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you think I'm shit well you're wrong

because I'm champagne and your shit until the day you die

Charlotte I'm so happy that you're available to chat with me today because

what many people may not know is that we have history because I was your quote

teacher at film school and I was a big champion of your work when you were a

student there and and saw immediately this is a filmmaker even if you didn't

know that you were even if you didn't quite have that confidence so I always

appreciated you as a students that I could have there was a grown-up okay and

whose work was grown up as well and we've always had serious talks about

film and and the challenges of film and so I'm happy you were here to do this

I have some questions somewhat sequentially through the journey of the

film perhaps or the process of making a film you were happiness on the back of

welcome to the dollhouse breaking out at Toronto and at Sundance it was a hit it

was the first film you made on your own terms how were you feeling and I was

happy you were happy I was very happy it's success it's a good thing it's a

it's it's it's I prefer success to failure people say you learn a lot from

failure I learn a lot more from success and this success I opened so many doors

and so I had to take advantage of that situation because I knew what might

never happen again and so I wrote something I suppose that had been

simmering not so much on a conscious level for a while and I let it come out

and I saw it was a little bit charged and and almost all of those doors closed

when they read the script but when you were writing were you able to push out

the success of dollhouse that did the specter of critics or audience or

people's expectations limb upon you at all or what I wanted to do I as I said

I knew how precious this was this opportunity this window to do what I

wanted meanwhile they wanted I think Fox the TV station they wanted to create a

sitcom based on dollhouse and fine by me I was curious I mean that the more

banal or the more tacky it would be I would be fine with it I you know the

movie is what it is so I didn't worry about that there's some for some odd

reason I became a movie director even though really I grew up watching TV so

much much more than I ever watched movies I don't think moving away from

the sitcom is totally outside of happiness because it feels as though you

know it is rooted not just in society and suburban life but in the way that

that is presented in mainstream media and in sitcoms so on point exactly

because in fact a lot of musical interstitial moments you know I wanted I

thought of like the way in which families are presented in in sitcoms and

all of that certainly infused my sense of the the world reality that I was

setting up here that's why it puzzles me that I became a movie person and not a

TV person but but I just brought the TV into the movie and and kind of used it

to amplify things about the world that I'm putting yeah well I think it also

amplifies the discomfort because you align yourself with the characters in a

way that you might in a sitcom certain things are set up like scenes or

introductions of characters or Bill entering the home to that music queue

and then the microwave dinging and it kind of answers this very familiar scene

off the back of him having picked up that Timbo magazine

that's the trap you know you want to seduce your audience you want to win

them over and no better way than giving them certain kinds of familiar as they

call them tropes or what have you from the TV world and to kind of make it

accessible and relatable in a way yeah because that's the point here is that

for me you you want to engage emotionally with your audience even as

at the at the same time there's a kind of detachment that where where a certain

kind of irony or a comedy plays in you know and so

it's it's always fraught with that kind of ambiguity

you mentioned like earlier you know learning more through success than

failure being preferable and I think in class there were many kind of adages

like that that you gave us but one that related specifically to writing was let

the audience say this is fucked up let the characters be true to their own

perversions I think that's certainly the case I'm not so judgmental well not but

I think it's a it's a it's about being judgmental and not being judgmental of

the characters yourself and I think that's necessary when you're writing a

character or channeling them it's true and and look for the actors as well you

can't play these characters without in some sense and without inhabiting them

with love I mean you have to love your character and believe in the truth of

your character and the struggle of your character in order to make it feel real

you can't be commenting on it you have to inhabit it and that's what makes it

scary and because it feels real that's the aim and is that something that

always comes naturally to use a writer to your actors or is it something you

have to stay vigilant about I don't know I don't self analyze so much I just do

you ever look at the page and find that you have been judgmental of a character

I don't think in that way I mean when I'm writing I become an actor you know

I'm playing I'm playing joy and then I'm playing and yeah I inhabit it as best I

can both ways and so while I might not agree or subscribe to the beliefs or

morality what-have-you of these characters or their judgment I should

say of these characters I try to be true to them yeah I might say no don't do that

but that's who they are you know and so I try to be an actor as I'm writing it

and you know and I'm only ready to show the script to producers and so forth if

I feel then it's got a kind of charge to it it's an emotional experience for me

from beginning to end and if it's not it's making movies is just too hard for

me to put myself through that that nightmare yeah what's up did you hear

what happened to Pedro you know the night doorman oh yeah what he was found

bludgeoned to death in his apartment this morning yeah and supposedly um his

penis was missing oh did you share drafts of the script with like not

producers but with with friends did you make adjustments based on I had a couple

of friends that are not filmmakers but I but they read and I would give the

script when I was writing it in 30 page installments and I'd have one question

you know do you want to know what happens next that's all you know and

they said yeah keep let's see the next set section you know so that's how I

wrote it and in four parts like that because movies are kind of merciless they

have this motor and if you don't put enough substance into that motor if the

motors not strong enough it's the script is gonna putter ya know so and and the

best way to assess where you are is to ask that question do I want to know or

do I care what happens next having been an onset with you and having read

interviews and and what should infuse with your actors I think you're a lot

more deliberate in knowing exactly what you're looking for and working toward

that do you leave room to be surprised by what happens on set were there

moments in happiness specifically where your intention or a scene or a moment

changed based on based on what you saw yeah I mean things definitely it's funny

it move it a movie a chain it you know it everything depends on the material is

seen and so forth sometimes I there is space for improvisation within very

strict parameters and sometimes no there is there is very little room but the

actors just have to trust that the material the text itself gives them what

they need the fuel to to to play it out I think there were a number of scenes

that like I said oh I didn't you know I didn't anticipate this you know but

sometimes you know sometimes you're surprised in not such a good way but

sometimes in a good way you know when you write a a script it really sinks or

swims on on the basis of the actors and what the actors can do with it they make

you look like a better writer yeah all of your collaborators do ideally that's

exactly exactly do you remember positive surprises on this yeah yeah there were

things well you know it was puzzling you know I remember the big dramatic scene

towards the end where the father and the son have this dialogue this their final

dialogue like I didn't tell this kid to cry or anything you know I just you know

but he was very emotionally attuned to what was going on and had formed a real

bond with the actor Dylan Baker and so it was I never I never felt incumbent

upon me to explain any of this to an 11 year olds I left that to his parents who

were always around on set or the father was I think mainly the person who would

be there and because I felt it was the parents to discuss any of this but he

had the full context of what his role was of what that relationship what does

an eleven-year-olds understands or make of it all you know their words on a page

he the only way he can come through is if he has an emotional connection in

some way he doesn't have to can't possibly understand the ramifications in

the way that we do as an adult but what he does do is respond emotionally to

what he understands is going on yeah that scene but that's not I didn't say I

never told a kid anywhere you know I need you to cry here you know but you

set up a kind of atmosphere situation and you have a kind of text to work with

that it's it's a kind of mysterious intuitive kind of response that the

actor has to the scenario the thing about directing is to be alert to the

unexpected and know how to when it's good thing that you're capturing you

know to recognize it and to capture it even though it was never there on the

shot list or in the script you know you have to be alive to what is happening in

front of you on the screen that's the fun it can't be it's very stressful it

is but that's where I find the most that's what balances out the suffering

of production of those moments right well yeah don't you have a few of those

moments and the rest is like but there's more moments of those in production than

in writing or in post-production I find which is what makes production for me

completely counter to my entire personality that the most enjoyable part

and for me production is for the most hellish yeah it is I have because I

don't have the control that I have when I'm writing that's true and there's so

much pressure on you if we you you can get this shot but then you're gonna lose

that scene you know or the Sun is going down in six minutes three minutes we're

looking at clouds you know it's you missed it yeah it's over you know or the

producers saying you have to I think we have to lose a few days we're over

schedule and I am that's why I'm not the most high rebel kind of director also

because I have yet to make a movie that that wraps on budget on schedule it's

just never happened so I I'm a fail you're in that sense you know production

it's funny that's the catch you know the paradox is that you know you want as

many days as possible when you're in production because you see how much work

it is yeah but I can't wait till it's over and I wish I could get it done much

in a much shorter amount of time of course but that's not that's not how it

works you know you shoot for 30 days and you use 20 of them on on screen but yeah

if you only shot the 20 you'd inevitably fuck up or some of it and then you

wouldn't and then you'd be too light to have an entire film you know I think

well unless you if I had thought it through more it doesn't matter how much

you think it through there are too many forces well you're lucky you know some

filmmakers many like you relish the experience of being on set yeah and I am

not cut out of that cloth for me it is really hellish and I see my obituary is

mr. Solon's collapsed on the third day of production of his new movie which

will never be finished etc I think Ang Lee you know if he's making a movie's

got a hundred crew and cast you know he never feels more alive and and for me

it's needless to say where do you suffer least in the process I love

casting and while I I didn't have to get movie stars although I was very strongly

encouraged to get movie stars and and particularly for the part that Dylan

Baker played and fortunately no one of any value wanted to touch the part and

so I was free to cast Dylan who was evidently the right person when he came

in to read for me it was so clear this was the it's funny if someone walks into

a room and that's it you know so I just wanted to take advantage of this freedom

because I never knew if I'd have it again and it's funny you know I'm just

now remembering you know where the part that Phil Hoffman played actually that

was unlike the Dylan Baker's part Phil Hoffman's part every actor wanted to

play that part they would fly in to read it was very stressful they would say

this is me you know um and but Phil I he read for me it's funny the first time

he read I wasn't sure I had I had to call him back and had approached him a

little bit differently and and it was then I knew I had the right person and

and when we shook hands remember he had a very clammy handshake and I said yes

this is the guy you know he was great I loved Phil and he was so prepared yeah

for when he came on set never had any thing but pleasure from both Dylan and

Phil on on the process of making this movie and both of them also had a very

brutally sharp sense of comedy as well did you see the playoffs last night yeah

they're pretty good I was on my knees praying for that shot it worked with

almost everybody had a really good experience you worked with the same

editor on this as you did on Dondell House yes yes I've had great

relationships with all my editors and prep is fine I'm good with prep because

there's always a sense of hope and a sense of control there's still the sense

of hope and then it's just it's too late once you're there it's just somehow

somehow the minute you take your first shot like that is it okay and you can't

go back and you can't rethink that is it and you have to live with that well and

then on the end of the first day you think it's okay it's only one day and

then you get to the end of the second day at the end of the first week and

slowly your film disappears I mean to me I don't think it's okay I think alright

you live with compromise you know that's the nature of being a director you're

gonna lose a number of battles but you have to see the big picture and and it

took me years to be able to see the glass half full when I was much younger

I was always had on the half-empty side so I'm actually a much sunnier

personality now than I was back then on set on set it's it's less stressful than

it was with those first few movies yeah yeah you tested this film on oh yeah why

that's what people did back then so you were asked to test it I think so but I

never had a problem testing I actually found it very fruitful um I remember I

remember one member of the audience got up and said I go to the movies regularly

and I feel bad for the director she said because this movie he is

unintentionally funny and I love that comments but I mean some there was one

person who was very angry and swore he was going to come after the filmmaker

and that this movie should never get released so I had different audiences

but I didn't want to get like a hip audience you know the kind of movie that

actually would go see it I guess I just wanted a general audience because when I

write a script when the movie they call it an art movie but really it's very

accessible the narrative there's nothing like confusing about what's going on do

you like a man yes it's not so simple are you lesbian no it's it's not filled

with complicated there's no plot you know there there's series of stories

here and so I I like hearing I like seeing the way in which people respond

different people respond to it and for the most part the people were pretty

rough I found you know it was hard you have to steal yourself for people you

know speaking up and telling you how much they hate the movie yeah or how

terrible and incompetent and idiotic and so forth but you know sometimes it you

know you that's you know you let that go but it's useful you know sometimes in

audiences they really like or don't like a character and it's not maybe the

character but if you make it an adjustment you think I know what it is

you you you kind of try and diagnose really what the problem is you know the

danger was showing friends or people who know the story is that they're not

they're just not fresh to the material and not quite as honest in the way

strangers can be I I tested during the edit yeah with two very different

audiences one that was stacked toward not friends but friends of friends film

school colleagues and another with strangers yeah there were two very

different experiences what did you get something out I did and I and I probably

I got encouragement out of the first experience which was in New York and I

was present for yeah which was nice yeah and the other screenings were in LA and

I listened in remotely they didn't know I was there right and it was absolutely

brittle yeah and probably provided some of the most helpful notes to the film

and not always directly right exactly you have to know how to interpret yeah

what they're saying what is he really saying what is he really feeling why why

are they laughing or not laughing and so forth yeah once the nausea of you just

have to sit around yourself the directness of it all you have your meds

you have whatever it is no it's it's true it's true do you when when you

first screened the film it can then are kind of on the road with it were there

any memorable responses from audience members that made you feel as though

they understood something of you through their understanding of the film or the

point of view or sensibility expressed look I think our audiences when they

watch movie or almost always try to attribute certain characters or

qualities to the filmmaker in ways that are a little bit wrong let's say you

know that that as a filmmaker yes I am reflected and one could say in every

frame of the movie okay I expressed myself through the film but it's so like

a hall of mirrors and so camouflaged you know the the things that who I what I'm

feeling is it you it's hard to know me about me personally although as a

filmmaker yes you can make judgments about me as a filmmaker but it's hard to

know about me personally and yet people like to make judgments or assumptions

about me personally I wondered whether that was something more prevalent now

than it was then this this desire to draw a direct line between films and

filmmakers or writers and the characters and I find that audiences typically look

in the wrong perhaps most obvious place you're the most obvious yes I draw on

all sorts of life experience and people that I know and so forth but in ways

that are not so direct yep and not so clear in the end the the hope is that

people can just experience the movie for the what the movie is yeah not much is

gonna be gained from analyzing the mind of the director I think just it's the

experience of the movie itself that ultimately is what matters but I think

like my original question was like what are the most satisfying audience

responses to you like do you feel some success as as like a person expressing

themselves through this form sometimes in the way you know I feel I love it I

like when an audience member is really moved by what I'm putting out there

where I feel that they really are affected I mean a lot of strangers have

come up to me in real life you know just come up to me and and say things that

are very gratifying sometimes they they share in ways that they wouldn't with

others you know a woman comes up and says you know I was raped and I saw this

movie and it really spoke to me and then she gets on the train yeah I just like

in a flash like that you know people come out and in very strong have very

strong responses and that's to know that what you've done resonates and has

meaning for others and it communicates experience that's very gratifying there

are people that look at them solely as as comedic experiences and while the

comedies there for me it's devoid of value if it doesn't have the emotional

heft that that really for me is what drives it you know a telling story for

example is when it showed at Telluride there was a young man who came up to me

afterwards and I'm sure he was a little drunk or something it like I don't know

he was maybe he was 20 and said man I really love that movie and man that was

hilarious when that kid got raped and I was like you know and I'm thinking what

did what have I brought you know and that's a price you know you pay as a

filmmaker you're not always going to get the response that you hope for yeah and

that people can read it and experience it in very different ways from what you

intend I don't have control over that it's something that you have to accept

about the nature of working in very charged material in this way and that

you're not attacking it in a black and white but rather very ambiguous very um

how should I say implicating kind of way I mean I think like the cultural import

and visibility of some of what is in the film the pedophilia the mass shooting

even the kind of nuclear family and gender roles and relationships they just

have a different context now do you think with the time that's past any

aspects of the film have been kind of strengthened or weakened weakened as a

result of that or have you felt audiences reactions kind of shift as

you've continued to share the film and talk about the film um well I can say

for certain this movie would not have gotten financed today there's no way

this movie would not get made it would this movie wouldn't get released or

dollhouse or storytelling I mean they would not get made in today's world okay

for a host of reasons the way the culture supposedly you know if you want

to call it that things have shifted you know and yes movies always take on

different meaning as they age you know the way we look at movies we love from

from the 50s and now oh my god I can't believe I love that and like it's

forbidden to love this movie now and but or you know do you love it in a

different way or do you now detach yourself from that experience what what

value does it really what does it really mean to you now so things are always

in flux you know all movies take on different meanings as time passes and

that's what that makes them more interesting and that's why they're

always trying to save these artifacts of movies that may not be a question being

great but they are reflective of the world yeah of course in which they took

place you know and and you want to acknowledge and recognize the truth of

the way in which the world's operated rather than the way you think today in

this particular time imposing your morality today on what was a different

time I mean I know you say you don't kind of self-analyze but of course other

people do has there have you ever found their analysis to shed shed light on

something you haven't hadn't thought about in in your work or in this film

I always loved you know my favorite comments that I and I don't think it was

for this movie it was for another movie but I always loved it is Jay Hoberman

said something once he was comparing me with John Waters and he said about and I

did it wasn't a compliment and and and I don't even agree but I just love what he

said but maybe in some level I do but he said for John Waters all all that is

alien is human for Todd all that is human is alien something like that I

cuz I kind of cracked up about that and it wasn't even like so much of a dis but

you know I obviously that it is but I I understand the truth of that though I

will you know I you know I'm not gonna argue why would I argue you know that's

his opinion but I that was kind of nice to hear even if I don't quite subscribe

to it oh but what is your relationship to criticism film criticism formal film

criticism I mean look if people like the movie I'm happy and if they don't I'm

sad you know so you read it do you seek it it's hard to avoid it you read the

times or whatever every day and then you know you're gonna like avoid that page

you know you could I it's hard it's hard and so I have a weak moral fiber in that

sense you know because I am susceptible to you know people like it I feel a

little bit better they don't I feel a little bit worse but it's you know and

then you move on you know I'm only human what can I say yeah I was gonna ask you

about insecurities generally which I think in some sense we've covered

throughout the conversation but there was a moment on the set of wiener dog

that I remember you should say you were I was I was the walkie-talkie PA or were

you my assistant I I drove I drove you after I stopped driving actors well it

was driving it was really like there's certain times you just need to be alone

like you don't after you can't even talk to other people you know you were very

chatty in the car we do but I remember I yeah I learned a lot that summer you're

scaring me I don't know what there was there was one day I think it was the

vets at Long Island and I remember standing next to you and you felt or

expressed kind of uncertainty in that moment about about it all and I remember

saying because it was a very young crew or many many crew members were quite

young and they really did care that's something I do try to remember like they

cared about you and about the film and about their work on the film and I think

I said that and I'm not sure if it provided any solace in the moment or not

I'm sure it's I appreciate I mean I you feel it when you know you see people

that show that it's not just a job clocking in and out you know and that's

a lovely you know really heartening kind of experience to have people like that

around you it doesn't mean the movie's gonna work out doesn't mean no first

things you learn about filmmaking is there's no correlation you learn this in

film school I'm sure there's no correlation between how much work you

put into something and the actual success of the film yeah no that's what

because unlike you know you study history or a math or science you work

study hard you'd get an a but with film it's it's an art form so it's just it

doesn't matter how hard you work and sweat in the ends the movie may just not

care it's true and I think like of all the lessons that I learned from you and

in film school and on that set that moment is one that I think about often

because I think we're writing a solitary by nature but directing isn't and like I

said I do find a lot of fulfillment in the process but there's always a point

at which you feel staggeringly alone you know and and rarely do you have the

chance to stand next to another director in that moment and well you know you are

alone because everything hangs on your shoulders ultimately the movie comes out

and it plays somewhere it opens at a festival what have you and suddenly

everyone else vanishes yeah and it's all on your shoulders all credit all blame

whether or not you really had that idea or whether or not it wasn't your idea it

doesn't matter everything that's in that film is on you yeah okay and you you

some I think when you're newer at this I think you may forget or not realize how

true that is yeah you know well I don't know what did I respond I hope I was a

pleasant in my you were pleasant you were pleasant in your response but it's

just like a moment in time like I just I remember yeah I remember the feeling of

standing there and looking at everybody and I don't know I find some solace in

that well you're not alone in that sense amongst direct you know that you that

you're this sense of solitude of it all being on your shoulders and that really

and if people ask you questions you can't it's so complicated you can't

explain everything that's going on in here yeah and people may not understand

your reasoning and your reasoning may not be right but that's all you've got

to work with you know and yes you listen to suggestions and you dismiss or take

in or other people's thoughts and ideas but but you yourself in fact if you're

being truthful are just discovering what is this thing you don't know it's like a

hubris to think I know what it is now I mean but classically there are some

filmmakers who work that way look Hitchcock yeah you know had it all mapped

out in that way and and was not someone who took pleasure and like being on set

the social aspect you know so there are different it's not good bad it's just

different ways of yeah of working I was very glad to do this I yeah I think you

were the first person that ever read a script that I that I wrote and I

remember you said there's the seed of something here and that was really all I

needed well I mean I and the film I love that film and in certain ways I think it

really just speaks to who you are from immediately from that first second year

film yeah you know and where you're coming from and where your heart is and

and your sense of performance and mise en scene it was all there and one I can't

teach this stuff I can only try and help develop some confidence for you that's

go on keep keep at it keep at it because you've got the talent that that is worth

pursuing and developing I mean it's a testament to odd the possibility of

something good coming out of NYU um that you know for all of the kinds of

incompetence and corruption up above you know that that it still can make

possible something that I don't know that you would have no done had you not

had that structure no I don't think I would yeah I think I owe it a great deal

yeah you were a student there too I was I loved it I had so much fun I mean I

everything just came together for me there but at NYU that's where I

discovered that I could I felt I could speak through film yeah and that was the

discovery the confidence I needed yeah that you got from and why that's the

same thing I got and you put aside I mean I didn't spend a day there like

talking about a ripoff and a joke the program was but it made

possible for me to be to say yes this is something I can do

you give me hope you carry on you light up my days and feel my mind

my life you give me hope you carry on you light up my days and feel my mind