> 01:20:35,834
and I think, you know,
for the time,
1680
01:20:36,042 --> 01:20:37,459
the guys came up
with some really great stuff.
1681
01:20:37,667 --> 01:20:38,959
It was pretty exciting.
1682
01:20:39,167 --> 01:20:41,417
It was still early in the process,
and we had some evolution
1683
01:20:41,626 --> 01:20:43,834
to be done to the techniques
that Tim was going for,
1684
01:20:44,042 --> 01:20:45,375
but we were gonna get there.
1685
01:20:46,834 --> 01:20:50,334
Then watching Nic Cage
in an outfit land
1686
01:20:50,542 --> 01:20:53,626
was kind of like, "Whoa.
There's Superman, the Nic Cage version."
1687
01:20:53,834 --> 01:20:56,417
That moment I remember
really acutely, 'cause it really--
1688
01:20:56,626 --> 01:20:59,501
It was like, "Whoa, oh.
We really are doing this.
1689
01:20:59,709 --> 01:21:01,584
You know, here we are."
1690
01:21:01,792 --> 01:21:04,042
There was lot of, like,
"at-odds"
1691
01:21:04,250 --> 01:21:08,292
between the studio,
the producers, and ourselves.
1692
01:21:08,501 --> 01:21:09,501
We were just like,
"Well--"
1693
01:21:09,709 --> 01:21:11,292
You know, there was
a push to have, like,
1694
01:21:11,501 --> 01:21:13,959
Superman having a lot of,
like, kung-fu fights.
1695
01:21:14,167 --> 01:21:17,250
It's like, well, he's not going to get
into a kung-fu fight
1696
01:21:17,459 --> 01:21:18,709
with a bunch of ninjas.
1697
01:21:18,918 --> 01:21:21,417
And, you know, no--
( grumbles )
1698
01:21:21,626 --> 01:21:22,751
There's this whole sequence
1699
01:21:22,959 --> 01:21:28,125
of Luthor's henchmen polluting
the waterways of Metropolis,
1700
01:21:28,334 --> 01:21:30,751
and Superman at some point
1701
01:21:30,959 --> 01:21:32,709
has to contend with
a group of ninjas.
1702
01:21:32,918 --> 01:21:35,876
( music playing )
1703
01:21:41,959 --> 01:21:44,459
I think they're there
as sort of, um...
1704
01:21:45,626 --> 01:21:48,083
( music playing )
1705
01:21:52,083 --> 01:21:54,667
- I'm gonna stop. Can we go back?
- Yeah.
1706
01:21:54,876 --> 01:21:56,542
I'm just trying to think
what they were there for.
1707
01:21:56,751 --> 01:21:58,709
- I don't remember.
- They had just seen "The Matrix,"
1708
01:21:58,918 --> 01:22:00,667
and they were like,
"We won!"
1709
01:22:00,876 --> 01:22:02,501
I really don't remember.
1710
01:22:02,709 --> 01:22:04,083
"You're the one!"
Superman's like, "I'm not Neo."
1711
01:22:04,292 --> 01:22:06,125
I think I thought
it was just absurd.
1712
01:22:06,334 --> 01:22:08,918
( music playing )
1713
01:22:13,042 --> 01:22:14,626
We went scouting
when we decided on
1714
01:22:14,834 --> 01:22:17,584
where we were going to shoot
a lot of the exteriors.
1715
01:22:17,792 --> 01:22:19,667
Most of it's gonna be done
on stage, obviously.
1716
01:22:19,876 --> 01:22:23,542
And we ended up going to Pittsburgh,
and Tim fell in love with it.
1717
01:22:23,751 --> 01:22:24,918
Burton: Pittsburgh--
I don't know-- just had
1718
01:22:25,125 --> 01:22:30,417
an interesting feel to some of it
and felt kind of right.
1719
01:22:30,626 --> 01:22:33,250
Man: A lot of our ideas
were all about getting these locations
1720
01:22:33,459 --> 01:22:35,334
and expanding them,
1721
01:22:35,542 --> 01:22:37,501
extending the sets
with visual effects.
1722
01:22:37,709 --> 01:22:40,125
There's the P.P.G. building
that was going to be
1723
01:22:40,334 --> 01:22:43,876
Lex Luthor's place.
You know, his lair.
1724
01:22:44,083 --> 01:22:46,334
Burton:
Lex himself was going to appear
1725
01:22:46,542 --> 01:22:50,125
almost at one
with his office that way.
1726
01:22:50,334 --> 01:22:53,209
Carson: We wanted similar proportions
to the "Daily Planet,"
1727
01:22:53,417 --> 01:22:57,000
so it was kind of the counterpart--
more gothic, more weighty,
1728
01:22:57,209 --> 01:22:59,167
slightly more villainous.
1729
01:22:59,375 --> 01:23:01,584
- What about Perry White's office?
- Instead of it being
1730
01:23:01,792 --> 01:23:04,375
the cliché newspaper office,
1731
01:23:04,584 --> 01:23:06,501
where it's basically the floor
1732
01:23:06,709 --> 01:23:09,125
surrounded with
the editors' offices,
1733
01:23:09,334 --> 01:23:11,417
we wanted Perry himself
also to have
1734
01:23:11,626 --> 01:23:13,542
a kind of vaunted sense
of himself.
1735
01:23:13,751 --> 01:23:17,834
My last interaction or crossover
with Superman
1736
01:23:18,042 --> 01:23:20,334
was when
we were making "Dogma."
1737
01:23:20,542 --> 01:23:22,918
In 1998,
we were in Pittsburgh,
1738
01:23:23,125 --> 01:23:26,167
and we went to use a building
for our MovieCorp.
1739
01:23:26,375 --> 01:23:29,042
They were like, "You can't use that.
That building's being held."
1740
01:23:29,250 --> 01:23:30,584
And I was like, "For what?"
1741
01:23:30,792 --> 01:23:31,834
And they're like,
"That's going to be Lexcorp
1742
01:23:32,042 --> 01:23:33,375
for the Tim Burton
'Superman' movie."
1743
01:23:33,584 --> 01:23:35,000
And I was like,
"Get out of here."
1744
01:23:35,209 --> 01:23:38,042
I knew Tim Burton loved kaiju
and Godzilla stuff.
1745
01:23:38,250 --> 01:23:41,876
Doomsday can be our kaiju,
our Hulk-plus thing.
1746
01:23:42,083 --> 01:23:45,417
So what if this was a thing,
an organism that destroys,
1747
01:23:45,626 --> 01:23:49,542
but it propels
its inanimate matter
1748
01:23:49,751 --> 01:23:51,751
with an engine of energy?
1749
01:23:51,959 --> 01:23:54,918
So this rock creature punches you
with laser rocket power
1750
01:23:55,125 --> 01:23:56,959
driving the punch,
and it's sharp,
1751
01:23:57,167 --> 01:23:59,042
then maybe I kind of create
a power source.
1752
01:23:59,250 --> 01:24:01,542
Is is some sort of energy core
in the middle of it?
1753
01:24:01,751 --> 01:24:03,542
Maybe its exoskeleton?
1754
01:24:03,751 --> 01:24:07,417
Let's also take it out of human anatomy
and give it a second pair of arms.
1755
01:24:07,626 --> 01:24:10,292
And Doomsday was supposed
to be cut in half
1756
01:24:10,501 --> 01:24:13,083
but some big ventilation fan
or something under there,
1757
01:24:13,292 --> 01:24:16,834
and so we were doing some designs
where he's cut into two pieces,
1758
01:24:17,042 --> 01:24:19,501
but then they sort of form
two Doomsdays
1759
01:24:19,709 --> 01:24:22,042
and then they sort of meld
back into another one.
1760
01:24:22,250 --> 01:24:25,501
In the comic book,
he was more of a big, muscular thing
1761
01:24:25,709 --> 01:24:27,292
with kind of bony protrusions,
1762
01:24:27,501 --> 01:24:29,959
and I tried to get a little of that
into the concept,
1763
01:24:30,167 --> 01:24:32,292
but they really just wanted
a big monster.
1764
01:24:32,501 --> 01:24:34,334
I don't know what stuck.
1765
01:24:34,542 --> 01:24:36,417
I mean, we were
all over the place.
1766
01:24:36,626 --> 01:24:38,375
So many hundreds
of designs done.
1767
01:24:38,584 --> 01:24:42,751
I was reacting
to what Tim put down initially.
1768
01:24:42,959 --> 01:24:45,834
He gave me a sketch
of a creature that had multiple--
1769
01:24:46,042 --> 01:24:49,626
its entire body was covered
with faces and heads,
1770
01:24:49,834 --> 01:24:52,626
And he explained
that during the fight,
1771
01:24:52,834 --> 01:24:55,250
some of these faces and heads
would morph and change
1772
01:24:55,542 --> 01:24:58,959
into people that Kal-El,
that Superman, knew personally.
1773
01:24:59,167 --> 01:25:01,626
It would be somewhat unsettling
to be fighting a creature,
1774
01:25:01,834 --> 01:25:04,167
and all of a sudden you see
Lois Lane's face there
1775
01:25:04,375 --> 01:25:06,501
or you see Perry White's face there.
1776
01:25:06,709 --> 01:25:09,626
The one thing I was really interested
in seeing the designs develop
1777
01:25:09,834 --> 01:25:12,709
was the Superman-Doomsday
battle in the subway.
1778
01:25:12,918 --> 01:25:15,209
I think it was underground.
A lot of it happened underground.
1779
01:25:15,417 --> 01:25:17,667
And just the real feeling of
1780
01:25:17,876 --> 01:25:20,959
power and force
and strength and destruction.
1781
01:25:21,167 --> 01:25:24,417
The concept designs for that scene
were quite striking.
1782
01:25:24,626 --> 01:25:26,626
The fight with Doomsday
was chilling,
1783
01:25:26,834 --> 01:25:28,959
because you had this guy
who you'd been tracking
1784
01:25:29,167 --> 01:25:31,042
for the first 50 pages
of the movie,
1785
01:25:31,250 --> 01:25:34,250
and you knew emotionally
he was dead.
1786
01:25:34,459 --> 01:25:37,000
He was emotionally devastated.
1787
01:25:37,209 --> 01:25:40,751
You could see, as the fight
was going on, that he was losing.
1788
01:25:40,959 --> 01:25:43,626
And you could see
that it was just all
1789
01:25:43,834 --> 01:25:44,918
being taken away from him.
1790
01:25:45,125 --> 01:25:47,375
And again, it goes
to this emotional power
1791
01:25:47,584 --> 01:25:48,751
that comes from this decision,
1792
01:25:48,959 --> 01:25:52,667
this primal decision that Tim makes
to want to go this route.
1793
01:25:52,876 --> 01:25:55,167
And I remember writing
the death scene,
1794
01:25:55,375 --> 01:25:58,125
and as he was dying, I remember
a part of me was thinking,
1795
01:25:58,334 --> 01:26:00,626
"There's a part of him
that wants to die.
1796
01:26:00,834 --> 01:26:02,709
There's a part of him
that wants to let go."
1797
01:26:02,918 --> 01:26:04,584
And I'll tell you something else
that's interesting--
1798
01:26:04,792 --> 01:26:06,626
Princess Di died
1799
01:26:06,834 --> 01:26:08,959
right while I was writing
that sequence.
1800
01:26:09,167 --> 01:26:11,751
And Jon Peters called me and said,
"You've got to come over to the house."
1801
01:26:11,959 --> 01:26:14,417
I said,
"Just copy what you see on TV
1802
01:26:14,626 --> 01:26:15,918
and write it into the script."
1803
01:26:16,125 --> 01:26:19,542
I wanted the grandness
of a world weeping.
1804
01:26:19,751 --> 01:26:22,709
Thompson: We were watching
the processionals and the funeral,
1805
01:26:22,918 --> 01:26:26,709
and that very much dictated
how we saw the death of Superman.
1806
01:26:26,918 --> 01:26:29,834
Heinrichs:
We had almost a severe fascist
1807
01:26:30,042 --> 01:26:33,459
or constructivist approach
to the Superman tomb.
1808
01:26:33,667 --> 01:26:36,000
In the scene that takes place,
1809
01:26:36,209 --> 01:26:38,542
it was originally going to be
at the Fortress of Solitude.
1810
01:26:38,751 --> 01:26:41,334
At the time the plug was pulled,
we were considering
1811
01:26:41,542 --> 01:26:42,834
it being in Superman's tomb,
1812
01:26:43,042 --> 01:26:46,042
but this was
the resuscitation of Superman.
1813
01:26:46,250 --> 01:26:48,375
What kind of brought
"Superman" down?
1814
01:26:48,584 --> 01:26:51,000
I don't think
there's any one reason.
1815
01:26:51,209 --> 01:26:53,584
As always, there's usually
a combination of reasons,
1816
01:26:53,792 --> 01:26:55,709
and everybody will have
a slightly different perspective.
1817
01:26:55,918 --> 01:26:57,751
As somebody inside,
1818
01:26:57,959 --> 01:27:01,876
"Superman" got caught in an unfortunate
moment in time at Warner Brothers.
1819
01:27:02,083 --> 01:27:03,876
So when you're
working on this script,
1820
01:27:04,083 --> 01:27:05,876
people are checking
on almost a daily basis.
1821
01:27:06,083 --> 01:27:07,876
It was a studio movie.
It was a huge budget.
1822
01:27:08,083 --> 01:27:09,709
I think it had a release date.
1823
01:27:09,918 --> 01:27:12,417
Before we handed in our first drafts,
nobody was talking about money
1824
01:27:12,626 --> 01:27:13,626
in terms of the budget.
It was just like,
1825
01:27:13,834 --> 01:27:15,751
"We're gonna-- this is a big movie.
We're going to write this big."
1826
01:27:15,959 --> 01:27:18,501
I got a phone call that Warner Brothers
had run a budget.
1827
01:27:18,709 --> 01:27:20,459
It was through the roof.
1828
01:27:20,667 --> 01:27:22,626
It would've been 200 for the movie,
1829
01:27:22,834 --> 01:27:25,125
another 100... it would've been
a $300-million investment.
1830
01:27:25,334 --> 01:27:27,667
The budget was not
an insignificant budget.
1831
01:27:27,876 --> 01:27:29,626
It was a really large budget.
1832
01:27:29,834 --> 01:27:31,209
There was a period of four weeks
where it was like,
1833
01:27:31,417 --> 01:27:33,709
"We've got to retool this again
and make this smaller.
1834
01:27:33,918 --> 01:27:36,125
It's too expensive.
We have to start cutting things."
1835
01:27:36,334 --> 01:27:38,292
And these big, huge
action sequences that
1836
01:27:38,501 --> 01:27:40,292
before had a blank check
attached to them,
1837
01:27:40,501 --> 01:27:43,000
suddenly-- it was like,
14 buildings don't go down.
1838
01:27:43,209 --> 01:27:45,584
We're going to keep it inside
the 5th floor of this one building.
1839
01:27:45,792 --> 01:27:48,209
And the Fortress of Solitude
gets jettisoned.
1840
01:27:48,417 --> 01:27:50,334
Everything goes into the tomb.
1841
01:27:50,542 --> 01:27:52,834
And it was very much
always in flux.
1842
01:27:53,042 --> 01:27:56,125
Development hell doesn't happen
with no-name directors.
1843
01:27:56,334 --> 01:27:58,250
It happens only
with famous directors
1844
01:27:58,459 --> 01:28:00,834
that a studio doesn't dare
break up with.
1845
01:28:01,042 --> 01:28:04,918
And that's how you end up for two years
just polishing a turd
1846
01:28:05,125 --> 01:28:08,334
until finally somebody walks away
at great cost.
1847
01:28:08,542 --> 01:28:11,459
We had several films
fail right around it
1848
01:28:11,667 --> 01:28:13,417
or under-perform
right around it.
1849
01:28:13,626 --> 01:28:18,375
So suddenly, the economic pressure
on all of us was very significant.
1850
01:28:18,584 --> 01:28:19,959
In the conference room
at Warner Brothers,
1851
01:28:20,167 --> 01:28:22,375
there's a big board,
and it's literally the size of a wall,
1852
01:28:22,584 --> 01:28:25,000
and it has their entire
release slate for the year,
1853
01:28:25,209 --> 01:28:27,918
including all the other films
coming out that weekend.
1854
01:28:28,459 --> 01:28:29,334
So it's broken up by weekend.
1855
01:28:29,542 --> 01:28:32,751
Warner Brothers got on one
of the all-time terrible rolls.
1856
01:28:32,959 --> 01:28:34,918
Bob Daley and Terry Semel
were in charge of the studio
1857
01:28:35,125 --> 01:28:36,167
and had a tremendous run.
1858
01:28:36,375 --> 01:28:37,876
These are very talented people.
But at this point,
1859
01:28:38,083 --> 01:28:39,667
for some reason,
things were misfiring.
1860
01:28:39,876 --> 01:28:41,000
And you could just see.
It was just like
1861
01:28:41,209 --> 01:28:42,501
every week,
the horserace was happening
1862
01:28:42,709 --> 01:28:44,375
and their horse
was coming in last.
1863
01:28:44,584 --> 01:28:45,834
Big movies.
1864
01:28:46,042 --> 01:28:48,709
So as we're coming in to discuss
at the conference table
1865
01:28:48,918 --> 01:28:52,209
our incredibly large-budget film
1866
01:28:52,417 --> 01:28:55,584
with a Tim Burton take,
which is deconstructionist
1867
01:28:55,792 --> 01:28:58,000
and unusual and unique,
1868
01:28:58,209 --> 01:29:00,417
what's going on around us
1869
01:29:00,626 --> 01:29:01,918
is you were looking
at the board and going--
1870
01:29:02,125 --> 01:29:04,042
you can just see the bombs
as they were going off.
1871
01:29:04,250 --> 01:29:05,584
Every time I'd come
in the conference room,
1872
01:29:05,792 --> 01:29:07,375
another executive had been fired.
1873
01:29:07,584 --> 01:29:09,792
And, as you know,
from a human nature standpoint,
1874
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:12,000
when money starts getting tight
and people have to make big decisions,
1875
01:29:12,209 --> 01:29:14,042
safety becomes the big thing.
1876
01:29:14,250 --> 01:29:18,751
The risk that you can take
when you're feeling confident
1877
01:29:18,959 --> 01:29:20,334
is very different than when
you're feeling
1878
01:29:20,542 --> 01:29:21,542
a little bit on your heels.
1879
01:29:21,751 --> 01:29:22,959
And we were on our heels
at that moment.
1880
01:29:23,167 --> 01:29:25,292
We were all interested
in getting the script better,
1881
01:29:25,501 --> 01:29:28,959
the filmmakers were too,
and it was still in process.
1882
01:29:29,167 --> 01:29:31,501
Lorenzo's utterly right.
It's like, we need to work on it,
1883
01:29:31,709 --> 01:29:33,751
we needed to hone it, we needed
to make it better all the time.
1884
01:29:33,959 --> 01:29:36,542
But there was enough there that
you could see what it was going to be.
1885
01:29:36,751 --> 01:29:39,000
Dan Gilroy gave it
some real shape.
1886
01:29:39,209 --> 01:29:42,792
And I kind of liked what he did.
The studio didn't like it.
1887
01:29:43,000 --> 01:29:45,250
And there was nothing-- you never
felt you were on solid ground
1888
01:29:45,459 --> 01:29:46,959
when you were going in
to talk about the script,
1889
01:29:47,167 --> 01:29:48,918
because there was always
the sense that it was--
1890
01:29:49,125 --> 01:29:50,292
It wasn't even
a blinking green light.
1891
01:29:50,501 --> 01:29:52,292
It was a green light.
They were moving ahead.
1892
01:29:52,501 --> 01:29:54,375
I think the day before it shut down,
1893
01:29:54,584 --> 01:29:57,083
I think Peters' assistant
came by the art department
1894
01:29:57,292 --> 01:30:00,792
and said he needed the skull ship model
for something-- for a meeting.
1895
01:30:01,000 --> 01:30:03,167
And so we all
thought it was strange
1896
01:30:03,375 --> 01:30:05,042
because they had
just finished that model.
1897
01:30:05,250 --> 01:30:07,834
And so he took that model
that evening.
1898
01:30:08,042 --> 01:30:09,209
That was at the end of the day.
1899
01:30:09,417 --> 01:30:13,000
I think the very next day, we got word
that the production was shut down.
1900
01:30:13,209 --> 01:30:15,792
We built this test suit just for
1901
01:30:16,000 --> 01:30:18,000
one of the people
that worked at my studio,
1902
01:30:18,209 --> 01:30:20,375
and by the time we got so excited
1903
01:30:20,584 --> 01:30:23,209
that we were ready to explode,
spontaneously combust,
1904
01:30:23,417 --> 01:30:26,042
'cause we thought we'd come up
with exactly what Tim wants
1905
01:30:26,250 --> 01:30:28,250
and something
pretty damned unique,
1906
01:30:28,459 --> 01:30:30,375
we got the call
that the show was off.
1907
01:30:30,584 --> 01:30:32,417
Everything had finally come together,
1908
01:30:32,626 --> 01:30:35,292
and we were ready to go
to the next step.
1909
01:30:35,501 --> 01:30:36,959
Actually, the day
of the camera test
1910
01:30:37,167 --> 01:30:40,125
was the day that they came and told us
that the movie was off.
1911
01:30:40,334 --> 01:30:43,792
So we only had elements
of that costume to camera-test
1912
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:47,876
to make sure it was all
visually strong.
1913
01:30:48,083 --> 01:30:50,292
So we never got to make
the whole thing.
1914
01:30:51,834 --> 01:30:54,542
It's the one costume I've never
gotten to really make
1915
01:30:54,751 --> 01:30:58,000
that I always thought
would've been, like, amazing.
1916
01:31:01,584 --> 01:31:03,542
We were literally
1917
01:31:03,751 --> 01:31:05,667
three weeks before production.
1918
01:31:05,876 --> 01:31:09,667
We were ready to go.
We were full-amped and ready to roll.
1919
01:31:09,876 --> 01:31:13,417
It was like getting
run over by a car.
1920
01:31:13,626 --> 01:31:15,250
That afternoon,
they called us all in,
1921
01:31:15,459 --> 01:31:17,125
and I remember
Tim and I and Jon went in,
1922
01:31:17,334 --> 01:31:20,626
and we sat with Bob
and Terry and Lorenzo,
1923
01:31:20,834 --> 01:31:23,918
and it was the
"Look, we're talking about this
1924
01:31:24,125 --> 01:31:27,334
and we're talking about that,
and the studio cannot sustain
1925
01:31:27,542 --> 01:31:29,209
this film at this point,"
and they pulled the plug.
1926
01:31:29,417 --> 01:31:31,292
Peters:
Terry Semel came up.
1927
01:31:31,501 --> 01:31:33,125
We did a show-and-tell.
1928
01:31:33,334 --> 01:31:35,709
Showed him everything
that we had--
1929
01:31:35,918 --> 01:31:38,751
the script, the storyboards,
all the stuff--
1930
01:31:38,959 --> 01:31:41,542
and he was my closest friend,
1931
01:31:41,751 --> 01:31:44,459
and he took me
in the room with Tim,
1932
01:31:44,667 --> 01:31:46,042
and he said,
"We're gonna cancel the movie.
1933
01:31:46,250 --> 01:31:47,209
We're gonna shut it down."
1934
01:31:47,417 --> 01:31:50,250
So we were being asked
to spend a lot of money
1935
01:31:50,459 --> 01:31:51,959
at a time where
we were a bit ahead,
1936
01:31:52,167 --> 01:31:54,792
or the script was a bit behind
where we were spending the money,
1937
01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:58,334
and then we had this overall pressure
going on within the corporation.
1938
01:31:58,542 --> 01:32:00,918
And I think it's really
three different sort of things
1939
01:32:01,125 --> 01:32:02,375
were happening at the same time.
1940
01:32:02,584 --> 01:32:05,542
I don't know that you can say,
"That's the one," but they were.
1941
01:32:05,751 --> 01:32:08,083
And, you know,
it is a financial reality
1942
01:32:08,292 --> 01:32:10,125
when you're inside a company.
1943
01:32:10,334 --> 01:32:11,918
When they're worried
about their results,
1944
01:32:12,125 --> 01:32:14,709
they look at the risk factor
in a different way.
1945
01:32:14,918 --> 01:32:19,292
I was angry,
frustrated.
1946
01:32:19,501 --> 01:32:23,125
I felt betrayed,
but it was their call.
1947
01:32:23,334 --> 01:32:25,167
What would you say
are the top three reasons
1948
01:32:25,375 --> 01:32:27,167
they pulled the plug,
from their perspective?
1949
01:32:27,375 --> 01:32:31,417
Budget, Nicolas Cage,
and Tim Burton.
1950
01:32:31,626 --> 01:32:34,375
I think they didn't
totally believe that Tim
1951
01:32:34,584 --> 01:32:39,042
could make a "Superman"
that would be commercial.
1952
01:32:39,250 --> 01:32:42,709
People were scared of this movie,
just like they were scared of "Batman."
1953
01:32:42,918 --> 01:32:45,209
Whether it was
they were still sort of--
1954
01:32:45,417 --> 01:32:49,417
still freaked out about my
"Batman Returns" or whatever
1955
01:32:49,626 --> 01:32:53,375
or "Mars Attacks!,"
whatever the dynamic was,
1956
01:32:53,584 --> 01:32:56,292
and I've had this happen
from the beginning,
1957
01:32:56,501 --> 01:32:58,918
is, like, they,
"Okay, yeah, do it,"
1958
01:32:59,125 --> 01:33:01,918
but then they're always slightly
worried about you in some way.
1959
01:33:02,125 --> 01:33:03,459
Highly creative people
1960
01:33:03,667 --> 01:33:05,709
have a hard time
getting their movies made.
1961
01:33:05,918 --> 01:33:07,834
Full stop.
That's all it is.
1962
01:33:08,042 --> 01:33:10,834
Because they bring stuff
that blows everyone away.
1963
01:33:11,042 --> 01:33:13,375
and as much as they claim
they want original,
1964
01:33:13,584 --> 01:33:15,334
they're terrified of it.
That's what happens.
1965
01:33:15,542 --> 01:33:17,083
So you don't see those movies
1966
01:33:17,292 --> 01:33:20,751
because they scare everybody
up the chain of command.
1967
01:33:21,209 --> 01:33:23,542
You know, like, when you
have a transplanted organ,
1968
01:33:23,751 --> 01:33:26,083
the body either rejects
the organ or not,
1969
01:33:26,292 --> 01:33:30,209
you have to have somebody in the body
that says, "No, I want that liver."
1970
01:33:30,417 --> 01:33:32,667
And usually
with these dangerous movies,
1971
01:33:32,876 --> 01:33:35,542
people are kind of going,
"I don't know."
1972
01:33:35,751 --> 01:33:39,000
And Jon is a tremendous,
passionate believer
1973
01:33:39,209 --> 01:33:41,959
and proponent
of the franchise,
1974
01:33:42,167 --> 01:33:44,584
and he fought like hell
for this movie.
1975
01:33:44,792 --> 01:33:46,709
Oh, I went to Terry Semel
and threatened him
1976
01:33:46,918 --> 01:33:49,626
with throwing him
out his window.
1977
01:33:49,834 --> 01:33:52,584
I mean, I was like,
"You can't do this to me.
1978
01:33:52,792 --> 01:33:54,542
I've worked on this
for too many years.
1979
01:33:54,751 --> 01:33:55,834
We're ready to go.
We're cast.
1980
01:33:56,042 --> 01:33:57,876
We have one of the great directors
who just made
1981
01:33:58,083 --> 01:33:59,501
a billion-dollar
franchise for you.
1982
01:33:59,709 --> 01:34:03,501
Roll the dice, man.
Roll the dice."
1983
01:34:03,709 --> 01:34:05,292
Nope.
1984
01:34:05,501 --> 01:34:07,751
So that year you were working
on "Superman Lives,"
1985
01:34:07,959 --> 01:34:09,459
how much money was spent?
1986
01:34:09,667 --> 01:34:12,918
I think it was somewhere close
to between 10 and 12 million,
1987
01:34:13,125 --> 01:34:15,125
and then I don't know
if there was any payoff to Tim
1988
01:34:15,334 --> 01:34:17,584
or any payoff to Nic Cage
or anything,
1989
01:34:17,792 --> 01:34:20,501
'cause I don't know
if they had a pay-or-play deal.
1990
01:34:20,709 --> 01:34:22,751
Tim was completely devastated.
He ran out.
1991
01:34:22,959 --> 01:34:24,834
He wouldn't talk to me
or anybody for a week.
1992
01:34:25,042 --> 01:34:26,834
A week-- a month.
1993
01:34:27,042 --> 01:34:29,792
Where the studio was,
Jon, the studio, me--
1994
01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:34,876
you know, the combination
just was, you know.
1995
01:34:35,083 --> 01:34:37,292
But it is pain--
I have to say, it is painful
1996
01:34:37,501 --> 01:34:41,167
to work so long on something,
you know.
1997
01:34:41,375 --> 01:34:44,042
Once that was over with,
and I couldn't even get Tim on the phone
1998
01:34:44,250 --> 01:34:47,334
to try to figure a way
to get it going again--
1999
01:34:49,083 --> 01:34:51,375
'cause I wasn't going to give up on it
until I got it made--
2000
01:34:51,584 --> 01:34:53,709
Will Smith said yes to
"Wild Wild West,"
2001
01:34:53,918 --> 01:34:57,792
and we went off
and began shooting that movie.
2002
01:34:58,000 --> 01:35:01,292
That was another big film
that Warner Brothers was developing.
2003
01:35:01,501 --> 01:35:04,792
A quite expensive film.
and we kind of got a sense like,
2004
01:35:05,000 --> 01:35:08,584
"Okay, we're gonna now
focus on that."
2005
01:35:08,792 --> 01:35:10,959
They actually mentioned in the room
while they were pulling the plug
2006
01:35:11,167 --> 01:35:14,834
that the funds were going to be
going over to "Wild Wild West."
2007
01:35:15,042 --> 01:35:18,459
And, you know,
that is its own story.
2008
01:35:18,667 --> 01:35:21,792
- Oh, that is a whole other documentary.
- Yeah.
2009
01:35:26,417 --> 01:35:29,209
I went to a movie theater
years later
2010
01:35:29,417 --> 01:35:31,667
to see a movie called
"The Wild Wild West."
2011
01:35:31,876 --> 01:35:34,250
All of a sudden,
the Kenneth Branagh character
2012
01:35:34,459 --> 01:35:37,959
shows up, like,
in this gigantic metal
2013
01:35:38,167 --> 01:35:42,083
walking spider, this monster spider,
bigger than fuck.
2014
01:35:42,292 --> 01:35:45,959
I was so caught up with this spider,
the Thanagarian snare beast,
2015
01:35:46,167 --> 01:35:48,501
that we did a comedic version
2016
01:35:48,709 --> 01:35:52,083
with "Wild Wild West,"
and that's where the spider came in.
2017
01:35:52,292 --> 01:35:54,125
I remember Jon Peters' name
in the credits.
2018
01:35:54,334 --> 01:35:55,375
I was like, "Goddamn it.
2019
01:35:55,584 --> 01:35:58,250
That motherfucker finally got
his fucking spider."
2020
01:35:58,459 --> 01:36:00,417
Now when I go to conventions
and I show people,
2021
01:36:00,626 --> 01:36:02,584
I'm actually doing the opposite
of Bryan Singer.
2022
01:36:02,792 --> 01:36:04,125
I'm doing like,
"Hey, come here a minute,"
2023
01:36:04,334 --> 01:36:05,459
and I show some fan who's like,
2024
01:36:05,667 --> 01:36:06,792
"Nic Cage is stupid!
2025
01:36:07,000 --> 01:36:08,167
He would've been horrible
in that movie!"
2026
01:36:08,375 --> 01:36:10,250
"Check this out."
"Whoa, that's not bad."
2027
01:36:10,459 --> 01:36:12,792
Cage: You know,
that character is such a bull's-eye
2028
01:36:13,000 --> 01:36:14,250
that you have to hit.
2029
01:36:14,459 --> 01:36:17,209
He's almost--
he's one of the most
2030
01:36:17,417 --> 01:36:20,250
precious icons of our country.
2031
01:36:20,459 --> 01:36:22,834
And the fact
that Tim and I
2032
01:36:23,042 --> 01:36:25,584
were pretty far down the road
designing it--
2033
01:36:25,792 --> 01:36:28,334
and I know that with Tim
and where I was going to go,
2034
01:36:28,542 --> 01:36:30,459
we would've done something
really special--
2035
01:36:30,667 --> 01:36:33,667
at least it's out there in the ether
that that could have happened,
2036
01:36:33,876 --> 01:36:36,334
but it doesn't have to--
we don't have to make the movie.
2037
01:36:36,542 --> 01:36:38,751
It's still interesting to people.
2038
01:36:38,959 --> 01:36:40,751
You know, from that perspective,
it was a big disappointment,
2039
01:36:40,959 --> 01:36:43,125
because I think
he would've really stretched
2040
01:36:43,334 --> 01:36:46,209
in a way he hadn't yet,
and maybe hasn't since.
2041
01:36:46,417 --> 01:36:48,667
I don't know.
He hasn't made that movie.
2042
01:36:48,876 --> 01:36:50,834
When "Superman Lives" ended,
2043
01:36:51,042 --> 01:36:54,167
obviously it was
a very dark time, you know,
2044
01:36:54,375 --> 01:36:57,042
to have something that-- for everyone,
everyone that worked on it.
2045
01:36:57,250 --> 01:36:59,375
You know,
it's a horrible thing
2046
01:36:59,584 --> 01:37:01,334
to be working
creatively on something
2047
01:37:01,542 --> 01:37:03,584
and then have it just
pulled from your life.
2048
01:37:03,792 --> 01:37:06,834
It's just amazing to me
to look back that way
2049
01:37:07,042 --> 01:37:10,375
and look at what's going on now
with these kind of movies
2050
01:37:10,584 --> 01:37:14,042
and wonder what that would've been then
and what it could've become.
2051
01:37:14,250 --> 01:37:16,083
It's just something
I think people should know--
2052
01:37:16,292 --> 01:37:18,375
that they're looking
at a process, not a product.
2053
01:37:18,584 --> 01:37:21,959
The ultimate product
would've been an amazing film.
2054
01:37:22,167 --> 01:37:25,918
I don't know how it couldn't been
at least received very interestingly
2055
01:37:26,125 --> 01:37:28,959
because it's a movie
I'd still like to see.
2056
01:37:29,167 --> 01:37:32,292
And plus I would've been able to do
a lot of cool monsters in it.
2057
01:37:32,667 --> 01:37:35,792
That was a big part
of who I am today.
2058
01:37:36,000 --> 01:37:37,667
That was the moment--
like, going out there
2059
01:37:37,876 --> 01:37:39,083
and telling that story
over and over again.
2060
01:37:39,292 --> 01:37:41,209
Because of "Superman Lives,"
2061
01:37:41,417 --> 01:37:43,459
that was when I realized
my true talent, I think.
2062
01:37:43,667 --> 01:37:45,959
It obviously wasn't writing
"Superman,"
2063
01:37:46,167 --> 01:37:47,918
it was talking
about writing "Superman."
2064
01:37:48,125 --> 01:37:50,501
That was where
the real money was, I guess.
2065
01:37:50,709 --> 01:37:53,042
I think it would've definitely
established the fact
2066
01:37:53,250 --> 01:37:56,709
that you can
make a tough guy
2067
01:37:56,918 --> 01:37:58,876
have a great deal
of insecurity.
2068
01:37:59,083 --> 01:38:02,083
It might not have been
the comic book "Superman"
2069
01:38:02,292 --> 01:38:05,501
or the television "Superman"
or Dick Donner's "Superman,"
2070
01:38:05,709 --> 01:38:07,792
but Tim Burton's "Superman"
would've been
2071
01:38:08,000 --> 01:38:10,167
something quite unique
2072
01:38:10,375 --> 01:38:12,667
and probably something
we'd still be talking about, you know.
2073
01:38:12,876 --> 01:38:14,250
Well, we are talking
about it anyway.
2074
01:38:14,459 --> 01:38:16,250
It didn't even get made
and we're talking about it.
2075
01:38:16,459 --> 01:38:18,751
Tim is really, I've got to be honest,
I think one of the only people
2076
01:38:18,959 --> 01:38:22,626
who could really do it justice,
because he understands it.
2077
01:38:22,834 --> 01:38:24,334
He's lived it.
2078
01:38:24,542 --> 01:38:26,501
And he, uh--
2079
01:38:26,709 --> 01:38:28,834
man, he would've fucking
knocked it out of the park.
2080
01:38:29,042 --> 01:38:30,834
I think it would've either been
2081
01:38:31,042 --> 01:38:33,542
laughed off the screen
or a big hit.
2082
01:38:33,751 --> 01:38:37,542
I think Tim Burton would've made a movie
I would've been proud of.
2083
01:38:37,751 --> 01:38:41,167
Would it have done these kind of numbers
that we needed to do?
2084
01:38:41,375 --> 01:38:42,626
Maybe not.
2085
01:38:42,834 --> 01:38:46,751
If we would've been able
to strip through all of the chaos,
2086
01:38:46,959 --> 01:38:50,000
I think we could've had
an interesting movie,
2087
01:38:50,209 --> 01:38:52,459
'cause it would've had
some cool imagery
2088
01:38:52,667 --> 01:38:54,459
and let Superman be Superman
2089
01:38:54,667 --> 01:38:57,918
and then also experience
2090
01:38:58,125 --> 01:39:00,417
what it's like to be hidden
and to be that character.
2091
01:39:00,626 --> 01:39:03,584
I mean, all those things were--
that was the core essence
2092
01:39:03,792 --> 01:39:08,501
of what we were
trying to do.
2093
01:39:10,667 --> 01:39:13,042
So any final thoughts
on "Superman Lives"?
2094
01:39:13,250 --> 01:39:16,959
If you think back about it now,
how do you feel about it?
2095
01:39:17,959 --> 01:39:20,918
Why are you trying
to depress me so much today?
2096
01:39:22,459 --> 01:39:26,792
Anybody got any cyanide
or anything I can take?
2097
01:39:27,000 --> 01:39:30,792
Visit me when I'm about 90,
2098
01:39:31,000 --> 01:39:33,834
and I'll be here...
2099
01:39:34,042 --> 01:39:35,584
( old man's voice )
Still gonna make it.
2100
01:39:35,792 --> 01:39:36,918
Gonna make it.
179801