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"She's a cool..."

"...blonde..."

"...scheming bitch."

"She makes my body twitch."

"Walking down the corridor, you can hear her..."

"...stilettos click."

"I want her so much, I feel sick."

(opening of "High School Confidential" playing)

(audience cheering)

Peaches: When I heard a song about a woman

lusting after another woman,

I was like, "Wow!"

Rufus Wainwright: That was so far ahead

of what was going on at the time.

Notorious Carole Pope.

Jann Arden: She shocked people on a regular basis.

They thought, "Oh, she'll never be mainstream."

Female vocalist of the year, Carole Pope!

(audience cheering)

We'd like to welcome our special guest, Rough Trade!

(audience applauding)

Reporter: Ten years and five albums later,

they're on the verge of full-fledged,

international star status.

(audience cheering)

Jann Arden: Every little mini lesbian in the world,

they loved her songs.

George Stroumboulopoulos: Even if you didn't connect to

that part of it, you respected and connected to

the upheaval that it was creating.

k.d. lang: I was like, "Holy shit."

Golden road had been laid out.

Yeah!

¶ Tremor, a big... ¶

Peaches: Every song was dripping with

the underbelly of sexuality,

but also just feeling comfortable with who you are.

k.d. lang: Her embodiment of who she was is her superpower

and paved the way for people like me.

Woman: Everyone, put your hands together.

Kevan Staples and Carole Pope!

(audience cheering, applauding)

Thank you!

¶

¶

Hello, and welcome to my fabulous Hollywood pad.

This is the pool I never use, because it's not heated.

This is the traffic.

That is like living on a drag strip.

This is the apartment.

This is the bedroom, and the living room,

and the exercise room.

This is my bedside table

that I fashioned from a cardboard box.

This is a couch from Amazon,

which was $89.

The fabulous kitchen. Uh, what else?

The closet, darlings.

Bathroom. All of that.

This is the glamorous rock-star life.

As long as I feel creative,

it, you know, gives me a reason to live.

I get up, I drink coffee,

answer emails, hustle for gigs,

maybe work on a song.

I've been working on a musical.

¶ How I miss your machine gun wit ¶

I was part of an innovative band

in the '70s and '80s.

I lived the high life for a while,

but like, now I'm just another struggling artist.

I think most musicians are in the same place as I am,

and it's really more difficult today than ever.

¶

But I have something to say and something to put out there.

I love singing, I love writing, I love performing.

From the time I was a teenager,

that's all I really cared about.

¶

I started going to Yorkville in the late '60s

when I was still living in Don Mills.

The summers are so horrific, we all ran away to Yorkville.

I used to dress very "mod"... (laughing)

...and take lots of drugs and go and see more bands,

and it was great.

Penny Farthing, Boris's, The Mynah Bird.

I hardly spent any time in high school,

'cause I was always down in The Village.

You know, and you kick off your shoes

and walk around barefoot.

I mean, I saw Joni Mitchell at the Riverboat.

It was just such a golden time.

There was a vibrant scene, you know, in Yorkville,

but it didn't permeate the rest of the city.

John Diefenbaker: I dislike saying this

in the City of Toronto, but here in this city

there is widespread moral wrong-doing,

more sex, more drugs.

The permissive society.

George Stroumboulopoulos: In the '60s,

Toronto was really small,

really conservative.

Gary Topp: It was a pretty dead city.

I recall when you couldn't drink alcohol on Sundays,

when you couldn't go to a movie on a Sunday.

Reporter: Yorkville is a splash of colour in a grey town,

a festering sore, according to some city fathers.

Carole: We didn't give a shit.

We were all, like, rebellious in our way.

It's all about peace and love, and everybody felt really free.

¶

This is when I actually started writing music,

but I was very, very shy,

and I wouldn't play stuff for anybody.

I was a bit of a nerd. I was always reading.

I was always writing.

I secretly wanted to be a singer-slash-musician.

I met Kevan at an audition

for a band called The Deva Loca Sideshow.

He was auditioning as the guitar player,

and he was so gorgeous looking,

and I was very attracted to him.

Kevan Staples: This extremely quiet young lady,

with this long sort of straight hair that just revealed

a small portion of her face, started singing these

extremely women-centric songs, and I said,

"I have to be with this girl," you know?

And so we started a relationship.

Carole: We had this great friendship

that turned into a romance.

Kevan: Within a year, we were living together

and spent the next five years writing together.

(Motown style music playing)

Carole: We just used to lie around a lot

and listen to records, smoke dope,

and that's all you did all day, was, like, smoke dope,

do some acid, have pithy conversations about life.

You know, I kind of turned him on to

the music that I liked.

He was into much more esoteric stuff than I was.

Yeah, I was listening to, you know, psychedelic rock,

and I was playing sitar at the time.

When I met Carole, she was into all the sort of R&B soul music,

and she also liked musicals.

Carole: Musicals are clever and pithy

and full of sexual innuendo.

Musicals are so gay. Maybe that's why I like 'em.

I don't know. I think I just wanna write Broadway musicals

and-or be Barbra Streisand, or something.

Well, not Barbra Streisand, but something like that.

Kevan: I think we didn't really know exactly

what we wanted to do, but we did a lot of complaining

about what we were listening to on the radio.

¶ Raise a little hell, raise a little hell ¶

¶ Raise a little hell ¶

Kim Temple: In Canada, in the '70s,

it was a very white, cis-male world

where rock stars ruled.

Doug McClement: Bands would come to my studio and was like,

"Make me sound like Rush, make me sound like Foreigner,

make me sound like Journey."

We did wanna shake things up.

And so we said, you know, "Why don't we get a band?"

I would come up with, like, a sketch almost for a song

and we'd kind of, like, nurture it together.

Carole always wrote the lyrics.

They had a real sort of film quality to them,

sexual references, and also a great deal of wit.

Because I was really keen on supporting that voice, you know?

I remember not only did I want to be with that voice,

but I wanted to be behind that voice.

Carole: Kevan writes kind of nice poppy music

and I have this dark, bitter sensibility,

and somehow they mesh.

And eventually Rough Trade evolved out of that.

(audience cheering, applauding)

Carole: This is called "Lie Back and Eat My--"

No, it's called "Lie Back, Let Me Do Everything."

(band playing)

¶ It's 10:00 o'clock, the bar is jammed ¶

¶ Waitresses circulate ¶

¶ In and out of tables ¶

¶ Feel like a boxer ¶

¶ I'm punch drunk ¶

¶ Got a cigarette wedged in my face ¶

Rob Bowman: I remember seeing them at Grossman's

and the place was packed.

Carole's magnetic.

They're singing lyrics like "Auto Erotic Love."

And I think there was a song about being

dry humped in a hallway.

Oh, there's "Lipstick on your Dipstick."

¶ Stale beer and Listerine ¶

¶ Lie back ¶

Sebastian Bach: I love Rush with all my heart.

Everybody loves Triumph, April Wine.

But there's one thing those bands don't have

that Rough Trade has,

and that is sex.

Rob: They're all tied up in the breaking of sexual taboos

and we'll say "shock factor,"

but there's incredible humour in all this.

Sex is very funny.

Why don't you just get right back and comfortable,

because this is strong stuff.

What we've got is some adult entertainment.

Carole: People are so hung up about it.

It should be a nonissue, but it's always gonna be

a source of material for me to write about.

- ¶ Take me ¶ - ¶ Take me ¶

- ¶ Take me ¶ - ¶ Well, take me ¶

¶ Through the doors of paradise ¶

¶ Whoa, whoa ¶

¶ Don't leave me standing on the threshold, no, no ¶

¶ That's not nice, that isn't nice ¶

¶ Butch, you, you gotta be butch ¶

¶ Butch, yeah, butchy butch ¶

¶ Gotta be butch ¶

Kevan: The song styles were changing all the time.

We had country songs, we had funk R&B songs,

and a Rolling Stones kind of rock song

or a cabaret '30s song.

So, those first five years

were almost establishing the palate.

Talk Show Host: They're new, they're original.

Rough Trade is what's called an underground band.

They have a cult following in their hometown of Toronto,

and it's an enormous cult and it's a growing one.

Carole: Celebrities came to see us.

There was pimps and hoes sitting at the bar.

We had such an amazing audience.

Kevan: We were really lucky that when we started

we kind of found our crowd right away.

Carole: We were really surprised at how people

related to the music.

It was just great to have that kind of impact.

I think we were both a little astounded by it.

¶

I remember that cigarette dangling from the corner

of your mouth, that white shirt unbuttoned at the collar,

revealing the tanned expanse of your chest.

I knew you would never be completely mine,

but I... I had to settle for what I could get.

I was quite hammy.

I was just totally hamming it up.

I don't know how that evolved,

because when I first started singing,

I was just, like, paralyzed with fear.

And then the more I did it, the more I was like,

"Oh my God, I love this."

...into the warped vessel of a wanton woman's heart.

Forgive me! Forgive me!

You know, it's just, like, sheer adrenaline, performing.

You go into this zone.

You get really, really high from it.

That's a part of me that gets to release everything.

Like, all my pent-up shit.

I get to vent on stage or be silly or whatever.

I think it's in my blood.

I got it from my mom.

She was involved in English music hall,

a singer, dancer in the '40s,

and I think she missed that.

My dad wouldn't let her sing after they got married.

When I was a little kid she said,

"I was sorry the day after I married your father."

She was a frustrated performer.

So, I think that got channelled into me.

I was born in Manchester.

My mom took me to theatre when I was a baby

and the first music I heard as a kid was Maria Callas

and Broadway musicals.

I was close to my mom and very close to my sisters,

Diane and Elaine, and we worshipped Howard.

My brother, Howard,

was really sweet and sensitive,

and he was very bright.

I think he was the smartest one of all of us.

He definitely was my closest family member.

Howard and my sisters and I

used to put on shows for my parents.

Almost everyone in my family ended up in show biz.

My father was bipolar, and I did not like my father.

He was never supportive

and he was verbally abusive always.

From the time I was born,

my father would make us move all the time.

My mom would cry when we had to move

and it was difficult for all of us.

The minute I left England,

I felt like everything sucks.

We ended up moving to Canada.

I was just, like, introverted.

I couldn't find that many people to relate to,

so I just made art.

I think I was nine or something when I saw Elvis on TV,

and then I'm like, "I need to have a guitar."

Like, I want to sing like that

and you know, be able to express myself like that.

I secretly wanna be a rock star.

Don Mills was, like, kind of a hellscape.

So, all I did was fantasize about getting out of there,

and eventually I moved to Yorkville.

Once we started playing as Rough Trade,

my mom would come to my gigs, and I was like,

"She's in the audience. She's loving it."

I think she was proud.

¶

(coughing)

Director: How are you feeling, buddy?

I have a cough.

I have a bit of a cough, but I'm a bit better.

Director: Yeah.

Man: A good gig cures anything.

Yeah.

Tim Welch: I'm Tim, and my job is to play guitar

for the wonderful Carole Pope,

and I have been doing so for 35, 36 years.

I'm her rock 'n' roll husband.

Kevan is her rock 'n' roll wife.

I left Canada in 1989, but I work in Canada a lot

and I love the audiences. I love all of that.

(people talking)

In order to make a living, I have to play live.

You know, we have made some money from royalties,

but not right now.

You know, the whole industry changed

when people were not buying vinyl.

Our stuff was on CD and cassettes,

and then streaming was everything.

These fucking companies that pay you a percentage of a cent

for every track that's downloaded.

I mean, I just-- It's disgusting.

Art has gotta be worth something.

Director: What would have happened

if streaming didn't happen?

Tim: You would be interviewing us right now on the beach.

Are we all ready?

Yeah.

(audience cheering, applauding)

¶

¶ You stand alone up against the wall ¶

¶ The sheer force of it knocks you off your feet ¶

¶ Here it comes again, up against the wall ¶

¶ She's the only sanity in all this chaos ¶

¶ Give up the fight, up against the wall ¶

¶ Lay down your arms ¶

¶ She's got your life in her hand ¶

¶ Up against the wall, up against the wall ¶

¶

¶ She's got your life in her hands ¶

(audience cheering, applauding)

Thank you!

I'm staying across from where Vidal Sassoon used to be,

but they tore it down and I'm heartbroken.

They just don't give a shit. They keep tearing stuff down

and building condos, condos, Toronto, condos.

(audience laughing)

We're just having a few glasses of water here

because we're pretty deviant kind of people,

and, yeah, we're heavily into water.

Water and water sports. Golden showers.

Perhaps you've heard about them.

They could be happening in your home right now.

(band starting song)

¶ It was hell on the street ¶

¶ Cops, barricades, and dogs ¶

I think I got to live in Toronto during its heyday.

¶ Sure, I was a goner ¶

Toronto in the '70s

was a cross-pollination of the arts.

Theatre, music, film. We all knew each other.

We all supported each other. We all got stoned together.

It was amazing.

¶ Oh, God I was your hostage ¶

Gary: Fashion was changing.

Art galleries were opening.

The whole scene

really changed the face of Toronto.

¶ You dragged me through the police line ¶

Sandy Stagg: When I got here in 1968,

Toronto was, like, so backwards.

(laughing) Sorry, Toronto,

but people like General Idea and Carole and me

soon dragged you up into the world

we got to know in the '70s.

Carole: We met General Idea, this group of three artists.

They did four of our album covers.

Kevan: We had all these dreams in our head of working

with other like-minded people.

Like some really interesting singers,

Nona Hendryx, Tim Curry.

Carole: We also worked with Divine,

who was in these John Waters films.

We did this crazy show at Massey Hall

called "Restless Underwear."

Thank you.

Kevan and I started going to Second City,

because we loved comedy, so we knew Gilda Radner

and Danny Aykroyd and Marty Short

and we all hung out together,

and then when they did the TV show,

they asked us to be on the show.

Welcome to Rock Rap.

We'd like to welcome our special guest, Rough Trade.

(audience applauding)

In the underground pop world, which is better,

bondage or humiliation?

Humiliation.

(all clapping)

We wanted to hang out with them

'cause we thought they were the cool kids.

Little did we know that we were the cool kids.

¶ You say I'm a narcissist ¶

¶ I say I'm image conscious ¶

¶ I'm a victim of fashion ¶

¶ Of fashion and accessories ¶

Carole: Kevan and I were absolutely obsessed

with fashion.

It was all part of the presentation.

We were queens of androgyny,

a combination of punk, bondage, and glam.

¶ We're all victims of fashion ¶

Jeanne Beker: That might have been the first time

I ever even heard of someone being referred to

as a "victim of fashion."

You know, it was just genius, really.

¶ Square those shoulder pads ¶

Carole: A Rough Trade show was me

with a riding crop,

faux whipping somebody in the audience.

People just really enjoyed it

and got the theatricality of it.

You shouldn't wear blue jeans on stage.

You should create some kind of fantasy for people.

I mean, they like that.

It was a convergence of art, music, and fashion,

all the things that turned us on.

¶

Jeanne: So, many musicians have drifted in and out

of your life.

What inspired you to add the female members

to the group at that point?

I don't know. I thought it was a kind of

a fun idea to have, like, three girls and three guys,

but I would never do that again.

- Um... - (laughing) Why?

Well, Jane was so gorgeous

that she was constantly upstaging me,

and, frankly, I couldn't take it.

¶ From the trailer of Miss Divine ¶

¶ In the cliques of the chic ¶

¶ Glamour rears its lovely head ¶

¶

The lovely Jane.

I went to a party and she was there

and we ended up sleeping together.

Because look at her! She's gorgeous.

I knew I was gay when I was a little kid.

When I saw a Wonder Woman comic book,

I was like, "That woman is hot!"

That was my first inkling that I might be a lesbian.

But I also knew this is, like, a weird feeling,

this can't be good.

It was the '50s. That shit was not happening.

I think I tried to come out in the '60s,

but it just wasn't possible.

So, I was very conflicted about the whole thing,

and I did have crushes on guys,

and then I was with Kevan.

I was really into Kevan.

We were really, like, soulmates on so many levels.

So, I guess I was bisexual, and then I wasn't.

Jane was the catalyst.

I'm like, "I have to!"

We were, like, completely high on each other.

It was very exciting.

and I ended up breaking up with Kevan

and kind of coming out,

and, I mean, it was awful for both of us,

'cause I really loved Kevan, and, um...

But, you know, the heart wants what the heart wants.

Do you want the personal story?

- Director: Sure! - It was devastating for me.

Yeah, it was hard.

It's hard to lose somebody you have that much,

uh, love for and respect for, you know?

Carole: It was really bad

the first few times that we played.

Everybody in the band at that time when we broke up

were saying, "Mommy and Daddy, please don't fight,"

'cause we were-- (snarling like a cat)

and that was about the worst period in our relationship.

I felt really guilty, and I know he was really hurt,

and I was like, "Please let him meet somebody,"

and eventually he started dating.

Marilyn started coming to our shows at Grossman's

and eventually they got married,

and I was, like, really happy for them,

and when Jane and I eventually broke up,

I just sailed on to other women.

I'm really not looking for an everlasting romance,

because I don't believe in anything like that,

I don't think.

And then Kevan and I were back

to where we were.

It actually formed a stronger bond,

so there you go.

Our connection was much stronger than just as lovers,

because we were making art. We were making songs.

I call them "song babies"

'cause, you know, music lasts forever.

¶

Check! Yeah!

(playing keys)

Nona Hendryx: I sort of got to know Carole and Kevan

in the late '70s,

and we just got on great as people.

They're like one person in a way,

but individual because they also had very strong ideas

and opinions about things, specifically Carole,

and Kevan was strong enough to push back.

There was that typical glimmer twin relationship.

Carole: There is a special magic with Kevan.

And yeah, we've been through so much.

We had this amazing band, and, uh,

he's actually really ill right now.

So, I just want to be there for him.

The last time we played was last year,

but he was on painkillers and in a back brace,

but he was, like, full of so much joy.

His spirit is so strong and so amazing.

Carole: There's such a resurgence in people

wanting to hear '80s bands.

So, occasionally we will do Rough Trade reunion gigs.

Usher: Cheers. Enjoy the show.

Carole: It's fun and good money,

and I love playing with Kevan.

Talk Show Host: You, Carole Pope,

were offered a recording contract

by a big recording company.

If you would leave Rough Trade behind

and go it alone,

they promised to make you a star. Is that true?

Yes, it is.

I did get offered a deal with Motown,

and they wanted me to not do my own material,

and I was like, "No!"

I mean, I'll do cover tunes, but it's not my thing,

and I'm a writer, you know, I'm a singer-songwriter,

and, you know, I really believed in Rough Trade,

and I really loved working with Kevan,

and, you know, we had an amazing thing going.

They wanted to separate Kevan and I,

and we are joined at the hip.

Talk Show Host: And that's Kevan Staples.

Mm-hm.

Who you founded Rough Trade with?

- Yes. - And you wouldn't go.

It's not always about the money or the fame.

It's just about making great art.

(audience cheering, applauding)

Thank you!

(audience cheering)

¶

Kevan: If you're lucky enough,

you get to have some notoriety like we did,

and if you're really lucky, you get back to the core.

So when you see a show now,

they're just there for one thing,

and they're the ones that, you know, get it 100%.

¶ I pushed her tense face ¶

¶ Away from me ¶

Kevan: It's lovely to play to that crowd,

because those are the people, right?

¶ Away from me ¶

¶

¶ The hard smile, it's voice going on ¶

¶ Like a razor blade on glass ¶

¶ All touch, but no contact ¶

¶ It stabbed me ¶

I've been following Rough Trade for over 45 years.

It was a light that went on that shone for us all.

I don't think a lot of us would be here today without Carole.

Woman #1: You know, she's really been the one who's

done it first in a lot of ways.

Woman #2: I found Rough Trade at Value Village one day.

They had "For Those Who Think Young" on vinyl.

My favourite song is probably "All Touch".

Almost 40 years later, it's still perfect.

¶ It stabbed me like, it stabbed me like a knife in the back ¶

¶ All, all touch ¶

¶ All touch and all touch, and no contact ¶

¶ I tense my body ¶

¶

¶

(sizzling)

Woman: They're coming to life, look at 'em!

Does this mean they're done?

- The pierogi have risen! - (Carole gasping)

They've come into their own!

(both laughing)

You-- You're, like, always just--

You're hustling, hustling. You just--

I don't know anybody who goes as much as you do.

Really?

I mean, yeah, I think I'd get exhausted.

I mean, I couldn't travel around

and play gigs cross country as much as you do.

That would be a lot.

- It's big. - Yeah.

- It is exhausting, but-- - Yeah.

But I love it.

She works harder than a lot of us do, you know?

And she's-- she's, like, several decades older.

I am in a band called Sapphic Musk

and like, I'm from the LA

kind of underground punk rock scene,

and Carole's punk rock as far-- like,

her ethics are punk rock.

The way she does it DIY.

Trying to surf this gigantic ocean

that is the music industry now

versus how she learned it in the beginning,

it's so different.

We're talking about steps of generations.

Yeah.

You're before me, but I can't imagine in the '70s,

you must have felt so alone.

- Yeah. - So alone.

No Carole Popes before you being all

just whoever they are on the stage.

Yeah.

Carole, like, rose out of nothing.

Created it from clay.

I'm like the godmother of all you bitches.

¶

¶ If we happen to walk down the street ¶

¶ Holding another woman's arm ¶

¶ If we get looks of revulsion ¶

¶ I get a compulsion to set things right ¶

¶ If you're saying dyke by default ¶

¶ Dyke, it's a '50s cliché ¶

Carole: I was absolutely fearless.

I was just, like, "I'm gonna write this stuff,

and you're either gonna like it or not like it."

¶ If you're jealous or threatened ¶

¶ Well, excuse me ¶

I just felt I'm an artist, I feel free,

I'm going to do whatever the fuck I want.

You know, I just was what I was.

She was courageous and daring.

Being gay was dangerous. It was really dangerous.

Sandy: Most people who were gay early on

didn't exactly announce that fact.

Salah Bachir: Bowie or somebody would say they're bisexual,

and so, we all thought we were bisexual as well.

We were experimenting. It's a phase.

All of that stuff.

And then Carole and Rough Trade comes out

and just in your face.

¶ Butch, you, you gotta be butch ¶

¶ Butch, a butchy butch ¶

Carole was kind of a stud,

a radical gay. No apologies.

It was very empowering to people.

It was the same time as the bathhouse raids here.

¶

Crowd: Gay rights, right now! Gay rights, right now!

Reporter #1: 3500 people turned out to demonstrate against

the raids two weeks ago at four Toronto steam baths.

Reporter #2: This man, who didn't want to appear on camera,

was one of 300 people arrested in the raids.

Man: I no longer feel safe in this community.

And then back around '80 or '81, it was a dangerous time.

Salah: A lot of persecution was happening.

People were being arrested in parks, you know,

names were being published,

people were being fired from their jobs

even at the hint of being gay.

So, it was huge to have Carole out there

and be on stage and be who she was.

Carole was groundbreaking, you know, in coming out

and just saying, you know, "Here I am.

You know where you can go if you don't like it," you know?

Woman: We're good on our end.

- Okay, well. - Carole: Alright.

Shall we dive in, start with Dusty,

and we'll just go along as we do.

Alright.

Okay.

Both: Rolling.

"In the fall of 1981, I met Dusty Springfield.

She was a blonde, beautiful English woman.

If you are a lesbian, you know where this is going."

¶ Don't you see that ¶

¶ Now you've gone ¶

¶ And I'm left here ¶

¶ On my own ¶

Carole: "Dusty Springfield was an icon.

She was part of the collective lesbo consciousness.

We all knew she was gay.

The boys had Rock Hudson, we had Dusty.

¶ You don't have to stay forever ¶

¶ I will understand ¶

"I flew to New York to see her perform at a supper club.

Her voice made me slide off my seat.

After the show, I went backstage to meet Dusty.

We sized each other up.

Yes, the air was thick with sexual tension.

She offered me a drink, and the next thing I knew,

we were all over each other.

There's a joke.

What do lesbians do on their second date?

Bring a U-Haul.

Well, it's painfully true."

Because the big news, and I'd love to tell everyone,

if you don't mind,

is that you're getting married very soon.

That's right, next month.

Host: How 'bout it?

(audience applauding)

Thank you.

Host: The blushing bride?

It's taken you a while to decide--

I haven't blushed yet. (laughing)

Who's the man?

It's about time. He's a Toronto musician.

You wouldn't know him.

That's just Dusty, and she was closeted,

and I couldn't make her come out.

I'd like to introduce a friend of mine.

A living legend!

England's own Dusty Springfield!

"In the spring of 1981,

Dusty, her two cats, and I moved in together."

Dusty Springfield: Which side am I? This side?

I don't know, which side would you like, dear?

Would you like to be on top? No.

"Two divas under one roof. Bad."

Your hair's bigger than mine.

I'm sorry.

Kindly leave the stage.

- Goodbye. - (laughing)

"She'd drink, and sometimes I'd join her,

though, inevitably, I fell into a drunken heap

hours before she did.

Dusty was hell bent on destruction,

and we both knew it."

(audience cheering, applauding)

Okay, well, we're going to sing one of Carole's songs

and Kevan's songs. It's called "Softcore."

¶ You brush by me ¶

¶ And my whole façade just melts ¶

¶ You seem a bit twisted ¶

¶ But that makes me more intrigued ¶

"'Softcore' was about loving an alcoholic.

It was ironic that Dusty ended up recording it.

I was vain and naive enough to think that my loving her

would make everything alright."

¶ Can't seem to get a hold on your love ¶

Carole: "I cared deeply about her,

but it was fucking up my life.

I finally accepted the fact that I had no control over

her behaviour.

We broke up in LA.

It was heart-wrenching.

'White Heat' was released

and there was a dedication to me.

'Because of, and in spite of, Carole Pope.'

I let her voice caress me for years before I met her.

The most erotic thing we would do in bed was this.

She would put her mouth up to my ear,

the sound of her voice, so intimate and close,

washed over me like waves of pure pleasure."

¶ Stay forever, I will understand ¶

¶ Believe me, believe me ¶

¶ Believe me... ¶

Director: Are you still open to love?

Sure. I just haven't met anybody in a long time.

Or...

I haven't been super interested enough to really pursue anybody.

Director: Are you lonely ever?

No, I love me. I'm very amusing.

(director laughing)

Director: What's great about life right now?

Doing this doc. Performing.

Putting out new music.

I released a single called "Play Fisty for Me,"

which is a play on the film

"Play Misty for Me."

This song is about fist fucking, um...

Sometimes I just write songs like that to amuse myself

and you throw them out there and see what happens.

So I'm going to play you "Play Fisty for Me."

¶

¶ Big Sur Malibu Barbie ¶

¶ Driving your car down PCH ¶

¶ Tossing your hair like you don't care ¶

¶ Play fisty for me ¶

Jasun: I still remember walking into a Sunrise Records

and "Shaking the Foundations" was there

and I gasped when I saw that cover.

It was a sort of 1950s "Leave It to Beaver"

idyllic family, but mom is holding a shotgun

aimed at dad's head.

And it was provocative and it was dangerous.

That wound up being a huge part of my own personality,

was being that in people's faces,

and, absolutely, Carole was a huge role model for me.

So, years later, a friend of mine introduced me to Carole

and I was just-- But I said,

"Hey, if you ever need a video done,

give me a shout." She goes, "Actually, I got a new song.

I'm kind of looking to do a video for it.

I don't have any budget at all."

But I'm like, "Honestly, Carole, I don't care about the money.

I am so glad that I get to do a movie where

a dick is not going into a butt."

It might actually be fun to take,

like, outtake clips.

Just, like, close-ups on faces and close-ups on this

and the bottle of lube slipping over.

Just do, like, a montage of stuff like that.

Sure, I would like bits of porn in there.

That would be nice and distasteful.

It would be very distasteful.

You were the one who kind of taught me to just

do what you do. Be as shocking

and be as over the top as you feel like,

and let the reaction be what it is, right?

¶

Sebastian: When "High School Confidential" came out,

I was not yet in high school.

The story of that song turned me on.

I didn't understand that this story is about

a girl wanting a girl.

¶ She's a cool ¶

¶ Blonde, scheming bitch ¶

¶ She makes my body twitch ¶

¶ Walking down the corridor ¶

Rob: Carole, in "High School Confidential,"

captures the feeling of lust better than any songwriter

I have ever known.

¶ I want her so much, I feel sick ¶

An ethnic kid of immigrants who's a straight male,

in my neighbourhood, we heard that song and thought,

"That's a great fucking song." Full stop.

Then you hear it a few more times

and some lyrics pop in and you go,

"What? What are we doing here?"

¶ It makes me cream my jeans when she come my way, oh ¶

"She makes me cream my jeans when she comes my way."

I remember hearing that on like,

AM radio and I was going,

"I can't believe they're playing that."

(laughing) And I would turn it up louder!

¶ High school, high school confidential ¶

Carole: I think we hit on something

because I was singing about two women making love.

We were disrupting the norm, you know, pushing the envelope.

Straight men thought it was hot, queer people thought,

"Finally there's somebody that's speaking to my queerness."

¶ If I don't get her soon, I'll have a heart attack ¶

Peaches: My big bang was

when I heard "High School Confidential."

I guess I was, like, 14,

in suburban Toronto

on the edge of Steeles Avenue and Bayview.

"High School Confidential" was a song about

a woman in high school

lusting after another woman,

and also it was a bona fide hit.

It blew my mind.

k.d. lang: I was probably in my first year of college

and I-- I didn't listen to the radio.

I was very, very alternative, living my life.

So I wasn't aware of "High School Confidential"

until I was watching the Junos.

What can be said about this next group?

In 1980, we were asked to perform on the Junos,

and the Junos was everything because everybody watched them.

I remember sort of sitting there in my living room thinking,

"Everybody else is sitting in their living room watching this,

and their parents are watching this."

Over the past few years, they have developed a huge

cult following. Known as one of the most

provocative bands around these parts, they've just--

Jann: My mom had a little black and white television,

and I believe I would have been in about 10th grade.

So, 16 years old in southern Alberta.

And I'm, you know, ironing my dad's hankies.

Ladies and gentlemen, Carole Pope and Rough Trade!

¶

¶ She's a cool ¶

¶ Blonde, scheming bitch ¶

¶ She makes my body twitch ¶

¶ Walking down the corridor ¶

¶

¶ You can hear ¶

¶ Her high stilettos click ¶

¶ I want her so much I feel sick ¶

¶ The girl can't help it ¶

¶ She really can't help it now ¶

¶ It's like a high school ¶

¶ A high school confidential ¶

k.d. lang: Carole's performance on the Junos was so strong

and beautiful, and just to see

the unapologetic matter-of-factness.

Peaches: The way she was expressing herself physically

and with her humour, this was like something

I'd never seen, and something I related to.

¶ Combination Anita Eckberg ¶

¶ Mamie Van Doren ¶

¶ Dagmar, a high school confidential ¶

(audience cheering)

Carole: We rehearsed at the CBC, and they specifically asked me

not to grab my crotch.

And we did the run-through, and I did not grab my crotch.

¶ What's the principal doing with her? ¶

¶ Who's that guy? ¶

And then on live TV, of course I grabbed my crotch!

¶ What's her perfume? ¶

¶ Tigress by Fabergé ¶

¶ It makes me cream my jeans when she come my way, oh ¶

Why? Because, you know, don't tell me how to perform.

¶ High school confidential ¶

Jann: I think the Junos literally sent me into

a tizzy for a month.

I'm sitting there ironing my dad's kerchiefs, thinking,

"Well, maybe I can do this. You can be anybody."

k.d. lang: It was just like a recognition

that "we are here."

Just by being who she was made me comfortable,

and I just went, "Yeah, we're gonna do this.

We're gonna show up."

¶

Announcer: Peaches, one of the most outspoken

and daring musicians performing today.

Globally, her impact is enormous.

Announcer: She's brash, she's sassy,

and she's not afraid to sing about sex.

It's supposed to be humorous and angry and funny,

and why-- why do you have to separate all of those things,

- you know? - Right.

Much of Peaches is her own doing,

but the connection between her and Carole doesn't seem

very strange to me. It seems very natural.

Carole Pope, I heard her at a very young age,

and she really captured my attention.

¶ Rock 'n' Roll, Rock 'n' Roll, Rock 'n' roll ¶

When I started my first solo band,

I was like, "I'm gonna find my way

using Carole's inspiration."

¶ Huh? What? ¶

¶ Fuck the pain away, fuck the pain away ¶

Carole: Maybe I gave her permission.

She, like, took the idea

and she really fuckin' ran with it.

¶ Fuck the pain away, Fuck the pain away ¶

Peaches: We both lived in LA around the same time,

and then we started to become friends

and we got to collaborate on "Lesbians in the Forest."

¶ Nymphs, fairies, witches, not a cock in sight ¶

¶ 'Cause sisters are doing themselves all night ¶

¶ Yeah, lesbians in the forest ¶

¶

¶ We're lesbians in the forest ¶

This year's International Icon Award

recipient is Peaches!

(audience cheering, applauding)

Peach, you're such a badass.

Every time I see you perform, I'm blown away.

I love you.

Really, I've never seen a performer like you,

and I've seen everybody and I've slept with everybody!

(audience laughing, applauding)

Peaches: Thank you so much. It's full circle,

because when I was 13

and I saw this one on TV

and had this, like, hit song that said--

¶ It makes me cream my jeans ¶

¶ When she comes my way ¶

--I was awoken.

(audience cheering, applauding)

And I never looked back, and it's all your fault!

(audience cheering, applauding)

¶

¶ I pushed her tense face ¶

¶ Away from me ¶

¶ I pushed her tense face away from me ¶

Carole: People really loved this song.

I obviously was, like, kind of at the top of my '80s game.

¶ Like a razor blade on glass ¶

¶ All touch, but no contact ¶

¶ It hit me like, it hit me like,

¶ It hit me like a slap ¶

¶ Oh-oh, all touch ¶

TV Host: Here is the album Rough Trade,

it's "For Those Who Think Young,"

an excellent album,

and I hope we hear a lot more of them.

Rough Trade, already hitting Adelaide and Perth.

¶ Rim of a cocktail glass ¶

Carole: "All Touch" did chart in the U.S.

We were just beside ourselves to hear our music on the radio

and to get to be on TV and get to do great gigs

and to meet amazing people.

We were getting a lot of attention.

Like, "Oh my god, we're-- we're happening."

¶ All touch and all touch and no contact ¶

I literally cannot walk down the street

without being recognized.

I don't know what to do.

Jeanne: When you talk about being successful,

what does that mean to you?

Where do you see yourself down the road?

Carole: I mean, we want to, you know,

get an American record deal and make some albums

and do all that.

What can I say? I hope we sell a million.

¶ Let's dance ¶

¶ Put on your red shoes and dance the blues ¶

The Serious Moonlight Tour is currently certified

as the biggest ever in the history of rock.

Fans enjoyed performances by his special guests,

Rough Trade.

Ten years and five albums later,

they're on the verge of full-fledged,

international star status.

It's a pleasure to turn now to the Juno Award-winning

combination of Carole Pope and Kevan Staples.

This is Rough Trade.

¶

It was just like pure joy.

It was fabulous to do those gigs in front of that audience.

¶ Her hands slid down into ¶

¶ The moistness of herself ¶

¶ She pulled her knees up spread eagle on the bed ¶

So, we'd get up and we'd do a set,

and I could see David watching us from the sidelines

and went, "Oh my God, David's watching us."

¶ Crimes ¶

¶ Crimes of passion ¶

Rob: Bowie apparently liked them.

His management reached out and said

Bowie would be interested in having them open up for him

on further dates, which would be big exposure,

obviously, for the group.

Now, Rough Trade was not in a position to afford

to do that kind of travelling, full band, equipment,

techs, and so on.

So, they go to the major, in this case, Columbia Records

and they asked for tour support.

(song ending)

(audience cheering, applauding)

Thank you!

(audience cheering, applauding)

They would not give us tour support.

Columbia thought this is not worth the investment,

and, obviously, as a band, that's crushing.

(audience cheering, applauding)

Thank you and goodnight!

(audience cheering, applauding)

Carole: We could have gone on to Australia, the U.S.

It certainly would have helped us break out as artists.

It just ruined all the momentum that we had going forward.

Director: Are you bitter about that?

Fuck, yeah!

Carole: In the late '80s, I really wanted to go to LA

to see if I could get a record deal.

I was trying to manifest a recording career

as a solo artist, but did not happen.

Nobody rolled out the red carpet for me.

You know what's funny? I was just reading something

on you, Carole, and somebody asked you your age,

because we're speaking about that,

and you said, "I'm however old Alannah Myles says she is."

- (laughing) - Whatever.

Man: At a certain point, it matters less and less,

- I find. - Yeah.

No, you haven't reached that age yet.

Carole: Maybe age did factor into it,

and also in retrospect, I don't think my songwriting

was good enough at that point.

Rob: Popular music's an ageist world,

especially if you want to be cutting edge.

Carole: I was disappointed at first,

but I evolved as a songwriter,

got to work with some amazing musicians,

had a really great band in LA

Eventually, I was just like, "I'm just gonna self-release.

I'm gonna be the boss of me and record my own stuff."

Announcer: She's back in the spotlight again.

Pope entertained with material from

her just-released solo CD, "Radiate."

Carole: The craziest thing I did was this EP

called "Music for Lesbians."

I own all my masters and I'm in creative control.

George: You have another record!

Finally.

Is it harder to try to

find your way into relevance in the modern culture?

Is it harder to get people to know that you're still

doing this and you still have a relative voice?

God, yeah. It's like, you know, it's stressful to be me.

You know, I had to raise the money to make it,

but then all these great players ended up being on it,

and I'm really, really happy with it.

I look at Carole Pope and I'm like,

"For the bulk of your life, you've been you."

She's so authentic to her,

probably for good and for bad.

(elevator bell dinging)

Carole: Come on, everyone!

I'm not willing to compromise on making music the way

I want to make music or performing music the way

I want to perform music.

¶

Man: We have the moment you've been waiting for.

The icon, the legend that is Carole Pope in the house.

¶ Play fisty for me ¶

¶

"Play Fisty for Me," Carole Pope here on the Shaun Proulx Show.

You're such a naughty girl.

(both laughing)

It's a good gay anthem. I hope it turns into--

It's a great gay anthem. I think it's a sexy song.

Yeah.

I'm so happy to see you.

I'm happy to see you!

I always feel so good when I see you.

You give me the good vibes.

Oh, me too.

I think you ooze sex.

Really?

I do, I do, and I think that's another reason

why everyone loves you.

Um, well, that's flattering.

- Yeah. - 'Cause I'm 105 years old.

(both laughing)

Pride's coming up and I wonder what you make of

all of the attacks on the queer community,

the trans community, especially.

The right wing is following the Hitler playbook.

Let's pick on minorities. Let's pick on the gays.

Let's pick on people of colour. Let's pick on immigrants.

You know, it's not new. Not new to me.

What must we do in the face of all of this?

We must educate ourselves and be aware of what's going on

and fight back, as always.

(people shouting, cheering)

Man: Off the sidewalks, into the street!

Protestors: Act up! Fight back! Fight AIDS!

Act up! Fight back! Fight AIDS!

Carole: All of New York is ghosty to me.

When Rough Trade started performing,

we were in New York all the time and we were part of that scene

of artists and crazy bands

and the Mapplethorpe era,

performance art and all of that.

We craved that lifestyle and those people,

and it was just more uninhibited and people were open to

what we were doing and it was just an amazing time.

Panic back stage, I can't get my guitar.

Carole: My brother, Howard, moved to New York

in the early '80s.

He was in a crazy avant-garde band called Zette.

¶

We hung out all the time.

We bonded when it came to music and we loved art.

We loved a lot of the same things.

(singing indistinctly)

He was like the male version of me, but only more radical.

¶

Yeah, there are some meat packing from ye olden days.

Howard took me to the Meat Packing District

and we went to gay bars.

Yeah, my brother, Howard, enjoyed the best of New York

and worked at all these great bars.

He went to these amazing clubs.

But when AIDS first started, it just spread like wildfire.

We weren't sure you couldn't drink from the same glass,

you weren't sure you could be in the same space,

but no one was helping you, no one was looking for a cure.

It took two years of the whole pandemic

to even mention the word AIDS.

Carole: So many great artists died.

If I was to try and start and write a list,

I wouldn't be able to because I'd be in tears after

the third or fourth name.

Carole: I was like, "I wanna do what I can

to help educate people."

Reporter: Tonight's benefit raised about $50,000 to help

build a place for AIDS victims to die with dignity.

It's called a hospice.

You know, they should just make it as pleasant as possible.

I mean, you know it's gonna happen. Um...

It really should be done with dignity.

Protestors: Act up! Fight back! Fight AIDS!

Act up! Fight back! Fight AIDS!

Carole: Howard got involved in Act Up,

because doctors and politicians were

ignoring this while it was going on.

Protestors: Healthcare is a right!

Healthcare is a right!

Healthcare is a right! Healthcare is a right!

Healthcare is--

Howard called and he said,

"I'm positive."

It was completely shocking.

I just tried to be with him as much as possible

and support him.

I was in Toronto,

and my sister called me and said,

"It's not looking good for Howard.

You should come," And I got on a plane

and just didn't make it in time.

He died while I was flying there.

He was just such a bright light to me,

such an inspiration.

I really, really loved Howard,

and I just miss him all the time.

Sometimes I feel haunted by an army of ghosts,

because these beautiful, bright lights were gone,

these really radical thinkers,

but I feel lucky to have met a lot of those people

and seen their art,

and I want them to be celebrated.

It was just an amazing time.

(waves lapping)

¶

Director: When playing Prides,

does it still mean something to you?

Of course it does.

I remember how freaking hard it was for me to come out,

you know, when I first had those crazy,

crazy lesbo stirrings. (laughing)

We've come a long way, and I just have so much love

and so much history in Toronto.

Just keep fighting the good fight

and I love you all so much!

(audience cheering, applauding)

Over all these years,

I've probably played hundreds of Prides.

Really nostalgic about the early Toronto Prides

when it was just on Church Street

and you were more or less standing on a milk carton.

I don't know, I just thought that time was really sexy.

I guess that was the '90s.

Everybody was so joyous then,

and I don't think we felt threatened.

We're just like, "This is our street.

This is our Pride.

We're gonna, you know, go insane."

(people cheering)

And now it's more corporate, more haters.

Director: More haters now?

Well, they're just more visible.

Rufus Wainwright: Things are really crumbling in terms of

gay rights and women's rights and trans rights.

We seem to be going backwards in this department,

and I actually feel that a lot of the toughness

and a lot of the grit that Carole's generation

has exhibited we're gonna need, because we don't know how this

baby is going to end.

¶

Woman: I'm excited for your performance today!

Oh, thank you.

Would you sign this record for me, please?

Carole, may I take a photo with you?

Sure.

Thank you so much for stopping.

Nick, come closer, come closer. A little higher.

Thank you!

You really changed my high school.

Sign this to Nicholas?

Like "High School Confidential,"

really, like for us queer kids.

Oh, my gosh.

(fans chattering)

Stage Manager: You're on at 8:10.

So, you wanna be ready to go up,

standby, by 8:00 o'clock.

Okay. Is that your name, Slut?

- Yes! - Oh.

- Very nice. - Thank you.

- See you soon. - Bye. Okay.

(audience cheering)

Happy Pride, Toronto!

(audience cheering)

Oh, here's a song about sex, just for a change.

This is called "Crimes of Passion."

(audience cheering)

¶

I was a gay 14-year-old.

¶ Johnny and Eddie lay in bed ¶

¶ Their limbs entwined ¶

"Johnny and Eddie lay in bed, their legs entwined."

¶ Their tanned bodies bathed in sweat ¶

¶ They look like two young gods ¶

"Their tanned bodies bathed in sweat.

They look like two young gods."

At that moment, I remember just going,

"Wait, so I can actually grow up and be a young god.

I don't have to be these awful things

that other people are calling me."

¶ Beg for his life ¶

Carole: I always thought that gay men were very beautiful,

and I was very turned on by just the whole gay image.

They had Tom of Finland.

I loved all the leather daddies, the S&M.

I thought they were erotic

and I did compare them to Greek gods.

I wanted people to know that's--

that's the way I thought of gay men.

¶ Crimes of passion Crimes of passion ¶

¶ Crimes ¶

Jasun: That was the first time that

I ever heard gay men described

in a positive, sexual, sexy way.

¶ Crimes ¶

Rufus: When I went to make my first records in LA,

it was nerve-wracking for a lot of executives.

They were kind of nitpicking through my lyrics, you know,

just to, "Can't you just pretend to be bisexual?"

Like, there was like a real push to put me into this box,

and then you listen to what Carole was putting out

and it's like, wow.

¶ Crimes of passion ¶

I think she's saved thousands and thousands of people.

Not just young women. Queer men, trans people.

By writing things that people could attach themselves to.

¶ Crimes of passion ¶

That's what music's about.

¶ Crimes, crimes ¶

¶ Crimes of passion ¶

(audience cheering)

Carole: Woo! Oh, thank you so much!

(audience cheering)

Uh-oh. I am not on my monitor anymore.

Monitor, Sweetie.

Oh, is that- Oh, I think we're cut off.

Are we cut off?

They didn't have a stage manager.

Every festival needs a stage manager to tell you

when you're on and when you're off.

Every fucking festival I've played at has that

except this one.

(audience jeering)

Sorry!

(audience cheering)

Oh, we got cut off.

I didn't know that was gonna happen.

I'm so sorry. It was over time,

and we were going into changeover.

Oh, okay.

Well, I wish somebody had told us.

She wants to walk on with the mic,

so she'll take it.

So insulting! Cheers, not queers!

Cheers, not queers.

Man: They could have given us a fuckin' five-minute warning.

But as I was saying to Carole, in our 38 years--

Never!

Never have we ever had that happen.

- No. - It was disrespectful.

Yeah.

Yeah. I know, I wish--

(audience cheering)

This era doesn't care about history.

It's just not important to a lot of the younger people,

which is fine, but I would want people to

try to remember all of the energy it would have taken

to walk out into the '70s

and be Carole Pope.

Women didn't get to look like her,

didn't get to speak like her,

didn't get to present anything like her.

You know, there are a lot of people standing on the shoulders

of Carole Pope, and they don't even know it.

¶

(horns honking)

Hey, it's me.

Carole and chaos.

I'm in a mirrored room.

It's kind of pretty glamorous and kinky at the same time.

This is New York.

It's like 90 fucking degrees out.

I'm apartment hunting. Over and out.

I'm trying to find an apartment in New York,

but it's crazy because I'm competing with 250

trust-fund babies wherever I go.

I'll take this house right here.

It's not too ostentatious for me.

¶

I've been working on a musical.

It's based on my brother's life.

It's New York in the '80s,

the club scene, the music scene,

the joy and drama of the '80s

and what people went through because of AIDS.

My friend Kate Rigg wrote the book.

Kate Rigg: The great love of her life was her brother, Howie,

and he was such an interesting guy,

and he was talented and a little crazy,

but it's not just about Howie, it's about her having to

keep living after her brother dies.

Carole: So far, we've done some workshops

where we've worked on the music.

We've worked on the script with several actors.

¶ ...You push it ¶

¶ On the line ¶

Carole: So, now we have to go get funding to do

a concert performance and invite producers.

I think what we have is great. The music is phenomenal.

I think the writing is phenomenal,

the direction is phenomenal, and I really just think

that we have to invite them and they will come--

- Woman: Yes. - --and they will see.

Like, allow the quality of the work to speak for itself.

The younger generation, like, people my age and below,

are like, we didn't grow up with the role models

that we could have because of what happened in the '80s

and with the AIDS epidemic,

and it's, like, stories like this that, like,

allow for the younger generation to be like,

"This is what happened before you were here."

Kate: This generation of adults now

has grown up trans, queer, fluid, non-binary,

but they were relating to that story of,

like, queer liberation, sex positivity,

and all the stuff that Carole was espousing in the '80s.

I mean, it's still, unfortunately, necessary now.

Male host: Whenever I meet up with you again,

you were never where I last left you.

You're on the West Coast, you're in London,

you're in Toronto.

Do you have any place that you sort of call home

or are you on the road and in hotels a lot?

Carole: Um, I'm just, yeah, I'm nowhere, really.

Female host: Oh, you're just no fixed address?

Yeah. I'm in transit.

Female host: Okay.

(beeping)

Everybody's gotta come in with me, or...

¶

(chuckling)

Being a true artist, I think it's cost me

some stability in life.

My greatest struggle is just trying to earn a living

and housing insecurity.

I moved back to LA a little over a year ago,

but I'm only there this time because the rent's cheap,

and I'm trying to find an apartment in New York

because of this musical.

¶

This is my main storage unit, and then I have, like,

a closet in Toronto that's got clothes in it.

God, I have a lot of stuff.

This is normally to ship art in,

but I just move the wheels

and use it as a giant coffee table.

Director: And what's in it?

My gold and platinum albums.

¶

Faded memories!

Ooh, sheet music.

I'm just very worried about

preserving all this stuff though.

Kevan!

Let's see.

Oh.

1983 Junos.

Alan Thicke: Now in the category of Best Female Vocalist,

here are the nominees.

Or the nominettes.

"Jessie Burns, Joni Mitchell,

Anne Murray, Carole Pope, and Shari Ulrich."

And the winner is...

Female Vocalist of the Year, Carole Pope!

(audience cheering, applauding)

Oh, my God! It's Carole Pope! Woo!

Director: Wow, you beat Joni Mitchell!

Yeah.

(audience cheering, applauding)

Carole: Thank you. How tasteful of you all.

I really can't believe it.

I'd like to thank True North,

CBS, Bernie Finkelstein, and Kevan Staples.

Thank you very much!

(audience cheering, applauding)

k.d. lang: Obviously, she paved the way for me,

but Carole's position of being the person pushing,

pushing, pushing, had pros and cons.

Interviewer: Now, Carole, you've been described as

the 1980s' Mae West,

and most of your writing...

(snorting)

...as well as your on-stage performance,

is done in very sexual roles.

I mean, I was very typecast as, like, a "raunch queen."

Well, most of our lyrics are sexual,

but it's really sexual satire, and if people see me,

they can see that it's done with a sense of humour.

Back a number of years ago when you were singing

"High School Confidential," and one of the lines in the song

has to do with creaming your jeans.

Carole: I just was annoyed with the media

and being typecast and not being appreciated

as artists who evolve.

¶

Kevan: I think that Rough Trade had reached this level

where we'd run the gamut in Canada,

but we couldn't get a record deal in

the United States or Europe.

Carole: We were just frustrated in a lot of ways,

but also I wasn't like anybody else

and I was kind of androgynous and kind of...

You know, I don't know if record companies got us.

Dudes only like lesbians when they've got big tits

and pretty nails. For men who run the American labels,

Carole shows up, she's, like, kind of a hot woman

but she's also a dude, and you're like, "The fuck?

Like, I don't understand. Like, does not compute."

People don't throw money at that,

'cause it doesn't make them feel comfortable.

It's threatening.

Okay, this is a song about a slut.

They're still chasing dreams and never ever

really able to realize them,

because one of the things with Rough Trade,

the shock value was great,

but over time, with the winds of change

in terms of understanding sexuality,

embracing different sexualities,

it no longer was shocking.

So, one of the biggest things that helped put them out there

became not really that important.

(camera clicking)

Carole: Yeah, I was always ready to move to New York or LA

and, you know, really go for it,

but Kevan was not into leaving Toronto.

I had just had a daughter.

So, I was perfectly happy to stay here in Toronto.

Carole: I had to go to LA and see if I could

make something happen.

Kevan: We'd had it.

We felt we could go no further.

¶

(audience applauding)

Well, this is the very last performance...

(audience cheering, applauding)

...of Rough Trade.

(audience cheering, applauding)

You people are animals and I love you for it.

(audience cheering, applauding)

¶ When you look at me ¶

¶ It's like any grade B-movie ¶

¶ I whisper, "Hello, Johnny" ¶

¶ Don't stop, not now ¶

¶ Don't stop, Johnny, don't stop, Johnny ¶

¶ I know, (Don't stop) ¶

I do remember that night.

¶ Don't stop, Johnny Don't stop, Johnny ¶

Yeah, it was very--

¶ Don't stop ¶

It's very moving.

¶

Yeah, it's sad.

¶

I think in retrospect,

I wouldn't have broken up the band.

(audience cheering, applauding)

Oh, maybe we just should have taken a break.

(audience cheering, applauding)

Director: Any regrets?

Yeah, that's a good question. Any regrets? I mean...

(audience cheering, applauding)

If I have a regret, maybe I should have just

kept writing with Carole.

(audience cheering, applauding)

¶

I grew up hearing Rough Trade on the radio.

Decades have gone by,

but as soon as I heard her voice again,

it gives me chills.

The fact that nobody was representing Carole's music

for sync was shocking to me.

We would love to pitch your solo material for sync.

You just have such a distinct, unique voice, and...

What we try to do is find other streams of revenue for songs.

So, we pitch them for sync placements in a TV show

or a film or an ad.

We are a creative publisher, and what we love to do is,

you know, get people writing to briefs.

So, how much time do you actually have for songwriting?

- Yeah, I just want to write. - Yeah.

I do want to write music, and I need to write

more material for myself.

And so, yeah, I'm totally open to whatever.

- Okay, cool. - As you keep writing songs,

like, just send them our way and, yeah.

I really like what you're doing

and that you're such a creative publishing entity.

Sync me, baby.

- (laughing) - Kim: Let's go!

¶

Man: Hey, Tim.

Tim: Good morning.

(gasping) Thank you!

Butter tart.

My favourite.

Tim: We spend a lot of time together.

The show is, like, the easy part.

You're with these people the other, you know,

22 and a half hours. So, you become very close, and--

Yeah, or you want to kill some of them.

Yes. What?

(Carole laughing)

¶

- (audience applauding) - Carole: Thank you!

(audience cheering, applauding)

So, my darling, darling Kevan Staples,

he's in surgery.

So, everybody should send him love

'cause he's such an amazing person.

He's been having a lot of health issues lately.

So, I'm thinking of him.

(audience cheering, applauding)

¶

¶

Kate: We are so happy to have you here for the first ever

public anything of "Rough Trade: The Musical."

(audience cheering, applauding)

So, that's Howard Pope.

He unfortunately succumbed to AIDS in 1995.

Carole: There's always gonna be an open wound about Howard,

because he died such a tragic death,

but I really want this musical to go,

because I'm bringing him to life a little bit.

¶ The hard smile, it's voice going on ¶

It's a celebration of Howard's life.

¶ ...on glass ¶

¶ All touch, but no contact ¶

I want people to know about

the joy and drama of the '80s.

I think it's a story that needs to be told,

especially now with all the sheer pig fuckery

that's going on.

I think we really have to unite as a community,

now more than ever.

We are "Rough Trade, The Musical" in concert!

Thanks for being here!

(audience cheering, applauding)

...One in 1900 was women...

It was just amazing working with all these queer kids

in New York. I mean, it was just so moving.

Carole and I, when we first started out,

I think we always dreamed of being in a musical.

Like, we both loved musicals, so.

Yeah.

Rough Trade was equally about, like,

"One day we're going to be in a musical," you know?

- "One day we'll write a show." - (laughing)

A dream come true!

Carole: A dream!

An impossible dream? I think not.

No, I think not.

How are you doing?

I'm doing okay.

All the physical aspects, of course, are annoying.

Like, right now, I can't play the piano because of this hand.

So, that's annoying, but then, you know,

we have a beautiful day like this and everything's good,

and sometimes you start thinking about legacy,

and sometimes you think about things that you'd like to

do before, you know, and who matters in your life,

and, yeah, all that stuff.

I was thinking about you,

and I think about the relationship a lot,

and how important it is to both of our lives.

I think my life would be entirely different without her

in it, of course, and, you know, conversely,

hers would be different without me in it.

There's a chemistry there that is quite clearly palpable.

You know, it's like you complete each other.

(chuckling)

Kevan: I love you.

Carole: I love you, too.

Kevan: You're my hero. You're my hero.

Carole: You're my guy.

¶

¶

See, it's fabulous driving with Timmy,

'cause we go the scenic way.

- It's beautiful. - Yeah.

Did you hear back from Andrew?

Yes, I talked to him.

He's all game. He's gonna start programming.

- We'll make a set list. - Yeah.

We'll do "Transcend." We'll do...

Tim: Yeah, everything.

..."Play Fisty."

We'll do whatever, our funkiest tunes.

Tim: We've never talked about the end game.

It's just always next week, next month,

'cause there's always projects on the go.

Carole will always be performing.

I just can't see her stopping,

'cause it's who she is.

Carole: I'm proud that I got to work with Kevan

and record some iconic songs

and that I had a voice and I got it out there.

Music is not a steady climb.

Any kind of art is not a steady climb,

but she's as superb now and as unique

and as magnificent as she ever was.

George: The human experience has always been

about the quest for truth.

When some real authentic truth pops out, you know it.

k.d. lang: To see the comfort and the strength

and the commitment to

her being herself,

it was like the keys to the Porsche.

Peaches: When I saw her,

I just knew something would change forever.

Carole: I don't know what I set out to do in life,

I just, you know, wanted to make art,

and I'm still doing that.

It's just ever evolving.

¶

I really don't want to be in a rock group forever,

'cause I'm getting old, and I--

I don't think I can last that long.

(chuckling)

¶

I want you, right now, to Google "Carole Pope"

and then I want you to go on Spotify

and I want you to smoke a big fatty

and listen to what she has to say.

"There's a ground swell sending shockwaves through the world."

"Is it the coming of the antichrist?"

Uh, here's my picture with me and Carole in the '80s.

I was obsessed actually. (laughing)

I stripped to Carole Pope's "High School Confidential"

in my high school gym.

"What's that principal doing with her?"

"Who's that guy? Is he screwing with her?"

"What's her perfume? Tigress by Faberge."

¶ It makes me cream my jeans ¶

¶ When she comes my way ¶

You know who AI is never gonna replace?

Uh, fucking Carole Pope.

"She pulled her knees up spread eagle on the bed."

Woo! Oh, my God!

I guess I wasn't really listening to these lyrics.

Viva Carole Pope.

¶ I wanna rip the clothes off your back ¶

¶ You know I need you ¶

¶ Can't tell ya how much ¶

¶ Emotional blackmail ¶

¶ Got me in its clutch ¶

¶ What the hell do you want? ¶

¶ I'm paralyzed when you call my name ¶

¶ I'm traumatized, now you're to blame... ¶